Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7263

 1                           Wednesday, 15 September 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.

10             This is the case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus

11     Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13             First of all, we find ourselves again in the unpleasant situation

14     that the air-conditioning is not functioning well.  The Chamber decided

15     that we would try to proceed this morning.  If it turns out that that's

16     not possible, we will try to find solutions and among those possible

17     solutions would be to continue in another courtroom later today, but

18     let's see how it works.  It's unpleasant for everyone, not only for those

19     in the courtroom but also for those outside the courtroom.  The booths

20     are suffering perhaps even more than we do, although "suffering" is a --

21     is not an absolute concept.  Therefore, it's highly inconvenient,

22     perhaps, rather than real suffering.

23             Before we continue, can the -- we have verified that all the

24     protective measures are in place, that is, face distortion, voice

25     distortion, and pseudonym.  Can the witness be brought into the

Page 7264

 1     courtroom.  Meanwhile, I'll deal with a few matters.

 2             I inform hereby -- I hereby inform the parties that VWS was

 3     instructed yesterday to relay the instructions I tried to give to the

 4     support person, but he couldn't hear me.  VWS was instructed to relay

 5     these instructions to the support person.

 6             Further, in relation to the 92 ter motion, on the 10th of July

 7     the Prosecution had asked for leave to reply.  I hereby put on the record

 8     that through an informal communication the OTP was informed that the

 9     leave requested was denied.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11                           WITNESS: JF-039 [Resumed]

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Witness JF-039.  Can you hear me in a

14     language you understand?

15             THE WITNESS: [No Interpretation] [Inaudible]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I heard "Da," but you're perhaps too far from the

17     microphone.  I would like to instruct you -- I would like to remind you

18     that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the

19     beginning of your testimony, that is, that you'll speak the truth, the

20     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  Please be seated.

21             Mr. Jordash, are you ready to proceed?

22             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.  Thank you.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:  [Continued]

24        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Witness.

25        A.   Good morning.

Page 7265

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have, please, P978 on e-court.

 2             Could we have -- could we have -- I'm not getting a sound in my

 3     headphones.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is the sound of the -- of the machines

 5     that try to keep the temperature at bearable levels.  Or is it --

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, I'm not getting any sound at all.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Not any sound at all.  If you plug in your --

 8             MR. JORDASH:  I've got it now.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  The document not to be shown to the public.

10             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.  Could we go, please, to

11     paragraph 48.

12        Q.   Mr. Witness, I want to ask you about something that's at the last

13     two sentences in paragraph 48 when the statement purports to be dealing

14     with Martic getting angry with Frenki.  The statement says:

15              "Martic saw this and was angry because the local people did not

16     have enough food or gas and he wasn't getting the promised financial

17     support for these things and Frenki was acting like this.  Martic was

18     feeling that he was losing control of the police to Frenki."

19             Do you see that?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Was it the case that Martic was angry with Frenki because he was

22     losing control of the police to him?  Is that something different to what

23     you told us yesterday?

24        A.   It's not different.  I said this to reflect the context.  He

25     tried to take over.  Actually, at one time he did take over command at

Page 7266

 1     Golubic entirely.  Financially and logistically, he was in charge of

 2     getting the equipment for that unit.  That's what it was about, and that

 3     was one of the problems.

 4        Q.   Yesterday you told us that one of the problem -- or one of the

 5     problems was that the conflict was about who would command the TO, not

 6     about Martic losing control of the police.  Two different things, no?

 7        A.   When I said that members of the TO and members of the police and

 8     those who went for training, I did not mean exactly one part of them, or

 9     I meant globally the TO forces, because that, too, was under Martic.  He

10     was the commander of both the police and the TO, quite literally.

11        Q.   Well, if -- let's have move on, then, if that's your answer, to

12     paragraph 49.  Let me take you to the third line:

13              "The local politicians in Knin were also becoming very concerned

14     and upset with the behaviour of the recruits being trained in Golubic.

15     They were arrogant and had better equipment than the local police had and

16     were causing them problems.  Therefore, in July, Martic called Stanisic

17     to have Frenki removed from the training camp and the Krajina.  Martic

18     transferred all of the TO command and Captain Dragan's command to the

19     fortress in Knin.  Within about one week, the TO and Captain Dragan's

20     under came under a single command.  Once Martic ordered this, Stanisic

21     ensured that it happened.  There was a small part of the TO that remained

22     at Golubic, but the major part of the camp was taken over by a JNA force

23     engineer group from Sinj.  The reason that Martic organised this move was

24     an attempt to re-establish his control over the TO and the police.

25     Frenki was called back to Belgrade for about two weeks but then returned

Page 7267

 1     to the Krajina."

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

 3             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, this has nothing to do with the

 4     question, but I believe the usual practice, when a witness has facial

 5     distortion, is that the curtain to the public gallery is pulled.  Now I

 6     see the support person in there, so I'm not sure whether special

 7     arrangements have been made, but certainly no one from the public should

 8     be allowed to walk into the public gallery at this moment.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think what we said yesterday is the support

10     person was allowed in but then we had to ensure that no one else would

11     enter the public gallery; and under those circumstances, there was no

12     need to pull the curtains down.

13             Just to verify with Madam Registrar whether security has been

14     instructed?

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Security's informed, as yesterday.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. JORDASH:

19        Q.   Did you tell the Prosecution in 2003 that Martic transferred all

20     of the TO to the fortress in Knin?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   You didn't say that?  Do you know how it -- do you know how it

23     got into your statement?

24        A.   I think this was misinterpreted or seen in the wrong context.

25     This was a command, the command centre.  But the forces, because in the

Page 7268

 1     fortress there are absolutely no facilities or conditions to hold a large

 2     number of men, twenty men would have been the absolute maximum in the

 3     fortress at the time.

 4        Q.   Well, you've read this statement a number of times.  You read it

 5     in preparation for today, and you never indicated you wanted to make a

 6     correction to that quite significant detail, I would suggest.

 7        A.   It's possible.  Maybe it was an oversight.  I wasn't only

 8     thinking about my previous statement.  I'm trying to speak here based on

 9     my memory, but it has been 20 years, after all.  That's why I said the

10     figures are the worst thing for me, and those may well fluctuate.  I'm

11     not someone who was keeping count of anything at the time or any

12     particular record.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, could you please re-read line --

14     page 5, lines 12 and 13, and then tell me where I find exactly this text

15     in the statement.  There's one word missing which -- would you agree with

16     me?  Paragraph 49, where the word "all" appears approximately in the

17     middle.  Transfers all of the ...

18             MR. JORDASH:  TO command.  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It may make a difference, I do not know, but

20     at least you couldn't ask the witness how this comes into his statement

21     if you are not quoting him accurately.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Well --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Either you pursue the matter but then with the right

24     wrote, or you move on.

25             MR. JORDASH:  I'll repeat the question with the -- that word.

Page 7269

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then -- and I'll make clear, then, to the

 2     witness that there was a difference with what you're now telling us the

 3     content of his statement compared to what you earlier said.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. JORDASH:

 6        Q.   Mr. Witness, I missed out a word.  Let me just read it to you

 7     again:

 8              "Martic transferred all the TO command and Captain Dragan's

 9     command to the fortress in Knin."

10             Do you see that?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And then further down the paragraph it says:

13             "There was a small part of the TO that remained at Golubic."

14             Do you see that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Did you tell the Prosecution that in 2003?

17        A.   Yes.  [In English] Can I explain this?

18        Q.   Please do.

19        A.   [Interpretation] Again, this is more of a technical question.  If

20     I said a small part of the TO or the best part of the TO, what I had in

21     mind was the command centre alone.  I didn't have in mind the men or --

22     or the unit.  This only had to do with a change in the command centre.  I

23     may have overlooked something at the time or when I read it again.  It

24     has been a long time, after all.

25        Q.   So when you said in the statement that a small part of the TO had

Page 7270

 1     remained at Golubic, you meant that the majority of the TO had moved to

 2     the fortress --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, let's try to avoid any

 4     misunderstanding.

 5             When you said that a small part of the TO remained at Golubic,

 6     did you refer to that part of the TO that had been in Golubic, or were

 7     you talking about the whole of the TO in the area?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just the small part that was in

 9     Golubic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  So if I -- if I then understand you well, we have to

11     understand there was a small part of the TO that remained at Golubic

12     means that not all of the TO in Golubic moved to the Knin fortress but

13     part of it remained -- a small part remained in Golubic.  Is that how we

14     have to understand this sentence?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

17             Please proceed.

18             If you want to add something, it's fine; but the answer is clear

19     to me.

20             MR. JORDASH:

21        Q.   Let me go on in the statement.  Paragraph 50 -- sorry,

22     paragraph 49 again.

23             "Frenki was called back to Belgrade for about two weeks but then

24     to Krajina -- but then returned to the Krajina."

25             Reading on to paragraph 50:

Page 7271

 1             "In July 1991, Martic made an agreement with Bosko Bozanic,

 2     municipal president of Titova Korenica, to allow Captain Dragan and

 3     Frenki to move their camp to Korenica."

 4             Do you see that?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   So did you tell the Prosecution in 2003 that as a result of a

 7     dispute between Martic and Frenki, Frenki went back to Belgrade for two

 8     weeks?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And did you say that Martic then made an agreement for Frenki to

11     move to Korenica?

12        A.   Yes, that's what happened.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, the witness has answered the question,

14     but that "as a result" is added by you, isn't it?  The last sentence is

15     not in any causal relationship.  So therefore you can ask him whether

16     there was a causal relationship or you can say whether that's what he

17     meant, but to say, "Is that what you said," and then rephrase it and

18     introduce new elements in it is not the right way.  Now it doesn't seem

19     to be dramatic, but it's your interpretation of the relationship between

20     the last sentence and --

21             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.  And I was asking -- well, but --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but then you should be clear.  You should have

23     asked him, the last sentence where it says that he was called back, "was

24     that as a result of ..." then you make a clear question.  There's nothing

25     wrong with that question.  But just to phrase it as if this is what his

Page 7272

 1     statement reads is not accurate.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Well, Your Honour --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It's an interpretation.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  It is an interpretation, but I'll -- from -- well,

 5     I take Your Honour's point.

 6             Can we go, please, to P977 on e-court.

 7             Now, the page I'm going to ask to be pulled up shortly is

 8     page 2009, which is 54 on e-court.

 9             Can we go to page 53, the page before.  And line 15.  Not to be

10     shown to the public, please.

11        Q.   Question at line 14, you were asked this:

12             "What about the TO?  In the summer and the fall of 1991, who

13     commanded the TO in the SAO Krajina, to our knowledge?

14             "A. The TO had a joint staff with Martic, established sometime, I

15     think, in July 1991 at the fortress of Knin.  That's where the joint

16     staff was.  He was -- or, rather, without his command, nothing could be

17     done.  He was issuing orders to the commander of the Territorial Defence

18     as well."

19             Is that correct, Mr. Witness?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Reading on:

22             "Q.  To your mind, was there any difference between TO officers

23     or soldiers and the police?

24             "A.  Technically speaking, apart from the equipment and training,

25     there was no difference.  The command was the same.  It was just that the

Page 7273

 1     older members of the Territorial Defence had a different uniform, but all

 2     the rest was the same."

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Turning over the page, please.

 4        Q.   Line 7:

 5             "Q.  Did there come a time when Milan Martic had a dispute with

 6     Frenki?

 7             "A.  Yes.

 8             "Q.  When did that happen?

 9             "A.  That was sometime in June or July because Martic established

10     the staff at the fortress and transferred it from Golubic to the

11     fortress, together with the Territorial Defence."

12             Is that true?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   17, line 17:

15             "Q.  Did Frenki leave Knin or the Krajina?

16             "A.  Yes.

17             "Q.  For how long?

18             "A.  I can't remember exactly for how long, but, at any rate, the

19     other part of the territory in Korenica was involved.  Let me explain

20     this.  When there was this quarrel, when the Golubic camp was closed

21     down, then Captain Dragan's people, together with Bosko Bozovic, and

22     agreement with Bosko Bozovic, the president of the SDS from Korenica.  So

23     part of Captain Dragan's people and -- were transferred to Korenica."

24             MR. JORDASH:  Over the page, please, to 2010:

25        Q.   "Q.  And what did Frenki do?

Page 7274


 2             "A.  First he returned to Belgrade.

 3             "Q.  And how long did he stay in Belgrade?

 4             "A.  Not for a long time.  When the new camp was established in

 5     the territory of Korenica, that motel, that location was called

 6     Sesta Licka.

 7             "Q.  And when that happened, did he return to Korenica?  Frenki,

 8     that is.

 9             "A.  It's not that he returned the way he had been in Golubic.

10     In Golubic he would spend -- we spend a lot of his time there actually.

11             "Q.  So do I understand you correctly that he would go -- he went

12     back to Korenica -- he went to Korenica, but he didn't spend as much time

13     there as he had spent in Golubic?  Is that -- am I understanding you

14     correctly?

15             "A.  Yes."

16             So when you gave evidence in that trial, you were saying that as

17     a result of the dispute between Martic and Frenki, Frenki had been

18     effectively ejected from Knin, Golubic, and had left Belgrade and then

19     set up some form of camp in Korenica.  Is that not right?

20        A.   Yes.  May I explain?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  This is the same

23     statement that I made yesterday.  This was a brief period of time.

24     Perhaps I forgot -- I forgot to mention the name yesterday, because in

25     Golubic there was the chain of command and that's a huge difference.

Page 7275

 1     Frenki was for the materiel and equipment and then Captain Dragan trained

 2     men with his assistants.  That's a legal difference.  And then the TO,

 3     when the command moved to the fortress, some of them went to Udbina, as I

 4     said yesterday; some were off to Titovo Korenica.  That is precisely what

 5     this is about.

 6             After that major clash, Martic asked Stanisic to withdraw Frenki.

 7     Frenki was sent away.  It all happened like that.  Later, when they

 8     established the Korenica camp, they were no longer

 9     Captain Dragan's Knindzas.  They now became the Red Berets or

10     Frenki's Men.  A short while after, some of the men from --

11        Q.   Mr. Witness, I'm asking you, really, whether -- yesterday you

12     told us that after the dispute, after the camp moved from Golubic to

13     fortress, Frenki and Martic were on a day-to-day in the fortress

14     arranging new operations.

15             In the transcript we've just looked at, you appear to say pretty

16     much what you say in your statement in 2003, which is that, in fact,

17     Frenki, as a result of a dispute with Martic, moves to Korenica via

18     Belgrade.

19             Is that not a fair summary of the difference?

20        A.   I don't think so.

21        Q.   You don't think there's a difference?

22        A.   No, because what I'm talking about all the time is about the

23     transfer of the command and the command men.  I wasn't talking about the

24     men, the fighters.  Some of them went back to their original units.  Some

25     remained with the special units.  Some went to Udbina.  Some were all

Page 7276

 1     over the place.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me try to understand what the problem is.

 3     Mr. Jordash puts to you several elements in a sequence of events.  It

 4     starts at Golubic.  It ends at Korenica.  In between, there is the

 5     fortress of Knin and there is Belgrade.  Now, what seems to be the

 6     question of Mr. Jordash, and please correct me when I'm wrong, did Frenki

 7     go from Golubic to Belgrade and then later to Korenica; or did he also

 8     first go with the command to the Knin fortress, stayed there for a while,

 9     and then went to Belgrade; or did he, once he left Golubic, go to

10     Belgrade and after that to Korenica?

11             Mr. Jordash, is that the matter, to start with, the basic --

12             MR. JORDASH:  The basic, yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE: -- the base issue.  Yes.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So could you tell us how it went?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Orie, that's

17     precisely what happened.  He went from Golubic to Knin, to the fortress;

18     from there, on to Belgrade.  Following negotiations, he went to Korenica

19     to set up a large-scale camp there.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us for how long approximately he

21     stayed in the Knin fortress after the command had moved from

22     Korenica [sic] to the Knin fortress?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Roughly two weeks, two or three

24     weeks.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, please proceed.

Page 7277

 1             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, the --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Groome.

 3             MR. GROOME:  The record records you as saying "the command moved

 4     from Korenica to Knin."  I believe --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  That's --

 6             MR. GROOME: -- that's been recorded incorrectly.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That is certainly not what I meant.  From Golubic to

 8     Knin.  I think I -- yes.  Page 14, line 7:  "... after the command had

 9     moved from ..." I don't remember what I said, but I think I said Golubic

10     to the Knin fortress.  At least that was the gist of my question.  I

11     don't think that it affects the answer in any way.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have, please, P978 back on e-court.

13        Q.   While that's happening, Mr. Witness, I suggest to you that the

14     first time you ever mentioned Frenki and Martic working at the fortress

15     was yesterday.  And in your statement in 2003 and your evidence

16     previously in this Tribunal, you never gave that account.  You

17     effectively said, Because of the dispute with Martic, Martic had thrown

18     Frenki out and he'd gone to Korenica.  Isn't that correct?

19        A.   Can I see the statement?  Could you show it to me?  Is that

20     possible?

21        Q.   I've taken you to both the statement and the transcripts and

22     there's no mention of Frenki going to the fortress, and I'm suggesting

23     that you made that up yesterday for the first time.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could all the microphones be switched off.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that some things I did not

Page 7278

 1     mention in detail.  For instance, now I can add some additional details

 2     about people and things, but generally it was known that Martic's staff,

 3     that's what it was called, was transferred to the fortress.

 4        Q.   I'm asking you about inconsistencies.  If that's your

 5     explanation, we can move on.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Let's go to paragraph 48 -- 49 of this statement,

 7     please.

 8        Q.   In paragraph 49, you state:

 9             "Once Martic ordered this, Stanisic ensured that it happened."

10             Precisely what does that mean?  What did Stanisic do to ensure

11     that it happened?

12        A.   Could you please help me and point out where in the paragraph

13     that is?

14        Q.   Sorry, yes.  It's -- in the English, it's five page -- five lines

15     from the bottom.  Six lines.

16             "Once Martic ordered this, Stanisic ensured that it happened."

17             Do you see that?

18        A.   Yes.  I think that was a reference to the command.

19        Q.   Well, what did Stanisic ensure happened?

20        A.   I think this is a reference to the change, the move of the staff

21     from Golubic to the fortress and Frenki's removal and departure for

22     Belgrade after that, because already by that time there were numerous

23     problems.  People were revolting.

24        Q.   Well, what did Stanisic do to ensure that happened, and how do

25     you know about it?

Page 7279

 1             MR. JORDASH:  I think there's a security guard in the court for a

 2     particular reason.

 3   (redacted)

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 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we move into private session.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

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18   (redacted)

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Page 7280











11 Pages 7280-7283 redacted. Private session.















Page 7284

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 6   (redacted)

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10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

15             MR. JORDASH:

16        Q.   So when -- at what point did the Muslim-Croatian forces set up

17     check-points on the main road through Bosnia?

18        A.   Well, that began very early on.  It was in response to the people

19     in Krajina setting up their own barricades.  Soon thereafter, maybe four

20     to five months later, let's say in the first half of 1991, they started

21     setting up check-points.  And at first they were manned by regular police

22     who would stop everyone who tried to get through and check their

23     identities against some list they had, and then later on ...

24        Q.   Later on ... yes?

25        A.   Later on the corridor was completely sealed off, and that is why

Page 7285

 1     they were trying to open up the corridor sometime in 1992.

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8        Q.   So is it --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we move into private session.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 7286











11 Pages 7286-7312 redacted. Private session.















Page 7313

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

16             I received information about the availability of interpreters,

17     and they are available this afternoon.  But since it's the same team,

18     there are limits to the total time.  Therefore, at the same time, we

19     received information from VWS that it's of utmost importance to see

20     whether we can conclude the testimony of this witness today.

21             We will - at this moment VWS communicates with the Registry and

22     the Registry with CLSS to see whether any solution can be found.  Under

23     those circumstances, the uncertainty is whether we have another session

24     this morning or whether we have to give up the remainder of this morning

25     and resume this afternoon for a total of not more than three hours, which

Page 7314

 1     would be a little bit more than I earlier indicate, that was two and a

 2     half hours.

 3             I also would like to urge the Defence teams to see whether they

 4     can streamline or can find any solution, and --

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And since the situation has slightly changed,

 7     Mr. Jordash, I repeat what I said earlier, that the Chamber, in view of

 8     the way in which the cross-examination proceeds, is not very much

 9     inclined to grant additional time at this moment.  So therefore - I do

10     understand that it's -- it's -- the Chamber has created some expectation

11     and has at the same time expressed already that additional time was not

12     something that was on our mind - I urge you to see whether you can find a

13     way, together with Mr. Bakrac, how to use the remainder of the time,

14     perhaps in percentages, because the Chamber is still trying to do its

15     utmost best to have as much time available.  There is a small chance that

16     that would be limited to three hours, but we try to get more.

17             MR. JORDASH:  I'm going to finish in 15 to 20 minutes, so if that

18     assists.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And would you need two and a half hours, Mr. Bakrac?

20     Is that ...

21             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yes.  I'm not sure why

22     you were surprised.  My learned friend has been dealing with Simatovic

23     for nearly two hours, and there are a number of things that I wish to

24     clarify with the present witness that I believe remain to be clarified.

25     Therefore, I would like to have the afternoon session in its entirety.

Page 7315

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but that now is -- if we have three hours this

 2     afternoon, if Mr. Jordash would be given 15 more minutes, then 2 hours

 3     and 45 minutes would remain.  Now, you initially indicated two and a half

 4     hours.

 5             I don't know whether there will be a lot of re-examination by

 6     you, Mr. Groome.

 7             MR. GROOME:  Not at the moment, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll try to do our utmost best to see whether

 9     there's any way to get three and a half hours, whether we would have a

10     short session soon and then have two afternoon sessions or not.  The

11     Chamber at this moment is aiming at making three and a half hours

12     available, has in the back of its mind that you would need another 15

13     minutes, that you would be -- need a bit over 2 hours and 45 minutes.

14     We'll see whether we can achieve that.  And the parties have to remain

15     standby.

16             I'm fully aware that this uncertainty is very unpleasant for the

17     accused as well, not knowing how much more time they'll have to spend

18     here.  I'm fully aware of that.  It's not the most pleasant kind of

19     things we have to handle.

20             We will adjourn.  We will have a break.  And for how long, the

21     parties will involved -- will be informed about that by the Registry.

22                           --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 12.49 p.m.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I hereby inform the parties that those who are

25     assisting us finally has shown great flexibility in adapting their

Page 7316

 1     schedules to what the Chamber asked, and that's highly appreciated.  It

 2     all caused, however, a lot of delay of some ten minutes.  We'll have two

 3     sessions of 75 minutes this afternoon.  We can continue until a quarter

 4     to 2.00 this morning [sic].  And, Mr. Jordash, you said you would need

 5     another 15 minutes.  In the present circumstances, where you went beyond

 6     what you asked for initially but where you may have been confused by the

 7     expectation that we would finish this morning, the Chamber does not blame

 8     you for that.  You announced that you need another 15 minutes.  You have

 9     15 minutes, not more than that.

10             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have, please, P -- P978, please.

14     Paragraph 68.

15        Q.   Mr. Witness - we're in private session, I think -  did you tell

16     the Prosecution that --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, we moved into open session before we

18     took the break.

19             MR. JORDASH:  Could we go into private, please.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 7317











11 Pages 7317-7339 redacted. Private session.















Page 7340

 1                           [Open session]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, I'd prefer music rather than ...

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The meeting tomorrow will take place in room 177,

 5     and room 177 is booked from 3.00 to 4.30 p.m.

 6             May the witness be brought into the courtroom.

 7             Mr. Bakrac, we'll start in open session.  Would you please keep

 8     in mind that if there's any need to move into private session that you

 9     address me.

10             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I will.  Thank you, Your Honours.

11     I'll do my best.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, are you ready to proceed?

14             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I am, Your Honour.  Thank you.

15        Q.   Witness --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness JF-039, we are in open session at this

17     moment, so if there's anything in your answers which would be at risk to

18     reveal your identity, would you please ask us to go into private session.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

21        Q.   Witness, good afternoon again.

22        A.   Good afternoon.

23        Q.   Before we went on lunch break, we discussed some topics, and you

24     told us that as of September 1991, approximately, the war between the

25     Yugoslav People's Army and Croatian forces began; correct?

Page 7341

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Could we now please see P2 -- P978.  That is your statement.

 3             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] And it should not be shown in

 4     public, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   And now would I like to refer you to paragraph 64.

 6             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] At first glance it doesn't appear

 7     that we will have to move into private session, but if my learned friend

 8     Mr. Groome or the Honourable Chamber considers it necessary, I'm prepared

 9     to move into private session.

10        Q.   Witness, can you see paragraph 64 of your statement?  May I read

11     it out to you:

12              "I know that there was mutual subordination between the JNA and

13     Martic's Police. (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17             Is what you have said here in your statement correct, and do you

18     stand by it as you sit here?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Witness, since we have this document before us, I would like you

21     now to take a look at paragraph 29.

22             In this paragraph you state:

23             "Colonel Boro Djukic, Martic's PJM, Special Police Units,

24     commander was also with Martic at his headquarters.  Colonel Djukic was

25     also with Martic when the Muslims captured him on September 9, 1991, in

Page 7342

 1     Otoka, Bosnia."

 2             Is that correct?

 3        A.   Well, I would have to clarify this.  I did not mean Boro Djukic,

 4     the commander of Martic's Special Police Units.  He became their

 5     commander only later on when the war had already broken out.  At this

 6     time, he was a lieutenant-colonel in the JNA, I believe.

 7        Q.   Yes, Witness.  That's exactly what I wanted to clear up with you.

 8             Now, would you agree with me that the first part of your answer,

 9     what you state here in this paragraph, in other words,

10     Colonel Boro Djukic, who at this time in September 1991 was a

11     lieutenant-colonel in the JNA, that he was in Martic in his staff.

12             Is that consistent with what is stated here in the paragraph?

13        A.   Well, when I said that he was with Martic, I meant this:  The

14     Yugoslav People's Army and Martic's Police, or whatever we want to call

15     it, were beginning to co-operate and to jointly work on carrying out

16     certain actions in co-ordination.

17        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  Did this co-ordination and the planning of

18     joint actions continue later on in reference to the corridor?  I could

19     refer you to paragraph 72 where you said that Martic was the chief

20     commander, whereas Boro Djukic was the second in the chain of command and

21     that he was a military strategist.  Is that the same person, Boro Djukic?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   So we could agree, couldn't we, that Borislav Djukic was, in

24     fact, a military strategic planner who helped Martic in his planning of

25     some of these operations?

Page 7343

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  Now I would like to go back to the

 3     transcript from your earlier evidence.  You said that in 1992, sometime

 4     in the beginning of 1992 - and that's in paragraph 52 of your statement -

 5     you said, namely, that Martic had control of the police during all this

 6     time; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.  He had control over the police throughout this time.

 8        Q.   And you said that in early 1992, Martic wanted Frenki and

 9     others - and he issued orders to that effect - he wanted them arrested.

10     You mentioned that they were flaunting their money, that they were

11     keeping company with some shady individuals, that they were also involved

12     with local women, and you said that the main reason why, in fact, Martic

13     wanted to arrest Frenki was that throughout this time information was

14     sent to Belgrade via Stanisic?

15        A.   Well, I wasn't referring specifically to Frenki here but to the

16     entire staff or group of men who were with him in Korenica at this time

17     under his control.  I wasn't referring specifically and directly to

18     Frenki alone but to all of these people who participated in that.

19        Q.   Yes, Witness.  I understand your answer, but did I understand you

20     correctly?  Did you say that the main reason and the basic reason why

21     Martic wanted to arrest this group was that information was sent to

22     Belgrade from SAO Krajina, from the ground, intelligence information,

23     directly?

24        A.   Well, yes.  That was one of the reasons, because he would receive

25     intelligence and then he would inform Belgrade of it before, in fact,

Page 7344

 1     informing Martic so that they co-ordinated and received orders from

 2     Belgrade.

 3        Q.   Witness, your answer is not quite clear, but let me ask you this:

 4     Did you know at the time that Franko Simatovic was an intelligence

 5     officer, an operative of the state security of Serbia?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Did you learn at any later date that Franko Simatovic had been an

 8     intelligence officer, an operative of the state security of Serbia?

 9        A.   I don't remember hearing anything of that sort, but I remember

10     people talking about him and referring to him as the right hand to

11     Jovica Stanisic.

12        Q.   So that is what you could hear from other people's stories,

13     figuratively speaking, that he was Jovica Stanisic's right hand?

14        A.   Yes.  And Martic's.  And he never really elaborated on that.  He

15     never discussed any details.

16        Q.   Witness, if we were to hypothetically say that Franko Simatovic

17     was an intelligence officer of Serbia, of a republic which was still part

18     of the federation at the time, that he was an operative in the field,

19     will you be surprised if you learned that his assignment, his mission, in

20     the field was, in fact, to collect intelligence information and send it

21     to his boss?

22        A.   Well, if that was the case, no, that wouldn't have surprised me.

23        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  While we still have your statement on the

24     screen -- let me just check whether we should move into private session

25     for this.

Page 7345

 1             I would like to deal with paragraph 20, and I think that we can

 2     remain in open session.

 3             So, Witness, please take a look at paragraph 20.  We've already

 4     discussed this paragraph, or you have, during the examination-in-chief

 5     and later on during cross-examination, but before you take a look at

 6     it -- and I apologise, I failed to ask you something.  Did you ever hear

 7     from Mr. Martic or did you ever see, yourself, Mr. Simatovic

 8     eavesdropping or tapping someone's phones while he was in the field?  Did

 9     you have any information to that effect?

10        A.   What I know directly was that in -- sometime in November 1990, a

11     team of experts arrived from Belgrade who explained that they had to

12     clear the police station and some other offices, where there were some

13     officials, SDS officials, who worked or lived on those premises, that

14     they had to actually look for bugs and clear them of bugs.  And one of

15     the persons there was Dusan Orlovic, and he was in a way under Frenki's

16     control, and maybe that was the source of information, because he openly

17     said that it [as interpreted] wasn't sure who was working for whom and

18     who was linked to whom.

19        Q.   If I understood your answer correctly, one of the individuals who

20     had been sent to check whether there were any phone taps in place, one of

21     those individuals from Serbia was Franko Simatovic; correct?

22        A.   Yes, and he was presented as an expert who had been linked and

23     worked with Pokrajac, who was at the time in Kosovo.

24        Q.   We will now go back to paragraph 20.

25             And I believe Mr. Groome checked this and also the Trial Chamber,

Page 7346

 1     and there is no need to move into private session.

 2             So would you please take another look at your statement at

 3     paragraph 20.  I will not read out the beginning of the paragraph, but

 4     you can take a look at it for context.  And what I would like to ask you

 5     about is a contradiction that I discovered here.

 6             On page 34, line 11, of today's transcript, you said that on that

 7     it occasion when you saw this PUH police vehicle, that was the first time

 8     that you, in fact, saw Frenki; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.  And I told you that was my recollection.  Because when they

10     came to debug the Knin municipality and the premises where officials

11     worked, I saw them briefly, but I did not have direct contact with them

12     because they wouldn't allow anyone come close to them and see what they

13     were doing.  But I -- at the time when I did see him, I didn't even know

14     what his name was.  When I first arrived, he introduced himself.  He said

15     that his name was Frenki, and then I took him to Martic's office which

16     was upstairs.  That's the difference.

17        Q.   Would you please -- Witness, I have to clarify something with

18     you.  When was it that Frenki introduced himself and when you took him to

19     Martic's office?  Was it when he came in the PUH vehicle or when he came

20     to debug those phone lines?

21        A.   No, when he came with the PUH vehicle and brought in those

22     weapons.

23        Q.   So you saw him then in person, he introduced himself, and you

24     took him to Martic's office?

25        A.   Yes.  But just let me make it clear:  Martic was not in the

Page 7347

 1     office at the time.  I took him upstair -- and that's why I actually took

 2     him upstairs and took him to that office.

 3        Q.   Can you now look at paragraph 20, the last sentence of it:

 4             "As I was heading towards the police station, I could see the

 5     regular police running away, and I could also see blue police 'PUH'

 6     vehicles coming down the street.  I learned later that Frenki Simatovic

 7     was in one of the vehicles."

 8             Kindly tell us now, is what you stated back in 2003 correct, or

 9     is what you told us today correct?

10        A.   Over the past couple of days, I wasn't called upon to clarify

11     these portions of my statement, and the shortened version of my statement

12     was the result of the discussions we had.

13        Q.   Witness, you explicitly stated here in no uncertain terms that it

14     was only later on that you learned that Frenki Simatovic was in one of

15     the PUH vehicles, whereas today you explained to us in great detail that

16     you saw him, that he introduced himself to you, and that you took him to

17     Martic's office.  In my view, these are two different accounts and there

18     should be no mistake about it.

19        A.   Well, to my mind these are not two different accounts.  You see,

20     I spoke in our language and it was being interpreted.  When I said "in a

21     while," I didn't mean that I met him that very moment.  I'm not saying

22     that he introduced himself to me, that he told me his name in order for

23     me to know.  It was when Martic came only several hours later, after I

24     unloaded the weapons, did he tell me this was Frenki from Belgrade and

25     explained the whole situation to me.  Before that, I had no idea who he

Page 7348

 1     was, and I didn't pay attention.  I didn't try to memorise.  There was no

 2     need for that.

 3        Q.   Very well.  I will not belabour the point any longer.  Tell us,

 4     what is the amount of weapons you unloaded and which type of weapons were

 5     they?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I will just stop you for a second.

 7             Could we move into private session.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 7349











11 Page 7349 redacted. Private session.















Page 7350

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Witness, however, on page 7, lines 12 and 13 --

11             THE REGISTRAR: [Overlapping speakers] ...

12             MR. BAKRAC: -- that's to say --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I was too early to say "please proceed" because

14     we first needed confirmation that we are back in open session.

15             Thank you, Madam Registrar.

16             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I apologise,

17     Your Honour.

18        Q.   A moment ago, you said, at page 7, lines 12 and 13, that he got

19     out of the car and introduced himself, that he said, I'm

20     Frenki Simatovic.  That he introduced himself to you.

21        A.   I'm sorry, I would kindly ask you to show me where I said that he

22     got out of his car and introduced himself to me.

23             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown page 7,

24     lines 12 and 13, please.

25   (redacted)

Page 7351

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I said that.  You see, I'm

10     completely confused.  It's not that I'm withdrawing any portions of my

11     statement; it's just that I find it very hard to pick out the right words

12     and to give you the right context.  Every time I'm recounting the story

13     yet again, the context simply takes me to a different direction.

14             I remember quite clearly what happened, and I know what I was

15     doing.  I can relate to you again the events as they unfolded, what

16     happened with the PUH vehicles, everything.

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 7352

 1   (redacted)

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   Witness, and it was for the same reason --

 4             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could go back into public

 5     session, Your Honour.  Oh, we are in public session.

 6        Q.   You said on page 39 of today's transcript, lines 21 and 22, that

 7     when the PUH vehicles arrived, they took off the licence plates which had

 8     MUP plates on them and replaced them with civilian licence plates; is

 9     that right?

10        A.   Yes.  It was normal procedure.

11        Q.   Just give me a simple answer.  We're wasting time.  Is it true

12     that police plates were taken off the PUH vehicles and replaced with

13     civilian ones?

14        A.   Yes.  Can I explain?

15        Q.   Tell me who did this.  Who took off the MUP plates and replaced

16     them with civilian ones?

17        A.   It was Kostic.

18        Q.   Can you explain for me now why a PUH vehicle full of weapons

19     travelled across the former Yugoslavia, so to speak, from Belgrade all

20     the way to Knin with police licence plates in order for these plates to

21     be taken off and replaced with civilian ones once the vehicle arrived in

22     Knin?  What was the point of this?

23        A.   As far as I know, the reason behind this was for police licence

24     plates not to be seen in some of the other republics.  Later on, when

25     Land Rovers arrived, they had number plates 900, and then later on I

Page 7353

 1     learnt that 900 meant federal MUP.  And then 700 number plates, I think,

 2     came from Pristina.

 3             Why was it that they replaced them?  Well, probably to conceal

 4     the country of origin whence these vehicles came.  I can only guess what

 5     the reason was.

 6        Q.   Why did you not include the story about licence plates in

 7     paragraph 20 of your statement?

 8        A.   I don't know.  If you want me to, I can expand my answer and tell

 9     you which individuals came.  As far as I remember, I was giving my

10     statement about the things that I remembered in the briefest of terms, as

11     I'm doing today.

12        Q.   You've just explained to us that licence plates were taken off in

13     order to make sure that it wouldn't be apparent that the vehicle had come

14     from a different republic.  In order for a vehicle to travel from

15     Belgrade to Knin, did it not need to pass a good deal of its journey

16     through Bosnia and then through Croatia before arriving in Knin?

17        A.   Well, a good deal of its journey would have been through Bosnia

18     but not through Croatia.  I don't think so.

19        Q.   How many kilometres would one need to travel through Croatia?

20        A.   I'm not sure.  But if you take the route across Raca through

21     Bosnia, you don't enter Croatia at any point.  If you, however, take the

22     highway towards Zagreb, then you would have to travel a number of

23     kilometres through Croatia before crossing over to Bosnia and then

24     continuing to Knin.

25             If you take the route across Sremska Raca or Sabac, then you go

Page 7354

 1     directly to -- through Bosnia to Knin.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Without going into details, what Mr. Bakrac

 3     apparently wants to know is why they were not so cautious to immediately

 4     remove the foreign licence plates upon entering the territory of Croatia.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, physically speaking, there

 6     was not a piece of territory there that was under the control of the

 7     Croatian territories.  This was under the control of Knin.  And as I

 8     said, the vehicle did not need to cross to Croatia at any point.  The

 9     journey took them from Serbia, through Bosnia, to Knin.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You misunderstood me.  The issue is that if there's

11     a reason to replace the licence plates upon arrival in Knin, why were

12     they not replaced already just before arrival in Knin, when crossing

13     Croatian territory, although perhaps under the control of Knin?  Why, if

14     you don't want to be seen as coming with -- well, I'd say Belgrade police

15     licence plates, to the city of Knin, why don't you take them off before

16     you arrive instead of only after having arrived?

17             That's, Mr. Bakrac's, I take it, the matter you want to raise.

18             Could you answer that question.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know the

20     reason why they didn't do so before.  The convoys that arrived

21     subsequently had to go through the same procedure.  The licence plates

22     were replaced in the garage just below the police station.  It takes only

23     ten seconds to replace the plates.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The answer's clear.  You don't know the

25     reason, and it happened at the other occasions similarly.

Page 7355

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I have to

 3     proceed.

 4        Q.   Witness, you said that it took you hours to unload the

 5     PUH vehicle.  We all know what it's like and what its carrying capacity

 6     is.  What type of weapons were to be found in the PUH vehicle?

 7        A.   A combination of infantry weapons, semi-automatic rifles,

 8     automatic rifles, rifle-launched grenades, and a couple of Thompsons.

 9        Q.   The semi-automatic rifles, Thompsons, rifle-launched grenades, do

10     they all form part and parcel of the assets held by the JNA, the army

11     that you served in?

12        A.   Did you mean to ask about it being owned by the JNA or it being

13     the type of weapons held by the JNA?

14        Q.   Was this the sort of weapons that the JNA had?

15        A.   Yes.  Except for the Thompson's.  I think that they were

16     outdated.  They dated back 40 years.

17        Q.   So the Thompson's were not, in fact, used since the 1940s; is

18     that right?

19        A.   I think that papers appear later on which said that it belonged

20     to the TO Stari Grad in Belgrade, so that they actually originated from

21     the reserve force of the Territorial Defence.

22        Q.   What was the amount of the weapons involved?

23        A.   Each of the PUH vehicles contained some 200 barrels.

24        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  We'll go back to the issue of weapons at the

25     very end.  Let's move on now.

Page 7356

 1             Please have a look at paragraph 36 of your statement.  Do you

 2     have it in front of you?  Paragraph 36.

 3             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we are not in

 4     private session, I think we should leave the open session, as this may

 5     reveal the witness's identity.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

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Page 7357











11 Pages 7357-7390 redacted. Private session.















Page 7391

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11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

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15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

21             MR. GROOME:

22        Q.   JF-039, yesterday, at transcript page 2748, you were asked

23     whether the training at Golubic was like TO training.  You said no, and

24     you went on to note some differences.  I want to ask you about one of the

25     differences you mentioned.  You said:

Page 7392

 1             "A different approach was taken to formation movement and on how

 2     to use weapons that they had never used or seen before."

 3             Can you describe for us what you meant by "weapons they had never

 4     seen or used before"?

 5        A.   Depending on what branch of the army one served in.  If you do

 6     your regular military term, that doesn't necessarily mean you get to know

 7     any particular weapons, mostly small arms, automatic weapons,

 8     semi-automatic, sniper rifles, hand-held launchers.  That really depends.

 9     It depends on where you were in the army during your military term and

10     what weapons you had access to.

11        Q.   The next question I want to ask you:  At page 12 of the

12     transcript from this morning, Mr. Jordash was asking you questions about

13     the move from Golubic to Knin to Korenica, and in response to one of

14     Mr. Jordash's questions, you said the following:

15              "After that major clash, Martic asked Stanisic to withdraw

16     Frenki.  Frenki was sent away.  It all happened like that.  Later, when

17     they established the Korenica camp.  They were no longer Captain Dragan's

18     men.  They now became," and there's a word that I think has been noted

19     incorrectly, "they now became ... or Frenki's Men."

20             Then you proceeded:

21             "A short while after, some of the men --"

22             And you were interrupted.  Do you recall what you were about to

23     say when you said "A short while after, some of the men"?

24        A.   I think I meant some of those men were later transferred to Ilok,

25     and they became instructors there.

Page 7393

 1        Q.   My next question is:  There have been repeated questions about a

 2     military bag, and in Prosecution 978 in evidence, in paragraph 16, you

 3     make reference to a military bag that you were given.  Perhaps it would

 4     assist if you could describe the bag that you are referring to.  How is

 5     it typically used or how was it typically used in the context of a

 6     military?

 7        A.   It was called a military combat bag.  It was like a duffel bag.

 8     A reserve uniform, the -- one's military underwear, a spare shirt, some

 9     spare clothes.  On one's way into combat, one needed a change of clothes.

10        Q.   My next question:  At page 19 to 20 of this morning's transcript,

11     you were discussing how Martic felt that he was not being treated

12     properly because information that he should have been -- gotten was sent

13     to -- directly to Belgrade, bypassing him, and you made a reference to

14     Mr. Orlovic.

15             MR. GROOME:  I'd ask now that Exhibit 65 ter 4841 be called to

16     our screens.

17             Your Honours, this is a document addressed to the Republic of

18     Serbia MUP and the RDB.  It is dated the 30th of March, 1993.

19             Could I ask that we go to the second page of this document, to

20     the person who is the author of this document.

21             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] If I may, my objection is that when

24     the witness referred to Orlovic and the information that was sent, he was

25     referring to the period in early 1992, and this document dates back to

Page 7394

 1     1993.  So I don't think there's any point in showing the document to the

 2     witness.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  And I would object on the basis that my learned

 4     friend is trying to introduce new evidence rather than clarify old

 5     evidence.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber, not having heard yet the question apart

 8     from what page to look at -- Mr. Groome has laid a connection, but it

 9     will depend on his question whether that relation is realistically there.

10     So therefore, Mr. Groome, would you please put the question to the

11     witness.  And before the witness answers, the Defence has an opportunity

12     to make further brief submissions.

13             The mere fact that the document is from a later date in itself

14     doesn't exclude it from a relation with the questions that were put to

15     the witness this morning.

16             Mr. Groome.

17             MR. GROOME:

18        Q.   JF-039, my question to you is simply this:  Is the person who

19     authored this document the person that you were referring to earlier

20     today as the person who was reporting directly to Mr. Stanisic and

21     bypassing Mr. Martic?

22             MR. JORDASH:  Objection.  There is -- there is no lack of clarity

23     as to who the witness is referring to.  The witness is referring to

24     Dusan Orlovic.  The only Dusan Orlovic that has been mentioned as being

25     in the Krajina at this point in time.  This is just a -- a ruse to

Page 7395

 1     introduce a new document.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I do not know yet.  I have not -- the only thing

 3     I've heard until now, whether we're talking about the same person, that

 4     question is there, apparently it is the same person.  I do not know

 5     whether there are others by the same name.  I don't know whether there

 6     will be any follow-up questions.  And the only thing we've established

 7     now, that this document originates from the same person.  Let's listen to

 8     the next question and see whether -- Mr. Bakrac.

 9             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will not oppose this,

10     but I do believe that a proper course would be, and I apologise to my

11     learned friend Mr. Groome if this sounds like a suggestion, to ask the

12     witness if he was aware of another individual by the name of

13     Dusan Orlovic.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's let Mr. Groome, who has got an answer to his

15     first question already, that he put his next question to the witness.

16             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I don't believe the witness has

17     answered the question, and it essentially is the same question, just

18     rephrased, is:  Is this the person that you were referring to in your

19     testimony as the person who was bypassing Martic and reporting directly

20     to Mr. Stanisic?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  But apparently Mr. Jordash does not challenge that

22     it's the same person.  Let's --

23             Dusan Orlovic; do you know any other person by that name?

24             THE WITNESS:  No.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Next question, please, Mr. Groome.

Page 7396

 1             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this point I would tender

 2     65 ter 4841 as an exhibit provisionally under seal.  It is the subject of

 3     a pending application for protective measures on some of the content of

 4     the document.  So I would tender it, provisionally, under seal.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That would serve another purpose as well, that

 6     we could further consider relevance and whether the matter is triggered

 7     by the cross-examination.  So we'd look -- then look at all the aspects

 8     of it and not just at the aspect you just mentioned, because the only

 9     thing we know now is that a person, apparently being the same as a person

10     the witness talked about, has signed a document of which the Chamber is

11     totally unaware what the relevance of that document is.  I'm not saying

12     it's not relevant.  I'm not saying it is relevant.  We just don't know

13     because we haven't read the document, and apparently, Mr. Groome, you're

14     not intending to put any questions to the witness in relation to the

15     content of this document.

16             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number for this document to be

18     marked for identification would be ...

19             THE REGISTRAR:  It would be Exhibit P996, MFI'd, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  We'll further -- at a

21     later stage, we could discuss admissibility of this document.

22             Mr. Groome.

23             MR. GROOME:

24        Q.   JF-039, I want to show you a still from Exhibit D117.  That was a

25     video shown to you by Mr. Bakrac.

Page 7397

 1             MR. GROOME:  I would ask that 65 ter 4718.4 is shown to -- or

 2     brought up to our screens in e-court.  It is a still which is

 3     approximately 23 seconds after the start of D117.

 4        Q.   After the image is displayed to you and after you have had a

 5     chance to study it, my question to you is:  Do you recognise the type of

 6     vehicle that is depicted in this image?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Pictures usually take a bit more time to be

 8     uploaded.  I see some of us already having the benefit of looking at

 9     vehicles.  Not on my screen.  My computer is the laziest.

10             Do you have the vehicle on your screen, Witness JF-039?  Can you

11     look -- can you see the vehicles?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please answer the question.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first vehicle is a white

15     Land Rover, and the other one is TAM 110, the third one as well, and the

16     fourth one too.  It's a TAM, T-A-M, 110.

17             MR. GROOME:

18        Q.   So to be clear, the first vehicle is not the PUH vehicle that

19     you've been referring to -- or you referred to earlier today?

20        A.   No, it's a Land Rover.

21        Q.   Now, my final question to you is that Mr. Jordash put it to you

22     that your testimony is tainted.  My question to you is:  Do you have

23     anything to gain from testifying in this case?

24        A.   I have absolutely nothing to gain, and I have no interest, no

25     vested interest, in this case.  Absolutely none.  The only thing is that

Page 7398

 1     I want to close the door on one part of my life that's been plaguing me

 2     for 20 years and to be with my family, and they're all -- my original

 3     family, and they're all in a different world.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I have no more questions for this

 5     witness.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8                           Questioned by the Court:

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness JF-039, I've got a very brief question for

10     you.  You talked about the money that you collected.  Do you know in what

11     currency it was?  Did you have a look at it at all?

12        A.   No.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  A short question, short answer.

14             Has the re-examination triggered any need for further questions?

15             Then, Witness JF-039, this concludes your testimony.  I'd like to

16     thank you very much for coming, and the Chamber is glad that we were able

17     to conclude your testimony today.  I'd like to thank you for having

18     answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the

19     Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.

20             You may follow the usher as soon as the curtains are down.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you.  Before we

24     adjourn, I want to make one point.  Something the witness said recalled

25     me of Kovacevic's obligation to hand his notes to the Prosecution.  We

Page 7399

 1     still don't have any information to that effect.  Have the notes been

 2     handed over to the Prosecution or not?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I'm not mistaken, the direction to

 5     the witness was to bring it to the office to be sent directly to the

 6     Trial Chamber.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is there anyway way to -- for you to check or

 8     assist?  We could perhaps ask the Registry to check whether it has been

 9     received or not so that we are updated on the matter.

10             MR. GROOME:  May I suggest the Registrar send it to the director

11     off in the field office, Dejan Mijav [phoen].  Just an e-mail inquiring

12     whether it's been received.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's a good suggestion so that we can give it

14     a follow-up.

15             Mr. Jordash.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.  I'm sorry to detain the Court, but may I just

17     raise the one point which is that - and I thought it important for the

18     record - that Mr. Stanisic had to call to the UNDU to have some

19     pain-killers sent to him as a result of the additional sitting hours.  I

20     thought it best to put that on the record.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's good to have it on the record.  And as

22     you are aware that if for that reason Mr. Stanisic would have preferred

23     to raise the matter and to be brought back to the UNDU, that, of course,

24     the Chamber would have seriously considered that.  It's -- the Chamber is

25     fully aware and appreciates the efforts Mr. Stanisic, even under

Page 7400

 1     difficult circumstances, is making to -- to assist in the proceedings to

 2     be conducted as smoothly as possible.  It's -- it did not remain

 3     unnoticed, and this is not the first instance where this happens.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The curtains may be up again.

 6             I'd like to move for one second in private session.

 7             The latest information on the matter just raised was that at

 8     least the witness has found the notes but had not found time yet to

 9     deliver them, and from what I understand it is expected that he -- let me

10     just now check.  He expected at the time to deliver them on Friday, but

11     that was already Friday the 10th of September.  So it's important to know

12     whether he finally delivered them or not.

13             There's one more matter I would like to raise and preferably to

14     raise in private session.  A detailed correction to -- oh, we are not yet

15     in private session.

16                           [Private session]

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Page 7401

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17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

21             First of all, I'd like to thank the interpreters, transcribers,

22     everyone who assisted us in enabling to conclude the testimony of this

23     witness today, from the bottom of -- I do not know whether a

24     Trial Chamber has a heart, but if it has a heart, from the bottom of the

25     Trial Chamber's heart, for making this possible.

Page 7402

 1             We adjourn.  And we resume Monday, the 20th of September, quarter

 2     past 2.00 in the afternoon.  Courtroom II.  We stand adjourned.

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.10 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 20th day

 5                           of September, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.