Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3967

 1                           Friday, 5 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.41 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, can you please call the case.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon Your Honours.  Good afternoon

 7     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-03-69-T,

 8     the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr.  Registrar.

10             First of all, we had a late start because the Chamber who

11     occupied this courtroom had to finish up a witness.  Second, a matter

12     that should be clearly on the record, Prosecution Exhibit 295, yesterday

13     if it is not clear on the record, it should be clear that it is admitted

14     under seal.

15             Third, the Chamber would like to respond at this stage to the

16     request by the Stanisic Defence to put questions to Dr. Eekhof.  The

17     Chamber allows the Stanisic Defence to put questions to Dr.  Eekhof in

18     writing.  After answers have been received, the Chamber will determine

19     whether there is any need to seek further information than to be given

20     orally by Dr. Eekhof.  The Prosecution's argument that it's premature to

21     put questions to Dr. Eekhof prior to the filing of a request for

22     provisional release is rejected.

23             The Prosecution may also formulate questions for Dr. Eekhof to

24     answer which could be relevant for future consideration of provisional

25     release.  The Chamber requires the Stanisic Defence to reformulate its

Page 3968

 1     questions.  The Chamber is concerned by the questions in which matters

 2     are raised which fall outside the scope of the expertise of Dr. Eekhof in

 3     which sometimes no clear distinction is drawn between facts known and

 4     still unknown, existent facts, future facts, and in which it is not

 5     always clear what medical expertise could provide us with in respect to

 6     those facts.

 7             As guidance for the reformulation, the Chamber states following:

 8     Questions should focus on changes in circumstances that occurred since

 9     December, that is to say since the last decision of the Chamber in

10     respect of provisional release.  New facts should be clearly described,

11     not vaguely addressed in the context of possible consequences which they

12     may result in.  A clear distinction should be made between facts which

13     are and which are not of a primarily medical character.  Medical

14     conclusions should not be asked for if it is obvious that reasonably no

15     answer could be expected which could meaningfully assist the Chamber, or

16     if they at first sight impress as calling for speculative answers.

17     Composite questions are to be avoided to the extent possible.  Before the

18     Chamber allows questions to be passed on to Dr. Eekhof, the Chamber will

19     review those questions.

20             Now, I give you finally two examples, one of a question which is

21     totally appropriate to put to Dr. Eekhof, and another one which would not

22     be appropriate to be put to Dr. Eekhof.  I'll start with the

23     inappropriate question.  Inappropriate would be a question, Could you

24     quantify the effect of continuing the colitis treatment in Belgrade on a

25     poly-clinical basis together with the possible improvement of the state

Page 3969

 1     of depression of Mr. Stanisic in terms of the risks that he would be

 2     declared unfit to travel back?  This is an exaggeration, I am aware of

 3     that, but, therefore, perhaps you should focus more on the question that

 4     could be appropriately put to Dr. Eekhof.  Has the development of the

 5     thrombosis in the leg of Mr. Stanisic in the last few weeks been of such

 6     nature that it would be a medical obstacle for a flight of approximately

 7     three or four hours in the near future?  That is a question that could

 8     appropriately be put to Dr. Eekhof.  Of course, there is a whole range in

 9     between, but the Chamber will look very critical at the questions and

10     relevant concrete information which assists is certainly to be sought;

11     however, vague and speculative material is to be avoided.  That, as far

12     as the guidance is concerned.

13             If there's no other matter, we could establish whether the

14     videolink is functioning well and hear the evidence of the next witness

15     for which no protective measures are sought.  Mr. Groome?  Or should I

16     immediately address Ms. Friedman.

17             MR. GROOME:  That's correct, Ms. Friedman will be handling

18     Mr. Sutalo, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you.

20             Then let us establish whether the videolink is functioning well.

21     Could I address the representative of the Registry in the location of the

22     videolink and could I inquire, first of all, whether you can see us well

23     and whether you can hear us well.

24             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good afternoon Your Honours.

25             Yes, we can see and hear you well in the videolink room.

Page 3970

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The same is true in the opposite direction, we can

 2     see and hear you.

 3             Could you tell us who are in the room apart from the persons we

 4     see, that is, two representatives of the Registrar and what appears to be

 5     the witness of this afternoon.

 6             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] There is also a technician in the

 7     room, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Then I would like it to address the

 9     witness.  I do understand it to be Mr. Sutalo.

10             Can you hear me in a language you understand, Mr. Sutalo?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and

13     Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration that you will speak

14     the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  The text of this

15     declaration is now handed out to you.  If you would please stand and make

16     that solemn declaration.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Sutalo.

20             Mr. Sutalo, you will first be examined by Ms. Friedman.

21     Ms. Friedman is counsel for the Prosecution, and you will see her soon on

22     your screen.

23             Ms. Friedman, please proceed.

24             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25                           WITNESS: LUKA SUTALO

Page 3971

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2                           [Witness testified via videolink]

 3                           Examination by Ms. Friedman:

 4        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Sutalo.

 5        A.   Good afternoon.

 6        Q.   Do you recall giving a statement in this case in 1999?

 7        A.   I do.

 8        Q.   I would ask that 65 ter number 5254 be placed on the monitor and

 9     shown to the witness.  This is a 92 bis package which includes a

10     statement dated the 17th of April, 1999, as well as addendum dated

11     18 June 2003.  Once again as with JF-017, Your Honours, the B/C/S

12     statement was given paragraph numbers at the time that the addendum was

13     made for the sake of clarity of the addendum.  And the Prosecution,

14     therefore, seeks leave to use a numbered version of the English statement

15     in the translation of this exhibit.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that the position of the parties is

17     the same as it was in relation to the witness with whom we had a similar

18     issue.  Leave is granted.

19             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you.

20             And I would ask that we first look at the statement dated the

21     17th of April, 1999, which is the 5th page in the B/C/S version of the

22     92 ter package and the third page in the English version.

23        Q.   Mr. Sutalo, do you recognise this as your statement from 1999?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And would you please look at the signatures on the bottom of the

Page 3972

 1     page.  Do you recognise any of them?

 2        A.   Yes.  Yes, it is.

 3             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Could the court usher please go to page number 10

 4     of both the B/C/S and English versions.  In terms of the e-court page

 5     number, that's 14 in the B/C/S and 12 in the English.

 6        Q.   And, Mr. Sutalo, do you recognise any signatures here as well?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.  Yes.

 8        Q.   Which signature do you recognise, meaning whose signature?

 9        A.   They are mine.

10        Q.   And did you have an opportunity prior to testifying today to

11     review the translation of this statement in your own language?

12        A.   Yes.

13             THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note:  There is a lot of

14     background noise, we are finding it hard to hear the witness.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that background noise in the videolink, or does

16     it come from here?  Then, perhaps it is caused by the papers, or is it?

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, the paperers, I believe the microphone on

18     the table is amplifying the sound of the paper rustling.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then the papers are to be kept as far away --

20     rather not move the microphone, but move the papers.  That might better

21     assist.

22             Please proceed.

23             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   When we reviewed your statement last week, was there anything

25     that you wished to change or clarify?

Page 3973

 1        A.   I wouldn't wish to change anything.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Well, if you recall, I would like to take you to certain

 3     parts of your statement and see if after hearing me read it back to you

 4     whether there is indeed anything that you wish to change.  Is that

 5     understood?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Paragraph 8 of your 1999 statement discusses the 1st of August,

 8     1991, and states as follows:

 9             "The mayor of Osijek came on the radio telling all soldiers to go

10     defend Dalj."

11             Do you have any corrections to make to that?

12        A.   I didn't hear that.  Only when I was there in Serbia for

13     interrogation or questioning, the main commander of the Yugoslav Army

14     told me that that is what he had heard.

15        Q.   Now, the first sentence of paragraph 10 of this statement reads:

16     "A third group of tanks, again about 50 in number, came and entered

17     Erdut."

18             Do you have any corrections to make to that?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Okay.  Do you recall how many tanks entered your village?

21        A.   I know just five or six.  At that time there weren't more than

22     that.

23        Q.   Okay.  So if you saw a group of 50 passing by on the way to

24     Erdut, would you say that -- is it your evidence now that only several of

25     them, five to six entered Erdut and the others passed by in the direction

Page 3974

 1     of Dalj?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Now, paragraph 11 of your statement describes your detention in a

 4     factory in Vojvodina.  You state that there were two other men who you

 5     recognised and you state:

 6             "One was Zvonko Tucak from Erdut and the other was called Mata, I

 7     don't remember his family name.  He was from Dalj."

 8             Is there anything you wish to change to that?

 9        A.   He worked in Dalj, but he was originally from Sonda [phoen].

10        Q.   Now, in paragraph 21 when describing the situation in Erdut after

11     the take-over of the JNA forces, you state:

12             "A curfew was imposed and every single street in Erdut had a

13     check-point manned by JNA soldiers."

14             Is there anything you wish to change?

15        A.   This was not the JNA.  This was some kind of Serbian police.

16        Q.   And in paragraph 33 when discussing your interrogation while you

17     were imprisoned at the police station in Dalj, you state:

18             "I learned from others imprisoned with me that the person asking

19     the questions was Colonel Milorad Stricevic" -- sorry, "... was called

20     Milorad Stricevic and that he was a colonel."

21             Is there anything you wish to change?

22        A.   Yes.  He wasn't a colonel, they just called him colonel.

23        Q.   In paragraph 37 when you discuss being transferred to the Borovo

24     police station you state:

25             "Here we were put into a basement that contained approximately

Page 3975

 1     half a metre of water."

 2             Is there anything you wish to clarify?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Now, can you describe what kind of water was in this

 5     basement?

 6        A.   This was water from the sewer.  It stank to high heaven in that

 7     room.  You couldn't be there.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And now I will ask for the final clarification, which

 9     is in paragraph 47.  When describing your release from the Dalj police

10     station, which we will talk about in greater detail later in your

11     testimony, you state that the man who was being referred to as

12     Mr. President:

13             "Said to some soldiers, I'm taking Sutalo, and you will Palinkas

14     to Aljmas to his house.  I will look after it."

15             Do you wish to clarify here the word "soldiers"?

16        A.   He didn't say that to soldiers, but to policemen.

17        Q.   And other than this, is there anything in your statement that you

18     wish to change at this time?

19        A.   Well, I don't know what you are going to ask me.  When we go

20     through things further, then we'll see.

21        Q.   Okay.  Now, you do recall, however, that we reviewed this

22     statement last week in your home?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And as far as you remember, we have -- now we've gone through

25     several parts of your statement.  Is there anything that comes to mind

Page 3976

 1     that you remember that was written in the statement that you did not

 2     agree with which we haven't discussed already today?

 3        A.   Well, I really didn't notice.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5             MS. FRIEDMAN:  And could the court usher please now turn to the

 6     addendum which is page 4 in the B/C/S of the package and page 2 in the

 7     English.

 8        Q.   Mr. Sutalo, the document before you purports to be an addendum to

 9     your statement.  And it is dated 18 June, 2003.  Do you recognise any

10     signatures on it?

11        A.   I do.  It's my signature too.

12        Q.   And prior to your testimony today, did you have a chance to

13     review this addendum in your own language?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Are there any changes you wish to make?

16        A.   No, no changes.  It was Loncarevic, and it probably still is

17     today.

18        Q.   Yes, you are referring to the changes that are already noted

19     there on the addendum; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now that you have taken today the solemn declaration and with the

22     corrections and clarifications that you have made in court today, do you

23     affirm the accuracy and truthfulness of both your 1999 statement and 2003

24     addendum?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 3977

 1        Q.   If I were to ask you the same questions today as you were asked

 2     when preparing these documents, would you give the same answers in

 3     substance?

 4        A.   This latest that we have is what it is.  I didn't even know him

 5     at the time.  I don't know how it happened that it's not Loncarevic but

 6     Loncevic, I don't know, but, anyway, I do know that he is Loncarevic.

 7             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you.  Your Honours, at this time the

 8     Prosecution tenders 65 ter 5254, which is the 92 bis package of this

 9     witness dated 18 June 2003, which contains both the statement and

10     addendum into evidence.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             Now, before we proceed, Mr. Sutalo, your last answer I understood

13     that to be that apart from this one matter of a name, that you would give

14     the same answers in substance if the same questions would be put to you

15     again with all the corrections you've made; is that correct?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am saying that it's

17     Loncarevic and not Loncaric.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And all the rest would remain the same as far as

19     your answers are concerned; is that correct?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the same, yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections?  No objections.

22             Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 05254 shall be given

24     Exhibit P00301.  Thank you, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  The package of two statements and to which number

Page 3978

 1     P301 is assigned is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed.

 2             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             Your Honours, the Prosecution also tenders 65 ter 40 which is an

 4     associated exhibit to the witness's 92 ter package.  This Exhibit

 5     contains photographs which are actually video stills that were shown to

 6     the witness and are referred to in the last two paragraphs of his 1999

 7     statement.  The witness was originally shown colour versions of these

 8     photos, but unfortunately the quality of the photos when they were

 9     scanned into the 92 bis package is rather poor.  I've obtained the better

10     colour copies and have shown them to both Defence teams.  They have

11     agreed for these photos to be tendered as 65 ter 40 rather than the

12     poorer quality ones.  I also note that these colour photos bear the

13     original ERN which was scanned into the package as well as the ERN

14     corresponding to the better copies.  For the convenience of the Chamber

15     and Defence counsel, I've prepared a chart that lists the photos with the

16     two sets of ERNs, so --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And you are seeking the photographs together as one

18     package to be admitted?

19             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes, just the good copy with the chart if you so

20     wish for your convenience.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  With the chart, so 65 ter would then contain the

22     photographs and the chart.

23             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

25             Mr. Registrar, could you please assign a number to the set of

Page 3979

 1     photographs and the chart contained in 65 ter number 40.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The set of photographs also

 3     referred to as 65 ter 40 as well as the chart shall be uploaded as

 4     Exhibit number P00302.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  P302 has been admitted into evidence.  Has it been

 6     uploaded already?

 7             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes, it has.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then the decision on admission is now final.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   Mr. Sutalo, do you recall giving testimony before this Tribunal

12     and the 28th of August, 2003, in the Slobodan Milosevic case?

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14        Q.   And when we met in preparation for your testimony today, did you

15     have an opportunity to listen to the audio recordings of your testimony

16     in a language you understand?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Having reviewed your testimony, is there anything that you wish

19     to change?

20        A.   No, nothing.

21        Q.   Do you today affirm the truthfulness and accuracy of your prior

22     testimony?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   If you were asked the same questions today as you were asked

25     then, would you provide the same answers in substance?

Page 3980

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders

 3     65 ter 5256 which is the prior testimony this witness given in the case

 4     against Slobodan Milosevic on 28 August, 2003, into evidence.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections?  Not.

 6             Ms. Friedman, have you carefully verified any repetitious

 7     elements in that testimony compared to the statements?

 8             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Your Honour, that testimony is rather brief.  It

 9     contains mostly a summary of the witness with a few clarification

10     questions.  It was done pursuant to the 92 bis procedure, whereby it was

11     mainly cross-examination.  So it's a short examination by the

12     Prosecution, some cross-examination by Mr. Milosevic, and that

13     cross-examination does cover other areas while the summary is somewhat

14     duplicative, but it is very brief, so for the completeness of the record,

15     we submit it should be admitted.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, since there are no objections, the testimony of

17     in Milosevic, Mr. Registrar, would receive what number?

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 5256 shall be admitted as

19     Exhibit P00303.  Thank you, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  P303 is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed.

21             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22             Now that the witness's prior evidence has been tendered pursuant

23     to 92 ter, would I like to read a summary of that evidence for the

24     benefit of the public.

25             Mr. Sutalo, please listen as I read this summary.

Page 3981

 1             Mr. Luka Sutalo is an ethnic Croat who lived in the village of

 2     Erdut in 1991.  He provides evidence about the rising tensions in 1990

 3     and 1991 and the take-over of Erdut on the 1st of August 1991.

 4     Immediately after the take-over, Mr. Sutalo tried to escape to Serbia.

 5     However, when he crossed the border, he was arrested, detained, and

 6     interrogated before being returned to Erdut.

 7             He described the conditions subsequent to the take-over, which

 8     included a curfew, restrictions on movement, looting, forced labour, and

 9     repeated interrogation by the police.

10             Mr. Sutalo describes being imprisoned for about one month

11     beginning on the 25th of August, in several different locations.  He was

12     first taken to the Dalj police station, then a collection centre in

13     Borovo Selo, next the Borovo Selo police station, and finally he was

14     returned to the Dalj police station.  Mr. Sutalo states that it was when

15     he was returned to the Dalj police station that, in his words, "the real

16     horror began."

17             Many of the prisoners were constantly beaten and forced to do

18     labour.  While Mr. Sutalo was imprisoned in the Dalj police station, he

19     saw Arkan accompanied by three of his men enter the prison, introduce

20     himself, and watch as his men severely beat the prisoners.

21             Mr. Sutalo describes how in late September, he was released from

22     the Dalj police station by Goran Hadzic personally.  As they left the

23     police building, Mr. Sutalo saw 30 to 40 Chetniks in front of the yard,

24     including Arkan.  Mr. Sutalo learned that another man who was imprisoned

25     with him, Slavko Palinkas was also released that same day, but he never

Page 3982

 1     saw the rest of the prisoners again.

 2             Mr. Sutalo was eventually granted a permit to leave Erdut in

 3     February 1992 after signing over his house and all of his property to the

 4     village council.

 5        Q.   Mr. Sutalo, what I have read is only a summary, it does not serve

 6     as your actual evidence in this case.  But I want to make sure that it is

 7     accurate.  So my question to you is whether anything I've said is a

 8     mischaracterisation or a misstatement of your evidence?

 9        A.   Well, it is as you read it.  It was like that.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I will ask you a few more questions today.  In

11     paragraph 19 of your 1999 statement, you describe attending a meeting

12     where a form of new local government was elected which included members

13     of all three ethnic groups; Serbs, Croats, and Hungarians.  You stated:

14             "Present and in charge of the meeting which lasted about half an

15     hour was Colonel Kosutic who said at the outset that we were there to

16     elect representatives of government, that it wasn't democratic but that

17     it would have to act in a democratic way."

18             So my question to you is whether there were any subsequent

19     meetings involving all three ethnic groups?

20        A.   There were a number of meetings but no Croats or Hungarians

21     attended them, only Serbs did.

22        Q.   And the Colonel Kosutic that you referred to, was he the same man

23     that questioned you when you were detained in Serbia?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Had you seen him ever in Erdut before that day?

Page 3983

 1        A.   Yes, on one more occasion.

 2        Q.   Do you remember when that occasion was?

 3        A.   That was some seven or eight days later.

 4        Q.   Okay.  So before the meeting on the 5th of August, you did not

 5     see him in Erdut, is that your evidence?

 6        A.   I did see him later on, but not before that.  Just the time when

 7     he questioned me in Bogojevo.

 8        Q.   In paragraph 21 you refer to another man at the meeting,

 9     Marko Loncarevic who you believe was from Dalj, and you state:

10             "He made a speech and said that this was not Croatia anymore, it

11     was now Serbia, and that the Croat people would not rule anymore and no

12     longer be part of the government."

13             In addition to that --

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   In addition to that, do you recall anything else that was said

16     that this Loncarevic said?

17        A.   Well, just that he said that it was no longer Croatia and that

18     the wheat that was in Erdut, that it would be taken to Serbia and not to

19     Osijek, which was in Croatia.

20        Q.   In paragraph 22, you state:

21             "The JNA had their military command HQ in Erdut at my son

22     Dobrislav's house."

23             And did your son offer his house to them?

24        A.   No, he was in Germany at the time.

25        Q.   How did they come to be in his house then?

Page 3984

 1        A.   I had the keys to his house.

 2        Q.   Okay.

 3        A.   And a lieutenant came and said that I had to hand over the keys.

 4     I tried not to, but under pressure, finally, I had to give it to them.

 5        Q.   And did soldiers move into other houses as well?

 6        A.   Yes, they moved in into all the Croatian homes that were empty.

 7        Q.   And did anyone other than soldiers move into the homes?

 8        A.   Not in our place, but, yes, in the village because Arkan's men

 9     arrived there, and they had a camp for military training, and the Arkan's

10     men moved in there, in other words, Chetniks.

11        Q.   And I would like to talk to you now about your detention in the

12     Dalj police station in greater detail.  Firstly, did you know the men who

13     were the police officers in Dalj before the war?

14        A.   No.  At the Dalj police station, there were Croat policemen, but

15     then on the 1st of August, those police officers were killed by them, and

16     later on I didn't see any of them except Cizmic, I recognised him.

17        Q.   So just to be clear, the Croat police officers who were in the

18     police station before the war were people that you knew and would have

19     been able to recognise?

20        A.   When Yugoslavia broke up, Serbs left their jobs, then Croats put

21     in their place their own police officers, but then when the Yugoslav Army

22     returned, then they shot them.

23        Q.   And can you describe for us how you came to be released from the

24     Dalj police station?

25        A.   I was in detention there when Hadzic [realtime transcript read in

Page 3985

 1     error "Adzic"] came, the Krajina commander, and he released me.

 2        Q.   And you were -- were you accompanied by him when you exited --

 3     when you left the building?

 4        A.   Well, and his company.  He wasn't the only one there.  There was

 5     another man.  When he came, I was lying down.  So when he entered, he

 6     asked, Which one of you is Sutalo?  And I said that that was me.  And

 7     then he said, Well, get ready, you are coming with me, I'm taking you

 8     home.  And at that point, Palinkas also pleaded with him to let him go

 9     too.  He said, Why should I stay here with these young men, why don't you

10     let me come along with this -- with me.

11             So then he released him too.  And then we came to the police

12     station.  There was only one police officer there, a Serb, and he asked

13     -- he asked for my file then, and then he replied, Sutalo doesn't have a

14     file.  And then the other guy just swore at him and said, So how can you

15     keep a man in prison when there is no file?  And then he said,

16     Mr. President, I don't know who is keeping him in prison; it wasn't me.

17        Q.   And when you then left the building with Hadzic accompanying you,

18     you gave evidence that there were these Chetniks outside the building; is

19     that correct?

20        A.   Yes, yes.  When we left the police station, I saw some 30 to 40

21     Chetniks outside, and then somebody yelled, Be still, and then they

22     actually reported, there was an officer to whom they reported.  And then

23     I don't know what happened next, but I saw Arkan among them, and then he

24     said, Sutalo, just come with me, I'm taking you home.  And that's how he

25     took me home.

Page 3986

 1        Q.   Okay, and when you say "he," I take it you are referring to

 2     Goran Hadzic.  And my question was whether the people outside the

 3     building acknowledged --

 4        A.   Yes, yes.

 5        Q.   And my question is whether the people outside the building

 6     acknowledged this Goran Hadzic in any way?

 7        A.   Yes, oh, yes.  As I said, they reported to him.  They -- it was

 8     like a review of troops, then he went up to the troops and according to

 9     whatever their laws were, they handed him something over.  I don't know

10     what it was, I wasn't close enough.  But basically they just greeted him

11     with honours.

12        Q.   And when you use the term "Chetniks," what do you mean by that

13     phrase?

14        A.   I mean Arkan's men.  They were young boys who said -- who told

15     stories about how they had been released from juvenile facilities,

16     detention facilities.

17        Q.   You described at paragraph 56 of your statement that you were

18     told by Palinkas, the other man who was released after you, that he

19     actually returned to the prison after being released in order to give his

20     cigarettes to the remaining prisoners.  And you state:

21             "On reaching the prison and speaking to the guard, he was told

22     that there were no prisoners left."

23             Can you tell us if you remember exactly what Palinkas told you

24     about this conversation with the guard?

25        A.   When he came with me to the police station, Hadzic said that he

Page 3987

 1     was taking me home and that they should take Palinkas to his home.  Then

 2     when he set off to go home, on the way, he realised that he had some

 3     cigarettes in his pocket, so he went back to give those cigarettes to the

 4     other detainees, and when he arrived there, he said that the prison gates

 5     were open and there was no one in the prison.  And one of the policemen

 6     asked him what he was looking for and he said, Well, I wanted to give

 7     them cigarettes and he replied, well, they won't need them anymore,

 8     they've had their final cigarettes.

 9        Q.   And when did you learn what happened to the men who had been

10     detained with you?

11        A.   The very next morning.

12        Q.   Who told you?

13        A.   A Serb woman.  Or, rather, she was a Croat, but she was married

14     to a Serb.  She came to tell me that I was lucky, that I was lucky to

15     have survived, and she said that all the others had been shot about an

16     hour later.

17        Q.   Sir, do you remember -- without telling me just yet, do you

18     remember the names of the other people who were detained with you?

19        A.   I do.

20        Q.   Okay.

21             MS. FRIEDMAN:  And I would ask that the court usher please call

22     up 65 ter 5255.

23        Q.   And I will ask you to look at this list and tell me if you know

24     these people.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 3988

 1        Q.   Now, can you read the names that you recognise and tell me where

 2     these people are from, if you know it.

 3        A.   Ivan Andjal, Ivan Andjal was from Bilje in Baranja.  Pavle Beck

 4     was in Erdut.  Haso Brajic from Osijek.  I don't know Zeljko Filipcic.

 5     As for this Ivan Florjan, he is from Bilje.  Kusic is from Sotin.  I

 6     don't know Radovanovic, where he is from.  A Stimac person, I don't

 7     remember him.  Zelember is from Batina, and he was the chairman of the

 8     HDZ there.  And then Zemljak Pavao and his son Vladimir are from Beli

 9     Manastir in Baranja.

10        Q.   And what happened to these people?

11        A.   Well, they were found dead in cells or in "celija."

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure of the meaning.

13        A.   [Previous translation continues] ... near Vinkovci, which means

14     that they had been shot.

15             MS. FRIEDMAN:

16        Q.   And are these the men that were detained with you then?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And you said that some of them were from other places, so how was

19     it -- how is it that you are able to remember their names and that you

20     know where they are from?

21        A.   While we were in the prison in Dalj, the teacher or professor

22     said, Who knows who is going to remain alive and who is going to get shot

23     dead, so let us each ask each other every single day what our names and

24     where we are from so that later on we can tell the families that so and

25     so was killed in such and such place.

Page 3989

 1        Q.   I would now like to talk specifically about Arkan's men.  You

 2     stated that you saw Arkan himself at the jail.  Did you see him again in

 3     town?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And when was the first time that you saw him and his men in town,

 6     or, sorry, in the village of Erdut?

 7        A.   I didn't see him in Erdut at all.  I saw him in Dalj when he came

 8     and beat us in the prison.

 9        Q.   And did you see his men in Erdut?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Did you see them ever engage in any violent behaviour?

12        A.   Well, their behaviour was always violent.  They never behaved

13     like human beings.  A neighbour of mine who was there, they stood him

14     against a wall of a house and then they shot at him with, what do you

15     call it, they had darts, like darts, something like darts that they

16     actually aimed at him and then he was bleeding all over, and he came over

17     to my house and asked for some brandy so that he could actually wash out

18     the wounds.

19        Q.   Did you personally see any of this, what happened to him?

20        A.   To whom?

21        Q.   To your neighbour?

22        A.   Whom, what happened?  Oh, I see.  Well, no, I didn't, but he told

23     me when once they were gone, I didn't dare go out because they would have

24     shot me.

25        Q.   Did you or your neighbour report this to the police, to

Page 3990

 1     Bozidar Bolic?

 2        A.   Well, there was no point reporting this to anyone.  I did not

 3     report this to anyone.

 4        Q.   Why do you say that there was no point reporting it, just

 5     briefly?  Why do you say that?

 6        A.   Well, even the people who had incidents of that type and reported

 7     them, it didn't help them at all.  Quite the contrary, on the next day

 8     they would come and beat him to death.

 9        Q.   Did you ever try to get a permit to leave Erdut at some point

10     between the time of your imprisonment but before you eventually managed

11     to leave in February?

12        A.   Well, before the Yugoslav Army arrived, my wife had a cataract

13     and she had to go to Zagreb to have eye surgery, but when she went to

14     Zagreb, the hospital was actually being renovated.  So she was told that

15     she would be called for surgery when the hospital was again operational,

16     and then when this evil happened, she had some pain in her eyes, so I

17     went up to them to ask for a permit in order to take my wife to the

18     hospital.  They wouldn't issue the permit to me because, as they said, I

19     was not the list.  Then I asked them what list?  And they said, Well, you

20     are on the list.  Then I said, Well, let me take a look at it.  Then they

21     pulled it out of a drawer, they pulled out a list on which all Croats

22     were, all the Croat names were on the list.  And they wouldn't let me go.

23     And it was only later on when we actually fled Erdut when we actually

24     left Erdut that she could have eye surgery in Zagreb.

25        Q.   And I wanted to ask you about that time when you actually did

Page 3991

 1     managed to leave Erdut in February of 1992, why is it, or what prompted

 2     your decision to leave?

 3        A.   Well, one couldn't survive there anymore.  Every other day I had

 4     to go to an office for questioning, and they always asked the same thing,

 5     and then they also came at night to my home, the troops, and then they

 6     searched, they searched our wardrobes and closets to make sure that no

 7     one was hidden there.  We had no rights, we weren't given any food, any

 8     clothes, and we realised we couldn't survive there, that we had to flee.

 9             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Sutalo for answering my questions.

10     I have no further questions at this time.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Friedman.

12             Could I inquire with the other parties how much time they would

13     need for cross-examination so as to be able to fix the proper moment for

14     our break.

15             MR. JORDASH:  About ten minutes, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  About ten minutes.

17             MR. BAKRAC:  Your Honours, not more than 30 minutes, let me put

18     it that way.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I suggest, since we had a late start, that you

20     cross-examine the witness for ten minutes, Mr. Jordash, that we then have

21     a break and that we then hear the evidence of the witness when

22     cross-examined by you, Mr. Bakrac.

23             Yes, Ms. Friedman.

24             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Your Honour, I intended to tender 65 ter 5255

25     which was the victim list from Dalj, and I believe I did not request to

Page 3992

 1     do so at the time.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't think you did.  Any objections?  I hear of

 3     no objections.

 4             Mr. Registrar, this witness list would receive number?

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P00304, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  P304 is admitted into evidence.

 7             Mr. Sutalo, we'll continue for another ten minutes, then we'll

 8     have a break, and then we'll hope to finish in the second session.

 9             Mr. Jordash.

10             Mr. Sutalo, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Jordash.

11     Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:

15        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.  Can you hear me, Mr. Witness?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Could I express my sympathy for your experience and indicate to

18     you that I do not seek to challenge what happened to you or suggest it's

19     not true, just so you know that -- where my questions are coming from.

20     Do you follow me?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   I want to ask you very few questions, and I'll take probably

23     about ten minutes.

24        A.   Go ahead.

25        Q.   The first question I want to ask you is about this man Cizmic you

Page 3993

 1     mentioned, who was a police officer, is that right, at the Dalj police

 2     station?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And he was the only police officer you recognised from before

 5     these events?

 6        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 7        Q.   He was a police officer at the Dalj police station, is that

 8     right, before these events?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Do you recall whether his first name was Zeljko?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Did you know him personally before the event, or did you simply

13     know him by sight?

14        A.   Yes.  I did know him personally.

15        Q.   What kind of police officer did you observe he was before the

16     event?  Are you able to offer any observations on that?

17        A.   Well, that depended on who you were.

18        Q.   Could you elaborate on that, please.

19        A.   Well, he wasn't a bad man but then when this whole unfortunate

20     thing happened, he turned out to be not so good.  But later on when the

21     Croat -- he too came to the police force, became a member of the police

22     force later on, the Croatian policeman.

23        Q.   Sorry, I don't understand the last sentence.  He became a member

24     of the police force later on, the Croatian policeman, what do you mean by

25     that?

Page 3994

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Could you explain what you mean by that.

 3        A.   Well, I don't know, but you see, when I came back, or rather when

 4     we were in Dalj, he told me that he would kill me and then put me in a

 5     hole two metres deep.  In 1948 when I returned home, I had to go and

 6     report to the police station and say that I was in Erdut.  When I arrived

 7     I saw him there, he was wearing a Croatian uniform, a uniform of Croatian

 8     police and then later on he returned.  Where he had come from, I don't

 9     know.  He had fled to Serbia, and then he came back.

10        Q.   You mentioned the date 1948, did you mean to say 1948 in?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   So you knew Cizmic in 1948?

13        A.   Not 1948, 1998.  Before that I saw him he was a policeman in the

14     Dalj police station, and then when he was on duty, I would see him

15     around.

16        Q.   Okay.  You said about Cizmic that when this whole unfortunate

17     thing happened, he turned out to be not so good.  Let me ask you about

18     that.

19        A.   Yes, yes.

20        Q.   What did you observe him doing to make you come to that view?

21        A.   When I came to Dalj, when the police brought me, he -- one time I

22     came outside to drink some water, and he saw me and said, What are you

23     doing here?  And I said, Well, I'm here.  And then he said, Luka.  And I

24     said, Leave me alone, I just want to drink some water.  But he wouldn't

25     let me do that, and he said that I was going to go into the ground,

Page 3995

 1     two feet under.  Two metres under.

 2        Q.   Okay.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Could I just consult with my colleague, please.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so, Mr. Jordash.

 5                           [Defence counsel confer]

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Mr. Witness, let me try to take this chronologically.  Again

 8     nothing you've said do I disagree with or seek to challenge, but I just

 9     want to try to make sure the Court understands what you are saying about

10     Zeljko Cizmic.  Did you see him when you went to police station in Dalj

11     on the 25th of August?

12        A.   I saw him on a number of occasions in Dalj.  He would come to the

13     police station every day.

14        Q.   Was he in a position of authority in the police station at Dalj?

15        A.   No, I wasn't able to see that, no.

16        Q.   When did the event take place that you've just described where he

17     refused to let you take a drink of water?  Was that your first visit to

18     Dalj police station on the 25th, or after you had been to the Borovo

19     police station?

20        A.   No, when I returned two or three days after that, when we came

21     back from Borovo, that's when it happened.  I was wondering what was he

22     saying to me when we knew each other and when we used to say hello to

23     each other before.  And then for him to become so brutal then.

24        Q.   Why do you say brutal about Mr. Cizmic?  What was it you observed

25     that made you --

Page 3996

 1        A.   Because he didn't let me have a drink of water and because he

 2     threatened to kill me.

 3        Q.   And did he order you back inside?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Did you observe him being brutal to other detainees?

 6        A.   No, I wasn't really able to notice that, no.

 7        Q.   Do you know or did you hear from anyone else whether he had a

 8     reputation for brutality?

 9        A.   All I know that Palinkas, there was something wrong with him too.

10     We were the only ones -- he was from Aljmas, and I was from Erdut, it's

11     the same area, the same municipality.

12        Q.   I want to stay with Cizmic for a moment.  You observed him being

13     brutal to you, and I'm interested in whether you know or have heard

14     whether he was brutal to anybody else during this period?

15        A.   I heard that Palinkas also went somewhere and then he told him to

16     go back as well, so I heard that about him in relation to Palinkas as

17     well.

18        Q.   Palinkas tried to leave the station and you heard that Cizmic

19     told him to return inside likewise?

20        A.   No, he didn't tell him to go back inside, but he, himself, they

21     had a kind of altercation.  Palinkas's son was killed in the Croatian

22     police and that's probably why they had a kind of argument, and that's

23     why he shouted at him too.

24        Q.   Palinkas told you this directly, did he?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 3997

 1        Q.   Did you observe Cizmic working alongside Arkan?

 2        A.   No, I didn't see that.

 3        Q.   Did you see him working alongside Milorad Stricevic?

 4        A.   Yes, I saw them together.  He would go to his office.

 5        Q.   Who would go to whose office?

 6        A.   Cizmic would go to Stricevic's offices, and Stricevic was the

 7     komandir of the police there.

 8        Q.   Did you ever see or hear anything to indicate to you that

 9     Zeljko Cizmic was anything other than an enthusiastic colleague of

10     Milorad Stricevic?

11        A.   Well, they were on good terms, I saw that.  I couldn't really

12     notice that they were on bad terms, no.

13        Q.   What you observed was Cizmic working as a friendly, willing

14     colleague of Colonel Stricevic, is that fair?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Mr. Witness.

17             Can I again consult with my colleague.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             Mr. JORDASH:  Thank you.

20                           [Defence counsel confer]

21             MR. JORDASH:

22        Q.   I just want to clarify something for the transcript, Mr. Witness.

23     And I think it's my fault and my pronunciation, but I want to make sure

24     that we are talking, you and I, about the same man.  We are talking about

25     -- all the questions I've just asked you and all the answers you've given

Page 3998

 1     about Zeljko concerned Zeljko Cizmic, C-i-z-m-i-c; am I correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I want to move -- sorry, I missed that.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, I asked you 20 minutes ago, how much

 6     time you would need, you said ten minutes, I did this also in view of the

 7     well-being of your client.  It now gave me the impression that you wanted

 8     to go to another subject.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  I apologise for the bad -- for the poor

10     approximation.  I hadn't expected the witness to be able to deal with

11     some of these issues, so everything took a bit longer.  I've got about

12     five minutes left.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Then that would bring us to one hour and 25 minutes,

14     if Mr. Stanisic would prefer to have the break now, we'll take the break

15     now.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Can I just check, please.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             MR. JORDASH:  I'm on the stop clock, five minutes, please, we can

19     continue.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Continue, five minutes.  I look at the clock and

21     I'll -- please proceed.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

23        Q.   Mr. Witness, I want to ask you about something you said in

24     response to a question by prosecuting counsel when you first began today.

25     And it concerns who was manning the check-points within -- within Erdut.

Page 3999

 1        A.   Erdut.

 2        Q.   Yes, thank you.

 3        A.   That was the Serbian police.

 4        Q.   It is the case, isn't it, Mr. Witness, that first when you spoke

 5     about who was manning the check-points, you said it was the JNA soldiers,

 6     when you first gave your statement to the Prosecution?

 7        A.   No.  Yes, but I -- that was my remark.  That was my objection,

 8     that it wasn't the JNA, but the Serbian police there in civilian clothes.

 9        Q.   When you say the Serbian police, are you talking about local

10     Serbs?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Did you recognise some of them as local --

13        A.   I recognised each one of them.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15        A.   You are welcome.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you very much, Mr. Witness, no further

17     questions from me.

18             Thank you, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jordash.

20             Mr. Sutalo, we'll first take a break, and we'll resume at 4.30.

21                           --- Recess taken at 3.59 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 4.36 p.m.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  For urgent personal reasons, Judge Gwaunza is unable

24     to continue sitting at this moment.  Judge Picard and myself, we have

25     considered whether we are convinced that it's in the interest of justice

Page 4000

 1     to continue and hear the case, and we are convinced that it is,

 2     therefore, we'll continue.

 3             Mr. Bakrac, are you ready to cross-exam the witness?

 4             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Sutalo, you will now be cross-examined by

 6     Mr. Bakrac.

 7             Mr. Bakrac is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.

 8             Please proceed.

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

10        Q.   Mr. Sutalo, good afternoon.

11        A.   Good afternoon.

12        Q.   Just like my learned friend, Mr. Jordash, I'm first going to

13     express to you on behalf of my client and my team my regret and our

14     regret for the unpleasant experiences that you went through.

15        A.   Thank you.

16        Q.   We have your statements before us, as well as your testimony in

17     the Milosevic case.  I do not wish to counter anything that you have said

18     or to go into any kind of discussion with you relating to certain

19     questions on which you were quite clear.  I'm just going to have a few

20     questions in order to clarify in more detail some things.  May I begin,

21     Mr. Sutalo?

22        A.   Yes, you may, go ahead.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             Mr. Sutalo, your first experience with this military officer

25     Kosutic, you said that he interrogated you at the Bogojevo factory; is

Page 4001

 1     that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Can you please tell me, Bogojevo is the first settlement as soon

 4     as you cross the Danube from Croatia into Serbia?

 5        A.   Yes, yes.

 6        Q.   We can say it's only -- it's right at the --

 7        A.   Right at the border, at the bank of the Danube.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And when you were interrogated by this Mr. Kosutic,

 9     if I understood you correctly, you were taken there by a certain

10     Zvonko Tucak from Erdut and a certain person -- another person, Mata, who

11     was from Croatia; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes, he was from Dalj.  Actually, he was working in Dalj, and he

13     was born in Vojvodina, and he lived there.  It's just that once he got

14     work in Dalj, he stayed there, and this is where this misfortune overtook

15     him.

16        Q.   Yes, and these are the two people who called you out as Sutalo

17     and took you to this military officer Kosutic; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Mr. Sutalo, you talked about Marko Loncarevic and you said in

20     your statement in paragraph 21, and it's on page 4 both in the English

21     and the B/C/S versions, that he was from Dalj; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Dalj is in Croatia, isn't it, right next to Erdut; is that right?

24        A.   Yes, that's correct.

25        Q.   Mr. Sutalo, in the Milosevic case, transcript 22572 [sic], you

Page 4002

 1     said that Marko Loncarevic, about whom you are not sure as to what

 2     position he had, what job he was doing, was in charge of everything.  He

 3     was asked about everything, is this correct, this Marko Loncarevic from

 4     Dalj?

 5        A.   Yes, Marko Loncarevic from Dalj.  During that meeting, Jovo -- I

 6     used to know his last name, but I can't remember it right now.  He said,

 7     What are you going to do with the wheat?  Because it was harvest time,

 8     and the -- you couldn't -- the transport was interrupted at Bijelo Brdo,

 9     the Serbs had cut it off, so you couldn't bring that in any more.  So the

10     question was, Jovo, what are you going to do with the wheat?  And then

11     somebody said Osijek has paid for the wheat, the wheat has to go to

12     Osijek.  And then Loncarevic said, This is no longer Croatia; this is

13     Serbia; the wheat has to go to Vojvodina.

14        Q.   All right.  I understood, so this Loncarevic who was born in Dalj

15     and who was from Dalj from Croatia from your neighbourhood, that was him;

16     right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, in order to avoid confusion at a later

20     stage, you referred, at least that was how it was translated, to

21     page 22572 - 22572 - where apparently you wanted to refer to 25572.

22             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, 25572, Your Honours.  I think

23     that's what I said, if I misspoke, perhaps, then I apologise.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Not blaming anyone, it's not worth while finding

25     out, but I'm just trying to avoid that at later stage people have to make

Page 4003

 1     a huge effort to find the right page.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Mr. Sutalo, in your statement you also say that a few days after

 5     the invasion, a large number of Serbs from Erdut, local Serbs, joined the

 6     police; is that correct?

 7        A.   Correct.

 8        Q.   You even mentioned their names and you said that those persons

 9     who joined the police, the local Serbs who joined the police started by

10     stealing property from abandoned homes; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Mr. Sutalo, you also mentioned a certain Milorad Gogic?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Can you explain what his duties were.  Who was he?

15        A.   All I know is that he was a looter and that he had the uniform of

16     the Yugoslav People's Army.  He wore a police uniform.  And he also had a

17     uniform of Arkan's Chetniks.  I don't know what he was, though.

18        Q.   And this Milorad Gogic, was he from Dalj or Erdut?

19        A.   He was born in Bosnia and he came to this area as a child.  His

20     mother, Mileva, brought him, and he lived right next door to me.  His

21     house was some 10 metres away from my house, right next to my house.

22     During these unfortunate events, he had four cisterns in his yard, three

23     cars, and one loader.  I said, Where did you get a loader, for God's

24     sake?  And he said from -- from Sarvas.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Sutalo.

Page 4004

 1        A.   You are welcome.

 2        Q.   You told me about forced labour, or you talked about forced

 3     labour.  Can you please tell me if it's correct that forced labour was a

 4     decision made by some local body?

 5        A.   I don't know.  All I know is that this was the military training

 6     camp, and this is where the young men went for their training.  And this

 7     is where we went to clear the old branches, to mow the grass, and clear

 8     it away.  It was very neglected.  And I was given the summons by a

 9     certain Darko Perepovic [phoen].  He brought me the summons, and the

10     summons was signed by Bolic.

11        Q.   Mr. Sutalo, a lot of time has gone by, you said that

12     Dejan Djakovic came to you with the order or summons signed by Bolic; is

13     that right?

14        A.   Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Sutalo, could I ask you to just make a short

16     break between question and answer because you speak the same language,

17     and then we often have overlapping speakers, and your words might be lost

18     if the interpreters cannot translate it for you -- for us.  So,

19     therefore, could you try to make a break, and Mr. Bakrac will give a good

20     example by doing the same, to just pause for a second once you've given

21     your answer.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.

23             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Sutalo, I hope that you heard what His Honour, the presiding

25     judge said, I'm going to try, and I will ask you also, to try to make a

Page 4005

 1     break.  So the order on the labour duty was signed by Bolic,

 2     Bozidar Bolic was in charge of the local police, the commander; is that

 3     correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And now tell me something about another person, about

 6     Milorad Stricevic, you testified about him.  Who was that?  Can you

 7     please tell us.

 8        A.   I don't know, he was from Dalj, and I am from Erdut.  All I know

 9     is that when I arrived the first evening he was the person in charge

10     there, and he had a policeman with him who had a whip.  And some people

11     said later that he was actually a driver; he wasn't a lieutenant.  I

12     don't know what he was.

13        Q.   For the transcript, when you say from Dalj, does that mean that

14     he was a local Serb from the area; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Mr. Sutalo, you testified about your son, or rather, about how he

17     came to the police station and brought some things and cigarettes for

18     you, and so on.  This was not quite clear from your testimony in the

19     Milosevic case and from your statement, so can we clarify that.  Your

20     son, Vidoje, was he a member of the Yugoslav Army?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you give us a page reference.

22             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is the English

23     page 7, I believe that's paragraph 41, and it begins with, "Vidoje my

24     elder son is married it to Marinka, she had a relative in the JNA," and

25     so on.  As for the transcript page in the Milosevic case.

Page 4006

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what I was asking for primarily, yes.

 2             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] Bear with me a moment, Your

 3     Honours, I jotted it down.  That's 25578.  Page 25578.

 4        Q.   Mr. Sutalo, it is unclear and I would appreciate it if you could

 5     clarify it now, and if you cannot, that's also all right, but tell us,

 6     your son Vidoje, was he a member?

 7        A.   My son Vidoje is married to Marinka Milojkovic, a Serb, and he,

 8     too, was with the Serbian army that went to defend Krajina.

 9        Q.   If I understand you correctly, your son Vidoje was in the Serb

10     Krajina army; correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13        A.   You are welcome.

14        Q.   Mr. Sutalo, I have just a few other questions and I believe that

15     I will be done in five to ten minutes.

16        A.   Oh, just go ahead, I have plenty of time.

17        Q.   Well, I know that, Mr. Sutalo, but I think because we are doing

18     this well, we are moving along fast.  So I will have just another

19     question about this.

20             You mentioned in your statement a certain Milenko Simic.  And

21     where you said that the local people began to disappear and their wives

22     and relatives, that Milenko Simic was actually involved in that; is that

23     correct?

24        A.   Milenko Simic was a Serb policeman.  He drove a Serb police car,

25     and he went, I don't know who he received orders from, but he went to

Page 4007

 1     collect the people as ordered.  And whenever he drove someone, that

 2     someone never returned.

 3        Q.   Mr. Sutalo, let's just be precise, when you say a member of the

 4     Serb police, you mean the local Serb police?  He was a local man?

 5        A.   Oh, yes, yes.

 6        Q.   There was an incident where a hand-grenade was actually lobbed

 7     into your garden and you said that you reported this to a Trolic or a

 8     Trovic, could you tell us who this person was?

 9        A.   Yes, that was the chief commander of the JNA, the army that went

10     to Vukovar and returned from the battle-field, and he was -- actually his

11     staff was in the house of my son, and I reported this incident with the

12     hand-grenade.  This was 15 minutes before Christmas when this happened

13     and --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear who it was who

15     threw the bomb, the hand-grenade.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Sutalo, the interpreters could not hear who it

17     was that threw the hand-grenade.  Could you repeat that, please.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The hand-grenade or who it was who

19     title threw it, I don't know.  But I know that it was one of his

20     policemen, but they wouldn't say who.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.

22             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Sutalo, isn't it correct that after you returned to Erdut,

24     you heard that this hand-grenade was actually thrown by a local

25     policeman, Zoran Oljaca?

Page 4008

 1        A.   Yes, I heard about that, Gogic told me about it, but he said that

 2     it wasn't him but the other one, but now I don't really know which one.

 3     When you don't see something, you can't really confirm.

 4        Q.   Mr. Sutalo, the permit to leave Erdut, you requested to be issued

 5     this permit -- you requested Mr. Bolic, correct, the commander of the

 6     police in Dalj?

 7        A.   In Erdut.

 8        Q.   In Erdut.  Now, you said that in order to obtain the permit, you

 9     had to actually sign over your house and your property to the village

10     council.  Now, what I would like -- please listen to my question

11     carefully.  Once you returned after the JNA retreated, was your property

12     still in the registry of deeds?  Was it still registered there under your

13     name?

14        A.   Well, my house was registered in the registry in Osijek, and at

15     this time it was impossible to go from Krajina to Osijek in order to

16     enter the information, so my house remained -- the deed on my house

17     remained in my name, and this was true not only for my house, but for

18     everyone else who actually signed over their property, because those

19     signatures weren't worth anything.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Sutalo.

21             Now, tell me one more thing.  Was there a certain number of

22     people of Croat nationality who remained in Erdut after you left and

23     remained there all through until you returned?

24        A.   Well, yes, that's true.  Many people stayed back, but not I

25     returned, because about 20 days later all Croats left Erdut.  Everyone

Page 4009

 1     was expelled, so that in fact Erdut remained ethnic.

 2        Q.   Did they all request to be issued permits to leave?

 3        A.   Well, I don't know what it was they sought.  They must have

 4     because the Serb police did not allow anyone who hadn't signed over their

 5     property to them.  No one was allowed to leave unless they did that.

 6        Q.   And if I understood you correctly, you all crossed over to Serbia

 7     and then from there you moved on?

 8        A.   No, the last group of Croats who were expelled, were expelled via

 9     -- or they had to cross Bijelo Brdo on then on to Osijek.  But the

10     earlier group, when we fled, we fled via Vojvodina.

11        Q.   Mr. Sutalo, at this time when a large number of Croats left that

12     area, was there a large influx of refugees from Serbian Krajina following

13     in the after math of Oluja and Pakrac?  Was it -- were they expected --

14     were they waiting for a large number of refugees, of Serb refugees to

15     come over from Croatia?

16        A.   I don't know, but I know that a large number of Serbs did come,

17     and they were -- later on they were given the Croat houses.

18        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Sutalo.

19             Now, could we just go back to the very beginning of your

20     statement, I just wanted to make sure about something there.  In

21     paragraph 3 of your statement which then became Exhibit P301, you said

22     prior to the elections in 1990, relations between the different ethnic

23     groups in Erdut were almost perfect.  We all had good relations with each

24     other, attending each other's weddings, funerals, and feasts.  This was

25     due in part to the many mixed marriages.  And then you go on explain that

Page 4010

 1     when the HDZ party was established, you became a member of it.  Now, my

 2     question, Mr. Sutalo, is this -- and as a member I'm sure you must have

 3     known, and I suppose that you will agree with me, but the basic policy,

 4     the underlying policy of the HDZ was to secede from Yugoslavia, for

 5     Croatia to secede from Yugoslavia?

 6        A.   Well, everything went on well until Jovo Raskovic came along.

 7        Q.   Excuse me for interrupting you, Mr. Sutalo --

 8             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] But Your Honours, we have this in

 9     the testimony in the Milosevic case.  I don't want to cover the same

10     ground; I just want to put a very specific question to this witness.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until Raskovic's speech in Dalj,

13     everything was all right, but from that moment on, the Serbs began to

14     avoid speaking with us, and then all of this happened.  We were never

15     told by anyone in the HDZ that we should part ways or that you have to

16     listen to our orders --

17             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Sutalo, I fully understand what you are saying, but please

19     let's try and focus in order to finish as soon as we can.  So please

20     listen to my question carefully, and it's very simple.  I am not asking

21     about who showed what.  But just tell me, is it true that the policy of

22     the HDZ was for Croatia to secede from Yugoslavia and to establish

23     Croatia as an independent state?  That is my first question.

24        A.   No one ever said that in any meeting or any gathering.  Never.

25        Q.   Do you know that when the HDZ came to power, the Serb people,

Page 4011

 1     which until then, had been an constituent ethnic group in Croatia, now

 2     lost this feature and became a national minority, do you know that?

 3        A.   Of the Serbs in Erdut, and there were 23 per cent of them, no one

 4     ever touched them.  No one ever gave them a bad look.  No one ever hit

 5     them, and they killed 35 Croats in Erdut, and now you draw your

 6     conclusions.

 7        Q.   Mr. Sutalo, I understand what you are saying fully.  And I'm not

 8     saying that in Erdut or in Dalj you resorted to violence or that you

 9     treated the Serbs, your neighbours, improperly.  My question only is

10     this.  When the HDZ came into power, the Serb people, who until then

11     figured as a constituent ethnic group, were now expelled from that, or no

12     longer had that position.

13        A.   Well, I don't read the constitution, and I've never read anything

14     like that.

15        Q.   Very well.

16             Now, Mr. Sutalo, on the first page of your statement,

17     paragraph 4, you say, The HDZ party was formed, I became a member.  And

18     then your meetings were held in Stjepan Lucan's house in Orasje on the

19     outskirts of Erdut.  My question is why does a legally established party

20     meet in a private home on the outskirts of Erdut, rather than meet in the

21     culture centre in Erdut which probably existed, so why was this happening

22     in a private home on the outskirts of Erdut?

23        A.   Well, there was no culture centre, nor were the meetings held

24     there because it didn't exist.  Now later on when Arkan came, he actually

25     built a large culture centre and also the same happened in the village a

Page 4012

 1     bit further on, so now we have two of them in Dalj.

 2        Q.   Well, wasn't there -- weren't there any premises where a meeting

 3     of a party could be held publicly at the time?

 4        A.   Well, the meetings were actually convened by the chairman of the

 5     HDZ board, and I don't know why he chose to convene them there.

 6        Q.   And do you know when the new constitution was adopted in Croatia

 7     when the HDZ came to power, that members of the police of Serb ethnicity

 8     were forced to leave the police?

 9        A.   Where?

10        Q.   In Erdut and Dalj.

11        A.   Well, to this day there are five or six police officers of Serb

12     ethnicity in Erdut.

13        Q.   Mr. Sutalo, I believe we did not understand each other.  I'm not

14     talking about the present time.  I'm talking about the period that is

15     relevant for this case.  I'm talking about 1991.

16        A.   Well, I don't know that.

17        Q.   That's all right.  Now, I have a few more questions.  You

18     mentioned on several occasions, as you testified, the word 'Chetniks.'

19     You used that word.  Now, tell me, sir, you are an elderly man, can you

20     tell me whether the term "Chetnik" is a equally offensive as the term

21     "Ustasha"?

22        A.   Well, I think so, they are both the same.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             And my final question, Mr. Sutalo, today, for the first time, you

25     mentioned when speaking about Arkan's men.  In other words, you gave a

Page 4013

 1     statement in 1999, you were questioned in the Milosevic case, and yet it

 2     is only today for the first time -- whereas even during the proofing

 3     sessions with my learned colleague, you never mentioned this.  But you

 4     said today in your testimony that Arkan's men were actually -- had

 5     actually been released from juvenile detention facilities.  Now, tell me

 6     this, all these years later, how is it that you've just mentioned this

 7     today and that you learned of this now?

 8        A.   Well, I was a beekeeper and people would come to my place to buy

 9     honey from me.  Most of these people were young people and then one of

10     them said to me that most of these young men were actually -- or had

11     actually been released from juvenile facilities so that they could

12     actually March in Croatia.  So that's where I learned that, and that's

13     why I used that today.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the last exchange.

15             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Well, Mr. Sutalo, the last words you said were not recorded in

17     the transcript.  You said that it wasn't correct, or that you didn't know

18     it?

19        A.   Well, yes, I don't know about that, but I do know what I was told

20     by this one person because I asked, Well, how come all of you are so

21     young?  And he said, Well, they are all released from a juvenile

22     facility.

23        Q.   Mr. Sutalo, since you mentioned that they actually bought honey

24     from you, would that mean that they actually paid for the honey, Arkan's

25     men?

Page 4014

 1        A.   Yes, yes, they paid it quite honestly, they did.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Sutalo, I have no further questions for you, and I

 3     wish you a long and good life.  I see that you look very well.

 4             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  That is

 5     all that I have for this witness.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

 7             Has the cross-examination triggered any need for further

 8     questions to Mr. Sutalo?

 9             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes, only one brief matter of clarification.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Sutalo, Ms. Friedman has some questions for you.

11                           Re-examination by Ms. Friedman:

12        Q.   Mr. Sutalo, you were asked today in the cross-examination just

13     now about two people who were with you in Serbia called Zvonko Tucak and

14     Mata, any I think there may have been some confusion.  You were asked

15     whether these people called you out and took you to the military officer

16     Kosutic.  Did these men take you to the officer; is that right?

17        A.   No.  No.  They didn't take me, but because there was this

18     unfortunate thing with the army entering, then Zeljko Zubovic came, he

19     worked at the Erdut farm, he came and said that there were many Croats in

20     Dalj that had been killed.  So then I said that my wife and I should flee

21     across until things quietened down a little bit, so when we went across,

22     I was caught by the army, Kosutic's soldiers, and they took me to him.

23     This is where I met Tucak and Mata from Dalj.

24        Q.   And were Tucak and Mata also being held there and detained there

25     in Serbia?

Page 4015

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you, I have no further questions.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are welcome.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Since the Bench has no further questions.  And may I

 6     take it that the re-examination has not triggered any further need for

 7     questions to the witness.

 8             Mr. Sutalo, this concludes your testimony.  I would like to thank

 9     you very much for coming to the place of the video conference and for

10     having answered the questions that were put to you.  You are excused, and

11     I wish you --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm grateful to you as well, thank

13     you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I wish you a safe return home.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we can conclude the videolink.  Thank you

17     for your assistance, Ms. Veretelnikova, at a distance.

18                           [Witness's evidence via videolink concluded]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I have a few matters, not very much.  One is

20     I'd like to have special attention for page 18, line 10, where I got the

21     impression the witness was talking about Mr. Hadzic, Goran Hadzic,

22     whereas it appears as Adzic and since Mr. Adzic also was a prominent

23     person in the former Yugoslavia, we should take care that this is not in

24     any way misrecorded or misunderstood.

25             Then finally, Mr. Stanisic, you have asked whether you could

Page 4016

 1     address the Chamber for five minutes.  Now, the Chamber is willing,

 2     although it's not very common, to give you an opportunity to address the

 3     Chamber.  And from what I see, there's no need to give a solemn

 4     declaration because matters you will talk about are not related to

 5     matters we find in the indictment.  However, although there would be time

 6     at this moment, one of the judges is not there.  For that reason, it

 7     might be wiser to wait until Monday, so that all three judges have heard

 8     what you want to tell us.

 9             I see you are nodding yes, which I take it for agreeing to

10     postponing it until next week.

11             Is there any other procedural matter which requires our attention

12     at this moment?

13             MR. GROOME:  Not from the Prosecution, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I see no positive responses, and I hear no positive

15     responses from the Defence, therefore, the Chamber takes it that the same

16     is true for the Defence.

17             Then under these circumstances, we'll adjourn, and we'll resume

18     on Monday, the 8th of March, at quarter past 2.00 in Courtroom II.

19                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.16 p.m.

20                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 8th day of

21                           March, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.