Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12422

1 Thursday, 20 February 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning. Please be seated.

6 May we hear the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. This is Case Number IT-97-24-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And the appearances, please, for the

10 Prosecution.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good morning, Your Honours. Nicholas Koumjian, Ann

12 Sutherland, and Ruth Karper for the Prosecution.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And for the Defence.

14 MR. OSTOJIC: Good morning, Your Honours. John Ostojic on behalf

15 of the accused, Dr. Milomir Stakic.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The purpose of today's session is first of all

17 to decide on the documents tendered by the Defence last Friday. They

18 should be read out before we start with this. Any new development on the

19 figures given by the OTP on the refugees to Prijedor from 1991 to 1993?

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: Well, we do have an affidavit, but we don't have

21 the formal version yet. The person is in another building and hasn't

22 actually delivered it. But I can give Mr. Ostojic a copy of the unsigned

23 affidavit this morning at the break so he can begin to review it.

24 And we do have a request, if the Defence knows, that they can give

25 us the order of the witnesses next week just so we can make our plans for

Page 12423

1 which lawyers will be handling which witnesses.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: There is -- there will be a scheduling order - I

3 think it's already filed - and it should be arrive immediately where one

4 can read. Do you have it already? May we please distribute it to the

5 parties. There you can find all the deadlines. Is it feasible for you,

6 we started the deadlines by Friday, only is it feasible for the Defence to

7 provide the Prosecution and the Bench with the order of the witnesses to

8 appear during the videolink next week?

9 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honours, Mr. Lukic has left this morning, and

10 he was going to contact me later this afternoon with the specific order in

11 which the witnesses will appear. I can provide that to the Court and the

12 OTP later this -- today.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: From the Prosecution, I can see some nodding.

14 So agreed.

15 Then in addition, acting under Rule 98, may we ask the Prosecution

16 to inform us maybe via affidavit whether or not in the database of the

17 Prosecution the personal dates of Dr. Stakic's brother are available. I

18 think it's time to end this fishing expedition.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, we will do that, and we will also provide the

20 Court, if Your Honour would like, and I think it's required, with

21 information about another person, another Milorad Stakic from Prijedor.

22 Our database shows two.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it's helpful that we finally come to a

24 conclusion. Thank you for this.

25 Any other issues to be discussed before we start with the

Page 12424

1 documents? I can see nothing.

2 Then I heard yesterday that the preferable option from the side of

3 the booths would be to read out the documents slowly directly from the

4 booth. And I think we should start in numerical order of the documents

5 presented. The first one would be with the Defence 65 ter Number 11. If

6 the Defence always could be so kind and direct our attention to those

7 parts you want to offer as evidence. If you could start with Document 11,

8 which --

9 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, we have highlight for the booth the

10 sections of the newspaper that we would like to have read. Thank you.

11 And we can do so orally for the Court as well. With respect --

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Especially for the transcript.

13 MR. OSTOJIC: With respect to Defence Exhibit 65 ter Number 11,

14 we're going to ask the translators to read the top centre portion of the

15 article which starts - I guess it's entitled "Vanredni prevoz za Zagreb,"

16 and it proceeds in three paragraphs following that title.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This is the only part from this page you want to

18 have admitted into evidence. Right?

19 MR. OSTOJIC: That's correct, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Right. It's a new attempt, and if we could

21 start. And I learned it wouldn't be possible to interfere when -- so

22 please let us wait until all the documents are read out when there are

23 additional problems or questions and -- because it causes some

24 difficulties with the one reading out the document has to move from one

25 chair to the other. So please, let's start this way. "Vanredni prevoz za

Page 12425

1 Zagreb," Document 11 in the middle, if you could start, please.

2 THE INTERPRETER: "Additional bus departures for Zagreb. A daily

3 total of more than 700 persons leave the platform of the Prijedor station

4 for Zagreb on Autotransport's buses. Several buses leave at 6.00 a.m.,

5 the earliest departure. More departures follow at 9.00 a.m., 12.00, and

6 3.00 p.m. Buses leave Zagreb to return to Prijedor at 9.00 a.m., noon,

7 4.00 p.m., and 6.00 p.m. There is a free transport line for Brozani

8 Majdan leaving the stop outside the bus terminal every Friday at 6.00.

9 "The ticket costs 180 dinars. Passengers are advised to book

10 their tickets for the early morning departures. Furthermore, they are

11 warned not to carry firearms to avoid trouble with the MUP and members of

12 the National Guard."

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It has to be added that this is a --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I have my microphone on. Okay, it should be

16 added that this is a clip from Kozarski Vjesnik of 9 August 1991.

17 Mr. Ostojic, correct me if I am wrong, the next would be 65 ter

18 number 34, Kozarski Vjesnik of 18th October 1991.

19 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes. Your Honour, unfortunately, we also wanted

20 Exhibit 65 ter Number 29 read which was previously identified as and I

21 believe admitted as Defence Exhibit D71B. Briefly, that was read by the

22 witness and not in its complete form. We wanted the exhibit in its

23 entirety read or at least translated for the Court if the Court feels that

24 the reading by the witness on the Friday before last was sufficient.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we discussed it and it was absolutely

Page 12426

1 sufficient, in case the Prosecution has some other --

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, just before we leave Rule 65 ter

3 number 11, I don't think the final paragraph of that newspaper article has

4 been read out. There's still one -- it's three paragraphs, and only the

5 first two have been read.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It might be helpful, and this is why I

7 interrupted in this point in time, that the Defence explain for our better

8 understanding why an article from August, from the 9th of August, 1991, is

9 of relevance for our case.

10 MR. OSTOJIC: Would the Court like that before the document in its

11 entirety is read out or after?

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please, could you please explain before we

13 continue reading.

14 MR. OSTOJIC: Certainly, Your Honour. As the Court knows, the

15 fourth amended indictment specifically charges a joint criminal enterprise

16 that commenced no later than October 24th, 1991. And also, those

17 allegations are incorporated in various counts of the fourth amended

18 indictment, specifically counts 7 and 8, although we feel this evidence

19 goes to counts 1 and 2 as well.

20 In addition, it's relevant because it attaches, we believe, some

21 credibility to the witnesses offered by the OTP when they state that there

22 was this attempt by the Serbs at subsequent periods, namely, after the

23 30th of April, 1992, to forcibly transfer and/or deport citizens of the

24 Prijedor Municipality. We need to show the Court, in light of Mr. Donia's

25 statement of the atmosphere of fear, what was truly going on in that time

Page 12427












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Page 12428

1 period and selected this article as merely one example of how there was an

2 exodus in our view voluntarily, which in our view under the law is

3 exculpatory which we can discuss I'm sure at a later point, showing that

4 at that time there were not only advertisements but articles clearly

5 suggesting and stipulating people were leaving the area for a reason and

6 that people were leaving the area voluntarily. We think for all those

7 reasons, this document is extremely relevant to keep everything in

8 context.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. May I then ask the booth to continue

10 reading out this third final paragraph of the Kozarski Vjesnik from 9

11 August 1991, 65 ter number 11.

12 MR. OSTOJIC: Before the booth does, may I ask a request, Your

13 Honour. May I make a request?


15 MR. OSTOJIC: If the first -- for example, the title, the booths

16 read it as a transport via bus. But the title doesn't really say that,

17 and on behalf of the Defence, we would just appreciate that the booth just

18 read what it says as opposed to giving their own interpretation or opinion

19 as to what it means. It may very well mean that these were transports

20 that were done via, but read it literally so we can have the literal

21 appreciation of the article, and then the attorneys in the Court will read

22 into it what they want. And I would ask that to be done consistent with

23 the remaining of the documents.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Mr. Ostojic, I think we shouldn't try to cast

25 some doubt on the integrity of our interpreters. When they translate,

Page 12429

1 they do what in their opinion is the best possible translation,

2 interpretation. So when you have concrete questions, please immediately,

3 ask whether the one or other word could also have another meaning. But

4 until now, in doubt, we have to follow the interpretation given by the

5 booths.

6 So where do you believe that the headline was translated or

7 interpreted in a wrong way?

8 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, if the Court could just tell me what the booth

9 said with respect to the title of the article, then we could start with

10 there and just compare it.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think you can read it from the transcript.

12 MR. OSTOJIC: That's why I make the objection, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Is it your submission that the title of the

14 article was not read out?

15 MR. OSTOJIC: No. It was read out, but he uses the word "bus."

16 There are other articles, Your Honour, that we're going to discuss which

17 talk about the voluntary departure of citizens via different mechanisms

18 and modes of transportation.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So please tell me which word you believe is

20 erroneously translated.

21 MR. OSTOJIC: I thought I did. The title doesn't bear the word

22 "autobuske," and yet the title has the word bus in it.

23 MS. SUTHERLAND: I don't think the title was translated. It was

24 asked to be read and Mr. Ostojic read it and so did you. But the English

25 interpreter started at the very first sentence, which says something about

Page 12430

1 the third word is is "autobuske," which would be pronounced bus.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: "Nove Autobuske."

3 MR. OSTOJIC: I understood that the title was read, Your Honour.

4 And if that's incorrect, then we'll just move forward from there.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So to avoid any other unnecessary problems,

6 could the booth be so kind and to translate the headline "Vanredni prevoz

7 za Zagreb" into English.

8 THE INTERPRETER: "Extraordinary transport for Zagreb."

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we heard this.

10 Then let's continue with the third paragraph of this article,

11 please, still the 9th of August, 1991, Kozarski Vjesnik. Please.

12 THE INTERPRETER: "Buses for Zagreb communicate daily with

13 stopping on the auxiliary stop of the Zagreb bus terminal. Tickets for

14 travelling on the Zagreb/Prijedor relation can be purchased from the

15 driving personnel."

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Then the question goes to the

17 Prosecution, does the Prosecution want to have translated other parts of

18 65 ter number 29, that is, I think, D71?

19 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I can just have a moment, Your Honour.

20 No, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Then we can move on to 65 ter number

22 34. This is an article from Kozarski Vjesnik, 18th of October, 1991. If

23 you could please be so kind, Mr. Ostojic, and indicate which part should

24 be.

25 MR. OSTOJIC: On Defence Exhibit 65 ter number 34, it's the second

Page 12431

1 half of the article that we would like read, or the article that appears,

2 I should say, on the second half of the page.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If you could please so kind and start reading

4 out this part. "Prijedorska privreda u ratnim?"

5 THE INTERPRETER: "Prijedor's wartime economy?

6 "Title: Crisis nearing its peak. Although the war has not yet

7 spread to Bosnia and Herzegovina, it has already affected the local

8 economy in Bosnia and Herzegovina to a considerable extent. The situation

9 in border zone municipalities appears to be somewhat more difficulty than

10 in the more central areas or those bordering on Serbia. Nevertheless, the

11 companies and businesses in Prijedor Municipality are collapsing one after

12 the other. The crisis seems to be reaching a peak. Some companies have

13 already closed down. Others are bound to follow suit sooner rather than

14 later. The products of Prijedor's economy are still very much in demand,

15 and there would be no shortage of potential buyers which only makes the

16 situation more difficult to bear.

17 "The Mira Cikota biscuit and waffle factory forced leave how much

18 longer? After the last supplies of raw material and energy sources had

19 run out during a month of reduced production around the middle of last

20 week, the biscuit and waffle factory had no choice but to close down its

21 production floors. The war in Croatia, difficulties with transport, and

22 the shortage of raw material" --

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry, in the moment, we can't hear anything.

24 THE INTERPRETER: A part of the text cannot be read out because

25 the photocopy is bad.

Page 12432

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It's a document -- so we can't do the

2 impossible --

3 THE REGISTRAR: I'm sorry, we hear the B/C/S in the English

4 channel.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, if the Defence does not have a better

6 copy, then we'll try to obtain it if we have it in-house if Your Honour

7 wants to skip it.

8 MR. OSTOJIC: These documents were provided at our request by the

9 OTP and we would appreciate that. I think we can just proceed and skip

10 that line and when necessary, we can come back to it.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think in your interest is to get the

12 information included in this document, and therefore we can't do the

13 impossible. Please read out that part you can read, but please indicate

14 that there is one line or another line you can't read. But please proceed

15 in this way. Thank you.

16 THE INTERPRETER: "Necessary for production of pastry and waffles,

17 as well as gas, the factory's basic source of energy have compelled the

18 factory to stop further production. A quantity of finished products are

19 stored in the warehouse. A container full of products ready for export.

20 However, under these circumstances, these cannot reach any of the ports

21 through which they have always been shipped to the near east, one of the

22 important foreign markets.

23 "The overall situation in the factory, once one of the most famous

24 across Yugoslavia, was only made worse by Croatia's declaration of

25 independence because the mother company of which the factory is a part is

Page 12433












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Page 12434

1 based in Croatian territory. As only one joint account was used for all

2 of the company's transactions, all cash flows have been cut off since

3 Croatia's secession, and the factory has been left high and dry. Even if

4 some of the buyers were prepared to pay for the goods already delivered,

5 the cash would not reach the right addressee. For this reason, all sales

6 of Mira's products have ground to a halt for the time being.

7 "Over the last days, the management has been taking all possible

8 measures to define the status of the factory amid these new developments.

9 However, until the difficulties are resolved and traffic is back to

10 normal, the factory's employees will remain on leave. Whether paid or

11 unpaid, no one can tell right now.

12 "The Celpak cellulose and paper factory, now the problem is wood.

13 After barely securing sufficient supplied of mazout and sulpher to last

14 for at least about 20 days, Prijedor's paper producers are facing a new

15 problem, shortage of wood. The present supplies of conifers in the wooded

16 areas will allow for another 15 days of production. Most of the imported

17 wood can no longer be delivered partly due to difficulty with transport

18 and partly because there is no money to pay for it.

19 "The domestic market is of little use as far as the supply of

20 wood, especially conifers, is concerned. On the one hand, the wood

21 cutting companies have been more than decimated by their employees being

22 mobilised and sent to the front. On the other hand, these companies, much

23 the same as all the others, have been affected by the general shortage of

24 oil and oil derivatives on the market. It is simply impossible to get

25 sufficient amounts of fuel to run the mechanic equipment used in

Page 12435

1 production.

2 "As in the case of pastry, waffles, and biscuits production,

3 market conditions seem relatively favourable for paper and paper-related

4 products. If transport were safe, it wouldn't be difficult to sell. Even

5 in the present situation, thanks mostly to private hauliers, whatever is

6 produced is sent immediately to the market leaving stocks empty of

7 finished products.

8 "Ljubija iron ore mines. Stopping production only a matter of

9 days. While others having trouble obtaining raw materials for production,

10 the biggest producer of raw material in our municipality is having trouble

11 obtaining sources of energy, but also shipping its iron ore. The fact

12 that roads and waterways are blocked and money proverbially short has

13 caused production in Yugoslav iron works to grind to a halt.

14 "Due to these circumstances, no ore has been dispatched from the

15 depot of the Ljubija iron ore mine over the last ten days. Dispatches

16 have diminished significantly over the last months. The monthly -- the

17 usual monthly average of 250.000 tonnes has plummeted to a total of less

18 than a hundred tonnes all together over the last three months. If the

19 supplies of coke to the iron works were back to normal and if the blockade

20 of roads and railways were lifted, we would soon be able to catch up with

21 our usual dispatch levels in no time all, claims Ostoja Marjanovic, the

22 general manager of the Ljubija iron ore mine. Continuing production under

23 these extreme circumstances would only mean new losses.

24 "At present, the iron ore mine still has about 50 tonnes of oil

25 in stock, which should allow some level of production to continue for

Page 12436

1 another five or six days. Unless the overall situation and traffic

2 conditions are back to normal, production can be expected to cease

3 altogether at the Ljubija mines.

4 "Heavy metal industry has suffered severe setbacks and total

5 disintegration in most of the former eastern bloc countries. In view of

6 this, all possible measures should be taken to at least preserve what we

7 still have. 'Once this crisis is over, which is bound to happen sooner or

8 later, heavy metal industry will again begin to boom in all places where

9 it has been kept alive,' says Marjanovic."

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

11 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, if we can just once again have the

12 source of the document and the date also included.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. We will do this immediately, but let us

14 first use -- or attribute an exhibit number to 65 ter Number 11. This

15 would be D72B. And the text can be -- a translation can be found on

16 today's transcript.

17 Then the article read out just a minute ago would be D73B.

18 Translation can be found pages 10 through 12 of today's transcript. And

19 this was an article, Kozarski Vjesnik, 18th of October, 1991.

20 The next one, correct me if I'm wrong, would be 78.

21 MR. OSTOJIC: That is correct, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You would like to have read out which part,

23 please.

24 MR. OSTOJIC: The part we highlighted for the interpreters, we

25 believe, is the middle portion of the page which starts with the

Page 12437

1 identification of the company named Santours which is the company the

2 witness testified to a week ago Friday. We would just like that

3 advertisement and the source and the date of the article read in if

4 possible.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be, then, D74B, apparently from

6 Kozarski Vjesnik, the 13th of March, 1992. And the advertisement of

7 Santours, please.

8 THE INTERPRETER: "Santours, new, new, new. Buses to Zagreb every

9 day. Direct lines, no changeovers. Departures at 5.30 a.m. For tickets,

10 reservations, and information, please visit our office at the Balkan

11 Hotel."

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And on the top of this part written in black - I

13 don't know whether you can read it - Hotel Balkan, telephone number

14 079/11-988. Correct?

15 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then the next one would be 65 ter number 79 and

17 D75B. Could you please guide us to the article you want to have read out.

18 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes. We would like obviously the source and the

19 date again as well as in the -- if we break the page down in half

20 laterally, it's the first article that appears on the right-hand side of

21 the page. So looking at the top portion of the page, it is the second box

22 from the right to left.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be within D75B a clip from Kozarski

24 Vjesnik, 13th of March, 1992. It's a problem with the photocopy, but I

25 don't think it's of importance whether it's page 14 or 16. But no doubt,

Page 12438

1 the 13th of March, 1992. It's only a little bit difficult to understand

2 because once you can read "Kozarski Vjesnik" and "the 13th of March, 1992"

3 in Latin letters, and then in Cyrillic letters.

4 But before us, we have articles or text, better, in Cyrillic

5 letters. Therefore it seems to be from page 16 of Kozarski Vjesnik of

6 13th of March, 1992.

7 Could you please start.

8 THE INTERPRETER: "Domet shareholding company Zagreb. We organise

9 removals and other transportation services from Zagreb to Prijedor. We

10 arrange for flats, houses, and other real estate to be sold or exchanged.

11 We provide legal representation in all proceedings related to forced

12 evictions. Come and visit us at Marsal Tito Street 96, Balkan Hotel.

13 Phone numbers, (079)27-676 and 21-633. And in Zagreb, (041)228-643

14 between 8.00 and 4.00 p.m."

15 Lower right corner, in parenthesis, "41917."

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Only this part of this page would then be D75B.

17 The next following would be 65 ter number 81. And then consequently,

18 D76B. Once again, you want to have read out the Santours advertisement?

19 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour. And the source and the date of

20 the article.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Apparently it's Kozarski Vjesnik from 20th of

22 March, 1992. Please start.

23 THE INTERPRETER: "Santours. New bus lines to Belgrade at ten

24 past 8.00 a.m.; to Novi Sad at 10.00 p.m.; to Salzburg, Sundays at

25 11.00 a.m.; and to Zagreb at 5.30 a.m. Direct line, no changeovers. For

Page 12439












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Page 12440

1 tickets, reservations, and information, please visit the office at the

2 Balkan Hotel. Upper left corner, Balkan Hotel, telephone number

3 079/11-988."

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Only this article would then be D76B from

5 Kozarski Vjesnik as of the 20th of March, 1992.

6 The next 65 ter number would be 211. That would be D77B. And

7 please, tell us to which article from Oslobodenje, Sunday, the 11th of

8 April 1992 you want to direct our attention.

9 MR. OSTOJIC: Directly on the right-hand corner, it's the third

10 captioned article "Vise od 30 hiljada Izbjeglica iz BiH." However, if I

11 may before I read this article, we also requested 65 ter Number 181 to be

12 read. So I'm not sure if it's out of order in the Court's group of

13 documents, but we can come back to that.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, let's come back to this, please, because we

15 don't have it.

16 Please, 211.

17 THE INTERPRETER: "In Croatian territory, more than 30.000

18 refugees from Bosnia and Herzegovina. Zagreb, 10th of April.

19 Vice-president of the government of the Republic of Croatia Mate Granic

20 informed the Croatian parliament that more than 30.000 refugees from

21 Bosnia and Herzegovina had been registered in Croatian territory by

22 8.00 a.m. this morning. 5.000 of them arriving yesterday alone.

23 "Most of these refugees are women, children, or elderly or

24 disabled persons. Most of them are currently staying in the Makarska,

25 Poca, and Slavonski Brod areas. Accommodation has been provided for all

Page 12441

1 of the refugees Mate Granic pointed out. With the support of

2 international organisations, Croatia will try to secure humanitarian aid

3 for the refugees as well as for those in Bosnia and Herzegovina whose

4 lives or livelihood are in danger. Finally, Granic announced that a

5 humanitarian convoy would soon be on its way to all areas of Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina that have been affected by the crisis.

7 "Signature, DZ."

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This was Oslobodenje Subota, 11th of April,

9 1992. And separately from this, the Defence offered another copy of the

10 same document.

11 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour. It was merely our attempt to try

12 to highlight that so that it can be read.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So we can forget about this.

14 MR. OSTOJIC: Unless the Court needs it for its own review, but

15 yes, we may.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then let's move to the next one. This would be

17 65 ter Number 225. And consequently, D78B. And once again, it seems that

18 you tried to highlight this article from Oslobodenje, from the 28th of

19 April, 1992, in a separate copy.

20 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So this would be the article on the right-hand

22 side, the first one.

23 MR. OSTOJIC: Correct, top right.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please start.

25 THE INTERPRETER: "Croatia. More than 200.000 refugees from

Page 12442

1 Bosnia and Herzegovina. Zagreb, 27th of April, Hina agency. According to

2 the data - the next word is illegible - provided by the office for

3 expelled persons and refugees, only to date, 201.311 refugees from

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina have been registered in Croatian territory today. Most

5 of the refugees have been received in the area covered by the regional

6 office for expelled persons and refugees in Makarska, 46.086 of them.

7 21.384 of them registered in Makarska itself.

8 "In the area covered by the Split regional office, 43.000

9 refugees have been received while 35.000 refugees have been received in

10 the Osijek area, 25.000 of them in Zupa. In the area of Novi Gradska, a

11 total of 20.000 refugees has been received. 20.000 of them in Slavonski

12 Brod. In the area covered by the Zagreb office for expelled persons and

13 refugees, 29.537 refugees from Bosnia and Herzegovina have been received."

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Anything else from this page, from Oslobodenje,

15 28th April 1992?

16 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be then D78B. And I have before me,

18 I don't know whether it has already been read out from the previous

19 exhibit, S4B, admitted in part the 3rd of May, 2002. Apparently you

20 wanted to have read out another part. Correct?

21 MR. OSTOJIC: Correct, Your Honour. We would like -- that's our

22 65 ter number 181. I apologise to the Court. I didn't realise that it

23 was previously marked as S4B. We just wanted the top centre article to be

24 read, which is highlighted.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I have some difficulties, to the left or to the

Page 12443

1 right?

2 MR. OSTOJIC: Actually, it's immediately in the centre, Your

3 Honour. The top centre portion. I'm looking at 65 ter number 181. So

4 perhaps we're not communicating on the same --

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Apparently, we don't have this. We have only

6 this one. May I ask the usher to present it to Defence counsel. This was

7 in the bundle presented that day, but not 181, as far as I can see.

8 MR. OSTOJIC: It's not the one that I was referencing, so my

9 apologies to the Court. And the Court is correct. The article that we

10 would like read is on the centre right-hand portion of this Exhibit S4B.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In order not to create confusion, this document,

12 then, should be provisionally marked D79B. If you could please start

13 reading.

14 THE INTERPRETER: "The world on" -- "The world on events in

15 Yugoslavia. Dark images from Bosnia and Herzegovina. 'In Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina, for the first time, there has been a direct eye-to-eye clash

17 between the federal army and the paramilitary,' says La Figaro. Paris

18 believes that the European union should not allow the conflict to escalate

19 into a full-blown war, from our permanent correspondent, Paris, 29 March.

20 "'Again the dark images of our war before the eyes of France.

21 The images of Bosnia for the first time, the scenes of bodies scattered on

22 the streets of towns in Bosnia and Herzegovina have made their way to the

23 TV screens with a bang. The powder keg ready to explode. That is how the

24 escalation of the Bosnian drama is being portrayed. The official France

25 is very much afraid of a potential bloodshed in Bosnia and Herzegovina

Page 12444

1 which would be much worse than the war in Croatia,' says La Monde.

2 "Commentators particularly emphasise that for the first time eye

3 to eye there has been a conflict between the federal army and the

4 paramilitary in Bosnia and Herzegovina, according to La Figaro.

5 'Reporters from Sarajevo report that the army accuses the Croatian

6 commander of inciting armed conflicts. They are trying to have the

7 western parts of the republic annexed to Croatia. It is a general

8 impression that the three ethnic and religious communities are finding it

9 more and more difficult to live together as neighbours,' says La

10 Liberation.

11 "France believes that the European union should not allow for

12 this conflict to escalate into a fully-blown war. That is why the

13 conflicts in Croatia are being pointed out and there is an assessment that

14 everything has been prepared for the renewal of a war.

15 "However, nothing is being said officially on the situation and

16 its deterioration on the front lines. Maybe because France is currently

17 preoccupied with its own problems after the crisis amongst the ruling

18 socialist party and their defeat. It is well-known, therefore, that -

19 illegible word - in Paris, advocates descending of blue helmets descending

20 into Bosnia and Herzegovina because this is the to be or not to be of the

21 Yugoslavia drama which threatens into turning -- threatens by turning into

22 a real tragedy.

23 "French blue helmets are starting to load on to ships today.

24 They will be transported from the Mediterranean harbour of Toulon to the

25 Adriatic coast, most of them to Rijeka. The exact number of soldiers that

Page 12445












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 12446

1 are leaving is 2.062, among who there are 460 volunteers who have signed

2 the document on readiness to participate in the peace mission of the

3 United Nations. In the Toulon harbour, we have already seen arriving then

4 units of the 9th division of the navy whose armoured vehicles are painted

5 white in keeping with the decision of the United Nations. These units

6 will be joined by the troops from the north of France whose task will be

7 logistic support to all the units of the United Nations engaged in the

8 peace operation.

9 "Signed by M. Podar [phoen]."

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it needs some clarification. I'm afraid

11 this was from D181, if Mr. Ostojic could help us with this, please,

12 because we don't have the document before us.

13 MR. OSTOJIC: I was actually trying to follow it on S4B, Your

14 Honour. So I think the interpreters would best be able to tell us, but I

15 think the Court is correct that they were reading from our submission of

16 65 ter number 181. But I think it would be best if they just clarify that

17 if the Court permits.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If we don't have it before us, we can't make any

19 decision. May I ask the OTP, do you have D181?

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, we have Defence Rule 65 ter 181,

21 which is Oslobodenje I think 30th of March. S4B is Kozarski Vjesnik 24th

22 of April.

23 MR. OSTOJIC: I understood the Court --

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm confused. I don't know where we have been

25 reading from.

Page 12447

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: That we don't have any confusions, this article

2 from Defence Exhibit 65 ter D181, this would be then D80B. And the only

3 article missing right now is the one on D79B, the previous and still S4B,

4 ERN number 02128340. I hope the booth has already -- and also this

5 article. And then you wanted which portion be read out, please?

6 MR. OSTOJIC: Again, just so the record is clear, the centre of

7 the page on the right. So the article that appears in a box on the

8 right-hand side of the page of S4B.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Right. Prijetna and so on. So this was and

10 will then be D79B, ERN number 02128340, Kozarski Vjesnik, 24th of April,

11 1992.

12 Could you please start.

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters don't have the text

14 unfortunately.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Can we make a collection with others.

16 MR. OSTOJIC: And I apologise, Your Honour. I asked the Registrar

17 to give us a copy because it wasn't in my documents to be read to the

18 Court. I had as my last one the document we just read. But I think the

19 Court is accurate.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I'm afraid the copies are not available, and I

21 think it's better for the booth to have copies and to be prepared.

22 Therefore, let's have the break already now that it can be copied during

23 the break and that the interpreters can have an eye on this article and

24 prepare for reading out and translating or interpreting this article.

25 I hope that we can solve all other -- resolve all other problems

Page 12448

1 raised beforehand immediately after the break. The trial stays adjourned

2 until a quarter to 11.00. Thank you.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.09 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

6 That we all know where we are, it's, once again, D79B, ERN number

7 02108340. May I ask the booth, you are prepared? So, please, start.

8 THE INTERPRETER: "Visible temporary relocation from Prijedor.

9 Neighbourly relations at test. Over 3.000 citizens of Prijedor, mostly

10 Muslims, have temporarily left Prijedor. Their new destinations are

11 Croatia, Slovenia, Austria, and Germany. Since the beginning of war

12 operations in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the neighbourly relations in

13 Prijedor have been put to a test. Obviously, in this town, there is

14 increasingly more fear and distrust, and the relations between Serbs and

15 Muslims have reached the lowest point because it seems that one think of

16 the others much worse than they are willing to admit it to themselves.

17 "The consequence of that are temporary locations and interethnic

18 disputes and clashes which arise primarily from the fact that each of them

19 think they have the same right to the state and its territories. What the

20 Serbs want, the Muslims do not want, and vice versa. And the stronger

21 these desires are, the stronger are their disputes, their distrust, and

22 hatred. The exclusive Muslims create on the other side the exclusive

23 Serbs, and vice versa. And this means that the distance is growing bigger

24 and that the uncertainty is also rising as to how the key disputes are

25 going to be resolved and whether the divisions which are imminent will

Page 12449

1 take place here.

2 "And while all this is going on, those with the weakest nerves,

3 but also the most cunning ones, temporarily leave the town and find

4 shelter with relatives and friends in Croatia, Slovenia, Austria, and

5 Germany. During the past 15 days, over 3.000 people have left the town,

6 mostly women and children. These are mostly Muslims. Day in, day out,

7 people buy more and more one-way tickets despite the fact that the fare to

8 Munich is 100 German marks, and to Frankfurt, 130 German marks.

9 "The passengers usually are not willing to speak of the reasons

10 for their departure, but it is obvious that the main reason for their

11 departure is fear. The departure of Muslims have instilled concern among

12 the Serbs because they are now afraid that this departure has been

13 organised. The more so that these passengers do not want to travel via

14 Serbia but via Croatia.

15 "Signed by R. Mutic."

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this. For the transcript, this

17 was once again an article from Kozarski Vjesnik, 24 April 1992. This

18 time, Exhibit D79B. May I ask the Defence, were there any other documents

19 you tendered at that time, last Friday?

20 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I then ask the Prosecution, objections to

22 the admission into evidence of the documents D72B through D80B?

23 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour. But the Prosecution would like,

24 if possible, the interpreters could read from Exhibit D73B the heading and

25 the first paragraph of the article which appears at the top of the page on

Page 12450

1 D73B.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let's wait a moment that the interpreters have

3 time to take this document and to have a look on it.

4 MR. OSTOJIC: Perhaps it would assist if we give them the Defence

5 65 ter number, which was 34, I believe, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It was 34, correct.

7 But in this case, it would mean that the entire page, Exhibit

8 Number D73B, would be admitted into evidence, and hereby all these

9 documents read out this morning in those parts where we can find the

10 translation with the assistance of the interpreters are admitted into

11 evidence under the numbers marked there. And I think, especially directed

12 this remark to Defence counsel, we should be more than grateful that

13 interpreters assist us in this way in reading out documents and

14 translating. That is not part of their job, and therefore I think they do

15 not have deserved the tone you used in the beginning of this morning.

16 From my side, on behalf of the Bench, I apologise vis-a-vis.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask, is it possible for you, do you have

19 this document with the 65 ter number 34 available in order that you could

20 please be so kind and slowly read out this article on Energopetrol from

21 Kozarski Vjesnik, 18 October 1991?

22 THE INTERPRETER: Ms. Sutherland, what part of the text do you

23 want us to read?

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: The start of the document, "Ni Benzina, Ni Sirove

25 Nafte," and then the ordered paragraph directly below that.

Page 12451












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 12452

1 THE INTERPRETER: Can the English booth have an extra copy of that

2 document, please.

3 "Energopetrol still faces shortages. Neither petrol nor crude

4 oil. The refinery in Bosanski Brod still again doesn't work. The

5 pipeline is blocked. And when the oil from Bosnia will finally reach

6 Bosnia, nobody knows. The bad situation and the supply of fuel of the

7 Bosnia and Herzegovina market is being used by private petrol station and

8 smugglers who smuggle petrol."

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this. This document is already

10 admitted into evidence. Therefore available for everybody.

11 May I please hear what would be the next document number for the

12 Judges.

13 THE REGISTRAR: J29, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We have only one copy of the book "The Serbs,

15 History and the Destruction of Yugoslavia" from Tim Judah. We didn't want

16 to waste any time offering this book in part, because it may be of

17 assistance for the historian to be called by the Defence. I only want to

18 direct your attention to pages 102 and 103. There you can read: "Pasic

19 was mainly interested in the creation of a Greater Serbia, combining, at a

20 minimum, Bosnia, Herzegovina and Montenegro which was also now under

21 Austrian occupation."

22 At the end of the same page, 102, it reads: "Also in 1915 the

23 Serbian Assembly had pledged itself to work for the liberation of all

24 Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes. The Yugoslav Committee was nervous that

25 'Realpolitik' would intervene and that Serbia would abandon this stance

Page 12453

1 in favour of a Greater Serbia. Indeed, in a bid to appease the Serbs, the

2 Allies, who were also trying to lure Bulgaria into changing sides with

3 promises of territory in Macedonia, were offering them Bosnia,

4 Herzegovina, Slavonia, Backa, and those bits of Dalmatia not reserved for

5 the Italians."

6 And the same page some lines later, it reads: "The Yugoslav

7 Committee wanted them to fight in the Yugoslav name, while Pasic, seeing

8 in this a 'Croat Army,' wanted them to fight under the Serbian flag. The

9 Serbian government also demand that officers create units 'imbued with

10 Serbian ideas, and which are willing to die for the liberation of the

11 Serbian hearth and for the unification of Serbdom and the Yugoslav.'

12 Disillusioned thousands of Croat and Slovene soldiers deserted. They were

13 among the first to see that, if there was to be a Yugoslavia, as far as

14 Pasic was concerned it was to be on his terms, especially as in the new

15 state there would be twice as many Serbs as Croats. In 1918 he wrote,

16 `Serbia wants to liberate and unite the Yugoslavs and does not want to

17 drown in the sea of some kind of Yugoslavia. Serbia does not want to

18 drown in Yugoslavia but to have Yugoslavia drown in her,'" on page 103.

19 For those who are interested, because we have mentioned several

20 times the name of Nikola Pasic, you also can find on page 110 of this

21 book, a photo of -- or maybe at that time a picture or painting of the

22 Serbian Kralj Nikola Pasic (1845 to 1926).

23 May I ask the registry please to distribute J29 in copy to the

24 parties.

25 When we are with the names, may I ask the Prosecution already

Page 12454

1 ready for the two names. Can you give us an explanation or...?

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: As to the Milorad Stakic, we will have to send an

3 e-mail to get a more formal response from the demographic unit. But what

4 we anticipate is that the demographic unit has data from the 1991 census

5 showing two persons with the name of Milorad Stakic from Prijedor, both

6 from the Omarska area or Maricka. I'm not sure if both are from Maricka,

7 at least one. The one who is younger than Dr. Stakic has the same

8 father's name as Dr. Stakic. And the other one has a different father's

9 name, Mlado. So we will obtain all of that information.

10 I'll ask the demographic unit to submit a very short report

11 phrasing the question to give us data on all persons from the Prijedor

12 Municipality with the name Milorad Stakic in the database from the census

13 of 1991, unless the Court or Defence would like to rephrase the question

14 or add any additional questions to that. This will also -- from the

15 census, she will also be able to give very broad categories of occupation

16 listed in 1991.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Any comments from the side of the Defence?

18 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I then turn to the scheduling order

20 distributed this morning. Are there any comments or any objections by one

21 of the parties to this new and revised scheduling order explicitly

22 mentioning those dates when motions, proffers, and so on are due?

23 Prosecution first, please.

24 MR. KOUMJIAN: We have no comments at this time. I just would

25 like to clarify, the Defence, the first expert will testify during which

Page 12455

1 week? The 12th, is that right? And we'll have the report the 3rd. I

2 think we can -- to say it again, I think that will be satisfactory to us.

3 MR. OSTOJIC: As it stands now, the first expert is scheduled to

4 testify on Wednesday, March 12th of this year.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This will be the military or the historian?

6 MR. OSTOJIC: The historian, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And may I ask, do you know already the date for

8 the military expert?

9 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, I do, Your Honour. We anticipate that the

10 military expert will testify during the week of March 17th of this year.

11 We can coordinate with the Court. We were anticipating having him as the

12 last witness testifying on the 19th and 20th and 21st of March of this

13 year.

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I just raise the possibility, in some

15 cases, rather than cross-examine the Prosecution has submitted a rebuttal

16 report. Once we get the Defence reports, we will discuss what our

17 requests would be, whether to just simply submit a rebuttal report by a

18 Prosecution expert or to bring the witness and cross-examine, if the

19 Defence does not want to bring the witness themselves. If that would be

20 acceptable to them. We can discuss it once we get the reports.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think based on the submission by both parties,

22 we can already now anticipate that in any event, there will be a

23 cross-examination and rebuttal necessary. And therefore, I appreciate,

24 but already now the Defence intends to call these witnesses in any event

25 because I think it's impossible to proceed with the document even though

Page 12456

1 we don't have it yet, but no doubt there will be problems and questions

2 arising from these documents. And therefore, please call in any event

3 both experts, also the military expert. I only heard with some concern

4 that it is envisaged to hear the military expert for three days, or was it

5 a misunderstanding?

6 MR. OSTOJIC: We will call the witnesses live. That was our

7 anticipation. I'm not sure why the Court has a concern that the military

8 expert would take an approximate three days. We can't anticipate how long

9 the cross-examination will be, and I just used as my guide the prior

10 experts that the OTP has called as a guide. If it takes less than a day,

11 that's acceptable to us, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Absolutely. But from the list and from that

13 what we discussed previously, you can see immediately that we have

14 approximately one witness per day minimum. So the parties should know

15 already now that we will proceed this way, that we take the real estimate

16 in the proffer as the time available for the Defence, and then the same

17 time for the Prosecution, and we'll try to show the best possible

18 self-restraint in order to have maybe more than one witness per day that

19 we have the remaining time to concentrate on the experts and maybe - I

20 don't know in how far it's necessary - the two alleged members of the

21 Crisis Staff in Prijedor. So please take this into account when sending

22 the amended proffer.

23 And in addition to this, it should not be forgotten that we expect

24 the order for next weeks' video testimonies today no later than 6.00 in

25 the evening.

Page 12457

1 Any additional remarks, especially what about March 7? Is it

2 already safeguarded that we have a courtroom? And if yes, which courtroom

3 available?

4 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. We will sit in Courtroom II

5 from 2.15 to 7.00.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So what we can read here is when -- we have to

7 make once again another change. Correct? Because in -- it reads, Friday

8 7 March, 9.00 to quarter to 2.00.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So may I kindly ask that we need not present

11 this document another time, to delete 9.00 to 13.45 and write, instead of

12 this, 14.15 to 19.00 hours, Courtroom II.

13 Anything else related to the scheduling order? The Prosecution

14 can live with the dates?


16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But I think the remarks were clear enough that

17 no extension of these deadlines can be granted any longer, save there is

18 an absolute urgent and convincing reason why it's not possible. But in

19 any event, we would need a justification in writing whenever the Defence

20 believes that it's not possible to live up to the expectations outlined in

21 this motion from the 20th of February, 2003.

22 May I ask, was it possible for the parties to discuss this report

23 on the data contained in the CD-ROM on the ethnic periodic breakdown of

24 registration of refugees into Prijedor 1991 to 1999? Of course, the

25 question goes first to the Defence, having provided this CD-ROM.

Page 12458

1 MR. OSTOJIC: We did receive, Your Honour, prior to the

2 commencement of this second session the proposed affidavit. And I have

3 reviewed it and I would like to discuss it with the OTP, but I do have

4 some concerns or questions relating to the affidavit.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: When can you be prepared to have this document

6 in a way that we can admit it into evidence? Would it be possible during

7 a break?

8 MR. OSTOJIC: If the OTP is available, I am available, Your

9 Honour.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Well, the only thing we were awaiting was the

11 signed, ERNed copy which I'm not sure -- this person is actually in a

12 different building. We would have to see if he has yet brought over a

13 signed ERNed copy so that for all time it's in the evidence database. But

14 if the Court doesn't want to wait for that, then this -- it's not going to

15 change the content. We have the affidavit here.

16 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may just make a brief comment since the Court

17 is inquiring. This is in my view, respectfully to the OTP, not an

18 affidavit which I was anticipating. This is actually their summary. And

19 they add their personal opinions as to when refugees were either

20 registered or when they arrived in Prijedor. So those are things that I

21 think are more opinions that if they would like, they can always call

22 someone in their rebuttal case.

23 All we were looking for in the affidavit was for them to attest

24 that they reviewed the document, the CD-ROM, and they found the various

25 categories, and that this is a summary of the breakdown and make a

Page 12459

1 declaration to that effect. They go a little beyond that, in my opinion,

2 and they go on to start telling us when the refugees arrived. The

3 refugees were registered. This is a registration book. That's how the

4 witness testified. The refugees may have come a year or two prior to

5 that. It's something that the parties will ultimately have to dispute and

6 try to convince the Court of.

7 So I think the affidavit is a little overbroad and far-reaching in

8 what I was anticipating to get, and that would be my objection to the

9 affidavit. And I would not want the affidavit to be introduced as an

10 exhibit because I think it's more than just an affidavit, and it's

11 actually an attempt to try to bring in rebuttal testimony at this stage.

12 If they want to present this later, we will have a right, I presume, to

13 cross-examine this witness on her conclusions or his conclusions.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think in this case, it was the OTP assisting

15 the Defence and doing the Defence work because it's for the Defence not

16 only to present a CD-ROM and say "here, take it and do what you want with

17 this CD-ROM, ask the witness." And we are grateful for the comments given

18 by the witness on this, though they are relatively limited. But it is

19 enough to understand that, in fact, it's on registration only and has

20 nothing to do with the arrival.

21 Another option, if you don't want to have an affidavit from the

22 Prosecution, I think it would be a possibility that you take the table as

23 such and tender this table in addition to the CD-ROM, without any

24 affidavit and without any additional remarks.

25 MR. OSTOJIC: If the Court recalls, that was exactly what we

Page 12460

1 proposed and we were in the process of verifying the data that was

2 provided within the table offered gratefully by the OTP to us. But we

3 haven't accomplished that. We will have to do that in the next couple

4 days.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then let's proceed this way: May I ask Madam

6 Registrar the exhibit number of the CD-ROM offered by Madam Kovacevic

7 during her testimony and then tendered by the Defence.

8 THE REGISTRAR: This was confidential exhibit D43, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Is there any need to treat this as a

10 confidential document in future, this table?

11 MR. OSTOJIC: Not the table, but the CD-ROM, yes, Your Honour, for

12 the same reason that the parties --

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Absolutely. I just wanted to be on the safe

14 side. Then this would be D43-1, a table, refugees to Prijedor by

15 ethnicity and period of registration; and table 2, number of Serb refugees

16 to Prijedor by year of registration. This document is without any

17 affidavit tendered by the Defence, and we take into account that the

18 Defence reserves the right to come back to this in case they believe that

19 the figures are not accurately reflected as we can read them from the

20 CD-ROM.

21 Accepted both for the OTP as well?

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence as D43-1A.

24 There is no problem that Dr. Stakic can read the outcome of this

25 assessment of the CD-ROM in a language he understands?

Page 12461

1 MR. OSTOJIC: Correct, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Therefore, there's no need for

3 translation.

4 May we come now to one of the core problems, that is the status of

5 translation of Defence exhibits. We learned this morning that CLSS unit

6 first received a copy of the Defence final list of exhibits dated 18th

7 November 2002 along with copies of the actual documents to be translated

8 on 20th November 2002. In light of the fact that many of the Defence

9 exhibits are newspaper articles, in order to facilitate their task, CLSS

10 returned the documents to the Defence and asked them to highlight the

11 specific articles to be translated.

12 On the 31st of January, 2003, CLSS received the marked copies of

13 the exhibits from the Defence. There was no deadline indicated on the

14 form accompanying the documents. It merely read "to be determined."

15 Thereafter, CLSS contacted registry, and it was agreed that the

16 translations would be provided as and when they were completed. To date,

17 this is the 20th of February, 2003, CLSS have provided the Defence with

18 1.406 pages of translated materials. It was agreed that the remaining

19 translations will be provided to the Defence by Wednesday, 26 February

20 2003 at the latest.

21 Is this correct?

22 MR. OSTOJIC: I don't know. I didn't speak to them, Judge. So it

23 seems accurate to me. I didn't realise they gave the deadline. We are

24 grateful for the Court's assistance in inquiring. I can just say by

25 background that we did, as the Court knows when we filed on the 18th of

Page 12462

1 November, 2002, not only provide the article but we specifically

2 identified the title of the article which we wanted translated, and then

3 it was several weeks later that we were asked to highlight the entire

4 article. But we thought there was enough guidance. Again, it's not a

5 criticism, it's just a comment, just so that the record is clear on that,

6 and we did ultimately highlight it for them.

7 I am confident the dates are accurate, and I am grateful they are

8 going to finish it next week. We did provide the Court once we received

9 whatever number of pages there were copies of the translated material that

10 were provided to us by the department.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask the Prosecution if they have received

12 1.406 pages of materials?

13 MR. KOUMJIAN: We haven't received any pages of translated

14 materials.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask the Defence what is the reason for

16 this?

17 MR. OSTOJIC: Over the course of the last two days I have

18 attempted to discuss with the OTP's case manager this issue, and the

19 miscommunication that may have occurred as a result of that. Even as

20 early as today, I had asked for a scheduled meeting so that we could

21 resolve that problem if indeed it exists. Their position is that they did

22 not receive the documents from our case manager. It was his recollection

23 that he submitted the documents both to the Court and to the OTP. We're

24 not questioning the fact as to whether or not the OTP is accurate.

25 We are going to provide them with another copy. We wanted and

Page 12463

1 intended to provide them with another copy based on their representations

2 this week. The photocopy machine in the Defence room has not worked all

3 week, so we have not been able to photocopy yet. I asked Ms. Karper to

4 meet with me after today's session so that we could go through the list,

5 both of previously translated documents and documents that the translation

6 department has provided so we could get that to them immediately.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: Well, we want -- whatever we can do to get the

8 documents, we are still waiting for them. We haven't gotten them, and

9 obviously we can't comment upon them or -- until we see the documents.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No doubt, we also have to read the documents,

11 and not only to receive the documents. I have to ask the Defence to take

12 the necessary steps that no later than tomorrow at the end of the working

13 hours, you have settled this problem and given the necessary translated

14 materials to the Prosecution. And to be honest, I'm not aware that the

15 Chamber received all these documents. But maybe I'm wrong. I would

16 therefore ask you to contact also the legal officer of Chambers to review

17 whether, in fact, we have received not only the B/C/S documents but also

18 the translations.

19 MR. OSTOJIC: We'll do that, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

21 And there is another problem. An investigator of the Defence team

22 wants to visit Dr. Stakic in the United Nations Detention Unit. The

23 policy of OLAD in the last years is never to grant such visits because

24 investigators are not entitled to privileged visits, so they can't

25 actually discuss the case moreover since only the lead counsel and

Page 12464

1 co-counsel represent the accused. And from the point of view of OLAD,

2 there is no justification for an investigator seeking instructions from a

3 client. And they, in fact, would not have additional resources for

4 visiting facilities to grant visits for counsel and investigators and

5 legal assistants.

6 May I ask, what about this problem?

7 MR. OSTOJIC: On behalf of the Defence, it's a serious problem.

8 We don't believe that OLAD has summarised it accurately. The investigator

9 is an attorney. He's licensed actively practicing. He has assisted us in

10 the case. We believe that his cooperation and assistance both physically

11 here and with coordinating with Dr. Stakic personally with my presence and

12 without for approximately a week to ten days will help facilitate and

13 expedite the proceedings here in the Chamber.

14 This is a request also just so that the record is clear when we

15 made, we advised the OLAD unit that we would pay out of our own pockets

16 the expenses for his travel, and we're not seeking reimbursement for that

17 because they raised an issue as to costs. All we wanted to do is to get

18 the approval so that he can visit with us Dr. Stakic in connection with

19 the remaining witnesses, to discuss them, to continue to formulate the

20 strategy, to discuss the proceedings that have occurred up to this point

21 so that he can assist us in the final pre-trial brief as well as outlining

22 and coordinating the final oral arguments.

23 We think it's a necessity for the Defence to have our team members

24 here, and we think it's a necessity for this individual to be here at this

25 stage of the proceedings. We have not made this request for any other

Page 12465

1 individuals, and we believe that we have not overburdened or taxed the

2 resources of the Tribunal in connection with this case. Specifically

3 since, as we mentioned before, the Defence is paying out of its own

4 pockets for our case manager and have utilised the investigator to the

5 best of our abilities to try to accommodate the schedule imposed by the

6 Court to further assist us in getting to a fair trial.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I hear the comments by the Prosecution on

8 this issue.

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I'm not sure that it's really

10 appropriate for us to comment about either the Detention Unit policies or

11 how the Defence conducts their Defence other than to say that we hope

12 that -- we know the Defence has been having a lot of problems getting

13 witnesses, and generally they need someone in Bosnia present there to make

14 sure the witnesses travel. We do not think that if this is denied, that

15 it would deny the right of a fair trial to Dr. Stakic because he does have

16 two Defence attorneys. Mr. Radulovic is not approved by the registry as

17 an attorney. So to say that he is necessary for the closing arguments or

18 for the brief, I don't think that that is required under the rules. But

19 again, it's a matter of policy that the Detention Unit which the OTP does

20 not have a particular interest in how they rule on their visiting hours.

21 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may briefly reply, there's just two things that

22 I think were mistaken about. First of all, it's not the Detention Unit's

23 request or prohibition that the visit be maintained with Mr. Stakic or

24 denied. Secondly, it's not Mr. Radulovic that we are seeking an

25 application for. It's of the lawyer that we have identified who has been

Page 12466

1 approved as an attorney by way of his background. The submissions on his

2 curriculum vitae have been reviewed.

3 Mr. Radulovic who is assisting us with the travel arrangements,

4 visa, passports, will continue to be in the terrain so there will be no

5 interruption whatsoever with the witnesses coming here in a timely

6 manner. However, this individual that we're speaking of, our investigator

7 who is an attorney, we are making the request for the first time for him

8 to come here to further assist us in concluding the case and to further

9 examine the evidence that we have as well as the testimony that has been

10 proffered so far so that we can in an efficient manner present it to the

11 Court.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think the correct way would have been that you

13 first, knowing the rules of the United Nations Detention Unit, put forward

14 a request to the Trial Chamber to rule on this. In the moment, it's only

15 the investigator contacting the United Nations Detention Unit directly.

16 And I think, first of all, it's a matter for the actual Defence counsel.

17 But if you please could be so kind to be more concrete, how many days do

18 you want to have this investigator to be with Dr. Stakic? Do you want to

19 have this investigator as a visitor alone with Dr. Stakic or always

20 accompanied by one of the Defence counsel?

21 MR. OSTOJIC: To reply in two parts to Your Honour's questions,

22 first of all, we did formally apply to OLAD both orally and in writing for

23 this investigator to come here to The Hague. And I'm not sure if the

24 Court is reading a separate letter that perhaps the investigator wrote to

25 the Detention Unit that I'm aware of. But as recently yesterday I spoke

Page 12467

1 with I believe the OLAD representative who told me that they have told us

2 orally that they have denied our written request and that we would be

3 getting their written denial sometime in the next couple of days.

4 We then said that we're at a loss as to the reasons, and that we

5 were going to make an application to the Chamber. We were unaware that in

6 such requests, we should make the application to the Chamber, so we made

7 it directly, the way in which we understood the policies, through the

8 representative of OLAD.

9 Secondly and more specifically with respect to the Court's

10 question as to the number of days, we envisioned that our investigator

11 would be here for approximately a week to ten days. And that we would

12 like him to meet with Dr. Stakic both in our presence and, if necessary,

13 outside our presence. Again, with the schedule that we have, the Defence

14 counsel may be engaged in preparing witnesses prior to their testimony, so

15 we would not be able to visit at that time in the morning or afternoon,

16 when it's available, with Dr. Stakic and our investigator.

17 If it's necessary that one of us be present, we'll certainly do

18 that. We have no objection to that. We do not believe it's necessary.

19 We will be meeting with this investigator in the evenings and any time

20 available so that we can coordinate our efforts to finalise, as I've

21 mentioned before, both our oral and written submissions.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We have to rule on this, your request. But once

23 again, as said previously, whenever you have a problem, please do not

24 insult or be aggressive vis-a-vis one of our staff members, and do not try

25 to give the impression, as it was apparently the impression by OLAD and

Page 12468

1 United Nations Detention Unit that you, Mr. Ostojic, are saying

2 "that this is what the Judge will order." We have been never seized with

3 this problem until now.

4 MR. OSTOJIC: I can -- I don't know what the Court is reading

5 from, and I can tell the Court quite frankly and candidly, I would be

6 happy to defend myself if someone is going to make an accusation like

7 that. And the individual who did say that if, in fact, that it's

8 accurate, it's absolutely not true.

9 We had a conversation yesterday. I was sitting at all times other

10 than when I greeted this female employee of OLAD. And I take deep regret

11 that she would categorise that without (a) copying us. The specifics of

12 that conversation was and I invited her to revisit her decision and said

13 the Court has invited us at any time if we have a problem to bring it to

14 their attention, and I simply stated that we wanted to avoid bringing this

15 to the Court's attention because we felt that it was reasonable and

16 appropriate request.

17 If she assumed that something was said in an aggressive manner,

18 I'd like for her to address it with me specifically. It was not. And at

19 no time was it ever insulting to her. In fact, quite the contrary.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Well, these were two separate issues. The

21 question how to discuss issues with, I emphasised, with one of the team of

22 the Chamber's staff. This was one question. The second question was

23 related to United Nations Detention Unit and OLAD. And it was only to

24 remind you that whenever there's a problem, indeed, we invited you to

25 contact us, but please contact us beforehand and don't anticipate that the

Page 12469

1 Judges will order, when we have not been seized with a special problem.

2 MR. OSTOJIC: The problem manifested itself yesterday after our

3 session ended, Your Honour. So there wasn't a problem until we perceived

4 it yesterday, although we had made prior requests to them. We will

5 contact the Court henceforth on all these issues. And I'm not sure what

6 the breakdown of the two questions were with your Court staff. But I'd

7 like to address it if the Court has a specific question on it.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We have first to rule on the question of whether

9 we can, in deviation of the proceedings in the Detention Unit, it is

10 possible to grant an additional visit for an investigator to Dr. Stakic.

11 Under the rules, even under this rules, these privileged visits are

12 limited to counsel and not to third persons such as investigators. So it

13 would be an exception from the rules. But let me hear, before we decide

14 on this finally, the comment from the Prosecution.

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think the only concern of the Prosecution if, I'm

16 not sure whether I understand these visits are to be unmonitored because

17 our concern is of course with those many issues come in closed session

18 that are privileged, is the Defence seeking unmonitored visits by this

19 individual?

20 MR. OSTOJIC: If the Defence were seeking it, we would ask it. We

21 didn't seek, therefore we're not asking for that.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It would come down to the problem that there

23 would be would additional personnel necessary from the United Nations

24 Detention Unit in order to monitor these visits and a person, no doubt,

25 who speaks the language. I don't know in the moment whether this is

Page 12470

1 feasible, whether they have the necessary resources. Therefore, please

2 wait until we have given our decision on this issue.

3 There was one other issue -- you wanted to have the floor, please.

4 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may, Your Honour. I apologise for the

5 interruption. We're going to withdraw the request for the investigator.

6 We didn't it was that big of a problem. There is a principle of equity of

7 arms. We thought that the request was simple. We are formally

8 withdrawing the request.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Can you please explain why this is a problem of

10 equality of arms?

11 MR. OSTOJIC: I think it's somewhat obvious. Because If you look

12 at the number of prosecutors and attorneys that represent the Prosecution

13 just in this case and the two case managers that they have as well as

14 other staff members at their disposal, their in-house witnesses, and

15 compare that to the budget and that which the Defence has, and I think

16 that it's rather evident, self-evident on the issue of equality of arms.

17 We don't want to have any problems with OLAD, the Detention Unit,

18 or what we consider to be a simple request. Therefore, we're just simply

19 withdrawing our request for this investigator to come, and we'll just

20 proceed in the manner in which we have.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It's not that easy. Ex officio, this Tribunal

22 has to take care that you have the necessary resources, and we have to

23 balance this. We take it now still as a standing request for having

24 visits, monitored visits, by the investigator in order to prepare

25 continuously the case. We are aware of the, in fact, different human

Page 12471

1 resources the parties have, and therefore as we outlined previously, we do

2 what is necessary and what is possible in order to assist you. Therefore,

3 we will contact OLAD and the United Nations Detention Unit whether this is

4 feasible or not and that you know.

5 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm not debating the issue with the Court. We just

6 want to be clear for OLAD and for the Detention Unit, it is not our

7 request. We are withdrawing the request.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So we take it that you can't -- that you don't

9 see any prejudice for your client not having this possibility contacting,

10 as previously requested, your client?

11 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, those are very complicated questions.

12 And perhaps OLAD and the Detention Unit can assist us in answering that.

13 I don't have the answer to that, quite honestly. And frankly, I'm not

14 prepared to tell you whether it will or will not have any prejudice to

15 us. We believe that we can proceed. We didn't want to make this a big

16 issue. It's a very minor issue for us. It's important for Dr. Stakic.

17 We thought it was important for getting the case to where we wanted the

18 case, to bring it efficiently under the Court's imposed schedule.

19 However if OLAD has a problem with it, which obviously they do and

20 obviously they made that decision, we can live with that decision. We can

21 live with the decision of the Detention Unit, but just so that the Court

22 is aware that there are monitored conversations even with counsel at all

23 times at the Detention Unit. And very rarely are there unmonitored

24 conversations perhaps with the spouse. Those individuals are available,

25 and I believe on a regular basis at the Detention Unit, just that some are

Page 12472

1 considered privileged and some not privileged. That's the only question I

2 believe that counsel raised. We never requested -- the issue has

3 obviously taken a different turn. We respectfully withdraw our request.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask the parties, there was one additional

5 problem, the question of the OTP contacting Defence witnesses as reflected

6 on the transcript, page 12.048 to 12.056. Is this an ongoing problem, or

7 has this problem been settled? Defence, please.

8 MR. OSTOJIC: It is an ongoing problem, and it has not been

9 settled. And we continue to maintain our position as we have highlighted

10 to the Court Friday one week ago.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask the Prosecution whether the

12 Prosecution would be prepared knowing about the problems we discussed at

13 that time that the Prosecution would regard it as an act of courtesy to

14 act or to inform the other party in advance?

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: May I have a moment.

16 [Prosecution counsel confer]

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, first, I don't believe -- I understand

18 that this witness testified on behalf of the Defence in this case. But

19 the witness is not to my knowledge represented by the Defence counsel in

20 this case. I think that would probably create a problem if the witness

21 was. I can check with the -- it is the Brdjanin team, and although I'm

22 part of it, I just haven't actually been involved in that because I have

23 been here, on what the status of the contacts with that witness are and

24 see what we can do. But if I understand what counsel has asked for, is

25 just for us to call counsel and tell counsel that we are going to call the

Page 12473

1 witness?

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Just to inform the other party in advance

3 because, to cut the long story short, we discussed lengthy that it's a

4 problem that we have different cases, but de facto one case, and it

5 happens that the witness being called here as a Defence witness may

6 testify in another case as a Prosecution witness. And this will happen in

7 the future more often than actually because, no doubt, when hearing the

8 cases against the other sides, the other ethnic groups, suddenly Defence

9 a -- a Defence witness will serve as a Prosecution witness there. We

10 can't resolve this problem as a general problem.

11 It's only in our case because we have in our case certain rules.

12 They are not applicable in the other case, as I have already stated. But

13 the question is only that as there are no general rules, how to proceed in

14 these cases when witnesses are testifying in one case on behalf of the

15 Defence, in another case on behalf of the Prosecution, that only those

16 witnesses that are witnesses of the Defence in our case, when they, in the

17 interest of the OTP, would appear in the other case, in concreteo, the

18 Brdjanin case. But as an act of courtesy and in the absence of general

19 rules, the Prosecution would be prepared just to contact or to inform the

20 other party in advance. This is the only question. I think more this

21 Trial Chamber can't do.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I'll pass that on that on the Brdjanin

23 case, we will not contact any further witnesses - there is one witness

24 we've contacted as counsel knows - without asking the Court. If there is

25 a reason for deviation from that order, for a deviation from that order.

Page 12474

1 Unless we get a deviation from that order for specific reasons, we would

2 tell the Defence for Stakic that one of their witnesses is going to be

3 contacted. I don't anticipate any more of the Defence witnesses being

4 contacted at the present time.

5 MR. OSTOJIC: Again, an issue that we raised several times that we

6 thought we had an understanding that we were going to get the professional

7 courtesy of a phone call prior to the contact. It was not done. She was

8 contacted again. The Defence earlier stated that it's frustrating our

9 current witnesses. The Court rejected that in essence.

10 We continue to maintain, although I don't know the schedule of the

11 Brdjanin case, but if the OTP really wanted to call a Defence witness in

12 any case, they could have waited until at least April 17th or March 21st

13 when our case closed. Presumably the Brdjanin case will proceed from my

14 understanding for several more months, and then they can call those

15 witnesses if they wish. But we believe it was an attempt and it was in

16 the middle of our Defence case, and we raised it with the Court

17 specifically with other witnesses that have advised us that they will not

18 testify because of this apparent approach by the OTP and the Victim and

19 Witness Unit who shared with them that information in order to make that

20 contact.

21 Again, all we reiterate is that before you call, give us a heads

22 up so that we could contact the witness, tell her that a phone call is

23 coming. We're not even asking to be present during those phone

24 conversations. We are requesting, however, that a phone number and

25 information be given to us of one of the OTP witnesses in the Brdjanin

Page 12475

1 case, I believe we made that request orally and we're going to request it

2 in writing formally so we may contact that witness as well.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: That it's quite clear, I think it's an absolute

4 misconception by the side of the Defence to believe that when they call a

5 witness, the witness is a kind of property and untouchable for any other

6 Defence team or the Prosecution. This is not the case. A witness is a

7 witness, and already in the beginning of this Tribunal in the Tadic case,

8 it was stated that whenever a witness enters a courtroom, it is a witness

9 of the Court and no longer a witness of the one or the other party.

10 Therefore, you don't have any special rights exclusively to hear this

11 witness. And therefore, to ask the Prosecution to wait until this case is

12 closed, this in no way possible.

13 But I think it is to that end settled that we heard from the

14 Prosecution, they do not intend to hear other witnesses from our concrete

15 case in the Brdjanin case. And if so, if something would change, I take

16 it that, as an act of courtesy, the Prosecution would previously, before

17 calling a witness or giving a phone call to the witness, inform the

18 Defence in our case.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, Your Honour, unless there was a specific

20 reason not to, in which case we would apply to the Trial Chamber.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Any other issues to be settled

22 before we have the prolonged break until Monday? This is not the case.

23 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then we hope the deadlines will be respected,

25 and we will already today have the first -- have the order of the

Page 12476

1 witnesses for the videolink next week, and we anticipate that we, by noon

2 tomorrow, receive the amended proffer for the videolink witness to appear

3 next Monday, that we are all in the -- enabled to prepare for this video

4 hearing. And we also expect the amended proffer for the witness to appear

5 live on Monday next week, or maybe we have to start hearing this, as it is

6 called in the scheduling order, standby witness, immediately. I wish

7 Madam Registrar a safe trip and a safe return to Banja Luka or wherever

8 the itinerary goes to.

9 The trial stays adjourned until Monday as scheduled.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

11 at 12.08 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

12 the 24th day of February, 2003,

13 at 2.15 p.m.