Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2099

 1                           Thursday, 27 August 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The accused Stanisic not present]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.26 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.  Madam Registrar, would

 7     you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case IT-03-69-T, the

10     Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             We'll start, I would say as usual, to establish the situation as

13     far as Mr. Stanisic is concerned.  Mr. Stanisic is not in court.  We

14     received a form under the heading "Jovica Stanisic non-attendance in

15     court," dated the 27th of August, that is today, in which we find that

16     Mr. Stanisic is not willing to waive his right to attend court in person,

17     that he was informed that he may participate in the proceedings via

18     video-conference link, and has expressed as his wish that he does not

19     want to use that facility.  I refer to the form itself.

20             Then we further have a form, "Absence from court due to illness,"

21     dated 27th of August, 2009, signed by Mr. Stanisic, in which he confirms

22     that he's unable to attend court proceedings and that he has discussed

23     the matter with counsel.  And a third box has not been ticked, and that

24     is a declaration of waiver, which I would say it's logical that he has

25     not ticked that box.

Page 2100

 1             Then we have a form in which the principal officer states that he

 2     had received at 9.55, and the 27th of August, the form from the detainee.

 3     It also contains the UNDU medical service statements by the reporting

 4     medical officer, Mr. Eekhof, in which he has ticked answers to the first,

 5     the second, and the fourth and the fifth question.

 6             And finally, we received a brief report concerning the health

 7     condition of Mr. Stanisic, Jovica, dated 27th of August, signed by

 8     Mr. Eekhof, reporting medical officer.

 9             It appears that from the report that the situation has not

10     changed since yesterday, and the Chamber was informed that the parties

11     would no questions for Dr. Eekhof.  Then ...

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber decides to proceed in the absence of

14     Mr. Stanisic.

15             I'd like to briefly raise a matter which is -- yes,

16     Mr. Simatovic.  Is there anything you'd like to say?

17             THE ACCUSED SIMATOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like the -- I

18     would like the Trial Chamber to allow me to address the Trial Chamber.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you may do so, but after I have said a few

20     words in relation to the matters that had been the subject of the

21     hearing, the ex parte hearing, yesterday.

22             The Chamber was informed that a new proposal has been made by

23     OLAD.  The Chamber does not further comment on that.  I think the views

24     of the Chamber have been expressed sufficiently yesterday, but I would

25     like to add one or two points to that.

Page 2101

 1             If a compromise could be reached as proposed by OLAD, the Chamber

 2     has in mind that it will consider to further facilitate such a solution

 3     by reducing the number of hearings even a bit further than the two days a

 4     week which we have on a regular basis now.

 5             The second matter the Chamber will consider is that if such a

 6     solution would be adopted, that it will encourage further discussions

 7     between the parties so as to identify those portions of the evidence for

 8     which there would be less difficulties to cross-examine or to test that

 9     evidence, and then to invite the Prosecution to focus primarily on those

10     portions of the evidence rather than to present evidence for which it

11     takes more time to prepare for cross-examination or for otherwise testing

12     that evidence.  This is what the Chamber would like to add as a

13     supplementary effort to favour a quick adoption of a solution of the

14     present situation.

15             And finally, and I'm now addressing the Prosecution, the Chamber

16     is seriously considering already for that reason, in order also to be

17     able to focus entirely on the solution of the problem of your

18     representation, Mr. Simatovic, to cancel the next week's hearings.  I'm

19     dealing with this in the beginning of this session, because the Chamber

20     was informed that the next witness is about to start travelling.

21     Therefore, I'm not seeking any comments at this moment.  Of course you

22     may address the Chamber, Mr. Simatovic, in a second, and you're now aware

23     of what the Chamber offers as its assistance, but before we do so,

24     Mr. Groome, I take it that if we would not hear any evidence next week

25     that you'd have to take immediate action.

Page 2102

 1             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  I'm informed that 3.30 today is

 2     the latest that we can inform Victims and Witnesses Unit to cancel travel

 3     plans.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Any comments on not sitting next week?

 5     Because we have an urgent problem and that has to be resolved and that

 6     takes some time.

 7             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, not having been a party to the hearings

 8     yesterday, we trust that the Chamber in its discretion and its judgement

 9     will take the best course of action.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  It may not come as a surprise that this Chamber does

11     not easily give up court time.

12             Mr. Knoops, any comments on non-sitting days for next week?

13             MR. KNOOPS:  No, thank you, Your Honour.  We leave it certainly

14     in the hands of the Chamber.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you.

16             Mr. Simatovic, we'll first hear from you, and then the Chamber

17     will decide on whether or not at least next week's sessions will be

18     cancelled.  This is not any indication on how we will proceed, although

19     it may be clear to you that the Chamber will seriously consider that if

20     an adoption -- if a solution will be adopted, that to facilitate that by

21     reducing, at least temporarily, the hearings in this case.

22             Mr. Simatovic, you asked permission to address the Chamber.  You

23     may proceed.  It's uncomfortable for you to stand, and it's a difficult

24     problem with the microphone, so please remain seated so that you can

25     concentrate on what you want to say.

Page 2103

 1             THE ACCUSED SIMATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 2     I have prepared a written submission that I can submit to you, in

 3     English.  I've tried to summarise and give a very long and hard thought

 4     to the situation that I am facing at the moment.

 5             First of all, the fact is that my lead counsel, Zoran Jovanovic,

 6     died on the 2nd of August, and that since then I've not had a lead

 7     counsel.  Mr. Domazet is not my lead counsel.  He is co-counsel, and I've

 8     never had any communication with him with regard to my defence strategy.

 9             Mr. Domazet, after the death of my lead counsel, did not arrive

10     in Belgrade.  Did he not provide me with any legal advice.  Although he

11     knew that we were not prepared for trial, he informed the OTP that he was

12     prepared to cross-examine the witnesses without informing me first.

13             Effectively, I was -- felt deceived, in addition to the fact that

14     the late lead counsel asked for Mr. Domazet to be replaced by a younger

15     and more active gentleman, Mr. Petrovic.  The Registry also deceived me,

16     because I listened to them when I stayed in Belgrade.  They asked me to

17     urgently decide who my lead counsel would be.  I gave them my decision as

18     soon as I decided, and they were very satisfied with my choice, and they

19     told me that the fact that he was partially tied with the appeals

20     proceedings would not be a problem.

21             Yesterday, the same service stated that the counsel that I chose

22     was not acceptable.  I really would like to have counsel appointed.

23     Second of all, I would like to be given an objectively long enough time

24     to prepare my defence.  It is impossible for me to continue this trial,

25     because I did not work with Mr. Domazet with regard to the

Page 2104

 1     cross-examination of the witnesses.  Just like me, he doesn't have any

 2     access to the paperwork that the late Zoran Jovanovic, my lead counsel,

 3     and I prepared for my defence, and in that sense I would like the

 4     proceedings to be delayed until I have a full access to my defence.

 5             If the proceedings are not delayed and if I can't -- cannot be

 6     given the time to prepare, then I will be forced to represent myself.

 7     The Trial Chamber can ask for the security services of Serbia who have

 8     been listening in to my telephone conversations to provide them with the

 9     recording of my conversations with my late counsel which can confirm

10     everything that I've said so far.

11             Your Honours, this is my submission, which I also have in

12     English, as I've already told you, and I can submit it in writing.  This

13     submission can be provided to you immediately.  Thank you very much.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Simatovic, of course everything has been

15     translated to us into English and we have it on the record, so therefore

16     there's no need at the same time -- I would not prevent you from having

17     it filed, but then you have to seek the assistance of Mr. Domazet on how

18     to do that because that has to be processed through the Registry.

19             As far as the solution you hinted at of self-representation, I

20     would strongly advise you to thoroughly, perhaps with the assistance of

21     Mr. Domazet or the assistance of candidates for becoming counsel, lead

22     counsel, co-counsel, to carefully study the case law of this Tribunal and

23     the case law on which the Tribunal's jurisprudence relies in this

24     respect.  I'm not taking that any further.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 2105

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Simatovic, has OLAD you -- informed you about

 2     the new proposal?  I'm not going to deal with it, because I don't think

 3     that's appropriate, but OLAD has formulated a new proposal, and I just

 4     added what the Chamber could do in order to facilitate that it works out

 5     well.  Are you at least willing to look at it and to consider it?

 6             THE ACCUSED SIMATOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I think the wisest thing to do is that we'll

 8     continue today with today's witness.  We cancel, to start with, next

 9     week's hearings.  So there'll be no hearings next week, Mr. Simatovic,

10     which gives you additional opportunity to further discuss and further

11     discuss with everyone involved the proposal that has been -- is on the

12     mind of OLAD, and then the Chamber will take care that it will be

13     informed about any development in that respect.

14             Mr. Groome, 3.30.  It's before 3.30.

15             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you very much for that, and

16     I will convey that to the people who will make the necessary

17     cancellations.  I just want to reiterate also the Prosecution's offer to

18     rescheduling witnesses.  I have not been made any specific request from

19     either Mr. Simatovic or Mr. Domazet, but if that somehow assists in this

20     problem the Prosecution stands ready to do that as well.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I can imagine that, for example, focusing on

22     crime base witnesses as they're often called and then perhaps even

23     certain areas would make it easy for new counsel to prepare for what seem

24     to be the bigger issues in this case.

25             MR. GROOME:  That's precisely the thing I'm thinking of,

Page 2106

 1     Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's on the record.

 3             Yes, Mr. Knoops.

 4             MR. KNOOPS:  Your Honour, on this point I rise on my feet to

 5     propose to the Court the following:  If the Court will proceed today with

 6     Witness B-215, there would be two problems.  First of all, the hearing of

 7     this witness would not be terminated this week.  That's maybe the least

 8     problem for -- for the Court to deal with, but it's not to be expected

 9     that this witness can be finalised today.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  How much time would you need for cross?

11             MR. KNOOPS:  I would need three hours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Three hours.

13             MR. KNOOPS:  And I learned from the Prosecution that they

14     probably need two hours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, is that -- we usually have four and a

16     half effective hours a day.  That's -- we lost -- well, we lost, we used

17     half an hour.  Is there anyway to finish the witness, to shorten the time

18     for chief?

19                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

20             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, Mr. Hoffmann informs me that it largely

21     depends upon whether there was some proofing notes that were taken that

22     contain considerable amount of additional evidence, that if there is

23     agreement that they be admitted under 92 ter and cross-examined by

24     Mr. Knoops, that that would considerably shorten the time.  But if that's

25     not agreed and we have to lead that evidence live, that it may be

Page 2107

 1     impractical to think that we'd be able to finish the witness in the time

 2     remaining today.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you make the application, the 92 ter, we'll

 4     hear from Mr. Knoops, but if he wants to express himself already that if

 5     the proper attestations are made in relation to these proofing notes,

 6     whether he would oppose admission into evidence of the proofing notes as

 7     a written statement under Rule 92 ter.

 8             MR. KNOOPS:  Well, Your Honour, this is exactly the second

 9     problem.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             MR. KNOOPS:  The Defence was served the 25th of August the

12     proofing notes comprising seven pages which contain totally new statement

13     of the witness.  In the proofing notes it says that the following

14     substantive information was provided by B-215, which was not recorded in

15     previous accounts.

16             The Defence has carefully studied the proofing notes of 25th

17     August, and we detected on 20 essential points that this statement or the

18     proofing notes amount to a totally new statement acts -- Article --

19     Rule 66 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.  If the Court wishes, we

20     have prepared a comparison which clearly shows that only on the 25th of

21     August the Defence was served with a totally new statement which could

22     not in all reasonableness be investigated by the Defence.  And not only

23     with respect to the person of Mr. Stanisic but also with respect to the

24     person of Mr. Simatovic.  Witness B-215 provides on the 25th of August

25     totally new evidence on the two accused persons which was never disclosed

Page 2108

 1     before by the Prosecution or by the witness.  The proofing notes

 2     acknowledge, indeed, that this was not recorded in previous accounts.

 3     Not only the Defence of Mr. Stanisic will be seriously hampered if the

 4     Court would continue, even in chief, with this witness today without

 5     giving the Defence a fair opportunity to investigate these 20 new points,

 6     but I think in light of the submissions of Mr. Simatovic today, it cannot

 7     be the case that this witness can provide evidence in chief on totally

 8     new aspects which were never disclosed before while Mr. Simatovic is not

 9     represented, according to his choice, but apart from that --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Knoops, would you -- whether Mr. Simatovic is

11     represented by counsel of choice or not, Mr. Simatovic is represented at

12     this moment.  So there's no need to comment on his situation.

13     Mr. Simatovic has addressed us on this matter, and therefore we'd like to

14     hear about Mr. Stanisic's position but not to include other accused.

15             MR. KNOOPS:  Therefore, we submit that the evidence in chief of

16     this witness is adjourned till the Defence is given a proper opportunity

17     to investigate the new proofing notes which are intended to enter into

18     chief or at least will be addressed during the examination-in-chief.  And

19     again, we have the documents which clearly shows on what essential points

20     this witness comes with a totally new statement, which qualifies as a

21     statement under Rule 66 which was never disclosed before.

22             These are not just proofing notes.  This is a clearly new

23     statement.  Not only on the DB as an organisation but also on the two

24     accused in specific.  The Witness B-215 mentions a specific certain new

25     meetings, alleged meetings with the two accused persons which were never

Page 2109

 1     disclosed.  The Defence did not have a fair opportunity to investigate

 2     these elements of this new statement.  Therefore, we strongly object that

 3     the Court continues with the examination-in-chief of Witness 215 until

 4     Defence is given a proper and fair opportunity to investigate this new

 5     statement.

 6             So the first argument with respect to the hours allotted to the

 7     Prosecution, Defence, therefore I said it may be minor to the second

 8     point, and my answer is directly, Your Honours, that the Defence will not

 9     agree with admission under Rule 92 ter of these new proofing notes simply

10     because as said these are not simply proofing notes.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

12             MR. GROOME:  I'm going to ask Mr. Hoffmann to deal with the

13     particulars as he has worked with this witness.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hoffmann.

15             MR. HOFFMANN:  Your Honour, very briefly, we do acknowledge that

16     there is essential new evidence in these notes, that -- we do agree that

17     it more or less a new statement which is signed by the witness.  We did

18     not have an earlier opportunity, unfortunately, to ask the witness those

19     questions prior to him coming to testify here.  However, I think given

20     the fact that the witness is already here, ready to testify, it would

21     certainly be an option to lead the evidence in chief, give the -- at

22     least the Stanisic Defence an opportunity to cross-examine the witness

23     today, and if there is any request to recall him anyway for the Simatovic

24     Defence, I think we would have no objection at the time then if the

25     Stanisic Defence would request additional time for additional

Page 2110

 1     cross-examination when and if the witness would have to be recalled.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You make more or less the additional opportunity for

 3     Mr. Stanisic to cross-examine the witness dependent on whether we would

 4     recall the witness for Mr. Simatovic, but the primary argument is this is

 5     a new statement.  We have not have had sufficient time to prepare for

 6     cross-examination, so therefore to make that dependent on the situation

 7     of Mr. Simatovic seems to be a bit odd.

 8             MR. HOFFMANN:  You're absolutely right.  That was not my

 9     intention to make it dependent on that.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Although you said if there's any request to

11     recall him anyway for the Simatovic Defence, I think we would have no

12     objection at the time if the Stanisic Defence ... so that is what I

13     responded to.  But that is misunderstood.  You'd say recalling him for

14     further cross-examination would not meet any objection from the

15     Prosecution side.

16             Mr. Knoops, in what way -- let's just for argument's sake assume

17     that we'd hear the evidence in chief and perhaps some cross-examination,

18     but let's wait with that for the time being.  In what way would you be

19     prejudiced or would Mr. Stanisic Defence be prejudiced if we would hear

20     that evidence in chief and would give you an opportunity to perhaps at a

21     later stage cross-examine the witness?  I mean, even if you were to fully

22     investigate it, the new statement, would that change anything in the

23     presentation of the evidence in chief?

24             MR. KNOOPS:  It would, Your Honour.  It would be an essential

25     difference with the -- with having had the opportunity to thoroughly

Page 2111

 1     investigate, because it would change the case strategy of the Defence,

 2     first of all.  The Prosecution admits that this is a new statement.  It

 3     requires a new Defence strategy.  It requires a new approach during the

 4     examination-in-chief in terms of objecting or not objecting.  The

 5     exhibits, there's a huge bunch of exhibits to be tendered through this

 6     witness.  It would require simply a new strategy for the chief, apart

 7     from the cross-examination, and I think with due respect the crux is not

 8     the physical presence of the accused -- sorry, of the witness today, it's

 9     simply also for the examination-in-chief having had the proper

10     preparation, opportunity, in terms of objecting, not objecting, case

11     strategy and the admission of exhibits.

12             It may be so that during our investigation we find certain

13     exhibits or other information which could lead us to the conclusion that

14     certain exhibits which the Prosecution intends to tender are not

15     objectionable, or for purposes of case strategy, should not be objected

16     to, and we simply don't have this information available yet.  So

17     therefore, apart from the fact that I think splitting the

18     examination-in-chief from the cross-examination is also not viable for

19     Defence purposes because the witness will be seizure in those two

20     sequences of the procedure, apart from that issue, I think we would

21     seriously be hampered if the Court would continue with the

22     examination-in-chief of B-215 for the reasons I just outlined.  Thank

23     you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hoffmann.  Brief, please.

25             MR. HOFFMANN:  Of course.  Just a brief response on the issue

Page 2112

 1     of -- just on the issue of the exhibits.  The exhibits have been notified

 2     to both Defence teams on the 29th of July.  It's true that the witness

 3     now made comments on those exhibits, but what exhibits were to be used is

 4     known since the end of July.  And again on the witness scheduling, with

 5     all sympathy to the Defence, it might have been -- it would have been

 6     appreciated, I think, by the Prosecution if we would have heard earlier,

 7     even informally, by the Defence that there might be an issue about these

 8     proofing notes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, although I do understand that they were

10     provided on the 25th of August, which is the day before yesterday.  Well,

11     much time wasn't there, was there?

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will withdraw, and it hopes that it will

14     be able to make up our mind in five minutes, but everyone is expected to

15     remain standby.

16                           --- Break taken at 2.56 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 3.05 p.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber has considered the submissions.  The

19     Chamber has decided that it will hear the evidence of this witness in

20     chief.  We have the old statement, and we have the proofing notes.  The

21     Chamber leaves it in the hands of the Prosecution how to present the

22     evidence as it can be found in the proofing notes.

23             There's a fair chance that the Chamber would not immediately

24     today decide, even if there would be the appropriate attestations, to

25     immediately decide on admission, so we leave it in your hands,

Page 2113

 1     Mr. Hoffmann, whether or not you want to take the risk just seeking the

 2     attestation or whether you want to elicit the evidence viva voce, which

 3     of course will take more time.

 4             Then as far as the Defence is concerned, the Chamber is not

 5     convinced by the arguments raised by the Defence that hearing the

 6     evidence in chief would be prejudicial as explained by you, Mr. Knoops.

 7     The Chamber accepts that if on the basis of further investigations in

 8     relation to this new evidence that you'd like to reconsider your position

 9     as far as exhibits are concerned, exhibits which are not directly

10     relation -- at least exhibits that were already on the list, that the

11     Chamber will then consider arguments you may raise at that time, and of

12     course one of the things you could do at this moment is just to object to

13     all of it and say that you give the reasons, put this on the record that

14     you object.  The Chamber will then most likely mark the exhibits for

15     identification and decide perhaps after you have had an opportunity to

16     further explore the matter.

17             Therefore, the Chamber will proceed, but already grants

18     additional time to prepare for cross-examination.  If there would be any

19     area which you could deal with already today which is not influenced by

20     the new proofing notes, you're invited to do so and you're even

21     encouraged to do so, but the Chamber accepts that you need more time for

22     cross-examination, especially in view of the -- of the evidence contained

23     at this moment in the proofing notes.

24             This would also mean that assuming that you want to cross-examine

25     the witness also on the new evidence, to say so, that if the witness

Page 2114

 1     would have to be recalled for that, that that would, under the then

 2     circumstances, also provide an opportunity for Mr. Simatovic to

 3     cross-examine the witness, or at least Mr. Simatovic's Defence in

 4     whatever composition at the time will when the witness reappears for

 5     cross-examination or further cross-examination.

 6             Any questions about this ruling?  If that's clear, we turn into

 7     closed session.

 8                           [Closed session]

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Page 2115











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17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

20             Yes.  If the Prosecution would be so kind to assist in already

21     raising the curtains.  While I appreciate that the ...

22                           [Trial Chamber and usher confer]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Never interfere in matters in which you do not fully

24     understand.  We have to wait until the closed-session transcript is off

25     the screen entirely before the curtains will be raised.  It's always good

Page 2125

 1     to see with what detail these kind of measures are surrounded.

 2             Mr. Hoffmann, are you ready to examine the witness?

 3             MR. HOFFMANN:  Yes, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you're still bound by the solemn

 5     declaration you gave in closed session, that is that you will speak the

 6     truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.

 8             MR. HOFFMANN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9                           Examination by Mr. Hoffman:

10        Q.   Witness, do you recall giving a statement to investigators from

11     this Tribunal?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. HOFFMANN:  I would ask that document 65 ter 5126, that is ERN

14     0308-4101, 0308 -- to 4140 be placed in front of the witness on the

15     monitor.  It is a witness statement dated 10 and 12 March, and 10, 11,

16     and 29 April 2003.

17             Witness, on the screen in front of you is a document purporting

18     to be a statement given by you in March and April 2003.  Do you recall

19     giving a statement at this point in time?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And if you would please look at the signature on the bottom of

22     page 1 and tell the Court if you recognise it.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Is that indeed your signature?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 2126

 1        Q.   And if we could please go to page 36 in the B/C/S version.  And

 2     again I would ask you to look at the signature on the bottom of that page

 3     and whether you recognise that as your own.

 4        A.   Yes, this is my signature.

 5        Q.   And did you have a chance to review the statement before coming

 6     to court today?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And is this indeed your own statement that you gave to the

 9     investigator at the time?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. HOFFMANN:  Could I then ask that document 65 ter 5127 be put

12     on the monitor.  It's ERN 0649-7936 to 0649-7938.  It is a supplemental

13     information sheet submitted in the Perisic case and signed by the witness

14     on 11 May, 2009.

15        Q.   Witness, did you have a chance prior to testifying in the Perisic

16     case to review your statement and make additional comments?

17        A.   Yes, I did have an opportunity to review the statement while I

18     was here in The Hague, between the 10th and the 14th of May, and I also

19     added some comments to my original statement.

20        Q.   And if we could please look at the signature on the bottom of

21     page 3 of that document.  And again I would ask you if you do recognise

22     this signature as your own.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And this document is indeed an accurate summary of your

25     additional comments that you made at the time?

Page 2127

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Did you have an additional opportunity prior to testifying today

 3     to review the translation of these two documents in your own language?

 4        A.   When I provided the statement on the 11th of May, 2009, before I

 5     signed the statement I was provided with a copy of the statement, and I

 6     still have it at home.  I still have that copy, the copy that I signed on

 7     the 11th of May.  And on this occasion when I arrived at The Hague, I

 8     again saw the same statement.

 9        Q.   And when you arrived this time in The Hague did you have a chance

10     to put down in writing any more additions or corrections to these two

11     documents?

12        A.   Well, given the things that I could remember, I did add some

13     things -- or, rather, I provided some further clarification to some of

14     the passages in my original statement.

15             MR. HOFFMANN:  Can I ask that please 65 ter 5128 be put on the

16     monitor.  It's ERN 0671-6334 to 0671-6340.

17        Q.   If you look at the document in front of you, and if we then can

18     go to page 6, would you recognise your signature on this document?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And is it correct that you signed this document after the content

21     of it was read out to you in the Serbian language?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Do you want to make any additional corrections or clarifications

24     to your statements at this point in time in addition to what you've seen

25     on the screen?

Page 2128

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   And subject to the corrections in the documents before you, did

 3     your statements that you signed in 2003 and in May 2009 accurately -- in

 4     May and in August 2009 accurately reflect what you said to the Office of

 5     the Prosecutor?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And if you were asked the same questions today in court that you

 8     were asked in 2003 and in May and August 2009, would you give the same

 9     answers?

10        A.   Yes, I would provide the same answers, but the time that has

11     lapsed is a bit longer now, so I will probably be able to remember less

12     detail, but I would provide the same answers basically.

13             MR. HOFFMANN:  Your Honours, at this point in time the

14     Prosecution would ask that the prior statements of this witness from 2003

15     and the signed notes from May 2009 would be admitted into evidence, that

16     is 65 ter 5126 and 65 ter 5127, while I would ask that the proofing notes

17     made in this case, given the comments by the Court earlier on, would be

18     simply marked for identification while I would lead the evidence in

19     chief.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, would you please assign numbers,

21     firstly 2003 statement.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P51, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objection against this statement to be admitted

24     into evidence?  2003.

25             MR. HOFFMANN:  No objection.

Page 2129

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Domazet.

 2             Then P51 is admitted into evidence.

 3             Madam Registrar, the May 2009 statement or supplemental

 4     statement.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Will become Exhibit P52, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objection, Mr. Knoops?

 7             MR. KNOOPS:  No, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Domazet.

 9             P52 is admitted into evidence since -- and then the last one, the

10     August 2009 statement -- or perhaps I should say the information sheet,

11     the supplemental information sheet, often referred to as proofing notes,

12     that would receive number?

13             THE REGISTRAR:  P53, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.  If at any later

15     stage you would tender them, we'll then hear about objections and decide

16     on the matter.

17             Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.

18             MR. HOFFMANN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

19        Q.   Witness, in your 2003 statement, at paragraph 16 following, you

20     describe the arming of Croatian Serbs in the so called SAO SBWS, and more

21     specifically in paragraph 20 you describe in detail how arms and

22     ammunition were transported across the Serbian-Croatian border.  In that

23     context you do mention several operatives of the Serbian state security,

24     the Serbian DB being involved in this.  How did you know that these

25     people were operatives of the Serbian state security?

Page 2130

 1             MR. KNOOPS:  Your Honour, I object to the questioning.  It's --

 2     it may be so that the statement of the witness is admitted, but cannot be

 3     so that the questions in chief are purely leading.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  They're not leading to the extent that Mr. Hoffmann

 5     is just asking for the basis of the knowledge of the statement as is

 6     admitted into evidence.  At least, Mr. Hoffmann, that's how I understood

 7     your question, but the witness has said that to DB operatives, then he

 8     can be asked about what is the basis for his knowledge that the person he

 9     describes were DB operatives.  That is not leading.  It's just a

10     follow-up on what is already in evidence as his statement.

11             Could you please answer the question, that is, how did you know

12     that the persons you described as DB operatives were staff of the DB or

13     operatives of the DB?  What's the basis of that knowledge?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The source of my knowledge was the

15     fact that at the time, owing to a friend of mine who was one of the

16     senior staff of the MUP of Serbia, I was transferred to the reserve staff

17     of the MUP of Serbia, to the police brigade from the reserve staff of the

18     JNA where I had been serving since then.  As a professional driver, I was

19     given a task in my unit, i.e., I was assigned to the auto unit as a

20     driver.  On one occasion I was given a task, and I -- and I described

21     that task in my statement.  I learnt from a conversation with the people

22     and the behaviour of the people who wore civilian clothes that they were

23     actually members of the state security, of the DB.

24             MR. HOFFMANN:

25        Q.   Just to clarify, so you did talk in person to these DB

Page 2131

 1     operatives?

 2        A.   When that column was being formed they provided security for the

 3     column, and they had the main say as to what would happen to the column,

 4     and they provided the complete security for the column and making sure

 5     that the column reached its final destination.

 6        Q.   Did you talk to these people about their background or their

 7     affiliation to the DB?

 8        A.   No, I did not communicate with them directly, but one of my

 9     colleagues who was an active police officer in the police brigade told me

10     that our security was provided by men from the state security.

11        Q.   If you refer to the state security, to which state security do

12     you refer?

13        A.   Well, I'm referring to the DB, as it was known then.  I was a

14     member of the reserve forces of the public security.

15        Q.   And just for the record, of which country is that state security

16     service?

17        A.   At that time it was the MUP of the Republic of Serbia.

18        Q.   Further on in your 2003 statement you do mention

19     Radovan Stojicic, aka Badza, several times being the chief of the

20     Territorial Defence in Eastern Slavonia at the time.

21             MR. HOFFMANN:  I would ask that 65 ter Exhibit 107 be put on the

22     screen.  It's ERN 0064-1702.  It is a certificate of the supreme

23     territorial defence headquarter of the SAO SBWS, dated 13 December 1991.

24        Q.   Witness, did you have a chance to look at this document before

25     coming to court?

Page 2132

 1        A.   I did see such documents, because the Territorial Defence Staff

 2     of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem issued such documents when men

 3     were being sent on furlough, on weekends when they travelled on business

 4     from Western Slavonia, Baranja, and Srem to the territory of Serbia.

 5             Such certificates were issued to people who travelled on business

 6     to allow them to keep their personal weapons when they crossed the bridge

 7     near Doboj.

 8        Q.   Can you, just for the record, tell the Court, if you look at this

 9     document, who signed this document?

10        A.   Well, I can't tell you whether this was signed by

11     Radovan Stojicic, Badza, or his deputy, but I would say that it was

12     somebody else who signed on behalf of Radovan Stojicic.  This is not his

13     signature, I think.

14        Q.   Are you familiar with the person mentioned in this document, that

15     is Slobodan Miljkovic?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Given what you've said before would you say that this document is

18     consistent with your own personal knowledge of similar documents that you

19     saw at the time and the position of Radovan Stojicic, aka Badza?

20        A.   Yes.  The document is credible.  I was provided with a similar

21     document when I travelled to Serbia on business, and the document

22     featured the time of travel, the time of return and the weapons that I

23     carried.  Whether it was a pistol or a long-barrel arm, whatever it was,

24     the document had to show the registration number of the piece.

25             MR. HOFFMANN:  Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders Exhibit 65

Page 2133

 1     ter 107 into evidence.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections?

 3             MR. KNOOPS:  At this point we have objections, but we suggest to

 4     mark it for identification after cross-examination make a decision on the

 5     admission into evidence.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Domazet.

 7             MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] The same objection, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, would you please assign a number so

 9     that the document be marked for identification.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P54, Your Honours, marked for

11     identification.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13             Mr. Hoffmann, I see that there's a stamp with "Exhibit," and then

14     date admitted.  Well, that's still open.  OTP reference.  Is that -- has

15     it been used on other cases, or will we always have documents illustrated

16     by these kind of stamps?

17             MR. HOFFMANN:  No.  It is indeed been admitted in the Milosevic

18     case, and this is obviously an earlier copy without the actual exhibit

19     number, which was Exhibit 466, tab 12, in the Milosevic case.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Wouldn't it be good that documents are not

21     bearing the traces of being used in other cases and just have the

22     document before us?

23             MR. HOFFMANN:  Certainly, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  If you have another copy to be uploaded that would

25     be find.  We're not making any drama out of it because it is now on the

Page 2134

 1     record that the stamp is not part of the original document.  We also have

 2     no -- there were some other markings on it as well, but that seems to be

 3     not of direct relevance at this moment, but please provide copies without

 4     ICTY traces from other cases on it next time.  Please proceed.

 5             MR. HOFFMANN:  We will do so, Your Honours.

 6        Q.   Witness, in your 2003 statement, at paragraph 41, you do mention

 7     a certain JNA General, Andrija Bijorcevic.  Can you tell the Court who he

 8     was in 1991?

 9        A.   In my statement I mentioned Mr. Andrija Bijorcevic,

10     general major.  In 1991 he was the deputy commander of the Novi Sad Corps

11     of the Yugoslav People's Army.  As the deputy commander of the Novi Sad

12     Corps until the death of General Major Bratic when he succeeded him as a

13     commander of the Novi Sad Corps.

14        Q.   Have you met General Bijorcevic in 1991 or 1992 personally at any

15     time?

16        A.   I met Mr. Bijorcevic on several occasions in 1991.  I spent a lot

17     of time at the observation post at Brsadin Silo as I drove my commander

18     there.  I was even present when Major General Bratic got killed during

19     the Assembly of the pontoon bridge leading towards Borovo Naselje from

20     the Brsadin Silo.

21             MR. HOFFMANN:  Your Honours, at this point in time we would play

22     a short clip of Prosecution Exhibit 65 ter 2666.  The video ERN is

23     V000-1412.  The clip we play is running from minute 51:57 to 54 minutes

24     of the original tape.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Any text on it?

Page 2135

 1             MR. HOFFMANN:  Yes.  As usual we have provided the booth with the

 2     relevant transcripts.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That's good.  Already any observation to be made

 4     prior to playing this clip, Mr. Knoops, Mr. Domazet?

 5             MR. KNOOPS:  Well, Your Honours, when the Defence was seeing the

 6     clip we were not hearing the translation of all the participants in the

 7     particular conversation on the clip, so I'm not sure whether that is

 8     already being remedied by the Prosecution.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hoffmann.

10             MR. HOFFMANN:  I'm not quite sure I understand the Defence on

11     that point.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand Mr. Knoops to say that apparently

13     people are speaking on this clip at portions of speech not being

14     transcribed and/or translated.  Is that the case, Mr. Knoops?

15             MR. KNOOPS:  When we looked at the clip, Your Honours, there is

16     only one person who is translating, and it's not for the whole meeting.

17     So we're not sure whether the Prosecution is intending to let small

18     portions of the clip here to the Court, but maybe you can first look at

19     the clip and then decide.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's -- let's -- it's only this portion that

21     you tender into evidence, Mr. Hoffmann?

22             MR. HOFFMANN:  With this witness, yes, and we have indicated

23     prior to the Defence what portion we play.  It's only one person

24     speaking, that is General Bijorcevic.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and if it ever comes to other portions which

Page 2136

 1     you would tender, you would at that time provide us with transcripts and

 2     translations.

 3             MR. HOFFMANN:  Right.  And if I may, just in addition, I actually

 4     had contacted the Defence before about these exhibits and I was told that

 5     for this particular video there was actually no objection so ...

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  But has the matter been resolved, Mr. Knoops, as

 7     explained by Mr. Hoffmann?

 8             MR. KNOOPS:  Yes.  We just wait for the clip.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             Mr. Domazet, you have no comments.  Then let's look at the clip.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] GB:  This is what they said.

13     Vance Plan states if people express their will to live independently, if

14     people decide to live in the Croatian state, if they declare themselves

15     independent, they should be independent.  If they declare they want to

16     live together with other Serbian states, that is again their right.  In

17     the event that someone attacks that people, we are obliged to protect

18     them.  That is what the Vance Plan says.  And there's no one, no

19     leadership in Serbia, and this what's its name, this small Yugoslavia,

20     for anybody to remain at the head of the state without protecting its

21     people.  I have to tell you I was at a meeting, and Cosic ... and there

22     was talk, it is not a secret, people were very hesitant.  And he said:

23     There's no need for us to cross the border.  I said:  Mr. President,

24     regardless of the superior command, leadership and yourself, if someone

25     attacks the people, I will raise the army without your knowledge.  When I

Page 2137

 1     overtook the duty of the commander of this corps, things were really

 2     looking sad.  Vukovar and that, it was not planned to fall ever.  And we

 3     did that on our own initiative, but they would not destroy that to such

 4     an extent if they meant to surrender themselves.  First of all they

 5     didn't want to surrender, and second of all, they didn't want people to

 6     charge.  You know, you can open fire from all your equipment if -- all

 7     you want if you don't have a man who will adopt -- adopt a stand.  That

 8     is the greatest merit of Arkan's volunteers, although some people are

 9     saying I'm plotting with paramilitary formations, these are not

10     paramilitary formations.  Those are people who came of their own free

11     will to fight for the Serbian people, and we would surround the village,

12     he would storm and kill those who would not surrender, and on we went."

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I see the very last picture again.  The very

14     end.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Hoffmann, according to your presentation,

17     it should be two minutes and three seconds, where it is two minutes and

18     six seconds.  So could you please -- you played more than you said you

19     would play.  I don't think it's of great importance here, but I'm

20     insisting very much on great precision in whatever is presented to the

21     Chamber.  Please proceed.

22             MR. HOFFMANN:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I will look into that.

23        Q.   Witness, is this General Bijorcevic that you've seen at this

24     footage the one that you mentioned in your statement and that you had met

25     in person?

Page 2138

 1        A.   Yes.  That was General Andrija Bijorcevic.  In 1991 he was

 2     major-general?  And in 1992 -- or, rather, I can't tell you when exactly

 3     he was promoted into the rank of colonel-general, and at the time he was

 4     discharging the duty as the commander of the Novi Sad Corps.

 5        Q.   Did you see that footage before or even at the time when it was

 6     broadcast?

 7        A.   Well, I did see this footage here.  I can't remember whether I

 8     saw it on TV ever, but as far as I learned from all the events, I believe

 9     that this happened in 1992 in a place called Beli Manastir, in Baranja.

10        Q.   Would you say that the general's statement is consistent with

11     your own personal knowledge of the events in the SAO SBWS, and especially

12     the relationship between the JNA and Arkan's unit, the SDG?

13        A.   What he said, what Andrija Bijorcevic said here is consistent

14     with everything, because I was in the territory, and I saw cooperation

15     between the JNA and Arkan's units -- or, rather, the Serbian Volunteers

16     Guard, and I could observe the coordination between the two during combat

17     activities.

18             MR. HOFFMANN:  Your Honours, Prosecution tenders this clip of 65

19     ter 2666 into evidence.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

21             Madam Registrar.

22             MR. KNOOPS:  We would like to prefer to have it marked identical

23     to the previous exhibit and withhold our final comments, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I assume that you have good reasons to do

25     that, Mr. Knoops.  Therefore, we'll allow that.  At the same time, it's

Page 2139

 1     important that keep the list of exhibits as -- which have not been

 2     decided upon yet as short as possible, but in view of the circumstances I

 3     accept -- yes, Mr. --

 4             MR. HOFFMANN:  Just one minor point, but as -- as suggested by

 5     the Court earlier on, we do our -- in correspondence prior to the

 6     testimony on these exhibits, and there had been indeed an e-mail from

 7     Mr. Jordash indicating that there were no objections so I'm a bit

 8     surprised that --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Was that an e-mail which was sent before the

10     supplemental information sheet, the proofing notes, were sent to the

11     Defence?

12             MR. HOFFMANN:  That's correct.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So therefore I think Mr. Knoops explained that

14     the reason why he wanted to reserve his -- more or less for reconsidering

15     whether the no objections position would be still valid after he has

16     further explored the additional information.  Therefore, in view of the

17     timing of the e-mail of Mr. Jordash, this is not a reason not to grant

18     the request from Mr. Knoops.

19             Madam Registrar, that would be number?

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P55, marked for identification,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And it will keep that status for the time being.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. HOFFMANN:

25        Q.   Witness, in your 2003 statement, in paragraph 52 you state that

Page 2140

 1     the main problem in the SBWS region were the paramilitary units which

 2     were formed in the Republic of Serbia, and you do list a couple of those

 3     paramilitary units, among them Arkan's men, the Serbian Volunteer Guard,

 4     the SDG.

 5             MR. KNOOPS:  Your Honour, at this point I -- I have an objection,

 6     because the statement Mr. Hoffmann is referring to is contained in a

 7     paragraph of the statement of the witness concerning Vukovar, and as

 8     Your Honours may know, Vukovar is not part of the indictment of both

 9     accused, so therefore I don't believe that the questioning by the

10     Prosecution should include the portions of the statement of the witness

11     which refer to Vukovar and the Vukovar events.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hoffmann.

13             MR. HOFFMANN:  I'm happy to clarify with the witness this point

14     of his statement.  I don't think that this portion of his statement

15     relates only to the Vukovar events.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you introduce the matter not in direct relation

17     with Vukovar.  Then please proceed so it's not primarily in view of

18     paragraph 52 which seems to be under the heading of "Vukovar."

19             MR. HOFFMANN:

20        Q.   Witness, you have stated in your statement that the main problem

21     had been those paramilitary units.  When you made that statement, did you

22     especially refer to problems with those paramilitary units only in the

23     Vukovar area or in the wider area of the SBWS?

24        A.   In my statement, I said that in the area of Slavonia, Baranja,

25     and Western Srem, the problem was with all the paramilitary units that

Page 2141

 1     were in the territory, starting with the Croatian or the so-called

 2     Home Guard and the Serb Volunteers Guard, the Territorial Defence, and

 3     all others who were active in that territory.  The Yugoslav People's Army

 4     could not implement its task the way it was supposed to and the way it

 5     should have.

 6             MR. HOFFMANN:  And just for the record, Your Honours, actually in

 7     paragraph 49 of his statement he does refer to a number of villages as

 8     it's stated in the statement as in the Vukovar area, but actually that

 9     refers to places in the SBWS.

10        Q.   Witness, what do you mean when saying in your statement these

11     units were formed in Serbia?

12        A.   I mean that in the territory where I was and throughout which I

13     drove the commander and participated in combat, including the village of

14     Vera, Pacatin, Brsadin, the farm at Principovac, and the Brsadin Silo and

15     on towards Vukovar, those units were formed not only in Serbia but over

16     80 or 90 percent of their personnel arrived from Serbia.  In the TO units

17     in western Srem and Slavonia, there were also people from that territory

18     who originally hailed from there, mostly Serbs and -- but a few Croats.

19     I knew a few of them who were members of the TO but were Croatian.

20        Q.   Speaking specifically about the SDG, Arkan's unit, do you know

21     who established the SDG?

22        A.   By virtue of the fact that this Serb Volunteers Guard was not

23     independent of the JNA command, as the first point; and as the second

24     point, they could easily be distinguished from the Yugoslav People's Army

25     because of their uniform; and the third point is that their weapons were

Page 2142

 1     much more modern than the weapons owned by the JNA, and they had more

 2     modern protective gear for individual infantrymen, et cetera.  They also

 3     had the Heckler and Koch automatic rifle, which was not the case with the

 4     JNA.  They had very up-to-date bullet-proof vests, suits, et cetera.  At

 5     that time, the JNA were still in old uniforms, and it was only in early

 6     October that they were being issued with new camouflage uniforms and

 7     other equipment.  Ninety percent of the personnel had no protective gear

 8     and no bullet-proof vests.

 9        Q.   Thank you for that information, but, Witness, I would appreciate

10     if you could concentrate on the question.  The question was whether you

11     had any knowledge about who established the SDG.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you answer that question.  Mr. Knoops.

13             MR. KNOOPS:  Your Honour, my objection is that the witness is,

14     first of all, volunteering himself to provide information about

15     apparently statistics he has in mind.  He mentioned several times 80, 90

16     percent, 90 percent no protectives, et cetera.  Secondly, the witness is

17     not here as an expert, so therefore before a witness in this view could

18     give any comments or own opinions should be proper foundation before we

19     could continue with these kinds of questions or allowing the witness to

20     volunteer this kind of information to the Court.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Knoops, I would agree with you that perhaps

22     Mr. Hoffmann could have already intervened at an earlier stage.  At the

23     same time, you can object against questions.  The question as such was

24     not soliciting for what the witness told us.  We can't object against

25     answers given by the witness.  Of course you can cross-examine the

Page 2143

 1     witness on the basis of his knowledge.  I tend to agree that statistical

 2     information would need a proper foundation, but what Mr. Hoffmann did, as

 3     a matter of fact, is to try to get witness back to the question he had

 4     put to him.

 5             You may proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.

 6             MR. HOFFMANN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7        Q.   So, Witness, if I may just repeat the question.  Did you have any

 8     knowledge of who established the SDG in Serbia?

 9        A.   At the beginning of my stay in Slavonia, I had no knowledge of

10     who organised the SDG in Serbia.  However, once conflict broke out

11     between my commander Mr. Vaskovic and the commander of the SDG, and when

12     a meeting was held in Erdut between my commander and that -- and the SDG

13     commander Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, it was at that meeting that

14     Zeljko Raznjatovic, aka Arkan, spoke in raised voices and addressed my

15     commander telling him, Do you know who's behind me?  At a certain point

16     in time he took out an ID -- ID which said "State Security Service."  It

17     was a blue ID.  He opened the booklet to show him that it actually

18     contained his personal data and photograph.

19             In addition to that, I can tell you that the SDG was not equipped

20     or supplied by the JNA in terms of weapons and other supplies.  It was

21     not done the JNA logistics, which means that they had the Serbian state

22     security service behind them.

23             MR. KNOOPS:  I strongly object against -- Prosecution is -- the

24     witness is simply not answering the question.  He's just rambling with --

25     with giving all kinds of information on a simple question, and I don't

Page 2144

 1     agree with the Court that there's no objectionable mechanism when a

 2     witness is answering in an unresponsive or in a voluntary way.  Under the

 3     common law principles there is an opportunity for the Defence to object

 4     to the way the witness is answering the questions.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I think I clearly told Mr. Hoffmann that I would

 6     have expected him to intervene at an earlier stage.  The witness is

 7     invited to focus his answers to the questions put to him, and if

 8     Mr. Hoffmann would like to know not only who established the SDG but also

 9     how they were provided with arms, he will certainly ask you about that.

10             Mr. Knoops, finally, the common law I learned, meanwhile, does

11     not exist.  Second, we do not apply in this ICTY common law standards

12     exclusively.

13             Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.

14             MR. HOFFMANN:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I think with respect --

15     with all respect to the witness, he was clearly answering that

16     question --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that the ruling is clear, Mr. Hoffmann.  You

18     may proceed with your next question.

19             MR. HOFFMANN:  Of course, Your Honour.

20        Q.   Witness, you did mention that meeting in Erdut between your

21     commander, Vaskovic, and Arkan, and that Arkan produced a DB ID, and you

22     had said that Arkan had asked, Do you know who's behind me?

23             Do you recall if Arkan said anything further about that?

24        A.   Yes.  Arkan told him, The Ministry of Defence is behind me, as

25     well as the Serbian state security, and I only answer to them, not to

Page 2145

 1     you.  If you keep this up, you could disappear within the next 24 hours.

 2        Q.   Did Arkan mention any names?

 3        A.   Not specifically.  He only told him that he had the MOD backing

 4     him as well as the government of the Republic of Serbia and its state

 5     security service.  He added that he was only answerable to them.

 6        Q.   Now, you did attest to the accuracy of the proofing notes that

 7     were signed by you two days ago.  Do you recall stating that Arkan stated

 8     at that meeting that he could potentially inform somebody if your

 9     commander would insist?

10        A.   Yes.  He said that he could notify those superior to my commander

11     within the Ministry of Defence and the General Staff of the then Yugoslav

12     People's Army.

13        Q.   Do you recall that he made similar statements with regard to the

14     DB?

15             MR. KNOOPS:  I object.  The question is repeatedly asked and

16     answered, and the Prosecution's clearly fishing for another answer, and

17     it's apparently also leading.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me re-read.

19             The objection is denied.  You may repeat the question so that the

20     witness can answer it.

21             MR. HOFFMANN:

22        Q.   Witness, do you recall that Arkan at that meeting, when

23     confronted by your commander, Vaskovic, said anything about informing

24     someone in the Serbian DB?

25        A.   Well, he flashed the state security ID, and he told him at that

Page 2146

 1     point, See?  I even have a state security ID, and I could conclude this

 2     matter by making you disappear in the next 24 hours.  He didn't

 3     specifically say that he would inform the state security, but he did

 4     threaten him.

 5        Q.   As you did attest to the accuracy of your statement signed two

 6     days ago I want to put you that in those notes that you signed that were

 7     read to you, you said:  "Arkan further said, if need be I'll inform

 8     President Milosevic or my chief, Jovica Stanisic."  Do you recall giving

 9     such a statement?

10        A.   I do.  He told him that if need be, he would notify the ministry

11     and even the president of the republic, as well as his superiors in the

12     state security, and this was supposed to be Jovica Stanisic, since he was

13     at the helm of the state security service at the time.

14        Q.   Just to clarify on the record, did he mention him personally as

15     stated in the notes?

16        A.   Yes.  He mentioned the boss, his boss in the state security.  He

17     didn't mention his name, but he mentioned his boss in the state security,

18     and the boss of the SDB at that time was Mr. Jovica Stanisic.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kovacevic, would you please be very precise in

20     your answers, because what you now tell us is at least not in line with a

21     supplemental information sheet which is not in evidence, although you

22     said you reviewed it, and it -- you correct it to the extent needed.

23     There is a difference between referring to "my chief in the DB" and

24     giving a name, even if it is your opinion that Mr. Stanisic was, at the

25     time, the chief of the DB.  Would you please be very precise, and if

Page 2147

 1     there's any need to re-read your answers in the supplemental information

 2     sheet, you can ask it to be provided to you again.

 3             Mr. Hoffmann, you may proceed.

 4             MR. KNOOPS:  Your Honour, may I just --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. KNOOPS:  -- from a legal point ask the guidance of the Court?

 7     It's my submission that now that this additional statement or these

 8     additional proofing notes are not yet admitted into evidence since the

 9     Court has accepted -- or the Prosecution has accepted that these contain

10     new elements, new potential evidence, that questions with respect to that

11     statement should not be leading.  And actually, the first question just

12     posed by my learned friend Mr. Hoffmann relating to this new statement

13     was -- was clearly a leading question.  So it's our position that when

14     Prosecution intends to question the witness, potentially question the

15     witness on the whereabouts of this new statement, it should be on the

16     basis of non-leading questions.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, what Mr. Hoffmann apparently did is to

18     confront the witness with an inconsistent prior statement, although the

19     inconsistency was limited.

20             Mr. Hoffmann, to that extent the questions are leading, and to

21     that extent it is -- usually you would do so with permission of the

22     Court.  You have not asked such permission.  Mr. Knoops is objecting to

23     the leading character of the question.  Would you please keep this in

24     mind if you again want to confront the witness with a statement which is,

25     if not entirely, at least on a detail, inconsistent with the testimony he

Page 2148

 1     gives in court.

 2             MR. HOFFMANN:  Your Honours, if I may briefly respond.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             MR. HOFFMANN:  I think actually if look at the rationale of

 5     Rule 92 ter, that is what is complied with, that is, the witness came to

 6     court.  He had looked at the statement, he said he did review it, and he

 7     did attest to the accuracy of it.  Of course, I understand it's still

 8     marked for identification given the situation with the Defence counsel on

 9     the one side and the issue of prior notice, but I do think that the

10     rationale behind Rule 92 ter is actually fulfilled, and it seems to me

11     proper to -- to lead him on these matters if need be.  I try to avoid

12     that, but I don't see after he did attest to the accuracy of that

13     statement that any leading questions would be actually not permitted.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hoffmann, I'm always careful in seeking

16     verification of my analysis of the situation.  What I just expressed as

17     my view is the Chamber's view and the ruling stands as it is.  Please

18     proceed.

19             MR. HOFFMANN:  Very well, Your Honours.

20        Q.   Witness, just very quickly on this meeting, could you tell the

21     Court when that meeting did happen in Erdut?

22        A.   That meeting in Erdut was held, I think, in September or October.

23     I am not quite certain.  It lasted for about half an hour.  In that

24     discussion or argument between Arkan and my commander --

25        Q.   Interrupt you here.  With all respect, I think you answered the

Page 2149

 1     question.  Would you tell the Court briefly who did attend that meeting,

 2     apart from Mr. Vaskovic, your commander, and Arkan and yourself?

 3        A.   As the driver, I drove Mr. Vaskovic there.  We had another two

 4     soldiers with us, and Mr. Zarko Sljukic.  When we arrived, Arkan summoned

 5     the commander who had originally a conflict with my commander to come in.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  In your 2003 statement, which is now Exhibit P51, at

 7     paragraph 68, and later at paragraph 97 you do refer to the oil fields at

 8     Djeletovci in Eastern Slavonia.  Have you ever been personally at the oil

 9     fields either in 1991 or 1992?

10        A.   In 1992 I was in the oil field, and later, sometime either in

11     1993 or 1994 I was in Djeletovci on several occasions.

12        Q.   When you were at Djeletovci did you see any specific security or

13     any specific guards for those oil fields?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   What kind of security was provided for the oil fields and by

16     whom?

17        A.   Well, the Djeletovci oil fields were secured by armed personnel.

18     On several occasions as I stayed there and as I toured the field as a

19     member of the reserve forces of the republic Serbia MUP, and as I was

20     helping to form local police forces, and the rest, and, as I say, as I

21     was there I learned that the personnel that provided security for the oil

22     fields was composed of the unit known as Skorpios.

23        Q.   Do you know no established or who was behind the Skorpions?

24        A.   The Scorpions unit was established by the state security of the

25     Republic of Serbia, and that unit was later on their strength.

Page 2150

 1        Q.   How do you know that the Skorpions were established by the

 2     Serbian state security?

 3        A.   I know that from a conversation with my superior who was on the

 4     ground.  His name was Stevo Pavkovic.  He told me that those men were

 5     members of a unit that was under the control of the DB.  That unit did

 6     not have any contact and did not receive any orders from our men.  Our

 7     men who were on the ground there.

 8        Q.   Did you ever have any conversation with a certain Jovan Stojic

 9     about that unit?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   What did Jovan Stojic tell you about the Skorpions?

12        A.   Mr. Jovan Stojic at the time was discharging the duties in the

13     state security in the city of Kragujevac.  At that particular time he was

14     he was touring west Slavonia, Srem, and Baranja; he was on duty there.

15        Q.   Now that you have explained his position, if I may repeat the

16     question.  Did Jovan Stojic tell you anything about the Skorpions?

17        A.   Yes.  He told me that that was a unit under their control.

18        Q.   And did you have any personal contact whatsoever with any members

19     of the Skorpions at the time?

20        A.   There were some informal conversations, some informal encounters,

21     and so on.

22        Q.   Witness, do you know who Milorad Ulemek, aka Legija, is?

23        A.   Milorad Ulemek, also known as Legija, as far as I know was a

24     member of the foreigners legion.  I don't know exactly when he joined the

25     unit of the Serbian Volunteers Guard.  And there he was the deputy

Page 2151

 1     commander and the chief instructor for the training of the members of

 2     that unit.

 3        Q.   Do you know how Legija ended up with the SDG?

 4        A.   I don't know exactly, but I can assume.

 5        Q.   Would you let us know?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Let's avoid --

 7             MR. KNOOPS:  Objection.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's avoid the witness to invite assumptions.  If

 9     there are any facts to his knowledge which may support his assumptions

10     you can ask him about those facts, but assumptions are not to be asked

11     for.  Please proceed.

12             MR. HOFFMANN:  Very well.

13        Q.   Do you have any knowledge who controlled the border crossing at

14     Erdut at that time?

15        A.   In 1991 and in 1992, the border crossing or the only crossing at

16     the time at the bridge on Bogojevo on the Croatian side was controlled by

17     the men of the TO, which was under the command of Radovan Stojicic Badza

18     and Serbian Volunteers Guard.

19        Q.   And just for the record if you refer to the bridge on Bogovo --

20     Bogojevo, that is the bridge at or near Erdut?

21        A.   Bogojevo.  Yes.  On the Croatian side the closest town is Erdut,

22     and as you cross the bridge into Serbia, the nearest place is Bogojevo.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Let me now turn to evidence that you gave on

24     Western Bosnia in 1995.  In 2003 in your statement, Exhibit P51, you also

25     describe military operations in Western Bosnia and your deployment with

Page 2152

 1     the police brigade to that area in September 1995, which is at paragraph

 2     116 and following.  You do mention the presence of Arkan and his men in

 3     the area between Sanski Most and Prijedor and refer to Arkan's

 4     activities.  I would like to show you several short clips and ask you for

 5     your comments.  But before I do so, just for the orientation of the

 6     Court, I would refer to map 34 of the Court binder of maps which shows

 7     the area from Sanski Most to Prijedor in Western Bosnia.  I did receive

 8     an indication from the Stanisic defence that there would be no objection

 9     to the admission of this map into evidence.  Given the circumstances, I

10     have not heard from the Simatovic Defence, but I wouldn't expect any

11     objection to this purely road map from the area.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you want to tender it right away or --

13             MR. HOFFMANN:  Just to save time, I would see at the moment no

14     need to show it in court but to tender it right away.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, would you please assign a number to

16     the map.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P55 -- 56, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that even for strategic reasons, there

19     are no objections against this map which seems to be just a geographical

20     picture of the area?

21             MR. KNOOPS:  That's correct, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  P56 is admitted into evidence.

23             MR. HOFFMANN:  The Prosecution will now play a short footage from

24     Prosecution Exhibit 65 ter 2756, video ERN V000-4739, and the clip runs

25     from minute 35:29 to 35:51 of the original tape.

Page 2153

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] Brane Pecanac:  Yesterday, during

 3     the afternoon and evening hours on our stride we accepted to engage in a

 4     clash with enemy forces and push them back immediately.  Today, however,

 5     as per planned tasks we continued on together with commander Borovcanin

 6     and Arkan's Tigers.  We captured important strategic points which are a

 7     precondition for further advancement and linking up with army activity

 8     with the Army of Republika Srpska."

 9             MR. HOFMANN:  I was just told I made a minor mistake.  It's

10     actually 65 ter 2576.

11        Q.   Witness, having seen that short clip, can you tell the Court

12     whether you have seen similar footage before?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Did you recognise any of the people appearing on that footage?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Whom did you recognise?

17        A.   I recognised Mr. Zeljko Raznjatovic in this footage.  I knew

18     Mr. Brane from before because he was a member of the Republika Srpska

19     MUP.  I also knew Mr. Miroslav Rajak, who was the chief of the public

20     security centre in Banja Luka.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me look at it again.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hoffmann, could we ask the witness to identify

24     who he recognises, not only by name but also who on the picture he has

25     identified as the persons he said.  Perhaps we could take a still

Page 2154

 1     somewhere halfway so that he can tell us exactly which person he

 2     identified by what name.

 3             MR. HOFFMANN:  Certainly.  I would suggest that we play it again

 4     and then stop halfway.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, stop halfway.

 6             MR. HOFFMANN:  Of course I don't want to stay stop and by that be

 7     leading but --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but otherwise, the footage will not stop.

 9             MR. HOFFMANN:  Of course.  Will do.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MR. HOFFMANN:

12        Q.   On that video still, Witness, could you identify any of the

13     people that you referred to?

14        A.   Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Shall we take it one by one?  We see one person in

16     the front who apparently is not wearing any beret or is just without any

17     head-wear, the person closest to the camera.  Do you know who that is?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I've already told you, you can

19     see it actually written on the footage, and behind that person is

20     Mr. Zeljko Raznjatovic sporting a red beret on his head.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you say the second man in line wearing the

22     red beret is Mr. Raznjatovic.  Do you recognise the third person who is

23     in the background, apparently wearing a -- another colour of beret?

24             Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 2155

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hoffmann, are you interested in any of the other

 2     persons or not?  If not, then we'll ask no questions.  I see that the

 3     transcript is not -- yes, for the third person, the person in the

 4     background with the different colour of beret, it's my recollection that,

 5     but perhaps I spoke at the same time, that the witness said that he did

 6     not know that third person in the background.

 7             Is that correct, Witness?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

10             MR. HOFFMANN:  And maybe just for the record I think the video

11     was stopped at the very beginning, and I think the exact time code for

12     that one would be 35:29:3.  So it's at the very beginning of the clip,

13     just for the record.

14        Q.   Now, Witness, is that footage and what Mr. Pecanac says on this

15     footage consistent with your knowledge of the presence activities of

16     Arkan's men in Western Bosnia in 1995?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. HOFFMANN:  I would tender this clip into evidence,

19     Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections?

21             MR. KNOOPS:  We have the same position, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it will be marked for identification.

23     Mr. Domazet, any objection?  I see you're nodding yes, so you're joining

24     the position by the Stanisic Defence.

25             Madam Registrar, this footage.

Page 2156

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be Exhibit P57, marked for

 2     identification, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  Please proceed.

 4             MR. HOFFMANN:  We do play another clip which is from

 5     Prosecution Exhibit 65 ter 2609.  It's video ERN V000-7024.  This is the

 6     second part of a documentary of the Serb TV station B-92, called the

 7     unit.  The clip runs from minute 34:42 to 36:29 of the original tape.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] Narrator:  After the fall of

10     Krajina, the Muslim and Croatian armies launched a large offensive on

11     Republika Srpska in the late summer of 1995.  Thus Stanisic sent Arkan

12     and his part of the unit to the Bosnian Krajina.  Arkan's main objective

13     was not the fighting but keeping up discipline in the Army of Republika

14     Srpska, the morale of which had been shaken.

15             "Raznjatovic:  Don't say attention, say atten-tion!  Let's go!

16     Teach him how to give orders.  Come on there's no shame in it.  The whole

17     Serbian nation is looking at you.  To them you're neither heroes, nor

18     Serbian knights.  I don't want a single Serbian here or Serbian knight

19     leaving his position like an asshole and sitting down by the school, not

20     giving an shit about the position!  Is that clear?  There will be no

21     slump in morale.  I'm tired, four months ... after all, what is four

22     months?  What if the war lasts another 14 years, what do we do then?  Do

23     we surrender?  No, we're not going to surrender!  This is Serb land!

24     Sacred Serb land.  Is this where you -- your graves are?  This is where

25     your churches are.  You have to defend what belongs to you.  You are

Page 2157

 1     defending your homes.  Don't let me hear you say that you are tired again

 2     because you're not tired!  Chin up everybody!  Chin up!  You're a Serb

 3     army.

 4             "VRS Officer:  Battalion, attention!

 5             "Raznjatovic:  Well done, champ.  That's it.

 6             "VRS Officer:  Right dress!

 7             "Raznjatovic:  All as one!  That is what a Serb army should be!"

 8             MR. HOFFMANN:

 9        Q.   Witness, in your 2003 statement, paragraph 118, among others, you

10     do refer to Arkan and the way he treated the local population and how he

11     and his men were arresting, retreating Serb soldiers and forcing them

12     back to the combat lines.  Based on your personal experience as described

13     in your statement at the time in western Bosnian, would you say that the

14     footage that was just played is accurate and consistent with your own

15     personal knowledge?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Have you ever seen such footage before, or have you ever been

18     present at similar occasions?

19        A.   I can't remember the exact date, but I can say that that was

20     sometime in September 1995, somewhere near Ostra Luka on the road from

21     Prijedor to Sanski Most.

22        Q.   Do you know why Arkan's men, the SDG arrived to Western Bosnia?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hoffmann, could I first seek clarification of

24     the previous answer.

25             You said, "I can't remember the exact date, but you can say that

Page 2158

 1     it was sometime in September 1995."

 2             Now, were you referring to the event which was shown during the

 3     footage, or are you referring to similar occasions?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I spoke about a similar event which

 5     took place near Ostra Luka on the road between Prijedor and Sanski Most.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that clarification.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.

 8             MR. HOFFMANN:  I'm very grateful for your clarification,

 9     Your Honour.

10        Q.   Coming back to my question, do you know why or upon whose request

11     or order Arkan's men, the SDG arrived to Western Bosnian at that time?

12        A.   Well, the SDG arrived at a request put by the Government of

13     Republika Srpska.  The Government of Republika Srpska requested

14     assistance to stop the offensive which had been launched by the Bosnian

15     and Croatian armies.

16        Q.   Do you know who that request was sent to?

17        A.   The request was sent to the Ministry of Defence of the Republic

18     of Serbia, to the government of the Republic of Serbia, and to the MUP of

19     the Republic of Serbia.

20             MR. KNOOPS:  Your Honour, at this point, I really ask myself

21     whether this witness is in a position without proper foundation to

22     comment on the way orders were issued and documents were filed.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Knoops, I do agree that these questions and

24     answers are in need of laying a foundation.  Of course not primarily the

25     questions, but if the witness answers these questions to assess the

Page 2159

 1     probative value of the testimony, it is important to know the source or

 2     how does he know this.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. HOFFMANN:  That was exactly my next question.

 5        Q.   Witness, do you recall that you talked to your -- to your unit

 6     commander at the time Miladin Milic about the SDG?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Did he mention what you have said before regarding the request of

 9     the RS and who that request was sent to?

10             MR. KNOOPS:  Your Honour, I believe this is also leading.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  This certainly is leading.  Mr. Hoffmann, could you

12     rephrase your question.

13             MR. HOFFMANN:  Certainly I will.

14        Q.   Could you tell the Court, please, Witness, what Mr. Milic did

15     tell you about how and why the SDG came to Western Bosnia?

16             MR. KNOOPS:  It's still leading.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  It's still leading, Mr. Hoffmann.  I'll take over.

18             As you testified, Witness, you had a conversation with

19     Miladin Milic.  Did he tell you anything about the SDG arriving in

20     Western Bosnian?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Mr. Milic told me that before

22     the SDG arrived that they were supposed to arrive.  Besides, I saw a copy

23     of the document that was issued after the session of the government of

24     the Republika Srpska which was sent to the government of the Republic of

25     Serbia and the MUP of the Republic of Serbia for -- asking for assistance

Page 2160

 1     in manpower, weapons, and other equipment.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You said you saw a copy of the document.  Could you

 3     explain to us how this document came under your eyes?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My superior had a copy of that

 5     document.  That's when I saw it for the first time.  And then again I saw

 6     the document here in The Hague when I provided my testimony in the

 7     Perisic case.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Did Mr. Milic show it to you specifically?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  We had known each other from

10     before as civilians, and we were on really good terms.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.  Well, I say please

12     proceed, Mr. Hoffmann, but it's time for a break.

13             If we would resume at ten minutes to 6.00 I would expect you to

14     finish your examination-in-chief still today.  Is that correct?

15             MR. HOFFMANN:  I will certainly do so.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.  We will have a break, and we will

17     resume at 10 minutes to 6.00.

18                           --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hoffmann, you may proceed.

21             MR. HOFFMANN:  Thank you, Your Honour.  At this point in time I

22     have no further questions on this particular video, which is 65 ter 2609,

23     and I would tender it into evidence, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Same reservation if, I take it --

25             Madam Registrar, could you please assign a number to the video

Page 2161

 1     footage to be marked for identification.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P58 marked for identification,

 3     Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 5             Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.

 6             MR. HOFFMANN:  We will now play another clip, this time from 65

 7     ter 4270, video ERN V000-1416.  And the first that that clip relates --

 8     runs from minute 1 to minute 3:59.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] NV:  Sir, the battalion of the

11     Serbian Volunteer Guard is lined up in your honour.  Ranks ready for

12     inspection.

13             "RK:  For the guard and for you as the commander of the guard.

14             "ZRA:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

15             "RK:  Gratitude for you being there this is not the end this is

16     the begin:

17             "ZRA:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  Would you be so kind

18     as to say a few words.

19             "RK:  I am deeply thankful and I congratulate you, and I hope

20     that we will meet again in peace, and you will always have a place in the

21     heart of those who you have defended.  Thank you.

22             "ZRA:  Mr. President, in the name of the Serbian Volunteer Guard

23     I wish to say two words to you which is that we are ready if you call us

24     and that we will be back to defend our ancient homeland, to defend our

25     women and children, to defend the Serbian territory and our Orthodox

Page 2162

 1     religion.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2             "RK:  Cheers.

 3             "ZRA:  Very well, Mr. President.  We are going back now.  I want

 4     to thank you once again.

 5             "RK:  Good-bye."

 6             MR. HOFFMANN:

 7        Q.   Witness, did you have a chance to see that footage before coming

 8     to court?

 9        A.   I had seen that footage even before.  This is an excerpt from a

10     documentary called "The Unit."  This was a line-up of the Serb Volunteer

11     Guard in Bijeljina, which is in Republika Srpska, which was just prior to

12     their return from Republika Srpska to their base in Erdut.

13        Q.   Can you tell the Court when this parade took place?

14        A.   This parade took place in 1995, once the combat in the Krajina

15     was over.  I think it was in October 1995.

16        Q.   And just for the record, if you refer to the combat in the

17     Krajina, which Krajina do you refer to?

18        A.   The environs of Prijedor, Sanski Most, Bosanski Petrovac, and

19     Banja Luka.  That is what is the Bosnian Krajina territory.

20        Q.   Were you present at the ceremony, present in Bijeljina at the

21     time?

22        A.   Yes.  I was in Bijeljina.  I was returning with my unit to the

23     Republic of Serbia.  Five days after the Serb Volunteer Guard had gone,

24     we returned to Serbia as well.

25        Q.   Do you recall what Karadzic handed over to Arkan on this clip?

Page 2163

 1        A.   It was a certificate of thanks of the Government of

 2     Republika Srpska to the Serb Volunteers Guard given to the commander

 3     Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, for his role in the defence of the Krajina.

 4        Q.   To your knowledge did any other unit, including your own police

 5     brigade, receive any such letter?

 6        A.   My unit, including a battalion of our MP brigade, did not receive

 7     such a certificate.  We arrived in Republika Srpska in August with a

 8     different task, which was to secure a safe withdrawal of the refugees

 9     from the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  This is where we were engaged in

10     combat.

11             MR. HOFFMANN:  Your Honours, at this point in time Prosecution

12     would tender this clip from 65 ter 4270 into evidence.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Same reservation.

14             Madam Registrar, would you please assign a number to this video

15     footage to be marked for identification.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P59 marked for identification,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

19             Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.

20             MR. HOFFMANN:  Thank you, Your Honours.  And just quickly for --

21     for the ease of reference, the area of Bijeljina could be found in the

22     Map 28 of the court binder of maps.  Again I had indication from the

23     Stanisic Defence that there would be no objection to tendering this map

24     into evidence, again it's a purely road map.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Is Madam Registrar informed about the 65 ter number

Page 2164

 1     of the map?

 2                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It's been uploaded.

 4             Madam Registrar, that would be number?

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P60, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  P60 is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed.

 7             MR. HOFFMANN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 8        Q.   Witness, let me take you quickly back to your 2003 statement,

 9     P51.  You do again refer to paramilitary units in paragraph 52 of that

10     statement.  With regard to Arkan's men, the SDG, you do state:

11             "I was there when Zeljko Raznjatovic told his senior and junior

12     commanders he did not want to see a single prisoner.  Arkan's men shot at

13     anyone who surrendered."

14             Can you tell the Court when you heard such comment by Arkan?

15        A.   It was in 1991, just prior to the final combat for the liberation

16     of Vukovar.

17        Q.   Can you give us a bit more detail about at what occasion you did

18     hear Arkan make those -- that statement?

19             MR. KNOOPS:  Your Honour, I do repeat my objection that this is

20     also according to the state of the witness referring to Vukovar, which is

21     not part of the indictment.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's try to find out, Mr. Hoffmann.  I think

23     that the witness said already something about it and you made an

24     observation in this respect.

25             MR. HOFFMANN:  Yes.  If --

Page 2165

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  When those words, Witness, were spoken, you said it

 2     was just prior to the final combat for the liberation of Vukovar.  Could

 3     you tell us where that was exactly?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was next to Brsadin, next to a

 5     forest called Djerga which was close to the Brsadin Silo towards Borovo

 6     Naselje and a location called Luzac.  Along the road between Skradin and

 7     Borovo Naselje.  Luzac is there separating the settlement of Borovo

 8     Naselje and Vukovar itself.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, did you understand those words to apply

10     only for the imminent action in Vukovar, or was he focusing on that, I

11     want to see any prisoners in Vukovar, or was it a kind of general

12     statement?  Could you tell us how you understood it at the time?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His unit was sent along the battle

14     axis towards Luzac.  He was issuing orders to his officers to the effect

15     that he had no interest in any prisoners.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You said the battle axis towards Luzac.  I'll have

17     to find that on the map before I know.

18             MR. HOFFMANN:  If I may refer Your Honours to Map 18.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. HOFFMANN:  Which is P9 in evidence.  It is actually not

21     listed because it's such a small village, but I would just simply ask the

22     witness to confirm that Luzac is just outside Vukovar.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hoffmann suggests that Luzac is just outside

24     Vukovar.  Is that correct?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Luzac is on the road between

Page 2166

 1     Borovo Naselje and Vukovar.  It is actually in the outskirts of the city

 2     of Vukovar.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I consulted with my colleagues that even if the

 5     observations made even in relation to the operations near Vukovar, that

 6     that does not mean that it loses all of its relevance for other

 7     situations, and therefore the objection is denied.

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.

 9             MR. HOFFMANN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

10        Q.   Now, Witness, I'll -- would like to ask you a couple of questions

11     specifically in relation to the accused, and I want to remind you of what

12     the Presiding Judge said earlier, that if at any time you feel safer

13     giving certain information in closed session, you may so indicate to the

14     Chamber and request that we do move into closed session for a particular

15     aspect of your testimony.

16             I'd like to ask you whether you at any time did ever see the

17     accused Stanisic in person.

18        A.   Yes, I did.

19        Q.   Can you tell the Court when you did see him for the first time?

20        A.   I cannot remember the exact date, but I think I saw him the first

21     time in 1991.

22        Q.   And where did you see Mr. Stanisic at that time?

23        A.   I saw him for the first time in the centre of Erdut.

24        Q.   Can you please describe the occasion or the event at which you

25     did see Mr. Stanisic in Erdut in 1991?

Page 2167

 1        A.   I drove my superior to a meeting in Erdut to see Mr. Badza.  I

 2     was standing next to my car together with Captain Zeljko Sucic when a

 3     vehicle came by.  Some people came out and Captain Sucic told me that

 4     Jovica Stanisic has arrived.

 5        Q.   Did you hear from Captain Sucic or from anyone else about the

 6     purpose of Stanisic arriving in Erdut?

 7        A.   He did not say anything about that.  I supposed it was because of

 8     a meeting or an agreement that was to be discussed.

 9        Q.   Was Mr. Stanisic arriving on his own or with other people?

10        A.   I think there were other -- three or four people accompanying

11     him.

12        Q.   Was there any later occasion on that that you saw Mr. Stanisic in

13     person?

14        A.   Yes, there was.

15        Q.   Can you tell the Court when that was?

16        A.   Yes, I can, but since I need to mention a name, I would kindly

17     ask that we move into closed session.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, although the question is about when.

19     Apparently the witness wants to answer the question in the context of

20     persons.

21             We move into private session.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2168

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 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 2169

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 3             MR. HOFFMANN:

 4        Q.   Witness, you just indicated that you had seen Mr. Stanisic at one

 5     occasion in Duna Street where a convoy was about to leave for the RS and

 6     the RSK.  Can you tell us what kind of convoy you were referring to?

 7        A.   A convoy was formed which was meant to supply Republika Srpska

 8     and Republika Srpska Krajina.  The trucks were loaded with different

 9     types of supplies starting with oil, ammunition, cigarettes, equipment,

10     and so on and so forth.  My truck was loaded with cigarettes.  That was

11     done in a place called Vinca, and then we were supposed to assemble in

12     Dorcula [phoen] Street in Belgrade.  That's where the departure had been

13     planned for Republika Srpska and Republika Srpska Krajina.

14        Q.   Sir, could you tell the Court about when this happened that you

15     did see Mr. Stanisic at this occasion?

16        A.   It was sometime in 1994 or 1995.  I cannot recall exactly.  I

17     took part in several such convoys.

18        Q.   Can you describe what Mr. Stanisic did when you saw him at that

19     occasion?

20        A.   Mr. Stanisic arrived there in a car.  The trucks had been parked

21     there, although I don't know exactly how many.  I was standing there with

22     a friend of mine who was an SDB employee.  I can mention his name if I

23     need to.  It is Dragan Miletic, aka Zuca.  When the car arrived, he told

24     me that the boss had arrived.

25        Q.   Did you see anything that Mr. Stanisic did at the time when he

Page 2170

 1     arrived?

 2        A.   He talked to some people, although I don't know who they were.  I

 3     only know that the group of people he was talking to was joined by a

 4     person I knew well since at that time I lived in Surcin.  I knew him very

 5     well.  It was Ljubisa Buha.

 6        Q.   Did that person, Ljubisa Buha, tell you anything about what

 7     Mr. Stanisic said or did?

 8        A.   No.  Since at Vinca two or three trucks were being loaded,

 9     Mr. Buha was there overseeing the loading, and then he accompanied us to

10     Duna Street.

11        Q.   Apart from those occasions that you have described just now, was

12     there at a later stage any other occasion that you did see Mr. Stanisic

13     in person?

14        A.   Well, I saw him when we were providing security for the exchange

15     process of UN personnel and those pilots which had been shot down over

16     Republika Srpska, when he went to Republika Srpska to arrange with their

17     government, to arrange for their release.  My unit was tasked with

18     providing security between Mali Zvornik and to Koza 4 at Simanovci on the

19     highway to Belgrade.  My commanding officer at the time was Stevo

20     Pavkovic.  He was in charge of implementing that operation.

21        Q.   What time period are we referring to with regard to that

22     incident?

23        A.   I think it was around the time when Republika Srpska was being

24     bombed.  I cannot recall if it was in 1994 or 1995 with any certainly.  I

25     cannot recall exactly since I did not keep any notes about that.

Page 2171

 1        Q.   Now, turning to the second accused, Frenki Simatovic, did you

 2     ever have a chance to see him in person?

 3        A.   I saw Mr. Frenki Simatovic on a very few occasions, perhaps two

 4     or three times and from afar, but I did see him on television before and

 5     after that on a few occasions.

 6        Q.   Can you tell the Court when you for the first time see

 7     Mr. Simatovic in person?

 8        A.   The first time was when I was preparing myself to leave for

 9     Slavonia and Baranja at the Bubanj Potok barracks.

10        Q.   Can you describe on what specific occasion at those barracks you

11     did see Mr. Simatovic.

12        A.   I don't know what the specific reason was for Mr. Simatovic to

13     come to the barracks.  At the barracks in Bubanj Potok there were several

14     units at the time.  There was the Serbian MUP, the JNA there, as well as

15     certain volunteers who volunteered to go to the Slavonian theatre.  I

16     don't know what the reason for his visit to the Bubanj Potok barracks

17     was.

18        Q.   Did you see Mr. Simatovic at the barracks, or was he arriving at

19     a certain time?

20        A.   I saw him at the point at which he arrived, and then he went away

21     with some people, perhaps one or two of them.  He went to the barracks

22     command at Bubanj Potok.

23        Q.   What exactly were you doing at the Bubanj Potok barracks when you

24     refer to preparing yourself to leave for Slavonia and Baranja?

25        A.   We were being prepared.  We had shooting exercises as well as

Page 2172

 1     basic tactical infantry training.

 2        Q.   Do you know any of the persons that arrived with Mr. Simatovic to

 3     the barracks?

 4        A.   No.  I was standing a bit further away from them.  From a

 5     colleague of mine who was an active policeman in the police brigade, I

 6     heard that he had recognised Frenki Simatovic.  I never saw him before,

 7     and that day when I saw him it was only from a bit far.

 8        Q.   Later on when you were actually deployed to the area of the SAO

 9     SBWS, did you see Mr. Simatovic at any time there?

10        A.   I saw him in 1991 in the centre of Erdut, but I can't remember

11     when exactly.  I believe that that was towards the end of August or

12     early September 1991.  I often came to the centre of Erdut, although my

13     unit was billeted in the village called Vera at the time.

14        Q.   Can you describe the occasion at which you saw Mr. Simatovic in

15     1991 in Erdut.

16        A.   As I've already said, I can't remember the exact period.  I found

17     myself in the training centre of the MUP in Erdut where the staff of the

18     Serb Volunteer Guard and the staff of the TO of Western Slavonia,

19     Baranja, and Srem were stationed.  The head was Radovan Stojicic Badza.

20     There were my officers there, and they came for consultations to Erdut.

21        Q.   Was it at that time that you did see Mr. Simatovic?

22        A.   Yes.  I was within the perimeter waiting for my superior, and I

23     saw him arriving in a car.  I can't remember the make of the car, whether

24     it was a jeep or a Puh.  I really can't remember what it was.

25        Q.   Did you later find out whether Mr. Simatovic took part in any of

Page 2173

 1     the consultations you mentioned earlier?

 2        A.   Yes.  When I returned to Vera, I spoke to my superior.  My

 3     superior's name was Vaskovic, and there was also Captain First Class

 4     Zeljko Lukic, and I learned from them that Frenki Simatovic had also

 5     attended the meeting.

 6        Q.   Was anything mentioned what the meeting was about?

 7        A.   No.  They actually spoke to each other.  There was reference made

 8     to him, and later on I did not attend any meetings at the staff.  All I

 9     know is what I could hear in the jeep as we were travelling from Erdut to

10     Vera on the way back from Erdut.

11        Q.   Just for the record, could you tell us, according to your

12     knowledge and what you heard from your superiors, who did attend that

13     meeting with Mr. Simatovic?

14        A.   Well, as far as I could overhear, Radovan Stojicic, Badza;

15     Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, were present at the meeting.  I believe that

16     Major General Bratic was also there, but I can't be sure, and certain

17     commanders of the Territorial Defence who were in charge of the defence

18     of certain villages.

19        Q.   Apart from that one meeting in Erdut at sometime in 1991, did you

20     see Mr. Simatovic at another occasion?

21        A.   Very briefly at the state security institute, just in passing as

22     I was bringing mail from the field.

23        Q.   But apart from that brief seeing Mr. Simatovic at the state

24     security institute, there was no occasion that you did see Mr. Simatovic

25     in the SAO SBWS?

Page 2174

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Do you recall --

 3        A.   I can only add to that that on three or four occasions only I

 4     went there and brought mail.

 5        Q.   Witness, you have testified that you did see Mr. Simatovic in

 6     1991 before leaving to the SAO SBWS in Bubanj Potok at the barracks.  Was

 7     that the only time you saw him there?

 8        A.   I saw him once more as men were being transported, perhaps in

 9     1994, but I'm not sure, to Republika Srpska and Republika Srpska Krajina.

10        Q.   What kind of men are you referring to?

11        A.   Men who had been in the territory of the Republic of Serbia who

12     were militarily able-bodied and did not have the citizenship of the

13     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the citizenship of the Republic of

14     Serbia.  At that time in 1994, I was assigned to provide security on

15     Koza 4 check-point from Surcin to new Belgrade.  There I received a

16     dispatch from the MUP saying that anybody who was not in possession of

17     legal citizenship, who hailed from the territory of Bosnia and

18     Herzegovina should be kept and that the nearest police station should be

19     informed thereof, and the police then proceeded to bring them in.

20        Q.   Can you describe the occasion on which you did see Mr. Simatovic

21     at the barracks in the context of these men being transported to the RS

22     and the RSK?

23        A.   Since I was a professional driver who was assigned to the

24     1st company of the 1st Battalion of the police brigade, and I served in

25     the auto unit, the company had three or four busses, passenger buses.  I

Page 2175

 1     can't remember when it was when I received a task from my commander, from

 2     my company commander to prepare the buses.  Together with a colleague of

 3     mine, we were supposed to prepare two buses and take them to the barracks

 4     in Dugi Potok where we were supposed to place ourselves at the disposal

 5     of the commander of the Dugi Potok barracks.

 6        Q.   Witness, can I ask you to go back to the question.  I would

 7     simply ask you to explain when and on what occasion you saw Mr. Simatovic

 8     at the Bubanj Potok barracks at the time.

 9        A.   As the convoy was leaving -- or, rather, before the convoy left,

10     Mr. Simatovic came to Dugi Potok and went to the Dugi Potok garrison for

11     a meeting.

12        Q.   Did you know how long this meeting lasted?

13        A.   No.  It lasted perhaps two to three hours, or maybe even longer.

14        Q.   Did you see Mr. Simatovic leaving again?

15        A.   No.  I did not see him at the moment when he got into the car,

16     because people already started boarding the buses, and the officer of the

17     Army of Yugoslavia who was leaving for the territory of Republika Srpska,

18     who was sitting in the same bus with me, Lieutenant Colonel

19     Milos Tomasevic, was standing at the door and the cars zoomed by.  I did

20     not observe the moment when Mr. Simatovic got into one of the cars, so I

21     can't give you any detail of the time when that happened.

22        Q.   Did you see either or both of the accused at any time after 1995?

23        A.   In 1997, at the celebration of the day of the units for special

24     operations which was staged in Kula.

25        Q.   Can you tell us where Kula is located?

Page 2176

 1        A.   Kula is in Backa, in Vojvodina.  In Serbia, to be more precise.

 2     It belongs to the autonomous province of Vojvodina.  It is on the road

 3     leading from Novi Sad towards Sombor.

 4        Q.   You --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hoffmann, could I seek clarification of one

 6     answer.  You said you saw at the celebration of the day of the units for

 7     special operations in Kula, you saw you saw Mr. Simatovic or Mr. Stanisic

 8     or both?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that celebration in Kula I saw

10     Mr. Stanisic as well as Mr. Frenki Simatovic.  There was also

11     Mr. Mihajl Kertes who was the director of the federal administration of

12     customs, officers -- President Milosevic and some other personalities as

13     well.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You answered my question by telling that you

15     saw them both.  Please proceed.

16             MR. HOFFMANN:  The Prosecution would now play two clips from a

17     video which is 65 ter 582, video ERN V000-3533, and it's simply done for

18     the witness to confirm that he has reviewed this video before.  On this

19     video I do have indication from the Stanisic Defence that there are no

20     objection to the admission of this video.  Giving the current

21     circumstances, I do not have a clear indication from the

22     Simatovic Defence, but I would first play those two clips.  The first

23     clip is running from minute 5:10 to minute 5:34 of the original tape and

24     shows the arrival of Slobodan Milosevic.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 2177

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] SM:  It's a lovely day."

 2             MR. HOFFMANN:  And then we have a second clip which runs from

 3     minute 9:02 to 10:40.  It shows President Milosevic and Stanisic with a

 4     number of members of the unit for special operations JSO.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] ZI:  Mr. President, veterans of

 7     the Special Operations Unit of the Republic of Serbia State Security are

 8     lined up for inspection.  Colonel Zika Ivanovic reporting.

 9             "SM:  Hello Ivanovic.

10             "ZI:  Mr. President, allow me to introduce the unit's veteran

11     officers.  Mr. President, Colonel Radojica Bozovic.

12             "SM:  Hello Bozovic.  I read those reports of yours.

13             "RB:  Thank you.  God forbid there should be more of them.

14             "ZI:  Colonel Vasilije Mijovic.

15             "SM:  Pleased to meet you.

16             "ZI:  Colonel Goran Opacic.

17             "SM:  Hello.

18             "ZI:  Colonel Predrag Prica.

19             "SM:  Pleased to meet you.

20             "ZI:  Lieutenant-colonel Zvezdan Jovanovic.

21             "Lieutenant colonel Simo Ratkovic.

22             "SM:  Pleased to meet you.

23             "Lieutenant-colonel, pilot, Milutin Radivojevic.

24             "SM:  Pleased to meet you.

25             "ZI:  Major Filipovic.

Page 2178

 1             "SM:  Hello, Major.

 2             "ZI:  Major Davor Subotic.

 3             "SM:  Hello."

 4             MR. HOFFMANN:

 5        Q.   Witness, are these two clips just played now in court to you part

 6     of the video that you had a chance to view earlier on?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And having reviewed the video at full length, are you familiar

 9     with the content of the video?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Did you attend the celebration in Kula yourself?

12        A.   Yes.  However, the manpower of the unit of the police brigade was

13     assigned to provide security for the road from Belgrade to Kula.  I was

14     there.

15        Q.   Did you say you were there, or do you refer to the Kula camp as

16     such?

17        A.   Yes.  I was near -- or to be more precise, within the perimeter

18     of the Stolc [phoen] barracks on a hilltop near Kula after I had brought

19     the manpower by bus to Kula.

20        Q.   Let me clarify that.  Is that to be understood that you were on

21     the area of the Kula camp itself?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Is the video we've seen and which you have reviewed earlier on,

24     is that the celebration you did testify that you did see Mr. Simatovic

25     and Mr. Stanisic?

Page 2179

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Having seen the entire video, would you say that the video is

 3     authentic in its report of that celebration at the Kula camp in 1997?

 4             MR. KNOOPS:  Your Honour, I was made understood by the witness

 5     that he was not with the ceremony itself but merely on the premises and

 6     therefore not at the ceremony celebrations itself.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hoffmann.

 8             MR. HOFFMANN:  Your Honours, I tried to be very brief after I had

 9     indication from the Stanisic Defence that there would be no objection to

10     the admission of the entire video into evidence.  However, when the

11     witness was shown the video, he did indeed, you know, was able to make

12     more comments, and that could be done if need be, but it was always my

13     understanding since actually the filing of the Stanisic Defence pre-trial

14     brief that there is no issue about the authenticity of that video.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any authenticity issue involved in this

16     video, Mr. Knoops?

17             MR. KNOOPS:  Not at such, but we were under the impression

18     that --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That was my question.

20             Mr. Hoffmann, what are you seeking to establish at this moment

21     with this question?

22             MR. HOFFMANN:  I simply want to establish that the witness did

23     see the entire video.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. HOFFMANN:  He was present at the Kula camp at the time of

Page 2180

 1     the celebration --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  He testified that already, yes.

 3             MR. HOFFMANN:  He did not attend some parts of the meeting.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. HOFFMANN:  But he has knowledge about --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. HOFFMANN:  -- what happened on that day.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's put the question so to the witness.

 9             Did you see anything on this video, Mr. Kovacevic, which is

10     inconsistent with what you experienced when you were there at that

11     occasion?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I brought the manpower to Kula, and

13     then from Kula to the Stolc barracks.  People were assigned by their

14     officers.  I brought the bus, and I parked it at the Stolc barracks.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm going to stop you there.  When you watched the

16     video, was there anything you saw on that video thinking back to that

17     occasion where you were at the Kula camp of which you'd be surprised that

18     that may have been a video of that occasion, anything which was not

19     fitting into what is in your memory about that day and that occasion.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I didn't see anything that is

21     not consistent with my recollection of the day.  I was only surprised to

22     see the technical equipment that that unit possessed.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.

24             MR. HOFFMANN:  Prosecution would tender this entire video into

25     evidence, that is 65 ter 582.

Page 2181

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Same reservation, I take it.

 2             MR. KNOOPS:  In this circumstance we don't have objection to this

 3     particular exhibit.  So --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, to the video.

 5             MR. KNOOPS:  The video as such, yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Video as such.

 7             Mr. Domazet, any objections against this video in its entirety to

 8     be admitted into evidence?

 9             MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I cannot say anything

10     about that.  I will leave it to you to decide, but I believe that you

11     have not understood the witness.  He was in a different barracks.  He was

12     not at the Luga -- Kula camp.  He was not an eyewitness, but when it

13     comes to the footage it is definitely authentic.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So there's no issue as far as the

15     authenticity is concerned, but you have some concerns on the

16     understanding of the testimony of the witness.

17             Were you on that day on the premises of the Kula camp in

18     whatever --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in the camp itself, in the

20     very camp.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Earlier in your question you were talking

22     about area of the Kula camp which was not unambiguous, Mr. Hoffmann.

23             Thank you for that answer.

24             No authenticity concerns.

25             Madam Registrar, the number to be assigned would be?

Page 2182

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P61, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  P61 is admitted into evidence.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.

 4             MR. HOFFMANN:

 5        Q.   Given the time that we have reached now, I would rather stop my

 6     examination-in-chief, and with Your Honours leave when the time comes may

 7     ask for additional questions.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You asked for two hours, and you said it could be

 9     less if there would be no problems in relation to the supplemental

10     information sheet, which means that -- and there were problems, so I took

11     it that you would need two hours.

12             I think that you used two hours, but we could verify that.

13                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You used a little bit over two hours, Mr. Hoffmann.

15             MR. HOFFMANN:  Thank you for that clarification.  However, the

16     initial estimate of two hours was made before we knew about the evidence

17     that, you know, he was able to give this week, and I was certainly trying

18     to get all the issues on examination-in-chief done before 7.00 today.

19     However, given the fact that there were a couple of objections and a

20     couple of discussions on the -- as well on the proofing notes as well as

21     on the exhibits, I think if and when the witness would have to return, at

22     the time I would maybe ask for an additional 10 or 15 minutes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You're talking about 10 or 15 minutes.  The Chamber

24     will consider that and at least it's clear that you want to finish your

25     examination-in-chief as the matter stands now at this moment.  In view of

Page 2183

 1     the --

 2             Yes, Mr. Hoffman.

 3             MR. HOFFMANN:  Just one little technical matter.  I was informed

 4     that Exhibit P54 has been uploaded again into e-court without the ICTY

 5     stamp.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that information.

 7             Mr. Groome.

 8             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I would seek a clarification with

 9     respect to your ruling dealing with trace markings of other cases on

10     documents.  You made it on, I think, page 35 of today's transcript.

11     While I certainly agree and see the merit in ensuring that witnesses work

12     with original documents, it seems to me that different principles should

13     apply when the exhibits are part of a 92 ter package, it seems to me that

14     the more proper thing for the Prosecution would be to produce as

15     faithfully as possible the actual exhibit if --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  If exhibits are presented as exhibits closely

17     related to transcript of testimony in other cases where it's clear that

18     we're more or less importing evidence from other cases, then there might

19     be less problems.  The only thing I wanted to point at that we should

20     avoid that we're already on documents we often have authenticity stamps

21     or stamps received there and there that we are flooded with all kind of

22     stamps also stamps which are totally irrelevant for the probative value

23     of the document, that is that these documents have been used elsewhere.

24     But I see your point, and I'll discuss it with my colleagues that there

25     is less of a problem if the exhibits are introduced from another case.

Page 2184

 1             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further matter?

 3             Mr. Kovacevic -- well, first of all, Mr. Knoops, in view of the

 4     time it's of no use to invite you to see whether -- or even to encourage

 5     you to see whether there's any possible start for cross-examination.

 6     I'll explain the situation to Mr. Kovacevic.

 7             Mr. Kovacevic, it's not the first time that you are in a

 8     courtroom in The Hague, so you may be aware that after the examination by

 9     the party that called you as a witness that you would be cross-examined

10     by the other party.  Now, for various reasons unrelated to you, for

11     various reasons, the Defence, both the Stanisic and the Simatovic

12     Defence, would need more time to prepare for such cross-examination,

13     which means since that more time could be up to weeks or even month that

14     you'll not be cross-examined at this moment.  Therefore, you will be

15     called at a later stage to come back to The Hague in order to be

16     cross-examined.  This also means that meanwhile you should not discuss

17     with anyone your testimony.  Under normal circumstances that's only for

18     the next day, but for you it could be a considerable period of time in

19     which you are instructed not to speak with anyone, not to discuss your

20     testimony, whether testimony you already gave today or whether testimony

21     still to be given when being cross-examined.  Is that clear to you?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Clear.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

24             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, could I simply ask that given the

25     concerns that he expressed earlier that you also advise him that should

Page 2185

 1     anyone contact him in what way that feels is inappropriate, that he

 2     should feel free to contact VWS.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for this suggestion.

 4             Mr. Kovacevic, if you experience anything of being

 5     inappropriately being approached by anyone in relation to your testimony

 6     here, you're perfectly free, and you're even invited, encouraged, and

 7     urged to immediately contact the Victims and Witness Section of this

 8     Tribunal.  Is that clear to you as well?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I will ask Madam Usher to escort you out of the

11     courtroom.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we adjourn, I would like to make one comment.

14             Mr. Simatovic, you addressed the Chamber, and as I said earlier

15     there was no need to have it filed, but if you prefer to have it filed

16     that it could be done through Mr. Domazet.

17             Now, the Chamber meanwhile could have a look at the filing.  In

18     the filing you'll present yourself as being unrepresented.  That is not

19     the present situation.  You still are represented by Mr. Domazet, and

20     therefore Mr. Domazet should have signed that submission, that filing,

21     because to act on your own the Chamber may allow you to do so, and we

22     invited you to address us yesterday, we invited to address us today, so

23     there's nothing long with that, but on paper it's still Mr. Domazet who

24     represents you.  And of course if there would be any problem, but here I

25     couldn't imagine any problem because it was the literal text apparently

Page 2186

 1     you had prepared just to be filed again.  There was no real need to do

 2     that, because it's already on the transcript, but I just want to avoid

 3     whatever misunderstanding of your present situation, that is that you're

 4     still at this moment represented by Mr. Domazet.  The Chamber hopes that

 5     early next week that there will be a possibility to work out your future

 6     Defence team and that we find an acceptable solution for the transitional

 7     period.  I do understand that the proposal also includes solutions for

 8     examination of witnesses.  We hope -- we'll ask OLAD to keep us updated

 9     on any developments, and as I said before, the Chamber is willing to

10     facilitate solutions by either considering to adapt to some extent the

11     court schedule and also to see whether it can promote further cooperation

12     between Prosecution and Defence in order to organise the presentation of

13     evidence in such a way that the difficulties you're facing at this moment

14     will be less.

15             We'll not sit as scheduled next week.  The Chamber will issue a

16     Scheduling Order when we will proceed, but as matters stand now, the

17     parties should keep in the back of their mind that we would proceed as

18     scheduled before apart from the two days next week, but the Chamber will

19     inform the parties about any further scheduling issues.

20             I would like to thank the interpreters, transcribers, and whoever

21     is assisting us, including security, for again allowing six additional

22     minutes.

23             We stand adjourned.

24                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.06 p.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 9th day

Page 2187

 1                           of September, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.