Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5857

 1                           Thursday, 17 June 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon

 7     everybody in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-03-69-T.

 8     The Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  We move into private

10     session for a second.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon.  Good afternoon, Ms. Radic.  Before

25     you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that you

Page 5858

 1     make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth,

 2     and nothing but the truth.  The text is now handed out to you by

 3     Madam Usher.  May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the witness, please.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 6     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7                           WITNESS:  ANNA MARIA RADIC

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Ms. Radic.  Before,

10     Ms. Friedman, you start your examination-in-chief, the Chamber is

11     informed that a new version of the expert report is submitted where most

12     of pages -- or at least part of page 31 and 45 are stricken and all the

13     pages in between.  The Chamber understands this to be that where the

14     major problem may have been in the unsourced description of military

15     historical events, that of course by choosing this way out, that

16     everything that is maybe related to that, that is observations about

17     population movement is then out as well.

18             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes, Your Honour.  But for the extent to which it

19     appears in other parts of the report and as lay laid out in the various

20     tables next to the report which still documents movement of people, but

21     the description as you described in that section we will not be relying

22     upon.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's clear that resolves at least a huge

24     problem the Chamber had with this report, that it gives a totally

25     unsourced description of all kind of facts with all kind of details where

Page 5859

 1     one could wonder how, where those facts are taken from, and what in the

 2     expertise of this witness would allow her to form an opinion about that

 3     where she apparently not has observed it herself.  May I take it that

 4     this is the result of communication between Defence and Prosecution this

 5     morning.

 6             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Any remaining problems because -- or is this --

 8     could we start not to say that you would agree with everything that

 9     remains, Mr. Petrovic or Mr. Jordash, but as a starting point can we

10     proceed on the basis of the expert report as it is submitted now.

11             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.  Thank you.

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have a brief

13     observation to make.  Part 13, which is less than a page has to do with

14     the population fleeing Vojvodina and Serbia, I don't think it is of any

15     relevance to this case and I see no reason for that part to be left in

16     the report.  It's not a matter discussed in the indictment and although

17     it's a small part, that should be left out of the report in order to

18     speed things up even further.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll consider or not whether to accept that part.

20     In addition to that, Ms. Friedman, if I look at the fourth paragraph of

21     chapter 13, then I see that still some of methods of expulsion were

22     similar to those already described in Croatia from individual threats and

23     incidents in places with Croatian population to the murders of Croats in

24     the period 1991, 1995, which is similar to what we find in many of the

25     stricken pages.  But we'll consider that further, Mr. Petrovic.

Page 5860

 1             Ms. Radic, you may have understood that there has been some

 2     discussion as to the sources of the knowledge of parts of your report

 3     which seem not to be directly linked to your field of expertise, which

 4     has resulted in taking out major parts of the report, especially those

 5     parts where you describe in some details matters where it's totally

 6     unclear from the report what the sources of your knowledge are and which

 7     apparently are not directly linked to your field of expertise however, to

 8     describe that because, although you are a trained sociologist as I do

 9     understand, it has some -- the way in which you worked made you half

10     demographer as well, if I may say it in that way, but much of that

11     information falls outside of the scope both of the direct expert skills

12     of a sociologist or a demographer.  Ms. Friedman, are you ready to

13     examine the witness?

14             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes, I am, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You'll first now be examined by Ms. Friedman.

16     Ms. Friedman is counsel for the Prosecution.  Please proceed.

17             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

18                           Examination by Ms. Friedman:

19        Q.   Good afternoon, Ms. Radic, could you please state your full name

20     for the record.

21        A.   Anna Maria Radic.

22        Q.   And have you brought any papers with you to court today which you

23     may wish to refer to during your testimony?

24        A.   Yes, I have.

25        Q.   And did you prepare these paper and notes yourself in preparation

Page 5861

 1     for the testimony today, or did you gather them yourself?

 2        A.   Yes, I did.

 3             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Your Honours, with the Chamber's leave I would ask

 4     that Ms. Radic be permitted to consult these reports and notes if

 5     necessary during her testimony.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, may before Your Honours rule on this,

 7     we clarify exactly what these notes are.  My learned friend asked the

 8     question whether the witness had prepared the notes for the testimony or

 9     gathered them for the testimony, and the two may well be quite different.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  May I suggest the following:  Whenever you consider

11     it necessary to consult your notes, we'd like you to inform us about it

12     and also what the notes are about so that we would know that not in

13     general and not spend a lot of time on that, but on each specific

14     occasion where apparently there's a need to go back to your notes, that

15     we -- that you inform us about this and that we know what these notes

16     are, because, Mr. Jordash, it may be far clearer in many circumstances to

17     know what the question is and then sometimes it will be self-explanatory

18     that you would need notes, for example, if you ask about numbers, you

19     would not have learned it by heart and then the notes will be about the

20     numbers.  Whereas in other circumstances it may need a totally different

21     clarification.  Yes?  So please inform us whenever you want to consult

22     your notes, Ms. Radic.

23             Please proceed.

24             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you.

25        Q.   Ms. Radic, is your current position as the head of the department

Page 5862

 1     for areas of special state concern in the ministry of regional

 2     development, forestry and water management?

 3        A.   Yes, it is.

 4        Q.   And is it true that this department was formerly called the

 5     administration for the return of displaced persons and refugees and that

 6     this former entity was the legal successor of the office for displaced

 7     person and refugees?

 8        A.   Yes, that is correct.  And it was also called administration.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Friedman, the follow-up of the several

10     institutions, I think I've read it eight, nine, or ten times in the

11     report, so it's really repetitious to what is written down already.

12     Please proceed.

13             MS. FRIEDMAN:

14        Q.   And the Office of Displaced Persons and Refugees, was it called

15     the ODPR?

16        A.   Yes, it was.

17        Q.   So when did you begin working for the ODPR?

18        A.   From the very beginning in 1994.

19        Q.   And does that mean that notwithstanding all the change, that's

20     the office, the ODPR, that you've been working at since 1994?

21        A.   Not at the same position, but it was with the administration

22     throughout, yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MS. FRIEDMAN:  And could I ask the Court Officer to please call

25     up 65 ter 5364, the curriculum vitae of the witness.

Page 5863

 1        Q.   Ms. Radic, do you recognise this as a true and accurate copy of

 2     your CV?

 3        A.   Yes.  However, my current position is wrong.  Head of

 4     administration for areas of special state concern and not for areas

 5     outside of the areas of special state concern.  So I am head of

 6     administration for the areas of special state concern, that is the

 7     correct title.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MS. FRIEDMAN:  And I would ask that this exhibit, 65 ter 5364, be

10     tendered into evidence.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Objections?  Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P549, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  P549 is admitted into evidence.

14             MS. FRIEDMAN:

15        Q.   Now, I would like to ask briefly about your first position in the

16     ODPR as spokesperson and public relations officer between 1994 and 2000,

17     and did this position involve preparing any reports?

18        A.   Yes, it did.  That is why I was employed by the then Office for

19     Displaced Persons and Refugees.  I worked in public relations, which

20     included preparing public reports and other types of reports pertaining

21     to displaced persons and refugees who were either accommodated or taken

22     in by Croatia.

23        Q.   And did you ever write reports in conjunction with other

24     organisations?

25        A.   Yes, I did, with governmental organisations, NGOs, and some

Page 5864

 1     international organisations such as the UNHCR.  We had very close

 2     co-operation with them for three years.

 3        Q.   And in your various positions until today, have you had occasion

 4     to use the database of displaced persons, refugees, and returnees that

 5     you discuss in your report?

 6        A.   Yes, I have.

 7        Q.   And how long have you been working with this database?

 8        A.   Ever since it came into being, and in the forum as it stands

 9     today, that was since 1994.

10             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Could the Court Officer now call up Ms. Radic's

11     expert report which is 65 ter 5363.  Sorry, 5 -- yes, 5363.

12        Q.   While it's being loaded in the B/C/S, can you say, Ms. Radic,

13     whether you recognise this as your report?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   I will continue presuming that it will come on the screen

16     shortly.  Now, in your report you've described the registration process

17     of displaced persons and refugees in great detail.  So would it be fair

18     to characterise it as beginning as an ad hoc process as soon as the first

19     displaced people began arriving in 1991 into new areas and then involving

20     four separate registrations which were conducted by the ODPR?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   At page 11 in the B/C/S and 16 to 17 in the English, you describe

23     the four official registrations as a registration of displaced persons in

24     April 1992; a registration in March 1993 of refugees from

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina; a third registration in June 2004 of both category,

Page 5865

 1     displaced persons and refugees; and a fourth in 1997 which included

 2     displaced persons, refugees, and returnees; is that a fair

 3     characterisation?

 4        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 5        Q.   Now, again, all of this information is contained in your report,

 6     so I will just ask you for some specific clarifications.  The first thing

 7     I would like to ask is whether when you use the term "expelled persons"

 8     in your report and then when it appears in the tables, if this is a

 9     reference to people who were displaced internally within the Republic of

10     Croatia?

11        A.   Yes, that is correct.

12        Q.   And I now want to ask you just a few questions about the Office

13     of the UN High Commission for Refugees, the UNHCR in Croatia.  In your

14     report at page 2 in the English and the B/C/S, you mention that the UNHCR

15     office in Croatia was opened in December 1991, at the same time as the

16     Office for Expelled Persons and refugees, the ODPR, and that the two

17     offices were located in the same premises.  My question is whether the

18     UNHCR was involved at all in the work of the ODPR?

19        A.   Yes, at the beginning.  Our co-operation existed since the very

20     beginning of the process.  Naturally, in Croatia there was no expertise,

21     no expert knowledge required to take in and accommodate any displaced

22     persons.  We did have a number of organisations which took part, but, for

23     example, in terms of registering IDPs, this type of expert knowledge was

24     key and it came precisely from the UNHCR.

25        Q.   Did they provide any -- you talk about their expert knowledge,

Page 5866

 1     was it about the registration process?

 2        A.   Yes, the registration process, but one also needs to keep in mind

 3     that they assisted directly in terms of providing humanitarian assistance

 4     arriving in Croatia at the time, given that a large segment of the

 5     Croatian population had fled their homes.  It took a lot of organisation

 6     and knowledge and the UNHCR was of great assistance.  It all took place,

 7     of course, in very close co-operation with our office at the time.

 8        Q.   Did they also provide any recommendations as to what to put in

 9     the forms that you were using to register people?

10        A.   Yes, they did.

11        Q.   And was their advice implemented in subsequent versions of the

12     form?

13        A.   Yes, it was.

14        Q.   Now, section 10 of your report discusses preliminary data from

15     1991 up until the time of the first formal registration in April 1992.

16             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Would the Court Usher please display page 17 in

17     B/C/S and 26 in English.

18        Q.   Now, I'm looking at the second paragraph in English, and it says

19     that the date, in relation to the first records of expulsions record the

20     date as the 1st August of 1994; is that correct?

21        A.   Of 1991, yes.

22        Q.   Yes, that's right.

23        A.   This must have been a typographical error.

24             MS. FRIEDMAN:  So I wanted to note that typographical error for

25     the record and also that it appears on page 34 in the English, the second

Page 5867

 1     paragraph and page 22 in the B/C/S, the fourth full paragraph as well.  I

 2     would now like to look at table 1, which is at pages 31 to 32 in B/C/S,

 3     and 48 to 49 in English.  And I would ask the Court Officer to please

 4     pull up those pages.

 5        Q.   This is an analysis of the population based on the 1991 census.

 6     And Ms. Radic, are the municipalities that are named here, the

 7     municipalities as they existed at the time in 1991 or as they exist

 8     today?

 9        A.   These municipalities represent the municipalities as they exist

10     today as well as the counties.

11        Q.   Okay.  And what does it mean when certain municipalities are

12     highlighted in yellow?

13        A.   The municipalities in yellow were those which were not completely

14     out of reach of Croatian authorities.  They were only partially occupied

15     in the period between 1991 and 1995.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MS. FRIEDMAN:  And would the Court Officer please call up 65 ter

18     5368.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, could you tell us, Ms. Radic, what

20     is the difference between group 1 and group 2?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here we have all the areas affected

22     by war in 1991.  As of 1996, we refer to them as areas of special state

23     concern when the law on areas of special state concern was passed.  It

24     encompassed all of the areas affected by the war and divided into two

25     groups.  The first group were those settlements or those areas which had

Page 5868

 1     municipal seats which were not further than 15 kilometres from the state

 2     border and having less than 5.000 population, including all of the areas

 3     of the Croatian Danubian regions; the second group includes all other

 4     towns, settlements, and municipalities which between 1991 and 1995 were

 5     occupied.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, please proceed.

 7             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you, and we will return to the report later

 8     so I will tender it later, but for now I would like to call up 5368.

 9        Q.   Ms. Radic, were you asked to prepare a table which reflects, to

10     the extent that you are able to determine, which municipality in 1991 and

11     which current municipality and county certain places are found in?

12        A.   Yes, I was.

13        Q.   And is this the table you prepared?

14        A.   Yes, I did.

15        Q.   And the document contains mostly place names, but the headings

16     are in English.  Do you understand the English language?

17        A.   I do.

18        Q.   Have you reviewed the table before you?

19        A.   I have.

20        Q.   And is it your signature on the bottom of the page?

21        A.   Yes, it is.

22        Q.   I would now like to look at, well, for example, the first place

23     name and there's -- it says Dubica.  And in brackets, it says

24     Hrvatska Dubica, what do these parentheses indicate?

25        A.   I presume that this is Hrvatska Dubica and not Dubica because

Page 5869

 1     such a place does not exist in Croatia without the adjective Hrvatska and

 2     its mentioned in a group of other places in the area of Banovina, and

 3     because of that I presume that's Hrvatska Dubica.

 4        Q.   When you say "mentioned" are you referring to a mention in the

 5     Prosecution's indictment in this case?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And some of the rows have been left blank, what does that mean?

 8        A.   Out of those names listed here, I could not determine which

 9     places they referred to.  For instance, Cerovljani, there are several

10     places named Cerovljani.  They also have a prefix, and addendum.  I could

11     not determine such a short time which place this would refer to.

12     However, in our database, there are many settlements, all the settlements

13     in the Republic of Croatia.  For instance, the place name Daljska Atar.

14     I could not determine whether it's a geographical toponym or a place name

15     or a name of a settlement.  Vukovic as well, it could be a hamlet, part

16     of a bigger village and not a separate entity.

17        Q.   Thank you.  So for the place names that you were able to indicate

18     the former municipality and current municipality, the information on this

19     table is correct to the best of your knowledge?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Your Honours, this table was prepared to assist

22     the Chamber in cross-referencing the municipalities in the charts that

23     have been provided with the locations in the indictment.  And also on the

24     second page of the table, we've included the locations that are mentioned

25     in the relevant adjudicated facts.  I've provided copy of these tables to

Page 5870

 1     the Defence yesterday and I tender them at this time as a Prosecution

 2     exhibit.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections?  Mr. Registrar, the number would be?

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P550, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  P550 is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed.

 6             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7        Q.   In the annexes to your report, tables 2, 3, and 4 all discuss

 8     data collected in March 1992 before the official registrations began.

 9     Table 3, for example, provides statistics on displaced persons and

10     refugees from the 20th of March, 1992, and it contains five separate

11     tables.  Now, table 4 is a similar report, it contains the same types of

12     tables and it is from just one week later, March 27th, 1992.  So my

13     question to you, Ms. Radic, is if you can explain why you've included

14     both of these tables in your report?

15        A.   Those are the original tables dating from the relevant time, I

16     don't have them before me so that I could check.  But they differ in one

17     thing, one table is organised by the area where people were accommodated,

18     the other areas in Croatia where they fled to.  The second table was, I

19     think, organised by the place of origin of those displaced persons.  I do

20     believe that this is the main difference between the tables but that's

21     what I presume because I don't have them before me so that I could verify

22     that.

23        Q.   Yes, that's -- do you actually have a hard copy before you which

24     would assist, and if not we'll call it up on the screen.  Do you have the

25     tables to your report?

Page 5871

 1        A.   I don't think that I've got those tables here.  If you could

 2     please show them on the screen so I can tell you precisely.

 3        Q.   Yes.

 4             MS. FRIEDMAN:  If we could turn to page 33 in the B/C/S and 50 in

 5     the English.

 6        Q.   And while that's loading, and just to clarify, you are right that

 7     there are separate tables based on the municipality of origin and the

 8     place of accommodation.  We are looking at 65 ter 5363.  And both reports

 9     from the 20th of March, 1992 and the 27th of March, 1992, have these

10     different tables within them, tables that are based on the regional

11     centre where the refugees registered and tables that are based on their

12     place of origin, but there are two separate reports, one from the 20th of

13     March and one from the 27th of March, and can you clarify why both are

14     included and if there is any difference?

15        A.   I think the difference that I explained just a while ago is the

16     only difference.  I am afraid that this is too small for me to see

17     anything.  The number of displaced persons.  If you could please zoom in

18     both pages, if possible, please.  The table from the 20th of March is

19     organised by the place of accommodation of those displaced persons in

20     Croatia, and it was generated by collecting data from social welfare

21     centres where those people were registered.  So this would be one table

22     dated the 20th of March.  It contains data on persons registered in

23     Croatia and contains data on persons who are accommodated in other

24     countries in accordance with reports that we used to receive from either

25     the UNHCR or from those third countries.

Page 5872

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And so this is table 2, and table 3 relates to the

 2     20th of March as well.  Table 4 is from the 27th of March.  And how did

 3     your office obtain the information from the 27th of March?

 4        A.   In the same manner.  Displaced persons were registered when they

 5     arrived at the local social welfare centre.  The ODPR had just been

 6     established and had not still established a network of field officers so

 7     what was used was the present network of social welfare centres.  There

 8     was one in each municipality in Croatia.  And they registered the people

 9     when they arrived and sent their reports, which they prepared on a weekly

10     basis, to the office in Zagreb.

11             In the meantime, regional offices for displaced persons and

12     refugees had started being established with welfare centres, and they

13     started to collate individual reports that they received from welfare

14     offices and consolidated them and sent them to the ODPR in Zagreb which

15     then manually collated them and keyed them into touch tables and reports

16     as you see.

17        Q.   Thank you.  I now want to --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question:  One of the things that I

19     missed in your report is a copy of the registration form.  It's quite

20     common doing this kind of registration that you add a copy of what was

21     registered because we find some of it in the report, but is there any

22     copy available of that registration form so that we know what was asked

23     from those who reported themselves?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I do have on my person forms

25     for registration from -- dating from 1991 and instructions how to fill in

Page 5873

 1     the form and samples of the forms used in 1994 and 1997.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Ms. Friedman, I would suggest that copies are

 3     made from those forms because we are now looking at the results of the

 4     registration, but we do not know exactly what was asked and what was not

 5     asked.  And I'm specifically also paying attention to this because as you

 6     may have noticed, there was some concern about what comes from where.

 7     For example, if sometimes certain language is used, one wonders whether

 8     any questions were put to those who registered in relation to what is

 9     assumed or established to be the case.  So therefore, I would suggest

10     that during the first break you provide the forms and the instructions

11     and that they will be copied, you'll get back the originals, so that the

12     parties know what exactly you registered and what you asked from those

13     persons who were registering.  Yes.  Please proceed.

14             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Your Honours, I can inform you that pursuant to a

15     request from the Defence, we did ask Ms. Radic to provide some forms and

16     she has provided several to us.  It was still not something I was going

17     to tender in my examination-in-chief but it's been provided to the

18     Defence and we have it in e-court.  We can return to it later.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I am a bit surprised that you left it to the Defence

20     because this is the kind of basic information you need to interpret the

21     outcome.  So therefore, I think it would have assisted the Chamber if you

22     would not have waited for the Defence to bring it up, but to inform the

23     Chamber as completely as possible.  But we'll see those forms after the

24     break.  Please proceed.

25             MS. FRIEDMAN:

Page 5874

 1        Q.   Now, I have a few clarifications about the information contained

 2     in your database.  What is the earliest information that's contained

 3     there?

 4        A.   The data that we have today in the database dates from 1994, as

 5     I've already explained.  The data in the first statistics reports were

 6     collated manually.  They were not based on the forms that were later to

 7     be used in registration.  In 1992 in April, the first registration of

 8     displaced persons was made, but the problem with the data was at the time

 9     not all data could be introduced into a single database.  And quite a lot

10     of data was missing.  For that reason, new registration was done in 1994

11     and from that point onwards, those data are used as data on displaced

12     persons and refugees by being updated daily.  So persons registering or

13     taken out of the database, changes in their personal statistics, changes

14     in place of accommodation or type of accommodation, any changes that may

15     affect that population are updated.

16        Q.   So since the information begins in 1994, does that mean that all

17     the data from people who had left their homes in 1991 but had returned

18     before 1994 is not included in the database?

19        A.   Yes, that's correct.  This is not to be found in that database.

20        Q.   And other than tables 1 through 5, which contain statistical data

21     from before the 1994 registration, was the database we are discussing the

22     one that was used to prepare the remainder of the tables?

23        A.   I am afraid you'll have to repeat which table is the same.  I did

24     not quite get the question.

25        Q.   The tables that are from 1992 were obviously not prepared from

Page 5875

 1     your database, and my question was whether the rest of the tables which

 2     you've included in your report were prepared based on this database?

 3        A.   Yes.  All the other tables are derived from the database, apart

 4     from the first one which is based on the population census.

 5        Q.   So those tables do not include people who had returned home

 6     before 1994?

 7        A.   That's correct.

 8        Q.   I would now like to discuss tables 7 and 8 in your report.

 9             MS. FRIEDMAN:  And if we could turn to table 7 which is at page

10     49 of the B/C/S and 75 of the English.  It would be sufficient, I think,

11     to show it in one language as the important information is either

12     numerical or place names.

13        Q.   Now, these tables set out the numbers of displaced persons per

14     municipality, but they provide different dates to show the numbers of

15     displaced persons as of certain time periods.

16             MS. FRIEDMAN:  I am sorry, let me just check the correct page

17     number.  Yes, that's correct.

18        Q.   And table 8 is simply an expanded version of this table; is that

19     correct?

20        A.   That's correct.  It contains individual municipalities and towns

21     listed therein, whereas this table is organised in counties, so

22     everything is broken down at the level of county.

23        Q.   And we can see how the different dates are set out and show

24     different waves of registration.

25             Ms. Radic, when was this table prepared?

Page 5876

 1        A.   This table was prepared later on in 2002, for the first time in

 2     2000 and later on in 2002.  And this particular dates from 2002.

 3        Q.   And who prepared the table?

 4        A.   My administration for displaced persons and refugees on the basis

 5     of our database.

 6        Q.   And what was the purpose for which it was prepared?

 7        A.   The purpose was to see the number of displaced persons in

 8     different periods and which can be considered peak times in terms of

 9     expulsions and this is why those dates were chosen, to show what we

10     called waves of displaced persons.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MS. FRIEDMAN:  And I would now like to look at table 9, which is

13     the national structure of displaced persons, and it's at page 80 in

14     English or 64 in B/C/S.

15        Q.   Is this organised by county or municipality, and was it -- sorry,

16     was it organised by the original counties or municipalities or the

17     current ones?

18        A.   This table is organised by present or current counties, but it's

19     based on original data.

20        Q.   And can it be compared then to table 1, the 1991 census analysis?

21        A.   Yes.  Yes, it can be compared because the first analysis was

22     drafted in this way.

23             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Okay.  And I wanted to note because of the

24     relevance to the case, for example, the greatest number of displaced

25     Croats is found in the Osijek Baranja county, that's 31.484; and the

Page 5877

 1     second largest displaced minority there is the Hungarians, and that is

 2     3.581, and that's also the greatest number of displaced ethnic

 3     Hungarians.  And a brief observation about the 1991 census and table 9

 4     and to show how they can be cross-referenced, in the 1991 census we also

 5     can find Osijek Baranja county and that it originally had 52.080

 6     non-Serbs.  And according to this table, table 9, the number of non-Serbs

 7     who were displaced is 36.079.

 8             And I now would tender this witness's expert report along with

 9     the attached tables which is 65 ter 5363 into evidence.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I've seen that the uploaded report is already the

11     one where the relevant pages are stricken out.  Any objections against?

12     Mr. Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P551, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  P551 is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed.

15             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And I have just one

16     exhibit to show to the witness and I would ask 65 ter 2966 be placed on

17     the monitor.

18        Q.   This is image files from a PowerPoint presentation about data on

19     displaced persons in Croatia.  Ms. Radic, have you had the opportunity to

20     look at this set of charts in the last few days?

21        A.   Yes, I have.

22        Q.   And did you recognise the data that was contained therein?

23        A.   It goes to data from our database which can be seen in the tables

24     that we saw yesterday on the basis of the 1994 and 1997 registration

25     drives.

Page 5878

 1        Q.   Okay.  In fact, it says on the title here that the source of the

 2     information is the office of displaced persons, returnees, and refugees,

 3     and I take it then that you can confirm that's the case?

 4        A.   Yes, that's correct.  That's correct.

 5             MS. FRIEDMAN:  I would ask to turn to page 6 of this exhibit.

 6     The purpose being for Your Honours to see it provides a different visual

 7     presentation of the same data and can prove useful.  And for that reason

 8     and since its based on the data contained in this witness's report, I

 9     would tender it as the next Prosecution exhibit.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just try to understand this.  Displaced

11     persons per county, is that where they used to have their residence

12     before they were displaced?  Is that how we have to understand this

13     table?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, these are places of residence

15     before these people in 1991 before they were expelled.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, before they were displaced, I take it.  You

17     often used the word expelled which needs a factual basis which you may

18     think does exist, I'm not saying it does not exist, but it's not

19     substantiated in your report, and to the extent an effort has been made

20     to substantiated it in the report, those portions are now taken out

21     because the sources are unclear, but most important that this is where

22     they used to live before they were displaced.  Thank you.  Any

23     objections?  Mr. Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P552, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  P552 is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed,

Page 5879

 1     Ms. Friedman.

 2             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you, Your Honours, that concludes my

 3     questions at this time.  I have just one more matter with is the relevant

 4     adjudicated facts that you ask that we identify.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MS. FRIEDMAN:  And they are from two decisions.  The first is the

 7     decision on the Prosecution's motion for judicial notice of adjudicated

 8     facts that's dated 25th of November, 2009.  And the facts are 391, 392 --

 9     actually the whole way through 401.  And the second is the decision on

10     the second Prosecution motion for judicial notice of adjudicated facts

11     dated 28th January 2010.  And that's facts number 207 through 213.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  That's now on the record.  If you have

13     no further questions, again I'm asking Mr. Petrovic whether you will be

14     the first or whether it will be Mr. Jordash.  You become more and more

15     aware of what it means to be the first or the second.  Mr. Petrovic, it

16     will be you.  Ms. Radic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Petrovic.

17     Mr. Petrovic is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Madam Radic.  Could you please

21     first explain -- you've explained where you are employed currently.  Do I

22     understand it correctly that you are employed within the ministry of the

23     government of the Republic of Croatia, did I get that right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Is there something which is defined as the official policy of the

Page 5880

 1     Republic of Croatia concerning the displaced persons and refugees, is

 2     there a document which lays down Croatian governments, official policy,

 3     and guide-lines in respect of this category?

 4        A.   I don't believe that there is a single document which defines

 5     official policy of a government, is defined through laws which govern

 6     certain areas.  This includes policies towards displaced persons and

 7     refugees.  They are defined by law.

 8        Q.   Which law defines the categories of persons which are the subject

 9     matter of your report?  Please do not overlap, please make a break

10     between my question and your answer.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. Radic, since you are speaking the same

12     language, could you please make a small pause between question and

13     answer, otherwise the interpreters will have difficulties in following

14     you.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Can you respond now.

17        A.   The basic law defining this issue is the law on displaced persons

18     and refugees from 1993.  Before that in 1991 there had been a decree on

19     DPs and refugees referred to in this report as well.

20        Q.   In the law you are referring to, how is the category of displaced

21     person defined, in the sense you use it in your report?

22        A.   A displaced person is defined as a person hailing from a

23     war-affected area of the Republic of Croatia, who in an organised fashion

24     or individually, fled to another area of the Republic of Croatia; whereas

25     a refugee, it is a person who fled from a war-affected area in Croatia,

Page 5881

 1     either individually or in an organised way through the then civilian

 2     assistance staffs or through the centre for social welfare, who

 3     eventually went abroad.  That is to say outside the borders of Croatia.

 4        Q.   The law you are referring to defining the two categories, does it

 5     refer to any causes, any reasons due to which one would be assigned the

 6     status of a displaced person or refugee?

 7        A.   There is one basic reason that someone came from a war-affected

 8     area, and such areas were declared by the Republic of CroatiaCroatia

 9     delegated this authority later on to the ODPR.

10        Q.   So all types of reasons pertaining to the war and the situation

11     as it existed in those parts of Croatia are sufficient for someone to be

12     assigned the status of a displaced person; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   If I understand correctly then, a displaced person can also be

15     somebody who between 1991 and 1995, because of better conditions of life

16     elsewhere left, say, Petrinja for Zagreb, would such a person also be a

17     displaced person under the definition?

18        A.   Well, the reasons may be different, but I don't know what better

19     life conditions you are referring to.  It's unclear.

20        Q.   Can we agree that in 1993, it was far easier to reside in Zagreb

21     than Petrinja, for example?

22        A.   What year?

23        Q.   Let's say 1993?

24        A.   I can't know that.  And at that time, be it Petrinja or Zagreb,

25     one would have a very difficult situation stating that these conditions

Page 5882

 1     were good anywhere.  The whole country was affected by the war and there

 2     was a shortage of everything.  No one left their home because at that

 3     time perhaps they could have fared better.

 4        Q.   Well, this brings up a number of questions then.  First of all,

 5     how can you know what reasons or what motives someone had to leave

 6     Petrinja for Zagreb and in that time?

 7        A.   Between 1992, after the Sarajevo truce agreement, until 1995, to

 8     other parts of Croatia, some additional 12.000 people arrived via

 9     UNPROFOR in order to arrive at the free territory in Croatia.  These

10     people were all Croats, basically, who were no longer able to remain

11     where they had been.  They were expelled.  If someone belonged to a

12     certain ethnic group, even if you tried to paint it through the prism of

13     conditions of life, one cannot look at it that way.  It's not a mere

14     coincidence.  There's far too many of the people of a single ethnic

15     origin.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, have I understood your point well that

17     you want to draw the attention of the Chamber to the fact that the

18     registration did not provide the motives and that you pointed at the

19     possibility that people may have decided for reasons unknown to move to

20     the place where they actually then were registered.  Is that what you

21     wanted to draw our attention to?

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  That point is made.  Please proceed.

24             MS. MARCUS:  It seems that the Court Reporter has lost LiveNote,

25     Your Honour.

Page 5883

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]  Your Honour, this may even be a

 2     good time for the break.  It would have been anyway in two minutes' time,

 3     perhaps that's the solution.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, everything we are now saying is not recorded,

 5     but everything seems to function again.  Perhaps I put on the record what

 6     I just said to you, Mr. Petrovic, that whether I had understood you well

 7     that the point you would like to make is that the motives of those who

 8     moved to the place where they finally registered were not recorded and

 9     therefore unknown and may have been different from what is -- may be

10     assumed that they were expelled or they had to leave from these

11     war-affected areas and that the motives may have been different.  That

12     point is understood and then I invited you to proceed.  Then when the

13     system was not functioning well, you suggested we take a break.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we take a break, as far as timing is

16     concerned, Mr. Petrovic, could you inform us as to how much time you

17     would think you would need?

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, an hour at the most.

19     It is likely that I will need even less because your clarification made a

20     number of things redundant in terms of examination and it is possible

21     that I will needless than an hour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, my clarification was exclusively on whether I

23     understood the point you would like to make well, so I didn't clarify any

24     factual matter, but what you, of course, when putting questions to an

25     expert witness to some extent it's also for a Chamber to understand what

Page 5884

 1     kind of matter you would like to raise in those questions and most --

 2     what I'd clarified is simply that what I understood to be the matter you

 3     wanted to raise and that was clear.  Is that -- I didn't clarify anything

 4     else apart from our understanding of what we thought you were doing.

 5             Mr. Jordash, any.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  30 minutes at most, I think.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  30 minutes at most, which gives us a good

 8     expectation that we would finish the testimony of this witness today.  I

 9     have to announce to the parties that there's a fair chance that for

10     urgent reasons, I will not be able to sit during the remainder of this

11     day, and on the basis of the brief discussions I had with my colleagues,

12     I would expect that they will decide that it would be in the interest of

13     justice to continue to hear the case in my absence, but you will learn

14     about this all after the break.

15             We take a break and we'll resume at 4.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 3.31 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.

18             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] The court is back in session for

19     the transcript, please note down that this Chamber will hear this case

20     according to Rule 15 bis in the absence of Judge Orie.

21             Mr. Petrovic, you have the floor.

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Could we

23     please have 1D00268 in e-court.

24        Q.   Ms. Radic, have a look at the document, please, and tell us what

25     it is.

Page 5885

 1        A.   This is a form used to register displaced persons, refugees, and

 2     returnees.  It was used in 1994.

 3        Q.   Let's look at the document.  In it is there anywhere a box in

 4     which the reasons for becoming a displaced person or refugee should be

 5     entered?

 6        A.   On this document, there is no mention made of any reasons, but

 7     the place of residence of the person is clearly established.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I seek to tender this

10     document as Defence exhibit.

11             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Any objections?

12             MS. FRIEDMAN:  No objections, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well.  This document will be

14     given a number, please, Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D74, Your Honours.

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  Next

17     could we please have 65 ter document 1D00269.

18        Q.   Ms. Radic, tell us what sort of document is the one on the

19     left-hand side of the screen?

20        A.   This is a registration form used for displaced persons used

21     during pre-registration in 1997 concerning the area of the Croatian

22     Danubian region, including two counties, Vukovar Srijem and

23     Osijek Baranja.

24        Q.   Ms. Radic, thank you.  How about this document used in 1997, is

25     there such a box which would tell us anything about the reasons for

Page 5886

 1     becoming a displaced person or a refugee?

 2        A.   There's no direct query about any reasons or motives, but again

 3     we have the place of residence clearly established.

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to seek

 5     to tender this document into evidence as well.

 6             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Any objections?

 7             MS. FRIEDMAN:  No objections, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Mr. Jordash?

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, just to indicate to the Court that the

10     translation on the right is a Defence translation, we received a document

11     only two days ago, so perhaps it could be MFI'd until an official

12     translation can be provided.

13             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you, I also had the feeling

14     that it was not a final translation.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  I agree with my learned

16     friend's suggestion that it be marked for identification pending

17     translation.

18             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well.  This document will be

19     admitted into evidence with an MFI number.  Registrar, please.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D75 marked for

21     identification, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Before you proceed, as for the

23     previous document, was that an official translation or was it an

24     unrevised or last-minute translation?

25             MS. FRIEDMAN:  The first was an official translation.

Page 5887

 1             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             Mr. Petrovic.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Ms. Radic, the process of registration of displaced persons as

 5     part of your ministry was carried out based on the forms we have just

 6     seen; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Such filled-out forms provide no details about the reasons why

 9     somebody was expelled from their previous address?

10        A.   If you put it that way, it is correct, but I told you what the

11     legal definition of a displaced person was.

12        Q.   Please only answer my question.  Based on what one can see in the

13     forms, there is no piece of information referring to any reasons; is that

14     so or is it not so?

15        A.   There is no particular question referring to any reasons, but

16     there is a place of residence required, and per se it is the reason.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Based on what were you able to conclude anything

18     about the reasons for someone to leave place 1 and go to place 2?  Do you

19     have any factual basis to draw any conclusions in that regard?

20        A.   Not looking only at the registration form, but there are other

21     documents testifying to that.

22        Q.   Thank you.  So your register is based solely on the data provided

23     by these -- or provided in these forms?

24        A.   Our database does not only contain personal information, it also

25     contains information about the areas affected by the war.

Page 5888

 1        Q.   Ms. Radic, you were registering people.  Did you register them as

 2     areas or individuals?

 3        A.   We registered them as individuals, but the basic element to

 4     define their status was the area they had fled from, their place of

 5     residence so we needed an additional database, a separate database for

 6     that.

 7        Q.   So if there was somebody who had resided in Republika Srpska

 8     Krajina and the information testifying to the fact that that person no

 9     longer resides there, save for that information, you have nothing else,

10     do you?

11        A.   We also had --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  We only had this information.  We

14     did not have personal information about the reason they left.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   That's all I wanted to hear.  So it was all based on your

17     impressions, it was not based on any factual bases that you arrived at by

18     registering these displaced persons and refugees?

19        A.   That is not true.

20        Q.   Do you have any other sources of information confirming why

21     someone was expelled?  If so, please share them with us.

22        A.   As stated already in the report, and you should have read it

23     yourself, the decree on displaced persons and refugees in 1991 defined a

24     person as such as leaving a war-affected area.  Such areas were

25     proclaimed by the government of the Republic of Croatia, and there is a

Page 5889

 1     list in existence about such war-affect areas.

 2        Q.   If I understand you well, the government of Croatia made a list

 3     of areas, somebody had their place of residence in those areas and

 4     automatically they became displaced persons?

 5        A.   That person needed to prove they originated from that area and

 6     then they could be accorded displaced person status and provided with a

 7     displaced person card and this was all checked when they were registered.

 8        Q.   And whether they left because they no longer liked being there or

 9     for any other reason, that's something you don't know about?

10        A.   It was a demographic phenomenon.  If there is an area in a state

11     basically deserted of all non-Serb population, that tells you something.

12     That's why we included census data from 1991 as well as lists of

13     displaced persons from those same areas.

14        Q.   Thank you very much.  That is clear.  In your report concerning

15     the number of displaced persons, you also included the population from

16     the so-called border-free areas of the Republic of Croatia.  How could

17     you tell apart those displaced persons who were from the border areas

18     from those who were not?  And how could you say how many of them came

19     from such border areas which were controlled by Zagreb authorities as

20     opposed to those in the RSK?

21        A.   If you were familiar with any UN resolutions, such areas which

22     were outside the constitutional system of Croatia between 1995, or in the

23     case of the Danubian region until 1998 where UNPROFOR was, the so-called

24     UNPA areas were established controlled by UNPROFOR.  There were clear

25     demarcation lines in existence and those areas comprised four UNPA areas

Page 5890

 1     and pink zones.  Such areas exist.  They are clearly delineated, one

 2     settlement at that time.

 3        Q.   Maybe my question was unclear or maybe you misunderstood me.  Out

 4     of all the figures that you present in your report, what is the number of

 5     those who are in government-controlled territory in the marginal or

 6     border areas, and how many are those who were not from those areas?  Do

 7     you distinguish between those two categories of people?

 8        A.   Report enumerates 220.000 people from such areas, a smaller

 9     number of them are from the border areas.  If we were to break down this

10     figure, you could get to the number.  For instance, the case of Novska

11     which before the war used to have 11.000 inhabitants, and is represented

12     marginally in the report because just a small portion of the Novska were

13     occupied during the war, two or three villages from within the area of

14     the municipality.  What registration encompassed under those persons who

15     were from those villages or settlements.

16        Q.   Let's take a look at page 11 in your report in the B/C/S.  I'll

17     try to find the English equivalent.  Page 17 in English.  The first full

18     paragraph in English it is stated herein as follows:  The very first

19     precise data -- if my learned friend could give me the exhibit number for

20     the expert report, I apologise, I have not jotted it down.  The witness's

21     expert report?

22             MS. FRIEDMAN:  P551.

23             MR. PETROVIC:  551, yes, thank you.  [Interpretation] So it would

24     be P551, page 17 in English and 11 in Serbian, or rather, Croatian.

25        Q.   I'm going to read it out to you, maybe you can find that.  Are

Page 5891

 1     you looking at the report or something else?  Could you please turn to

 2     page 11.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   I quote:

 5             "247.278 expelled persons were issued with personal

 6     expelled-persons card.  The aforementioned number of expelled person

 7     includes the population from the bordering free territory of the Republic

 8     of Croatia driven out of their homes due to the lasting shelling of the

 9     settlements and the towns next to the separation line."

10             Out of this figure, how many were from the border line areas?

11        A.   30.000, approximately 30.000, and this is the reason why they

12     have not been included in the statistics, in the report.  Therein you can

13     find only persons, who had place of residence in the settlements who

14     were -- which were outside of the constitutional order of the Republic of

15     Croatia between 1991 and 1995 or in the Danubian area 1998.  Most of

16     those people, or, most of those 30.000 returned to their homes between

17     1992 and 1995 on the basis of decisions of the then ODPR that certain

18     areas are no longer -- were affected.

19        Q.   You are not answering my question.  I've asked you about the

20     figure --

21             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] It may be very interesting but we

22     are missing translation.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

24        Q.   My question to you, Madam Radic, is the figure.  Do you know the

25     exact number, you said approximately 30.000, you don't know then?

Page 5892

 1        A.   You take the figure of 220.000 people from the occupied areas and

 2     you can see them in the tables in the other reports.  Maybe table number

 3     7, if I'm not mistaken, 8, 9.  Those figures are contained therein, very

 4     clearly.

 5        Q.   Fine, thank you.  Now, on the same page, the next paragraph or

 6     two paragraphs down, the number of -- the exact number of persons who

 7     fled abroad was difficult to ascertain.  How did you make those estimates

 8     of those refugees abroad?

 9        A.   On the basis of data from the UNHCR and on the basis of reports

10     of those countries which accommodated those refugees, the same method is

11     used by the UNHCR on the basis of the official data of those countries

12     housing the refugees.

13        Q.   For instance, the UNHCR would give you an approximate figure,

14     30.000 or 50.000 or so, or do they give you precise data?

15        A.   Well, this depends on the country providing information.  Some

16     countries gave precise information, and some did not possess such

17     figures.

18        Q.   Who does the estimate, the final estimate of the number of those

19     refugees who left Croatia?

20        A.   These are the data from the UNHCR.  There is a bulletin or

21     information notes from the UNHCR which you can consult.  It used to be

22     published at the time.  And therein you can see the figures which are

23     contained in my report.

24        Q.   Maybe I failed to read thoroughly your analysis, but I failed to

25     see that you make reference to it.

Page 5893

 1        A.   You've got UNHCR data and the tables show clearly that some of

 2     the data have been taken from the UNHCR.

 3        Q.   Is there a reference in your expert reports mentioning the UNHCR?

 4     Don't you go telling me to consult this or that, is there a place in your

 5     report where you make reference to the UNHCR or should I take your word

 6     for it?

 7        A.   There's no reference to information note of the UNHCR but I do

 8     mention some data some from UNHCR.

 9        Q.   Could you please specify, pin-point where this is?

10        A.   I believe tables 2, 3, maybe some others, I don't have them

11     before me to check.

12        Q.   I'm not asking you generally about data, I'm asking you about

13     this estimate in the paragraph that I highlighted.  You have your report

14     before you, could you please indicate where I can find those -- this data

15     in your tables?

16             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Ms. Friedman.

17             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Your Honour, we heard from the witness earlier

18     that she doesn't have the tables before her.  She has her report but not

19     the tables.  I do have an extra copy, perhaps I could hand that to her so

20     that she can have it if she needs to consult it.

21             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] This seems to be a very good idea,

22     yes.

23             I would like you to make a pause between your question and the

24     answer of the witness so that the interpreters can translate what is

25     being said in the courtroom.

Page 5894

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I'll do my best.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here you can see in table 3, the

 3     report on the number of registered DPs and refugees from the ODPR of the

 4     government of Croatia dated 20th March, 1992, the number of refugees

 5     registered in other republics of former Yugoslavia, pursuant to the data

 6     coming from the UNHCR, United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees.

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Madam Radic, I see that.  But when an experts report is being

 9     prepared, you must make a reference to that.  You cannot just say UNHCR,

10     they've got millions of pages of material, how can I find what I'm

11     looking for when there's no reference?

12        A.   Well, these are the official data from that time.  If you do not

13     trust the data contained herein, you could really go to the UNHCR's web

14     page.  They are quite transparent.  All the reports are archived on their

15     web pages.  You can double-check, if you like.

16        Q.   Madam Radic, why you did not make the reference of that report,

17     this would be a minimum, when we prepare a report which pretends to be an

18     expert report?

19        A.   Sir, I'm discussing these table which are the original tables

20     from that period dating from 1992.  You cannot expect somebody who was

21     busy trying to find the food and accommodation for those people back in

22     1992 to think about referencing each piece of information when drawing

23     the tables and quoting the sources.

24        Q.   Madam Radic, I did not expect this to happen in 1992, but I did

25     in 2008 because, if I'm not mistaken, this report was drafted in 2008 but

Page 5895

 1     you did not include the references?

 2        A.   I did not include the references because I was not advised that I

 3     should reference everything that I wrote in my report.  And the document

 4     we are discussing is the original document from 1992.

 5        Q.   Madam Radic, I read your reports carefully and I found a total of

 6     five references or a grand total -- and a grand total of four out of

 7     those five reference laws and nothing else, so there is not a single

 8     footnote explaining this can be found in this or that document.  Is this

 9     your methodological approach or simply sloppiness?

10        A.   No, this is not a mission [as interpreted], sir.  Data from the

11     ODPR of the Republic of Croatia are official data on DPs and refugees in

12     the Republic of Croatia.  And the data contained here are used as

13     reference for all other documents, so -- and our work is based on the law

14     and this is why I referenced laws and nothing else.

15        Q.   Madam Radic, where can I find the sources of all this?  I could

16     address my request to the government of the Republic of Croatia, is this

17     the only way?

18        A.   Yes, you would address your requests to this administration which

19     is the legal successor of the ODPR and you would be given the data

20     contained herein from our database.  You would have to be specific about

21     what you are interested in.

22        Q.   So I cannot double-check anything that's contained herein and

23     just trust your administration and your office; is that so?

24        A.   Whatever you can find here.

25             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Proceed.

Page 5896

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whatever you can find here in this

 2     report are the official coming from the Republic of Croatia.  If you go

 3     to the web page, you will find references in other documents to this

 4     database when it comes to DPs and refugees.  Yes, they are the official

 5     data of the Republic of Croatia, they are contained in our database, they

 6     are stored in individual files of each person who, at any point, was

 7     registered in Croatia as a DP or refugee and each person signed the forms

 8     that we discussed a couple of minutes ago.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   So, Madam Radic, to be able to understand what is written here

11     and to double-check what is written here, I should research and rather

12     than rely on what you provided in your report?

13        A.   This report contains everything that is contained in the official

14     data of the Republic of Croatia, nothing more or nothing less.

15        Q.   Not at a single point can I find in which document, which file I

16     can find the data.  I'm supposed to research the whole thing back from

17     1991 onwards to make sure that what is written in the report is correct

18     or not?

19        A.   You can ask and request official documents, you can do so, and

20     you will be given them and out of the database you can get excerpts.  If

21     you want to double-check the database, then you can go deeper and check

22     the personnel file -- the personal files of each person who was

23     registered as a DP or refugee in that database.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Please take a look in the same document, page 14 in

25     B/C/S and in English that would be 22.  Page 22.  Please take a look at

Page 5897

 1     the last paragraph in B/C/S.  I have just one question concerning this.

 2     This 125.000 returnees, have they been included in any of the

 3     previously-mentioned figure, 220.000 DPs and an X number of refugees?

 4        A.   No.

 5             MR. PETROVIC:  [Interpretation] The next page, please.  Page 23

 6     in English.  And the next page in the B/C/S as well.

 7        Q.   Just one question more here concerning the status of DP returnee

 8     and refugee, "We keep the following records in the central database," as

 9     I quote, and there's a list of them.  Is there any item or entry

10     concerning the causes for being displaced?

11        A.   As I've stated earlier, there are data on the place of residence,

12     not causes of expulsion, but the place of residence is connected to the

13     cause for expulsion.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Let's take a look at page 17 in

16     B/C/S and 26 in English.

17        Q.   Second paragraph in English, the last paragraph in English, and

18     the second paragraph under the heading 10 which starts with "First

19     expulsions" and it's stated here:

20             "On the 1st of August, 1991, the ministry of labour and social

21     welfare had in its register 9.638 expelled persons, but the actual number

22     is estimated to be around 30.000."

23             On the basis of what data did you make this estimate of 30.000?

24        A.   These are the official data of the then ministry of labour and

25     social welfare which they collected from their social welfare centres as

Page 5898

 1     I've already explained.  When the first expulsions of persons occurred,

 2     we had not had in place a system of registration.  This was not the first

 3     concern.  The first concern was to accommodate those expelled persons,

 4     and the ministry, the then competent ministry collected this kind of

 5     information from their local social welfare centres and they made this

 6     estimate.  This is their official document.

 7        Q.   Now, if I were to come to your office and seek to see those

 8     documents, would I be able to see individual entries, individual names,

 9     vital statistics for all those 30.000?

10        A.   You wouldn't find that in our office.  You would find that in the

11     competent social welfare centres at the local level which functioned in

12     1991.  Those first records have been made archival materials of the

13     Republic of Croatia and we are slowly collecting those documents,

14     archival documents from the field but we weren't completed this task.

15        Q.   You have not completed this task even after 20 years after it

16     started?

17        A.   Well, this is a huge work.  We've collected parts of the archives

18     of the social welfare centres at the local level but some documents are

19     still there.

20        Q.   Have a look at the fourth paragraph in the B/C/S, which is page

21     27 in the English.  It says 320.000 Croatian citizens had to leave their

22     homes, out of which 66.000 went to Serbia.  Can you tell us who those

23     people were?

24        A.   I have no information about who they were.

25        Q.   Do you have any knowledge about their ethnicity?

Page 5899

 1        A.   I don't have that either.  We only have the figure of how many

 2     left.  That's it.

 3        Q.   But you must have certain knowledge of the reasons why they left?

 4        A.   I don't.  We only have the statistics here.

 5        Q.   So out of that figure, 157 were accommodated in Croatia.  Do you

 6     know why they had fled?

 7        A.   In that sentence, there's no mention made of any reasons.  The

 8     only thing that is said is that the minister of social welfare and labour

 9     on the 21st of November, stated that there were that many Croatian

10     citizens who were forced to leave their homes.  There's no other

11     assertion made.

12        Q.   I'm asking you whether you have any knowledge.  I can read this

13     for myself.

14        A.   I'm trying to tell you.  During the relevant period of time, the

15     320.000 inhabitants fled due to reasons connected with the war.

16        Q.   Thank you.  So you have no knowledge about those who were

17     accommodated in Croatia or those who went to Serbia, you don't know why?

18        A.   I do not assert that I don't know why, I only reflected on the

19     sentence.  They fled because of the war, from the war-affected areas in

20     Croatia.

21        Q.   Why did the 66.000 go to Serbia?

22        A.   Also because of the war.

23        Q.   Do you know from which areas?

24        A.   I don't.

25        Q.   Do you know anything about how many Serb citizens from Croatia

Page 5900

 1     between 1991 and 1995 fled or were expelled from the territory of

 2     Croatia?

 3        A.   I do have certain information about that, but there's no precise

 4     figure as to how many there were.  There was an estimate of 300.000, out

 5     of which 126.000 returned.  And they were registered upon their return

 6     with the ODPR.

 7        Q.   Please answer my questions only, otherwise I won't be able to

 8     keep the promise to Their Honours in terms of time.  I'm asking you about

 9     a figure and you are telling me what was done for those people.

10             So there were 300.000 citizens of Serb ethnicity who fled

11     Croatia.

12        A.   That's an estimate.

13        Q.   According to the census from 1991, can you tell us how many Serbs

14     lived in Croatia?

15        A.   Around 12 per cent.

16        Q.   Be so kind as to tell us what the figure is?

17        A.   I think it is around 560.000, if I'm not mistaken.

18        Q.   So over 50 per cent of all Serbs fled or were expelled from

19     Croatia between 1991 and 1995; correct?

20        A.   Yes, in that period.  Yes, until 1995.

21        Q.   Thank you.  The figure you used based on the 1994 census, the

22     figure of 2200, 380, what is that in terms of percentage out of the total

23     population of Croatia?

24        A.   Well, I don't have any census data here.

25        Q.   Let's try to make a calculation then, approximately.  How many

Page 5901

 1     Croats --

 2             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Ms. Friedman.

 3             MS. FRIEDMAN:  I think, I object.  Defence counsel is asking

 4     unfair questions of the witness without the data in front of her, nor a

 5     calculator should she be asked to conclude on statistics.

 6             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Maybe you could give the witness

 7     the basis that you are using to ask your questions.

 8             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I will do so immediately,

 9     Your Honour.  Please bear with me.  I want to locate the table.  I wanted

10     to see, although I am surprised to see it's a problem, because it is part

11     of the report.  The 1991 census, we saw it a moment ago.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I found the part you are

13     referring to.  However, there is a total number of citizens in Croatia

14     referred to here, and it is stated how many of them were Croats, Serbs,

15     and others.

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Be so kind as to read to us.  In 1991, how many Croats lived in

18     Croatia?

19        A.   78.1 per cent.

20        Q.   What is the figure?

21        A.   I don't have it here.  I would have to calculate it.

22        Q.   We'll try to do so.

23        A.   There's only an absolute figure here pertaining to the

24     war-affected areas, this report does not cover the whole of the Republic

25     of Croatia.

Page 5902

 1        Q.   You as someone who deals in demographics, can you tell us how

 2     many citizens of Croatia were Croats in 1991?

 3        A.   My area does not fall within the entire field of demography, but

 4     and the narrow field of displaced persons, refugees in war-affected

 5     areas.

 6        Q.   So you cannot tell us how many Croats there were in Croatia in

 7     1991?

 8        A.   I don't have the total figure.  Just like you, I can look at the

 9     numbers of the 1991 census to arrive at that.

10        Q.   Although in a number of places in your report you mentioned

11     assessments and assumptions, you cannot tell us how many Croats there

12     were in Croatia in 1991?

13        A.   You do the calculation.  87.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  78.1.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This report deals with displaced

16     persons in the war-affected areas of Croatia.  Not the whole of the

17     country.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   So, in 1991 if there were 3 and a half million Croats out of

20     which 220.000 were expelled, what is the percentage?

21        A.   Well, you do your math.

22        Q.   Thank you, I will.  Just a few more questions, Ms. Radic.  Do you

23     have any records of how many Croatian citizens were expelled after

24     Operations Flash and Storm?

25        A.   Given that most of those people left Croatia, there is no

Page 5903

 1     precise -- there are no precise figures.  We have precise information

 2     about those figures registered in the Croatian Danubian region in 1997.

 3     Between April 1997 and April 1998.

 4        Q.   Ms. Radic, Your Honour, I believe my question was clear.  I would

 5     kindly ask that my question be answered, if possible.  I don't think it

 6     was confusing.  My question is, how many people were driven out after

 7     Operations Flash and Storm, do you or do you not know that?  Do you have

 8     records of that?

 9        A.   We don't.

10        Q.   Tell us why not?

11        A.   How could we keep any records when people were not in Croatia?

12        Q.   Were these Croatian citizens?

13        A.   Most of them were, yes.

14        Q.   Under your legal definition, did they fall in the displaced

15     persons category?

16        A.   According to the legal definition I have explained, most of them

17     became refugees because they went abroad.

18        Q.   Do you know the reasons for which they left Croatia?

19        A.   No.  I think this is a completely separate issue from those

20     discussed here.  We need to go into something that amounts to opinions

21     now.

22             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Mr. Petrovic, I believe that you

23     have put this question to the witness at several instances and Ms. Radic

24     has said that she was not in a position to answer this question.  Also, I

25     would like to point out that when you put this question and you said

Page 5904

 1     after the Operation Storm, you were in a way answering this question as

 2     well as putting the question to the witness, and that the reasons seemed

 3     to be quite obvious, even if they are not in the figures.

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I

 5     understand your remark.  Just one more question.

 6        Q.   The area discussed here, was it also affected by the war?  The

 7     areas where Operations Storm and Flash took place?

 8        A.   Yes, those areas were also defined as UNPA areas and areas of

 9     special state concern.  These are all the same areas in question.

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I have no

11     further questions.

12             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             Mr. Jordash, you have the floor.

14             MR. JORDASH:  May I just take brief instructions, Your Honour,

15     please.

16                           [Defence counsel and Accused Stanisic confer]

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Jordash.

19             MR. JORDASH:  No questions.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well.  Ms. Friedman, any

21     redirect?

22             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23                           Re-examination by Ms. Friedman:

24        Q.   Just now, Ms. Radic, you were asked by Mr. Petrovic whether you

25     had figures on the Serbs that left Croatia, and your answer was, and I

Page 5905

 1     quote:

 2             "How could we keep any records when people were not in Croatia."

 3             And then you began to explain that you did register when they

 4     returned.  And so could you clarify, please, in 1997 whether Serbs were

 5     entitled to the same returnee status that Croats were entitled to?

 6        A.   Precisely.  We kept records of those Serbs who returned to the

 7     Republic of Croatia.  We used the same forms shown here in order to take

 8     their statements and keep the statistics.  In 1997, in addition to those

 9     who returned to Croatia, we also registered those who were accommodated

10     in the Croatian Danubian region during UNPA administration.  This was the

11     UN transitional administration which was concluded on the 15th of

12     January, 1998.

13             We registered them then.  There were 31.000 people accommodated

14     in the Croatian Danubian region and another 4 and a half thousand persons

15     who came from Serbia and had themselves registered in the Croatian

16     Danubian region in order to be able to go back to their homes.  We used

17     the very same form, the same method as we did when registering DPs and

18     refugees in Croatia.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MS. FRIEDMAN:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23                           Questioned by the Court:

24             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I just have one question to put to

25     you, Ms. Radic.

Page 5906

 1             I was wondering about the registration form for displaced persons

 2     or refugees.  I was wondering whether they were filled in on a voluntary

 3     basis, how did it work?  If someone was moved to another region were they

 4     freely filling in this form?  Did they have to register themselves or

 5     could they just live with members of the family without anybody knowing

 6     about them having moved from one region to another?

 7        A.   No one was under any obligation to be registered, but most of the

 8     people did.  Of course, there are always exceptions and people did so for

 9     their personal reasons.  But most people did have themselves registered

10     for one single reason, they had no place to be accommodated or receive

11     food otherwise.  They had been left without property and source of

12     income.  One of the basic reasons for registering was the economic one.

13     They were left without anything overnight, hence they needed

14     accommodation and food, which, in this case, was provided by the state.

15     For the state to be able to do so, records had to be kept about those

16     people.  All people who had themselves registered in that way, were put

17     in the same database that was used to keep records of allowances given to

18     people for private accommodation and how many of them were in organised

19     accommodation facilities.

20             You can see in the tables.  For example in 1993, 120.000 people

21     were housed in organised accommodation facilities in displaced persons

22     settlements, hotels, and other facilities of that type.  Out of that

23     figure, 85.000 were displaced persons.  In order to keep files and

24     registers of those people, we knew -- we had to know the precise numbers.

25     People who were able to cope in other ways by finding accommodation with

Page 5907

 1     friends and relatives were under no obligation to have themselves

 2     registered.  However, most people did because otherwise they had no other

 3     source of income.  The only income was to receive an allowance from the

 4     state and accommodation as well as food.  When you are a refugee or

 5     displaced person, you have nothing.

 6             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  This is very

 7     [indiscernible].

 8             Yes, Mr. Petrovic.  I believe you have another question.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Just two brief questions by your

10     leave.

11                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Ms. Radic, what is the percentage of the Serbs

13     who had fled Croatia who returned until the present day?

14        A.   I told you the figure, 126.000.  That's the official information

15     from the same data.  That's the latest piece of information we have.

16     It's very difficult to compare though because the census was done in

17     2001, I don't have official information here, maybe it's somewhere in my

18     notes, but after that another 60.000 Serbs returned and had themselves

19     registered upon return to Croatia.  So we are now awaiting the next

20     census next year to be able to tell you what the precise number of those

21     living in Croatia today is.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Another brief question:  What was the percentage of

23     Serbs, according to the census of 2001, lived in Croatia?

24        A.   The percentage was 4 and a half per cent.

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I have

Page 5908

 1     no further questions.

 2             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  I would like

 3     to know whether additional questions have created some further questions

 4     to be put to the witness?  Apparently not.  So, Ms. Radic, thank you very

 5     much for coming to The Hague to present your report and to answer the

 6     questions put by the parties and I wish you a very safe trip back home.

 7             The trial stands adjourned and we will resume our hearing until

 8     Monday, 2.15.

 9                           [The witness withdrew]

10                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.57 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 21st day of June,

12                           2010, at 2.15 p.m.