International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11527

1 Friday, 31 January 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.27 p.m.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

6 A very good afternoon to everybody. May we please hear the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon. This is case number IT-97-24-T,

8 the Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the appearances on this 111th day of this

10 case for the Prosecution.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Nicholas Koumjian,

12 Ann Sutherland, and Ruth Karper for the Prosecution.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And for the Defence.

14 MR. LUKIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Branko Lukic, John

15 Ostojic, and Danilo Cirkovic for the Defence.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Before we start, may I please hear,

17 do you have already a, not proffers, but a list of the witnesses to appear

18 during next week, including Monday the following week?

19 MR. OSTOJIC: Good afternoon, Your Honour. Yes, we do. The

20 witnesses, pursuant to our 65 ter submission, are as follows: 053, 066,

21 070, and 079. Witness number 070, at least via telephone through our

22 investigator, has agreed to reschedule things so that he could appear

23 before the Court on Friday and Monday of the following week.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Witness 70.

25 So we take it as granted that these witnesses will appear. In

Page 11528

1 case there would be any obstacle or impediment, please let us know

2 immediately that we can do the necessary. And we are also prepared to

3 order the necessary related to those two witnesses you wanted us to order

4 their appearance. They will appear hopefully as Chamber witnesses, and we

5 didn't see any reason to order a subpoena because we don't have any

6 indicia that they wouldn't come without this subpoena.

7 We believe -- admittedly, I don't know the estimate of time

8 related to the four witnesses you just mentioned. You believe that those

9 four witnesses would cover the following six days.

10 MR. OSTOJIC: We do, Your Honour. And based on prior history with

11 respect to our witnesses, most recently this week, we may even anticipate

12 that the one witness will go beyond the Monday and into the Wednesday,

13 which was previously a holiday and now is not. But it all depends on the

14 questions by the OTP and by the Court. Specifically, with respect to

15 Witness 053, we believe that he will be lengthy and may take two to three

16 days for his completion in its entirety, including questions emanating

17 from the Defence, the anticipated cross-examination by the OTP, and the

18 Court's potential questions. So we believe we can fulfil the entire

19 six-plus days that the Court has requested us to bring witnesses.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It should only be quite clear from the outset

21 that there won't be any hearing on Wednesday, because as I already stated

22 yesterday, we all have our obligations and commitments, and therefore we

23 should if possible in any event stick to the schedule, and this was not to

24 have a hearing on Wednesday. And therefore, I think we appreciate very

25 much that you undertook the necessary steps that we have these four

Page 11529

1 witnesses, and let us please try that in both directions we can hear the

2 witnesses on Friday and Monday, but on the other hand, not to go beyond

3 this Monday.

4 Anything else to be discussed before we start with -- or restart

5 with our witness?

6 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes. We would just like to formally advise the

7 Court that we did file a motion, as we suggested we would yesterday, in

8 connection with the five witnesses that have experienced some personal

9 dilemmas and problems, and we're not sure if the Court has received that

10 motion, and I'm merely just providing you notice that we did file a

11 written application and we believe we have sufficiently set forth pursuant

12 to the Rules the basis upon which the videolink conference with the

13 Court's discretion may proceed. We very specifically set forth their

14 names. We filed it confidentially their 65 ter number and a brief summary

15 of the basis as to why these witnesses cannot testify live here at The

16 Hague but are willing nonetheless to testify via videolink. And we've

17 also set forth the basis as required by the Rules as to the necessity of

18 those the witnesses from the Defence perspective. And just to remind the

19 Court respectfully, we believe the Court has previously agreed that these

20 witnesses can be called. So they were on our initial list. And we

21 continue to maintain that they're necessary and vital for the Defence

22 case.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And may I, therefore, invite the Prosecution to

24 respond to this as soon as possible. Hopefully it's possible in oral form

25 only, that we don't need the answer in writing, and that we can take the

Page 11530

1 necessary measures if we can come to the conclusion that a videolink is

2 the appropriate way to hear these witnesses as soon as possible.

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, Your Honour. We have not yet received the

4 motion, but we will review it as soon as we receive it.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Anything else?

6 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: From the Prosecution?

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: No, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I then ask the usher to escort the witness

10 into the courtroom. Thank you.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon, Mr. Vuleta. Please take your

13 seat.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I do hope that in the late afternoon or even

16 evening of yesterday we did not confuse you with all these pictures of

17 models. Unfortunately, we had no chance at all to be there ourselves and

18 to visit these buildings on the spot, which no doubt would facilitate our

19 work. But please continue as you did yesterday with your testimony. And

20 it's for me under the Rules just to remind you that you are still under

21 solemn declaration as it was yesterday.

22 So may I ask the Defence to continue.

23 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 11531

1 Examined by Mr. Ostojic: [Continued]

2 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Vuleta.

3 A. Good afternoon.

4 Q. Once again, I'd like to first apologise for yesterday evening and

5 the difficulty I seem to have had in terms of expressing myself in

6 connection with some of the exhibits that were put forth. But today I'm

7 going to try to ask you some questions and then hopefully I'll go back to

8 some of the exhibits so that we could clarify some points necessary for

9 the Defence. Are you ready to proceed?

10 A. I am.

11 Q. Sir, yesterday you discussed the drinking water that was provided

12 at the iron ore mine and that there was a special water well located at

13 Donja Lamovita, which was 5 or 6 kilometres away from the facility that

14 was shown to you on the picture S15.2. Correct?

15 A. Correct, yes. Yes, from the restaurant that was being shown me

16 and the place, the hall where the vehicles belonging to the mine were

17 parked.

18 Q. Sir, was part of your duties and responsibilities to maintain and

19 service this special water well in Donja Lamovita so that persons at the

20 iron ore mine could use and be provided with drinking water?

21 A. Yes, yes. The well was of major importance, and I had to devote

22 most of my attention to it so as not to have any shortages or any cuts in

23 water supply.

24 Q. So just so I understand your testimony, you would actually leave

25 the area that was depicted that we saw yesterday on Exhibit S15-2 -- you

Page 11532

1 would leave that area and go 5 or 6 kilometres to the actual special water

2 well in order to maintain and service that water well; correct?

3 A. Yes. Yes, correct.

4 Q. Now, the duties and responsibilities that you described in

5 connection with maintenance and service of this special water well, those

6 are the same duties and responsibilities that you performed before the

7 attack on Prijedor as well as after the attack on Prijedor; correct?

8 A. Yes, it is. I maintained the drinking water well in the same way

9 before.

10 Q. Sometimes lawyers have to be a little more specific, so I'm going

11 to ask you a question in connection with that. Specifically, sir, during

12 the time period that you shared with us, the end of May 1992 through

13 August of 1992, did you continue to maintain and service this special

14 water well so that the detainees who were at the iron ore mine were able

15 to be provided with drinking water?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. You also told us yesterday that you worked a 24-hour shift.

18 During that 24 hours, sir, did you utilise the drinking water that you

19 were maintaining and servicing for the people at the iron ore mine, during

20 the period of May through August 1992?

21 A. I also drank that. Not always. At times I'd bring water from

22 home, because we had a problem before the war. There was an outbreak of

23 epidemics and a number of our workers fell ill. Some of them were in the

24 hospital. While, I was lucky and did not succumb. But after these

25 epidemics, the mine management distributed mineral water to us, and then

Page 11533

1 special teams came from laboratories to do some chemical tests and they

2 added something -- they added some chemicals and things. The water wasn't

3 quite right either biologically or chemically. And there is documentation

4 to this effect and analysis, and I believe it can still be found in the

5 mine archives.

6 Q. Okay. When was that, sir? When did that happen?

7 A. It happened -- I mean, the epidemics, it was before the outbreak

8 of war, at the time when the situation was regular. Now, I don't exactly

9 know when was that. It could have been 1990 or perhaps 1989. I do not

10 know the exact day, but it was a long time before the war. Nobody even

11 imagined that there would be a war at that time.

12 Q. Just so that we're clear, when you say "before the war," you're

13 not referring to the war that commenced in Prijedor. You're talking about

14 the war in Slovenia and Croatia. So somewhere between 1989 and 1990;

15 correct?

16 A. Yes. Yes, yes. Yes, yes. Before any conflict, either in

17 Slovenia -- no, nobody could even dream that there would be a war.

18 Q. Let me switch the topic from water to food now. You mentioned

19 yesterday at pages 80 and on, you discussed the cafeteria that you

20 identified on Exhibit S15-2 and then you also mentioned another restaurant

21 and a kitchen which was near the separation where all the food was

22 prepared. And for the Court and counsel, that's on page 81.

23 And you also mentioned that that cafeteria, the other one, and

24 kitchen were approximately 2 kilometres east of the photograph that we

25 were discussing yesterday evening. Do you remember that testimony?

Page 11534

1 A. There's a slight error there. The kitchen, that is, where food

2 was cooked, was east of the cafeteria where it was distributed. And we

3 called it Kop, that is, to the east where the -- was the restaurant with

4 cooking facilities and to the west was the cafeteria, where food was

5 distributed to the workers at the time when the mine worked, and then

6 later on the place where the detainees were also distributed food.

7 Q. [Microphone not activated]

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.


10 Q. Just so that I may have clarification. On the exhibit that we saw

11 yesterday, there was the cafeteria; correct?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. Is that the cafeteria where in the spring and summer of 1992 the

14 detainees would be provided with food?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And was the food prepared in that cafeteria that we saw on the

17 exhibit or was it prepared in a different cafeteria, as you described it,

18 2 kilometres east and then that food being prepared was brought to the

19 cafeteria?

20 A. Yes, that is right.

21 Q. Well, actually, sir, I gave you an option on the question. I used

22 the word "or," so let me just clarify it. It's true, isn't it, that in

23 fact the food was prepared for the detainees in the spring and summer of

24 1992 in a different facility 2 miles east from the area that was depicted

25 in the exhibit and it was brought to the cafeteria that you identified and

Page 11535

1 that is where the detainees ate that food; correct?

2 A. Yes, correct.

3 Q. Thank you. Mr. Vuleta, you having been working a 24-hour shift,

4 did you also and likewise eat the same food that the detainees ate in the

5 spring and summer of 1992?

6 A. I took of the same food as the detainees, except because I also

7 maintained the cooking facilities and I knew the personnel, I would get

8 larger portions of the food. But the type of food was the same for the

9 workers, for the detainees, and the troops. It was cooked the same way,

10 using the same facilities.

11 Q. And can you describe for us, please, the food that you ate during

12 the period of summer 1992 that the detainees also ate.

13 A. Well, the food was beans. One day we'd have potatoes, then rice.

14 It depends. It wasn't the same food every day.

15 Q. How often in a given day was food being provided to the detainees

16 in the spring and summer of 1992?

17 A. They had only one meal a day.

18 Q. Do you know, sir, if bread was provided to the detainees at that

19 time, the spring and summer of 1992?

20 A. Yes. Yes. In the early days, they got a quarter of a loaf of

21 bread. But as the time went by, they were getting an eighth part of a

22 loaf because we were surrounded and cut off from Serbia and cut off from

23 Croatia in the west, and since our supplies were running short, then we

24 had to distribute what we had.

25 Q. So is it fair to say that there was less food being provided to

Page 11536

1 everyone at the iron ore mine, including the detainees, as well as the

2 employees, such as yourself, including the police force that was there, as

3 well as the military force; correct?

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'd ask counsel to refrain from

5 leading from now on in.


7 MR. OSTOJIC: I think, quite frankly, Your Honour, we've set a

8 precedent here. And I'd hate to argue this rather, in my opinion,

9 minuscule point, when if we review the transcript of any witness, and I

10 don't say with any reservation, that this Court is allowed, at least with

11 all the OTP witnesses they've been led, and there was not an open-ended

12 question that they asked without it being led. But I can restate the

13 question without any problem, but...

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objection dismissed.


16 Q. Mr. Vuleta, let me try the question again, in any event. The food

17 that you said ultimately during the tenure of late May through August of

18 1992, it became -- the supplies were reduced. Did that apply just to the

19 detainees?

20 A. I think the detainees -- I think -- I mean, I know that they were

21 getting less. And as for the troops, I believe they had two meals. That

22 is what I think. I didn't really go there, but I saw their food being

23 poured out, distributed, taken away, army troops, detainees -- so I -- no,

24 I still think that the army troops received two meals.

25 Q. And what about yourself and other employees of the iron ore mine?

Page 11537

1 Did you also receive the main -- the same portions as you had prior to

2 this reduction in supply?

3 A. Well, when our supplies declined and the quality of food also

4 declined, so I often brought my food from home so that I never even went

5 to that kitchen. I would simply bring it along. Sometimes I did eat in

6 the kitchen, but I -- I mean, I had enough.

7 Q. Let me switch now from water and food to sleeping accommodations

8 at the iron ore mine. During the spring and summer of 1992, did you, sir,

9 during your 24-hour shift also sleep at or near the iron ore mine?

10 A. When on my shift, I slept in the electric workshop.

11 Q. Were you provided, sir, with a mattress and a pillow for your

12 specific sleeping accommodations, or at the very least describe for us, so

13 that I don't lead -- describe for us your personal sleeping accommodations

14 during the time that you were at the iron ore mine from late May through

15 late August 1992.

16 A. I and other workers who worked in the mine, I personally slept on

17 a wooden table, on a work table. I brought a kind of a sponge mattress

18 from home, and it was -- the weather was warm, so there was no need for me

19 to cover with anything. But we had no beds.

20 Q. And were there beds anywhere within the iron ore mine complex in

21 the spring and summer of 1992?

22 A. Beds? No. There were no beds. I -- no. No, there were no beds

23 there at all. No.

24 Q. Moving right along. Yesterday on page 70 of your testimony you

25 mentioned one of your superiors by the name of Mirko Babic. Do you

Page 11538

1 remember that name, sir?

2 A. Yes, yes, I do.

3 Q. Can you tell us what Mirko Babic's title was in connection with

4 the iron ore mine during the spring and summer of 1992.

5 A. Mirko Babic was the foreman in the workshop. He assigned jobs.

6 He issued orders to me concerning work involving the electric

7 installations or -- he also issued orders to locksmiths, what they had to

8 do and so.

9 Q. Was he a member of the police force during the spring and summer

10 of 1992?

11 A. Oh, come on. No. He was a civilian.

12 Q. I just wanted to get clarification on that. Sir, was he a member

13 of the military during the spring and summer of 1992?

14 A. Come, no. He was a civilian.

15 Q. Did he, sir, Mr. Babic, at any time during the spring and summer

16 of 1992, when the detainees were at the iron ore mine, order, direct, or

17 supervise any of the members of the police force that were present there?

18 A. Mirko Babic had nothing to do with the police. He merely

19 organised work in the mine. He had nothing to do with the police or the

20 army or anything.

21 Q. I understand that, sir. But it's my duty as an attorney to just

22 clarify those factual issues. So just be patient with me. With respect

23 to Mr. Babic, again, did he, sir, give any orders, commands, instructions,

24 or supervise any members of the military at the iron ore mine in the

25 spring and summer of 1992 when the detainees were present?

Page 11539

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And may I add, in case you don't know, please

2 say so.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not aware that he could issue

4 any orders to the army.


6 Q. What I'm, sir, looking for is specifically your personal

7 observations and experiences. Did you, sir, at any time in the spring and

8 summer of 1992 see or hear that Mr. Babic at any time ordered, commanded,

9 instructed, or supervised any members of the military who were present at

10 the iron ore mine in the spring and summer of 1992 while the detainees

11 were there?

12 A. Why, no. Mirko Babic had nothing to do with the military. I

13 don't know what could he order.

14 MR. OSTOJIC: With the assistance and permission of the Court, if

15 the usher can show the witness Exhibit S15-2 again, please.

16 Q. And Mr. Vuleta, we're going to return to this exhibit that we

17 spent some time yesterday and hopefully by utilising this one exhibit we

18 can at least get some clarity on some issues, hopefully.

19 Mr. Vuleta, I have a couple more questions in connection with this

20 exhibit, S15-2. Specifically, if you can recall, based upon your personal

21 objections, can you show us on this picture of a model prepared by the OTP

22 where the police officers were stationed typically, on a typical day, in

23 the spring and summer of 1992 while the detainees were there.

24 A. The police was in this part, here. And it was police from Banja

25 Luka.

Page 11540

1 MR. OSTOJIC: And just so the record is clear, if I may, Your

2 Honour, the witness -- or Mr. Vuleta is indicating the picture -- by

3 facing the picture, the building to the right -- on the right-hand side

4 and immediately south of the building. He indicated the vacant area in

5 front of that building.

6 Q. And in any other area were police force in existence?

7 A. There were policemen in the administrative building too. I saw

8 them there. And there were guards standing around here and here, around

9 the buildings.

10 MR. OSTOJIC: Just so the record is clear, the witness has

11 essentially encircled both -- or the building to the left, the large

12 building, as well as the building to the north facing this picture, which

13 I think is previously identified as a white house. And then the witness

14 has also indicated that there were guards stationed around the entrance of

15 the building which as we face is on the right-hand side.

16 Q. Mr. Vuleta, to the best of your recollection, do you remember

17 where the military personnel were stationed at or about the iron ore mine

18 during the spring and summer of 1992?

19 A. Military personnel were stationed -- well, I couldn't tell you the

20 exact distance, but it was behind these buildings over there. There were

21 some swamps there. And on this side there was a petrol station. So it

22 was basically there was a ring -- there was military encircling the whole

23 area.

24 MR. OSTOJIC: I think that adequately describes it, so I won't

25 have to.

Page 11541

1 Q. Sir, during the spring and summer of 1992, while the detainees

2 were at the iron ore mine, did you carry a gun or a pistol or were you in

3 any manner armed?

4 A. I was a civilian. I wore my work clothes, and I wore a white

5 armband. I can't remember whether it was on my right or left arm, so that

6 it was quite clear for all the guards to see that I was not one of the

7 inmates.

8 MR. OSTOJIC: If I can, with the Court's permission and the

9 assistance of the usher and the registry have the witness look at Exhibit

10 S15-16.

11 Q. Sir, I'm going to show you what's been previously marked as

12 Exhibit S15-16 and ask you to please describe, if you can, the aerial side

13 photograph of that picture. Thank you.

14 A. This building is the white house. And while the mine was

15 operating, this was where the roll call was read out for the miners. This

16 building here was a pumper for sewage and the container. This here was

17 the administration building and the canteen. The part up there was the

18 administration building and down here was the canteen, where the workers

19 had their meals. This here is a transformer station. This is a warehouse

20 for lubricating oils. Then this building here -- you can't see it, but

21 there were two buildings here. There was a pumping station here for

22 sewage as well, and this is where there were high pressure pumps which

23 were used to wash vehicles, to hose down vehicles when they were going to

24 the mine and also the vehicles were washed here before being repaired.

25 This building here we referred to as "the workshop." The western part of

Page 11542

1 this building was where bulldozers and excavators and the trucks and other

2 large vehicles were repaired. This part here, this was the garage and

3 also a workshop for -- for dump trucks, and they were repaired here. And

4 here there is a compressor station. Up here there were offices where

5 various employees, technicians, engineers worked. I don't know if you're

6 interested in anything else besides this.

7 Q. I think that's adequate for now. If the OTP or the Court has any

8 other questions, I'm sure they're going to ask.

9 Can you share with us, by looking at this exhibit, S15-16, during

10 the spring and summer of 1992, when you were under your work obligation,

11 where would you sleep during your 24-hour shift?

12 A. I slept in this area here, between this building and this part

13 here. So it was right in the corner here.

14 MR. OSTOJIC: Let me just describe it if I can for the record.

15 It's the larger of the two buildings by facing the picture on the

16 right-hand side. And it's the area generally which is perpendicular

17 section of that building to the right.

18 Q. Correct?

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. I don't want to interrupt you if not

20 necessary, but on page 16, line 9 you said "the spring and summer of 1992,

21 when you were under your work obligation." I don't have the impression

22 following yesterday's transcript that we have already established when the

23 work obligation started, whether it was in May or in August.

24 MR. OSTOJIC: I could clarify that.


Page 11543

1 MR. OSTOJIC: I thought it was clear.

2 Q. Before you answer this question, sir, if I may, can you tell us

3 when you were placed on a mandatory work obligation.

4 A. I was placed under mandatory work obligation when the prisoners

5 arrived in the mine. Before that, I was normally employed. But then

6 instead of being recruited to go to the front line, I was left to work

7 where I had been working and I was issued with a decision that this was my

8 work obligation, to work in the Omarska mine.

9 Q. And what period of time was that, sir? Was it in May or August of

10 1992 -- or what period of time was it?

11 A. This was in May, but I can't be sure of the date. I think it may

12 have been the 10th of May. I don't know the exact date, but I continued

13 to work as usual. And later on I was issued with a decision that this was

14 my mandatory work obligation and that I would not have to go to the front

15 line.

16 Q. Just so that I clarify, with the Court's permission on the dates,

17 it's my recollection, sir - and you please correct us, because we want to

18 know what you recall - did you obtain this work obligation before or after

19 the attack on Prijedor, as you described yesterday?

20 A. I received it after that, when the prisoners arrived in the camp,

21 when they first arrived. Maybe ten days after that.

22 Q. I understand. But just for clarity purposes, you mentioned just

23 briefly approximately May 10th. The Court and counsel and I have been

24 operating under the assumption that the attack on Prijedor happened May

25 30th of 1992. Would it be fair, sir, for purposes of clarity that you

Page 11544

1 received your work obligation after the attack on Prijedor, which would

2 have been after May 30th, 1992? Correct?

3 A. Yes, yes. You're correct. I made a mistake. After their

4 arrival -- that's right. I was a bit confused.

5 Q. And as you stated yesterday, just so that it is clear, your work

6 obligation continued, sir, beyond the spring and summer of 1992; correct?

7 A. Yes, yes. My work obligation continued. And after the prisoners

8 left the mine, I was still under work obligation until 1995, when Sanski

9 Most fell, when there was an attack. And then I was mobilised as well.

10 Q. Thank you. I'd like to turn to another issue, sir, and that

11 involves a delegation that arrived in the second half of July 1992 at the

12 iron ore mine. Can you tell us, sir, whether you have an independent

13 recollection of a delegation from Banja Luka coming to the iron ore mine

14 during the period of mid to late July 1992.

15 A. Yes. I remember that a delegation arrived, but I didn't know

16 where they'd come from or who they were. On that day I had a problem, if

17 I may show you on this picture --

18 Q. If I may interrupt. For my purposes, independent of your

19 testimony --

20 MR. OSTOJIC: If the usher, with the Court's permission, and show

21 Mr. Vuleta Exhibit S15-2, so that he could show us exactly what he

22 recalls. I think the witness may have --

23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vuleta. I apologise for interrupting.

24 Again, can you show us on this picture, as you did yesterday,

25 where the entrance to the iron ore mine was where this delegation came

Page 11545

1 from. Point at it.

2 A. The entrance was on the east side, on the eastern side, here, in

3 the direction coming from Omarska.

4 MR. OSTOJIC: So the record --

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. I think the witness just told us that on

6 that very day he had a problem, and I think it might be fair that -- for

7 the witness to tell us what was the problem and to finalise his answer.

8 Maybe then --

9 MR. OSTOJIC: Fair enough.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: -- all the other questions will be vacated.

11 Mr. Vuleta, you wanted to tell us about a problem you had on that

12 concrete day. Could you please continue, as you wanted.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On that day, there was a problem

14 because the external lighting had broken down. This was outside the

15 buildings, around this edge here, around the perimeter. There were posts

16 there with lighting, and I had a problem in this part here and here

17 because the lights were out. On that day I worked to find the source of

18 the problem. The transformer station is up here, and then cables run from

19 the transformer station under the ground from post to post, and then they

20 come up to here. So I set out to find out what had happened and why the

21 lamps were out, so I went to look for the breakdown. I set out from the

22 transformer station and followed the cables, and in this part here I found

23 that a cable had been pierced between two posts. The cable was

24 underground. I had to repair the damage, and I was unable to dig the

25 cable up, so I had to go and find another piece of cable I could use to

Page 11546

1 bridge this gap between these two posts. So I went and I found a piece of

2 cable which I laid above ground in order to bypass the underground cable

3 so that I could repair the lighting.

4 MR. OSTOJIC: May I proceed, Your Honour?

5 Just so the record is clear, with the Court's permission, can the

6 witness identify with a marker the area that he was discussing where he

7 was on or about the date that the Banja Luka delegation came.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we can describe it in a fair way.

9 Please, it's for the parties to correct me if I'm wrong. In the

10 beginning, the witness indicated that there was a problem concerning the

11 entire area that is depicted as a grey area, and he wanted to find out the

12 problem, which was somewhere between the main building, the white house,

13 and the administrative building. And he found in front of the

14 administrative building to the right-hand side of the model a problem

15 where -- and he resolved the problem there in order to have the lights

16 switched on in the entire area surrounding this administrative building.

17 Would this be a fair description?

18 MR. OSTOJIC: We're very grateful for the Court's assistance.

19 Thank you, Your Honour.



22 Q. Now, Mr. Vuleta, the section that the Court just identified on the

23 lower right-hand corner, the section where this cable was separated and

24 you were repairing, can you tell us, sir, when the Banja Luka delegation

25 arrived, where were you physically present at the iron ore mine?

Page 11547

1 A. I was right in this part where I was working, because it couldn't

2 be done quickly. I was there until the afternoon, because I had to set

3 out from the source of electricity and then check post by post until I

4 found to where the breakdown had occurred. Then I had to go and fetch the

5 cable. I had to lay it down. I had to connect it, and so on.

6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, just for the record, the witness

7 hasn't said they were from Banja Luka. He said, "I didn't know where

8 they'd come from or who they were."

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objection sustained.

10 MR. OSTOJIC: That's fair, Your Honour.

11 Q. The group that came, as I identified them as a delegation - I

12 apologise, Mr. Vuleta - the delegation that came that day while you were

13 present on that day, can you tell us in which part they entered the iron

14 ore mine. Did they come in on the same entrance that you've previously

15 described for us?

16 A. The delegation entered from the east.

17 Q. Did you, sir, personally observe the delegation coming?

18 A. Yes, I did. Two passenger cars drove in, and they stopped here,

19 behind the administration building, here.

20 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, perhaps not a big point, Your Honour. I think

21 the witness said luksuzna and not "passenger," but luxury passenger

22 vehicle. But in any event, we could check that later.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask the booths.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, very often this is synonymous.

25 Witnesses often use -- say "luxury car," when they actually mean

Page 11548

1 "passenger car." But he did say "luxury car," yes.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And then there was an objection?

3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Not an objection. I'd just like it marked for

4 the record where he's pointing to.

5 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, I'm just curious from the comment how anyone

6 can anticipate what a witness is thinking or not. The interpreter is

7 saying very often witnesses are thinking this and meaning that. We'll

8 discuss it at a later point, but if I could just proceed --

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No. I think it's quite clear. The interpreter

10 assisted us by telling us that it's used as a synonym, luxury car or

11 passenger car, so ...

12 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. Vuleta, can you tell us, having been there, the route in which

14 the vehicles entering the iron ore mine in July of 1992, which route did

15 they proceed upon entering into the complex, which route did they proceed

16 to take?

17 A. The vehicles entered from the east, from the direction of Omarska.

18 Q. Can you just point at it for me again. I didn't have my

19 picture --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

21 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.

22 Q. Can you point to the area again where the vehicles entered and

23 then where they proceeded to go.

24 A. The vehicles entered from this direction and turned right, and

25 they stopped here. I was working here repairing the breakdown. I saw

Page 11549

1 that there was some sort of delegation, that they were gentlemen getting

2 out of the cars. I knew Mr. Predrag Radic from Banja Luka, who was one of

3 these people. I also knew Mr. Simo Miskovic and Simo Drljaca. I didn't

4 know the others. And they went off behind the building and then they went

5 off in this direction.

6 MR. OSTOJIC: And just for the record and for the OTP the witness

7 indicated that the vehicle upon entering the iron ore mine on the lower

8 right-hand side made a right turn immediately before the building, at

9 which point the cars were stopped. As the witness described, they got out

10 of the car and then proceeded in a northerly direction by looking at that

11 picture S15-2 and then proceeded left, which would be eastbound.

12 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Witness?

13 A. No. This is the west here. Towards the west.

14 Q. Very good. Thank you very much. I think it's clear though. But

15 just to make sure it's clear. The people who exited the vehicle, as

16 you've described them, they proceeded northbound and then made a left that

17 being westbound; correct?

18 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. Just going back a little bit. This delegation that you saw, how

20 many people were in this delegation, sir?

21 A. There were seven or eight people. The drivers remained in the

22 cars. They stopped here. It was a very hot day, and it was shady here

23 because this side is south. So most probably they stayed there in order

24 to stay in the shade.

25 Q. Could you tell us, sir, on that day how far away were you from

Page 11550

1 this delegation that arrived in mid -- or the second half of July 1992?

2 How far away were you?

3 A. I was very close to them. I didn't measure the distance, but it

4 was some 3 or 4 metres away. I was here. It's not far.

5 Q. Did you proceed to follow the delegation, sir, as they went

6 westbound on the other side of this picture or building that's depicted on

7 the picture S15-2? Did you continue to observe and follow them?

8 A. I only saw when the delegation disappeared behind this corner. I

9 continued doing my job. Why should I follow them? What mattered to me

10 was to get my job done that had been assigned to me by my superior, and

11 that was to solve the problem of the lighting.

12 Q. Sir, do you know Dr. Milomir Stakic?

13 A. I do.

14 Q. Was Dr. Milomir Stakic with this delegation in July of 1992?

15 A. On that day, Dr. Milomir Stakic was not in that delegation.

16 Q. Tell us how long you have known Dr. Stakic and how it is that you

17 met his acquaintance.

18 A. I have known Dr. Stakic for a very long time. We were born in the

19 same village. We weren't close neighbours. There were 5 or 6 kilometres

20 between us. I first met Dr. Stakic before the war when we would see each

21 other in the Tri Asa restaurant in Omarska. I remember very well he wore

22 a black hat. His clothes were conspicuous. He had the long coat, and so

23 on.

24 Q. Sir, at any time during the spring and summer of 1992, while you

25 were there, did you observe or see Dr. Milomir Stakic at the iron ore

Page 11551

1 mine?

2 A. No, I never saw him during the period I worked there in the mine.

3 Q. Is there any doubt, sir, in your mind, based upon your personal

4 observations, that had Dr. Milomir Stakic been with this delegation in

5 July of 1992, that you would have recognised him?

6 A. I'm 100 per cent sure, and I can swear in a church or wherever you

7 like that on that day Dr. Milomir Stakic wasn't there. If he had been, of

8 course I would have recognised him. I would have said hello to him. But

9 on that day, Dr. Stakic wasn't there.

10 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour. That's all we have.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Is the Prosecution prepared to start the

12 cross-examination immediately now, or should we have the break now?

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: I don't mind, Your Honour. I'm ready to start,

14 or we can have an early break and then go on.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The Trial Chamber stays adjourned until 4.00.

16 --- Recess taken at 3.26 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

19 May I ask the Prosecution to start their cross-examination.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Cross-examined by Ms. Sutherland:

22 Q. Mr. Vuleta, if you don't hear my question or you don't understand

23 my question, can you please ask me to repeat it. Do you understand?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. In May of 1992, were you working in the electrical workshop at the

Page 11552

1 Omarska mine?

2 A. In May, yes, I did.

3 Q. And that's the electrical workshop that's contained in what we

4 described as the hangar building, and you pointed at that on Exhibit

5 S15-2.

6 A. I worked on the entire mine system, and I would be in the workshop

7 when I was off, and during the night that is where I slept.

8 Q. That's right. And in the beginning of -- in May 1992, that is

9 where your office was, where you pointed to it on that exhibit earlier

10 today.

11 A. Yes. But it was a workshop, not an office.

12 Q. You said earlier at page 63 for counsel and the Chamber, that the

13 mine stopped working when Prijedor was attacked. And we've established

14 that that was on the 30th of May, 1992, when the non-Serbs tried to

15 reverse the takeover of power. Is that correct, that the mine stopped

16 working when Prijedor was attacked?

17 A. The mine stopped with the exploitation of the ore, when the attack

18 on Prijedor took place.

19 Q. Did you see any detainees in Omarska camp before the 30th of May,

20 1992?

21 A. No, after. After.

22 Q. Isn't it a fact that there were detainees in the Omarska camp

23 before the 30th of May, 1992?

24 A. No. There was nothing.

25 Q. Are you as certain about that as you are as certain about

Page 11553

1 Dr. Stakic not being part of the delegation that you told us about just

2 before we broke?

3 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm going to object to the form of the question and

4 to the sarcastic nature of the question, Your Honour. I think the

5 witness's testimony speaks for itself. And I don't think that she should,

6 in my opinion, respectfully weigh one thing or the other. If she has a

7 point of contention with the witness, place it to the witness. But to

8 place a question like that, in our opinion, is inappropriate.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Maybe it can be appropriate to rephrase the

10 question.

11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I don't believe I was being

12 sarcastic, and I apologise to the witness if he took my question as that.

13 Q. Sir, you just said a moment ago that you saw no detainees in the

14 camp and you were certain that there were no detainees in the camp prior

15 to the 30th of May, 1992; is that correct?

16 A. The detainees came after the attack on Prijedor and Kozarac, when

17 the extremist groups attacked military columns.

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown Exhibit S353.

19 Q. Sir, this is a nine-page document from the chief of the Prijedor

20 police station, Simo Drljaca, and it's a report about "reception centres"

21 in the municipality of Prijedor. Can I take you, please, to page 5. And

22 that has the ERN number for the usher at the top of the page B0032582.

23 And if the English could be placed on the ELMO. And it is page 4

24 of the English translation.

25 Sir, looking at the third paragraph on that page, it talks about a

Page 11554

1 Crisis Staff decision ordering that the Keraterm facility in Prijedor be

2 used only for transit purposes. And then it goes on in the following

3 paragraph - and I will read it for you - "pursuant to this decision, on 27

4 May 1992, all prisoners of war were transferred to Omarska." Do you still

5 say that there were no prisoners -- no detainees in the Omarska camp prior

6 to the attack on Prijedor?

7 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, let me object to the form of the

8 question. And I also think it mischaracterise this witness's immediate

9 prior testimony on page 27, lines 13 through 14. He specifically mentions

10 Kozarac and an attack on the military convoy. This Court has restricted

11 sometimes for us to discuss because it's hearsay events --

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Can you please stop arguing. I think we were --

13 we had agreed on the form of objections and in the way an objection has to

14 be phrased.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The objection is dismissed on the basis of

17 previous transcripts.


19 Q. Sir, thank you. I've finished with that document.


21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So you may proceed with the question.

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour, I am.

23 Q. Sir, having taken you to that document, and it can be seen that

24 detainees were transferred to the Omarska camp on the 27th of May, is it

25 still your testimony that there were no detainees in Omarska prior to the

Page 11555

1 attack on Prijedor?

2 MR. OSTOJIC: The same objection, Your Honour.



5 Q. Would you please answer the question.

6 A. As far as I can remember, I did not make a record so as to be able

7 to specify the date or the day. I know that it was when there was this

8 attack on Prijedor. It was a long time ago. It's hard for me to remember

9 whether it was on the 27th or on the 30th of May. But in any case, it was

10 towards the end of May. I did not make any statistic so as to be able to

11 know the day, the hour. It's very difficult to remember the exact day. I

12 was -- I did not enter anything into a diary. I did not write a diary, so

13 I don't know whether things happened on the 27th, the 30th, or the 1st.

14 It was in that period of time. I was not authorised to run any records,

15 to keep any records. I worked there, and it's very difficult for me to

16 know the exact date. I am not in the position to -- to give you the exact

17 dates.

18 Q. Thank you. I want to move now to Dr. Stakic. How do you know

19 him? You said that he was from the same village as yourself and that he

20 lived 5 to 6 kilometres away and that you would see him in the Tri Asa

21 restaurant. Did you know him personally?

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please make reference to the point in

23 transcript.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry. It was the page before the break,

25 just before the break.

Page 11556

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The parties are aware. Thank you.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Page 24, Your Honour.



5 Q. Sir, did you know Dr. Stakic personally?

6 A. Let me explain it to you in more specific terms. I know him

7 because we come from the same village. I know Mr. May because I saw him

8 on TV. If I saw him in the street, I would recognise him. We come from

9 the same village and obviously we knew each other.

10 Secondly, Mr. Stakic married a woman whose sister married my

11 neighbour. I know the parents of his wife, her brother's sisters, and we

12 know each other. I know the villagers of my village. I am not intimate

13 with them, but I know who is who, if you understand what I'm saying. I

14 will know you when I see you on TV tomorrow, because I saw you. That

15 means I met you. Is that enough?

16 Q. Thank you. Did Dr. Stakic have any siblings?

17 A. Mr. Dr. Stakic had a father whose name was Milan. His mother is

18 Mira. She is from Kriva, from Sejici [phoen]. I think he has a brother.

19 He doesn't have a sister.

20 Q. You think he has a brother. Do you know that person's name?

21 A. I know his nickname is Baco. It is on the tip of my tongue. I

22 know he worked in Germany. He drove a bus in Germany. I know that he is

23 now married. He has two children. I can't remember his name.

24 Q. Is his brother's name Milorad Stakic?

25 A. I don't think so. I know that his nickname is Baco. That's what

Page 11557

1 people call him. He was in Germany for a long time, and currently I don't

2 know, I think he runs a department store in Prijedor. I haven't seen him

3 in a long time. I saw him when he drove this bus to Germany, and that's

4 where he was for quite a long time. I don't know exactly how long he was

5 there. Milomir's father was a conductor in the bus that run from Maricka

6 to Prijedor.

7 Q. Did Dr. Stakic's brother, the one you call Baco, did he work in

8 the iron ore mine at Omarska?

9 A. No. No.

10 Q. Did he ever have any other siblings?

11 A. The only brother I know is this one. I don't know of any sisters

12 that he had. I've never been to his house. I know where his house was.

13 I didn't go into the house. I used to pass by because I know his

14 neighbours, Vidak Stakic, Dusan Stakic, and the entire neighbourhood I

15 know. But I have never been into his house nor was he ever in my house.

16 Q. Did you know a driver in the mine called Milorad Stakic?

17 A. I do. I don't know what his name is, but his nickname is Mico.

18 That's what we all call him. And what is his official name in the

19 identity card, I don't know. I've never inspected his identity card. And

20 amongst us worker, we used nicknames and we called him Mico. For example,

21 my nickname was Vule. Nobody ever called me by my real name. We all had,

22 so to say, our internal names.

23 Q. I want to move now to the delegation we were discussing just

24 before the break. Do you recall anything --

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. In order that we don't have to come back

Page 11558

1 to this area. You just mentioned, "I do know a driver in the mine called

2 Milorad Stakic. I don't know what his name is, but his nickname is Mico."

3 I really don't understand this answer. May I ask you what is the link for

4 you between Mico and Milorad Stakic?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It must be a mistake. There is only

6 Mico Stakic.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So then once again, the question -- apparently

8 it's not yet answered. Did you know a driver in the mine called Milorad

9 Stakic?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know any Milorad. I only

11 know Mico Stakic. But I don't know whether in his identity papers his

12 name is something else. We all call him Mico, if that is what we mean,

13 what we have in mind.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this clarification. Your

15 testimony now is that indeed there were -- there was a person working

16 there called Mico Stakic; correct?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mico Stakic exists. He still

18 exists. And he still works in the mine, Mico Stakic. That's what we

19 workers call him. And what is written in his birth certificate, I don't

20 know. We all call him Mico. If that is clear.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this clarification.

22 So you may proceed, please.

23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Sir, my question was: Did anything unusual -- do you recall

25 anything unusual happening the day that you saw this delegation in the

Page 11559

1 Omarska camp?

2 A. I noticed and I heard songs. The detainees were singing Serbian

3 songs.

4 Q. Where were the detainees who were singing these songs?

5 A. Can you please show me the drawing, the map, the sketch, that is,

6 and I'll show you.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could the witness please be shown document S15-2

8 once again and --

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I've got a fresh copy which I'll

10 actually get the witness to mark, a fresh copy of Exhibit S15-2.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let's proceed this way. But it's still the same

12 document, S15-2.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: If you could just place that on the ELMO.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I can see there is a problem.

15 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, I'm not sure if it's a problem. Just that the

16 Court can engage me and explain while why we did the direct we were unable

17 to have the witness mark a document but they can now. I mean, they can

18 mark it. But just perhaps at another time the Court can just for my

19 benefit and edification explain why when I asked the witness, the Court

20 rejected my application. But let's proceed --

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I had the impression you appreciated the

22 description and based on this description, it was satisfactory for the

23 outcome and what you wanted to outline by your line of questions. But

24 let's wait and see whether it's really necessary to have another document

25 marked. We'll proceed on the basis of document S15-2, full stop.

Page 11560












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts. Pages 11560 to 11573.













Page 11574

1 Please.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. What's on the ELMO at the

3 moment is a copy of S15-2.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I am fully aware of this. Please continue.


6 Q. Sir, you said earlier today that -- can you please point on the

7 ELMO machine where you were standing, where you were working.

8 A. I was working here, in this part.

9 Q. Could you take --

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Would Your Honour like the witness to mark this

11 exhibit?

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think at the moment we should do it as we did

13 it previously. The witness pointed at the same point. If you could

14 describe it, please, for the transcript.


16 Q. Sir, you're pointing to the administration building -- the corner

17 of the administration building. As we look at the photo, where the

18 triangle is, at the bottom right-hand corner of the photograph, you're

19 pointing to the side of the administration building nearest that triangle

20 and you pointed in your evidence in chief, as I believe it -- as I

21 understood it, to the corner of the administration building just before it

22 goes into the restaurant -- cafeteria.

23 A. This is the east side. This is not where you go into the

24 restaurant. You go into the restaurant from the west, if you get my

25 meaning. This is the east here.

Page 11575

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I don't know what's north, south,

2 east, or west, but for the record is Your Honour clear where the witness

3 has pointed? So it is the side of the -- near the cafeteria and the

4 corner of the administration building away from the garages.

5 Q. Is that what you're -- is that where you're pointing to?

6 A. Yes. This is the east side of the administrative building.

7 Q. Yes. You're pointing to the side closest to the cafeteria of the

8 administration building.

9 A. Well, this is not the nearest point to the cafeteria. The nearest

10 point to the cafeteria is there.

11 Q. Sir, just pause there.

12 A. Here was -- these were the premises for the kitchen personnel and

13 the cafeteria was over there.

14 Q. Sir, put your pointer back to where you were working.

15 A. [Indicates]

16 Q. And for the record, that is near to the corner of the

17 administration building nearest to the cafeteria.

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Is that clear enough for the Defence and Your

19 Honours?

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It's in the middle of the right-hand side of the

21 model we can see depicted on this picture. Correct?

22 [Prosecution counsel confer]

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Because we don't -- we shouldn't discuss in

24 terms of north, east, south, and west. But I think it's fair to state

25 that in the middle of the right-hand side; correct?

Page 11576

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I think he was pointing more to the

2 top side, not -- not specifically right in the middle of the

3 administration building. It was more towards the cafeteria.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We can see at this side of the building

5 apparently in the first floor two white, maybe windows or whatever it

6 shall be.

7 And please once again - sorry for this confusion, Mr. Witness -

8 could you please once again point to this exact point where you were

9 working.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So when we can see at the right-hand side of

12 this model. The witness pointed now closer to the second window we can

13 identify to the -- from this side of the building also to the right-hand

14 side of the building. Would this be a correct description, or would the

15 parties have any problems with this?

16 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, just for the record, I want to state that the

17 witness identified it during the direct and that I think it's consistent

18 with that aspect of it. And if counsel wants to attempt to question him

19 on where he identified he was at, she's welcome to do so. But the

20 description is as it was in direct and as it is now in cross.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please continue.

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Sir, how far away from the wall of the building were you?

24 A. From the wall of the building, well, I'd say -- I never measured

25 it, so I can't tell you exactly, but it's about 4 metres, 5 metres. I

Page 11577

1 mean, I didn't take a measuring tape to tell you exactly it is 4 metres or

2 it is 5, so it's difficult for me to give you the accurate figure.

3 Q. I understand that. And that's an approximation of where -- how

4 far you were away.

5 Was there a ceremony for this delegation? Was the delegation

6 greeted by anybody?

7 A. I was working here at the time when I stopped there, so naturally

8 people got off, went behind the building, and I went on doing my job. And

9 I wasn't interested in that delegation. I merely heard the detainees

10 singing Serb songs. Because I was asked to look to -- to look after the

11 lighting. I wasn't expecting a delegation, or I didn't know when they

12 were coming, why they would be coming, who would be coming.

13 Q. You mentioned that the -- can you then just use your pointer and

14 show us again where the delegation walked, the ones you saw.

15 A. The delegation got off here, went round there, and then went

16 westward. And I was working there. I wasn't looking after them, wasn't

17 following them, and I couldn't know where they went.

18 Q. For the record, you said that they walked down to the cafeteria

19 restaurant building and then turned left and walked along the front of the

20 cafeteria building; is that correct?

21 A. You are slightly off the mark. They went here. This is the

22 northern direction. And this is then towards west. This part over here

23 is the restaurant, not this part, and they moved from this side and then

24 went on. That is, down the building and then moved on. And I couldn't

25 really keep my eye on them, and I wasn't really interested to know where

Page 11578

1 they were going or why they were going.

2 Q. Sir, just leaving aside north and west and -- did you see any

3 security persons with the delegation?

4 A. Yes. They had escorts with them. That is, there were armed guys.

5 And they went -- they got off their cars. The cars stayed where they

6 were. The drivers stayed in the cars.

7 Q. I want to move now to another topic. I've finished with that

8 photograph.

9 Sir, you testified about the water and that the drinking water

10 came from a well and there was industrial water also that came from the

11 River Gomjenica. Is that right?

12 A. It is.

13 Q. Did the guards have access to this industrial water supply?

14 A. What do you mean "guards"? Guards guarding the facility?

15 Q. The guards at the camp who were guarding the detainees, you said

16 that they were all around the buildings.

17 A. Around buildings, yes. But they had access to that industrial

18 water. We called it the washing point. It wasn't drinking water. It was

19 water to wash. So yes, I suppose they did. Why not? Some washed their

20 cars.

21 Q. Did you see evidence of crimes being committed in the Omarska camp

22 when you were working there?

23 A. When I worked there, in the early days of the camp - once again, I

24 can't say anything date-wise, because I didn't keep the record - but in

25 the early -- in the first days, I saw several bodies. And if you could

Page 11579

1 give me back the picture, then I could show you where I saw them.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, again, this is a copy of S15-2. And

3 I would like to ask the witness to mark on this photograph where he saw

4 the bodies.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We can -- let's first hear the testimony, and

6 then let's agree whether it's necessary to mark it or to describe it.

7 Could you please answer.


9 Q. Sir, you said in the first days you saw several bodies. Where

10 were those bodies?

11 A. The bodies were on the northern side of the restaurant, somewhere

12 here.

13 Q. For the record, you're pointing as we look at the photograph to

14 the left-hand side in front of the left-hand side of the cafeteria

15 restaurant building; is that correct? Before the -- before you see the

16 lawned area. Are you pointing to the area to the left-hand side of the

17 cafeteria on the cemented area before the grass? Is that correct?

18 A. On the lawn, on the grass. If we are looking west -- if I turned

19 westward, then it is to the right of the restaurant. I don't know from

20 where you are looking or if you are looking from the west when you say

21 "left." To my mind, this is to the right of the restaurant, if we're

22 looking in the east-west direction.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think now it's really necessary that we mark

24 this point because it will be extremely difficult to follow at this time

25 the testimony without in further marks on it. And it's for the Defence to

Page 11580

1 come back to this later on if they so want. Because the last time we got

2 a clear explanation and it transpires from the transcript, but here it's

3 no longer possible to follow.

4 This would be then S15-2-2.

5 If the witness would please take a marker and mark the position

6 where he believes ...

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean, I cannot do it down to an

8 inch, but it's here.


10 Q. Can you mark next to the circle that you've just drawn the number

11 "1."

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. How many bodies did you see?

14 A. As far as I can remember, there were five, maybe six. It was a

15 long time ago. I don't know how well my memory still serves me. But it

16 was thereabouts. Once again, I did not write it down to tell you whether

17 there were exactly five or exactly six.

18 Q. And just so we're crystal clear, these were dead bodies, were they

19 not?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. Did you see any other bodies while you were working in the Omarska

22 camp, any other dead bodies?

23 A. I saw them later on. But once again, I cannot tell you how much

24 later. Later on, however, I saw two more bodies in front of the white

25 house. I never went near it. It was -- I was going this way. I was

Page 11581

1 going down this pavement performing my jobs, and I did not -- I could not

2 come closer because the police would not let me to do that and for my own

3 safety's sake I had no wish to go near it.

4 Q. Would you take the marker and draw again where you saw those

5 bodies and put next to that the number "2."

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Did you see on any other occasion dead bodies in the camp?

8 A. After that, I never saw bodies again. It was only on those two

9 occasions.

10 Q. When you testified in the Omarska trial on the 6th of February,

11 2001, do you recall saying - and this is for Defence and Your Honours at

12 page 7447 - do you recall stating then that you said, "On more than one

13 occasion, I saw one or two dead bodies near the white house"?

14 A. Well, that's it. I saw two bodies. Perhaps it was interpreted,

15 worded different. I don't know.

16 Q. You were asked in the Omarska trial -- I will just put the

17 questions and answers to you. You were asked: Did you ever have an

18 opportunity to see bodies? And you said -- answer: At the very beginning

19 of the functioning of the camp, I saw several dead bodies.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please, the page number and --

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Your Honours. 7446.

22 Q. You said: Answer: "They were located behind the kitchen

23 building. That is, behind the restaurant of the mine near the pit. There

24 were some containers on the northern side of the complex."

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The Defence, please.

Page 11582

1 MR. OSTOJIC: I have an objection to the attempt by counsel to use

2 this transcript for purposes of impeachment. It's rather clear if you

3 read it in context, starting from page 7446, when this witness previously

4 testified consistent that he saw --

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please, no argument. If you want to have a

6 broader scope that should be read out, please tell the other party.

7 MR. OSTOJIC: It's not a question. I'm basing my objection

8 because she's already asked the question. If the Court reads the question

9 that counsel omitted to on page 7446, line 25, and then reads specifically

10 the answer of the witness, I think it will be clear for all of us.


12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'm trying.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I understand your objection in this way, that

14 you want -- that both the question and the answer be read out.

15 MR. OSTOJIC: Specifically -- -- specifically the prior questions

16 as well. Because I believe that it's misleading and mischaracterises

17 prior testimony.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In order to avoid that we have to come back to

19 this issue later on, I'll ask the Prosecution to start at that point on

20 page 7446. The Defence believes it's necessary to start with the line of

21 questioning.

22 Could you indicate the line.

23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour --

24 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, I can, Your Honour. It commences on line 15.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you have problems with starting with line 15?

Page 11583

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour. And I was taking the witness to

2 the very question and answer that the Defence objected to in the middle of

3 my question.

4 Q. Sir, I will start again, and I will read in relation to what the

5 questions and answers that were put to you in relation to seeing dead

6 bodies in the Omarska camp when you testified two years ago.

7 The question was: "Mr. Vuleta, throughout these 20 days that you

8 spent in the Omarska camp, did you ever have an opportunity to see

9 bodies?"

10 Your answer was: "Yes."

11 You were asked: "When?"

12 You answered: "At the very beginning of the functioning of the

13 camp, I saw several dead bodies."

14 You were asked: "Where were they?"

15 You replied: "They were located behind the kitchen building, that

16 is, behind the restaurant of the mine near the pit. There were some

17 containers on the northern side of the complex."

18 You were then asked: "Later on did you ever see any bodies

19 again?"

20 You replied: "Yes. On more -- on one more occasion I saw one or

21 two dead bodies near the white house."

22 And I apologise to counsel and the Court.

23 So it was only those two occasions --

24 A. Well, isn't it the same, what you read and what I said? You were

25 mentioning some containers at the mine, at the pit, but there are no

Page 11584

1 containers here, so there is something wrong with the interpretation. But

2 I said the same thing. Perhaps you have in mind some containers and that

3 there were bodies in containers, but there are no containers. I said that

4 there was a container -- a pump collecting sewage, and perhaps you

5 confused that with the container containing bodies. So perhaps -- why,

6 we're talk at cross-purposes.

7 To the north, behind the restaurant, there is a pump which

8 collects sewage waters and then pumps it out. So perhaps -- and that we

9 also call containers, so perhaps that's why a misunderstanding arose.

10 Q. Thank you for that clarification. You said that you worked 24

11 hours on and had 48 hours off and that you slept in the electrical

12 workshop.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. There were approximately 1.000 to 2.000 detainees kept in the

15 hangar building, were there not, on the first floor and the ground floor?

16 A. Well, these are some general estimates that I made. I didn't

17 count those men, nor did I have any lists to know exactly. So these are

18 some approximate figures. From what I could see or what I estimated, but

19 it need not be accurate. I mean, if I see a throng of people in the

20 street, I cannot really say whether there were 500 or 550 or 400. But

21 generally speaking, a rough approximation.

22 Q. During the night-time, did you ever hear cries and screams coming

23 from within the hangar building?

24 A. I could not hear anything, because I slept. As I've explained it,

25 if you can give me the marker, and I will draw the area where I was. And

Page 11585

1 the walls are thick there, so I simply couldn't possibly hear anything.

2 And besides, I live in a rural area. I work a lot. I really get tired.

3 And when I fall asleep, I simply can't hear anything. It's not as if you

4 could hear something from behind the wall here. I just couldn't hear

5 anything.

6 Q. You said that the electrical workshop was in the corner on the

7 ground floor of the hangar building, as you looked towards it.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were there other detainees detained in the rooms near the

10 electrical workshop?

11 A. Yes, in the adjacent room. Yes, there was a certain number of

12 detainees there.

13 Q. You weren't able to hear their -- any noise coming from anywhere

14 within the hangar building at night-time.

15 A. All that one could hear before I fell asleep was people talking,

16 and I mean -- I don't know how to explain it. I couldn't -- I couldn't

17 hear any -- practically any major -- now, how shall I explain it to you?

18 Q. That's okay. We can move on. From -- the detainees that you saw

19 in the hangar building, did you -- did you notice any bruising on their

20 bodies?

21 A. No. No, I didn't see anyone bloodied or anything. There were no

22 visible marks.

23 Q. How many toilets are there in the hangar building, if you know?

24 A. In the hangar -- well, once again, I can't be precise. I should

25 say that there were -- first there were wash basins with the taps, and I

Page 11586

1 think there were about five or six on one side and on the other sinks with

2 faucets. And I'm sure that there were five or six WC cubicles and at

3 least six male urinaries, but perhaps -- urinals. But I didn't count

4 them. Perhaps there were more. I've been thousands of times there. But

5 one can check it easily.

6 Q. During the time you were there, between -- I'm interested in the

7 period May to August -- end of May to August. What were the conditions of

8 these toilets?

9 A. Well, you know, conditions weren't really particularly hygienic.

10 Many people came there. There was a sanitation service which put chlorine

11 in there and there was a water hose and one could wash it. But to tell

12 you the truth, it wasn't all that clean. But considering that it was

13 wartime, I'd say it was accessible.

14 Q. Isn't it the case, though, that those toilets were clogged up

15 very, very early on and these were the toilets that these one to two

16 thousand detainees had to use?

17 A. Well, I can't really definitely say that nothing was clogged or

18 anything, but there was water and there was a hose and one could wash it.

19 But there was also another toilet in the building up here. I mean, in the

20 administrative building on the lower level. There were also toilets here.

21 Q. I want to move now to another topic. In relation to the food,

22 it's the case, isn't it, that you didn't either cook or distribute the

23 food?

24 A. No. I was no cook. I was an electrician. I didn't distribute

25 food. But I was in the kitchen. I was -- I went to the kitchen in order

Page 11587

1 to maintain, repair, be it refrigerators, or the heating installations,

2 lights, so that I saw the food being repaired.

3 Q. How often were the meals taken over to the cafeteria once they

4 were cooked? Were all the meals taken over at one time?

5 A. Well, that is something that I can't really -- I know that food

6 was transported. Whether it was all done in one go or in two or how many,

7 I don't know that. But be that as it may, the food was taken over.

8 Perhaps it also depended on the kind of vehicle. There were small

9 vehicles. There were bigger vehicles. I don't know how -- so I can't

10 tell you really whether it would all be taken in one go or on two

11 occasions. I really don't know that.

12 Q. Did you ever see the food being put onto a truck?

13 A. Why, food was carried over, and I think it was a small truck.

14 Naturally, nobody carried it on his back.

15 Q. Was it a TAM truck?

16 A. Yes, it was a small truck. We all called it TAMIC, little TAM.

17 Q. Could the witness be shown a photograph.

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, if that could be marked as S15-41,

19 which I think is the next number in the bundle of photographs.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Madam Registrar, could you please be so kind and

21 confirm that 41 would be the next one.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then provisionally marked S15-41.


25 Q. Sir, looking at the photograph in front of you, was that the sort

Page 11588

1 of truck that was used to transport the food?

2 A. Yes. But this one, this couldn't be that one, because this one

3 doesn't have wheels, does it?

4 Q. That's true. It doesn't have wheels now. But it did have wheels

5 certainly in 1992.

6 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, I object to the form of the question, Your

7 Honour. Because this picture certainly doesn't depict the vehicle as it

8 looks "now," and counsel should, for the record, at least tell us when the

9 picture was taken. We certainly know it wasn't taken today.

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I --

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: First, sustained.

12 Second, I think we can read it from the picture.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I was just about to give the source

14 of the photograph.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the date also is readable.

16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. This photograph was taken in February 1996

17 within the Omarska mine by members of the OTP.

18 Q. Sir, you have identified that as a truck that was used to

19 transport the food; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: I've finished with that photograph.

23 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. Are you able to read the registration number on

24 that truck?

25 A. I don't know if this was exactly this one. I can see the

Page 11589

1 registration plate. There were several such vehicles. There was not just

2 one of them. Because there were several vehicles in the mine across

3 various parts of the company.

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the audio-visual director please zoom in on

5 the number plate.

6 Q. Sir, are you able to read the number plate now?

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: You can zoom out a little bit.

8 A. Yes. 545- -- 64 -- 46.

9 Q. Does it read "PD 545-46"?

10 A. Yes. But this registration plate has been changed. I don't

11 recall this registration plate. This registration plate existed before

12 the war, and then during the war or after the war they were replaced by

13 the Cyrillic ones. Whether these registration plates were used during the

14 war, I haven't a clue.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: I've finished with that photograph.

16 Could the witness please be shown S379.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In the meantime, objections against the

18 admission into evidence of this photograph?

19 MR. OSTOJIC: No objection, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence, S15-41.


22 Q. Sir, could you take a moment to read that short document.

23 Have you read the document?

24 A. I have.

25 Q. You stated in your testimony yesterday on page 70 other people who

Page 11590

1 had worked at the mines who were then given a work obligation to work at

2 the camp. I want to take you through this document and I want you to tell

3 the Court -- if we go to part 2, the permanent shift employees in the iron

4 ore mine, if you recall what their duties were in the mine.

5 So if we can start with the first name, Dusko Vlacina.

6 A. Can I start answering?

7 Q. Please.

8 A. Dusko Vlacina was some sort of a manager or director, a technical

9 director.

10 Q. What was he doing after the end of May 1992?

11 A. I don't know. He was not in Omarska. He was in Prijedor in the

12 main administration. I believe that he was a member of the management. I

13 believe that he was a technical director. But I can't be sure. In any

14 case, he was in Prijedor together with Nedeljko Vujicic, Branko Drljic --

15 I don't know Branko Drljic. Milorad Serdar.

16 Q. Sir, you can pause there. I want to do this systematically and I

17 want you to go through those persons listed under the "Permanent shift

18 employees," and I want you to tell the Court those names of the people you

19 knew and what obligation they had from the end of May 1992 and only those

20 names of the people that you remember that were working there and the duty

21 that they had. I don't want to know what position they held when they

22 worked in the mine prior to their work obligation.

23 Sir, as you go down that list, do you know the person mentioned at

24 number 2, what his duties were -- what his work obligation duties in the

25 mine were?

Page 11591

1 A. I don't know. I don't know what his duties were.

2 Q. Number 3?

3 A. Drljic -- Branko Drljic. I don't remember this man at all, Branko

4 Drljic. It is possible that he worked in the separation plant. He did --

5 in the pit where I was, what could he be doing there? He may have been in

6 the separation plant. Maybe something to do with the water pumps. I

7 don't know.

8 Q. Okay. Maybe we can move this along a little faster. Can you

9 point to the people -- can you name the number of -- and the name of the

10 people that were drivers.

11 A. Kicema Branko, Milorad Stakic were drivers. But again, a problem.

12 We all call him Mico. But maybe in the books he's recorded as Milorad.

13 That may be the same person. I don't know. I've never inspected his ID

14 card, so I don't know.

15 Q. So you've just told us about numbers 10 and 11. Is there anyone

16 else listed that you recall being a driver?

17 A. I remember that there was Pero -- driver Pero, but he is not on

18 the list here. Pero ...

19 Q. What about number 17, Vlado Kobas? Was he a driver?

20 A. Vlado Kobas was a locksmith.

21 Q. That was prior to his work obligation. Do you recall what he was

22 doing on his work obligation?

23 A. Under his work obligation, he was in the workshop all the time

24 doing some welding. I think that from time to time he also drove, but he

25 is not a driver by profession. He didn't work as a driver in the mine.

Page 11592

1 Q. In the Omarska trial, when you testified, you mentioned three

2 drivers of TAM trucks. And this is for Trial Chamber and Defence at page

3 4769 [sic]. You mentioned Mico Stakic, a person called Pero Mrdja, and

4 Vlado Kobas as being drivers of TAM trucks. Do you remember that?

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: On the transcript maybe it's a mistake. It

6 reads "4769." I think you make reference to "7469."

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.

8 Q. Do you recall that testimony in the Omarska trial?

9 MR. OSTOJIC: I would just object to the form of the question

10 again, Your Honour, and based on the Court's prior ruling I would just

11 respectfully request that counsel puts the specific question and the

12 answer given as previously so that the witness can answer the question

13 without any mischaracterisation.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please proceed this way.


16 Q. Just so that I'm not mischaracterising any evidence, I will take

17 you back a question or two.

18 Question: "What was done with the bodies that you saw lying

19 inside the Omarska camp? You've told us that you saw bodies I think on

20 more than one occasion. What was done with those bodies?"

21 You answered: "They were taken away somewhere. I didn't take

22 them. I don't know. How should I know? I was doing my job. I had

23 nothing to do with that."

24 Question: "Who took those bodies away?"

25 Answer: "There were people who transported them. I was not

Page 11593

1 authorised to drive them off or anything else."

2 Question: "Who transported the bodies away from the camp? Who

3 drove them off?"

4 And you answered: "There were drivers. Mico Stakic and Pero

5 Mrdja. Vlado Kobas was also a driver. He drove the vehicle. But who

6 actually drove, I don't know. I didn't see that."

7 "What sort of vehicle was used to take the dead bodies out of

8 Omarska camp?"

9 You answered: "The mine had a small vehicle which we called a

10 TAMIC. It was a TAM van, yellow. All the mines' vehicle were yellow. And

11 the workshop had that particular vehicle at its disposal for its affairs

12 around the compound."

13 MR. OSTOJIC: I would respectfully request, so that it's placed in

14 its proper context, the next two questions and the next two responses be

15 read for the witness as well.

16 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm happy to do that, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So please proceed.


19 Q. The next question was: "How many times did you see bodies being

20 transported in that yellow TAM truck?"

21 Answer: "I did not see that at all."

22 Question: "How do you know that the bodies were taken away in the

23 TAM truck? That's what you just testified to."

24 And you answered: "As the vehicle existed, that was the only

25 vehicle that existed, so nobody could have carried the bodies on their

Page 11594

1 backs."

2 Sir, do you remember that testimony?

3 A. I remember that testimony, but I did not see the vehicle that took

4 the bodies away. Maybe the police came or the military. I know that

5 there was this particular vehicle in the workshop, but I didn't see it

6 taking the bodies away. Maybe a military team came or a police team came

7 for the purpose of taking the bodies away. I don't know. I do not claim

8 that it was this precise vehicle. What I said was that that vehicle was

9 at the disposal of the workshop. For instance, when I had to go to the

10 well, which is 5 or 6 kilometres away, or to the separation plant, which

11 was 2 kilometres away, it brought in food. I didn't see who was it who

12 collected the bodies and who took them away. Maybe it was the military

13 with a military vehicle or the police with a police vehicle. I didn't see

14 it. I'm not claiming that it was the truck belonging to the mine that

15 took the bodies away. It could have easily been another vehicle that I

16 didn't see.

17 Q. My question to you is related to the drivers, not -- at this point

18 I don't want to talk about the dead bodies being taken away from the camp.

19 I simply want to know whether there's anybody else besides three persons

20 that you mentioned when you testified in the Omarska trial, that is, Mico

21 Stakic, Pero Mrdja, and Vlado Kobas that you remember as being drivers of

22 the trucks, the TAM trucks?

23 A. Well, the mine was still operating, there were a few more drivers.

24 But I don't think that they were there when -- let me see if Branko Kicema

25 is still here.

Page 11595

1 Q. Yes, you mentioned him. He's listed at number 10. What I'm

2 interested in is --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Looking at this document, S379, are there any other names listed

5 between numbers 1 and 28 in part 2 that were drivers as part of their work

6 obligation from the end of May until at least the end of August 1992.

7 A. Drivers -- drivers were Branko Kicema, Milorad Stakic, Pero Mrdja,

8 but Pero Mrdja is not on the list. Those were people who were drivers.

9 And there were probably other people who could drive. So whether any of

10 them drove, despite the fact that they were not drivers -- maybe somebody

11 else who was not a driver could have taken a vehicle, because they could

12 simply drive. They knew how to drive. I don't know.

13 Q. Just in relation to Pero Mrdja, did you know this person?

14 A. Yes, I do. He was a driver employed by the mine. He worked in

15 the mine as a driver.

16 Q. I'm sorry. I may have confused you. I meant did you know him

17 personally? Do you know whether he's related at all to Dragan Mrdja?

18 A. I really don't know whether they are related. I know the guy

19 worked with me for six or seven years. Who is he related to, I haven't a

20 clue. I know he lives in Prijedor. I don't know his address, but I know

21 that he lives in the town.

22 Q. I'm sorry. I misspoke. I meant to say Darko Mrdja.

23 A. I don't know. I don't know who he is related to. I just know the

24 guy from the mine from the time when we worked together. Who his

25 relatives are, I really haven't the faintest idea.

Page 11596

1 Q. Okay. When you were driving around the mine to the well and to

2 the pumps, did you drive the TAM truck or did someone else drive for you?

3 A. I was usually driven by Pero Mrdja. I believe that we were

4 usually on the same shift, that he was in my shift.

5 Q. During the spring and summer of 1992, fuel was a precious

6 commodity, was it not?

7 A. Yes, it was more expensive than gold itself.

8 Q. And TAM trucks, they ran on diesel fuel?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Would you agree with me if I said that you could travel

11 approximately 100 kilometres on 15 litres of fuel, 15 litres of diesel?

12 MR. OSTOJIC: Let me object to the form of question. I think,

13 Your Honour -- although counsel may be an expert in terms of fuel

14 consumption. It obviously makes a difference on the weight and other

15 factors that can contribute to the consumption of fuel, whether it's

16 diesel or gas. I guess that would be my objection.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objection dismissed. Please continue.


19 Q. Sir, can you answer my question. Do you agree that you could

20 travel on 15 litres of diesel approximately 100 kilometres or so?

21 A. I didn't drive, and I didn't watch the consumption. It depends on

22 the type of vehicle. Do you mean the TAM vehicle?

23 Q. Just a normal average TAM truck.

24 A. It depends on the horsepower. I can't tell you, because there are

25 bigger lorry, smaller lorries, all sorts of lorries. It depends on what

Page 11597

1 you have in mind.

2 Q. For example, the TAM truck shown in photograph S15-41.

3 A. I really never put fuel in it. I never drove it. I didn't

4 measure the consumption. It may be possible, but no, I can't give you any

5 answer. I can't say either yes or no. I really never drove that type of

6 a lorry. I never put any fuel in it. I never measured the consumption of

7 that lorry. I never tested it for its consumption. I really cannot give

8 you any answer. I can't say either yes or no, nothing.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I notice the time. It's 5.30. Would

10 you like to take a break now, or may I continue?

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The trial stays adjourned until ten minutes to

12 6.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 5.26 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 5.50 p.m.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. And please continue.

16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Could the witness be shown a bundle of one exhibit with a number

18 of pages within it, which is a new exhibit.

19 And for the Trial Chamber's and Defence's benefit, these documents

20 were seized by the OTP from the second floor of the Separacija office

21 building, the Omarska iron ore mine on the 26th of February, 1996.

22 Your Honour, there are 14 reports within that one exhibit, and if

23 it could be marked as Prosecution Exhibit S395, I think is the next

24 number. Copies were provided to the Chamber and Defence.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, that is clear. What is the ERN number of

Page 11598

1 the first page? Because I can't see any?

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Down at the very bottom, Your Honour, 00381813.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: That is also the number of the next page.

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: I will read the 14 ERN numbers so the record is

5 clear.


7 MS. SUTHERLAND: So the second one -- sorry, the first one is

8 dated the 2nd of June, 1992. The ERN number 00381813.

9 The second one is dated the 4th of June, 1992, ERN 00381826.

10 The next is dated the 6th of June, 1992, ERN 00381774.

11 The next one is dated the 7th of June, ERN 00381850.

12 The next, the 9th of June, 1992, ERN 00381840.

13 The next, 10th of June, 1992, 00381865.

14 The next, 11th of June, 1992, 00382907.

15 Next, 12th of June, 1992, 00382917.

16 The next is the 15th of June, 1992, 00382949.

17 The next is the 16th of June, ERN 00381776.

18 The next is the 18th of June, 1992, 00381732.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. Doesn't it read "18th of July, 1992"?

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, we provided Your Honours and counsel

21 with these -- with two additional pages. I'm taking them in chronological

22 order. If you take these two pages from the registrar, the two pages she

23 has in her hand.

24 So chronologically after the 16th of June, we have the 18th of

25 June, 1992.

Page 11599


2 MS. SUTHERLAND: ERN 00381732.

3 The next, 19th of June, 1992, ERN 00381731.

4 Next, 18th of July, 1992, ERN 00382961.

5 And finally, the 19th and 20th of July, 1992, ERN 00382962.

6 Your Honours, we have provided an English translation only of the

7 first page, which sets out the headings of the document, and they are

8 reports on the fuel quantities received.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If there is no protest, Madam Registrar, it

10 would be provisionally marked as S395; correct?

11 So please continue.

12 MR. OSTOJIC: Just so it's clear, the Defence does have an

13 objection to the document, Your Honour, and we --

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In the moment, it's only provisionally marked,

15 as usual.


17 Q. Sir, can you take a moment to look through those documents.

18 A. Yes, I've done that.

19 Q. Thank you. Do you recognise these documents?

20 A. This is the first time I see these documents.

21 Q. Do you know why one truck would in a 12-day period, that is, from

22 the 2nd of June to the 19th of June, over 12 days, do you know why they

23 would consume over 477 litres of fuel?

24 A. No, I don't know. Perhaps they were engaged in contraband. It

25 was very expensive, so perhaps they were selling it somewhere.

Page 11600

1 Q. Or perhaps they were transporting bodies from the Omarska camp to

2 other locations.

3 MR. OSTOJIC: I'll object to the form of the question. It calls

4 for speculation.



7 Q. Sir, looking at these documents, you have stated yourself that a

8 number of the drivers -- earlier in your testimony you mentioned, for

9 instance, Branko Kicema, Vlado Kobas, and Milorad Stakic. Do you see

10 their names within these documents -- and Pero Mrdja?

11 A. I see -- I see Vlado Kobas. Let me see. Branko Kicema, Vlado

12 Kobas, Vlado Kobas.

13 Q. So looking at the first document, the 2nd of June, we can see that

14 Branko Kicema was driving TAM truck PD 545-46, which is the same TAM truck

15 in the photograph that you saw earlier, S15-41, is it not?

16 A. It is, yes.

17 Q. If we go to the next document, the 4th of June, we can see Branko

18 Kicema again driving PD 545-46. We also see Vlado Kobas driving a TAM

19 truck PD 641-58. The next date, the 6th of June, Vlado Kobas again

20 driving TAM truck PD 545-46.

21 Looking alone at PD 545-46, we can see that it goes through 477

22 litres of diesel in that 12-day period at the beginning of June. You

23 mentioned that these were drivers from the Omarska mine. Do you know what

24 they would be doing to drive that many miles in those days?

25 MR. OSTOJIC: Let me object to the form of the question and also

Page 11601

1 object to the mischaracterisation as to the number of days between the

2 documents and to counsel' calculation. In addition to those two

3 objections, I would object that the question has already been asked and

4 answered.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer?

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it would be better you had included

7 three different questions in one. So if you could have a breakdown

8 question by question and then it would be maybe easier for the witness to

9 answer.

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'll rephrase the question.

11 Q. Sir, isn't it true the mine wasn't operating during this period of

12 time and that there was no -- there was --

13 A. No, no, no. No, no, no. No, no, no. Of course it was not

14 working.

15 Q. And therefore, the only activities that these TAM trucks and other

16 vehicles would have been used for was in relation to the Omarska mine, the

17 camp -- the Omarska camp, I'm sorry.

18 A. What we have here is a pure and simple theft of oil, and people

19 were selling it. They would get it. They would be issued with it, and

20 then they would either sell it to somebody or use it for their own

21 tractors, because at that time a litre of oil was 5 marks. 400 litres is

22 a lot of money, and that's the game we have to talk about, not something

23 else. But they covered it with these papers, saying that yes, so much

24 fuel was issued for that -- such and such vehicle. For instance, we have

25 here Milorad Vuleta, he got this diesel for his tractor, which has nothing

Page 11602

1 to do with the -- with the camp. Because there was all fuel in the camp

2 and then everybody tried to get for his own purposes this. I mean, that

3 was what it was, theft of fuel, nothing else but.

4 Q. I was referring to the drivers that you had mentioned as being

5 drivers in the Omarska camp while it was operational.

6 Sir, at the time the mine wasn't functioning, who would have

7 approved the use of fuel which you say was more expensive than gold?

8 A. Could you repeat when and who approved. During the camp time?

9 Q. Yes. When the mine wasn't functioning, who would have approved

10 the use of fuel?

11 A. Well, nobody approved anything. Whoever managed to tank it did

12 that. I'm not aware of anyone issuing any orders. I saw people coming

13 in their tractors to petrol stations, simply filling in their tanks and

14 leaving because there was nobody there. What we are talking here about is

15 theft, pure and simple, and contraband in fuel.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask you to make a clear distinction

17 between that what you know and what is your speculation, please. A short

18 time ago you told us that you have never seen the papers -- these papers.

19 And later on, page 42, line -- where is it? -- Line 15, "They covered it

20 with these papers." So if you haven't seen these papers before, I think

21 would it be correct to assess this would -- it's speculation, or do you

22 have any indicia or even evidence that at that time petrol was in fact

23 stolen?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I never saw these documents

25 prior to this day. But I'm quite sure that this is fuel contraband. No

Page 11603

1 need for any further -- no doubt about it.

2 For instance, fuel was received by people who were never -- I

3 don't know, Kobas, BMW, I don't know. I mean it wasn't my job, and I

4 don't know who issued fuel, when issued fuel. I was busy. I have no idea

5 about any fuel, when, who issued it, how issued it. Who used it up, when.

6 That is something I don't know. But if you ask me something about

7 electrical engineering and high voltage, I'd be able to answer that. But

8 as for the fuel, I haven't the slightest.

9 [Prosecution counsel confer]


11 Q. Sir, the place where bodies have been exhumed from, Kevljani, how

12 far is that from the Omarska camp?

13 A. I don't know Kevljani. I've never been to Kevljani. How far is

14 it? Well, I can make another guess and we can haggle as on the green

15 market, but I've never been there. I don't know. Could be more than 10

16 kilometres. I don't know. I have no idea. I really cannot answer it.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I have no further questions.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

20 Questioned by the Court:

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Today's transcript, page 12, line 21 you

22 testified on the question, "There no beds at all, no." How is it possible

23 that you can come to this conclusion or to this testimony? Did you visit

24 all the buildings and all the rooms in the hangar?

25 A. May I? May I start talking? In the beginning, when the camp

Page 11604

1 started, there were no beds at all. I spotted -- I started spotting some

2 beds in the latter half of August. I remember how the troops, the

3 military, brought in some beds, but I didn't have one. And in the early

4 days, there were no beds at all, and we saw that throughout the period. I

5 was speaking only -- I was referring only to the early days.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you have free access to all rooms in the

7 hangar?

8 A. No. No, I didn't have free access everywhere. I only worked in

9 those areas which were of vital importance as regards things electric. In

10 rooms where there were no important electric installations, I never went

11 into them.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May the witness please be shown document S15-17.

13 Have you ever seen such a room with such a number of beds and

14 mattresses?

15 A. This was a room in the administrative building, I think on the

16 ground floor. But I didn't go in there. I saw the troops bring beds only

17 once, but that was sometime I'd say in the latter half of August. Before

18 that, there were no beds whatsoever.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you actually ever see detainees sleeping on

20 the ground floor?

21 A. You mean in beds?

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No. Just -- your testimony was that beds were

23 brought only later. But, say, in the period end of May, June, July, did

24 you ever see inmates lying on the ground floor?

25 A. Yes, yes. The inmates were on the floor, yes, until -- until

Page 11605

1 those beds were brought in the second half of August. In the beginning,

2 yes, they were on the floor. Yes.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And could you please give us a description what

4 was the space available for one person in this room.

5 A. I can't do that, not in detail. But I know it was crowded. I

6 know they had very little room. I think they had to be -- to lie one next

7 to the other.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you see children there?

9 A. No. No, I didn't see children.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you see women there?

11 A. Yes. There were several women, and I came to know the mother of a

12 fellow worker of mine. She washed dishes in the cafeteria where the food

13 was distributed.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Why was it that she was detained there?

15 A. I don't know that.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you discuss with your colleague about this?

17 A. Well, I talked with my colleague who worked with me -- I mean, he

18 was under the same conditions, I mean, under the detention conditions, and

19 his mother was also there, and they went to see his mother and we talked,

20 that her son was there, that he was all right, that nobody was harming

21 him, things like that.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Is it your evidence that all, call it, staff

23 members, opposed to detainees, were specially marked? Wearing, for

24 example, some special insignia or something else that there could be a

25 clear distinction made between inmates, investigators, typists, and so on?

Page 11606

1 A. I don't quite understand the question. The difference between

2 inmates and investigators? Were they differently marked?

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: For example, you -- I think you mentioned

4 already previously how was it possible to identify you as being not an

5 inmate in Omarska.

6 A. Oh, yes, yes. I was marked. Yes, I did have this white armband.

7 And we who were under work obligation, we all had those white armbands.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Was it only those people under work obligation

9 wearing these white armbands or also other persons working there, maybe in

10 the kitchen, maybe as investigator, maybe as typist?

11 A. I did not notice the typists or other personnel, investigators,

12 that they had anything. No, I don't think they had any -- any markings to

13 distinguish them, as far as I can remember, because I never went into the

14 rooms occupied by investigators. I could see them only when they came in

15 the morning, on a bus, get off the bus, and enter the administrative

16 building.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you know Ms. Markovska?

18 A. Mrs. Markovska, no, I did not come to meet her during the camp.

19 I met her here in 2001, when we came here to testify in Mr. Kvocka's

20 case.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you meet her later again?

22 A. No. No, never.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you discuss with her the testimony?

24 A. No. No, I didn't. No, no, I did not see her.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You met her, but you didn't see her. In 2001.

Page 11607

1 The question was -- you answered, on page 47, line 13, "I met her

2 here in 2001." My question was whether or not you at that time only met

3 her or had a discussion with her.

4 A. We only met here at the time of the testimony in Mr. Kvocka's

5 case. We did not discuss anything.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Let's return to Omarska. Were there

7 special rooms for the detention of women?

8 A. I do not know whether there were any special rooms, but I used to

9 see women in the restaurant washing dishes, and they were in the

10 administrative building. Whether there was a special room assigned for

11 them, I do not know. I did not go there, so I really do not know.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Were there any prohibited area where you weren't

13 allowed to enter into?

14 A. Well, to begin with, access to the white house was prohibited for

15 me, and I couldn't really go -- go everywhere. I had certain itineries

16 which were safe, because there were also minefields around, and just

17 because of my safety I wasn't really particularly eager on going

18 everywhere, and I couldn't.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Why was it that there were minefields around?

20 A. Well, there were minefields behind the police in a ring which was

21 held by the army. I don't have a sketch to explain it. Perhaps some 150

22 metres away from the buildings, behind the buildings.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could the witness please be shown document S15-2

24 another time.

25 Could you please indicate where these minefields were.

Page 11608

1 A. I can't show it here, because we see only the end of the asphalted

2 area of the pista, and the minefields were down there. There's a petrol

3 station down to the south, and they were behind that petrol station, and

4 then to the north, because there is where Bare is, where meadows are, and

5 there were trenches which were held by the army, and that is where the

6 minefields were.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: These minefields, had they been there before May

8 1992?

9 A. No. No. No, they were laid when the inmates arrived, because in

10 those early days, in the beginning -- at the beginning there was -- there

11 were power cuts and there was chaos, so that later on I had to put up a

12 generator -- a power generator here in front of this administrative

13 building, and I had to put up the flashlights at these two corners to

14 light the area, because in the early days there were even some attempts at

15 escape and fire was opened. That is what I heard, because I wasn't there.

16 I mean, I didn't really see that.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May the witness please be shown once again

18 S15-2-2.

19 If you could be so kind and take once again the marker and mark

20 those places where you had to put up the flashlights.

21 A. May I also mark where the power generator was?

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If you could be so kind and mark the two

23 flashlights with "3" and "4." Because we had already 1 and 2, and now 3

24 and 4.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 11609

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And in which direction headed these flashlights?

2 A. Their lights were directed westward.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So that they would cover the so-called pista,

4 the area between the two buildings; correct?

5 A. Yes. We called it flower bed because here were flower pots.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So this would be correct that your testimony is

7 that the flashlights had the purpose to lighten the area between the two

8 buildings? Correct?

9 A. Yes, it is correct. When there was no electricity, then I would

10 switch on the power generator so as to be able to see the entrance into

11 the building and this area here.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And to the best of your recollection, you

13 testified - it's quite clear that you can't tell us now whether it was the

14 23rd, 27th, 30th of May - but how many days after your beginning with your

15 work under the work obligation in this area did you build up these

16 flashlights?

17 A. Again, I can't give you the precise date.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Was it before the detainees arrived or after?

19 A. No, no, no. It was after the arrival, maybe five or four days

20 after the arrival. Again, I can't give you a precise answer. I can't

21 tell you what date it was, how many days later. I know that people were

22 already there. There were very frequent power cuts. It would be dark in

23 the evening, and that's when we put the power generator here and connected

24 lights to that generator and we also conducted electricity to the

25 administrative building where the typists were and where the investigators

Page 11610

1 were so that they could do their job.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I then ask the usher to take my own copy of

3 document S15-16 and this be marked in addition with a "-1."

4 And could you please indicate with the marker where the

5 aforementioned -- where the aforementioned minefields were located.

6 I think the other way around.

7 A. Here you can't see the petrol station at all, but this is on the

8 southern side, so thereabouts.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the other areas you mentioned before?

10 A. No. It is here that I noticed them, but I believe that they were

11 also here on this side, across the road, somewhere around here. Or maybe

12 even here.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You didn't make use of your marker. Could you

14 please make use of this marker and indicate that we can follow -- at least

15 on my PC I can't see it. This one I can see, yes. And then where else?

16 A. [Marks]

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And who told you and cautioned you and warned

18 you that there were these minefields in order to protect your life and

19 limb?

20 A. I was warned by the army, because I would come from my house from

21 this direction here, from the west, and that's why I would always go in

22 the morning when it was already daylight. I avoided going during the

23 night. I was afraid that I might get killed.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Were there armed policemen protecting these

25 buildings?

Page 11611

1 A. Yes, there were. But they were around the buildings, around the

2 white house, and they were in front of the administrative building, and

3 here in the southern part --

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: [Previous interpretation continues] ... these

5 places were to the best of your recollection, these -- I don't know

6 whether it was police, army -- these armed persons were with a "P."

7 A. [Marks]

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So it would be your testimony that on the other

9 side of the hangar there was no armed police or army patrol?

10 A. The army was behind this part, behind the petrol station. The

11 petrol station is somewhere here. But in any case, there were guards all

12 around.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Armed guards.

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Why was it that you weren't allowed to enter the

16 white house?

17 A. I don't know. It must have been an order by the police. I don't

18 know. In any case, I didn't need to go in there. I didn't want to go in

19 there.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The final area I want to cover is the following:

21 How many delegations to the best of your recollection ever visited Omarska

22 during, say, end of May until September 1992?

23 A. I remember two delegations. The first one was the one that came

24 in luxurious cars, and the second delegation was in the second part of

25 August. And those were foreign journalists. I don't remember the date

Page 11612

1 again, but in any case they arrived as you can see here in front of the

2 administrative building. This is where they stopped. They were escorted

3 by the police, and I was here at the end of this big building.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The witness pointed to the area where he himself

5 marked a "P" in front of the administrative building for the area where

6 the journalists were, and he indicated that at that point in time he was

7 in front of the right-hand side of the hangar. Correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Relatively far away.

10 Did the journalists have --

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did the journalists have access to all the

13 buildings?

14 A. As far as I could see, I recognised them as being journalists.

15 They had cameras. They entered the administrative building as far as I

16 could see. This is where they walked. And later on I don't know where

17 they went. I went into the workshop. It was very hot. I was tired, so I

18 went take a rest. They took some photos. What photos they took, I didn't

19 see.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let's come back to the first delegation. I

21 think your testimony was extremely clear where this delegation arrived.

22 And is it correct that your testimony is that the delegation came with two

23 cars?

24 A. As far as I can remember, those were two luxurious passenger cars.

25 And as far as I can remember, one of those was a Mercedes and the other

Page 11613

1 one was a Golf, if my memory serves me right. Again, I cannot guarantee

2 that this is correct.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The two drivers remained in the car; correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And wasn't it your testimony that seven or eight

6 persons completed this delegation? Correct?

7 A. Yes, as far as I can remember. I did not count them, and I didn't

8 make a note of that, so I don't know whether there were seven or eight,

9 but thereabouts.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I haven't the transcript before me,

11 unfortunately. Could you please repeat the names of those persons you

12 recall having seen there.

13 A. I knew - and I will repeat - the president of Banja Luka

14 municipality Predrag Radic, then Simo Drljaca and Simo Miskovic. These

15 were the people I knew. I didn't know the others. They had armed escorts

16 with them.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would you estimate how many armed escorts had

18 they with them?

19 A. Well, as far as I can remember, there were two or three of them.

20 Again, I can't remember that precisely. It was a long time ago. It was

21 11 years ago.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: When you said "seven to eight persons," these

23 two to three were already included, or were they additional persons

24 protecting the delegation?

25 A. No. They were with the delegation, so I counted them in.

Page 11614

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You mentioned Mr. Predrag Radic. How did you

2 know this person? From television, from radio, from former visits to

3 Banja Luka?

4 A. I knew Predrag Radic from before the war. He was a very

5 successful businessman. I even saw him in Banja Luka in the street. I

6 saw him in the papers. And that's how I was able to recognise him.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And what about Mr. Drljaca?

8 A. Mr. Drljaca, I knew him because I would see him in the camp rather

9 often.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Why was it that Mr. Drljaca often visited the

11 camp?

12 A. Well, he was -- I don't know what he was by his position. I know

13 he was the chief of the Secretariat of the Interior. I only know that I

14 used to see him there.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Have you ever heard the term "Crisis Staff"?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would you know if so that Mr. Drljaca was at

18 that time a member of the Crisis Staff?

19 A. I don't know who the people were in the Crisis Staff. I only knew

20 that the Crisis Staff existed. That's what I heard. I don't know who was

21 in it, how it was, who had what position in it. I really don't know. I

22 was not into any political matters at the time.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Who was it from the municipality of Prijedor and

24 the person who was in charge of taking care about what happened in Omarska

25 that you, for example, received the necessary material that Omarska was

Page 11615

1 provided with the necessary or after following your testimony sometimes

2 even unnecessary fuel and all these daily necessities for to run Omarska?

3 A. Can you please ask that question again. I'm not sure that I

4 understood you correctly. So would you please be so kind to repeat your

5 question.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Was there any person, if any, from the

7 municipality of Prijedor taking care of the, say, hygienic situation,

8 the -- as it was your field where you were working in, the electricity,

9 that you had the necessary material and so on -- a person responsible for

10 the running of Omarska, that everything worked as foreseen?

11 A. I don't know whether there was any such person. I only know that

12 Simo Drljaca was there, that he could issue orders to people there. And I

13 don't know anything else. I don't know. I really don't know who it could

14 have been. Only Mirko Babic or the management of the mine could give me

15 orders, and for the rest I don't know.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Who gave you, for example, the order to put up

17 these flashlights?

18 A. Mr. Mirko Babic, the manager of the workshop.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And in hierarchy, who would be able to order

20 Mr. Mirko Babic to act or not to act?

21 A. I don't know. There was a chain of command in the mine, in the

22 mine structure. There was, for example, the manager. Above him was the

23 director. I am not familiar with the functioning of those structures. I

24 don't know what their sequence or order was. In any case, I received

25 orders from Mirko. Mirko received -- or may have received orders from the

Page 11616

1 director of the mine. And that was that.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So it is your testimony that the director of the

3 mine was, also at that time, when the mine as such was no longer

4 operational, was in the -- in this hierarchy, that he had some say in

5 Omarska? Is it really your testimony?

6 A. Well, I believe that he could do things that had to do with the

7 mine, with the processes in the mine, when something needed to be done in

8 the mine. There was the management of the mine and the management of the

9 mine could order things to be done. Nobody else could give me the order

10 to go and repair the electrical facilities. For example, nobody from the

11 police or the army could order me to go and repair the well. It was only

12 the management structure of the mine who could do that, the manager of the

13 workshop or whoever. And I believe that he took his orders from a higher

14 position, that is, from the director of the mine, that he was the one who

15 could order him. That was my understanding of how things were.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: To be more concrete, was there a kind of

17 separation of powers, one restricted to the running of the mine and one

18 limited to the responsibility vis-a-vis the detainees, or was there an

19 overlapping responsibility?

20 A. I believe that the mine did not have any authority over the

21 detainees, that it was up to the military and the police to do that, and

22 that the mine did not have anything to do with them.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would you have identified Mr. Kovacevic if he

24 would have been part of this delegation?

25 A. I don't know. I didn't know Dr. Kovacevic. I didn't know him.

Page 11617

1 Only now I can see his photo in the hospital. Before that I didn't know

2 him and I was never in the hospital and -- no, I wouldn't recognise him,

3 because I didn't know him at the time.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you know at that time Mr. Brdjanin, if he

5 would have been part of the delegation, would you have seen him?

6 A. I don't know. At the time I didn't know Mr. Brdjanin. But now if

7 I could go back to those times -- I don't know. I can't -- I don't know.

8 I can't tell you.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I see that you try hard to memorise that what

10 happened ten years ago, Mr. Vuleta. But can you tell me -- can you be

11 quite sure that in fact you saw the entire delegation, or may it be that

12 part of a delegation was separate and the cars not entering the area as

13 such?

14 A. I know that I saw the entire delegation. I saw them coming from

15 the direction of east and I saw them stopping where they stopped. I have

16 already told you that they passed by me, that they went behind the

17 restaurant and they were westbound.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Correct. You testified previously only briefly

19 that you heard the persons, the detainees, singing -- I believe you said

20 "Serb songs." What kind of songs were these?

21 A. Well, those were Serb songs. One of them is "Who says that Serbia

22 is little? Who lies that Serbia is little?" Then from "Topola to Radana

23 Gora." Then there was a song Vojvoda Sindjelic, and other Serbian songs.

24 I can't remember all of them.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: When did this singing start?

Page 11618

1 A. The singing started when the cars stopped there and when the

2 delegation passed by me and went in the direction of the west.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So it would be your testimony that in advance

4 there was no singing at all?

5 A. I don't know. I don't remember. There may have been. It's very

6 difficult to say one or the other. They may have been singing even before

7 that or they may have started when they arrived. I didn't pay too much

8 attention to that. I was thinking about repairing the damage to the

9 electrical line. I didn't even try to memorise the sequence of these

10 events. I only remember that I heard the songs being sung.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But wasn't it your testimony that you surrounded

12 the entire area in order to identify the place where this technical

13 problem was at that time, and when surrounding this entire area, no doubt

14 before you found this mistake and you repaired this, didn't you hear at

15 that time already singing of Serbian or Chetnik songs?

16 A. I don't know. Like I've told you, I'm not sure. Maybe I did.

17 Maybe they had been singing. I didn't have a tape recorder to record

18 that. I just remember that I heard the singing. At the moment when they

19 arrived, there was singing to be heard.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The detainees, were they lined up? And if so,

21 where?

22 A. The detainees were lined up in front -- I don't have it in front

23 of me to show it to you. They were lined up in front of the

24 administrative building and in the area on the eastern side, to the east

25 of that big building and on the southern side of this huge hole.

Page 11619

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: On the model -- on the picture we have before

2 us, on the side of the administrative building where we don't have the

3 restaurant, on the other side, and in addition to the left-hand side of

4 the hangar; correct?

5 A. Yes. On the south side of the administrative building; on the

6 eastern side of the big building of the hangar, and partly on one side of

7 the big hangar building, if I'm make myself clear.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the delegation of high-ranking persons, did

9 they pass these lined-up inmates singing Serb songs?

10 A. They arrived from Omarska, from the direction of the east, and

11 they arrived in the eastern side of the administrative building. That's

12 where the cars stopped. High-ranking officials got off the cars. The

13 drivers had remained behind. The officials went towards the rest, towards

14 the northern part of the restaurant, and from there on I couldn't see them

15 because I did what I told you I did; I wanted to finish that job.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

17 Judge Vassylenko.

18 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Mr. Vuleta, can you tell me the ethnicity of

19 the Omarska camp population.

20 A. In the Omarska camp, there were Muslims and Croats. There were

21 even some Serbs there.

22 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Were your acquaintances or friends detained in

23 the Omarska camp?

24 A. Yes. Yes, there were my fellow workers, my electricians, those

25 who used to work with me in the same mine.

Page 11620

1 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: And why they were detained?

2 A. Well, you know, they were detained because an attack had taken

3 place on an army column coming from Banja Luka somewhere. I'm not quite

4 sure where. Jakupovic, somewhere. Some part of Kozarac at any rate. And

5 they attacked the army there, and I heard that they had killed two

6 soldiers there. And after that, the attack on Prijedor followed and

7 fighting started there, and then naturally the army surrounded it and

8 those people were brought there in order to establish who had been those

9 extremists, who had attacked the army, who had organised the attacks, to

10 investigate that and naturally to then let honest people go home.

11 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Did your acquaintances who were detained in the

12 camp participate in the attack on Hambarine or Prijedor?

13 A. As far as I know, they did not. And those guys are still alive

14 today, and they always greet me.

15 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: I have no more questions. Thank you.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Judge Argibay.

17 JUDGE ARGIBAY: I don't have any.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask the Defence. How many questions do

19 you have?

20 MR. OSTOJIC: None, Your Honour. Thank you.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: None, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This concludes your testimony. We're grateful

23 that you came to The Hague and that you testified, that you gave us your

24 view and your memory. And it's extremely important to hear both sides,

25 and therefore thank you and we all wish you a safe trip home. Thank you.

Page 11621

1 May the -- may I ask the usher to escort the witness out of the

2 courtroom.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for listening to my story.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So it remains for us to decide on the admission

6 of evidence. This would be S15-2-2. Any objections?

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: None, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: That's the case. Admitted into evidence as

9 such.

10 Then -- I have lost the overview. If you could help me, please,

11 S15 --

12 THE REGISTRAR: -16-1.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objections? If not the case, admitted into

14 evidence as such.

15 THE REGISTRAR: And S395, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objections? The bundle of paper, put it this

17 way.

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I have no objection to S15-16-1.

19 But 395 was the Prosecution exhibit, so Mr. -- Mr. Ostojic --

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. It's only for Mr. Ostojic.

21 Please, you have the floor.

22 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. We do have an

23 objection to that document. As the Court duly noted on page 57, line 16

24 of today's transcript, my learned friend specifically said that these

25 documents were seized on February 26, 1996. The Defence would like a

Page 11622

1 couple of questions answered in connection with that seizure.

2 First of all, was it consistent with the rules and was it --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Will you slow down, Mr. Ostojic, please.

4 MR. OSTOJIC: I will. Thank you.

5 First of all, was it issued pursuant to the rules as the proper

6 subpoenas in another seizure was indicated or was it also a unilateral

7 attempt by the Prosecutor to seize documents?

8 Secondly, the Defence is enormously concerned that these documents

9 were not tendered in advance and they do not bear a 65 ter number pursuant

10 to the Rules.

11 Third -- there's a couple more.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. Let's come back to the question of 65 ter

13 numeration in connection with the three other documents we still have to

14 discuss.

15 MR. OSTOJIC: All right. I'd just like, if I can, on this third

16 one.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Of course.

18 MR. OSTOJIC: The third point, if the Court notes that the picture

19 that the Defence -- or strike that. The picture that the OTP utilises,

20 specifically S15-41 was shown that to this witness and produced to this

21 witness, and we had an objection as to the date of that exhibit. It was

22 clear that that tram, according to the OTP's testimony or statements, I

23 should say, that that document was photographed on February 23rd, 1996.

24 So the Defence is very curious to know how is it that they subpoena

25 documents three days' prior, yet were allegedly on the premises of the

Page 11623

1 iron ore mine taking photographs or pictures. And we'd like a clarity on

2 that. And we think that it's an important issue.

3 Finally, with respect to Exhibit 3 -- S395, the Court will note

4 that some documents have signatures on the sixth column of the documents.

5 Other documents and the predominant number of documents within Exhibit

6 S395 do not bear those signatures. We're perplexed as to how these things

7 continually and consistently happen. We have other concerns in connection

8 with these documents but we raise those four at the present time for the

9 Court.

10 [Trial Chamber confers].

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In line with the Rules and the guidelines on the

12 admission of evidence and for the reason that the witness testified on the

13 basis of these pieces of paper, to put it this way, this bundle of

14 documents is admitted into evidence.

15 The English one and single page translated S395A, and the B/C/S

16 bundle S359B-1, 2, and forth following, please.

17 We have to return to the question of 65 ter documents later. I

18 recall Mr. Lukic asked for the discussion in the presence of Mr. Ostojic.

19 Are there any urgent matters to be discussed today?

20 I know it's extremely difficult for the Defence to prepare a

21 proffer for Monday. The number of the witnesses we can expect for Monday

22 would be, question mark?

23 MR. OSTOJIC: It is -- it is a question mark, Your Honour. But

24 we'll attempt tomorrow night, as we have in the past, to e-mail to the OTP

25 and to the Chamber a copy of the proffer of the witness, and at the

Page 11624

1 latest, I would suggest that by 11.00 Sunday morning so that they would

2 have enough time. And I know it may be inconvenient for the Court since

3 we do convene early next week, but we will provide the OTP with the

4 amended proffer and we'll endeavour to do the same with the Court.

5 Because I do believe we have the e-mail of the proper Court personnel.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you have already the numbers and your 65 ter

7 number of the witness?

8 MR. OSTOJIC: We're not sure, because tomorrow they're arriving.

9 But I did list four of them, and we're just not sure of the order yet

10 until we meet with them tomorrow. We anticipate that it may be 053, but

11 we're not sure until we meet with him and then we'll make that decision.

12 And again, it involves scheduling for later in the week. This witness may

13 be lengthy, so we want to just make sure to put him in the proper category

14 so that he could finish his testimony.

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: We will prepare for 053, and it may be -- create

16 problems for us if another witness goes ahead of 053.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So may I invite the parties to concentrate on

18 S -- the yes. What was it? S53, that we all can try to prepare this

19 together for Monday. And please do the possible. I know it's extremely

20 difficult for you.

21 MR. OSTOJIC: We appreciate that. And we'll tell them immediately

22 once we make that decision. So if he's prepared today -- I mean, tomorrow

23 within 14 or 18 hours, he'll know exactly the one. But again, because of

24 the schedule, we'd just like to reserve that right. And we'll try bring

25 him if he's ready.

Page 11625

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So I can't see any additional urgent matters.

2 I thank all participants, and I apologise for once again,

3 especially on a Friday afternoon or evening, to have some overtime. But

4 it enabled the witness to leave The Hague and stay during the weekend in

5 his home country. I thank all of you, especially the interpreters giving

6 access to the testimony of the witnesses.

7 The trial stays adjourned until Monday, 9.00, in this courtroom.

8 And I wish a very good weekend for everybody.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

10 at 7.01 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

11 the 3rd day of February, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.