1 Tuesday, 26 January 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
8 everyone in and around the courtroom.
9 This is the case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus
10 Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 The Chamber was informed that the witness had erased his e-mail.
13 We'll invite him to see whether there is any way of retrieving it.
14 The Chamber further received the weekly report on the health
15 situation of Mr. Stanisic which seems not to ask for any further specific
16 attention. That's --
17 Have the parties received it?
18 MR. GROOME: [Microphone not activated] the Prosecution has not,
19 Your Honour.
20 MR. KNOOPS: We haven't seen it yet, Your Honour. Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We will ask Madam Registrar to distribute it in hard
22 copy. But I think it doesn't give it -- it doesn't create any need for
23 further discussions at this very moment.
24 Then we'll wait until the witness has entered the courtroom.
25 Mr. Jordash, I hope you feel better again.
1 MR. JORDASH: I do. Thank you very much.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, once the witness has entered the
3 courtroom, you will have your last 15 minutes for cross-examination.
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness JF-005.
7 I would like to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn
8 declaration that you have given at the beginning of your testimony.
9 The Chamber was informed that you had erased the e-mail we asked
10 for but that you would see whether you could retrieve it, perhaps from
11 your friend. The Chamber would appreciate if you would provide it to VWS
12 if you have found it, and finally, if it is perhaps somewhere in your
13 dust bin on the computer, you might retrieve it because erasing something
14 on the computer doesn't automatically mean that it disappears entirely.
15 Mr. Petrovic, are you ready to continue?
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I am, Your Honour.
17 Thank you.
18 WITNESS: WITNESS JF-005 [Resumed]
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic: [Continued]
21 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, what e-mails did you erase precisely?
22 A. The ones I received.
23 Q. When did you do that?
24 A. Right after I downloaded the file I received.
25 Q. Why did you not share that information with us yesterday?
1 A. Because I wasn't certain of it. I wanted to double-check.
2 Q. Yesterday when you told the Court that you will forward that
3 e-mail, you were uncertain whether you were successful in deleting that
5 A. No. I wasn't certain whether the file was deleted or not.
6 Q. What about the e-mail itself?
7 A. As for the e-mail, I can request to be sent a copy.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Petrovic's mic is off.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Your microphone is off, Mr. Petrovic.
10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. You deleted the e-mail you received from your friend?
12 A. I deleted the e-mail I received as well as the one I sent.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel.
14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. What programme, what application did you use for e-mailing?
16 A. I use Hotmail.
17 Q. Why did you erase both?
18 A. When I received such e-mails, in principle, I delete them.
19 Q. So whenever you receive such an e-mail, you delete it. And
20 yesterday you did not tell the Chamber that. You promised to forward it.
21 A. Yes, if it is accessible, and if it's still on the server, I will
22 try to retrieve it.
23 Q. Of course, you will. Do you know Golub Maksimovic?
24 A. It rings a bell, although I'm not certain.
25 Q. Do you know whether that person was a member of a group?
1 A. I can't say anything with certainty.
2 Q. What did you assume or suppose about the person I mentioned?
3 A. I cannot recall the person precisely, so I don't want to guess.
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we move into
5 private session, please.
6 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 2992-3005 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 MR. GROOME:
10 Q. JF-005, during your cross-examination, the Stanisic Defence asked
11 you a number of questions regarding Milan Ninkovic, beginning at page
12 2858 of the transcript. I want to ask you several questions to clarify
13 your knowledge of this person.
14 You have testified that Ninkovic was the President of the
15 Doboj SDS
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And when the Stanisic Defence put to you that Ninkovic sent men
18 to be trained by Bozovic at Mount Ozren
19 fact, did. Is it your evidence that he did send men to be trained?
20 A. He did not send them personally, but he organised the sending of
21 these people for training.
22 Q. My question to you now is, is the training you referred to in
23 response to the Stanisic Defence questions the same training that you
24 refer to in your 2010 additional statement, which is now
25 Prosecution Exhibit P139, at page 2, when you said that you wanted to add
1 that the group of Milan Ninkovic, aka Mice, was trained by Bozovic and
2 his men sometime after the 3rd of May, 1992?
3 A. Well, at this time, for the most part, most men had to go through
4 the training camps, both at Ozren and in Doboj.
5 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, at this time I would ask to call up a
6 Defence document, document 1D875. It was one of the documents noticed by
7 the Stanisic Defence for possible use during cross-examination of this
8 witness. It is a biography of Milan Ninkovic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
10 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, I'm objecting to the course of this
11 re-examination. My learned friend is trying to introduce new documents.
12 It was noticed -- this document was noticed to the Prosecution, but we
13 elected not to use it. My learned friend is about to elicit fresh
14 evidence from it, in our submission.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the -- as I can demonstrate, the
17 Stanisic Defence put a substantial amount of material from this document
18 to the witness. The document is a report by SFOR that was provided to
19 the Office of the Prosecutor by Colonel Richard Jackson of SFOR and it is
20 the information that is available by Ninkovic. Now, both counsel have
21 characterised this witness as an unreliable witness, and it's the
22 Prosecution's submission that this report provided to the Office of the
23 Prosecutor by SFOR and noticed by the Stanisic Defence provides a
24 yard-stick against which the Chamber can assess whether the information
25 provided by this witness is reliable.
1 So it is my intention, at this point, to seek to have the witness
2 confirm certain aspects of that report, and it is my intention to tender
3 the document.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
5 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, while my learned friend has, in
6 effect, set his course of re-examination is to bolster the reliability of
7 the witness, in my submission, re-examination is so clarify issues which
8 are unclear, not to provide further evidence in support of the
9 credibility and reliability of the witness.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if the reliability and credibility is
11 challenged at a considerable level in cross-examination would you say
12 that the calling party has no opportunity in re-examination to shed
13 further light on the then-contested credibility and reliability of the
15 Is that your position? And use relevant documents for that.
16 MR. JORDASH: In so far as that can be done through
17 clarification, then I would have no problem with that. In terms of
18 introducing fresh evidence to say, Well, we know that Defence might have
19 done some damage to our witness, we're introducing new evidence to show
20 how that damage should be looked at in a different way, we would submit,
21 no; the cross-examination and re-examination would go on forever and a
22 day if that was the purpose of re-examination, in our submission.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, one more hit.
24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, briefly, that's not what the
25 Prosecution is doing here. The Prosecution is -- the selective
1 assertions from this document were put to the witness by the
2 Stanisic Defence. The Prosecution is seeking now to put the entire
3 document before the Chamber so the Chamber can use it to assess the
4 reliability of the witness.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied. You may proceed, as you
7 suggested, Mr. Groome.
8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, one way for me to proceed and to save
9 time is to simply tender the document and leave it for the Chamber and
10 for the arguments of the party to draw the comparisons between the
11 document. I would note for the Chamber that it's only the first four
12 pages of the document that relate to Mr. Ninkovic. The remainder of the
13 document refers to another person. So the Prosecution, at this time,
14 would tender the first four pages of document ID 1D875.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Any further objections? The ruling of the Chamber
16 is that this document can be used, so now the issue is whether or not it
17 can be produced in the way as Mr. Groome suggests. That is, bar table
18 document which would allow us to compare the answers of the witness to
19 the information which appears in this document.
20 MR. JORDASH: No objection.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections from the Simatovic Defence.
22 Then, Madam Registrar, the first four pages.
23 Now, Mr. Groome, the document at the right top corner says
24 page 1 of 4. So this sheds -- this raises an issue as to what are the
25 first four document -- if the document is only four pages.
1 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I believe what happened is that there
2 are several documents have been annexed to each other, so the document
3 that the Prosecution intends to tender at this time is the first four
4 pages, the 1 of 4. If you were to scroll down through e-court, I believe
5 would you find additional reports of SFOR of other individuals that, to
6 this point in this trial, have not been implicated or are relevant.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I will have a look at it.
8 Madam Registrar, could already assign a number to the -- to this
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P164, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
12 Now, Mr. Groome, the document is redacted. Any further
13 explanation for that?
14 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, it is my understanding that that's the
15 way the document was provided to us from SFOR. I can check on that and
16 report back to the Chamber in a few minutes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. We'll then further hear from you.
18 The first four pages, with a reservation, as far as the reasons
19 for the redaction is concerned, is admitted into evidence.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. GROOME:
22 Q. Now, JF-005, at transcript 2053 to 61 of yesterday's transcript,
23 you were asked about your arrest in Teslic at the end of June 1992 and
24 your subsequent detention in Banja Luka. In your evidence, in your 2004
25 statement, now P137, at paragraph 32, you stated that you were detained
1 until Rajo Bozovic found out and got you and others released.
2 My question to you is: Do you know what Bozovic did in order to
3 have you released from the military prison in Banja Luka?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
6 Your Honours, objection. If I recall, I never asked the witness
7 anything about whether Rajo Bozovic took him out of prison or sent him
8 back to prison --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Any challenge to what was asked from the witness and
10 what the witness answered can be responded to by reading the relevant
11 portion of the transcript.
12 Mr. Groome, could you ...
13 MR. GROOME: May I have a moment, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, may I proceed with another area of
16 questioning, and I will ask my colleague to raise the transcript
17 reference for me.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
19 MR. GROOME:
20 Q. JF-005, at yesterday's session at transcript 2974 to 2976, you
21 were asked about being paid monies while you were sent for computer
23 To the best of your knowledge, where was the money you were being
24 paid coming from?
25 A. Well, from what I could learn, it was coming from the
1 Ministry of the Interior, if what we were told was true.
2 Q. And specifically what country -- Ministry of Interior of which
4 A. The Republic of Serbia
5 Q. Was there ever an occasion where you had to go somewhere to
6 collect that money?
7 A. Mostly we were paid in cash at the spot. Usually we didn't need
8 to go anywhere in particular. Intermediaries came to pay.
9 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I am unable to find the exact
10 translation reference. I would except Mr. Petrovic's representation that
11 he did not ask that, and I will withdraw that question unless ...
12 JUDGE ORIE: You referred to two sources. I read in paragraph 32
13 of the 2004 statement the following:
14 "We stayed in Mali Logor for 21 days until Rajo Bozovic found out
15 where we were and managed to get us released."
16 That's what at least we find in paragraph 32 of the statement.
17 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. But what I was putting to the
18 witness was a question -- evidence that -- that I believe that come out
19 in questions by Mr. Petrovic. I'm unable to find the reference to --
20 other than the general reference that he was arrested in Teslic.
21 Maybe, Your Honour, if I could reformulate the question, rather
22 than withdraw it.
23 JUDGE ORIE: The issue is that you gave two sources and then
24 formulated the question. Apparently the one is wrong.
25 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour [Overlapping speakers] ...
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may rephrase the question, if you want.
2 MR. GROOME:
3 Q. JF-005, do you know what Rajo Bozovic did to secure your release
4 in Teslic in June of 1992?
5 A. I have information that there was much discussion involved with
6 the local authorities, since they were quite displeased with the
7 situation at the time.
8 Q. And the discussion, was just among local authorities, or was it
9 between local authorities and someone else?
10 A. I didn't participate in such conversations, so I can't tell you
11 who he talked to. At that time, I was in the military investigative
12 prison. I am only conveying to you what I had been told.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 Any need to further examine the witness?
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, I put on the record that you -- that
19 you were nodding no.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, the Chamber would appreciate if you
22 could seek further information about the two theft cases, which may shed
23 some light on the -- well, to say the least, extraordinary story that you
24 are a couple of months in detention for theft and you have got no idea
25 what the theft is about.
1 The Chamber would like to receive further information in relation
2 to those cases, in order to be better able to -- to assess the testimony
3 of the witness in this respect. And I see Mr. Petrovic is on his feet.
4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, may I just make one comment with
5 respect to this, and then I will defer to Mr. Petrovic.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution will undertake that. I
8 would say to the Chamber that there is still this pending matter of the
9 e-mail, so the Prosecution will not have any contact with this witness,
10 even if the witness should be discharged today, until we hear from the --
11 from the Chamber that that matter is now resolved.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I may take it that you -- you would first seek
13 direct contact with the -- with the authorities who would have the
14 complete files of those cases.
15 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 Mr. Petrovic.
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I may be of
19 assistance to both the Chamber and my learned friend, the Prosecutor.
20 We have already requested all those documents, and they are in
21 the process of being sent to us. I believe they will be collected
23 I wanted to ask that we either submit them through a bar table
24 submission or that we be allowed to cross-examine the witness again, and
25 I had in mind those documents as well. Of course, Mr. Groome is free to
1 inquire on his own and ask for those documents, but I just wanted to
2 advise you of the actions we have already taken.
3 JUDGE ORIE: If you want to share your information with
4 Mr. Groome, and if you expect to receive it soon, that, of course, would
5 be very practical.
6 Mr. Groome, could you -- you said the witness has been on the
7 list for quite a while. I don't remember exactly when you gave the names
8 of the witnesses to be heard in this stages of the proceedings.
9 Would you remember?
10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I believe this witness was first
11 noticed either just before the summer or immediately after the summer.
12 And if the Chamber will recall, there was a motion filed seeking that his
13 testimony be delayed, and the Chamber ruled on that and said that the --
14 that it did not result in any unfairness to the parties that he be called
15 when he's been called now. And that is, in part, why I make the
16 submission that there has been a full and ample opportunity. Of course,
17 should new information arise and should good cause arise, the Prosecution
18 would make its submissions regarding that. But it seems to me that
19 that's the more appropriate way to deal with the desire to re-call him is
20 to deal with it as new information arises.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, we saw that the information you
22 received and you tendered was apparently asked for on -- I think it was
23 the 30th of December, if I'm not mistaken?
24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, You are correct, of
25 course. On the 30th of December, we requested that information. I don't
1 want to go through the whole case history of Mr. Simatovic in front of
2 the witness, but we began our initial preparations for this witness when
3 we concluded our December session.
4 As of that day, this witness became topical to us, and then we
5 started assembling documentation.
6 As for the fact that this witness has been known to the previous
7 team for months or years even, should have no repercussions on our case.
8 Thanks to you, of course, we were allowed a short stay between
9 December and January. Once we learned of this witness's testimony, we
10 tried our utmost to gather information as quickly as possible. As I said
11 already, on the 30th of December last year, we put the initial request.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.
13 Witness JF-005 -- yes, Mr. Jordash.
14 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, Your Honour. I just wanted to make a
15 suggestion, if it's a useful one.
16 It is in relation to the issue of the e-mails and the document,
17 the Pauk diary which was obtained. Could I just suggest that perhaps the
18 witness might be able to recover his sent e-mails. He may have erased
19 his e-mails, but Hotmail, as with most of the e-mail servers, have sent
20 e-mail facilities.
21 So between him and his friend, there ought to be some record, we
22 would submit.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness JF-005, I earlier invited you to see whether
24 you could retrieve the e-mail exchange, or parts of it. You've heard the
25 suggestion made by Mr. Jordash.
1 Are you willing to -- to make all the efforts possible to you to
2 retrieve that e-mail exchange?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am ready to do that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then an arrangement should be made with the
5 Victims and Witness Section about how to receive any result of your
7 Since the Bench has no further questions for you, this concludes
8 your testimony, Witness JF-005. I'd like to thank you for coming to
9 The Hague
10 the parties and by the Bench. And I wish you a safe return home again.
11 You may follow the Usher.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE ORIE: For the next witness, we turn into closed session.
15 [Closed session]
11 Pages 3018-3084 redacted. Closed session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
15 We will adjourn, unless there is any procedural matter to be
16 raised at this moment. There is not.
17 We will adjourn and resume on Wednesday, the 3rd of February,
18 quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon, in Courtroom II.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.57 p.m.
20 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 3rd day
21 of February, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.