Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9623

 1                          Wednesday, 11 December 2002

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

 5            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Good afternoon.  Please be seated.

 6            If I can ask the representative of the registry to call the case,

 7    please.

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon.  Case number IT-97-24-T, the

 9    Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

10            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  And the appearances, please.

11            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Nicholas Koumjian,

12    with Ruth Karper for the Prosecution.

13            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you.

14            And for the Defence.

15            MR. OSTOJIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  John Ostojic along

16    with Danilo Cirkovic on behalf of Dr. Milomir Stakic.

17            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you.

18            Before we hopefully can conclude Witness DD, let me ask what about

19    the list for the witnesses to be called the first -- yes, the first eight

20    days in January.  This list was due today.

21            MR. OSTOJIC:  That is correct, Your Honour, and we have the list

22    here that we can distribute to the Court and to the OTP.  However, just as

23    a matter of reference or note, it is just a single-page list.  We would

24    ask that it be kept confidential, because at this point there are some

25    within this list that may be seeking protective measures and some that

Page 9624

 1    have, but what we've done is identified them by the number from our 65 ter

 2    disclosures as well as their full name.  So if I can just apply for that

 3    cautionary measure to be utilised for these exhibits.

 4            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Right.  I think there are no objections.  It may

 5    be treated confidential until further notice.

 6            And I take it that the proffers for these witnesses have been

 7    distributed?  For example, number 15 was on the list of missing proffers.

 8            MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  It's my understanding that now

 9    the OTP is in possession of all the proffers for those witnesses that

10    we've just submitted.

11            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  As you know, also the Judges are extremely

12    grateful if we have the proffers, and we missed until now number 15.

13            MR. OSTOJIC:  It's also my understanding, Your Honour, that we've

14    submitted the proffers to be delivered to the Court as well.  We can -- we

15    can verify that.  And if not, we'll get it at the next break to secure

16    that the Court has it.

17            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Yes.  Apparently it was distributed right now.

18            Then any other additional issues?  It was my understanding that

19    the order of appearances should change during this week.  Correct?

20    Especially for today.

21            MR. OSTOJIC:  That is accurate, Your Honour.  And if I can just

22    explain.  It's not necessarily a change, but when we anticipate a certain

23    length of time for a witness, we cannot and do not anticipate the length

24    of time that the OTP will undertake to cross.  So our schedule is based on

25    our best guesstimate, if you will, and we had scheduled today's witnesses,

Page 9625

 1    but obviously we're still on Witness 05, DD, and the following witness

 2    will be as scheduled in the same order, which is Witness number 44.

 3            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Right.

 4            MR. OSTOJIC:  Who also, if I'm not incorrect, the Court has

 5    granted protective measures, both pseudonym, facial distortion, and voice

 6    distortion.  He'll proceed next in the order that we suggested.

 7            Following Witness 044, we will be calling Witness number 052,

 8    whose name is Vladimir Makovski.  He is not -- is not seeking protective

 9    measures, and that's why I identify him also by his name and number.

10            Following Mr. Makovski, the Defence will call Witness number 045.

11    We do not anticipate asking for protective measures for Witness 045,

12    however, I have not in detail discussed with this witness his desires, if

13    any, regarding that, so I'd prefer not to identify him at this moment.

14    But I don't anticipate that we will be seeking those measures for him.

15            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  All right.

16            MR. OSTOJIC:  So those three witnesses for the remainder of the

17    week we think will adequately fulfil the time period -- or at least we

18    anticipate that it will, especially given or in light of the first

19    witness, DD, having taken the time that it did, which is -- we're not

20    objecting it to, obviously.  We welcome it.  And we think that that will

21    be all the witnesses we will call for this week.

22            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  You indicated earlier that there would be an

23    additional two witnesses.  And we have tomorrow and we have Friday.  The

24    plenary for Friday has been cancelled, but this Trial Chamber will

25    continue and is ready to hear the witnesses that are present in The

Page 9626

 1    Hague.  It should never be the case that we send a witness home without

 2    having heard the witness.  So therefore, please take care that the

 3    witnesses still stay in The Hague and we can continue.

 4            MR. OSTOJIC:  I'm in agreement to proceed.  I think that we'll

 5    take up the entire period of the week with the remaining three witnesses,

 6    however.  With respect to Witness number 71, he's not coming to The

 7    Hague.  He is not in The Hague.  And we will not be calling him this week.

 8            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  And then the final one?  There was one in

 9    addition.

10            MR. OSTOJIC:  I think the Court is referring to Witness number 68

11    68.

12            There were some personal problems that had arisen with respect to

13    Witness number 68.  We are trying to get all the information in connection

14    with this witness.  We will be to inform the Court more fully on that

15    hopefully later this evening or tomorrow morning in connection with his

16    personal circumstances that I've discussed with him.

17            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  But the witness is in The Hague?

18            MR. OSTOJIC:  That witness is, yes, Your Honour.

19            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  So in principle, we expect to hear also Witness

20    number 086 from the 65 ter list.  But in future, we should make reference

21    only to the final Defence list prepared by the registry.

22            MR. OSTOJIC:  Just so the record is clear, Your Honour, 086 is not

23    at The Hague, but 068 is.

24            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Yes.

25            MR. OSTOJIC:  Well, the record says that you're requesting 086 on

Page 9627

 1    the transcript.

 2            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Yes.  And it's 068.  I don't want to mention the

 3    name, 3rd March birthday.  Correct?

 4            Okay.  Anything in addition?

 5            MR. OSTOJIC:  I do, Your Honour, if I may, since I have the

 6    floor.  Thank you.

 7            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Yes.

 8            MR. OSTOJIC:  Your Honour, a matter arose yesterday in questioning

 9    by the Court, and I would just like some guidance on it if I may.  With

10    all due respect to the Court, the Court asked a witness a question.  It is

11    not my practice, if you will, to object unless I feel that it is of utmost

12    necessity, particularly with respect to the OTP witnesses.

13            My question, if the Court would be kind enough to assist me in

14    understanding it, relates to the question Your Honour asked whether

15    Keraterm was similarly or was it known to be the same type of institution

16    as Omarska in 1992.  With all due respect to the Court, 1992 in August, as

17    we all know, the international press uncovered Omarska and Keraterm as

18    well as Trnopolje.  There was much media in 1992 after that.  I don't want

19    to utilise the answer given by the witness, although I'll obviously --

20    it's the Court's discretion to advise us, hopefully, on this, to suggest

21    that that was known to this individual prior or after certain dates.  I

22    think the individual answered the question.  There was some perhaps

23    confusion, and he answered it in the affirmative.

24            I would ask if it's necessary for the Court to determine whether

25    this witness knew, since he was not ever physically at Keraterm, based on

Page 9628

 1    his testimony, but did visit Omarska once and Trnopolje on three separate

 2    occasions that, if the Court wishes, I can ask that if I'm given an

 3    opportunity on redirect or just to clarify it.  Because I think as the

 4    transcript reads now, it's left too broad for interpretation.  Again, I

 5    say with the most respect.  It is just -- we're looking for guidance and

 6    dates and times are extremely important for us, I think as the Court has

 7    gathered.

 8            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  I think it would be for the Defence if they are

 9    not satisfied with the one or other answer and they might feel that an

10    answer was ambiguous to address this issue in the re-examination.

11            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

12            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  So that's the reason why we proceeded this way

13    before you started your re-examination.

14            Anything else?

15            MR. OSTOJIC:  There is one other point, if I may, for the record,

16    Your Honour.  Unfortunately, as I stated my practice with respect to

17    objecting is to allow the flow of questions and answer to proceed

18    accordingly.  Regrettably yesterday in part -- I think it was page 68 of

19    the transcript, if I'm not mistaken, Mr. Koumjian asked the question,

20    which was a compound question, which also included the language when he

21    was inquiring as to this witness's discussion with the Defence team, and

22    he referenced to the extent -- I'm paraphrasing it, but I think I have it

23    accurate.  He was asked to testify to items that the Defence would allow

24    him to testify to, the items that the Defence would like you to testify

25    to.

Page 9629

 1            Again, I think it's an inappropriate question.  It's not a

 2    question of the Defence wishing him.  He came here as a witness to

 3    testify.  And we believe he did give much testimony, as we know from the

 4    two days.  It's that reference that I would hope that the OTP does not

 5    continue to ask our witnesses.  Not if they met with the Defence or when

 6    they met with the Defence, but not to suggest that the Defence would in

 7    any manner manipulate or seek somehow to distort the testimony of

 8    witnesses. They are under oath and know their obligations once they take

 9    that oath.  The Court has warned numerous witnesses in connection with

10    their obligation.  The Defence objects to the OTP suggesting that the

11    Defence attorneys or our investigators would in any manner suggest to

12    witnesses to provide certain answers.  So we just for the record would

13    like to make that objection.

14            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  We have heard this objection, but we have to

15    come back to this later when we have the necessary time to discuss whether

16    or not the proffers provided by the Defence orally and in writing were, in

17    fact, misleading and brought this Trial Chamber to a decision which would

18    not have been the outcome of our discussion whether or not a witness is

19    relevant and -- but this concern has to be expressed in the presence of

20    both Defence counsel.

21            The Prosecution, please.

22            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Your Honour, I wanted to raise two matters, and one

23    deals with the proffers, but perhaps it's better to deal with that, as

24    Your Honour suggested, in the presence of both Defence counsel.  But we

25    were particularly concerned with the proffer of one of the upcoming

Page 9630

 1    witnesses.  I believe it's number 45, that's being an example of an

 2    inadequate proffer.  Even if that is accurate, it's just inadequate as far

 3    as the detail provided.  But we're prepared to proceed for the rest of

 4    this week.

 5            The other matter I just wanted to raise briefly is that we did

 6    inform the Defence regarding one of the witnesses who previously testified

 7    who the Defence in their motion identified as a person that they would

 8    have had other questions for had they had the Rule 68 material submitted

 9    by the Prosecution in the summons interviews.  And that's Mr. Marcelovic.

10    I just want to remind the Defence that he is here today.  He's here this

11    week.  And he's available this week to answer further relevant questions,

12    if the Court finds that there are relevant questions arising from the

13    material that was provided to the Defence after Mr. Marcelovic testified.

14            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you.  But I deliberately didn't ask this

15    question because I take it that having received the letter by the

16    Prosecution in due time, it would be for the Defence to indicate if

17    there -- they believe there is a necessity to hear a witness again, to

18    cross-examine a witness again.  And the same holds true for the two

19    witnesses to come in January.  I take it that the Defence does not have

20    the intention to restart the cross-examination of the three persons

21    mentioned in the same letter.

22            MR. OSTOJIC:  If I may reply.

23            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Please.

24            MR. OSTOJIC:  If the Court recalls, on December 3rd, 2002, the OTP

25    sent us a letter which identified only one witness, Witness Q, that was

Page 9631

 1    going to be present this week to testify.  That did relate to our motion

 2    for a mistrial, it was denied by the Court.  At that time we responded,

 3    namely on December 4th, 2002, and suggested that we do feel there is a

 4    need.

 5            Upon consultation with Dr. Stakic and the rest of the Defence

 6    team, we determined, based upon the evidence that was produced to us

 7    following the Rule 68 disclosures, namely of those five individuals and

 8    specifically of the one and that the Court, I think, is well aware of, we

 9    decided not to question Witness Q.  Subsequent to that - although on the

10    same day, we believe, perhaps the 4th of December - we received another

11    letter from the OTP identifying three additional witnesses with dates upon

12    which they're expected to testify.

13            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Right.

14            MR. OSTOJIC:  We immediately responded to the first letter,

15    Witness Q, which the Court referenced.  The Defence likewise respond to

16    the second letter, which identified these three individuals.  Within that

17    letter, based upon my recollection, we requested that we would like to

18    re-examine the witness that is here this week.  Actually, it was Witness

19    number 21.  I'm not sure if he was a private witness.  I could identify

20    him in the letter he was identified.  So I don't believe that he is a

21    private witness, and the OTP is nodding, it is a public witness, Muharem

22    Murselovic.

23            We do want to question Mr. Murselovic again.  Based on the 68

24    disclosures of the members -- or purported members of the Crisis Staff in

25    1992.  And that's what we indicated to the OTP at that time, and we also

Page 9632

 1    carbon copied the Court specifically with respect to that.

 2            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  The Court is only in the possession of the

 3    letter I mentioned before, as of 4 December 2002, mentioning three

 4    witnesses, one of them being in The Hague on 11 December.  And as opposed

 5    to the other letter of the same date, we didn't receive any reaction from

 6    the Defence.  We took it that it's not your intention to continue with the

 7    cross-examination of this witness.  But if necessary, we can react

 8    immediately.  But then, please, take into account that what we stated

 9    earlier:  You have to demonstrate that on the basis of concrete questions

10    that you weren't able to put these concrete questions to the witnesses

11    when they had been here in The Hague and that these new questions are

12    emanating from the statements missing at that point in time, I have never

13    seen an answer related to Witness Murselovic.

14            MR. OSTOJIC:  With all due respect, Your Honour, we can check with

15    the registrar.  We did file with the registry a letter responding

16    specifically to the letter of the 4th of December, 2003 [sic], and we

17    copied the Court.  I'll check with the registry.  The OTP, I believe, is

18    in possession of that letter and we filed it the same day that we did the

19    other letter, and I believe it was the 4th of December, 2002.

20            Within that letter, we asked and identified and put on notice the

21    OTP and the Court that we would like to discuss the issue and we are

22    seeking leave to continue to question the witness.  The Court has never

23    set parameters as to how far in advance we should outline our specific

24    questions of the witness.  I'm prepared, having reviewed his summary in

25    part this morning, to advise the Court the areas in which I'd like to

Page 9633

 1    touch upon with Mr. Murselovic.

 2            In that same letter, just by memory, I specifically state that

 3    with the remaining two witnesses - and the Defence reserves our right on

 4    this - with the remaining two witnesses, since they'll be called sometime

 5    in mid-January, that we notified the OTP - and it's outlined specifically

 6    in that letter that we submitted to the registry, to the OTP, carbon

 7    copying each of the three Judges - that we reserve our right at that time

 8    upon further evaluation to determine whether we will be asking questions

 9    of the remaining two individuals.

10            I just don't want to record to reflect that we did not respond.

11    We did respond.  We responded in writing.  It was filed in the normal

12    channels.  The Defence cannot and does not follow up to see if the Court

13    did or did not receive that letter.  We're confident it was received by

14    the OTP because we talked about it.  We were confident since our prior

15    filings were always received that that one likewise would be given to the

16    Court.

17            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Just to inform counsel, that I'm not aware that we

18    received the letter.  I know the OTP is a large institution.  Ms. Karper

19    is not aware of it and Ms. Sutherland is not aware of it.  Ms. Korner is

20    away, so I'm not sure of whether it's possible that that letter somehow

21    got to her office without reaching us.  But none of us are aware of the

22    receipt of a letter from the Defence.

23            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  May I ask Madam Registrar whether there was a

24    letter.

25            THE REGISTRAR:  I will double-check, Your Honour, if you will

Page 9634

 1    allow me.

 2            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  We are taken by surprise, admittedly.  We are

 3    discussing this -- the issue what witness to be heard the next day, day by

 4    day, and you had possibilities enough to address this issue orally.  If

 5    you believe you have written a letter, then you could have done it orally

 6    in addition.  If you were under the impression that the Chamber has not

 7    received and not responded to your letter.

 8            MR. OSTOJIC:  That --

 9            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  So but let's -- let's not discuss.  Let's

10    cross-check immediately.  The Chamber is prepared to rule on your letter,

11    whether the threshold is met, indicated in the hearing of 25 November

12    2002, and we are prepared to proceed with this witness today.  Hopefully

13    he has not yet left The Hague.

14            May I ask the Prosecutor.

15            MR. KOUMJIAN:  He has not left The Hague.  And I'll have

16    Ms. Karper try to arrange to make sure he doesn't leave today or tomorrow

17    until we hear an answer from the Court.  We'll notify --

18            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you for this, because this has priority,

19    and we would find a possibility to hear, if necessary, this witness as

20    well.

21            MR. KOUMJIAN:  I do have one other brief matter.  Just to ask the

22    Defence if the order -- the witnesses for the first week, we were given

23    them in the order of their 65 ter number, realising that things can

24    change.  Is this the, at the moment at least, the intended order in which

25    they will be called?  It would be helpful to us, and I'm sure, the Court

Page 9635

 1    to have some idea of the order of witnesses.

 2            MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes.  We believe that is correct.

 3            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  And may I ask -- I just saw it, it reads the

 4    first week of January.  Please recall the order was related to the first

 5    working -- the first eight working days of January 2003.

 6            MR. OSTOJIC:  That's correct, Your Honour.  If the Court recalls,

 7    we start, I believe, on the 8th of January, which is three days of that

 8    week.

 9            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Right.

10            MR. OSTOJIC:  So we wouldn't have envisioned to call one of those

11    witnesses.  So that does -- it is for that first eight- to ten-day period,

12    work-day period in January.

13            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you for this clarification.  I can't see

14    any other administrative matters, so therefore may I ask the usher,

15    please, to escort the witness into the courtroom.

16            May I ask Madam Registrar to be prepared to present document S169.

17                          [The witness entered court]

18            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Good afternoon, Witness DD.  Please be seated.

19            This is a totally different environment, but the same holds true.

20    You are still protected in the same way as it was during the last two

21    days.  And no doubt you are still under solemn declaration.

22            May I ask you before starting the first -- with the first

23    questions, do you want to add anything to your testimony of yesterday?

24                          WITNESS:  WITNESS DD [Resumed]

25                          [Witness answered through interpreter].

Page 9636

 1            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters cannot hear the witness.  The

 2    interpreters cannot hear the witness.

 3            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  What's the problem?  The interpreters cannot

 4    hear the witness.  Is it resolved now?

 5            May I ask you once again to try and find out whether the mic is

 6    working now.  Do you want to add anything to your testimony of yesterday?

 7            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters cannot hear the witness.

 8            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  The interpreters can't hear you.

 9            THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness say something, please.

10            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Can you try once again to answer the question

11    whether or not you want to add something to your testimony of yesterday.

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to -- I would just like

13    to add something in response to a question that was asked of me yesterday

14    during my testimony in connection with the name of the person who held --

15    or actually holds a responsible function, a responsible office in the

16    relevant ministry.  Was that your question more or less?

17            It is possible that I didn't understand the question.  I mean, I

18    think I said I didn't know, but maybe the question was who the first man

19    in the police is in the relevant ministry, the entity ministry.

20            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  My question was related to the name of the

21    prosecutor general.

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, I see.  No, I don't know.

23            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Okay.  Thank you.

24                          Questioned by the Court:  [Continued]

25            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Witness DD, in 1992 you were the age of 22,

Page 9637

 1    correct?

 2       A.   Correct.

 3            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Did you like to play soccer in your youth, or

 4    football?

 5       A.   I was not much of a sportsman, not much of a football player, no.

 6            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Have you ever been to the Ljubija football

 7    stadium?

 8       A.   Yes, of course.

 9            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  And can you explain the environment.  Was there

10    only a football place as such?  Was there an area for other athletes as

11    well?  Was there a building for the athletes?  Please try to give us a

12    short overview of what you recall as the football stadium of Ljubija.

13       A.   Well, I don't need to recall.  It is situated in the immediate

14    vicinity of my house, and there is an adjacent building which was used

15    before as a changing room for athletes.

16            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  You said "which was used before."  And I think

17    you covered already --

18       A.   Yes.  It is still used for the same purpose, the ground floor, I

19    mean.

20            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  And in the meantime, was it used for other

21    purposes as well, this building?

22       A.   At the beginning of the war, it functioned as the seat of the

23    military police.

24            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  The entire building?

25       A.   I guess.  The building is not very large.

Page 9638

 1            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Have you been in this building during the time

 2    you were mobilised, as you said, "about seven days in 1992"?

 3       A.   No, I did not have an opportunity to be there.  This was not my --

 4    the seat where I had to go.  Or rather, there was no need for me to be

 5    there, even if I had an opportunity.

 6            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  And so was the sports grounds, as such, when the

 7    changing rooms were used by the forces you mentioned before, was it

 8    possible to play football or soccer in this area, on the place as such?

 9       A.   It is possible that it was possible to use it for this purpose,

10    but nobody cared much about football in those days.  There were no

11    physical obstacles at the stadium.  Even in those days, it was still open

12    on both sides.

13            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  What do you mean by "open on both sides"?  Is it

14    your testimony that there was no fence around the football stadium as

15    such?

16       A.   Yes, it was open.  One side of the football stadium -- on one side

17    of the football stadium is a forest, and there is no fence on that side --

18    or rather, there is some kind of fence, but it is not a continuous fence.

19    There are gaps in it, and that's how it is today, as far as I know.  As

20    for the lower part of the football stadium, there used to be a fence which

21    is actually still there, but it also has a gap -- a 10-metre gap

22    approximately, and this is all very visible, because the fence itself is

23    transparent.  It is just a wire mesh fence.

24            On the side of the road the area is not that visible.  You cannot

25    see the stadium with the naked eye.  You can see the adjacent building

Page 9639

 1    though.  And the upper side of the stadium also has an adjacent building,

 2    which is connected to the fence on the upper side, and it has a large

 3    entrance gate.

 4            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  We are covered three sides.  What about the

 5    fourth?  Was there a fence or was there a wall or something similar?

 6       A.   I believe I have described all four sides; one side being the

 7    wood, the lower side, the fence with gaps, the side next to the road as I

 8    said is not that visible.  The stadium is not visible from the side of the

 9    road with the naked eye; only the adjacent building.  And the fourth side

10    consists of this other adjacent building.  I believe I was clear.

11            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Was --

12       A.   Excuse me.  Also, you cannot see the stadium from the upper side

13    with the naked eye except when the gate is open.  It's not only my

14    opinion; it's a fact.

15            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Was there a wall on one side?

16       A.   Yes, there was a wall on the side of the road, which I described.

17    This is the physical obstacle that blocks the view of the stadium and the

18    stands, which are situated in the middle of the stadium and are somewhat

19    higher than the fence.  That is the area that I said was not visible with

20    the naked eye.  And also, from the upper side, you cannot see the stadium

21    except for when the gate is opened.  You cannot see it through this

22    adjacent building that I mentioned.

23            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Was this football stadium to the best of your

24    recollection, living very close to this area, ever used as a detention

25    facility?

Page 9640

 1       A.   The only thing I know was that at the time persons were taken

 2    there to be interviewed.  As for any lengthy stay, no, I don't think that

 3    there was any talk about that.

 4            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Were they brought to the building or to the

 5    football ground as such for this, as you called it -- in order to be

 6    interviewed?

 7       A.   I think that they were brought both to the building and to the

 8    area next to the football pitch.  Although, I never entered the premises

 9    at that time.  I was never there.  This is what I heard from other people,

10    when talking to other people.  But I personally never visited the area.  I

11    was never there, so I cannot give you a specific answer.

12            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Did you ever hear shooting from this area?

13       A.   Yes, I did.

14            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Did you ever see corpses in this area after the

15    shooting?

16       A.   No.  I didn't.  Shooting could be heard even during the day and

17    during the night intermittently, which doesn't necessarily mean that

18    people were being killed.  Though, I do not know the real answer, because

19    I was never there.

20            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  From your answer, I take it that you speak about

21    people that -- "they were brought to this area."  Who is "they"?

22       A.   Well, civilians.

23            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  And what is --

24       A.   I indicated that people were sometimes brought there.

25            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you.  May I ask the usher to present

Page 9641

 1    Exhibit number S169 to the witness.  And may it be -- please be put on the

 2    ELMO.

 3            Could you please be so kind with the help of a marker to indicate

 4    where you lived in 1992.

 5       A.   This is Ljubija here.

 6            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  May the usher please bring a dark marker to the

 7    witness that you can mark your place of residence on this map.

 8       A.   [Marks] Is this enough?

 9            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Right.  And the football stadium was where,

10    please?

11       A.   On the photograph or on the map?

12            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  On the map, please.

13       A.   Here, in this area, in the area of Ljubija town.

14            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  You have marked the place of your own residence

15    by a cross.  Could you please mark the place of the football stadium with

16    a circle on the map.

17       A.   If this is my place of residence, then the stadium is here

18    approximately.  It -- the map is much too small for me to indicate the

19    distance.

20            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you for this.  And may this Exhibit number

21    S169 with the additional marks on it be called S169A, so that we know the

22    source of these additional marks.

23            May I ask you, when you have the car before you, did you ever

24    drive with your [redacted] to Brisevo?

25       A.   No not to Brisevo?

Page 9642

 1            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  With your own car to Brisevo?

 2       A.   Not during the war operations.

 3            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Had you ever heard about a checkpoint between

 4    Brisevo and Ljubija.

 5       A.   There are several roads between Brisevo and Ljubija that can be

 6    used.  I didn't know them.  I never went to Brisevo in those days.  I

 7    never had an opportunity to go there.

 8            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Okay.  Thank you.  For the moment we don't need

 9    any longer this special map.

10            In the beginning of your testimony in chief, you mentioned that

11    there were several camps for different purposes, as you stated.  What

12    would you call a camp in this sense in the area of the municipality of

13    Prijedor?

14       A.   What camp exactly do you have in mind or generally speaking, the

15    notion of a camp?

16            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  I think we were clear enough when we discussed

17    Omarska and then you made a distinction opposed to Trnopolje.  Were there

18    other to the best of your recollection, let's call it detention

19    facilities, detention buildings -- you mentioned in the connection with

20    the football stadium that this place was used for the purpose of

21    interviewing civilians.  Were there other such places you recall?

22       A.   In the municipality of Prijedor?

23            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Right.

24       A.   I know about Keraterm, Omarska, and Trnopolje, where people were

25    detained for longer periods of time.  And I also said the Ljubija football

Page 9643

 1    stadium, when people were kept there, they were kept there only for very

 2    short, as far as I know.

 3            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  And you recall no other place in the

 4    municipality of Prijedor serving for the same purposes as, for example,

 5    the football stadium and Ljubija?

 6       A.   No, I don't remember.

 7            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  I really understand that it was difficult for

 8    you on the basis of a small picture to identify Omarska.

 9            May the usher please present document S15-18 to the witness, and

10    please put it on the ELMO.

11            Does this reproduction assist you in finding out from which side

12    you approached Omarska at that time, when you drove there with the

13    second-last bus?

14       A.   I said yesterday that it could not assist me.  I was there for the

15    first time next to this big building, and I recognised the area according

16    to the photograph, but it was ten years ago, so I don't remember.  And I

17    only stayed there very briefly.  And I'm not familiar enough with the area

18    anyway.

19            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  So it is your testimony that you saw only the

20    building from outside and you have no own direct knowledge what happened

21    inside the building, what happened on the entire area depicted here on

22    this still?  Is it correct?

23       A.   Yes, that's what I stated yesterday, and I still abide by what I

24    said because I stood only at the gate of the compound.  I didn't stray

25    away from the bus.  I didn't go inside the buildings at all, no.

Page 9644

 1            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  And to come back to another question I put to

 2    you yesterday:  Having discussed now Ljubija football stadium, Omarska,

 3    Trnopolje, what would be your categorisation of Keraterm?  What was the

 4    purpose of Keraterm in 1992 from the perspective of a civilian living in

 5    the municipality of Prijedor and for professional purposes, sometimes

 6    driving to Prijedor and being in Prijedor?

 7       A.   As I said yesterday, I know about the Keraterm camp.  I know that

 8    its purpose was to have an opportunity to control a certain number of

 9    civilians in one place.  The implication being that they did not go there

10    on their own free will.  I don't know if this is enough.

11            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  And you knew this in 1992, correct?

12       A.   I knew about this on account of the stories that I heard.  I never

13    had a chance to get closer to the camp or visit the camp itself.

14            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Correct.  This is what I understood from your

15    testimony.  But you heard about that already in 1992 from other persons

16    telling you stories they have heard from Keraterm, correct?

17       A.   Yes.  But this was only after a lot of people had already been

18    released from Omarska and Trnopolje.

19            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  May I ask you in this connection another

20    question:  On page 61, line 23 of Monday's transcript, you immediately

21    answered, when only being there for an extremely short period of time at

22    Omarska, what was the reason for you to ask whether the persons being

23    there were "physically or mentally mistreated"?  What brought you to this

24    question?

25       A.   I asked that question in Trnopolje, as far as I recall, and not in

Page 9645

 1    Omarska.  And I didn't have an opportunity to contact anyone in Omarska,

 2    anyone from the civilians who were already detained there.

 3            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  But then let me repeat the same question in

 4    relation to Trnopolje:  What was the reason?  Why did you ask this

 5    question?

 6       A.   To the individuals in Trnopolje?  Is that what you mean?

 7            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Right.

 8       A.   For purposes of information.  I wanted to see how they were

 9    treated, what was the treatment generally speaking.  I don't think it was

10    a stupid question at the time.  And it was not ill-intentioned.

11            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  I know that you answered this question already,

12    the one and the other time, but I have to come back to this.  Is it

13    correct that all in all three of your relatives were in Trnopolje?

14       A.   Two relatives and one friend, and a few acquaintances, some of

15    whom I knew better than others.

16            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  What would be your estimate, the number of

17    persons all in all who you knew at the time being in Trnopolje?

18       A.   Hard for me to say.  I really can't give you an answer to that

19    question.  I knew quite a few people there, but I wouldn't be able to give

20    you their exact number.  It would be wrong to say that I didn't know those

21    people, especially those who were from Ljubija itself.

22            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  But did you know about the ethnicity of these

23    persons?

24       A.   But of course.  Ljubija is a relatively small place.

25            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  And so were they Serbs?  Were they Croats, or

Page 9646

 1    Muslims predominantly?

 2       A.   Croats and Muslims were detained in Trnopolje.

 3            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  You mentioned that it was possible for you to

 4    bring the one or other person back to their homes when released from

 5    Trnopolje.  What about the three persons you mentioned just beforehand,

 6    the two relatives and the one friend?  They were all released on the basis

 7    of Serbian guarantees?  Correct?

 8       A.   I already answered that question to the Prosecutor, if I can

 9    remember.  I took my friend home personally.  I don't know who signed the

10    release documents for him.  His wife kept it a secret.  She came with me

11    to pick him up.  At the end of the day, I wasn't that interested in

12    finding out who had signed the document.  The most important thing was for

13    him to go home, obviously.

14            As for one of my uncles, it was my father who was the guarantor,

15    and he escorted him home.  I don't know how they then went to Prijedor,

16    and from Prijedor to Ljubija they travelled on a local bus which had

17    already started running between the two places.

18            And the third person, my other uncle, got the guarantee from a

19    taxi driver whom I don't know.  I only know that there was some

20    compensation, some money involved in that.  And that same taxi driver

21    brought my uncle home.  My uncle never told me how much he had to pay for

22    that.  He always shrugged it off and always said, "It doesn't really

23    matter.  What matters is that I'm now home."  That is what I know

24    personally about these three men.  I don't know about others, whether they

25    had to have the written guarantees of relatives, Serbs, friends, Serbs, or

Page 9647

 1    maybe they had to pay for that.

 2            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  May I ask you:  Did you ever discuss with these

 3    three persons, especially with those you escorted home yourself, about

 4    that what happened to them and to others in Trnopolje?  Did they speak

 5    about any beatings or other violence vis-a-vis detainees?

 6       A.   No.  They didn't tell me.  I did ask them, and they said that

 7    during the short time that they had been in Trnopolje, nothing like that

 8    had happened.  So we didn't talk much about that period of time.  I didn't

 9    really find it necessary to talk too much about that.  The most important

10    thing was that they were home, that they were free.  And now, after so

11    much time has gone by, we really don't talk about it.  It never occurs to

12    us to reminisce on those times.

13            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  But wouldn't you yourself find it surprising

14    that when coming first to such a camp, you immediately asked what about

15    "physical or mental mistreatment"?  And then, later on having the

16    possibility to discuss this with your relative and friend, or you didn't

17    discuss this at all?  Is really your testimony under solemn declaration

18    that you never discussed these questions and you never heard about

19    beatings and other kind of violence in Trnopolje camp?

20       A.   I've already said that the first time I met with them, I asked

21    them how they were, how they were treated.  I said that yesterday and the

22    day before.  They answered, "The conditions are not ideal.  The food is

23    not good.  Their accommodation is very poor.  Some sleep on beds, some

24    sleep on the floor."  And they also said that nobody was beating them or

25    otherwise ill-treating them.  That's what my cousins told me later on when

Page 9648

 1    we got home.  We never discussed it again.

 2            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  And you never discussed with them the name of

 3    Kuruzovic?

 4       A.   Maybe then at that time, but not later on.  If we don't talk about

 5    things, we can't mention any names, can we?  If they don't want to talk

 6    about it, if they do not want to dwell upon it, why should I insist on

 7    that?  Why should I be interested in talking about it?

 8            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Quite clear.  But you answered, "Maybe then at

 9    that time."  You are under solemn declaration, and I have to insist,

10    please answer the question.  Did you discuss the name of -- the

11    personality of Mr. Kuruzovic with one or all the three of them?

12       A.   I can't remember.  It was a long time ago.  It was ten years ago.

13    I really did not expect such questions, which doesn't imply that I'm not

14    prepared to answer them.  I myself mentioned Trnopolje.  Already the day

15    before yesterday I told you how I got there the first time, the second

16    time, and the third time.  If the Defence counsel had not asked me that, I

17    would have mentioned it anyway.

18            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  My final question would be:  Who do you believe

19    was not the Urije, but on the basis of the title, the main political

20    responsible person in Prijedor municipality and on what factual basis do

21    you come to this assessment?

22       A.   I can't give you an answer to that.  I know that there were some

23    military officers as representatives of the military.  One of them was

24    Colonel Arsic.  Then there was Radmilo Zeljaja.  I believe that his rank

25    was also colonel.  The late Simo Drljaca, who was the chief of the police.

Page 9649

 1    And there were also people from the civilian authorities.  Those people

 2    had most influence at that time.

 3            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  So that the transcript is clear and unambiguous,

 4    it reads now, "There were also people from the civilian authorities.

 5    Those people had most influence at that time."  Could you please comment

 6    on this.  And as you did it in relation to military personnel, what were

 7    the persons in civilian authorities you recall at that time, 1992?

 8       A.   I remember Mr. Srdjo Srdic, for example.  Allegedly he was a

 9    representative in the People's Assembly.  There was also Mr. Simo

10    Miskovic.  I don't know what his position was.  The late Dr. Kovacevic.

11    Again, I don't know what his position was at the time.  These -- this is

12    my answer, but I only learnt that later on, after the war.  At that time I

13    was not aware of all this.

14            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Finally, in -- when you escorted the bus on its

15    way first to Omarska and then to Prijedor, in which capacity did you act

16    at that time?

17       A.   On the road first to Omarska and then to Trnopolje, not to

18    Prijedor, I was an escort.

19            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  And we learned that you were at that time [redacted]

20    [redacted].  Did you act as [redacted]--

21       A.   That is correct, yes.

22            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  And who asked you to act as [redacted]

23    and why was it necessary to have [redacted]acting as an escort

24    on a bus to a camp?

25       A. [redacted], but I was off duty.  My shift was 48 hours,

Page 9650

 1    and then I would be off for the following 48 hours.  On that particular

 2    day I was off duty and one of the military came by my house and saw me,

 3    saw me that I was free, that I wasn't doing anything.  I can't remember

 4    who it was.  They had already seen the other [redacted]

 5    performing his regular duties.  Then they ordered me to come with them.

 6            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  And you volunteered?

 7       A.   I went for purely safety reasons, for my own safety.

 8            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  So it's your testimony that you were compelled

 9    to do so?

10       A.   I wouldn't say I was compelled or forced to go.  They simply told

11    me, "You are coming with us."  I could have refused, but I feared the

12    possible consequences.

13            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  So taking all the time together you spent there

14    in the Brdo area when the targeted persons were collected and brought to

15    the buses and then brought first in part to Omarska and then later to

16    Trnopolje, how many hours did this take from the first bus to the last

17    bus?  You told us that you observed this entire exodus.

18       A.   I know that that operation lasted from approximately 10.00 or

19    11.00 in the morning until 3.00 in the afternoon.  But I arrived later,

20    and then I got on my bus.  I did not participate in the operation of

21    gathering people.

22            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you.

23            Judge Vassylenko, please.

24            JUDGE VASSYLENKO:  Witness DD, you testified about three

25    incidents, the incident in Hambarine, Kozarac, and Prijedor, which took

Page 9651

 1    place between the 22nd of May -- 22nd of May and 30th of May, 1992.  Where

 2    had you been when these incidents occurred?

 3       A.   At home.  The third incident happened on the 30th of May.  That is

 4    when I was for the first time assigned to provide a security for the

 5    police building in Ljubija, on that same evening.

 6            JUDGE VASSYLENKO:  Next question:  Did you personally know at

 7    least some persons involved in these incidents?

 8       A.   I already said that I knew some people in the first incident, that

 9    is, on the 21st of May.  And as for the others, no.

10            JUDGE VASSYLENKO:  And whom did you know?

11       A.   I knew the persons who fell victim to the accident in the car on

12    the 21st of May.  I didn't know all of them.  I knew three of them, three

13    of the six.

14            JUDGE VASSYLENKO:  Can you name them.

15       A.   Sinisa Mijatovic, who was injured; Miroslav Lulic, who is now

16    dead.  He subsequently committed suicide.  And Nedeljko Antunovic.  I

17    believe that he was also injured at that time -- I'm sorry, Sinisa

18    Mijatovic and Ratko Milojica were injured.  I didn't know Ratko Milojica

19    at the time.  I also didn't know the late Lukic and the other Milojica.

20            JUDGE VASSYLENKO:  Did these persons belong to the army or the

21    police or paramilitary formations?

22       A.   The military.

23            JUDGE VASSYLENKO:  Next question:  While visiting Trnopolje camp

24    for the second time with the purpose to see your friend, had you a chance

25    to contact your relatives detained in the camp?

Page 9652

 1       A.   I've already said that I did have contacts with all of them, with

 2    both my cousins and the friend, and I've already said it.  I've said it

 3    several times.  And I've already told you what we were talking about, what

 4    was the reason for which I went there.  I did have contacts with them.  I

 5    told them how they were, how they were treated, and so on and so forth.

 6            JUDGE VASSYLENKO:  And one more on the last question:  Have you or

 7    your father ever tried to reach municipal authorities in order to get your

 8    relatives released?

 9       A.   I didn't.  And as for my father, I don't know.  I can't speak for

10    my father.  I only know that my father put his name on the guarantee for

11    one of my uncles.  I really can't tell you who he might have contacted.  I

12    really don't know.  This wasn't important at the time.  The most important

13    thing for us was for my relatives to get home.  How this was to be done

14    was of minor importance.

15            JUDGE VASSYLENKO:  Very well.  I have no more questions.

16            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Judge Argibay, please.

17            JUDGE ARGIBAY:  Good afternoon, sir.  I have two or three very

18    simple questions.

19       A.   Good afternoon.

20            JUDGE ARGIBAY:  I hope you can that answer very shortly.

21            As a person who has done your military service, were you aware

22    that the army had barracks in Prijedor and that that was the place for a

23    brigade who was first number 43, I think, and then 143, and then 343?

24    Were you aware of the existence of that brigade?

25       A.   I was aware of the existence of that brigade.  The barracks

Page 9653

 1    were --

 2            JUDGE ARGIBAY:  Okay.  Just stop there.  And then I'll continue.

 3    Because if not, you are going to give an explanation that I don't need.

 4            Do you know how many men composed that brigade?

 5       A.   I don't know.  There were also reserve soldiers who had been

 6    mobilised, so I wouldn't be able to give you the number of the men in the

 7    brigade.

 8            JUDGE ARGIBAY:  I don't know the exact number.  More or less.

 9    Would you tell me there were 500, 1000, more than 1000?

10       A.   I really can't tell you.  I don't know the number.  Whatever I

11    might tell you, I'm afraid would be wrong.  I know that the brigade was

12    rather large.  And given the fact that it was a brigade -- a brigade

13    usually has a certain number of men in it.  It has a certain strength.  I

14    don't know how much it is.

15            JUDGE ARGIBAY:  Okay.  Then just turning to those episodes or

16    those events that you were talking earlier in your testimony just some

17    days ago.  You told us for the incident in Hambarine of the name and

18    number of soldiers that were wounded or dead.  And then after, you told us

19    about the driver who was killed in the Kozarac - I'm sorry for the

20    pronunciation of the names - in the Kozarac incident two days afterwards.

21    And then you told us that there was a false -- an attack by Bosniak forces

22    on Prijedor on May 30th.  Correct?  And you said that this force that

23    attacked Prijedor was around 200 men.  You told us so, this in the

24    transcript on the first day.

25            And I want to ask you:  Do you know - you were very well informed

Page 9654

 1    over these events and the incidents - do you know what arms this group of

 2    200 men had?

 3       A.   I assume that they had their personal infantry long-barrel weapons

 4    or side weapons.  I really don't know.  They had automatic weapons,

 5    semi-automatic weapons.

 6            JUDGE ARGIBAY:  Did they have tanks?

 7       A.   As far as I know, they didn't.

 8            JUDGE ARGIBAY:  Trucks?

 9       A.   I wouldn't be sure about trucks.

10            JUDGE ARGIBAY:  Rockets?

11       A.   Rockets and zoljas.

12            JUDGE ARGIBAY:  Okay.  And the last one, if I may:  Do you

13    remember what road did you take from your city to Prijedor hospital when

14    you were driving some ill person to Prijedor?  Do you remember the road?

15       A.   There's just one road.  There is just that one shortest route from

16    my place to Prijedor, which is about 12 kilometres.

17            JUDGE ARGIBAY:  Okay.  And inside the city of Prijedor, you have

18    the same road to go to the hospital?

19       A.   Through Prijedor there are obviously several streets one can

20    take.  I mostly took one way or one route.  If I had a map, I could show

21    you that that route went by Prijedor hotel, by the Orthodox church, by a

22    place called Ereza.  Then the police building, the building of the

23    municipal assembly.

24            JUDGE ARGIBAY:  Okay.

25       A.   And then on towards Ravno.

Page 9655

 1            JUDGE ARGIBAY:  That's enough.

 2            Just listening to you, and you just answer my next question, that

 3    you passed the police offices building on your way to the Prijedor

 4    hospital.  Have you ever seen queues of people in front of that building

 5    in the period we are talking about?  That means -- you were [redacted]

 6    [redacted] from June 1992 on.  Let's say from June 1992 to September 1992,

 7    have you ever seen queues of people -- lines of people in front of the

 8    police building in Prijedor?

 9            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  The words [redacted]please be redacted

10    from the transcript.  Thank you.

11            JUDGE ARGIBAY:  Oh, sorry.

12       A.   Thank you.  I understand your question, but I can't remember.  I

13    can't give you an answer to this question.  Maybe I didn't pay too much

14    attention to any such thing.

15            JUDGE ARGIBAY:  Thank you.

16            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  May I ask Defence counsel, any questions in re?

17            MR. OSTOJIC:  With the Court's permission, I do, Your Honour.

18            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Then before we have the break, we need some

19    clarification.  Did we find out whether or not there was such a letter as

20    indicated by Defence counsel?

21            MR. KOUMJIAN:  We found a copy of a letter that was sent on the

22    4th of December.  Apparently it was in Ms. Korner's office and apparently

23    it was delivered after she was away.

24            I'll give the Court our copy.  And I do have some comments about

25    the contents, but it will be --

Page 9656

 1            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  But we have to -- immediately to decide whether

 2    or not this witness can leave The Hague or not.

 3            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Well, I would just indicate briefly that that

 4    witness is not mentioned in the letter.  Two other witnesses are, and that

 5    witness is not.

 6            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  What is the response by the Defence?

 7            MR. OSTOJIC:  I know I spoke to Ms. Joanna Korner on Friday of

 8    last week.  I know that she received my correspondence.  I know that I

 9    faxed them to the registry and copied the Court, specifically responding

10    to the two letters I received from the OTP.  If the Court even examines

11    the December 4th, 2002, letter, it has one name initially, and that is

12    Witness Q.  We responded in kind with respect to Witness Q.

13            Subsequently, we received another fax.  It was not addressed to

14    anyone personally.  It starts with -- the introduction, sir, is we

15    specifically and I specifically recall that we addressed it directly to

16    Ms. Korner, because she's the one who gave us the letter.  In response --

17    what we did was respond to Witness Q and thereafter respond with respect

18    to the two witnesses who will be brought in early or mid-January 2003.

19            We responded also with respect to Witness number 21, Muharem

20    Murselovic, and spoke with Ms. Joanna Korner specifically about that.  I

21    believe it was Thursday evening or Friday evening when I met with her when

22    she exchanged the tapes of the Rule 68 disclosures in B/C/S so that our

23    client for the first time can have access to review them.

24            At that time I informed her, as I'm sure that she'll recall, that

25    we will not be seeking, having spoken with our client and the rest of the

Page 9657

 1    Defence team, to be speaking further questions from Witness Q.  Likewise,

 2    at that time, I informed her that we would, if this witness, who is

 3    scheduled to arrive on the 11th of December, based upon my recollection,

 4    in order to commence his testimony in the Brdjanin trial.  He was going to

 5    be here mid-week this week.  And had indicated to her that we would have

 6    some questions, if permitted by the Court, to address that.

 7            Also, when we were asked specifically in connection with this,

 8    these issues, the Court asked me on Monday specifically in connection with

 9    Witness Q, who apparently, according to the letter had representations

10    made to us, was arriving that week, scheduled to testify.  It was not a

11    question that the witness was going to be testifying on one day and

12    immediately leave the day after.  Nevertheless, we informed Ms. Korner we

13    think in ample time that we would not be seeking her testimony any further

14    in this case.

15            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Sorry to interrupt you.  We don't want to reopen

16    discussion of the past.  We are discussing now in concreto Witness Muharem

17    Murselovic.  And it reads from the letter by -- from the Prosecution,

18    addressed to Mr. Branko Lukic and to Mr. John Ostojic that this person

19    would be available on 11 December, and the threshold has been indicated

20    several times to the Defence.

21            So may I ask you:  Is it your intention to hear Mr. Murselovic

22    today and on the basis of which questions?  I don't have anything in

23    writing, and it's really surprising to find out that we have two answers

24    from your side making reference to the three others but not to

25    Mr. Murselovic.

Page 9658

 1            MR. OSTOJIC:  Specifically, we addressed that in our

 2    correspondence to the OTP, as well as orally.  Our letter was almost

 3    identical as theirs was in response to Witness Q.  Surprising to me that

 4    the Court doesn't have it.  I sent the letters out personally.  With

 5    respect to Witness Murselovic, we would like to ask him questions based

 6    upon information that we learned from the Rule 68 tapes.

 7            Mr. Murselovic, as the Court may know, stated on page 2.675 of his

 8    testimony that he was active politically within the municipality of

 9    Prijedor and was an assemblyman.  His name is also mentioned within some

10    of the individuals that were the Rule 68 disclosures known to them

11    personally of this witness.  They can enlighten us or he can enlighten us,

12    since he continues to testify on page 2.815 of his deposition -- of his

13    testimony that he considers the first three to be the most powerful

14    politicians in Prijedor.

15            I would like to ask him further questions regarding those three

16    people which he identifies on page 2.815 - and this is a summary that I'm

17    reading from.  I apologise if it's not directly accurate, but I believe

18    that it is quite accurate -- he identifies Simo Miskovic, Dragan

19    Savanovic, and Srdjo Srdic.  Those three individuals who have provided the

20    OTP with interviews, I would like to ask Mr. Murselovic further questions

21    about those three individuals, as well as further questions regarding his

22    relationship while an elected assemblyman in Prijedor during the same time

23    that these individuals were also elected assemblymen.

24            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  I hereby invite one representative of each party

25    and a representative of the registrar for 4.00 sharp in my office.

Page 9659












12  Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13  English transcripts. Pages 9659 to 9662.













Page 9663

1            We have to continue with the re-examination of the Witness DD.

 2    And for this purpose, the trial stays adjourned until twenty minutes past

 3    4.00.

 4                          --- Recess taken at 3.53 p.m.

 5                          --- On resuming at 4.31 p.m.

 6            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  May we continue with the re-examination of

 7    Witness DD, please.

 8            MR. OSTOJIC:  May I proceed, Your Honour?

 9            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  I ask you to do so.

10            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11                          Further examination by Mr. Ostojic:

12       Q.   Witness DD, I have a couple of points that I'd like to perhaps

13    clarify with you for my own purposes.  Can I ask you when was the first

14    time that you first learned of the Keraterm camp?

15       A.   At the time when the military activity was going on in the month

16    of June 1992, thereabouts.

17       Q.   Tell me, if you will, did you learn anything else about that

18    facility, such as whether things were taking place there, violent things,

19    at or about that time?

20       A.   It was at that time that I heard of the Keraterm camp, but I

21    learned later on that there had been violence as well on the part of

22    irresponsible individuals.  I believe I stated that yesterday or the day

23    before.

24       Q.   Can you -- and I apologise if you did state it yesterday.  I don't

25    have it necessarily in my notes.  Tell me when you learned, given the

Page 9664

 1    month and the year, of any violence that may have occurred at the Keraterm

 2    detention centre.

 3       A.   I believe it was the end of 1992 when people were -- some of the

 4    people were released home from Keraterm.

 5       Q.   Thank you.  And is it fair to say that prior to that time you did

 6    not learn or hear of any such activities?

 7       A.   I don't think I did.  I don't know how long those persons were in

 8    Keraterm.  I don't know when it ceased to operate.  I'm not sure whether

 9    it was in late summer.

10       Q.   Let me ask you, with the Court's permission, Witness DD, a

11    question asked by Your Honour regarding responsible persons in the

12    Prijedor municipality.  Now, you mentioned several military and police,

13    and then you mentioned several of the civilian authorities, and you also

14    suggested, I believe, based on my notes, that those persons were most

15    influential.

16            Can you help me understand that answer and tell me who, sir, did

17    you mean when you stated "those persons were most influential."  Which

18    persons are you talking about, the military, the police, civilian, all

19    three, or any combination of the three?

20       A.   Well, I assume I meant the persons who held the most responsible

21    functions, including the military, police functions.  I did hear about

22    civilians as well.  I stated their names.  I didn't know any of them

23    personally.  I heard that they held certain responsible functions, offices

24    within the municipal civilian structure.  I don't know exactly what

25    offices they had.  I heard that Mr. Srdjo Srdic was the deputy of the

Page 9665

 1    National Assembly.  I knew about his function.  I didn't know about the

 2    other two.  And obviously these individuals had more authority than myself

 3    and other ordinary citizens.

 4       Q.   One final question, if I may.

 5            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 6       Q.   One final question, if I may.  Having lived there and made the

 7    observations that you shared with us, can you tell me which of those three

 8    in your opinion, sir, would have the most influence as to what was going

 9    on and occurring in Prijedor in the spring and summer of 1992?  Namely,

10    was it the military that had the most influence as to those action or

11    crimes that were committed, the political establishment, the politicians,

12    or the police?

13       A.   Well, I assume if you're talking about the conflict at the

14    beginning of the war, that it must have been the military that had the

15    most influence.  It was the soldiers who took people into custody.  I

16    never heard of any civilian having taken anyone to custody or to the camp.

17            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  That's all I have.

18            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Just a few questions following up.

19                          Further cross-examination by Mr. Koumjian:

20       Q.   Sir, you discussed with His Honour Judge Schomburg the trip to

21    Omarska and the route that you took.  That bus trip from the Brdo area to

22    Omarska, you arrived on a regular paved road; is that correct?

23       A.   Yes.  It was an asphalt road connecting Rizvanovici and Biscani

24    and Prijedor and further on towards Omarska.  And we took the main road to

25    go to Omarska, in the direction of Banja Luka.  At Nisevici we turned

Page 9666

 1    towards Omarska - I don't know to what extent you're familiar with the

 2    area - and we came back from Omarska and then to Trnopolje via Petrov Gaj.

 3       Q.   Thank you.  Regarding the military police that were guarding the

 4    stadium at Ljubija, can you tell us the uniforms that they wore, what

 5    those uniforms looked like.

 6       A.   Those were military uniforms.  Some had camouflage uniforms and

 7    some had plain olive-drab uniforms, the so-called SMB uniform with white

 8    belts.

 9       Q.   When you escorted the bus to Omarska and Trnopolje were you given

10    a uniform and a weapon; one or both?

11       A.   I had, as far as I can remember, the upper part of my clothing was

12    olive-grey, and I had camouflage trousers that I had taken from my father,

13    because I had not been issued with these military uniforms.  And I also

14    had my father's rifle with me, the one that he had been given as a member

15    of the reserve military force, because I didn't have any personal weapons

16    at the time, any long-barrel weapon, rifle, I mean.

17       Q.   And are we in private session any just want to double-check.  No.

18            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Let's go into private session, please.

19                          [Private session]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted]

Page 9667

 1  [redacted]

 2  [redacted]

 3  [redacted]

 4  [redacted]

 5  [redacted]

 6  [redacted]

 7  [redacted]

 8  [redacted]

 9  [redacted]

10  [redacted]

11  [redacted]

12  [redacted]

13  [redacted]

14  [redacted]

15  [redacted]

16  [redacted]

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23                          [Open session]

24            MR. KOUMJIAN:

25       Q.   Sir, so it's correct, isn't it, that during 1992 there were people

Page 9668

 1    of Serb nationality -- there were many people of Serb nationality who

 2    tried to protect their Muslim and Croat neighbours, who disagreed with the

 3    persecutions and the crimes that were happening against them?  This wasn't

 4    the Serbian people of Prijedor doing this.  This was specific

 5    individuals.  Correct?

 6       A.   Well, I assume not the person who signed the papers of their own

 7    free will.  Maybe those who had some interest in signing such documents,

 8    they -- they did that.  There are all kinds of people, you know.

 9       Q.   I'm sorry.  Maybe I wasn't clear, but there were many people, many

10    Serbian people, who disagreed with the crimes against their neighbours and

11    who tried to protect Muslim and Croat neighbours, correct?

12       A.   Of course there were such people.  I don't know their number.  I

13    wouldn't be able to tell you the percentage either.  I don't personally

14    know any such information.

15       Q.   Is it correct, though, that the atmosphere was such in Prijedor

16    and the atmosphere with the authorities that it was understandable that a

17    woman, like the one we just spoke about in private session, would want to

18    keep that name of that particular person who had helped her secret,

19    because for some people, for some Serbs it was dangerous for it to be

20    known that they helped their neighbours?

21       A.   I guess that it was so.  I don't know why they kept it secret.

22    Again, as I said, I was not interested in knowing that.  What was

23    important was for this friend to be able to go back home.

24       Q.   From your position that you've talked about, the power of the

25    military, it's your position, as I understand it, that the military could

Page 9669

 1    choose who would be the leader of the civilian government; is that

 2    correct?

 3       A.   I have said that it was the military who took over in a peaceful

 4    way, and it is my assumption, which does not have to be correct, that they

 5    were in the position to elect the civilian authorities until somebody

 6    would be put in that position.  That's my assumption.  I wouldn't be able

 7    to tell you the correct -- or the appropriate answer.

 8            If the military was influential, especially some of its officers,

 9    then they might have had influence on the civilian authorities as well.

10       Q.   I understand you've been testifying based upon your assumptions of

11    what was occurring in Prijedor.  So you would assume that if a civilian

12    leader was not cooperating, the military would have removed that leader,

13    correct?

14       A.   I don't know.  It may have been so.  From the position that I am

15    in, I wouldn't be able to tell you.  As for Dr. Stakic, maybe it wasn't

16    the military who appointed him.  Maybe it was not the military who told

17    him, "You're just going to be a figure person and you're going to have to

18    say whatever -- do whatever we tell you to do."  I don't know whether

19    it -- whether that happened in that way.

20       Q.   Sir, were you aware of public interviews by Colonel Arsic,

21    television interviews, for example, where he said he kept the civilian

22    authorities very well informed about military matters in Prijedor, and are

23    you aware of public interviews by Dr. Stakic where he indicated that

24    cooperation between the civilian and military authorities in Prijedor was

25    very good?

Page 9670

 1       A.   I'm not familiar with such interviews.  I've already told you that

 2    I was not interested in the media, especially immediately upon the

 3    breakout of the war.  I wasn't following the media almost at all.

 4       Q.   As a person living in Prijedor, during the period from May through

 5    September of 1992, did you see any evidence, and if so, please explain it

 6    to us, any evidence of conflict between the military, police, and civilian

 7    authorities in Prijedor?

 8       A.   I can't remember any such evidence.  I wasn't interested in the

 9    political situation.  I wasn't into politics at all.

10            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I have no further

11    questions.

12            Just for the Court's information, the interview -- okay.  Sorry. I

13    have no further questions.  Thank you.

14            MR. OSTOJIC:  No further questions.

15            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  This concludes the testimony of Witness DD.

16            May I finally ask you:  Did you, when coming to The Hague, feel

17    under some pressure by whomsoever to be quite precise?  This is not

18    related at all to the Defence -- but under pressure of other persons

19    living together with you in Ljubija or other persons you are working with

20    or you're a subordinate to?

21            MR. KOUMJIAN:  We are in open session, Your Honour?

22            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Let us hear the answer in closed session -- in

23    not closed session.  It will be too difficult.  In private session.

24            MR. OSTOJIC:  Your Honour, if I may be heard.  The Defence has a

25    position.  We would like it in open session.  Just, I want on the record

Page 9671

 1    to note our position on that.

 2            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  May I ask the witness:  Do you believe it would

 3    help you to answer the question truthfully when we hear your answer in

 4    private session?  Will it assist you in answering my question?

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can easily give it in an open

 6    session.

 7            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Then please do so.

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not experience any political

 9    pressures either in my institutions -- institution where I work or by any

10    of my neighbours, citizens of Ljubija, or anybody else.  I came here of my

11    own will, nobody persuaded me to come here -- and "here," I mean the

12    gentlemen from the Defence, regardless of the circumstances that may have

13    prevented me from coming here.

14            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  You only should know that whenever you feel it

15    necessary to add something or to clarify something, it is open for you to

16    contact the Court in writing or through the Defence if you feel it

17    necessary.  Thank you for coming.  This concludes --

18            MR. KOUMJIAN:  May I, Your Honour, ask if the Court cares to

19    inquire.  The OTP would like to permission of the witness to disclose his

20    transcript in other cases, specifically the Brdjanin case.

21            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Do you understand the question?  Do you agree

22    that your transcript is used as well in one or other cases, especially the

23    case Prosecutor versus Mr. Brdjanin in order to avoid that you have to

24    appear a second time here in The Hague?  Do you agree?

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is up to you, Your Honours, to

Page 9672

 1    decide whether my testimony is relevant.  As I've already told you, I'm

 2    here of my own will to help the Honourable Court to come to the truth

 3    regardless of the final outcome of this procedure.

 4            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Sorry.  You didn't answer my question.

 5            Do you agree that your testimony is used in other cases on the

 6    basis of the transcript you can see before you as well?  This is one rule

 7    aiming at -- that the witness has not to appear another time in The

 8    Hague.  Do you agree that this transcript, that what is written down from

 9    your testimony, is used in other cases as well?

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assume that the transcript will

11    protect my identity.  And if that is the case, I don't have any objections

12    to the transcript being used as an exhibit in any other trial.

13            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you.  Then this is accepted under the same

14    protective measures as applicable during this testimony.

15            Thank you for coming.

16            May I ask the usher to escort the witness out of the courtroom.

17            Wait a moment.

18            Is my understanding that also the next witness appears under

19    pseudonym?

20            MR. OSTOJIC:  That is correct, Your Honour.

21            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  This would be then DE.  And also voice and face

22    distortion.

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to make a correction,

24    if I may.

25            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  We'll reopen the testimony of Witness DD.

Page 9673

 1            Please.

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to make a correction

 3    about my personal data.  The Defence counsel asked me the day before

 4    yesterday about my marital status, and my answer was that I was married

 5    and a father of one child.  Are we still in private session, Your Honour?

 6            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  No.  But if need may be and there are no

 7    objections - I don't believe - then we'll go, please, in private session.

 8                          [Private session]

 9  [redacted]

10  [redacted]

11  [redacted]

12  [redacted]

13  [redacted]

14  [redacted]

15  [redacted]

16  [redacted]

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22                          [Open session]

23            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  During the break, in the framework of a 65 ter

24    (I) meeting, the minutes will follow.  We discussed the question of

25    whether or not to hear Witness Murselovic another time in this case.  The

Page 9674

 1    factual basis is the following:  That it is a submission of the Defence

 2    and we have no reasonable doubts - that is a fact - that the Defence has

 3    sent another letter to the Office of the Prosecutor and asking for copies

 4    to be sent to the Judges.  We didn't receive the second letter, and we

 5    didn't receive the third letter, but -- and we didn't receive until now

 6    concrete questions, as we stated, the 25th of November, 2002, questions --

 7    concrete questions to be demonstrated by the Defence that they were not

 8    able to put to the witnesses when they had been here in The Hague and that

 9    these new questions are emanating from the statements missing at that

10    point in time.

11            We had to balance the interests of all the participants, and we

12    feel an absolutely uncomfortable situation if not in a situation where we

13    are compelled to act as we act now, that we want to avoid any kind of

14    prejudice for witness, and therefore we asked the Office of the Prosecutor

15    to call Mr. Muharem Murselovic another time, tomorrow 9.00.  But the

16    Defence should not believe that in future we will act on this same basis,

17    in this same way.  This is only a measure to protect the interest of

18    Mr. Murselovic.

19            MR. KOUMJIAN:  May I just ask, I'm not sure of the timing of

20    flights, but it might be helpful to VWU to have a time estimate for the

21    examination.  If we're starting at 9.00, he could possibly still leave

22    later.

23            MR. OSTOJIC:  I do not -- I do not believe my questions will be

24    more than an hour.

25            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Please be aware that we will limit the

Page 9675

 1    questions, question by question, on relevance.  But I think you have got a

 2    concrete answer, and maybe there will be questions emanating from this

 3    line of question from your side and also from the side of the Judges.

 4    Thank you.

 5            Then in order to avoid such, let's call it, incident another time,

 6    I have to ask the Defence to prepare concrete questions for the other

 7    witnesses.  I don't want to mention names.  I'm not totally sure on the

 8    safe side whether they were protected or not -- number 2 and number 3 in

 9    the Prosecution's letter of 4 December.  If there is intention to hear

10    these witnesses another time in cross-examination, please produce the

11    questions you believe to be necessary no later than 8 January 2003.  And I

12    would ask the parties to cross-check whether or not in fact all the

13    statements or the proffers for the witnesses before us are ready.

14            Defence Witness 015, this is related to the number -- the 65 ter

15    number.  But admittedly I haven't seen yet a proffer for Defence Witness

16    number 15 on the list provided for us by the registry.  This would be 65

17    ter number 26 on the Defence list.

18            May we now proceed with Witness DE, and may I ask the usher to

19    bring this witness into the courtroom.

20            MR. OSTOJIC:  If I may have the floor, Your Honour, just in

21    connection with --

22            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Yes.  Please proceed.

23            MR. OSTOJIC:  I apologise.  I have the deadline.  Thank you.  We

24    do expect to ask leave to question the other two individuals, and we will

25    provide the Court with written questions on or before January 8th, 2003.

Page 9676

 1    My only request would be that those questions do not be tendered to the

 2    Office of the Prosecutor, as they're considered work product.  And I would

 3    hate to have those questions be shared with any particular witness prior

 4    to their testimony.

 5                          [The witness entered court]

 6            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  We will rule on this later.

 7            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  First of all, good afternoon, witness.  Sir, may

 9    I ask you to give your solemn declaration.

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

11    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12                          WITNESS:  WITNESS DE

13                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

14            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you.  You may sit down.  And only that you

15    know that you are called Witness or Witness DE.  This is not an act of

16    non-courtesy, but it's just for your own protection on the request by the

17    Defence.

18            The floor is for the Defence.

19            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20                          Examined by Mr. Ostojic:

21       Q.   Good evening, Witness DE.  My name is John Ostojic, and along with

22    Danilo Cirkovic, we represent Dr. Milomir Stakic.  I'm going to ask you a

23    series of questions here today, sir.  In connection with the events that

24    occurred in the spring and summer of 1992.  If at any time you do not

25    understand my question or would like me to clarify, please state so and I

Page 9677

 1    will attempt to do so.  Fair enough?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3            MR. OSTOJIC:  With the Court's permission, we'd like to ask the

 4    usher to show the witness a piece of paper which has some information on

 5    it.

 6       Q.   Witness DE, you were given a piece of paper by the usher.  Does

 7    that paper bear your first and last name?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9            MR. OSTOJIC:  With the Court's permission, we'd like to admit that

10    paper as the next Defence exhibit.

11            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  It would be D42, correct?  Admitted into

12    evidence, D42.

13            MR. OSTOJIC:  Also, Your Honour, I apologise but perhaps obviously

14    it will be confidential, correct?  Just so the record is clear.  Thank

15    you.

16       Q.   Witness DE, if I may proceed.  Can you give us your date of birth.

17       A.   2nd of January, 1986 [as interpreted].

18       Q.   Help me just to understand.  Perhaps I didn't hear you that well.

19    Is it 1986 or 1976?

20       A.   No, 1976 -- a 7.

21            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  And may I ask, the 2nd or the 3rd of January?

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 2nd January.

23            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you for this clarification.

24            MR. OSTOJIC:

25       Q.   Can you tell us, where were you born?

Page 9678

 1       A.   I was born in Gornja Ravska village, Prijedor municipality.

 2       Q.   Could you tell us generally where do you reside presently.

 3       A.   Currently I live in Raljas near Ljubija.

 4       Q.   And in what municipality does that fall -- that town fall under?

 5       A.   Prijedor.

 6       Q.   A couple background questions.  Are you presently married?

 7       A.   I am married.  I am a father of one child.

 8       Q.   Forgive me for asking this question, sir:  Can you share with us

 9    what your ethnic background is.

10       A.   Croat.  That is my ethnic background.

11       Q.   And your wife, what is her ethnic background?

12       A.   Likewise, she is a Croat.

13       Q.   And share with me, if you will, if both your parents, mother and

14    father, are also Croatian?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   In the spring and summer of 1992, can you share with us the town

17    in which you lived, the name of the town.

18       A.   I lived in Gornja Ravska, Prijedor municipality.

19            MR. OSTOJIC:  With the Court's permission, if we can have the

20    usher show the witness Exhibit S1.

21            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  [Microphone not activated] Please do so.

22            MR. OSTOJIC:  If the usher would be kind enough to place it on the

23    ELMO so that all of us can view it together.

24            With the Court' permission, if we can just go further back to get

25    the complete picture, a little more.  That would be fine.

Page 9679

 1       Q.   Witness DE, I asked you where you were born, where you currently

 2    reside.

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   And where you lived in the spring and summer of 1992.  Just so

 5    that I have a clear record, in what municipality did you live in in the

 6    spring and summer of 1992?

 7       A.   Prijedor municipality.

 8       Q.   The exhibit or map that you're looking at for our purposes that's

 9    been identified as S1.  Does the town in which you lived in in the spring

10    and summer of 1992 appear on that map?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Can you show us with the pointer that the usher will hand you

13    where that town is.

14       A.   [Indicates]

15       Q.   Just so the record is clear, the witness is pointing to an area

16    which is marked approximately with the letter "G.  Ravska" -- I'm sorry, I

17    can't see it.  R--a-v-s-k-a, Ravska, correct?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   In the spring and summer of 1992, you were how old?

20       A.   I was 16.

21       Q.   Can you tell us approximately at that time how many homes were in

22    the town in which you lived, Gornja Ravska?

23       A.   Approximately 100 households.

24       Q.   Can you tell us the ethnic composition, if you will, of those 100

25    or so households in the town in which you lived.

Page 9680

 1       A.   In my village, Gornja Ravska, there were five or six Serbian

 2    households, and the rest were all Croats.  There were no Muslims or

 3    Bosniaks.

 4       Q.   Briefly, with respect to your background, can you share with us

 5    your educational status and the highest level of education that you

 6    attained.

 7       A.   I completed secondary education.  And in the duration of three

 8    years, and I became a qualified metal worker, car body repair.  And now if

 9    we can go to private session, please.

10            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Private session please.

11                          [Private session]

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Page 9681













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25                          [Open session]

Page 9683

 1            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Please proceed.

 2            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3       Q.   Witness DE, I'm going to ask you some questions now relating to

 4    time specific to the spring and summer of 1992.  To the best of your

 5    recollection, sir, prior to - meaning before - April 30th, 1992, did you

 6    reside in the area that you mentioned to us, namely Gornja Ravska?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Can you share with us prior to April 30th, 1992, whether all the

 9    homes in the area or town that you lived were ever damaged, shelled,

10    bombed, or otherwise looted.

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   Sir, let me ask you the question from the period of April 30th,

13    through May 22nd, 1992, do you recall if any of the homes within the

14    village within which you resided were ever shelled, bombed, destroyed,

15    burned, or looted?

16       A.   In my village not a single house was ever shelled, bombed, or set

17    on fire to this date.

18       Q.   Witness DE, if I may, with the Court's permission -- thank you for

19    your answer.  However, just for our purposes, I'd like to just get an

20    answer for certain time periods.  So let me ask the general question:  At

21    any time during the spring and summer of 1992, from April 30th, 1992,

22    through September 30th, 1992, were any of the homes in the village in

23    which you resided at that time shelled, bombed, burned, or destroyed, or

24    otherwise looted?

25       A.   During that period of time, not a single house was either set on

Page 9684

 1    fire, shelled, or in any way destroyed.

 2       Q.   At that time, just so that I'm clear, the ethnic composition of

 3    the town in which you resided was predominantly Croatian, with the

 4    exception, I think, as you've testified, four to five homes which were

 5    persons who had the Serb ethnic background, correct?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Can you tell me in the spring and summer of 1992, namely prior to

 8    April 30th of 1992, were you employed?

 9       A.   No.  I went to school.

10       Q.   Share with us, if you will, where you attended school.

11       A.   In Prijedor.  The secondary machine school.

12       Q.   Just so that we're clear, it is the city of Prijedor that you

13    attended school, correct, in the very centre city, correct?

14       A.   Yes, in Prijedor.  The name of the school is the machine

15    energetics secondary school.

16       Q.   And from the period after April 30th, 1992, through and including

17    the date in which the schools close for the summer session, did you

18    continue to go to school on a regular and daily basis?

19       A.   I attended school until the 22nd of May, 1992.

20       Q.   Can you share with us specifically the time period that's of most

21    interest to us, April 30th, 1992, through May 22nd, 1992, whether you

22    continued to go to school on a regular and daily basis.

23       A.   Yes.

24            MR. OSTOJIC:  With the Court's permission, I'd like S1 to be

25    placed on the ELMO be the usher so he can perhaps share with us the route

Page 9685

 1    that he took to go to the school.

 2       A.   I cannot read what it says.  Gornja Ravska, Ljubija, Hambarine,

 3    Prijedor.

 4       Q.   Your daily journey from April 30th, 1992, through May 22nd, 1992,

 5    was done with which mode of transportation?

 6       A.   By bus.

 7       Q.   Public bus transportation, correct?

 8       A.   Yes, public bus transportation.

 9       Q.   At that time, sir, from April 30th through May 22nd, 1992, did you

10    have classmates of ethnic backgrounds different than your own?

11       A.   Yes, I had classmates who were of different ethnicity.

12       Q.   Such as what, sir?

13       A.   For instance, Haris Jakupovic.

14       Q.   And what is Mr. Jakupovic's ethnic background, to the extent that

15    you know?

16       A.   Well, he's a Muslim, a Bosniak.

17       Q.   Do you recall, sir, during the period in question that we're

18    discussing, April 30th, 1992, through May 22nd, 1992, whether Bosnian

19    Muslims continued to go to school, as you did, on a daily and regular

20    basis, as you did, in April 30th through May 22nd, 1992?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Do you, as you sit here, sir, recollect your classmate,

23    Mr. Jakupovic, who is a Bosniak Muslim by his ethnic background, attending

24    school during that entire period on a daily and regular basis?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 9686

 1       Q.   Share with us, if you will, whether or not you proceeded to go to

 2    school in the week or so after May 22nd, 1992.

 3       A.   I didn't go to school from the 22nd of May until sometime in

 4    June -- I don't remember the exact date -- due to the incident which took

 5    place in the village of Hambarine.  The reason being the fact that there

 6    was no transport from Prijedor.

 7       Q.   When does the school session in the Prijedor municipality

 8    typically and more specifically in 1992, when would it end?

 9       A.   On the 15th of June, 1992.

10       Q.   Likewise during this period of April 30th through May 22nd, 1992,

11    did you have an opportunity, sir -- did you -- if I can strike the

12    question, because I think I need a foundation -- a foundational question

13    first.  If I may, Your Honour.  Thank you.

14            Let me ask you this.  I apologise, Witness DE.  In your school,

15    during the period of May 30th through May 22nd, 1992, were there teachers

16    who taught students of all three or more ethnic backgrounds, namely

17    Serbs -- teachers who were of the Serb ethnic background, teachers were of

18    the Croatian ethnic background, and teachers of the Bosniak Muslim ethnic

19    background?

20       A.   I personally had both Serb and Bosniak teachers.

21       Q.   Let me focus my question on the period of April 30th through May

22    22nd, 1992.  Do you recall whether those teachers of Serbian and Bosniak

23    backgrounds, whether they continued to teach on a daily basis to you and

24    other students at that time period?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 9687

 1       Q.   In 1992, the spring and summer, sir, with respect to your town,

 2    was there a Catholic church or a religious institution within that town?

 3       A.   In my town there was a church, which actually still exists, which

 4    did not suffer any damage during the war.

 5       Q.   Just so that I'm clear, during the spring and summer of 1992, was

 6    this Catholic church ever bombed or shelled?

 7       A.   No, it was neither bombed or shelled.

 8       Q.   Was it ever burned or any attempts to burn or loot the Catholic

 9    church in your hometown?

10       A.   No.  There were no such attempts.

11       Q.   Share with us, sir, if you were ever in the military.

12       A.   Yes, I was.  I was in the military from the 10th of October, 1994,

13    until the 15th of February, 1996.  It was my regular military service that

14    I did during this period of time.

15       Q.   During the spring and summer of 1992, specifically April 30th

16    through September 30th, 1992, were you, sir, in light of the fact that

17    you're Croatian, were you ever harassed by anyone?

18       A.   During that time, I was not harassed by anyone.

19       Q.   During that same time period, namely April 30th through September

20    30th, 1992, were you ever beaten up or did anyone strike you?

21       A.   No.  No one harmed me or beat me.

22       Q.   During that time period, sir, were you ever humiliated or caused

23    to have upon you any mental suffering or to be degraded in any fashion?

24       A.   No, I was not degraded.

25       Q.   During this time period, April 30th, 1992, through September 30th,

Page 9688

 1    1992, had anyone at any time attempted to forcibly transfer or deport you

 2    from your hometown to any facility or institution?

 3       A.   No.

 4       Q.   Likewise, sir, with respect to your family, your parents, were

 5    they ever harassed, beaten, humiliated, or asked to leave their hometown

 6    during the period of April 30th through September 30th, 1992, by anyone,

 7    including people of the Serb ethnic background?

 8       A.   My father lived in the Republic of Slovenia, where he worked

 9    during the war.  Me and my mother, we were at home, and no one ever

10    harassed us or struck us.

11       Q.   In the town in which you lived in the spring and summer of 1992,

12    did you, sir, observe, see, or hear of anyone within your town of those

13    100 and so homes being beaten, humiliated, insulted, degraded, or

14    otherwise offended?

15       A.   Yes, these things happened.  In June or July -- July, I think it

16    was, five individuals were taken away from my village, from their homes,

17    that is.  They were allegedly taken to Omarska.  After all these events,

18    four left for third countries.  As for the fifth one, there's no

19    information as to his whereabouts.

20       Q.   Did there remain in your town in the spring and summer of 1992

21    other able-bodied men of military age other than those five that you've

22    just shared with us were taken to Omarska?

23       A.   Other residents remained at their homes.

24       Q.   So other able-bodied men, were they ever harassed, humiliated,

25    beaten, or otherwise degraded during the period of April 30th through

Page 9689

 1    September 30th, 1992?

 2       A.   As far as I know, no one ever touched them.

 3       Q.   I'd like to focus if we can on the day of April 30th, 1992, sir.

 4    Do you recall that date and what, if anything, significant happened on

 5    that day?

 6       A.   The 30th of April?  1992, right?

 7       Q.   Correct.  The 30th of April, 1992.

 8       A.   No.

 9       Q.   You mentioned the date of May 22nd, 1992, as being an incident at

10    the village or hamlet of Hambarine, correct?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Could you share with us, sir, whether or not or what information

13    you have in connection with this incident on May 22nd, 1992.

14       A.   Well, what happened, at least the story went around - whether it's

15    true or not, I don't know, because I was not there --

16            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Your Honour, I would make an objection just to the

17    value -- the relevance of testimony.  If the witness is only, again,

18    relaying hearsay as to what happened, unless he talked to someone who was

19    there directly or -- if it's simply unspecified hearsay, I just -- my

20    objection is relevance.

21            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:   And this would be true for a line of questions

22    previously.

23            MR. OSTOJIC:  I'm not sure I understand.  Which previous lines of

24    questions the Court is referring to, with all due respect.

25            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  The line of questions -- I don't think it's of

Page 9690

 1    relevance in this abstract way Defence counsel is asking questions to the

 2    witness, and whether or not one single witness was aware of some alleged

 3    incidents may be not of this relevance.  But when it comes now down to

 4    this abstract question, as we can read it on page 63, line 1, following,

 5    in fact we have to intervene and ask for more concrete questions.

 6            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7       Q.   Witness DE, I'm trying to just establish whether or not you knew

 8    and had information relating to an incident which occurred on May 22nd,

 9    1992.  I'm not asking you to share that information that you had, but

10    whether you understood that an incident occurred on or about that date in

11    the village of Hambarine.  And then I have several questions relating to

12    your personal observations after that, with the Court's permission.

13            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Yes.  But it's necessary to have a break now,

14    and then we'll continue after the break with your line of questions.

15            The trial stands adjourned until 6.00 sharp.

16                          --- Recess taken at 5.44 p.m.

17                          --- On resuming at 6.04 p.m.

18            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Please be seated.

19            And may I ask the usher to escort the witness out of the

20    courtroom.

21                          [The witness stands down]

22            In the meantime, I want to confirm that the Trial Chamber will sit

23    in this case on Friday from 9.00 to 12.30 and from 14.00 to 15.30 hours.

24    The second part will take place under Rule 15 bis because one of the

25    Judges has already scheduled a flight and this can't be rescheduled.

Page 9691

 1            As regards the witness before us, I think there are no longer any

 2    relevant questions to put to this witness.  When we were confronted with

 3    the admission of this witness, we took it that it would be Gornja Ravska.

 4    The Defence should be aware, and no doubt they know that Gornja Ravska

 5    and -- Donja and Gornja Ravska are no longer part of our case.  It was

 6    acquitted under 98 bis.

 7            What we have as a summary of the testimony, it is exhausted and it

 8    doesn't make sense at all and it is therefore not relevant.  Whether or

 9    whether or not a, at that time, 16-year-old person has some third- or

10    fourth-hand knowledge about whether or not an incident happened in the

11    area.  So therefore, if the Defence is not able to identify additional

12    relevant questions, this would conclude the examination-in-chief.

13            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  The Defence does believe

14    that the witness is relevant for a number of reasons, specifically some of

15    the which the testimony was outlined, namely to refute the testimony by

16    several OTP witnesses regarding the functions of schools, whether they

17    operated, whether teachers were discharged, whether students continued to

18    go within a critical period within the indictment.

19            Likewise, with all due respect to my learned friend from the OTP,

20    we did not have any intention to ask this witness to regurgitate or to

21    repeat any hearsay items that he'd learned as a result of the Hambarine

22    incident, the Kozarac incident, or the attack on Prijedor.  However, we

23    believe the witness continues to be an important witness, since according

24    to his testimony, based upon my recollection, and that which is reflected

25    in the testimony, after the attack on Hambarine, he continued to go to

Page 9692

 1    school.  The route that this witness shared with us that he took from

 2    Gornja Ravska --

 3            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  We heard all this.

 4            MR. OSTOJIC:  I understand.  He can tell us from personal

 5    knowledge, information, and observations what he saw going through

 6    Ljubija, Hambarine, and then to Prijedor.  I think it's important and I

 7    think it will refute issues both that go to widespread and systematic

 8    attack, the nature and extent and the severity of the purported damage

 9    that was done at Hambarine.

10            Here is a witness who at that time continued to travel after the

11    22nd, and I think his insights may assist us in determining whether or not

12    from the witnesses that the OTP called, if in fact every home was

13    destroyed, as they suggest, every home was burned, shelled, and looted.

14    This witness, I believe, will have testimony relevant to those factors.

15            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  We already heard the witness on this.  And as I

16    stated before, it's absolutely misleading already the proffer you provided

17    for us, and we do not accept that you continue with the line of

18    questioning which is absolutely irrelevant for the case, because it's no

19    longer part of the fourth amended indictment relating to Donja and Gornja

20    Ravska.  And we heard the witness and the statement -- his statement on

21    the way to school and back from school during a certain period of time.

22    So everything what is covered and expected by the Defence under the

23    proffer has already been established.

24            MR. OSTOJIC:  With all due respect, I don't think it has.  For

25    example, if I may, Your Honour, I would ask him concretely, did he view

Page 9693

 1    the Hambarine area and the homes, since I believe he took that road

 2    through Hambarine, after May 22nd, 1992.  And I believe I would follow up

 3    with the question, if it's in the affirmative:  What is it that you

 4    observed during your travels after that time?  We believe it goes to

 5    refute and contradict certain allegations that were put to this Court and

 6    brought before other witnesses that the OTP called.  If the Court doesn't

 7    think it's relevant that -- whether there were only the homes on the

 8    street or near the street that were shelled during the incident on May

 9    22nd, as opposed to the entire village, as the OTP has alleged, then make

10    it clear for us.  Our intent is to have him, through his travels, share

11    with us that which he saw, not strictly within his village but in the

12    villages in which he travelled during that time period.

13            Also, we believe it's important that this witness will share with

14    us the present situation, both in Hambarine and in the Prijedor

15    municipality, because the Court has on several occasions shared with us

16    their mandate and request to determine whether there is a continuation and

17    revitilisation or return of persons who had left in 1995.  I think this

18    witness, having continued to live there during that entire ten-year period

19    can share that information with the Court, if you'd like.

20            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Make I hear the submission by the Prosecution.

21            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Your Honour, well, we don't object to those

22    questions, but I think they've been handled -- they've been already

23    testified to by the last witness, as far as the road.  Counsel didn't make

24    an actual proffer of what this witness would testify to, but assuming he

25    would testify -- he travelled on the road and saw 40 or 50 houses

Page 9694

 1    destroyed, if that's the proffer, I don't think that's particularly

 2    relevant at this point.

 3            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  I think that also the witness understands.  The

 4    Defence counsel shall limit the questions to the route from his home to

 5    school but no other questions as reflected that a 16-year-old witness

 6    could testify  that "there was no organised genocidal plan in Prijedor,"

 7    as we can read it from the proffer.  This doesn't make sense at all.

 8            So please conclude immediately your examination-in-chief on the

 9    basis and limit it to the route from home to school, and then we'll

10    continue immediately.

11            MR. OSTOJIC:  Just for Your Honour, if I may.  I would like, with

12    the Court's permission, to ask the witness a question for a point of

13    clarification that was raised on page 55, lines 10 through 15 in private

14    session, if I'm permitted to just ask him a point of clarification on

15    that.

16            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  I think we can do it in five minutes.

17            Please escort the witness into the courtroom.

18            THE REGISTRAR:  I have one slight correction for the record.  On

19    Friday we'll start at 9.30 and not 9.00.

20                          [The witness entered court]

21            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Is there a specific reason?

22            Mr. Ostojic, please proceed.

23            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24       Q.   Witness DE, a couple more questions with respect to the date or

25    incident of May 22nd, 1992.  After that date, sir, after May 22nd, 1992,

Page 9695

 1    did you at any time while attending school or to visit the city of

 2    Prijedor pass through the village of Hambarine?

 3       A.   Yes, I did, in June, as I had to go to my school to pick up my

 4    final certificate.  I don't remember the exact date.

 5       Q.   Did you, sir, during that time personally observe the town of

 6    Hambarine and the houses that are within that town during your journey?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Can you share with us, if you will, what is it that you observed

 9    with respect to the homes within the town of Hambarine after May 22nd,

10    1992.

11       A.   I saw that some houses along the Hambarine-Prijedor road were

12    damaged.  Approximately 30 or 40 houses.  I don't know the exact number.

13       Q.   Were you able, sir, to view and do you have a personal observation

14    of homes that were in existence at that time in the village of Hambarine

15    away from the actual street?  Did you view those homes?

16       A.   Yes, I did.  These houses had tiles on the roof, doors, windows.

17       Q.   To the best of your recollection and your personal observation,

18    were those homes that were away from the street in the town of Hambarine

19    shelled, bombed, or burnt in any fashion; that which you could observe,

20    sir?

21       A.   As far as I could see from the bus, houses which were away from

22    the road were complete, were intact.

23            MR. OSTOJIC:  May we go in to private session, Your Honour?

24            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Please do so.

25                          [Private session]

Page 9696













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17                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

18                          at 7.04 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

19                          the 12th day of December, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.