1 Monday, 25 January 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is the case
9 IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Before we continue, the Chamber would like to move into private
13 [Private session]
11 Pages 2894-2895 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 Witness JF-005, first of all, I would like to remind you that the
13 solemn declaration you have given at the beginning of your testimony is
14 still binding upon you. Is that clear to you?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is clear.
16 Then, Mr. Jordash, are you ready to continue your
18 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes. If I could have a moment to just
19 move along the bench.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 You may proceed, Mr. Jordash.
22 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash: [Continued]
24 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.
25 A. Good afternoon.
1 Q. When Stankovic ordered you to join the MP unit, he also ordered
2 the remainder of your unit to join the Ozren Guard; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, that is correct. And we were reassigned to other units.
4 Q. So other members of your unit were assigned by Stankovic to other
5 units; is that correct?
6 A. We asked him to reassign us to other units. We asked for that to
7 be done. We had a conversation with him, where we asked to be reassigned
8 to other units.
9 Q. And he was responsible for assigning everybody to those other
10 units; is that correct?
11 A. In my case, it is correct. As for the others, I wouldn't know.
12 Q. Okay. Fair enough.
13 After the assignment -- after your assignment, Djuro Martic gave
14 you orders in relation to liberating the corridor; is that correct?
15 A. Yes. But other members were present as well, other members of
16 the unit that was at Ozren during the breach or the breakthrough of the
17 corridor in 1992.
18 Q. And they were receiving orders from Djuro Martic as well?
19 A. No, depending on the group where -- to which they belonged, there
20 would be other -- there would be various individuals who would be
21 responsible. So there wasn't just one responsible person, because there
22 were a number of units who were stationed there, not just one.
23 Q. And these units were all under the Ozren Brigade; is that
25 A. No. No, they were subordinated to Colonel Novica Simic - I think
1 he was a colonel at the time - and he was in charge of Operation
2 Corridor, and there were a few other officers who were in charge of this
4 Q. Were they -- all these officers you mentioned were part of the
5 Tactical Group Ozren?
6 A. No, they were part of Tactical Group Doboj.
7 Q. And that was ultimately under the command of Stankovic; is that
9 A. I think I was clear enough. I said that Major Stankovic was the
10 commander of the Tactical Group Ozren, and within the group itself,
11 Novica Simic was the person in charge. I think I was pretty clear on
12 that in my previous statement.
13 Q. Sorry to labour the point. Maybe you were clear. I just want to
14 make sure I'm clear.
15 Stankovic, then, is the top commander of these units that you
16 describe. Is that right?
17 A. Well, there -- we should mention the units that were there.
18 There were four Ozren brigades that were under the direct command of
19 Stankovic. There were three other brigades that were near Doboj and they
20 were subordinated directly to the Tactical Group Doboj. Again, we're
21 talking about May 1992, and about the entry into Doboj, in charge of
22 which was Bozovic, together with all the groups that had come from
23 other -- from elsewhere. So I can't say exactly what was going on,
24 because I was not in the command or operation centre.
25 Q. Well, who was in commander of the Tactical Group Doboj?
1 A. As far as I can recall, I believe it was Novica Simic at the
3 Q. And he answered to Stankovic. He took --
4 A. No. He probably answered to the General Staff. But here I'm
5 referring to another period, the second half of May 1992.
6 Q. Well, let's deal with the first half. Did Simic answer to
7 Stankovic in the first half?
8 A. I have no information to say either way.
9 Q. He was a member of JNA or -- or a TO; do you know that?
10 A. As far as I can recall, I believe he was a JNA member, but I'm
11 not certain. I think he was a member of the JNA.
12 Q. Okay. Thank you.
13 When you were in charge of -- sorry. When -- when -- no, I think
14 I don't need to ask that.
15 When you were working with the 1st Motorised Brigade you took
16 orders directly from Mladic; is that right? The 1st Motorised Brigade, I
17 should have said.
18 A. I did not work with the 1st Motorised Brigade. I was a member of
19 the 1st Motorised Brigade.
20 Q. Did you take your orders from Mladic?
21 A. No. We did not take our orders from Mladic. We took our orders
22 from Colonel Lazic, who was the commander of the 1st Guards Motorised
24 Q. And did Lazic take his orders from Mladic?
25 A. The 1st Guards Motorised Brigade was under the direct command of
1 the General Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.
2 Q. Which was commanded ultimately by Mladic; is that right?
3 A. Yes, that is right.
4 Q. And after you completed your work with the 1st Guards Motorised
5 Brigade, you joined the Doboj Brigade, which was a unit of the VRS; is
6 that correct?
7 A. Yes, that is correct.
8 Q. And you took your orders from which VRS person?
9 A. I can't recall at this point what the commander's name was. But
10 we had -- I'm sorry, I can't -- I'm just -- I can't recall right now. I
11 apologise. If I do remember -- recall the name, I will tell you.
12 Q. Thank you. The Tactical Group Ozren had another name before
13 becoming known as the Tactical Group Ozren. Can you recall what that
15 A. I can't recall. 17 years have elapsed. It's a lot of time, and
16 it's hard to remember every little detail.
17 Q. Do you recall that it did have a name before becoming the
18 Tactical Group Ozren? It existed and had another name; is that right?
19 A. There was a name for it, but I can't recall it.
20 Q. And did it consist of JNA unit along with TO unit before it
21 became known as the Tactical Group Ozren?
22 A. It's possible. But, as I said, I can't really remember the name
23 exactly. I can tell you what I know, but I can't tell you what I don't,
24 and I can't really claim or ascertain if I'm not certain.
25 Q. Can you confirm, though, it was under the command of Stankovic
1 before becoming the Tactical Group Ozren, or before becoming known as the
2 Tactical Group Ozren?
3 A. Yes, I can confirm that.
4 Q. And when it became the Tactical Group Ozren, it then, as you've
5 told us, it remained under Stankovic's command.
6 A. Yes.
7 [Defence counsel confer]
8 MR. JORDASH:
9 Q. Now, I want to refer you back now to evidence you gave on
10 Thursday last, and you told the Court that when you were in the JSN,
11 Dragan Lukic was in charge of the JSN?
12 Am I quoting your evidence correctly?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You also confirmed, on Thursday last, that Dragan Lukic was
15 directly subordinated to the Ozren Tactical Group at the time; is that
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And when the various groups, military groups, including the JSN
19 entered Doboj on the 3rd of May, everyone was under that command, the
20 Ozren Tactical Group. Isn't that correct?
21 A. No, they had a forward command post in Lipac.
22 Q. And who was in command there; do you know?
23 A. I don't know. I did not take orders from them at the time, so I
24 don't know.
25 Q. So are you suggesting the Ozren Tactical Group was also under the
1 command of the forward command post in Lipac?
2 A. No. That forward command post was used to enter Doboj.
3 Q. What do you mean by that, please?
4 A. A temporary command was there that was used to dispatch troops
5 and artillery to their respective positions when Doboj was being occupied
6 in 1992.
7 Q. So wouldn't that post have been under the command of Stankovic,
8 forward command post, a temporary post for the take-over of Doboj?
9 A. I know what we were told. That is, that in Lipac there was a
10 forward command post where orders and commands came from.
11 As to who was there, at the forward command post, is something I
12 cannot say, since I wasn't there. I only know what I had heard. I was
13 cautioned by the Bench not to say what I can't prove.
14 Q. Well, if you -- if you don't know, you don't know.
15 Let me return to this, then. You've told us that Stankovic was
16 in charge of the Tactical Group Ozren, and you told us that the Tactical
17 Group Ozren commanded Dragan Lukic, who was the commander of your group.
18 So that means, does it not, that you were commanded by Stankovic, you and
19 your group? Isn't that logically the case and wasn't that the case?
20 A. It is a very complex issue, in any case. In the course of these
21 few days I will try to get hold of a few documents which will prove the
22 contrary and who commanded what groups. I'm awaiting those documents.
23 Those people who were present, for the most part, were
24 subordinated to Bozovic, and some to Stankovic and to his operations
25 centre and command. Hence, it's a very complex issue for me to be able
1 to explain it all.
2 Q. But Stankovic didn't take orders from Bozovic, did he?
3 A. I don't know whether he did or not.
4 Q. And didn't, as you told us a moment ago, regard Bozovic as in
5 charge of the Ozren Tactical Group. Isn't that correct too?
6 A. Bozovic was not at the helm of the Ozren Tactical Group.
7 However, he did have his own group.
8 Q. But as you told us, you were answerable to the Ozren Tactical
9 Group so you were not part of Bozovic's group, by virtue of what you just
10 said. Is that not correct?
11 A. At the outset, we were. Later on, we were not. Later on, we
12 were answerable to the Ozren Tactical Group, still keeping contact with
13 some people who were under Bozovic though.
14 Q. Stankovic was responsible, wasn't he, for trying to bring Karaga
15 under control. When Karaga went independent. Is that correct?
16 A. One could say that he assisted in bringing him under control. It
17 was a local matter, of the local armed forces.
18 Q. Exactly. And when you were arrested and stayed in Mali Logor for
19 21 days, you were under Stankovic's detention, were you not?
20 A. Yes. Because there were -- there had been incidents in the
21 territory of Teslic
22 Q. And, as you've told us, Stankovic was -- sorry, I don't think you
23 have told us this. Was Stankovic responsible for bringing the Mice group
24 under control? Did he ever do that?
25 A. I don't know that.
1 Q. Stankovic was a close colleague of Minkovic [sic] who was
2 directly commanding the Mice paramilitary group; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, Milan Ninkovic, did command the Mice, Mice's group. I'm not
4 certain whether, at that time, Stankovic had already been appointed
5 defence minister of the RS. If he was the defence minister at the time,
6 then he was subordinated to him.
7 Q. Sorry, I think I asked you the question "Minkovic," and you
8 rightly corrected me and said "Ninkovic," with an N, so that was my
9 error. Thank you.
10 Now, you've told us that Bozovic left the region, I think, in
11 June or July of 1992. Which -- and you've also said in your statements
12 to the Prosecution that, after he left, he continued giving you orders
13 and you suggest he continued giving you orders for many years after that.
14 Can you tell the Court what orders you were given by Bozovic when
15 you were working in these various units under the VRS?
16 I'm asking the question because it's not in your statement. The
17 only order that you -- there was only one order you refer to in your
18 statement. You simply deal with it in a general way and say you were
19 receiving orders from Bozovic.
20 So, please, could you assist the Court and let us know what
21 orders you were receiving from Bozovic? If you want, can you go through
22 the years from 1992.
23 A. It is difficult for me to recall everything that happened between
24 1992 and today. We had some contacts with him which were rather
25 intensive until 1997 or 1998, more or less. Even today we still have
1 contact. Well, I don't know whether it is so today, but perhaps until
2 five or six years ago, there were contacts through intermediaries. I
3 can't recall every order, because a lot of time has elapsed, and I can't
4 even recall the events of the time in totality. Unfortunately, time took
5 its toll.
6 Q. Well, just give us some orders, a few orders that Bozovic was
7 giving you in your capacity -- as a person working for the VRS.
8 A. As I said, I cannot recall. It was a long time ago, and I don't
9 want to say things that I'm uncertain of. I would require some time to
10 recall that. I can't remember everything. It has been 17 years since
12 Q. Well, if you can't recall, then, there is no point in me
13 continuing to ask.
14 Could I suggest you cannot recall because you were not receiving
15 orders from Bozovic after he left the Doboj region? Could that be,
16 really, the basis for your loss of memory?
17 A. No, that is not the reason why. I don't want to speak about
18 things that I'm not 100 per cent certain of. I only speak about things
19 that I'm certain of.
20 As for the rest, that is something I do not wish to address. If
21 I cannot recall things, then it's better for me to say that I cannot than
22 to suggest, speculate or provide wrong information.
23 Q. Okay. Fair enough.
24 You did -- you have said in your statement that in 1992, after
25 Bozovic left, "he ordered us to expel all the people in a village."
1 Do you recall saying that to the Prosecution? We can turn to it
2 in a minute, if it helps. But I want to ask you if you recall saying
3 that Bozovic ordered you to expel all the people in a particular village?
4 MR. JORDASH: Paragraph 34 of the first statement, Your Honours,
5 so that Your Honours know where I'm referring to.
6 Q. Do you recall giving that evidence to the Prosecution?
7 A. Yes, Bukovicke Civcije.
8 Q. And what happened to the people who were expelled from that
9 village, according to you?
10 A. They were put on buses --
11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... sorry.
12 A. -- and transferred to the Federation. Although, by that time, it
13 still had not existed. In any case, they were transferred to the
14 Muslim-held territory. Whereas some of them were separated from the
16 Q. Who were separated from the rest?
17 A. Able-bodied men, I think.
18 Q. [Microphone not activated].
19 Sorry, what happened to them?
20 A. Some ended up in the collection centre at Usora. And some
21 ended -- well, I can only tell you what I had heard from others.
22 Although I do not wish to speak of things that I have no specific proof
23 or information to confirm it.
24 Q. How did you receive those orders from Bozovic, and what was the
25 nature of the order that you received? Let's just deal with the first
2 How did you receive the orders from Bozovic?
3 A. It was issued collectively to us. The platoon commanders went to
4 see him, to the command centre, where they received their orders, and
5 then in the field we implemented them, the orders that had been given to
7 Q. But this was after Bozovic had left, was it not?
8 A. No, that was before that. There were many operations which took
9 place before that, because the loyalty oath was a topical issue at the
10 time, the loyalty oath required by the Serb side.
11 Q. So who were you working for at the time this happened then? At
12 what stage was this?
13 A. At that stage, I was still with the Special Purpose Unit,
14 although we still kept receiving orders from different groups. It is a
15 confusing issue which I cannot explain, but there were orders coming from
16 the -- both the police system and the military system, depending on the
18 MR. JORDASH: Could I ask, please, for the -- for Exhibit 137 --
19 P137, please, to come onto the screen, and paragraph 34 of the B/C/S,
21 Paragraph, please, 34.
22 Q. Can you have a look at the first sentence, please.
23 "In 1992, after Radojica Bozovic left, he ordered us to expel all
24 the people in the village Bukovicke Civcije."
25 Does it say that?
1 A. Yes, it does. That's when Operation Corridor began, when there
2 was an attack from Bukovicke Civcije at the police check-point, which was
3 in the outskirts of the village.
4 Q. And didn't you say earlier today that you were receiving orders
5 from Djuro Martic during corridor operations?
6 A. At the time, at the time of Operation Corridor, depending on the
7 position one was, that's where orders came from. We received orders from
8 different sides. At the time, and in that location, where the police
9 check-point was, there were so many soldiers that at a certain point in
10 time, people simply didn't know who was asking for what and who wanted
11 what to be done.
12 Q. Or who was present. Isn't it right that you told the Prosecution
13 that Bozovic had left at the time that this operation to expel the people
14 in this village took place?
15 A. During Operation Corridor he could not have left, because the
16 corridor had not been opened. I think that operation began ...
17 Q. Did you tell the Prosecution that? Is that the explanation for
18 why it appears in your statement?
19 A. There must be a mistake in the statement, because I also had
20 certain other corrections which I made known to the Prosecutor. I even
21 think we discussed this particular paragraph, paragraph 34. There was a
22 number of things which were not clear.
23 Q. Well, that's right. I'll come to that. You also, I suggest,
24 told the Prosecution, at the time of your 2004 statement, that the
25 killings related to this crime had taken place at Ozren, as paragraph 34
2 Did you tell the Prosecution that in 2004?
3 A. I didn't put it that way. I tried to correct that and we do have
4 a correction of paragraph 34 on record.
5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... right, Mr. Witness, your
6 correction is -- it's at --
7 MR. JORDASH: Your Honours, Exhibit 138 -- P138, and it's at
8 paragraph 21.
9 Q. And now, five or six years later, you say that the killings took
10 place at the Usora camp. Is that your correction?
11 A. Yes, some of them.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hoffmann.
13 MR. HOFFMANN: I think -- I'm just objecting on -- on -- there
14 seems to be misquoting from the -- from the statement. I think there's
15 nothing that suggests that the witness says the killings took place at
16 Usora camp in Doboj.
17 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, you're right. I apologise. I should have
18 put it differently.
19 Q. The correction was that the people that were killed at
20 Mount Ozren
21 the substance of your correction?
22 A. The gist of my correction was that they had been detainees at the
23 collection centre in Usora.
24 Q. Okay. Thank you.
25 Now, I want to move to a different subject.
1 MR. JORDASH: Please, I could I have Exhibit P144 on the screen.
2 Q. I want to move quickly, please, Mr. Witness, and point out
3 certain things to you and ask you if you have any evidence to give.
4 Can you see the name on the top right of the document? This is a
5 questionnaire relating to Slobodan Vukasin Katanic.
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. Please, if you'd make a mental note of the name Vukasin.
8 We turn over, please, to page 3, and I want to have a look at the
9 information on wounding and treatment.
10 MR. JORDASH: Now can we go to page ...
11 Q. Can you see the title "Information on Wounding and Treatment"?
12 Do you see that? No?
13 MR. JORDASH: Can we turn to page 3, please, of the B/C/S.
14 It may not be page 3 then. It's page 3 of the English version,
15 and it ... yes, okay. There it is, I saw it then on the left-hand
16 screen, in English.
17 Could we find the equivalent page, please, of the B/C/S with
18 the -- I'm looking for the title "Information on Wounding and Treatment."
19 Q. Is it there on the screen, Mr. Witness? Can you help us out?
20 A. I can see it now.
21 Q. And it says on the left-hand column: Date and place of
22 enlistment, name of the unit, commander's name and rank, duty in the unit
23 and rank.
24 Do you see that?
25 A. Could the document please be enlarged so that I can read it?
1 Q. I think from what my Serbian colleagues say, it may be the next
2 page of the B/C/S. No, it's there. Thank you. Okay. It's the top
3 left-hand of the screen, please, Mr. Witness. Date and place of
4 enlistment, name of the unit, commander's name and rank, duty in the unit
5 and rank; do you see that?
6 A. Yes, I can see it. Poorly, but I can.
7 Q. Can you read out, please, the column to the right of that which
8 gives the detail of --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, do we have the corresponding English
10 page in front of us?
11 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, I don't think we do. Can we --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Take care that we do.
13 MR. JORDASH: Can we go, please, to page 3 of the English
14 version. Oh, sorry, it is page 3, just further -- no, it's not, it's
15 page 4.
16 MR. HOFFMANN: If I may assist, I think it's at the bottom of
17 page 3 in English.
18 MR. JORDASH:
19 Q. All right. Can you see that, Mr. Witness? I want you to read,
20 please, the -- what it says in the box entitled -- with date and place of
21 enlistment, name of the unit, and so on. What does it say to the right
22 of that?
23 A. It says: The 1st of May, in Doboj, Special Police. I can't see
24 what the next word is. Then in the second line: Police, Petrovo. And
25 then I can't say what it says.
1 MR. JORDASH: [Previous translation continues] ... be moved to
2 the left of the screen slightly, please. Thanks.
3 Q. Try again.
4 A. I can't. We would have to zoom in. I have difficulty reading
5 it. Otherwise, I can't see it clearly.
6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... and then perhaps I'll read
7 it and we can shorten things, because I'm running out of time.
8 Does it say --
9 A. Now can I see it, I can read it out.
10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
11 A. The 1st of May in Doboj, Special Police, special -- then I can't
12 say what it says. Police, Petrovo, Black Berets, Special Purposes Unit,
13 Radojica Bozovic, Lieutenant, and then the last line, Deputy Commander.
14 Q. So could I suggest to that you Slobodan Vukasin Katanic was a
15 deputy -- the deputy to Bozovic when Bozovic was in Doboj? Could that be
16 the Vuk you refer to?
17 A. It is possible. I only told you what I knew; whereas, we were
18 not supposed to ask much. Most of the people I knew, I knew by their
19 first name or nickname. I don't know too many last names.
20 As far as I know -- well, I really don't know what to say about
22 Q. Well, I suggest you do know that it was this man and he was a
23 local man who worked in the secondary school at -- had previously worked
24 as a teacher in the Brcko locality. Isn't that correct?
25 A. Are you trying to say that he used to be a teacher in the
1 municipality of Doboj or in Doboj itself? I can't see it clearly in the
3 Q. Well, I'm -- I'm going on what the document says, which -- at
4 page -- just above where we've just been looking. It says that at some
5 point he worked in the secondary school Vaso Pelagic in Brcko.
6 [Microphone not activated] -- this page. It might be the previous page
7 on the B/C/S.
8 A. I really don't know who worked as a teacher in Brcko in the
9 school, because here it says he worked in Brcko. I don't know that I
10 ever mentioned that I have ever been in any school in Brcko.
11 MR. JORDASH: Can I please ask for Exhibit P145, please.
12 The page I'm ... the page I'm interested in, please, is page 5 of
13 the English. The same section, information on wounding and medical
15 Q. Can you see -- can you see that, Mr. Witness?
16 Can you see the right-hand box again, 3rd of May, 1992, Bosansko
17 Petrovo Selo, Red Berets, currently Special Purposes Battalion, Bozovic.
18 Does that ring a bell?
19 A. Yes, can I see it.
20 Q. Does that ring a belt that Bozovic was the commander of units
21 based in Petrovo Selo, Bosansko Petrovo Selo, known as the Red Berets?
22 A. Yes, I remember, but you said that he was the commander of the
23 unit - let me see if I can quote that correctly - Petrovo police for
24 special purposes. And here it says: Bosansko Petrovo Selo, and I'm
25 quoting you.
1 MR. JORDASH: Could I ask, please, that we pull up on e-court
2 Defence document 1D91. And the ERN is 04154405.
3 And whilst that is being found, the front page of this document
4 that's coming onto e-court was not in our system for some reason so it
5 hasn't been uploaded. It -- and we haven't provided a draft English
6 translation. So with Your Honours' leave, I will hand a copy to the
7 witness and ask him to read it and confirm it. We've given a copy to the
8 Prosecution to confirm. And we have copies for Your Honours, although
9 it's, as I say, in B/C/S. It's a one-page document.
10 Whilst that is happening, perhaps ...
11 Q. Can you see that, Mr. Witness? Would you mind just reading that
12 out, please. The front of the page, what does it say across the middle?
13 A. Well, it is not very clear. I can only recognise the centre --
14 Security Services Centre Petrovo in ...
15 MR. JORDASH: Can I -- perhaps I shall move on to another subject
16 until this can be found and what I might do is simply ask for this to be
17 tendered since the witness -- it concerns Katanic, Slobodan and the
18 witness has indicated he doesn't -- here it is.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You want to tender this. What is this, at the
21 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, yes. It's -- if I may just quickly refer to
22 a page and then I would like to tender the heading, the front of the page
23 and the document up on the e-court.
24 Q. Mr. Witness, can you see the name Katanic, Slobodan. This is a
25 document which purports to be from this Republika Srpska MUP, sent to
1 Security Service Doboj, to the ministry, to the MUP Republika Srpska
3 Mr. Witness?
4 A. Yes, I am.
5 Q. And the section that is relevant at the moment is number one,
6 referring to Katanic, Slobodan, son of Vukasin, from Petrovo, born in
7 1958, professor of physical culture. He has worked as the professor in
8 Brcko. Later he was engaged to be the commander to train special units
9 in Ozren. He is now the commander of reserve police in SJB Petrovo.
10 Does any of that ring a bell to you?
11 A. Well, from what I know, this does seem familiar but I can't
12 really confirm. But I have to say, it doesn't say here Special Purpose
13 Unit. It still says Special Police, which is really undefined, just like
14 I said earlier. There is a bit of a misunderstanding here about the
15 name. I'm not sure, maybe I'm mistaken. Maybe this is misplaced.
16 Q. Well, thank you for that answer.
17 MR. JORDASH: I will ask for this to be tendered, Your Honours,
19 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that we have it MFI'd until we have a
20 translation of the first page.
21 MR. JORDASH: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, do I understand you well, that your
23 suggestion is that the Katanic, Slobodan, which is mentioned here is the
24 same as in the questionnaire?
25 MR. JORDASH: Yes, Your Honour, that is the inference we will ask
1 you to draw.
2 JUDGE ORIE: That despite the fact that the year of birth differs
3 two years?
4 MR. JORDASH: We're not suggesting that these documents are
5 accurate. For example, with the Black Beret on the last document, there
6 are mistakes throughout them, we will submit, and the date of birth, we
7 submit, is one of those mistakes. The profession --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Which one is the mistake?
9 MR. JORDASH: We don't know. One of them. But given the --
10 JUDGE ORIE: But wouldn't it be appropriate that if you suggest
11 that these are the same persons, that you at least share with the Chamber
12 apparent inconsistencies with the documents; or do you expect the Chamber
13 to go through them in full detail and then find out themselves what are
14 the matters which we need to pay specific attention to.
15 MR. JORDASH: Well, I thought that that would be subject to
16 argument later on from the Prosecution. It's our submission that they
17 are the same person. That the profession is the same, that the role
18 commanding special units is the same.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You would say you focus on what is consistent
20 and the Chamber will need to take a further look at it.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: But we first assign a number so that the document
24 will then be assigned.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D13, marked for identification,
1 Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. And you can inform the
3 Chamber once a translation has been uploaded, Mr. Jordash.
4 MR. JORDASH:
5 Q. Now, Mr. Witness, you claim to have worked for the JSO. Do you
6 receive a pension from the JSO?
7 A. Now, you mean? No, no, I don't receive a pension.
8 Q. You claim to have been present during the ceremony at Kula. But
9 did you see yourself on the screen at any point in that ceremony?
10 A. No, I didn't see my own image, no.
11 Q. You claim that you have a plaque awarded to you for your loyal
12 service, awarded from the Serbian DB. Where is it?
13 (redacted). But that is not a plaque, really,
14 it's just a paper which is a thank-you note, sort of. I believe that it
15 was actually issued to everyone. I think it was just for formality
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hoffmann.
18 MR. HOFFMANN: Could we please quickly go into closed session,
19 Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.
21 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
20 MR. JORDASH:
21 Q. Have you told the Prosecution about this piece of paper, this --
22 which would prove or go somewhere to proving your ex-status?
23 A. I can't remember whether I told them about it, but I will try to
24 obtain it as soon as possible and that will confirm my ex-status.
25 Q. Why haven't you tried so far, given you were going to give
1 evidence in this court, and that, as far as I can see, is the only
2 independent proof that you have produced of your status or that could you
4 A. Well, probably because it never occurred to me to do that, and I
5 didn't look for it. And during my interview with the Prosecution, it
6 never occurred to me that this is something that I could present to the
8 Q. You'll be able to send it to the Prosecution after you have given
9 evidence, will you, so that they can use it to establish who you are? Is
10 that something you can do?
11 A. Yes, of course, I can.
12 Q. Now, finally, Mr. Witness --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps the best is the communication to go through
14 VWS so that it reaches us and that it will be disclosed to both parties.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. JORDASH:
17 Q. I want to ask you finally about one subject, Mr. Witness, and
18 it's Exhibit P137, and it's paragraph 9.
19 MR. JORDASH: Can we have both the English and B/C/S, please.
20 Q. Paragraph 9.
21 MR. JORDASH: Can we have ...
22 Q. Paragraph 9. And it says at the beginning:
23 "I first learned that we were members of the Serbian DB in 1995.
24 We had been told that we were a JNA special unit."
25 Did you say that in 2004?
1 A. No. In fact, I did say -- say it, but not in so many words.
2 Because, at the time, as far as I know, the JNA did not exist.
3 Q. Well, did you say that you first learned that you were members of
4 the Serbian DB in 1995?
5 A. We did not hear that we were members of the Serbian DB in 1995,
6 but, rather, that the unit that had trained us, in fact, had its roots in
7 the DB, in the State Security Service.
8 Q. Could I suggest that you have not ever seen an order from
9 Jovica Stanisic concerning the events in Doboj, as you have, in 2009,
11 A. Well, you can claim whatever you please. But I know what I saw.
12 It's the same with you claiming that there was this unit of the Special
13 Police in Petrovo Selo, whereas documents point to something else. And
14 from the documents that I have proposed to hand over to the
15 Trial Chamber, I believe that other things can be seen as well, and then
16 we can claim, or disclaim, whether I did or did not see things.
17 Q. Well, you didn't mention seeing orders from Stanisic when you
18 were first interviewed in 2004, did you? Can you confirm that?
19 A. No. I didn't say I remember there was a name, whether this was
20 an order or there was just a sheet of paper which was headed
21 "Information." I don't know, because too much time has passed, and I
22 need more time in order to obtain all those documents that could prove
23 that. Because many documents have been destroyed and others have been
24 misplaced so you actually have to go searching for documents one by one.
25 Q. Can you try to keep your answer to the question.
1 The first time you mentioned Stanisic and orders or seeing orders
2 from Stanisic was in 2008 or 2009, wasn't it?
3 A. No, that is not so. I actually saw a piece of paper and I
4 assume -- now whether these were orders or not, I don't know. But there
5 was his name there, as far as I can recall. But I'm not sure. I assume
6 that it was his name on that piece of paper, as far as can I recall, but
7 I cannot be 100 per cent certain. In other words, whether I saw an order
8 with which I never had any context, so I couldn't claim that, but -- and
9 seeing a piece of paper and a name on it, I could have seen that, and I
10 remember that there was mention made of that name.
11 So can I claim that with certainty. Yes, I did see it.
12 Q. So you saw a piece of paper with a name on it and you assumed
13 that it was Stanisic. Is that what you just said?
14 A. No, I saw the name, the first and last name, that sounds like
15 this name, and I'm sure that that was a similar name, and what the
16 context of that document was, I really don't know. And as I said, I
17 can't recall it, because many years -- 17 years have passed. But I will
18 try to get hold of that paper, and if I do, I will forward it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Looking at the last two minutes, I see that there's
20 a bit confusion on when something was first mentioned and what the
21 witness recalls.
22 Let's try to clearly separate that. I mean, the matter started
23 with: What did you say in 2004; I suggest that it was for the first time
24 in 2008, 2009, that you saw this -- a repetitious mixing up of first
25 mentioning a certain matter and what the -- what the witness remembered,
1 either in 2004, or in 2008, or now.
2 I just want to put that on the record, that there's a -- creating
3 at least some confusion.
4 MR. JORDASH:
5 Q. Mr. Witness, let me just ...
6 You have not mentioned -- you didn't mention to the Prosecution
7 anything about seeing pieces of paper with Stanisic's name on it until
8 2008 or 2009, did you? You didn't make mention of it in your 2004
10 A. Do you know what 17 years mean? I can remember some things but
11 others I can't. But, yes, that's correct.
12 Q. And the truth is that what happened was that you heard rumours
13 during your time in Doboj that the Serbian DB was involved; and it was
14 just that, rumours, wasn't it?
15 A. Well, all right, if that's what you're claiming. Although that
16 would not be my position.
17 Q. And paragraph 9 of the exhibit, P137, where you say:
18 "We heard rumours about it before that ..."
19 Before 1995, was the truthful account. It was rumours, wasn't
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, now, again, before that, is before
22 1995. Let's be clear what is statement given 2004, what is later
23 statements what we hear today, and if to say, you heard about this
24 rumours, that's clearly in the context to be understood as that before he
25 learned as -- at least the statement reads he learned something in 1995,
1 that prior to that, he was aware of rumours.
2 Let's try to get things chronologically, what happened when.
3 This is prior to learning something in 1995. That's at least how the
4 statement reads. And if you put the statement to the witness, then it
5 should be -- it should clarify rather than confuse?
6 MR. JORDASH: May I ask for a break, Your Honour -- may I ask for
7 a break? I'm actually feeling really unwell and a break would do me --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
9 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- apart from -- Mr. Jordash, I'm sorry that you do
11 not feel well.
12 MR. JORDASH: Yeah.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And apart from that, it is for your client we would
14 have sessions of 75 minutes so I was about to see when you would stop.
15 We'll have a break, and we will resume at ten minutes past 4.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
19 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, I was wondering with Your Honours
20 leave, I could stop now and leave the matter of clarification to my
21 learned friend for Mr. Simatovic. If -- I could then come back to it, if
22 Your Honour is not satisfied.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand, therefore, that do you not
24 feel well yet. This is agreeable so that Mr. Knoops will be here with us
25 when the cross-examination by the Simatovic Defence will be conducted.
1 MR. JORDASH: Yes, I remain for a while and see how I go, but
2 later on. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We leave it to you, and if it causes insurmountable
4 problems then, of course, the Chamber would like to be informed.
5 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. This, then, means that this,
7 as matters stand now, concludes the examination-in-chief -- the
8 cross-examination by the Stanisic Defence. Who is it, Mr. Bakrac, will
9 it be you, or will it be Mr. Petrovic who cross-examines the witness?
10 Apparently Mr. Petrovic.
11 Witness JF-005, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Petrovic.
12 Mr. Petrovic is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. I will have a few
17 questions to put to you.
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we first and foremost move
19 into private session.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
21 [Private session]
11 Pages 2925-2930 redacted.
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
23 Mr. Petrovic, you may proceed.
24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Witness, could you please tell us, just in a few sentence, could
1 you describe the camp at Ozren where you went for training? Just in a
2 few words, how many buildings, and what it looked like. Be brief.
3 A. Where we were accommodated there was a building, and we were
4 trained in the use of weapons --
5 Q. Excuse me for interrupting. All I'm asking you about is what the
6 camp itself looked like. I'm not asking about the training that you were
7 put through.
8 A. Well, there was a facility there - I think the building had about
9 three to four
10 Q. What type of facility was it?
11 A. I don't know what purposes it served before that. Later on, I
12 heard that it was used as a tourist hotel or a hostel.
13 Q. And you were accommodated there?
14 A. Yes, a number of us were accommodated there.
15 Q. Well, my question is about you yourself. So you said that you
16 yourself were accommodated and slept in this building, which had two or
17 three floors, as you said.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Tell us, please, how many buildings were there in that -- on that
21 A. Well, there were, I believe, three buildings. One of them was
22 larger and the other two were smaller buildings.
23 Q. And you had your quarters in this larger building; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What was -- what were the two other -- the smaller buildings,
1 what purpose did they serve?
2 A. Well, one of them was a weapons depot of sorts. We left our
3 weapons there. And as for the third building, I really didn't know what
4 it was, nor were there any men accommodated there.
5 Q. So, in other words, you would leave your weapons at the depot
6 once you returned from training.
7 A. No. We had our weapons with us all the time, but the additional
8 weapons that we received, we would leave it at the depot. It was a sort
9 of warehouse.
10 Q. All right. Thank you. Could you now tell us, please, where was
11 Bozovic accommodated? Where were his sleeping quarters?
12 A. I don't know where because he wasn't with us, so I can't really
14 Q. But do you know where his offices were, where some sort of
15 command was?
16 A. Well, at that time, no, I don't know where the headquarters were.
17 We underwent training there. We went through various courses. I don't
18 know where his offices were. And later on, we had dealings and we had
19 training at the Ministry of Defence in Doboj.
20 Q. Please just answer my questions. And please also make pauses
21 between question and answer, and answer and question, and let's be
22 careful not to overlap so that everyone can do their job.
23 So you do not know where Bozovic's headquarters were or his
24 command was. Did you have any kind of pass?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What kind of pass was it?
2 A. We had a sort of temporary ID or pass which we could use to move
4 Q. Well, I'm asking about a pass to this camp itself.
5 A. No, we didn't have any kind of pass for the camp.
6 Q. In two words, could you describe what the training consisted of,
7 in one -- on any given day, how did it begin and how did it start?
8 A. Well, in the morning, when we get up, we would go running. Then
9 we had tactical training. We used our weapons. So that's what a typical
10 day would look like.
11 Q. And what type of skills were you trained in and did you learn at
12 the time?
13 A. Well, the most important skill that I learned was topography, but
14 I can't tell you what it was that I really liked, what type of training
15 at the time, but we had topography. We had combat skills and
16 especially --
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last words
18 that the witness said.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness please repeat his last words which
20 were not caught by the interpreter.
21 You said: But I can't tell you -- I can't tell what you -- it is
22 with a that I really liked what.
23 Could you please repeat those -- the last part of your sentence.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly. Well, I said mines and
25 explosives, explosive devices.
1 Q. Please tell us, the mine and explosive devices, talking about
2 that, what exactly did you learn? How were you to handle those?
3 A. Well, we learned how to mount and defuse mines.
4 Q. Very well. Tell us, please, could you say something about the
5 discipline at the camp?
6 A. Well, it was very strict. And in my view, that was correct, and
7 that's -- that was proper, and that's how discipline should be.
8 Q. I suppose that you -- when you -- as you went through training,
9 no one ever instructed you to commit war crimes or anything similar?
10 A. No, quite the contrary. We were taught how to properly use our
11 weapons. So, yes, I can say that nobody ever taught us or instructed us
12 to commit any crimes.
13 Q. Please tell us, you said that the discipline was very strict,
14 that the regime was rigorous. I assume that for all of you who attended
15 this course, you were not really in a position to socialise with Bozovic,
16 to meet with him in some sort of informal setting, have a drink or so on.
17 I suppose that was really not an option.
18 A. No, that wasn't an option, and I -- I never actually was present
19 or ever witnessed anything like that. So, no, that couldn't -- that was
20 out of the question.
21 Q. I can further deduce from what you said that you were not really
22 in a position to monitor Bozovic's activities, who he met, whom he had
23 contacts with, and exchanged information. So just tell us about what you
24 know and if you ever heard of anything.
25 So just what you know.
1 A. All right. Well, me personally, I was not in a position to
2 monitor Bozovic's activities, nor could I ever see or observe what -- or
3 from whom he received any communications or dispatches.
4 Q. Tell us, then, please, how it is that in your statement - and
5 that's document P137 - you state the following, and I'm referring to
6 paragraph 41:
7 "I often heard Rajo Bozovic speaking with people from Belgrade
8 when he stayed in Doboj and he often addressed them using the polite
9 form. I know it was Belgrade
10 So is this incorrectly noted here as to what you could remember?
11 A. No, it is correct. I could see the number that he was dialing,
12 and I wasn't the only one because we were all concerned about what would
13 happen with the local population.
14 Q. Well, please, you tell us about yourself. When and where did you
15 see Rajo Bozovic dialing a number in Belgrade?
16 A. At the police staying in Doboj.
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the counsel. The
18 microphone was off.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, your microphone was off when you did
20 put the question. Would you please repeat it so that it can be
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] My question was: What was the
23 number that he dialled? And the witness understood my question in B/C/S,
24 so he replied.
25 And my question was: What the number that he dialled?
1 JUDGE ORIE: But then we would like to hear the answer.
2 Could you repeat your answer.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.
4 I saw that he dialled a number beginning with 011, but I can't
5 recall the number. I remember, because this area code, 011, was the area
6 code for Belgrade
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. But a few moments ago, you told us you weren't in a position to
9 see ever who it was that Bozovic called or had contacts with and how he
10 communicated. You just said so two minutes ago.
11 A. Well, I don't know who it was that he called and who -- whom he
12 contacted, and I couldn't hear the other side answering or talking. So I
13 observed this only in passing. I don't know whom he talked with, but I
14 did see the area code that he dialled. But as for who it was that he
15 called, I really don't know. I didn't see, nor do I have any
17 Q. Well, maybe it was a private call, a private phone call.
18 A. That's possible. That is why I stressed here that he used the
19 polite form.
20 Q. Tell us, please, you spent 12 days in training there, correct, in
22 A. No. We had some 15 days of training, and then a few additional
23 days. And then, later on, we underwent some training just as we went, in
25 Q. Well, I don't understand your statement. You say that on the
1 20th of April your training began, and that on the 3rd of May already,
2 the attack on Doboj was launched.
3 A. That's correct. That was about 13 days. Then we went down from
4 Mount Ozren
5 days that we underwent training on. I believe this was while we were in
6 Ozren. And then on 5th and 6th of May, on the 6th of May, the mopping-up
7 operation began.
8 Q. Well, I'm asking you about your training. You said that your
9 training began on the 23rd and it ended on the 3rd.
10 A. Well, it began on 23rd but it didn't end on the 3rd. We -- on
11 the 3rd we were sent to an assignment. We were supposed to man
12 check-points, and then we returned back to Ozren and then spent two or
13 three more days to complete our train.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, may I also invite you to not only ask
22 the witness to make the pauses but make them yourself as well.
23 Mr. Hoffmann, you were on your feet.
24 MR. HOFFMANN: I would ask that we please go quickly into closed
25 session once more.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
2 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Unless, Mr. Petrovic, you think we should stay for a
17 while in private session.
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please
19 remain in private session so that we can clarify this. And I apologise
20 if I inadvertently caused something to be disclosed, but I would
21 appreciate it if we remained in closed -- in private session.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We remain in private session for a while.
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 2940-2950 redacted.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Witness, I would just like to remind you. My question to you
21 was: Was -- did the person you saw then have short hair, and that was on
22 page 57, line 2. And I believe that your answer was yes.
23 A. Well, what do you mean by "short hair"? It could be two or five,
24 six centimetres long. If you say -- when I think of long hair, I mean
25 long hair.
1 THE INTERPRETER: The counsel did not turn on his microphone.
2 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreters tell us that you had not turned on
3 your microphone in the last question, Mr. Petrovic.
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. The
5 error is mine. But I am trying to make sure that the witness's voice
6 would not be heard. But he tries to answer -- he is quick in his
7 answers, and that is the reason why I failed to actually turn on the
8 microphone at the very same moment when my colleague begins speaking. I
10 Q. The last question to the witness was: Did this person that the
11 witness had seen, did he look like Simatovic, as we see him here today?
12 Could the witness please give his answer?
13 A. Well, he does look like him. I can't say it is his him. But he
14 does look like him and he did have -- his hair was a bit longer.
15 Q. In 1995, you said that you were in Fruska Gora. Could you tell
16 us where in Fruska Gora were you?
17 A. Well, we were stationed, I can't remember exactly the site, but
18 we were quartered in a building where we spent some two or three days and
19 then we went back. Because, in those days, there was an issue about
20 people who hailed from Bosnia and Herzegovina. They were actually
21 pressured to go back, to return to their units, so I can't recall. But
22 it was close to that.
23 Q. Do you recall what town or what village this was in?
24 A. Well, no, I really have difficulty remembering place names.
25 Q. Could you tell us what this building looked like?
1 A. Well, it was just a house where we were accommodated.
2 Q. Please tell us something about Teslic.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What do you know about the events in Teslic?
5 A. Well, I'll start from the beginning. Would you want me to start
6 from the beginning, from the first moment when we received the
7 information and then on?
8 Q. Well -- please tell us what about what you know, what happened
9 there and what was going on.
10 A. Well, as far as I know, there was Karaga's group, in Teslic, and
11 they were actually expelling the non-Serb population, but then a problem
12 arose when they began taking valuables from the Serbs in the area.
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the counsel's
15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness JF-005, if counsel makes a pause in order to
16 put his next question to you, then it's better to wait for his next
17 question rather than to continue your answer after a moment of silence.
18 Your next question was, Mr. Petrovic.
19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. How long -- how much time did Karaga's group spend in Teslic?
21 How long did they stay there?
22 A. As far as I know, and as far as we knew, they were there up to
23 seven days prior to our arrival in Teslic. As far as I can recall. It's
24 possible that they stayed there longer, but I don't have any information
25 to that effect.
1 Q. Do you know who Ljubisa Trcivic [phoen] is?
2 A. It sounds familiar but I can't tell you off the top of my head.
3 Q. Do you know who Dobrivoje Culibrk [Realtime transcript read in
4 error "Dobriboj Tulovic"] is?
5 A. That, too, sounds familiar. I can't recall off the cuff.
6 Q. Do you know who Milan Savic is?
7 A. That name does not sounds familiar.
8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I asked the witness,
9 on page 60, line 11, I asked him if he knew the name -- who Dobrivoje
10 Culibrk is, and I assume that this will be corrected in the transcript
11 later on.
12 Q. So you don't know any of these men. Do you know who Ranko Sljuka
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Do you know who Rodoljub Sljivic is?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Do you know whether the last two men, Sljivic and Sljuka, were in
18 Teslic at the time in question?
19 A. Well, I don't know. But I do know that they were members of the
20 Mice, as far as I can recall.
21 Q. Do you know who called Karaga to Teslic?
22 A. No, I don't.
23 Q. If I were to tell you that Dobrivoje Culibrk, Deputy Chief of the
24 National Security Service in Doboj, invited Karaga to Teslic, would you
25 accept that?
1 A. Could you please just repeat the function that he was on?
2 Q. The Deputy Chief of National Security Service in Doboj.
3 A. State Security or National Security?
4 Q. Well, national or state?
5 A. Well, are we now in open or closed session?
6 Q. We are in open session but it is irrelevant.
7 A. Well, as far as I recall, if I'm not mistaken, Marko Mihetic
8 [phoen] was the Deputy Chief of State Security, and he was in charge of
9 sector 2, if I'm not mistaken.
10 Q. My question to you was: Is it possible, do you allow for the
11 possibility that Culibrk was actually the person who invited Karaga to
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. Who did you go with to Teslic? Who was in the group, together
15 with you, who went to Teslic?
16 A. Well, as far as I know, there were four or five of us in the
17 group. That was the standard composition of the group.
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please move to
19 private session, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, Mr. Petrovic, I'm looking at the
21 clock. We had another session of a little bit over 75 minutes.
22 Therefore, I'd rather first have the break.
23 Mr. Petrovic, could you give us an indication as to how much more
24 time would you need?
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is difficult to
1 give you an exact estimate, but we will probably need an extra half-hour
2 tomorrow during the first session, and I hope that would be it. And I
3 will try to trim down my questions as much as I can. Of course, if you
4 allow me, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Which would mean that you would need another one
6 hour and a half.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hoffmann, the next witness takes how much time
10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I might answer that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. GROOME: The witness will take an hour and a half.
13 JUDGE ORIE: An hour and a half.
14 How much time would you need for the cross-examination of the
15 next witness? Mr. Knoops, perhaps you ...
16 MR. KNOOPS: Approximately half an hour, 40 minutes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Half an hour, 40 minutes. And the --
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The same, Your Honours. Not more
19 than 30 to 45 minutes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Under those circumstances, and having looked at
21 the -- the next witness will be viva voce, isn't it?
22 MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 Half an hour, 40 minutes would be half of a session. One hour
25 and a half for the Prosecution; then 30 to 40 minutes would be half a
1 session. 30 to 40 minutes, that would be, all together, approximately
2 two sessions.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, you are invited to focus on the most
5 important issues. We'll then see how that develops. Level of relevance,
6 importance, will then be assessed by the Chamber. You're urged to see
7 whether you can reorganise your cross-examination in such a way that we
8 could finish today.
9 We will consider whether we'll grant you some additional time,
10 and that would certainly not be more than half an hour, if any time at
11 all. So, therefore, you're invited to -- to achieve this.
12 As matters stand now, will there be a lot of re-examination,
13 Mr. Hoffmann?
14 MR. HOFFMANN: I would not expect more than, maybe ten or
15 15 minutes at the -- at the moment.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which, added to the time -- what we want to
17 avoid is that either this witness or the next witness has to remain for
18 many, many days for just a very small portion. And the Chamber considers
19 that it should be possible, in view of the subject matter, the way in
20 which the examination takes place until now, that we would be able to
21 finish -- to conclude the testimony of this witness and the next witness
22 together by tomorrow, the end of the session.
23 Again -- and I emphasise that it is always difficult to know
24 exactly what the witness is going to say, but, at least, Mr. Petrovic,
25 you'll save some time by switching on your microphone and but not putting
1 a question which you then have to repeat because you started that
2 question before the translation of the previous answer was given by the
4 We'll have a break, and we will resume at 6.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 5.34 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 6.05 p.m.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may, I need a
8 moment of your time, and it may be of assistance in your ruling
9 concerning the witness for tomorrow.
10 We checked it with our client, and I don't think I'll need more
11 than 30 minutes for the next witness.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that information, Mr. Bakrac.
13 Yes, we do not save a lot, but you said 30 to 45 minutes, but,
14 okay, we now know that at least it's 30 and not 45.
15 Mr. Petrovic, are you ready to proceed?
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I am, Your Honour. Thank
18 Let's move into private session, please, to complete our
19 discussion we began just before the break.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
21 [Private session]
11 Pages 2959-2968 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated]. We're in open
18 session, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Your microphone was not
20 activated. But I heard you say: "We're in open session, Your Honours."
21 That's on the record. Thank you.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Witness, I asked you about the camp at Tara. What do you know
25 about it; where is that -- where was that camp?
1 A. Well, we were brought to a spot not far from Bajina Basta. We
2 stayed in the woods where there was a virtual, let's call it that,
3 training centre. I can't tell you for certain who this camp belonged to
4 or who it was run by. I couldn't really say. We didn't see any of
5 the --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last
7 answer, because it wasn't clear.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was in 1995 or 1996.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the last portion of your last
10 answer. I'll start reading:
11 "I can't tell you for certain who this camp belonged to or who it
12 was run by. I couldn't really say. We didn't see" --
13 And then what were your remaining words?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We didn't see any of the people who
15 had been with us earlier.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. How many training camps were there on Mount Tara
19 of the river Tara
20 A. I really don't know what the number was or how many of them there
22 Q. So you only know of this one camp?
23 A. Yes, where we were billeted.
24 Q. Near Bajina Basta?
25 A. Yes, not far from Bajina Basta.
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the question.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It looked like the camp at
3 Rijecani. It was similar. There were tents, and I'm mentioning Rijecani
4 because it was similar to this camp.
5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please tell me ...
6 JUDGE ORIE: The last question was missed by the interpreter.
7 Now, I take it that you asked him to describe the one camp the witness
8 talked about.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: But could you -- could you please make that little
11 pause, which avoids that we have to intervene again and again.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. But
14 because of the time constraints, I'm trying to be as efficient as
15 possible and to save as much time as I can, but I will do my best to make
16 the pause.
17 Q. Witness, all you know about Tara is that one camp with tents that
18 you've described.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Tell me, then, how it is that in your statement - and you said
21 that you have read it carefully - your 1999 statement, P138, reads as
22 follows, and that's in paragraph 22. P138:
23 "The camp at the Tara
24 Half of them were in Serbia
25 half was in Montenegro
1 How did this find way into your statement?
2 A. Well, that was the explanation that we were given at the camp,
3 that there were other locations, but I only mentioned the one that I knew
5 Q. You were sent -- you were sent for some special training
6 somewhere. Who sent you where and when? Could you please tell us.
7 A. What special training are you referring to?
8 Q. Well, it says in your statement here that you were trained for
9 computer literacy. What kind of training was this, what kinds of course
10 was this and who sent you there?
11 A. Well, we were then with this man I knew well, Rajo Bozovic, who
12 sent there -- who was with Rajo Bozovic, who sent us there to be trained
13 in computers, and I received a certificate at the end of this course.
14 Q. So if I understood you properly, you knew a man --
15 A. I did not know a man. I was -- there was a man who was with him
16 and who told us that in his conversation with Bozovic this is what he was
18 Q. What exactly was he told?
19 A. Well, that we should report at the RRK Informatika, and that we
20 will attend a type of course there.
21 Q. What was the name of the person who told you that, or do you want
22 to us move to private session?
23 A. Well, if you want me to tell you the name, please, let's move to
24 private session.
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please move to private
1 session, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
3 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
15 Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Why were you sent to attend this course, this computer course,
18 and what does that have to do with your overall involvement?
19 A. I don't know. I just know that I completed this course.
20 Q. Where did you attend this course?
21 A. At RRK Informatika.
22 Q. Where is that?
23 A. In Belgrade
24 Q. Where exactly; can you tell us?
25 A. I don't know the street name. Just a moment, I'll try to recall
1 the name.
2 I can't remember the street address. I knew it, but I can't
3 recall it now.
4 Q. What part of the city was it in?
5 A. Between Dorcol and -- in that area, approximately.
6 Q. What did you learn at that course?
7 A. Well, a lot.
8 Q. Well, try and tell us some of it.
9 A. Well, the use of Office. Then the ability to create programmes
10 in the COBOL language and so on.
11 Q. Was this a private school that you attended?
12 A. Well, I can't tell you, really. We did have private classes, but
13 I can't really say with certainty.
14 Q. Did you receive any pay in the course of this?
15 A. Yes, we did. We were remunerated.
16 Q. How?
17 A. Well, for the most part, we received cash.
18 Q. Where was it paid out to you?
19 A. Well, that would depend. From/to.
20 Q. Well, where were you given this money? Would someone bring it to
21 you at home, or in Informatika?
22 A. For the most part we were paid out at Doboj or wherever we
23 happened to be. Some people even received money at the Institute for
24 State Security.
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] If you bear with me, I need to
1 check something.
2 Q. Where did you get the money? In Doboj for the most part?
3 A. No, not in Doboj. In Belgrade
4 Q. Where did you receive the money personally?
5 A. Depending on where we were in the course, they would come in the
6 evening to pay us, and some people went to the Institute for State
8 Q. Witness JF-005, where did you receive the money?
9 A. I was explaining you.
10 Q. Once the classes at Dorcol were finished?
11 A. Occasionally.
12 Q. Is that it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 In P137, paragraph 43 --
16 A. Can I see that?
17 Q. Yes.
18 "During the course, I received remuneration from the Serbian
19 Ministry of the Interior in cash. I went to the financial department of
20 the DB to get the money."
21 A. I told you now what I had told at that time.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Petrovic's mic was off.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Institute for State Security.
24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Were you ever --
1 Let's try it this way. During the time we're discussing, 1992
2 to, say, 1999, where was the seat of the State Security Service?
3 A. I know where the Institute for State Security was.
4 Q. Did you ever go to the seat of the State Security of Serbia?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Where did you go then?
7 A. To the Institute for State Security.
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Who did you go to see there?
11 A. There was a conversation with this person, although I cannot tell
12 you that person's name anymore. But I can tell you how we got there.
13 Q. I want to know who you saw in the seat of the State Security.
14 You told me where you went, and now you tell me what office. Who was in
15 that office?
16 A. I cannot recall the last name of the person. I was taken there,
17 and I can describe to you where the office is.
18 Q. Please do.
19 A. As you enter the parking lot of the institute, there is a
20 building just in front of the parking lot, and there's one on the side.
21 They're perpendicular to each other. We entered the first one, to the
22 offices on the right-hand side.
23 Q. What you're telling me is from 1995, among other years; correct?
24 A. No. I think it was in 2000.
25 Q. Before 2000, you never went to any building which would be the
1 seat of the State Security Service or the Institute for State Security?
2 A. I went to other institutions and offices of the state security in
3 the Republika Srpska but not in Serbia
4 Q. After 2000, who did you go there with, to visit the institute?
5 A. That person is in direct relation to me, so could we please go
6 into private session.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Petrovic's mic was off.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
9 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. If I understand your question [as interpreted] correctly, before
21 2000, you were never in the seat of the State Security or at the
22 institute, but you visited some other institutions in the RS.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Therefore, I conclude that you don't know where Mr. Simatovic's
25 office was.
1 A. I don't.
2 Q. Or, say, Bozovic's office.
3 A. I don't. I was only told that they were in the building that was
4 before or in front of the parking lot, although I don't know where
6 Q. In your testimony, you said that, between 1995 and 2001, you were
7 a member of the Special Operations Unit; correct?
8 A. We were constantly being told that, and all the people who had
9 been there remained with the unit.
10 Q. I don't understand. So you're not certain whether you were a
11 member of the Special Operations Unit?
12 A. We were all as part of a reserve force, if I can call it that.
13 Q. Can you corroborate what you're saying? Do you have any
14 documents to prove that?
15 A. I could get a hold of a few documents and I would be able to hand
16 it over to the Tribunal in time.
17 Q. And the Prosecutor never asked for any such -- such a document
18 which would confirm your participation in that unit?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Never?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you have an ID?
23 A. I said I did.
24 Q. I mean the Special Operations Unit.
25 A. No, no, not for that one. We didn't.
1 Q. What was your relationship with the unit? Were you kept
2 anywhere? What reflected your status?
3 A. What reflected our status? They maintained contact with us, in
4 case we needed to be reactivated. We were all there. They had contact
5 with all of us.
6 Q. Did you ever go to a base of the units for special operations?
7 A. Only in Kula.
8 Q. Where did the unit have its other bases?
9 A. In Belgrade
10 Q. When did you go to Kula for the first time?
11 A. It's hard to say. 1997.
12 Q. How many times?
13 A. Only twice.
14 Q. For how long?
15 A. The first time around, we were there for a couple of hours. The
16 second time, a bit longer.
17 Q. How much longer?
18 A. Four, four and a half hours.
19 Q. What did you do the first time?
20 A. We just went there to see, with some other active members of the
21 Special Operations Unit.
22 Q. And the second time?
23 A. We were just invited to a celebration concerning the units.
24 Q. Is it at the same time when President Milosevic was there?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. I presume it was an important event.
2 A. I think it was a very important event.
3 Q. Something difficult to forget, right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In 2004, why did you not say to the OTP investigators that you
6 attended such an important ceremony, such as the unit celebration
7 ceremony that they asked you about?
8 A. They did not ask me about that on that occasion.
9 Q. I'm asking you a different thing. How is it possible that no one
10 asked you whether you were in Kula or in a base, and when, and on what
12 A. I can't answer that. You have to put that question to them.
13 Q. I will. I'll tell you the following. They did ask you, in
14 para -- it's P137, para 54.
15 A. Can I see that?
16 Q. Paragraph 54, P137. It says:
17 "I was present once while Milosevic was there. It was in 1997.
18 He came to Kula, late in the evening, to have a meeting with Frenki and
19 Jovica Stanisic."
20 A. That's incorrect.
21 Q. "They thought Kula was the safest area in the whole of the
23 A. That is incorrect. It is wrongly formulated.
24 JUDGE ORIE: What exactly is wrong? That's unclear to me.
25 Didn't he come? Didn't he meet with Mr. Stanisic, or Mr. Simatovic? Is
1 Kula not the safest place to meet?
2 What was wrong?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The period when they met is
5 JUDGE ORIE: You say it was not in 1997.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. It wasn't in the evening. The
7 time of day was wrong.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And the year was?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1997.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. When did you see the recording of the ceremony in Kula for the
14 first time, and who showed it to you?
15 A. I saw parts of the footage before, and the whole footage only
16 here, at the Tribunal.
17 Q. My question is: When did you see the footage of the ceremony in
18 Kula for the first time?
19 A. I just told you. I saw parts of it before. I saw the whole
20 footage when I arrived in -- at the Tribunal. The whole footage.
21 Q. I put it to you that you changed your statement after having seen
22 the recording; correct?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you tell my learned friend Mr. Hoffmann that you attended the
25 ceremony in 2008?
1 A. No. In 2008, I was not in Serbia
2 Q. We're not on the same page. When Mr. Hoffmann discussed this in
3 2008 with you, did you tell him that you attended a ceremony in Kula?
4 A. I did.
5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 2D3 put on
6 the screen. It is a draft statement compiled by Mr. Hoffmann after his
7 interview with this witness in 2008, para 30.
8 Paragraph 30, please.
9 Q. It says:
10 "I was shown a footage of camp Kula from May 1997. I recognise
11 many people appearing on the footage."
12 Is it possible that Mr. Hoffmann, on that occasion, did not take
13 note of your attendance of that ceremony?
14 A. That is possible. Because he showed me the footage and asked me
15 whether I recognised anyone.
16 Q. And he didn't ask you if you were there, and you didn't tell him?
17 A. I didn't tell him I was there.
18 Q. Thank you. Because he didn't ask you?
19 A. I said I wasn't there and such a question was not put to me.
20 Q. Thank you. When were you asked that for the first time, if you
21 were in Kula? When did Mr. Hoffmann or the other five or six
22 investigators who spoke with you ask you that for the first time?
23 A. I cannot recall.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, it is five minutes to 7.00. Could you
1 give us an idea as to where you are because I would like to read a
2 decision as well. But we'll refrain from doing it if you think you could
3 finish and conclude in the next five minutes.
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I cannot, not in the
5 next five minutes. But I will, indeed, restrict myself to a very short
6 period of time, and I will meet your instructions in full.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would it -- a good guess if I would say that
8 you need another 15 minutes tomorrow? Is that ...
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I will do my utmost so that it
10 happens that way.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I would like to already excuse the
12 witness for today and then read the decision.
13 Witness JF-005, we'd like to see you back tomorrow, quarter past
14 2.00, in this courtroom. It will not take very long tomorrow.
15 I again instruct you not to speak with anyone, not to, in any
16 other way communicate with anyone, also if you think -- if you think you
17 need to find other material - although, first of all, no one asked for
18 it, and, second, already that material is in the hands of Prosecution -
19 then it would be wiser if you seek through Victims and Witness Section
20 that you seek the approval of the Chamber first, explaining what it is
21 that you so urgently need to ask for. We'd like to see your e-mails
22 tomorrow, as you have told us that -- I think you told us that you would
23 bring them to us.
24 Then could you please follow the usher. You're excused for
25 today, and we'd like to see you back tomorrow, quarter past 2.00.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would like to read a decision, deliver
3 an oral decision on the Prosecution's motion for protective measures for
4 witnesses filed 6th of January, 2010, and on the Prosecution request for
5 leave to reply to the Stanisic Defence response to the Prosecution motion
6 for protective measures for witnesses filed on the 21st of January, 2010
7 but only in as far as they relate to Witness B-1048. The Chamber stays
8 its decision on these two motions with regard to Witness B-1459.
9 In its 6 January motion, the Prosecution requests that
10 Witness B-1048 be granted a pseudonym and face distortion (redacted)
14 The Prosecution refers, inter alia, to the most recent report of
15 the Office of the High Representative in Bosnia and Herzegovina
16 from now on will refer to the OHR, to argue that relations between
17 Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Muslim in the Republika Srpska have worsened in
18 the summer and autumn 2009.
19 If you would excuse me for one second.
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE ORIE: The Stanisic Defence in its response of the
22 20th of January, 2010, argues that Witness B-1048's fears are subjective
23 and that he has not received any specific threats. The Stanisic Defence
24 further contests the Prosecution's reliance on the OHR report which has
25 not been disclosed to the Defence as it would impermissibly lower the
1 threshold for protective measures. The Simatovic Defence did not respond
2 to the motion.
3 In the 21st of January request to reply, the Prosecution states
4 that it seeks to address certain alleged inaccuracies and incorrect
5 assumptions made by the Stanisic Defence.
6 The party seeks protective measures for a witness must
7 demonstrate an objectively grounded risk to the security or welfare of
8 the witness or the witness's family, should it become known that the
9 witness has given evidence before the Tribunal. This standard may be
10 satisfied by showing that a threat was made against the witness, or the
11 witness's family. It may also be met by demonstrating a combination of
12 the following three factors. One, the witness's testimony may antagonise
13 persons who reside in a specific territory; two, the witness or his or
14 her family live or work in that territory, have property in that
15 territory or have concrete plans to return to live in that territory; and
16 three, there exists an unstable security situation in that territory
17 which is particularly unfavorable to witnesses who appear before the
19 We now briefly move into private session.
20 [Private session]
11 Page 2986 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
6 The Chamber considers that, in view of the status of the witness
7 and of the subject matter of his testimony, the protective measures
8 requested by the Prosecution, namely, a pseudonym a face distortion,
9 would not guarantee that his security and that of his family are
10 adequately safe-guarded. The Chamber, therefore, orders, pursuant to
11 Article 20, paragraph 1 of the Tribunal's Statute, and Rule 75 of the
12 Tribunal's Rules of Procedure and Evidence, that Witness B-1048 shall be
13 referred to by his pseudonym in all public proceedings and filings, and
14 that he shall testify with the protective measures of closed session.
15 Furthermore, in light of this decision, the Chamber denies the
16 Prosecution request for leave to reply, in as far as it concerns
17 Witness B-1048.
18 And this concludes the Chamber's decision.
19 With apologies for the late conclusion of today's session, we
20 adjourn, and we will resume tomorrow, the 26th of January, quarter past
21 2.00, Courtroom II.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.09 p.m.
23 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 26th day of
24 January, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.