Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6921

 1                           Tuesday, 7 September 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.  Madam Registrar, would

 6     you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon

 8     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is the case IT-03-69-T, the

 9     Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             I'd first like to move into private session, because,

12     Mr. Jordash, the matter you want to raise is related to testimony to be

13     given in closed session.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6922











11 Pages 6922-6937 redacted. Private session.















Page 6938

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  Could the witness be

 5     brought into the courtroom.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MR. GROOME:  While the witness is being brought in, it's -- we

 9     just received information from VWS of a nature that would properly be

10     considered disclosable under Rule 68 with respect to this witness that's

11     currently on the stand.  We have just sent it to both Defence teams, so I

12     just notify them that they should check their e-mail prior to proceeding

13     with the examination.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, for Rule 68, one would check its e-mail,

15     isn't it.  Is it Rule 68(A) or (B) or --

16             MR. GROOME:  I'd have to check.  It's exculpatory information,

17     Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because Rule 68 covers more ...

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20                           WITNESS:  RADOSLAV MAKSIC [Resumed]

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Maksic.  I'd like to remind

23     you --

24             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that you're still bound by the solemn declaration

Page 6939

 1     you have given at the beginning of your testimony.  I invite you to be

 2     seated, and Mr. Bakrac will cross-examine you.  Mr. Bakrac is counsel for

 3     Mr. Simatovic.

 4             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Thank you

 6     to Mr. Groome.  We have checked the e-mail.

 7             Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

 9        Q.   Good afternoon to everyone.  Good afternoon, Mr. Maksic.

10        A.   Good afternoon.

11        Q.   Mr. Maksic, yesterday you said that you were on the command for

12     the defence of the city of Belgrade; is that right?

13        A.   Yes, I was serving there.

14        Q.   Do you recall what was the military post of the Bubanj Potok

15     barracks or training grounds?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Thank you.  We are asking you this in relation to some other

18     witnesses, so we just wanted to seize the opportunity that you were

19     there.

20        A.   Well, the command of the city had over 25 units and military

21     posts.

22        Q.   Very well.  Let's move on.  You can't remember and that's all

23     very well.  You said yesterday in your evidence that the leaders and

24     volunteers of Seselj and Serbian Renewal Movement were given equipment

25     and weapons from the Belgrade Corps.  Do you know where they were given

Page 6940

 1     the assets?

 2        A.   At Bubanj Potok.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday you said, Mr. Maksic, that at some point

 4     you took along a group of individuals and met up with Mr. Biorcevic at

 5     Bogojevo.  You said that it was Bogojevo training grounds or Erdut

 6     training grounds.  Was it really the training grounds there?

 7        A.   Well, I said Bogojevo because I could not recall at that moment

 8     what the training grounds close to Bogojevo were called.  I recalled

 9     later on that the name was Erdut.  This was the training grounds for the

10     units from the Osijek Division.

11        Q.   Mr. Maksic, let -- let's make it quite clear.  When you said --

12     say Osijek Division, this means, in other words, that the training

13     grounds belonged to the Yugoslav People's Army; is that right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Maksic.  I will now move on to a different topic.

16     Yesterday you testified about two situations where, in your view,

17     Mr. Simatovic, or rather you refer to him as Frenki, on two occasions

18     where Mr. Simatovic was in Krajina.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   I don't want to call in question the good intentions you have to

21     testify and tell the truth here.  However, especially when it comes to

22     nicknames and some other circumstances, we can have cases of mistaken

23     identity involved.

24             Let me ask you this:  I spoke to my client, and during the time

25     period you claim to have seen him in Knin or Korenica, he maintains that

Page 6941

 1     he was not in the area of Krajina at all.  This is my question for you:

 2     Did you yourself see the individual you were told was Frenki, or did you

 3     only hear that Frenki was present there?

 4        A.   No, I saw it myself.

 5        Q.   On both occasions you yourself saw the individual you were told

 6     was Frenki?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   I have full respect for your age and I know that the lapse of

 9     time is lengthy, but can you please describe for us what the individual

10     you told was Frenki looked like?

11        A.   Well, he's taller than me by a head, and he wore glasses, and

12     that's the extent of the description I can give.

13        Q.   Did he have short or long hair?

14        A.   Well, I really don't recall the details.  I did not study him.  I

15     only cast a glance at him.  I said yesterday that I had never heard the

16     name before, so when I heard it then it meant nothing to me.  Later on

17     they explained to me that he came from the State Security Service.  I

18     said, and I'm repeating my words, I don't care about Frenki.

19        Q.   I understand.  The only thing you recall is that he was taller

20     than you and that he wore glasses.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And nothing else.  What sort of hairstyle he had?

23        A.   No.  I just looked at him and it didn't matter to me at all.

24        Q.   Did he wear civilian clothes or uniform?

25        A.   I'm not sure of that either.  I think he wore civilian clothes,

Page 6942

 1     but I'm not sure.

 2        Q.   Very well, Mr. Maksic, let's move on.  Mr. Maksic, yesterday you

 3     corrected your testimony from an earlier trial where you discussed a

 4     military operation in Gospic or in its surroundings.

 5        A.   Yes.  It wasn't in Gospic proper.

 6        Q.   Is it true that the 9th Corps was the unit charged with the

 7     operation, which led the operation?

 8        A.   Well, I don't know if that was the responsible unit.  According

 9     to our rules and instructions, the unit which is the highest in structure

10     and its commander would be in charge of an operation.  Since the units of

11     the 9th Corps, complete with nine tanks, and this is hearsay now, took

12     part in the operation, and it wasn't an operation, it was an attack on

13     Gospic, I suppose that the commander in charge of the attack was the

14     commanding officer of the 9th Corps.

15        Q.   In other words, according to the rules of combat and based on

16     what you just told us, people who came from the Serbian Renewal Movement,

17     Arkan's men, and Giska's men had to be under the control and command of

18     the commander of the 9th Corps.

19        A.   They should have but they were not.  They were in co-ordinated

20     action with the 9th Corps.  They were not subordinated to them.  Let me

21     explain what the difference between subordination and co-ordinated action

22     is.

23        Q.   Mr. Maksic, I don't have time for theories.  Don't hold this

24     against me.

25        A.   I won't.

Page 6943

 1        Q.   I'll put my next question to you, but be patient and please make

 2     a pause so that the interpreters can interpret what we say properly.

 3             So when you say "co-ordinated action," this other group also had

 4     to have had a commander who co-operated with the commander of the

 5     9th Corps; is that right?

 6        A.   With the commander who attacked Gospic.

 7        Q.   They had to co-ordinate their action.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   They had to plan the operation, the action, together and

10     everything else?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Mr. Maksic, you said that the units -- or, rather, the volunteers

13     of Vojislav Seselj, the Serbian Radical Party, were under the command of

14     the army; is that right?

15        A.   Yes.  There was a unit in the 9th Corps, in the 180th Brigade in

16     Benkovac.

17        Q.   Mr. Maksic were the volunteered of the SBO, the Serbian National

18     Guard, that's to say, of the Serbian Renewal Movement, were they also

19     under the command of the army?

20        A.   No.

21             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, would I like to call

22     in e-court 2D161, and I would like Mr. Maksic to have a look at it.

23     Before it appears on our screens, Your Honours, I discussed these

24     documents with my learned friend Mr. Farr yesterday.  This is a

25     documentation that the Defence obtained from a book entitled

Page 6944

 1     "Domominski [phoen] Rat," "Homeland War," and all these documents can be

 2     found in that.  The Defence asked for originals of these documents from

 3     the Croatian authorities, and since we will be calling witnesses who

 4     would be able to testify to these documents, we shall be using documents

 5     from the book, and with your leave we understand that Mr. Farr and the

 6     OTP don't object.  We would like to use this documentation and we would

 7     like the documentation to be MFI'd until such time as we receive the

 8     originals of these documents from Croatian authorities.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr.

10             MR. FARR:  It's correct.  We're happy for these documents to be

11     used and agree that they just be MFI'd pending --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That's how we will proceed.

13             MR. FARR:  Just one comment.  There are occasions where parts of

14     other documents are included in the document on e-court and those should

15     possibly be redacted and a new version uploaded.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you informed -- of course the Chamber cannot

17     take any objection not knowing what part of what documents are to be

18     protected.  May I can take it you have informed --

19             MR. FARR:  It's something I just noticed this morning.  It's not

20     an urgent point, but for example with the document we're about to see now

21     in the B/C/S version, there's -- you see the bottom of the previous

22     document, but it's not an urgent issue for the moment.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then, Mr. Bakrac, you're required to pay

24     proper attention to any part of a document which may be shown on the

25     screen and which perhaps should not be shown on the screen.  Please

Page 6945

 1     proceed.

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will do so.  I will

 3     ask my learned colleague to make note of what it is that should be MFI'd

 4     and what it is that should remain outside of the document.  And the

 5     English translation only relates to the documents we call, so there is no

 6     danger, no similar danger, there.  They can remain in the English version

 7     as they are.

 8        Q.   So this is, Mr. Vukic --

 9        A.   Mr. Maksic.

10        Q.   Yes, I apologise.  So this is the report from the commander of

11     the 9th Corps of the JNA to the command -- to the Supreme Command in

12     Belgrade, and on the 2nd of December, the commander,

13     Lieutenant-General Vladimir Vukovic, the commander of the 9th Corps wrote

14     the report; is that right?  You have looked at it.  Is the document

15     familiar?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Maksic, take a look at page 4.

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we have page 4 of the document?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  As far as the translation is concerned, yesterday we

20     saw a document which also started with "druze generale," and then it was

21     "comrade general," and today it seems to be a only a general anymore.  Is

22     that -- has the --

23             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  Here in the

24     heading we have the name -- oh, yes, Your Honour.  You're right.

25     "Comrade" is missing in the English translation.

Page 6946

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I get a bit concerned if I see that the

 2     translation is -- I don't know where it comes from, but could you take

 3     care that it will be reviewed.  Now, leaving out the word "comrade" might

 4     not immediately change the content of the document but, it's -- just

 5     caught my eye.  Please proceed.

 6             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  We will

 7     bear that in mind.

 8             Can we now see page 4 of this document, please.

 9        Q.   Look at the third paragraph from the top.  The sentence starts

10     with "Members of the RJ."

11        A.   Can you zoom in on this document, please?

12             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can you zoom in on the top part of

13     the document, please.

14             Your Honours, it is somewhere around the middle of the page in

15     the English version.  It says:

16             "Members of the RJ from the territory of the SAO Krajina in the

17     Republic of Montenegro are well motivated and they are good fighters.

18     Volunteers of the Serbian Guard have accepted the unified insignia and

19     are good soldiers."

20        Q.   Does this fact, which is referred to in this document here,

21     namely that the volunteers of the Serbian Guard - and I believe those are

22     the volunteers of the Serbian Renewal Movement - that they have accepted

23     the uniform insignia, that they are referred to as good soldiers, good

24     fighters, the report being by the commander of the 9th Corps, is that not

25     a clear sign that they are within or, rather, subordinated to the

Page 6947

 1     9th Corps?

 2        A.   Could I see the signature on this document, please, because this

 3     is an excerpt from a book.

 4             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is an excerpt

 5     from a book, and the document reads, if you can see in brackets on the

 6     first page which is VR, which means by one's own hand, that is in

 7     Croatian.  That means that there is a signature, a personal signature by

 8     the signatory.

 9        A.   First of all, this is not an original document of the kind that

10     could have been written by the commander of the 9th Corps,

11     General Vukovic, and I prove this by the following -- please revert to

12     the first page.

13             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we, Your Honours, have the

14     first page on the screen again because it has a VR sign and MP, which is

15     the stamp, the place for the stamp.

16             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] This is it.  Thank you.  First of

17     all, this heading, where it says, commander of the 9th Corps, strictly

18     confidential, number so-and-so, the 2nd of December, 1991, and then it

19     goes on to say Commander Lieutenant-General Vladimir Vukovic.

20             According to the rules of official correspondence and also

21     according to combat rules, let me not list them all at this point, a

22     document of this kind simply does not exist.

23             Secondly, never does a subordinate address a superior.  This

24     document -- I don't know to whom this is actually addressed here.  We

25     don't say a report [B/C/S Spoken], but [B/C/S Spoken] report.

Page 6948

 1             Thirdly, what does Vukovic -- Vladimir Vukovic have to do with

 2     volunteers who are in Montenegro?  He is the commander of the 9th Corps

 3     in Knin, and from Knin to Podgorica there are several hundred kilometres.

 4             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Sir, let us not waste time.  Let us not comment any more.  This

 6     is a report on soldiers who happened to be with the JNA in Knin at that

 7     time and hailed from Montenegro and Macedonia; inter alia, reference is

 8     made to members of the Serbian Guard who evidently are under the command

 9     of the 9th Corps.  At the end of this document there is a footnote.

10     There is a stamp on this document.

11        A.   According to what I have seen, I repeat this is not a standard,

12     an original document according to its content and according to its form.

13        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

14             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I move that this

15     document be MFI'd until we have the document's original from Croatia.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit D100 marked for

17     identification, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the number.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit D100 marked for

20     identification, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  D100 is marked for identification.

22             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we now see 2D181

23     on the screen.

24        Q.   Mr. Maksic, please look at this document.  This is an official

25     note of an operative of the state security department of Korenica in the

Page 6949

 1     SAO of Krajina about the latest information about the activities of the

 2     Serbian Guard in our area, and the date it bears is the 23rd of October,

 3     1991.

 4             If you take a look at this document, what it says is that the

 5     recently arrived detachment of the Serbian guard, 50-men strong, has

 6     been -- has placed themselves under the command of the Gracac OS TO,

 7     which is the municipal of the Territorial Defence, more precisely under

 8     the command of Lieutenant-Colonel Spanovic ...

 9             Are you aware of this?

10        A.   No.  But it is possible.

11        Q.   Did the Territorial Defence Staff of Gracac municipality, was it

12     under the command of Lieutenant-Colonel Spanovic at the time?

13        A.   I do not remember.  They changed the commanders, that is, but

14     about what you said, the volunteers would not be dispatched directly to

15     the TO staff of Krajina but to the individual TO staffs of the different

16     municipalities which directly communicated with men, with the people who

17     actually gathered, armed, and equipped the volunteers.  So I would be

18     supposed to know about this but I don't know about it, and it is the 23rd

19     of October, 1991.  It is possible that 21, as you say --

20        Q.   Fifty.

21        A.   Fifty volunteers, in fact, went and placed themselves under the

22     command of the Municipal Staff of the TO of Gracac.  It is possible but I

23     don't know about it.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can, Your Honours, can this document

Page 6950

 1     also receive an MFI number, please.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  The number would be.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D101, marked for

 4     identification, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And it will keep that status for the time being.

 6             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have another

 7     document in connection with the Serbian Guard.  Actually, I have a whole

 8     lot of them, but this will be sufficient because of the limited time for

 9     this witness.  Can we have 2D182, please.

10        Q.   I will tell you what this is about, Mr. Maksic, before it is

11     shown on the screen.  It is the report of the command of the 1st Brigade

12     of the TO of the IKM, which is the former command post of the 9th Corps

13     of the 12th -- of the Otisic IKM, the forward command post of the 12th of

14     November, 1991.  You can see it says on the left side command -- command

15     1 number TO of the SAO Krajina, at the IKM of the -- SS, I believe,

16     stands for village of Otisic on the 12th of November, 1991, report on the

17     engagement of a unit of the Serbian Guard.

18             The document starts with the words "an infantry platoon, strong

19     unit of the Serbian Guard, Vojvoda Misic was one of the units sent to

20     assist the forces securing the axis leading to Sinj."

21             Did you see --

22        A.   Yes, I did, but I don't see who it is addressed to, this

23     document.

24        Q.   This is a report on the engagement --

25        A.   But to whom is it addressed?

Page 6951

 1        Q.   We shall see in the second page.

 2        A.   But we should -- that should be on the first page to the

 3     addressee.  This is what it says here is the command of the 1st Brigade,

 4     and I will say a few words about that.

 5        Q.   Let us go through the entire document.  Let us now look at page

 6     2.

 7        A.   All right.

 8        Q.   Where it says the 13th of November, 1991, Vrlika --

 9        A.   I cannot see that.  I have the first page on my screen which says

10     the forward command post Otisic.  I cannot see the second page.  I don't

11     have it.

12        Q.   So the 13th of November 1991 Vrlika, the commander of the -- the

13     commander of the IKM towards Sinj, the Commander Lieutenant-Colonel

14     Rade Rajic, et cetera.  Are you familiar with the names of these

15     officers?

16        A.   Rajic is -- I'm familiar with Rajic.  He was my superior, and he

17     was there in the field, but I'm not familiar with this document, because

18     this brigade was resubordinated to the 9th Corps.  And I suppose that the

19     report sent by the commander of the 1st Brigade from the first page is

20     sending this to the commander of the 9th Corps and not to the TO staff.

21        Q.   From the forward command post they seem to be sending it to the

22     brigade command; right?  You can see that.

23        A.   When I say to the command of the 9th Corps the resubordination

24     involved the 9th Brigade of the JNA.  I don't know which exactly brigade

25     of the JNA it was with the commander of the brigade being

Page 6952

 1     Commander Djukic.  This brigade was resubordinated to the 9th Corps

 2     according to this, to this particular JNA commander.  If it's not clear,

 3     I can repeat.

 4        Q.   Let us just be more specific.  So you have never seen this

 5     document before, but according to the content and the signatories, you

 6     believe that --

 7        A.   Rade Rajic, yes, that is for sure.  The other ones -- as for the

 8     other ones, I don't know them.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document also

11     be assigned a number?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The MFI number would be.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  D102, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

15             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  Can we now

16     see 65 ter -- Exhibit 65 ter 352 on the screen.

17        Q.   Mr. Maksic, we shall now move away from the SPO volunteers, and

18     please take a look and read this brief document which is dated the 25th

19     of November, 1991, and it is from Petrinja.  Please read it.  Read it to

20     yourself so that we do not waste time, and please tell me whether you

21     know anything about it.

22        A.   You mean this which is half-typed and half-handwritten.

23             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please have the

24     second page.  Actually, it is the second page that we are interested in

25     B/C/S, and the English page is the right one.

Page 6953

 1        Q.   Take a look at this page, Mr. Maksic.  Does the 25th of November,

 2     1991, that is the time when you were in the area of the SAO Krajina?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   For the Municipal Assembly of Petrinja, Dr. Radovan Maljkovic,

 5     did you know him?

 6        A.   No.  We had this commander, Krajina was divided into areas Banja

 7     and Kordun, and our commander was Colonel Vujaklija , who regrettably is

 8     dead.

 9        Q.   According to what you know, we can see here that members of the

10     unit of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan were participating in fightings on JNA

11     and Territorial Defence positions in Petrinja municipality, and that the

12     unit would be commanded by a senior officer and would be part of and

13     under the command of the commander of the 2nd MTB of the 622nd Motorised

14     Brigade, Bogdan Ercegovac?

15        A.   I don't know anything about this document, and I don't see how it

16     relates to the -- how the president of the Municipal Assembly of Petrinja

17     had anything to do with the execution of combat actions, but he is the

18     one who signed it.

19        Q.   Are you familiar with the name of Bogdan Ercegovac?

20        A.   Bogdan?

21        Q.   Bogdan Ercegovac.

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Was the 622nd Motorised Brigade in that area?

24        A.   There was a brigade.  I don't know what its name according to

25     establishment was.  I know that the commander of this zone was

Page 6954

 1     Colonel Vujaklija and he was the one who sent reports to us.  He didn't

 2     send us this.

 3        Q.   This has a signature and a stamp.  Do you have any reason to

 4     doubt the authenticity of this document?

 5        A.   No, I don't doubt its authenticity.  It's just that I doubt the

 6     signature.  I mean for the municipality of Petrinja -- for the Petrinja

 7     municipality Assembly and signed by the president.  I'm saying what --

 8     what is the relevance?  What is the connection between the president of

 9     this municipality and the execution of combat actions.

10        Q.   I will just ask you one question and then I shall move for a

11     break.  You said that there existed municipal TO staffs.

12        A.   Yes, in every municipality.

13        Q.   Were they commanded by the president of the municipality?

14        A.   Well, they were.

15        Q.   Why are you then surprised by the fact that the president of the

16     municipality says that he will invite units of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan

17     to participate in fighting in positions of the JNA and TO?

18        A.   Because that should have been done by the TO commander of that

19     particular municipality.

20        Q.   Did you not say a minute ago that the municipal units of

21     Territorial Defence were commanded by the president of the municipality?

22        A.   Through the TO -- municipal TO commander.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24        A.   Just like the supreme commander of any -- in any state actually

25     does it through the Supreme Staff, Supreme Command Staff.  And the

Page 6955

 1     document is original.

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I move that this

 3     document be admitted into the case file.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  One of my concerns is that the translation is

 5     bearing stamps of other cases, and I would like to have a clean copy for

 6     translation.  You see that, Mr. Bakrac.  Could you upload, not

 7     necessarily immediately, but could you upload a clean version of the --

 8     of the --

 9             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a Prosecution

10     document, but if you wish us to assist, we shall ask for a properly

11     visible translation of the stamp which it bears.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't ask for that.  As a matter of fact.  I was

13     referring to the stamp I find at the top of the document, which is a

14     reference to -- you see that.  Exhibit Number --

15             THE REGISTRAR:  To be Exhibit D140 [sic] Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's helpful information but it was not the

17     matter I addressed.  Do you see that, Mr. Bakrac?

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, are you referring to

19     the English version or to the B/C/S version?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  To the English version.  I was talking about the

21     translation.

22             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] "OTP reference --"

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we move a little bit further up in the English

24     version.  Yes.  You see there is a full stamp and all kind of information

25     about the status this document had in another case.  That's not what I

Page 6956

 1     expect.

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that this is

 3     a number P of this exhibit from some other case.  I believe it is the

 4     Milosevic case, but we can ask for --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it's relatively easy if you just take that

 6     part out, but I do see the other point.  I noticed already that the

 7     translation doesn't say anything about a stamp being on the original at

 8     the bottom, another reason, perhaps, to review the translation and the

 9     accuracy in full of the English version.

10             Madam Registrar, you have already assigned a number to this

11     document which is marked for identification.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes.  It is Exhibit D103.  I just see the

13     transcript says 104, which is incorrect.  It's 103, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in connection with

16     volunteers, I only have another video-clip, so in accordance with what

17     you instruct us, we can either go through that video-clip or take our

18     break now and then I would be finished actually.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You'd be finished with your cross-examination?

20             MR. BAKRAC:  No, no.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I wondered what you were finished with, but

22     let's --

23             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, no, no.  I would have been done

24     with this subject on volunteers, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I suggest that we do that after the break.  We'll

Page 6957

 1     first have a break and we'll resume at five minutes past 4.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 3.39 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, you may proceed.

 5             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  Before I

 6     proceed, owing to the goodness of Mr. Laugel, the last document that we

 7     saw, D103, was replaced in the e-court and now it bears no stamp any

 8     more.

 9        Q.   Mr. Maksic, I would now like to play a video-clip that is four

10     minutes long and a couple of seconds more.  This is a celebration, and I

11     won't tell you where.  I would just ask you to pay attention to the site,

12     the place, and also the individuals that appear in the footage, and then

13     I will have a few questions for you after the video-clip has been shown.

14     So please pay attention to the place where this is transpiring, where

15     this is happening, and the individuals that are shown.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] Our blood drenched Serbian land."

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Maksic, we will pause here.  The last -- or, rather, the

20     speaker after Arkan, and we could agree that this is Arkan, could you

21     tell us who the other speaker was?

22        A.   The other speaker?  Well, the first one was Milan Martic, and the

23     other one is not familiar.

24        Q.   The person that we see on the screens before us, you don't know

25     him?

Page 6958

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Do you know that this is Sejdo Bajramovic, the then member of

 3     Presidency of the SFRY?

 4        A.   I do know that he was a member of the SFRY Presidency, but I

 5     never saw him.

 6        Q.   Can you recognise the location where this ceremony was held?

 7        A.   This was, in my view, in Golubic, at the camp.  This place looks

 8     like Golubic to me.  I --

 9        Q.   Could you recognise any of the military personnel there, anyone

10     from the Yugoslav People's Army?

11        A.   Well, I could see Colonel Ratko Mladic.  I recognised Hadzic,

12     although I've never seen him in person, but I did see him appearing on

13     television.  So I recognised those four individuals, Martic,

14     Ratko Mladic, Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, and one more person.

15        Q.   Well, let me try and help you.  Could you recognise Jugoslav

16     Kostic, also a member of the Presidency?

17        A.   Yes, that's correct, Jugoslav Kostic.  Well, I don't know exactly

18     what he was at the time, whether he was the president of the Presidency

19     or a member, but I'm not sure.

20        Q.   Are you referring to the Presidency of the Federal Republic of

21     Yugoslavia?

22        A.   Yes.  At that time, it was still a federal republic.

23        Q.   In other words, it was the Federal Socialist Republic of

24     Yugoslavia; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 6959

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, is it your intention to identify persons

 2     who we see, or is there any other matter which you would like to raise,

 3     because I take it that the presence of most of these people would be easy

 4     to -- to agree on with the Prosecution.  Why should we ask a witness

 5     whether he saw Mr. Mladic or whomever if that could be easily agreed

 6     upon?  So if there's any other matter that you'd like to raise, please do

 7     so.

 8             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just one -- or, rather,

 9     two more questions.

10        Q.   One was could you recognise any other officials of the Serbian

11     Krajina?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   In the footage that we've seen, did you see and recognise any

14     official of the Republic of Serbia MUP or the Republic of Serbia State

15     Security Service?

16        A.   No, I did not.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Maksic.  I would now like to go back -- but I see

18     Mr. Farr is on his feet.

19             MR. FARR:  I apologise for interrupting.  I just wanted to make

20     sure that the record was clear as to what video was being shown.  The ERN

21     is V000-6733, and a portion of that from 2 minutes and 45 seconds to 4

22     minutes and 38 seconds has been admitted as P14, but I believe that the

23     portion up to 2 minutes and 45 seconds is not yet in evidence.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll deal with the bookkeeping.  Mr. Bakrac will

25     have uploaded this, I take it, and will have specified it precisely.

Page 6960

 1     Let's not -- I'm already a bit concerned about what we did the last six

 2     or seven minutes.  The only thing, the location, fine, that's what the

 3     witness told us.  Everything else, it seems to me, was perfectly fit for

 4     to agree upon.  Who spoke, who's there, I mean, these are not matters for

 5     which we have to spend minutes and minutes in court, do we.  Please

 6     proceed, and try to get -- to elicit evidence -- to elicit evidence which

 7     assists us.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with all due respect,

10     if you just allow me another moment.  I was not present during the owing

11     statement made by the Prosecution, but I did look at their pre-trial

12     brief, and the subject matter or the gist of this -- these proceedings is

13     the involvement of representatives of the Serbian MUP.  Now, here we can

14     see members of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia Presidency who are

15     present in Golubic --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, fine, but why do we have to hear that from a

17     witness if you could agree on that?  Is there any dispute about the

18     person shown?  Is there any dispute about Mr. -- even some persons the

19     witness doesn't know personally, Mr. Hadzic.  Why spend time on that in

20     court?

21             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, is there any dispute about the persons

23     shown on this video on they are.

24             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, I personally don't know for every single

25     one of them, but we certainly could have agreed to most of those people.

Page 6961

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then that's what you're expected to do.  Tell

 2     the Prosecution we would like to show this.  We find it's relevant for

 3     this and this person.  We want the witness to tell us what the location

 4     is.  Do we agree on the persons appearing.  And then you sit together and

 5     you don't have to spend time on it in court.  It's a waste of time,

 6     unless there's anything else you would like to ask the witness about.

 7     Please proceed.

 8             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  We will do

 9     so in the future.

10        Q.   Mr. Maksic, I would like now to go back to what my learned friend

11     Mr. Jordash asked you about, namely the plea agreement for the late

12     Mr. Babic, paragraph 26.  First of all, I would like to ask you whether

13     it is true that sometime in the first half of 1991 Mr. Babic got in touch

14     with you and asked you to -- and tried to persuade you to come to the

15     Territorial Defence Staff, Krajina Territorial Defence Staff.

16        A.   Yes, that's correct.  He tried to get me there.

17        Q.   In the Belgrade area, could you tell us approximately how many

18     colonels there were in the Belgrade military area?

19        A.   I don't know.  There were quite a few of them, because the

20     command of the defence staff of the city of Belgrade was there.  The

21     chief -- the chiefs -- the military academy, the medical hospital was

22     there.  So there were a lot of colonels.  I don't know exactly the

23     number.

24        Q.   Could you please explain to us why it was that Mr. Babic asked

25     you personally, you particularly, and got in touch with you particularly

Page 6962

 1     in order to try to persuade you to come and assume that function in

 2     Krajina?

 3        A.   Well, while I was the commander of -- a regiment commander, I was

 4     in touch with a platoon commander.  He was a communications platoon

 5     commander, Kalicanin, and he got in touch with Dragus who was from

 6     Krajina and who was a resident of Belgrade.  I don't know what it was

 7     that they discussed, but Kalicanin probably proposed to him in view of

 8     the fact that the Belgrade Corps was --

 9        Q.   Sir, I appreciate what you are trying to tell us about, but could

10     you please be brief in your answers and just focus on my questions.  Why

11     did Babic ask you particularly to go there?

12        A.   Well, because in the Belgrade Corps I was considered -- not only

13     in the Belgrade Corps but also elsewhere I was considered to be an expert

14     on Territorial Defence because I had under my control most of the TO

15     units from the Belgrade Corps.

16        Q.   And this was sometime in June or July 1991 or before June or

17     July?

18        A.   Well, yes.  I believe I was taken to his sister's apartment in

19     Zemun, and we had a conversation of some hour or so.

20        Q.   We can agree, then, that paragraph 26 which you discussed with

21     Mr. Jordash, where it says that as of July 1991 Babic as the minister of

22     defence signed the orders to organise TO formations in Krajina and

23     appointed its commander.  In other words, what is stated there is

24     completely in accordance with what you're saying -- what you're telling

25     us here:  As of July and June Babic had been trying to contact personnel

Page 6963

 1     and find the appropriate people to go to Krajina.

 2        A.   Well, probably so, but I don't know.  He didn't say.

 3        Q.   Do you know whether Babic had good connections within the

 4     General Staff of the Yugoslav Army?

 5        A.   No, he did not.  If you're referring to the Chief of the General

 6     Staff and his collegium, then the answer is no.

 7        Q.   Sir, I would now like you to see a Prosecution document, 65 ter

 8     392.  65 ter 392, please.

 9             Sir, this is an order dated 8th of August, 1991.  Can you

10     recognise the stamp and signature of Dr. Milan Babic?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Can you see that on the 8th of August, 1991, he appointed

13     Milan Martic as the deputy commander of Territorial Defence, and then in

14     brackets it says "(armed forces) of the Krajina SAO."

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Is that in keeping with what was mentioned in Article 26 of the

17     plea agreement where Babic said that he had appointed on the 8th of

18     August, 1991, Milan Martic as deputy commander of Territorial Defence of

19     SAO Krajina and that at a later date he himself issued a decision whereby

20     he appointed himself as the commander of the TO forces in SAO Krajina?

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's request:  Could the counsel

22     please read a little more slowly, and could they make pause between

23     question and answer.

24             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   I will try to be briefer.  So in the plea agreement in paragraph

Page 6964

 1     26 it says that Mr. Babic, on the 1st of August, appointed himself as

 2     commander of the armed forces of Krajina SAO, including all Special

 3     Purpose Units in SAO Krajina and TO units, and that on the 8th of August,

 4     1991, Milan Babic appointed Milan Martic as deputy commander of the TO

 5     forces.

 6             Does this document confirm that?

 7        A.   Well, you see, there's something that is illogical here.  He is

 8     the commander of the armed forces of Krajina, and then he appoints Martic

 9     as deputy commander of Territorial Defence.  Now, who was the commander

10     of the TO?  So whose deputy is Milan Martic supposed to be?

11        Q.   Mr. Witness, that's precisely my point.  Now, you who were

12     there -- now, we see that this document is dated 8th of August.  You're

13     right there in September.

14        A.   On the 1st of October.

15        Q.   Do you know who was the commander of Territorial Defence?

16        A.   Well, no.  There was no commander because why would then Djujic

17     be sent there?  Why would he go there?

18        Q.   Do you allow the possibility then that Babic himself in his plea

19     agreement says that he was the commander of the armed forces and the TO

20     and that on the 8th of August he appointed Martic as his deputy?

21        A.   I really don't know anything about that, and I couldn't say

22     anything about it.

23             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to tender

24     this document into evidence.

25             MR. FARR:  No objection, Your Honour.

Page 6965

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D104, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, we spent a couple of minutes just to establish

 4     that there is a document which confirms in paragraph 26, isn't it?  Any

 5     dispute about that, Mr. Farr?

 6             MR. FARR:  No, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please come to ask focused questions which

 8     assist the Chamber.  I mean, if that is what Mr. Babic said in his plea

 9     agreement, if there is a clear order in which he says, "I appoint

10     Mr. Martic as deputy commander," then to ask does this confirm what is

11     found in the plea agreement, you don't need a witness, I could tell you

12     because this exactly says what is found in the plea agreement.  If there

13     are any issues as to who then was the commander, then focus on that

14     instead of asking useless questions on matters which you could easily

15     agree upon.  The document says it.

16             I mean -- Mr. Bakrac, we are here to be assisted by the evidence

17     of witnesses, not to spend time on not receiving anything in addition to

18     what we know already.  Please proceed.  Keep in mind that, as I always

19     say, that we'll closely monitor the way in which you use your time for

20     cross-examination, and we're for the going to grant you all the time you

21     asked for if you proceed in this way.  And that's true for the video.

22     That's true for this document.  So please get a clear focus on what

23     you're asking the witness.

24             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  Could we

25     now please see P965.  That is a document dated 18th September, 1991, sent

Page 6966

 1     to the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Serbia to

 2     General Colonel Simovic personally.  The document was sent by

 3     Minister Milan Martic, and it is a request for ammunition and other

 4     military equipment for the needs of the TO.

 5             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Excuse me.  What date are you

 6     referring to, the 18th of September?

 7             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Yes.

 9        A.   I don't know anything about this document.

10        Q.   Would you please take a look at page 1 now.

11             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see page 2.

12        Q.   Sir, I don't want to go through all the nine pages of this

13     document, but in essence, this is a request for ammunition and equipment

14     for the Territorial Defences of all the various municipal TO staffs.  Are

15     you familiar with this, that municipal TO staffs in SAO Krajina were

16     being armed by the Ministry of Defence of Serbia?

17        A.   Well, they were armed, but where the weapons came from, who had

18     sent it, that I don't know.

19             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  This is

20     already in evidence as P965.

21        Q.   Now, Witness, I would like to show you another document.

22             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we please pull up 65 ter --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please repeat the number.

24             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's P965.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, was there any dispute about the last

Page 6967

 1     document, that this is a request for ammunition and other armaments sent

 2     to -- and that was ...

 3             MR. FARR:  No, Your Honour, and this document was admitted

 4     yesterday, as Mr. Bakrac indicated.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And there's no dispute about the -- what it -- what

 6     it is and what it -- because the witness couldn't say anything about it.

 7     So therefore -- let's look at the next document.

 8             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but I did not know

 9     whether the witness knew anything about this document or not.  That's why

10     I was very brief in my question, and his answer was brief.

11        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, before we see the next document, let me ask you

12     this:  After the Vance Plan, after the 9th Corps withdrew from Krajina,

13     did it leave behind its weaponry and 90 per cent of its personnel?

14        A.   Well, I was not in Krajina at the time, but I know that it did

15     leave behind some of its weaponry, not all of it, and since the 9th Corps

16     was made up of mostly Krajina personnel, about 60 per cent of its

17     personnel was from Krajina, they just stayed behind.

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we now please see

19     65 ter 412.

20        Q.   Mr. Farr showed you this document, Witness, yesterday, and I

21     believe he discussed and asked you about payments and monies.  The

22     document reads:  The Republic of Serbia, Ministry of Defence.  The date

23     is the 1st of November, 1991.  It was signed for General Simovic by, as

24     far as I can remember, Mr. Kuzmanovic.  You recognise his signature.  And

25     now I would like to ask for page 6 of the annex, the attachment, where

Page 6968

 1     the manpower levels are mentioned, the number of men, members of the TO

 2     of Krajina is shown.

 3             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we please see page 6 of this

 4     document.  That's 65 ter -- if you just bear with me for a moment.  ERN

 5     number is 2129689 of this attachment that I would like to see.  That's

 6     page 7, please.

 7             Can we enlarge it a bit, please, so that the witness may see it.

 8        Q.   Mr. Maksic, under 1, operational area Knin, 12.000 men.  Do you

 9     see that?

10        A.   Operational zone Lika.  Let me just have a look.  There was no

11     operational zone Knin.  There was northern Dalmatia.  As for 12.000 men,

12     I don't know who it was that he took into account.  Was it the TO units

13     and MUP units?

14        Q.   Sir, I apologise.  Look at the title.  A table of the number of

15     personnel of the SAO Krajina, Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem TO.  So

16     we can clearly see that it's TO.  So you can see Knin 12.000.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Operational zone Lika, 5.500.

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Operational zone Kordun and Banja, 19.000.

21        A.   No, this isn't a good count.

22        Q.   You say that these numbers here are exaggerated.  So in your

23     view, what was the number?

24        A.   Well, 5 to 6.000.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Maksic.  Please be so kind as to tell us the

Page 6969

 1     following:  The special unit of the MUP of the Serbian Republic of

 2     Krajina, how many men did it have?

 3        A.   I don't know anything about it.  I don't know anything about a

 4     special unit.  I only heard of one, but I never saw it.  I don't know

 5     their head count, composition, or location.

 6        Q.   Do you recall, Mr. Maksic, giving a statement on the 29th and

 7     30th of August?  You had an interview with the OTP some five or six days

 8     ago, and under item 5 you say special unit of the MUP of Krajina did not

 9     have any tasks, nor did it take part in any of the operations.  You think

10     that members of this special unit did not have or undergo any special

11     training.  Is this what you told Mr. Farr a couple of days back?

12        A.   In relation of the special unit of MUP.

13        Q.   Yes.  "[In English] The special unit of the Krajina MUP did not

14     have any tasks or engage in any operations."

15        A.   I don't recall stating this.  If I did say this, then I was

16     wrong.  I did hear of a special unit existing, but as I say, I never saw

17     it, and I never heard of it carrying out a single task over the three

18     months.  I don't recall it ever being engaged within the 9th or 59th

19     Corps.  Did it really exist?  I don't know.  I never saw it, and I never

20     saw its establishment or composition.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Maksic, you've just explained to us that you

22     didn't know that they were engaged in any sort of operation or whether

23     they existed.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   You will recall giving a statement to the OTP in January of 2005;

Page 6970

 1     is that right?

 2        A.   I think that it happened in February of 2004.

 3        Q.   Well, the statement says the 25th and the 26th of January, 2005,

 4     Mr. Maksic.

 5        A.   As far as I remember, I was there in February of 2004, and if

 6     what -- if this is what the document says, then that must be the case.

 7     Then I must be mistaken.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Instead of quarreling about the exact date, I take

 9     it that this could be resolved.  Read to the witness what you want to put

10     to him.  Please proceed.

11             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Witness, in paragraph 40 of the statement, you said the special

13     unit of the MUP of SAO Krajina was stationed in Knin and was able to

14     operate throughout the territory of the Krajina.  It did not have a firm

15     structure, and it consisted of a group of between 30 and 50 men.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   So what I read out to you is correct.

18        A.   Yes, it's correct.

19        Q.   So you do know that a special unit existed.

20        A.   Well, they called it a special unit, but it was no special unit.

21     They were not specialists trained in special tasks.  That's why I said

22     that it was no special unit of any sort.  What I said was that the MUP of

23     Krajina styled it as a special unit, but my claim was that it only had

24     the between 30 to 50 men who were engaged where and as necessary.  If

25     needed, men from other police units of the various municipalities would

Page 6971

 1     be recruited in order to man this particular special unit, and when they

 2     were no longer required they would go back to their original

 3     municipalities.

 4        Q.   Mr. Maksic, as you stated a couple of days ago, during your stay

 5     there you had never heard of this unit ever being engaged in any action

 6     of any sort.

 7        A.   Yes, that's right.

 8        Q.   Tell me, in addition to this unit there existed municipal

 9     secretariats of the interior; is that right?

10        A.   I don't know about that.

11        Q.   Do you know what the manpower levels of the regular police force

12     were?

13        A.   I don't.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Witness, was Mr. Babic in command of the TO staff

15     while you were there?

16        A.   In formal and legal terms, yes, but in reality, no.

17             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we call up 2D213.  I need the

18     bottom part of it.  And this is the start of the document.

19        Q.   There is a place for the stamp which says -- the round stamp of

20     the SAO Krajina.  Dr. Milan Babic signed personally.  To the command of

21     the 3rd Operational Zone.  In other words, the order issued by the TO

22     staff to relocate 130-millimetre battery and to make them ready to fire

23     upon the target of Zagreb.

24             Are you familiar with this document wherein Milan Babic, the

25     commander of the armed forces, ordered the Territorial Defence, that's to

Page 6972

 1     say the command of the 3rd operational area, to fire upon Zagreb?

 2        A.   No.  On the 27th -- well, I had already gone by the 27th, and I

 3     only returned on the 28th to hand over my duties.  So I wasn't in the

 4     Krajina at the time.  However, at the time, the 9th Corps was still

 5     deployed in its area of responsibility.  I don't think that anyone

 6     resubordinated a rocket system, as is stated here cannons --

 7        Q.   A 130-millimetre battery.

 8        A.   Yes, to fire upon Zagreb.  Where would Babic have found a

 9     130-millimetre battery if the 9th Corps was still in its area of

10     responsibility?

11        Q.   Mr. Maksic, please have a look.  It seems that Babic issues an

12     order to the command of the 3rd operational area.

13        A.   Yes, but whose operational zone is this?  I don't think that

14     Babic wrote this.  I think somebody wrote it for him.  He didn't even

15     sign it.  It doesn't have a stamp.  There existed two operational areas.

16     One was that of Banja and Kordun, and the other that of Lika and Northern

17     Dalmatia.

18        Q.   Mr. Maksic, did you not in your earlier statement speak of the

19     existence of three operational areas?

20        A.   No.  Well, there existed three or four operational zones or areas

21     which were then joined.  They were transformed.  But at the time I was

22     there, there were two operational areas.

23        Q.   Mr. Maksic, it is possible that this document is the cause of

24     confusion.  In the footnote it says that Milan Babic signed the document

25     himself and that the document bore a round stamp which said "Knin TO

Page 6973

 1     staff."  Did you have such a round stamp which said "Knin TO staff"?

 2        A.   Yes, we did.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours can we have this

 5     documented admitted into evidence, please.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Isn't this one out of the series that should be

 7     marked for identification.

 8             MR. BAKRAC:  MFI'd.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, MFI'd.

10             Madam Registrar, I think we got stuck at D1 --

11             MR. BAKRAC:  Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I did not decide.  D104 is admitted into evidence,

13     and then the next document shown and not yet admitted into evidence was?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D105 MFI, Your Honours.

15             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Mr. Maksic, can you explain to us what were units attached to the

17     staff, what do they mean?

18        A.   Well, they are units in service of the staff.  They provide for

19     the vehicles, food supplies.  They make arrangements for accommodation,

20     and then they also include various speciality unit such as transport

21     unit, communications unit, et cetera.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Maksic.  We don't have much time.

23             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we call up 65 ter 3967.

24        Q.   Mr. Maksic, while we're waiting for the document to appear, are

25     you familiar with the name of Milos Pupovac?

Page 6974

 1        A.   Yes, I know him very well.

 2        Q.   Who was he?

 3        A.   Assistant for logistics in the command of the defence for the

 4     city of Belgrade.  He hails from a village close to Knin.

 5        Q.   Mr. Maksic, please look at the stamp in the upper left-hand

 6     corner.  Does it state there the Serbian Autonomous District of the

 7     Krajina, Territorial Defence Staff, and then reference numbers and the

 8     date of the 16th of December, and then it says Knin.  Is this the stamp

 9     belonging to your staff?

10        A.   Yes, it is.

11        Q.   Herein the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Serbia is

12     requested to provide ammunition, various types of vehicles, and you can

13     see what is listed here, materiel assets.  It is signed by

14     Colonel Pupovac, and the stamp belonging to your staff is affixed here.

15        A.   On the 16th of December --

16        Q.   Yes.

17        A.   I think that Milos Pupovac only arrived there on the 27th of

18     December.  As I was about to set out from Knin, Milos Pupovac had just

19     arrived.  I don't see how he could have signed this document.

20             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we scroll the document to the

21     bottom.  Can we see the signature and the stamp.

22             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] The stamp is all right, as is the

23     signature.

24             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation].

25        Q.   Therefore, can you tell us, do you know -- did you, as a TO staff

Page 6975

 1     for the purposes of the units attached to your staff, receive these

 2     assets from the ministry of defence of Republika Srpska?

 3        A.   No, we did not receive anything.  We were also supposed to

 4     formulate Martic's requirements.  We also reduced them, and we only

 5     received from the Ministry of Defence some 30 --

 6        Q.   Telephone sets.  You told us about it yesterday.

 7        A.   Nothing else.

 8        Q.   Mr. Maksic, you said that you copied Martic's requests.  And

 9     please pause there.  I want to finish my question.  The moment you got

10     there and set up the TO staff in Knin, Milan Martic no longer had

11     anything to do with Territorial Defence; is that right?

12        A.   I didn't set up the staff.  It was General Djujic who was the

13     commander who set it up.  I was just the head of the training department.

14     So we set up the staff, and by that point Mr. Martic was minister of the

15     interior.

16        Q.   And no longer deputy of the TO commander.

17        A.   No.  He dropped by my office on a couple of occasions, but he

18     never interfered with the work of the staff.  The staff comprised the

19     four of us.  I've already said that.

20        Q.   But evidently you did have units attached to your staff?

21        A.   Well, we tried to set them up, but we did not have enough

22     manpower.

23        Q.   Now that you've mentioned manpower, can we look at 2D207, please.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, one question.  Your -- your questions

25     about the signature of Mr. Pupovac, was that a mistake or ...

Page 6976

 1             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  This was due to

 2     the facts that Mr. Maksic had his suspicions about the date, but he did

 3     confirm Mr. Pupovac's signature and the stamp.  I forgot to ask that the

 4     document be tendered into evidence.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I now see it, yes.

 6             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Can I say something?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, it's -- it's on e-court.  It's a

 8     six-page document.  That, of course -- apparently you're dealing only

 9     with the first two pages; is that correct?

10             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that there is some confusion as to whether

12     the transcript reflects that I did admit into evidence D104, and

13     that's -- ask the witness to look at 2D207.  Please proceed.

14             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes.  Before the document appears on

15     our screen, I would like to revert back to the earlier document.

16        Q.   So the units attached to the staff are military police units,

17     sabotage units, et cetera, and you say that these units were never

18     formed?

19        A.   No.  Not a single one of them.  We had the total of 20 men who

20     stayed there for 28 hours alone and that only because there was an

21     allowance that was still due to them.  Thereupon they left, and we had no

22     resources to make sure that they stayed with us.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Maksic.  Let us look at 2D207 now.  This is

24     another document which is an excerpt from a book.  I'm telling you this

25     so that there arises no confusion.  And according to this book,

Page 6977

 1     Dusan Kasim signed this.  Was he a Chief of Staff?

 2        A.   Yes, he was a Chief of Staff.

 3        Q.   We don't see this in B/C/S, 2D207.

 4             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  What I see is that in English 285 -- 285 appears at

 6     the top of the page.  And on the Serbian side we have to move to the next

 7     page, I take it.  In --

 8             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  You're right.

 9     It's the next page.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Now would I like to have back in the English version

11     with 285 on top of the page.

12             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] And I would like the Serbian version

13     to be enlarged for the benefit of the witness.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, this is not exactly, for one reason or

15     another -- English and B/C/S seems to be twinned more or less.  The

16     English version is right now, and now we need -- yes.  Could the B/C/S

17     version be enlarged.

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Maksic, are you able to read this?  What we have is again a

20     letter from the TO staff in Knin on the 11th of December, 1991, at the

21     time you were there for Colonel Vukosavljevic.  It's an overview of

22     independent units of the TO which are manoeuvre units in character as per

23     Municipal Staffs.  The Knin TO Municipal Staff numbers two brigades with

24     1.328 men each; is this right?

25        A.   No.

Page 6978

 1        Q.   Is there a reason for you to suspect that Mr. Dusan Kasum, your

 2     Chief of Staff would falsify the information, or is it the case perhaps

 3     that on this date he was not privy to the number of men in the TO unit?

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness repeat his answer.

 5        A.   Two thousand six hundred and fifty-six.  Since he dealt with this

 6     business he gathered a list of 2.000 men.  Actually, what he did was he

 7     made up a list of 2.000 men who did not exist in effect in order to be

 8     able to put in a request for assets.

 9        Q.   Look at this, Mr. Maksic, please focus.  It says Municipal Staff

10     Knin of Territorial Defence, and it says that it's got 2.000 men -- or,

11     rather, in -- in total.  So it's not your staff.  It's the staff -- the

12     Municipal Staff of TO Knin.

13        A.   Well, that Municipal Staff did not have a single company while I

14     was there.  And this is during my time is there, is it not.

15        Q.   Yes.  And your Chief of Staff wrote this to the Ministry of

16     Defence of Serbia.  In other words, he was falsifying information.

17        A.   This isn't true.  No, this isn't correct.  In the town proper --

18     or as it -- in relation to towns, it was only in Benkovac that we were

19     able to set up a staff, and it was resubordinated to the 9th Corps.  I

20     think that the commander's name was Djurica.

21        Q.   So is it your testimony that in Knin there did not exist a single

22     TO company?

23        A.   That's true for the Municipal Staff in Knin.  There we did not

24     have a single unit.  So we're not talking about the TO staff.  We're

25     talking about the Knin Municipal Staff.  They did not have a single TO

Page 6979

 1     unit.

 2        Q.   Mr. Maksic, a moment ago I showed you an overview totaling 37.000

 3     men, and you said that this was an exaggeration.  Then you volunteered

 4     your estimate as to how many men the TO Krajina had.  Can you repeat that

 5     number?

 6        A.   Well, I don't know how many men there were.  I think 5 to 6.000

 7     in all.  If both of these zones together, and I found a piece of

 8     information --

 9        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  You said 6 to 7.000.  Did you say 5 to 6.000

10     or 6 to 7.000?

11        A.   Six to 7.000.  I don't know exactly.  Don't hold me to that, but

12     it didn't have more than what I said.  And I'm referring to the TO

13     municipal staffs.

14        Q.   These 7.000 members of Territorial Defence, who were they

15     subordinated to?

16        A.   These were municipal staffs of Territorial Defence, and they were

17     subordinated to the president of the municipality concerned.  The

18     commander of the TO staff is subordinated to the president of the

19     municipality where he is.

20        Q.   In other words, the document where the municipality of Petrinja

21     subordinated Arkan to the TO staff was a legitimate one, was it not?

22        A.   Well, in my 42-year career, I never came across something like

23     that.

24        Q.   Well, you just said that a TO staff is under the command of the

25     president of the municipality.  What does it mean, that he can issue

Page 6980

 1     commands and resubordinate?

 2        A.   Yes, but through the TO staff in Krajina.  He should have sent

 3     Arkan's volunteers to the staff, and he should have asked the TO Krajina

 4     staff for their approval of the resubordination of these volunteers.

 5     What they did instead was they would subordinate these men without the

 6     knowledge of the TO staff.  They bypassed it.  That was the problem.

 7        Q.   Did the 9th Corps resubordinate Territorial Defence directly or

 8     through your staff?

 9        A.   No.  The 9th Corps resubordinated Territorial Defence in the area

10     of combat in which it happened to be directly through municipal staffs

11     and not through the Krajina TO staff.  To put it simply, the military

12     procedure as envisaged under command and control was not complied with.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can this 2D document that we've just

15     looked at be admitted into evidence of -- or, rather, MFI'd, 2D207.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's first go back for a second to 65 ter 3967,

17     which is the six-pages document where apparently you used the two first

18     pages only.  Can we have that document marked for identification so that

19     you check -- check whether that's -- we need the whole of the document or

20     two pages.

21             Mr. Farr.

22             MR. FARR:  I believe that 3967 was admitted yesterday as P961.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we verify that.  That seems to be correct, so

24     therefore that leaves no decision to be taken on that.

25             Then the last document that was 2D207, Madam Registrar, could you

Page 6981

 1     assign a number for -- so that it's marked for identification.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D106, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

 4             Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.

 5             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'm now moving that

 6     2D207 be MFI'd.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that's what we just did, so please proceed.

 8             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I apologise, Your

 9     Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I had forgotten to activate my microphone.  I said

11     that that's what we just had done.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

14        Q.   Witness, please take a look at document 65 ter 447.  This is a

15     document dated the 9th of October, 1991.  If you're unable to read it, I

16     shall try -- look at the stamp and at the signature.  Do you recognise

17     Dr. Babic's signature?

18        A.   It is Babic's signature, and it is the government of Krajina

19     stamp.

20        Q.   This is an order from the 9th of October, 1991.  All militia

21     units in the area of the Serbian autonomous region of Krajina shall be in

22     planning and carrying out combat tasks shall be resubordinated to the

23     competent officers, to the competent officer of the Territorial Defence.

24     Can you see that?

25        A.   No.  No.  It is fuzzy.  The way it is typewritten, I'm unable to

Page 6982

 1     read it.

 2        Q.   All right.  But were you aware of the fact that on the 9th of

 3     October, 1991, Dr. Milan Babic issued an order resubordinating militia

 4     police units in the area of the Serbian autonomous region of Krajina to

 5     the commanders of the Territorial Defence of the municipal organs, that

 6     is?

 7        A.   No, I am not aware of this order, of the existence of this order,

 8     and apart from that it could not have been executed according to the law.

 9     I mean, police units could not have been resubordinated, subordinated to

10     the Territorial Defence organs.  That had not been possible at that time

11     according to the law and regulations.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I move that this

14     document be admitted into evidence.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, you refer to the municipal authorities.

16     Let me just check exactly what you said, something I do not read in the

17     document itself, is it.  The commanders of --

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] It is my mistake --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That was your mistake.  Okay.  Then Madam Registrar,

20     the number would be?

21             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit D107, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  D107 is admitted into evidence.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

25        Q.   Witness, please let us take a look now at 65 ter 3900.  This is a

Page 6983

 1     document -- it will appear on the screen shortly, but I'm making use of

 2     this time until it is.  This is a document of the Territorial Defence

 3     Staff of Obrovac, the 7th of October, 1991, and it is a report of the

 4     municipal Territorial Defence Staff commander.

 5             First of all, do you know that Captain First Class Jovo Dopudja

 6     was the commander of this Territorial Defence Staff?

 7        A.   Yes, I do, and I know him.

 8        Q.   Is what is written in this report correct, Mr. Maksic; namely,

 9     that the Territorial Defence of Obrovac had two TO detachments, one

10     police unit and a special unit, and two independent companies?

11        A.   No, that is not correct.

12        Q.   That the militia unit, the police unit, had 92 troops and 10 men

13     from the military police and that a special unit had 25 soldiers?  Is

14     that correct?

15        A.   No.  This was written by Jovo Dopudja and nothing in this is

16     correct.  What did the business did the JNA military police have being in

17     the TO?

18        Q.   All right.

19             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]  Can we now see the second page,

20     Your Honours, to see the signature and the stamp to verify whether the

21     document is authentic, i.e., whether the witness can recognise the stamp

22     and the signature.

23        Q.   Do you see, sir, the signature and the stamp?  Do you doubt that

24     this was written by Jovo Dopudja, captain first class, commander of the

25     Territorial Defence?

Page 6984

 1        A.   I do not doubt that he wrote this because only someone like him

 2     could have written something like this.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we move that this

 5     document be admitted into the file.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  The number would be.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit D108, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  D108 is admitted into evidence, and to the extent

 9     the transcript leaves any doubt as to D107, that was admitted into

10     evidence as well.  Please proceed.

11             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we have now the 65 ter 4316

12     called up on the screen.

13        Q.   Witness, until it appears on the screen, this appears to be a

14     report on the work of the TO of Benkovac municipality of the 25th of

15     November, 1991, at exactly the time when you were in the Krajina.

16             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we see the second page in both

17     English and B/C/S, please.

18        Q.   Have you seen the first page?  Do you see the first page, namely

19     the date and the stamp?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Look at the second page.  I shall read for you the first

22     paragraph from the top which says:  "In the beginning of November -- in

23     early November, the Krajina SAO TO staff issued an order to form a TO

24     brigade from the manpower and materiel resources of Benkovac TO.  By 5

25     November 1991, it was staffed by men in line with establishment.  It

Page 6985

 1     received professional leadership and, through a constant supply of

 2     materiel and manpower, was fully equipped to carry out the assignments

 3     ordered it by the Krajina SAO TO staff and the 9th Corps command."

 4             Is what I've read to you correct?

 5        A.   Yes, everything but one thing, namely that that brigade,

 6     immediately after having been set up, and I personally was present during

 7     its establishment at the review, it was supposed to be subordinated to

 8     the TO staff, and logistically -- in logistic terms it was completely

 9     equipped by the 9th Corps.  Colonel Ratko Mladic was also there.  At that

10     very moment it was resubordinated to the 9th Corps.  It became part of

11     its composition so that we did not have the right to command that

12     brigade.  It was, namely, excluded from our formation and resubordinated

13     to the 9th Corps.

14        Q.   If I understood you correctly, you said although it was a

15     Territorial Defence brigade, it was resubordinated to the 9th Corps.

16        A.   Yes, which, as a matter of fact, was feasible under the then

17     rules, military rules.

18        Q.   And Lakic Zoran, Zoran Lakic, was the commander?

19        A.   Yes, Zoran Lakic was the commander, and before him it was Djujic.

20             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I move that this

21     document be admitted.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's comment:  Could the speakers

23     please not overlap.

24             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Tell me, this --

Page 6986

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- Mr. Bakrac, you asked me -- you asked the

 2     Bench to admit it into evidence and the interpreters asked you not to

 3     overlap.

 4             Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D109, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  109 is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed.

 7             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.  I was

 8     receiving suggestions from my client at that moment so I wasn't -- remiss

 9     slightly.

10        Q.   Mr. Maksic, while we are on this document, is it true that this

11     territorial defence brigade comprised a unit -- a Special Purpose Unit?

12        A.   No, Dusan Kasum actually set up this brigade, and no such Special

13     Purpose Unit was part of the establishment.  If after the resubordination

14     the 9th Corps changed something I don't know anything about that.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] May I ask Your Honours --

17        Q.   Witness, tell me, when you were giving your statement in 2005, is

18     it true that at a certain point you stated that in the area of Krajina at

19     the end of 1991, when you were there the situation was partly chaotic and

20     that the reason for the chaos were the poor relations between Babic and

21     Martic?

22        A.   That is correct, but I didn't say partly.  I didn't put any such

23     reservation in respect of my statement.  The situation was chaotic,

24     period, not partly.

25        Q.   And what was the reason for this chaos?

Page 6987

 1        A.   In our assessment, it was disagreements between the staff and in

 2     practice the disagreements between Mr. Martic and Mr. Babic, because they

 3     just couldn't see eye-to-eye.  They could not establish proper relations,

 4     and it was in our interest to establish a single command throughout the

 5     territory including with the Territorial Defence.

 6        Q.   Mr. Maksic, I shall now try to go through this subject matter

 7     quickly without documents.  I have worked in some military cases, so I

 8     know the distinction between action and operation.  Action is at the

 9     level of Tactical Group -- I mean operation, and an action is at a lower

10     level.

11        A.   Up to the regiment -- regiment and brigades, they execute combat

12     actions, and it is corps that excuse operations.  That involves a wide

13     front line, from 20 to 50 kilometres, and the others from 15 to 20

14     kilometres.  So combat actions up to brigade level and operations are

15     executed by corps and higher-level units.  Actions are carried out by

16     individuals or groups.

17        Q.   Witness, is it true that in the statement which I just referred

18     to a while ago, in 2005 you stated that the Yugoslav People's Army, at

19     the time when you were in the Krajina, was in charge of military

20     operations and the M-U-P, the MUP, was in charge of maintaining law and

21     order outside military operations?

22        A.   Exactly.  That is what I stated.

23        Q.   Mr. Maksic, are you familiar with action or operation, and you

24     shall tell me what the correct term is, which took place on the 7th,

25     i.e., 12th of November against Saborsko?

Page 6988

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   You never heard of that military action?

 3        A.   No, never.

 4        Q.   Have you heard of a military action -- the military action in

 5     November 1991 against Skabrnja?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   And did you hear of any action -- a military action carried out

 8     on the 21st of December against the village of Bruska?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   And have you heard of an action in the village of Poljana or more

11     precisely the hamlet of Vukovic?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Have you heard of an action on or about the 7th of October in the

14     villages of Bacini and Cerovljani.

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Have you heard at all about these places?  That will be my first

17     question.

18        A.   I have heard of some of them and I haven't heard of others.

19        Q.   Which ones have you heard of?

20        A.   Cerovljani, Saborsko, and some other smaller places or villages.

21     I have heard of them and seen them on the map.

22        Q.   Have you heard of Bacin and Cerovljani?

23        A.   Of Cerovljani, yes, and this other one, no.

24        Q.   And what about Poljana and Lipovaca?

25        A.   No.

Page 6989

 1        Q.   Saborsko?

 2        A.   Saborsko, yes.

 3        Q.   And Skabrnja?

 4        A.   I have heard about Skabrnja.

 5        Q.   And Bruska?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Now you have actually clarified for us what places you've heard

 8     of and what places you have not heard of.  Let us repeat.  You did not

 9     hear that the JNA troops or Territorial Defence Staff -- units had any

10     military actions in any of these places?

11        A.   No, I didn't hear about that, but I will tell you something else:

12     We do not actually remember those villages.  We have topographical maps.

13     You do not have to remember every single village.  But the 9th Corps did

14     execute a --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's not repeat everything.  If the witness

16     wants to add anything to what he said before, fine.  And I think I just

17     interrupted you, "The 9th Corps did execute a --" tell us in one line

18     what they executed.

19             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] It executed an operation.  The

20     9th Corps against Zadar.  I believe that that took place sometime in

21     mid-November --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know whether Mr. Bakrac is interested to

23     know.  If he is, then he will put specific questions on that matter.

24             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I believe

25     that it is time for our break so that I can actually focus on my

Page 6990

 1     questions and fulfil my promise, finish within the allotted time, in

 2     other words.  I believe that I have another 35 minutes.  At least that is

 3     my estimate.  Up to the three hours assigned me.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I earlier said we will monitor closely.  After the

 6     break you'll have another 20 minutes, Mr. Bakrac, and we have considered

 7     the way in which you used your time in cross-examination.  We'd like to

 8     restart at five minutes to 6.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 5.34 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, your 20 minutes have now started.

12     Please proceed.

13             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Maksic, you told us a moment ago during the last session that

15     the 9th Corps command directly resubordinated TO units to the JNA;

16     correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we now please

19     have in e-court 2D196.

20        Q.   Mr. Maksic, this is a document dated 11th of November, 1991,

21     while you were there, and in the heading it says the SAO Krajina TO

22     staff, and then it says "To the Staff Command."

23             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we please blow-up the B/C/S

24     version.

25        Q.   And then it goes on to say:

Page 6991

 1             "In order ensure a single command and control over all forces in

 2     its area of responsibility, at the request of the 9th Corps command I

 3     hereby order.

 4              "In order to prepare, organise, and carry out combat activities,

 5     the following units shall be resubordinated to the 9th Corps command."

 6             And then it says "TO brigade."  Can you see that?

 7        A.   Yes, I can.

 8        Q.   Can you also see the Knin TO brigade?

 9        A.   Yes, I can.

10        Q.   That's under 1.4 -- it's the fourth.  Knin TO Brigade, Golubic,

11     Kosovo, and Cetina Detachments.

12        A.   That's okay, but I can't find the Knin Brigade.

13        Q.   Well, below Benkovac TO it says Knin TO Brigade.  Can you see

14     that?

15        A.   I see Benkovac Brigade -- Knin Brigade.  Yes, I can see that.

16        Q.   Mr. Maksic, did the Knin Brigade exist or not?

17        A.   No, it did not.

18        Q.   All right.  Let's go on to page 2.

19             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we please see page 2 of this

20     document.

21        Q.   Sir, on page 2 we see place for a stamp, and then in footnote it

22     says -- A round ministry of defence SAO Krajina stamp, commander

23     Lieutenant Colonel General Ilija Djujic, and then it says signed -- was

24     he the commander of your staff?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 6992

 1        Q.   Now, please tell us two things.  For one, why would the

 2     commander, your superior, Ilija Djujic lie about the existence of the

 3     Knin Brigade; and two, doesn't this prove that resubordination was done

 4     through your staff and not through the 9th Corps and then directly to the

 5     TO municipal staffs?

 6        A.   Well, first of all, this is the first time that I see this order.

 7     That's for one.  For two:  If the commander kept it to himself and did

 8     not inform the other members of the staff, that is his own decision.

 9     Also, the TO staff commander, Djujic, even had he wanted to, he couldn't

10     lie to the commander of the 9th Corps.

11        Q.   Which implies then that there was a TO Knin in existence.

12        A.   Well, the TO Knin was in existence but the brigade was not.  The

13     TO staff did exist, but there was no TO Knin Brigade.

14        Q.   Sir, the Knin Brigade, that's what it reads there.  So are you

15     telling us that Ilija Djujic is lying or what?

16        A.   He's lying, yes.

17             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to tender

18     this document into evidence.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

20             Madam Registrar.

21             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, this is one of the ones that we were

22     going to deal with as MFI, I believe.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's one of the series.  Okay.

24             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

25             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D110, Your Honours.

Page 6993

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  D110 is marked for identification.

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 3        Q.   Sir, tell me, please, how many men did the 9th Corps number, do

 4     you know?

 5        A.   That's something I don't know.

 6        Q.   Well, could you give us an approximate figure?  You were there.

 7        A.   Well, I can speculate.  Theoretically per establishment I can

 8     tell you how many men should be in the corps, but no corps has the same

 9     manpower level.  It would depend on the axis from which the enemy is

10     expected and so on.

11        Q.   Well, sir, we don't have any time here for theory.  Please just

12     answer my question.

13        A.   Well, I'm just telling you that I don't know how many men it had,

14     and very few people would know it anyway, that kind of information.  It

15     would be the corps commander and perhaps his closest associates.

16        Q.   Well, what is the standard?  How many men would a corps have?

17        A.   Well, that's not how we did that.  We actually went into figuring

18     out how many regiments and brigades a corps contained.

19        Q.   Well, could you please transfer that or translate that into

20     numbers.  You're an experienced officer.

21        A.   Well, the Knin Corps should have had per establishment about

22     12.000 men.

23        Q.   The Knin Corps alone?

24        A.   Yes, just the Knin Corps.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Maksic, let us now look at another document,

Page 6994

 1     65 ter 3917.  Please look at this document and tell us is it familiar.

 2     It says in the heading 9th Corps command.  The date is the 12th of

 3     October, which is the time when you were there, and then the title is

 4     "Combatting Crime in the Zone of Combat Activities of the 9th Corps,"

 5     sent to the command of the 1st TO Partisan Brigade.  Did such a brigade

 6     exist?

 7        A.   Could you tell me what date this is?

 8        Q.   The 22nd of October, 1991.

 9        A.   No.  That's not true.  There was not a single Partisan Brigade.

10        Q.   Not the 5th either?

11        A.   Not a single one in that area while I was there existed.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  20th of October.

13             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Sir, let us just take a look at the second page just to

15     authenticate this document.  Please take a look at the stamp there and

16     let me ask you, did you have occasion to see General Vukovic's signature?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we please blow-up the stamp

19     and the signature.

20             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Well, I can see it says the

21     9th Corps command, and, yes, that is Vukovic.

22             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Well, judging by the stamp and the signature, would you say this

24     is an authentic document?

25        A.   Yes, it's authentic.

Page 6995

 1        Q.   Can we go back to the first page.

 2        A.   Well, this document was sent to an existing unit.

 3        Q.   Mr. Maksic please take a look at page 1.  We will have it on the

 4     monitors in a moment.  It says here:

 5             "Commands of the JNA and TO units are obliged to organise an

 6     updated register of all members of their units including volunteers and

 7     members of the TO from certain towns and put all those armed forces under

 8     the command of JNA units at the level of regiment-brigade in the area of

 9     responsibility where those units are engaged.  All members of armed

10     forces are to be forewarned on the repercussions of violent behaviour,

11     arbitrary behaviour, and engagement in crime."

12             Are you familiar with this order?

13        A.   No.  I have haven't read it, but I consider it authentic, because

14     one -- there's just one thing that I would like to point out here.  It

15     says here "In the area of responsibility where those units are active."

16     So mind that.  It says "within the area of responsibility."

17        Q.   Now, take a look at the second sentence.  It says:

18             "At the level of regiment-brigade in the area of responsibility

19     of those units, these units shall be formed from its own ranks, and they

20     will form platoons to protect citizens and property in local communes and

21     detachment."

22             Was that formed?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   You said in the area of responsibility.  Is that what it said?

25        A.   Well, no.  Actually, an area of responsibility is one thing, and

Page 6996

 1     the area of combat operations is something else.  The area of

 2     responsibility is a wider term implying a wider area, whereas an area of

 3     operations is a more narrow territory.  So you can have an area of

 4     responsibility - I'll try to put it simply - of this courtroom, and then

 5     the area of combat activities just in this one corner.

 6        Q.   Now, please take a look at the next one.  It says:

 7             "In carrying out this order, the city command's attached to

 8     municipal and -- shall adhere in everything to the instruction on the use

 9     of units of the Territorial Defence."

10             Is that something that was obligatory?

11        A.   Yes, all of it.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the counsel please

13     slow down a bit.

14             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Could we now please move on to item 5.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You're invited to slow down a bit for the

17     interpreters.

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters.  I

19     will do my best.

20        Q.   Could we now please have page 2, and I will now read out for you

21     item 5 on page 2.

22             "Perpetrators of criminal activities shall from the jurisdiction

23     of the military court are to be arrested and through the police of the

24     commands of the regiments brigades of the JNA to be escorted to the

25     military police in Knin."

Page 6997

 1             Are you familiar with this?

 2        A.   No, but I believe that's how it was.

 3        Q.   Item -- paragraph 6:

 4             "Military court and the Prosecutor's Office from Zagreb with a

 5     seat in Banja Luka are to take all measures of increased criminal

 6     responsibility as per expedient proceedings against all perpetrators of

 7     crimes."

 8             Did you know that there was a military court in Banja Luka?

 9        A.   No.  This is the first time that I hear of it.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender

12     this document into evidence.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

14             Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D111, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  D111 is admitted into evidence.

17             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Maksic, please tell us, and I believe you've also given this

19     evidence in an earlier trial, in the area of combat operations, who is

20     competent -- or under whose jurisdiction is it to prosecute crimes that

21     are committed in that area?

22        A.   Well, that would be by the military court.  Each corps has a

23     battalion of military police, and any member of the armed forces, member

24     of that unit, if they were to commit a criminal offence, they would be

25     arrested and handed over to the competent authorities, in other words,

Page 6998

 1     the military court.

 2        Q.   Witness, please take a look at another document, 2D204.  And I

 3     will soon be completing my cross-examination.

 4             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] As I've already said, that's 2D204.

 5     Could we please pull it up.

 6        Q.   Witness, please look at this document.  That's an order issued by

 7     the 9th Corps command, dated the 6th of December, 1991, and it is an

 8     order to set up the Drnis command post, and it says to command of the

 9     Krajina SAO staff:  "It is ordered as follows:  The command of Drnis

10     shall be established, and the commander will be

11     Lieutenant-Colonel Oreskovic Stevo," and then on.

12             And then under 2 it says:  "A platoon of military police shall be

13     responsible for law and order as well as the TO platoon from Knin and one

14     TO -- one platoon -- Military Police Platoon from the TO Krajina."

15             Are you familiar with this document?  Do you know that

16     Mr. Vukovic, as the corps commander, established in Drnis on the 6th of

17     December some authority -- authorities and determined --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please repeat his question.

19        A.   This is the first time that I see this order, but it is possible.

20     Prior to this, I was in Drnis on two occasions, and there were only three

21     families in that town.  That town was absolutely deserted.  There were

22     two Serbian families and one Croatian.  The whole town was empty.  And

23     probably in order to prevent looting of private homes and other buildings

24     this order was issued on the 6th of December to that end, and I have to

25     say that this is the first time that I see it, but it is authentic, and

Page 6999

 1     it is correct.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, I think one of your questions was not

 3     caught by the interpreters.  Your last question.  Could you please repeat

 4     the question.

 5             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me just check what

 6     question that was.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You said:  "Are you familiar with this document?  Do

 8     you know that Mr. Vukovic as the corps commander established in Drnis on

 9     the 6th of December some authority -- authorities, and determined --" and

10     there it stops.  You're requested to repeat what then followed.

11             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

12        Q.   And determine who would be responsible for law and order, and to

13     that end he determined that it would be a platoon of the TO and a

14     Military Police Platoon, that they would be in charge of maintaining law

15     and order.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently the witness has understood your question.

17     It's just for the completeness of the transcript.

18             Could you wind up in the next two minutes, Mr. Bakrac.

19             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have one document

20     left to show to the witness and another question that I wish to put to

21     the witness in private session, and it has to do with what we -- the

22     communication received from the Prosecution today.

23             Can we call up 2D203, please.

24        Q.   Witness, you told us that you didn't know, and this is to remind

25     you.  The 3rd of December, 1991, military prosecutor's office in Banja

Page 7000

 1     Luka.

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] 2D203, Your Honours.  Can we turn to

 3     the next page.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  B/C/S next page.

 5             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Witness, look at the top of the document.  It says military

 7     prosecutor's office.  The date is the 3rd of December, 1991.  The place

 8     is Banja Luka.  This is a report for the month of November intended for

 9     the military prosecutor's office of the JNA.

10             Can we look at the second page.  I would like to ask you if you

11     are aware of this, and can we establish that the military prosecutor's

12     office in Banja Luka was operational and that it had jurisdiction over

13     the Knin area as well.  Can we look at page 2, please, and I wish to

14     directed your attention to the second-but-last paragraph.

15             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page, please,

16     in the B/C/S.

17        Q.   Dusan Raskovic, a reserve soldier from VP 9570 Knin has been

18     indicted.  Are you familiar with the military post and are you aware of

19     this?

20        A.   Well, I do recall the military post, but I do not recall this

21     individual, Raskovic being indicted.  From my position, this was a matter

22     of insignificance to me.

23        Q.   Well, I'm not asking you about the specific individual.  Of

24     course I don't expect you to know anything about it, but is it true that

25     Knin had the military post 9570?

Page 7001

 1        A.   I don't recall what the military post of Knin was.

 2        Q.   Thank you, then.

 3             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, would I like to move

 4     that this document be MFI'd, and can we move into private session for

 5     another question?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the --

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D112 MFI, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  D112 is marked for identification.

 9             We move into private session.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 7002

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, any need to re-examine the witness?

15             MR. FARR:  Just a few minutes, Your Honour.

16                           Re-examination by Mr. Farr:

17        Q.   Mr. Maksic, today you were shown a clip from a video which is 65

18     ter 4657.  I would now like to ask Mr. Laugel to show a still from that

19     video.  This is time code 1 minute and 46 seconds, and it is now on

20     Sanction.  It should appear on the screen in front of you.

21             Are you able to recognise the person whose picture is circled in

22     the image on the screen in front of you?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   All right.  In today's transcript, and -- we're done with that

25     image, thank you.

Page 7003

 1             Today's transcript, at page 22, you were asked by Mr. Bakrac:

 2             "According to the rules of combat and based on what you just told

 3     us, people who came from the Serbian Renewal Movement, Arkan's men, and

 4     Giska's men had to be under the command and control of the 9th Corps."

 5             Your answer was:

 6             "They should have been, but they were not.  They were in

 7     co-ordinated action with the 9th Corps.  They were not under -- they were

 8     not subordinated to them.  Let me explain what the difference between

 9     subordinated and co-ordinated action is," and you didn't get a chance to

10     make that explanation.  Could you please now explain to us the difference

11     between subordination and co-ordinated action.

12        A.   Subordination implies the following:  A unit is subordinated to a

13     commander, and he is the sole authority in command of that unit.  A

14     co-ordinated action means the following:  You can agree with another unit

15     that you would be attacking along this axis and the other unit would be

16     attacking along the other axis, but one unit is not subordinated to the

17     other.  You agree on the boundaries of -- of the respective axes of

18     attack so that the person in command of the attack does not have the

19     power to command the commander who attacks along the other axis.  Of

20     course, this is a matter of agreement between them, but in this case they

21     advance alongside each other toward that target.

22        Q.   Now, you said that these people from those three organisations,

23     the Serbian Renewal Movement, Arkan's men, and Giska's men should have

24     been subordinated but they were not.  Did you ever learn why they were

25     not subordinated?

Page 7004

 1        A.   Because there had not been established a single system of command

 2     across the Krajina and because the rules and provisions in force at the

 3     time were not complied with, and there was no way to address this or

 4     counter this.  And this is the first time I heard of a military court

 5     having been stationed in Banja Luka, whereas it should have been placed

 6     in Knin.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Maksic.

 8             MR. FARR:  Thank you, Your Honours.  No further questions.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  The Bench has no questions for the witness.

10             Has the re-examination triggered any need to further examine the

11     witness?

12             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Beg your pardon, Your Honour.  No thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Maksic, this then concludes your testimony.  I

15     would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having

16     answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the

17     Bench.  I wish you a safe return home again.  You may follow the usher.

18             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Thank you.

19                           [The witness withdrew]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  For the testimony of the next witness, we turn into

21     closed session.

22     [Closed session]   [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 7005











11 Page 7005 redacted. Closed session.















Page 7006

 1     Chamber will then consider whether the matter you want to raise should be

 2     addressed in the presence of the witness or in the absence of the

 3     witness.

 4             If that's clear to you, then I think the first witness to be

 5     brought into the courtroom is Witness JF-095.  Is that correct,

 6     Mr. Groome?

 7             MR. GROOME:  That's correct, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And who will --

 9             MR. GROOME:  I will conduct the examination, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could the witness JF-095 be ...

11             Mr. Cvetkovic, just to verify, the oral decision issued by the

12     Chamber has been communicated to you, I take it, so you're aware of the

13     details of what the Chamber decided and that we'll further consider

14     whether everything should remain in closed session or whether at a later

15     stage we would decide otherwise.  That's clear.  I see you're nodding

16     yes.  That doesn't appear on the transcript, but ...

17                           [The witness entered court]

18                           WITNESS:  JF-095

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  There is a slight chance that all of the protective

21     measures will function already.

22             Good evening, Witness JF-095.  Before you give evidence, I would

23     like to invite you to make the solemn declaration, of which the text is

24     now handed out to you.

25             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

Page 7007

 1     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

 3             Witness JF-095, you'll first be examined by Mr. Groome.

 4     Mr. Groome is counsel for the Prosecution, and you'll see him standing

 5     soon to your right.

 6             Please proceed, Mr. Groome.

 7                           Examination by Mr. Groome:

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

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18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20        Q.   On the 2nd of September, 2010, the Chamber in a response to a

21     request from your government that your testimony be given in closed

22     session established a procedure by which we will proceed in closed

23     session.  The Trial Chamber, after review and upon hearing the position

24     of your government, will make a determination regarding what, if any

25     portions of your testimony should be published.  In the event that the

Page 7008

 1     Trial Chamber makes public some portions of your evidence, it has ordered

 2     that your identity be protected by referring to you by the pseudonym

 3     JF-095 and by digitally distorting your image and voice on the video of

 4     these proceedings.  Do you understand this?

 5        A.   Yes, I understand.

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

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10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

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16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18        Q.   Can you describe for us the relationship between the former State

19     Security Service and the current institution known as BIA.

20        A.   The State Security Service of the Republic of Serbia existed in

21     formal and legal terms, unless I am mistaken, up until 1991 or 1992.

22     Thereafter, the state security department was set up within the Ministry

23     of the Interior, which existed until the 27th of July, 2002.  In July of

24     2002, the government of the Republic of Serbia -- or, rather, the

25     National Assembly of the Republic of Serbia carried a law concerning the

Page 7009

 1     security and information agency whereby the agency was set up as a

 2     separate legal entity of a separate governmental agency.  This was the

 3     first time that it was taken out of the competence of the Ministry of the

 4     Interior.

 5             One of the articles of the above-mentioned law, namely

 6     Article 27, specifies that the security and information agency would take

 7     over the archives, the cases, resources, equipment, and some of the

 8     personnel of what was hitherto the RDB.  Nowhere does it explicitly state

 9     in the law that the security and information agency is a legal successor

10     to the RDB.

11        Q.   Now --

12        A.   Which --

13        Q.   I'm sorry.  Please.  I didn't mean to interrupt you.

14        A.   Which de facto it is not.  In view of the fact that some of the

15     employees of the RDB, who in 2002 had not been taken over by the agency

16     continued in their jobs within the Ministry of the Interior in accordance

17     with their professional qualifications.  However, in actual fact the

18     security and information agency is a service for the protection of the

19     internal security of the Republic of Serbia, which in fact the RDB, the

20     state security department, was.

21        Q.   What's the name of the current director or head of the BIA?

22        A.   The current director of the security and information agency is

23     Sasa Vukadinovic.

24        Q.   Now, Mr. JF-95, the Prosecution over the years has made a number

25     of requests to the Serb government, and these have been made to the

Page 7010

 1     National Council on Co-operation, are requests which pertain to material

 2     that might be in the possession of your institution forwarded to BIA?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Can I ask you to describe for the Chamber in general and very

 5     brief terms how you go about responding to requests that you receive from

 6     the Office of the Prosecutor.

 7        A.   The security and information agency does not receive the requests

 8     from the OTP, i.e., from the ICTY directly.  The agency is just one of

 9     the state organs of the Republic of Serbia which actually acts upon

10     requests that are received after they have been submitted to -- submitted

11     to them by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Serbia, or

12     in some cases by the government office of the National Council for

13     Co-operation with the International Criminal Tribunal for the former

14     Yugoslavia at The Hague.

15             Once such a request has been received in the security and

16     information agency, the covering letter of the ministry forwarding it or

17     the office which forwards it, the security information agency is

18     requested to urgently respond to the request.  When a request for

19     submitting material or access to documentation is in question, to check

20     in its archives whether indeed it does have such a document in them and

21     then to submit that document to the ministry or to the office with the

22     remark whether, in respect of the specific document, it proposes some

23     specific conditions to be observed in their use in criminal proceedings

24     before the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia.

25        Q.   Mr. JF-095, the record records you as saying "submit that

Page 7011

 1     document to the ministry or to the office."  Can I ask you to tell us

 2     when you say "office," what precisely are you referring to?

 3        A.   Yes.  I have previously said that.  When -- the office is the

 4     office of the government of Serbia -- of the Republic of Serbia; namely,

 5     the office of the Council for Co-operation with International Criminal

 6     Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, at the head of which is

 7     Minister Rasim Lajic.

 8        Q.   Now, have investigators or any other staff of the Office of the

 9     Prosecutor of the ICTY ever been permitted direct access to the archival

10     material in the possession of BIA?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Sorry, if I can -- I meant to ask you:  Have the personnel of the

13     Office of the Prosecutor ever been allowed to enter the actual archives

14     of the BIA?

15        A.   In respect of the original archival depots of the BIA, no staff

16     or no investigator of the ICTY -- or, rather, of the OTP, from November

17     2006 up to this date has entered.

18        Q.   Now, in some -- in some cases when a request is made, does the

19     resolution or satisfaction of the request involve direct face-to-face

20     meetings between members of OTP staff and members of BIA staff?

21        A.   Yes, it does.  In the period to date, there have been a number of

22     direct meetings, but exclusively with the mediation of the Ministry of

23     Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Serbia or of the office of the Council

24     for Co-operation, and not only have there been direct meetings, but on a

25     number of occasions pursuant to a very precisely defined request for

Page 7012

 1     access to specific documentation and in keeping with the agreement signed

 2     earlier between the Republic of Serbia and the ICTY on the modalities of

 3     this co-operation, representatives of the OTP have been enabled to view

 4     in a room, which is not actually the original archival depot of the BIA,

 5     to directly inspect, that is, a specific stock of documents which was --

 6     which were precisely defined before that -- or, rather, approved before

 7     that, defined before that in keeping with the actual case, the actual

 8     event, the actual persons involved, or the actual time-frame concerned.

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16        Q.   Did there come a time when after repeated efforts on your part to

17     find certain documents and repeated discussions with members of the OTP

18     you were unable to find all of the documents requested by the OTP?

19        A.   Yes, indeed.  There have been a number of occasions.  There have

20     been a number of instances when specific documents that the OTP expressed

21     an interest in in their request were unable to be found, but in an

22     enormous number of cases, on the other hand -- actually, it was not at

23     all certain that any such documents had ever existed.  However, in

24     respect of a rather small number of documents, a very small number of

25     documents regarding which on the basis of the documentation enclosed by

Page 7013

 1     the OTP it was certain that they had most probably existed, we were

 2     unable to locate a small number of such documents in the archives of the

 3     BIA.

 4        Q.   Now, as a consequence of this small number of documents that were

 5     unable to be located, were you aware that the OTP made a request to your

 6     government in 2008 that it investigate the circumstances surrounding its

 7     inability to find certain documents within its archives?

 8        A.   Yes.  I am aware of the fact that the OTP's request for

 9     assistance, if I'm not mistaken, 1691 from November 2008, actually

10     requested the government of the Republic of Serbia to set up an

11     interdepartmental commission consisting of representatives of the

12     Ministry of the Interior and representatives of the security and

13     information agency who would be charged with attempting to locate the

14     documents, which according to the allegations of the OTP were lacking,

15     were missing.  Namely, if it failed to locate them, to clarify the

16     circumstances surrounding their fate as well as --

17        Q.   I'm sorry, are you finished?

18        A.   As well as to designate, to appoint a representative of the

19     commission who would, on behalf of the commission, maintain liaison with

20     the OTP, i.e., with the ICTY, and present to it the results of the

21     commission's work.

22        Q.   Now, the commission report which the Prosecution will tender into

23     evidence contains a summary of the legal basis and the procedural history

24     of this commission, so I will not ask you to repeat that for us now.  Can

25     I ask you to describe in general terms the activities undertaken by the

Page 7014

 1     commission.  I will ask you about specific tasks later, but can you just

 2     outline in general terms how the commission approached its task.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  If Witness JF-095, if you can do that in one minute

 4     we'll hear it now.  If it takes you more time, I'd rather you to answer

 5     this question tomorrow, because it's close to 7.00.  One minute, would

 6     that do, or would you neat more time?

 7             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Well, one minute is sufficient.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please answer the question before we adjourn.

 9             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Basically, the commission worked

10     on two levels.  First of all, a search in the archives of the BIA, of the

11     Ministry of the Interior, and conducting talks with persons that the

12     commission assumed could provide relevant information in this respect.

13     Or interviews.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  If that's your answer, that was well within a

15     minute.  Thank you for that.

16             Before we adjourn, I'd like to inform you and the representatives

17     of the Republic of Serbia as well that there is a pending request to

18     delay cross-examination.  The Chamber has not yet decided on that

19     request.  We'll do that after we have heard the testimony given during

20     examination-in-chief, and we'll do that both for this witness and for the

21     next witness to appear.  We'll hear the testimony of these witnesses

22     consecutively before cross-examination starts.

23             Now, therefore, it's also a bit uncertain when would -- we would

24     like to have you present to answer any questions put to you in

25     cross-examination.  It will certainly not be this week.  Thursday is a UN

Page 7015

 1     holiday, so the Tribunal is closed.  For many reasons we'll not sit on

 2     Friday.  So after we have decided the matter, we'll tell you whether

 3     cross-examination will be conducted in the beginning, that is, Monday

 4     and/or Tuesday and/or Wednesday next week or whether it will be at a

 5     later date, and I would very much like you to inform the Chamber tomorrow

 6     about your are availability during the first three days next week, and if

 7     the delay would go beyond that or far beyond that, of course, then we'll

 8     have to further contact you about your availability.

 9             We'll continue tomorrow, quarter past 2.00 in this same

10     courtroom, and I would like to instruct you not to speak with anyone

11     about your testimony, whether that's testimony already given or still to

12     be given tomorrow.  That would include the calling party, Prosecution,

13     any Defence counsel, but also the representatives of the Serbian

14     government.  You should not communicate, not speak, not -- no telephone

15     calls, no communication in writing, no communication at all in respect of

16     your testimony.

17             We adjourn, and we resume tomorrow, the 8th of September, quarter

18     past 2.00 in this same courtroom, III, but I first ask you to follow the

19     usher, because a decision to adjourn is usually made in open session, but

20     I give you an opportunity to already leave the courtroom.

21                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I already would ask you, Witness JF-095, to follow

23     the usher.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's be very practical as far as the curtains are

Page 7016

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 6             We adjourn until tomorrow, Wednesday, the 8th of September,

 7     quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon, Courtroom III, and I already announce

 8     that further evidence tomorrow will be heard in closed session.

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.07 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 8th day

11                           of September, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.