Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4231

 1                           Tuesday, 13 April 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

 7             Good afternoon everyone in and around the courtroom.

 8             This is the case IT-03-69-T.  The Prosecutor versus

 9     Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             First of all, we have technical problems.  We can see the

12     transcript on our screen which cannot be manipulated on the other one,

13     it's not available yet.  Nevertheless, I suggest that we start.

14             Yes.  It's still not functioning.  There is a request

15     outstanding.  Mr. Simatovic asked to address the Chamber for two minutes.

16     Mr. Simatovic, we'll allow you to address the Chamber, but only after you

17     have consulted with counsel because there are a lot of things that could

18     not be appropriately addressed by you such as started commenting on the

19     factual basis of our decision or commenting on the decision itself.

20     There are a lot of things that cannot appropriately be addressed, and

21     Mr. Bakrac is the one who could give you guidance in this respect.  But,

22     once you've taken advice, you may address the Chamber for the two minutes

23     you asked for.  Whether that will be today or next week is still to be

24     seen.  That depends on the time available.

25                           [The witness takes the stand]

Page 4232

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Witness JF-036, good afternoon.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that you

 4     are still bound by the solemn declaration that you've given yesterday at

 5     the beginning of your testimony that you'll speak the truth, the whole

 6     truth, and nothing but the truth.  Is that clear to you?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8                           WITNESS:  JF-036 [Resumed]

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I meanwhile establish that the system, the LiveNote

11     system, is functioning again.

12             Mr. Hoffmann, you may continue.

13             MR. HOFFMANN:  Thank you, Your Honours.  At this point,

14     Your Honours, the Prosecution will play first clip from video 65 ter

15     4490.  The video ERN is V000-6820.  The transcripts have been provided to

16     the booth, and the first clip is marked as clip 1.  It is a video

17     containing various footage.  This video is seised by the Ministry of

18     Interior of Montenegro in 2006 from the premises of Vasilije Mijovic in

19     the context of a national criminal investigation.  That video was then

20     handed over by the Ministry of the Interior of Montenegro to the ICTY

21     Office of the Prosecution on May 14, 2006.

22                           Examination by Mr. Hoffmann:

23        Q.   And, Witness, I will ask you to carefully review the footage that

24     we play now, and I will afterwards ask you some questions.  And we'll

25     start with the first clip which starts at 1 hour 12 minutes 54 seconds of

Page 4233

 1     the original tape.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Battalion of young Serbian fighters

 4     is ready for inspection.  Ready to report."

 5             MR. HOFFMANN:

 6        Q.   Witness, we have stopped this clip at just 10 seconds of this

 7     clip, in the original at 1 hour 13 minutes, and I just ask you if you

 8     recognise any of the people displayed at this screen shot?

 9        A.   I recognise the person with the dark sunglasses; that's

10     Colonel Mijovic.

11        Q.   And just for the record, that is the person to the very right on

12     the screen shot; correct?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   And if I can ask you to look at the person in the black uniform,

15     he will appear later on in this clip and maybe you can answer whether you

16     know him at the end of this clip.  So we'll continue this clip until

17     1 hour 14 minutes and 44 seconds?

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "May God be with you, Serbian heros.

20     May God be with you.

21             "Soldier Mijovic Bosko:  Rifle number 686205.

22             "Soldier Rajko Parabag:  Rifle number 686203.

23             "Soldier Spasoje Rajinovic:  Rifle number 686207."

24             MR. HOFFMANN:

25        Q.   Sir, did you have a chance to view that person in the black

Page 4234

 1     uniform that we saw at the earlier screen shot and did you know that

 2     person?

 3        A.   Well, I know this person under the nickname of Mungos; he was one

 4     of the instructors in Mr. Mijovic's unit.

 5             MR. HOFFMANN:  Your Honours, for the next question I would like

 6     to go into closed session briefly.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Would private session do?  That's practically the

 8     same in this courtroom.

 9             We turn into private session.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4235

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 7             MR. HOFFMANN:  We do continue the clip and that is now clip 2.

 8     It runs until minute -- 1 hour 21 minutes, and it shows an interview with

 9     Mr. Mijovic.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Today the young Serbian army has

12     been issued their weapons.  Please say a few words in honour of this

13     event.

14             "I have to say that I am happy and proud that so many Serbian

15     soldiers answered this call.  As you can see, they accomplished a

16     historical deed today by receiving their rifles.  We all know what the

17     Croatia 'soldateska,' in other words, the Ustasha, have in mind for us in

18     this area.  We will train these young Serbian heros that will enable them

19     to master as well and as quickly as possible the weapons they have been

20     issued today and to protect their young lives.  I want to use this

21     opportunity to say that, together with my instructors, I am fully

22     responsible for them, which means that for any kind of combat operations,

23     assaults, defence, defence of this part of the Republic of

24     Serbian Krajina, all of them upon completion of training will be assigned

25     to the Special Police Brigade of the RSK, and all commanders who are

Page 4236

 1     performing the training are to join them as necessary in any kind of

 2     combat operation.  For this type of training, much time is needed.  But

 3     we don't have that much time, and a huge task is before us.  A great

 4     responsibility lies on our shoulders because, as you can see, all those

 5     young Serbian men are 18 or 19 years old on average.

 6             "Journalist:  Colonel, sir, they are young and they grew up the

 7     last four or five years in the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  They

 8     already know what their goals and tasks are -- to defend the Serbian

 9     homeland.  What kind of message can you give to their parents?

10             "Vasilije Mijovic:  I must say that their parents, their mothers

11     and fathers, should be proud that they have sons who are ready to defend

12     their homeland that is these territories.  They don't need to think much

13     because all the commanders, or rather, instructors, who are going into

14     action if necessary, and it will surely be necessary, will be leading

15     their platoons, detachments.  And I claim with full responsibility that

16     during this time-period they will receive training that will enable them

17     to put up adequate resistance to any kind of aggression.

18             "Journalist:  Colonel, sir, special units of the MUP,

19     Ministry of the Internal Affairs of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, the

20     instructors who train this young army, are battle hardened fighters from

21     1990 and 1991 up till now.  What can you say, how will your units behave

22     in case of an Ustasha aggression against this territory?

23             "Vasilije Mijovic:  I'll be very brief.  The special units of the

24     RSK MUP take part in all combat activities on the territories of the

25     former Yugoslavia and anywhere where it is necessary to defend the

Page 4237

 1     Serbian people.  We are ready at all times to wait for the Ustasha and

 2     show them how we defend our own country because we are defending our

 3     homes, we are defending our land, and everybody knows from history that

 4     this country it Serbian holy land.

 5             "Journalist:  Colonel, sir, in closing, what will your message

 6     for the residents of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem be?

 7             "Vasilije Mijovic:  Well, first of all, it is very clear to all

 8     of us that we will not concede an inch of land to the Ustashas, and no

 9     one can force us to abandon these territories.  I mean to say that these

10     territories are ruled by one unified party, at this moment, determined to

11     defend Serbian land in our homes that have been our homes for centuries.

12             "Journalist:  Colonel sir, thank you, and I hope your weapons

13     bring you luck.

14             "Vasilije Mijovic:  Thank you, too, and with God's will we will

15     shortly recover our western parts as well because they're ours, and we

16     will not allow these people, this aggressor, who does not have an ancient

17     history like the Serbian people have."

18             MR. HOFFMANN:

19        Q.   Sir, do you have any idea where this footage could have been

20     taken?

21        A.   Well, judging by the country-side that we could see at the

22     beginning of the video-clip, this was in Baranja.  You can see that this

23     is marshy land near Kopacki Rit, which is a national park.  In other

24     words, it was not -- it wasn't filmed at a location A on this list

25     because judging by the lie of the land and the scenery, I wouldn't think

Page 4238

 1     that this was in the Petrovo Selo in Baranja because the border with the

 2     Republic of Hungary is very close, and I would assume that this was in

 3     BiH, filmed in BiH.

 4        Q.   Just for the record, did I correctly get the translation that you

 5     say this may have been in Bosnia-Herzegovina and not in the area of

 6     Baranja?

 7        A.   No, quite the contrary.  I said that judging by the lie of the

 8     land because it's flat and because it's marshy land this must have been

 9     filmed in Baranja.

10        Q.   And do you have any idea at what particular location this might

11     have been?  You have excluded two locations; do you know what location it

12     might have been?

13        A.   I assume that this was the area around Bilje.  I've already said

14     so.

15        Q.   Have you ever attended or seen a similar event as seen on this

16     footage?

17        A.   Yes, I attended a similar event at location A where there was a

18     gathering of young privates in the presence of their parents.  There was

19     a celebration where Colonel Mijovic addressed all the present as a token

20     of his respect.

21        Q.   And my final question on this clip:  Could you identify the

22     journalist who interviewed Mr. Mijovic on the footage?

23        A.   Yes, the journalist was from Beli Manastir, and on the list you

24     can find him under number 4.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And we play one last clip.  It continues right after

Page 4239

 1     this clip and runs until 1 hour, 24 minutes, 41 seconds of the original

 2     tape.  It's clip 3 for the booth.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover].

 5             "Journalist:  How is the young army?

 6             "Soldier Vanja:  At the moment, they haven't received enough

 7     training.  They have been here only for a day or two or three, but I can

 8     say that they are very good so far, that they are progressing quite fast,

 9     especially because they have very good instructors who are my colleagues,

10     my friends.  And I hope that we will make a good army from these young

11     fellows; and not only a good army but a Serbian army which will defend

12     this region.  And not just to defend -- they have to defend it, there's

13     no other way.

14             "Journalist:  Vanja, since 1991 you have been in the special

15     units of the Republic of Serbian Krajina

16     MUP.  Colleagues, friends, fellow soldiers -- how

17     have these four years passed?

18             "Soldier Vanja:  I can tell you that these four years have passed

19     really fast.  Immediately when I finished school I put soldiers' boots

20     on, I put a uniform on, and I'm satisfied.  I wouldn't change it for, I

21     don't know, even if somebody offered me Hawaii or Tahiti or some enormous

22     fortune, not at all.  I wouldn't change my friends, especially not those

23     who got killed.  And in the memory of them and all those who gave their

24     lives for this, it's worth staying.  I'm not talking only on my own

25     behalf but on behalf of my colleagues and on behalf of all those who

Page 4240

 1     stayed in the first place.

 2             "Journalist:  A lot of things have happened in the last four

 3     years which shouldn't be told.  But tell us some story from the line of

 4     contact, from the action.

 5             "Soldier Vanja:  Well, the story from the last field operation, I

 6     was given a fancy car, a nice jeep, which was given personally to me for

 7     my needs.  And by chance, during one operation, not knowing where the

 8     lines were, I crossed the line and they started firing at me so heavily

 9     from all kind of weapons, from infantry weapons to artillery.  I thought

10     that was the end of my career, but it wasn't.

11             "Journalist:  You have told us about the line of contact and the

12     commander who leads the soldiers.

13             "Soldier Vanja:  Oh, yes, that's from the last field operation.

14     He has millions of those adventures.  There are so many of them that one

15     can't remember them.  He was standing behind the car, he was looking for

16     something in the trunk when M120 fell some 5 metres away from him and the

17     man didn't even budge.  Those who were near him threw themselves to the

18     ground.  I mean, all of them were my friends and I would have done the

19     same.  I mean, we have to protect ourselves.  If you don't protect

20     yourself, not even God will protect you.  However, he is either protected

21     by God or by devil or some -- something else.  I don't know by whom.  He

22     just turned, looked, pieces of shrapnel were all over the place.  Later

23     on, when everything was over, he said:  'Something could have happened to

24     me.  Look,' he said, 'how these can slaughter.  What would happen if

25     something like that slaughtered me?'  Anyhow, nothing happened.  He has

Page 4241

 1     his own way.  I told him when something cut him into pieces not even I

 2     could put him together.

 3             "Journalist:  Vanja, a few days ago we were on the lines of

 4     contact and there were medical corps of the Baranja division.  They have

 5     some young girls there.  You are a young girl, instructor of the special

 6     units of the Republic of Serbian Krajina of the MUP.  More than 600 years

 7     have passed since the Battle of Kosova and the Kosova girl.  600 years

 8     have passed and she is still alive.

 9             "Soldier Vanja:  The Kosovo girl is one thing, and I'm something

10     else.  I don't like to be identified with anybody.  She has her history,

11     her tradition, and I guess I'll have mine one day.

12             "Journalist:  Thank you, Vanja, and all the best.

13             "Soldier Vanja:  Thank you too."

14             MR. HOFFMANN:

15        Q.   Sir, could you identify -- no, sorry, did you recognise the

16     female soldier referred to as Vanja?

17        A.   Yes.  I saw Vanja in place A in the company of Predrag Radetic,

18     also known as "Brada" or "the beard."

19        Q.   And my final question:  Did you also have a chance to review

20     other parts of the same video, identifying other locations on this video?

21        A.   Yes, I had a good look, yes.

22             MR. HOFFMANN:  Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders this video

23     into evidence.  That is, in fact, the whole video containing various

24     footage of Mijovic and his unit.  The total length is 1 hour and

25     45 minutes.  It mainly shows footage of training as well as combat

Page 4242

 1     operations.  The witness has seen parts -- other parts of the video and

 2     does recognise locations in Baranja.  However, in the interest of time,

 3     the Prosecution does not intend to play additional parts with this

 4     witness at this point in time.  As far as there's any spoken text to this

 5     video, these have been transcribed and translated and it's part of the

 6     Exhibit as uploaded into e-court.  At a later stage, there will be

 7     additional witnesses who will testify to other parts of this video.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  We object to the admission of the video, at least

 9     the bits we haven't seen.  I'm having difficulty understanding the

10     significance of even the last portion that's been played and the

11     Prosecution questions concerning this female soldier.  I have absolutely

12     no idea how this female soldier figures in the Prosecution case.  And so

13     whilst, of course, I don't want to take any bad points and I don't want

14     to object unnecessarily, I suspect the rest of the video is going to have

15     similar dark secrets which may emerge to bite the Defence at a later

16     stage.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac.

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will leave it in the

19     Trial Chamber's hands to decide on the two video-clips that have been

20     shown us.  I will have some questions for the witness with regard to

21     them.  And as for the rest of the video material, I join Mr. Jordash's

22     words and I object to the admission of something that has not been played

23     here in the courtroom before the Trial Chamber.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's my recollection that three clips were

25     played, isn't it?  Yes.  So I take it that you do not oppose -- object to

Page 4243

 1     the three clips being played?

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hoffmann, first of all, the Chamber will not

 4     admit those portions that are not played, whether we would make a

 5     consolidated version at a later stage is another matter, but to admit

 6     into evidence matters that we haven't even seen, I don't know what's on

 7     it; therefore, the relevance, probative value, if you agree that it's all

 8     about training with Mr. Mijovic, I even wonder whether I have to look at

 9     the screen for one hour to see that people are trained and apparently are

10     belonging to that unit.  I mean, I can imagine more or less what training

11     is.

12             But apart from the portions we've not seen, there was at least an

13     observation in relation to the relevance, especially of the last part.

14     And, of course, you're invited to say something about it, but I

15     understood that you -- the person shown on the video being a member of --

16     or, at least, being trained, being shown in a certain context, that the

17     witness knows that person from having seen her elsewhere -- is that how

18     we have to understand the relevance, or is there any other response to

19     what Mr. Jordash raised?

20             MR. HOFFMANN:  No, exactly that is the point, that we see

21     contemporaneous footage of the training of the recruitment of young

22     soldiers just as the witness has described prior in his testimony and as

23     well as Mr. Mijovic makes his own statement about that training and the

24     tasks that are fulfilled.  And also the interview helps to identify the

25     timing and the location of that footage.

Page 4244

 1             And if I may, in terms of the relevance of the video itself, with

 2     Your Honours leave, I would like to add one little clip at the very end.

 3     Again, this is just part of the video, it hasn't been shown to this

 4     witness, it would be just another -- a bit more than a minute.  But I

 5     think it would shed some light on the relevance of this video.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You've no questions in relation to that to the

 7     witness?

 8             MR. HOFFMANN:  No.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I suggest that we look at the one minute and then

10     decide on admission of the portions that were shown.  Please play the

11     last minute, Mr. Hoffmann.

12             MR. HOFFMANN:  Thank you, Your Honours.  And there is no spoken

13     text, therefore we have not provided any transcripts.  That clip starts

14     at 1 hour 33 minutes and 3 seconds of the original tape and runs until 1

15     hour, 34, and 37 seconds.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             MR. HOFFMANN:  Your Honours, why I played this clip at the last

18     screen shot at 1 hour 34 minutes and 37 you could see the licence plate

19     of a Croatian army vehicle.  Beside the car, the video showed the killed

20     Croatian soldier and the papers for the car.  This licence plate can also

21     be found at the second Kula camp video that was played earlier with

22     JF-005, the video from 2001 from the Kula camp of the JSO, the

23     Special Unit of the Serbian DB.  It is Exhibit P162.  The licence plate

24     is displayed at 44 seconds of that exhibit, together with other war booty

25     at the camp of the JSO of the Serbian DB.

Page 4245

 1             And as there had been a number of questions from the Defence on

 2     the war booty displayed at the JSO camp in Kula, I think this shed some

 3     light about where this material comes from.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hoffmann, you told us that what we could see on

 5     the remainder of the video would be some training activities, et cetera;

 6     but, apparently, where you sought the remainder to be admitted into

 7     evidence, there are other very relevant -- there's other relevant

 8     information, and Mr. Jordash expressed his fear to be bitten by the

 9     remainder of the video, which now it seems that the first bite is here,

10     isn't it?

11             MR. HOFFMANN:  Your Honours, I did refer that there is training

12     on the video but also footage of combat operations which this is part of

13     it.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but this is not primarily combat operation.

15     You are establishing a link between licence plates and you say this is

16     war booty.  So that's a different matter from just combat.  Combat is one

17     shooting at another and -- but you had a very specific matter on your

18     mind.  And when I said we will not admit the portions not played, you

19     apparently clearly knew exactly what minute and for what purpose you

20     wanted us to look at it, which you did not tell us when you in very

21     general terms described what we were supposed to look at or what we had

22     not seen.

23             This just -- comment on the way of proceeding.

24             Any objections against the last minute?

25             MR. JORDASH:  Would it be acceptable to consider this until the

Page 4246

 1     next trial session, this as Your Honour has observed is -- has been

 2     sprung upon us, and I'd like time, if I may, to consider and work out

 3     what it is the Prosecution are saying and the significance of it.

 4     Because, at the moment, it's an ambush.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll -- well, whether it's ambush, but, at least,

 6     it's not -- it seems not to be a deep bite but a small bite.

 7             Mr. Hoffmann, if this relativates a bit what I just said, then --

 8             MR. HOFFMANN:  I was just responding to the allegation of the

 9     ambush.  That particular clip, although a bit longer, had been notified

10     in the witness notification memo that it may be potentially used with

11     this witness.  Obviously we are not in a position to spell out in advance

12     of the trial session every little part of the evidence that we will

13     present.  The video has been --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, you may react later today, respond

15     later today.

16             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, I can

17     react immediately and I can say that I object to the admission of the

18     last clip.  The fact that the registration plates depicted in this part

19     of the footage and then in another part of the footage is no evidence

20     because it doesn't really prove how those registration plates arrived

21     where they were recorded.  So I don't see a link between one and the

22     other.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's evaluation and interpretation of the

24     evidence.  What Mr. Hoffmann wants to establish that we see on this

25     video-clip a vehicle with a certain licence plate and that we see the

Page 4247

 1     same licence plate elsewhere.  And, of course, it will be in the totality

 2     of the evidence to establish whether there were two licence plates with

 3     the same number or whether it was put on a different car, whether it had

 4     been stolen, whatever it is.  That's not a matter of admissibility but of

 5     weight and evaluation of the evidence.

 6             Therefore, that objection is denied.  We'll decide once we've

 7     heard Mr. Jordash's observations.  Have you prepared the four clip video

 8     that only the clips played today in court, because if we would admit it,

 9     we limit it to that.

10             Apart from that, I have one observation.  I noticed that in the

11     written transcript under the images reference was made to special units

12     of the "Serbian MUP," whereas in the transcript it now appears special

13     units of the "Serbian 2nd Krajina Corps," I don't know whether I --

14     that's what I heard; I don't remember as a matter of fact, but would you

15     please compare the original words spoken and to see whether there was any

16     reference to the special units of the -- at least I saw the word MUP, and

17     whether that is in line with what we have now in evidence as the words

18     spoken and translated by the interpreters and transcribed by our

19     transcriber.  Would you please pay attention to that.

20             MR. HOFFMANN:  We'll certainly to that.  As far as I recall,

21     there was reference made to the special unit of the RSK MUP.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I remember the MUP, and I now see, at least if it's

23     the same place, the 2nd Krajina Corps, which -- because I think there was

24     only once --

25             MR. HOFFMANN:  I will verify it.

Page 4248

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I have -- what I'm thinking of is of page 9, line 7,

 2     where it says "since you have been in the special units since 1991, you

 3     have been in the special units of ..." and that's where I thought we saw

 4     the reference to the MUP in the transcript below.  Could you please

 5     verify that.

 6             And then no further questions for the witness?

 7             MR. HOFFMANN:  We will verify.  And I have no further questions,

 8     thank you.  And we will also compile the collection of the four clips.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Hoping that we'll admit them into evidence,

10     isn't it?  Yes.

11             Mr. Jordash, are you the first one to cross-examine the witness?

12             MR. JORDASH:  I am, yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness JF-036, you will now be cross-examined by

14     Mr. Jordash.  Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.

15             You may proceed.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:

17        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

20             MR. JORDASH:

21        Q.   Could you cast your mind back, please, to the MUP building in

22     Beli Manastir in 1991.  Who was stationed there, please, if anyone?

23        A.   Before the conflict, it was the Croatian police; and after the

24     break-out of the conflict, it was the Krajina police; and then towards

25     the end of the year, it was also the Department of State Security of the

Page 4249

 1     Beli Manastir sub-centre.

 2        Q.   So during 1991 it was the Krajina police, and is this what you're

 3     saying at the end of 1991 it became the department of the state

 4     security ... [Microphone not activated]

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   What happened to the police at the end of 1991?  Where did they

 7     transfer to, if anywhere?

 8        A.   They remained there in the same building.  They didn't go

 9     anywhere.

10        Q.   And who was number 1 in the same building -- sorry, no, let me

11     strike that.

12             In 1992 did that situation remain the same with the DB and the

13     police sharing the MUP building?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Are you able to give us a picture of the numbers of police

16     officers who were stationed at that building in 1992?

17        A.   No, I can't.  I don't remember.

18        Q.   Are we talking tens or hundreds or thousands?

19        A.   Tens of them.

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24        Q.   How many rooms did the police have at their disposal?

25        A.   I really can't tell you exactly.  The building had several tens

Page 4250

 1     of room.

 2        Q.   And police officers would return there, and that was their

 3     work-place when they were not out on patrol; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.  In case of some of them.

 5        Q.   And in the case of those who did not?

 6        A.   The border police, for example, did not return to the building.

 7     They returned home from their posts after the end of their working day.

 8        Q.   Apart from the border police, did any other police officers not

 9     return to the MUP building at the end of the day?

10        A.   I don't know.  I'm not sure, I don't know.  I can't give you a

11     precise answer.  It is possible that there were others as well.

12        Q.   Was the head of the SUP or MUP of Beli Manastir based in that

13     building in 1992?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Who was that?

16        A.   Radoslav Zdjelarevic was the secretary, and the person under

17     number 3 on this list was the chief.

18        Q.   And was the senior hierarchy of the police also stationed in that

19     building in 1992?  Is that where the police administration were

20     stationed?

21        A.   I don't understand your question.  I don't know what you mean by

22     the senior hierarchy.  Are you referring to some particular services or

23     who are you referring to exactly?

24        Q.   Well, who was the immediate subordinate of number 3?  Was that

25     person stationed in the SUP building?

Page 4251

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I want to ask you about a different subject,

 8     please.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we go into private session for a second.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4252

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

15             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Mr. Witness, I want to try to have a picture of the military

17     formations in the Beli Manastir municipality in 1991 and 1992.  The

18     Army of the Republika Srpska Krajina was stationed in that region; is

19     that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Were there troops in Beli Manastir in 1991 and 1992?

22        A.   In 1991 there were still JNA troops and also partially in 1992 up

23     until the arrival of international forces which was sometime in February

24     when the UNPROFOR came and the army officially left the territory and

25     only the police remained behind.

Page 4253

 1        Q.   Thank you.  So at that point when UNPROFOR arrived and the army

 2     left, there was two, essentially, two military formations, the TO and the

 3     police; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.  The Territorial Defence actually became or transformed

 5     itself and became the so-called "blue brigade" of the police.

 6        Q.   And was that a process which took some months?  If so, when did

 7     it begin and when, in your opinion, did it end or did it finalise?

 8        A.   I cannot answer that accurately, but I think it took a couple of

 9     months.

10        Q.   Approximately when was that?

11        A.   I cannot remember, and I really wouldn't want to speculate.

12        Q.   Beginning, middle, or end of 1992?  Are you able to say?

13        A.   Well, I think it wasn't at the beginning.  It's possible that it

14     was either in the middle or at the end of the year, but I'm not sure, as

15     I've already said.  I cannot really recall that detail.

16        Q.   Okay.  Up until that time, whenever it was, in 1992, there were

17     two TO brigades in the Baranja district; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   One which had its HQ in Darda, one which had its HQ in

20     Beli Manastir; correct?

21        A.   I believe you said "Dahl," but that's not correct.

22        Q.   I think what I said was or what I intended to say was that one

23     was had a HQ in Darda and what had its HQ in Beli Manastir; is that

24     correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 4254

 1        Q.   And at some point before UNPROFOR arrived, weapons - is this

 2     correct? - weapons were moved?

 3        A.   I wouldn't know anything about that.

 4        Q.   Well, you know that during 1991 weapons of the Beli Manastir

 5     municipal TO HQ were moved to the border garrison barracks in

 6     Beli Manastir; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   The commander of the TO at that point was Lazar Brnovic?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And Milivoje Vukovic was in charge of the TO armoury; is that

11     correct?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Who was in charge of the TO armoury?

14        A.   Well, if you mean the weapons depot, yes.

15        Q.   Was it those two who were just mentioned who were responsible for

16     the transfer of the weapons?

17        A.   I don't know which transfer you are referring to.  I know about

18     the transfer from that warehouse to the local staffs in various towns.

19        Q.   Well, the transfer in the first instance to the border garrison

20     from the Beli Manastir municipal TO HQ, were those two individuals

21     responsible for that transfer?

22        A.   I really don't know.

23        Q.   At the start of the conflict in Baranja, the chain of command for

24     the TO changed, and the TO of Darda and Beli Manastir started to report

25     to the TO HQ SAO SBWS; is that correct?

Page 4255

 1        A.   I don't know about that.

 2        Q.   It's not something you heard about?

 3        A.   No, I didn't hear about it.  I'm not familiar with that.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Well, I'll move on then.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  May I go into private session, please.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We turn to private session.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 4256











11 Page 4256 redacted. Private session.















Page 4257

 1   (redacted)

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

20             Could you find an appropriate time for a break within the next

21     couple of minutes, Mr. Jordash.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Certainly, Your Honour.

23        Q.   So in -- you are not able to testify as to Martic's activities,

24     contacts, or communications in 1991, 1992; is that fair?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 4258

 1        Q.   You cannot comment or give evidence about Martic's contacts,

 2     activities, or communications with Jovica Stanisic in 1991 or 1992; is

 3     that fair?

 4        A.   No, I cannot.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  That's a convenient moment, Your Honour, thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jordash.  We will have a break, and

 7     we'll resume at five minutes past 4.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 3.32 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, you may proceed.

11             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.  May I ask if we may go

12     into private session, please.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

14             Madam Registrar, could we move into private session.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4259











11 Pages 4259-4264 redacted. Private session.















Page 4265

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

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21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 4266

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 3             MR. JORDASH:

 4        Q.   Would you agree with this assessment that by September or October

 5     1991, most of the weapons from the TO stores or from the JNA had been

 6     distributed widely in Baranja?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Would you agree with this as well, that it was only in September

 9     or thereabouts of 1991 that representatives of the DB from Sombor started

10     to arrive in the district of Baranja?

11        A.   That is when I saw them for the first time.  I don't know whether

12     they had arrived before.  I didn't know them before.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Can we go back into private, please.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4267











11 Pages 4267-4268 redacted. Private session.















Page 4269

 1   (redacted)

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

14             MR. JORDASH:

15        Q.   As far as you are aware, the DB had nothing to do with

16     Captain Dragan establishing a training camp in Tito's castle prior to

17     September of 1991?

18        A.   As far as I know, no.

19        Q.   And as far as you are aware, the Serbian DB had nothing to do

20     with the attack on Bilje in August of 1991; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And as far as you are aware, the non-Serbs who had been arrested

23     in Baranja prior to the establishment of the rule of law after September

24     1991 had nothing to do with the DB of Serbia; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 4270

 1        Q.   What role did Zorik Andrijasevic play in Baranja in 1991 and

 2     1992?

 3        A.   Well, no, he wasn't in Baranja at all.  He was the chief of the

 4     DB in Sombor, which is in Serbia.

 5        Q.   What were his contacts with Jovica Stanisic in that period?

 6        A.   I wouldn't know.

 7        Q.   What were his contact with Kostic during that period?

 8        A.   Again, I wouldn't know.  On one occasion, however, with my own

 9     chief, I went to Sombor, and that's where I saw Kostic as well and

10     Chief Andrijasevic.

11             MR. JORDASH:  Can we go into private again, please.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4271











11 Pages 4271-4289 redacted. Private session.















Page 4290

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 4             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Witness, my last question about that incident in Grabovac is as

 6     follows:  Let's look at a very short document.  2D75.  To save time, I'm

 7     going to read a sentence to you.  The heading is the Krajina MUP, the

 8     special purposes unit of Tikves, the 3rd of June, 1992.  One tank of

 9     petrol issued for the police station ...

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, Madam Registrar has difficulties in

11     finding the document in e-court.  Could you please repeat.

12             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, 2D75.  My assistant

13     has just signalled to me that the document has been uploaded in e-court

14     and on my colleague Petrovic's screen I can see it in e-court, both in

15     the original and in the translation.

16             MR. HOFFMANN:  If I may assist, it can be found under the

17     65 ter number 2D00075.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, there we are.

19             Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.

20             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Witness, did you ever see this document before?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Will you agree with me that the document clearly shows that the

24     special purpose unit of Krajina MUP in Tikves in 1992 did have it's own

25     petrol and that it did not have to obtain fuel anywhere else, and

Page 4291

 1     especially not where you allegedly saw their van?

 2        A.   I wouldn't know that.

 3             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender

 4     this document into evidence, please.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

 6             MR. HOFFMANN:  Your Honours, just for the record, I would ask

 7     that Mr. Bakrac informs the Chamber and the public where these documents

 8     came from.  He has told me already, but I think for the record.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, where did it come from?

10             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I received the

11     document from Mr. Mijovic as well as the next few documents that I'm

12     going to use with this witness.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's on the record.

14             No objections, Mr. Hoffmann?

15             MR. HOFFMANN:  No.  And my understanding is that this was done

16     recently, just for the time-period, Mr. Bakrac, I'm correct that --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you have no objections, then we have a

18     number to be assign.  If there's any other matter which needs -- which

19     the Chamber needs to know or on which the Chamber will have to decide,

20     we'd like to hear.  But no objections.

21             Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D33, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.  It can be a public

24     document, Mr. Bakrac, I take it?

25             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour.  There's no

Page 4292

 1     reason for it to be under seal.  May I please continue?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.

 3             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4        Q.   Sir, you have testified about Mr. Mijovic.

 5             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we now please look at

 6     Exhibit 2D00092.  It's a 65 ter document.  Could we please move into

 7     private session, Your Honours, because I'll have questions about --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 4293











11 Pages 4293-4296 redacted. Private session.















Page 4297

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 3   (redacted)

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Witness --

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

17             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Witness, in your statement - and I'm trying to speed this up so

19     that we can complete your testimony today and you don't have to be

20     recalled - you said that in 1995 you believe and you heard that

21     Vaso Mijovic participated in some illegal involvement in reregistration

22     of vehicles?

23        A.   Well, I think I didn't mention Vaso Mijovic but, rather, members

24     of his unit.

25        Q.   Very well.

Page 4298

 1             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have 65 ter

 2     2D00091 on the screens.

 3        Q.   And, Witness, in view of your experience, would you please

 4     comment on an Official Note, or rather, minutes.  First of all, could you

 5     please take a look at the first sentence where it says compiled on

 6     29 July 1995 at the Beli Manastir SUP after items temporarily seised

 7     during the forensic investigation into Zeljko Milovanovic

 8     aka Gavro et al. were handed over, and we can see that it was done by a

 9     commission consisting of Budimir Zecevic before the ATD unit.  Are you

10     familiar with this?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Jovo Ralic before the Beli Manastir DB?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Zoran Cuca before the Beli Manastir SUP?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Milorad Kesic before the Beli Manastir SUP?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   And, now, I would like you to take a look at this next page,

19     toward the bottom of the page, under numbers 52, 53, 54, 55, 56.  Am I

20     correct that these are actually motorcycles as you mentioned yesterday?

21        A.   Yes, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56.

22        Q.   Please do not repeat all that because we have a limited amount of

23     time, but please take a look the vehicles between numbers 59 and 70.  Are

24     all those vehicles including Jeeps, Porsches, and Audis, and so on?

25        A.   Well, listed between the numbers of 59 and 70 there are no Audi

Page 4299

 1     vehicles.  There is an all-terrain vehicle, a Jeep.  Under number 60,

 2     Puch.  There are Nissan vehicles, both passenger vehicles and all-terrain

 3     vehicles.

 4        Q.   Just one more question --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, the Chamber know what a Suzuki motorbike

 6     is; that's a motorbike.  The Chamber know what a Porsche 928 is,

 7     apparently with keys; what an Audi 100 is; what a red Golf is.  So

 8     there's no need to -- these are vehicles either on two wheels or and four

 9     wheels and most likely they had a spare wheel as well.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Very well.  Can we now have the last

12     page, please.

13        Q.   We don't need to read the whole thing.  You can see the

14     commission members, the secretary of the SUP, I assume, and commander,

15     Vasilije Mijovic.  My question is this:  Was this -- were these notes on

16     the seizure of vehicles prepared according to the provisions and the

17     rules of service?

18        A.   Well, I'm not really in position to say that, but I believe that

19     based on the individuals who actually did this job that it was done

20     according to the rules of service.

21        Q.   Now, sir, let's take a look at the next note --

22             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] or rather, I apologise,

23     Your Honours, could I please tender this document into evidence.

24             MR. HOFFMANN:  Assuming that this document also comes from

25     Mr. Mijovic directly, I have no objection.

Page 4300

 1             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D35, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  D35 is admitted into evidence.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Witness, if I understood you correctly when my learned colleague

 8     Jordash asked you about this unit, the anti-terrorist operations unit,

 9     that you said that some of its members were quartered at the

10     Beli Manastir SUP and that actually this unit introduced law and order in

11     your area.  Did I understand you correctly?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   All right.  Now, please take a look at 65 ter 2D00093.  This

14     record is --

15             MR. HOFFMANN:  I am sorry, Your Honour, and I'm a bit late in

16     rising on my feet on the last question, but I think it's at least not

17     clear from the record, the witness has testified about the JATD at two

18     different times, in 1992 and 1995, and I think the quoted question from

19     Mr. Jordash was about the earlier time-period.  And I think for the

20     record that should be clarified.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Bakrac, do you agree with the observation by

22     Mr. Hoffmann?

23             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I agree with

24     Mr. Hoffmann, and perhaps he was a bit hasty.  All I was trying to show

25     now is the date and the rooms.

Page 4301

 1        Q.   Yes, here on this record we can see that on the

 2     29th of July, 1995, the premises housing the anti-terrorist operations

 3     unit had been billeted and examined, and the equipment and furniture that

 4     had been left behind were taken over.  The premises were examined and the

 5     furniture taken over by Budimir Zecevic on behalf of the JATD; on behalf

 6     of the DB, Jovan Ralic, you said you know him; and on behalf of the SUP,

 7     Zoran Cuca.

 8             Now, were these dormitories number 1, room number 3, and number

 9     5, room number 6, and then on the next page we see room number 7 and room

10     number 8, were all these rooms the ones that you said were being used by

11     the unit and by this unit in 1992?

12        A.   Well, believe me, I really don't know which rooms these are.  I

13     never saw these rooms, I never went up there.  I think this was in the

14     attic.  I don't know how many rooms there are there are.

15        Q.   But you will agree with me that these are the same rooms, the

16     same premises that you said the unit used in 1992?

17        A.   Well, it is possible that that's the case.

18        Q.   And you will agree with me that on the 29th of July in 1995 this

19     unit was still and that that is when they handed over these units --

20     these rooms back?

21        A.   Well, I assume that's how it is, but I can't really tell at this

22     point in time.

23             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender

24     this document into evidence.

25             MR. HOFFMANN:  No objection, again assuming that this is also

Page 4302

 1     part of the Mijovic documents.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You received them from Mr. Mijovic, Mr. Bakrac?

 3             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D36, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 7             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Sir, would you now take a look at the next document, please.

 9     That's the 65 ter document 2D00088.  Before it comes up on the screen, I

10     will tell you what it is about because we are running short on time.

11     This is the control -- the control in the implementation of the order to

12     ban all liquor sales pursuant to a decision by an inspector --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's request:  Could the counsel

14     please repeat the name of the inspector.

15             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Can we just take a look at the first paragraph.  The name of the

17     inspector is Ljubomir Nikolic.  Here it would appear that he is informing

18     the commander of the ATD of the MUP RDB, in other words, it's an organ of

19     the Republic of the Serbian Krajina, Colonel Vasilije Mijovic, pursuant

20     to his order dated the 8th of July, 1995, whereby there should be an

21     order stopping the distribution of all hard liquor, wine, and beer.

22        A.   That's possible.

23        Q.   Did you know at the time that there was such an order in force?

24        A.   I believe I vaguely recall.  I can't tell exactly about the

25     dates, but I think there was an order banning the distribution of all

Page 4303

 1     hard liquor.

 2        Q.   Would you agree with me that this is one of the ways to introduce

 3     law and order in this area or any other area during war, in war time

 4     conditions?

 5        A.   That's possible, but some people would also give it another name.

 6     Prohibition.

 7        Q.   Very well.

 8             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] And now could this document be

 9     admitted into evidence.  I suppose that Mr. Hoffmann will stand up, but

10     let me tell him in advance to pre-empt what he is going to say that I

11     received this document as well from Mr. Mijovic.

12             MR. HOFFMANN:  I had one clarification again, and I may be a bit

13     late.  In your question, Mr. Bakrac referred to indeed what it says on

14     the document, the ATD of the RDB MUP.  He interpreted that as being an

15     organ of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina.  I honestly think that is

16     not the correct statement.  The RDB is a reference, as far as I know, of

17     the Republic of Serbia.  Would that --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, I see RDB in this document, state

19     security department.

20             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  I said that the

21     Republic of Serbian Krajina, the ministry of commerce and tourism, sent

22     to the commander of the ATD of MUP.  It doesn't say either Serbia or

23     Krajina.  But it is logical that in Beli Manastir the minister of

24     commerce and tourism when he sent something like that to the commander of

25     the ATD RDB of the MUP that it applies to the MUP of his own region, of

Page 4304

 1     his own state, not of a different state.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That's --

 3             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] And we also have evidence that in

 4     the Republic of Serbian Krajina there was an anti-terrorist unit.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That's interpretation of the evidence.  We are

 6     talking about admission at this moment, no objections, Mr. -- apart from

 7     how to interpret it.

 8             MR. HOFFMANN:  Yes, I just wanted to make that note, otherwise no

 9     objection.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That note has been made.

11             Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D37, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  D37 is admitted into evidence.  Now, I noticed that

14     on the document it says ATD RDB and then MUP A.  Is "MUP A" anything

15     different from MUP?

16             MR. HOFFMANN:  I think that's just a matter of grammar.

17             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] This is one of the cases that we

18     have in our language, so MUP in -- it's the degenerative.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No problem, please proceed.

20             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm trying to squeeze

21     in everything in the next 10 or 15 minutes in order to finish with this

22     witness.

23        Q.   Witness, could you please look at the following exhibit I'm going

24     to show you.  It's 65 ter 2D00084.  Since we don't have much time, while

25     we are waiting for the document to appear, it's a newspaper article that

Page 4305

 1     I received from Mr. Mijovic.  It appeared in "Expres Politika" newspaper,

 2     and I will make sure to receive the original from "Expres Politika"

 3     because the document that I have does not feature the date.  Are you

 4     familiar with the name Jesla Tinac [phoen] who appears to be a

 5     journalist?

 6        A.   No.

 7             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this document is

 8     another one that I received from Mr. Mijovic.  It appeared in

 9     "Politika Expres," and I'm going to ask the witness whether he knows that

10     in the house of Dusko Salajic a lot of weapons had been found, that some

11     very dangerous poisons had been found.

12        Q.   Are you familiar with that?

13        A.   Yes, I know if you went to anybody's house in Baranja at the time

14     you would have found some weapons there.  I did not hear about the

15     poison, though.

16        Q.   Sir, do you have any reason to doubt - and I'm going to read to

17     you just the beginning of this text - the special anti-terrorist and

18     sabotage unit of the MUP of the RSK headed by Colonel Vasilije Mijovic

19     brought peace and order to Baranja, and the citizens of Baranja can now

20     breathe a sigh of relief.

21             Do you have any reason to doubt what is written in the text?

22        A.   I believe that if that text had appeared a year or two before

23     then it would have been more accurate and that would have been a more

24     accurate description of the unit at the time.  It may be my subjective

25     assessment of the situation, but I don't think that the description fits

Page 4306

 1     the time when it was published.

 2        Q.   Do you have any doubt -- any reason to doubt that the unit in

 3     question is the ATD of the Republic of Serbian Krajina?

 4        A.   I'm not talking about the unit as such.  I am talking about some

 5     of the people who belonged to that unit and whom I had an opportunity to

 6     meet.

 7        Q.   In other words, you are speaking about some individuals?

 8        A.   Yes, individuals.  Yes, about some individuals, yes.

 9        Q.   Do you know that individuals who violated the rules of the unit

10     were placed under arrest?  Are you aware of that?

11        A.   Yes, I heard that some were arrested, but there were also others

12     who were not.

13        Q.   In general terms we can say that the description of the unit is

14     accurate but that there were some exceptions and among those exceptions

15     some were arrested and some were not; would that be true?

16        A.   No, I wouldn't agree with that.  They also ill-treated civilian

17     population.  They did.

18        Q.   Individuals, you mean?

19        A.   Individuals.  I never saw the whole unit beating somebody up.

20        Q.   When it comes to the ill-treatment of the local population, did

21     you have in mind local Serbs?

22        A.   Both Serbs and non-Serbs.

23        Q.   Sir --

24             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we please move into private

25     session, Your Honours, for the next few questions.

Page 4307

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We of move into private session.

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4308

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

Page 4309

 1             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Witness, will you allow for the possibility that in 1995, after

 3     the Operations Flash and Storm, there was an increased engagement of

 4     Serbian agents in view of the large number of refugees and the danger

 5     that threatened the territory of Serbia?

 6        A.   That should have been the case, of course.  And I believe that

 7     indeed that was the case.  It was an exceptionally critical moment and an

 8     exceptionally complex situation in a very small area.

 9        Q.   Can we then say that the state security services of Sombor

10     stepped up its activity in that period in your territory?

11        A.   I can't give you my assessment of that.

12        Q.   In 1995, did you ever see a formal legal document, a piece of

13     paper, by which the state security service of Beli Manastir fell under

14     the jurisdiction under the state security service of Sombor?

15        A.   No, never.

16        Q.   Thank you very much, Witness.

17             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I've tried to

18     eliminate some of the questions.  I've tried to finish as soon as

19     possible to leave some room to my learned friend Mr. Hoffmann.  I have a

20     lot -- many other questions, but I prioritised them.  And let me just

21     consult with my client briefly.

22             MR. HOFFMANN:  Just a procedural matter, I think the --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, Mr. Bakrac is just ...

24             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, under one I did not

25     tender into evidence the article which is 65 ter 2D00084, and I'm doing

Page 4310

 1     it now.  I'm correcting my mistake.  I believe that Mr. Hoffmann is

 2     nodding that he will not have any objections to the admission of this

 3     document.

 4             MR. HOFFMANN:  That's correct.  And that was my point why I was

 5     on the feet.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             Madam Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit D38, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  D38 is admitted into evidence.

10             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] And just one more question for the

11     witness, Your Honours.

12        Q.   Witness, do you know that towards the end of January 1992 and the

13     beginning of February 1992 one large terrorist group from Baranja crossed

14     the Dunav at Apatin, and they consisted of 15 Croats dressed in JNA

15     uniforms, and the intention was to blow up the bridge between Bezdin and

16     Baranja?

17        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with that event.

18        Q.   Do you know that some of the members of the group were arrested

19     and tried?

20        A.   Yes, I know that.  The group's name was Macin [phoen].

21        Q.   And when it comes to this event, would you say that this

22     information about the arrest of terrorists from Croatia who had intended

23     to blow up the bridge would that be a good justification for stepping up

24     security and engagements of the SDB of Serbian Sombor?

25        A.   In view of the fact that this happened in the territory of the

Page 4311

 1     Republic of Serbia, it's only logical.  But I believe that you mentioned

 2     that a complete group was arrested.  As far as I know, only some of the

 3     members were arrested and the others fled.

 4        Q.   Yes.  They fled to Hungary.  You are saying in the territory of

 5     Serbia, but they had arrived from Baranja; right?

 6        A.   Yes.  Baranja has a very specific terrain, Kopacki Rit, that

 7     we've already mentioned.  In some seasons it is impossible to control or

 8     keep under control the whole of the terrain because the Danube floods a

 9     lot of the area.  They took an opportunity of such an occasion and used a

10     vehicle that could pass through the swampy grounds.  They had adjusted

11     it; they had painted it; they had marked it with the JNA insignia; and

12     that's how they could cross over to the territory of Serbia unnoticed.

13        Q.   Therefore, you will agree with me that for that reason Baranja

14     was a very interesting area in terms of security, it was very interesting

15     to the state security services of Serbia in light of the security of its

16     own border.

17        A.   [No verbal response].

18             MR. BAKRAC:  Thank you very much, Witness, for your patience and

19     for your answers.

20             Your Honours, I have no further questions for this witness.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

22             Mr. Hoffmann, how much time would you need?

23             MR. HOFFMANN:  I have just two or three questions I think.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Two or three questions.

25             MR. HOFFMANN:  And maybe one question even for the Defence which

Page 4312

 1     relates to Exhibit D33.  I would not bother the witness with it if

 2     potentially there could be agreement because the translation is not

 3     complete of this first Exhibit that was used today about, A, the stamp on

 4     the document has not been translated, and also the person that signed the

 5     document is not translated.  I don't know if the Defence as the tendering

 6     party has any information about that, otherwise I will not bother the

 7     witness with that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  If it is a matter of translation, if it appears on

 9     the original, then seems that I wouldn't expect major problems.

10             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't see the

11     translation at this moment.  I would propose to submit the interpretation

12     of the stamp, or maybe the interpreters can help us with the

13     interpretation of what is depicted in the stamp.  It's very clear.  I can

14     submit a revised version, or maybe we can ask the interpreters in the

15     booths.  I leave it in your hands, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Usually, unless there is a necessity to do so, we

17     will not ask the interpreters to act as translators in court.  But if

18     it's just a matter of parts not being translated, then I think we can

19     settle that.  And I don't know whether the witness could add anything to

20     a missing portion of the translation.

21             MR. HOFFMANN:  I may have just one question on this document to

22     the witness.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please, have it on the screen then.

24             MR. HOFFMANN:  It would be Exhibit D33.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 4313

 1             MR. HOFFMANN:  Just to clarify, I'm a bit lost at the moment.

 2     Are we still in private session, or are we back in open?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We are at this moment in open session.

 4             MR. HOFFMANN:  Okay.  Thank you very much.

 5                           Re-examination by Mr. Hoffmann:

 6        Q.   Sir, if you can briefly just look at that stamp on the document,

 7     I would simply ask you if you have seen a similar stamp during your time

 8     that you spent in office between 1991 and 1995 at any time?

 9        A.   No, I did not see anything similar.  I did not see a similar

10     stamp.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Then a quick question:  One document was put to you,

12     and there is, I think, no need to bring it up again.  It was about the

13     person of Stevan Nadj.  My question to you is:  Is your own name a common

14     name?

15        A.   Yes, it is.

16        Q.   And have you ever been officially charged with any involvement

17     with a disappearance of that person?

18        A.   No, never.

19        Q.   In relation to the newspaper article we saw a few minutes ago

20     which is now Exhibit D38, you have testified in court and in your

21     statement that according to your knowledge Vaso Mijovic was sent to the

22     region by the Serbian state security.  Do you -- did you ever hear at the

23     time that Mijovic was formally working for the RSK police or the RSK MUP?

24        A.   No, never.  He used a Serbian helicopter for example.  I don't

25     even know whether any of the units or the state security of Krajina had

Page 4314

 1     Gazela helicopters at their disposal.

 2             MR. HOFFMANN:  Thank you.  I have no further questions but just

 3     two comments on two exhibits.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, let's first see whether there are any

 5     questions.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7                           Questioned by the Court:

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps I should go into private session.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4315











11 Pages 4315-4318 redacted. Private session.















Page 4319

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

24             MR. JORDASH:  Perhaps I can deal with this in open session.  I

25     wanted to put the Court on notice that there is almost certainly going to

Page 4320

 1     be an application to adjourn that witness the Prosecution have just

 2     referred to whose pseudonym I've just forgotten.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel kindly speak into the microphone

 4     thank you.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  JF-054.  And I think that Your Honour Picard will

 6     be aware of this issue because I think it's an issue which has arisen in

 7     the Perisic trial and the --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly speak into the microphone, thank you.

 9             MR. JORDASH: -- and arguments which we anticipate.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We are not going to -- if there's any -- this

11     witness was -- we turn into private session again for one second.  Could

12     we turn into private session.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

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22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 4321

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 8             MR. HOFFMANN:  I'll be very brief, and I apologise to the

 9     interpreters.

10             You rightly noted that there was a discrepancy between the

11     English transcript provided for the video that was played and what was

12     actually recorded on the record here.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  So we have to find out what's the appropriate --

14     let's -- if we deal with this matter next week, nothing would be lost,

15     would there?  Therefore, both the one who is the wrongdoer and the same

16     time I'm trying to defend all those who have already suffered for 16 and

17     a half minutes now overtime, I apologise.  By the way, not only for the

18     interpreters, but there are more persons assisting us; security; it is

19     technicians; it is transcriber.  I hope that you have some understanding

20     that if you have got only two days a week, in a case, that sometimes the

21     pressure upon finishing the testimony of a witness is a bit more heavy,

22     but this is not an excuse, just an explanation.

23             We adjourn, and we will resume on Thursday the 22nd of -- no,

24     Wednesday the 21st of April, quarter past 2.00, in Courtroom II.

25                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.16 p.m.,

Page 4322

 1                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 21st day of

 2                           April, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.