Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4365

 1                           Friday, 23 April 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

 8     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is the case number

 9     IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that there were no preliminaries.  The

12     Chamber has received a -- a confidential memo, a proofing note for the

13     next witness, who is not seeking protective measures.  Then we will wait

14     for Mr. Milovanovic to be escorted into the courtroom.

15             Yes, Mr. Groome.

16             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, while we're waiting, just so that the

17     record is complete from yesterday, General Milovanovic informed me

18     yesterday evening that he has received members of the Perisic Defence

19     team and the Karadzic Defence team pursuant to their request and has

20     answered their questions.  And the other point I wanted to raise with the

21     Chamber is that General Milovanovic was unable to get through all of the

22     binders.  He is prepared to do that over the weekend, and I was going to

23     propose that he be provided that, but perhaps maybe sometime before the

24     end of the day, I could address the Chamber with the remainder of my

25     proposal.  Thank you.

Page 4366

 1                           [The witness entered court]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Milovanovic.  Before you give

 3     evidence in this court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that

 4     you make a solemn declaration, of which the text will now be handed down

 5     to you by Madam Usher.  May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 7     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Milovanovic.  Please be seated.

 9             Mr. Milovanovic, if I address you as "Mr. Milovanovic," rather

10     than as "General Milovanovic," this is not in any way expressing

11     disrespect for your rank.  I'm used to address witnesses always by "Mr.,"

12     unless they appear as expert witnesses, where the title is of direct

13     relevance for the testimony.  You're here as a witness of fact, and

14     that's the reason why I address you, as I address all other witnesses, as

15     Mr. Milovanovic.

16             Mr. Groome or Mr. Weber, are you ready to examine the witness?

17             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Milovanovic, you'll now first be examined by

19     Mr. Groome.  Mr. Groome is counsel for the Prosecution.  He is at your

20     right.

21             Please proceed.

22                           WITNESS:  MANOJLO MILOVANOVIC

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24                           Examination by Mr. Groome:

25        Q.   Mr. Milovanovic, you are appearing here today pursuant to a

Page 4367

 1     subpoena issued by this Chamber on the 4th of February, 2010; is that

 2     correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, General, you have had a lengthy professional military

 5     career.  It is important that the Chamber is aware of it, but not

 6     necessary that we discuss it in any great detail here.  After you arrived

 7     in The Hague, were you asked to review a summary of your professional

 8     assignments compiled from your prior testimony?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Were you given an opportunity to make corrections to it and then

11     presented with a summary that you considered accurate?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, could I ask that document number 5286

14     be placed on the screen.

15        Q.   And, General, when it appears on the screen, I'd ask you to

16     review it and tell us is this the document that summarises your

17     professional qualifications.  It's a two-page document, General.  I will

18     show you the second page in a moment.  There's a signature at the top of

19     that page.  Do you recognise that signature?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Whose signature is that?

22        A.   Mine.

23             MR. GROOME:  And could we go to the second page, please.

24        Q.   Do you see your signature on this page?

25        A.   I do.

Page 4368

 1             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders

 2     this summary of General Milovanovic's professional assignments into

 3     evidence as a public exhibit.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

 5             Madam Registrar, could you please assign a number to the

 6     document.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P3 --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have something to add, something

 9     that I have forgotten yesterday.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  P375, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  If you already assign a number and then

12     we'll hear Mr. Milovanovic's observations.  The number would be,

13     Madam Registrar ...?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  P375, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Milovanovic, if you would like to add anything,

16     please do so.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yesterday I forgot that in the

18     meantime, in 1971, I completed as a part-time student the JNA school of

19     politics.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then that is now on the record that you'd like

21     to add this to what is in this document.  P375 is admitted into evidence.

22             MR. GROOME:

23        Q.   General, are you willing to answer any additional questions

24     regarding your professional career that the Chamber or the Defence may

25     put to you?

Page 4369

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now, I want to show you several video-clips from a documentary

 3     directed by Filip Svarm and shown widely on television in Serbia.  The

 4     name of the documentary is "The Unit."  The documentary had three parts.

 5     I will structure my questions to you here today around your interview

 6     which is contained in the first and second parts of the documentary.  I

 7     would like to begin by asking you a few questions generally about this

 8     interview that you gave for the documentary.

 9             First, can you tell us approximately when it was you gave this

10     interview?

11        A.   I'm not sure of exact time, but I think it was sometime in 2007.

12        Q.   And in preparation for this interview, did you review any

13     materials?

14        A.   I saw that clip, that film.

15        Q.   What I'm asking you now is before you gave the interview that has

16     been video-recorded, did you review any materials to prepare for the

17     questions you were asked on the video?

18        A.   I don't think I did.  First of all, the film that I saw yesterday

19     was -- is a compilation of several statements of mine, and then that was

20     turned into a documentary.  Now, as for my preparation, nothing special

21     really.  There is no archives of the Main Staff of the army, so it's

22     really just recollections.  That's all.

23        Q.   Now, one of the first topics you discuss in the documentary is

24     Arkan.  I would like to show you a clip from part 1 of the documentary,

25     and I will ask you to comment on certain aspects of it afterwards.

Page 4370

 1             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask Mr. Laugel to please play clip

 2     65 ter 2608.1 -- I'm sorry, clip 1 of 65 ter number 2608.1.  It is a clip

 3     that appears in the original documentary at 58 minutes, 15 seconds to

 4     58 minutes, 52 seconds.  And for the benefit of the booth, it is marked

 5     as clip 1 on the handout given earlier today.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             "Manojlo Milovanovic:  By the time I had arrived at the front

 8     line on the 11th of May, Arkan had already finished the job in Bijeljina

 9     and Zvornik.

10             "Zuti:  There were always problems between us and the

11     Republika Srpska army.

12             "Manojlo Milovanovic:  Each time the Serbian Volunteers' Guard

13     returned from Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian Krajina, apart

14     from transporters and tanks, there was always a large number of container

15     lorries in the column and that was their characteristic."

16             MR. GROOME:

17        Q.   General Milovanovic, it seems that the first part of your comment

18     was missed by the interpretation.  Perhaps it was the less-than-perfect

19     quality of the audio.  Do you recall referring to Arkan as being a

20     separate problem at the beginning of that clip?  Did you say that?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Now, my first question to you is whether your comments that we've

23     just listened to are accurate and truthful.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now, when you say in the clip that "Arkan is a separate problem,"

Page 4371

 1     can you describe to the Chamber what it is you meant by this.  Describe

 2     the problem that you believed Arkan represented.

 3        A.   It wasn't just Arkan, but all paramilitaries that we found in

 4     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  All of them represented a problem.  First of

 5     all, because they entered the war without authorisation.  Second, because

 6     the goal of their participation in the war was not some sort of a freedom

 7     of Serbian nation or struggle for Serbian nation.  The purpose of their

 8     participation in the war was to find an occupation and to pump as much

 9     wealth out of it as possible.

10             Sometime in 1991 and 1992 paramilitaries were typical for the

11     former SFRY.  There were no authorities in -- proper authorities in power

12     in the SFRY at the time.  There were many political parties established

13     and all of them were fighting for power, political power.  And the

14     quickest and surest way to come to power was to awaken some new

15     patriotism, as a result of which illegal armed groups were established.

16     And they acted against other ethnic group, regardless of which ethnic

17     group that was and whether that ethnic group armed the Serbs in any way.

18        Q.   General, can I ask you to be precise in who were -- was the

19     victim or victims of the problem that Arkan created, both in terms of

20     ethnicity and both in terms of -- also in terms of geographical location.

21        A.   In Bosnia and Herzegovina, the victims were first of all Muslims

22     and then Croats in addition to them.  In the territory of the former

23     Serbian Krajina, the victims were Croats.  However, when the wealth of

24     Muslims and Croats in certain area disappeared, then it was the Serbs who

25     became victims.  When the Army of Republika Srpska was established --

Page 4372

 1        Q.   General --

 2        A.   -- and once that army entered an area --

 3        Q.   Before -- could I just ask you a few more questions about the

 4     nature of the problem and then I'm going to ask you about the response of

 5     the Army of Republika Srpska.  You refer to the victims or have

 6     identified them as Muslims in Bosnia.  Can you be a bit more precise in

 7     terms of municipalities within Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the point in time

 8     that I'd ask you to focus on is at the beginning of the conflict in

 9     Bosnia.

10        A.   Even before the conflict officially broke out, that is to say,

11     before the 6th of April in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Arkan personally

12     together with his group of Tigers, that's what his soldiers were known

13     as, he started cleansing Bijeljina.  We saw in the first clip that there

14     was persecution of Muslims.  We saw that there was a dead man in

15     Bijeljina.  And people saw that clip many times.  In addition to looting,

16     they also started killing.  So I hope I answered your question.  You

17     asked for specific examples.

18             Initially --

19        Q.   Yes --

20        A.   -- Arkan was active only in Bijeljina and nowhere else in

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina until 1995.

22        Q.   Now, did you ever hear a public statement made by Arkan speaking

23     about the JNA's garrison commander Colonel Masala with respect to events

24     in Bijeljina?

25        A.   Yes.  I did hear that public statement of his in 1996, when he

Page 4373

 1     declared that Colonel Masala was a traitor of the Serbian people because

 2     he prevented him from doing what he wanted to Bijeljina.  And Masala was

 3     the commander of the JNA garrison there.

 4        Q.   And did Arkan go on to say what it was he wanted to do in

 5     Bijeljina that Colonel Masala prevented him from doing?

 6        A.   He didn't say what he was going to do.  He simply said -- or

 7     rather, I need to describe the context and we may be wasting time.  In

 8     1996 there were elections taking place in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  A

 9     woman who represented his party, the Party of Serbian Unity, was a

10     candidate among others for the president of Republika Srpska.  And in her

11     pre-election speech when she addressed the nation, she glorified Arkan's

12     accomplishments from the struggle of Serbian people in Semberija,

13     Western Bosnia, and so on.

14             I made a call to that TV broadcast and denied any military

15     achievements of Arkan, especially not in Majevica.  Then Arkan's reaction

16     followed.  He didn't attack me, rather he defended himself.  He said that

17     he had not completed his job in Bijeljina only because he had been

18     prevented by a Serbian traitor, Colonel Masala.

19        Q.   Now, you go on in the clip to describe how each time the Serbian

20     Volunteers' Guard returned from the Republika Srpska and the Republic of

21     Serbian Krajina they had shipping containers as part of their convoy and

22     this was related to looting activity.  Have I understood the import of

23     your statement correctly?

24        A.   Yes, you understood it well.

25        Q.   Now --

Page 4374

 1        A.   As for the trucks, I personally discovered them.

 2        Q.   I was simply -- that was going to be my next question.  Is this

 3     something that you personally observed?  Can you please describe when,

 4     where, and what it was that you observed.

 5        A.   On the 23rd of July, 1995, I was in Han Pijesak to see off

 6     General Zivanovic, and I was on my way back to Drvar where my command

 7     post was.  In Obudovac I came across three BOVs, armoured personnel

 8     carriers.  It was evening and they had rotation lights on.  However,

 9     between them there were a couple of trucks, say there would be personnel

10     carrier and then a truck or two trucks and then a personnel carrier and

11     so on.  So a couple of trucks.  And there was a mixed check-point of the

12     army and the police of the Army of Republika Srpska.

13             I stopped at the check-point and I asked the policeman whose

14     personnel carriers those were.  And the young man there said, "Arkan's."

15     And I said, "What about the trucks?"  And he said, "Also his."  I asked

16     him what were they transporting in the trucks.  And he said, "I didn't

17     check all of the trucks, just the last one, and there were a lot of

18     appliances there."  I realised that this was a case of looting because

19     Arkan had without any invitation previously come to Kljuc and he joined

20     in the combat of the soldiers of the Army of Republika Srpska in the

21     Storm operation.

22        Q.   General --

23        A.   Upon arriving in Banja Luka, I asked to meet --

24        Q.   -- could I ask you, did you learn where these convoys were going,

25     what was their destination?

Page 4375

 1        A.   They were on their way to Serbia.

 2        Q.   Now, during this period that you were aware Arkan was

 3     transporting looted goods from the conflict area, were there operational

 4     border checks at the border between Bosnia and Serbia?

 5        A.   Yes.  There were border crossings, yes.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, it is my intention to work with each

 7     of the two clips from the first part of this documentary and then tender

 8     them as a single exhibit unless the Chamber prefers that I do otherwise.

 9     For the sake of a clear record, I refer to the clip I've just used as

10     65 ter clip 2608.1, clip 1.

11        Q.   Now, in the documentary you say that:

12             "Arkan had already finished the john in Bijeljina and Zvornik."

13             My first question on this basis is -- I'm sorry, on what basis

14     did -- I'm sorry, I think we've covered those next two questions.  What

15     I'd now ask you:  What was the response of the VRS to the problem of

16     paramilitaries as you have described?

17        A.   The Main Staff, or rather, the 12 officers who were to become

18     members of the future Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska gathered

19     in Han Pijesak on the 11th of May, 1992, in the afternoon hours.  There

20     were four generals and eight colonels and lieutenant-colonels.  All of

21     them were people who by way of various orders and presidential decrees of

22     the JNA were transferred to the military district in Sarajevo.  However,

23     by the time when we arrived there on the 11th of May, there had already

24     been issued an order of the Rump Presidency of the former SFRY that the

25     JNA was to withdraw from some areas, but to remain in Bosnia and

Page 4376

 1     Herzegovina until 1997 to protect equally interests of all three nations.

 2     However, by the time we arrived there it had already fallen apart, that

 3     plan.  And when we met there, we spent the whole night discussing what to

 4     do.

 5             It was still not known who was to be the commander, but there was

 6     some hints.  Since we didn't have any goals for the war and we knew that

 7     we were on the brink of the war, we formulated 21 tasks or principles as

 8     to what the future army was supposed to do.  I would like to reiterate

 9     that the Army of Republika Srpska was the seventh and the last armed

10     force that was established in the territory of the former SFRY.  It was

11     the last one because before that we had been expecting that the JNA would

12     protect the Serbian nation.  However, in 1993 the eighth armed force was

13     established --

14        Q.   General, I apologise for interrupting you and I will allow you to

15     make more comments on some of this general background later on, but just

16     in the interests of time was there a -- was one of the tasks that members

17     of the Main Staff or these senior officers that you've spoken about, was

18     one of those tasks to attempt to either subordinate these paramilitaries

19     into regular troops or to expel them from the territory under the

20     authority of the Army of Republika Srpska?

21        A.   One of those 21 tasks was to gather, or rather, to call all the

22     commanders of these paramilitary formations and they were at the level of

23     a group and even at the level of a brigade, and to ask them to join the

24     regular Army of Republika Srpska or to place themselves under the command

25     of the Main Staff.  Those who refused to do that were to be expelled, and

Page 4377

 1     if they were to put up armed resistance, they were to be defeated.  Based

 2     on that decision, General Mladic, on the 28th of July, issued an order

 3     concerning this.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

 5             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I take you back to one of your previous

 7     questions.  You asked, in relation to the looted goods, whether there

 8     were operational border checks at the border between Bosnia and Serbia.

 9     And then the answer was:  "Yes, there were border crossings."  Now, that

10     seems not to be unambiguous.  Therefore, crossing a border could be a

11     place where people are crossing and where there are checks, although

12     that's not what the answer says.  So I'm not certain that the answer is

13     an answer to your question.  Could you please clarify.

14             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

15        Q.   General, you've heard Judge Orie's request for a clarification.

16     Can you describe what was -- what precisely was at the border between

17     Bosnia and Serbia?  What would -- and who staffed that border crossing?

18        A.   Border crossings were organised in a typical manner.  There were

19     police there present to check persons and there were also customs officer

20     to check what was the goods that were transported.  Normally, first the

21     police would check your personal documents and then customs people would

22     check the goods.

23             As for the Republika Srpska, we had joint police, civilian and

24     military police there.  The military police was there because there was

25     an order of the army commander, General Mladic, that all men fit for

Page 4378

 1     military service had to remain in Bosnia-Herzegovina, were not allowed to

 2     leave the territory, because they could be mobilised.  This is why

 3     military policemen were present at all border crossings who turned

 4     back --

 5        Q.   General --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please come closer to the

 7     microphone.

 8             MR. GROOME:

 9        Q.   They're asking -- the interpreters are asking if you could speak

10     more closely to the microphone.

11             Now, General, on the -- were the police that were at the border,

12     were there Serb police?  In other words, were there members of the

13     Ministry of Interior police of Serbia on the Serb side of that border?

14        A.   You mean on the Serbian side?

15        Q.   Yes, sir.

16        A.   Whenever I crossed, I saw people in blue uniforms, which means

17     that they were police members, members of MUP.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             Now, returning to dealing with paramilitaries, are you familiar

20     with a person by the name of Captain Dragan?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And did you have a personal encounter with him with respect to

23     this effort to deal with the problem of paramilitaries?

24        A.   I had contacts with Captain Dragan by way of means of

25     communication and also by correspondence.  When we decided to expel him

Page 4379

 1     as well, I was tasked with doing that and I did it in a military way.  I

 2     issued -- I gave him an assignment and I told him if he were to complete

 3     it, then he could remain in the Army of Republika Srpska, and if he were

 4     not to complete it, he had to leave.  He didn't complete his assignment

 5     and he had to get his things and leave.

 6        Q.   Now, General, can we just get some basic information about this.

 7     Can we get an approximate date, your best recollection of the date, and

 8     the precise location of where this interaction between you and

 9     Captain Dragan took place?

10        A.   I saw Captain Dragan only once in my life, and that was at a --

11     at the parade of the Army of Republika Srpska on the 28th of June.  It

12     wasn't really a personal contact.  He just was part of that parade that

13     passed by the Main Staff of VRS, and then later on, when ARSK was

14     established, the Army of Krajina, I gave him an assignment to track down

15     and to destroy, to eliminate, one of the paramilitary leaders who was

16     active in the villages in that area.  If necessary, I can give you his

17     name.

18        Q.   Yes, please.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness also tell us the year.

20             I'm sorry to interrupt.  You talked about the 28th of June, of

21     what year?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 28th of June, 1995.

23             As for my contact by correspondence and by radio with

24     Captain Dragan, that was in June of 1992, at the very beginning of the

25     war.

Page 4380

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you finish your answer to -- in respect of the

 2     name you said you could give to us.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I gave him an assignment to

 4     eliminate Naser Oric, the commander of Muslim forces who were active in

 5     the central Drina Valley area.  From March of 1992 -- rather, from

 6     February of 1992 to March of 1993, he destroyed about 156 Serbian

 7     villages and killed about 3.200 civilians.

 8             MR. GROOME:

 9        Q.   Now, you were -- refer --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

11             MR. GROOME:  I'm sorry.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I check, 28th of June, and then the contact by

13     correspondence and radio, that was at the end of -- I thought I heard

14     something different but if it's correct then I -- was it the end of June

15     or was another year mentioned there?

16             MR. GROOME:  Perhaps I could clarify --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             Perhaps, Mr. Milovanovic, I asked you about the 28th of what

19     year, and then you said 1995.  Then you said, "As for my contact by

20     correspondence and radio," you said, "that was at the end of" -- could

21     you please repeat what you then said.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My contact by radio and by

23     correspondence or by dispatches with Captain Dragan took place in the

24     second half of June 1992.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I remember that I heard the 1992.

Page 4381

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. GROOME:

 3        Q.   Now, I want to just focus precisely on this period of time in

 4     June of 1992 for the moment.  Do you know where Captain Dragan was active

 5     at that particular point in time?

 6        A.   Up until then Captain Dragan was active in the area of the

 7     Knin Krajina.  Once the Vance-Owen Plan was implemented and UNPA zones

 8     were created in Croatia, they were to be some sort of safe havens

 9     provided by the UN to the Serbian people living there.

10        Q.   But at the end of June, where was -- where was Captain Dragan, to

11     your knowledge?

12        A.   From the Republic of Serbian Krajina, Captain Dragan moved on to

13     the Zvornik area, to a place called Divic.  That's some 8 to 10

14     kilometres to the south of Zvornik.

15        Q.   Now, when he was in Zvornik, is this also in the end of June of

16     1992?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And is this the location which the decision was taken that he

19     must be expelled from?

20        A.   No.  The decision was made at the Main Staff.  He headquartered

21     himself in Divic and established a training camp for members of a

22     sabotage unit or something like that.

23        Q.   Do you know the approximate size of Captain Dragan's unit when it

24     was in Divic in Zvornik?

25        A.   I have already told you that I gave him an assignment.  The

Page 4382

 1     assignment was given to him by way of a dispatch.  He told me that he

 2     would carry out an assignment, but he asked for some resources which I

 3     couldn't provide, not even an American army had that kind of equipment,

 4     special radios, special explosives, special rifles that I had heard of

 5     for the first time at that time.  We scheduled a meeting in Milici, he

 6     and I.  I came to Milici and he wasn't there.  The people who were there

 7     told me that he had to travel to Zvornik and that he would be waiting for

 8     me there.  I went to Zvornik, he wasn't there either.  I realised that

 9     the man was making a fool out of me.

10             In Zvornik I was told that he had gone to Divic.  I went to

11     Divic, he wasn't there either.  In Divic I found 20-odd people with red

12     berets.  Their uniforms resembled the ones that he had in Knin.  So I

13     said to these guys -- I asked them where they were from.  Most of them

14     were from Serbia.  Some were from the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  And

15     there were even our people from Republika Srpska.  I told them, "You go

16     back to your units or to your homes and tell Captain Dragan that he needs

17     to disappear from here as well."

18             I went back to the Main Staff on the same day, and on television

19     I saw that Captain Dragan was to have a programme where he talked about a

20     fund that was to take care of the wounded people in that area.  That's

21     all I knew about Captain Dragan --

22        Q.   Now, General --

23        A.   -- and the one time that I saw him was in that parade.

24        Q.   Now, did you form an opinion with respect to the professionalism

25     of the 20 men with red berets that you found in Divic?  Were they, in

Page 4383

 1     your view, professional soldiers?

 2        A.   No, they were not professional soldiers.  Later on, the people

 3     who observed this training of his told me that, for example, he trained

 4     those people to jump out of cars in high chase and to do some activities

 5     that were anything but training them to use a rifle.

 6        Q.   Now, the second area you discuss in the documentary is your first

 7     meeting with the accused in this case, Jovica Stanisic.  I'm going to ask

 8     you to look at the monitor in front of you as this is played.

 9             MR. GROOME:  I would ask Mr. Laugel to now play 65 ter 2608.1,

10     clip number 2.  This second clip is 45 seconds long and it commences, on

11     the original tape, 1 hour, 4 minutes in the completed version of the

12     documentary.  It is also clip 2 in the handout to the interpreters.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             "Manojlo Milovanovic:  Badza was in uniform and Stanisic in plain

15     clothes.  I asked General Panic who these people were.  He told me that

16     it was Stanisic - he only said that he was from the State Security

17     Service, he did not say that he was the chief of anything else.  I was

18     astounded by Stanisic's knowledge about our situation Podrinje.  Some

19     things he even knew better than I did.  He knew who was fighting in which

20     village, who was in command, who ... I really was a bit amazed."

21             MR. GROOME:

22        Q.   Now that we have viewed 65 ter 2608.1, clip number 2, could you

23     please tell us to the best of your recollection when this meeting

24     occurred.

25        A.   I think the meeting occurred at -- on the 23rd of January, 1993,

Page 4384

 1     at the river Tara --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  At Mount Tara.

 3             MR. GROOME:

 4        Q.   And can you tell us the precise name of where the -- or the

 5     location where the meeting was held.  Was it held in a particular

 6     building?

 7        A.   Hotel Omorika, Mount Tara, the Republic of Serbia.

 8        Q.   And now, General, are your comments as recorded in this clip

 9     accurate and truthful?

10        A.   Yes, they are.

11        Q.   And the person that you describe as Badza, do we see him at all

12     in this documentary or in that last clip?

13        A.   First of all, I wanted to tell you that on the screen I wasn't

14     able to see when the translation of the spoken parts ends.  In any case,

15     one can see Badza at the very beginning of the footage.

16        Q.   So the first person that is visible is Badza, the person you

17     refer to as Badza?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And can you tell us how was he dressed during this meeting?

20        A.   The same way we could see him on the footage.

21        Q.   And did you have -- did you ever say anything to him or did he

22     ever say anything to you over the course of this meeting or in the time

23     before or after this meeting?

24        A.   We greeted each other at the meeting.  We listened to Jovica, and

25     General Panic, Badza, he, and I discussed matters whilst the other

Page 4385

 1     generals and colonels worked on other issues in different rooms.  As you

 2     could see on the footage, I was quite amazed with the extent of

 3     Stanisic's knowledge and information about particular areas in Bosnia.  I

 4     wasn't very familiar with Eastern Bosnian.  I was quite amazed to hear

 5     him speak about the the village of Klotijevac, which is close to Skelani.

 6     Following that, I asked General Panic who this person was.  He told me

 7     that he was from the police, although he did not specify what his name

 8     was.  I asked Badza who he was.  He said, "I arrived here with the boss."

 9             Later on in the evening, when I returned to the Main Staff, I

10     told everyone what I could see at Mount Tara.  Describing Jovica, they

11     told me, "Well, that was Jovica Stanisic, the head of the state security

12     sector in Serbia."  Badza did not tell me that.  It was the people at the

13     Main Staff who shared that information with me.  That was my first

14     encounter with Jovica Stanisic.

15        Q.   And at the meeting in the Main Staff afterward, was there any

16     discussion about who Badza was?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   And when Badza made the statement about "here with the boss," did

19     he make any gesture indicating who he was referring to?

20        A.   He did not, otherwise I would have concluded there and then that

21     Jovica was his boss.  He merely said, "I'm here with the boss."

22        Q.   And from what you could see, was there anyone else with Badza

23     that appeared to come or leave with Badza or associate with him over the

24     course of the meeting?

25        A.   Sir, again I have a problem with the monitor.  I can't see -- I

Page 4386

 1     can't follow the transcript, hence I can't see when interpretation is

 2     finished and when I can start answering.  As I said, save for Badza and

 3     Jovica, there was no one else with them.

 4             Thank you.

 5             It was Panic, Jovica, Badza, and I sitting around the table, the

 6     four of us.

 7        Q.   Sir, after this meeting, did you yourself, based on your own

 8     observations, form an opinion with respect to the relationship between

 9     Badza and Jovica Stanisic?

10        A.   To tell you the truth, I never thought about those people again

11     until I met Jovica later on at a number of other meetings.

12        Q.   Did Badza ever tell you what his responsibilities were or what

13     his job was?

14        A.   We never discussed his or my job.  I knew that Badza, at the

15     time, commanded some special units or that he was responsible for the

16     special units of the MUP of Serbia.

17        Q.   Now, the MUP of Serbia has two divisions, the public security

18     sector and the state security sector.  Do you know whether the public

19     security sector has special units?

20        A.   The public security sector?

21        Q.   Yes, sir.

22        A.   I don't know.  I wasn't familiar with the structure of the

23     Serbian MUP.  I was familiar with the structure of the RS MUP, though.

24        Q.   Did the RS MUP public security sector have special units?

25        A.   It had two special police brigades which were mostly used in

Page 4387

 1     combat.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders

 3     these two clips from 65 ter 2608.1.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

 5             Madam Registrar, would you please assign a number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Two clips of 65 ter 2608.1 become Exhibit P376,

 7     Your Honour.

 8             MR. GROOME:

 9        Q.   Now, General, I would like to play --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

11                      [Stanisic Defence counsel and Accused Stanisic confer]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P376 is admitted into evidence.

13             MR. GROOME:

14        Q.   General, I would now like to play you a longer clip in which you

15     talk about an operation known as Pauk.

16             MR. GROOME:  I would ask that Mr. Laugel now play 65 ter 2609.2,

17     clip 1.  It is from the second part of the documentary "The Unit."  It is

18     a clip that commences at 23 minutes, 5 seconds, of the original

19     documentary and ends at 25 minutes, 33 seconds.

20             Your Honours, so that the record is clear, the original

21     documentary contains the interview of General Milovanovic interwoven with

22     other material.  The Prosecutor considered -- the Prosecution considered

23     that editing out the short pieces of material between

24     General Milovanovic's comments would have made the clip incomprehensible.

25     The Prosecution only relies on the comments of General Milovanovic.  Of

Page 4388

 1     course, if the Chamber wants us to edit out these short passages, we will

 2     do that.

 3        Q.   So, General, I would ask you now to please watch and listen to

 4     65 ter 2609.2, clip number 1.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             "Manojlo Milovanovic:  I arrived there on 12 February 1995, on

 7     orders from General Mladic.  He had conveyed to me that this was the

 8     stance of both the Yugoslav Supreme Defence Council and our own Supreme

 9     Command, that I should take over command of Operation Spider.

10             "Narrator:  While waiting for the hand-over of duties,

11     Milovanovic inspected the front line.  The initial skirmishes between

12     Abdic's Territorial Defence and the 5th Corps soon turned into

13     exceptionally vicious fighting.  In fact, the bloodiest combat unfolded

14     between the Muslims themselves.

15             "Manojlo Milovanovic:  I watched those soldiers of Fikret's.

16     They fought like mad.  I watched a platoon in attack, it was dreadful.

17     Their number was halved by the men of the 5th Corps, yet they continued

18     crawling, pushing some concrete construction blocks in front of them.

19     They tried rolling those blocks, their fingers flying off.

20             "Atif Dudakovic:  According to some figures, as many as 1.700 of

21     Abdic's soldiers were killed in the fighting against the 5th Corps, while

22     1.300 of Abdic's soldiers were killed in fighting against the Serbian

23     Krajina army.  This shows that in terms of intensity the fighting between

24     the 5th Corps and Abdic's forces was more severe.

25             "Narrator:  Legija and Rajo Bozovic, whose code-name on this

Page 4389

 1     occasion was Kobac, would take their orders only from Frenki.

 2             "Manojlo Milovanovic:  Frenki then arrived accompanied by another

 3     man who also wore a red beret and blue uniform.  I believe his name was

 4     Bozovic and that he held a rank of colonel.  They didn't stay long

 5     because things were, as one would say, really hot.  We only greeted each

 6     other.  I asked Frenki, as I had heard about him but had never seen him

 7     before, 'What are you doing here?'  He replied, 'Jovica Stanisic has

 8     come, and I have come with him.'

 9             "Narrator:  Even so, Milovanovic never became the commander of

10     Operation Spider.

11             "Manojlo Milovanovic:  Not a single general or Yugoslav army

12     officer who would carry out the rotation, replace General Novakovic and

13     appoint me, came to the meeting.  Instead Jovica Stanisic came.  I

14     believe he was the chief of the Serbian state security.  I told him,

15     'Jovica, I will not carry out orders from you.  You are a policeman not a

16     soldier.'"

17             MR. GROOME:

18        Q.   Now, my first question is:  The portions of that clip which

19     purport to record what you have said, are they accurate and truthful?

20        A.   Yes, they are.

21        Q.   At the beginning of the clip you refer to the date

22     12 February 1995, is that the date that you arrived on orders from

23     General Mladic?

24        A.   No, that is not the date.  It was on the 22nd of February, 1995,

25     ten days later.

Page 4390

 1        Q.   Now, in the passage you say:  "He had conveyed to me that this

 2     was the stance of both the Yugoslav Supreme Defence Council" -- I'm

 3     sorry, I think I am maybe a bit ahead of myself.

 4             Can I ask you to describe in a little more detail your

 5     interaction with Jovica Stanisic.

 6        A.   Since you asked the Presiding Judge for permission to comment on

 7     the previous excerpt, I would also seek similar leave to comment so as

 8     not to misinform the Chamber much the way it happened at the beginning of

 9     the testimony concerning June.  Sometime in mid-February 1995,

10     General Mladic was in Belgrade.  He phoned me, telling me that I should

11     get ready, and that in a few days I was to travel to a place called

12     Samarice.  At first I thought it was Sumarica, where the monument to the

13     Serbs killed near Kragujevac was.  I asked him why was I to go to

14     Kragujevac.  And he said, "No, not there, you're going to Petrova Gora."

15     I guess the place where a command there was was called Samarice.  In any

16     case, he told me, "Most probably you will assume command of Operation

17     Spider.  You will remain the Chief of Staff, and upon completion of that

18     task you will return to Han Pijesak."

19             I was familiar with Operation Spider, I knew who was supposed to

20     carry it out and how, and I also knew that as part of the forces of the

21     Republic of Srpska Krajina, there were also Fikret Abdic's forces or the

22     so-called the People's Defence of Western Bosnia.  I will discuss that

23     later as well.

24             Five months prior to that, I had refused to co-operate with the

25     People's Defence of the Autonomous Region of Western Bosnia, and at that

Page 4391

 1     time I told Mladic, "Boss, I won't command any Muslims, even if they were

 2     Abdic's men."  He said, "Implement my order because this is an order of

 3     the supreme commander, Mr. Karadzic.  You are to go to Petrova Gora."

 4             I arrived there on the 22nd.  When the meeting was supposed to

 5     take place, I was told that the entire Supreme Command of the Republic of

 6     Srpska Krajina was to attend as well as the commander of our 2nd Krajina

 7     Corps, General Tomanic, and that there will be someone from Yugoslavia.

 8     When I arrived on the 22nd in the area of Petrova Gora, I was told that

 9     the meeting was postponed for the next day, the 23rd.  I located General

10     Mile Novakovic, who was in command of Operation Spider.  We placed our --

11     we placed insignia on our sleeves, indicating that we were members of the

12     force of the autonomous province of Western Bosnia, so as to be able to

13     move through check-points.  Mile wanted to take me to the front line to

14     see -- to show me how those people fought.  We -- on the way we went to

15     an observation point where he had a small office and we observed this

16     group in attack referred to in the footage, advancing down a slope.

17     These were Fikret Abdic's men.

18             As we were watching, two men in uniform approached us, one in

19     camouflage military uniform and the other in a police uniform.  The one

20     wearing the police uniform had the insignia indicating that he was a

21     colonel.  Since I had never seen Frenki in uniform, I asked him who he

22     was, and he said, "I am Frenki."  In reply I said, "Oh, so you're the

23     one."  The other one introduced himself - I still think it was

24     Bozovic - he spoke with a Montenegrin dialect, and I concluded that he

25     also came from Yugoslavia.  When I asked Frenki what he was doing there,

Page 4392

 1     he said, "Well, Jovica Stanisic arrived and I came with him."  I think

 2     the conversation took less than two minutes and we had to move out

 3     because the situation got really hot, as I put it in the footage.  There

 4     was some fierce fighting.

 5             The next day I arrived in the place where I was told the meeting

 6     was to be held, in a building at Petrova Gora.  I didn't know then and I

 7     still don't know what the building was used for.  A policeman took us to

 8     the first floor, into a room where I found Jovica Stanisic.  I asked him,

 9     "Jovica, why -- what are you doing here?"  And he said, "Well, I'm here

10     to attend the meeting."

11             We entered the room, the meeting room, and out of the officers

12     there the most senior person was the Chief of Staff of the Serbian

13     Krajina army, Major-General Dusan Loncar.  There were a number of corps

14     commanders whom I recognised, as well as some other officers.  In total

15     there were between 40 and 50 men in the meeting room.

16             Jovica told them -- well, yes, Frenki was there.  Jovica spoke to

17     them about the disaccord or rifts among the political leadership in -- of

18     the Republic of Serbian Krajina, saying that if they were to go on like

19     that, fighting for power and positions, that they were going to lose the

20     war.  Frenki discussed problems, mostly security and political problems

21     in the 18th and 39th Corps of the Serb Krajina army.  I think it is the

22     Okucani and Banija Corps.  He said that similar things were taking place

23     there and that cargo trucks were being stopped carrying assistance and

24     humanitarian aid for the Republic of Serbian Krajina, stating that the

25     army was stopping them and taking goods.

Page 4393

 1             At the end of the meeting Jovica Stanisic said that the duty of

 2     the commander or command of Operation Spider was to be taken over by

 3     General Milovanovic.  I asked Jovica, "On whose decision?"  And his

 4     answer was, "It was the decision of the staff [as interpreted] of the

 5     Army of Republika Srpska and the Yugoslav Supreme Defence Council."

 6             I told Jovica that I wasn't going to do that.  My explanation was

 7     as I've already stated earlier, repeating that I was not going to command

 8     any Muslim forces, irrespective of who they belonged to, because if we

 9     got lucky and defeated the 5th Corps of Atif Dudakovic, who was to make

10     any guarantees to me that I wasn't going to fight Abdic's army the next

11     day.

12             Second of all, the area of Bihac was not within our sphere of

13     interest of Republika Srpska.  At the beginning of the war we -- the

14     borders decided on were supposed to go via Drina, Sava, and

15     Neretva rivers.  I left the meeting, Jovica followed, trying to persuade

16     me, but it didn't do him any good.  In the hallway he opened the doors of

17     a room, stating, "There's a man who wants to see you."  I thought it

18     would be an officer of my generation from back at school, but when I got

19     in, I encountered Fikret Abdic.  He was seated there on a couch, drinking

20     milk.  He seemed to have a cold.  That was my first meeting with

21     Fikret Abdic -- actually, on the 8th of November, 1994, I met him for the

22     first time together with Jovica Stanisic, and on that occasion I did not

23     greet him.

24             On this occasion, however, I wanted to appear more civil so I did

25     greet him and we spoke for about three to four minutes, upon which I left

Page 4394

 1     the room.  Before that, I said good-byes to Jovica Stanisic and returned

 2     to the Main Staff.  No one ever asked me afterwards why I refused to

 3     assume command of Operation Spider.

 4        Q.   Now, General, if I can just take you back and ask you a specific

 5     question about what you have just told us.  The transcript at page 28,

 6     line 21, records you as saying the follows:

 7             "I asked Jovica, 'On whose decision?'  And his answer was, 'It

 8     was the decision of the staff of the Army of Republika Srpska and the

 9     Yugoslav Supreme Defence Council.'"

10             Did the record correctly record what you remember Jovica Stanisic

11     saying to you?

12        A.   I'm positive that he did not say the staff of the Army of

13     Republika Srpska.  He could only have said of the Supreme Command of

14     Republika Srpska.  As I've said at the beginning of my testimony on this

15     issue, General Mladic phoned me from Belgrade to get ready to travel,

16     hence the Main Staff did not sit and discuss this.  General Mladic also

17     left the decision to me.  He didn't decide that I should assume that

18     duty.  Had he done so, I would have obeyed his order --

19        Q.   General, just before we get too far away from it, since there is

20     some confusion, it appears, can I ask you to say again, as accurately as

21     you're able, what precisely did Jovica Stanisic say to you at this

22     moment?

23        A.   I asked Jovica on whose orders he was to convey it to me.  He

24     said, "Based on the decision of the Supreme Defence Council of the FRY

25     and the Supreme Command of the armed forces of Republika Srpska."  On the

Page 4395

 1     table in front of him there was a piece of paper.  He indicated the name

 2     of Slobodan Milosevic with a pencil in his hand.  It was towards the

 3     bottom of the page.  I don't know what the paper actually contained and

 4     whether it was an order or not, but I only know that since he indicated

 5     the name to me, I assumed he didn't want anyone else to hear his name

 6     mentioned.  And I told him, "Only Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic could

 7     issue orders to me, not this person."

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, we usually have sessions of 75 minutes.

 9     It's quarter past 10.00.  Could you find a suitable moment, whether that

10     would be now or within the next five minutes, to have a break.

11             MR. GROOME:  This would be suitable, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  This would be a suitable moment.

13             Then we'll have a break and resume at quarter to 11.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 10.13 a.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, you may proceed.

17             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   General, there's a great volume of other material I want to ask

19     you questions about today.  I'm concerned about the time, so I'm going to

20     play the remaining clips from the documentary.  This next clip, I won't

21     ask for any extensive comment on.  I would just ask you whether it's

22     accurate and truthful.  If we have time at the end of your testimony or

23     at the end of this examination, I will come back to it.

24             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask Mr. Laugel play the next clip,

25     65 ter 2609.2, clip number 2 from this video.  It is approximately one

Page 4396

 1     minute in duration and is found in the original complete documentary

 2     beginning at 36 minutes, 45 seconds.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             "Manojlo Milovanovic:  Sometime in the evening, I received a call

 5     from a Drina Corps colonel.  His name was Svetozar Andric.  Furious and

 6     revolted, he said:  'General, can anybody be allowed to beat Serbian

 7     officers?'  Not knowing what it was about, I replied:  'They can.  The

 8     Muslims beat us every time they get a chance to.'  But he said:  'I was

 9     just beaten up by Arkan.'  I asked him:  "Where?'  He said:  'In

10     Prijedor.'  'What was Arkan doing there?'  I asked.  Andric replied:  'I

11     don't know.'

12             "Colonel, Former VRS Brigade Commander:  He simply arrested one

13     of the officers of my brigade, in the area between Sanski Most and

14     Prijedor.  Arkan didn't arrest him; he intercepted him like a criminal on

15     the road, took his vehicle, and shaved the man's head.  Arkan abused him

16     for a completely incomprehensible reason:  The man didn't hold a pass

17     issued by Arkan.

18             "Manojlo Milanovic:  'They intercepted me and beat me,' said the

19     man as he returned from the front, I don't know where.  He said:  'They

20     beat me.  He, himself, beat me.'"

21             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, for the sake of a clear record, the

22     passage -- there was another person speaking in the middle of that who

23     was not identified.  The text that he began his intervention was:  "He

24     simply arrested," and it ended with "pass issued by Arkan."  The

25     remainder of that was Colonel -- or General Milovanovic.

Page 4397

 1        Q.   General, is that passage -- is your portion or the portion that

 2     you speak in that passage truthful and accurate?

 3        A.   Yes, it is.

 4        Q.   I would now --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, is there any way that we could get a

 6     time-frame for the events the witness was talking about in this

 7     video-clip?

 8             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Can you orient us as to time and location with respect to what

10     you are referring to in this videotape?

11        A.   It was approximately in early September 1995.

12             MR. GROOME:  Now, I'd ask Mr. Laugel to play 65 ter number

13     2609.2, clip 3.  This clip is found at 38 minutes, 35 seconds, to

14     40 minutes, 2 seconds of the original and complete documentary.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             "Manojlo Milovanovic:  I asked:  'On whose order did you come

17     here?  How did you get here in the first place?'  He replied:  'I came

18     here on President Karadzic's order.'  Karadzic was present, sitting

19     opposite me, but Karadzic kept quiet and so did Krajisnik.  Karadzic was

20     fiddling his fingers like a child who had done something wrong.  'Let me

21     see that order!'  Arkan replied:  'I left it at the hotel.'

22     'Mr. President, does Arkan have your order to come here?'  Karadzic

23     failed to say either 'yes' or 'no,' and he remained silent.

24             "At that point Arkan started talking hot air, saying how hard it

25     was for him to leave his 22-year-old wife behind him who was pining after

Page 4398

 1     him.  He had just married Ceca.  I said:  'What do I care about your

 2     22-year-old wife?'  Mladic and I had already agreed on how to get rid of

 3     Arkan.  I said:  'I will be going to Manjaca this evening to drive out

 4     your remaining soldiers, while Mladic will do the same in Kotorski, as he

 5     has set off for Han Pijesak.  In 24 hours' time, there will be no trace

 6     of you here!'"

 7        Q.   Now, General, again, is this truthful and accurate, the

 8     information that you provided in this documentary?

 9        A.   Yes, it is.

10        Q.   Now, General, you refer to specific plans to expel Arkan at this

11     period.  And first maybe if I could ask you, could you orient us again as

12     to -- as to time-period that you're speaking about?

13        A.   I think it was in late September 1995.

14        Q.   And it appears from what your -- your comments that there were

15     specific plans to expel Arkan at that time.  And my question to you is:

16     Were you able or did you have an estimate of how many of Arkan's fighters

17     were in the area controlled by the Army of the Republika Srpska?

18        A.   I did not have precise information.  I only know -- I only knew

19     that Arkan was there with a group of fighters.  I don't think it was the

20     whole brigade, though, but I cannot tell you anything precisely.

21        Q.   And then the other question that I have with respect to your --

22     this particular clip, there's a reference to an order.  Did you ever see

23     that written order?  Was it ever brought for you to see?

24        A.   I was never shown it.

25             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, at this time I have concluded my

Page 4399

 1     questions arising out of General Milovanovic's interview in the second

 2     part of the documentary "The Unit."  At this time I would tender 2609.2

 3     into evidence.  It is comprised of the three clips bearing the time codes

 4     previously mentioned.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

 6             Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P377, Your Honour.

 8             MR. GROOME:

 9        Q.   Now, General, yesterday --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  P377 is admitted into evidence.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. GROOME:

13        Q.   General, after you arrived at the Tribunal, were you asked to

14     review a number of official documents of the Army of Republika Srpska and

15     give your opinion as to whether the documents were authentic?

16        A.   Yes, I was.

17        Q.   I would like to now ask you a series of questions related to

18     these documents.

19             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, General Milovanovic has been quite

20     resolute in expressing his strong wish that all of his testimony be heard

21     in public session, but I want to ask him about documents which are

22     presently subject to some restriction and must be discussed in private

23     session.  Could I ask that we move into private session briefly to

24     discuss the matter.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

Page 4400

 1           [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of Trial Chamber] 

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the -- this set of documents relates to

 5     the newly acquired diaries and other documents that have been seized and

 6     provided by the Government of Serbia.  I do believe we can deal with this

 7     matter entirely in public if we do two things.  One, that the chart that

 8     General Milovanovic filled out is not displayed on the monitor; and two,

 9     that General Milovanovic not say who he recognises the author of these

10     books, but to simply states that he has recorded that fact on the sheet

11     that we are looking at on our screens.

12             In addition to allowing as much of these proceedings to proceed

13     in public as possible, there is the added benefit to taking this

14     evidence -- there is an added benefit to taking this evidence in public

15     session.  It is likely that these books will be relevant in several

16     trials before the Tribunal.  This limited portion of

17     General Milovanovic's evidence, if given publicly, may be used by

18     Prosecution and Defence teams in other cases to establish the

19     authenticity of these books without having to seek variations of

20     protective measures from this Chamber.  It will also serve --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the reason why Mr. Weber had not switched off

22     his telephone are known by the Chamber, and the Chamber has accepted it.

23     Mr. Weber.

24             MR. GROOME:  It will also serve as -- it will also make it

25     possible for other Defence teams to be on notice about

Page 4401

 1     General Milovanovic's testimony once any possible motion by the

 2     Government of Serbia is filed and decided by the Trial Chamber.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             First of all, Mr. Milovanovic, the Chamber appreciates that you

 5     insist on giving your testimony in public.  At the same time, this

 6     Tribunal sometimes engages in obligations towards the parties that

 7     provide certain documents, and here this is not public knowledge.

 8     Therefore, you should not speak with anyone about it.  It is the

 9     Republic of Serbia who has requested that these documents, at least at

10     this moment, will not be dealt with in public session or at least not to

11     reveal the documents in public session.

12             May I take it that if this is the reason why we would hear either

13     your testimony in closed session or hear your testimony in such a way

14     that the documents will not be identified, if you would testify in public

15     session that you have no problems in meeting in this way the request by

16     the Government of the Republic of Serbia.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I'm concerned,

18     Your Honour, I'm here because I was summoned to appear before you.  And

19     it is certainly in my interest as well to meet the request of the

20     Government of the Republic of Serbia.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             Could I hear from the Defence whether the proposed course to be

23     taken meets any objection.  And I am inclined, but let me just check with

24     my colleagues ...

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 4402

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber has some preference for hearing your

 2     testimony also in this respect in open session, but then in such a way

 3     that we'll not specifically refer to what the documents exactly are apart

 4     from that we can see it on our screens.  And I take it then that the

 5     charts would be sought to be admitted into evidence and that they'll be

 6     confidential exhibits.

 7             Further, if it comes to books, I would even speak in a more

 8     neutral way about documents because people might ask themselves why we

 9     are suddenly talking about books and what those books are.  And

10     therefore, I would just refer to exhibits or give the 65 ter numbers

11     rather than to refer to what we know are books but which might give a

12     clue to what the material really is.

13             MR. GROOME:  And, Your Honour, before we go back into public

14     session, if I can just take this advantage of the opportunity to avoid

15     confusion later on in the examination, I will ask the General to deal

16     with two diaries of General Mladic that there are no request for

17     protective measures and they have been used publicly in other trials, so

18     not to be alarmed when I, all of a sudden, start talking about such

19     diaries.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I must admit that I do not follow in every

21     detail what happens in every trials, not because I'm not interested but

22     because I just don't find the time.

23             Then, Mr. Milovanovic, please carefully listen to the way in

24     which Mr. Groome will phrase his question and avoid in answering that the

25     documents which are provided to the Tribunal as confidential documents at

Page 4403

 1     this moment, that your answers will not be such that the public could

 2     identify what these documents are.  If you think that you couldn't answer

 3     the question in such a way, then please ask us to go into private session

 4     for a moment so that you can speak freely if there's any need to include

 5     in your answer any clue to the -- what the documents exactly are.

 6             What you see on your screen then will not be shown to the public.

 7     Is that clear to you?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we move back into open session.

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13             MR. GROOME:

14        Q.   General, I did not ask you any questions while we were in private

15     session, and with the Court's permission, we will proceed cautiously in

16     public session.  So I would ask you to give me short, precise answers to

17     the questions I'm about to ask you.

18             The first question is:  Were you asked to look at a series of

19     18 documents after you arrived here in Holland?  Yes or no, if you can.

20        A.   Yes, I was.

21        Q.   Were you told who the author of these documents was prior to

22     being allowed to see them?  Yes or no, if you can.

23        A.   I was not told, but I concluded that myself.

24        Q.   Were you provided any information regarding where the documents

25     came from?  Yes or no, if you can.

Page 4404

 1        A.   Yes, I was.

 2        Q.   Without mentioning any names, did you recognise the handwriting

 3     of the person who wrote in these documents, the person or persons who

 4     wrote in these documents?  Yes or no, if you can.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I would ask at this time that document

 7     number 5287 be brought to the screens before us and that it not be

 8     displayed to the public.  It is a chart containing the notations made by

 9     this witness.

10        Q.   General, while we're waiting for the English, if I can ask you,

11     do you recognise the document that you see on the left-hand side of the

12     screen?  Yes or no, if you can.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Is this where you recorded the identity of the person whose

15     handwriting you recognised -- the person or persons whose handwriting you

16     recognised on the document that is now before us?  I'm sorry, let me

17     rephrase that.

18             The document that we're looking at, is this where you recorded

19     the identity of the person or persons whose handwriting you recognise

20     when you reviewed the 18 documents?

21        A.   Yes, it is.

22        Q.   This is a two-page document.  Did you -- can I ask you, did you

23     see your signature on that document?

24        A.   I do.

25             MR. GROOME:  Could we please turn to the second page.

Page 4405

 1        Q.   While we're waiting for the second page, could I ask you, do you

 2     affirm the truthfulness and accuracy of the notes you made on the chart

 3     that we now have before us?

 4        A.   I do.

 5        Q.   I believe the second page now is coming up before you, and I ask

 6     you, do you see your signature on the second page?

 7        A.   No.

 8             MR. GROOME:  That's the wrong document.

 9             Your Honour, there may be a problem.  If we could --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  It seems that we have the English version before us

11     for the second page, whereas for the other -- for the first page -- we

12     have the English version of the second page before us.  For the first

13     page, the signature was on the original, not on the English translation.

14             MR. GROOME:  Mr. Laugel -- we're looking at it on our monitor.

15     I'm not technically --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just check what we have in the original.

17     Yes, the original version has ...

18             MR. GROOME:  And if we could just scroll down to the bottom.

19        Q.   General, do you see your signature on this document?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time I would ask that the

22     document on the screen be marked for identification, and given the

23     sensitivity, although the public usually doesn't have access to exhibits

24     marked for identification, maybe that we note that it be placed under

25     seal.

Page 4406

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but before we do so let me just try to

 2     understand what I'm looking at.

 3             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, perhaps I might be able to enlighten

 4     the Chamber as to the handwritten notes on the bottom if that's the

 5     question --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I'm first of all interested in the -- I see

 7     that in the fourth column names appear.  Now, what the fourth column

 8     stands for, you wouldn't expect the names we see there; you would rather

 9     expect that to be in the fifth column, as we find it on the first page.

10     But if that's explained in the handwriting, that is fine.

11             MR. GROOME:  It is not, Your Honour.  And perhaps the best way to

12     deal with this if we could have an image of that on the screen, I will

13     ask the witness to make -- if he needs to make any corrections and we can

14     save a copy, an edited copy that he does right here in court.  Would that

15     be acceptable?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps I briefly ask the witness.

17             Mr. Milovanovic, I see that on the first page of this document

18     you have initialled the third column.  Consistently you have made some

19     changes to the ERN numbers.  Then the third column -- the fourth column

20     is on the first page empty.  And then in the fifth column names appear.

21     Now, on the second page, again your initials appear in the third column,

22     then names which we find on the first page in the fifth column here now

23     appear in the fourth column, which seems to be a bit illogical if you

24     look at the heading of that fourth column.

25             Was it your intention to write down the names we now find in the

Page 4407

 1     fourth column, to write them down in the fifth column, as you did on the

 2     first page?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, so this is just a

 4     technical error.  The first page was shown to me how this was done.  I

 5     guess the second page wasn't.  I think the people who were working with

 6     me thought that I would be bright enough to get it, but I actually wrote

 7     it in the wrong column.  So everything that's in the fourth column should

 8     be entered in the fifth column and the fourth column should be blank.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that is now clear.

10             Then we perhaps now move on to the handwriting at the bottom.

11             Mr. Groome, you may proceed.

12             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if the Court will accept my

13     representation until the English translation is done, but there were some

14     documents contained in -- among the documents that General Milovanovic

15     did not recognise the handwriting and he simply noted the ERN number of

16     those documents.  And the last one, Your Honour, is just an explanation

17     that he did not have sufficient time to study the documents in order to

18     adequately fill out column 6 and that's why column 6 has been left blank.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  With these clarifications, is there any

20     objection to admission into evidence?

21             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm sorry.

23             MR. GROOME:  I -- because I have not made a motion to actually

24     introduce --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 4408

 1             MR. GROOME:  -- I thought it more appropriate to leave it as

 2     marked for identification.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Marked for identification.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, could I just raise one point.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  I was wondering if --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We are in open session, as you are aware of, yes.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

 9             When the witness was asked whether he was provided with any

10     information regarding where the documents came from, he answered "yes."

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you would like to know what he was --

12             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, please.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then perhaps we should move for that purpose

14     into private session in order to avoid any risk.

15             We move into private session.

16           [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of Trial Chamber] 

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

19             Witness, when you said that you were provided with information as

20     to where these documents came from, could you tell us what the

21     information was you received?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I speak with the open text?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You mean that you have the text on your screen or

24     that we are -- at this moment the public will not hear your testimony.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So I can say what the Prosecutor

Page 4409

 1     told me while preparing.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you can.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was told that the documents were

 4     received from the Government of the Republic of Serbia and that this is

 5     something that I should keep confidential.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Was anything else told you -- told to you

 7     as -- were any further details given?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was just explained to me how I

 9     should fill in this form.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  But, for example, you were not told where they had

11     been found, in archives, or whether that was in Banja Luka or Belgrade or

12     Zagreb or -- were you given any further details as to the origin of these

13     documents?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, does this --

16             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you very much.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- sufficiently deal with the matter?

18             Then we move into open session again.

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

22             Usually I do not ask whether there's any objection for documents

23     to be marked for identification because they are not then admitted into

24     evidence.  At the same time, if a document is marked for identification,

25     then certainly the answers given to questions may have some evidentiary

Page 4410

 1     value.  No objections.

 2             Madam Registrar, the documents.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P378, marked for

 4     identification, under seal, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  It will keep that status, under seal.

 6             Please proceed, Mr. Groome.

 7             MR. GROOME:  I would ask that document number 5288 be displayed

 8     on the screen.  It is a two-page document containing both typed and

 9     handwritten text.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Not to be shown to the public?

11             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour, this one can be shown to the

12     public.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

14             MR. GROOME:  I just pause because I'm not sure that we have the

15     English translation yet.  It was just done last night, but I suppose

16     we'll see in the next minute or two.

17        Q.   General, while we're waiting for that to come up, were you also

18     asked to review a binder of 11 documents originating from the

19     Army of Republika Srpska?

20        A.   I was shown a number of binders yesterday, so I'm not sure

21     exactly which one you're thinking of.  There were some with 11, less,

22     more, and so on and so forth.

23        Q.   The one I'm asking you about now is the binder with 11 documents,

24     and your notes regarding that are now on the screen before you.  So maybe

25     if you take a look at that, and I ask you, does that refresh your

Page 4411

 1     recollection as to which specific binder you were asked to look at.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Did you review these documents and form an opinion with respect

 4     to whether the documents are copies of authentic documents originating

 5     from the Army of Republika Srpska?

 6        A.   All the documents that were reviewed were copies.

 7        Q.   And based upon your review of these copies, were you able to form

 8     an opinion or an assessment as to whether they were copies of authentic

 9     documents of the VRS?

10        A.   That should be entered in the review.  If a document was

11     authentic, I would put yes; and if not, I would enter a no.

12        Q.   And what we're looking at before you, is this the document upon

13     which you recorded your assessment of these 11 documents?

14             MR. GROOME:  Perhaps if we could zoom out a little bit, it might

15     be easier for the witness to see.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's all right.  Every document has

17     my initials with a brief comment on the document.

18             MR. GROOME:  And if we could go to the second page.

19        Q.   And while we're waiting for the second page, did you record these

20     comments in the right-hand column of this document?

21        A.   Yes, this is in column 7.

22        Q.   And is the document that we're looking at a fair and accurate

23     representation of the comments that you recorded yesterday when you

24     reviewed these 11 documents?

25        A.   Yes, as I see my handwriting there.

Page 4412

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, I notice that in the English version

 2     initials which are asked for in columns 5 and 6 are not present, whereas

 3     they seem to be present in the original.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  Perhaps I could address that and

 5     then I would ask that it be marked for identification at this point in

 6     time and I'll have the translation unit --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and then provide for at least the full English

 8     version.

 9             Yes, please.

10             MR. GROOME:  So, Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution does

11     ask that this be marked for identification.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             I take it that the parties have seen that the English version is

14     not complete because some of the handwriting is missing.  Furthermore,

15     where it says "Signature," the -- a reference to a signature is missing

16     at the bottom of the document, whereas in the original we see that there

17     is a signature in blue handwriting.

18             Any objections?

19             Madam Registrar, could you please assign a number for this

20     document to be marked for identification.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P379, marked for

22     identification, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  It will keep that

24     status for the time being.

25             Please proceed.

Page 4413

 1             MR. GROOME:

 2        Q.   General, do I correctly summarise your assessment of the

 3     authenticity of these documents when I say the following, that you found

 4     that all of them were authentic with the exception of document number 4

 5     on the list, and for that document you did not believe that you were able

 6     to make an assessment of the authenticity of that document.  Have I

 7     correctly stated your conclusions with respect to these 11 documents?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time I'm going to tender the

10     exhibits referenced here, with the exception of number 4, which is

11     65 ter 94.  And, Your Honour, taking the point that the Chamber has made

12     on several occasions, the Chamber is able to read documents that are

13     clear on their face for themselves.  Given that each of these ten

14     documents speaks for itself and given the unique situation in which

15     General Milovanovic has refused to be a witness in the case and that he

16     only arrived in The Hague yesterday pursuant to a subpoena, the

17     Prosecution has been unable to determine whether he has any particular

18     knowledge over and above what the documents say on their face.  The

19     Prosecution believes it would not necessarily be productive or efficient

20     for me to now ask the General to read each of these documents in your

21     presence and comment.  So it is not my intention to do so.  I recognise

22     that the right and the interest -- I recognise that the Defence and the

23     Chamber may have an interest in asking questions about these documents,

24     but the Prosecution at this time is content to rest on the simple text of

25     the document and has no additional questions for General Milovanovic.

Page 4414

 1             And with that, Your Honour, the Prosecution would tender the ten

 2     documents that are identified in this chart and the 65 ter number is

 3     included on the chart.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we move to that, you summarised what the

 5     position of the witness was in relation to the authenticity.  While I

 6     tried to follow you in respect of document number 7 -- well, the only way

 7     of making that an authentic document is -- requires some intellectual

 8     gymnastics because I see in the original in the column "Not authentic," a

 9     "no."  Now, if you take that literally, you could say if the question of

10     being not authentic is answered by no, you could conclude that it is

11     authentic.  But that is a kind of gymnastics which I would not -- it is

12     more likely I would say that the witness by writing "ne" denies the

13     authenticity of document number 7.

14             Could you comment on that, Mr. Groome, on what basis you said

15     that it was only in relation to document 4 that the witness denied

16     authenticity and that for all the others he confirmed the authenticity.

17             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, with -- it's my mistake.  If I could

18     clarify what it is he has to say with respect to 7, perhaps --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we can read that, but if you would change your

20     summary in that the witness has denied in respect of documents 4 and 7 --

21     let me just look at it.

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, now that I'm able to see the English

23     translation, I withdraw my tendering of 65 ter 4696.  I don't believe

24     that there is proper basis at this time for admission of that document.

25     So I would withdraw my application with respect to items 4 and 7 on this

Page 4415

 1     list, that's 65 ter 94 and 65 ter 4696.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Are there any objections?

 3             MR. JORDASH:  There are objections to the admission of the

 4     documents.  We obviously -- well, maybe not obviously, but we accept that

 5     the Prosecution have crossed the authenticity threshold, but what the

 6     Prosecution have to do, we submit, is then cross the relevance threshold.

 7     And because this witness has attended subject to a subpoena does not

 8     obviate the need for the Prosecution to explain either through a bar

 9     table motion or through a witness the precise relevance and probative

10     value of these documents.

11             If I can just take one particular example to demonstrate the

12     point, Exhibit 105 -- I think it's 105.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  That's number 9 on the list, Mr. Jordash.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.  Thank you, Your Honour.  Is a 165-page

15     document, detailing, as the title suggests, the combat-readiness and the

16     activities of the Republika Srpska in 1992.  It cannot be, we submit,

17     that every page of that document is relevant.  And it cannot be that, in

18     our submission, that that document can be simply tendered without some

19     explanation as to why the combat-readiness of the VRS is relevant to the

20     charges in this indictment.

21             There are another -- a number of other documents which we have

22     the same precise issue with, which we cannot actually work out what the

23     probative value of the document is.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. JORDASH:  Those are my submissions.

Page 4416

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, we have two issues here, Mr. Groome, I think

 2     identified by Mr. Jordash:  Relevance and probative value.  That is a

 3     question which is not answered just by authenticity.  I could provide you

 4     with a lot of authentic documents which have no relevance and no

 5     probative value.

 6             Now, usually if a witness does not give any information as to the

 7     content of documents, which he does not here, at least I would have to go

 8     through the seventh column in detail before I would know whether we find

 9     anything in there.  But as Mr. Jordash said, sometimes there are very

10     lengthy documents.  We have not heard any evidence on the content of it.

11     It sounds as if we are dealing with bar table documents, where any debate

12     on authenticity is avoided by providing evidence as to the authenticity

13     of these documents, which would lead me to suggest that we deal with

14     these documents as with -- as we usually do with bar table documents, is

15     that we have a chart and that you briefly describe the relevance for what

16     portions of the -- what portions of the indictment they relate to and any

17     other matter, which is what to focus on.  For example, if we have a very

18     lengthy document, the Chamber is invited to look at page so and so and

19     so, so that we know what you are seeking to establish through these

20     documents because the mere fact that they're authentic is fine but

21     doesn't give much guidance for the Chamber as to how to -- what to

22     specifically look at.  That we then follow the usual procedure for bar

23     table documents, that the Defence is able to comment on that, and that

24     the Chamber would then receive the chart knowing what the relevance is,

25     where to look in the document, what the comment of the Defence is, so

Page 4417

 1     that we with all that information then can decide on admission.

 2             Is this -- I'm first looking to you whether that's -- whether you

 3     consider this suggestion to be one which is practical.

 4             MR. GROOME:  The Prosecution does, Your Honour.  So at this

 5     point --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'll ask the Defence teams whether they would

 7     agree.  So apart from the authenticity, to deal with these documents as

 8     if it were a bar table submission, which would meet, I think, the

 9     concerns you have expressed, Mr. Jordash.

10             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.  During our cross-examination we

11     may ask the witness about some of the documents, which would then obviate

12     the need for the bar table motion.  But yes, we agree in principle.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, of course, if you start asking questions about

14     the substance of the documents, then of course they lose more or less

15     their character of bar table documents and might well then -- that we

16     have to decide on admission of those specific documents already at that

17     stage.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we absolutely agree

21     with your proposal.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             Then since the witness has written down his observations as far

24     as authenticity is concerned, I suggest that for the time being that the

25     documents will be bar tabled, but we also could wait -- could be MFI'd,

Page 4418

 1     but, of course, we could also wait because in the previously admitted

 2     exhibit we have all the relevant information.  Although for the other

 3     chart, we have chosen for the option that the -- let me see.  No, you

 4     didn't seek their -- the underlying documents all to be MFI'd?

 5             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.  I believe I'd have to -- the

 6     Prosecution would have to make an application to amend our 65 ter exhibit

 7     list, so we would do that first.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I would have one concern, that if they're not

 9     MFI'd, they do not appear -- it would not appear on our MFI list, and

10     therefore they might get lost somewhere in the further proceedings.

11             So therefore, I would like to -- Madam Registrar, to prepare a

12     list giving the 65 ter numbers, to copy the description of the document,

13     and then on that same list, with the exceptions of the numbers 4 and 7

14     appearing on this list, to prepare a list in which provisionally numbers

15     will be assigned.  And then once we have received that list, we'll MFI

16     those documents under those numbers suggested by Madam Registrar.  And

17     then at a later stage, we'll receive or not receive a bar table motion in

18     the format as the Chamber usually requests.

19             Madam Registrar, if you would prepare that, then we'll deal with

20     that at a later stage.

21             Perhaps we could already reserve nine numbers on the list, which

22     will then appear on the further prepared list at a later stage, but that

23     we would leave those numbers for the time being open as being the

24     expected MFI numbers for those nine documents.

25             Please proceed, Mr. Groome.

Page 4419

 1             MR. GROOME:  I would ask that the Court Officer call up

 2     65 ter 5067 on the screen.  It is a document dated 21st of February,

 3     1994, and marked "Very urgent."  The name of the author is

 4     General Milovanovic.

 5        Q.   General, when the document appears on the screen I'm going to ask

 6     you whether you recognise it, but I want to preface my remarks by saying

 7     it is not -- my focus is not the actual substance of the document, but

 8     more the addressees of the document.  So if I could ask you to pay

 9     attention to the addressees --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, is this a document which can be shown to

11     the public or not?

12             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour, it can.  Sorry.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  It can.

14             MR. GROOME:

15        Q.   And, General Milovanovic, once -- if you indicate us -- to us

16     when you've had a chance to look at this first page, I'll ask the

17     Court Officer to move to the second page so that you can see the entire

18     document.

19        A.   I can barely read it.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we enlarge the text so that ...

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Much better now.

22             MR. GROOME:

23        Q.   If you let us know when you need it to be scrolled down so that

24     you can review all of the document.

25        A.   You have already gone to page 2, but I haven't finished page 1.

Page 4420

 1             Very well.  We can move on.

 2        Q.   General, have you finished reading or reviewing the document?

 3        A.   I have.

 4        Q.   Can I just deal with authenticity first.  Do you have an

 5     assessment as to whether or not this document is an authentic document?

 6        A.   Yes, it was written in my style.

 7        Q.   Now, as I said, my primary focus with this document are the

 8     addressees.  Now, this letter is sent to four addressees:  The president

 9     of the Republic of Serbia, at that time Slobodan Milosevic; the president

10     of Republika Srpska, at that time Radovan Karadzic; the Chief of Staff of

11     the Yugoslav Army, at that time General Perisic; and finally the state

12     security department of the MUP of Serbia, at that time headed by

13     Jovica Stanisic.

14             Can I ask why was this document sent to President Milosevic?

15        A.   To President Milosevic?

16        Q.   Yes.

17        A.   Do you have in mind President Milosevic or General Milosevic?

18     There's two.

19        Q.   Well, perhaps you could tell us the -- the first addressee, is it

20     not the president of Serbia?

21        A.   Correct, to the president of the Republic of Serbia,

22     Slobodan Milosevic.  I was inquiring about the identity because there was

23     a general by the name of Slobodan Milosevic, however, in the Army of

24     Republika Srpska.  This is an authentic document.  I drafted it based on

25     the documents referred therein.

Page 4421

 1             And what would be your question about it?

 2        Q.   So my question is:  Why was the document sent to

 3     President Milosevic?

 4        A.   This is why.  Firstly, the area of Bihac, the so-called Cazina

 5     Krajina was unilaterally by the Security Council of the UN in May of

 6     1993, almost a year before this, was declared a safe area.  In that area,

 7     according to that Security Council Resolution, there should have been no

 8     arms, no armed force.  The 5th Corps had to be disarmed; however, instead

 9     of disarming the 5th Corps, UNPROFOR informed us -- they did tell us that

10     the 5th Corps was disarmed and that its three brigades were disbanded.

11             That's what it -- their report stated.  However, in October 1993,

12     a Territorial Defence was formed.  It was formed somewhat before that but

13     made official in October 1993.  That was the Territorial Defence of the

14     autonomous area of Western Bosnia.  This was a new eighth armed force in

15     the territory of the former SFRY.  In this report mention is made of the

16     arming of the 5th Corps, which is done with the assistance of UNPROFOR,

17     which was there to disarm them in the first place, as well as the arming

18     of the armed force of Fikret Abdic which developed through the channels

19     of the Army of the Republic of Srpska Krajina.  All of these conducted

20     themselves in contravention to the Security Council Resolution.

21             General Mladic was probably not at the command post at that point

22     in time, and I, as his deputy, found it necessary to inform of this the

23     president of Serbia because in October, he was a signatory to a peace

24     agreement with Fikret Abdic, as well as to the president of Republika

25     Srpska, with whom I had arguments about that peace declaration, I think

Page 4422

 1     that's what it was called, which he also signed with Fikret Abdic.  And I

 2     also sent it to the Chief of the General Staff of our neighbouring armed

 3     force as well as to the MUP of Serbia, because the police were those who

 4     were to -- supposed to prevent any illegal weapons transport.

 5             Simply said, the embargo on weapons was violated, which was also

 6     one of the provisions of that Security Council Resolution.

 7        Q.   General Milovanovic, were there types of documents generated by

 8     the Army of Republika Srpska that were routinely sent to the state

 9     security department of the MUP of Serbia?

10        A.   Well, the number you can see in the heading, strictly

11     confidential 18/19.  In any case, the figure of 18 indicates that this

12     was done by the security organ at the staff.  Mladic's number was 01,

13     mine 02, Gvero 04, and the operational department had 03.  Number 18 is

14     someone from the security, and I signed it probably as the most senior

15     officer at the command post.  It is possible that I drafted it because

16     this would be my writing style.  I don't see anything questionable about

17     this.  Any security service and security intelligence organs of one

18     country inform all security organs of their neighbouring countries if

19     there are on -- on friendly terms.  This is the usual intelligence type

20     co-operation.

21             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution tenders

22     65 ter 5067.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

24             Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P389, Your Honour.

Page 4423

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  P389 is admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask the Court Officer to please display

 3     65 ter 4505 on the screens before us.

 4        Q.   General, while we're waiting for this, 65 ter 4505 is a

 5     photograph depicting four men standing next to each other.  After it

 6     appears on the screen before you, I'm going to ask you to identify each

 7     person in the photograph, and would you please do this starting with the

 8     person on the left-hand side of the photograph in a suit and work your

 9     way to the person standing on the right-hand side of the photograph in

10     uniform.

11        A.   The first, in front of the flags, is Momcilo Krajisnik; next to

12     him, Jovica Stanisic.  The person with the bundle of hair is

13     Radovan Karadzic.  In uniform -- well, I can't make this person out so

14     well today, but I think yesterday it was clear to me that this was

15     Frenki, the person with the glasses.

16             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that we zoom out so that we can see the

17     entire picture.

18        Q.   And can I ask you, General, do you recognise the location, or by

19     some of the items that we see in the photograph, do you have some idea

20     about the possible location?

21        A.   I don't recognise the setting, but the photograph must have been

22     taken somewhere in Serbia.  I conclude that based on the three flags in

23     the background.  The first two ones to the right, immediately behind

24     Krajisnik, were the republican or state flags.  The Federal Republic of

25     Yugoslavia at the time in its more important offices had the flags of the

Page 4424

 1     FRY, the flag of Serbia, and the third is the flag of an institution or a

 2     ministry, wherever they were.  In Republika Srpska at the time, in such

 3     locations, one would not come across three but two flags instead:  The

 4     flag of Republika Srpska and the flag of an institution or a ministry.

 5             And the coat of arms between the heads of Radovan Karadzic and

 6     Frenki does not resemble the coat of arms of Republika Srpska.  We also

 7     have a two-headed eagle, but it is white.  Of course, I also take into

 8     account that this was taken during the war, and I base that conclusion

 9     because of Krajisnik's and Karadzic's hair look.  That was his hairstyle

10     during the war.

11             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time I would tender 65 ter 4505

12     into evidence.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  In the absence of any objections, Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P390, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  P390 is admitted into evidence.

16             Mr. Groome, I'm looking at the clock.  We have sessions of

17     75 minutes usually, which would be -- let me just see ...

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, we have now done for 75 minutes.  In

20     totality we are a little bit under two and a half hours.  If we would

21     have a break now, how much time would you still need after the break?

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, it's actually impossible for me to

23     estimate because -- I'll explain what I have left, Your Honour.  I want

24     to show the witness one more photograph and then several entries from a

25     diary of General Mladic that I believe are highly probative.  But not

Page 4425

 1     having had the opportunity to ask the witness what he knows about these

 2     diary entries, it's impossible for me to say.  I have, I believe, seven

 3     entries.  Some of them, I think, speak for themselves, and I will not ask

 4     questions other than to ask his opinion about the handwriting.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you make a calculated guess?

 6             MR. GROOME:  I would think one hour, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and we would not finish your

 8     examination-in-chief anyhow because there are some charts still

 9     outstanding, isn't it, that's ...

10             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour, I was going to ask for 15 minutes

11     on Wednesday if -- after I fully explain my proposal.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             We'll have a break and we'll resume at 12.30.  I'm also keeping

14     in mind, of course, the total of time Mr. Stanisic is usually attending

15     court.  We'll resume at 12.30.

16                           --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 12.37 p.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, please proceed.

19             MR. GROOME:  [Microphone not activated]

20             Would the Court Officer please display 65 ter 4494 on the screens

21     before us.

22        Q.   General, when this -- this is a photograph depicting seven men,

23     and it will take a minute to bring it to the screen.  Six of the men are

24     sitting.  After the picture appears on the screen before you, would you

25     please identify the six men sitting down, starting on the left-hand side

Page 4426

 1     of the photograph and moving to the right-hand side of the photograph.  I

 2     will ask you about the man who is standing after you have told us whether

 3     you recognise the first six men.

 4        A.   Could I please stand up because at this angle I can't see too

 5     well.  I can see it much better now.

 6             The first to the left, with the beard, is Stojan Zupljanin.  The

 7     second resembles Frenki, although I'm not positive, since I have never

 8     seen him in civilian clothes.  Next is Momcilo Krajisnik, and

 9     Jovica Stanisic, Radovan Karadzic.  Milan Martic is the last person

10     seated.  And behind him is Dragan Kijac, standing.

11        Q.   General, can you tell us who Dragan Kijac.

12        A.   Dragan Kijac for a while was the interior minister of the RS

13     towards the end of the war, I think, or -- and the first war immediately

14     following the war.

15        Q.   And I think it's the first time during this trial that

16     Stojan Zupljanin's name has been mentioned.  Can you tell us if you know

17     what position he held.

18        A.   Stojan Zupljanin, I saw him only once during the war.  He was the

19     chief of the state security sector in the Banja Luka region.

20        Q.   Do you recognise the location where this photograph was taken?

21        A.   No.  I can only see the curtains and it doesn't tell me anything.

22        Q.   Judging by the appearance of the men in the photograph, are you

23     able to estimate when the photograph was taken?

24        A.   I don't know.  Everyone seems very relaxed and in good spirit.

25     There are no worried faces to be seen.  However, it was probably taken

Page 4427

 1     during the war because Milan Martic is there.  He was the then-president

 2     of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  Perhaps it was towards the end of

 3     the war because we also have Kijac appearing.  Karadzic's and Krajisnik's

 4     hairstyle is unchanged.  Zupljanin -- well, when I saw him in the middle

 5     of the war, he had a beard.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time I would tender

 7     65 ter 4494.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  May I inquire from the Prosecution as to where the

 9     photograph came from, where they received it from.  That might clarify

10     some of the issues that my learned friend was just asking about.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, where did you get it?

12             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I would have to check this, but I

13     believe it was given confidentially to the chief of investigations of the

14     Tribunal.  I'm not sure if the Chamber wishes more information, I'll

15     explore it over the weekend and have more information Wednesday.  But the

16     information I know is very limited about where we received this

17     photograph.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would you -- I take it that Mr. Groome will

19     further inform us.  Is it an objection to admission?

20             MR. JORDASH:  No, it's not an objection.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections from the Simatovic Defence.

22             Madam Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P391, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  P391 is admitted into evidence.

25             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, I would now ask that 65 ter 5053 be

Page 4428

 1     brought up on the screen.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  One question.  You said it was given confidentially.

 3     Does that require any further status as to whether it's a public document

 4     or not?

 5             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.  My understanding is that the

 6     person wished not to be identified, not that the photograph itself needed

 7     to be confidential.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, yes.  Now I understand, yes.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that 65 ter 5053.

11        Q.   General, while that's being displayed and oriented on our

12     screens, can I ask you, were senior officers in the Army of Republika

13     Srpska required to keep diaries or journals of their professional

14     activities?

15        A.   Such a thing was not ordered specifically, but this is the

16     training we had received in military schools, that we were supposed to

17     keep notes in notebooks such as the one that we can see the cover page

18     of.  There was a bigger one used by the more senior officers who moved

19     about in the field, and there was a notebook half the size which could be

20     carried around in your pocket.  Every officer would be issued with one.

21     There were no regulations dictating what notes should be kept, but one

22     was free to record everything done during the day, such as orders

23     received, issued, descriptions of events.  Well, we did basically anyone

24     else would have in terms of keeping notes.

25        Q.   And could -- would -- would an officer or could an officer be

Page 4429

 1     required by his or her superior to produce the book for review?

 2        A.   Each officer had a notebook.  They would be issued with one.  And

 3     when you opened it, on the cover page you would probably find the

 4     following text:  Notebook, working notebook, then the officer's first and

 5     last name, a registry number, and when the notebook is used up it is

 6     supposed to be returned to the office issuing it.

 7             There were no specific orders in terms of production of such

 8     notebooks and requirements for review.  However, if I needed some

 9     information, I would inquire of the relevant officer and they would

10     probably consult their notebooks to remind themselves.  But there was no

11     particular obligation on the part of the subordinate to report on what he

12     had entered.

13             I usually wrote down the things I thought were important or

14     because I was afraid I would forget them.

15        Q.   Now we are looking at on the screen now excerpt number 1 of

16     65 ter 5053.1.  You've already described that we're looking at the cover

17     of these books.

18             MR. GROOME:  So could I ask the Court Officer to please proceed

19     to excerpt 2 of 5053.1.  And it is -- in the English translation it's

20     page 51 or in the original ERN -- the original the ERN ends in 0175.

21             I'm sorry, I misspoke.  It's page 37 in the English translation.

22     So the ERN ending 0175 and the English translation page 37.

23        Q.   General, when I'm -- when this is brought to the screen, I'm

24     going to ask you to take a look at the handwriting.  Please advise us if

25     you need us to make it larger or to do -- change it or re-orient it.  And

Page 4430

 1     my question to you will be whether you recognise the handwriting.

 2             General, while we're sorting out a technical problem, if I could

 3     proceed and ask you a few other questions.  You've mentioned

 4     General Ratko Mladic a number of times in your testimony.

 5             My question to you is:  For what period of time have you known

 6     General Mladic?

 7        A.   I have known General Mladic since April 1981.  We met in the

 8     Titov Veles garrison in Macedonia, and from that time on we became close

 9     associates until 1992, until we both came to the front.  We spent the

10     whole war together.  The last time we saw each other was on the

11     4th of November, 1998.

12        Q.   And can you tell us, did you ever have occasion to see

13     General Mladic's handwriting?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Can you give us some approximation at the frequency with which

16     you would see his handwriting?

17        A.   From the first time that we saw each other, then every day,

18     especially during the war.

19        Q.   Did you ever have occasion to be present at a meeting and observe

20     General Mladic make notes in a diary during that meeting?

21        A.   Yes, we all did that regularly.

22        Q.   Do you know whether it was his practice to make notes as the

23     different participants in a meeting spoke or to wait until a meeting had

24     ended?

25        A.   When he was not speaking, he was constantly writing down --

Page 4431

 1     writing down what the others were saying.

 2        Q.   And did you ever have occasion to read a document immediately

 3     after observing General Mladic write that document?

 4        A.   Yes, because General Mladic, especially during the war, when he

 5     was looking at the mail and he would receive some document that would

 6     perhaps be for me to deal with, then at the top he would write "chief" or

 7     "general," or however he would address me, "do such and such a thing."

 8     Usually -- I have to -- I'm sorry, I have to get up because the angle is

 9     a little bit awkward.  But at the top, for example, it says the day and

10     the date, also the same thing would be written on a typewritten document.

11     He would write:  "Chief, do such and such a thing."  That would be

12     written on the document itself.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have a look at whether the angle of the

14     screen could be adjusted for the witness.  It's usually rather easy to --

15     Madam Usher, is there any way that you could just -- if I change this

16     one, it just goes like that.  That's not a -- okay.

17             MR. GROOME:

18        Q.   General, we're trying to adjust the monitor so you don't have to

19     stand up every time.  Is that better?

20        A.   It's fine.  It's fine.  Thank you.  I don't want to create any

21     problem.

22        Q.   It is important that you have a clear image of it, so please do

23     not hesitate to let us know if we need to do something else to make that

24     possible.

25             General, before I ask you about the substance of this particular

Page 4432

 1     entry, do you recognise the handwriting?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   I want to draw your attention to number 2, the paragraph

 4     number 2, and to the particular point that says:

 5             "... has permission from Stanisic to form the Red Berets at

 6     Ozren ..."

 7             Do you know or are you able to tell us who Stanisic refers to?

 8        A.   First of all, I don't see that here.  I don't see what you've

 9     just read out.  I can see under 2:  "Lazarevic, Slavko, a.k.a. Amerika."

10        Q.   Could I ask you to please keep reading that and maybe -- I'm not

11     sure whether we're trimming off the right-hand portion of the document,

12     but we're both in the same paragraph.  I was a few -- I was one line

13     ahead of you.  So if you continue reading that.

14        A.   "Lazarevic Slavko, a.k.a., Amerika, now called Duganovic or

15     Diganovic, lives in Belgrade and has permission from Stanisic to form the

16     Red Berets at Ozren (Mico wrote an order for Bozovic [as interpreted] to

17     form a special unit at the public security centre in Doboj, and these

18     units would" -- I can't read this word.  "For CSB in Doboj and these

19     units would" --

20        Q.   If you're unable to read it, that's -- you are unable to read --

21        A.   I'm not capable of reading it, but this Stanisic in the

22     parenthesis it says, "Mico wrote an order for Boskovic," I think it's

23     Mico Stanisic who for a while was the minister of internal affairs of

24     Republika Srpska.  So this is not Jovica Stanisic, I think, but

25     Mico Stanisic.

Page 4433

 1        Q.   So it's your belief that the first Stanisic that's mentioned,

 2     "has permission from Stanisic to form the Red Berets," is it your

 3     evidence that you believe that that is Mico Stanisic that is being

 4     referred to?

 5        A.   Only his name is mentioned.  I don't think that Mladic would have

 6     left that.  We all would emphasise the name when talking about

 7     Jovica Stanisic, we would all make sure that that was there because it

 8     was a person from another state.  I think it's Mico Stanisic because

 9     Jovica Stanisic would not have been able to write an order for the unit

10     to be located in Doboj, in any case.

11        Q.   General, in the -- the problem with the monitor, I -- we skipped

12     an answer to a question.  My question to you when we first looked at this

13     was whether you recognised the handwriting of the person who wrote it.

14     Just so the record is clear, can I ask you that again?

15        A.   I didn't answer because I didn't know whether it was okay for me

16     to mention the name.  Can I mention the name of the person whose

17     handwriting this is?

18        Q.   Yes, you can, if you recognise it.

19        A.   General Ratko Mladic.

20        Q.   I would now ask that we look at the last entry in this diary.

21             MR. GROOME:  It's 65 ter 5053.1, excerpt number 3.  This begins

22     on page 153 or 155 as the diary is internally numbered or with the

23     ERN ending 0277 and starts on page 139 in the English translation, and it

24     continues for two pages.

25             General, after you've had an opportunity to study the

Page 4434

 1     handwriting, I would again ask you:  Do you recognise the author of this

 2     handwriting?

 3        A.   It looks like it was written on the knee, on the lap, but it is

 4     still Ratko Mladic's handwriting.

 5        Q.   And the portion or the entry that I'm interested in is recounting

 6     a meeting at Tara on the 28th of February, 1993.  Am I correct in saying

 7     that's at the bottom half of the diary entry?  Can you see the entry for

 8     a meeting at Tara?

 9        A.   I see the heading:  "Planning of actions."  And then there is an

10     abbreviation, JSO, I don't know what that means.  Present Panic; Ojdanic,

11     he was the commander of the Uzice Corps at the time; Loncar; I don't know

12     the following name, I can't read it; then Frenki; and two from -- Frenki

13     and two from the MUP, from the Ministry of Internal Affairs, but it

14     doesn't state who.  In certain sectors the units -- actually, the units

15     are in certain regions or garrisons for Osmace, Jadar, Kragivode, go

16     with -- and there is an abbreviation there, PO, I don't know what that

17     means, and for Kragivode, and I can't read any further -- actually, there

18     is no more text.

19             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders

20     these three excerpts from 65 ter 5053.  They have been extracted from the

21     entire diary and combined as a single exhibit now referred to as

22     65 ter 5053.1.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objection?  If not, Madam Registrar, the number

24     would be ...?

25             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P392, Your Honours.

Page 4435

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 2             Mr. Groome, would you please perhaps submit the translation again

 3     because it seems that the word processor has taken those who -- the name

 4     Loncar appears as "Loncararticle," which sounds a bit odd and is not in

 5     conformity with the original.

 6             MR. GROOME:  And it also seems, Your Honour, just so that the

 7     record is clear, that General Milovanovic has referred to operation

 8     planning with JSO and the translation seems to be Udar, U-d-a-r.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, whatever it is.

10             Mr. Petrovic.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yes.  I just wanted

12     to mention what my learned friend Mr. Groome mentioned.  I would perhaps

13     like to have the text enlarged for the General so that he can see what it

14     says below "planning," because it doesn't actually read what he thinks it

15     reads.  The letters are kind of smaller.  So perhaps it would be easier

16     for the General just to look at an enlarged image of the writing.

17             MR. GROOME:

18        Q.   General, perhaps now that it is enlarged, can I ask you to take

19     the pen in front of you and circle where you read "JSO."

20        A.   I didn't say "JSO."  I said it is written in the Latinic script

21     "JSO," but I don't know what that abbreviation means.  I mean, I'm

22     surprised.  Mladic constantly writes in the Cyrillic alphabet, so I don't

23     know why he was using the Roman alphabet because the S is written in the

24     Roman alphabet.  And this third letter, I don't even know whether that's

25     an O or not.

Page 4436

 1        Q.   General --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, let's -- I see that that's between

 3     brackets which do not appear in any way, is not reflected in the

 4     translation.

 5             Is there anything, having closely looked now at the text, does it

 6     in any way influence any of the answers you've given?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is this a question for me?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see anything new here that

10     I didn't see the first time I can decipher.  Panic is the Chief of the

11     General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia.  "Ja" is -- "I" is Ratko Mladic.

12     Then there is Ojdanic, Loncar, and then there were two generals.  One

13     Loncar was the Chief of Staff of the Army of Serbian Krajina, and the

14     other one was the chief of the East Slavonia Corps.  I think that's the

15     11th Corps.  So I don't know which Loncar it is here.  The third one I

16     don't know.  Then there is this person Kac [phoen], Kac Stevo was the

17     commander of the air force base Ponikve, near Uzice.  So I don't know

18     whether he was air force or infantry officer.  The units were in certain

19     sectors - garrisons.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there.  The issue raised -- first of

21     all, the document has been admitted into evidence and, Mr. Petrovic,

22     you're invited to comment on -- give these kind of comments before it is

23     admitted.  Apparently the JSO or Udar matter is -- unless you have any

24     reason to believe that the witness could clarify this apart from that he

25     can read what apparently everyone who would speak the language could

Page 4437

 1     read.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, what I think would be important is just

 3     to ask him to circle the portion that we've been talking about, the Latin

 4     script and what he read, and then save that as a separate exhibit.  I

 5     think that would assist us if there is a question about the ultimate text

 6     later, and that's what I would ask him to do.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then could you give the -- Madam Usher, could

 8     you give the pen to the witness?

 9             MR. GROOME:  Can the Usher please --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the Usher -- could you please give the -- one

11     second, Mr. Milovanovic.

12             MR. GROOME:

13        Q.   General, there is a special pen that if you use that, we can see

14     what you're writing, it shows up on our screens as well, and the Usher is

15     going to assist you with that now.

16             So if you would simply circle the text that you've referred to as

17     being the Latin script which you understood to read "JSO."

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   Thank you.

20        A.   However, listening to you and I think the lawyer, I have

21     deciphered this word after the word "as part of."  This is an abbreviated

22     word for Operation, "Oper."  So it's:  "Planning actions as part of the

23     Udar Operation."  Your Honour, you helped me in deciphering this middle

24     letter.  It's not an S, it's a D in the Cyrillic script, and then we have

25     an R.  So this is some kind of operation called Udar.  I personally know

Page 4438

 1     that the operation was planned, but it was not actually carried out.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that this resolves the problem?

 3             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour, but I would ask that we tender --

 4     we save this screen image now that it's been created.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, although it seems that it now is fully

 6     reflected by the translation.  But if you insist.

 7             Madam Registrar, a number for this marked version of the document

 8     would be ...?

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P393, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  P393 is admitted into evidence.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. GROOME:

13        Q.   General, I want to work with a different diary at this time.

14             MR. GROOME:  And I would ask the Court Officer to bring to the

15     screen 65 ter 5016.1.  It is a series of diary entries extracted from

16     65 ter 5016.

17        Q.   Now, we are going to see the first page and there is insufficient

18     amount of text in this page to ask you about the handwriting.  I simply

19     want to note for the Court that the first page of this book bears the

20     name Kertes and two six-digit numbers.

21             And if I could ask your assistance, General, during the conflict

22     how many digits were in a telephone number?

23        A.   First of all, in the Main Staff we had land-line communications

24     with the Belgrade dialling code in our staff in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25     We never wrote in the Belgrade area code 011.  At the time Belgrade had

Page 4439

 1     six-digit telephone numbers.  I think after the war some seven-digit

 2     telephone numbers were introduced, but at the time there were only

 3     six-digit telephone numbers.  So these numbers could have been both in

 4     Serbia or Republika Srpska.  We actually had 31 channels with Belgrade

 5     numbers.

 6        Q.   So given that there is nothing preceding the six digits, does

 7     that lead you to a conclusion as to whether this is a Belgrade number or

 8     not?

 9        A.   I think that this would be a Belgrade number, and this name

10     Kertes, we know or it's known who this person by the name of Kertes was.

11     I think he was the director of the customs administration of Serbia.

12        Q.   Can you tell us his full name?

13        A.   No, just the last name.

14             MR. GROOME:  I would ask that we proceed to 65 ter 5016.1 excerpt

15     number 2.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, could we ask what a T or a K would stand

17     for in relation to a telephone number, if it is a telephone number.

18             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

19        Q.   General Milovanovic, are you able to assist us with what the T or

20     the K means?

21        A.   The T, I don't know what that stands for.  The K would refer to

22     "kuca," home number.  People would always take two numbers.  One would be

23     the work number and the other one -- I don't know how that would be

24     indicated.  And K would for stand for "kuca," home, so if he wasn't at

25     work they would look at him at home, and vice versa.

Page 4440

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Groome.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Can we now proceed to excerpt 2.  It is found in the

 3     original at page ending 0375, and in the English translation at page 42.

 4        Q.   General, in the interests of time, I'm simply going to ask you to

 5     study the document until you can make a reliable identification of the

 6     handwriting and simply tell us if you recognise the handwriting.

 7        A.   Could we zoom in a little bit, please, on the bottom part of the

 8     page.  I don't see it very well.

 9        Q.   And again, the diary entry is rather explicit, so it -- there may

10     not be a need for you to comment on the substance, but are you able to

11     identify the handwriting?

12        A.   This is Mladic's handwriting, and what he is writing here is

13     intended for General Djukic and his assistant for logistics.  He is

14     informing him here what and how much assistance is being given to him and

15     by whom.  They were referring to some 40 million bullets from the

16     Partizan factory.  They're referring to some money from the government,

17     from this and that.  So it's some sort of a donation here.  There is a

18     Trbic, some oil man probably, who gave some 200 tonnes of oil to

19     Republika Srpska, to the army.

20             MR. GROOME:  Now if I could ask that we move to excerpt number 3

21     of 65 ter 5016.1.  It's a two-page entry that begins in the original on

22     page ending 0375 and page 72 of the English translation.

23        Q.   General, while we are orienting that on the screen before you,

24     could you tell us what the word "Pretis" stands for, p-r-e-t-i-s.

25        A.   Pretis is our ammunitions factory in Sarajevo.  It was in Vogosca

Page 4441

 1     until the end of the war.  After the Dayton Accords it was evacuated.

 2        Q.   Now, do you have or can you make an assessment as to whether you

 3     recognise the handwriting in this entry?

 4        A.   The bottom part, this bottom part where it says "meeting with

 5     General Perisic and Jovica Stanisic, present" -- once again Perisic,

 6     Stanisic, Gvero, and myself.  Again, this is Mladic's handwriting.  At

 7     the top this resembles Mladic's "rukopis" but it seems to be written at

 8     an angle somewhat so I couldn't really swear that it was Mladic's

 9     handwriting.  But probably it is because it is on the same page, same

10     kind of paper.

11        Q.   General, so that we're certain, the portion of the diary entry

12     that is below the date of 6 April 1995 is the portion of this page that

13     you are certain is the handwriting of General Mladic?

14        A.   I'm sure about the top part also.  Only the pen is different,

15     that's why I was confused.  He used black ink at the top and blue ink at

16     the bottom.  And I cannot read at the top to whom the -- this was sent.

17     Or maybe he was just writing a reminder for himself to emphasise -- what

18     to emphasise, "istaci," at that meeting.

19        Q.   Could I ask that we go to the second page of this excerpt, and

20     the portion of this that I would draw your attention to is there is an

21     asterisk or star with a double underline.  Are you able to read the very

22     top line of this page?

23        A.   "Jovica Stanisic" is underlined and it's -- has an asterisk next.

24        Q.   Can I ask you to read the diary, and you can read it to yourself.

25     We have a translation.  But the question that I'm interested in asking

Page 4442

 1     you is:  Given what you know of General Mladic and working with him,

 2     would you -- is the text that we see below "J. Stanisic" that's double

 3     underlined, is that -- do you believe that to be a recording of what

 4     J. Stanisic said at this occasion?

 5        A.   I'm afraid I don't understand.  Are you asking me whether what

 6     Mladic noted down was uttered by Jovica Stanisic or was it something

 7     Mladic told Stanisic?

 8        Q.   I'm asking you the first version of what you've said.  Is what's

 9     underneath Stanisic's name what Stanisic said?  If you're able to tell.

10        A.   I can't say.  See, the asterisk and the double line, this would

11     indicate that Mladic wanted to pay particular attention to that part of

12     the text.  However, the asterisk could indicate that this was something

13     Mladic had drafted in order to share with Stanisic.  But it could also be

14     the other way around, and then Mladic underlined it to keep it in mind

15     when later on leafing through the notebook.  In any case, for some reason

16     he believed this part of the text to be important.

17             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that we go to the very last line in this

18     entry.

19        Q.   And, General, I would ask you to read this line out loud to all

20     of us.

21        A.    "To have more freedom to act" and then the last word begins with

22     t-r-a but I can't make out the rest.  I can circle it if you wish.

23        Q.   I don't believe that's necessary at the moment, but my question

24     to you is:  Are you able to assist us in what this might be referring to

25     or place it in the context of what was happening around the 6th of April,

Page 4443

 1     1995, when this entry was made?

 2        A.   Please repeat your question.  I was focusing on something else.

 3     I was reading.

 4        Q.   My question is:  Can you help us understand what is intended by

 5     that last line or place it in the context of what was occurring in the

 6     6th of April, 1995, the day this entry was made?

 7        A.   There is something else I just realised.  Jovica Stanisic said

 8     this to Mladic and Mladic noted it down because in the fifth line from

 9     the top it says:  "I sent 150 men from Slavonia as part of Pauk."

10             I don't know what Pauk refers to.  I don't think it's

11     Operation Spider that we discussed today because it's not at the same

12     time, but Mladic could not have told Stanisic that he had sent 150 men

13     from Slavonia because Mladic did not have any men in Slavonia.

14        Q.   Does -- so am I correct in that your interpretation is that where

15     you said "to have more freedom to act," that you believe that this is

16     Mladic recording the statement of Mr. Stanisic; is that what you're

17     saying?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that there's a confusion, and I'd like to

19     clarify that.

20             Mr. Milovanovic, you're asked a question and then you said:

21             "There is something else I just realised.  Jovica Stanisic said

22     this to Mladic ..."

23             Now, did I understand you well that where you had been reading

24     the content of it, that it suddenly came to your mind that what was

25     recorded, not on the last line but on the lines above, that this must

Page 4444

 1     have been what Mr. Stanisic would have said to General Mladic rather than

 2     the other way around?  Or was it an answer specifically in relation to

 3     the last line of this page?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not specifically in relation to

 5     the last line.  At the beginning I said that I was uncertain whether it

 6     was Mladic who had noted down what he was going to tell Stanisic or

 7     whether he wrote down what Stanisic told him.  And then I realised that

 8     because of the mention of 150 men from Slavonia, it could've been [as

 9     interpreted] Mladic who sent them.  And then I realised that Stanisic

10     said that to Mladic and Mladic wrote it down.

11             As for the "more freedom to act" line, I'm not sure Mladic would

12     suddenly revert to the capitals, but it could have something to do with

13     less control of the convoys.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, that's how I understood the answer, to

15     be a further reflection on a question you had asked earlier and not

16     specifically an answer to the last line; whereas you, in your next

17     question, interpreted the words of the witness as being an answer to your

18     last question, which I gained -- I had the impression was not and I think

19     that's now -- so if we want to pay attention to the last line you should

20     then re-start that portion of your examination.

21             MR. GROOME:  Thank you for your assistance in clarifying that.

22        Q.   Can I ask you, now that you had a chance to think for a few

23     minutes about this entry, can you tell us, do you have a reliable

24     interpretation of that last line, given that it appears to be in capital

25     letters and the text of that line?

Page 4445

 1        A.   I've already offered my interpretation, to have more freedom to

 2     act so that there would be less control and more mutual trust.  If there

 3     is a vehicle carrying assistance from Serbia via Republika Srpska to the

 4     Republic of Serbian Krajina, still it is stopped at every check-point,

 5     searched, registered, and so on.  Mladic simply wanted a more liberal

 6     regime so as not to stall things.  He simply wanted us to trust each

 7     other, to trust the one sending the goods as well as the one receiving

 8     it.

 9        Q.   From that answer do I take that you don't see that last sentence

10     as a record of what Jovica Stanisic said, but as Mladic recording his own

11     thoughts on restrictions that may have been in effect?

12        A.   Precisely.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, could I ask one additional question.

14             Earlier you said that you had difficulties in deciphering the

15     last word of that line.  Were you able to decipher that last word?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not able.  I'm still

17     pondering it.  It could be "transparent" or "transport," something of

18     that sort.  I'm unable to decipher it.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             Mr. Groome, this requires at least that further attention will be

21     paid to the understanding of this last word, which apparently for those

22     who translated it were able to read, but there seems to be perhaps a

23     little problem there.

24             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, given that the witness before us is

25     probably best equipped to interpret the handwriting and he is unable, I

Page 4446

 1     will ask that that be marked illegible in the translation.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's first try to find out, first of all,

 3     what the persons who appear to be able to read it, what they think the

 4     word is.  And if then it's on loose grounds that it was translated as it

 5     has been translated, then of course it should be declared illegible.  But

 6     if it's not on loose grounds, then -- but what I wanted -- I want it to

 7     be verified.

 8             MR. GROOME:  I will do that, Your Honour.

 9             If we could proceed to the next excerpt, it's 5016.1, excerpt 4.

10     This is a two-page entry beginning in the original on ERN ending 0457 and

11     in the English on 124.

12        Q.   Again, in the interests of time, could I ask you to simply study

13     it until you are able to tell us whether you recognise the handwriting,

14     and we will rely on the plain text of the diary.

15        A.   The handwriting is that of General Mladic.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Could we now please move to excerpt number 5 -- I'm

17     sorry, General, you have your -- you want to say something.

18        A.   As you were removing the previous page, perhaps because of the

19     angle or the light, concerning the last line, I think I now know what it

20     means.  So to have more freedom to act and then, "- seek a position."

21     Mladic wanted to have a position of probably a state official.  So he was

22     trying to remind himself that he was supposed to ask for a position on

23     that.

24        Q.   Can you please clarify what you're saying now.  He was supposed

25     to ask who for a position?

Page 4447

 1        A.   He wrote it down to use it as an aide-memoire, to ask for a

 2     position of civilian authorities.  He was to propose to those whom he was

 3     seeking a position from, that they should be allowed to act more freely.

 4     He probably noted it down so as not to forget.

 5             I'm positive that the last two words is "seek a position" or "ask

 6     for a position."  Whether Jovica asked him to have more freedom to act

 7     and then Mladic was supposed to ask for a position or something else,

 8     that is irrelevant.  In any case, it is suggested that more room be

 9     provided to act and that a position should be sought.  As -- and also

10     most of the text is written in the second-person plural, which would be

11     out of respect.  So I conclude it was Jovica Stanisic who was asking him

12     to get a position on that.

13        Q.   Okay.

14             MR. GROOME:  If we could now move to excerpt number 5.  Again,

15     this is -- ends in ERN 473 and the English translation is on page 140.

16        Q.   Again, in the interests of time I'll rely on the plain text, but

17     do you recognise this handwriting as well?

18        A.   Mladic's handwriting.

19        Q.   General, I believe there may have been a mistake in the

20     transcript.  I just want to go back to page 78.  It has to do with when

21     you were referring to the 150 men from Slavonia.  Were you saying that

22     Mladic could not send 150 men from Slavonia or could send 150 men from

23     Slavonia?

24        A.   He could not.  We had no men there.  It was in the territory of

25     Republika Srpska Krajina.

Page 4448

 1             MR. GROOME:  Now, if we could now move to excerpt number 6.  This

 2     is the second-to-last excerpt.  It ends in the original 0521, and this is

 3     a two-page entry.

 4        Q.   General, while it's being oriented --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you asked any questions about the previous one?

 8             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.  In the interests of time I was

 9     going to rely on the plain text of it unless the Chamber -- I'm just

10     conscious of the time.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Now I better understand why you move to the

12     next excerpt.  Please proceed.

13             MR. GROOME:

14        Q.   My first question again will be:  Do you recognise the

15     handwriting?

16        A.   Yes, this is Mladic's handwriting.

17        Q.   Now, can I ask you to focus on the entry recording what is

18     referred to as "talk with President Karadzic" in Pale on the

19     23rd of June 1995.  Do you see that entry?

20        A.   No, sorry.  No?  A discussion with President Milosevic and

21     General Perisic.

22             MR. GROOME:  I'm unable to see the ERN number but it should end

23     with 0521.  There seems to be some error in what's up on the screen.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, there's also a number on

25     the back of this page.  I think it's 474.

Page 4449

 1             MR. GROOME:

 2        Q.   General, while we're --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, I further notice that there seems to

 4     appear a time in the original at the right top which seems not to be

 5     there in the English version.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I believe we have the wrong original,

 7     so I'm going to see if we can sort that.  The ERN number is different

 8     than the one I'm calling out.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but then at least for the one we had on our

10     screen there seems to be a translation issue as well.  But I'm not going

11     to insist on that.  Let's try to get -- perhaps for those who will ever

12     use this page in the future.

13             MR. GROOME:

14        Q.   General, while we're waiting to see if we can get up the correct

15     entry on the screen, can you tell us where Trnovo is?

16        A.   Are you asking me?

17        Q.   Yes.

18        A.   Trnovo is a small town between Sarajevo and Kalinovik, closer to

19     Sarajevo than to Kalinovik, perhaps some 20 kilometres away from

20     Sarajevo.

21        Q.   And now that we have the correct page, can I ask you:  Do you

22     recognise the handwriting?

23        A.   Yes, it is General Mladic's.

24             MR. GROOME:  Could we scroll down to the bottom.

25        Q.   And I draw your attention to the "talk with President Karadzic"

Page 4450

 1     in Pale on the 23rd of June, 1995.  Let us know when you've read that and

 2     I'll ask the Usher to advance to the next page.

 3        A.   "Conversation with President Karadzic, those in attendance, Toso

 4     Tolimir, Skrbic -- Petar Skrbic, and I," meaning General Mladic.

 5     "Officer promotions agreed upon."

 6             I can comment.  It was just before the 28th of June, which was

 7     the patron saint's day of the Army of the VRS when officer promotions

 8     took place, and he discussed this with the supreme commander.

 9        Q.   General, could I show you the remainder of the entry before I ask

10     for your comment on it.

11             MR. GROOME:  And I ask that we advance to the next page.

12        Q.   And the portion of the -- this diary entry that the Prosecution

13     is most interested in is the last line.  Could I ask you to read that

14     aloud.

15             MR. GROOME:  It's at the top of the page of the -- could we

16     scroll up, please.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the rank of general, a promotion

18     was decided upon for Sladoje, it was Colonel Cedo Sladoje.  Then

19     Dusan Kukobad [phoen], who was the Chief of Staff of the

20     2nd Krajina Corps.  Then Miladin Prstojevic, Chief of Staff of the

21     Herzegovina Corps for later.  Others will be promoted, and then it

22     doesn't say when.  We have to -- we have to make or create something at

23     Trnovo, although I can't make out what.

24             MR. GROOME:

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 4451

 1             MR. GROOME:  Could we now move to the last entry I'll ask --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Is this the last entry you want to deal with?

 3             MR. GROOME:  One more entry, Your Honour, and then a one-minute

 4     video-clip, Your Honour, and that's it.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because we -- let me just check with the

 6     Registrar.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We have a bit of an unusual schedule.  We'll -- if

 9     you'd finish, then we could skip the afternoon session.  I'm looking at

10     interpretation, transcription, and technicians, whether we could -- how

11     much time would it take?

12             MR. GROOME:  It's about ten questions, Your Honour.  Please don't

13     count.  I'd have to count if you're going to hold me to ten, but I'm

14     really on the last page of my examination.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we continue and so to save that we have to

16     return this afternoon because I would need three minutes for reading a

17     decision as well which is so urgent that we can't leave that until next

18     week.

19             Then under those circumstances.  I'm also looking at you,

20     Mr. Stanisic, it's a bit longer that we usually do.  Is that -- would

21     that -- I see that it apparently causes no such problem that we would

22     have to refrain from doing it.

23             Please proceed, Mr. Groome.

24             MR. GROOME:

25        Q.   General, I'd now ask you to look at 65 ter 5016.1, excerpt 7.  It

Page 4452

 1     begins in the original with an ERN that ends in 536.  And the entry that

 2     I want to draw your attention to is a -- records a meeting in Belgrade on

 3     the 30th of June, 1995.  And are you able to see that entry?

 4        A.   Yes, I can see it.

 5        Q.   Can you identify for us who the participants are?

 6        A.   I wasn't there.  I was in Drvar at the time, but let me just see

 7     if Mladic wrote down who was present.  No, there are no notes about those

 8     present, perhaps at the bottom, but if he didn't note it down at the

 9     beginning he would hardly do it at the end.

10        Q.   I want to draw your attention to the third page of this entry

11     where we see at the top where -- I'm sorry, it's the second page.

12     There's an entry for JS.  When you've had an opportunity to see that, my

13     question would be:  After reading the entry, are you able to tell us who

14     JS is?

15        A.   Can you please tell me -- JS, yes, I can see this is on the fifth

16     line from the bottom.

17             "JS:  Which forces can be engaged by General Mrksic."

18             I don't know, perhaps JS, these are somebody's initials.  This is

19     something that this JS said because then afterwards it -- it's written

20     "JS" and a colon and what JS said is stated:  "Which forces can

21     General Mrksic engage."

22             At the time General Mrksic was the commander of the Serbian army

23     of the Krajina.  So the question is being asked if the Army of the

24     Serbian Krajina can be used for something.

25        Q.   Can I draw your attention to page 4 of this entry, and we see the

Page 4453

 1     initials JS again and there's a text immediately after JS.  I'd ask you

 2     to read that aloud.

 3        A.   I don't see that fourth page.  I can still see which forces can

 4     General Mrksic engage -- ah, I can see a little bit more now.  Are you

 5     asking me to look at this JS again?

 6        Q.   If you could read aloud just the first sentence of what is

 7     recorded as JS or after JS.

 8        A.    "My men should be taken into account in the utmost way when an

 9     operation is being planned.  I have no confidence in Mile Novakovic, at

10     least as far as competency or professionalism is concerned.  The -- they

11     have not given any assistance to the corps command for at least

12     six months, and I have to ask that they be taken into account.  My men

13     were told the first day that they were paramilitaries.  Pecanac should be

14     informed" -- no, no, no, "Pecanac should be separated with 400 men, rest

15     for seven days, and assign to General Mrksic."

16        Q.   Now, the last entry that I want you to read is -- or the last

17     portion of this entry is on the last page, page 5, and there there are

18     two passages after JS.  Could I ask you to read both of what appears

19     after the initials JS aloud?

20        A.   Yes, may I?

21        Q.   Yes, please.

22        A.   There are two JS entries here.  I'm reading the first one.

23             "I can find 120 perfect men who would go there in seven days.

24     These would be people from the eastern sector.  That would be the

25     support."

Page 4454

 1             And then again JS, and there was an M there that was crossed out

 2     with just the JS remaining.

 3             "They should not be engaged (we gave 80 from Erdut, we gave

 4     80 from Djeletovci."

 5        Q.   Now, are you able to tell from the context what does the 80 refer

 6     to?  Are we talking about 80 men?  80 cars?  80 weapons?  Are you able to

 7     tell from the context what the 80, 80 from Erdut, 80 from Djeletovci?

 8        A.   I think that this refers to men because the same JS says above

 9     that 120 perfect men were taken from the eastern sector and then they

10     should not be engaged, because of this engaged.  We gave 80 from Erdut,

11     we gave 80 from Djeletovci.  So he already has 160 men somewhere, so

12     these 120 should not then be engaged for some task that was being

13     discussed.

14        Q.   Now, based on your experience and knowledge of the conflict, are

15     you able to assist in what 80 men from Erdut might be referring to?

16        A.   This is probably an operation or a preparation for an operation

17     because I can see, when we were reading previous entries by JS, somebody

18     was complaining that the corps commander of the Serbian army of the

19     Krajina was not helping, and General Mile Novakovic was being charged

20     with not working very well.  So there was some kind of military operation

21     that these men needed to be engaged in.  Perhaps these were some

22     120 perfect men, were they perhaps specially trained soldiers or special

23     formations.  In any case, these seem to be some kind of special men.

24        Q.   And with respect to 80 from Djeletovci, would your answer be the

25     same or do you -- based on your experience and knowledge of the conflict,

Page 4455

 1     are you able to be precise or more precise about what 80 men from

 2     Djeletovci might be referring to?

 3        A.   I don't know.  We would need to find what was in Djeletovci, was

 4     it the police or the army that was stationed there.  I don't know what

 5     was stationed there.  This is not in the territory of Bosnia and

 6     Herzegovina.  Erdut, I think, is somewhere in Baranja.  I heard about

 7     that through the media, but I don't know anything about Djeletovci.  I

 8     hadn't heard anything about that until now.

 9             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution would

10     tender 65 ter Exhibit 5016.1.  It is a set of seven excerpts from the

11     larger diary of 5016.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

13             Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P394, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  P394 is admitted into evidence.

16             Yes, please proceed.

17             MR. GROOME:

18        Q.   And finally, General, I'm going to ask you to look at

19     approximately one minute of videotape.  It is 65 ter 1167.1.  The time

20     code in this document is 1 hour, 39 minutes, and 29 seconds, to 1 hour,

21     40 minutes, and 16 seconds.  I would ask you to pay particular attention

22     to the vehicle we see and the uniforms that we see.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             MR. GROOME:

25        Q.   General, having looked at the video, are you able to tell us

Page 4456

 1     whether the vehicle we see is a vehicle of the Army of Republika Srpska?

 2        A.   It's a military TAM 110 vehicle.  I didn't see the licence plates

 3     or the number, so I cannot really say whether it is a vehicle of the

 4     Army of Republika Srpska or not.

 5        Q.   Are you able to tell us whether the armed men we see in the video

 6     are wearing uniforms that identify them as soldiers in the Army of

 7     Republika Srpska?

 8        A.   They're not soldiers of the Army of Republika Srpska because the

 9     Army of Republika Srpska did not -- or their soldiers did not wear red

10     berets.

11        Q.   Are you able to identify the organisation that these men are

12     associated with by looking at the uniforms they are wearing?

13        A.   No, I really couldn't say because different uniforms were worn.

14     All I know is that the Army of Republika Srpska did not have any red

15     berets.  As for who wore red berets and whom I met in the Republic of the

16     Serbian Krajina when I went there, that is something I really couldn't

17     say who these people are because I don't have any other symbols other

18     than the Serbian tricolour on the beret.  But the Serbian tricolour was

19     worn by the Army of Republika Srpska, by the Army of Yugoslavia, and, I

20     don't know, perhaps the special police also wore that, from Yugoslavia.

21        Q.   General, if I may play you just a short clip from earlier on in

22     the video where there is a clearer picture of the uniform, perhaps that

23     will assist you.

24             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask Mr. Laugel to play from 2 minutes,

25     11 seconds, to 2 minutes, 51 seconds.

Page 4457

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps you stop at the point where you want to have

 2     a still.

 3             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             MR. GROOME:

 6        Q.   There's no sound in this video, General, so if you do want to

 7     make a comment as we view it or want us to freeze on any particular

 8     section, please just indicate that.

 9        A.   Stop.  I can see the flag of a unit which was called the

10     Skorpions, and I can recognise it by the emblem of the scorpion below the

11     letters where it says "Skorpions."  It's a little bit illegible, but this

12     is the Skorpions unit.

13        Q.   Now, there's no need to play the --

14             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, do you want me to play the remainder

15     of the video before I tender --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No --

17             MR. GROOME:  I'm sorry --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I've seen what I've seen.  I'm usually not

19     happy to ask to be -- to admit into evidence any portion which we have

20     not seen.

21             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I misspoke, I'm not seeking to tender

22     this exhibit.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. GROOME:  I would ask that it be marked for identification.

25     The cameraman will be testifying later in the trial.

Page 4458

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             Could you assign a number to it, Madam Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P395, marked for

 4     identification, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And it keeps that status for the time being.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             Well, Mr. Groome, I'm looking at the clock.  And we're now

 8     certainly ten minutes beyond what we -- and I need some time as well.

 9     Could you finish --

10             MR. GROOME:  One more question.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  One more question, yes.

12             MR. GROOME:

13        Q.   General, we see in the picture here that these men are wearing

14     black uniforms and red berets.  Based on your experience and knowledge of

15     the conflict, was there any other unit that you observed wearing black

16     uniforms and red berets?

17        A.   There were no black uniforms and red berets in the territory of

18     the Army of Republika Srpska.  I'm not aware that any unit of the Army of

19     Republika Srpska or of the police of Republika Srpska ever wore black

20     uniforms.

21        Q.   Any paramilitary unit?

22        A.   As for paramilitary units, they disappeared in 1992 for the most

23     part.  The only ones that remained were two or three groups around

24     Sarajevo.  These were Vaske's Chetniks, Aleksic's Chetniks, and

25     Manda's Chetniks.  They didn't interfere or bother the army, but they

Page 4459

 1     were also not under the jurisdiction of the army, they were under the

 2     jurisdiction of the MUP.

 3        Q.   General, I'd only be interested if there was a paramilitary group

 4     that you had seen wearing black uniforms and red berets.  Did you ever

 5     see a paramilitary unit wearing a black uniform and a red beret in

 6     Bosnia?

 7        A.   No, no, I didn't.

 8             MR. GROOME:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.

10             Before I read a decision which has to be done in private session,

11     Mr. Groome, I do understand that you would need another 15 minutes on

12     Wednesday.  Would that exclusively deal with the chart similar to the

13     ones we have seen today?

14             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour, only that.  But it would depend on

15     the Court's accepting my proposal and Defence counsel accepting my

16     proposal.  If I could make that -- I could set that proposal out in a

17     minute.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you could do that.

19             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, General Milovanovic worked all day

20     yesterday reviewing documents, but was unable to get through all of the

21     documents.  There are two more binders; I brought them here to court.

22     What I propose is that I give these to the Court Officer, that Defence

23     counsel check these binders to be satisfied that there's nothing in it

24     other than the documents and the forms for General Milovanovic to fill

25     out.  General Milovanovic has agreed to review them over the weekend and

Page 4460

 1     that he return them through VWS to the Court Officer, who would then

 2     distribute the form that he filled out.  And then on Wednesday I would

 3     have that translated and that would be my examination, just those

 4     documents.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and he would then do that without being

 6     assisted by anyone or not in the presence of anyone?

 7             MR. GROOME:  Assisted by no one.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, by no one.

 9             Mr. Jordash.

10             MR. JORDASH:  I perfectly agree with that, but I don't think we

11     need to check -- I certainly don't need to check the file.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, you have an opportunity.  If you don't

13     need to do it, that's fine, I take it.

14             Mr. Petrovic.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we're fine as far as

16     that's concerned.  We're all right.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             Mr. Milovanovic, Mr. Groome has quite some homework for you, from

19     what I understand.  You will be provided with the binder where you find a

20     similar series of documents and a chart where you're invited to fill that

21     in.  I do understand that you have declared yourself available to do

22     that.  Is that correctly understood?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you're right.  This is what I

24     agreed on with the Prosecutor yesterday.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, when we will adjourn in one or two minutes from

Page 4461

 1     now, I will instruct you that you should not speak with anyone or

 2     communicate with anyone about your testimony, whether that is testimony

 3     you've given already or whether that is testimony still to be given next

 4     week.  Now, I would similarly want to instruct you that if you do this

 5     job, you should do it just on your own, without consulting anyone,

 6     without allowing anyone to follow what you are doing.  So it will be a

 7     lonely job for you to do, but these are my instructions, which, of

 8     course, are based on your willingness to assist the Court.  And it's

 9     highly appreciated that you want to do it because it saves us time in

10     court to go through all these documents and then to learn exactly what

11     we'll learn if we look at your charts as you have -- as you have given

12     your information in those columns.

13             Therefore, you are excused for now.  We would like to see you

14     back on Wednesday, next week Wednesday, quarter past 2.00 in the

15     afternoon in this same courtroom, and I already gave you my instructions

16     that you should not speak or communicate with anyone about your

17     testimony.

18             Since there seems to be no wish to inspect the materials, they

19     can be given to the witness.  Is it two binders or one binder?

20             MR. GROOME:  It's two binders.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Two binders.

22             MR. GROOME:  One with 14 documents, one with 40 documents.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             Then, Mr. Milovanovic, you may follow the Usher, who will then

25     hand out to you the two binders.

Page 4462

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I have a brief decision to be delivered which cannot

 4     wait until next week, but we have to turn into private session for that

 5     purpose.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4463











11  Page 4463 redacted. Private session.















Page 4464

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

14             I thoroughly thank all those who have assisted us for going again

15     beyond the time, and so that the public also knows I'm considering how

16     to -- I could pay my debts towards you.

17             We adjourn.  The Defence is invited, if they have any further

18     idea, now having heard the examination-in-chief and knowing what will

19     follow on Wednesday, to inform the Chamber about any assessment, any

20     estimate, on the time they would need for cross-examination.  And we

21     adjourn until Wednesday, the 28th of April, quarter past 2.00, in this

22     same courtroom, II.

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.08 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day of

25                           April, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.