Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13423

1 Wednesday, 12 March 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.31 p.m.

5 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Good afternoon to everybody. Could the

6 Registrar please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon. This is Case Number IT-97-24-T,

8 the Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

9 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: And the appearances of the parties, please.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Nicholas Koumjian,

11 Ann Sutherland, and Ruth Karper for the Prosecution.

12 MR. LUKIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Branko Lukic and

13 John Ostojic for the Defence.

14 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Thank you. Judge Schomburg is unfortunately

15 still ill and unable to come to Court. Considering that there are still

16 Defence witnesses in The Hague who are waiting to testify, it is in the

17 interest of justice for Judge Argibay and I to continue sitting under Rule

18 15 bis to hear these remaining witnesses even in the absence of

19 Judge Schomburg.

20 Yesterday, we proceeded on the basis of the consent which the

21 parties had given on 10 March for Judge Argibay and I to continue to

22 sitting under Rule 15 bis in the absence of Judge Schomburg. It would

23 apply until it was withdrawn by one or other party or by Dr. Stakic

24 himself. However, for the record, I would again ask that both parties and

25 Dr. Stakic himself formally register their consent to this procedure for

Page 13424

1 today's hearing, 12th of March, year 2003. Starting with the Prosecution,

2 Mr. Koumjian.

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, the Prosecution consents.


5 MR. LUKIC: The Defence consents, Your Honours.


7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I have no objections, Your

8 Honours.

9 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Thank you. Therefore, considering that

10 Judge Schomburg is still not available to sit in this case today because

11 he continues to be ill, Judge Argibay and I, being satisfied that it is in

12 the interest of justice to do so, and again based on the consent of the

13 parties and Dr. Stakic himself, hereby order pursuant to Rule 15 bis of

14 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence that for today, the hearing continue

15 in the absence of Judge Schomburg.

16 Let us first deal with the Defence witnesses to be called for the

17 next week. Madam Registrar, can we please go into private session.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 13425












12 Page 13425 redacted private session














Page 13426

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]


11 The next matter is the Defence request to admit under Rule 92 bis

12 the statement of Dr. Pavle Nikolic, an expert who testified in the case of

13 Prosecutor versus Simic. Yesterday we heard from the Prosecution that

14 they would be willing to accept the admission into evidence of his

15 statement without cross-examination of Dr. Nikolic provided that the

16 examination and cross-examination of Mr. Pavle Nikolic in the Simic case

17 was also entered into evidence. The Chamber considers that this be a fair

18 solution. Therefore, I would ask that the Defence tender Dr. Pavle

19 Nikolic's report and that the Prosecution tender the testimony of

20 Dr. Nikolic in the Simic case in lieu of cross-examining Dr. Nikolic.

21 Does either party have any objection to following this procedure?

22 MR. LUKIC: The Defence does not have any objections, Your Honour.

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: No, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Thank you. I would, therefore, ask the Defence

25 to tender the report of Dr. Pavle Nikolic which was filed in our case on 6

Page 13427

1 March this year with the registry, page numbers D14917, D15057 into

2 evidence. This report is admitted into evidence as Exhibit D90.

3 Does the Prosecution have copies of the testimony of Dr. Pavle

4 Nikolic from the Simic case available?

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: We will have it at the break, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Okay. Then I understand that after the break,

7 you'll provide these documents, and then we'll admit those documents as

8 evidence on the part of the Prosecution. Okay.

9 The final matter: I would like to address to the issue which

10 relates to the Defence exhibits. The Defence has asked that it be

11 permitted to amend its original exhibit list dated 18th November, year

12 2002, in order to add certain documents to that list. Yes? On 3rd March,

13 year 2003, it filed a motion attaching the documents it wished to add to

14 the original list. The Chamber hereby grants the Defence the right to

15 amend its exhibit list to include those exhibits where English translation

16 have already been provided.

17 The Chamber will rule later in relation to those exhibits where no

18 English translation has been provided. Therefore, all the exhibits

19 attached to the Defence motion of 3rd March, year 2003, may be added to

20 the original Defence exhibit list dated 18th November, year 2002, except

21 for the following exhibits where no English translation has yet been

22 provided: 567, 568, 569, 574, 575, 579, 580, 581, 582, 583, 584, 585.

23 In this regard, the Chamber emphasises that there has as yet been

24 no ruling on the admission of any of these documents into evidence. This

25 concludes the procedural section of this afternoon's hearings. We will

Page 13428












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 13429

1 now continue with the evidence of Mr. Travar.

2 Would the usher please bring the witness in the courtroom.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Good afternoon, Mr. Travar. The Bench would

5 like to remind you that you are still under the solemn declaration to tell

6 the truth in this courtroom. Please, do sit down.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Mr. Koumjian, the floor is yours.

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you.

10 Questioned by Mr. Koumjian: [Continued]


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

14 A. Good afternoon.

15 Q. At the break, we were looking at Exhibit Number S181, English page

16 34, which we found the B/C/S ends in ERN number 741.

17 Sir, is it correct that Section 15, which begins I believe towards

18 the top of that page, very top of the page, indicates "expenditures from

19 the Prijedor budget for the public security section" and lists the amounts

20 for -- first, funds for the operation of administrative organs; under that

21 section, "employees' salaries"; then "funds for special and other

22 purposes"; and under that is "funds for reserve police forces"; and "funds

23 for equipping the public security station."

24 Would it be correct that these -- this document indicates how the

25 municipality funded portions of the public security station budget at that

Page 13430

1 time?

2 A. If I may, let me look at the beginning of this section, if you

3 don't mind, this budget. I'd like to know at which session was it adopted

4 and when was that. May I?

5 Q. Yes, certainly. And we're looking at, for the record, the Exhibit

6 S181, which I believe states on the first page that it is the 31st --

7 dated the 31st of August, 1992, related to the session of the Municipal

8 Assembly of Prijedor of the 27th of August, 1992. Would that be correct,

9 sir, from reading the first page?

10 A. Yes, yes. I saw now that it was the meeting which verified the

11 decisions of the 27th, isn't it, that were taken by the Crisis Staff in

12 the meantime. It is true that this is the budget of the municipality of

13 Prijedor as per groups of revenue for 1992. But I'd like to add that this

14 document and the budget of any municipality, and therefore, of the

15 Municipality of Prijedor, was always adopted in the beginning of the year,

16 and it still is. That is the common practice. As you can see the

17 municipal budget was adopted; however, subsequently, in the latter half of

18 1992, which means that it could not be adopted earlier.

19 What I'm trying to say in my testimony here, I've already said

20 that there were requests from different organisations and institutions,

21 individuals, who were unable to operate normally because of the shortage

22 of funds and the sources from which they usually obtained those funds or

23 other assets. And that in such cases, they turned to the municipal

24 budget. And these resources were then, depending on their availability,

25 of course, were then granted to them.

Page 13431

1 Yesterday, I tried to explain how it came about that a part of the

2 funds which the public security station had spent and then tried to get

3 this money from the -- from its ministry because that was its normal

4 funding channel. However, at that time, because of the number of

5 difficulties with the funding of both the municipal and republican budget,

6 I suppose they were unable to collect the necessary money for all their

7 expenditures, and then they applied either to the Executive Board or the

8 Crisis Staff. And in line with those individual requests and

9 applications, not only of the public security station, but it also held

10 true of the courts, of the public prosecutor's office, that is, those who

11 were not receiving their regular money from the budget and whose funding

12 was under the exclusive jurisdiction of the republican authorities, as

13 they were unable to get this money, either because there was a shortage of

14 those funds or for whatever reason, they then turned to the municipality

15 severally asking that their requests be met.

16 I say this in order to explain why this is here. As you can see,

17 the budget was adopted only at this session, on the 20th of July, and the

18 decision on the budget and the annual statement are normally adopted, that

19 is, the first decision about the budget, and at the end of the year, the

20 performance is assessed. And that is why the department for budget and

21 finances, as there had been certain expenditures which were out of the

22 ordinary, that is, we were paying those institutions which were not

23 otherwise envisaged, and they had to be included in the budget as the

24 budget needs to be adopted by the assembly. And that is why this is here,

25 because the department for the budget and finances in preparation of this

Page 13432

1 draft budget had already included those expenditures which had been made,

2 that is, which had been paid to this institution on the basis of previous

3 decisions of meetings of the Executive Board or the Crisis Staff.

4 Now, if you allow me to continue --

5 Q. Sir, if you could please just answer the questions because I do

6 have a lot of them, and we want to be sure to finish your testimony this

7 week. Give us as succinct an answer as you can that accurately and

8 completely answers the question. But please, if you could avoid

9 volunteering information so we can finish this afternoon.

10 If you go back one page, you looked before at the funding for the

11 public security station, that was Section 15, if you begin on the next

12 page, I believe it is Section 10, and just reading the headings of the

13 sections, would it be correct that in Section 10, it's listed "the

14 expenditures for the municipal misdemeanours court" which you just

15 mentioned in your testimony.

16 Skipping 11 and going to 12, section 12 was "the municipal public

17 attorney." Section 13, "the municipal Territorial Defence staff." And

18 then going to -- skipping to Section 16, that would be the lower court.

19 And Section 17, the office of the public prosecutor. Were all of these

20 sections funded in the way that you just explained in your previous

21 answer?

22 A. On the -- pursuant individual applications of these bodies

23 addressed either to the Executive Board or the Crisis Staff, relevant

24 decisions were taken. And since there were these expenditures -- and that

25 is why in this report that we have here, these expenditures were

Page 13433

1 incorporated. But that is not the -- it was not mandatory under the --

2 such funding from the municipal budget was not mandatory. But these were

3 individual applications, and that is why I'm saying that they had to be

4 incorporated in this report.

5 And if you allow me, to avoid any misunderstanding, and that is I

6 didn't wanted to explain it, by using an example that I remember, I'm

7 merely trying to develop further this document, I remember basic courts

8 which between April were not getting any salaries or any other money or

9 any operating assets. And therefore, it was decided in the Municipal

10 Assembly to try to earmark certain funds from the municipal budget for

11 these purposes. And such decision was taken.

12 So I remember that, even though that was not mandatory; but since

13 regular funds were not flowing in and the judiciary had to be some -- so

14 at the request of the president of the Executive Board and the president

15 of the Court, these funds were approved under the proviso that when normal

16 conditions were established, if possible, then the municipality would seek

17 to be reimbursed from the republican budget. So this is what I remember

18 now and what I'm telling you now, I'm deducing from what I was just

19 reading here.

20 I told you there were individual expenditures, but they were

21 minimal amounts in relation to the budget because the average salaries

22 were 10 or 20 marks for a judge or somebody from these agencies.

23 Q. Thank you, sir. Taking that example you just mentioned, do you

24 know, if the judges who were interned, detained in the Omarska, if you

25 continued to fund their salary?

Page 13434












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 13435

1 A. I do not know that.

2 Q. Sir, you knew Mr. Marjanovic. Would it be correct that you had a

3 professional and a social relationship with him?

4 A. In 1992, I met Mr. Marjanovic, and I cooperated with him more in

5 1993 and 1994, when he was the vice-president of the Executive Board for a

6 while when I was his president. So that is when I came to know him

7 better, but otherwise I did not socialise particularly with him nor are we

8 friends today, I mean outside of work. It was at the time when he worked

9 in the Executive Board that I --

10 Q. Sir, in either a professional or a social conversation, did

11 Mr. Marjanovic ever talk to you about the use of the facilities of the

12 Ljubija mine company at the Omarska mine site as a detention camp?

13 A. I cannot confirm whether it was Ostoja Marjanovic who told me

14 that, but I knew it. I had the information that a prison was housed in

15 those facilities, but I don't remember whether it was Ostoja who told me

16 about that.

17 Q. You don't have any recollection of Mr. Marjanovic complaining

18 about the use of those facilities? Do you or do you not?

19 A. No, he didn't complain. I cannot say that he complained because

20 this is not the kind of conversation I had with Mr. Marjanovic.

21 Q. Sir, going to the Crisis Staff would you say that the primary

22 purpose of the formation of the Crisis Staff was to disarm extremists

23 armed by the SDA? Was that the reason it was formed?

24 A. I cannot confirm that this was the reason why the Crisis Staff was

25 established. I tried to tell you what I know about the way it was

Page 13436

1 established and what its tasks were. But I cannot confirm that it was its

2 sole purpose or its main task.

3 Q. Well, sir, if I could just refer to S83.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: Perhaps to be fair, that should be shown to the

5 witness.

6 And the next document, just for the Usher -- for the Registrar,

7 would be S192.

8 Q. While that's being prepared, Mr. Travar, is it correct that in the

9 Crisis Staff, you didn't normally vote on a decision. The president or a

10 presiding officer who propose it, and there would be a consensus to adopt

11 that decision. Would that be correct?

12 A. I've tried to explain how it was. I believe I tried to do that on

13 the first day or on the second day. We did not have the agenda in

14 advance. And as for decision-taking, sometimes people did vote, but most

15 commonly, the question was: "Is there anything against?" And this was

16 the way decisions were taken in the majority of cases. There was no show

17 of hands or voting on any particular item on the agenda.

18 Q. Who was it that would normally propose the decision?

19 A. The agenda was established at the sessions of the Crisis Staff.

20 The chair would call the meeting to order and would announce the topics

21 that would be discussed. And if any of the members had something to add

22 to that agenda, the agenda would be amended. And that's the way decisions

23 were taken and that's the way the Crisis Staff worked and conducted its

24 sessions.

25 Q. Okay. And just to be clear about your answer, I'm not saying that

Page 13437

1 this is inconsistent, but in the interview in Banja Luka, on page 34, line

2 11, I'm going to read to you the question and answer, and tell me if you

3 believe this accurately describes the procedure.

4 I asked you: "Who would propose the decisions?" And you

5 answered: "This was usually -- they were usually proposed by the

6 presiding person; that is, the president or the person who was presiding

7 at that session." So would that be correct, sir?

8 A. Yes, this is what I have just said. It was the president who

9 proposed and established the agenda.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 Going now to S83, a newspaper article from Kozarski Vjesnik dated

12 the 26th of June, 1992, it includes, if you look for the article called --

13 with the headline "They called it a civil state, but they have pushed us

14 into the middle ages," do you see, sir, that it includes an interview with

15 Dr. Stakic --

16 A. Yes, I can see that.

17 Q. In the first answer he gave to the first question -- the first

18 question was: "Exactly 30 days have passed since the formation of the

19 Crisis Staff in Prijedor. What are its main objectives and what is your

20 assessment of its work so far?"

21 Going to the last sentence of Dr. Stakic's answer, you see that he

22 answered: "The primary purpose of the Crisis Staff was to disarm the

23 extremists who had been armed by the SDA."

24 Would you agree with what Dr. Stakic said in that June interview?

25 A. I don't know what to say. I've told you how I perceived the

Page 13438

1 Crisis Staff and the way Dr. Stakic commented upon the functions of the

2 Crisis Staff is entirely up to him. It was entirely his vision. I didn't

3 read this interview before, so that...

4 Q. Okay, thank you. Sir, you talked in your testimony about

5 Document S192 concerning abandoned property. I believe you discussed that

6 yesterday at page 37 of the transcript. And you said at that time that,

7 in answer to Mr. Lukic's questions, that the purpose of that decision was

8 to protect the property that had been abandoned. I'm paraphrasing your

9 response. Sorry, just to be clear. I'll read the question and answer.

10 On line 17, Mr. Lukic asked: "Does this corroborate your view

11 that this was done to protect this property?" And you answered:

12 "Well, I said yesterday, I don't know if it's necessary for me to repeat

13 it. I think that the purpose that there is that behind all such acts was

14 to protect this property against all further destruction because it was

15 abandoned."

16 Sir, looking at this decision, it does not apply only to property

17 that was abandoned by persons who left Prijedor, but it also applies, does

18 it not, according to Article 1, to persons who participated in the armed

19 uprising. What do you understand by that phrase "persons who participated

20 in the armed uprising"? Does that apply to the events of the 30th of

21 April? Did that apply to people involved subsequent events?

22 A. I don't know how to comment upon this. It does say unambiguously

23 that all the abandoned property of persons who have left the territory and

24 of persons who participated in the armed rebellion. I really don't know

25 what to say. If I can share my views with you, this means that persons

Page 13439

1 who participated in the rebellion or in the attack, and I really don't

2 know what comments I can offer to you.

3 What I said and what I can confirm is -- although this does not

4 belong to my scope of duties, I only know that the purpose of this

5 decision was to protect the abandoned property to a certain extent from

6 everything that was going on at that time and what I was talking about

7 yesterday.

8 Q. Sir, doesn't this decision give a license to the authorities to

9 seize the property, not just of people who had fled Prijedor, but of those

10 who were detained in the Omarska, Keraterm, and Trnopolje camps?

11 A. I don't know what to say. I'm not a lawyer. I cannot comment on

12 this decision. I'm not sure, and I didn't have any information to the

13 effect that property was confiscated from people who lived in it. I

14 really don't know that, and I cannot offer any comment on this decision to

15 that effect.

16 Q. Thank you. I'd now like to distribute another document. It was

17 on the 65 ter list under number 322. Part of that 65 ter has been

18 admitted as S107, but this is a separate document.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: So I think it should be marked probably next in

20 order, Your Honour.

21 Q. Sir, do you recall after the visit of the foreign journalists to

22 Prijedor there being instructions and political instructions from the

23 republic level to report on the camps in the municipality of Prijedor and

24 other areas? Do you recall anything about discussions regarding that?

25 A. No, I don't.

Page 13440












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 13441

1 Q. Sir, the document which has hopefully been handed to you, or will

2 be shortly, you'll see from the title is from the Serbian Republic --

3 perhaps the first page could be put on the ELMO also.

4 Serbian Republic Ministry of the Interior, Security Services

5 Centre, Banja Luka. And it indicates: "Pursuant to the decision of the

6 chief of the Security Services Centre, decision number 11-141/2 of 14

7 August 1992, the commission for the inspection of the municipalities and

8 Prijedor, Bosanski Novi, and Sanski Most public security stations submits

9 a report concerning the situation as found and questions relating to

10 prisoners, collection centres, resettlement, and the role of the SJB in

11 connection with these activities."

12 The first section deals with Prijedor. And going to the second

13 paragraph under "Reception centres in the municipality," if you can -- I

14 hope you can follow me, and I'll read from the middle of that paragraph. I

15 don't want to read everything. It will take too long. "In order to solve

16 the problem that had arisen, the Crisis Staff of the municipality of

17 Prijedor decided to organise" --

18 A. If I may, I can't find this. Is that on page 1 of this document,

19 please?

20 Q. Let me find the B/C/S, and I'll try to help you.

21 A. I've found it. I apologise. It is the last line on that page.

22 Q. Yes, thank you. I'm sorry, the pagination is different between

23 the English and B/C/S. But thank you.

24 It is the second paragraph, so the last line on the B/C/S, it

25 says: "In order to solve the problem that had arisen, the Crisis Staff of

Page 13442

1 the municipality of Prijedor decided to organise reception and

2 accommodation in the settlement of Trnopolje for persons who sought

3 protection, and that prisoners of war should be held for processing in the

4 building of the Keraterm work organisation, Keraterm RO, in Prijedor, or

5 in the administrative building and workshop of the iron ore mine in

6 Omarska."

7 Sir, if you could go down and follow me with me, I'm now going to

8 go one, two, three, four, five -- five paragraphs down, and that paragraph

9 begins - I'll just read the first sentence - "Pursuant to the decision of

10 the Prijedor Municipality Crisis Staff, the army brought prisoners of war

11 to this facility." And you can see from the preceding paragraph, that was

12 referring to Keraterm.

13 Go down two paragraphs further -- excuse me, one paragraph

14 further, in the middle of the paragraph is says: "At the same time, the

15 Crisis Staff of the municipality of Prijedor assessed it would be

16 advisable for security reasons as well to transfer the prisoners to

17 another place, and decided on the facilities of the administrative

18 building and workshops of the Omarska iron ore mine."

19 The next paragraph begins: "On 27 May 1992, pursuant to the

20 decision of the Crisis Staff of the Municipality of Prijedor, all the

21 prisoners from the Keraterm...facility were transferred to the facility in

22 Omarska."

23 Sir, were you present when these decisions referred to by the

24 Crisis Staff of Prijedor were made?

25 A. I've already said that. I said it during my interview in Banja

Page 13443

1 Luka that to my knowledge, no such decisions were taken at the Crisis

2 Staff. And as for this report, if I may share my views with you, this

3 report was drafted by the Ministry of the Interior, the Security Services

4 Centre in Banja Luka set up a commission that was given the task to draft

5 this report. This confirms my belief and my claim that the police used

6 the Crisis Staff in order to blame the Crisis Staff for the things that

7 they didn't do correctly. So this report was drafted by them for their

8 commanding structures.

9 And now I'm even more positive that I was right. When I asked

10 Mr. Kovacevic, like I told you yesterday, to abolish the Crisis Staff

11 because we as a body could not take any decisions. We didn't know

12 anything about these things; we couldn't take any decisions about these

13 things. And this report confirms my views that they made everybody

14 believe that it was the Crisis Staff who made decisions and did things,

15 which was not true. And that is, probably somebody in the police asked

16 for this report to be drafted to the superior structures in the police.

17 Q. So, sir, in your opinion, would it be correct or incorrect to say

18 that the camps were set up following a decision of the civilian

19 authorities?

20 A. This cannot be true because the civilian authorities did not take

21 decisions on the establishment of these camps. But I can guess why you're

22 asking me that. In an interview given by Mr. Stakic, this is what he

23 stated. He stated something along these lines.

24 Q. Sir, did you ever hear Dr. Stakic complain that the police had

25 misused the name of the Crisis Staff? Do you know of any public interview

Page 13444

1 he gave in which -- we could find in which he said that the Crisis Staff

2 had been misused by the police?

3 A. No, I don't have that sort of information.

4 Q. If we could have S180 brought to the witness.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: While that's being done, Your Honour -- could the

6 commission report be marked next in order. Just to correct, I had just

7 stated that the document -- the other part of the document was S107.

8 Ms. Karper has corrected me. It was S152. Perhaps this is a separate

9 document and perhaps should receive a separate number. We would tender

10 it.

11 THE REGISTRAR: The next Exhibit Number is S407A and B.

12 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

13 MR. KOUMJIAN: May I proceed. Thank you.

14 Q. Sir, did the Crisis Staff dismiss directors of private- and

15 socially-owned enterprises?

16 A. No such decision was taken at the sessions of the Crisis Staff

17 that I attended.

18 Q. Sir, referring to the document S -- I'm sorry, and I believe I...

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: Can I have S250. I'm sorry. I apologise. I gave

20 the wrong number.

21 Q. Sir, we talked about the influence of the Crisis Staff on the

22 army, and particularly on the police. And this document, S250, you will

23 see is the document where the Municipal Assembly confirmed the decisions

24 made by the Crisis Staff between 29 May and 24 July. I want to go through

25 some of those decisions with you.

Page 13445

1 Referring to the enactments, if you have it in front of you, of

2 the 31st of May, you will see that the first conclusion was "prohibiting

3 the return of POWs to Trnopolje and Prijedor." Do you recall this

4 decision and can you explain it to us?

5 A. I don't remember this decision. I did not attend the session at

6 which this decision was adopted. I believe that I've already told you

7 that. I told you that during my interview in Banja Luka.

8 Q. Sir, you did tell us I believe yesterday that you were in Belgrade

9 on the 30th of May. When did you return from Belgrade?

10 A. I don't remember whether this was on the 30th of May. This is not

11 what I said.

12 Q. I'm sorry, and I'm confusing also because the 30th of May you said

13 you were home during the attack on Prijedor. Excuse me.

14 The next decision, on the 31st of May --

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. The next decision on the 31st of May, it relates to people fleeing

17 in Trnopolje. Do you know anything -- can you explain to us what this

18 decision concerned?

19 A. Could I have a look at that decision, if that is not a problem?

20 Because -- is this in this document that I have in front of me?

21 Q. No, sir. All we have is what you have in front of you right now

22 regarding that decision. Do you know anything or could you explain to us

23 what this conclusion concerned?

24 A. What I have in front of me is the ratification of decisions

25 adopted by the Crisis Staff on the part of the Municipal Assembly. Is

Page 13446












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 13447

1 that the document that you have in mind, that you're referring to?

2 Q. Yes. And I'm referring specifically to enactments passed on 31

3 May 1992, the second conclusion. It indicates it related to people

4 fleeing in Trnopolje.

5 A. I can't remember this conclusion. I don't know what it contains.

6 I don't know what the discussion was all about. I've already said it, and

7 I abide by what I have said, and that is that at the sessions of the

8 Crisis Staff which I attended, we never adopted any decisions regarding

9 the collection centres or persons detained there or the work of these

10 detention or investigation centres.

11 Q. Did the Crisis Staff or the bodies of which you were a member or

12 attended issue orders to the police that the police then were obligated to

13 enforce?

14 A. I have had an opportunity to see an order which was signed by the

15 Crisis Staff and which was relative to the establishment of the

16 intervention platoon. This is something you showed me in Banja Luka. I

17 believe that the title of that decision was an order of -- on the

18 establishment of the platoon.

19 During my testimony, I've told you what I think about that order.

20 Why this document was called an order, I don't know. I'm not clear

21 whether the Crisis Staff could issue such a legal enactment pursuant to

22 any of the rules regulating the work of administrative bodies. But I'm

23 sure that this could not have been drafted as an order. Why did the

24 person drafting this document call it an order, I don't know. I really

25 don't know because as I've told you, I did not have any feedback on all

Page 13448

1 the decisions taken by the Crisis Staff.

2 The decisions, once they were drafted, were submitted only to

3 those persons who had to be informed about those decisions. But as I've

4 already told you, at the Crisis Staff sessions, we did discuss the

5 possibility of giving the task to the police to prevent all those things

6 that were happening in the territory of Prijedor Municipality during those

7 days. Maybe this was just an attempt to reinforce that attempt, to make

8 it sound stronger. Maybe that's why this document was called an order.

9 But effectively, the Crisis Staff could not issue any orders to either the

10 police or to the army.

11 Q. Okay, sir. I understand that, in the interests of time, I'm going

12 to go through this document and just read the titles of specific orders

13 and conclusions that I believe relate to the army and police. And at the

14 end, you can provide any comment; and at the end, I would ask you to then

15 comment about whether or not this is -- contradicts your statement that

16 the Crisis Staff could give no order or have no influence over the army or

17 police.

18 On the enactments on the 5th of July, if you can follow me by the

19 date, the first order was forbidding unauthorised shooting. The fifth

20 order was on procedures by the military police and on the public security

21 station. The ninth order was on the forming of a logistics unit.

22 On the enactments of the 6th of June, the fifth order -- excuse

23 me, was a conclusion -- Number 5 was a conclusion making Crisis Staff

24 members responsible for providing efficient security for the hospital.

25 The seventh item is a conclusion on the continuation of the blockade

Page 13449

1 measures.

2 Going to the 7th of June, the 13th order -- excuse me, 13th item

3 was a conclusion making the regional command responsible --

4 A. I'm sorry, I'm not getting the interpretation.

5 Q. Perhaps I was speaking too quickly. Let me try again.

6 Going now to the 9th of June, Mr. Travar, if you can find that, in

7 this particular conclusion I'd like to ask you about in a little bit more

8 detail. The 13th item is conclusion number 02-111-166/92-1, "Making the

9 regional command responsible for transferring the Kozaraputevi equipment

10 to the collection centre in Orlovaca."

11 Sir, why would the Crisis Staff make the regional command

12 responsible for transferring equipment from the Kozaraputevi to the

13 collection centre in Orlovaca? Can you explain that?

14 A. I can't, because I have no recollection of this at all.

15 Q. Is it correct that the Kozaraputevi company was a road-making

16 company, and that their equipment would include earth-digging equipment,

17 earth-moving equipment such as bulldozers?

18 A. Kozaraputevi, yes, that's right. This was their field of work.

19 And to this day, Kozaraputevi builds roads, and they have the

20 mechanicisation needed for that type of work

21 Q. It could be used for building roads or for digging in the earth.

22 Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, sure.

24 Q. Going to the 10th of June, the second item is a conclusion

25 assigning the duty of providing security for the Trnopolje camp to the

Page 13450

1 regional command. I'm sorry, I missed the first item. The first item is

2 a conclusion requesting the municipal secretariat to report on the

3 logistics base.

4 Going to the 12th of June, the fifth conclusion is on -- and the

5 date is the 12th of June, the fifth conclusion is on the liberalisation

6 for the procedure of issuing movement permits to citizens.

7 The eighth conclusion was concerning the continued operation of

8 the logistics base in Cirkin Polje and the provision of food for refugees

9 and prisoners.

10 If I stop for a moment on that conclusion, sir, what prisoners do

11 you believe this conclusion refers to?

12 A. I cannot say positively, but I presume the prisoners in those

13 prisons that you spoke about.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 Going to the 16th of June, the first conclusion, assigning members

16 of the Crisis Staff the duty of preparing a system of supplying food to

17 the army and police troops. Going to the --

18 A. Which conclusion, sorry?

19 Q. Sorry, the enactments passed on the 16th of June, first

20 conclusion, assigning members of the Crisis Staff the duty of preparing a

21 system of supplying food to the army and police troops. I believe we

22 discussed this the other day, or a similar enactment.

23 Going now to the 17th of June, the fourth item is entitled an

24 order concerning the obligation to report on the procurement of military

25 equipment.

Page 13451

1 I skipped over the first item because that concerns the

2 intervention platoon that we've discussed at quite some length.

3 The 11th item is a conclusion concerning pay for the reserve

4 police force for the month of April 1992.

5 Going to the 23rd of June, the sixth item on 23 June, is a

6 conclusion directed to the regional command to ensure uniformity of the

7 Serbian army insignia.

8 The 11th conclusion -- the 11th item was a conclusion to reject

9 the request submitted by Muharem Dauti, to return to Stari Grad.

10 On the 22nd of June, the third item is a conclusion on

11 responsibility for collecting refugees from Cela, Donja Puharska, and

12 Trnopolje.

13 Going to the 25th of June, the first item is a conclusion adopting

14 a wartime job plan in organs of the municipality, the judiciary and

15 services, and transferring to the adopted plan.

16 Going to the 2nd of July, the first item is a conclusion

17 coordinating the wartime disposition of the military and police. The

18 second item is a conclusion concerning the obligation to pay military and

19 police members.

20 The fourth item is the conclusion previously mentioned prohibiting

21 the individual releases of persons from Trnopolje, Omarska, and Keraterm.

22 Going to the 24th of July, the seventh item, it's entitled, "A

23 decision rationalising the public security service."

24 Sir, given all of these items referring to army or police or law

25 and order, is it still your position or do you have any comment upon the

Page 13452












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 13453

1 ability of the Crisis Staff to influence the army and police?

2 A. Well, I've told you what my position was. I don't know why. I'd

3 say this is largely due to the ignorance of the competencies of the Crisis

4 Staff by the services which worked for it and the president who -- and the

5 president at the time. I'm quite sure that a large number of these

6 decisions, conclusions, and the rest which have to do with the army and

7 the police could not be taken, and they were not returned as a feedback,

8 nor did we ever discuss the decisions or the previous meetings at a

9 subsequent meeting so that I'm not aware that people talked about these

10 decisions and conclusions, or voted on them.

11 Secondly, the Crisis Staff, since it operated in line with the

12 then-constitution and laws, it could not take decisions which would be

13 legally valid and applicable to the police and the army.

14 Q. Sir, did Dr. Stakic attend meetings of the Executive Board? Was

15 it common that the president would sometimes attend the meetings of the

16 Executive Board?

17 A. I don't remember that he was present there and that did not often

18 happen. He was not present there as often as not. I do not remember if

19 he ever attended those meetings, to be more accurate.

20 Q. Okay.

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, this would be an appropriate time for

22 a break. Yes, it's an appropriate time for a break.

23 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: The trial stays adjourned until 4.15.

24 --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 4.19 p.m.

Page 13454


2 Q. Mr. Travar, sir, I want to turn now to discuss a little bit about

3 Dr. Stakic. Would it be correct to say that after the takeover on the

4 30th of April, Dr. Stakic was formally the first person in the

5 municipality?

6 A. Mr. Stakic was elected the president, but I think there were

7 people who enjoyed more popularity than he did, such Mr. Kovacevic, for

8 instance, who was more liked about the town than Dr. Stakic. But he was

9 the municipal president, and that makes that office significant.

10 Q. Thank you. On page 62 of your interview in Banja Luka, on line

11 28, you said the following, and you tell me if you believe this is

12 consistent with what you just said: "There were more -- other people who

13 were more famous than him. I met him for the first time when -- on the

14 day I was appointed a member of the Executive Board, but he was formally

15 the first person of the municipality. At the time, he was the president."

16 And you were referring to Dr. Stakic.

17 Is that consistent with what you've told us? Do you agree with

18 that, what you said in Banja Luka?

19 A. Well, that's what I've just repeated, except that in Banja Luka,

20 perhaps I gave you a more extensive answer as I had the idea that the

21 first time I saw him at the assembly session, it was the first time I saw

22 him, when I was elected member of the Executive Board.

23 Q. Now, when this government took power after the 30th of April,

24 would it be correct that it was important that the government be viewed as

25 legitimate, at least in the eyes of the Serbian population, and that the

Page 13455

1 selection of Dr. Stakic, who had been elected the vice-president in the

2 1990 elections, was a logical choice in order to give legitimacy to that

3 body?

4 A. Well, I don't know. I believe, yes, there was such a view. When

5 the Serb councilmen left the Municipal Assembly, the Serb Assembly was

6 legalised because the -- in the republican parliament, the Serb MPs had

7 also walked out from it because all those who had been elected were

8 elected to the mixed assembly. And those who walked out, they continued

9 working in the other assembly apart from my office, and I was appointed to

10 it instead of Mr. Dragic, who was on the front and therefore was not

11 there. But at this tier of authority, the legislative power, all

12 councilmen who were Serbs and who had walked out of the mixed assembly

13 became members of that new assembly.

14 Q. You just mentioned Mr. Dragic. Just to be clear, is it correct

15 that when you took over the position of the secretary for the secretariat

16 for economy, Mr. Dragic moved over to being the secretary of the

17 secretariat for communal services?

18 A. He was the manager of the public amenities administration, not the

19 secretary for public amenities for public services. These are two

20 different things.

21 Q. Thank you for that correction. Do you recall Dr. Stakic giving a

22 speech after the takeover?

23 A. I do not remember him speaking.

24 Q. In order to see if I can refresh your recollection, let me turn to

25 page 55 of the interview in Banja Luka. Actually, I'll give you the

Page 13456

1 question on the bottom of page 54. Let's begin with line 31 on page 54.

2 We were talking about Cirkin Polje.

3 "Was Stakic at that house?" You answered: "I think he was." I

4 asked: "Did you hear him give a speech the next morning on the radio?"

5 You answered: "I think that was a declaration, and that Stakic spoke to

6 the people about two or three days later, but I can't really tell you

7 because I didn't even listen that speech. I don't remember. I know that

8 he did speak to people."

9 Does that refresh your recollection or would that be accurate that

10 you think he gave a speech a few days after the takeover?

11 A. I was not listening to that speech, so I cannot say whether there

12 was such a speech or not. But after talking with my colleagues, I had a

13 feeling, that is, I learned that he addressed. But I do not know whether

14 it was two, three, or five days later. I cannot confirm that after all

15 this time. But even then I said that I did not really remember, that I

16 did not remember whether I saw him in Cirkin Polje.

17 I said that I thought that he had been there, but it's difficult

18 to speak about that. After all this time, it is difficult for me to talk

19 about this because I did not know all these people as well personally at

20 that time. Later on in my work, I came to know them better. But I'm

21 afraid to confuse some events which happened later on rather than at the

22 time that we're talking about, and that is why I'm saying that I'm not

23 sure.

24 Q. Okay. Would it be accurate to describe Dr. Stakic as a person who

25 enjoyed public speaking and giving interviews to the media? Did he appear

Page 13457

1 often in the media?

2 A. Well, I do not know how often he appeared in the media, but I

3 think that even that first statement when you asked me about that, I think

4 that I said that then, that because he was very inexperienced. And very

5 often when journalists would insist, he agreed to give interviews at times

6 even about things that he was not familiar enough with in view of his

7 inexperience. I think he often communicated with the media, and I suppose

8 it was the office that at that time he held required. But I didn't have

9 really much opportunity to follow his appearances in the media. But I did

10 come across his interviews in the press.

11 Q. Referring to page 75 of the interview in Banja Luka, beginning on

12 line 24, you stated: "He really like being on TV, on radio, having things

13 to say in the papers. And he liked -- he liked to publicise, to state his

14 views publicly in the media." The question was regarding Dr. Stakic's

15 attitude towards the non-Serb population.

16 Would that be accurate what you said -- what I just read as far as

17 you recall about Dr. Stakic's appearances in the media?

18 A. Well, right. I repeated something along those lines this time,

19 too. Because he was very young at the time, perhaps he appeared in the

20 media more than was necessary, and I suppose whenever journalists asked

21 him to, he would agree to that and give them an interview. But I cannot

22 confirm positively how much and how often. But it was my impression that

23 perhaps he appeared more than necessary or more than he meant at the time,

24 more than he stood for at the time.

25 Q. Would you go to Dr. Stakic's office and meet with him privately

Page 13458












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 13459

1 regarding municipal business, not as part of the Crisis Staff or Executive

2 Board, but just you and him?

3 A. I don't remember. The posts that we held did not turn the two of

4 us to each other. One of us was a member of the executive power, and the

5 other legislative power. But the president did have a possibility to call

6 me and consult me on an issue pertaining to my office. I don't know

7 whether he did, and I don't know how many times he did that. In any case,

8 we never held a private conversation. There were always some other people

9 present, either his secretary or some other people. If he wanted to know

10 something about finances, then yes, I would go there to clarify one thing

11 or another.

12 Q. Okay, just for the record, a testimony -- a witness testified in

13 this case, Ostoja Radakovic, on page 11.090 of the transcript, she was

14 asked: "Would you call, to come to meetings, Ranko Travar for Dr. Stakic?"

15 She said: "Yes, those were not meetings, they were just briefings. He

16 was the head of finance department and was a very important secretariat

17 for everyday life."

18 Would you agree that the secretary for Dr. Stakic, or the

19 receptionist, would call you sometimes to come to his office for briefings

20 of Dr. Stakic?

21 A. I don't remember who invited me, but it was my receptionist who

22 informed me. So it would be Dr. Stakic's receptionist who would call my

23 secretary, and then my secretary would simply tell me that I was wanted by

24 the president. I don't remember his receptionist calling my direct number

25 at any time. I really don't remember.

Page 13460

1 Q. Do you remember -- recall that after the takeover of power, when

2 Dr. Stakic moved from vice-president to president, did he then begin to

3 drive or be driven in a Mercedes automobile?

4 A. I can't remember whether he had a driver or whether he drove

5 himself. But yes, there was a Mercedes, a Mercedes was a car that

6 Dr. Stakic was using. But I don't remember whether he was driven or

7 whether he drove it himself.

8 Q. When he took over that position as president, did his housing

9 change? Did he get an apartment in Prijedor town as a result of having

10 that position?

11 A. I don't know whether he was given an apartment. I know that he

12 resolved his housing problem, but when that happened, I don't remember.

13 Q. When you say "he resolved the problem," we're not -- I'm not quite

14 clear on that. Do you mean he was able to move from Omarska into the town

15 of Prijedor?

16 A. He did get an apartment, but I don't know when. Whether it was

17 immediately following his taking this office or at some later stage. In

18 any case, he did move into the town of Prijedor, and that is what I know.

19 Q. Did you know Simo Drljaca before the meeting of the 16th of April

20 where you were elected to the secretariat?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Is it correct that at that same meeting that you were elected,

23 Mr. Drljaca was elected as the chief of the public security service in

24 Prijedor?

25 A. I cannot confirm that because I don't know whether it was at all

Page 13461

1 possible for Mr. Drljaca to be appointed or -- I believe it was either the

2 minister or the chief of the public services centre who appointed him. I

3 don't know whether it was within the competence of the assembly to appoint

4 anybody to that position. So I really don't remember.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: Perhaps the usher could get S262.

6 Q. Sir, I understand that the law says that the minister of the

7 interior appoints the chief of police. But in fact, at the same meeting

8 where you were elected, on the same ballots was Simo Drljaca for chief of

9 the public security station. Isn't that correct?

10 A. I will look at the document. I said that I don't remember. I

11 know that Mr. Drljaca was there, but maybe you can give me the opportunity

12 to take a look at the copy of the minutes of that session.

13 Q. Certainly, I'll try to find the correct page. I believe in

14 English, it would be ERN number 03024254. And in B/C/S, I believe it's

15 P0038608. P0038608.

16 A. It says here under 5 that the following members have been elected

17 by secret ballot. The members of the Executive Board, I don't know what

18 this "VD" stands for. I believe this is acting officers. And then what

19 follows is a list of people. So that means that he was elected, but

20 whether the assembly had the legal right to do that, I don't think so.

21 What I think is that the assembly just confirmed or established

22 its proposal for its candidate, that it was then to forward towards the

23 competent ministry that would appoint the person. Let me tell you, I'm

24 not familiar with this at all, so I can't say anything positively. I

25 can't confirm anything positively about that. As far as I know, the

Page 13462

1 assembly did not have the possibility to appoint chiefs of public security

2 centres or any other such institutions.

3 Q. Sir, on the same document, it indicates on the same ballot, in

4 addition to Mr. Budimir, number 2; yourself, number 3; on the 11th

5 position, Slobodan Kuruzovic was appointed TO staff commander. Number 13,

6 Mico Kreco, president of the court; and number 15, Milenko Tomic, public

7 prosecutor.

8 Would it be correct for these three positions, similar to what you

9 told us about Mr. Drljaca, that although the legal requirements were these

10 be appointed at a higher level, they were elected and proposed for this

11 decision -- for these positions by the local authorities at that meeting

12 on the 16th of April of the Serbian Assembly?

13 A. I can't give you a precise answer to this question. I adhere to

14 my previous statement. I know that members of the Executive Board were

15 elected, that they were appointed by the assembly, and that this was in

16 keeping with the law. And as for the rest of this document, whether these

17 were just proposals to be forwarded to the competent institutions for the

18 final appointment, I really can't say. I can't give you a precise answer

19 to your question.

20 Q. Did Mr. Drljaca immediately after the takeover assume the position

21 of chief of police? Did Mr. Kuruzovic assume the position of the TO

22 commander? Mr. Kreco president of the Court? And Mr. - I believe his

23 name is - Tomic the position as the public prosecutor?

24 A. I don't know whether they took those offices on the following

25 day. I know that Mr. Kreco was in the court. I believe that he was the

Page 13463

1 president of the court later on. I know that because he came to see me

2 about the issues relative to the payment of the salaries of court

3 officials in May, June, and July. Milenko Tomic, he was a prosecutor for

4 a long time. But whether he took the office immediately after this

5 assembly or whether he waited to be appointed by the competent institution

6 at some later stage, I really don't know. I can't remember, so I can't

7 say anything positive about that.

8 Q. Referring to the summons interview -- the interview in Banja Luka,

9 on page 44, do you recall that Mr. Malik asked you: "Did you ever see any

10 conflicts between Kovacevic, Stakic, and Drljaca, anything they disagreed

11 upon?" And you answered: "Not personally. I was never personally

12 present."

13 Would that be correct, you never personally saw any conflicts

14 between these three individuals?

15 A. I believe there were no conflicts, although Mr. Drljaca was very

16 short-tempered. He was not easy to work with; therefore, it is possible

17 that there may have been some skirmishes. But I wouldn't call those

18 conflicts. In any case, I did not witness any conflicts among them. But

19 I know that every time Mr. Simo Drljaca came to a session, he would

20 address all of us in very harsh words; that is, all of us who wanted to

21 ask him any questions or wanted to learn anything about what was going on

22 around us.

23 Q. And is it correct that Mr. Drljaca came very often to the meetings

24 of the Crisis Staff?

25 A. I don't know how often. He didn't attend all the meetings of the

Page 13464












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 13465

1 Crisis Staff. How often he did, I don't know. I can't even remember how

2 many sessions I attended. But I know that he did not attend some of the

3 sessions that I attended. In any case, I really don't know how often he

4 attended those sessions.

5 Q. On page 42, line 25, you were asked by Mr. Malik in Banja Luka:

6 "How often was Drljaca present at the meetings? We ask that to you

7 again. Could you again explain how frequently he was there." You

8 responded: "He did come. He didn't come to every meeting that I

9 attended. But what I could say is: He did come very often. He came

10 often."

11 Would you stand by that answer?

12 A. I don't know what you have as translation. I've just told you

13 that he did attend the sessions. He didn't attend all the sessions that I

14 attended. So my answer would be that often, he did not attend the same

15 sessions I did. So I can't give you an exact number as to how many

16 sessions he attended, whether he attended them often or not.

17 Q. Mr. Drljaca was a lawyer who worked for the schools and not a

18 professional policeman prior to the takeover. Correct?

19 A. I heard that from my colleagues. I didn't know that, but that's

20 what I heard.

21 Q. When Dr. Stakic was forced out of office in early 1993,

22 Mr. Drljaca was also at the same time forced out of the position of head

23 of the public security station. Correct?

24 A. I don't know that. I'm not sure.

25 Q. Okay. Thank you. I believe I have a document regarding that.

Page 13466

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Could this be distributed, Your Honour. It would

2 be a new document. It has the ERN number in English of 00467081, and

3 7082, two pages. It is the first two pages of the Gazette from 1993 dated

4 the 26th of March 1993. And in B/C/S -- I think we have the wrong B/C/S,

5 at least on the copy that I have. Let me check what the usher has,

6 because this doesn't appear to be the same.

7 I'll have Ms. Karper check on that. Apparently the B/C/S appears

8 to me to be the wrong attachment.

9 I'll skip that, Your Honour. Thank you, we'll get that another

10 day.

11 Your Honour, just moving on.

12 Q. Sir, in 1997, do you recall that Mr. Drljaca was killed in an

13 attempted arrest? And isn't it correct that you at that time were a

14 minister of the government and attended a commemoration, a ceremony,

15 honouring Mr. Drljaca in Banja Luka on the 13th of July 1997?

16 A. I was a minister at that time, and I did attend this commemoration

17 service. That is correct.

18 Q. At that ceremony, there was a very large number of people in

19 attendance. Is that correct? Perhaps 2.000.

20 A. I don't know how many people were at the commemoration, but at the

21 funeral, there were a lot of people.

22 Q. Do you remember that several speeches were made on the 13th at the

23 commemorative session, and that among those who spoke was Dr. Stakic, and

24 Ranko Mijic, who was the then chief of the Prijedor police?

25 A. I believe that Dr. Stakic did speak, but I can't remember about

Page 13467

1 Mr. Mijic giving a speech.

2 Q. Do you recall that Dr. Stakic said words to the effect of

3 "although Simo Drljaca was killed, his great work will live on for the

4 benefit of future generations"?

5 A. I can't remember what was said in the speech.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Finally, if the witness can now be shown I believe

7 it is S114. Let me double check that. S114.

8 Q. Sir, do you recognise this document as a report to the Crisis

9 Staff dated the 1st of July signed by Simo Drljaca regarding the

10 implementation of various decisions, conclusions, and orders of the Crisis

11 Staff by the public security station in Prijedor?

12 A. No, I'm not familiar with this report.

13 Q. Sir, Mr. Baltic indicated that he was requested by the Crisis

14 Staff to obtain this information from Mr. Drljaca. Does that refresh your

15 recollection that the Crisis Staff asked or Dr. Stakic asked for a report

16 on the implementation of the Crisis Staff decisions?

17 A. I don't recall that this was ever requested or that Mr. Baltic

18 prepared a report. I don't remember. I can't confirm that this was ever

19 discussed at the Crisis Staff meetings.

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

21 Further questions by the Court:

22 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Mr. Travar --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for His Honour.

24 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Mr. Travar, I would like to clarify one issue:

25 In this famous Banja Luka interview in March of year 2002, answering the

Page 13468

1 question of Mr. Koumjian which side of the Plavsic/Karadzic split did

2 Stakic take - this is pages 74, 75 - you answered: "I don't really know,

3 but he stayed on Karadzic's side. This is my personal opinion because at

4 that time I didn't see Mr. Stakic very often because I had moved to Banja

5 Luka. But he stayed within the SDS."

6 Do you confirm this statement?

7 A. I stand by this. This is what I said in answer to

8 Mr. Prosecutor's question. I said I was not sure which political option

9 he continued to support, but I thought that he had remained with the SDS.

10 It was at that time that I left the SDS, so I cannot be sure whether he

11 stayed with the SDS to the end.

12 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Within the SDS on Karadzic's side, yes? It's

13 your opinion.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is my opinion. I don't know.

15 Mr. Karadzic withdrew from all offices, including the post of the

16 president of the party. I don't know whether it was, whether it was in

17 1995 or 1996 or 1997. What I remember are the events that took place in

18 1997, when I was a minister of finances, and I remember the conflict that

19 Mrs. Plavsic had with the leadership of the SDS, the government, the

20 presidency.

21 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Thank you for your clarification.

22 Judge Argibay.

23 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Mr. Travar, today you were discussing at page 25

24 of your testimony all the competencies of the Crisis Staff, and looking at

25 a lot of decisions, resolutions, orders, whatever you want to call them,

Page 13469

1 that you say were not discussed at the Crisis Staff meeting. So there

2 must be an abuse of the Crisis Staff name, at least, or authority to pass

3 that.

4 Can you tell me, who was the president of the Municipal Assembly

5 on July the 24th, 1992?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 24 July 1992, it was Mr. Stakic who

7 was the president of the Municipal Assembly.

8 JUDGE ARGIBAY: And Mr. Stakic also -- Dr. Stakic, was the

9 president of the Crisis Staff.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

11 JUDGE ARGIBAY: So how is it possible that the president of the

12 Crisis Staff will submit to the assembly as the president of the Municipal

13 Assembly decisions, orders, resolutions, whatever you want to call them,

14 of the Crisis Staff that were not truly passed by the Crisis Staff, if he

15 was the same person, and he was not telling the Municipal Assembly to deny

16 that orders but asking them to ratify these resolutions of the Crisis

17 Staff? Can you explain me.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my today's testimony, I said that

19 many decisions that were mentioned here did not pertain to the area of the

20 responsibility of the assembly, which means that they did not pertain to

21 the area of responsibility of the Crisis Staff because the Crisis Staff

22 stood instead of the Assembly. Many issues were discussed at the Crisis

23 Staff without the predetermined agenda and without any feedback being

24 provided to all the members of the Crisis Staff. That's why I was not

25 familiar with all the decisions that were taken by the Crisis Staff, but

Page 13470












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 13471

1 there were a number of decisions which were submitted to the assembly for

2 ratification which did not pertain to the area of responsibility of either

3 the assembly or the Crisis Staff because they could not be sent to the

4 bodies that they were sent to.

5 I've tried to explain that by saying that people working in the

6 legal affairs of the Municipal Assembly were just not doing their job

7 properly, and they did not articulate well those things that were under

8 the authority of the assembly. And they would draft decisions,

9 conclusions, and orders, and then they would give those to the president

10 to sign. And when there were a number of such documents or decisions or

11 amendments, they would collectively be submitted to the assembly for

12 ratification by that same president.

13 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Are you telling me that the assembly just ratified

14 all the documents, decisions, orders, that they were presented with

15 without the president of the assembly telling them about what you called

16 this afternoon an abuse of the authority of the Crisis Staff? Is that

17 what you're meaning?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, as far as I can remember, there

19 were -- there was no reasoning at that assembly. The decisions were read

20 and adopted as such so that the individual decisions were not discussed.

21 They were simply listed. So there were no warnings about somebody's lack

22 of jurisdiction of either the assembly or the Crisis Staff over the

23 decisions that were taken and related to those which ought not to have

24 been taken.

25 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Thank you. I have no further questions.

Page 13472

1 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Is the Defence willing to ask additional

2 questions --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Judge, please.

4 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Is the Defence willing to ask additional

5 questions related to the matters raised by the Judges?

6 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. We have a few questions emanating

7 from the questions of Your Honours and the Prosecution.

8 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Yes, the floor is yours.

9 Further questions by Mr. Lukic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Travar, good afternoon once again.

11 A. Good afternoon.

12 Q. I apologise for keeping you here, but we need to clarify certain

13 things which arise from the questions by Their Honours and our learned

14 friends.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness first be shown

16 Document S406.

17 Q. Yesterday, the Prosecutor showed you this document, and at that

18 time, I tried to object. But it is a fact that for these supplementary

19 questions, it is the time and the place to clear up certain moot points,

20 so that I will ask you now whether this document was signed by

21 Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin? Can you see that in this document?

22 A. No, I cannot.

23 Q. Is it also true that this document you did not sign either, even

24 though you're indicated here as one of the signatories?

25 A. I said that I did not remember this document, and my signature is

Page 13473

1 missing here so I don't know. But I did not sign, not this copy. And I

2 do not remember having ever seen it.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 The next document that I'd like to ask you about is a document

5 which the Prosecution has not tendered so far, and I do not know if it was

6 given a number today, and that is the report of the commission of the

7 public security centre in Banja Luka. Public security centre in Banja

8 Luka, that was the commission which was headed by Mr. Vojin Bera.

9 MR. LUKIC: I think that it is S407. Sorry.

10 Q. [Interpretation] The Prosecutor has explained that this was in

11 point of fact the second part of the document with the number S107. And

12 this document is S407. I won't go into the analysis of these two

13 documents with you now, but they are almost verbatim identical even though

14 one of them was allegedly written by Simo Drljaca, and the other one by

15 the Security Services Centre, rather the commission that was set up.

16 Today, we heard that Simo Drljaca was a lawyer by education. As

17 you go through this document, did you ever see the commission which used

18 Simo Drljaca's report ever use any number or the decision or the alleged

19 decision of the Crisis Staff?

20 A. I had no opportunity to read this document in toto. But these

21 parts that were pointed out by the Prosecutor, it did not say that. That

22 is, on the third page and second it says: "On the basis of the Crisis

23 Staff decision," and there is no number there attached to it. But I want

24 to say that during this testimony here, he also showed me a document on

25 the basis of which Mr. Drljaca was ordering something, and that document

Page 13474

1 was also lacking a number. So that I don't know.

2 From this report, from those parts which were read out to me,

3 there were no decisions that Mr. Drljaca had been referring to, or this

4 commission. I don't know which of the two reports you have in mind.

5 Q. Do you know that the police -- that after the visit to the

6 investigation centres of the foreign journalists, a broad campaign of

7 concealment was started with regard to all the things that the police had

8 been doing in those investigation centres?

9 A. I said I knew nothing about the visit of those international

10 journalists or the visit of any foreign team in this area, least of all do

11 I know whether somebody tried to conceal anything. I don't know. I'm not

12 aware of that.

13 Q. And do you know whether this commission headed by Vojin Bera ever

14 turned to the Crisis Staff when it wrote this report?

15 A. No, I know Mr. Bera. He did not turn to us, nor did he come to

16 the Crisis Staff.

17 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Bera, in his report, on page 5 of the

18 B/C/S version said the following: "Over 3.334 persons brought into

19 custody to the investigation centre in Omarska, between the 27th of May

20 and the 16th of August, 1992, Muslims accounted for 1.820-something;

21 Croats, 125; 11 Serbs; the rest, 1 -- and others, 1. During their stay in

22 the investigation centre, two persons of Muslim ethnicity died of natural

23 causes, and 49 persons left the investigation centre in an unknown

24 manner."

25 Have you ever heard the police claim that in the Omarska

Page 13475

1 investigation centre, two persons died altogether, and even they of

2 natural causes?

3 A. No, I have not heard this. I'm not aware of this. And I am not

4 familiar with this whole report.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We won't be needing this document any

6 more, but I'd like the witness to be shown the Document S265.

7 Q. [Interpretation] We're not interested in the contents of this

8 document. All I'm going to ask you is whether at the bottom of this

9 document it says that it was signed by Mr. Drljaca?

10 A. It does say that.

11 Q. Does this document have a reference to a number and a date to

12 which this reply relates?

13 A. You mean the upper left corner?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. Yes, there is.

16 Q. So Mr. Drljaca was not unaware of the obligation to refer to a

17 number and the date of a document to which he's referring? Can we

18 conclude that from this document?

19 A. I'm sorry, I didn't really understand your question. I tried to

20 read what it said here.

21 Q. I will repeat my question. Since you know that Mr. Drljaca has a

22 degree in law, can one deduce from this document that as somebody with a

23 law degree, he was aware that when he was referring to a document by

24 another agency, that it was necessary to indicate the number and the date

25 of the document to which he would be referring to?

Page 13476












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 13477

1 A. Yes, I can see that.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We won't need this document any

4 longer. [In English] I would like the usher now to show the witness the

5 Document Number S63 [Realtime transcript read in error "S163"], please.

6 Sorry, S63. Because in the transcript, I can see S163. Probably my

7 English.

8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Travar, the Prosecutor asked you something

9 about this document, and I will merely in pursuant of further

10 clarification ask you whether this document has a seal.

11 A. No, it doesn't.

12 Q. Is this document signed?

13 A. No, it isn't.

14 Q. Does this document have a number in the upper left corner?

15 A. No, it doesn't.

16 Q. Does this document have a date?

17 A. It doesn't.

18 Q. Do we know what is this document?

19 A. It says it's the request of the Autotransport for the

20 reimbursement of costs, but what you have just listed is missing.

21 Q. Is that common in our practice, to use such documents?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. LUKIC: I would like now the usher to show the witness the

25 Exhibit Number S181, please.

Page 13478

1 Q. [Interpretation] First, can you turn to page 106, and the only

2 difference I see is in the numbers that stand immediately next to the

3 text. So above number 8, the title is "means for other social needs or

4 requirements."

5 A. Just a moment, please.

6 Q. Can you please read what the payments were made for on the numbers

7 between 8 and 15 on the following page, and can you do it slowly, please.

8 A. "Payments for local communes, 2.091.847. Payments for social,

9 political, and other organisations, a total 1.504.923, out of which the

10 Executive Board of the Serbian Democratic party, 34.875." I apologise.

11 "The municipal board of the Party of Democratic Action," that is. "The

12 municipal board of the SDS, 1.221.835. Socialist democratic party,

13 91.926. The municipal board of the reformist forces, 101.918. The

14 municipal board of the democratic alliance party, 34.747. The municipal

15 board of the HDZ, 2.321."

16 Q. And number 15 on the following page?

17 A. I can't read it in my copy. I don't have it in my copy. It's

18 missing. There's no number 15 in my copy.

19 Q. That's page 107, under number 15.

20 A. "The private initiative party, 17.301."

21 Q. Thank you.

22 And now can you please look at page 109. On that page, number 45,

23 payments for service industries, and under 57, underneath that, it says

24 "57, participation in the financing of the institute for the protection of

25 male children and youth, 400.000 dinars," or I don't know what currency

Page 13479

1 was then valid.

2 A. Dinars were used at that time.

3 Q. Is that the institute for retarded children in Cirkin Polje?

4 A. Yes, this is the institute for mentally retarded children and

5 adolescents, and I believe that this was its name. It was one of the

6 major problems we faced at the time.

7 Q. In that institute, were there beneficiaries of all ethnic groups

8 in more or less equal numbers?

9 A. I know that there were beneficiaries of all ethnic groups, but I

10 don't know what their ratio was, how many of each of the ethnic groups

11 were there.

12 Q. Was this institute also financed from the budget of the republic

13 during, so to say, normal times, but then when problems arose, it had to

14 be financed from the budget of the municipality?

15 A. I can't say that for a fact. All I know is that it became the

16 concern of the municipality of Prijedor. Actually, there were some

17 attempts to raise money from other republics or other parts for their

18 respective beneficiaries. I remember that clearly because the director of

19 that institute would pay me a visit very often to talk to me because he

20 did not receive the money on a regular basis. So this institute was not a

21 municipal institution, an institute under municipal care. It had

22 beneficiaries from the territory of the entire Yugoslavia, of the entire

23 former Yugoslavia. There were people from all over the place in that

24 institution.

25 Q. So this institute or this institution also received extraordinary

Page 13480

1 payments from the municipal budget because of the circumstances that

2 prevailed in the municipality at the time?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We will no longer need this document.

6 You can take it away. Thank you very much.

7 Q. [Interpretation] Collection centre Orlovaca is mentioned on page

8 2, line 19 of today's transcript. Is that a collection centre for the

9 equipment? Was there a collection centre for equipment of some sort?

10 A. In Orlovci at the checkpoint established by the police, there was

11 a collection centre where people who had plundered other people's property

12 were -- that property was taken away from them, and it was collected in

13 Orlovci at the police checkpoint.

14 Q. So it is not a collection centre for people?

15 A. No, no, we're talking about agricultural machinery that were taken

16 away from those who had plundered their owners.

17 MR. LUKIC: I would like now the usher to show the witness the

18 Exhibit Number S262, please.

19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Travar --

20 MR. LUKIC: Just a moment, Your Honours.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. The document that you have been shown starts in a different place,

24 not in the place that the Prosecutor showed you. So can you please read

25 on the top of that page.

Page 13481

1 A. It says here: "The Serbian remocratic party," but I believe that

2 it is the Serbian democratic party, "the municipal board Prijedor,

3 regarding the opinion on the appointment of officials requested at a

4 session held on 8th of September, 1992, the election and appointments

5 commission of the Prijedor SO consider the conclusion of the Prijedor

6 municipality Executive Board prompting the consideration of the mandate of

7 Executive Board members and other officials appointed to their posts for

8 six months."

9 Q. Can you please read who the signatory of this document is. Who

10 signed it?

11 A. It says it is the chairman of that commission, Dragan Savanovic,

12 but there's no signature.

13 Q. Was Mr. Dragan Savanovic the president of the group of SDS

14 deputies?

15 A. In the mixed assembly, I believe that he was. I believe that I

16 heard that on the media. Or I listened to the broadcast of one of the

17 sessions of that mixed assembly on the radio, and I believe that he was

18 the president of the group of SDS representatives.

19 Q. You've been shown -- just a moment.

20 The page at the top of which it says "The Serbian democratic party

21 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, OOS Prijedor." I believe we're talking about

22 page 6.

23 A. You mean I have been shown that document by the Prosecutor? I

24 believe that this was the page. It says "The Serbian Republic of Bosnia

25 and Herzegovina, the Serbian Assembly of Prijedor Municipality." Yes,

Page 13482












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 13483

1 there was this one as well.

2 Q. On the following page, the one following the one that you have

3 just seen, it says on the top "The Serbian democratic party of Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina, OSDS Prijedor"?

5 A. "The Serbian democratic party of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the

6 Executive Board, Prijedor." On page P00367, that's what it says. I'm

7 reading the markings.

8 Q. Can you now find page P0038605.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And again, does it say the same?

11 A. Yes, "SDS Prijedor."

12 Q. However, underneath, there is a line saying "minutes of the first

13 session of the Serbian Assembly of Prijedor Municipality." Are these the

14 minutes of this session or is that something that was drafted in the

15 Prijedor SDS?

16 A. It says here "the Serbian Democratic Party." I don't know where

17 this document was drafted.

18 Q. Was Srdjo Srdic a member of the Serbian Assembly of Prijedor

19 Municipality?

20 A. He was one of the assemblymen, one of the deputies. I don't know

21 whether he was a member because a deputy could not be an assemblyman at

22 the same time. I believe that to be the case, but I'm not familiar with

23 these things.

24 Q. You were talking about Document 0038607. Can you please open that

25 page now. Again, the title "The Serbian Democratic Party of Bosnia and

Page 13484

1 Herzegovina, the municipal board of the SDS in Prijedor." And it says:

2 "Minutes of the fifth session of the Serbian Assembly of Prijedor

3 Municipality," an abbreviated version.

4 On the following page, page 2 of this document, at the top, we can

5 see that it says "Srdjo Srdic insists that before the appointment of the

6 members of the Executive Board, blank resignations should be signed and

7 this proposal was rejected."

8 Due to this role of Mr. Srdjo Srdic, is it more plausible that

9 this was an SDS meeting rather than a meeting of the assembly, if you

10 know?

11 A. I don't know. I'm now confused. I have been confused about

12 everything that I've seen.

13 Q. Let me ask you one more thing: Was this document signed by the

14 president of the assembly?

15 A. No. There's no signature.

16 Q. Were the minutes signed by the person who took the minutes?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Can you tell who was it who took the minutes, just by looking at

19 the document?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Mr. Travar, thank you. I have no further questions to ask you.

22 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Mr. Koumjian.

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: If I could ask just a few brief questions before

24 the break.

25 Further questions by Mr. Koumjian:

Page 13485

1 Q. Sir, is the reason that you're confused about whether this was an

2 assembly or SDS meeting because the Serb assembly was basically run by the

3 SDS? It was the SDS that created the Serb assembly in Prijedor?

4 A. That's why I said I was not clear why it says in the heading the

5 Serbian democratic party. I know it was the Serbian Assembly who

6 appointed all of us as members of the Executive Board.

7 Q. Going to the issue of the collection centre at Orlovci, isn't it

8 correct that the Kozaraputevi company was an operating company? It was

9 operating throughout 1992? It was an ongoing enterprise? Correct?

10 A. Yes, it was operating. It existed.

11 Q. Sir, then why would the equipment from an operating company be

12 taken to a collection centre for stolen goods? Why wouldn't it have been

13 returned to that company if that was the purpose?

14 A. I don't know. I didn't say that this equipment belonged to

15 Kozaraputevi, the equipment that was collected in that collection centre.

16 The equipment that was collected there was taken away from those people

17 who had looted the abandoned property in Kozarac, and that was the --

18 those were the goods that were collected at that police checkpoint.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: If the witness could be shown S250 again, and also

20 the document that Mr. -- I believe it was 406, the document that Mr. Lukic

21 showed the witness at the beginning of his testimony, redirect. S250,

22 406.

23 Q. Sir, you were asked about S406 by Mr. Lukic a few moments ago,

24 which was the document that he pointed out did not have a signature of

25 Mr. Brdjanin or of yourself. It does have a number in the upper left,

Page 13486

1 02-111-179/92. If you look at the S250, the minutes of the assembly

2 confirming the decisions of the Crisis Staff for the enactments passed on

3 the 11th of June, 1992, do you see that the very first conclusion under

4 that date is conclusion number 02-111-179/92 "requesting obligatory

5 distribution of the conclusion of the Autonomous Region of Krajina in

6 Banja Luka on personnel policy with respect to executive posts, to all

7 socially-owned companies, public companies, and government institutions

8 for the purposes of implementation."

9 So this decision referred to in the document certified by you is

10 again referred to and confirmed by the Municipal Assembly. Correct?

11 A. This is what it says here. But I abide by my previous testimony.

12 I didn't see this document before, although it does say here that the

13 authenticity of this document certified by myself and it does say that it

14 was adopted under item 9 on the 11th of June, 1992, under this number,

15 although this number is not clear. It has been corrected. But

16 02-111-179, yes, it does say so here.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you. No further questions, Your Honour.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for His Honour, please.

19 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: So we conclude the testimony of the witness

20 before us. Mr. Travar, the Chamber would like to thank you for coming to

21 the International Tribunal to give your evidence in this case. And we

22 wish you a safe and good trip home.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. If I may take this

24 opportunity to thank you for a very correct and professional attitude

25 towards me, and I would like to ask the Defence team and the Prosecution

Page 13487

1 team, I'm very glad if my testimony has helped you to shed some light on

2 the events that took place in Prijedor Municipality in 1992. Thank you

3 very much.

4 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: You're excused.

5 Please, usher, would like to...

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Before the break, I would like to clarify some

8 issues related to the documents tendered by the OTP. First of all, the

9 document, this report concerning the situation relating to the prisoners,

10 collection centres marked by the registry as S407, but I have an

11 impression that we already admitted this document in the evidence as S152.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, that was a different document. That

13 was Mr. Drljaca's report to the commission, and this is the commission's

14 report. Much of the contents is the same, but it is a separate document.

15 S152, I believe, and we checked on this earlier, was only Mr. Drljaca's

16 report to that commission, and not the commission report.

17 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: The document which is before the Bench is the

18 same. They are identical.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: The commission report should include the

20 information about other municipalities, and the signature page should be

21 different.

22 Your Honour, they do appear to me to be different, although they

23 contain much of the same contents.

24 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Well, okay. If you are insisting and believing

25 that the documents are different, then I would like to ask the Defence

Page 13488












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 13489

1 whether you object or agree with the admission of this document as...

2 MR. LUKIC: We don't have objections, Your Honour. My microphone

3 is not working, so that's why I'm using my colleague's.

4 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Thank you very much. So this document is

5 admitted as S407A/B.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you. And, Your Honour, we did obtain for the

7 Court and Registry colour copies of S406, which had the very faint stamp.


9 And the OTP presented, as far as I understand, the document, a

10 copy of Official Gazette, of 26th of March, 1993. Is the OTP intending to

11 tender this document?

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Not at this time. I think we may have a -- I'm not

13 sure if we have the correct B/C/S attached to that. So we'll try to --

14 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: So it's clear.

15 And one more issue: The Prosecution promised us to provide the

16 copies of testimony of Dr. Pavle Nikolic from the Simic case.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, we distributed that -- we distributed that --

18 we gave to that the Registrar and the Court officer at the break. They

19 now have it. And the Defence.

20 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Okay. And what number would it be?

21 THE REGISTRAR: This would be marked S408A, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: No objections from the parties?

23 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: So it is admitted into evidence as S408.

25 And now if it is an appropriate time to have a break, the Court

Page 13490

1 stays adjourned until 6.00 sharp.

2 --- Recess taken at 5.48 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 6.03 p.m.

4 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: So now we can start with Witness 046. This

5 witness is our next witness. And Mr. Lukic, is it -- Witness 043 is a

6 Defence witness. Does this witness require any protective measures?

7 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. You can clarify it with him, but

8 this witness asked us for closed session and a pseudonym because his

9 family lives in another country. He'll explain. So if we go to closed

10 session before he enters, and you can ask him to clarify it.

11 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Does the Prosecution have any objections to

12 implementing these protective measures?

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Therefore, the Chamber grants Witness 043

15 pseudonym and closed session. Madam Registrar, what is the next

16 pseudonym, please?

17 THE REGISTRAR: DH, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Could you please confirm that we are now in the

19 closed session.

20 [Closed session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 13491












12 Pages 13491 to 13509 redacted closed session














Page 13510

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

17 at 7.05 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

18 the 13th day of March, 2003,

19 at 2.15 p.m.