100901ED

Page 6670

1 to reconsider our decision on P53.

2 May the witness be brought into the courtroom. We had a late

3 start because of the late finish of the Gotovina case this morning which

4 was caused again by a technical problem which made it impossible to use

5 LiveNote which lasted for one hour so that we could start only at 10.00

6 this morning.

7 [The witness takes the stand]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Kovacevic. Can you hear me in a

9 language you understand?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kovacevic, I'd like to remind you that you are

12 still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of

13 your testimony and last - I think it was, last Friday last week, that you

14 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 Mr. Jordash will now continue his -- it's Mr. -- I am sorry,

16 Mr. Bakrac will now continue his cross-examination.

17 Mr. Bakrac, please proceed.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Good afternoon to everyone in the courtroom.

20 WITNESS: MILOMIR KOVACEVIC [Resumed]

21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac: [Continued]

23 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, witness. If you recall, we

24 stopped last week discussing Special Police Units, PJPs, and you said

25 that in July of 1991 you became a member of the PJP brigade Belgrade; is

Page 6671

1 that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. This was a short answer, but I'm sure lengthier ones will follow,

4 so please make sure to pause.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we call up 2D216, please. This

6 is 65 ter 2D216?

7 Q. Do you see the document in front of you, witness?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Are you familiar with the document? Have you seen it before?

10 A. I haven't seen the document. I didn't have an opportunity to

11 save for the fact that I received an order from the police brigade that I

12 was a member of.

13 Q. When you look at this decision, is it a decision setting up the

14 unit that you were a member of as of July of 1991?

15 A. Well, the PJP was part of a police brigade and was set up in July

16 1991.

17 Q. Sir, please look at item 2, para 2, and read it for us slowly?

18 A. "Tasks and duties of special --"

19 Q. No, paragraph 2 of item 2.

20 A. "Placing in the state of preparedness, gathering and engaging

21 PJM, and carrying out duties from para 1 of this item shall be done upon

22 orders from the minister and" --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Can the counsel please pause since the

24 interpreter has to translate the text on the screen.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please pause and also give the interpreter

Page 6672

1 some time to translate what she sees.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] My apologies to the interpreters.

3 I will be mindful of it. I don't know if it's been fully translated.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter continues: "... and when approved

5 by the minister also on orders from the chief of the public security

6 department."

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. So can you please reread para 2 slowly.

9 A. "Bringing into readiness, mobilising and engaging the Special

10 Police Unit, and performing tasks defined in paragraph 1 of this item

11 shall be done on orders from the minister and when approved by the

12 minister, as well as on orders from the chief of the public security

13 department."

14 Q. Pursuant to this decision, it can clearly be seen that your unit,

15 your brigade that is, was within the purview of public security and

16 directly subordinated to the chief of the public security department; is

17 that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Will you agree with me, since all of us can read for ourselves

20 and to expedite the matter, when you look at item 3 that it says:

21 "Professional education, training, and maintenance of the

22 necessary level of professional and psychophysical preparedness of

23 Special Police members (hereinafter training) shall be carried out in

24 accordance with a programme adopted by the chief of the public security

25 department, and equipment shall be carried out as per the material

Page 6673

1 establishment which is attached to this decision and is an integral part

2 of it."

3 Do you agree with me that education, training, and provisions lay

4 within the purview of the chief of the public security department?

5 A. Yes, I agree.

6 Q. Witness, last week when we started your examination you said that

7 out in the field you received orders from Radovan Stojicic, Badza?

8 A. When we left to Western Srem out in the field, we were part of

9 the territorial units of Western Srem, and the commander of that unit was

10 Radovan Stojicic, Badza.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.

12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before we get too far from this

13 document, Mr. Bakrac suggests that we all can read the document, but of

14 course we can only do that if it is in evidence. The Prosecution would

15 not object to the admission of this if Mr. Bakrac seeks to tender it.

16 I'm not sure if that was an omission on his part.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wanted to put one

18 question to the witness, and then I wanted to turn to the end of the

19 document and then ask that it be tendered. Mr. Groome was hasty in all

20 due respect, but I do have another question for the witness before I

21 finish with the document.

22 Q. I wanted to ask the witness as follows: Do you know which role

23 Radovan Stojicic, Badza held in the MUP of Serbia in 1991 and then in

24 1992?

25 A. I don't know which function he held in the MUP of Serbia in 1991.

Page 6674

1 The only thing I know is that in 1991 and 1992 when we were in Western

2 Srem that he was the commander of the territorial unit of Eastern and

3 Western Srem.

4 Q. In your statement numbering 37 pages, you provided a variety of

5 information. Is it possible that you do not know that Radovan Stojicic,

6 Badza was as of 1992 head of the public security department, and then

7 subsequently assistant, i.e., or rather deputy minister of the interior

8 of Serbia?

9 A. I know that in 1992 he became head of the public security

10 department, but in 1991 he was at the head of the Territorial Defence

11 unit of Western Srem.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we turn to page 2 of the

13 document and scroll down to the very bottom.

14 Q. On the right-hand side who signed the document, can you tell us?

15 A. It was signed by the late minister Zoran Sokolovic.

16 Q. And can you look for the date, it's on the left-hand side. When

17 was it that the Special Police Unit was set up?

18 A. On the 1st of August, 1993.

19 Q. Can you explain to me then how was it possible for you to become

20 a member of a unit in 1991 which had not yet been formed?

21 A. Well, it was formed in the 3rd Battalion in 1991. It had 1st and

22 2nd Company belonging to it, and they were called Special Police Units,

23 they were subsequently deployed to Eastern Baranja and Western Srem.

24 Q. Do you know pursuant to which decision this was?

25 A. I don't know what the decision was. I only know that the

Page 6675

1 commander of our battalion informed us of the inception of the unit and

2 that we would be deployed to Eastern and Western Srem.

3 Q. Who was the commander of the unit at the time in July of 1992, as

4 you put it?

5 A. The commander of the unit was Mr. Milosevic. He was the

6 commander of the 3rd Battalion. The commander of the 1st Battalion was

7 Mr. Filipovic. The commander of the 2nd Battalion was Mr. Tadic, the

8 commander of the 3rd Battalion was Mr. Milosevic and the commander of the

9 brigade was late Stojan Petkovic, and his assistant was Slobodan

10 Vukovic [as interpreted].

11 Q. I put it to you, witness, that they did not hold positions of

12 command in the brigade in 1991, as you claim?

13 A. And I put it to you that Stojan Petkovic was the brigade

14 commander, his assistant was Slobodan Vukolic, and Mr. Milosevic was the

15 commander of the 3rd Battalion, that's to say my commander, and I said

16 Vukolic, not Vukovic.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to turn

18 to the statement now. Can 2D216 be admitted into evidence, please.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, no objections from your side, isn't it?

20 MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

22 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D87, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. You gave your first statement to the OTP on the 12th and 13th of

Page 6676

1 March, 2003, and on the 10th, 11th and 29th of April, 2003; is that

2 right?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] This is P51, and can it be called

5 up, please. Page 1. Actually, it's page 2. Can we turn to the next

6 page, please, page 2.

7 Q. Witness, please look at item 4. Therein you stated:

8 "I have been under investigation after a traffic accident. In

9 1998, I was charged and convicted, but the appeals court overturned the

10 conviction. Other than that, I have never been under investigation. I

11 have never undergone treatment at any mental health institution. I have

12 to undergo a medical examination every three years because I work as a

13 driver."

14 Do you stand by your statement today?

15 A. Yes, I do. However, subsequently there were some cases against

16 me and in one of them I was tried and the others were dropped, the

17 charges were dropped.

18 Q. Witness, I put it to you that on page 1 of your statement dating

19 from the months of March and April 2003, you lied to the Prosecution of

20 this Tribunal.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we now call up -- or rather 65

22 ter 1D294. Or rather, I'm sorry, 1D293, page 2.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Is paragraph 1 fully translated. Could we just go

24 back to the original.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think you have the

Page 6677

1 judgement before you now. I don't know if you were referring to this

2 witness statement?

3 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to go back to the witness statement

4 both in English and in ...

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's P59, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: A bit confused whether it was 59 or 51, but.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it says 59 in my

8 notes. I might be mistaken but we called it up previously.

9 JUDGE ORIE: You earlier referred to it as P51 and that is

10 apparently the number. Okay. Let's go back then to P51 in both

11 languages. First paragraph I see in the original a reference to December

12 1984, which -- or 1994. I'm just wondering whether everything we find in

13 the original is there in translation as well.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it seems that

15 paragraph 1 has not been fully translated. It is not of much interest

16 for us, but I suppose that the Prosecutor will correct the mistake.

17 However, paragraph 4 that I showed the witness was fully translated.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I hope that you will understand that I feel some

19 concern if the first paragraph is not fully translated, that means that

20 it has not been properly checked whether the English reflects in every

21 respect what is found in the original.

22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I agree there appears to be a

23 discrepancy. Mr. Laugel is investigating it as we speak.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. To the extent it has been admitted, then

25 the status should change again and mark it for identification because we

Page 6678

1 need it on our list of MFIs to further verify whether the translation is

2 accurate or not. Please proceed.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please have

4 again 65 ter document 1D293, page 2 in e-court.

5 Q. Witness, can you see this judgement on the left-hand side of your

6 screen and are you the Kovacevic, Milomir, with this personal

7 identification number from Backa Topola, Kis Ferenca Street number 46?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Have you been convicted here for the crime of fraud on the 18th

10 of October, 2002?

11 A. According to this judgement, I was convicted on the 18th of

12 October, 2002, but since my lawyer lodged an appeal, this judgement

13 became only final in 2004.

14 Q. Sir, but in your statement given in 2003 March and April, you

15 said that no investigation was conducted of you?

16 A. There was no investigation. A criminal report had been filed and

17 the first instance judgement did not become final until 2004.

18 Q. All right. Let's move on. Here you were sentenced to four

19 months in prison; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. For fraud?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please have

24 this document admitted into evidence.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.

Page 6679

1 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm satisfied that it was provided

2 officially by the government of Serbia and have no objection.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there an appeals judgement as well,

4 Mr. Kovacevic?

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, it's in the next document

6 actually.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then in the absence of any objections,

8 Madam Registrar.

9 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit D88, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to call

12 up the next 65 ter exhibit 1D294.

13 Q. Sir, is this the judgement that you said became final in 2004 by

14 rejecting your appeal and confirming the original judgement?

15 A. Yes, this is the judgement. However, this judgement as well as

16 other judgement were put together and I served a combined sentence.

17 Q. Can you please go slowly. We will come to that later. Can you

18 tell me is this the judgement that confirmed the previous judgement for

19 fraud and this judgement was rendered on the 2nd of June, 2003?

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to have

21 this document admitted into evidence as well.

22 MR. GROOME: No objection, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

24 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D89, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. The document as they

Page 6680

1 are uploaded in e-court, one is a letter with the first instance

2 judgement attached, whereas this one apparently is just the judgement.

3 Do we need the letter and at least it should be described properly in

4 e-court, that the first instance judgement is not a judgement but an

5 attachment to a letter.

6 Yes.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since Mr. Groome

8 confirmed that we had received this from the official authority of the

9 Republic of Serbia, I don't think we need a previous letter confirming

10 this, and we have the confirmation from the witness as well. There is no

11 dispute.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then could you please then upload in e-court as D88

13 just the first instance judgement without the letter attached to it.

14 Please proceed.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness's mikes

16 please be lowered and could the speakers please pause between questions

17 and answers. We notice that the witness's answer was not recorded in the

18 transcript.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Any previous answer not being recorded or --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Page 18 -- no, page 16, line 18.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that.

22 Witness, you did confirm that the second judgement you saw on

23 your screen was the judgement which confirmed the previous judgement for

24 fraud, and that it was rendered on the 2nd of June, 2003? Your answer

25 to --

Page 6681

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, could you please keep in mind to make

3 those pauses, because we will end up with an incomplete record which is

4 in no one's interest. Please proceed.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I will do

6 my best but this was just for the sake of expediency. Can we please have

7 again the original judgement, that's D88, and can we please look at page

8 3 in B/C/S. Can we please turn to the next page in both versions.

9 That's page 3.

10 Q. Witness, I'm going to read out to you the statement of reasons

11 provided by the court concerning the statement that you gave which you

12 denied a minute ago, and you will confirm whether what is written here is

13 correct. And it reads as follows:

14 "At the hearing, the accused changed his statement concerning the

15 method of payment of the money received by stating that he paid the money

16 in Kosjeric in the name of the injured party Crnkovic. Then he said that

17 he had paid the money at the cement plant cashier's office. Then he said

18 that he had paid the money two weeks after he had received it. Then he

19 stated that at that time he did not get the money back, and he also

20 changed his statement in this part concerning the way in which the money

21 was given back to him, stating that that was done in cash, and later he

22 said that he received it through a remittance order. For the money thus

23 returned, he explained that he spent it to pay back an earlier debt, but

24 then he said that at the time when he received the money he had no debts

25 whatsoever, and then he said that he spent the money for doing

Page 6682

1 something."

2 Now, are all these statements correct, which is to say that you

3 made your statement before April 2003 and that you did it in this way,

4 which is to say by changing your statement and facts?

5 A. That is the only time I gave my statement since there was no

6 investigation, the gentleman who gave me the money --

7 Q. I'm asking you whether it is true what is written in this

8 judgement according to what the court found regarding your defence and

9 your statement?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to move

12 now to the next document, that's 65 ter 1D295.

13 Q. Witness, this is a judgement rendered by the district court of

14 Subotica in which there was deliberation about appeals against the

15 original judgement pursuant to which you were accused for the crime of

16 endangering life and limb with a dangerous weapon during a fight and

17 brawl. Secondly, you were accused for illegal possession and bearing of

18 arms and ammunition referred to Article 33, paragraph 1, of the Law on

19 Weapon and Ammunition of the Republic of Serbia. And an extensive crime

20 of fraud and two crimes of falsifying official documents referred to

21 Article 23 of the Criminal Code of Serbia. So for all these crimes, you

22 were convicted in the year 2000 -- no, I'm sorry, the trial commenced

23 pursuant to judgement or case K 255/2000. This is when the trial began.

24 Now, up until April and March 2003, are you saying that you gave

25 no statement whatsoever?

Page 6683

1 A. I said that I did give statement, but this judgement became final

2 only in 2004, which means then in April 2003 I was not a convicted

3 person. You can see that from the judgement which became final in 2004.

4 Q. Witness, let us not go back to your statement given to the

5 investigator of the OTP. You said that you had a car accident and that

6 that investigation was completed and that apart from that you were not

7 subject to any investigation or judgement?

8 A. I said that I was acquitted, whereas all the other judgements

9 were not final at the time.

10 Q. I'm going to repeat to you once again.

11 A. It is true that the proceedings were being conducted --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, what you apparently want to establish,

13 that the witness in his statement was not candid about these proceedings,

14 that point is clear to us, so would you please move on.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. In order

16 to be more efficient, I will follow your advice and I will move to the

17 next issue.

18 Q. We said that this is a continual crime of fraud. You will agree

19 with me that that actually involves a series of frauds over a short

20 period of time which is then qualified as a continual crime or criminal

21 offence.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. And by this decision, you were convicted to a single

24 term of imprisonment of one year and five months?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6684

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to offer

2 this exhibit into evidence.

3 MR. GROOME: No objection, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

5 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D90, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. Mr. Bakrac, the most

7 efficient way of dealing with these kind of matters is that you,

8 apparently in the possession of the judgements, that you ask Mr. Groome

9 whether he challenges the authenticity of them and then in five questions

10 to the witness which takes approximately five minutes, you would have

11 established exactly what you've established now. The questions being, is

12 it true that this judgement, that judgement, that judgement was brought

13 against you, have you read the judgements, is it the specific portion.

14 You ask him to read that and say does this reflect the defence you

15 conducted at the time. And then we deal with this in five minutes rather

16 than in 20 minutes.

17 Please proceed.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am halfway through

19 my examination. I have two or three judgements left and I will do my

20 best to go through them as quickly as possible. Can we have 65 ter

21 1D296, please.

22 Q. Witness, is it true that before the 2nd municipal court in

23 Belgrade on the 25th of September, 2000, you were rendered a judgement

24 which became final on the 13th of December, 2000, whereby you were

25 sentenced to a term of imprisonment of one year for the crime of fraud?

Page 6685

1 You can see that in item 1. Is that right?

2 A. Yes. All these judgements --

3 Q. A moment, please. Witness, it is clearly written here, and I'm

4 asking you whether it's true or not, that this is a judgement rendered by

5 the 2nd municipal court in Belgrade which became final on the 13th of

6 December, 2000?

7 A. Yes, it's true that it became final in 2000, but then

8 subsequently it was asked that all these judgements be put together,

9 joined together, and this was settled in 2006.

10 Q. Well, just tell me if it's true or not?

11 A. Yes, it is. This is true.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please not speak at the same time. Please

13 proceed.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Witness, therefore, in 2003 when you gave your statement, you had

16 already been rendered a final judgement by the 2nd municipal court for

17 the crime of fraud and was sentenced to a term of imprisonment of one

18 year?

19 A. Yes, but this sentence was about to be joined with others and it

20 was not final in that sense yet.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we have this document admitted

22 into evidence, please.

23 MR. GROOME: No objection.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

25 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D91, Your Honours.

Page 6686

1 JUDGE ORIE: D91 is admitted into evidence. If you have more

2 judgements, why not say to the witness is it true that you were convicted

3 on that day for that and sentenced to that and that and that, and that we

4 then agree on apparently the copies of the official judgements to be

5 rendered -- to be tendered and admitted into evidence.

6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution will not object to

7 tendering of any of the judgements which Mr. Bakrac has provided us

8 earlier.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I suggest to you, Mr. Bakrac, that you

10 briefly summarise what is found in these judgements and that you verify

11 with the witness whether he agrees that such convictions were pronounced

12 and including the sentences so that we can proceed.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will try to follow

14 your guidance.

15 Q. This is a 65 ter document, 1D305, which is a judgement by the

16 municipal court in Ruma dated the 19th of February, 2004, where you,

17 witness, were found guilty of fraud and sentenced to a term of

18 imprisonment of 10 months; is that right?

19 A. That's right. All these judgements were joined. The district

20 court in Subotica and the district court in Belgrade combined all these

21 sentences into a single one, but wait, let me tell you this, I was

22 referring, and I only considered as serious, the one single judgement

23 that existed against me and not all these individual ones.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Apparently sentencing was concentrated and in

25 one judgement -- in one sentencing judgement, is that correctly

Page 6687

1 understood?

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, chronologically one

3 can see how many different courts of law tried this particular individual

4 for the crime of fraud. Ultimately, some of these sentences were served

5 by the witness and those that were not were combined and the witness was

6 sentenced to a single term of imprisonment of three years. Where in our

7 system there are several final judgements, the accused can file for all

8 these sentences to be combined in order for the term of imprisonment to

9 be shortened. But this is nothing to do with individual judgements, and

10 the facts of these cases --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, you are giving evidence at this moment

12 and that's not what you are supposed to do. Having joined all the

13 convictions, has this resulted in a sentence of three years of

14 imprisonment, witness?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: The matter of the case, therefore, is that for

17 various cases of fraud and one case of the possession and/or use of a

18 weapon that the witness finally received a combined sentence after having

19 been sentenced by the various courts individually, a combined sentence of

20 three years imprisonment. How much time did you serve of those three

21 years altogether, witness?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the three years.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would only like to

25 add that you omitted to mention that there were two crimes of document

Page 6688

1 forging in addition to all these cases of fraud and the rest that you

2 mentioned. So for the transcript, I should like to say that there were

3 two instances of the crime of forgery charged. And I would like the

4 following documents to be admitted into evidence: 1D305, 1D299, 1D301,

5 and 1D300.

6 JUDGE ORIE: And that, may I take it, is the documentation which

7 underlies the answers the witness has just given? All judgements,

8 sentencing judgement included?

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, first instance

10 judgements, sentencing judgements, that's to say second instance

11 judgements as well, as well as the judgement pronouncing a single

12 sentence for all those terms that had not been served by that point.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections against omission?

14 MR. GROOME: No objection to the admission of these four

15 documents, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar we start with 1D305.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit D92, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Next one 1D299.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit D93, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: 1D301.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit D94, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: 1D300.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit D95, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: D92 up to and including D95 are admitted into

25 evidence. Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.

Page 6689

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Witness, I will now move on to a completely different topic. In

3 your statements you mention the name of Frenki. Do you know who that is?

4 A. I know that it is Mr. Frenki Simatovic who was assistant chief of

5 the state security department at the time.

6 Q. At which time was that?

7 A. I can't remember but I think it was sometime in 1991 when I was

8 already out in the field at Western Slavonia that he held the position.

9 We co-operated with the members of the state security department out in

10 the field, that's how I know.

11 Q. Do you recognise Frenki Simatovic here in the courtroom?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. Who he is?

14 A. The gentleman with the glasses.

15 Q. Do you recall on how many occasions --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, in court identifications are from a

17 scientific point of view rather useless, that's one, and second I see

18 Mr. Knoops wearing glasses, you are wearing glasses as well, so you might

19 be Mr. Simatovic, I've forgotten mine at home but if you do it, then

20 please do it seriously. And while I didn't want to mention Mr. Groome in

21 this respect. But if you know the literature, in-court identifications,

22 it's really a useless matter. Please proceed, be precise, be focused on

23 what you want to establish so that it assists the Chamber in the

24 determinations it will have to make. Please proceed.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 6690

1 Q. Witness, before this day on how many occasions have you seen

2 Mr. Simatovic in person?

3 A. I can't recall exactly. I think some four to five times.

4 Q. When was the first time you saw him?

5 A. Sometime in 1991, I believe.

6 Q. Where was this?

7 A. In the seat of the state security department when I came there

8 once carrying mail for the public and state security departments.

9 Q. And that was the first time you saw him in the building of the

10 state security department?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you tell us more precisely what time of year it was?

13 A. It was either second half of October or early November 1991.

14 Q. Where exactly did you see him, in his office or in the corridor?

15 A. In the corridor.

16 Q. How did you know that it was Frenki Simatovic?

17 A. My assistant brigade commander was with me, Mr.

18 Vukovic [as interpreted], and he told me that the gentleman was Frenki

19 Simatovic.

20 Q. Did Vukolic tell you at this point, that's to say November 2001,

21 what sort of role Mr. Simatovic had in the state security department?

22 A. No, he did not.

23 Q. Was he in civilian clothes?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you describe for us his appearance?

Page 6691

1 A. He had a suit and a tie. He wore eyeglasses. He had a normal

2 gait. His hair combed to the right-hand side. He was passing through

3 the car door casually and Mr. Vukolic remarked, here is Mr. Simatovic.

4 Q. You said that his hair was combed to the side. Now that you look

5 at Mr. Frenki Simatovic, have a look, can you tell us was his hair styled

6 as it is now?

7 A. No, it was longer.

8 Q. How much longer?

9 A. I can't really recall.

10 Q. Medium length, long?

11 A. Medium length.

12 Q. And it was combed as you say?

13 A. Yes, to the extent I could see.

14 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us when was the second time you saw

15 Mr. Simatovic?

16 A. The second time I saw him was sometime in 1992 in the seat of the

17 Serbian Voluntary Guard at the training centre in Erdut.

18 Q. Do you recall the date?

19 A. I don't. I only remember that I was driving my commander and the

20 other individuals from my unit to a meeting at the training centre in

21 Erdut.

22 Q. Was this the meeting when, according to what you say,

23 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan was showing some sort of an official

24 identification?

25 A. No, this was a different meeting where Zeljko Raznjatovic was not

Page 6692

1 present.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Where Simatovic was

3 not present.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Do you recall what Mr. Simatovic was wearing at this meeting?

6 A. I don't recall exactly, but I believe he wore a uniform, though I

7 don't recall its appearance. I think it was a camouflage uniform. And

8 that he had a beret on his head.

9 Q. Did he wear glasses?

10 A. Yes, he did. I parked the vehicle I drove, my superiors left,

11 shook hands with him in front of the building, whereas I stayed by my

12 vehicle.

13 Q. Who did he shake hands with?

14 A. With my superiors.

15 Q. Which ones?

16 A. Slobodan Vukolic, Mr. Stevo Pavkovic who is now the commander of

17 the police brigade in Belgrade.

18 Q. According to your statement, one of the two of them told you that

19 this was Frenki Simatovic; is that right?

20 A. Well, I said that I had seen him in October of 1991 in the seat

21 of the state security department. When they returned from the meeting, I

22 asked Mr. Stevo, since he was seated in the front, whether he was

23 present, and his response was, yes, I believe I saw Frenki Simatovic. I

24 think he was there.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, I'm seeking in order to avoid confusion

Page 6693

1 clarification of some of the answers. I'll take you back to page 28,

2 line 5. You had asked the witness when he saw Mr. Simatovic for the

3 second time, and then the answer was that it was sometime in 1992 at the

4 seat of the Serbian voluntary guard at the training centre in Erdut. The

5 witness did not remember the date, and then you ask him was this the

6 meeting when according to what you say Arkan was showing some sort of an

7 official identification. He said, the witness then said:

8 "No, this was a different meeting where Zeljko Raznjatovic was

9 not present." And this was then corrected, the difference --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Frenki Simatovic was not

11 present.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I was just about to read the correction. So the

13 answer finally was that this was a different meeting where Simatovic was

14 not present. And then you continued:

15 "Do you recall what Mr. Simatovic was wearing at this meeting?"

16 Now, the confusion lies in the following: The witness refers to

17 a meeting where he saw Mr. Simatovic, then you asked him was that a

18 meeting where Arkan was, and then the witness answered, no, this was a

19 different meeting. Now, it's unclear whether it's the one meeting or the

20 other, so I understood the testimony now to be, and I wanted to have this

21 clear on the record, that when the witness referred to the different

22 meeting where Simatovic was not present, that that was the meeting where

23 Arkan was present. And when you asked him do you recall what

24 Mr. Simatovic was wearing at this meeting, you referred to the other

25 meeting where Arkan was not present but where Mr. Simatovic was present.

Page 6694

1 By not specifying which meeting the question and the answer relate to,

2 confusion might arise and I hope by these comments to have avoided

3 further confusion. And I urge you to be very precise in the formulation

4 of your questions. Please proceed.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I see

6 that you are looking at the clock and so am I, maybe this is a convenient

7 moment to take a break.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We already had a session which was slightly

9 longer than usual. We'll have a break and we'll resume at quarter past

10 4.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 4.19 p.m.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, please proceed.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Witness, let us go back to your first encounter with Mr. Franko

16 Simatovic. You said that that took place at the state security

17 department HQ in November 1991?

18 A. Yes, or early November.

19 Q. Now, can you please explain to me this: When you say at the

20 state security department seat or HQ, in which building exactly was this

21 institution in Belgrade?

22 A. In Banjica.

23 Q. Do you know the name of the street?

24 A. No, I cannot remember. I know that it's in Banjica, our

25 neighbourhood, and I remember how the building looked like.

Page 6695

1 Q. Is --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, and you as well, Mr. Kovacevic, you

3 should make a pause between question and answer, otherwise the

4 interpreters cannot possibly follow you and the transcriber has a similar

5 problem. So wait for you -- Mr. Kovacevic, perhaps you look at the

6 screen, and as soon as it stops moving it means that what Mr. Bakrac has

7 said has been transcribed and most likely also be translated and only

8 then give your answer.

9 Mr. Bakrac, you are more experienced and more trained, so give

10 the good example, please.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honours, thank you,

12 and I apologise once again to the interpreters.

13 Q. Sir, when you say Banjica, is that part of Belgrade which is not

14 down-town?

15 A. That's part of Belgrade which is not in the centre of the city.

16 Q. That building in Banjica that you referred to, is that in the

17 suburbs of Belgrade next to the building of the military medical academy?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you, sir. The second time you saw Mr. Simatovic in Erdut,

20 you said that that took place in which month and which year?

21 A. I believe that was in early 1992, perhaps in February or March of

22 that year.

23 Q. Very well. You described how he looked like at the time. Tell

24 me, who else was present at this meeting?

25 A. From among my commanding officers, there was Mr. Stevo Pavkovic,

Page 6696

1 Slobodan Vukolic, and Petar Ojkic.

2 Q. Was there anyone else apart from Franko Simatovic and the people

3 you just named present at the meeting?

4 A. Yes, there were other officers who were deployed in the area. I

5 only know my officers, but later I heard from Mr. Stevo Pavkovic that

6 also present were commanders of the Territorial Defence of various

7 villages and also present were officers who at the time were still

8 members of the JNA deployed in the area.

9 Q. If I understood you correctly, Zeljko Raznjatovic was not at that

10 meeting?

11 A. Yes, he was, only I didn't see him.

12 Q. Then how do you know that he was there given what your commander

13 told you about the attendance?

14 A. He said that Mr. Zeljko was there as well because the meeting was

15 held at the training centre of the Serbian Voluntary Guard and the police

16 of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

17 Q. Is that your conclusion because of the venue, or did your

18 commander tell you explicitly that Arkan was there?

19 A. Yes, he told me that he was there.

20 Q. Do you know in what capacity Mr. Franko Simatovic attended this

21 meeting?

22 A. No. My officers did not tell me that, and I never inquired about

23 these meetings, what was discussed, and they wouldn't tell me anyway.

24 Q. If I'm not wrong, then you don't know anything about the role

25 that Mr. Franko Simatovic played at the time in that area?

Page 6697

1 A. I don't know what his role was at the time, and I don't know what

2 they discussed at the meeting either because I was outside waiting for my

3 officers.

4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness. Now, if and when you saw

5 Mr. Frenki Simatovic for a third time, when did that happen?

6 A. The next time I saw Frenki was also sometime in 1993 or 1994, and

7 that was again when I went to deliver certain official documents to the

8 state and public security departments in Banjica. With me at the time

9 was Mr. Tadic who was the battalion commander. We both came from the

10 field and he went to the premises of the state and public security

11 departments to deliver the documents.

12 Q. Was Mr. Franko Simatovic on that occasion in civilian clothes and

13 did he look the same as he did on the first two occasions?

14 A. I was waiting for Mr. Tadic, my officer, whilst he went to

15 Mr. Franko Simatovic's office. I only saw him when he opened the door.

16 Frenki was sitting at his desk and I remained outside waiting for my

17 officer.

18 Q. And that happened also in the same building in Banjica when you

19 saw him for the first time?

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the answer that

21 the witness gave.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, the interpreters have not heard the

23 answer, most likely because you already started speaking.

24 The question was:

25 "And that happened also in the same building in Banjica when you

Page 6698

1 saw him for the first time?"

2 What's your answer to that question?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I again

6 apologise to the interpreters and the Trial Chamber. I will really do my

7 best at least to avoid making these mistakes myself.

8 Q. Sir, after this encounter, did you see Mr. Simatovic again?

9 A. I saw him at the celebration of the unit for special operations I

10 think in 1996.

11 Q. So we said the security institute, or rather, the HQ of the state

12 security department for the first time, late October, early November

13 1991, second time in Erdut, sometime in February 1992; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The third time again at Banjica on the premises of the state

16 security department in 1993 or 1994; correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And the fourth and the last time you saw Mr. Frenki Simatovic was

19 in Kula in which year?

20 A. In 1996 during the celebration of the unit for special

21 operations.

22 Q. Now, everything that I enumerated these four occasions on which

23 you saw Mr. Frenki Simatovic is correct; this is your evidence?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Outside these occasions you never saw him?

Page 6699

1 A. I don't think so.

2 Q. Now, when you were in Kula, in what capacity you attended that

3 celebration?

4 A. I was in the security detail of the outside parameter around the

5 unit for special operations.

6 Q. When you say the outside perimeter of security, I understand that

7 to be for you to have been outside the training-ground?

8 A. I was at the very entry point to the training-ground in Stolac in

9 Kula, some 5 or 6 metres from the gate.

10 Q. And you stayed there throughout the day?

11 A. Yes, until very late evening or early morning when we went back

12 to our unit.

13 Q. And you saw Mr. Simatovic where?

14 A. I saw him while he arrived at the centre.

15 Q. Do you remember who he was with?

16 A. No, I cannot remember.

17 Q. Witness, do you remember how he arrived?

18 A. I think he came in a passenger car, or it was a black Mercedes

19 jeep, but I think it was the latter.

20 Q. Witness, I'm now faced with this topic relating to your

21 encounters with Mr. Simatovic, and now I'm faced with three completely

22 different scenarios and versions. Now, can you tell me, please, which

23 one of those is correct. Can you please choose one of the versions that

24 you believe to be correct.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Therefore, for that purpose, can we

Page 6700

1 please have Exhibit P52.

2 Q. Before we look at this exhibit, can we say that on the fourth

3 occasion you again did not know anything about the role or the function

4 of Mr. Simatovic; is that correct?

5 A. Well, Mr. Simatovic, as far as I knew, held a position of

6 assistant chief of public security department, and that he was also the

7 leader and the commander of the so-called Red Berets.

8 Q. When you say head or leader, what do you mean by that?

9 A. The Red Berets which later became a special operations unit.

10 Q. When did he become the leader of the Red Berets?

11 A. I cannot know that exactly because I was not privy to the

12 appointments in that particular department.

13 Q. If you were not privy to these appointments, then how do you know

14 that in 1991 Mr. Simatovic was assistant chief of the state security

15 department?

16 A. I learned that from conversations that I had with my officers.

17 Q. Well, I'm putting to you, witness, that you were misinformed.

18 A. Possibly.

19 Q. According to your current evidence, Mr. Simatovic was in the

20 public security department for a certain period of time?

21 A. I don't know about that.

22 Q. On page 36, line 18, when I asked you about the post and the role

23 of Frenki Simatovic, you said that he was in the public security

24 department?

25 A. I don't remember saying that he was in the public security

Page 6701

1 department.

2 Q. Very well.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Let us now look at page 5 in

4 English. I'm interested in paragraph 33 and the following paragraphs.

5 In order to expedite the procedure, I'm just going to paraphrase what is

6 written on the 11th of May, 2009, about what this witness said about his

7 encounter with Mr. Simatovic.

8 Can we please look at paragraph 33, that's on page 5 in the

9 English. Unfortunately I don't have the B/C/S version, but we can look

10 for the corresponding paragraph which is 33.

11 JUDGE ORIE: What -- it's paragraph 33 you say on page 5 of --

12 because Madam Registrar tells me that it's a three-page document, so it

13 may be difficult to find page 5.

14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that's the document

16 to which we did not object. Just let me -- oh, yes, I am sorry, my

17 mistake. My mistake, I do apologise, Your Honours. It's P53. P53, page

18 5, paragraph 33. I apologise once again. This is supplemental

19 information provided by this witness on the 24th and 25th August that

20 were not contained in his original statement, so this is additional

21 information. If you look at paragraph 33 --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.

23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I see what appears to be two English

24 versions. Could I ask that a B/C/S version be placed so the -- I've been

25 told --

Page 6702

1 JUDGE ORIE: I see some nodding no. I'll inquire about your

2 request, whether we have that.

3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, it's your document provided in English

5 and not uploaded in B/C/S from what I understand, so therefore the

6 question addressed to the Registrar is a question which you might have to

7 address to yourself.

8 MR. GROOME: I appreciate that, Your Honour. I'll check with

9 Mr. Laugel.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Since we do not have a version in

11 the B/C/S, Your Honours, is it possible for me to paraphrase the contents

12 to the witness and we can all see the exact wording and this will help me

13 proceed more quickly.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed quickly.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. So, witness, here in English it says that on the 24th and 25th of

17 August, you provided additional information to Mr. Hoffmann from the OTP,

18 and you stated in paragraph 33 that you saw Mr. Frenki Simatovic for the

19 first time in Bubanj Potok in July 1991, then that you saw him for the

20 second time in September 1991 at Arkan's headquarters in Erdut, so in

21 September 1991. Then you saw him for the third time in early November in

22 1991 in Erdut, and then for the fourth time in 1994 in Bubanj Potok, and

23 the fifth time you met him in May 1997 at the celebration in Kula.

24 Tell us, which is true, the account you've given us today or the

25 account you gave to Mr. Hoffmann a year ago?

Page 6703

1 A. Well, I only said that I saw him three, four, or five times. I

2 can't recall all these occasions exactly. Now that I've seen this

3 report -- this statement, it's true that we saw him in 1991 in the

4 barracks of the military post in 1960 in Bubanj Potok. This was at the

5 time when I went to Bubanj Potok with my superiors. Now, as for

6 September 1991, this must have been October or November 1991. And the

7 last time I saw him was at a celebration of the special unit, whether

8 this was in 1996 or 1997, I cannot recall.

9 Q. What you said here was that you also saw him two times in Erdut?

10 A. I saw him once in Erdut and it was sometime in October or

11 November 1991.

12 Q. What about Bubanj Potok?

13 A. This was sometime in the summer of 1991.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Pause between question and answer and answer and

15 question.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness, when you testified shortly after giving this statement,

18 you also said that you saw Frenki Simatovic for the first time in

19 Bubanj Potok in 1991. This is page 2171. And then at page 2172, you

20 said in line 10 that you saw him in 1991 at the centre in Erdut but you

21 did not recall when exactly this was. You believed that it was sometime

22 in August or September 1992.

23 Can you tell us now, was this in 1991 or 1992 that you saw him in

24 Erdut?

25 A. In 1991.

Page 6704

1 Q. Was it in August or September?

2 A. I've already said that it was end September, early October, 1991,

3 just before the liberation of the town of Vukovar, because Vukovar was

4 liberated on the 18th of November, 1991.

5 Q. In other words, it is not true what you said today here that you

6 saw him in February 1992 in Erdut?

7 A. I did not see him in Erdut in 1992.

8 Q. You've told us a moment ago, and I asked you about it twice

9 before I showed this to you, and your answer was February 1992 in

10 reference to you seeing him in Erdut?

11 A. I saw him in Erdut in September or October of 1991, and I don't

12 remember ever seeing him again in Erdut.

13 Q. Very well. Witness, tell me now, if you saw him in Erdut in

14 September or October, how was it possible that in the second part of

15 October or early November your boss should present to you

16 Frenki Simatovic for the first time in the seat of the security building?

17 A. Well, my boss did not acquaint me with Simatovic personally. He

18 merely pointed him to me as he was passing along the corridor. I had

19 seen him in Erdut in a uniform, whereas now he was in his plain clothes.

20 I saw him in Erdut as he was shaking hands with my superiors outside the

21 building before the meeting.

22 Q. Half an hour ago or some 45 minutes ago you told us that you saw

23 him for the first time in late October or early November in the seat of

24 the security building and that your superior told you here this is

25 Simatovic?

Page 6705

1 A. I told you that the first time I saw him was in 1991 in Erdut and

2 the second time was in late October or early November in the building of

3 the state security department.

4 Q. When did you see him for the third time?

5 A. The third time I saw him was, I don't know which year it was, as

6 I was carrying mail for the public and state security department, and my

7 boss Tadic went to Frenki Simatovic's office in the state security

8 department, and this was sometime in 1993 or 1994.

9 Q. Was it 1993 or 1994?

10 A. Yes, I believe either 1993 or 1994.

11 Q. And since that occasion up until the celebration at Kula, you did

12 not see him; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I refer you to

15 transcript page 2171 of this case where the witness said that you saw

16 Mr. Simatovic in 1994 again in Bubanj Potok. That's at lines 8 through

17 14.

18 Q. Which of these two accounts is true, what you've just told us

19 today or what you said at this earlier trial?

20 A. In 1994 as I was with my superiors in Bubanj Potok, I did not see

21 Frenki Simatovic, it was my superior who told me that Simatovic was in

22 Bubanj Potok at the time. I myself did not see him.

23 Q. At page 2174, in line 8 you said:

24 "I saw him once." In other words, you claimed to have seen him

25 in 1994 in Bubanj Potok.

Page 6706

1 Does this mean that you were misinterpreted?

2 A. I told you now that I did not see him myself. I heard it from my

3 superior that Simatovic was in Bubanj Potok at the time. I myself did

4 not see him.

5 Q. Thank you, witness.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kovacevic, I'll read to you what you said a year

7 ago. You were asked when you saw Mr. Simatovic in person for the first

8 time. You said it was when you were preparing yourself to leave for

9 Slavonia and Baranja at the Bubanj Potok barracks. Then a few other

10 questions are put to you, and then you were asked:

11 "Did you see Mr. Simatovic at the barracks or was he arriving at

12 a certain time?"

13 Which is a bit of a confusing question, but the one not being

14 alternative to the other, and then your answer was:

15 "I saw him at the point at which he arrived, and then he went

16 away with some people, perhaps one or two of them. He went to the

17 barracks command at Bubanj Potok."

18 And then you were asked:

19 "What exactly were you doing at the Bubanj Potok barracks when

20 you refer to preparing yourself to leave for Slavonia and Baranja?

21 "We were being prepared, we had shooting exercises." Then the

22 next question was:

23 "Do you know any of the persons that arrived with Mr. Simatovic

24 to the barracks?"

25 "No, I was standing a bit further away from them, from a

Page 6707

1 colleague of mine who was an active policeman in the police brigade. I

2 heard that he had recognised Frenki Simatovic. I never saw him before

3 and that day when I saw him it was only from a bit far."

4 Now, I put to you all these answers because they are giving quite

5 some detail that you did see him, that you were there, that it was the

6 first time you saw him because you say you hadn't seen him before, and

7 that you heard from a colleague that the person you had seen, although

8 not from very nearby, was Mr. Simatovic. That is not in accordance with

9 what you told us the last 15 minutes. Do you have an explanation for

10 this discrepancy?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't recall this

12 precisely. My unit was at the barracks as of the month of June up until

13 July in this barracks at VP military post 1960, we were preparing for our

14 deployment to Western Slavonia and Eastern Srem. One day, this is what I

15 can remember, a colleague of mine who was a member of the active service

16 told us that Frenki Simatovic had arrived. We were just standing there

17 and he told us, Frenki Simatovic has arrived. He got out of the car and

18 went to the command of the barracks at Bubanj Potok. This was just a

19 glimpse of him that I caught.

20 So yes, I saw him there and then the other time in Erdut and then

21 at the command of the state security department, so these were the

22 occasions when I saw him. I know that he repeatedly visited the barracks

23 at Bubanj Potok, but I did not see him and I did not have information

24 about him arriving.

25 JUDGE ORIE: It's still not fully consistent with your testimony

Page 6708

1 of last year which gave quite a few details. Would you be very careful

2 if you answer a question, not to speculate or not to be imprecise and to

3 tell us exactly what you know for certain, and if it is that you heard

4 that from someone else, that you tell us as well, and that if you have

5 any doubts as to your recollection, to inform the Chamber about such

6 doubts.

7 Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will

9 complete this topic shortly and perhaps there will be no need to go back

10 to it.

11 Can we now call up P51 again, which is this witness's statement.

12 I'd like the witness to look at paragraph 45. In B/C/S that's page 10,

13 and the paragraph is 45 as I said.

14 Q. Witness, you state here that -- or rather, tell us first, do you

15 know who Goran Hadzic was?

16 A. Goran Hadzic was from the village of Pacetin. Initially, he was

17 commander of the defence of the village of Pacetin. Before the war, he

18 worked as a storage facility clerk at a co-operative in Pacetin, and

19 later on he became the president of the Serbian Republic of Krajina.

20 Q. You state here that Goran Hadzic directly co-operated with

21 Radovan Stojicic, Badza; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You also say that he was in direct contact with Arkan?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Which year does this portion of your statement relate to? Is it

Page 6709

1 1991 when you arrived in the area of Erdut?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You said that you recall there being Goran Hadzic, Arkan with his

4 commanders, including Milorad Ulemek, also known as Legija, his deputy at

5 the time; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. This was a meeting held sometime in 1992 in a place called Dalj.

8 Did you see Legija in 1991?

9 A. No, not in 1991. In 1992 when the meeting at Dalj took place.

10 Q. You had not seen Legija at all before that meeting?

11 A. No, not Legija, I would see Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, his deputy

12 commander for logistics, Mr. Mirko Jerkovic.

13 Q. Do you recall which month this meeting was held?

14 A. I can't recall that. The only thing I know was that it was held

15 in the building of the Dalj Municipal Assembly.

16 Q. Witness, in relation to paragraph 51 and paragraph 52 of your

17 statement, we can check this, and while we're waiting for it to appear on

18 our screens, you state in paragraph 51 that all the so-called

19 paramilitary units which had been organised in the Republic of Serbia

20 were attached to the JNA, and you say here but the JNA officers were not

21 able to fully control them. So were these forces under the JNA command?

22 A. The volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party appeared as

23 volunteers and placed themselves under the control of the Yugoslav

24 People's Army. Now, the Serbian Volunteer Guard of the

25 Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan, was headquartered in Erdut and they were not

Page 6710

1 under the direct command of the Yugoslav People's Army. There were also

2 volunteers of Mr. Mirko Jovic. They volunteered to join the JNA and some

3 of them also joined the Territorial Defence of the SAO Srem and Eastern

4 Srem.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, when you quoted the witness, you left

6 out that the paramilitary units had allegedly been attached to the JNA,

7 which means that the witness apparently is not, in paragraph 52 of his

8 statement, talking of his own knowledge. And would you please keep that

9 in mind in the follow-up questions. Please proceed.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, that may have

11 been my mistake and this is precisely why I wanted to clarify this

12 paragraph with the witness. We received some information from him, and

13 we still have to discuss Arkan's Tigers.

14 Q. Under whose command were they if any?

15 A. At the time, the Serbian Voluntary Guard of Zeljko Raznjatovic,

16 Arkan, acted, as far as I knew, in co-operation with the JNA, but also

17 with the Territorial Defence of Western Srem and Eastern Slavonia. To my

18 knowledge, they were under the direct jurisdiction of the state security

19 department.

20 Q. Who was under the state security department jurisdiction?

21 A. The Serbian Voluntary Guard of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan.

22 Q. How do you know that?

23 A. I heard that from my superior officers and officers of the JNA

24 who were deployed in the same area where I was.

25 Q. Witness, did you give evidence earlier in this case that there

Page 6711

1 was one occasion on which Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, and your commander

2 clashed?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you say on that occasion that Arkan showed to your boss an ID

5 of the state security department?

6 A. There was a conflict underground between our units and the JNA

7 units on the one hand and the units of the Serbian Volunteer Guard on the

8 other. My officer complained to my commander that they had problems with

9 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan. My commander went to meet Zeljko Raznjatovic

10 in Erdut in an attempt to clarify this problem and this clash between the

11 officers on the one hand and himself on the other.

12 Q. My question was: Did Zeljko Raznjatovic on that occasion show

13 the state security department ID?

14 A. When they went to the HQ of the Serbian Volunteer Guard in Erdut,

15 they entered an office, I remained outside. They sat together, they

16 started arguing, and at one point Zeljko Raznjatovic said, you cannot

17 command me, I have my own command, you don't know who I am and what I am.

18 And at that point my commander said, I'm not interested in that. I only

19 want to avoid any conflicts between my units and your units on the

20 ground.

21 Then the other one took an ID out of his pocket and brandished it

22 in front of him saying that he belonged to the state security department,

23 that he obeyed their orders only, rather than orders coming from some

24 officers or police.

25 Q. Witness, I have a limited time at my disposal and I have to

Page 6712

1 finish by the end of this session and I'm trying to do that. Please

2 focus on my questions. I'm asking you again, did you yourself see that

3 he showed him the ID of the state security department?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is it true that you saw it and that on page 2143 you said that

6 this was a blue ID?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please have in

9 e-court Exhibit P488.

10 Q. In the meantime, can you tell me what was written on that ID?

11 A. As far as I was able to see written on that ID was security

12 department on the first page, then he opened it up and there was a photo,

13 but I didn't see whose photo it was.

14 Q. Can you please look at the screen. Is that the ID that you are

15 talking about?

16 A. No.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the next page,

18 please.

19 Q. Did he open this book?

20 A. Yes, he did, but I couldn't see it.

21 Q. Is this how it looked like?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So the front page is not identical to the one that you saw

24 because you said it was written, what?

25 A. Security department.

Page 6713

1 Q. So you say security department only. Witness, I'm putting to you

2 that what you are talking about at the moment is something that you are

3 making up simply for the reason -- and the Defence team is going to prove

4 this in the further proceedings, that all members of the state security

5 and public security departments from the lowest clerk up to the minister

6 all had identical ID, and they looked like the one that we are seeing on

7 our screen?

8 A. Yes. Inside there was the name, the surname and the date of

9 issue, and also responsibilities were listed inside.

10 Q. And it was written security department on the cover?

11 A. Yes, they had official IDs with a coat of arms of the Republic of

12 Serbia.

13 Q. This is not what I'm asking you and the Bench warned you to be

14 very precise. And I think that you fully understand what I'm asking you,

15 actually. Tell me, what was written on the ID that Arkan showed?

16 A. Security department.

17 Q. There was a coat of arms?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And that ID is not identical to the one that I'm showing you in

20 Exhibit P488 when it comes to the cover page.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters kindly ask the speakers again to

22 pause between questions and answers.

23 JUDGE ORIE: One second. I think it's now the fifth or the tenth

24 time that you are asked to make a little pause between question and

25 answer. Could I remind you again. Please proceed.

Page 6714

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Witness, so, you had enough time to look carefully at the inside

3 of the ID?

4 A. Yes, but I couldn't see whose photo and whose details were inside

5 it.

6 Q. How then were you able to see what was written there? You

7 mentioned responsibilities, the scope of responsibilities a minute ago?

8 A. Since I held this state security department ID in such a way that

9 I was able to see what was written, so if you open this booklet, you can

10 see the lists of responsibilities on the right-hand side of the booklet

11 relating to the holder of that ID.

12 JUDGE ORIE: If it happens once again, we'll change the system,

13 and then with my hands I will indicate who can speak and who cannot

14 speak, and that would be true for you, Mr. Bakrac as well. And I would

15 be hesitant to move to that system, but if you force me, I will do.

16 Mr. Bakrac, could you --

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] If it's of any relevance, I do

18 apologise once again, and I will do my best and avoid your intervention,

19 if possible. Can we please now look at page 1 of the document.

20 Q. Do you see the first page of this ID?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. Did you have the same ID like this one?

23 A. No, I didn't.

24 Q. What kind of ID did you have?

25 A. I had an official ID, blue one, on which it was written official

Page 6715

1 ID, and inside it contained my details, and underneath it was written

2 reserve police officer which meant that I didn't have all the powers as

3 an active-duty policeman would have.

4 Q. But now you told us that on the cover it was written official ID,

5 isn't that the same what is written here?

6 A. On this ID that I saw Arkan showing, that there was security

7 department written in gold letters, whereas our IDs have different

8 descriptions. And as I said, inside it was written reserve police

9 officer and there was also the date of issue.

10 Q. All right. You explained this to us. Just another

11 clarification. It seems that you didn't understand me. Now I understand

12 your description of Arkan's ID and your description of the other one.

13 I'm asking you about your ID, did you have the -- an ID that had the same

14 cover as we see on the screen which says "Official ID"?

15 A. It was blue, you could open it, it has an identification number

16 and it had the coat of arm, and this identification number referred to

17 the records of the security department.

18 Q. Where was this identification number?

19 A. Inside on the right.

20 Q. So, witness, please look at the cover of this ID, please look at

21 the screen. You said that you had on your ID the coat of arms and an

22 inscription official ID. I'm asking you again, did it look identical to

23 the one that you see on the screen?

24 A. Yes, it did.

25 Q. Now, witness, I put to you that you could not have seen any

Page 6716

1 official ID on which it was written "security department" because such ID

2 was never issued by MUP. All members of both the security departments --

3 state security departments and public security departments had the same

4 one as you did, and I put it to you that you are making this up?

5 A. I saw this ID in Arkan's hands. However, where he got it from

6 and how, I cannot tell you that.

7 Q. Witness, in your statement, which is Exhibit P51, you spoke about

8 in paragraph 107 the transport of oil organised by Borovica transport, a

9 company owned by Mr. Borovica. You said that you personally took part in

10 the transport of oil from Bulgaria to FRY and that started -- which

11 started in 1992, but you yourself were involved in 1994; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, until 1994 I worked in the Belgrade department stores,

13 that's the company I left in 1994 and I joined the company of

14 Dusan Borovica as a driver.

15 Q. And you said the following:

16 "The drivers were given cash for their daily expenses for bribing

17 customs officers and for buying fuel."

18 Did you personally give any bribes to customs officers?

19 A. Before we went on a trip, we received money, whether for oil or

20 for petrol, and we went to Burgas to tank ... And we were also given

21 money to give to the Bulgarian customs officers.

22 Q. So you gave it to the Bulgarian customs officer to allow you

23 across the border to Serbia?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you personally give any bribe to any customs officer and how

Page 6717

1 much?

2 A. Yes, I did. It depended on the value of the goods that was in

3 the tanker. We were supposed to give a certain percentage to the customs

4 officer of that value depending on whether it was oil or petrol.

5 Q. How much did you personally give to a customs officer or the boss

6 of the customs service or whoever, because usually there was a convoy of

7 trucks and --

8 A. We knew exactly the quantity that we were to tank in Burgas, and

9 depending on that, I think that the amount of the bribe equalled 5 to 10

10 per cent of the total value.

11 Q. Where did you give them the money, at the very border crossing?

12 A. No, we would park our lorries before entering the terminal in

13 Bulgaria, and we would go to the chief of the customs service, we would

14 hand over the international bills of lading and the invoices, and we

15 would give them money there.

16 Q. Where was this fuel and oil transported later?

17 A. It would first be transported to Borovica Transport, then on the

18 company premises, metal frames and tarpaulin would be installed in order

19 to conceal the fact that this was a tanker lorry and so that everybody

20 would think that those were ordinary lorries.

21 Q. And where did you drive these trailers?

22 A. There were always four, five, six, sometimes ten lorries. We

23 would go to Srem hotel, the parking-lot near Sremska Mitrovica, that

24 would usually happen at dusk, and there would be a convoy of the lorries

25 carrying fuel, petrol, and other goods that could not legally cross at

Page 6718

1 Sremska Raca because these border crossings were manned by the observers

2 from the European Union.

3 Q. So how did you manage to pass through?

4 A. Late in the evening, the police, the traffic police would come

5 and they would provide security for the convoy up until the forest. We

6 would travel along the highway towards Sid, and we would make a detour

7 into the wood where there was a gravel road, and there was a gate there

8 which was locked, and there was a gate also at the exit point of this

9 road.

10 Q. Please don't go into too many details. Where did those trucks go

11 from there?

12 A. The trucks would set off from the premises of Borovica Transport

13 company, other trucks with other goods would set off from Belgrade either

14 from the port of Belgrade or --

15 Q. Sir, please wait. I asked you where did they travel further, not

16 where from.

17 A. They would go through this forest, they would reach a village

18 that was outside of the border crossing which was Sremska Raca. At that

19 point all traffic between Bosanska and Sremska Raca would stop on the

20 bridge across the Sava. We would have our headlights off, and then we

21 would cross the bridge to the Bosnian side where we would be met by the

22 police of Republika Srpska and Mr. Ranko Sukalo would also be there who

23 was a member of the state security of Republika Srpska.

24 Q. Witness, the bridge at the Serbian Raca, you say you crossed it,

25 can you tell us, does that constitute the border between the Republic of

Page 6719

1 Serbia and Republika Srpska?

2 A. Yes, it's the border. However, the official border crossing was

3 roughly a kilometre away from the bridge. The border facing Republika

4 Srpska was a kilometre or a kilometre and a half away from the bridge to

5 the other side.

6 Q. Was it possible for two trucks to pass one another on the bridge?

7 A. Yes, it was. However, at the point when we were crossing the

8 bridge, traffic was closed on both ends of the bridge until we passed.

9 Q. Is there a railway track passing along the bridge as well?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is it possible for such a narrow bridge which also carries a

12 railway line and, I forgot to ask you, there's also a swing gate there,

13 isn't there?

14 A. Yes. Between 1992 and 1995, the railway line between Sid and

15 Bijeljina was not operational. I have to tell you that.

16 Q. In other words, a convoy numbering four or five trucks passing

17 along such a narrow bridge would make sure that their headlights were

18 switched off so that UNPROFOR would not observe them?

19 A. Not the UNPROFOR.

20 Q. Yes, my mistake. The observers; right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you, witness. Tell us, did you sell the fuel in Republika

23 Srpska?

24 A. I myself did not. We already had places previously designated

25 where fuel would be decanted, some stayed at Bijeljina, a part of it

Page 6720

1 stayed at the Mandic petrol station in Banja Luka.

2 THE INTERPRETER: And the last part the interpreter didn't catch.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will try to complete

4 my examination within the next six minute. I only have two more topics

5 to cover before the break, I suppose that we will be having a break at

6 5.30.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, the last part of the last answer of the

8 witness was not caught by the interpreters. You said some stayed at

9 Bijeljina, a part of it stayed at the Mandic petrol station in Banja

10 Luka, and what did you then said?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was taken to Knin where it was

12 decanted at a storage facility of Nenadic Petrol.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, I'm trying to make a pause between the

14 answer and what I want to say. Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Witness, you worked for the private company Borovica at the time,

17 did you not? Now, the companies you just now mentioned in Republika

18 Srpska and Republika Srpska Krajina were all private companies, were they

19 not?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In your statement you also say that in the building where

22 Mr. Obrad Stevanovic was present, you took some reports that were

23 intended both for the public and state security departments; is that

24 right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6721

1 Q. What was the building you took these reports to both for the

2 public and state security departments and which you handed over to

3 Mr. Obrad Stevanovic?

4 A. For the public security department, Mr. Obrad Stevanovic's office

5 was in the MUP of Republic of Serbia in Kneza Milosa Street.

6 Q. As I understand from your statement, that's where you left the

7 reports intended for the state security department as well, did you not?

8 A. No. Those intended for the public security department were left

9 with Mr. Obrad Stevanovic. The rest were taken to the state security

10 department at Banja --

11 THE INTERPRETER: At Banjica, interpreter's correction.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. You said they were taken. Did you take them or somebody else

14 did?

15 A. Well, some four or five times it was me.

16 Q. And you took them to Banjica on those occasions, did you not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who did you hand the reports over to?

19 A. Well, I would turn them over to the reception office.

20 Q. Did the reports state the addressees?

21 A. No. The envelope was sealed and the envelopes intended for the

22 public security department stated public security department, Kneza

23 Milosa Street, and the others intended for the state departments

24 mentioned as much and were intended for Banjica.

25 Q. Can you tell us how it was possible that reserve policemen who is

Page 6722

1 at one point a member of the police service and at other point an

2 employee of a private company should be the one charged to directly take

3 reports to Mr. Obrad Stevanovic that were intended for the public

4 security department and envelopes containing, I suppose, confidential

5 reports to the state security department? Did you go through any sort of

6 vetting by the state security department prior to them assigning these

7 duties to you?

8 A. Well, I had been vetted before I joined the security department,

9 plus Mr. Obrad Stevanovic hails from my native place, so he knew very

10 well my parents and I knew his and we knew each other personally. In

11 addition to this, my superior, Mr. Slobodan Vukolic is also a person who

12 hails from Trbusani near Cacak, which is a place near to my native area,

13 so we knew each other before the service in the security department of

14 MUP.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. So on this basis, both the reports for the public security

18 department and sensitive reports for the state security department went

19 through you because you were on good terms with --

20 A. No, it wasn't me always who took the mail. Slobodan Vukolic

21 would join me or Stevo Pavkovic or Mr. Stanko Kukic.

22 Q. All these being your commanders; right?

23 A. Well, Mr. Vukolic was assistant brigade commander, Stevo Pavkovic

24 was commander of my unit, and Mr. Stanko Kukic was Mr. Stevo Pavkovic's

25 deputy.

Page 6723

1 Q. So what you did was drive them to Belgrade only, did you not?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So why did you state for the statement that it was you who took

4 the reports there?

5 A. Well, I went with them. I accompanied them to the offices or

6 when they went to Stefan Obradovic's [as interpreted] office, or I

7 accompanied them to the reception office where they would hand over the

8 state security reports.

9 Q. Well, I do understand why you would go to the office of

10 Obrad Stevanovic since you hail from the same village. However, at

11 Banjica, was it not the case that you would stay behind in the car and

12 Mr. Vukolic would take the reports?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So you both went to the reception office?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave can I

17 put two more questions and then I will finish.

18 Q. Can we look at your statement again, the portion discussing

19 Western Bosnia, and the paragraph is 116 and 117. To speed up matters

20 and finish within a couple of minutes, I will sum up what you said. In

21 paragraph 117, you spoke of Western Bosnia and apparently the year is

22 1995, and then you said that the army and the police of the RS was under

23 the command of their staff; whereas, our unit was under the command of

24 Rados Mitic and Lieutenant-Colonel Mitic who came from the SUP of Backa

25 Topola, or, rather, Lieutenant-Colonel Milic, he was from

Page 6724

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, from the area around Sekovici. You go on to say

2 Arkan's units seem to be acting independently. Can you explain this for

3 us, what did you mean by this?

4 A. Well, the Arkan's units that were present in the area from

5 Prijedor all the way to Sanski Most in carrying out combat activities

6 acted independently or -- and without co-ordinating their activities with

7 the other units present in the area, both those units of Republika Srpska

8 and our units that were there.

9 Q. In other words, they did not receive orders from anyone?

10 A. Well, as far as I was able to see, they had very poor

11 co-operation with our units and our commanding officers.

12 Q. In that same paragraph, you state that there were Drina Wolves

13 units present there as well, then Vucjak Wolves, as well as Mauzer's

14 Panthers. There was also the unit of Vojvoda Mandic, also known as Manda

15 from Ugljevik; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Were all these units of local Bosnian Serbs?

18 A. They were all local Bosnian Serb units that were attached to the

19 units of the Army of Republika Srpska.

20 Q. Did all these units also have red berets or wore red berets?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Which ones did wear red berets?

23 A. As far as I was able to see only Mauzer's Panthers wore red

24 berets. Arkan's units had a different sort of head wear --

25 Q. Sorry, I want to finish in a minute or two, so I have to stop you

Page 6725

1 there. I'll read this out for you. Drina Wolves and Vucjak Wolves who

2 wore red or grey berets, and Mauzer's Panthers who wore red or grey

3 berets. Can you tell us now, Vucjak Wolves and Mauzer's Panthers, what

4 sort of berets did they wear?

5 A. The Vucjak Wolves had grey berets and Mauzer's Panthers had red

6 berets.

7 Q. What about the fighters of Vojvoda Mandic, also known as Manda

8 from Ugljevik?

9 A. They wore camouflage uniforms and all manner of head wear. The

10 peaked cap, "sajkaca," et cetera, but they had camouflaged uniforms.

11 Q. Did they ever wear red berets?

12 A. No.

13 Q. My last question for you, witness, is this: How did you come

14 into contact with the Prosecutor of this Tribunal in order to testify in

15 2003?

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6726

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. This --

4 these were all the questions I had, and I thank you for patience. I

5 apologise again to the interpreters and to you. This was all the result

6 of my wish to finish my examination as soon as possible.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.

8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm unable to say off the top of my

9 head whether the person who has been mentioned is the subject of any

10 protective measures. Can I ask for provisional redaction and an

11 opportunity to investigate whether such measures apply.

12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13 JUDGE ORIE: We already take the break and we'll resume at five

14 minutes past 6.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 5.41 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 6.07 p.m.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, are you ready to cross-examine the

18 witness.

19 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes, thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Novakovic, you'll now be cross-examined by

21 Mr. Jordash. Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:

23 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kovacevic.

24 A. Good afternoon.

25 MR. JORDASH: Could I ask, please, that Mr. Kovacevic is given

Page 6727

1 this map which Your Honours should also have a copy or be about to be

2 handed a copy. Thank you. Do Your Honours have that? Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: We received a small map.

4 MR. JORDASH:

5 Q. Mr. Kovacevic, you'll recognise, I presume, that this map shows

6 parts of Belgrade; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And I suggest it shows part of -- or it shows Banjica; is that

9 right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Would you be able to mark on that map whereabouts it was you went

12 when you saw Mr. Simatovic or where you went when you delivered the mail

13 to the DB, please? Put shortly, can you mark where you say the DB office

14 was.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Perhaps if you could put your initial against that in a short

17 while. So just to be sure, this is where you were told the DB office was

18 in the years between at least 1991 to 1995; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. This is where you met Mr. Simatovic in his office or around his

21 office; correct?

22 A. I was close to his office and on one occasion my superior went to

23 his office.

24 Q. And his office was in that building that you've indicated with

25 the mark on the map; correct?

Page 6728

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And did you ever see Mr. Stanisic in that building?

3 A. Well, I can't remember exactly, but it's possible that I did see

4 him.

5 Q. Well, let's not guess or presume. If you can't remember, you

6 can't, but if you can, you can. Do you remember or not?

7 A. I don't remember.

8 MR. JORDASH: Okay. Perhaps if the witness could just mark it

9 with his initials, and I could ask that this be tendered as an exhibit,

10 Your Honours.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was roughly somewhere there.

13 THE REGISTRAR: It becomes --

14 JUDGE ORIE: One second. The witness apparently is now pointing

15 at some different. Your first marking, Mr. Kovacevic, was that a correct

16 one or was it a wrong one?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was wrong. When you take

18 Crnotravska Street, you come across a football club, and RAD is on your

19 left-hand side and the military academy on your right-hand side, so this

20 is the right marking.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, if you go from one street to

22 another, could you indicate on the ELMO which street you were referring

23 to where the football pitch is so that we have a better idea of what you

24 told us? Can you use the -- on the screen, of course it would have been

25 preferable if you would have this map on the screen so that it could be

Page 6729

1 marked on the screen that's in a electronic format.

2 No, now we can't see what the witness is telling us. Could I

3 take it what did you say, you mentioned a certain street, which street

4 were you referring to?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Crnotravska Street.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you say --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the direction where the public

8 security department building was, one could take two routes. One could

9 take the motorway to the auto command and then on to the Red Star

10 football club.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I'll stop you there. Please carefully look at the

12 map in front of you. May it be replaced on the ELMO. And could you bend

13 a bit over the microphones being adjusted so that with a pointer you can

14 tell us what you are talking about. And now look at the paper copy and

15 follow the instructions of the usher. You are still looking at the

16 screen. You should look at the hands of the usher now who is standing

17 next to you. Okay. Now, is there a pointer there? Could we get a

18 pointer or a pen? Okay. Now, you point with the pen what you wanted to

19 explain to us. You said the Crnotravska Street, which is visible on the

20 map, could you tell us what you exactly meant? And point at -- bend over

21 a bit, and can the microphones be adjusted so that the interpreters still

22 can -- okay. Now, you tell us and you point with the pen what you wanted

23 to explain to us.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the MUP building where the

25 public security department was housed one could take two routes.

Page 6730

1 JUDGE ORIE: Point with the pen at the building you just

2 mentioned. Where is that found on the map?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The building of the public security

4 department, which is on Kneza Milosa Street, cannot be found on this map.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, I would like to hand it over to you.

6 But you may have found out the way in which I want to address it, to be

7 very precise on what you are talking about, where is it, which direction

8 do you go, and let's be very careful that sometimes people are very good

9 with maps and others are not that good, so let's verify every single step

10 the witness takes. Unless you say it's a totally different area of town.

11 MR. JORDASH: It is.

12 JUDGE ORIE: It is. Okay. Then --

13 MR. JORDASH: I think perhaps without giving anything away, the

14 place Banjica is I think approximately 10 kilometres away from where the

15 witness says the MUP office was at Kneza Milosa Street.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Is the -- apparently the medical -- the army

17 medical hospital, the Vojno Medicinska Akademija is that -- is it one or

18 has more departments? Is it one place because we have to be certain

19 about it?

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that I

21 should step in and assist my colleague. In the centre of Belgrade there

22 used to be a building of the military medical academy which relocated to

23 Banjica, this particular venue once it was built. And this is the one

24 and only building of the VMA. Sometimes when people wish to refer to the

25 old venue of the hospital, they would say the old VMA, but as soon as the

Page 6731

1 hospital relocated to this venue, the other venue was no longer used by

2 the VMA.

3 JUDGE ORIE: But perhaps still known under that name which is a

4 possibility. I mean, the Esso building in The Hague is not used by Esso

5 since ages, so I just want to avoid whatever. I leave it again in your

6 hands, but I'm trying to figure out whether there is an explanation for

7 such a huge discrepancy, whether we can understand it or whether it's

8 totally understandable other than by unreliability of the witness.

9 MR. JORDASH: If I can -- we tried -- I will try to get a map

10 with both locations on it.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MR. JORDASH: And we did try it before but it wasn't proving

13 possible, but overnight I think we might be able to solve that problem.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I had a concern because I tried to follow it

15 and I make this now known to everyone on the satellite version of Google

16 Maps, and I noticed that the second marking is at a place where there's

17 no building at all. So perhaps we'll continue this tomorrow.

18 MR. JORDASH: Yes, I can pick up with this tomorrow. Thank you.

19 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, so the record is preserved: At this

20 point, the witness has made two markings. Can I ask - what he is saying

21 is an errant marking - can I ask that he be instructed to draw an X

22 through what he says was an errant initial marking and a circle around

23 the marking that he says was a state security facility?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The first marking, was that the one you said

25 was wrong, Mr. Kovacevic?

Page 6732

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The last time I went to the state

2 security department building was in 1994, so I can't remember with

3 precision, but what I do know is that when one leaves the MUP building

4 which is where the public security department is housed, is that one can

5 take two routes, the motorway Zagreb-Nis --

6 JUDGE ORIE: We'll deal at a later stage again with the location.

7 We leave it for awhile. But the marking you made on this map, was the

8 first one the wrong one?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because when one arrives from

10 the direction of the Crnotravska Street, that's to say from the direction

11 of the clinical hospital centre Banjica, one passes along the military

12 medical academy and the RAD football club pitch, and then one turns right

13 towards the state security building.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the RAD football pitch is on the map, so

15 therefore it's really confusing me. Mr. Jordash, may I suggest that we

16 work with the best available material, that you first, perhaps, gain some

17 additional information and then perhaps that we could come up with the

18 satellite pictures which makes it better possible to look at what we see.

19 Maps have their limitations.

20 MR. JORDASH: I'll do my best overnight.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, it's not extremely complex, I would say.

22 And I take it that it's no major problem to have the Google map satellite

23 picture copied or have it that on the screen. I can have it on my

24 internet screen within a second.

25 MR. JORDASH: I'm sure we can manage that.

Page 6733

1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then with the location we'll deal with that

2 tomorrow. We still have not had an answer. You said, and don't explain

3 why, but your first marking was the wrong one?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the wrong one.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And the first marking was the one above the

6 Vojno Medicinska Akademija, is that right, and the second marking was

7 below?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first marking is in front of

9 the VMA as one takes the Crnotravska street from the direction of the

10 medical clinical centre Banjica, and the other one is actually behind the

11 VMA.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Look at the map you marked, you see that? Do you

13 see the map on your screen?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The first marking higher up and the second marking

16 further down?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one is behind the academy and

18 if you look at the other one from the direction of the centre of the

19 town, it's actually in front of the academy.

20 JUDGE ORIE: That's not what I was asking. You pointed at two

21 markings. I want to establish whether the marking a bit higher up was

22 the first one you made, whereas the lower one was the second one you

23 made?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The one below is the one that I did

25 as the second marking and the one above is my first marking.

Page 6734

1 JUDGE ORIE: That's on the record. Mr. Groome, I do not know

2 whether we are going to do anything with this, whether you want to tender

3 this into evidence or, Mr. Groome, whether you have any interest in

4 looking at this rather than at what we'll see tomorrow.

5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I agree that we should pursue a

6 satellite version, but I do believe this should be preserved for the

7 record. So if my colleague is not going to tender it, I would tender it

8 from the Prosecution.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Shall we mark it for identification at this moment,

10 because to admit it into evidence the probative value might be a bit of a

11 problem in view of.

12 MR. JORDASH: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the hard copy, because that's what

14 it is at this moment, the hard copy of a map that should now be given to

15 the Registrar receives what number?

16 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number D96, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ORIE: D96 is marked for identification. Please proceed.

18 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. You provided various statements, Mr. Kovacevic, in which you

20 allege to have met Mr. Stanisic. Please, could you indicate when you

21 first met him?

22 A. Chronologically, I can't remember when it was the first time I

23 saw him. The first time I saw him was for a short time only. The second

24 time was maybe 1994 --

25 Q. Pause, pause. Let's deal with this slowly and chronologically.

Page 6735

1 The first time you met him, you met him where?

2 A. The first time I met him was, I believe, in the state security

3 department.

4 Q. At Banjica?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, which year was this, please?

7 A. I think it was sometime in 1991. I don't recall exactly when.

8 Q. What were the circumstances? What gave rise to you seeing or

9 meeting him?

10 A. The circumstances were such that Stojan Petkovic, then Slobodan

11 Vukolic, and Obrad Stevanovic were supposed to attend a meeting in the

12 state security department.

13 Q. And did they attend that meeting?

14 A. I drove them all the way to the building. I accompanied them to

15 the reception box as well as to Mr. Stanisic's office. They got into the

16 office, they stepped into the office, and I waited for them outside. I

17 waited for the meeting to end.

18 Q. And you saw -- and did you see Mr. Stanisic?

19 A. They stepped into his office, and as they did they shook hands

20 with him, and then I saw him for a moment.

21 Q. When they emerged from the meeting, did they tell you what they'd

22 discussed or why they'd attended for the meeting?

23 A. No, they didn't.

24 Q. And was that the end of the first time you saw Mr. Stanisic? You

25 left the meeting?

Page 6736

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And the second time?

3 A. The second time I can't remember when that was, but I think that

4 while loading goods for Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian

5 Krajina at the Danube port, Mr. Stanisic came at one point with his

6 workers to see how this convoy is being arranged and dispatched, and the

7 rest of it.

8 Q. What happened during that occasion then? What did you experience

9 Mr. Stanisic doing?

10 A. Well, Mr. Jovica Stanisic talked there to some people who were

11 making preparations for the departure of the convoy to Republika Srpska

12 and the Serbian Republic of Krajina.

13 Q. And which people was he speaking to?

14 A. The only person I knew then who was not a member of either the

15 state or public security department was Mr. Ljubisa Buha of Surcin.

16 There were also some other people whom I did not know.

17 Q. Did you hear Mr. Stanisic speak?

18 A. No, because I was some 20 metres away and I was standing by a

19 lorry full of goods.

20 Q. So you have no idea what he said?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And you were not told what he said?

23 A. No. He probably gave some instructions to the people who were

24 escorting the convoy to the border line with Republika Srpska. The two

25 men from this escort crossed over to Republika Srpska together with us.

Page 6737

1 Q. Why do you say he probably gave some instructions? You didn't

2 hear, you were not told, why do you say he probably gave some

3 instructions?

4 A. I said that because the people who were talking to him and to

5 some other people, there were a total of them five or six, and they left

6 together with us in official cars and headed for the border crossing.

7 Q. Why does that make you think that he probably gave them

8 instructions? It's not clear to me why that should lead you to make that

9 probable conclusion.

10 A. Well, this convoy was made up of some 20 to 25 lorries, all of

11 them loaded with various goods, specifically in my lorry there were

12 cigarettes, in other there was ammunition, there was foodstuffs, and

13 there were also lorries carrying fuel --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Oil and petrol.

15 MR. JORDASH:

16 Q. But that's not an answer to the question. What was in the

17 lorries is one thing. What Mr. Stanisic said or didn't say is another.

18 Why are you suggesting he probably gave some instructions?

19 A. Well, I don't see any other reason for his being there because

20 these people who accompanied us and the convoy up to the border, we were

21 also escorted by the police from the public security department, later on

22 we were taken over by the state security of Republika Srpska, and we were

23 also met by members of the state security department or section from

24 Sremska Mitrovica.

25 Q. Okay. The Danube port, did it have another name?

Page 6738

1 A. Well, the Danube port is the Belgrade port for freight

2 transportation. Everybody calls it the Danube port. It's on the river

3 Danube, in the neighbourhood of the city called Dorcol, and it is at the

4 far end of Francusla Street.

5 Q. And what year was this?

6 A. I cannot remember exactly, but I think it was in 1994.

7 Q. Well, was it before the hostage crisis in which Stanisic played a

8 role?

9 A. That was before the hostage crisis.

10 Q. How long before?

11 A. I can't tell you exactly. Could be one month or month and a

12 half.

13 Q. Right. So shortly before that, let's call it that. Do you agree

14 with that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, did you see Mr. Stanisic again?

17 A. Not until the hostage crisis arose.

18 Q. And in what circumstances did you see him then?

19 A. I saw him when my unit was deployed as a security detail near the

20 town of Zvornik where the crossing is.

21 Q. What was your security --

22 A. That is between Zvornik and Belgrade.

23 Q. What was your security detail doing? Sorry, what was your unit

24 doing? Who was it securing?

25 A. Well, my unit was securing the road leading from Zvornik via

Page 6739

1 Banja Koviljaca-Loznica-Sabac, and then along the highway to Belgrade.

2 Q. To what purpose?

3 A. To ensure safe passage of troops and the hostages who were being

4 transported to Belgrade.

5 Q. All right. Let's have a look at -- actually before we do that,

6 did you see Mr. -- what was Mr. Stanisic doing when you saw him on this

7 occasion?

8 A. Mr. Stanisic came from Republika Srpska. The column that crossed

9 the Drina near Zvornik stopped on our side, and since the hostages were

10 in a bus, Mr. Stanisic got out. They stayed there some 10 or 15 minutes,

11 and then the convoy proceeded towards Belgrade. Our duty was to close

12 off all the secondary roads in order to prevent anyone driving along this

13 road and especially along the highway to Belgrade.

14 Q. And after that occasion, did you have any other time when you saw

15 him in person?

16 A. During the celebration dedicated to the special operations unit.

17 Q. That's the Kula award ceremony, is that what you are referring

18 to?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. Right. I want to now refer you to the accounts you've just --

21 you've given before about meeting Mr. Stanisic.

22 MR. JORDASH: Could we have on e-court, please, P51. Sorry, I

23 beg your pardon, no, could we have 1D01213. Please forgive me, please

24 can we go to, I beg your pardon, it's proofing note of the 24th and 25th

25 of August, 2009, which is P53. I don't think this has been translated so

Page 6740

1 I'll read out what I'm interested in. Could we go to paragraph 28,

2 please.

3 Q. You recall meeting Mr. Hoffmann, the Prosecutor, in August of

4 2009 shortly before you first gave evidence in this trial? Do you

5 remember that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Paragraph 28 says:

8 "He saw Jovica Stanisic a few times. The first time was possibly

9 in 1992 or 1993 at the Luka harbour in Belgrade." Is that correct?

10 A. I said that it was sometime in 1994 because that is when this

11 convoy left and that was in 1994.

12 Q. Well, if we go to the end of this statement, it says:

13 "These notes have been read out to me in Serbian and contain

14 everything I said to the best of my knowledge and memory."

15 And I think if we go to paragraph 39, we'll see your signature.

16 Will you confirm, when we get there, that that's your signature?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I think you're ahead of us. Is that your signature?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Right. So you read this, you read the fact it said that the

21 first time you met Jovica Stanisic was possibly in 1992 or 1993, and you

22 confirmed it, didn't you?

23 A. In 1992 I saw him at the state security department offices, and

24 the second time I saw him at the harbour or at the Danube port was in

25 1994, that's what I remember.

Page 6741

1 Q. Okay. I'm not going to spend too much time on this. I'll just

2 put one question and ask you to explain why it was you signed this

3 document when it had this inaccurate information in it?

4 A. I signed this document because at that point I was unable to

5 remember exactly whether it was in 1993 or 1994. Later on when I

6 reviewed my notes that I have at home, I realised that was in 1994.

7 Q. I am glad you've raised the notes, because you mention those

8 notes when you gave evidence in, I think, the -- another trial. Have you

9 not brought those notes with you to show your contemporaneous record or a

10 more contemporaneous record? Why haven't you brought them with you?

11 A. I did bring my notes but nobody asked to see them.

12 Q. Where are they?

13 A. That's why I didn't bring them this time. They are in my

14 possession. They are put in chronological order, and I have copies of

15 travel orders and dispatch notes for the goods that were being

16 transported.

17 Q. And you've never told the Prosecution about that? That you have

18 these notes?

19 A. At the time when I give my statement in Belgrade in 2003, I

20 informed the investigators about this; however, they told me to keep the

21 notes with me and they would tell me in due time if they become necessary

22 and ask me to present them.

23 Q. Did you bring them when you testified in the -- just pausing

24 because of protective measures. Is there a problem referring to the

25 specific case in public?