Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9627

 1                           Wednesday, 1 December 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.  Madam Registrar, would

 6     you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon

 8     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-03-69-T.

 9     The Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             I'd like to deal with a few procedural issues before we give an

12     opportunity to the Prosecution to call its next witness.  The first, I

13     think I yesterday asked the Simatovic view on scheduling around Orthodox

14     Christmas.  It might be that you had been clear on that already and that

15     you would prefer to sit on the 10th, 11th and 12th, that is Monday,

16     Tuesday and Wednesday after the court recess.

17             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but first of all I

18     would like to apologise.  Yesterday you told us that you wanted us to

19     send you a mail.  Unfortunately we have just forgotten to do that, we can

20     do it subsequently or perhaps we can do it now verbally.  If the Trial

21     Chamber is of the opinion that this is doable, the 10th, 11th and 12th

22     would be okay and we know that the 12th might not be doable but if it can

23     be done, even in the afternoon that would be okay and once again which

24     apologise for not sending you an e-mail as you requested.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine.  As far as the Chamber is concerned,

Page 9628

 1     the Chamber has decided that it, depending on practical matters, such as

 2     availability of courtrooms, et cetera, but that the Chamber is willing to

 3     adapt the schedule in such a way that we'll sit on the 10th, the 11th and

 4     the 12th of January and we'll try, but that depends on the Perisic case,

 5     and we'll try to sit on Wednesday morning, but if not possible then we'll

 6     sit in the afternoon.  Again this is to be verified with CMSS, but the

 7     Chamber has made up its mind.

 8             The Chamber has received scheduling for December.  For the 13th

 9     to the 15th of December, witness JF-056 has been scheduled and we see,

10     Mr. Groome, that you also had scheduled a witness for the 16th of

11     December, which would be the fourth witness that week.  Now, in view of

12     the medical report the Chamber receives today, there seems at least to be

13     no medical objections against four days a week apart from other

14     objections.  No medical objections for four days a week, and the Chamber

15     is inclined to agree with that schedule which would then be four days in

16     that week.

17             Mr. Jordash.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, I only rise to remind Your Honours of

19     the submission we made concerning the opinion about four days a week and

20     what we submitted was absent from that assessment, which we felt was

21     important, if not essential for that assessment.  On the other hand, our

22     objections to the four days was directed at a continuous four-day-a-week

23     programme and if it's only suggested four days a week for one week, we

24     probably wouldn't need to address Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At this moment we are discussing this one

Page 9629

 1     week, which leaves alone that, of course, that the Chamber might

 2     consider, but then we'll give you a further opportunity to address the

 3     Chamber, if we would move to four days a week on a more permanent basis.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I just may remind the Chamber that

 7     there are there is at least one unresolved matter with respect to JF-051

 8     that needs to be resolved before he is called.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'll pay attention to that.  Then next item I

10     read out a statement on behalf of the Chamber yesterday in relation to

11     Mr. Kovacevic, more or less between two sentences, Mr. Jordash expressed

12     that he did not, at least the not at that moment, want to make any

13     comments.  I don't know whether now, having more time, whether it was

14     just due to the circumstances yesterday or that you had no comments to be

15     made?

16             MR. JORDASH:  No comments, Your Honour.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No comments.  I haven't asked -- I see, Mr. Bakrac

18     that --

19             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No objections from the Simatovic

20     Defence.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Then that matter is -- stands as I

22     stated yesterday.

23             Then we have for Witness JF-057 admission of related exhibits.

24     Madam Registrar has filed a memorandum in which she lists the exhibits by

25     their 65 ter numbers, the proposed exhibit numbers, the description of

Page 9630

 1     those exhibits, and in the last column whether they are confidential or

 2     not.  It ranges from P01629 up to and including P01653.  Two out of that

 3     range have already been admitted into evidence, that is P1647 and P1649.

 4     When will the Chamber hear of any objections, if any?

 5             MR. JORDASH:  May we indicate by the end of the week.  As I

 6     recall, I don't think we have any, but I'd like to double-check that.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Bakrac, same for you?

 8             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Same for us, Your Honours.  I would

 9     like to check first but I don't think we'll have any objections.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the Chamber sets as a time-limit the 3rd of

11     December, that is Friday close of business, for any objections to be

12     made.

13             Mr. Groome.

14             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, there is one kind of technical matter

15     related to one of these I'd like to bring to your attention.  It relates

16     to P1632.  It is an exhibit from the Milosevic case and is tendered as an

17     associate exhibit.  In this case, the version we uploaded in e-court was

18     signed by the witness and bears the ERN 0291-0458, 0291-0464.  An alert

19     member of my staff spotted that it appears that Mr. Nice in the Milosevic

20     case, through some inadvertent oversight used a version of this exhibit

21     that was not the final version.  The text is exactly the same and the

22     only difference is that the font on the final ERN version is larger.

23     There is no practical difference between the two exhibits other than in

24     one case, Mr. Nice refers to a specific name, Kajman, and adds the

25     information that the name appears as the third name from the bottom.

Page 9631

 1     This can be found at the bottom page T-09420.  If the Chamber simply

 2     ignores Mr. Nice's reference of the third name from the bottom, the

 3     Chamber will have a correct understanding of what the witness said about

 4     P1632 in her Milosevic case testimony.  Or in the alternative, we can

 5     replace the current P1632 with an exact version as found in the JDB

 6     database.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  At my age, I would prefer the larger fonts as a

 8     matter of fact, but I do understand that it gives a different picture.

 9     Could the Defence teams include these comments.  If there's any objection

10     against this version with the larger font but with exactly the same

11     content then we'd like to know, otherwise, Mr. Groome, the Chamber will

12     consider to admit the exhibit as it is uploaded now.

13             Thank you for this comment.  Next item, the Nielsen report.  The

14     Chamber has received a courtesy copy of I don't know whether it's filed

15     already but at least a notice of withdrawal of witness Nielsen.

16             MR. GROOME:  That's correct, Your Honour, it was filed yesterday

17     evening.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  It was filed yesterday evening.  Then I hereby put

19     on the record that all motions in relation to this witness are hereby

20     declared moot.  We might specify them in the near future, but I already

21     pronounce them to be moot.  The instruction to the Registry in relation

22     to the pre-assignment of exhibit numbers is hereby also lifted because it

23     doesn't serve any purpose anymore.  Any questions or comments in relation

24     to this?  If not, we move to the next item.

25             Madam Registrar, the Chamber would like you to assign exhibit

Page 9632

 1     numbers for any outstanding documents that have not yet been tendered or

 2     MFI'd in relation to the testimony of Mr. Theunens.  The Prosecution has

 3     filed the table and the Defence teams have filed their comments on the

 4     content of the table, so it's now time to pre-assign numbers to the

 5     documents found in that table which, as I said before, are still

 6     outstanding.

 7             Then last item, Mr. Jordash, yesterday you indicated that you

 8     needed urgently an order from the Chamber, an order to have the Victims

 9     and Witness Section submit audio recordings to Witness JF-026.  We

10     received a message from VWS that they were a bit surprised because there

11     had been no request, at least they were not aware of it.  Perhaps I'm not

12     going to -- any request to -- prior to.

13             MR. JORDASH:  We got a notification from the Prosecution that VWS

14     were not willing to do that.  I think I'm speaking correctly.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it's clarified.  Mr. Groome, you informed --

16             MR. GROOME:  I informed Mr. Jordash that last week I asked -- we

17     made that request of VWS and they said they were unwilling.  They did not

18     think it was appropriate for VWS to hand a witness documents from a

19     party.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I think, as a matter of fact, that the

21     misunderstanding may have been resolved by your observation and the

22     confirmation by Mr. Groome.  I leave it to that for the time being.  I

23     have no other matters on my list.  Then the next witness will testify

24     with pseudonym, face and voice distortion from what I remember.

25     Mr. Groome, is that --

Page 9633

 1             MR. GROOME:  That conforms with my understanding, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then are all the protective measures in place?  If

 3     so, may the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, while the witness is being escorted,

 5     this witness has expressed in previous testimony some concern about his

 6     identity being revealed.  I have taken the liberty of including the two

 7     cases which this witness has given evidence before on the pseudonym sheet

 8     and I would ask if the Court Officer could hand a courtesy copy to the

 9     Chamber of the pseudonym sheet at this point.  I've already provided it

10     to the Defence.  It is my suggestion that if myself and counsel on the

11     Defence refer to the cases as case number 1 and case number 2, we can

12     give full effect to the protections ordered by the Chamber.  And finally

13     I would ask that a paper copy be left in front of the witness so it also

14     would serve as a reminder to him which case we are referring to.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the Chamber has received the courtesy copy you

16     have provided to the Registry, so we are aware of the ...

17                           [The witness entered court]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  When I earlier referred to the table of the Theunens

19     documents, it was, I mentioned the Prosecution table but both filings of

20     course are received, that is the Stanisic and Simatovic Defence.

21             Good afternoon, Witness JF-026.  Before you give evidence, the

22     Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that you make a solemn

23     declaration of which the text is now handed out to you by the usher.  I

24     would like to invite you to make that solemn declaration.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

Page 9634

 1     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Witness JF-026.

 3             Witness JF-026, I call you by that pseudonym because we'll not

 4     use your own name in court.  Apart from that, your face cannot be seen by

 5     the outside world, neither can your own voice be heard by the outside

 6     world.  Face is distorted and your voice is distorted in our

 7     communications with outsiders.  Is that clear to you?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You will now be examined by Mr. Groome.  Mr. Groome

10     is counsel for the Prosecution and you'll find him on your right.  Please

11     proceed, Mr. Groome.

12             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13                           WITNESS:  JF-026

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15                           Examination by Mr. Groome:

16        Q.   JF-026, you are here today pursuant to a subpoena issued by this

17     Trial Chamber on the 15th of October, 2010; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   You did not come voluntarily here?

20        A.   Yes, that's true.  I didn't come voluntarily.

21        Q.   Now, JF-026, prior to your arrival in The Hague, I was informed

22     by representatives of the Victims Witness Services, that you did not want

23     to meet with myself or any staff member of the Office of the Prosecutor,

24     did they inform me correctly?

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 9635

 1        Q.   So prior to coming to court today, you did not have any contact

 2     with any member of the OTP staff; is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, Judge Orie has just described the protective measures that

 5     have been provided for you.  I would just add one note, that because of

 6     voice distortion, I would ask that you do not start your answer until the

 7     question is completed so that we may turn off our microphones and that

 8     your voice is truly distorted.  Do you understand this?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that 65 ter 5869 be brought to our

11     screens.

12        Q.   JF-026, you should on the right-hand screen before you see what

13     we refer to as a pseudonym sheet.  Can I ask you, is that your name and

14     date of birth on this sheet?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   To give full effect to the protective measures ordered for you,

17     we will not refer to the date or the cases in which you previously

18     testified.  Can I ask you to review the date of the statement and the two

19     cases listed on this sheet and indicate to us are those cases in which

20     you previously appeared?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I would tender the following exhibit

23     under seal and ask that a paper copy be placed in front of the witness

24     for reference during the examination.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be?

Page 9636

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 5869 becomes Exhibit P1654 under seal,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P1654 is admitted under seal.  Mr. Groome, you

 4     didn't indicate that it should not be shown to the public, of course, in

 5     view of the kind of document that goes without saying, but may I ask for

 6     precision in respect of exhibits that will still follow.

 7             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   Now, JF-026, because you refused to meet with me, I'm not sure

 9     which topics I may ask you about you may feel might identify you.  If at

10     any time you are asked a question which you believe would reveal your

11     identity if you gave a complete and honest answer in open court, I ask

12     that you bring that to the attention of the Chamber.  Do you understand?

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18      [Private session]   [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9637

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I do see that you express concerns about your

 6     identity having become public.  First of all, when did you write and

 7     perhaps I'm also looking at you, Mr. Groome, whether you are aware of any

 8     correspondence on this issue?

 9             MR. GROOME:  I know that this witness had made this situation

10     known to the Office of the Prosecutor.  I cannot cite the manner in which

11     that was done or the specific correspondent.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us what in response the Office of the

13     Prosecutor did.

14             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, it was my intention to speak with the

15     witness about this.  As you know, he has refused to speak with me.  I do

16     not know what Victim Witness has done with respect to this problem.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you tell us, witness, when did you write

18     letters in relation to your testimony?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My identity was disclosed on

20     several occasions and my lawyer addressed the OTP on the 24th of

21     September, 2003.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And did you address the matter more recently,

23     well, let's say this year in any correspondence?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I did.  After my testimony in

25   (redacted)

Page 9638

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, could I direct --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9639

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13             JUDGE ORIE:  But the question is whether you brought it to the

14     attention of the Tribunal, which would be the first most appropriate

15     instance to consider such concerns.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know.  I have a

17     written document based on which I drew their attention to this.  I did

18     this every time orally and in writing through my lawyer.  I don't know of

19     any other way to do this.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you point at any specific instance during the

21     last year where you have tried to contact, either directly or through

22     your lawyer, the Tribunal?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before Judge Dilparic at the

24     special court in Belgrade.  I don't know exactly who represented the

25     Tribunal there, but my witness is Judge Dilparic who was present during

Page 9640

 1     these discussions before the special court in Belgrade.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you discuss the matter with the Victims and

 3     Witness Section recently?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I sent them a letter the

 5     other day, and I asked to have a meeting with them before my testimony

 6     here.  However, upon hearing that I did not wish to have contacts with

 7     the OTP, they said that that would have contacts with me after my

 8     testimony and they did not even want to carry or take upon themselves the

 9     course of my stay on the 27th here.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  When did you send them a letter?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Several days ago.  I have a copy

12     here.  On the 24th of November.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that was last week, Wednesday.  Could you

14     provide a copy of that letter to the Registrar so that we can first of

15     all see in what language it's stated, that it can be copied, and that the

16     parties will have access to that letter.

17             I suggest to the parties that the letter, the letter being in

18     B/C/S, be copied.  It's a handwritten copy apparently of a letter.

19     Meanwhile we'll verify whether this letter has been received by VWS and

20     what in response to that has been undertaken.  Madam Registrar.

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you have any meeting with any representative of

23     the Victims and Witness Section recently, Witness JF-026?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they told me that they would

25     be in touch with me after my testimony.

Page 9641

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you asked to meet with them before your

 2     testimony?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had earlier agreed that we would

 4     meet yesterday, but then it turned out that they told me that we would

 5     meet at the end of my testimony.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Did they give any reason why they did not meet with

 7     you yesterday?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't give any reasons.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you make yourself available yesterday to meet

10     with them?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've been here since the 27th

12     and I've been waiting to hear from them if we would meet or not.  The

13     only answer I ultimately got from them was that we would meet at the end

14     of my testimony.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Where would you meet yesterday?  At what time and at

16     what place, and you don't have to describe the address, but, for example,

17     in your hotel or in the Tribunal?  So find a --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was ready yesterday at 5.00

19     p.m. in my hotel.  They were supposed to come and pick me up and take me

20     to the office here, but they postponed it.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you ask for such a postponement or did they?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was available waiting.  They

23     suggested that we should meet afterwards.  I don't know if my

24     understanding of what they said was correct, that apparently they were

25     not allowed to talk to me until the end of my testimony or perhaps I

Page 9642

 1     misunderstood it, I'm not sure.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will pay further attention to what you

 4     just said and we'll verify the information with the Victims and Witness

 5     Section.  Now, there's one issue, I do understand that you did not make

 6     yourself available to meet with Mr. Groome or one of his colleagues.  To

 7     whom did you tell that you would not be available to meet with the

 8     representatives of the Office of the Prosecution?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that letter, I addressed the

10     Victims and Witnesses Section and told them so.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Was any material given to you to review, whether

12     audio material or whatever material, from your earlier testimony?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  When was that done?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yesterday evening or yesterday

16     afternoon at around 5.00 p.m.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Was it given to you by someone of the Victims and

18     Witness Section?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  So you finally met with them yesterday although

21     briefly.  What did they tell you?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if you consider a brief

23     encounter with a driver of the Victims and Witnesses Section who brought

24     the material over to me in the hotel, if you consider that a meeting,

25     that was the extent of it.

Page 9643

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I did not specifically say meeting.  I said you met

 2     with them and you have now clarified that you only received some

 3     material.  We'll verify this information.

 4             Now, witness, let's go back to the issue where we are, that is

 5     your testimony.  I do understand that you are reluctant to give evidence.

 6     Do you think that in view of the fact that you say that your identity was

 7     revealed earlier, do you want any further protection than you have at

 8     this moment?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes and no because my wish is

10     not to testify.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Has anyone explained to you that there's a

12     civil duty, also a duty under the rules of this Tribunal that once called

13     as a witness and you are not just called but even subpoenaed to appear as

14     a witness, that you are under a duty to testify?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I read the order and the

16     representatives of the police from Belgrade who brought the order and

17     served it on me explained it to me.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I -- being aware that you are under a

19     duty to testify and that not answering -- willfully not answering

20     questions exposes you to contempt proceedings, and I again repeat the

21     question whether although you would rather not testify, whether in the

22     present circumstances you want the protective measures to be extended?

23     And what remains is as a possibility, I'm not saying that it will be

24     granted, but what would remain apart from the protective measures already

25     in place would be to give your testimony in closed session.

Page 9644

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if I must testify, then I

 2     would prefer to do so with protective measures.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, protective measures are in place at this

 4     moment, as I explained to you earlier.  That is that no one sees your

 5     face, that no one hears your own voice, and that we are not using your

 6     own name, although the content of your testimony, unless that testimony

 7     would reveal your identity, would be public.  That is what is in place

 8     and do I understand your answer that you would like this to be extended

 9     to giving your testimony in closed session?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I would rather not testify at

11     all.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear, but at this moment we are discussing

13     where you are under a duty to testify whether you want to have your

14     protective measures extended beyond what is already in place.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you explain a bit in further detail what

17     concerns you have in respect of your safety or safety of your family

18     members, and you referred earlier to your identity having become known

19     after your previous testimony.  Could you tell us what happened, what

20     effect it had?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, it's very difficult to

22     explain the situation because it is down to delicate details.  It's not

23     that my personal safety is threatened, but it's the sort of Gandhi-esque

24     resistance in that the society, the community where I live refuses to

25     accept, to have in its midst people who testify before this Tribunal.

Page 9645

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Can you explain what the community around you has

 2     conveyed to you in this respect?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the message that I got after

 4     my first appearance before the Tribunal was given to me through the

 5     two-year ban on entry to Serbia that followed.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And that ban was lifted when?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was never officially

 8     imposed.  There was no decision to that effect.  I would merely be told

 9     to turn back whenever I wanted to cross the border.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And were you able to return to Serbia at a later

11     stage?

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you give us one example of the harassment you

21     experienced after the second testimony?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The business I run, well, there was

23     a tender for office premises where I would actually win the tender, but

24     then it would be taken over by the town authorities, that's an example of

25     how things would work out.

Page 9646

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, that's a matter which is very difficult

 2     to verify at this very moment.  Do you have any other example which needs

 3     less thorough investigations into the matter in order to understand?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, Judge.  I tried to

 5     explain my position, the position where both in Serbia and

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9     all of this.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I understand you well that it's your position

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness 26, I briefly consulted with my colleagues.

19     My first observation is that if you would have met with Mr. Groome, then

20     your concerns would have been brought to the attention of this Chamber in

21     a way most likely which would have facilitated any decision-making in

22     this respect.

23             Second, it seems to this Chamber that although you would prefer

24     to have an extended protective measures, that you do not know exactly how

25     to appropriately raise this matter, you apparently are not sufficiently

Page 9647

 1     aware of the criteria that would be applied in reaching any decision on

 2     this matter, and, therefore, on the basis of what you've told us now, the

 3     Chamber is hesitant at this moment to extend any protective measures.

 4     But, we'd also like to, after having consulted with the Defence, with the

 5     parties, the Chamber is inclined to give you an opportunity to briefly

 6     discuss these matters in an efficient way with the Prosecution, and I'm

 7     now looking at the Defence, the examination has not really started, and

 8     this might lead to a relevant application, a meaningful application for

 9     extension of protective measures, which we could then consider.  At the

10     same time, the Chamber would be in a position to seek further information

11     from the Victims and Witness Section on what you told us about your

12     communications with that unit until now.

13             This would allow us to consider the matter in a more meaningful

14     way, and then to decide whether we'll continue with your examination

15     either with extended or with the present protective measures.

16             Mr. Groome, you are on your feet, I presented it in a rather open

17     way in order to give the parties an opportunity as well to briefly

18     comment on what I just said.

19             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I have not spoken with this witness, so

20     I don't know exactly why he refused to meet with the Prosecution, but it

21     has been my experience that witnesses similarly situated to this witness,

22     that their problems are only exacerbated if it becomes known that they

23     have actually met with the Office of the Prosecutor.  I do know this

24     witness.  He is -- was the first witness to come forward and attempt to

25     assist the Tribunal with respect to events in Zvornik.  He did that many

Page 9648

 1     years ago.  I do know generally that he has come under pressure.  I

 2     wonder if an alternative course of action might be to inquire whether

 3     he'd be willing to proceed provisionally in closed session and then give

 4     the Chamber an opportunity to be fully informed by Victim Witness Unit to

 5     direct them to do a proper threat assessment, to make inquiries with this

 6     witness, and then report back to the Chamber, that might have the virtue

 7     of allowing us to proceed today and the Chamber could reserve its

 8     ultimate decision on the protections until it has all the relevant

 9     information before it.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I hear from the Defence how they respond to

11     the suggestion just raised by Mr. Groome.

12             MR. JORDASH:  May I just briefly consult, please.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

14                           [Defence counsel confer]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

16             MR. JORDASH:  We agree with Mr. Groome.  We think the witness has

17     got concerns, as he has expressed them.  These things are subtle and if

18     the witness is given an opportunity perhaps with VWS to set out his

19     concerns, they may well turn out to be genuine and objectively based, and

20     we would be concerned to proceed without giving him the protection he

21     asks for until that assessment proves that he doesn't require that

22     protection.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

24             Mr. Petrovic.

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we don't have any

Page 9649

 1     problem with the protective measures for the witness that he deems

 2     necessary.  It would be most useful for everybody if this witness shared

 3     his concerns with the Victims and Witnesses Unit and not with the OTP.  I

 4     believe that the best advice for this witness would be provided by that

 5     service and not by the OTP.  I believe that this would be the best course

 6     of action for everybody concerned and not only for the witness.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.  Let me just consult with

 8     my colleagues.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness JF-026, I've consulted with my colleagues.

11     The Chamber follows the suggestion given by Mr. Groome, which means that

12     we will hear your evidence in closed session, meaning that the content of

13     your testimony will be confidential, apart from that no one will use your

14     name.  At the same time, face and voice distortion will remain in place

15     so that we finally will decide on whether your confidentiality will

16     remain confidential not after you have explained in more detail the

17     reasons for your request for an extension of your protection to the

18     Victims and Witness Section, and the Chamber will take care that any

19     possible misunderstandings about whether or not to meet with them, at

20     what time, where to meet with them, making yourself available is -- are

21     avoided.  The Chamber nevertheless during the next break, unless the

22     parties would object to that, then of course we would consider that

23     again, the Chamber would like to verify some of the information the

24     witness has given as to the communication over the last week to say.  I

25     see that all teams apparently agree with the Chamber seeking

Page 9650

 1     verification.  Whether that will be by a telephone call or by inviting

 2     the relevant persons of the Victims and Witness Section to meet with the

 3     Judges or one of the Judges is still to be decided.

 4             We'll proceed, Witness JF-026, therefore, in closed session.

 5     Mr. Groome will now start his examination.  Mr. Groome.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, just one additional matter before I

 7     continue with my examination.  I would note this witness has mentioned

 8     two cases --

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, although it doesn't make that much of a

11     difference, we move into closed session at this moment.  Mr. Groome,

12     please proceed.

13     [Closed session]   [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in closed session, Your Honours.

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21             Your Honour, could I ask that a hard copy of the pseudonym sheet

22     be placed before the witness so that --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it was already.

24                           Examination by Mr. Groome:

25             MR. GROOME:  I don't see it.

Page 9651

 1        Q.   JF-026, do you have a hard copy of the pseudonym sheet that you

 2     saw on the screen earlier?  Do you have a sheet like this on the table

 3     before you?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   If I could ask that you keep that on the top so when I refer to

 6     cases, I'll do so without mentioning the case.  My first question to you

 7     is did you give evidence in the case indicated on the pseudonym sheet as

 8     case number 1 on the days also indicated on that pseudonym sheet?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review this evidence prior to

11     coming to court today?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   I was informed by the Victim Witness unit that you already had in

14     your possession audiotapes from that case and you would take it upon

15     yourself to review that.  Is that information incorrect?

16        A.   Not correct.  The only thing I have is an audiotape from a case

17     number 2 on this sheet.  I have that audiotape.  I believe that I have it

18     here upstairs in the office, but that's only an audiotape from case

19     number 2.

20        Q.   Could I then ask, did there come a time --

21             MR. GROOME:  Or could I ask that 65 ter 5865 be placed on the

22     screen before you.

23        Q.   Did there come a time when you provided a statement to

24     investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor in 2008?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9652

 1        Q.   Is the statement 5865 which would he see on the screens before

 2     us, is that a copy of this statement?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review this statement prior to

 5     giving evidence here today?

 6        A.   Yes, this is more or less what I stated, summarised in some

 7     hundred bullet points.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us when you last reviewed this statement?

 9        A.   Yesterday.

10        Q.   Are there any corrections or clarifications you wish to make to

11     it?

12        A.   The statement contains everything that I stated, but I would have

13     to look at it more carefully.  This is just a summary which contains

14     perhaps 200 sentences, not more.  But this is indeed my statement.

15             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, given that it doesn't seem that the

16     witness has properly reviewed the material, I have the binder with me

17     that I had asked he be given.  It contains this statement in his own

18     language and it also contains the transcript from the first case in his

19     own language that has because of a recent project now available in B/C/S

20     in hard copy.  I would ask that the witness be directed to review this

21     over the course of the break and I appreciate it may take longer than the

22     break, but so that we can proceed with my inquiry with respect to this

23     prior evidence.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps I first ask the following question to the

25     witness:  You said it was all reduced to approximately 100 paragraphs,

Page 9653

 1     your statement, yes.  Now --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, I don't know.  I said that I

 3     had read this statement.  This statement contains 114 bullet points and I

 4     really don't know what may be unclear about that.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  My first question, when you reviewed that, did you

 6     find anything, although perhaps it might not reflect every detail of your

 7     answers, but did you find anything which you considered to be not

 8     correct?  Was there at any moment anything you read you said either this

 9     is not what I intended to say, or although I said it, it's not true?  Was

10     there any such moment when you read that statement?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I was reading this statement and

12     being aware why I had been subpoenaed, I can say that this is my

13     statement, but the statement needs additional clarifications.  Some

14     people are mentioned here and the years, I'm mentioning people here and

15     the questions were was he member of that or this or that organisation,

16     but nobody ever asked me about any time-frame.  This needs to be

17     clarified.  Everything that is contained in this statement is true, but

18     the statement needs further clarifications, similar to the clarifications

19     that I provided in the previous cases.  Whenever I mention something, I

20     believe that the time-frame is very important.

21             And, Judge, if I may say something else, some people are

22     mentioned and the question was, was he a minister, and I answered yes,

23     but he was not a minister at the time when things happened in 1992.  The

24     person, for example, became minister in 1998.  And somebody who is not

25     familiar with the entire situation can gain a completely erroneous

Page 9654

 1     expression by just reading this statement because the times of the events

 2     happening or people being appointed to certain positions are not

 3     mentioned in this statement.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, Witness JF-026, if you were asked whether

 5     someone was a minister, for example, without a time-frame, and if you

 6     have answered that that person was, then without any time-frame, the

 7     Chamber would, of course, never believe that that person had been a

 8     minister from birth until he deceased, so therefore that goes without

 9     saying that that needs further clarification.  But I do understand that

10     you say there's -- we'll find ways to add to your statement further

11     details which you consider to be relevant for a better understanding of

12     your statement.  One second, please.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, Mr. Petrovic, you are both on your

15     feet.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, there are complications here which I

17     think Your Honours are not aware of.  Number one --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Are these complications appropriately being dealt

19     with in the presence of the witness?

20             MR. JORDASH:  Well, we understand that the witness's difficulties

21     when being asked these questions because of what we know about, one, the

22     way in which this statement was compiled, and, two, we also know from

23     subsequent evidence the witness has given in which he has offered

24     clarifications about this statement compiled by the Prosecution from a

25     suspect interview.  So we understand and support the witness in the

Page 9655

 1     expression of his difficulties and we think perhaps Your Honours should

 2     be made aware of the way in which this statement came into being, and

 3     also the way in which the witness clarified this statement and whether,

 4     therefore, once Your Honours have that information, whether in fact we

 5     ought to be addressing Your Honours about whether Rule 92 ter and

 6     admission through that rule is in fact appropriate in these

 7     circumstances.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, I

10     would like to address the Trial Chamber briefly.  The facts presented by

11     the witness with regard to his testimony in case 1 and the written

12     statement that he provided, it seems to me that his statement points

13     clearly to the fact that this witness cannot be heard as a 92 ter witness

14     based on previous statements, old statements, and corrections that the

15     witness may have done or may have not done.  Maybe he did not have any

16     technical possibilities to do them, maybe he didn't have the time to make

17     corrections.

18             The OTP should hear the witness as a viva voce witness because

19     this is the only way we can proceed under the circumstances that have

20     been presented to us here today.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I may.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, would you please respond to what the

24     Defence teams have raised.

25             MR. GROOME:  I think there's one misstatement of fact that needs

Page 9656

 1     to be corrected.  The statement is actually done after the testimony in

 2   (redacted)

 3     rather than deal with the different precursors to the written evidence

 4     submitted in that case, directed the Prosecution to come up with a

 5     composite of the witnesses's evidence.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You wish to refer to the first case.

 7             MR. GROOME:  I am sorry.  I am sorry.  A large part of what's in

 8     the statement is taken from the first case which was done viva voce and

 9     which the witness just has not had an opportunity to review.  So I don't

10     accept that 92 ter is impossible.  I think because of the situation that

11     we find ourselves in, JF-026 has not had the opportunity to review that

12     evidence.

13             I have the binder of not only the viva voce testimony from the

14     first case, in that binder I have all of the associated exhibits in the

15     original and the language the witness can understand, plus I have his

16     statement in his own language.  My suggestion would be that the witness

17     be asked over the course of the break to review this material or get as

18     far as he can, and to make notes in the margin of where he believes

19     clarifications are necessary and then upon returning we would go through

20     those clarifications one by one until we finish the 92 ter process.

21             If we were to proceed viva voce, it would essentially be me

22     reading the questions that I asked this witness many years ago, that I'm

23     now seeking to tender 92 ter to avoid that unnecessary use of time.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me first ask a question to the witness.  Witness

25     26, when you testified in the first case, did you tell the truth to the

Page 9657

 1     best of your recollection on any matter that you were asked about?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, you have to understand that

 3     I had been very close to all the events.  I was on location.  I'm

 4     mentioned people who are now prosecutors in Bosnia-Herzegovina and we

 5     were all afraid at the time and we all --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there.  I had a rather simple

 7     question, whether or not you did tell the truth when you testified in the

 8     first case to the best of your recollection?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's impossible to answer with just

10     yes or no.  I'm telling you that we all wanted to grovel up to the OTP,

11     we mentioned names, we dropped names in order to save ourselves.  We had

12     been very close to the events in our local midst; that's a notorious

13     fact.  Second of all, at the moment when Hague issued all of the

14     indictments, we didn't know what would happen and we were all under

15     pressure, we all felt blackmailed when all the indictments were issued,

16     the situation changed, the tables turned.  It may sound a bit silly now,

17     but that's how things were.  And if you want me to testify in these

18     proceedings, I would like to answer questions about certain individuals.

19     I gave my solemn declaration to speak the truth and I would like to do

20     that.  I met with the OTP some 20 times in all sorts of ways.  I don't

21     want this to be mentioned in these proceedings and that's why I wrote in

22     my letter that I didn't want to meet with the gentleman from the Office

23     of the Prosecutor before this trial.  And finally, I would like to be a

24     witness of the Court.  I was subpoenaed to be a witness of the Court and

25     I don't want to be a witness of the Prosecution.

Page 9658

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, even if you are called by the Prosecution or

 2     called by the Defence, witnesses have only one duty, to tell to the Court

 3     what the truth is, so to that extent although the selection of a witness

 4     may differ from one party it to another, but once you are in this

 5     courtroom, you are a witness - although called by one of the parties - a

 6     witness of the truth, and it's the truth the Chamber is seeking.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will proceed as follows:  Mr. Jordash,

 9     we'll hear, but not immediately, any submissions you would like to make

10     in relation to the statement given by the witness in 2008.  You'll have

11     an opportunity to do that.

12             Meanwhile, Witness JF-026, you will have a break already now.

13     You are invited to read again to the extent possible and tell us after

14     the break the statement, the 114 bullet points, as you said, and after

15     the break to tell us not the portions that may need clarification at this

16     moment, but first of all to tell us where in this 114 bullet points you

17     find something which you consider to be wrong, not to be in accordance

18     with the truth.  So either that you didn't say it, or not said a similar

19     thing, or that although you may have said it, that it's nevertheless not

20     true.

21             You are invited to do that over the next -- a little bit over

22     half an hour.  Meanwhile, the Chamber will hear further submissions from

23     the parties.  Is that clear, witness?  Do you have something to write?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then you are invited to follow the usher and

Page 9659

 1     to do what I asked you to do.  I add to this that it would have saved a

 2     lot of time if this all would have been done already before you appeared

 3     in court because it takes now an enormous amount of time, but that's the

 4     situation we are in.  We would have appreciated this to have been done

 5     before you came to the courtroom.  Could you please follow the usher.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, I'm also looking at the clock.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  That's what I was going to raise, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, at the same time, if you want the Chamber to

10     proceed after the break, if there's one or two minutes which you could

11     explain what apparently your concerns are, I'm also looking at

12     Mr. Stanisic, we also could have a break in a couple of minutes, because

13     it then allows us to further think about the present situation.

14             MR. JORDASH:  In a nutshell, I think the problem is this:  That

15     this witness has provided evidence on a number of occasions in a number

16     of ways.  Off the top of my head, it's probably in excess of six or seven

17     different modes of providing detailed evidence.  It's taken me several

18     days just to get through it all and to annotate and work out what the

19     witness has said on different occasions, there are many differences.  And

20     so we are concerned that the way we are proceeding, trying to admit the

21     evidence pursuant to 92 ter is -- is artificial because even the request

22     for the witness to sit down and look at this statement in our submission

23     makes -- and offer up what he now says is inaccurate or in need of

24     clarification is a somewhat artificial exercise because he couldn't

25     possibly in our submission, do it in the next half an hour, hour, or even

Page 9660

 1     probably in a day.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's also the reason why I phrased my

 3     instruction to the witness not to tell us what needed further

 4     clarification, but just what is wrong, either I didn't say it or didn't

 5     say a similar thing, as I said, or it's wrong although I may have said

 6     it.  Which excludes for the time being, and I'm not yet at the point of

 7     finally deciding on admission of this statement, but at least focuses

 8     first of all on clear elements in his statement which are not in

 9     accordance with the truth, if you need further clarifications, they are

10     not untruthful but they are not fully understandable or that they are --

11     so let's take it step by step.  And I do see the issue you raise, but you

12     said the way in which the statement was produced, you would like to

13     address that.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Well, it's a bit unclear from what I've read

15     exactly how the statement was produced, but what it does appear to me is

16     that it was produced from both the evidence in trial 1 and also his --

17     the witness 's suspect interview, and it's, in our submission, a pretty

18     selective collation, it has things which I would -- was surprised had

19     been missed out personally.  And so to ask the witness to be looking at

20     the statement and to -- this creates the added difficulty that it was

21     created by someone else and put before him.  The witness has just

22     clarified the pressure he felt under to give the Prosecution something

23     useful and so again it -- we are one step in our submission, further away

24     from 92 ter and again putting the witness, in our submission, under

25     pressure which will only in our submission lead to further inaccuracies

Page 9661

 1     and thirdly, can I very briefly say.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Given what the witness has said, we may well be

 4     heading in a situation where Your Honours may feel you have to warn the

 5     witness about self-incrimination and that is an added difficulty.  Those

 6     are just my initial thoughts, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Petrovic, anything to add.

 8             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, only one point, I

 9     support everything my colleague Mr. Jordash has said.  Now, a statement

10     which covers several years, dozens of people and events cannot be checked

11     in terms of the witness pointing to what was true and what was not true

12     from amongst the things he said.  So I join my learned friend

13     Mr. Jordash.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

15             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, so the record is accurate about the

16     witness's opportunity to read the statement, it's not that he would be

17     just looking at it for the first time.  When the witness indicated

18     through VWS that he would decline to meet anyone from the OTP, I had

19     prepared a binder of his prior evidence and asked VWS to hand it to him.

20     When they said that they would not, I asked would they inquire of the

21     witness whether he would receive a binder of his prior evidence so that

22     he could read it in advance of his appearing here today.  On the 28th, I

23     received the following e-mail from VWS:

24             "For your information when our staff informed the witness that

25     statements would be handed out to him tomorrow, Monday, he informed us

Page 9662

 1     that it is not necessary to meet Rita Pradan as he already has the

 2     statement from his testimony, both in hard copy and on the CD, he has

 3     been listening to his testimony prior to the arrival in the Hague.  He

 4     also has a laptop with him and will continue to listen to it before

 5     appearing at court."

 6             So I took from that that he was actively engaged in not only

 7   (redacted)

 8     case.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you the Chamber will consider how to proceed.

10     We'll take a break first, I apologise for having such a long first

11     session.  We resume at 20 minutes past 4.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 3.51 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 4.24 p.m.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that the parties have had an

16     opportunity to familiarise themselves with the letter the witness has

17     sent by fax to the Victims and Witness Section.

18             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

19                           Questioned by the Court on Protective Measures:

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness JF-026, we verified with the Victims and

21     Witness Section during the break the communications of the last week.

22     First of all, I was informed that the Victims and Witness Section had

23     responded to your letter, that the fax connections were unstable at the

24     time and that for that reason in a telephone conversation they read their

25     answer to you and that they agreed that they would send that telefax the

Page 9663

 1     next day when you were close to your fax machine; is that correct?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means that your observation that you never

 4     received an answer is not very accurate.  In that response, it will be

 5     made available to the parties at a later stage -- well, as you may have

 6     noticed, the first and the second issues are of a rather practical

 7     nature.  The third one, the last one, I just summarised the response.

 8     The response is that this Tribunal's mandate does not make it competent

 9     to either facilitate nor that the Tribunal has no power, and also that

10     it's not within its competence to facilitate issuing any EU citizenship

11     or that of the United States of America, for any witness or their family

12     members.  And the last line is:

13             "Should you have any security concerns, the VWS protection unit

14     will be available to discuss them with you when you arrive.  Please

15     inform" and then the name of the officer present upon arrival is

16     mentioned.  "Please inform" that person "if you would like to meet with a

17     protection officer."

18             I was informed that upon arrival you informed the relevant

19     officer of the Victims and Witness Section that you wished to see a

20     protection officer; is that correct?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  They then informed me that they tried to make -- to

23     arrange for a meeting with you on Monday but that you were not available

24     because you were shopping with your family and that therefore no meeting

25     could be arranged on that day; is that correct?

Page 9664

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us what, in your view, then happened?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had agreed that I would be

 4     waiting for them yesterday at 5.00 p.m. and that we would discuss the

 5     issue of the -- with the protection officer, but they informed me that it

 6     would be postponed for the end of my testimony.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That's about yesterday.  I'm talking about the day

 8     before yesterday, Monday.  Did you make yourself available on Monday to

 9     meet with a protection officer or were you busy shopping?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was available on Monday.

11     However, they told me that I would meet with them on Tuesday at 5.00

12     p.m., but it's not true that on Monday I wasn't available.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll continue.  So therefore there's a divergence in

14     the story.  I was then informed that they contacted you on Tuesday where

15     you were called on your mobile phone and you apparently were in town and

16     that you asked to meet between 3.00 and 4.00; is that accurate

17     information?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  They then, as I was told, they then brought to your

20     attention that a meeting between 3.00 and 4.00 would create a logistical

21     problem and whether you agreed to meet after your testimony and that you

22     then consented to that proposal?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I also do understand that you did not insist at that

25     moment to say, no, I really need to see you before my testimony, but that

Page 9665

 1     you did not express any further security concerns at that moment apart

 2     from the reference in the letter just saying that your identity was

 3     published in 2003, that you did not express any additional security

 4     concerns at that moment?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I further asked whether since your testimony in the

 7     second case you ever, either you yourself or your lawyer, contacted VWS

 8     in relation to any security concerns.  The answer was that you had not.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know who the

10     individual was from their section whom I talked to, but I think that

11     during my discussions before the special court in Belgrade with

12     Judge Dilparic that I referred to earlier on, there was somebody who

13     appeared to be taking notes as well.  But I don't know what his actual

14     position was, what his function was.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We will verify whether anyone of the Tribunal was

16     present during those conversations.  But at least after that you did not

17     contact, although there have been frequent contact about all kind of

18     travel arrangements.  The answer by VWS to your letter starts:

19             "Firstly, we wish to apologise for the frequent phone calls you

20     have received over the last few weeks."  So there has been frequent

21     contact.  Can you confirm that?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There have been frequent contact

23     but they had to do with the date on which I was supposed to appear.

24     Initially, it was the 22nd then the 27th then the 29th so it only had to

25     do with the date of my appearance.

Page 9666

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You did not raise any security concerns or you

 2     didn't ask for any further contacts in relation to security concerns at

 3     that moment, did you?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't because I realized it was

 5     futile and I would not be getting in touch with them for any reason.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber has gained an impression of the

 7     communications between the witness and the Tribunal and does not consider

 8     the cause of these events such that we should not at this moment hear the

 9     testimony of the witness.

10             Mr. Groome, there have been a few matters, we'll first ask the

11     witness whether he can point at any portions of his statement which he

12     considers to be not in accordance with the truth.  That's another matter

13     of whether they are complete or not.  The Chamber will defer its decision

14     on admission of any 92 ter statements at this moment, we'll first --

15     we'll first hear the answer of the witness.

16             Witness JF-026, could you tell us when reading the 114 paragraphs

17     or the portion that you were able to read, are there any portions which

18     you could point at as saying that they are not true?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are some points which do not

20     reflect my evidence since an audio recording was made at the time and a

21     written summarised version of it, I signed it as it was at the time.  My

22     lawyer Tomic was present, and well, I signed it simply because we had

23     very little time before my flight.  And if I look at point 90 here, the

24     Orthodox bishop is referred to here as an archbishop, so that's just one

25     point.

Page 9667

 1             And --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you tell us one by one.  We have

 3     pointed that you say 90, the bishop is an archbishop.  That is, let me

 4     see, I have some difficulties in finding any -- even a bishop in number

 5     90.  Do you have it in front of you?  Could you tell us what line?  I

 6     can't find the bishop in paragraph 90, could you assist us, Witness

 7     JF-026?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My mistake, 102.  I apologise.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you would say the Zvornik-Tuzla bishop,

10     Kacavenda, is an archbishop.  That is -- could we take it any further

11     comments on matters which are not true.  By the way an archbishop is

12     still a bishop, so to that extent it's not untrue but that's a

13     clarification.  I'm not seeking at this moment, this kind of

14     clarification, but I'm primarily looking at portions of your statement

15     where you say this is wrong.  Any other portions?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Point 32, paragraph 32.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we are with you, 32.  What is wrong?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that where security

19     services mentioned it should state either civilian or military.

20     Evidently at the time the Prosecutor knew the point he was driving and I

21     didn't know what I was talking about.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Security service.  Let me see, I find a reference to

23     state security in the third line, then I see another reference to the

24     Serbian state security in the sixth line, but let me see --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judges, I'm sorry, there is no

Page 9668

 1     mention of the Serbian state.

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if there's a translation issue, then I need to

 4     have a look at the original as well.  Is there any translation issue

 5     there, Mr. Petrovic?

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] There is, Your Honour.  In the

 7     signed version which is a Serbian version it reads "security service"

 8     which is a general term, quite indefinite.  Whereas in paragraph 32 in

 9     translation it is written "Serbian state security."

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, that word appears twice, is in both cases is it

11     your position that a reference is made to security services, that it

12     means both on the second to third line and also in the sixth line?  Is

13     both instances a general reference to security services as far as you are

14     concerned?

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's what it reads,

16     from the Serbian state security.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Or rather, interpreter's correction:  It says

18     Serbian security service.

19             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Which is different from the

20     Serbian state security as it reads in your translation.  And in my

21     understanding --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That apparently is a matter which needs

23     further attention as far as translation is concerned.

24             Witness JF-026, any other instance where --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Paragraph 37.

Page 9669

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  37, yes.  Tell us what is not right.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here I'm explaining my acquaintance

 3     with Rade Kostic.  This is something that I explained and you can hear it

 4     in the audiotape, that Rade Kostic was from Zvornik and I knew him at the

 5     time when he was -- I knew him from the time when he lived in Darda in

 6     Croatia, but that I knew that later on he became an employee of the state

 7     security service, that's not true because I never was in touch with him

 8     while he was in that capacity.  I was never in his office.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is a part of

12     what the witness just said that has not been interpreted.  Can he please

13     answer the question again so that I do not suggest what he said.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you guide us in relation to what Mr. --

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Well, line 24, after he said that

16     he lived in Darda, he also said who he was a member of.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Kostic told me that he was a

18     high functionary of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of the

19     Serbian Krajina at the time.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is on the record as well.  It might be

21     that this is a matter which could be verified also on the basis of

22     documentary evidence, but we may have two issues, first translation,

23     second content.

24             You said you listened to the audio, and have you explained it

25     properly in the audio?

Page 9670

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That wasn't important in those

 2     proceedings.  Nobody ever asked me anything about that.  I'm talking

 3     about the audiotape that was made when the summary of this text was done.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear to me.  We have had no access to that

 5     audio, but I take it that Mr. Groome, you could help us if there's any

 6     need to further listen to that audio.

 7             Could you tell us what else you noted as being incorrect?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bullet point 44, paragraph 44.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please explain.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is where I speak why Marko

11     Pavlovic came to Zvornik, what I wanted to say here is that I had met

12     Pavlovic in Darda in the Republic of Serbian Krajina, where he was the TO

13     commander for the town of Darda.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You said you knew Mr. Pavlovic because you had

15     met --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That you had met him in Darda where he was the --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Baranja, yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Nothing here says you met him in any other way, but

20     this apparently then adds to how you got acquainted with Mr. Pavlovic.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Also bullet point 90.  Nine zero.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please tell us.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says here that I took cigarettes

24     to the MUP members -- members ever the MUP of Republika Srpska in

25     Bratunac.  No, I apologise, everything is fine here.  No.

Page 9671

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Next item where you say things are not in accordance

 2     with the truth or reality.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, this basically is all that I

 4     noticed.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  So apart from the fact that you think that some of

 6     the -- that part of the statement you made needs perhaps further

 7     clarification, these are the clear inaccuracies which you identified.

 8     Now, did I understand you well that you had an opportunity to read this

 9     before you came to court and that you had an opportunity to, although

10     briefly, read it over the half-hour break as well?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, as far as the audios are concerned, I do

13     understand that you received yesterday an audio of the -- of your

14     testimony in the second case.  Were you able to listen to that?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll not further deal with it in much detail, but

17     did you find clear inaccuracies in that audio of your second -- of your

18     testimony in the second case?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, I was informed, but please correct me when it's

21     not true, that you were offered at an earlier stage to listen to the

22     audio of the testimony in the first case, but when this was offered to

23     you that you had told the person offering it to you, which was someone of

24     VWS, that you were already in the possession of that first audio and that

25     you had listened to it already.  Is that correct?

Page 9672

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.  But I thought that that

 2     concerned the audio recording of this summary.  I didn't realise that we

 3     are talking about the audiotape from the first trial.  It is, however,

 4     correct that I was offered to listen to some other audiotapes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you are talking about the audio of the --

 6     of this summary, are you talking about the audio of an interview, the

 7     interview which resulted in your 2008 statement, is that what you are

 8     referring to, or is there any other audio?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me tell you, there are a

10     few, but I meant the year 2008 when a summary was finally made of all of

11     my statements.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And when you gave that, in 2008, statement,

13     was that audio recorded, that interview?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, if there would be any challenge to

16     whether the witness would have said as is found in his written statement,

17     would that audio recording, is that available?

18             MR. GROOME:  It is, Your Honour.  Just so the record is correct,

19     it's a video, so it has video plus audio recording.  Your Honour, I think

20     it's also important to note throughout that interview the witness's

21     lawyer sat at his side and advised him.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Was that the litigated video, was that the one?

23             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, that's then clear which gives the

25     opportunity to verify whether this statement as we find it on paper is

Page 9673

 1     accurately reflects what was said during that interview.

 2             Under the present circumstances also in view of the answers given

 3     by the witness, the Chamber allows Mr. Groome to proceed.  The Chamber

 4     does not yet decide on admission of the statement or any of the

 5     transcripts.  The Chamber reserves its position as far as whether at any

 6     moment the Chamber would prefer to hear the evidence more in a viva voce

 7     way rather than by referring to a statement or transcript, but at the

 8     same time allows you, Mr. Groome, to proceed on the basis of an

 9     assumption that 92 ter might appropriately be applied here.

10             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   JF-026, you have just in an answering Judge Orie's questions

12     described a number of corrections that you wish to make to your statement

13     from 2008 and to your testimony in the second case.  Now that you have

14     taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm the accuracy and truthfulness

15     of your prior evidence if it's taken in conjunction with your corrections

16     which you've just stated on the record?

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  If there is any objection to this question, you

19     would have to limit yourself ...

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly ask

21     you to allow me to say two sentences.  This all sounds very artificial --

22     please allow me to say two sentences.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, I'm here in charge, would you please

24     keep that in mind.  Do you speak any English, witness?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

Page 9674

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you take your earphones off until I -- yes.

 2     Mr. Petrovic, I wanted to instruct the witness to take his earphones off.

 3     Under those circumstances, you should patiently wait until I have

 4     finished what I wanted to say, and then I would have decided on your

 5     application to give two sentences.  You may address the Court.

 6             MR. PETROVIC:  Sorry, Your Honour, I just wanted to say, to ask

 7     the Trial Chamber to look at the portion of his testimony today, pages

 8     30.  Over there he expressed his view that his previous statements were

 9     given under specific circumstances which influenced truthfulness of those

10     statements.  So I'm not sure we can proceed having that in mind on this

11     basis.  And I'm sorry, Your Honour, for --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, that is exactly what we considered

13     when we said that the Chamber will not yet decide on admission of the

14     92 ter statement and something you have not heard often from my mouth is

15     that the Chamber would consider it's possible that at any stage we would

16     rather have the evidence be elicited as viva voce.  So that's exactly --

17     these are the kind of reasons which we had on our mind when we decided to

18     take this course.

19             This having been considered by the Chamber, we will invite the

20     witness to put his earphones on again, and Mr. Groome may proceed.

21     Witness.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Groome.

23                           Examination by Mr. Groome:

24        Q.   JF-026, you did not have a chance to answer the question.  So

25     that there's no confusion, now that you've taken the solemn declaration

Page 9675

 1     do you affirm the truthfulness and accuracy of the statement you gave in

 2     2008 and your testimony in the second case if it's taken in conjunction

 3     with the corrections you've just identified for Judge Orie?

 4        A.   I believe that those circumstances were different then and I must

 5     admit that we played tactical games at the time.  All of us did, and you

 6     can understand this any way you want.

 7        Q.   I'm asking you to confine yourself to the very specific questions

 8     that Judge Orie asked you with respect to your 2008 statement.  Is there

 9     anything in that statement, apart from what you've already told us, which

10     is not the truth?

11             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry to leap to my feet, but I feel compelled to

12     object to the continued questions.  I think in our submission --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's try to -- let's try to cut those matters

14     short.

15             Witness JF-026, I asked you whether you had reviewed your 2008

16     statement, whether you went through it again and what was not in

17     accordance with the truth.  You gave us a few -- you gave us a few

18     comments on the content.  You took us through the various paragraphs.

19     Now, apart from whether your answers were always complete, are there any

20     other matters in that statement where, reading it again, you say it's not

21     true what is stated there, either because you didn't say it or because

22     what you said is not in accordance with the truth.  Are there any other

23     such matters?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, most of the things contained

25     in here are the things that I did say.  However, I still believe that

Page 9676

 1     this summary can provide a completely different picture to what I

 2     actually said.  Having said that, I did say what I said.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And did you lie or did you speak the truth when

 4     you -- I'm not asking you whether you said everything, but whether you

 5     specifically did not tell the truth?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you can call it the truth or

 7     not.  I told you that all of us who were close to the events played

 8     tactical games in order to put ourselves in the OTP's good books.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then tell us where you played a tactical game which

10     makes your statement untruthful apart from the portions you addressed

11     already.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the -- that would apply to

13     the entire statement.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You would say it's all untruthful, the whole

15     statement is untruthful?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  90 per cent of it is truthful

17     and adjusted to what the OTP wanted to hear.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you give us one example where you told us you

19     told anything where you thought that the OTP wanted to hear something

20     which differs from what is the truth?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The example was the second

22     statement where I mention Mr. Zoran Subotic.  He was the deputy minister

23     in Milosevic's government and he was also a very close collaborator of

24     Seselj and when I said that Zoran Subotic had been mobilised by the

25     JNA --

Page 9677

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Second statement, are you talking about the one that

 2     had the 114 paragraphs, the bullet points, this one, which you reviewed

 3     during the break?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know where that is

 5     mentioned.  I don't know the number, and that gentleman is mentioned

 6     there.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's actually bullet point 65.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's have a look at it.  It reads:

10             "Zoran Subotic was replaced by Zoran Pazin as commander of the TO

11     who was soon arrested and replaced by Marko Pavlovic."

12             Now, tell us what game you played here and why it is not true

13     because you gave an answer which the OTP wanted to hear and which is not

14     in accordance with the truth?  Let's take it one by one; was

15     Zoran Subotic replaced by Zoran Pazin as commander of the TO?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, this is correct, however, in

17     the statement --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Was Zoran Pazin soon arrested and then replaced by

19     Marko Pavlovic?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So that statement is fully correct, if I understand

22     you well.  If we are talking about your testimony, we'll deal with

23     that --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, bullet point 65.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You have drawn our attention to it.  In view

Page 9678

 1     of the -- in view of the testimonies, we'll discuss that at later stage.

 2     We, at this moment, focus on your statement.  Any other matter in your

 3     statement at this moment where you can point at an answer which is not

 4     truthful and explained by you as a result of playing games?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember.  I don't know,

 6     there's nothing.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that you reviewed this statement

 8     before you came to court and that you spent another half an hour on it

 9     during the last break; is that correctly understood?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, you may proceed.

12             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that P1623 in evidence be brought up to

13     the screens.

14        Q.   JF-026, I am going to ask that you be shown a photograph in which

15     one person in the photograph is circled.  I would like you to focus on

16     the person who is circled and tell us if you recognise that person.  If

17     it assists you in determining whether you recognise this person, I can

18     show you a short video-clip in which this person is walking.  The photo

19     on the screen before you is a still photo made from that video.  Do you

20     recognise the person who is circled?

21        A.   This is not a very good photo, is it?  I really don't recognise

22     the person.

23             MR. GROOME:  I am going to ask that 65 ter 596 --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Mr. Groome.

25             MR. GROOME:  I'm going to ask that 65 ter 596.3 be played for the

Page 9679

 1     witness.

 2        Q.   I will play the video for which this still photograph is taken

 3     and you will see the person enter the room.  See if this assists you in

 4     whether you recognise the person.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MR. GROOME:

 7        Q.   We can see the person enter the room now.  Do you recognise that

 8     person?

 9        A.   I'm not sure but I believe that that was Arkan's Major Peja.

10        Q.   So the record is clear, when you are identifying someone as

11     Arkan's Major Peja, is that the person who was circled in the photograph?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Did you see this person in Zvornik?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Can you tell us when the first time you saw this person in

16     Zvornik was?

17        A.   As a matter of fact, I saw him in Bijeljina even before that.

18     I'm not sure about the date.  I believe that it was either on the 5th or

19     6th of April, 1992.

20        Q.   Can you describe what circumstances you saw this person in

21     Bijeljina on that approximate date?

22        A.   Well, that was a day after an armed conflict broke out in

23     Bijeljina, the JNA barracks came under attack and that developed into a

24     fully-blown conflict.  They asked for help.  I was sent to Bijeljina

25     where Arkan's Unit was and my task was to bring them over to Zvornik and

Page 9680

 1     to billet them there to help us because we requested assistance.

 2        Q.   You've just testified that you were sent to Bijeljina.  Who sent

 3     you to Bijeljina?

 4        A.   Well, we called that the department of the ministry for looking

 5     after non-Serbs and Mr. Bogdanovic was in charge.  I was referred to

 6     Mr. Kostic, I called him and he told me to go to Bijeljina to find a man

 7     whose name was Arkan.

 8        Q.   What is the first name of the person you've just referred to as

 9     Mr. Kostic?

10        A.   Radoslav or Rade Kostic.

11        Q.   With as much precision as you are able, what did Rade Kostic tell

12     you when he sent you to Bijeljina?

13        A.   Well, it was a long time ago so I can only tell you that that was

14     more or less what he told me.  That Arkan's Unit was in Bijeljina, that I

15     should report to them, to tell them that we had a problem in Zvornik, and

16     that they should go from Bijeljina to Zvornik.

17        Q.   At the time that you were instructed to go to Bijeljina, do you

18     know if the decision had already been made to send Arkan to Zvornik?

19        A.   I don't know whether such a decision had been made.  That was the

20     first time I ever heard of Arkan.  Actually, I had bought a newspaper at

21     the news stand, the Sarajevo Oslobodjenje and the front page depicted a

22     photo from Bijeljina.  There was a dead body on the street, somebody was

23     kicking that dead body and the title was "War in Bijeljina, Arkan

24     plunders and murders."  That was the title on the front page of that

25     newspaper.

Page 9681

 1        Q.   A few minutes ago on page 53 at line 18 you said the following:

 2             "My task was to bring them over to Zvornik and to billet them

 3     there."

 4             At the time you were sent up to Bijeljina, was it your

 5     understanding that you were to make arrangements for their billeting in

 6     Zvornik?

 7        A.   Well, you see, let me tell you this:  My task was to seek

 8     assistance.  We couldn't billet them in Zvornik because Zvornik had been

 9     occupied by Muslims.  All of us Serbs had been expelled by Zvornik; we

10     could not even come close to the city and that's why we billeted them in

11     a hotel across the river from Zvornik and the name of the hotel is

12     Radaljska Banja.

13        Q.   In your prior evidence in your statement of 2008, you describe

14     two visits of Biljana Plavsic to Zvornik, the first one before the

15     outbreak of conflict and the second one after.  Can I ask you to assist

16     us with the chronology of when you went to Bijeljina, was it before or

17     after Ms. Plavsic's first visit to Zvornik?

18        A.   My departure to Bijeljina has nothing to do with

19     Biljana Plavsic's visit to Zvornik.  I went to Bijeljina in order to seek

20     assistance from Arkan and his volunteers.  I wanted them to come to

21     Zvornik.  Biljana Plavsic visited Zvornik for the first time before the

22     fighting broke out.  It could have been either the 7th or the 8th of

23     April, 1992.  I do know that when I left to Bijeljina to see Arkan,

24     Fikret Abdic had been to Bijeljina and that's what they told us back in

25     the staff.

Page 9682

 1        Q.   Can you describe for us which members of Arkan's organisation you

 2     spoke with in Bijeljina about coming to Zvornik?

 3        A.   I went to the community centre in Bijeljina.  There were quite a

 4     few people there from Bijeljina whom I know and quite a few of those who

 5     I didn't know who wore uniforms.  At one point a man entered the room,

 6     everybody sprang to their feet.  Somebody said it was Arkan.  I

 7     approached him, introduced myself to him, described to him what the

 8     problem was that we had in Zvornik, and then he instructed the men we saw

 9     on the photograph, Pejic, to take some 20 men and to follow me to

10     Zvornik.

11        Q.   And was Major Peja present at that time?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Who did you believe Arkan worked for at that time?

14        A.   I think that more than anything else he worked for his own

15     benefit.  But I also know that he arrived in Zvornik at the time with a

16     licence plate of the federal SUP because normally you could tell by the

17     first number of the licence plate to whom -- who it belonged to.  I saw

18     that his licence plate had "9" as the first number which denoted that it

19     was from the federal level.  So he came to Zvornik in the official car of

20     the federal SUP.

21        Q.   Were there any other letters or numbers from that licence plate

22     that you recall?

23        A.   I think that in one of the statements I even stated the number,

24     but I can't recall it now.

25        Q.   In your prior evidence you describe volunteers arriving from

Page 9683

 1     Serbia.  Do you recall giving that evidence?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   How did they arrive in Zvornik?

 4        A.   Among other things there were several calls from our Crisis Staff

 5     in Zvornik and from various political parties which dispatched their

 6     volunteers as well as from some groups that were arriving.  For the most

 7     part these were volunteers which had had some combat experience at the

 8     front line in Croatia.

 9        Q.   How did they arrive in Zvornik?  Did they take their own

10     transportation, was transportation provided for them?  What was the means

11     on which they came?

12        A.   There were various means of transportation, some came with their

13     own vehicles, others with organised transport, for others it would be the

14     Crisis Staff that would organise.  If there was a group of volunteer

15     appearing at the Crisis Staff, we would arrange transportation for them.

16     There were also instances where political parties would get involved as

17     well if they supported this sort of activity.

18        Q.   Did some of these people arrive with their own weapons?

19        A.   I believe that some did, yes, because they had already been to

20     the front line in Croatia.

21        Q.   For those in the courtroom who may not be familiar with the

22     geography of Zvornik, is it true that the river Drina flows along the

23     border between Bosnia and Serbia through Zvornik, and the Bosnian portion

24     of Zvornik is on the west bank and Mali Zvornik, which lies in Serbia, is

25     on the east bank?  Is that correct?

Page 9684

 1        A.   Yes.  The Drina is a administrative border between Serbia and

 2     Bosnia throughout the territory of the Zvornik municipality.  We are now

 3     discussing a period of time when Bosnia had not yet been recognised.  In

 4     our mind this was one state, one territory because the JNA was still

 5     present in Zvornik in the time-period we are discussing.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I stop you there.  I think Mr. Groome wanted

 7     to know whether the Drina separated the Mali Zvornik from the Bosnian

 8     Zvornik and I think you have answered that question by your first yes and

 9     by the following sentence.  Mr. Groome, please proceed.  Could you please

10     focus your answers very much on what is asked.

11             MR. GROOME:

12        Q.   In your prior evidence, you describe the relationship

13     Marko Pavlovic had with the Serbian state security service.  Can I ask

14     you to describe that for us today?

15        A.   I described how I came to meet him.  We were at the ministry for

16     the Serbs outside of Serbia.  We saw that the war was in the offing and

17     based on some historical experience, we asked for them to procure weapons

18     for us.  They told us that we should report to Darda at Kostic's.  That

19     was when I met Marko Pavlovic.  I know that his name at the time was

20     Branko Popovic.  He was the TO commander for the town of Darda.  Since at

21     that point the hostilities had come to a stop in the Republic of Croatia,

22     he moved to Zvornik where he assisted us in the arming effort because he

23     had very good connections in the JNA.  It's common knowledge that the

24     Tuzla Corps headed by General Sabo Jankovic, its commander, was aware of

25     his stay in Zvornik.

Page 9685

 1        Q.   Can I ask a few different questions.  You've identified this

 2     person as having two names, do you know which was his rightful name and

 3     if you do, tell us which one it was?

 4        A.   I know his real name is Branko Popovic.

 5        Q.   When did he begin using the name Marko Pavlovic?

 6        A.   Well, the first time I heard him use the name was when the

 7     conflict in Zvornik broke out, when he was introduced to us as

 8     Major Marko Pavlovic.

 9        Q.   Do you know why he began to use an alias when he took up duties

10     in Zvornik?

11        A.   Well, he used a false name and a false rank probably to protect

12     his identity in order for it not to be revealed.  To my knowledge, he was

13     not a major.

14        Q.   Did there come a time when he was arrested?

15        A.   At some point, perhaps in June of 1992, he and a group of

16     volunteers were arrested in Zvornik.  This came as a great surprise to us

17     because he was a person of great authority in that community.

18        Q.   Who arrested him?

19        A.   He was arrested by the police of the Republika Srpska.  As far as

20     I know, he spent several days in the prison in Bijeljina.

21        Q.   Was he released after spending several days in the prison in

22     Bijeljina?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Do you know a person by the name of Zuca?

25        A.   Yes, he led a group of volunteers in Zvornik.

Page 9686

 1        Q.   What was the name of the group of volunteers, if you know?

 2        A.   Yellow Wasps.

 3        Q.   Do you know Zuca's full name?

 4        A.   Vojin Vuckovic.

 5        Q.   Was he also arrested?

 6        A.   Yes.  He was arrested together with the group including

 7     Marko Popovic.

 8        Q.   He was arrested at the same time as Marko Pavlovic; is that

 9     correct?

10        A.   Yes, we are talking about the same person, Branko Popovic,

11     Marko Pavlovic.

12        Q.   Was he also released after two to three days?

13        A.   As far as I know they were all released.

14             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I see that we are nearing the break.

15     Could I ask that the witness be escorted out, there is a brief matter I'd

16     like to discuss with the Chamber before I continue with my examination.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'll take a break but you'll first be escorted

18     out of the the courtroom.  We'd like to see you back in half an hour,

19     Witness JF-026.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I recognise that we are in an unusual

23     predicament at the moment.  If -- how I continue with my examination

24     would depend upon the Chamber's decision on the 92 ter, I only have a few

25     more questions if the evidence is accepted in 92 ter.  So I would

Page 9687

 1     appreciate some guidance whether to continue asking some more detailed

 2     questions but I feel after not a very long period of time I've -- I would

 3     have come to the junction that I would -- it would be important to know,

 4     if possible.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, you asked for guidance, not for a

 7     decision yet, and the Chamber at this moment would give you the guidance

 8     that you, as we said before, you can proceed as if a 92 ter application

 9     was appropriately been made.  Now, that hasn't changed since I said that.

10     However, the Chamber reserves its right to finally decide on the matter,

11     but in view of this guidance, if during cross-examination there suddenly

12     other reasons would arise why the Chamber would be unwilling to accept

13     the 92 ter application, then an additional opportunity will be given to

14     you to further examine the witness.  So by acting on the basis of the

15     assumption that 92 ter might appropriately be applied, if that assumption

16     turns out finally not to be true, then an additional opportunity will be

17     given to you to elicit further evidence which is then missing because you

18     couldn't apply 92 ter.  Is that sufficient guidance?

19             MR. GROOME:  That is, Your Honours, that's helpful.  Can I ask

20     that the Chamber consider during the break, I do have a copy of the

21   (redacted)

22     exhibits he gave evidence about, whether the Chamber would consider

23     directing him to review that tonight and making notes in the margin and

24     then giving me an opportunity to go through any corrections tomorrow.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, when I earlier said that we'll deal with the

Page 9688

 1     transcript at the a later stage that was one of the things that the

 2     Chamber, I with the other judges, had on our mind.

 3             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Does this raise any questions or further comments?

 5     If not, we'll take a break and resume at 6.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 5.32 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 6.03 p.m.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  The material Mr. Groome wanted to give to the

 9     witness has been inspected by the Defence teams as far as I understand,

10     therefore, Madam Registrar is instructed to provide the hard copy to the

11     witness at the end of today's hearing.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, are you ready to proceed?

14             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

15        Q.   JF-026, I now want to draw your attention to the portion of your

16     evidence in which you describe the second visit of Mrs. Plavsic after the

17     outbreak of conflict.  In response to a question in the first case about

18     what was discussed with her, you had said the following, I'm quoting from

19     the bottom of 21209:

20             "I informed her as far as I knew about the situation in Zvornik

21     after it was placed under the control of the Serbs of Zvornik and she

22     inquired as to the extent to which we were implementing the plans, how

23     organised we were."

24             My question is the following:  When you said implementing the

25     plans, what plans were you referring to?

Page 9689

 1        A.   Well, it's generally known that the Serbian Democratic Party,

 2   (redacted)

 3     already evident, drafted a plan of activity and in view of what

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina was like, there was a plan A which referred to the

 5     areas where Serbs were in a majority and where they were already in

 6     power, and I am talking about the local authorities, and there was a plan

 7     B relating to the areas where the Serbs were a minority.

 8        Q.   Which version or plan A or plan B did you inform her you were

 9     implementing?

10        A.   We were in a minority in Zvornik.  The Muslim population was in

11     the majority and according to the instructions, we had a plan B to

12     implement.

13        Q.   And to the best of your recollection, what aspects of plan B did

14     you inform her had been successfully implemented?

15        A.   Given that the international recognition of Bosnia and

16     Herzegovina was detrimental for us, we proceeded to implement plan B

17     which meant that all the territories where there were Serbs would be

18     placed under Serb control, the police force would be split into Serb and

19     Muslim forces, and a number of other activities that I can't recall at

20     present.

21             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time I have no further

22     questions.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.  Could I ask the Defence who

24     is going to cross-examine the witness first?  Mr. Petrovic, it's you?

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it's me, Your Honour.

Page 9690

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  By the way, Mr. Petrovic, when I early was a --

 2     earlier was a bit critical about that you didn't stop speaking, I

 3     appreciate it very much that you continued after that in English,

 4     apparently fully understanding what my concern was at the time.  That's

 5     appreciated.  Please proceed.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I wanted to

 7     apologise to you once again because I didn't understand your intervention

 8     properly at first but I would like to proceed with my cross-examination

 9     now.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I wasn't seeking further apologies.  I wanted to

11     express my appreciation for what you did immediately after that.  Please

12     proceed.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I know that that wasn't what you

14     were seeking, but I felt the need to do so.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, I will have some questions for you and

17     I kindly ask you to answer them, but please be mindful of the break that

18     you must make between question and answer because we speak the same

19     language.

20             Tell me, witness, when did you get in touch with the Prosecution

21     of the ICTY for the first time?  Do you remember the year?

22        A.   1999 or perhaps 1998.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel.

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Can you tell us what this first contact was like?

Page 9691

 1        A.   They invited me to come to Budapest.

 2        Q.   And did you go to Budapest?  What was it like?  Who did you meet?

 3        A.   The problem which is present in all these statements is that it

 4     was always somebody else and then you always had to correct them and

 5     explain it them that Slavonia was not Slovenia, that Slavonia was where

 6     it was, because they kept confusing these things.

 7        Q.   On this occasion in 1998 or 1999 did you give a statement, if you

 8     recall?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Tell us, please, what sort of status did you have, legally

11     speaking, in 1998, 1999, 2000, how did they treat you, if you know?

12        A.   As a suspect.

13        Q.   How did you understand the fact that you were regarded as a

14     suspect?

15        A.   Well, I already referred to it in passing.  I believe that I was

16     one step to being indictment -- indicted and I wanted to be as

17     forthcoming as possible in my contacts with the Prosecution.

18        Q.   In other words, there was this possibility open at all times for

19     you to be indicted, is that how you understood the situation to legally

20     be?

21        A.   Well, nobody told me that in so many words, but I did feel this

22     possibility hanging over me.

23        Q.   Tell me, if you know, up until what time did you hold the status

24     of suspect?  I observe that during your testimony in case 2 you were also

25     accompanied by a lawyer?

Page 9692

 1        A.   At that time I also gave a statement as a suspect.

 2        Q.   You told us today that the fact that for full ten years you were

 3     treated as a suspect had a bearing on the weight of your evidence.  Can

 4     you explain in what way this was?

 5        A.   Well, we from the local level wanted to appear interesting to the

 6     Prosecution and to achieve this we mentioned names of individuals whom we

 7     never met in person.  We tried to snuggle up to them.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, one second.  Your last question was

 9     translated as having a bearing on the weight of your evidence.  Of course

10     the weight is of evidence, I don't know whether, you used the equivalent

11     in your own language, but of course the weight is only to be decided by a

12     court.  But apparently the witness understood your question as being, and

13     it may have been that that was your question, in what way his position as

14     a suspect influenced the answers he gave when interviewed.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my question may have

16     not been interpreted properly.  I never thought for a moment, nor did I

17     say that I considered the legal weight of the evidence.  I just asked the

18     witness whether his status had a bearing on the contents and he answered.

19     I will continue with your leave.

20        Q.   You said that you shared the things with the Prosecutor that he

21     perhaps wanted to hear.  What is it, in your view, that the Prosecutor

22     wanted to hear from you and is now mentioned in this statement?

23        A.   These are the things that I mentioned and I did not participate

24     in those things directly.  I drew conclusions based on the things that I

25     heard about people whom I had never seen or spoken to.  Serbia had a

Page 9693

 1     status that it had been the international framework.  We were popular and

 2     we all competed in smearing Milosevic, smearing the regime and everything

 3     it represented.  That's what we all did.

 4        Q.   Are you saying that it was popular to speak about the

 5     involvements of Serbia in the events in Bosnia-Herzegovina, would that be

 6     one of those facts that you are mentioning now?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Mr. Petrovic.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   You didn't say that you were popular, but rather that it was very

11     popular to present claims about Serbia, Milosevic and his regime?

12        A.   Yes, you did and it was all done in a very negative context.

13        Q.   You thought that if you presented a fact, for example, about the

14     Serbian police, that that might have a bearing on changing your position

15     before the OTP, changing it for the better; right?

16        A.   Yes, that's correct.

17        Q.   And the facts that you presented about, for example, the Serbian

18     police, those were not things that you knew firsthand, those were just

19     rumours or unverified information or a combination of what you read in

20     the papers and what you heard from other people?

21   (redacted)

22     worked as a police employee.  I joined another company.  I was no longer

23     a police officer.

24        Q.   Within that context that we have now before us, when you spoke

25     about the Serbian police, this is not your direct knowledge; right?

Page 9694

 1        A.   No, this was not my direct knowledge.  This was a combination of

 2     rumours, newspaper articles, only the things that I participated in

 3     myself I describe with a hundred per cent accuracy.  As for the rest, I

 4     really don't know why we needed all that.

 5        Q.   When you told us earlier today that in your statements there are

 6     certain things that are correct, however, that the intention or the

 7     intonation of the statement itself does not reflect what you wanted to

 8     say, is that what you were saying, that you described your participation

 9     very accurately, but everything else falls under the category of rumours

10     and speculations?

11        A.   Precisely so, maybe I could not describe it as accurately as you

12     did now in legal terms.  I describe accurately only those things that I

13     participated in.  Everything else was my free interpretation which might

14     have led to erroneous conclusions amongst other things.

15        Q.   On several occasions you used the pronoun "we," are you referring

16     to some of your colleagues who participated in the events and who were in

17     a similar or even the identical position?

18        A.   Precisely so.  All of us who were at a local level close to fire,

19     those of us who were close to some incidents and events at a local level,

20     that's who I meant.

21        Q.   We are in closed session, sir, could you please give us a name of

22     the people who were involved in those events and who portrayed the events

23     in the same way while they provided the statements and while there was

24     still a threat upon you and your personal safety?

25        A.   Those were mostly members of the Crisis Staff in Zvornik, Radic,

Page 9695

 1     Grujic, Savic, Ivanovic, and some others whom I can't remember at the

 2     moment.  I can't remember all of the names.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, perhaps I'm mistaken, but I don't

 5     recall where the evidence said that he felt there was a threat to his

 6     personal safety.  Maybe Mr. Petrovic could indicate where that came in

 7     evidence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] A misinterpretation.  I said legal

10     status, not personal safety.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please turn his microphone

12     on.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, you are invited to turn your

14     microphone on, but that has been done.  Please proceed.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Petrovic kindly turn on and off his

16     microphone himself because we cannot hear the beginning and end of his

17     sentences because his colleague is doing it for him.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You got the point that before you start talking

19     about the microphone should be on and it should not be switched off

20     before you have finished.  And the tandem work is appreciated.  Please

21     proceed.

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

23        Q.   You mentioned certain names.  Does this refer to a person whose

24     name is Goran Zugic?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9696

 1        Q.   And what about Vojislav Jekic, the late Vojislav Jekic?

 2        A.   Yes.  All those persons were involved in the events and they had

 3     the same problem of relationship with The Hague Tribunal as I did.  It

 4     was a personal problem for all of us.

 5        Q.   Tell me, please, how was your 2008 statement created, if you

 6     remember?

 7        A.   It was created here in the offices of the Tribunal.  There is a

 8     video-clip, there is an audio recording of that statement.  We went

 9     through my previous statements and then 114 bullet points were drafted, I

10     signed them.  I didn't wait for the statement to be printed because I was

11     in a hurry to catch my flight.

12        Q.   Sir, this is not a result of an interview, but rather this is a

13     compilation of various prior statements that you provided between 1998

14     and 2008, did I understand you properly?

15        A.   Yes, they made an excerpt from all the prior statements of all

16     the things that they found interesting and that is a collection of all

17     those numerous prior statements that I had provided.

18        Q.   In other words, this is a selection but who made that selection,

19     who chose the paragraphs that we see today?

20        A.   It was done at the OTP's proposal.

21        Q.   Thank you.  To my learned friend's question you spoke about the

22     plans of the SDS, plan A and plan B, that is first of all, could you

23     please tell us what was your position in the SDS?  Were you a high

24     official, a local official?  What was your status within the party?

25        A.   I was a local official in Zvornik municipality.  I was the deputy

Page 9697

 1     president of the SDS, or rather, the deputy president of the Municipal

 2     Board of the SDS.

 3        Q.   In your position did you participate in formulating the SDS

 4     policies, did you participate in the work of the SDS for -- at the

 5     highest levels?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   As a local party member, in addition to what was general

 8     knowledge, did you have any information about what was being decided,

 9     what was being considered at the top of the party that formulated

10     policies for the entire state of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11        A.   No.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you one question in this respect.  You

13     talked about the instructions, plan A, plan B, was that not decided on

14     the SDS highest levels?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We received that as an instruction,

16     as a written instructions from the SDS leadership.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, if a question is put to you, did you have any

18     information about what was being decided, what was being considered at

19     the top of the party that formulated parties for the entire state of

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina, would that plan A and B not be an example of what was

21     decided on the highest levels for the whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, that was a decision made

23     at the very top of the party and applied to the entire state of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  However, as a local official, I didn't participate

25     in the passing of that decision.  I didn't know who participated in that;

Page 9698

 1     we just received that instruction to be carried out.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, did everyone in Bosnia-Herzegovina know about

 3     those plans or were they to some extent secret?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as soon as the plans were

 5     distributed to several hundreds of people, I suppose that they were no

 6     longer secret.  But on the other hand, I believe that they were internal

 7     party documents.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  So they were not general knowledge, but it was

 9     limited to local and central party leadership?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, those documents were

11     distributed along the party lines, among the party members.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore the question which Mr. Petrovic put to you

13     whether you had any information about what was decided beyond what was of

14     general knowledge, should have been yes instead of no, if only for this

15     example, would you agree with me?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have completely lost me now.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'll put it again to you.  Mr. Petrovic asked

18     you:

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23     that formulated policies for the entire state of Bosnia and Herzegovina?"

24             You said you had no information, but the example shows that you

25     did have information, isn't it?

Page 9699

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, you are not right.  I didn't

 2     have any information.  As for plans A and B, we received those as a

 3     written instruction from the party and that instruction was distributed

 4     among Municipal Boards.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  So what is found in plan A and B, therefore, was

 6     what was decided by the high party level for the whole of Bosnia and

 7     Herzegovina; would you agree with that?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then your answer should have been not a simple no.

10     Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Witness, did you know anything about the reasons behind the

13     passing of the party documents of this kind such as plan A and B?

14        A.   Yes, the explanation was that this was due to an overall

15     situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina and the pre-existing situation in

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina, the SDA was a majority, they centralised their power

17     and that was our response to that centralisation of the entire power

18     which was in the hands of the SDA.

19        Q.   Sir, you are saying that that document was considered at the

20     municipal SDS board meeting, kindly tell us how many people were involved

21     in the municipal SDS board meeting where that was considered?

22        A.   About 50 or so.

23        Q.   Do you know whether that document was submitted only to your

24     Municipal Board or also to some other Municipal Boards in

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 9700

 1        A.   I heard that it had been submitted to some other Municipal Boards

 2     in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 3        Q.   Do you know how many Municipal Boards of the SDS were there

 4     approximately in Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time?

 5        A.   Almost every municipality had a board which means there were 110

 6     Municipal Boards because this is exactly how many municipalities there

 7     were in Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  So you are privy to the contents of the plan and you

 9     told us how you became familiar with the contents thereof and you said

10     that for your municipality you have just told us that, that Variant B of

11     the plan applied to your municipality.  Tell us, please, that

12     Variant B -- I apologise, first of all, could you tell us what you

13     remember from the contents of Variant B, what was to be done, what were

14     you supposed to do in conformity with the B plan submitted to you by the

15     SDS?

16        A.   The documents had some ten bullet points and spoke about the

17     protection and salvation of the Serbian people and all those who

18     supported Yugoslavia who were not in favour of the Yugoslavia breaking

19     up.  It was still a whole state.  It was still not a rump Yugoslavia at

20     the time.

21        Q.   And in that plan, do you remember whether there was a reference

22     to the expulsion of non-Serbs or anything even worse that should be done

23     to those people?

24        A.   No, plan B did not envisage any measures against any ethnic group

25     or any individual or any group or party.  That plan only spoke about the

Page 9701

 1     protection of Serbs and the survival of Serbs in the territories that --

 2     where they resided.

 3        Q.   Tell us, please, at the time when that plan reached you, just

 4     briefly, what was the political situation like in Bosnia-Herzegovina when

 5     that plan was created, when it was submitted to you, what was the

 6     political situation like?

 7        A.   That plan was created as a consequence of the division of powers

 8     and the centralisation of power on the part of the SDA and that was a

 9     situation that existed even before the war, that preceded the war.

10        Q.   Did that plan envisage the establishment of a Crisis Staff in

11     Zvornik?

12        A.   Yes, that plan envisaged that.  We did establish a Crisis Staff,

13     but the SDA also had a Crisis Staff and we shared the same building.  Our

14     offices were next to each other.  We almost shared the offices, as it

15     were.

16        Q.   And your Crisis Staff, therefore, shared the same building as the

17     SDA Crisis Staff?

18        A.   We were next door to each other and the only thing between the

19     two offices was a plaster-of-paris partition.  The building was the

20     so-called Russian building in Zvornik in the -- on the ground floor of

21     that building, the two offices, theirs and ours were on the ground floor

22     of the so-called Russian building in Zvornik.

23        Q.   Did they know that you were sitting there, did you know that they

24     were sitting in their office?

25        A.   Absolutely.

Page 9702

 1        Q.   And you knew all those people, did you not?  You had known them

 2     all your life?

 3        A.   Yes, you are right.

 4        Q.   Can I then assume that they knew what you were up to and

 5     vice-versa, that you knew what they were up to?

 6        A.   Precisely so.  And we even discussed those things openly amongst

 7     each other.

 8        Q.   And your colleagues from the SDA staff probably knew that there

 9     was a plan, that you had a plan that would be put in place if

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina decided to secede from Yugoslavia?

11        A.   Well, we discussed that.

12        Q.   And you also -- you actually told us just now that you discussed

13     things with them very openly, that they were familiar with the details of

14     the things that we are talking about here today?

15        A.   Just before the war Radovan Karadzic held a rally in Zvornik and

16     the president of the Bosniak organisation, Zulfikar Alipasic [phoen] was

17     there and he said that should Muslims decide to leave Bosnia, that we had

18     a plan as to what to do.  There were some Muslims who wanted to stay in

19     Yugoslavia.

20        Q.   Witness, you said if Muslims decided to leave Bosnia, is that

21     what you meant, or --

22        A.   If Muslims decided to break Yugoslavia up and to go their own

23     separate way, away from Yugoslavia.  That's what I meant.

24        Q.   In other words, the essence of that plan, or the gist of the plan

25     was about Yugoslavia, whether Yugoslavia would remain a state or whether

Page 9703

 1     it would be broken up?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Could you please define what the Serbian side wanted, or rather,

 4     what was the policy and desire of you SDS members?

 5        A.   The objective of the SDS, its foundation and its struggle was to

 6     fight for Yugoslavia, for Yugoslavia to stay as it was, because that was

 7     the only way we knew how to live.  It was the only acceptable solution

 8     for us.

 9        Q.   Witness, you also mentioned the SDA Crisis Staff, do you know

10     anything about the arming of the Muslims in the Zvornik municipality at

11     the end of 1991 and in 1992 prior to the outbreak of the conflict?

12        A.   Since we knew that they had established the Patriotic League and

13     that in the village of Godus they took up positions, there's still a

14     memorial plaque there in that village testifying to that.  When they did

15     that, we went to Belgrade taking along the relevant documentation with a

16     request that we too be armed in view of the negative experience we had

17     from World War II.

18        Q.   Witness, can you repeat what the name of the village was, the one

19     you referred to?

20        A.   The village is called Godus and it's in the municipality of

21     Zvornik.

22        Q.   Tell us, you mentioned the ministry in Belgrade, can you tell us

23     specifically what ministry this was, if it was a ministry at all?

24        A.   No.  I misspoke.  It was the Municipal Board for the Serbs living

25     outside Serbia.  There was never a ministry with that title as far as I

Page 9704

 1     know.

 2        Q.   Witness, can you repeat the name of the body?

 3        A.   Board for the care of the Serbs outside Serbia, and I know

 4     that -- and it was a body attached to the Assembly of the Serbs, and I

 5     know that we were in the Assembly building, that's where we were housed.

 6        Q.   Witness, tell us who was the head of the board, if you know?

 7        A.   At the time we left there, it was Radmilo Bogdanovic.  At the

 8     time we went there.

 9        Q.   Can you tell us who went to visit the Assembly board for the

10     Serbs outside Serbia together with you?

11        A.   From what I recall, there was Branko Grujic, Jovo Mijatovic, and

12     I'm not sure if there was anyone else with us.

13        Q.   You said a moment ago that you took along some sort of

14     documentation.  What documentation was it and who did you present it to?

15        A.   It was a video-clip.  When I talked about the contacts we had

16     with the people in the office next door, well, one of those people gave

17     us footage featuring the Patriotic League and people lined up with

18     automatic weapons.  There was around 100 people lined up and they were

19     fully equipped.

20        Q.   You tell us that Bogdanovic was there, do you know what role he

21     played before he took up the position with the Assembly board?

22        A.   Well, I know from the mass media, that he was minister of the

23     interior.

24        Q.   Of which country?

25        A.   Serbia, or rather, he was the Republic of Serbia minister of the

Page 9705

 1     interior.

 2        Q.   When you visited the Assembly board, who did Radmilo Bogdanovic

 3     refer you to?

 4        A.   He referred me to Radoslav Kostic, to Darda.

 5        Q.   What did Radmilo Bogdanovic tell you about weapons?  Were you to

 6     expect any sort of assistance and from whom?

 7        A.   He recommended that I should tell the story to Kostic, that there

 8     was a Trusine place in Croatia, that they had weapons available from the

 9     TO and that we should try and obtain some weapons from that source.

10        Q.   Did Kostic refer you to the JNA which was present at the time?  I

11     am sorry, Bogdanovic, did he refer you to the JNA as a potential sponsor?

12        A.   Since it was common knowledge that Slovenians, Croats and Muslims

13     did not want to responds to call-ups for the JNA, one of the instructions

14     was that we should liaise as far as possible with the JNA, that we should

15     pull our ranks together and obtain weapons from them because there was

16     already a disproportion between the assets that they had and the men at

17     their disposal.

18        Q.   In other words, the JNA was in need of men and you were in need

19     of weapons; is that right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   What view did the SDS take with regard to the JNA?

22        A.   It was amicable and we were told that we should be forthcoming to

23     any and all requests we received from the JNA, because the JNA was

24     working toward keeping Yugoslavia together and this was something that

25     they advocated through the mass media until the very last day.

Page 9706

 1        Q.   The Serbs from the Zvornik municipality, did they respond to the

 2     JNA call-ups in late 1991 and 1992?

 3        A.   Yes, in as many numbers as possible.

 4        Q.   Can you tell us which units were manned by people from the

 5     Zvornik municipality?

 6        A.   For the most part, they were units which withdrew from Slovenia

 7     and in part from Croatia.  I know that there was a large strength unit in

 8     Zvornik which had been pulled out from Jastrebarsko in Croatia, so they

 9     were for the most part units that had been withdrawn from Slovenia and

10     Croatia.

11        Q.   The unit which had been pulled out of Jastrebarsko, was it a tank

12     brigade which was deployed to the municipality of Zvornik?

13        A.   Yes, it was a tank brigade under the command of Colonel Tacic.

14        Q.   Can you tell us, and I am referring to March and April of 1992,

15     where were Tacic's units billeted, if you can recall?

16        A.   I know that most of the tanks were parked in Karakaj at Celopek

17     next to the community centre there.  They had units in Mali Zvornik, they

18     had some units at Caparde, in Sekovici, at Branjevo and Pilica in the

19     direction of Bijeljina.

20        Q.   If I know the geography of the area well, these were strategic

21     locations around Zvornik and parts of the Republic of Serbia that these

22     tank units were deployed.

23        A.   Yes, as well as in other locations that were strategically

24     important.

25        Q.   I heard you say in Serbian -- but I'll ask you again.  Where else

Page 9707

 1     were Tacic's units deployed?

 2        A.   At bridges.  I mentioned Celopek, Pilica, Branjevo, Sekovici.

 3        Q.   Tell us, in the town of Zvornik, were there or are there bridges

 4     between Zvornik and Mali Zvornik?

 5        A.   There is a bridge which separates Zvornik from Serbia and it's no

 6     more than 150 metres, the distance that it spans.

 7        Q.   And how many other locations in Zvornik have bridges, dams and

 8     such-like features?

 9        A.   The municipality of Zvornik has three bridges for road traffic, a

10     railway traffic bridge, and a hydroelectric plant which was also of

11     service to Serbia.

12        Q.   And all these features, were manned by JNA units?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Witness, who is Dusko Vujkovic, if you know?

15        A.   I think there's another typo there, I think I spoke of

16     Dusko Vukotic who is a reserve officer -- no, he is an officer who hails

17     from Zvornik but was in service somewhere in Serbia.  Then at the start

18     of the war he came to Zvornik where he spent his entire time as an

19     officer.

20        Q.   You say that he was an active-duty officer and that he came to

21     Zvornik.  Do you know anything of this individual's role in the arming of

22     the Serbian population in the Zvornik municipality?

23        A.   Yes, this was yet another way of arming people because he had a

24     position with the JNA as an officer, he could obtain weapons and that was

25     the sort of assistance he provided for the war.

Page 9708

 1        Q.   Vaso Eric, who is he?

 2        A.   Vaso Eric was a member of the Municipal Board of the SDS and the

 3     president of the Zvornik court.  I probably mentioned him as part of the

 4     arming effort because he was good friends with Colonel Milosevic who was

 5     commander of the Romanija Corps or the Romanija Brigade, I'm not sure.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  May I just ask one question, Mr. Petrovic.  You

 7     earlier said that that is another typo when Mr. Petrovic asked you about

 8     Dusko Vukovic, where did you find that typo?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was just one letter that was

10     different.  It's not Vukovic but rather Vukotic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  But you said that another typo.  I observed you when

12     you said it, I don't think you were looking to your screen.  Did you want

13     to refer to your statement where it is also said Dusko Vukovic, were you

14     referring to that or were you referring to your screen?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have the statement here.  Vukovic

16     is written here and it's in the context of the arming and I know it's

17     Vukotic, but we have another person Vuckovic, that's different story.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I just, when you said that is another typo, I

19     wondered whether you referred to your statement as we find it on paper,

20     is that what you refer to or did you refer to anything else?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I noticed the typo when I was

22     reviewing it, but I just didn't think it so important.  His name is

23     Vukotic and he lives in Zvornik today.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.  Well, at

25     the same time, I would like you to finish in one or two minutes so that

Page 9709

 1     we can instruct the witness.

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   The last question had to do with Vaso Eric and his role.  You

 4     said that Vaso Eric was the president of the court; is that right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Do you know how many pieces of weaponry were obtained through

 7     him?

 8        A.   I'm not sure, but perhaps most of the weapons came through him

 9     since he had good connections, the man was the commander of the Sarajevo

10     Romanija Brigade and I think that it was through that channel that most

11     of the weapons were obtained.

12        Q.   In other words, he, as the president of the court, was supposed

13     to prosecute people who had unlawful weapons, at any rate, he was

14     supposed to be involved in trying persons in possession unlawfully of

15     weapons?

16        A.   Well, the justice administration broke down completely.  I did

17     not dare to go into a Muslim village as a Serb, as my colleagues.

18        Q.   So the judiciary was practically non-operational in March, April,

19     May, of 1992?

20        A.   Well, even before that.  As of November or December 1991, no

21     authority was operational.  It was the law of the highwayman and those

22     who were strong could wield power.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, I will

24     stop here and resume my examination tomorrow.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

Page 9710

 1             Witness JF-026, we'll soon adjourn for the day.  Some material

 2     has been prepared, that is material from the -- your testimony in the

 3     first case.  Would you please be so kind to review that material this

 4     evening and tomorrow morning so as to tell us or give answers to

 5     questions similar to the one that is were put to you today, that is to

 6     review it and to point at specific places where you would say that the

 7     content of your testimony is not correct.  I do understand that you have

 8     already worked on the -- your testimony in the second case; is that

 9     correct?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, it would be appreciated if you write down

12     the pages on which you find any inaccuracies and then to explain to us

13     tomorrow where they are and what they are.  This might take some time.

14     Are you willing to do that?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have it in writing, Judge.

16     I only have the audio recording.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you'll get it.  It has been prepared and

18     you'll be provided with it.  Madam Registrar will take care of that.

19             Mr. Groome.

20             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I might suggest an instruction, the

21     the version that he has -- that he'll have in his own language does not

22     have the same pagination as our English.  I was going to suggest that he

23     be instructed to draw a line under any sentence which he believes to be

24     either untrue or inaccurate and then in the margin to write what would be

25     the correct statement that he wishes to make and perhaps that might be an

Page 9711

 1     orderly way for us to be able to go through it and to keep track of where

 2     we are in the English.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please do that, underline the phrases

 4     which you consider to be not correct.  Not to say that you could say more

 5     about these matters, but just where you think that the testimony is not

 6     correct.  I further would like to instruct you that you should not speak

 7     with anyone or communicate in any other way whether that communication is

 8     about your testimony already given today or still to be given in the days

 9     to come.

10             And I finally would like to instruct you not to seek eye contact

11     in this court with any of the accused in order to have unspoken

12     communication between you and the accused.  Would you please keep that in

13     mind for the days to come as well.

14             We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow, Thursday, the

15     2nd of December, quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon.

16                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.

17                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 2nd day of

18                           December, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.