International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6362

1 Wednesday, 24 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Very good morning, everybody. May we hear the

6 case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. This is Case Number IT-97-24-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the same procedure as usual, appearances.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good morning, Your Honours. Nicholas Koumjian,

11 with Ruth Karper, for the Prosecution.

12 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Branko Lukic and John

13 Ostojic for the Defence.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Before we turn to today's witness,

15 when reading yesterday's and the day before's transcript, I suddenly was

16 aware that we indeed discussed the question of the source of the documents

17 presented by the Office of the Prosecutor, being the basis for the search

18 in the cell unit of Dr. Stakic. We discussed this issue in the 65 ter (i)

19 meeting, but it is not yet on the transcript. So therefore, I would

20 kindly ask the OTP to give the explanation where these documents were

21 found to the record, please.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, the documents, and for the record,

23 that document exhibit number, the eight pages, I'll give that in a

24 moment. Those pages were part of several items that were seized at the

25 time of the arrest of the accused. The accused, Dr. Stakic, was actually

Page 6363

1 arrested by the authorities of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. He was

2 turned over to representatives of the OTP. At the time that he was turned

3 over, his personal items that were in his possession were also turned

4 over. Photocopies were made of those personal items. One was a phone

5 book type of document, agenda type of document. They totalled 81 pages.

6 Among those 81 pages were the eight pages that are in S - maybe it's seven

7 pages - excuse me, eight pages in S220 to S226. One is a two-page

8 document.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this clarification to the record.

10 And --

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Perhaps I didn't also indicate that those eight

12 pages, I believe I said on the record before, but just to be clear, when

13 the items came to the Tribunal, the Office of the Prosecutor photocopied

14 the items, including the agenda book. That totalled the 81 pages. And

15 the items themselves were turned over to the Office of Legal Aid and

16 Defence, OLAD. I'm not sure what it stands for exactly. Legal Aid and

17 Detention, I believe. And then later I believe I stated for the record

18 that we found out the day of the seizure they indicated that they had

19 records that had been turned over to the accused.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Once again, thank you. Any observations by the

21 Defence as regards this matter?

22 MR. OSTOJIC: We do, Your Honour. Thank you, and good morning.

23 With respect to that, we think that there has to -- especially a criminal

24 proceeding such as this, there has to be at least some chain of custody

25 that would have to be established with respect to the OTP's contention,

Page 6364

1 (A), that the documents were returned to Dr. Stakic, and the chain of

2 custody from when the documents were actually seized from Dr. Stakic. To

3 this date, we have not been provided, nor do I believe there is in

4 existence, any written protocol for setting forth the proper procedure

5 once those documents are taken, to whom do they go, who is the individual

6 who takes custody of those documents, et cetera.

7 Our biggest concern in light of what transpired yesterday and the

8 day before is that there may be an improper and inappropriate inference

9 that would be drawn from those documents, since the Court has already

10 reviewed photocopies of those documents which I believe the OTP has

11 suggested would not be as beneficial, would not be beneficial to their

12 handwriting expert. That we'll see, obviously, once they make their

13 evaluation and opinions based on that.

14 Chain of command, as the panel knows and the Honourable Judges

15 know, is -- chain of custody is extremely important when we're dealing

16 with evidentiary matters such as evidence that was taken from a witness or

17 is directly related or alleged to be something that the witness personally

18 and arguably can expose them to any criminal action. Inferences drawn

19 from that, likewise, are very critical. So I would ask, and I hope to ask

20 later possibly in written form as well, that the exhibit not be permitted

21 into evidence, as I had yesterday, and also that any inferences would not

22 be drawn from those exhibits.

23 Again, we're speaking perhaps a little prematurely because we

24 don't know what the expert's opinion will be in

25 this regard. However, I think thus far it has been clearly established

Page 6365

1 that the chain of custody has not been one that can be accorded under any

2 criminal jurisdiction anywhere in the world where a person, once he's

3 incarcerated, the people from allegedly the former Federal Republic of

4 Yugoslavia, take the documents, to whom did they give those documents?

5 Then the procedure thereafter, once he was incarcerated and detained here

6 at the United Nations at the ICTY, at the Detention Unit, I'm troubled by

7 the fact that the OTP continues to insist, although only verbally, that

8 the documents were returned to Dr. Stakic.

9 There has been no evidence of that whatsoever. We've consulted

10 with our client on that matter. We would like to establish who actually

11 at the OLAD or any other unit of the OTP, including the OTP offices, who

12 actually sets that claim forth and what's the basis for that claim. And

13 I'm confident, if they did it properly within their procedures, that they

14 would have obtained a receipt from Dr. Stakic in connection with those

15 documents. Thank you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. First of all, until now, I think

17 none of the parties would say that we have to discuss something like the

18 fruit of poisoned tree doctrine to be applicable in this case. On the

19 other hand, I would appreciate if we could get some documentation when the

20 documents were taken from Dr. Stakic - maybe there is indeed a document

21 indicating what happened during the arrest - and on the other hand, when

22 the documents were transferred to the OLAD, and maybe within the OLAD,

23 there one can find the document how they were forwarded to Dr. Stakic. I

24 think it's in the interest of both parties to find these documents, if

25 possible.

Page 6366

1 On the other hand, we have to emphasise that we, in addition to

2 that, would feel more comfortable when we could find out about the reasons

3 why the search and seizure ordered by this Trial Chamber was not conducted

4 in a proper way and deviated from the order evidently conducted by

5 representatives of the United Nations Detention Unit. I think it's

6 necessary to find some clarification on this issue.

7 Having learned this lesson several times, I would appreciate this,

8 if this dispute could be settled before the Court recess.

9 You wanted to make any observations?

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: No, other than what we need apparently is -- all

11 that Your Honour is asking is in the possession of the OLAD unit, and I

12 guess they are under the Registrar. We will attempt to get that

13 information from them.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And about the conduct of the order?

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: Again, the Office of the Prosecution was not

16 present. We were contacting them at the time to arrange for an

17 investigator. I asked for an investigator to go there and to clarify how

18 exactly this search was going to be conducted. And then we found out it

19 had already been conducted.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we need some additional clarification in

21 writing for the documents in this case, how this was possible, and who

22 within the United Nations Detention Unit took the liberty to act

23 ex officio, because in this case, fortunately, there was no problem

24 emanating from this for Dr. Stakic. But it could have been the other way

25 around if it was conducted in this unprofessional way. Therefore, some

Page 6367

1 clarification is needed as a matter of principle. Thank you.

2 Today, we'll hear, first of all, the witness. The witness will be

3 cross-examined. Do you believe we come to Madam Tabeau today? What's

4 your impression?

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: My impression is yes. I think there's about a half

6 hour or so, 45 minutes, of direct examination remaining. It depends,

7 obviously, on the cross-examination.

8 Perhaps, Your Honour, to be honest, I think Ms. Tabeau is going to

9 be a very short witness. Mr. Inayat, who could testify at any time, but I

10 could call him because we don't have any other witnesses this week. I

11 basically have about two questions on direct. We have a list 6. He will

12 simply testify on direct that lists 4, 5, and 6, that the sourcing column

13 where the documents came from was prepared by him and is accurate, and

14 then we will turn him over for the cross-examination. I think that we

15 have time this week to have the people who know the answers to the

16 questions Your Honour just asked here, if you'd like, I can try to arrange

17 that for tomorrow.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be kind enough.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: We could put off Mr. Inayat also, if that's

20 convenient.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But I have the impression Mr. Inayat will be

22 cross-examined in depth by the Defence, if I understand it correctly.

23 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, we certainly would like the opportunity

24 to discuss with Mr. Inayat some of his procedures and processes that he

25 uses while being an investigator here with the OTP, particularly in

Page 6368

1 connection with this case. However, we do -- and we expect to proceed in

2 an accordingly expeditious fashion. However, the schedule has changed,

3 quite frankly, rather dramatically from what it was commencing last

4 Monday. We don't have a problem with the OTP presenting witnesses in such

5 a fashion; however, it is causing an undue burden on the Defence in order

6 to have scheduled these witnesses and to prepare an adequate defence.

7 Quite frankly, I'd like, if I may, with the Court's permission, to reserve

8 my right to cross-examine Mr. Inayat at a later time since he is readily

9 available at all times. And respectfully to the OTP, there may come an

10 occasion later in their case that there may be some vacancy that we could

11 fill his time with.

12 Similarly with respect to Miss Tabeau or Madam Tabeau, we received

13 her report today, quite frankly, this morning. We had received yesterday

14 transcripts on a case that she testified in, in another courtroom.

15 Actually, it was in this courtroom, just during a different session. We

16 did receive on Monday a report that apparently was not directly related to

17 the case before the Chamber. I am prepared to question Madam Tabeau on

18 some preliminary issues in connection with both the methodology, the

19 source material, the reliability, and some of her background as a

20 demographer in that regard. Perhaps that would be enough. It all depends

21 on the answers that I elicit from her.

22 But I just want the Court to be advised that we are being placed

23 in a position that is unnecessarily overly burdensome on the Defence, and

24 there's no need for that. We were supposed to, as the Court knows,

25 commence Monday morning's session initially with Mr. Mayhew, and we

Page 6369

1 started him last week and concluded him last week. And we were only

2 supposed to have two witnesses this week and two witnesses next week.

3 If I can ask the Court to have the OTP indulge us and to just

4 share with us or enlighten us on a little more accuracy with respect to

5 the witnesses, I can assure the Court we wouldn't ask for an extension

6 with respect to witnesses such as Mr. Inayat, but we'll proceed in

7 accordance with whichever manner the Court suggests to us. Thank you,

8 Your Honour.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: With all due respect, to a certain respect, I

10 can't understand this contribution because, first, Mr. Inayat was due

11 already two weeks ago and only for purposes -- for unforeseeable reasons,

12 we were not able to hear Mr. Inayat. It was already delayed for the

13 purpose that you, Mr. Ostojic, were present, on the request of Mr. Lukic

14 we delayed the hearing of Mr. Inayat. And therefore, we can expect that

15 you're prepared to cross-examine this witness due since a longer period of

16 time.

17 As regards Madam Tabeau, I'm fully aware that this witness was

18 heard but on totally different circumstances in another case, on

19 Sarajevo. And this document, the underlying document on the population

20 changes in Prijedor from 1991 to 1997, was provided to all of us, I think,

21 two or three weeks ago. So, therefore, there's nothing wrong with this to

22 hear this witness today.

23 Nevertheless, we have only four -- we have tomorrow and then four

24 days next week. I understand that on Thursday next week, there will be

25 the videoconference. Is this still true, that it's the 1st of August?

Page 6370

1 And the last information we got is to do this next week.

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think we confirmed that just yesterday or the day

3 before that it is the 1st of August.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: That would be Thursday. And we have -- I want

5 to recall, the entire day of Thursday, therefore nothing on Friday next

6 week, the morning session and afternoon session in Courtroom I.

7 Then there were some rumours in the corridors saying that there

8 would be the line-up somewhere next week. Is this correct? Is it

9 prepared?

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Well, the witness is scheduled for Monday. So

11 obviously the witness would have to -- the line-up would have to be at the

12 beginning of the testimony.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask carefully whether the parties have

14 agreed on an additional four persons to be presented for the line-up?

15 MR. OSTOJIC: We have not been provided with that information,

16 Your Honour. So there is no agreement in connection with that.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Therefore I want to ask the parties to come

18 together on this issue, that we don't have any surprise next Monday. I

19 think --

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I would just say for the record that

21 we would include anyone the Defence suggests, but we will give them the

22 people that have agreed that we have contacted. I don't know how to give

23 them to them. I can give them the names, and obviously they may or may

24 not have seen them before. They work in various parts of this building.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it's a matter to be resolved between the

Page 6371












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Page 6372

1 parties. And secondly, I recall that the Defence didn't agree with the

2 tableau in showing the photographs of other persons. It's already some

3 months ago we were presented with such a table, but apparently there were,

4 as regards two or three persons on this table, there were some problems.

5 And I would ask the parties also on this issue to confer and to come to

6 some solution; otherwise, it has to be resolved with the assistance of

7 this Trial Chamber this week.

8 Then we have, in conclusion, already covered two days of next

9 week. What else can we expect next week?

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think we have those two witnesses.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Only the two?

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, I think the one witness is expected to take

13 several days.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, I have it, but far away from me.

16 Any additional issues before we continue with the

17 examination-in-chief? I can't see any. The usher may bring in the

18 witness, please. Thank you.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Mr. Poljak, can you hear me?

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Mr. Poljak, you can hear me?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Then may I ask Mr. Koumjian to

25 proceed. Thank you.

Page 6373


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 Examined by Mr. Koumjian: [Continued]

4 Q. Good morning. Mr. Poljak, when we finished yesterday, you

5 indicated that you were in one room with your father for a month or a

6 month and-a-half. What room was that?

7 A. That was a room in the largest building in the camp.

8 Q. Okay. You said that your father was called out many times for

9 questioning, and beaten. And that one day, they called him out around

10 5.00. What happened when your father came back?

11 A. He came back at about midnight. Most of the people in the room

12 were sleeping. He sat down. He didn't say anything much. He was very

13 scared. You could tell that he was scared by the look of him. He was

14 sweating, but he didn't want to talk about it. He just said: "It's all

15 right. It's all right. It's swell. They didn't hit me. Please, don't

16 lose any sleep over me." And I kept asking him: "Where were you? What

17 did you do? What did they do?" He said it wasn't anything particularly

18 awful. They asked him about the shoe size he was wearing, the size of his

19 clothes, how tall exactly he was. And while they were there, Mr. Brk came

20 along. I knew him as Brk. I know that he used to be a taxi driver, and

21 apparently obviously he knew my father. They were, then, in the white

22 house. The building was referred to as "the white house." When he saw my

23 father, he told him: "Zijo, motherfucker, who in the world brought you

24 over here?" I don't know what my father answered, but then he ordered

25 that man to be returned immediately to the room where he had been

Page 6374

1 previously. And that's how they returned him to the room where he had been

2 before.

3 Q. What happened later that night?

4 A. They brought him there about midnight. He was scared and he

5 didn't talk much. He asked one of the people who were lying close to us

6 for a cigarette. I think he was given a cigarette, and he lit a

7 cigarette. I think someone brought something to drink. I can't remember

8 whether it was water or tea. Anyway, after about one hour later, it was

9 1.00 in the morning, someone came to the door and called his name out

10 again. I remember clearly that he stood up. He went to the door. He

11 turned, looked at me, he smiled, and went out.

12 Q. Did you ever see your father again?

13 A. No.

14 Q. From what you observed while you were in Omarska, did you see

15 other people taken out and not returned to rooms?

16 A. There were many people who being taken off to be questioned. They

17 would come back beaten badly. These interviews were mostly conducted

18 during the day, and many of the people who were taken off for questioning

19 at night never returned, and my father was among these people. He was

20 taken from the room where I was, as I've described. I think Jasko Hrnic,

21 Emir Karabasic, my neighbour, and my music teacher from elementary school,

22 Nihad Jakupovic. That's as many people as I can remember now. There were

23 more people than that, but it's just that now I can't remember. There

24 were lots of persons I didn't know, too.

25 Q. Did your other relatives that you've mentioned survive the Omarska

Page 6375

1 camp?

2 A. They are not around. They never returned. I can't really believe

3 that they would still be alive after ten years. They are just not there,

4 and their bodies were never found or identified. But once they were taken

5 from Omarska, they never returned, and nothing more was heard of them.

6 Q. Did you become aware in early August of a visit of foreign

7 journalists to the camp?

8 A. Some journalists came. I did not see them myself. That day when

9 they came, we had lunch in a hurry, my group. And at that time, I was

10 staying in the white house for two or three days. So when the journalists

11 came, we were in those rooms over there, unable to see anything.

12 Q. Did things change after the foreign journalists visited the camp?

13 A. After their first visit, no, nothing changed.

14 Q. Do you recall on the transfer of a large number of prisoners out

15 of the camp around the 7th of August?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. What happened that day?

18 A. There was some confusion. There were many guards. They went

19 around with lists. They called out names. They told people to go here

20 and there according to those lists they had. They transferred people from

21 one room to another, that sort of thing, but all based on the lists.

22 Q. Do you recall if they called out your father's name?

23 A. Yes, I remember clearly my father's name being called out. My

24 cousins, too, Sakib Poljak and Sabid Poljak. I remember that clearly. I

25 was glad in a way that they had been called out because that was a signal

Page 6376

1 for me that they were still alive.

2 Q. But you didn't see them again. Is that correct?

3 A. No, never again after the day they were taken off.

4 Q. So after they called out all these lists of names and transferred

5 people between rooms, what happened?

6 A. The day when they went around with those lists and read out names,

7 you mean?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. They used buses to take people away, most of the people. And late

10 in the afternoon, perhaps about 5.00 or 6.00, I can't tell exactly, but

11 all those people were driven out of the camp. Only the group in which I

12 was stayed inside the camp.

13 Q. Did you later learn where those people had been taken on the 7th

14 of August, the prisoners that were driven out?

15 A. We learned, I think from the Red Cross, that a huge group was

16 transferred to Manjaca and registered there by the Red Cross.

17 Q. Do you know if some of the prisoners were taken to Trnopolje?

18 A. Yes, Manjaca and Trnopolje.

19 Q. How many prisoners remained in the camp with you, approximately?

20 A. I think about 150.

21 Q. How did the Omarska camp change, if at all, from that day,

22 or the next day on?

23 A. Those of us who stayed, we were really scared. We thought they

24 had left us there to kill us. We all kept silent, more or less. We

25 remained seated outside one of those buildings for a long time, and then

Page 6377

1 late in the afternoon, they told us to go into a room, in which we then

2 stayed. And no one touched us. There was some sort of a trough, a

3 fountain. We could go out and drink water, use the toilet. They did not

4 maltreat us, but still we were very scared.

5 That same night, after midnight, I think it may have been around

6 2.00 or 3.00, early in the morning, you could hear lorries pulling over

7 outside the building. And we thought they would kill us at that point.

8 We were ordered to go out. Once we were out, they pulled the canvas of

9 the lorry up and we saw, inside the lorry, mattresses, beds with

10 mattresses. They told us to unload the mattresses and take them into the

11 room in which we were staying. Those were bunk beds with iron

12 frames. We did what they told us. We brought the beds into the room and

13 we arranged them. We put the mattresses on the beds. Each of us was

14 assigned a bed, and that was the first time in three months,

15 approximately, that I got to lie down on a normal bed.

16 Q. How long did you stay in the Omarska camp -- excuse me. Soon

17 after the beds arrived, did you receive a visit from a foreign

18 organisation?

19 A. Initially, journalists came. The Red Cross did visit after about

20 ten days, but I'm not sure now. I think we stayed for about 15 days after

21 those other people had been transferred to Manjaca and Trnopolje.

22 Q. Okay. And then just to be clear about, if I understand your

23 answer, between the time the beds arrived and your transfer to Manjaca,

24 foreign journalists and the International Red Cross visited the camp, is

25 that correct, the Omarska camp?

Page 6378

1 A. Yes. I remember that Bernard Kouchner also came.

2 Q. Bernard Kouchner?

3 A. Yes, Kouchner.

4 Q. Can you tell us, do you remember the date that you were

5 transferred to Omarska? If not, if you don't remember what the date was,

6 if you don't remember, that's fine, that you were transferred to Manjaca.

7 A. I can't remember the exact date.

8 Q. Do you remember what month it was?

9 A. It was August.

10 Q. When you got to the Manjaca camp -- well, first, how long did you

11 stay in the Manjaca camp?

12 A. Until December 1992. I can't remember the date, but it was late

13 December.

14 Q. In the Manjaca camp, did you see other prisoners from the

15 municipality of Prijedor?

16 A. Yes. There were many people from Prijedor Municipality there.

17 Q. Can you give us a very rough estimate of the percentage of the

18 prisoners in Manjaca when you got there in August that were from Prijedor?

19 A. I believe about half of them were from Prijedor Municipality.

20 Q. In December, where were you transferred?

21 A. For a long time, there was talk of deportation from Manjaca, first

22 to Croatia, and then to third countries. We were all convinced that we

23 would be transferred at some point. We were receiving regular visits by

24 the Red Cross, medical examinations. It was quite good as compared to

25 Omarska. I think at one time, they even arranged -- they set a specific

Page 6379

1 time when we were supposed to be transferred. But several days before

2 that, they called out about 150 of us. They put us on to buses and

3 transferred us to Bjeljina, Batkovici, without ever telling us that we

4 would be transferred there to Bjeljina, Batkovici. We didn't know where

5 we were going or what would happen to us.

6 Q. After being in Batkovici -- by the way, can you tell us, is that

7 in eastern Bosnia? Is that correct, northeastern Bosnia?

8 A. Yes, that's in northeastern Bosnia, some kilometres from

9 Bjeljina.

10 Q. How long did you remain there?

11 A. From December 1992 to the 9th of October, 1993.

12 Q. Were you then exchanged in October 1993?

13 A. Yes. That's when we were exchanged, near Turbet. It's a place

14 name.

15 Q. When you were in the Omarska camp, did you receive -- did someone

16 tell you or give you any paper saying that you were charged with a crime?

17 A. I was taken to be interrogated three times. And the third time I

18 was taken there, some sort of indictment was handed to me.

19 Q. Do you recall what it charged you with?

20 A. I remember it was something about armed rebellion, I think,

21 setting up Kozarac Municipality, something like that.

22 Q. Had you participated in any combat or any conflict, any fighting,

23 up to that point?

24 A. At what point?

25 Q. When they charged you with armed rebellion, had you been in any

Page 6380












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Page 6381

1 armed force? Had you fired a gun at anyone?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Were you a member of the Territorial Defence for Jakupovici?

4 A. No. I was not a member.

5 Q. Has your father or any of your other relatives that you saw in the

6 Omarska camp, have their bodies been exhumed, to your knowledge?

7 A. We have no information on that. We haven't learned anything about

8 their bodies.

9 Q. Aside from being given that one piece of paper, were you brought

10 to court or were you involved in any proceedings regarding this allegation

11 that you took part in an armed rebellion?

12 A. No. No court proceedings were ever initiated against me.

13 Q. Just a few more questions. Going back, you talked about when the

14 large number of people were surrendering in Kozarac, you said goodbye to

15 your mother and father and sister-in-law. Do you know from speaking to

16 your father in the camp what happened to your family at that point?

17 A. Yes, I talked to him about that. When they reached Kozarac, they

18 were separated, men from women. My father was put on to a bus with other

19 men and they were transferred to Omarska, while my mother, my

20 sister-in-law and her baby boy, were transferred to the Trnopolje camp.

21 They stayed in Trnopolje for a while. My mother had a sister who lived

22 quite close to the camp, so they allowed them to leave the camp, and they

23 went to her sister's house. And they stayed there for some time.

24 Q. Did your mother and sister-in-law, then, leave the territory

25 controlled by the SDS forces?

Page 6382

1 A. They were there for a while, a month or two. I can't remember.

2 But then they joined a convoy for Gracanica, I think, by train.

3 Q. Since the 1993, when you were -- have you been back to Prijedor?

4 A. No. I never went back to Bosnia since I got out in 1994.

5 Q. Has anyone given you any information about the status of your

6 family home and what has happened to that?

7 A. My brother went there last year, and some of our neighbours had

8 visited that area. That was even earlier. And we were given a number of

9 photographs taken of our house and some video footage.

10 Q. What does your house look like now?

11 A. There are just fragments of walls left standing. It's a ruin.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you, Mr. Poljak. No further questions.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The trial stays adjourned until 10.30.

14 --- Recess taken at 9.56 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 10.33 a.m.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

17 The floor is now for the Defence.

18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Poljak. My name is Branko Lukic,

21 and together with Mr. John Ostojic, I am Defence counsel for Mr. Stakic

22 before this Tribunal. I have a few questions for you. My examination

23 will not be as long as the examination by the Prosecution. I know that

24 it is difficult for you to testify about these events, but I ask you to

25 muster enough strength to answer a few questions put by the Defence.

Page 6383

1 Since we both speak the same language, although it's unnatural, please

2 make a short pause after my question so that the interpreters have time to

3 interpret what we are saying.

4 A. Very well.

5 Q. May we begin?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I will refer to some pages and lines in the transcript. This

8 should not confuse you. I am doing so only for the record.

9 Yesterday, on page 51 of the transcript, line 10 forward, you

10 explained that you stopped going to school.

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Are you aware of the fact that schools continued operating after

13 the takeover of power on the 30th of April?

14 A. I learned that later.

15 Q. Did you learn that most students got their certificates at the end

16 of the school year without any problems?

17 A. I don't know that.

18 Q. If you don't know, please say that. Feel free to say it. That's

19 an answer, too.

20 A. Thank you.

21 Q. On the following page of the transcript, you speak of a roadblock

22 that was set up in Jakupovici. And you say that a tank broke through that

23 barricade.

24 A. The tank passed through that place, broke through or passed

25 through.

Page 6384

1 Q. Can you assist us by telling us what the barricade was made of?

2 A. I don't know exactly, but I know there were some logs, I think.

3 Q. Do you remember when that barricade was set up?

4 A. I don't.

5 Q. Did you see that a trench had been dug next to the barricade?

6 A. No, I didn't.

7 Q. You made a statement to investigators of the Prosecution on the

8 11th of January, 1996. Do you remember signing that statement?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. LUKIC: [In English] I would like to ask the usher to just

11 present this document to the witness so he can recognise his signature,

12 please.


14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. On page 1 at the bottom, on page 2 at the bottom, page 3, page 4,

16 page 5, and on the last page, in the first half of the page, do you

17 recognise your signature?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. Besides the representatives of the Tribunal, did you give

20 statements to anybody else?

21 A. When I was released from camp, when I was exchanged, I don't know

22 how much time elapsed, but we gave a statement in Zenica.

23 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Your Honour, I would like the usher to

24 give to the witness one statement. And I don't know whether you have

25 these or not.

Page 6385

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: As usual, we don't have.

2 MR. LUKIC: Okay, Your Honours. I have copies for Your Honours as

3 well.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask, these documents were disclosed to you

5 by the OTP?

6 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask the OTP why we don't have these

8 documents?

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: They are not offered by the Prosecution. They are

10 not a statement taken by the Prosecution, nor were they used in our

11 examination of the witness.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Respectfully, we disagree with this approach.

13 As said earlier, this is not a pure common law system under our Rules of

14 Procedure and Evidence, and whenever there is an additional statement,

15 this Trial Chamber wants to be provided with this additional material for

16 better preparation.

17 And may I ask the Defence, is there a translation into English of

18 the document?

19 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. I'm sorry, I have ready translation

20 copies as well.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

22 MR. LUKIC: And the translation we also received from the OTP, so

23 for the registrar and Their Honours.

24 I apologise to His Honour Judge Fassi Fihri, but we have only this

25 English translation.

Page 6386

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please give us five minutes or so that we can

2 read it in advance.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Poljak, if you wish, you can also take the statement and read

5 it.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please proceed.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Poljak, you made this statement to a representative of the

9 Office of the Centre of the Institute for the Investigation of Crimes

10 against Humanity and International Law of the Republic of Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina, did you not?

12 A. I made this statement in Zenica, but what the organisation was

13 called, I can't remember. This is, however, my statement.

14 Q. Thank you. On that occasion, did you tell Enisa Poljak, a person

15 who has the same last name as you, the truth?

16 A. I did.

17 Q. In this statement you say, underneath the part entitled

18 "Statement," I quote: "At 14.10 hours on the 24th of May, 1992, in the

19 village of Jakupovici, Prijedor Municipality, at the barricades that we

20 had set up on the Banja Luka/Prijedor main road, the Yugoslav forces and

21 Serb forces attacked our village." Do you remember having said this?

22 A. Yes, I remember.

23 Q. So the barricade was on the main road linking Banja Luka and

24 Prijedor?

25 Would you repeat your reply because it has not been interpreted.

Page 6387

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You then go on to say: "Outnumbered and outgunned by the enemy,

3 we were not able to stop their forces from breaking into our village. My

4 neighbour, Jakupovic, also known as Jakupa, whose first name was Enis,

5 was killed. There were some wounded people, too. So we had to retreat

6 into the village in order to evacuate the civilian population to

7 Kozarac."

8 Do you remember having said this?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Do I understand this correctly, that from this checkpoint or

11 barricade, you also retreated?

12 A. When I was making this statement, I was talking about most people,

13 but the entire village was not at the barricade. It's just how it sounds

14 because of the words I used. I was relating what had happened in general

15 to all the inhabitants of the village.

16 Q. Can you tell us how many people participated in total, I mean all

17 who did shifts at this checkpoint or this barricade, if you know? How

18 many people from Jakupovici participated in guard duty, manning the

19 barricade?

20 A. The barricade? I don't know.

21 Q. May we agree, however, that all those who manned the barricade

22 were of Bosniak ethnicity, were they not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When you retreated from Jakupovici, you went in the direction of

25 Kozarac?

Page 6388

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Before the conflict in Jakupovici and Kozarac broke out, did you

3 ever go to Kozarac after the takeover of power on the 30th of April, 1992?

4 A. Did I --

5 Q. Did you go from Jakupovici to Kozarac between the 30th of April

6 and May, between the 30th of April and the 4th of May, 1992?

7 A. Maybe that day, but I can't remember for sure. On that day when

8 there was shooting, or perhaps the day before, we had a horse, a

9 horse-drawn cart. And my brother, he was married to a woman from Brdjani.

10 So we loaded some flour and oil and other staples, and my father told me

11 to take it to those relatives, those in-laws there, so that we would have

12 it there if we had to flee from our village.

13 Q. On that occasion, did you see armed men in Kozarac?

14 A. To go to Brdjani, you don't have to go through Kozarac. I took

15 the old road from Jakupovici via Babici, Kustici [phoen], Kamicani, and

16 Softici to Brdjani. So I did not go to Kozarac at all.

17 Q. When the conflict broke out and you arrived in Kozarac --

18 A. In Brdjani.

19 Q. In Brdjani. Did you enter Kozarac at all?

20 A. No, I didn't enter Kozarac at all.

21 Q. In Brdjani, did you see trenches that had been dug?

22 A. I didn't move around a lot, but I didn't see anything around the

23 house where I went.

24 Q. Thank you. On that occasion, or later on, did you learn that the

25 first vehicle in the column of military vehicles, a member of the JNA was

Page 6389












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6390

1 killed?

2 A. No, I didn't learn that.

3 Q. Before the conflict, was there one column moving in the direction

4 of Jakupovici, I mean a military column, or were there two? And can you

5 tell us from what direction they were coming? Were they coming from

6 Banja Luka or from Prijedor?

7 A. Are you referring to --

8 Q. Military vehicles.

9 A. I don't understand. I apologise, but I don't understand.

10 Q. My question is probably too vague. I will try to clarify.

11 A. All right.

12 Q. Do you know that a military column was moving in the direction of

13 Jakupovici, which is why a request was made that the barricade be removed

14 from the main road?

15 A. I heard a piece of news on Radio Prijedor at about 1.00 p.m. on

16 that day. I was sitting down at the table having lunch and listening to

17 the radio, and I heard this news item saying that unless the barricade was

18 removed, it would be removed by force or attacked, or something to that

19 effect.

20 Q. You do not know, then, from what direction the military column

21 came?

22 A. From where the attack was carried out?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. There was an attack. There was an attack, and it came from the

25 direction of Banja Luka.

Page 6391

1 Q. Thank you.

2 I will now ask you to concentrate on the point in time when you

3 separated from your parents. You said that you set out in the direction

4 of Kozara, that there were people all around, women, children, elderly

5 people. We are speaking of the time when a surrender was negotiated, the

6 surrender of the people from Kozarac. Were there a lot of people outside,

7 outdoors, on that occasion, in the streets, around the houses?

8 A. Yes, there were.

9 Q. Did the shooting stop then?

10 A. I think we could still hear the shooting. I'm not -- well, I

11 didn't think about it at the time. I was thinking about where I should

12 go, what I should do, how.

13 Q. Was there shelling?

14 A. Yes, I think so.

15 Q. Were you aware of the fact that a group of armed Muslims led by

16 Kemal Alagic, whose nickname was Divljak, carried out a counterattack on

17 Kozarac immediately before Kozarac was taken by Serb forces?

18 A. No, I was not aware of that. Even the name, I've never heard the

19 name before.

20 Q. Among the people who retreated in the direction of Kozara with

21 you, have you ever heard any reference to a group known as "Kola's group"?

22 A. I did hear about Kola's group, but I don't think those people were

23 with us.

24 Q. Were members of Ramiz's group among you?

25 A. Please excuse me, but my sister-in-law's brother and I were alone,

Page 6392

1 we set out alone. And then we spent the nights in the woods there, and in

2 the morning when we woke up, there were many people there. This was not a

3 group --

4 Q. I apologise if the question was not sufficiently clear. I did not

5 infer for a moment that you, yourself, were a member of either Kola's or

6 Ramiz's group. I am merely asking you whether there was any reference at

7 the time to any members of those two groups being among you.

8 Can you please repeat the answer?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Was there among you, perhaps, Mr. Becir Medunjanin?

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The witness has already said that he was alone

12 together with the sister. This is extremely clear.

13 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. [Interpretation] Can you please tell us, to the best of your

15 knowledge, how many checkpoints there were in Jakupovici?

16 A. I only know of the barricade on the main road.

17 Q. Those people who went with you in the direction of Kozara, you say

18 that some of them were armed and some were even wearing camouflage

19 uniform. Did they bring those weapons with them from Kozarac, from

20 Brdjani?

21 A. How in the world should I know where they took those weapons?

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Just one moment, Your Honours.

24 [Defence counsel and the accused confer]

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 6393

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Poljak. The Defence has no further questions for

2 you at this point.

3 A. Thank you.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Judge Fassi Fihri, any questions? No questions

5 in re-examination?

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just to clarify one point.

7 Re-examined by Mr. Koumjian:

8 Q. You said that the attack you learned came on Jakupovici came from

9 the direction of Banja Luka, as I understood it. Can you explain that?

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Perhaps if we had S51, the map, brought -- put on

11 the ELMO.

12 Q. Can you show us on that map where the barricade was, and from what

13 you learned, what direction the attack came, the tank that attacked.

14 A. The barricade was perhaps here. I can't see here -- I think this

15 is the road linking Jakupovici and Kevljani. The barricade was here

16 somewhere and the attack was carried out from the direction of Banja Luka,

17 this road here.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: So just for the record, the witness indicated the

20 red line just above the dot marked "D. Jakupovici" and indicated on the

21 map that the attack came from the right, the area marked "Banja Luka."

22 No further questions.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But then for clarification purposes, is it the

24 intention of the Defence to tender the presented documents as evidence?

25 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Your Honour, I think that we have on the

Page 6394

1 transcript everything that is needed, and the witness confirmed his

2 statement. So it's not our intention.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No. Just for clarification, that never

4 reference can be made, especially to the second part of this document,

5 later on because in case you should have questions as regards the two last

6 sentences of this statement given there, you have to do it now because we

7 can't summon the witness once again for these purposes, and no inferences

8 may be drawn from these two sentences.

9 MR. LUKIC: We don't have that intention, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. On the basis of this contribution,

11 any further remarks by the OTP?

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: No, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then for the record, these documents are not

14 tendered, and therefore not admitted into evidence.

15 We have to thank you for coming, and not only for coming, also for

16 giving your testimony under these very difficult circumstances for you.

17 We all know how difficult it is for you to recall these events at that

18 time. And we just can say thank you for coming and giving evidence.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The witness is excused.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, would it possible to have 10 or 15

23 minutes to set up for the next witness. I asked her to bring some

24 graphics with her, and also there's some exhibits which have not yet

25 arrived which I plan to use with her. Just for the Court's information,

Page 6395

1 those were 65 ter numbers 4 -- number 7, number 412, and number 436. I

2 believe the witness is, I believe, in the witness room. We could start

3 but I would prefer 10 minutes to just go over with her how we're going to

4 present the graphics and get the exhibits down here.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for giving us these exhibit numbers in

6 due time. And we'll take the opportunity and find these documents also

7 for our preparation. The trial stays adjourned for the next 20 minutes.

8 This brings us to, say, 11.30.

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just for everyone's information, I asked that

10 copies be brought down for everyone, so if you don't have those with you,

11 those 65 ters, they will be here in a few minutes.

12 --- Break taken at 11.11 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

15 We can expect as to the fact that we can read the documents a

16 short representation or presentation.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think -- I would estimate the direct examination

18 will be about a half hour, just to remind the Court, I believe I stated

19 this before in Court, Ms. Tabeau is in the process of updating the report

20 that Your Honours have that was prepared for the Keraterm case,

21 specifically regarding the numbers and characteristics of those who went

22 missing or are known to have been killed in the Prijedor Municipality in

23 1992. And that will not be ready until after the break, at least, it may

24 be disclosed before the break or during the break but she will not be

25 prepared to testify on that until after the summer break. But in this

Page 6396

1 report, she also talks about demographic changes in the municipality, and

2 that would be the subject of her testimony today, simply the demographic

3 changes in the municipality, and it's really beginning -- it would be the

4 figures 1, table 2 on page 7 of the English version of the report, figures

5 1, table 2, figure 2, table 3, and figure 3 of those statistical results.

6 The documents, the 65 ter documents, are the census for Bosnia,

7 the 1991 census. That's 65 ter number 7. 65 ter number 412 is an article

8 that appeared in Kozarski Vjesnik in 1993 regarding a census conducted in

9 Prijedor. And the final one, which is 436, 436 is a census or information

10 on the number and ethnic structure of the population in the various

11 municipalities in the area of the Banja Luka state security department.

12 This was dated 1995, was part of the seizures from Banja Luka.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this. This morning, I forgot one

14 issue. Of course, it's also for this case of high relevance whether or

15 not the case Prosecutor versus Mr. Mrdja can really be heard during a

16 break of this case. And I would ask you to inform us as soon as possible

17 on the development in this case. You may remember I requested the parties

18 in that case to give us in writing whether or not they are prepared to

19 start the case the 1st of October until Wednesday next week, which of

20 course is the ultimate possible day. In case there should be a problem,

21 then we should stop one hour earlier with this case one or other day next

22 week, in order to have an additional status conference in the other case

23 that we know where we are and we can prepare the necessary documents or

24 not by the end of next week.

25 MR. KOUMJIAN: I can give Your Honour the information I have right

Page 6397

1 now. I've talked to the higher ups in my office. It's simply a matter of

2 finding personnel to conduct the necessary searches for Rule 68 and the

3 discovery. They have told me that they will find someone to do that. It

4 hasn't been assigned yet, but I think the answer that we will have is yes,

5 we will be ready by the 1st of October. We will have all of the

6 disclosures done in time and the Rule 68 done in time.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So please, also contact the Defence counsel that

8 we know what's going on. And I think it's only fair that the Defence

9 knows in advance, if possible already before the Court recess, what's

10 going on in September and October.

11 Thank you for this. And the usher may bring in Madam Tabeau.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning, Madam Tabeau. You can hear me?

14 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May we please hear your solemn declaration.

16 THE WITNESS: English, please. Thank you.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please, the solemn declaration.

18 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

19 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. You may be seated. And the Office

21 of the Prosecutor may start the examination.


23 Examined by Mr. Koumjian:

24 Q. Ms. Tabeau, can you please tell us, who are you employed by at the

25 present time?

Page 6398












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6399

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: Sorry.

3 Q. Ms. Tabeau, I'll repeat my question. But before I do, let me

4 remind you that our conversation, although taking place in English, will

5 be translated into French and B/C/S so we both need to speak slowly and

6 pause between the question and the answer.

7 Can you tell the Court, who are you employed by at the present

8 time?

9 A. I'm employed by the Office of the Prosecutor. I am a demographer

10 there.

11 Q. How long have you worked for the Office of the Prosecutor?

12 A. I have been working approximately two years now. Since September

13 2000.

14 Q. And what specifically are your duties with the Office of the

15 Prosecutor?

16 A. My responsibilities include estimating demographic consequences of

17 the conflict in the Former Yugoslavia, in particular, in Bosnia and

18 Herzegovina. When doing this, I work with a group of other colleagues.

19 Q. Can you tell the Court where you received your university

20 education and in what field?

21 A. I graduated in statistics and econometrics, obtaining a master's

22 degree in statistics and econometrics from the Warsaw School of Economics,

23 which is the major economic university in Poland, in Warsaw. I originally

24 come from Poland. Shortly afterwards, I started to work at the university

25 as an academic teacher. I taught statistics and elements of demography to

Page 6400

1 undergraduate courses at the Warsaw School of Economics. And also worked

2 at that time on a Ph.D. project that I completed successfully eight years

3 later and obtained a Ph.D. degree in mathematical demography. My field of

4 discipline of my Ph.D. is mortality.

5 Q. So Dr. Tabeau, is it correct that you received your Ph.D. then

6 from Warsaw University?

7 A. Yes, it is correct, it is Warsaw School of Economics, Warsaw

8 University, yes.

9 Q. Can you tell us -- you're testifying in English. Are you

10 conversant in any other languages?

11 A. I speak, of course, Polish. This is my native tongue. I speak

12 Russian, German and Dutch, and English is just one of these languages.

13 Since 1991, I have been here in the Netherlands. I arrived here to work

14 on a project with Dutch demographers in the Dutch National Demographic

15 Institute. I stayed there ten years approximately working, again, in the

16 field of mortality. I was responsible then in that institute for

17 mortality projections that I made for many European countries, the

18 Netherlands and other countries of the European union, Spain, France,

19 United Kingdom, Norway, many, many countries. And I also worked on

20 projects about demographic aspects of the situation in Poland, for

21 instance, Czech Republic. So I have knowledged or demography, say, more

22 specifically of mortality issues in different types of countries, western

23 and non-western countries, European countries.

24 Q. Okay. You skipped ahead a little bit from my question, but going

25 back to it for a moment, I'm going to talk about the languages. You did

Page 6401

1 answer the languages that you are conversant in. But, specifically, you

2 mentioned Russian. Are you able to read Cyrillic?

3 A. Yes, I am able to read Cyrillic, yes.

4 Q. And from your knowledge of Polish and Russian, do you have any

5 ability to work at all in B/C/S?

6 A. I know a little bit B/C/S as well. I followed a course of B/C/S

7 here at the Tribunal, but it is the same group of languages, Slavic

8 languages, so I can understand to a certain extent. I am not fluent, no

9 way, in B/C/S.

10 Q. You talked about your work experience, and I just want to make

11 sure we haven't missed anything. After getting your Ph.D., did you go

12 directly to Holland? What did you do after receiving your Ph.D. from the

13 Warsaw University?

14 A. I came directly to Holland. It was in 1991 that I received my

15 Ph.D., and directly afterwards, I came here. And first was invited to

16 work an a three-year project that later continued in the form of new

17 projects in the same institute, Dutch National Demographic Institute. So

18 it all together took approximately ten years that I worked there.

19 Q. Thank you. Please pause -- allow a short pause before you answer

20 so that the interpreters can catch up.

21 In that Dutch National Demographic Institute, you said you worked

22 on mortality. And is it correct you worked on mortality in other European

23 countries? How wide was the area of countries that you worked on? Did it

24 include only western countries or what countries were included?

25 A. I worked on western countries, but occasionally also on Eastern

Page 6402

1 European and central European countries like Poland, for instance, Czech

2 Republic, Hungary. These are the same group of countries -- it is a

3 comparable group of countries to, I think, the Former Yugoslavia.

4 Demographics in these countries show similar patterns.

5 Q. Thank you, Doctor.

6 Going now to the report that you prepared, or excuse me, the

7 report that I have in front of me entitled "Population Changes in Prijedor

8 from 1991 to 1997" by Helge Brunborg, Torkild Lyngstad - excuse my

9 pronunciation - and Ewa Tabeau, dated the 19th of April, 2001, research

10 report prepared for the case of the Keraterm camp IT-95-8, is it correct

11 that, as dated, that this report was prepared in April of 2001, finalised?

12 A. The report was finalised by that time, but the project resulting

13 in this report started much earlier, approximately 1998. It was

14 Helge Brunborg, the demographer previously employed at the Office of the

15 Prosecutor, who started this project. And I arrived in September 2000,

16 joined Torkild Lyngstad, who was assistant, demographic assistant at the

17 time, and we finished this project by writing this report.

18 Q. Is it correct that this report discusses changes in the population

19 and the ethnic percentages in Prijedor from before the conflict and after

20 the conflict, but then also discusses the number of persons missing or

21 killed in the municipality and the characteristics of that group of

22 persons? Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, it is correct.

24 Q. As far as the data that has become available to you regarding the

25 missing and dead since this report was finalised, has additional

Page 6403

1 information become available to the demographic unit of the OTP?

2 A. Yes. We acquired new sources, extensive sources, and received,

3 for instance, a more recent version of the list of missing persons, ICRC

4 list of missing persons. So the sources that we have now at our disposal

5 are much more extensive and much more reliable.

6 Q. Have there been exhumations since this report was prepared, and

7 the data of those exhumations, has that become available to you between

8 then and the present time?

9 A. Yes, we received new information from the exhumation projects.

10 Q. Have you also received access to a database regarding declarations

11 of death in the Bosnian courts since this report was prepared?

12 A. Yes, we also received access to these databases.

13 Q. Given this new information, is it correct that you have been asked

14 by myself to update the portions of this report regarding the total number

15 killed and missing and the characteristics of that group, and that that

16 report is in progress?

17 A. Yes, this is correct.

18 Q. Today, we simply want to discuss, then, the data that -- regarding

19 the changes in the population, pre and post conflict and the ethnic

20 composition of the municipality of Prijedor.

21 Doctor, going to your report, is it correct that data that you

22 used in your report include censuses conducted in the Former Yugoslavia in

23 1971, 1981, and 1991?

24 A. Yes, it is correct.

25 Q. Can you explain what information you have about those censuses and

Page 6404

1 your professional judgement regarding the reliability of the data that was

2 collected?

3 A. The population census is the most complete and reliable source of

4 information about the population, about demographic aspects of the

5 population, and also many other aspects, economic aspects, for instance.

6 The censuses you mentioned and also all the censuses that are discussed in

7 the report were all conducted by the authorities, statistical authorities,

8 of the Former Yugoslavia who, as is the practice in all other countries,

9 certainly followed, to a large degree, international guidelines regarding

10 the way the census should be conducted.

11 As far as my knowledge is considered, I know more about the

12 population census from 1991 than about other censuses. But taking this

13 census as an example, I can say that this is a census that is certainly in

14 line with international guidelines and practice of other countries. I

15 myself participated as an interviewer during my university education in

16 one of the population censuses in Poland, so I know exactly how the

17 practical part of the census looks like.

18 And from the documentation I have about the census, 1991 census,

19 for the Former Yugoslavia, Bosnia and Herzegovina in particular, I can see

20 that all necessary requirements have been fulfilled, necessary

21 instructions had been returned and provided to people conducting the

22 census. The questionnaire is just a standard questionnaire. Questions

23 are explained in a very exhaustive and specific way in the instructions.

24 So from this point of view, I must say that the preparation of the census,

25 the census questionnaire, and I believe the way the census was conducted,

Page 6405

1 all these satisfies the requirements in such cases.

2 Q. Thank you. I'm going to ask you in a moment to describe how it

3 was actually conducted in your knowledge. But perhaps preceding that, we

4 need to explain, is there something called a - forgive my pronunciation -

5 maticni broj in the former Yugoslavia?

6 A. Maticni broj is a personal identification number that was

7 introduced in the Former Yugoslavia in the early 1980s. And since then,

8 it has been in use also in population censuses. It was also used in the

9 latest census, 1991 census. It is a unique identification number issued

10 to every citizen of the country that is reported on that census

11 questionnaire and can be used later to identify persons.

12 Q. Can you explain how that number is constructed and whether it

13 contains any information about the individual?

14 A. This is a long number consisting of several digits. Part of this

15 number is information about the date of birth of a particular individual

16 and the municipality, as far as I remember, of birth. Coded, of course,

17 it is not the name that is included in the number. So also some digits

18 are reserved to code the sex of the person and the general region the

19 person was resident of at the moment the number was issued, given to the

20 person. It is just a combination of certain strings of characters that

21 inform in a coded way about who is this person.

22 Q. Does that fact that this number includes information about the

23 date or, at least, year of birth of the individual, their area of

24 residence and sex, is that useful to you in your demographic work in

25 matching individuals and different times periods?

Page 6406

1 A. The date of birth is complete. It is not year, but also day and

2 month. It is extremely important that we have this information included

3 in maticni broj. While matching records from the census to other sources,

4 we can compare the strings that we understand the meaning of, and

5 perfectly -- be perfectly clear about whether records are the same or not

6 in the different sources. Yes, it is essential.

7 Q. Now, can you explain to us exactly how in practice the census was

8 conducted. Was something mailed to households? How was the census of

9 1991 conducted, as far as you are aware?

10 A. The census, as far as I know, was conducted by interviewers who

11 visited every household in the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I'm

12 speaking now about Bosnia and Herzegovina, but I believe it was the same

13 for the whole country for the Former Yugoslavia. The interviewers

14 questioned households. Households were represented usually by head of

15 households who was giving answers regarding every member of the

16 household. It was a direct interview. This was the method. And the

17 census, of course, took some time, say, approximately one month. It is a

18 very huge survey, population census. Knowing that the population at that

19 time, 1991, was approximately 4.4 million individuals, it is

20 understandable that the census cannot be completed within one day. It

21 takes some time. But in official statistics, there is one date taken as

22 the moment of that census. I think it's the last day of March in this

23 case, as far as I remember.

24 Q. Thank you. What kind of information about the individuals

25 residing in the household was obtained?

Page 6407












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6408

1 A. Census questionnaire is a very complex questionnaire. It consists

2 of several pages. Part of this information are personal details about

3 individuals: Names, place of birth, date of birth, of course. In fact,

4 we have questions about education of persons, professional activity,

5 occupation. We have questions about many, many other aspects, including

6 ownership of certain property types and tools, et cetera, et cetera. This

7 is a very complex questionnaire. For us, the part including personal

8 details and socioeconomic information about individuals was most

9 essential.

10 Q. In the census, were individuals asked or given an opportunity or

11 asked to identify their ethnicity, and if so, in the 1991 census, can you

12 tell us what the categories were, how the ethnicity was recorded?

13 A. Ethnicity and religion were included in the census. Ethnicity is

14 always in these type of surveys an open question, so there are no

15 suggested responses. And every individual is free to report what he or

16 she thinks he is. So people identify themselves by giving answers that

17 they belong to one ethnic group. That was the case, of course, in the

18 1991 census.

19 Q. When the data was collected, were those ethnicities put into

20 groups?

21 A. The original responses were just individual responses. Any

22 ethnicity could be reported, and many were reported: Muslim ethnicity,

23 Serb, Croat, Montenegro, Hungarian, Norwegian and Polish. So ethnicity

24 and nationality sometimes were given as possible answers.

25 For our work, it is not very informative to work with a very large

Page 6409

1 list of items informing about ethnicities. In that census, it is

2 necessary to group the items in a certain way, in a way that would make it

3 possible for us to summarise the information about the ethnic composition

4 of the population.

5 Q. Okay.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honours, I have 65 ter Exhibit Number 7. I'd

7 like to proffer that as an exhibit and have it be given the next number.

8 THE REGISTRAR: It will be S227, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objections?

10 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Your Honour.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Perhaps one could be given to the witness, also.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence as S227.


14 Q. Doctor, showing you S227, can you tell us what this is?

15 A. Well, this is a list. The first column includes the names of

16 municipalities starting from the left, and then we have the geographic

17 area in square kilometres. Then we have the number of the population,

18 total, I believe. And then numbers of the population for ethnic groups,

19 starting with Croats, then Muslims, Serbs, Yugoslavs, and others. And the

20 table is continued. There are two parts of this table. In the second

21 part, we see the same headings.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, another piece of paper is being handed

23 out. I thought it was a translation, but on closer examination I see it's

24 not. I'm just checking to see. Apparently, it's supposed to be a

25 translation, although I see that the square metres of the municipality is

Page 6410

1 not included in the translation.

2 THE WITNESS: No, it is in B/C/S.

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: And I think that the municipalities are listed in

4 different order. I do not believe this is a translation. It's obviously

5 not.

6 Q. Going to S227, the one that's in B/C/S --

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Having a look on this document in B/C/S as from

8 1991, unfortunately, especially when it comes to Prijedor, one can't read

9 the last column. Probably we can be provided with a better photocopy

10 later.


12 Q. Just for the record, on S227, is it correct that Prijedor is

13 listed just above the midpoint of the page? It's a very bad copy, very

14 small print. In addition to the 1991 census, you had access to the 1971

15 and 1981 censuses. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes, it is correct. We had access to certain publications

17 reporting summary statistics from the censuses.

18 Q. These results were published by the federal authorities in

19 Yugoslavia. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Regarding Prijedor, did you prepare in your report on page 7 of

22 the English version -- I'd like now to talk about particularly table 2.

23 And do you have a copy of that to put on the ELMO?

24 Okay. In the page in front of us, we have both figure 1 and table

25 2. I'd like to first talk to you about table number 2 so perhaps we could

Page 6411

1 focus in on that, the lower half of the page. And that's also in the

2 report, so we can follow along.

3 Is it correct that in Prijedor, according to the 1971 and 1981

4 censuses, let me ask you, according to these censuses, which ethnic group

5 had the plurality within the municipality of Prijedor in 1971 and 1981?

6 A. It is perhaps not necessarily clear from this table, but next

7 table which shows percentages, I'm speaking about table number 3. But

8 table number 2 and table number 3 are related to each other. So in this

9 table, number 2, we see absolute numbers of the population total and for

10 each ethnic group. It is shown here that for 1971, the largest ethnic

11 group were Serbs, with 46.487 individuals. Next year, 1981, the situation

12 is similar, the Serbian population is the largest one, 45.279.

13 The question was about these two years, I believe.

14 Q. Yes. Thank you.

15 Perhaps you can explain or talk about one matter we notice from

16 this table, the difference between 1971, 1981, and 1991 censuses. Is it

17 correct that the Serb population was actually the lowest according to the

18 1981 census?

19 A. The lowest --

20 Q. I'm sorry, that the population in absolute numbers between these

21 three censuses, the lowest was in 1981, and also that we see that the

22 Croat population declined by about 1600, 1500, between 1971 and 1981,

23 according to the 1981 census classifications. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes, this is correct. This must be explained by the way people

25 reported themselves as ethnic groups in the censuses. So the answer to

Page 6412

1 this question about ethnicity is very much related to the way people feel,

2 which is very much related further to political, for instance, situation,

3 how safe people feel in their own country. And we know examples from the

4 Former Yugoslavia that when political situation was more unstable, more

5 people reported themselves as Yugoslavs, just generally as Yugoslavs, and

6 less people reported themselves specifically as Serbs or Muslim or

7 Croats. So this issue, ethnicity, self-reported ethnicity, is very

8 sensitive to the situation in the country.

9 Q. Is it correct that in the 1981 census, we see a large increase in

10 the percentage grouped under the "other" category in this table?

11 A. Yes, this is very correct. The "other" category includes

12 Yugoslavs. This is the major component of this group. So this is a

13 confirmation of what I already said.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, in addition to the three censuses, did you

15 attempt to make some comparison between the population before the

16 conflict, which took place -- began in 1992, and after the conflict?

17 A. Yes. We compared information from the latest census, 1991 census,

18 with some other sources. Three sources were used. We used surveys from

19 1993 and 1995 conducted by Serb authorities, and we also used information

20 from the voters' register which was used and prepared in 1997. These

21 three sources, additional sources, together with that census, give a good

22 starting point to compare the changes in the ethnic composition of the

23 population 1991, 1993, 1995, and 1997. We can see how the groups,

24 factions of persons identifying themselves as Serbs, Croats, Muslims,

25 changed in these four years.

Page 6413

1 Q. I'm sorry, before I go on to that, I forgot to make one last point

2 I was leading up to earlier. In the 1991 -- you talked about in the 1971

3 and 1981, the large -- the group with the largest numbers in Prijedor

4 Municipality identified themselves as Serbs. In the 1991 census, is it

5 correct that for the first time the largest group was Muslim?

6 A. Yes, this is correct. We see that in table 2, the number of

7 Muslims reported is 49.351, 49.000, of course. It is the largest since

8 1971 and also the largest among the ethnic groups reported in the census,

9 1991 census.

10 Q. Now, you talked about three sources that you used to compare the

11 population during and post-conflict to pre-conflict. Is it correct, I

12 gather, then from your remarks that no census has been conducted in Bosnia

13 since 1991?

14 A. No, it's still no. The surveys I mentioned, even though they were

15 culled by several other authorities, especially in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

16 "population censuses" were not population censuses like the census from

17 1991 or previous censuses. I see them as certain type of surveys in which

18 population was counted by a group of people, approximately counted. But

19 definitely it was not a census, 1993, 1995, not a questionnaire-based

20 census.

21 Q. The three sources that you used, I'd like to move backwards in

22 time, start from closest. You mentioned the 1997 voter registration

23 information. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber what information you

24 obtained from that and how it was gathered?

25 A. The voters' register for the 1997 election was prepared by OSC,

Page 6414

1 Organisation for Security and Economic Cooperation in Europe, which was

2 responsible for successful completion and preparation of this election.

3 In order to make it possible for voters to vote, they prepared a

4 register. Register was based on the lists of the population enumerated in

5 the 1991 census. So everyone who lived in the area of Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina and was enumerated in 1991 census was placed on these lists.

7 People eligible to vote who were at the time of election 18 years of age

8 or older could register and then later vote.

9 Information collected or included by OSCE in their voters'

10 register was consisting of personal information, included names, father's

11 name, date of birth of persons, place of birth, and also municipality of

12 registration and municipality the person wanted to vote for. Municipality

13 of registration is very specific information, in our view, about the place

14 the people who registered to vote resided, say, generally speaking, at the

15 time of election. And we used this variable, municipality of

16 registration, as an item, location item, for people in the year 1997.

17 Q. Just to clarify, to use a concrete example, assume that we have an

18 individual who was from Prijedor in -- who in 1991 was counted in the

19 census as being a resident of the Prijedor Municipality and in 1997 was

20 living in Sanski Most but wished to vote in Prijedor, how would that

21 person's data be recorded?

22 A. Well, the person didn't have to go to Prijedor to vote for

23 Prijedor. So it was possible for the person to vote in Sanski Most, at

24 the place where he stayed at the time of the 1997 election. So the person

25 could register in Sanski Most and still vote for Prijedor from Sanski

Page 6415

1 Most.

2 Q. And would it be correct that the data that's available to you

3 would show that that person had registered to vote in Sanski Most, which

4 is part of the federation?

5 A. Yes, yes, yes.

6 Q. Did the voter registration information also allow you, the data

7 that you had available from that, allow you to match those individuals

8 with the 1991 census?

9 A. The voters' register also includes maticni broj, personal

10 identification number, and this item can be easily used in matching the

11 two sources, census and the voters' register. The maticni Broj was

12 available for a very large portion of the population of registered voters,

13 not for every one of them but more than 80 per cent, I think 87 per cent,

14 if I'm correct, of voters had this number included in the voters'

15 register. So this simply implies, when matching, we are able to find the

16 same person in the two sources.

17 Q. Is it correct that the only persons eligible to vote in 1997 would

18 have been those 18 years of age or older?

19 A. Yes, it is always the case, 18 years or older.

20 Q. Would it be correct, then, that you could only compare individuals

21 who were 18 years or over in 1997? So that person would have been, let's

22 say, 12 years old in 1991. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, it is possible for us to look only at this particular group

24 of people, not to look at the whole population in 1991 but just to select

25 the same group of people and look at the changes in the ethnic composition

Page 6416












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6417

1 in 1991/1997.

2 Q. Would it be correct, just to explain the limitation, if there was

3 a child of 8 years old in 1991, that person would have been only about 14

4 in 1997 and would not show up in the 1997 data? Is that correct?

5 A. Yes, this is correct, and we can also include this person from the

6 same group for 1991.

7 Q. You mentioned two other sources that you used in this report. One

8 was from 1995, and I believe that is 65 ter number 4 -- I said it earlier.

9 436. And we have both the English and the B/C/S. If those could be

10 distributed.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: May these be given the appropriate numbers.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: S228 A and B respectively. Objections? I can

13 see no objections. Therefore, admitted into evidence.


15 Q. So looking at item number 228, is it correct that this --

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry, is it safeguarded that also Dr. Stakic

17 has this document in B/C/S?

18 MR. OSTOJIC: If my learned friend would be kind enough just to

19 identify the document, the 65 ter number documents that were provided to

20 us today do not bear the 65 ter number that he is referencing. So perhaps

21 for ease of reference, he can identify the document.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, and please provide also Dr. Stakic with one

23 copy.

24 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, it's the ERN number B0031169. And there's an

25 additional B/C/S version for Dr. Stakic.

Page 6418

1 Q. Going, Doctor, to this document S228, B for the B/C/S version and

2 A for the English, and the B/C/S has the ERN number "B" as in "boy"

3 0031169, and the English, 00930351. Is it correct this is a report that

4 bears the title that it's from the Republika Srpska Ministry of Internal

5 Affairs, Centre for State Security Department, Banja Luka. And it's

6 labelled "strictly confidential."

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But not for our purposes. For the registry,

8 it's an open document for our case.


10 Q. As seized: It is labelled "strictly confidential" and entitled

11 "Overview of data on the number and ethnic structure of population

12 according to municipalities in the area of the Banja Luka state security

13 department for 1991 and 1995." Is this the report that you refer to and

14 the data that you include in your tables from your report of 1995?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And is it correct that Prijedor is the ninth municipality which

17 has the number 9, page 6 in the English?

18 A. Yes, it is correct.

19 Q. Yes. And page 5 in the B/C/S.

20 You also mentioned that a source from 1993, and I would ask now to

21 have distributed 65 ter number 412, the English and B/C/S versions, 412. I

22 don't know if it has been distributed yet.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: S229. Objections? I can see no -- still

24 hesitant.

25 MR. OSTOJIC: It's not a question of hesitant. If it's the next

Page 6419

1 document, I think the OTP has said he is not sure if he has provided us

2 with that. Is the Court asking us specifically --

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: It's 65 ter number 412. I just wasn't sure if it

4 had been distributed yet. And now it is being distributed. You have it.

5 MR. OSTOJIC: We have no objection, Your Honour. If counsel would

6 just be kind enough, since the documents that are provided to us today do

7 not have the 65 ter number on them, if he can just for our purposes, as

8 limited as they may be, just refer to the ERN number.

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: I would be happy to do that. The English

10 translation has ERN number 00326327. The B/C/S is 00326328.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And for clarification, admitted into evidence is

12 the English translation, 229A, and on the document of Kozarski Vjesnik,

13 229B. It's only the part on the right-hand side in the middle in the

14 frame one can identify there.

15 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, if I may, before counsel asks a

16 question, I'd like to interject, if I may.


18 MR. OSTOJIC: I spoke perhaps a bit quickly when I stated we

19 didn't have an objection to document Exhibit S228 A and B. Specifically,

20 we would like to retract that and advise the Court that we do have an

21 objection to this document, if I can just briefly set forth the basis of

22 the document.

23 Although I appreciate my learned friend's comment that the

24 document was either seized or under his statements the source or the chain

25 of the document, the document clearly on its face does not bear any

Page 6420

1 official stamp or any signature on the last page which would authenticate

2 the document as being the document that was from the institution that

3 purports to have its name on it. So on the basis of that, we would object

4 to both the authenticity as well as the foundation of the procurement of

5 this document.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. It would facilitate our work if we

7 also could have this B/C/S. Before us, we have the English translation.

8 If we could only have one for the purposes --

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm sorry, I thought it was distributed.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Maybe we had it already earlier.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: My mistake.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: As you said before the break, you would provide

13 us with copies.

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, that would be something covered from

15 Mr. Inayat's testimony, but his report indicates this was seized from the

16 CSB, the state security building in Banja Luka.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Nevertheless, taking into account all the

18 reservations as regards the admission into evidence we stated in the

19 beginning of this case, the documents stays as admitted into evidence.

20 And we can discuss it in the presence of Mr. Inayat. Thank you.

21 But maybe also the witness before us, Madam Tabeau, can assist us

22 to a certain extent whether or not normally such documents have a stamp or

23 are signed, et cetera.

24 THE WITNESS: Well, I believe this is the normal form how this

25 document look like, how these documents look like. So it is -- it is not

Page 6421

1 necessary for these type of documents to be stamped, I believe.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So you never would expect there a stamp to be or

3 any kind of signature of a person being responsible for the content of

4 this document?

5 THE WITNESS: This is just an article published, so it is not the

6 common practice, I think, to sign every --

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: I believe the witness is speaking about the next,

8 and Your Honour is going back to the 228. We had last asked the witness

9 about 229.

10 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I misunderstood. I thought we were

11 speaking about the one here.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No, we are speaking about 228. Once again,

13 please, if you can have a look at the B/C/S version, whether that's the

14 normal material you are working with, whether you would expect this

15 document to be sealed or stamped or signed?

16 THE WITNESS: It is, well, the document that was prepared by the

17 state security department, so it is not common practice to sign with names

18 or stamp these type of documents, I believe.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Were those documents normally published in the

20 Official Gazette?

21 THE WITNESS: I don't think the data was published in the Official

22 Gazette.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Because it's strictly confidential.

24 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's very sensitive information, especially at

25 the time, 1995. For internal use mainly, I believe.

Page 6422

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Mr. Koumjian, please proceed.

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, just going to the 229, I see we handed

3 out two different photocopies of the article, and I want to make sure, I

4 think the better one, although it's smaller, but it's a better copy and

5 shows the full page, has the ERN number 00465090. Can that be the 229B?

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: As I said earlier, when we can see that's from

7 Kozarski Vjesnik, and it's, yes, apparently nearly in the middle of the

8 page, the three right columns in a frame.

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Correct. And perhaps it's short, may I read out

10 this article.

11 Q. Is it correct that this is an article from Kozarski Vjesnik of the

12 2nd of July 1993, indicates, the top title: "Unofficial census results."

13 And then the larger print title: "Who are we and how many?" And the text

14 reads: "Although the official results of the census carried out in the

15 municipalities of Republika Srpska will be published by the republican

16 bureau of statistics, the municipal census commission published on

17 Tuesday afternoon in the first results of the census carried out in the

18 Prijedor municipality. It is interesting to note that there are 19.767

19 households and 65.551 inhabitants living in the municipality. Out of the

20 total number of the Prijedor population, 53.637 are orthodox, 6.124 are

21 Muslim, and 3.169 Catholics. 4 per cent of the total number of

22 inhabitants are grouped under 'others'.

23 "63.153 of Prijedor population, or 96.3 per cent, have Serbian

24 citizenship; 8.3 per cent or 5.451 inhabitants of Prijedor are resettled

25 persons of which 5.037 have refugee status."

Page 6423

1 And Doctor, is it correct --

2 MR. OSTOJIC: Pardon me. If I may, if my learned friend can just

3 point out in the B/C/S version where the date appears in which he has

4 provided to the Court by reading the exhibit. Unfortunately -- on

5 Exhibit 229, which is what we're discussing which has the ERN number

6 00465090, I believe.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You are missing the date 2 July, 1993. Right?

8 MR. OSTOJIC: Correct, Your Honour.

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'll request that that edition be brought down. It

10 could be that it's on the date, maybe on the side or some other parts of

11 the paper.

12 Q. Going back to the ELMO, and now going to figure 1, would it be

13 correct -- can you explain what this figure depicts?

14 A. Figure 1 shows the development of the population in the Prijedor

15 Municipality since 1931, here, and the last year included is 1995. This

16 is the total population --

17 Q. Indicating the thick black line, yes.

18 A. Yes, the thick black line. And the largest value for the census

19 year 1991, a dramatic drop afterwards based on data from 1993 and followed

20 by the information from 1995.

21 Here, for the period starting in 1971, we show development of the

22 population by -- for each ethnic group. This line I marked here in

23 colour, just for a better understanding, is the development of the Serbian

24 population. The green one is the Muslim population. The blue one, the

25 Croat population. And the grey one, others, remaining ethnic groups taken

Page 6424

1 together.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. For a better understanding in the

3 transcript, we don't have it in colour before us. Could you identify

4 these lines that it can be read also in black and white.

5 THE WITNESS: It is also, I believe, clear in black and white

6 because the lines are marked in a different way for each ethnic group. So

7 the explanation of the lines is included in the figure. So there might be

8 some confusion about total and Muslims because I believe, in black and

9 white, these lines are exactly the same. But the level of the total is

10 just the sum of all groups, ethnic groups, taken together, so the values

11 shown here are much larger.

12 So for the rest, I believe, it is -- it should be possible to

13 identify the Serb population, which is indicated here by this line. So

14 the Muslim population is dark and thick. This is the second line here.

15 The population of Croats is a different one than the one of Serbs. And it

16 is shown here as the lowest one. And the population of others in colour

17 grey, but in black and white just lighter, light black, I would put it

18 this way, is this line, the second from the bottom of the figure.


20 Q. So this would indicate graphically that the population declined

21 after the outbreak of the conflict in 1992, and would it be correct that

22 the absolute numbers of Serbian residents increased and the absolute

23 numbers of those identifying themselves as Muslim, Croats, and others

24 declined after the outbreak of conflict in 1992?

25 A. Yes, it is very correct and clear from this figure. So the

Page 6425












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6426

1 decline of the Muslim population is the largest among all ethnic groups,

2 the three ethnic groups which declined.

3 Q. So perhaps to get a better look at these percentages, can we now

4 go to table number 3. Table number 3, is it correct, shows the

5 percentages of the various ethnic groups -- well, of Muslims, Croats,

6 Serbs, and all other groups being grouped under the "others" category. Is

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And other persons identify themselves as Yugoslavs. Is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The percentage of Muslims rose in 1991 to 43.9 per cent. Is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes, it is correct.

15 Q. And what happened in the years 1993, 1995, and 1997?

16 A. We see that there was a dramatic decline of this percentage. In

17 1993, it had become 9.3 per cent; in 1995, 5.4; and from the voters'

18 register, we see that it is even lower, 1.4 per cent.

19 Q. Please read off the changes in the Croat population from 1991

20 through 1993, 1995, and 1997.

21 A. So it is from 5.6 per cent in 1991 to 5.3 in 1993; 1.5 per cent in

22 1995; and 3.1 in 1997.

23 Q. How did the percentage of residents identifying themselves as of

24 Serb ethnicity change between 1991, 1993, 1995, and 1997?

25 A. For the Serb population, the fraction, the percentage, in 1991 was

Page 6427

1 42.3 per cent; in 1993, it had become 81.5 per cent; in 1995, even higher,

2 92.3 per cent; and 1997 data, voters' register, informs that there were

3 87.1 per cent of Serbs in the area.

4 Q. And how did the percentage of persons who identified themselves as

5 another ethnicity or Yugoslav, grouped together as "others", change?

6 A. From 8.3 per cent in 1991 to 4 per cent, 1993. 0.8 per cent in

7 1995 to 8.5 per cent again in 1997.

8 Q. Thank you. And if we could now just shift to figure 2, I believe,

9 that's a graphic representation of the -- well, you can explain what it

10 is.

11 A. It is a graphic representation, as you said, of the figures we

12 just saw in table 3. It is again in colour. You probably see it in black

13 and white in your report. It is probably not that clear in black and

14 white. The first line, the one that increases dramatically after 1990, is

15 the line illustrating the development of the percentage for the Serb

16 population. The second one, directly below the first one, illustrates the

17 development of the fraction of Muslim population. Then the line that we

18 see here, this one, third one starting at the left and then later

19 becoming the lowest one, is the line for the Croat population. And the

20 last one in the end, at the bottom of the figure, is the population of

21 others, with the small increase here in the end.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Before you turn to another issue, please taken

23 into account that the time frame elapsed already, and we have mandatorily

24 to have a break now until 5 minutes past 1.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.44 p.m.

Page 6428

1 --- On resuming at 1.11 p.m.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, there are a couple matters I wanted to

4 bring to the Court's attention. I think, first, just very briefly, I did

5 receive word that definitely we will be given enough staff to be ready on

6 the Mrdja case in October.

7 But the immediate problem I want to address the Court about is

8 that we had identified several individuals around the Tribunal that we

9 thought resembled Dr. Stakic as he looked in 1992 or as he looks today.

10 However, this morning, we received a call from two -- well, from one who

11 worked in Chambers - we believe we have two who work in Chambers - who

12 indicated that he would not be allowed to participate by the judge that he

13 works for. Also, we received information from security guards that they

14 would not be allowed to participate in a line-up. The result at this

15 point is we only have one individual who we think resembles Dr. Stakic

16 now. Again, we are open to suggestions. Mr. Ostojic asked if I would

17 stand in the line-up. But any other suggestions, we are open to. But we

18 have that problem. And we also have a problem in identifying again

19 whether the participants should look like Mr. Stakic in 1992 or today,

20 with the goatee and the change in appearance. But our problem really is

21 we only have one individual who we do think fits the general description,

22 and the others simply do not want to participate or are not being

23 permitted by their supervisors to participate. We are willing to put

24 anyone in the line-up who the Court or counsel believes would be

25 appropriate.

Page 6429


2 MR. OSTOJIC: This comes as somewhat of a surprise, Your Honour,

3 because it was our understanding that it was set up so our participation

4 and assistance has not been sought until this very moment, or moments ago,

5 I should actually say properly. I did obviously ask Mr. Koumjian

6 facetiously if he would participate in it. However, obviously, the

7 witness, having been interviewed by Mr. Koumjian, would be unacceptable or

8 working with the OTP would be unacceptable.

9 The procedure, obviously, is one that is very important. It is

10 the only witness that we believe thus far is trying to make a nexus with

11 an allegation that we are directly in dispute of. It's unfortunate that

12 this has not been clarified before today's date because we would have an

13 impossible time of trying to find individuals in this country to stand and

14 agree to stand on a line-up before the ICTY.

15 I will accept any suggestion the Court has for us, with obviously

16 the precaution that our objections to this are not by any means being

17 waived in connection with having at least -- and we would have hoped to

18 have by this Friday at least some photographs or an idea of whether or not

19 these individuals that the OTP believes are similarly and

20 characteristically descriptive as Dr. Stakic. As we have experienced with

21 the photo identification board, we do have some disagreements with how

22 liberally the OTP views the makeup of certain individuals. So with those

23 reservations, Your Honour, we are open, the Defence and Dr. Stakic, to any

24 suggestions the Court may make in connection with this.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The easier exercise is, of course, to come to an

Page 6430

1 agreement as regards a photo identification board. And there, I think

2 it's not necessary to grant any assistance from the side of the Judges.

3 Please try to find a solution between yourselves.

4 As regards the line-up, I cannot really understand that, and it

5 comes to me by surprise, having discussed with my colleagues, that the

6 superiors are not prepared to allow these colleagues to participate in

7 this line-up. And therefore, I want kindly to ask the OTP to provide me

8 with the names of these persons and their superiors, and a draft kind

9 request addressed to the superiors that they rethink their approach and to

10 do that what justice requires. So, therefore, please provide me with

11 these names and their superiors. It was not for nothing, but this morning

12 I started to discuss this issue because I was afraid that something like

13 this would happen. But I think we can overcome it.

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: Does Your Honour want that now or do you want it --

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it's better to do it in writing. And

16 please, if you can provide me with a draft letter I have to sign to the

17 superiors of these persons, if the persons themselves are prepared. But

18 we have to take into account, normally, in all judicial systems, we expect

19 from citizens to participate, whether they want or not to participate in

20 this line-up. And when a person, the member of the staff of this

21 International Tribunal, for me, there seems to be no doubt that it's

22 mandatory to participate in such a line-up. And this shouldn't be an

23 obstacle; and therefore, provide me with the names mentioned. Thank you.

24 MR. KOUMJIAN: I do have one other -- seek clarification on one

25 other point if we try to identify other individuals. Do Your Honours feel

Page 6431

1 that the individuals, we should aim for having them resemble Dr. Stakic as

2 he appeared in 1992 in the videos that we've seen or as he appears today?

3 The witness is testifying regarding an identification in 1992.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Not to be misunderstood, but from my point of

5 view, it's, first of all, a question of body language, and therefore, it

6 should be a composition of both people being close to the appearance of

7 Dr. Stakic at the time in 1992 and some others close to the appearance of

8 today. I'm quite sure that the change of the appearance doesn't change

9 much when it comes to the recognition. So therefore, a mixture of both

10 would be appropriate.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just to update, on the Kozarski Vjesnik, the actual

12 newspaper, we haven't been able to obtain it at the moment because it's

13 currently signed out of the evidence unit by another team. But we'll get

14 it not today, but another day.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And when we discussed this issue, we should be

16 aware that the update to be expected by Madam Tabeau should be in the

17 possession of the Defence as soon as possible, taking into account the

18 time frame provided for in Rule 94 bis. Therefore, it should be, and I

19 hope it will be, updated until mid-August in order that in case the

20 Defence wants to exhaust the time limit and the Trial Chamber does not

21 vary the time limits under Rule 127, it can be done before September 19.

22 So please take into account this additional time frame.

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just to remind the Court, my recollection is, at

24 the beginning of the trial, we did agree to use the old time rules

25 regarding the expert reports. And in fact both sides, I thought,

Page 6432

1 informally indicated that they would be flexible regarding the time of the

2 reports. But I believe I have asked her for that report within the time

3 frame Your Honour mentioned, and we can remind her -- I will certainly

4 remind her that. The one additional data I was hoping would be available

5 to her but has not yet come in is an updated electronic version of the

6 Prijedor book of missing persons. It has not yet arrived. I thought it

7 would come in, in June, but it has not yet come in yet.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You expect it from Geneva?

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: No, this is not from the ICRC. This is from a

10 group of Prijedor -- I'm not sure of the exact title. It's mentioned

11 actually in this report. It's the book of missing persons. It's compiled

12 by a Prijedor refugee organisation. It's also the book that

13 Mr. Murselovic discussed in his testimony.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And we don't have an update from Geneva. Right.

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: I believe we do, and she has that.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So this, at least, can be included.


18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. Thank you.

19 And I take it as accepted that if this new updated version is in

20 the possession of the Defence, they wouldn't object to include this in the

21 Prosecutor's case finalising the 19th of September. Right?

22 MR. OSTOJIC: Correct, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this.

24 Then the usher may bring the witness in.

25 Please proceed.

Page 6433


2 Q. Doctor, when we took the break, I believe we were looking at

3 figure 2, which is still on the video evidence on the ELMO. And just to

4 clarify, because it does not have the same coded marks and lines as in the

5 report, is this the same figure as included on page 8 of the

6 English-language version of your report, but with colours as opposed to

7 the ethnicities being marked by diamonds or squares or circles on the

8 lines?

9 A. Yes, it is the same figure, only the colour is used instead of

10 markers.

11 Q. Thank you. And now if we could go to figure 3. Again, is this a

12 graphic illustration in the changes of the ethnic composition in Prijedor

13 Municipality from pre-conflict to post conflict?

14 A. Yes, it is, only different from the previous figure in the sense

15 that here we compare one and the same group of people in both years, 1991

16 and 1997, those eligible to vote in 1997.

17 Q. Would it be correct that this only compares the 1991 census to

18 1997 from the 1997 voter registration? This does not include the 1993 and

19 1995 data?

20 A. Yes, this is correct.

21 Q. And when you indicate that again you're only comparing the same

22 persons, is that again relevant to the issue of age of persons eligible to

23 vote in 1997?

24 A. Yes, this is this group eligible to vote in 1997, in both years.

25 Q. So can you just explain the graph that's before us.

Page 6434












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6435

1 A. This graph compares for each ethnic group the percentage of this

2 particular group in the whole population, first in 1997, before the

3 conflict; and then in 1997, after the conflict. This first group of bars

4 is for Serbs, for Serbs. Next one for the Muslim population, Croats, and

5 other ethnic groups. It is for Serbs, for instance, the situation in 1991

6 was that the fraction of Serbs was approximately 43 per cent, while in

7 1997, we estimated, based on the voters' register, that the fraction was

8 89 per cent. The fractions are given in the text on page 9 of the English

9 version, in the paragraph just above the figure.

10 Q. And how did the Muslim population change between 1991 and 1997?

11 A. The Muslim population was represented at 43 per cent before the

12 conflict, 99 to 1 fraction, and approximately at 1 per cent after the

13 conflict in 1997. So the Croats next, the two figures are 6 per cent and

14 2 per cent, and the group of others was represented at 8 per cent in 1991

15 and approximately, again, 8 per cent in 1997.

16 Q. Doctor, in relation to the dramatic increase in the Serbian

17 percentages, is it also true from your data that Serbs had moved into the

18 municipality of Prijedor from other parts of the Former Yugoslavia?

19 A. We did not study this issue in this particular report, but I have

20 some data from UNHCR about displaced persons, returns of displaced

21 persons, and there were newcomers, Serb newcomers who came into the area

22 of Prijedor after the conflict, or even during the conflict as well, in

23 the later phases of the conflict.

24 Q. Thank you, Dr. Tabeau. I want to thank you for your testimony and

25 tell you we all look forward to your updated report on the missing and

Page 6436

1 killed in Prijedor.

2 A. Thank you.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Before I give the floor to the Defence, the

4 Judges briefly discussed, and it might be -- of course, we didn't come to

5 any kind of conclusion which Rule has to be applied in this case. But

6 it might be that under the headline "joint criminal enterprise," it's not

7 only relevant what happened in Prijedor, and therefore our request under

8 Rule 98, sentence 1, would be, if possible, to be provided with a similar

9 overview, the results as regards - I don't know whether or not you have

10 already such a report - population changes in Bosnia-Herzegovina from 1991

11 to 1997.

12 THE WITNESS: Not yet, but we are preparing -- we have been

13 working on this type of analysis, the same type of figures for the whole

14 country, all municipalities.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: When do you believe this will be finalised?

16 THE WITNESS: As soon as my new staff member will arrive. He is

17 arriving in August. The person will start working on it within two months

18 from now, I believe, up to maximum of two months. Certainly preliminary

19 figures can be provided immediately.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be my next question: Do you have any

21 approximations already now prepared?


23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it would be appropriate to include this

24 into the next updated report as well. The OTP agrees?

25 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, I think Dr. Tabeau could talk in general

Page 6437

1 terms, but if Your Honour wants to wait for the specific figures, she

2 certainly has been working with changes in the Republika Srpska and

3 overall in Bosnia for a long time. I could cover that in general terms

4 now or we could wait to have the --

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If we could use the remaining ten minutes, and

6 then start with the cross-examination tomorrow, in the morning, and

7 covering now this general view on Bosnia-Herzegovina. Thank you.


9 Q. Doctor, can you tell us, how many municipalities, if you know off

10 the top of your head, existed in Bosnia and Herzegovina prior to the

11 outbreak of conflict in -- let's say prior to 1991, during 1991 and

12 previously?

13 A. There were 109 municipalities until the Dayton Peace Agreement

14 practically. So later, the classification was changed.

15 Q. And in the Dayton Peace Agreement, is it correct that certain

16 municipalities were split between different entities?

17 A. Yes, it is correct. These were municipalities, many of them

18 municipalities located around, nearby the Dayton line dividing the country

19 into two political entities.

20 Q. So, for example, Skender Vakuf, as a municipality, I believe, was

21 split into two different municipalities. Is that correct?

22 A. It is correct, for instance. Yes.

23 Q. In general terms, is it correct that prior to the outbreak of

24 conflict, can you discuss how the various ethnicities were distributed

25 within Bosnia and Herzegovina?

Page 6438

1 A. Of course, using, for instance, municipal level, analytical level,

2 we can show for each municipality the ethnic composition and majority,

3 ethnic majority in every municipality, and present a map of ethnic

4 majority for the whole country.

5 Q. I don't know if you have these figures in memory, but do you know

6 the current entity known as the Republika Srpska, do you know what the

7 figures would have been for the population of that entity, the percentage

8 of the population that was Serbian, in that entity, that geographical

9 boundary, in 1991, in the 1991 census?

10 A. Well, I don't remember specific figures. But generally I think in

11 this area that is today known as Republika Srpska, the majority ethnic

12 group was the Serb population. I don't remember specific figures and I

13 don't want to give any approximation. I can provide you with figures that

14 I have -- I call preliminary that are still very reliable, and you can see

15 these figures in front of your eyes for every municipality, both political

16 entities, selected towns, cities. This can be done immediately.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You could provide us with these approximations

18 by tomorrow morning?


20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Would it be possible to ask the Court for me

22 tomorrow morning to make the conclusion of that testimony more succinct

23 and make more sense, that I could confer with her regarding this

24 additional data before she testifies tomorrow morning?

25 MR. OSTOJIC: We do not object to that, Your Honour, however, our

Page 6439

1 point is that I thought the Court asked for the entirety of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, not just Republika Srpska. So to the extent, and

3 maybe it's just my misunderstanding, if we could be also be provided with

4 the information in connection with the federation known as

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

6 And I do have one other point that I'd like to address in

7 connection, since we're asking Dr. Tabeau and she is being kind enough to

8 assist us on that, if I may now, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, please.

10 MR. OSTOJIC: There seems to be a questionnaire that is in the

11 possession of Dr. Tabeau in connection with the data that was obtained

12 from the census in 1991. Since we have not seen that questionnaire, and

13 it's my understanding from prior testimony given on July 10th, 2002, the

14 doctor actually has that questionnaire, she touched upon those issues, we

15 would like, for our purposes, to have an opportunity to review the

16 questionnaire and possibly obtain a copy of it before the close of today

17 or, if necessary, tomorrow morning at her convenience.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would this be possible for you, the latter

19 point?


21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And indeed, when we discuss the question, it was

22 -- the question at stake was first the entirety of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

23 and then separately from this, as regards the Republika Srpska, and in

24 addition to this, if you have the figures for the federation of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 6440


2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be excellent if you could provide us

3 with these additional figures because, until now, of course, we are not

4 yet sure which test has to be applied. It's a legal question.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: If I could, if I may, I believe the Doctor is in

6 progress to completing a report for another case pending before the

7 Tribunal regarding the republic level leadership of the SDS of the

8 Republika Srpska. And this report, I think, would answer Your Honours'

9 questions. We can provide that report probably in this case also as -- in

10 addition to her testimony.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it would be helpful for all of us. And

12 it's my understanding that this concludes your -- the part of your

13 examination for today. And we proceed tomorrow with the

14 examination-in-chief with the additional data, and we are really grateful

15 that you are prepared to do this immediately. And then let's have the

16 cross-examination later tomorrow. This concludes today's 56th day in this

17 case. And we reconvene tomorrow, 9.00, in this courtroom. Thank you.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

19 1.39 p.m., to be reconvened on

20 Thursday, the 25th day of July, 2002,

21 at 9.00 a.m.