Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4465

 1                           Wednesday, 28 April 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

 8             Good afternoon everyone in and around the courtroom.

 9             This is case IT-03-69-T, Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and

10     Franko Simatovic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             While we're waiting for the witness to be brought in, I put on

13     the record that the interviews of the present witness with the OTP have

14     been -- the results of that have been made available to the Defence, and

15     there has been some consultation yesterday, because the Prosecution would

16     like to look at it as well, and after having consulted with the Defence,

17     you have received the relevant interview results as well, Mr. --

18             MR. GROOME:  Yes, I have, Your Honour.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We do understand now that time for

20     cross-examination -- time --

21             MR. JORDASH:  I beg your pardon, Your Honour.  Our client cannot

22     hear anything at the moment.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, then we have to take care of that.

24             Mr. Stanisic, can you now hear me in a language you understand?

25     I see you're nodding yes.

Page 4466

 1             I dealt with some practical problems over the weekend, that is

 2     the results of the interview being made available to the Defence and to

 3     the Prosecution as well, that the time estimate for cross-examination

 4     would be three to four hours.

 5                           [The witness took the stand]

 6                           WITNESS:  MANOJLO MILOVANOVIC [Resumed]

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Milovanovic.

 9             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I would like to remind you that the solemn

11     declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony is still

12     binding, that is, that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and

13     nothing but the truth.

14             I was informed that you have been so kind to do the homework over

15     the weekend and the first days after the weekend.  Thank you for that.

16     Mr. Groome asked for another 15 minutes for examination-in-chief.

17             Mr. Groome.

18             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

20             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the Prosecution would ask that the

21     Court Officer please bring to our screens document 5294.

22                           Examination by Mr. Groome: [Continued]

23        Q.   General, while we are waiting for that document to be brought to

24     our screens, can I ask you were you provided a binder containing

25     14 documents, as well as a chart to record your assessment with respect

Page 4467

 1     to the authenticity of these documents over the last few days?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Is the document that we can now see on our screens, is that the

 4     document in which you recorded your assessment with respect -- your

 5     assessment of the authenticity of these documents?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. GROOME:  Can I ask that we go to the second page or the last

 8     page.

 9        Q.   And, General, did you sign and date this document?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And is that your signature at the bottom of this chart?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution would ask

14     the Court Officer to please bring to our screens document number 5295.

15        Q.   And while that is being done, General, were you also provided a

16     binder of 40 documents to review, as well as a document to record your

17     assessment of the authenticity of these documents, again over the last

18     few days?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Is the document that we now see on our screens an image of the

21     document in which you recorded your comments with respect to the set of

22     40 documents?

23        A.   Yes, and I can see a mistake under 8.  I did not put my initials

24     there, although I should have because the document is authentic.

25        Q.   So -- just so the record is clear, from what we can see, you did

Page 4468

 1     not put your initials in either column 5 or column 6.  Where should your

 2     initials appear, which column, column 5 or column 6?

 3        A.   Yes, that's true.  In column 5.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that we go to the last page of this

 5     document.

 6        Q.   And while that is being done, did you also sign and date at the

 7     end of the chart where you recorded your opinions as to these

 8     40 documents?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. GROOME:  And if I could ask that we move out.

11        Q.   And is that your signature that we can see at the bottom of the

12     chart?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, General, just a few minutes ago, the Court Officer brought

15     to my attention and to the attention of the Defence that there also in

16     the binder that you returned appeared to be a handwritten letter in your

17     handwriting.  Is that correct, that you also provided a handwritten

18     letter in the binder when you returned it?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And my cursory -- the cursory explanation that has been provided

21     to me is that it includes some other comments that you have made with

22     respect to the documents that you were shown, and in an effort to be

23     complete, you also made notes on this separate piece of paper; is that

24     correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 4469

 1             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, the Prosecution has an application

 2     with respect to these documents, but making such an application is likely

 3     to result in a detailed discussion of how they should be treated.  In the

 4     interest of proceeding with the cross-examination and expediting

 5     General Milovanovic's evidence before the Chamber, the Prosecution simply

 6     asks at this time that the two documents be marked for identification and

 7     the detailed discussion of how they should be treated in this trial be

 8     deferred to a time later this week.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Is this about the comments and the notes or is it

10     about the lists, the charts, that have been completed by Mr. Milovanovic?

11             MR. GROOME:  My application relates to the two charts, document

12     number 5294 and 5295.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MR. GROOME:  With respect to the --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you seek them to be marked for

16     identification.

17             Madam Registrar, the first chart dealing with 14 documents and

18     the again --

19             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 5294 becomes Exhibit P396, marked for

20     identification.  And 65 ter 5295 becomes Exhibit P397, marked for

21     identification, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And both documents keep that status.  They still are

23     marked for identification.

24             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 4470

 1             MR. GROOME:  Not knowing what is in the handwritten letter, I'm

 2     unable to express a view as to what I think should ultimately happen to

 3     the document, but perhaps it would be prudent to -- also at this time, to

 4     mark that for identification.  And I'd ask that it be kept -- the

 5     original be kept in the custody of the Court Officer until the parties

 6     can discern what, if any, relevance it may have to this trial.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Has a copy already been given to the Defence?

 8             MR. GROOME:  I believe copies have been given by the

 9     Court Officer to -- to all of us.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You received that, I see, that -- the Defence is

11     nodding yes.

12             Madam Registrar, a number -- yes, Mr. --

13             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry.  May I just, quickly, take some instructions

14     from Mr. Stanisic?  There's something about the B/C/S document which is

15     of concern.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The B/C/S document being the handwritten edition

17     to --

18             MR. JORDASH:  Handwritten edition.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

21                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

22             MR. JORDASH:  With Your Honour's leave, would it be possible to

23     have a translation, the document read to us so that we can -- we English

24     speakers can understand precisely what the handwritten note says at this

25     stage?

Page 4471

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I've got no idea how long it is.

 2             MR. GROOME:  May I make a suggestion, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             MR. GROOME:  It's about a page and a half.  Perhaps during the

 5     first break I'll arrange to have someone here who can give a rough

 6     translation to all of us so that we can proceed with the --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll then wait.  Yes.  The Chamber has received a

 8     hard copy.  We're not seeking to understand it until you have had an

 9     opportunity.  I see that it is a document which is handwritten, one and a

10     half page long, and is -- the second page is dated the

11     25th of April, 2010, and from what I understand written here in

12     The Hague, and it bears at the top "Manojlo Milanovic."

13             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Milovanovic.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm sorry for mispronouncing your name.  Then

15     what to do with this document we'll wait for the parties to further

16     address the Court after the first break.

17             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution has no

18     further questions of General Milovanovic.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but we take it that --

20             Mr. Milovanovic, when you filled in those charts, you did it to

21     the best of your abilities and in full accordance with what you think is

22     the truth in this respect.  That's, of course, a bit sensitive if you're

23     talking about authenticity of documents, but you did it to the best of

24     your abilities and -- is that well understood?

25             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Yes, it is well understood, but I

Page 4472

 1     believe that I understood the task well, because the problem here is the

 2     problem of authenticity.  And what is authenticity?  In Serbian,

 3     "authentic" means the same, and since I was provided with the copies of

 4     the documents, I was supposed to use my experience and confirm that the

 5     copies are the same as their originals, and I did it in all 53 cases.  In

 6     one case I could not establish that, that was in the penultimate

 7     document, and I put my initials under 6, in column 6, standing for

 8     non-authentic.  I could not read the document, and I did not have the ERN

 9     numbers that were omitted while the document was being photocopied.

10     That's why I identified that document as not being authentic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We find this explained under column 7 where

12     you explain why you concluded or you were unable to conclude that it was

13     authentic and therefore had to conclude that, as far as you could assess,

14     that there could be no authenticity.  Thank you for that answer.

15             That's it, Mr. Groome?

16             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  No questions at this time.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Jordash, will you be the first one to

18     cross-examine Mr. Milovanovic?

19             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:

22        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Milovanovic.

23        A.   Good afternoon.

24        Q.   I represent Mr. Stanisic, so you understand who I am.

25             I want to ask you, first of all, about something you said when

Page 4473

 1     you testified last week.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  And, please, could I have on e-court P392, which

 3     should be excerpt two from -- let me shortcut this.  Could we go to the

 4     next page, please.  Yes, this is what I'm looking for.

 5        Q.   Last week you testified that you were confident that the Stanisic

 6     referred to in this exhibit was Mico Stanisic.  Do you recall that.

 7             Evidence?

 8        A.   I don't see the name here, but I remember that I said that,

 9     because there was a bit of a dilemma which Stanisic was referred to, but

10     here I can see in the text in the brackets Mico wrote the order, Bozovic

11     to form a special at the public security centre in Doboj, and that's how

12     I concluded that the Stanisic in question was Mico Stanisic, the

13     then-minister in Republika Srpska.

14        Q.   And this, it seems, was a note written about a meeting with

15     political structures in Doboj.  Do you see that heading?

16        A.   Saturday, Doboj, 6 -- 6th of February, 1993, yes.

17        Q.   And you also testified that - I think this is -- let me try to

18     paraphrase - at such meetings, the Stanisic who would be at the forefront

19     of the -- those engaged in the meeting would be Mico Stanisic.  If Jovica

20     Stanisic was referred to, Jovica would be written down alongside

21     Stanisic?

22        A.   I believe that I said so.  However, I am increasingly more

23     convinced that the person is Mico Stanisic, because we're talking about

24     Doboj and the setting up of the Special Police Unit in Doboj.

25     Jovica Stanisic never had anything to do with that.  It was only the

Page 4474

 1     minister of the interior of Republika Srpska who could have anything to

 2     do with that.

 3        Q.   Can you confirm that Mico Stanisic was the minister of the

 4     interior for Republika Srpska from March of 1992 until January of 1993?

 5     Sorry, let me start that again.  From March 1992.  That was the

 6     commencement of his post.

 7        A.   I know that Mico Stanisic was in that position in 1992 when the

 8     military was being set up, because I met with him on several occasions.

 9     How long he stayed in office, I don't know.

10        Q.   Do you -- sorry.  I interrupted you.

11        A.   I know that he was replaced by Ratko Adzic as minister of the

12     interior, but I don't know when that took place.

13        Q.   Okay.  Let me ask you about what you've just said concerning the

14     permission to set up the police -- Special Police Units in Doboj.  It was

15     only the minister of interior of Republika Srpska who could have anything

16     to do with that.  Could you clarify precisely what you mean by that?

17        A.   Well, what I meant was this:  When something is -- a unit is

18     being set up with the Ministry of the Interior, that the person in charge

19     of that would be the minister of the interior, nobody else.

20        Q.   And do you know that from your own experience or are you

21     theorising about that generally?

22        A.   It's only a hypothesis.

23        Q.   Can you confirm Mico Stanisic was in that position at the

24     beginning of 1992?  The earlier part, if I can leave it like that.

25        A.   I've already said that.  When the military or the

Page 4475

 1     Army of Republika Srpska was being set up, that was in May and June 1992,

 2     I met with Mico Stanisic on several occasions at the Main Staff.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  You also said, and perhaps this is on the same

 4     subject but I do want to ask you about it, you said on -- last week that

 5     Jovica Stanisic would not be able to write an order to be located in

 6     Doboj in any case.  Could you explain that, please?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, if you are quoting, what was said is

 8     that Jovica Stanisic would not have been able to write an order for the

 9     unit to be located in Doboj.  That's --

10             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             MR. JORDASH:  That's almost a word-for-word quote.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but the unit is -- who or what is located in

14     Doboj doesn't appear in your quote.

15             MR. JORDASH:

16        Q.   The unit I'm referring to, Mr. Milovanovic, was the Red Berets,

17     which we can see mentioned in Exhibit P392.  And with reference to that,

18     you said:

19              "Jovica Stanisic would not have been able to write an order for

20     the unit to be located in Doboj."

21             What did you mean precisely by that, please?  Why did you arrive

22     at that conclusion?

23        A.   If you are talking and if you're referring to the document that

24     is now before us on the screen, I don't remember that I ever mentioned

25     the Red Berets.  I mentioned the centre of public security.  And here

Page 4476

 1     General Mladic writes:

 2             "Mico wrote an order for Boskovic to set up a special unit with

 3     the public security centre in Doboj."

 4             I really don't remember ever having mentioned the term Red Berets

 5     in this particular context.

 6        Q.   Do you know anything about Bozovic being present in Doboj in

 7     1992?

 8        A.   No.  I learned that on Friday as I was looking at this piece of

 9     paper here.

10        Q.   I'm correct -- it's correct, isn't it, that Mico Stanisic was the

11     ultimate commander of the CJB security centre in Doboj in 1992?

12        A.   No.  Mico Stanisic was the minister of the interior of

13     Republika Srpska.

14        Q.   I beg your pardon.  Yes.

15             MR. JORDASH:  Please could Exhibit -- Rule 65 ter 4359 be brought

16     onto the e-court, please.

17        Q.   I'm going to give you a little time to read through this,

18     Mr. Milovanovic, so you just have an understanding of what it is.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that we cannot see the top line in B/C/S.  I

20     don't know whether the witness can, or does it ...

21             MR. JORDASH:  I've just been told that apparently the B/C/S

22     version does not match the English.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  It now does.

24             MR. JORDASH:  It now does.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It didn't do a minute ago, but apparently it now

Page 4477

 1     does.  That was also the reason why I wanted to see the top of the B/C/S.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Apparently this has been tendered as an exhibit

 3     already, P00383, marked for identification.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could the document please be

 5     scrolled up?  Okay.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, I do apologise.  It looks as though there's

 7     some confusion.  It's probably mine, but let me just try to clarify.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Now we are back with the English we earlier had on

 9     our screen, but now apparently with the right B/C/S corresponding --

10             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.  This is the one that should have been there.

11     Thank you.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not -- not easy for me to

13     read.  The letter's a bit too small.  Could the document please be blown

14     up a little?

15             Could the document please be scrolled up.  Could we please go

16     down in the text.

17             I've read it.

18             MR. JORDASH:

19        Q.   Did -- have you familiarised yourself with some of it,

20     Mr. Milovanovic?

21        A.   Yes, with part of the text, but now I see page 2 again.

22        Q.   Can we go to page 3 then, please.

23        A.   But I haven't read through page 2 yet.  Okay.  Stay here.  Could

24     you please scroll down.

25             Could you please scroll down some more.

Page 4478

 1        Q.   Mr. --

 2        A.   There seems to be no more.  Possibly there's a page 3.

 3        Q.   There should be more than a page 3.  Is this a document you have

 4     you've seen?  Wasn't this a document you were asked to review previously?

 5        A.   I have never seen it in my life before today.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Could I just inquire then, is there only three

 7     pages in the B/C/S?  Because it's a much longer document in the English

 8     version.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  How could the witness know if he hasn't seen it

10     before, Mr. Jordash?  You can see in e-court that it's a six-page

11     document in B/C/S.  I mean, I can find it in a second.  So, therefore, I

12     take it -- and I can -- so why ask the witness who can look at one page

13     on the screen?

14             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, I was inquiring of the Registry,

15     actually.  Sorry.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's a six-page document, and it's signed --

17     or at least it's stamped at the bottom.  I wouldn't say it's signed --

18     well, it's signed -- it has a stamp and a sign at the bottom.

19             MR. JORDASH:  Could the witness be shown the remaining pages,

20     please.  I just want to make sure he's seen everything.

21        Q.   Mr. Milovanovic, I think this is a document you have seen and

22     marked as authentic.  Does it not look familiar to you?

23        A.   Well, I may have seen it these days during the proofing, but in

24     operative use in the VRS I never saw it.

25        Q.   I'm merely asking about whether you've seen it in the last few

Page 4479

 1     days so I can ask you questions about it without waiting for you to read

 2     it all again.  Let me ask you some questions about it if I can since

 3     you've seen it before, marked it as authentic.  Presumably you marked it

 4     as authentic in part because of the contents.  Am I right or not?

 5        A.   That's correct, because of the content, because in one of those

 6     forms I wrote that I haven't read all the documents because there wasn't

 7     enough time, but I read practically all the headings and saw who wrote it

 8     and so on.

 9             We can see that this one was written by Zdravko Tolimir.

10        Q.   And who was he?

11        A.   Zdravko Tolimir was the assistant commander of the Main Staff of

12     the VRS for intelligence- and security-related matters.

13        Q.   So this is a intelligence report dated the 28th of July, 1992,

14     being sent to, as we can see, Department for OB Affairs of 1st Krajina,

15     2nd Krajina, Eastern Bosnia, Sarajevo, Romanija, and Hercegovina Corps,

16     as well as SR BH RV and PVO, president of the SR BH Presidency, SR BH

17     prime minister, SR BH Army Main Staff commander.

18             Are you familiar with this type of intelligence report from 1992?

19        A.   In principle, yes.

20        Q.   And in principle were the recipients the same as the recipients

21     marked on this particular document?  Is this where intelligence about

22     paramilitaries went to from the intelligence and security sector of the

23     VRS?

24        A.   Yes.  All the corps of the VRS are mentioned.  It mentions also

25     RV and PVO, but that's wrong.  We didn't call it RV, which means "air

Page 4480

 1     force."  And then it went to the president of the SR BH, the SR BH prime

 2     minister, and the commander of the Main Staff of the SR BH.  It was not

 3     sent to me at the time.

 4             Speaking about such documents and intelligence, I can say that I

 5     never received any until mid 1993, because Tolimir thought we are sitting

 6     next to each other, but at meetings of the Main Staff I put forward my

 7     assessments of the situation in the combat theatre, but I didn't know

 8     this information.  And then General Mladic got angry and started shouting

 9     at Tolimir, and then I started receiving such intelligence.  That was

10     around mid-1993.

11        Q.   So just remind me, if you would.  Your position from May of 1992

12     until mid-1993 was what?  What was your assignment in the VRS?

13        A.   I was Chief of Main Staff of the VRS, and, at the same time,

14     according to the establishment, the deputy commander of the Main Staff of

15     the VRS.

16        Q.   So from what you've said, from May of 1992, the establishment of

17     the -- the date of the establishment of the VRS, until mid-1993, you were

18     not receiving intelligence about the operations of paramilitary groups in

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Is that a fair summary?

20        A.   Well, we can't say that I didn't receive information.  I did

21     receive information from Tolimir and the chief of the intelligence

22     administration, Colonel Salapura, but only in direct contact, without any

23     written communication.  Simply, the chief of the intelligence

24     administration Salapura, if he had any news about the enemy, he would

25     come to see me and brief me orally.  Tolimir did the same if he had

Page 4481

 1     anything that was security related.

 2             I remember some things from this particular document.  I remember

 3     this Zuco guy --

 4        Q.   Mr. -- sorry to interrupt, Mr. Milovanovic.  I'm going to ask you

 5     about the document in a minute.  I just want to ask you about the

 6     information you were receiving.

 7             Mladic, in the middle of 1993, was perturbed, let me put it that

 8     way, that his Chief of Staff was not receiving proper information about

 9     the activities of paramilitaries in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   And as far as you were aware during this period, that

12     intelligence was going only to the named people in this report?

13        A.   Yes.  And that can be seen at the bottom of this page.  This is

14     the only correct thing compared to what I read over the weekend, I mean,

15     the 54 documents.  I said and can confirm now that both in peacetime and

16     in war time there is the obligation for intelligence and security

17     services of friendly countries in a region to co-operate, and

18     General Tolimir was duty-bound to inform the commanders of all

19     subordinate units.  Furthermore, to inform the intelligence

20     administration of the General Staff of the VJ, as a neighbouring armed

21     force.  Furthermore, the Main Staff of the Serbian Army of the Krajina,

22     which I -- which is not indicated here or I may have skipped it.  And if

23     he considers it necessary to inform the Commander-In-Chief of something

24     and the commander of the Main Staff of his own army, he had to do so.

25     All the other names that -- and I said that in relation to the document

Page 4482

 1     put forward by the Prosecutor, he would also pass on to the

 2     General Staffs of the armies of neighbouring countries.

 3        Q.   Let me try to understand that.  Are you suggesting this

 4     intelligence in 1992 went to the VJ?

 5        A.   Well, it should have been passed on to them, but I can see here

 6     that it wasn't.

 7        Q.   So is it your understanding that it was being sent to the VJ in

 8     1992?

 9        A.   Well, I can only say it should have been sent to them.  Why this

10     does -- why this isn't indicated on the document among the addressees, I

11     don't know, but not even the Main Staff of the Serbian Army of the

12     Krajina is mentioned here as one of the recipients, and it should have

13     gone there.  All the documents that I've seen in these few days, these

14     two are mentioned as recipients, and that's what I said in my additional

15     comment.

16        Q.   The documents, we'll come to some of them later, but the

17     documents that you have looked at where, for example, Jovica Stanisic is

18     copied as a member -- as the chief of the state security of Serbia, were

19     from 1993 in the main.  Could I suggest that 1992 intelligence such as

20     this was not being sent to the Republic of Serbia?  If it had been, I

21     would suggest the names would have been on this document.

22        A.   Sir, I repeat that I don't know whether documents in 1992 were

23     sent to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  I cannot tell from this

24     document.  And the documents that are reviewed these days mostly relate

25     to 1993 and 1994, and there I saw that it was indicated in each document

Page 4483

 1     that they were sent there.

 2             Mr. President, since Defence counsel insists that I explain to

 3     him something that I have already explained in my letter, I suggest that

 4     I read out the letter which the interpreters can interpret.  It is not

 5     long.  It's handwritten, one and a half page, so typed it would be less

 6     than one page.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we left if in the hands of the parties until

 8     now what to do with the document, but if you say that an answer to a

 9     question which was put to you by Mr. Jordash is found in this letter,

10     under those circumstances I would suggest that we follow this offer, and

11     we invite you then to read it.  But it's common experience that, when

12     reading, speed of speech goes up.  So if you would really keep the pace

13     low.

14             Do you have the letter in front you, or would you need to be

15     provided with a copy?  Yes.

16             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] I've just received it.  Can I

17     start reading?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please do so.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "I reviewed in detail all

20     information enclosed which Colonel Zdravko Tolimir or his deputies Beara

21     and Salapura, that is, Ljubisa Beara and Petar Salapura, sent to various

22     addresses in parts of the former SFRY.  I feel duty-bound to explain the

23     following:

24             "1.  It is common practice for friendly countries in peacetime

25     and war time to exchange intelligence.  That is done at the level of the

Page 4484

 1     intelligence services of General Staffs or Main Staffs respectively.

 2             "As far as the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia is concerned,

 3     Tolimir is duty-bound to submit information only to the intelligence

 4     administration of the General Staff of the army of the SRJ and nobody

 5     else in Yugoslavia, and the chief of that administration decides who in

 6     his country he will acquaint with that information."

 7             Okay.

 8             "And the chief of the intelligence administration of the

 9     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia decides who in his country he will

10     acquaint with this information, whether it should be the Chief of

11     General Staff, the state head, this or that government minister, or

12     anybody else.  It follows that there is no need to list other

13     institutions in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, least of all the

14     persons at -- who are heads of those institutions, including

15     Jovica Stanisic or anybody else.

16             "Secondly, it follows from this information that Tolimir, Beara,

17     and Salapura regularly mentioned the name of Jovica Stanisic,

18     General Djordje Djukic, chief of the nationality security of

19     Republika Srpska Dragan Kijac, Colonel Spiro Pereula.  Spiro Pereula is

20     Tolimir's man installed in the Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska.

21     And the names of Zoran Sokolovic, minister of the interior of Serbia, and

22     one Blagojevic, the federal minister of the interior of the Federal

23     Republic of Yugoslavia, as well as my name are mentioned.

24              "If you take a closer look, you will see that those are the

25     names of people who hold higher ranks or higher positions than Tolimir.

Page 4485

 1     So this was meant to prove that he is in direct communication with

 2     'important' persons from the region.  Never was the name of anybody from

 3     the Republic of Serb Krajina mentioned (they are not important) or from

 4     commands subordinate to ours to who information was sent.

 5              "Thirdly, because of all this, I wanted to point it out to you

 6     that in the about 160 pages of Tolimir's intelligence that is enclosed,

 7     their contents either incriminates or exculpates Mr. Jovica Stanisic.

 8     The administration of the Tribunal was only unnecessarily burdened with a

 9     large quantity of paper.

10             "The Hague, 24 April 2010, Manojlo Milovanovic."

11             THE INTERPRETER:  25 April 2010, that was.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

13             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I don't know if other people heard it,

14     but I thought that I heard at page 20, line 21, that the word "either"

15     was, in fact, "neither."  It seems to contextually make more sense, but

16     maybe Mr. Jordash could clarify with the witness.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             MR. JORDASH:

19        Q.   Mr. Milovanovic, just to clarify something that was said by you

20     and may have been recorded mistakenly, could you just repeat the line

21     which starts off with "Thirdly, because of all this ..."

22        A.    "Thirdly, because of all this, I wanted to point out to you that

23     the enclosed pages of Tolimir's intelligence, about 160 pages of it, do

24     not either incriminate or exculpate Mr. Jovica Stanisic.  The

25     administration of the Tribunal was only unnecessarily burdened with a

Page 4486

 1     large quantity of paper."

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  This, I think, clarifies the issue.  I see also the

 3     negations and in the original text we see nay, nay, and the context is

 4     also better understandable, that he says it neither does, nor, and

 5     therefore it was an unnecessary burden.  That last part is, by the way,

 6     your opinion.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. JORDASH:

 9        Q.   Let me just try to make sure I understand what you're saying in

10     this note.  Are you suggesting that the document we've been looking at

11     from Tolimir, which doesn't contain the name of officials from the

12     Republic of Serbia, would not ordinarily have been expected to contain

13     the name of officials from Serbia because that wasn't the way

14     intelligence was passed to them?

15        A.   Unfortunately, I did not understand your question.

16        Q.   I'm not surprised.  That's my question, which was a bit long.

17     Are you -- are you suggesting that it was normal protocol for

18     intelligence to be sent to those named in this document; thereafter, the

19     chief of administration would make a decision as to what was passed on to

20     other republics?

21        A.   Do you want me to answer?

22        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

23        A.   Not only was it customary, but it was prescribed.  Co-operation

24     with partnership countries should have been established at the level of

25     the services of the same ranks.  Since I'm talking about the

Page 4487

 1     Military Intelligence Service of Republika Srpska, that service had to

 2     exchange information with military service of the Federal Republic of

 3     Yugoslavia and the Republic of Serbian Krajina, or, rather, with the

 4     General Staff of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  And now there were

 5     other institutions that co-operated with each other, for example,

 6     State Security Services.

 7        Q.   Mr. -- Mr. Witness, may I just stop you there.  Is it -- is this

 8     correct:  You actually cannot testify to what intelligence was or was not

 9     being passed to the Republic of Serbia in 1992?  You can talk about what

10     was customary, but you actually do not know?

11        A.   Judging from the 54 reports that I've read these days, it is

12     clear that the intelligence service of Republika Srpska overstepped its

13     authorities.  And let me be more precise.  It overstepped the authorities

14     that were prescribed.  Instead of just communicating with the

15     intelligence service of the General Staff of Yugoslavia, it communicated

16     with all the services in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  Not in

17     Serbia but in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, for which Tolimir

18     deemed it necessary that they should communicate with.

19        Q.   I'm talking about 1992.  Did you see any reports in -- dated 1992

20     with intelligence concerning paramilitary formations?

21             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the general wasn't given any reports

22     from 1992, so I think it's a somewhat misleading question to say reports

23     from 1992 that had certain information in it.

24             MR. JORDASH:  Well, that was the point I was trying to make.

25        Q.   You didn't look at any reports from 1992, and my question was

Page 4488

 1     focused on 1992.  You cannot testify to what intelligence was being

 2     passed to the Republic of Serbia in 1992.  Is that a fair proposition?

 3        A.   Well, you are partially right.  I have told you that in 1992 I

 4     did not receive any intelligence.  I only started receiving intelligence

 5     report in mid-1993.  So I was not in a position to know who Tolimir sent

 6     it to.

 7             Second of all, I said, and I believe that made you draw an

 8     erroneous conclusion, I said that I do know certain things.  I spoke

 9     about that on Friday.  I do know certain things about that person

10     Zuco from Zvornik, and I also know something but not from this

11     intelligence but from other sources, from the reports submitted to me by

12     subordinated units about the disappearance or the theft according to the

13     information that I had at the time of anything between 2 and 11 tons of

14     silver from Sase mine.  As soon as I received that information, I

15     reported to President Karadzic who told me he -- he told me then that

16     that was not within the purview of the army, that that was not our

17     business.

18        Q.   Why were you, the Chief of Staff, not receiving written reports

19     until mid-1993 about what must have been one of the critical military

20     issues in Bosnia-Herzegovina during 1992 and early 1993?

21        A.   I did not receive it because that was not prescribed at the time.

22     It was the commander of the Main Staff who received such reports.  And

23     then at his own discretion he was supposed to brief his assistants, the

24     assistants that he himself selected.  However, this was done by

25     General Mladic because although we had -- or we shared an office during

Page 4489

 1     the war, we never stayed in the same office at the same time.  When he

 2     was there, I was on the line and vice versa.  And that's when he decided

 3     that I should collect information about the enemy through

 4     Colonel Salapura and through the commands of subordinate units.  Or

 5     according to him, and I quote:

 6             "I don't want my deputy to collect intelligence in trenches."

 7        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Let's go back to the document quickly.  The

 8     first paragraph of -- states:

 9              "Paramilitary formations and groups are an important feature of

10     the war in the former Yugoslavia.  The paramilitary formations on SR BH

11     territory have special identifying names such as Arkan's men, Seselj's

12     men, Captain Dragan's commandos, Captain Oliver's commandos, Jovic's men,

13     White Eagles, Wolves, Smoked Ribs, and the like."

14             Now, in July 1992 were you aware of these groups, you as the

15     Chief of Staff?

16        A.   On Friday I spoke about the way the General Staff treated

17     paramilitaries.  I spoke about Arkan's men.  They disappeared in May 1992

18     and --

19        Q.   Mr. Milovanovic, I want to try to get finished as quickly as

20     possible, so if you could try to address my questions directly.  Were you

21     aware of these groups in May -- sorry, in July of 1992?  Were you aware

22     of them on BiH territory?

23        A.   Well, it all depended.  I was aware of Arkan's men, but they were

24     no longer in the territory.  I heard of Seselj's men, but I never saw

25     them, nor did anybody tell me that they had come in conflict with

Page 4490

 1     Seselj's men.  Whatever arrived from the territory of Serbia, the

 2     territory of Republika Srpska, whoever arrived, they tended to introduce

 3     themselves as Seselj -- Seselj's men.  About Captain Dragan, I told you

 4     on Friday what happened to them.  As for commandos headed by

 5     Captain Oliver, I never heard of them before.  As for Carli's men, I

 6     don't think that they were an organised paramilitary formation.

 7     Carli's men were those people who opened fire from mounted mortars.

 8     Carli was the name that we gave to those weapons.  As for Jovic's men,

 9     they did not exist in the territory of Republika Srpska.  There were some

10     attempts on the part of Jovic to build them into the armed formations of

11     Republika Srpska, but we disallowed that.  White Eagles, I heard of

12     them --

13        Q.   Sorry, go ahead.

14        A.   I heard of two types of Wolves, Wolves from Vucjak headed by

15     lieutenant Milankovic, they were incorporated in the 1st Corps and they

16     came under the command of the Army of Republika Srpska.  And then there

17     were the Drina Wolves, and that was a special unit on the strength of the

18     Drina Corps.  As for Smoked Ribs, I only learned about them from

19     Tolimir's intelligence.  During the war, I was never aware of them.  I

20     never heard of them during the war.

21        Q.   Okay.  Could I turn, please, to page 5 of the English version.  I

22     want to just read you something.  In -- and it says this at

23     paragraph 3 --

24             MR. JORDASH:  If we turn to that in the B/C/S.

25        Q.   "In the area of the Serbian municipality of Skelani, a camp of

Page 4491

 1     so-called Red Berets was established headed by Nikola Pupovac, one of

 2     Captain Dragan's pupils."

 3             Did you know anything about that?

 4        A.   I heard about that between the 16th and the 21st of January.  On

 5     the 16th, the exodus of the Serbian population started in the area around

 6     Skelani.  I personally issued an order for two battalions to arrive from

 7     the 1st Krajina Corps, and that was done within the three or four days.

 8             On the 21st, I went to Skelani to see what had been done by those

 9     two battalions.  The population started returning by then.  And then I

10     heard that in the Skelani sector - and I don't know in which village

11     exactly - a group of six -- 26 Serbs who had come from across the Drina

12     from Serbia had been discovered and they introduced themselves in

13     different ways, but they mostly spoke about themselves as

14     Seselj's Chetniks.  I reported back to the commander on the same evening,

15     and he ordered Tolimir -- or, rather, Beara, the head of security, to

16     make that group disappear.  And that's all I can tell you.  I found it

17     very strange when I read about that in one of the reports that I perused

18     recently.

19        Q.   So are you making a connection between Captain Dragan's pupil

20     Nikola Pupovac and the Red Berets and Seselj's men?  I just want to

21     understand what you're saying.

22        A.   Let me put it this way:  Among people, Seselj's men was a general

23     term for everybody who came to Republika Srpska from somewhere else.

24     They referred to themselves either to disguise their identity or for some

25     other reasons.  They said that they belonged to Seselj and they were

Page 4492

 1     Seselj's Chetniks.  Everybody but Arkan's men.  All those groups that

 2     turned up.

 3        Q.   So the intelligence that -- is this correct:  The intelligence

 4     that you received in 1992 about Dragan's men, was that limited then

 5     to -- let me put it differently.  Did you know where they were from other

 6     than Serbia?  Was there any intelligence concerning why they had come?

 7        A.   You're referring specifically to Captain Dragan's men?

 8        Q.   Yes.  I'm looking at the report.  There's no suggestion that

 9     there was any intelligence as to where they came from.  Was that the

10     state of your knowledge in 1992?

11        A.   We knew, when Captain Dragan appeared in Divic near Zvornik, that

12     a few men came with him from Knin, from the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

13     He had been their commander over there.  And we also knew that he was

14     joined by several men from Republika Srpska.  And we also knew that most

15     of the men who were with him were from Serbia.  However, I told you that

16     that group obeyed me and left the Drina area sometime in mid-June 1992.

17        Q.   So they were known at that time by no other name than

18     Captain Dragan's men except that they sometimes referred to themselves as

19     Seselj's men; is that correct?

20        A.   When we are talking about Captain Dragan's men, I did not hear

21     anybody referring to them as Seselj's men.  They themselves did not call

22     themselves that.  I have told you that whenever people from somewhere

23     else appeared, the local population would be told that they were

24     Seselj's men, and that's the kind of intelligence we received from the

25     ground.  We would always hear about such men appearing as Seselj's men,

Page 4493

 1     and it really rarely proved to be true, if ever.

 2        Q.   Captain Dragan's men are described in paragraph one as

 3     Captain Dragan's commandos.  Is that how you as the Chief of Staff knew

 4     them in 1992?

 5        A.   No.  I would really be embarrassed to use the name that I called

 6     them before this Trial Chamber.

 7        Q.   Why, is it --

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry.  I note the time, Your Honour.  Could I ask

 9     one question?

10        Q.   I don't know what you're going to say, but since you offered it,

11     could you say what name you referred to them as?

12        A.   I personally called them renegade, thieving bastards.

13        Q.   And other people called them Captain Dragan's commandos; is that

14     correct?

15        A.   Well, in this text you can see the term "Captain Dragan's

16     commandos."  Tolimir is the author of the text, so you can draw your own

17     conclusion as to how the author or Tolimir called them.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, Your Honour.  If I could just finish this.

19        Q.   I know Tolimir referred to him as that.  We know what you

20     referred to them as.  Were they known generally amongst the VRS, from

21     your knowledge and experience of personnel within the VRS, as

22     Captain Dragan's commandos?  That's what I'm getting at.

23        A.   I don't know how they were referred to, but I repeat for the

24     umpteenth time, from the 23rd of June when the mobilisation of the

25     Army of Republika Srpska finished, they did not have any of the

Page 4494

 1     aforementioned groups under its command.  In other words, the

 2     Army of Republika Srpska did not contain any paramilitary formations.

 3     Some continued bearing their names, as, for example, Wolves, but they

 4     were on the strength of the Army of Republika Srpska.

 5        Q.   We'll come to that later.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 8             We'll have a break, and we will resume at ten minutes past 4.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 3.38 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, please proceed.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.  May I apply to tender that

13     document as an exhibit, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

15             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the Prosecution has no objection.  In

16     fact, I think we have tendered it and it was marked for identification

17     based on opposition from counsel.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, that's right.  Can I withdraw the

19     opposition that I expressed at that time.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Implicitly you have done so already,

21     Mr. Jordash.  And it had received a number already.  It was P383, MFI'd,

22     and is now admitted into evidence.

23             MR. JORDASH:

24        Q.   Let me just ask you quickly -- let me just ask you quickly,

25     Mr. Milovanovic, about Arkan and two particular events.  Did Arkan have a

Page 4495

 1     relationship with Rajko Dukic in or about 1994?

 2        A.   I don't know about 1994, but in or about June 1992 I know that he

 3     had contact with Arkan.

 4        Q.   Rajko Dukic was practically like Karadzic's deputy, is that

 5     right, in 1992?

 6        A.   First of all, the name is not Djukic, it is Dukic.

 7             He was the director of the Boksit mine in Milici, and he was the

 8     president of the Executive Committee of the SDS, and that would be the

 9     rank equal to the deputy president of the party.

10        Q.   And the municipality was -- was this the municipality of Milici?

11        A.   I don't understand the question.  You mean does it refer to Dukic

12     at Milici or --

13        Q.   Let me strike that question and let me ask you this:  Did Dukic

14     employ Arkan?  Did he engage him?

15        A.   I'm not sure about the date, but it must have been in June 1992

16     when Dukic came to the Main Staff and he spoke to General Mladic.  He

17     suggested to him that the Main Staff allow Dukic to employ 120

18     Arkan's Tigers to guard the mine.  General Mladic took the newspapers and

19     replied, Tell that story to my chief, because he likes rubbish.

20             And Dukic started talking that he needed 120 men, that he would

21     pay -- or, rather, the management of the mine for guarding the mine.  And

22     I said to him, Sir, we went to great ends in May and June to get rid of

23     paramilitaries, especially of Arkan, and said that was out of the

24     question.  And he started enumerating to me where we should deploy units,

25     that is, a company round the mine to enable that mine to function

Page 4496

 1     properly.

 2        Q.   Mr. -- sorry to interrupt.  Was Arkan employed on behalf of

 3     Dukic?

 4        A.   Not then.

 5        Q.   Was Dukic's request sanctioned by Karadzic?

 6        A.   No, it wasn't.

 7        Q.   Was Arkan subsequently employed by Dukic?

 8        A.   I don't know.

 9        Q.   Did --

10        A.   But I must say that after that conversation with Dukic, who

11     demanded about 26 companies of the VRS, I said to him, That's two and a

12     half brigades.  We don't have as many soldiers.  He said to me, General,

13     as you are from the Krajina, bring some people from the Krajina.

14             I refused that.  Actually, Mladic threw him out of the office.

15             In the evening, I informed the president of the republic,

16     Mr. Karadzic, of that conversation with Dukic, and Karadzic said to me,

17     Disband them or scatter them if they should turn up again.  But they

18     didn't.

19        Q.   Did Karadzic order Arkan to come on his behalf in September of

20     1995 to BiH?

21        A.   That is still a mystery to me.

22        Q.   What is a mystery to you?  You know, don't you, that Arkan was

23     engaged by Karadzic to take over Kljucic in September of 1995?  You've

24     dealt with this in a previous interview; we can turn to it if you want.

25     Or you can cast your mind back and see if you remember to assist the

Page 4497

 1     Court.

 2        A.   What am I supposed to remember?

 3        Q.   Well, do you recall Arkan being engaged by Karadzic to take over

 4     Kljucic on the 16th of September, 1995?  Let me remind you a bit further.

 5     You and Mladic subsequently banished Arkan, having disagreed with

 6     Karadzic's decision.

 7        A.   When I used the word "mystery," that's a lone word in the Serbian

 8     language and means something that I don't know, something unknown to me.

 9     That is why I'm saying that it is still a mystery to me how Arkan turned

10     up in the Republika Srpska.  What you call Kljucic is the town of Kljuc

11     which the VRS lost on that 16th of September, and I don't know that Arkan

12     asked for permission to take Kljuc.

13        Q.   Well, let me just ask one more.  And if you can't remember, we

14     can turn to the interview.  Karadzic brought Arkan to Kljuc, and you and

15     Mladic made an agreement that Arkan should be banished, notwithstanding

16     Karadzic's authorisation.  Try and assist us if you can.

17        A.   I will try to assist you.  Arkan appeared without the knowledge

18     of the VRS, that is, without the knowledge of the Main Staff.  He

19     appeared at the theatre of war in the RS in September 1995.

20        Q.   I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'm short of time.  Did Karadzic --

21     do you remember Karadzic having a part to play in this or not?  If you

22     don't remember, we'll turn to the interview.  Do you remember?

23        A.   Karadzic had a role to play, but I don't know exactly what.  I

24     don't know if Karadzic ordered Arkan to come or whether he had invited

25     him to come to the RS.  Karadzic always denied that.  Whereas Arkan, at a

Page 4498

 1     meeting, in Karadzic's presence said to me that he had come, following

 2     the orders of President Karadzic.  And he even used the phrase "our

 3     supreme commander" to refer to him.  In Karadzic's presence, I demanded

 4     Arkan to produce that order, because we in the Main Staff doubted the

 5     existence of that order.  We had never seen it.  He said he had left the

 6     order in the Bosna Hotel.  I told him to go there and get it, but later

 7     he changed his mind, and my conclusion was that there was no such order.

 8             I asked Karadzic in the presence of Arkan, Mr. Koljevic,

 9     Ms. Plavsic, Mr. Krajisnik, General Talic, and General Kelecevic, I said,

10     Mr. President, did you ask or order Arkan to come?  And Karadzic did not

11     reply.

12        Q.   Karadzic didn't reply and he didn't deny that he had; correct?

13        A.   Correct.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have please --

15        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Witness.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have, please, on e-court P386, MFI'd.  And

17     could we -- this is --

18        Q.   Can you see the front page there, Mr. Milovanovic?  Can you

19     confirm that you've had the opportunity, I think, during the preparation

20     sessions, to look at this document?

21        A.   Yes, I did have the opportunity, and I looked at it.  But I

22     didn't have time to read it, nor did I want to because I was one of the

23     authors of this document.

24        Q.   Well let me take you to page 49.  I just want to ask you some

25     very quick questions and then we can move on.

Page 4499

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Forty-nine we should start with and the quoting

 2     of ... the same page for the B/C/S, I think.  No, it's not.

 3        Q.   Maybe we can shortcut it in this way:  Could I read you a

 4     paragraph and see if you recognise the paragraph, Mr. Witness?

 5             MR. JORDASH:  For Your Honours, it's page 49 of the English

 6     version, and it's the first full paragraph.

 7        Q.   "The unfavourable political and security situation immediately

 8     before the war, and the break-up of the intelligence and security system,

 9     which resulted from the stratification along ethnic lines of, especially,

10     the commanding staff in the intelligence and security organs, had a

11     rather adverse effect on the combat morale of the core fighting units

12     from which the army of RS was formed."

13             Do you recall that paragraph in this combat readiness report

14     reporting on 1992, Mr. Milovanovic?

15        A.   I cannot see that paragraph in front of me, and it's unrealistic

16     to expect me to remember a paragraph after 18 years.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  The page in B/C/S seems to be in e-court page 44 out

18     of 142, which starts with 2.2, manifestations of morale.

19             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.  I'm sorry, I should have found the B/C/S.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And if -- so, therefore, it -- most likely it's even

21     43, which is the last portion before paragraph 2.2.

22             MR. JORDASH:  I think it is.

23        Q.   Can you see the paragraph?  If you could read it to yourself,

24     Mr. Milovanovic, beginning with "The unfavourable political and security

25     situation ..."

Page 4500

 1        A.   I can see page 43, whereas the President of the Trial Chamber

 2     mentioned page 44.  I cannot see what you're asking me on page 43.  Now I

 3     see it.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 5        A.   Could we please scroll down.

 6             I have read the paragraph.

 7        Q.   Do you agree that the intelligence and security system in 1992 of

 8     the VRS was way below competent, which affected, as the paragraph

 9     suggests, the combat morale of the core fighting unit?

10        A.   One of the authors of this text is the section of morale, legal,

11     and religious affairs of the Main Staff.  This is not an assessment of

12     the intelligence and security service of the VRS, but this is, rather, an

13     assessment of the morale, the undeveloped or poor system that existed at

14     the beginning of the war, that is, in May, June, et cetera.  When the VRS

15     was established, was being established, the intelligence and the security

16     service was being established parallelly.  And General Gvero, who was in

17     charge of these issues, mentions one of the reasons why combat morale was

18     below the required level when the VRS was only being incepted.

19             MR. JORDASH:  Okay.  Could we turn, please, to 83 in the English

20     version, which is 74 in the B/C/S.

21        Q.   Could you -- is this section familiar to you, Mr. Milovanovic?

22        A.   This is a chapter I know.  One of the authors of this chapter is

23     probably Tolimir.

24        Q.   Do you agree with the assessment at the bottom of -- well, the

25     English version, bottom of 83, the paragraph I'm interested in reads:

Page 4501

 1              "Due to financial constraints and the inability to provide any

 2     safety guarantees whatsoever to non-Serb operational sources in our

 3     territory, we did not manage to preserve the existing or recruit new

 4     high-quality sources in enemy territory.  We therefore focused on sources

 5     motivated by patriotism (mostly Serbs and friends) who, being known as

 6     such in a hostile environment, had no access to significant intelligence

 7     data."

 8             Do you agree with that?  Could you elaborate on it?

 9        A.   I agree with this assessment, because in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

10     there was above all an inter-ethnic war, and then it was also a civil war

11     and a religious war, et cetera.  So we were, at least in the beginning,

12     unable to develop sources on the enemy side.  So we couldn't really

13     develop secret agents or whatever the technical term is.

14             You mentioned the term "Serbia," but this isn't about Serbia.  It

15     is about Serbs and their friends.

16             I fully agree with the contents of this paragraph, because these

17     are always the ailnesses when the -- when intelligence services are first

18     developed.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. JORDASH:  Can we turn to page 85 of the English version,

21     please, which is page 76 of the B/C/S.

22        Q.   And I'm interested in the paragraph which is one, two, three,

23     four, five, six paragraphs down on page 85 of the English version and

24     starts with:

25             "Co-operation and exchange of data with related services in the

Page 4502

 1     territory of RS is generally satisfactory, as well as with the Main Staff

 2     of the SVRSK.  Of late, co-operation has been -- also been intensified

 3     with the intelligence and security organs of the Army of Yugoslavia,

 4     while with the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia it is

 5     still at an unsatisfactory level."

 6             Do you see that, Mr. Milovanovic?

 7        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 8        Q.   Was this an accurate assessment of the intelligence sharing with

 9     the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia in 1992?

10        A.   I cannot either confirm or deny because I wasn't familiar with

11     the details of who we were co-operating with or not co-operating,

12     because, after all, this wasn't anything that I had to take care of in

13     the Main Staff.  This wasn't my business.

14        Q.   Okay.  Well, we'll leave it there.

15             MR. JORDASH:  May I tender this as an exhibit, Your Honour?

16             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the Prosecution has no objection.  If

17     the Chamber will recall, this is one of the documents that we tendered

18     last week, and the Chamber took the view that since it was of such a

19     large size that we should meet and discuss with Defence whether we could

20     agree on certain excerpts.  So I was prepared to do that.  But on

21     principle, I have no objection to the document.

22             MR. JORDASH:  I'd be content to, if Your Honours prefer, just to

23     have the pages I referred to in.  I will undoubtedly over the next few

24     months refer to it some more.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps it -- it should also include -- in the

Page 4503

 1     beginning we see that there is a kind of an index or at least -- so that

 2     we know what the whole of the document is about and then

 3     if [indiscernible].

 4             Now, Mr. Groome, could you assist me.  Had we already assigned an

 5     MFI number to it, or was it just open?

 6             MR. GROOME:  I believe there is a MFI number to it, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Madam Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  It's P386 [Microphone not activated].

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  P386 will then keep the status of MFI, and the

10     parties are invited to -- to reduce the size of what should be admitted

11     from this document, and then the Chamber is aware that that could be

12     enlarged at later stages of the proceedings.

13             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

16             MR. JORDASH:  May I have P00258 on e-court, please.  It should be

17     a map which is number 35 in the book provided by the Prosecution.

18        Q.   I'm moving, as that comes onto the screen, Mr. Milovanovic, to

19     your comments and your meeting with Mr. Stanisic on the

20     23rd of January, 1993 at Tara that you referred to last week.  And last

21     week you expressed surprise or certainly in the unit transcript video you

22     referred to Mr. Stanisic's knowledge as somewhat surprising.  Do you

23     recall that?

24        A.   Yes, I remember.  I said that I was full of admiration for the

25     man's good knowledge of Eastern Bosnia.

Page 4504

 1        Q.   I'm trying to have them --

 2             MR. JORDASH:  It's coming.  258, yes.

 3        Q.   I want to deal with this meeting in a wider context, and the

 4     context I want to deal with it in is the attacks by Naser Oric.  Is --

 5     the meeting at Tara was about how to defend the Serbian border from

 6     Naser Oric's men; is that correct?

 7        A.   That is not correct.  The meeting was held about the principal

 8     topic of the ways and means of assisting the Republic of Serbian Krajina,

 9     which they had been attacked by the Croats who had violated the

10     Vance-Owen Plan.  Martic demanded assistance from me, but I was unable to

11     provide it.  He wanted air force support.  And I forwarded the request to

12     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, who was duty-bound to do it because

13     they were a guarantor of the Vance-Owen Plan, but Karadzic and Mladic,

14     who were in London, I believe, answered -- or, rather, agreed that I

15     should have a meeting with General Panic from the Army of the Republic of

16     Serbian Krajina to find a way to help them.

17             We were supposed to meet on the 23rd of January at Tara, but on

18     the same day the hydro power plant of Visegrad was attacked, which was a

19     joint hydro power plant.  That became more of a problem for me than the

20     Republic of Serbian Krajina.

21             While I was waiting for General Panic with my team, I learned

22     that in a village around Visegrad, I believe it's Mokronozi, but I'm not

23     sure, from the morning until the afternoon hours, that is, or about 2.00,

24     some 2- or 300 Serb civilians had been killed.  So that was the

25     situation.

Page 4505

 1             I was explaining that to Panic on the map, but we were unable to

 2     reach any agreement without Panic, but he was -- he couldn't make any

 3     decisions without his supreme commander, Dobrica Cosic, who was abroad.

 4             While I was explaining the situation in Eastern Bosnia to Panic,

 5     Jovica Stanisic assisted me, who knew that area very well it turned out.

 6     Jovica and I didn't even discuss amongst ourselves.  I, at most,

 7     confirmed some things that Jovica said, and I merely -- I was merely

 8     saying that he knew about those things better than I did.

 9        Q.   Did Naser Oric's men attack Serbian -- Bosnian Serb territory in

10     May of 1992?  Could you explain what happened?

11        A.   Naser Oric's attacks against Serbian villages and hamlets around

12     Srebrenica started before the armed conflicts officially started between

13     Muslims and Serbs.  He organised something that the Muslims called

14     Patriotic League or the Red Berets that preceded the official

15     establishment of the BiH Army.  I'm not sure of the exact date, although

16     these days I have been reading a book called "Serbian Slaughter Execution

17     Sites."  In any case --

18        Q.   Mr. Milovanovic, I think I may have misspoken and said

19     May of 1993, but I meant to say May of 1992.  Oric's men went on the

20     rampage in early 1992 and attacked 56 villages in the Drina region around

21     Srebrenica; is that correct?

22        A.   I believe that you are quoting me and the things that I said

23     yesterday.  I said 156 villages and hamlets.  I know that 91 villages and

24     hamlets were completely destroyed in the process, and I know that in that

25     part of the Drina area there were some 9.000 Serbs.  Up to February 1993,

Page 4506

 1     from March 1992 to February 1993, a total of 3.200 Serbs were killed in

 2     the area.  The rest were expelled.  As a result of that, in central Drina

 3     region between Zvornik and Zepa only 9 per cent of the Serbs remained.

 4     The villages were empty, plundered, destroyed.

 5        Q.   Could you see the map on the screen in front of you?

 6        A.   Yes, I can see it, although it is not very legible.  The letters

 7     are very small.  I can see Visegrad, however.  I can see Srebrenica

 8     clearly.

 9        Q.   Mr. Milovanovic, is it possible --

10             MR. JORDASH:  Could Mr. Milovanovic be given a pen to mark on the

11     map where these attacks were taking place along the border.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have a pen.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Wait for a second, Mr. Milovanovic.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Can we zoom in a little so Mr. Milovanovic can see

15     it properly and then can mark on the map where these attacks took place,

16     please.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Milovanovic, if you could give instructions as

18     to what area we need which would allow you to mark the attacks.  Is this

19     the right portion or ...

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, from this position --

21     or, rather, at this moment I cannot start listing the villages for you.

22     I could if somebody first gave me their names.  I couldn't say yes or no.

23     It really isn't easy to start listing all the 156 villages and hamlets.

24     I really wouldn't know where to start.

25             In any case, I'm talking about the villages around Srebrenica,

Page 4507

 1     south of Srebrenica.  For example, Podravno is something that rings a

 2     bell.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps you if could indicate the area, if it is one

 4     area.  Then you could just put a circle around that area once a pen has

 5     been given to you.  Is that possible on this map, or is the area too

 6     small or too large?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  We will not get a larger

 8     number of villages if the map is blown up.  Let's start with Srebrenica,

 9     for example, and then south of Srebrenica on the very border is Podravno,

10     or Podravanje as we used to call it.  That's one of the villages that got

11     destroyed.  And then if we go northward towards Srebrenica, there is the

12     village of Zeleni Jadar.  And then, to the west, Bucje, Dile,

13     Rupovo Brdo, Suceska --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I see -- Mr. Jordash, may I take it that you would

15     be happy to have at least some of these villages and not all 156.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Certainly.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, I see several of the villages which

18     Mr. Milovanovic is mentioning on that map.

19             So could we invite you that whenever you see a village on the map

20     that you encircle it so that we can see it as well.  I think you started

21     with Podravno.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you would perhaps read the names when you

24     are ...

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let's start all over again.

Page 4508

 1     Podravno, Bucje, Suceska, Rupovo Brdo, Dile, Zeleni Jadar, Osmace,

 2     Brezani, Poznanovici, Mocevici, Obadi.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, I leave it in your hands.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milici.

 5             MR. JORDASH:

 6        Q.   Mr. Milovanovic, thank you.  Could I maybe shortcut things and

 7     ask you to confirm this:  The attacks took place along the border from

 8     Zvornik to Visegrad.  Zvornik in the north, which we cannot see on the

 9     map quite, just above --

10             MR. JORDASH:  Perhaps we can move the map down a little so we

11     can see --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No, we can't.

13             MR. JORDASH:  We can't.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We can't move and zoom in or out any more once --

15             MR. JORDASH:

16        Q.   Would you agree with that, Mr. Milovanovic, that the attacks took

17     place along the border from approximately Zvornik down to Visegrad which

18     is south of Srebrenica?

19        A.   No.  From Zvornik down to a hill called Zlovrh or it's part of

20     Susica Mountain.  It is down to there that the criminals of Naser Oric

21     plundered.  They were not an organised army.  They were just armed

22     locals.  They attacked Serb villages from Muslim villages.  They

23     destroyed it and torched it.  South of Zlovrh in the direction of

24     Visegrad, there were others who operated.  I don't know what their

25     formations were called, but, in any case, they were Muslims from the

Page 4509

 1     territory of Zepa and some other towns down there whose names I can't

 2     remember.  In any case, they were a different group.

 3        Q.   Did Naser Oric have any foreign Muslims in his midst at that

 4     time?  Was there any Mujahedin?

 5        A.   I didn't see them.  I never received intelligence in 1992 about

 6     the existence of any Mujahedin.  Subsequently I learned that they

 7     appeared in the second half of 1993.  I saw a footage depicting a

 8     decapitated man called Blagojevic with a Mujahedin.  I don't know how

 9     many there were in this part of Bosnia.

10        Q.   Okay.  We'll come to that later.  But, nonetheless, Serb

11     civilians were being brutalised by thousands of Oric's men at that time

12     along this border that we're looking at?

13        A.   Yes, that's correct.  I am trying hard to locate the village of

14     Kravice.  I can't see it.  In the course of a single day, 61 persons were

15     killed there, predominantly civilians, predominantly women and elderly

16     people.

17        Q.   Did Naser Oric also attack Skelani in early January of 1993?

18        A.   From the 16th to the 21st of January, 1993, I believe that those

19     men belonged to Naser.  I've already spoken about those incidents.  Not

20     only do I think, I am actually sure that they were Naser's men.

21        Q.   Can we please have another copy of this map on the screen so we

22     can --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  But then this one should first be saved and assigned

24     a number, then, I take it.

25             MR. JORDASH:  Actually, sorry, Your Honour, I can see Skelani

Page 4510

 1     there on the map.  That's what I'm interested in.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Skelani is close, by Bajina Basta.

 3             MR. JORDASH:

 4        Q.   Skelani, Mr. Witness --

 5             MR. JORDASH:  I'll apply to tender in a moment, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Skelani is a border town with a bridge over to Banja Basta in

 7     Serbian territory -- Serbian territory; is that correct?

 8        A.   Skelani is in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and across

 9     the Drina is Bajina Basta, immediately across the Drina.

10        Q.   Thank you.  And following that attack, there were incursions into

11     Bajina Basta; is that correct?

12        A.   I am not aware of any incursions by people, but I know that

13     Bajina Basta was plundered from the left bank of the Drina because people

14     were fleeing across the only bridge between Skelani and Bajina Basta.

15     And there were shots fired after the population fleeing into Serbia, and

16     I believe some of the shells or infantry ammunition hit buildings in

17     Bajina Basta as well.  And I know that there were protests from Serbia

18     and that was -- that it was reported on the news that Bajina Basta had

19     come under attack.

20        Q.   And this was a significant event because it was perhaps one of

21     the first times that the border had been violated by Naser Oric's troops;

22     is that correct?

23        A.   I don't know whether that was the first instance, but I know that

24     it was not an only one.  Mali Zvornik also came under mortar fire from

25     the left bank of the Drina onto the right bank of the Drina, but I don't

Page 4511

 1     know when that was.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Could I have, please, on the -- could I tender this

 3     map as an exhibit, please.

 4             MR. GROOME:  No objection, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Marked -- map marked by the witness,

 6     Madam Registrar, would be.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit D39, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  D39 is admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  I beg your pardon.  Sorry, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We admitted into evidence what you wanted us to

11     admit.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

13        Q.   You've -- you mentioned the Vance-Owen Plan a moment ago.  Was

14     there a provision within that plan for Yugoslavia to assist the Krajina?

15        A.   It is not the Vance-Owen Plan.  The Vance-Owen Plan was

16     applicable to Bosnia.  We have to talk about the Vance Plan, the one that

17     was issued in May and June 1992, according to which fighting was stopped

18     in the Republic of Croatia.  UNPA or pink zones were established for the

19     Serbs, and they were placed under the protection of -- of the United

20     Nations.  Croats were not allowed to attack those pink zones, and Serbs

21     in the pink zones were not allowed to launched attacks on Croats.

22             The arms of the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina was

23     placed under the key and lock, and a copy of that key was held by the

24     United Nations or UNPROFOR.

25        Q.   Was there a provision within that Vance Plan for Yugoslavia to

Page 4512

 1     assist the Krajina?

 2        A.   A guarantor of the Vance Plan for the Republic of Serbian Krajina

 3     was the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  I believe that it was provided

 4     for.  If the Croats attacked one of those UNPROFOR protected areas, they

 5     could use arms to put the situation right.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Could I have, please, on the screen V000-2061, but

 8     it's the transcript I'm looking for, not the video.  1561, please.

 9        Q.   I just want, if you would, Mr. Milovanovic, to read through this

10     transcript and see if you recognise the event and you recognise hearing

11     this item on the TV.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I get the impression that we are not on the same

13     page in English and B/C/S, or are we?

14             MR. JORDASH:  I don't think we are, because the timings are

15     different at the top left.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, there's music in the B/C/S, whereas there seems

17     to be no music in the English.

18             Try to find the right --

19             MR. JORDASH:  I think if we move past the music to the line "This

20     morning the delegation ..."

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but now in B/C/S, because if you -- let me see.

22             MR. JORDASH:

23        Q.   Mr. Witness, are you reading this?  If you are, then just

24     indicate when you want the transcript to move.

25        A.   I'm reading.  Yes, I'm reading.  I'm reading.

Page 4513

 1             You can move the text now, please.

 2        Q.   I think the problem --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Whatever the witness is reading, it seems that we do

 4     not have the corresponding portions of English and B/C/S on our screen.

 5     Did you want to start at 1:1:48?  Is that where you wanted to start,

 6     Mr. --

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, please.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then let's try to find that in B/C/S as well.

 9     Otherwise, the witness reads for nothing.

10             Let's see where we are.  What about page 35 in B/C/S,

11     Mr. Jordash?  Would that be a good suggestion?

12             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.  Thank you.

13        Q.   Perhaps if you could read for 6 pages, Mr. Milovanovic.

14        A.   I'm reading.

15             Can you move the text now, please.

16             MR. JORDASH:  And the English one, please.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm done reading.

18             MR. JORDASH:  And the English one.  Could we go to page 2 of the

19     English one, please.

20        Q.   I'm particularly interested, Mr. Milovanovic, at timings 1:41:04,

21     where it -- and I'll read it:

22             "The Serbian Prime Minister Nikola Sainovic and Interior Minister

23     Zoran Sokolovic visited Bajina Basta today holding talks on the security

24     situation in this border belt area.  On the north Dalmatian battle-field

25     of the offensive, the Croatian armed forces against Krajina positions

Page 4514

 1     continues.  In Budapest, the commander of NATO forces in positions in

 2     Europe, John Shaljkashvilj told journalists that the crisis in Yugoslavia

 3     can only be solved politically and not militarily."

 4        A.   I have none of that on the screen, whatever you have just read

 5     out.

 6        Q.   I'm going to shortcut this.  I do apologise.  Something has gone

 7     wrong with our administration.  Let me ask you this:  Were you aware that

 8     there were talks and a visit by Sainovic and Sokolovic to the

 9     Bajina Basta region as a result of the fragile security of the border

10     following Naser Oric's attacks?

11        A.   To be honest, I don't remember if I knew of it at the time.

12     However, a few days ago during the proofing session or maybe here in the

13     courtroom, I watched a documentary depicting Sainovic's and Sokolovic's

14     stay in Bajina Basta.  They inspected a unit there, and that was a police

15     unit.  Now I remember; that was during my proofing session with the

16     Prosecutor.  And among all those people I saw military policemen with a

17     white belt.  Somebody asked me about that policeman, how come that he was

18     there.  I suppose that he was from the Uzice Corps providing security for

19     somebody or something.

20             So I can't say that I am not aware of that event, but I really

21     can't tell you whether I remembered -- remember it from the period of a

22     war, when it actually happened.  And it happened sometime after the

23     21st of January, once the Skelani crisis, if I may call it so, was over.

24        Q.   And from your experience, if Sokolovic, as the minister of the

25     interior of the Republic of Serbia, had visited Bajina Basta to deal with

Page 4515

 1     the security on the border, would you be surprised or would it be

 2     perfectly normal for the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia to be

 3     concerned with incursions into the border?

 4        A.   I'm sure that he was worried, but how come that only the minister

 5     of the interior came and not the minister of defence?  I don't know what

 6     the situation is like in Serbia today, but it seems to me that at that

 7     time the border was controlled by the police of the Federal Republic of

 8     Yugoslavia rather than the army.

 9             A few days ago we spoke about who manned the border crossing,

10     that there were police and customs.  So it is normal that the minister of

11     the interior came there, because he's in charge of the police.

12        Q.   And the same question in terms of the state security of Serbia.

13     Would it surprise you in such a situation that the state security of

14     Serbia would be interested in incursions into the border?

15        A.   The state security of Serbia is responsible for the entire

16     territory of Serbia, for the safety of the citizens respective of where

17     they are, along the border or further inland.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

20             Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

22        Q.   Were you aware, Mr. Milovanovic, that as a consequence of the

23     attacks by Oric a decision was made by the Serbian leadership to mount

24     Operation Drina?

25        A.   I don't know whose operation that was, and what do you -- and

Page 4516

 1     what do you mean by Serbian leadership?  The leadership of the

 2     Republic of Serbia or something else?

 3        Q.   Yes.  That's what I -- that's what I meant.  Let me simplify the

 4     question.  Had you -- have you heard of Operation Drina arising from

 5     attacks by Naser Oric?

 6        A.   No.  I haven't heard of the Drina operation, but I heard of the

 7     Podrinje '93 operation, which we prepared.  Then there was Pesnica

 8     operation, which translates as "fist."  Then there is a Krivaja

 9     operation, but I can't recall Drina operation.  We had an

10     Operational Group that was called Drina, which was in the area of

11     Kalinovik, Cajnice, Visegrad.  I know that the Federal Republic of

12     Yugoslavia had an Operational Group called Drina, but it was on the other

13     side.  They were part of the Uzice Corps.  As far as I know, the

14     commander of that Operational Group was General Sipcic, but that

15     Operational Group called Drina did not -- wasn't active on the left bank

16     but on the right bank of the Drina.  That was a precautionary measure to

17     prevent the repetition of these attacks from Bosnia.

18        Q.   Okay.  You spoke last week about being surprised about

19     Jovica Stanisic's knowledge of Klotijevac, which is close to Skelani.

20     Could you explain why you were surprised, given what was happening along

21     that border and the attacks on that border by Naser Oric?  What was the

22     basis for your amazement, using your words?

23        A.   I've already explained that.  I was amazed because I had never

24     heard of that village until that time.  And upon returning to the

25     Main Staff, I had great difficulty finding it on the map, but I did

Page 4517

 1     eventually.  So a person who wasn't from Bosnia-Herzegovina and knew the

 2     geography of Bosnia-Herzegovina to such minute details, it was hardly

 3     surprising that I was amazed.

 4        Q.   Were you aware that consequently as a result of the attacks by

 5     Oric the public security of the Republic of Serbia began to be trained at

 6     Tara, trained to protect the border more efficiently?  Were you aware of

 7     that?

 8        A.   I don't know who was trained.

 9        Q.   Were you aware of training in Tara at that time of men who were

10     subsequently engaged in protecting the border?

11        A.   I don't know.

12        Q.   Well, I'll leave that, then, for now.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Can I just take instructions, please.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Jordash.

15                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

16             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, I do not know what your instructions

18     are at this moment, but we're close to the time we would have a break.

19     And I have to deal with a few procedural matters.  So to the extent that

20     fits into your instructions, that -- I don't know what --

21             MR. JORDASH:  That fits.  That's a natural break, Your Honour.

22     Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then since the first part should be dealt with

24     in private session -- Mr. Milovanovic, we'll have a break and we have to

25     deal with some practical matters that are unrelated to you, so I would

Page 4518

 1     allow you already to follow the usher and leave the courtroom.  We'll

 2     resume in approximately half an hour.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And could we move into private session.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4519

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             MR. GROOME:  There are no requests.  The Prosecution does not

 9     intend to request them.  But given some of the unusual circumstances, we

10     wanted to proceed in case the Chamber felt differently.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Madam --

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

14             I put on the record that, in relation to Witness JF-049, that the

15     Defence was granted an extension of the deadline to respond until the

16     27th of April at 7.00 p.m., that is, yesterday.

17             Meanwhile, the Prosecution has requested permission to reply and

18     has replied, which under the present circumstances seems to be very

19     practical although should be the exception rather than the rule, but

20     under the present circumstances the Chamber does not oppose to this

21     practice being applied under those circumstances.  The reason being that

22     the witness is in The Hague and that the Defence asked for a postponement

23     of two months to start the testimony of this witness.  We now know that

24     the Prosecution disagrees with that.

25             I don't think that we have received a response by the Stanisic --

Page 4520

 1     Simatovic Defence.  Did we receive a response?

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  We joined

 3     Mr. Groome's motion, because that was the agreement, that Mr. Groome

 4     should make that motion, and we -- sorry, not Mr. Groome.  Mr. Knoops,

 5     actually, and we joined.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So that's a common position taken by the two

 7     Defence teams.

 8             Now, in the response, there was objection against admission of a

 9     new 92 ter statement.  But there was another matter in the original

10     motion which was that leave be granted to amend the 65 ter exhibit list

11     by adding six exhibits attached.  Is there any -- there was no response

12     to adding those to the 65 ter list, as no issue was raised in that

13     respect.

14             MR. JORDASH:  We don't take a point on that, Your Honour, thank

15     you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't take a point on that.

17             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The same here, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, adding documents to the 65 ter list is

19     not yet admission, Mr. Groome, but in that respect, the request is

20     granted.

21             We'll -- I'll further discussion with the other Judges the

22     request for a postponement of two months to start the

23     examination-in-chief of Witness JF-049.

24             Mr. Knoops.

25             MR. KNOOPS:  Well, Your Honour, just an observation.  The request

Page 4521

 1     for postponement was a secondary request.  The primary request was to

 2     exclude the new statement.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think I earlier said that there was an

 4     objection against admission of a new 92 ter statement, which was the

 5     primary relief sought, and subsidiarily that a delay of two months would

 6     be granted.

 7             One of the matters that I would like to inquire with the Defence:

 8     Is there anything in this new 92 ter statement which could not have been

 9     elicited viva voce from the witness to say that it was more or less in

10     the context of the 65 ter summary of the witness, although giving --

11     that's for certain -- giving quite minimal details?  Could that have been

12     elicited from the witness as staying within the boundaries of the

13     65 ter -- 65 ter summary?

14             MR. KNOOPS:  Your Honour, an observation:  On behalf of the

15     Stanisic Defence, in addition to the motion filed, we observed that there

16     was several new topics raised by the witness such as the paragraphs 40,

17     42, where he details the purported command structure of the JATD, which

18     was not included in the summary.  The same as the alleged command

19     structure with Arkan units, paragraph 39, 46, of his supplementary

20     statement.  Paragraph 47 detailing also the position of Legija.  And

21     paragraph 65 where he goes into the alleged money stream of the JATD

22     through allegedly offshore company.  I think these are just examples of

23     the many topics which were not included in the summary, and I think it's

24     not obvious that these topics were to be elicited during the

25     examination-in-chief, because that would go outside the boundaries of

Page 4522

 1     the -- the summary.

 2             And, by the way, it's also admission of Witness 049 himself, in

 3     paragraph 2 of his supplementary statement, where he indirectly admits

 4     that he's providing far more information than mentioned in his 2003

 5     statement.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  He's giving far more -- certainly far more

 7     details.  That especially names have been ...

 8             We'll consider the matter.

 9             Before we continue --

10             Yes, Mr. Groome.  Would you like to stay anything in response to

11     what Mr. Knoops just --

12             MR. GROOME:  Not on this point, Your Honour, but I do have

13     another point that I would like to raise out of the witness's presence

14     before he returns.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  For this witness?

16             MR. GROOME:  For this particular witness.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, I had on my mind to first --

18             Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

19             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

20     support everything that Mr. Knoops said.  He mentioned paragraph 65,

21     offshore companies and the funding of the JATD that is directly linked to

22     my client, as well as paragraph 66, which contains a serious

23     incrimination under our law, and all these are new allegations that were

24     not included in the previous statement.  We must verify that in detail

25     and review it, but that is all along the lines of what Mr. Knoops had --

Page 4523

 1     has already said and what can be found in the motions.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I was about to ask Mr. Jordash how much time

 3     he would still need for cross-examination of the present witness.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  If at all possible, I'd like another hour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Which brings you -- yes, approximately at the upper

 6     end of your estimate, and that would be the end of today's session.

 7             Mr. Bakrac, who will -- how much -- or, Mr. Petrovic, how much

 8     time you would need?

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, according to our

10     current estimate, we will need up to three hours.  We'll try hard to be

11     briefer, but this is what we can say now.  Of course, we have to hear

12     what our learned friend Mr. Jordash will say until he finishes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, I think we received information from

14     Mr. Jordash, his original estimate.  When did we -- did the Chamber

15     receive your estimate, Mr. Petrovic?  Did you send it by e-mail, or did

16     you -- I think we invited you to give an estimate, to tell us how much

17     time you would approximately need.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I believe I stated that orally,

19     Your Honours, and that I said two and a half hours then.  I can check

20     during the break and give you more reliable information, but I think at

21     this moment that I gave you an oral statement to that effect toward the

22     end of the previous session.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll just have a -- one second, please.

24             What I see, Mr. Petrovic, is on last Friday's transcript that at

25     the very end that I said:

Page 4524

 1             "The Defence is invited, if they have any further idea now having

 2     heard the examination-in-chief and knowing what will follow on Wednesday,

 3     to inform the Chamber about any assessment, any estimate, on the time

 4     they would need for cross-examination," and we then adjourned.

 5             So I don't remember that we have received any response to that

 6     invitation.  Whether there has been an earlier assessment, I do not know.

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] It seems to me, Your Honours, that

 8     it was earlier, but now I can't remember either.  I believe I spoke about

 9     that, so with your leave I will check and try to find it during this

10     break.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because we have -- of course, that was an

12     estimate asked knowing, then, exactly what the examination-in-chief

13     had -- had been.  Now we have another perhaps little problem that for

14     92 ter witnesses the Chamber always has been -- well, I wouldn't use the

15     word "generous," but at least not too strict in time because that's part

16     of the 92 ter statement.

17             Now, apparently the two Defence teams want for a witness who gave

18     his testimony mainly viva voce, you would, nevertheless, almost ask --

19     coming close to the double of the time the Prosecution took, which is --

20     has there been any conversation between the two Defence teams on how to

21     deal with this viva voce witness?

22             MR. JORDASH:  Well, hasn't -- well, there has been discussion,

23     and we discussed which subjects we were going to cover, and I think we've

24     tried to avoid duplication.

25             Could I also, though, put this before the Chamber, that there

Page 4525

 1     is -- by agreeing -- by the Defence agreeing to having Milovanovic look

 2     at documents outside of the courtroom and thereby shorten the time the

 3     Prosecution took in the courtroom, we, in a sense, set ourselves up to

 4     have less time to cross-examine.  So --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At the same time, this was not a matter of

 6     substance.  This was -- I didn't hear any questions in cross-examination

 7     about the authenticity of documents, and that seems to be the only part

 8     of -- the only exercise that was requested from him out of court.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Well, the Prosecution took the witness outside of

10     court through a huge number of documents relating to the intelligence

11     that Mr. Stanisic was receiving.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MR. JORDASH:  I spent an hour dealing with that point as a

14     consequence of the Prosecution putting in documents without discussing

15     them in court with the point being powerfully, or at least on the face of

16     it, powerfully made and having to be dealt with in cross-examination.

17     That was the difficulty.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  At the same time -- yes.  Let's -- let's not --

19     we'll further think about the matter, and we'll have a break.  And with

20     the indulgence of Mr. Stanisic, I'd like to start at five minutes past

21     6.00 and then at least to see whether we could finish, if not earlier,

22     and start the cross-examination by the Simatovic Defence, at least to

23     finish today Mr. Jordash.

24             We'll --

25             Yes, Mr. Groome.

Page 4526

 1             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I will try to be brief, but I think it

 2     is important that I raise this point with -- with the Chamber.  It's in

 3     relation to 90(H).  The Defence on several occasions has suggested to

 4     other witnesses that at least some of the crimes charged in the

 5     indictment against Mr. Stanisic and Simatovic were in fact prepared and

 6     perpetrated by members of the Army of the Republika Srpska.  I would

 7     refer the Chamber to transcript 3799, line 20, as an example of such.  It

 8     was taken in closed session, so I will not comment further now.  Please

 9     also see the examination of JF-005 at transcript 2897 to 2901 or JF-10 at

10     transcript 3799 to 3801.

11             Given that the Chief of the Main Staff of that army is now here

12     in court and is being questioned by the Defence and we are now to move

13     into the last session of cross-examination by the Stanisic Defence, it is

14     the Prosecution's position that 90(H)(ii) obliges the Defence to put to

15     General Milovanovic those crimes described in the indictment which they

16     allege was perpetrated by members of the Army of Republika Srpska and not

17     through the participation of Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Simatovic as alleged by

18     the Prosecution, if that is, in fact, their case.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It is about a witness contradicting the case

20     of the examining party, isn't it, in cross-examination?

21             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Jordash, to the extent the witness

23     contradicts your case, you should put that case to the witness if you

24     cross-examine him under Rule 90(H) and not just covering, not just

25     challenging the evidence he has given on the questioning by the party

Page 4527

 1     that called him.

 2             Mr. Groome set out the rule.  I can't say that at this moment I

 3     have a clear view on whether at this moment any obligation arises under

 4     Rule 90(H), although Mr. Groome thought at this moment that he should

 5     bring this to your attention.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  My response to that would be twofold.  Firstly, it

 7     would have been more practical if the Prosecution had given notice of

 8     this application.  This is the first we've heard of it.  And so I'm

 9     thinking off the top of my head.  But my preliminary response to that

10     would be that, as far as I understand it, the Rule 90(H) does not mandate

11     that I have to put my case to any -- every witness who might somehow be

12     able to say something about it.  This is --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, no.  That's not -- I think -- perhaps you

14     take the break.  It's my understanding of Rule (H) to say that if you

15     examine a witness not challenging the examination by the party that

16     called him but since the witness is able to give support to your case,

17     that to the extent he contradicts your case, his evidence is

18     contradicting your case, that you put at least clearly to the witness

19     what your case is.  But if it's contradicting your --

20             MR. JORDASH:  So far --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If it --

22             MR. JORDASH:  So --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  That's, of course, now the issue, whether the

24     witness contradicted your case.  Let's have, all, a look closer again at

25     Rule 90(H).  I didn't even read it again, but that's what my recollection

Page 4528

 1     tells me, Mr. Groome.  And perhaps if you could briefly explain to

 2     Mr. Jordash during the break where you would expect him to do what

 3     exactly so that -- because he apparently is not --

 4             MR. GROOME:  I'll explain my point further, Your Honours, during

 5     the break.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We will very a break, and we'll resume at ten

 7     minutes past 6.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 5.44 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 6.15 p.m.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Just one sentence.  The

14     Simatovic Defence apologises.  We spoke with each other, and we were

15     convinced that we also informed the Trial Chamber, but we didn't and I

16     apologise.  And it is our estimate that we will need the time just as I

17     told you before the break.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for that observation, Mr. Petrovic.

19             Mr. Jordash, please proceed.

20             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, may I just say, as far as the

21     obligations arises, we see them under 90(H), we shall put our case.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That's -- you say you'll abide by the rules, and

23     that's what we expect everyone to do.  Please proceed.

24             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

25             Could I have on e-court, please, 65 ter 577.  This is slightly

Page 4529

 1     out of turn, because I will return to the previous topic, but I want to

 2     deal with this first.

 3        Q.   Would you please have a look at this exhibit, Mr. Milovanovic.

 4     Is this document or the events it purports to describe familiar to you?

 5        A.   I don't know anything about this.  I don't remember ever having

 6     spoken to Tomislav Kovac about the arrest of deserters.  I did speak to

 7     Arkan.  I suppose that that's the commander of the Tigers.  Yes.  I can

 8     see now Zeljko Raznjatovic.  However, we did not discuss this particular

 9     matter.  As I already told you on Friday, we discussed the matter of him

10     being chased away from the territory of the Republika Srpska by myself

11     and General Mladic.  I don't remember ever having spoken to anybody about

12     the arrest of deserters.  And the date here, as I can see, is --

13        Q.   I'm sorry, the date here is?

14        A.   The date is the 11th of October, 1995, and a month before that

15     Arkan was chased away from our territory.

16        Q.   Let me just ask you this then:  Did you have -- let me strike

17     that.

18             Was there a problem with deserters from the front in the

19     territory of the Prijedor CJB at this time or thereabouts?

20        A.   There was a problem with the -- there was no problem with the

21     deserters from the Republika Srpska Army.  Those were final operations,

22     and the combatants did not desert.  But we did have problems with the

23     combatants of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, which practically

24     disappeared in August 1995, and nobody organised the withdrawal of those

25     men.

Page 4530

 1        Q.   I've got 35 minutes left, so I'm going to have to cut you off,

 2     and I do apologise for being rude.

 3        A.   [In English] Okay.  Okay.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  May I apply to tender this exhibit, please.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

 6             Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D40, Your Honours.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Oh, I beg your pardon.  It's already an

 9     exhibit, D28.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  D28, if it's that already, then we vacate D40.  Is

11     it with the same translation, because it seems that the name of this

12     witness, which in the original is Milovanovic, seems to be abbreviated to

13     Milanovic in my translation on my screen now.

14             MR. JORDASH:  May I check that and inform the Court later?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please do so.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

17        Q.   Now, I want to return quickly and move quickly, Mr. Milovanovic,

18     to the subject we were dealing with before.  You talked about a meeting

19     which involved Stanisic, Badza, Panic, and Mladic at the Hotel Omorika on

20     the 23rd of January, 1993.  Can you confirm that Stanisic and Badza had

21     arrived from Bajina Basta and from Bajina Basta had come to Tara?  Do you

22     know that?

23        A.   [Interpretation] Firstly, General Mladic was not in attendance at

24     that meeting.  He was in Geneva.

25             Secondly, I don't know how come Mr. Stanisic was at Tara in

Page 4531

 1     Omorika Hotel.  I don't know whether he arrived with Panic by helicopter

 2     or in another way, and I really don't know where he came from.  I don't

 3     have a clue.

 4        Q.   Were you aware that Sokolovic, the minister, had been present

 5     earlier with Stanisic and Badza in Bajina Basta?

 6        A.   I didn't know that.  I actually saw Sokolovic only once at a

 7     meeting in December, on the 13 of December, 1993, in Belgrade, and that's

 8     the only time I saw him.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  When you heard Badza make the comment, "I arrived

10     here with my boss," Stanisic was sitting very close to him, wasn't he?

11        A.   There were four of us at -- sitting at a small table.  I believe

12     that we were in the lobby of the Omorika Hotel, and since there were four

13     of us, two of us had to sit next to each other.  I don't know where Badza

14     was sitting in relation to Mr. Panisic [as interpreted].

15        Q.   They were within feet of each other, weren't they?  "Yes" or "No"

16     will do, I think.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And when Badza said, "I arrived here with my boss," in no way did

19     he gesture towards Stanisic, did he?  Which you might have expected, I

20     would suggest, if he was referring to Stanisic.

21        A.   Sir, I was asked the same thing on Friday.  After 17 years, it's

22     very difficult to remember people's gestures or facial expressions.

23             As far as I can remember, he did not point in Stanisic's

24     direction, but I really don't know whether that is relevant at this

25     moment, whether he pointed at him or not.  He said, "I arrived with my

Page 4532

 1     boss," and that was enough for me.  I didn't even know who his boss was.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Were you aware that Badza at that point was the

 3     deputy minister of the interior of the Republic of Serbia, a position, we

 4     suggest, which was higher than Mr. Stanisic's?

 5        A.   I didn't know that at the time.  I only learnt that subsequently,

 6     much later, that Badza was the deputy minister of the interior of the

 7     Republic of Serbia.  On that very day, I didn't know that.

 8        Q.   Sorry, just to be clear, you learnt that he was the deputy

 9     minister of the interior in January 1993, and you learnt that information

10     later; is that what you're saying?  I want to establish when it was that

11     you -- I mean -- let me rephrase that.

12             How long after did you find out that Badza was the deputy

13     minister?

14        A.   I don't know when.  Perhaps even on that very evening when I

15     arrived at the Main Staff, when I described Jovica Stanisic for them I

16     didn't know who he was.  Let me not repeat how I described

17     Jovica Stanisic.  And then either Tolimir or Beara told me, "Well, that

18     was Jovica Stanisic, the head of the state security of Serbia."  And then

19     when I --

20        Q.   Sorry.  Can I just --

21             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I would ask that the witness be allowed

22     to finish that answer.

23             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry.

24        Q.   Please do, Mr. Witness.

25        A.   And then on that very evening I learned that Badza was in charge

Page 4533

 1     of special units of the Serb police.

 2        Q.   And the special units of the Republika Srpska Ministry of

 3     Interior fell under the public security, didn't they?

 4        A.   No.  As far as I can remember, we had two Special Police

 5     brigades, and they were under the authority of the Ministry of the

 6     Interior, but not as bodies of public security.  But I don't even know

 7     what Special Police Units are used for.  I know what we use them for in

 8     war time, but in peacetime I don't know what their purpose is.

 9        Q.   Fair enough.  I don't wish to ask you about that.

10             But I do want to ask you about one thing, and I don't want to

11     embarrass anyone, but you thought at that meeting on the 23rd of January,

12     1993, that Stanisic was a waiter, didn't you?

13        A.   Yes.  I beg Stanisic's pardon, but that's what I thought.  He was

14     well dressed, he was very polite, he was well mannered, he was

15     well-groomed.  I thought he was a waiter.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Let me now move on.  Could you explain, if you can

17     remember, what Operation Udar was that we talked about last week?

18        A.   Operation Udar was an operation undertaken by our army which

19     concerned the battle against Naser Oric and placing under the Serb

20     control of the area that I showed on the map earlier today.

21        Q.   Are you able to confirm that Jovica Stanisic had no role in that

22     operation other than to provide intelligence assessments?

23        A.   I never saw Jovica Stanisic during that operation.  I don't even

24     remember that I heard anything about him or in relation to him during

25     that operation.

Page 4534

 1        Q.   I mean, it's a long time ago, but your best recollection is that

 2     his name didn't come up during the discussions?

 3        A.   No, it did not.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             Now, I want to move on to the last subject I think I'm going to

 6     deal with, which is operation -- actually, it's the second to last

 7     subject, Operation Pauk.

 8             Are you able to just give the Trial Chamber a short, short

 9     summary on the background, as you understood it, to Operation Pauk, the

10     military and humanitarian background to Operation Pauk?  Start with the

11     military, please.

12        A.   I can't say anything about the humanitarian part of that because

13     I don't know.  As far as the military part is concerned, I know that that

14     was a joint operation by the Serbian Army of Krajina -- or, rather, the

15     Republic of Serbian Krajina and the forces under the command of

16     Fikret Abdic.  They joined forces in order to liquidate or to defeat the

17     5th Corps of the so-called Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  And I know

18     that the person in command was General Mile Novakovic, who had previously

19     been removed from the position as commander of the Main Staff of the

20     Army of Serbian Krajina.  He was too young to be pensioned off;

21     therefore, he was appointed the advisor for national security to

22     President Martic.

23             When the Operation Pauk was launched, and it was launched around

24     the time when I launched a counter-attack in the direction of Bihac with

25     the forces of the Army of Republika Srpska, that was in November, that

Page 4535

 1     was the time when I first heard about the future operation.  It was a

 2     future operation at the time, on the 8th of November, 1994.

 3        Q.   Let me stop you there.  Let's just deal with what was happening

 4     before the future operation, before Operation Pauk.  Was there an

 5     involvement of the VRS in the Muslim conflict?

 6        A.   Before Operation Pauk?

 7        Q.   Well, you've just spoken about a future operation, but you talked

 8     about a counter-attack in the direction of Bihac before that future

 9     operation.  Could you explain the counter-operation -- the

10     counter-attack?  I beg your pardon.

11        A.   Yes, I can.  Shall I start?

12        Q.   Yes, please.

13        A.   Okay.  Here we go.  On the 19th, the 20th, and the

14     21st of August, 1994, the 5th Corps of the so-called Army of Bosnia and

15     Herzegovina defeated the forces of the -- of national defence of the

16     Autonomous Province of West Bosnia, i.e., Fikret Abdic.  Abdic had about

17     10- to 12.000 combatants who were all defeated.  That was an internal

18     inter-Muslim conflict.  It was not an ethnic or a religious conflict.  It

19     was an internal conflict or typical civil war.  And after that --

20        Q.   Can I just pause you there.  As a consequence of Fikret Abdic's

21     army being defeated, what happened -- were there any refugees?

22        A.   As far as I know, and as far as I read in the intelligence, some

23     72.000 people who were supporters of Fikret Abdic were exiled from that

24     area and enclosed in two camps, one in Batnoge in the Bihac region, and

25     the other one was somewhere in the north in the territory of Croatia,

Page 4536

 1     either south of Cicak or south of Karlovac.  I'm not sure.

 2             Fikret's autonomous province thus ceased to exist.  The new

 3     commander of the 5th Corps, Atif Dudakovic, was encouraged by that

 4     success, and he launched an attack against Republika Srpska in the

 5     territory stretching from Krupa on the River Una upstream to Bihac and

 6     from Bihac again upstream to Kula and Vakuf.

 7             Over the seven days of combat, from the 23rd of October to the

 8     30th of October, he managed to occupy some 250 square kilometres of the

 9     territory of Republika Srpska.  In practical terms, he occupied Mount

10     Grmec and all the villages at the foot of Mount Grmec.

11        Q.   Sorry.  Could I stop you there a moment.  Is it correct that

12     Alija Izetbegovic quenched Fikret Abdic's rebellion and as a consequence

13     imprisoned 70.000 Muslims in two camps?  These were 70.000 civilians in

14     the main in two camps.

15        A.   What are you asking me?  You're asking me if something is

16     correct?  You mentioned Alija Izetbegovic.  You mentioned the camps.  Are

17     you asking me whether it is true that Alija Izetbegovic issued that order

18     or what?

19        Q.   I'm asking you whether Alija Izetbegovic imprisoned 70.000

20     civilians in two camps, having defeated Fikret Abdic.

21        A.   No, it wasn't Alija Izetbegovic who did that.  It was

22     General Atif Dudakovic who did that.  And it was Alija Izetbegovic who

23     issued an order to him to quench the rebellion in blood because he

24     considered Fikret Abdic a rebel.

25        Q.   The man you've just mentioned, Atif Dudakovic, was the commander

Page 4537

 1     of the 5th Corps acting under Izetbegovic's direction; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And you yourself were sufficiently concerned about the

 4     5th Corps's treatment of civilians that you suggested to Mladic that you

 5     should file charges against him for crimes against civilians; is that

 6     correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, can I just ask you to return to your narrative.  I'm sorry

 9     to interrupt.

10        A.   Okay.  Let me finish that first.  That proposal was turned down

11     with an explanation along the lines, We should not get involved in their

12     business, in their showdown.  But the real reason was the fact that the

13     Republika Srpska had not recognised The Hague Tribunal at the moment when

14     it was set up pursuant to Resolution 817.  So if we were to sue Dudakovic

15     for war crimes, that would have implied that we recognised the Tribunal.

16             And now let me go back to the narrative.

17             When Dudakovic did what he did --

18        Q.   Sorry to interrupt.  Just remember what you're saying is being

19     translated, so just remember to pause.  Go ahead.  Sorry.

20        A.   [In English] Okay.  [Interpretation] When Atif Dudakovic and his

21     corps did what they did, what ensued was a breakdown in our

22     2nd Krajina Corps.  That corps, from the moment of its establishment up

23     to then, had not been involved in any major combat.  What they were

24     involved in was, rather, a trench war which lasted for two and a half

25     years up to then.  And that corps was simply entrenched on the right bank

Page 4538

 1     of the Una and waited there.

 2             I suppose that by that time both the command cadre and the troops

 3     had become very relaxed, and that's how Dudakovic managed to do what he

 4     did in the space of only seven days.

 5             The Supreme Command of Republika Srpska appointed me and ordered

 6     me to go to Mount Grmec and see what was going on there.  Since we all

 7     knew what was going on, I asked from the supreme commander to allow me to

 8     do something, since they were sending me there.  The implication was that

 9     I should try and return the lost territory.

10        Q.   Sorry to interrupt.  What -- had the 5th Corps taken 250 square

11     kilometres of Serbian territory?

12        A.   Yes.  The 5th Muslim Corps of the so-called Army of the Republic

13     of Bosnia-Herzegovina commanded by Atif Dudakovic.

14        Q.   Okay.  Go ahead.  Sorry to interrupt again.

15        A.   My requests to the supreme commander were about the following:

16     First, until the time when I get to Grmec, declare the state of war at

17     least in that area for me to be able to deal with the deserters from the

18     2nd Krajina Corps.  Before that, the corps was about 14.500 strong.  And

19     I only found some 6500 organised combatants.

20        Q.   Did the --

21        A.   That was done when I arrived at Grmec.  The state of war was in

22     effect in the area of responsibility of the 2nd Corps.  I employed the

23     military school centre as an operational reserve of the Main Staff and

24     introduced them into combat on the 30th of October.

25        Q.   What was the objective of the combat from the perspective of the

Page 4539

 1     VRS?

 2        A.   You mean the objective of the counter-strike.

 3        Q.   Yes.

 4        A.   The objective was to take the lost territory again, to take

 5     possession of it.

 6        Q.   The military objective; is that correct?

 7        A.   The military objective or the objective of the operation.  Later,

 8     I termed it "Stit 94," Shield 94.

 9        Q.   What about Suckin [phoen]?  Was it a successful military

10     operation?

11        A.   It was successful.  We were able to return the lost territory

12     within 57 days.

13        Q.   And at what point in time was that?  When did it succeed?

14        A.   I launched the counter-strike on the 3rd of November, and it was

15     completed in 57 days.

16        Q.   November of which year?

17        A.   1994.

18        Q.   And what happened after that?  Was there a further operation?

19        A.   After that, as far as the VRS is concerned, with the assistance

20     of Jimmy Carter, the former US president, a four-month truce began

21     between us and the so-called Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and we --

22     both sides started going about our own business on -- in our respective

23     territories.  But we don't seem to be getting to Operation Pauk.  I

24     started, but you interrupted me.

25             On the 8th of November, 1994 --

Page 4540

 1        Q.   Please continue.

 2        A.   I was invited by Milan Martic, the president of the Republic of

 3     Serbian Krajina, and I must say that he cheated me.  He asked me to come

 4     to Bosanski Petrovac so that he could talk to me, and I said that it was

 5     difficult for me to get there in a vehicle because I would have to come

 6     over Mount Grmec and that would be a long detour.  And I couldn't fly

 7     there by helicopter because there was a flight ban pursuant to

 8     Resolution 816 of the UN Security Council.  He said, I'll send you a

 9     white helicopter.  Which was probably given to him by UNPROFOR to use.

10             I agreed, but as the helicopter was a different model than the

11     ones that we were using, so I took a look at it.

12        Q.   Sorry, could I cut you short.  Martic tricked you into attending,

13     is that right, attending a meeting?

14        A.   Yes.  He tricked me because the pilot didn't take me to Petrovac.

15     He took me to Plitvice instead -- or, to be more precise, to the Slunj

16     range where there was some kind of forward command post of his supreme

17     command.

18        Q.   Forward command post for what?

19        A.   Of the Supreme Command of the armed forces of the

20     Republic of Serbian Krajina.

21        Q.   Please, I'm looking at the clock, Mr. Witness, and I would really

22     like if you could explain to the Chamber what Operation Pauk was designed

23     to do.  What was the military objectives behind Operation Pauk?

24        A.   The objective of Operation Pauk, as I understood it to be on that

25     8th of November, was that Fikret Abdic should have his comeback in the

Page 4541

 1     Bihac region.

 2             The second objective was the destruction of the 5th Corps so that

 3     Fikret Abdic could establish control over the entire Cazin area, the

 4     Cazin Krajina.

 5        Q.   And was part of that objective to allow refugees who'd - excuse

 6     me - who'd gathered in the Kordun region to return home to the Bihac

 7     region?

 8        A.   The refugees had already been returned pursuant to a decision of

 9     the UNPROFOR.

10        Q.   Was Operation Pauk successful?

11        A.   I apologise, but you're not letting me say what I want to in

12     order to avoid these follow-up questions.

13        Q.   Mr. Milovanovic, you've got seven minutes.  I'd been happy if

14     you'd explain as much relevant detail as you can of the military

15     Operation Pauk, please.  I'll try not to interrupt.

16        A.   All right.  Well, in that room, I found 11 officers with their

17     boss, Fikret Abdic.  There was also the supreme commander of the armed

18     forces of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, Mr. Martic, and of the other

19     people I knew, I also saw the commander of the Serbian Army of the

20     Krajina, General Celeketic.  I saw Jovica Stanisic, but he meant nothing

21     to me then.  I don't know what they had been discussing before.

22             When I entered the room, I don't even remember welcoming or

23     saying hello to anyone.  I immediately spoke to Martic, criticising me

24     why he had tricked me.

25             The commander of the Serb army, Mr. Celeketic, then explained to

Page 4542

 1     me why I had been brought there.  The Serb army of the Krajina wanted to

 2     resuscitate Fikret Abdic's army, and for that purpose I was supposed to

 3     give them 6.000 barrels, and Celeketic would give them 5.000, and that I

 4     was supposed to launch an offensive toward Bihac with my forces.  I

 5     replied that I was not authorised by my Supreme Command or the commander

 6     of the Main Staff to negotiate with Martic's command at all, and

 7     especially not with Fikret Abdic.  I didn't even say hello to

 8     Fikret Abdic on that occasion.  I said that I wouldn't give them any

 9     weapons, because I had said as much to Karadzic on the

10     23rd of October, 1993, the day after he had signed the agreement on

11     permanent peace with Fikret Abdic.  And he wanted the army to give

12     weapons to Fikret Abdic, and I said okay, but only what the government of

13     the RS had provided to the RS, which means, in other words, nothing.

14             As for my offensive toward Bihac, I said that it was in progress

15     and that I had come about halfway, as far as the Una.  Spasovo had

16     already been taken; the old name of that place was Kulen Vakuf.  We were

17     able to defend Krupa on the Una, so it was possible for me to advance

18     towards Bihac from Krupa and turn Kulen Vakuf into tongs, which is the

19     dream of any general.  That was the strategy.  But I couldn't promise

20     them any other co-ordinated action because I had no authority.  I asked

21     Martic to give orders for the helicopter to take me back, and that's what

22     happened.

23             After that, Operation Pauk followed.  I know that the Serbs from

24     the Republic of Serbian Krajina were advancing along the axis of

25     Trzaska Rastela-Cazin.  That was a long axis.  And Fikret Abdic had

Page 4543

 1     received the assignment to re-establish his lost authority, his

 2     government.  And the activities continued in the following year, and I

 3     believe it went on until the end of the war.  The 5th Corps was not

 4     defeated.  Fikret Abdic fell through once again, and those were the --

 5     that was the outcome of Operation Pauk.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  From what you've said, can you confirm that this

 7     operation had nothing to do with forcible transfer of civilians?  Its

 8     objectives were purely military, regaining territory?

 9        A.   I believe that there was no violence against civilians.  Only

10     Dudakovic misused the civilians.  He brought population from the

11     surrounding villages into Bihac, but he did that while I was attacking

12     him.  So there were 100.000 -- 180.000 people in Bihac.  I don't know how

13     large it was before the war.  He turned Bihac into a military target

14     because that's where his forces were resting, but he was actually using

15     civilians as a human shield because we couldn't shell Bihac because of

16     them.

17        Q.   And you didn't shell Bihac because of that; is that correct?

18        A.   The VRS has never shelled Bihac.  That was an order that we

19     received from the Supreme Command, that we mustn't use larger calibre

20     weapons than 12.7 millimetres to target Bihac.  And in every order of

21     mine, there is the sentence, "I forbid the use of larger calibre weapons

22     than 12.7 millimetres to attack Bihac."

23             MR. JORDASH:  Can I ask two more questions, Your Honour, then I'm

24     finished.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not my time, primarily, that you're stealing,

Page 4544

 1     but from all those who are assisting us.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  I'll be extremely quick.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And I'll be blamed for it.  Two short questions.

 4             MR. JORDASH:

 5        Q.   When you met Stanisic, Jovica Stanisic, he meant nothing to you,

 6     and you didn't know what role he was playing in the Pauk operation.  Is

 7     that fair?

 8        A.   Between my first encounter with Jovica Stanisic and the launch of

 9     Operation Pauk, much time elapsed, almost three years.  So I hope that

10     Mr. Stanisic will not mind me saying that during that period he meant

11     nothing at all to me.

12        Q.   And when you met him, when you were being requested to be the

13     commander of Pauk, you didn't know what role, if any, he was playing in

14     Pauk; is that correct?

15        A.   I didn't know that he had any role at all in that operation.  I

16     thought he had been sent from Belgrade to tell me what he told me.  We

17     spoke about that already.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you very much.  No further questions.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jordash.

20             Before we adjourn, I already instruct you, Mr. Milovanovic, that

21     you should not speak with anyone about your testimony or communicate in

22     any other way about testimony already given or still to be given, and

23     we'd like to see you back tomorrow at quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon.

24             Madam Usher will now escort you out of the courtroom so that I

25     have one more second to deal with another matter.

Page 4545

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I get some approximate

 2     information as to the duration of my stay here?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We will try to finish your testimony tomorrow.

 4     That's what, really, we want to do.  Now, as far as travelling back,

 5     whether a flight can be found for you in time, that may cause a problem.

 6     As you are aware, European air traffic is quite a bit disturbed and we

 7     are still suffering.  So we try to finish your testimony tomorrow, and

 8     I'll urge the parties that it should be done.  But I'm not in charge of

 9     the travel arrangements.  What I do know is that the Victims and

10     Witnesses Section always try to get people home again as soon as they

11     can, but I can't give you any guarantees at this moment.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.  Thank you, and I

13     apologise.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'd like to make a few observations in

16     relation to the next witness.  Comparing the new 92 ter statements with

17     the old ones and with the 65 ter summary, we find that sometimes it's

18     just explaining, giving further details, but very much more of the same.

19     Sometimes, however, matters appear to be quite new.

20             Mr. Groome, correct me when I'm wrong.  I had not prepared for

21     that witness for today, but, for example, the financing from Cyprus

22     restaurants is not something that rang a bell to me.  That's -- paragraph

23     65 seems to be entirely knew to me or -- is that correct, or have I

24     overlooked something?

25             MR. GROOME:  No, you haven't, Your Honour.  That's something --

Page 4546

 1     mentioned to the witness.  The Prosecution will not rely on it and may

 2     not even ask about, Your Honour, if the Chamber --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but the Defence has to prepare for it if you

 4     want it to be in evidence, isn't it?  Well, some areas also seem to be

 5     very easy to verify, sometimes could even be in the direct knowledge of

 6     the accused so that they could instruct counsel; whereas for other areas

 7     it might be -- well, quite burdensome to explore.  Sometimes it's also a

 8     mixture.  If we're talking about licence plates, it could well be that I

 9     have some knowledge about licence plates in my environment, but, of

10     course, you may want to verify that in further detail.  So sometimes it

11     is a mixture of easy and perhaps cumbersome.  Sometimes the information

12     given is quite trivial, whereas other information seems to have a higher

13     level of -- of relevance.

14             Now, the Chamber has not made up its mind yet, but, for example,

15     if you say, "I'm not going to rely on the Cyprus restaurants," why not

16     then redact it?  So for the -- for the Defence to know that they don't

17     have to pay attention to it and have not to further explore the names of

18     those restaurants, whether they were owned, whether the money came from

19     there, whether the sources - it's all hearsay - whether they're reliable

20     or not.  So that's one option.

21             Another option would be to gain a bit of additional time, and

22     let's say to start on a Wednesday rather than on Monday.  That's an

23     option which gives at least some additional time to -- to prepare.  Of

24     course, there's another option for the Prosecution to postpone, but that

25     requires then that you'd have witnesses available either on Monday or on

Page 4547

 1     Wednesday.

 2             We're trying to consider all this.  It seems as the Prosecution

 3     may oversimplify matters at this moment, whereas the Defence here may

 4     overdramatise matters.  The Chamber at this moment certainly is not at a

 5     point that they would decide not to admit.  The Chamber is certainly not

 6     granting two more months to prepare, and we'll think it over, perhaps

 7     further discuss it tomorrow, and invite, meanwhile, the parties, whether

 8     by redacting, by agreeing on what's really very relevant and what is

 9     rather trivial -- I mean, if we are talking dramatically about - what was

10     is? - 28 pages -- well, part of those 28 pages are taken by -- I

11     recognise this as a per diem list, et cetera.  That's, of course, not as

12     dramatic new information that the witness recognises these as per diem

13     lists and then says, "I see these in these names which --" so, therefore,

14     I would urge the parties to see whether they could come to any

15     conclusion.  Of course, otherwise the Chamber will decide.

16             You know what is on our mind at this moment.  You also know that

17     there seems to be a tendency of overdramatising and oversimplifying.  If

18     you get that out of the way, if you would come with a solution which

19     would fit the parties, the Chamber will seriously consider to follow

20     that.  The approaches adopted until now have not yet convinced the

21     Chamber that we could either choose the first, the primary option, or the

22     second one.

23             Mr. Groome.

24             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, could I also ask the Court to consider

25     that - Mr. Weber was scheduled to do this -- to lead this evidence and

Page 4548

 1     finds himself in somewhat unusual personal circumstances - that the

 2     Chamber also consider the option of allowing the Prosecution to lead as

 3     much evidence as possible and then with a view towards, if the Chamber

 4     wishes, to grant some time for cross -- additional time to prepare for

 5     cross-examination for new information that we simply bifurcate the

 6     examination of the witness.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll consider that, but let's put matters

 8     simple.  Some matters are better to be foreseen well in advance, as

 9     others are.  Now, to in any way jeopardise the position of the Defence

10     where perhaps for quite a number of months the personal circumstances of

11     Mr. Weber could have been foreseen is not something which is first on our

12     mind.  Yes?

13             We adjourn.  I thank all those who have, again, assisted us.  And

14     we'll resume tomorrow, the 29th of April, quarter past 2.00 in this same

15     courtroom, II.

16                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.10 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 29th day

18                           of April, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.