Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4634

 1                           Monday, 3 May 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

 8             Good afternoon everyone in and around the courtroom.

 9             This is the case IT-03-69-T.  The Prosecutor versus

10     Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             The next witness to be called by the Prosecution would be JF-032.

13     Protective measures in place:  pseudonym, face distortion, voice

14     distortion.

15             MR. FARR:  That's correct, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That's correct.

17             MR. FARR:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And may I take it that the parties will keep a -- be

19     very attentive in seeking private or closed session whenever the

20     questions are such that they would entail a risk of identifying the

21     witness.

22             Then just before the witness arrives into court, an additional

23     day to sit in the week of the 17th of May, the Chamber suggests that we

24     have -- are already scheduled for the 17th and 18th, that we would sit

25     the 19th as the third day that week.  For the week of the 24th, Monday is

Page 4635

 1     a UN holiday, we are scheduled for Wednesday and Thursday, the Chamber

 2     suggests that we would additionally sit on Tuesday the 25th.  Unless

 3     there are any major problems with that, we'll further try to get all the

 4     assistance we need for those days to sit.

 5             The witness can be brought into the courtroom.  I take it that

 6     everything is done to make the protective measures effective.

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8             MR. FARR:  Your Honours, perhaps the blinds could be drawn.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             Who is going to take the witness?

11             MR. FARR:  I'll be examining him today, Your Honour.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             Good afternoon, Witness JF-032.  That is how we'll call you

14     because protective measures are in place.  We will not use your name, no

15     one will see your own face, and no one outside of this courtroom will

16     hear your real voice.  But the content of your testimony is public.

17     Before you give evidence, the rules require that you make a solemn

18     declaration of which the text will now be handed out to you by

19     Madam Usher, and I would like to invite you to make that solemn

20     declaration.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23                           WITNESS:  JF-032

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Witness 32.  Please be seated.

Page 4636

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You will now be examined Mr. Farr.  Mr. Farr is

 3     counsel for the Prosecution.

 4             Please proceed, Mr. Farr.

 5             MR. FARR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6                           Examination by Mr. Farr:

 7        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.  Can you hear me well?

 8             MR. FARR:  I didn't receive any translation.  I don't know if

 9     anyone else did.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't even hear an answer.

11             Did you hear the question put to you by Mr. Farr?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not hear the question.

13             MR. FARR:  I'll repeat it.

14        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.  Can you hear me well?

15        A.   Good afternoon.  Now I can.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. FARR:  Could we please have 65 ter number 5292 on the screen.

18     This is the pseudonym sheet for this witness.  And this document should

19     not be broadcast.

20        Q.   Sir, as His Honour Judge Orie has just informed you, the Court

21     has ordered certain protective measures with respect to you and your

22     evidence here today.  These include the use of a pseudonym.  I will not

23     refer to you by name but instead by your pseudonym, JF-032.  Please take

24     a look at the pseudonym sheet on the screen before you and direct your

25     attention to where it says "Witness Name."  Is that your name?

Page 4637

 1        A.   Yes, that is my name.

 2        Q.   And directing your attention to where it says "date of birth," is

 3     that your date of birth?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. FARR:  Your Honours, I tender this pseudonym sheet as a

 6     Prosecution exhibit under seal.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P400 under seal,

 9     Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  P400 is admitted into evidence under seal.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. FARR:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Could we now please have

13     65 ter number 5297 on the screen.  This is the witness's statement given

14     on 16 and 17 May, 1999.  And this document should not be broadcast.

15        Q.   Sir, I'm now going to ask you a few questions about your witness

16     statement and about your prior testimony in the Milosevic case.  We'll

17     start with your written witness statement.  Do you recall giving a

18     statement to an investigator from this Tribunal in the year 1999?

19        A.   Yes, I do.  And I know that his name was Vladimir Djuro.

20        Q.   The document on the screen before you appears to be a statement

21     of yours dated 16 and 17 May, 1999.  Please look at the signatures at the

22     bottom of the first page in the English version.  Do you see your

23     signature there?

24        A.   Yes, I do.  That's my signature.

25             MR. FARR:  Could we now please have the top of page 11 in both

Page 4638

 1     languages.

 2        Q.   Sir, there's signature near the top of page 11 in the English

 3     version of the statement.  Do you recognise that as your signature?

 4        A.   Yes, that is my signature.

 5        Q.   Have you recently had the chance to review this statement in your

 6     own language?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, could we now move briefly into private

 9     session for some corrections to the statement.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

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Page 4639

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25                           [Open session]

Page 4640

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 3             MR. FARR:

 4        Q.   Sir, in the second to last paragraph of page 6 of the English

 5     version of your statement, which corresponds to the third full paragraph

 6     of page 6 of the B/C/S, there's a sentence that reads:

 7             "In mid-August 1991, Milan Martic arrived in the region."

 8             Do you have a correction to that sentence?

 9        A.   Yes, I believe that I misspoke when I stated that.  That happened

10     a month earlier, not in the month of August.

11        Q.   So in which month did that occur?

12        A.   It occurred sometime in mid-July.  Not in August as is stated in

13     here.

14        Q.   Sir, you've just given us a number of corrections to your

15     statement.  With those corrections, does this statement accurately

16     reflect what you told the OTP investigator in May 1999?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   If you were asked the same questions here today that you had been

19     asked then, would you give the same answers in substance?

20        A.   I would provide identical answers, yes.

21        Q.   Do you confirm the truthfulness and accuracy of that statement?

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23             MR. FARR:  Your Honours, at this time I tender 65 ter number 5297

24     as a Prosecution exhibit under seal.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

Page 4641

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P401 under seal,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P401 is admitted under seal.

 4             MR. FARR:

 5        Q.   Sir, we'll now turn to your prior testimony in the Milosevic

 6     case.  Did you testify in the Milosevic case on 29, 30, and 31st January,

 7     2003?

 8        A.   I did.

 9        Q.   Have you recently had the chance to review audio recordings of

10     that testimony in your own language?

11        A.   Yes, I've listened to the entire thing.

12        Q.   Page 15164 of the Milosevic transcript indicates that you were

13     asked:

14             "Did Milan Martic visit Dajl in August 1991?"

15             And your answer was:

16             "Yes, I do know something about that.  I personally greeted him

17     and talked to him because I knew him."

18             Do you have the same correction to the date mentioned in that

19     question put to you, that is, that the visit was in August 1991?

20        A.   Yes, we've already corrected that.  And I repeat:  After a

21     certain time and after I reviewed the statement, I would like to correct

22     the statement and say that he arrived in July, not in August.

23        Q.   And did you also have a correction regarding the location of

24     Martic's visit, that is, Dajl?

25        A.   Yes, and I said that he arrived in Borovo Selo, not in the Dajl,

Page 4642

 1     whatever happened next, the meeting in Bobota, the dinner.  I don't know

 2     exactly well.  You will have to jog my memory because I did state where

 3     the the dinner was.  Yes, it was in Silas, I remember now.

 4        Q.   Thank you, sir.  With those corrections, if you were asked the

 5     same questions here today that you were asked during your Milosevic

 6     testimony, would you give the same answers in substance?

 7        A.   I would, save for that discrepancy in timing, the one-month

 8     difference.  And if there is anything else to supplement about the

 9     meeting in Bobota and the dinner in Silos, I could provide you with some

10     more details, otherwise, I would provide the same answers.

11        Q.   Sir, we'll go into more detail later, but my question is simply

12     if you were asked the same questions here today that you were asked then,

13     would you give the same answers in substance?

14        A.   Yes, my answers would be the same.

15        Q.   And do you affirm the truthfulness and accuracy of that prior

16     testimony?

17        A.   I believe so, yes.

18             MR. FARR:  Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders the

19     witness's prior testimony in the Milosevic case on 29, 30, and

20     31 January, 2003, as a Prosecution exhibit under seal.  A consolidated

21     transcript of all three days of testimony has been uploaded in e-court as

22     65 ter number 5293.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.  Madam Registrar, the --

24             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P402, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  P402 is admitted into evidence.

Page 4643

 1             MR. FARR:  Your Honours, I will now turn to the 92 ter related

 2     exhibits for this witness's Milosevic testimony.  There are six related

 3     exhibits but three have previously been admitted in this case at P16,

 4     P10, and P11.  The remaining related exhibits are 65 ters number 277,

 5     286, and 1144.  Of these, only 65 ter number 1144 needs to be under seal.

 6     I spoke with the Stanisic Defence before court; I believe they have no

 7     objection.  I didn't get a chance to get the opinion of the

 8     Simatovic Defence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm looking at you, Mr. Bakrac.  Same position as

10     the Stanisic Defence?

11             Then Madam Registrar, could you assign numbers to the three

12     exhibits just mentioned by Mr. Farr.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 277 becomes Exhibit P403.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 286 becomes Exhibit P404.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  P404 is admitted into evidence.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  And 65 ter 1144 becomes Exhibit P405 under seal,

18     Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  P405 is admitted into evidence under seal.

20             MR. FARR:

21        Q.   Sir, now that your prior statement and testimony have been

22     admitted into evidence, I will now read out a summary of the public

23     portions of your statement and testimony for the benefit of the public.

24     This summary will not constitute evidence.  However, I would ask you to

25     listen carefully to the summary.

Page 4644

 1             Witness JF-032 gives evidence about events in the Serb autonomous

 2     region of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, or SAO SBWS.  He states

 3     that both Croats and Serbs began arming themselves in early 1991.  He

 4     describes the transportation of weapons to Serb controlled areas in the

 5     region from Serbia via the Danube and through Borovo Selo.  He indicates

 6     that an individual with the surname Sarac from the Serbian DB was

 7     involved in this process.  The witness describes the Croatian police

 8     assault on Borovo Selo in early May 1992 and the JNA intervention to stop

 9     the fighting.

10             In mid-July 1991, the witness attended a meeting of all Serb

11     former policemen from Vukovar with Goran Hadzic.  The purpose of the

12     meeting was to set up a civilian police force which was done following

13     the meeting.  During this period, the witness had contact with

14     Ilija Kojic and a person who was introduced to him by the name Ante.  The

15     witness was told that Ante was a member of the Serbian DB.  The witness

16     later learned that Ante's real name was Radovan Kostic.

17             The witness describes the areas of the SAO SBWS that Goran Hadzic

18     believed should be under Serb control.  The witness describes the attack

19     on Dajl on 1st August, 1991, by the Serb TO and the JNA.  He says that

20     the Croat population fled in response to this attack and that Croats were

21     also forcefully driven out by the TO with the support of the JNA.

22             The witness describes a visit of Milan Martic to his region and

23     the surrounding areas in the summer of 1991.  While there, Martic met

24     with Goran Hadzic and other leaders.  The witness states that Arkan

25     arrived in the region with his men in August 1991.  He arrived at

Page 4645

 1     approximately the same time as a man with the surname Zavisic.  The

 2     witness saw Jovica Stanisic in Dajl one day in mid-September 1991.

 3     Stanisic arrived in front of the government building in Dajl with several

 4     vehicles and an escort.  He got out of his vehicle, demanded a meeting

 5     with Goran Hadzic and the TO commanders, and started loudly asking

 6     everyone present why Vukovar had not yet fallen.  The meeting with Hadzic

 7     and the TO commanders that Stanisic had demanded took place several hours

 8     later in the TO premises in Dajl.

 9             The witness also describes how he learned about the incident at

10     the Dajl police station during which Arkan and Goran Hadzic took a number

11     of prisoners away.  The witness later learned that the bodies of these

12     prisoners were exhumed from a well in Celije in 1998 or 1999.

13        Q.   Sir, I'll now ask you some clarifying questions about your prior

14     statement and testimony.  Please keep in mind that we are already

15     familiar with your statement and testimony so you do not need to repeat

16     every detail mentioned in them.  Instead, please focus carefully on the

17     question I asked and try to give as precise an answer as possible.

18             I'll first ask you a few questions about the arming of Serbs in

19     your area.  At page 15124 of your Milosevic testimony, you were asked

20     about the transport of weapons from Serbia to Borovo Selo and then on to

21     the villages in your region.  And you mentioned a person with the surname

22     Sarac being involved.  My question is:  What exactly was Sarac's role in

23     bringing weapons to Borovo Selo?

24        A.   What you have just said.  Across the Danube, they transported the

25     weapons intended for the territory.  Those weapons were then stored in

Page 4646

 1     Borovo Selo.

 2        Q.   And can you tell me how you knew that Sarac was involved in this

 3     process?

 4        A.   There's no time connection.  There was a time when I was in

 5     Bobota and then I was in Borovo Selo.  But I always kept in touch with

 6     Borovo Selo, and I was in contact with Ilija Kovac and Ante, and I

 7     learned from them.  And I saw that man on several occasions, as he came

 8     usually in the evening hours.  And I saw those people bringing weapons

 9     into Borovo Selo.

10             MR. FARR:  Your Honours, could we please move into private

11     session.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

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17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

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Page 4647











11 Pages 4647-4654 redacted. Private session.















Page 4655

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 6             MR. FARR:

 7        Q.   Sir, could you please tell us where in Bobota this meeting took

 8     place?

 9        A.   At the elementary school in the main street, maybe 50 metres from

10     the very centre of the village.

11        Q.   And who attended this meeting at the elementary school in Bobota?

12        A.   All TO commanders, the president of the municipality in exile,

13     Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic, representatives of the army, and all those who

14     meant something, people in positions, presidents of local communes.

15        Q.   At this meeting, did Milan Martic say anything about what was

16     happening in and around Knin at that time?

17        A.   Yes.  Milan Martic went into that order.  First he said where he

18     had come from, where he had been, what he had done there, along those

19     lines mostly.  He spoke about what had happened and what was going on in

20     Knin Krajina, and that was more or less what he said in very general

21     outline.  He basically put us in the picture of what was going on in the

22     territory of Knin because we were not familiar with the area and the

23     developments over there.

24        Q.   And as precisely as you can remember, what did he say was

25     happening in and around Knin at that time?

Page 4656

 1        A.   At that time, the operations had already started.  Some police

 2     stations had already been attacked, some villages had already been

 3     liberated, but I can't give you any more than that.  I believe that that

 4     was all that was said.

 5        Q.   And what did you understand him to mean when he said that

 6     villages had been liberated?

 7        A.   Well, that meant that police stations had been taken over just

 8     like in the territory of Vukovar.  They expelled the former police

 9     officers from there, and those villages remained, as it were, under the

10     control of the members of the police of the SAO Krajina.

11        Q.   You've just said they expelled the former police officers from

12     there.  Do you know what ethnicity the former police officers who were

13     expelled were?

14        A.   They were Croats and the villages were predominantly Croatian

15     villages.

16        Q.   You've described what he told you happened to the police officers

17     in those villages.  Did he tell you anything about what happened to the

18     civilian populations in those villages?

19        A.   No.  There was not much said about that.  I can only assume that

20     the civilians had also abandoned their villages and left the area.

21        Q.   Did Martic mention the name of any of the villages where this had

22     taken place?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

24             MR. JORDASH:  Objection, Your Honour.  We've received a proofing

25     note which deals generally with this, but we certainly haven't been given

Page 4657

 1     a proofing note which deals with the specifics of which villages.  If my

 2     learned friend knows the answer to the question, in our submission, it

 3     should have been disclosed.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr.

 5             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'll take the

 6     opportunity, since my learned friend Mr. Jordash has interrupted the

 7     Prosecutor, and I believe that from now on the witness is being asked to

 8     speculate.  On page 22, line 21, he said that he can only suppose what

 9     had happened in the villages.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, he was not invited.  The question was

11     what the witness was told and the question after that again was about

12     what was told to the witness, although I would like to add to that that

13     Mr. Farr, when you referred to the villages where this had taken place,

14     then that's ambiguous because the witness said something about what

15     happened, what taking over means, and referred to what happened at the

16     police stations.  There his answers were of a rather factual nature,

17     whereas in relation to civilians it was assumptions.  So therefore you

18     should have been more precise, either to establish the basis for the

19     assumption or to be more precise in your question what you were referring

20     to as the villages where it - what that was is uncertain - what -- where

21     it had taken place.

22             Now, apart from that, there was another matter.  I think I dealt

23     with the first -- the objection raised by Mr. Bakrac.  The other one was

24     about disclosure in the proofing notes.

25             MR. FARR:  Your Honours, we would submit that this is a detail of

Page 4658

 1     the witness's evidence.  That's not something that properly is required

 2     to be disclosed.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, isn't it true that Mr. Jordash would have had

 4     an opportunity to verify what had happened in specific villages rather

 5     than to be left with an entire area not knowing into what village to

 6     look?

 7             MR. FARR:  If that's the Chamber's view, then I withdraw the

 8     question.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just ...

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether or not withdrawal was the necessary

12     consequence of what was said can be left alone since you have withdrawn

13     the question.  Please proceed.

14             MR. FARR:

15        Q.   Sir, do you know what Milan Martic did after this meeting?

16        A.   What he did after the meeting?  After the meeting we went to that

17     dinner in Silas village.

18        Q.   And where did Martic spend that night, if you know?

19        A.   He returned to Borovo Selo and spent the night at

20     Jovica Vucenovic's house.

21        Q.   And do you know when Martic left your area?

22        A.   I know on the following day, in the morning, but I don't know who

23     with.  I really don't know.  I wasn't the one who took him across the

24     Danube.

25        Q.   Sir, I'd now like to draw your attention to the occasion in

Page 4659

 1     September 1991 when you saw Jovica Stanisic when he came to visit Dajl.

 2     You described this incident at pages 15178 to 15180 of your Milosevic

 3     testimony.  At page 15178, you describe Stanisic's arrival in Dajl

 4     saying:

 5             "I saw him in the centre of Dajl and, as we said, that was

 6     sometime in mid-September 1991.  It was about 9.00 or 10.00 in the

 7     morning.  Jovica Stanisic arrived with an escort and several vehicles.

 8     He got out of the vehicle, and all that took place in front of the

 9     government building, or rather, the premises where Mr. Hadzic was."

10             My first question is:  Do you remember how many vehicles were

11     with Mr. Stanisic?

12        A.   I believe that there were either four or five.  I don't know

13     exactly.

14        Q.   Do you recall what types of vehicles?

15        A.   All of them were jeeps.  Perhaps the first vehicle was a

16     passenger vehicle.  I really don't know.  It's very difficult for me to

17     say anything after such a long time.

18        Q.   Do you remember the licence plates?

19        A.   I do.  All the licence plates were Belgrade licence plates,

20     BG plates.

21        Q.   In your Milosevic testimony, you said that Jovica Stanisic said

22     two things when he got out of the vehicle.  First, he said that he wanted

23     a meeting with Hadzic and the TO commanders.  That's at pages 15178 and

24     15179 of your Milosevic testimony.  And second, he screamed at everyone

25     present and asked them why Vukovar hadn't fallen yet.  That's at page

Page 4660

 1     15179.  I'd like to start with the first of those things first.  Can you

 2     please tell us as precisely as possible what Stanisic said with respect

 3     to the meeting with Hadzic and the TO commanders on that day?

 4        A.   Exactly what you have just said.  You are quoting my words.  I

 5     was there.  I was standing with five, six, or perhaps ten people.  I

 6     don't know exactly how many there were.  When the vehicles stopped, at

 7     one point somebody shoved me.  Somebody said to me, Stanisic is here.  I

 8     looked in that direction and I recognised the person who was coming out

 9     of the vehicle.  In a very strange way he inquired where Goran Hadzic

10     was.  (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14             He did not shake hands either with me or anybody else.  He

15     immediately started shouting how come Vukovar has not fallen yet, how

16     come Vukovar is not liberated yet.  And that was all.  He turned

17     around -- and that lasted no more than 40 to 50 seconds.  He turned

18     around and he got into the vehicle.  But I forgot something else.  Within

19     the space of several hours, he asked us to find Hadzic and for all of us

20     to gather in a meeting.  I don't even remember whether the venue of the

21     meeting was ever mentioned, whether the venue was supposed to be the TO

22     staff.  I know where the meeting was held, but I don't know whether that

23     was mentioned at that point.  The only things that were mentioned was for

24     Goran Hadzic to be located immediately and for the meeting to take place

25     ASAP.

Page 4661

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, I'm looking at the clock.  If you could

 2     find a suitable time for a break between now and the next three or four

 3     minutes.

 4             MR. FARR:  Could we just move into private session briefly.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4662

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

24             We'll have a break, and we resume at five minutes past 4.00.  But

25     the expectation is that we then immediately will move back into private

Page 4663

 1     session.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 3.35 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We move --

 5             Mr. Farr, I take it that you want us to move into private session

 6     again?

 7             MR. FARR:  Yes, that's correct, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

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24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4664











11 Pages 4664-4692 redacted. Private session.















Page 4693

 1   (redacted)

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 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

23             We'll have a break, and we'll resume at five minutes past 6.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 5.36 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 6.08 p.m.

Page 4694

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber has considered the request for

 2     postponement of the cross-examination by two weeks.  That request is

 3     denied.  Very early you said that if there's more need to -- if the new

 4     material, which is by the way limited in comparing it to the entirety of

 5     the evidence, but if that would trigger any need for further time to

 6     further investigate or further prepare, what I meant to say and what the

 7     Chamber meant is that if such new investigations or if such new research

 8     would lead to the need to put further questions to the witness which

 9     could not be immediately put to him, then, of course, the Chamber would

10     then consider that.

11             So we'll just start with the cross-examination.  And if at the

12     end and also perhaps after the first investigations and the first

13     exploring of the matter it would look as if further information would

14     trigger the need to further question the witness, to further

15     cross-examine the witness, that we'll then consider such a request.  But

16     it's not a reason not to start with the cross-examination now.

17             Therefore, who is first?

18             Mr. Jordash, you're the first to cross-examine the witness?

19             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness JF-032, you will now be cross-examined by

21     Mr. Jordash.  Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.

22             You may proceed.

23             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.  Can I just confirm that we are in open

24     session, please?  Yes, I see --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I think we finished in open session and we are

Page 4695

 1     in open session now.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:

 3        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.

 4        A.   Good afternoon.

 5        Q.   I just want to ask you first of all about something which you

 6     said at the end of your evidence.  It's slightly out of turn, but it

 7     makes some sense.  You mentioned that Arkan was able to cross the

 8     check-points or didn't listen to the check-points.  Did I understand that

 9     correctly?  He used to pass through the check-points without being

10     stopped?

11        A.   Well, they were being stopped, but they wouldn't stop.  That's

12     how it was.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please not forget to switch your

14     microphone off if the witness answers the request because we have voice

15     distortion active.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Certainly.

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19             MR. JORDASH:  Could we go into private session, please.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4696











11 Pages 4696-4699 redacted. Private session.















Page 4700

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

17        Q.   And what post did Radovan Kostic occupy in 1991?  What was his

18     actual assignment?

19        A.   In 1991, Radovan Kostic, as far as I know, held no official

20     position.  Only later, in late 1991.  But up until July or August maybe,

21     he was in Belgrade, and he was the co-ordinator of everything that was

22     going on in our area.  He would come and issue orders as to what should

23     be done and how, with regard to the establishment of the police and its

24     tasks.

25        Q.   What post, then, did he occupy in late 1991, according to you?

Page 4701

 1        A.   As far as I know, he was constantly employed by the MUP of

 2     Serbia, the state security.  But the MUP anyway.  He was their man who

 3     came to our area daily.

 4        Q.   So you're suggesting Kostic did not have any assignment in the

 5     local region other than being assigned by the Serbian MUP?  Is that your

 6     evidence?

 7        A.   I cannot tell.  He did have assignments, but what kind of

 8     assignments precisely, I cannot tell.  I have already explained where I

 9     saw him, what he gave me, but how do I describe his -- how can I give you

10     a job description of his?  What exactly he was, in which position, that's

11     not anything I can do.

12        Q.   So does it follow from what you've said that you don't know who

13     gave him orders in 1991 and 1992?

14        A.   I can only assume.  I would be lying if I were to say that he

15     received orders from A or B.  That would be wrong.  I don't want to do

16     that.  I can only say where I saw him, when, et cetera.  No more than

17     that.

18        Q.   And does it follow that you cannot say who gave him orders

19     locally, if anyone gave him orders locally?  I mean from the SBWS

20     political or military structures at that time?

21        A.   I really cannot tell.

22        Q.   Can you confirm he was a police officer by trade, that he was the

23     commander of Darda Police Station in 1990?  Are you aware of that?

24        A.   I also heard as much, but I don't have more information than you

25     have.  No more or less.

Page 4702

 1        Q.   Did you hear that he lost his job as a result of purges by the

 2     Croatian MUP?

 3        A.   Yes, I did.

 4        Q.   Along with several hundred other police officers of Serbian

 5     ethnicity from the SBWS region; is that correct?

 6        A.   Well, you should limit yourself to Baranja and Eastern Slavonia.

 7     Those are two areas -- well, they are a whole, but still they are two

 8     separate areas.  And there was little co-ordination.  We knew very little

 9     about Baranja and what went on there, so I can't speak about that at all.

10        Q.   Well, let me qualify the question to Western Slavonia only.  Did

11     several hundred police officers like?

12             THE ACCUSED STANISIC: [Interpretation] Eastern Slavonia.

13             MR. JORDASH:  I beg your pardon.  Eastern Slavonia.

14             Let me repeat the question.

15        Q.   Was, as far as you are aware, Kostic amongst a number of several

16     hundred, I suggest, police officers from Eastern Slavonia who lost their

17     jobs in 1991?

18        A.   You made a mistake again.  Not Eastern Slavonia but Baranja.  You

19     are talking about Baranja, and it is true.  What you have stated is true.

20     But the area is Baranja, not Eastern Slavonia.

21        Q.   Okay.  And let me just ask the same question about Ilija Kojic.

22     Was he a police officer before the war?

23   (redacted)

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Farr.

25             MR. FARR:  I just think we need a redaction of that last answer.

Page 4703

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   What assignment or post or title did Ilija Kojic have in 1991 as

 4     far as you are aware?

 5        A.   I don't know what period you are interested in during 1991.  We

 6     are talking about a period from March to the end, and he changed a few

 7     positions.  So what would you be interested in?  What should be the

 8     beginning of the period that you are interested in?  And then I can start

 9     giving you an answer.

10        Q.   Well, let's start at the beginning of the year and move our way

11     through it.  Just as succinctly as you can, please, the titles, if you

12     know them.

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. JORDASH:  May we move into private session for a moment,

21     Your Honour, please.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4704











11 Pages 4704-4708 redacted. Private session.















Page 4709

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 8   (redacted)

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11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

23             MR. JORDASH:

24        Q.   Without mentioning your job, Mr. Witness, are you suggesting you

25     have no idea where the JNA were obtaining their weapons from, where they

Page 4710

 1     had their ammunition from at that time in May and June of 1991?

 2        A.   You are asking me about the JNA?

 3        Q.   The JNA.

 4        A.   How am I supposed to know about the JNA?  The JNA was what it

 5     was.  It had its weapons.  We had nothing whatsoever to do with them.

 6     None of us.  They were their own institution.

 7        Q.   In May and June of 1991, did the TO, from what you observe, have

 8     weapons?

 9        A.   In the month of May, yes, they were already armed.

10        Q.   Was it the case at that time that the JNA was in control of

11     Borovo Selo?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And worked alongside the TO to maintain control; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And is it your evidence that you don't know how either of them

16     were armed at that point, where their weapons had come from in

17     May of 1991?

18        A.   Kindly try to make your questions a bit more succinct.  Your

19     questions are just too complicated for me to answer them.

20        Q.   Fair point, Mr. Witness.  I'll do that.  From what you observed

21     attending the HQ of the TO, both the TO and the JNA had large quantities

22     of weapons in May of 1991, did they not?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   The problem at that time was that there were too many weapons in

25     circulation in the region in May and June of 1991; was that not the case?

Page 4711

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And this was a problem later on for the police who had to deal

 3     with massive circulation of weapons in the local citizenry; is that

 4     correct?

 5        A.   You are right.

 6        Q.   And is it correct that in May and June Seselj came to the region

 7     and held a rally in Borovo Selo?

 8        A.   Seselj was one of those who gave a speech in Borovo Selo.  I

 9     don't know whether that was in late May or early June.  I can't remember.

10     But I remember that I attended the rally myself.

11        Q.   Did Seselj turn up with armed men?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Did he leave any men behind who were armed by the TO or the JNA?

14        A.   As far as I know, no.

15        Q.   Did Jovo Ostojic come to Borovo Selo in May and June 1991?

16     O-s-t-o-j-i-c.

17        A.   Yes, I saw him on several occasions in Borovo Selo.

18        Q.   And he wore Chetnik insignia, didn't he?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And he came with a group of men who were armed or were armed by

21     the JNA and TO; is that correct?

22        A.   I don't know who armed him.  I really don't.

23        Q.   Was he armed when he came in the first instance?  Were he and his

24     men armed, or did they obtain arms locally?

25        A.   I can't answer that either.  I would lie if I told you that I

Page 4712

 1     know exactly.  I know that I saw him and his men, that they were armed.

 2     I don't know whether they came armed or whether they got hold of the

 3     weapons there and then.  I really don't know.

 4        Q.   Would you accept this:  That if a man of fighting age in

 5     Borovo Selo wanted to be armed in May or June of 1991, he could obtain

 6     those weapons from the JNA or the TO, from what you observed?

 7        A.   You have to make a distinction between the JNA and the rest.  The

 8     JNA never provided anybody with weapons so that everybody could see.  The

 9     TO did.  The TO did provide them with weapons, not the JNA.

10        Q.   So the question then remains, if a man of fighting age wanted to

11     be armed in Borovo Selo in May and June, he could have just gone to the

12     TO HQ and organised to obtain a weapon; is that fair?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Am I also correct that when Arkan came, he was soon

15     supplied by the JNA with three military vehicles, the kind that could

16     only be obtained by the JNA?

17             Maybe I should simplify the question.  Did Arkan have three

18     military vehicles when he arrived or soon after he arrived in the region?

19        A.   The question for me is just difficult.  I don't know how else to

20     tell you.  I never saw Arkan in military vehicles.  This is the first

21     time I hear that he may have had military vehicles at his disposal.

22        Q.   Can you confirm that Arkan had good relations with the commander

23     of the Novi Sad corps in 1991?

24        A.   I can't answer that.  I don't know.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 4713

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I can leave that subject there.  Thank you,

 2     Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It's almost 7.00.  We will adjourn for the day.

 4             Witness JF-032, before we adjourn I would like to instruct you

 5     that you should not speak with anyone or communicate in any other form

 6     with anyone about your testimony, whether that is testimony you've given

 7     already today or whether that's testimony still to be given.  I would

 8     like to see you back tomorrow in the afternoon, this same courtroom.

 9     Perhaps if Madam Usher already escorts you out of the courtroom, then

10     we'll after that move into open session.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, when you continue tomorrow --

13             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, are we not in open session at the moment?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No, that's right.  We are -- I wanted to ask you

15     whether you expect to restart in an open session tomorrow or whether you

16     would still continue in private session?

17             MR. JORDASH:  I think start in private if I could, please.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, just to -- so that the public is informed

19     that -- what they can expect tomorrow.

20             We will adjourn for the day.  And we resume tomorrow, Tuesday,

21     the 4th of May, quarter past 2.00, Courtroom II.  And we expect to move

22     into private session quickly after we have resumed.  We stand adjourned.

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 4th day of

25                           May, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.