Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9712

 1                           Thursday, 2 December, 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon,

 8     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is the case number

 9     IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             First, I have to admit that I'd forgotten to turn into open

12     session yesterday before adjourning.  That's the reason why we're now in

13     open session, although we'll turn into closed session relatively soon.

14             When we are waiting for the witness to be brought in, I have one

15     or two short matters, but the Usher can already try to find him.

16             What would the parties like to do with the handwritten letter

17     we've seen yesterday?  I can imagine that you -- it's available to you

18     and that there's no need to further do anything with it.  But before

19     deciding on the matter -- that's the letter to VWS.

20             Mr. Groome.

21             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the Prosecution would ask that it be

22     exhibited.  And I believe the Chamber said yesterday that the Prosecution

23     and Defence would be provided with copies of the reply to this.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  If that has not been done yet, then I think I would

25     consult the VWS to see whether we just inform you about the content,

Page 9713

 1     which to some extent we've done already, or whether there's any reason

 2     why VWS considers any confidentiality in there.

 3             The Defence, do you think that the letter written to VWS should

 4     be an exhibit?

 5             MR. JORDASH:  May I have the opportunity to go through it in

 6     detail, please?  I didn't look at it overnight.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             Mr. Petrovic.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we simply don't have

10     a position.  I don't see the point, but if any of the parties, including

11     the Chamber, believe it might be helpful, let it be admitted.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Are we in closed session?  No, we're not yet in

13     closed session.  We turn into closed session.

14     [Closed session]   [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in closed session, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We are in closed session.  The witness may be --

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

20             MR. JORDASH:  There was a matter, but it can wait, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             Witness JF-026, first of all, I'd like to remind you that you're

23     still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of

24     your testimony, that you would speak the truth, the whole truth, and

25     nothing but the truth.  Is that clear?

Page 9714

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2                           WITNESS:  JF-026 [Resumed]

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I would like to invite you to tell us whether

 5     there are any matters you found in the transcript of the first case

 6     and/or the transcript of the second case which you consider to be not in

 7     accordance with the truth, and to inform us about it.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yesterday, to the extent I was able

 9     to, I looked through the material from Case 1, and I have one observation

10     to make which concerns page 180.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Page 180.  Let's just -- yes, page 180 would

12     translate into our page numbering how, Mr. Groome, if you would --

13             MR. GROOME:  We cannot translate.  That's the problem, the way

14     it's been published.  That's why if the witness could read and orient us

15     that way, I think we may be able to find it.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             If you could read one or two lines of the portion you want to

18     draw our attention to, then we'll be able to find it.  Witness, could you

19     read a portion of it?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the penultimate paragraph on

21     the page, where a time-frame has to be set.  I am answering that it was

22     because of the MUP of Serbia, because the Prosecutor asked me if this

23     was -- if it was the person from the MUP of Serbia, and the year

24     concerned was 1993, when the individual was not a member of the MUP of

25     Serbia.

Page 9715

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you would literally read one line, then

 2     we'll try to find it in the English.  And so if you would read one line,

 3     and then -- well, let's say the first line of your answer, we'll then try

 4     to find it, and then you'll have an opportunity to further explain.

 5     Could you read that one line?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It reads:

 7             "Prosecutor Groome.

 8             "Q.  But the person you handed over your request to is a member

 9     of the MUP of Serbia?"

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20             "We didn't even know.  We simply asked for assistance then, and

21     my friend at the time, an employee of the MUP of Serbia ..."

22             I think maybe this is the entry.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  In the first case, I'm in the range of 21 --

24             MR. JORDASH:  This is the 5th of June.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  5th of June of the year ...?

Page 9716

 1             MR. JORDASH:  2003.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes, one second, one second.

 3             Okay, I'll now read it in context and see whether we are at the

 4     same page.

 5             Witness, I'll read the question, and perhaps you follow it:

 6             "So Arkan's appearance in Zvornik was after you made a request to

 7     the MUP of Serbia for assistance in Zvornik?"

 8             Then your answer was:

 9             "No, we were not in the MUP.  We were at the Assembly Committee."

10             Then the question was:

11             "But the person you conveyed your request to was a member of the

12     MUP of Serbia?"

13             And then you said:

14             "Yes, it is through him that I received information that after

15     Bijeljina, Arkan would come to Zvornik."

16             Is that the portion you're referring to?  What would you like to

17     change or to add?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, since this is about 1992,

19     this individual was not a member of the MUP at the time.  I said that I

20     did not specify the time-frame.  He was not a member of the MUP of Serbia

21     at that time.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, let's see.  You say he was not a member of the

23     MUP at that time.  Did he become a member of the MUP after 1992?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Based on the fact that I knew that

25     he had been a member of the MUP, whether it was 1993 or 1994, I said that

Page 9717

 1     the individual was a member of the MUP.  But I don't know the exact time.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps you could tell us who it was.  Then we have

 3     an opportunity to verify.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's Kostic.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That's Rado Kostic?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, that's now on the record.

 8             Are there any other portions which you consider not to be --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The rest that I reviewed, I think,

10     reflects my evidence.  But bear in mind that wherever I say that I

11     directly participated in the events, that was the case, whereas in other

12     portions where I do not make such a reference, I am probably inferring or

13     conveying information I received from others.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that is no direct knowledge, but knowledge

15     deriving from other sources.

16             Now, is there any point where you have not personally observed

17     what you describe?  Is there any piece of information which you now say

18     is incorrect?  So it's clear that if you say, I observed this personally,

19     then that's your own observation.  It's also clear that if you do not say

20     so, that you have obtained your information from other sources and cannot

21     guarantee that it's correct.  But is there anything you obtained from

22     those other sources which you now say is certainly not correct or where

23     you have serious doubts at this moment, despite you believed it was true

24     when you told -- when you testified, that you now say, No, I know now, on

25     the basis of additional information, that it is not true?  Is there any

Page 9718

 1     such instance?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not that I observed it.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I leave this for the time being.

 4             As far as other testimonies are concerned, I think the

 5     Prosecution did not tender the other material.  You asked for it,

 6     Mr. Jordash, so we'll see what happens with that material, how you're

 7     going to use it, if you're going to use it at all.

 8             Mr. Petrovic, are you ready to continue?  And could I also

 9     inquire as far as timing is concerned.

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that I will

11     need an hour and a half, so a bit more than a full session.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, could you already give --

13             MR. JORDASH:  I think I could finish by the end of the day.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll see whether that's possible or not.  If

15     not -- if that would not be possible, the Chamber has already explored

16     possibilities that if we couldn't finish today, that at least we could

17     finish before the weekend.  Of course, it would be appreciated if we do

18     not need extra sessions, but just for you to know.

19             Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic: [Continued]

22        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.  I have several questions for you.

23     Tell me, the individual by the name of Milan Sojic, what role, if any, he

24     had in the arming of the Serbian population of Zvornik in 1991 and 1992.

25        A.   Milan Sojic hails from Zvornik.  He held a high position in the

Page 9719

 1     National Bank of Serbia.  It was through this capacity that he came to

 2     know certain JNA officers and was able to use certain channels to provide

 3     as much assistance as possible.

 4        Q.   Is it true that together with General Svetozar Andric, he

 5     procured weapons, that he was the contact?

 6        A.   Yes.  At the time, General Svetozar Andric was captain first

 7     class and the chief of the military police for the town of Belgrade.

 8        Q.   Tell us -- generally speaking, can you tell us what the overall

 9     quantity of weapons that reached Zvornik originated from JNA sources, if

10     you can?

11        A.   Well, roughly 90 per cent from the JNA and 10 per cent from

12     Baranja.

13        Q.   The 90 per cent you mention, it was distributed either directly

14     from the JNA or through the SDS?

15        A.   Well, for the most part from the JNA, and in part through the

16     SDS.  As I said, we manned their ranks, and as part of the instructions

17     we were respond to the JNA call-ups as far as possible in order to fill

18     up their reserve force.

19        Q.   Witness, look at D49, please.  It will appear on your screen

20     shortly.

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] And I'd like the witness to be

22     shown page 3 in B/C/S and 4 in English.

23        Q.   Witness, these are conclusions and assessments of the situation

24     in Bosnia-Herzegovina which the Command of the 2nd District sent to the

25     General Staff in March 1992.  The document was compiled by and sent to

Page 9720

 1     the General Staff by Lieutenant General Milutin Kukanjac.

 2             I'd like you to look at item F, which is on page 289 of the

 3     photocopy.  So under F, it reads, and it relates to the overall territory

 4     of Bosnia, that:

 5             "The JNA has distributed around 52.000, and the SDS around

 6     17.000."

 7             What I'd like to know is whether this ratio that we see here can

 8     be roughly applied to the territory of Zvornik, which you have personal

 9     knowledge of?

10        A.   Yes, certainly, although I think that the ratio would be even

11     higher in the direction of the JNA.

12        Q.   When you say "even higher," you mean that the higher amount of

13     weaponry distributed by the JNA would apply to the territory of Zvornik?

14        A.   Yes, I'd stick by the 90 to 10 ratio, 90 per cent to 10 per cent.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 2D328, which 65

16     ter document, 2D328.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, would you be able to lay a foundation

18     for this apparent judgement or assessment of the percentage, unless

19     that's what you wanted to do with the next document.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps there's a

21     problem in interpretation.  The witness said 90 per cent of the weapons

22     came from the JNA.  Then I showed him a document which related to the

23     whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and he told me that --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  There's no doubt about that.  What I'd like to know

25     is:  What is the specific knowledge the witness has to say, overall, it

Page 9721

 1     may have been 75-25, but in Zvornik it was 90-10.  And then to say, You

 2     were there, so you would know, is not a very strong basis for such a

 3     numerical assessment.

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was under the

 5     impression that I achieved as much through my line of questioning

 6     yesterday and today which related to the arming effort through the JNA.

 7     He referred to five or six sources which supplied the Zvornik area with

 8     weapons from the JNA.

 9             Let me ask him this:

10        Q.   Witness, based on your knowledge of the sources and quantities

11     that we mentioned today and yesterday, can you ascertain that it was from

12     the JNA that 90 per cent of the weapons arrived in Zvornik?

13        A.   Well, that was on the basis of the assessments we made in the

14     Crisis Staff to see to what extent certain areas were armed and to what

15     extent certain areas were at risk, and that's how we made subsequent

16     decisions.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you keep a record of the numbers, and how and

18     where they were distributed, and what their origin was?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did keep records, as much as we

20     could.  I know the first time when the investigators put questions to me,

21     they brought me at least 200 copies, and they showed me documents where I

22     had personally signed for those distributions.

23             We thought that there would not be a war, and we thought that

24     there would be certain inspections that would ask, What happened with

25     those weapons?  As soon as the weapons were there, talks started about

Page 9722

 1     abuse, about smuggling, about illicit sales, and so on, and that's why we

 2     kept these records.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The records would give an opportunity to

 4     verify the accuracy of the answers of the witness, so the parties are

 5     invited to consider that matter in a bit more detail.

 6             Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   Witness, would you please look at the document that is on the

 9     screen in front of you, I believe.  Please have a look at it.  It's very

10     brief.  And then I'm going to put some questions to you.

11             Have you had a look?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Are you, perhaps, familiar with this document?

14        A.   I haven't seen it before.

15        Q.   Is it correct that all the weapons that work organisations had

16     were taken over by the JNA and the TO at one point in time in the

17     beginning of the 1990s?

18        A.   Yes.  It is a well-known fact that the previous defence system

19     was such that all work organisations had certain quantities of weaponry

20     for TO purposes, and that was one of the sources of the conflict.  We

21     wanted them to be handed over to the JNA, and the Muslims wanted them to

22     be handed over to the local TO, because in most municipalities they were

23     in power.

24        Q.   Weapons were handed over to the TO.  Do you know what happened

25     afterwards to the weapons that were under JNA control in the coming

Page 9723

 1     period?

 2        A.   Well, the JNA mobilised the reserve force, and quite a bit of

 3     this weaponry was distributed to those who had supported the JNA and

 4     united Yugoslavia, and for the most part those were the Serbs in Bosnia.

 5             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could this document

 6     please be admitted into evidence as a Defence exhibit?

 7             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the Prosecution does not object.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 2D238 becomes Exhibit D152,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  D152 is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed.

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13             Could we have 65 ter 00439, please.

14        Q.   It's a brief document.  Could you please have a look, and then

15     I'm going to put some questions to you.

16        A.   Could you zoom in a bit?  I cannot see it properly.

17        Q.   So the Public Security Station of the Serbian municipality of

18     Skelani is requesting from the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic

19     of the Serb People in BiH -- this is a request for some equipment,

20     actually.

21             Tell me, since you headed the police station in Zvornik for a

22     while, what about your Public Security Station; was this the route that

23     you followed when you needed materiel and equipment or did you take a

24     different course?

25        A.   Well, from the moment when Republika Srpska was established and

Page 9724

 1     from the moment when the JNA withdrew from the territory of

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina, this was the way in which supplies were provided to

 3     the police.  Up until then, we tried to make do in different ways.

 4        Q.   Over here, they are asking that this request be forwarded to the

 5     federal SUP, so they are asking their ministry that the ministry ask the

 6     federal SUP for all of this.  Was this the route that was taken, to the

 7     best of your knowledge, in the territory of your municipality as well?

 8        A.   Yes.  While the federal SUP was still in existence, that was

 9     standing practice.

10        Q.   An inspector in the federal SUP, Zivorad Petrovic, is referred to

11     here.  Do you perhaps know the man?

12        A.   No.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document

14     please be admitted into evidence as a Defence exhibit, although it is

15     from the Prosecution 65 ter list.

16             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I've been able to verify the provenance

17     and have no objection.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 3439 becomes Exhibit D153, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  D153 is admitted into evidence.

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22        Q.   Yesterday, you said to us, Witness, that Zuca and Marko Pavlovic

23     were arrested at the same time.  To the best of your knowledge, was the

24     reason for the arrest of these two persons the same --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the end of the

Page 9725

 1     question.  The microphone was off.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, could you repeat the last part of your

 3     question, since your microphone was switched off for the very end.

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.

 5             So the question is whether this witness knows whether these two

 6     persons were arrested at the same time and for the same reason, or does

 7     he not have any knowledge about this.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know they were arrested at the

 9     same time, but I don't know whether they were arrested for the same

10     reason.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             Could we now please have a look at -- 2846 is the Prosecution's

13     65 ter number.  Could we please have a look at the first page of that

14     document only.

15             It's a very brief document.  Please have a look at it.  I'm sure

16     that you've seen it before.

17        Q.   My question is whether the volunteer units, including Zuca's unit

18     in the territory of the municipality of Zvornik at the time, were

19     financed by the provisional municipal authorities in Zvornik.

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the first page

22     of this document please be admitted?  This document consists of several

23     pages, but I think that only page 1 is relevant.  It's another

24     Prosecution document from their 65 ter list.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

Page 9726

 1             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I would object to the compound nature

 2     of the last question.  The document refers to Zuca, and then the question

 3     was whether volunteer units, including Zuca.  I would ask that both be

 4     explored with greater precision.

 5             With respect to the admission of this actual document, the

 6     Prosecution has verified its provenance and does not object to its

 7     admission now.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think you can ask the question in

 9     re-examination, if you wish to do so.  I asked for any objections.  No

10     objections.

11             Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

12             THE REGISTRAR:  The first page of document 2846 becomes

13     Exhibit D154, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  D154 is admitted into evidence.

15             Is there any need that this first page to be up-loaded separately

16     from -- Mr. Petrovic, could you take care of that?

17             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MR. GROOME:  The Prosecution believes that the Chamber should

20     have the entire document before it is -- I'm sorry, but I wasn't clear

21     about that before.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Any problem with the entire document, including the

23     cover page, Mr. Petrovic?

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then --

Page 9727

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, but I don't want

 2     to encumber you with facts that are of no great relevance for these

 3     proceedings.  But if this is the Prosecutor's wish, I don't have a

 4     problem with that.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the whole of the document is admitted.  That's

 6     a 21-page document up-loaded in e-court.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

 8             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Witness, the provisional municipal authorities financed Zuca's

10     unit; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   We also have the Pivarski unit, then Gogic's unit.  Were they

13     also financed by the provisional municipal authorities?

14        A.   All the volunteer units were financed by them.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             Can we now have a look at 2D332.  This is a Defence document from

17     the Defence 65 ter list.

18        Q.   Please have a look at this document very briefly.

19             First of all, tell us, please, whether you know of the

20     Igor Markovic Unit.  What is that?

21        A.   That is a unit that was Zuca's unit until he got killed.

22        Q.   Tell us, please, it's not very clear, who got killed, Zuca or

23     Igor Markovic?  Just tell us that.

24        A.   Igor Markovic was killed, and then Zuca's unit was named after

25     Igor Markovic.

Page 9728

 1        Q.   Do you know who Lieutenant-Colonel Vidoje Blagojevic is?

 2        A.   Yes, that is a man who was commander of the Zvornik Brigade for a

 3     certain period of time.

 4        Q.   Tell us, please, does this correspond to your knowledge as well,

 5     the content of this document, that is, that the army is providing fuel to

 6     Zuca's unit for their vehicles, the unit that was then called

 7     "Igor Markovic"?

 8        A.   All of these volunteer units were placed under the command of the

 9     JNA and later under the command of the Army of Republika Srpska.

10        Q.   And then the JNA -- or, rather, the Army of Republika Srpska

11     supplied them with materiel and other resources, including fuel, as we

12     can see on the basis of this document as well?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document

15     please be admitted into evidence as a Defence exhibit?

16             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'm unable to verify the provenance of

17     the document.  I would ask it be marked for identification, and then

18     we'll seek to speak with Mr. Petrovic during the break.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, this document should be assigned an

20     MFI number, which will be ...?

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 2D332 becomes Exhibit D155, marked for

22     identification, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Witness, if I understood your testimony correctly, your first

Page 9729

 1     contact and first request for assistance was addressed to

 2     Radmilo Bogdanovic and the Parliamentary Committee for Serbs Outside

 3     Serbia; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And Radmilo Bogdanovic was the person who told you to communicate

 6     with Radoslav Kostic; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And what did you infer on that basis?  What was the relationship

 9     between Bogdanovic and Kostic?

10        A.   Well, in view of the position that Bogdanovic had in the Assembly

11     as an MP and as the head of the Committee for the Position of Serbs

12     Outside Serbia, it was my understanding that they knew each other well

13     and that they were on good terms.

14        Q.   In 1992 --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue:  The document which was MFI'd,

16     that is, about the fuel, the translation is not only the page we find in

17     the original, but the translation also deals with handwritten text on the

18     back of the document.  Now, that appears not, as far as I can see, in the

19     original which is up-loaded, which is a one-page document.  So,

20     therefore, I'm wondering, where the translation covers more than the

21     original, what you intend to do.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Microphone, Mr. Petrovic.

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my intention is to

Page 9730

 1     establish whether we can find the back of the original and then up-load

 2     all of that into e-court, and then we tender it.  This is the only

 3     document that I found, but there must be this other page as well.  I do

 4     apologise to everyone in the courtroom because of that.  This was an

 5     oversight on my part.  But I have no problem with the content.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   Witness, in 1991 and 1992, you knew that Radoslav Kostic was

 9     commander of the police station in Darda and Baranja.

10        A.   I saw him several times there in Darda.  I even went to his home.

11        Q.   Is it correct that only in 1994 or 1995, you found out that

12     Radoslav Kostic also worked in the MUP of the Republic of Serbia.

13        A.   I learned that sometime towards the end of the war.  I don't know

14     whether it was 1994 or 1995.  I'm not sure.

15        Q.   Tell us, this weaponry from Baranja, do you know who it belonged

16     to, whose weapons these were?

17        A.   These were weapons of the JNA that they had left from the days of

18     Yugoslavia; that is, the Territorial Defence of Baranja.

19        Q.   And during this period of time that you are talking about, these

20     weapons belonged to the Army of the Republic of the Serb Krajina; right.

21        A.   That's right.

22        Q.   Do you know what sort of role was played by Marko Pavlovic in the

23     territory of Baranja at a time when combat operations took place there.

24        A.   As far as I remember, he was the TO commander for the town of

25     Darda or the town of Beli Manastir, I'm not sure, although I think it was

Page 9731

 1     Darda.

 2        Q.   In your statement, you say that around 300 pieces of weaponry had

 3     arrived from Baranja.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Can you tell us what sort of weapons these were?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Where, Mr. Petrovic.

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I will tell you now, Your Honour.

 8   (redacted)

 9     I have marked as page 41, though I don't think that's the right

10     pagination.  I will find it as soon as I can.  I don't think it will help

11     you if I tell you that it's page 41.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, the Chamber was never provided with

13     the testimony in the second case.  So since we always very much

14     appreciate to follow closely your questions, is there any way that you'd

15     provide us with the relevant pages.

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I can be of assistance now and ask

17     that 65 ter 5865 - that's the Prosecution's 65 ter document - be called,

18     paragraph 40, the last two sentences of paragraph 40.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Are we talking about the testimony in the second

20     case or are we talking about the witness's statement.

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we are referring to

22     the witness's statement.  As for his evidence in the other case, I will

23     have a look at that over the break.  But he also refers to it in his

24     statement.  That's why I referred you to it.  I will do my best to find

25     it in the transcript as well.

Page 9732

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, Mr. Petrovic, so that we are able to

 2     follow.

 3             Yes, a reference is made to 200 to 300 guns and ammunition.  I

 4     found it.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Witness, it had to do with old M-48 rifles that were sent to you

 8     from Baranja; is that right?

 9        A.   Well, yes, these were mostly dysfunctional weapons that we had to

10     repair.  They were outdated.

11        Q.   Can we be of assistance to the Trial Chamber?  What sort of a

12     rifle is an M-48, if you know?

13        A.   Well, the simplest form, and it's a make that's over 60 years

14     old.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Mention is made in your statements of the lorry that

16     was picked up from the parking-lot next to the Belgrade fair.  When you

17     went to pick up the truck, did you find anyone there?

18        A.     No, we didn't.  We had agreed with Kostic that we should leave

19     a lorry full of fuel and some flour, and that there would be individuals

20     coming to pick it up in the afternoon.  It is a great distance, after

21     all, 300 kilometres from Belgrade.

22        Q.   As far as you know, they drove the lorry to Baranja, or were the

23     weapons obtained from a different source, or you don't know.

24        A.   Well, I didn't know at the time.  I know from the subsequent

25     stories from individuals who loaded weapons.  I have -- some of my

Page 9733

 1     employees, current employees, are from Baranja.  So they went to Belgrade

 2     and then -- took the lorry there, and then went for the load to Baranja,

 3     to Darda.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Let us now go back to the early days of the conflict

 5     in your town.

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8        A.   Yes.  Because of the tense situation - the Muslims had taken over

 9     the entire Zvornik, including the police station - we left the station

10     and went in the direction of Karakaj.  This was one of the instructions

11     which had to do with the Cutileiro Plan that had been signed by Karadzic,

12     Izetbegovic, and I think it was Mate Boban on behalf of the Croats,

13     whereby the police force in the BH was supposed to be divided.  Then we

14     received a dispatch from the assistant minister of the interior,

15     Momcilo Mandic, who was the highest-ranking Serbian in the Ministry of

16     the Interior of the Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17        Q.   When they took over the police station, did the Muslim members of

18     the police force distribute any weapons, and to whom, if they did.

19        A.   Well, yes.  We went to see them on a couple of occasions later

20     on, because we wanted to negotiate, and then we realised that they had

21     distributed all of the weapons that belonged to the reserve force, I

22     think it was around 400 pieces of weaponry.  They had even recruited

23     criminals who had been serving long-term sentences.  They dressed them in

24     uniforms and formed a reserve force out of them overnight.

25        Q.   When the Muslims took over the police station, what became of the

Page 9734

 1     Serbian population in the town of Zvornik?

 2        A.   By the time the Serbs had left Zvornik, they were either in the

 3     surrounding Serbian villages or in Serbia.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  I'd like to ask you about the role of the

 5     JNA at the time.

 6             Yesterday, you told us that there was a number of

 7     strategically-important locations of the JNA in the municipality of

 8     Zvornik; is that right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   As the JNA grew out into the Army of Yugoslavia, did the

11     locations carry the same significance as before, in your opinion.

12        A.   The JNA was present there until the time when the VRS was formed,

13     at which point the VRS took over their role.  I think it was on the 28th

14     of May or June.  I'm not sure.

15        Q.   I was asking you specifically about the locations we referred to,

16     the hydroelectric plant in Zvornik, the bridges there.  Were these

17     locations protected by, initially, the JNA, and then later on by the VRS,

18     because of their strategic importance?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Is it true that when the JNA withdrew, some of the units of the

21     VJ took part in the actions in the municipality of Zvornik, such as, for

22     instance, the unit from Valjevo, under the command of Solaja, and some

23     other units.

24        A.     I only know of this one instance which involved the unit from

25     Valjevo.  I know about this because we, as the Executive Board, which I

Page 9735

 1     was a functionary of at the time, paid them a reimbursement for -- or

 2     some sort of a salary for one month.  When that was, exactly, I don't

 3     remember.

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown

 5     Prosecution 65 ter 4012.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I -- perhaps, when waiting for this, could you

 7     give us the name of one of the criminals which you say were dressed in

 8     uniforms?  Could you give us one example of such a criminal.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Behluli.  I don't know his last

10     name.  He was one of the well-known criminals.  Then Musadik Halilovic.

11     I don't remember, given the time that has elapsed.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  What's the basis for your information that they are

13     criminals?  Are you aware of any convictions or --

14   (redacted)

15     station, and I know for a fact that they had been convicted for serious

16     crimes, such as murder.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

18             One other question.  You were talking about the take-over of the

19     police station, but you also referred to the take-over of the whole of

20     Zvornik.  Could you tell us exactly what you meant by that?  Was that a

21     take-over of Zvornik by force, or what exactly did you mean when you said

22     that Zvornik was taken over, including the police station.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because of the political divisions

24     that existed at the time, as soon as the Muslims took over the police

25     station, the Serbs did not feel secure there and simply left Zvornik.

Page 9736

 1     Thus, it was solely Muslims who stayed behind in Zvornik.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So what you're referring to is that when the

 3     police station was taken over, that the Serbs then left, so that there

 4     was no specific combat or armed conflict, it's the result of taking over

 5     the police station that the Serbs left, and that's what you refer to as

 6     the take-over of Zvornik?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  We withdrew to the

 8     neighbouring place called Karakaj, which had a Serb majority.  We set up

 9     a police station there, and the Serbian population followed suit.  They

10     also left Zvornik.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And, therefore, entire Zvornik means the town

12     of Zvornik; is that not the whole of the --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the town, not the

14     municipality.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

16             Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   Witness, please have a look at the document.  It's a document

19     issued by the Command of the 1st Military District, whereby the OG Drina

20     is ordered to secure all the facilities on the two banks of the

21     Drina River all the way to the River Sava, excluding Bijeljina, Modranj

22     village, Vitnica village, et cetera.  Tell us, do the contents of this

23     order reflect what you, yourself, were able to see; i.e., that the JNA or

24     the VJ secured the strategic locations along the length of the

25     Drina River?

Page 9737

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can the document be

 3     exhibited as -- be admitted as a Defence exhibit?  It is a Prosecution

 4     65 ter document.

 5             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I have no objection.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 4012 becomes Exhibit D156, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  D156 is admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Witness, I'd now like to ask you about Marko Pavlovic, i.e.,

11     Branko Popovic.

12             Tell us, first, on what sort of terms was Pavlovic with members

13     of the JNA, primarily officers, if you know?

14        A.   What I concluded, based on my acquaintance with him, was that he

15     was on excellent terms, friendly terms, with some of the most senior

16     officers, including generals.

17        Q.   Can you tell us -- can you give us an illustration?

18        A.   Well, I know that he was on excellent terms with

19     General Jankovic, who was the commander of the Tuzla Corps, and with some

20     other generals who were on the General Staff, whose names I can't recall

21     at present.  I know that I was present on a couple of occasions when he

22     was engaged in telephone conversations with them.

23        Q.   Do you know anything about his relationship with Colonel -- do

24     you know about his relationship between Pavlovic and General Dubajic?

25        A.   Well, yes, I know that they did have an excellent relationship

Page 9738

 1     and they would socialise with him.

 2        Q.   So he had excellent -- an excellent relationship with

 3     General Jankovic, who was the commander of the Tuzla Corps, and with

 4     Dubajic, who was his chief of security?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   At some point in one of your statements, I also read that

 7     Pavlovic was on excellent terms with the chief of the General Staff,

 8     Panic; is that right?

 9        A.   Yes, that's right.  At least that's how he represented things.

10     He would boast about it.  And I did see them together on one occasion.

11        Q.   Do you know if Pavlovic turned to these senior officers for

12     assistance, either in materiel or in combat assistance?

13        A.   Yes.  This was the case before the conflicts broke out, when he

14     requested to be given a materiel assistance, and when the fighting broke

15     out, when he would ask for assistance in combat.

16        Q.   Did Pavlovic at any point in time contact any of these officers

17     in your presence?

18        A.   Well, I do seem to recall that we were in the Crisis Staff at

19     some point when he placed a telephone call.  It had to do with materiel

20     and equipment which subsequently arrived.

21        Q.   Did Marko Pavlovic ever call anyone from the MUP of the Republic

22     of Serbia or any other service of the MUP of Serbia?

23        A.   Well, I don't know that sort of knowledge.  He stayed in Zvornik

24     for a while.  We socialised privately.  We knew the man who was from

25     across the street, the commander of the station and a person from

Page 9739

 1     Loznica.

 2        Q.   Did he call anyone from the DB of Serbia in your presence?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Please have a look at 2D329.  It is a certificate of gratitude

 5     issued to Branislav Pavlovic for exceptional commitment, dedication and

 6     co-operation in offering assistance to soldiers, TO members and the

 7     Serbian people exposed to Ustasha terror and genocide, for the Military

 8     Post 5055, Colonel Radoslav Blazic.  The date is the 25th of March, 1992.

 9             Is this certificate consistent with what you knew of the

10     relationship Pavlovic had with the JNA at the time?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at P1063, page 5.  I'm

13     sorry, page 6, please.  Page 6, section VII, Roman numeral VII.

14             Further, a bit further, please.  One page ahead in B/C/S, please.

15     In e-court, it is page 8.  Sorry, page 9.

16             I would just like to establish a parallel with the previous

17     document.  I'm sorry that this has taken a while.

18             So number 26 says:

19             "The command of the defence of the city of Belgrade is Military

20     Post Code 5055."

21        Q.   Do you see that, Witness?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just wanted to

24     show you -- or, rather, I wanted us to identify the military post code.

25     Excuse me.

Page 9740

 1             It seems that there is no English translation of this document.

 2     The document has not been translated in full, apparently.  It is a

 3     Prosecution document, and, therefore, I am so surprised that that is the

 4     case.  However, I wanted to indicate what can be seen here in the Serbian

 5     version.  It's a Prosecution document, a Theunens document.  We are going

 6     to up-load the entire translation that we are going to ask for.

 7        Q.   Witness, could you please read point 26 for us?  And we are going

 8     to present it in an appropriate manner to the Trial Chamber.

 9        A.   "The command of the defence of the city of Belgrade, 5055,

10     Belgrade."

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document

12     2D329 which I showed a few moments ago, that certificate of gratitude,

13     could it please be admitted as a Defence exhibit?  As for this document,

14     we are going to supply the missing translation.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we first have a look at the previous document

16     you referred to.  Could we have it on the screen again; that is, the

17     certificate of gratitude.

18             Yes.  If I look at the transcript, Mr. Petrovic, you said:

19             "I'd like to ask you about Marko Pavlovic, i.e., Branko Popovic."

20             Now, this document is about Branislav Pavlovic, which does not

21     fit with either of the two names you gave us.

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that the

23     only explanation I can offer is the following:  He used the names

24     Pavlovic, Popovic, Branko, Marko, alternately, so it must be a

25     combination of those two names.  However, we can investigate that.

Page 9741

 1             So could it please be marked for identification before we've

 2     looked into the matter and before we're in a position to give you an

 3     explanation?  Then it's more appropriate.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

 5             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I could be of assistance.

 6             The same thing occurred to me, I'd never seen the combination of

 7     the first and the second name.  But when we checked the provenance of it,

 8     we find that it was given to the Office of the Prosecutor by

 9     Branko Popovic in an interview with an investigator of the OTP on the

10     12th of March, 2003.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  It was given by Branko -- by whom exactly did you

12     say?

13             MR. GROOME:  Well, the person -- the two names that I have heard

14     this person use is "Marko Pavlovic" and "Branko Popovic."  Just one

15     second, Your Honour.

16             The name that he represented as his name to the investigator who

17     interviewed him was "Branislav Pavlovic."

18             JUDGE ORIE:  So "Branko," is that short for Branislav," or is

19     it --

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  It is not

21     exactly the usual thing, but yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So we now have three first names and two

23     family names, and we find a combination of all of it, and handwritten

24     portions not being translated.

25             No objections, Mr. Groome?

Page 9742

 1             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, this --

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 2D329 becomes Exhibit D157,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D157 is admitted into evidence.

 6             I add to this that there was no objection from the Prosecution.

 7     Nevertheless, in evaluating the document, of course, we cannot just

 8     ignore that there is still a bit of unexplained background of this

 9     document and that not all of the handwritten text - I've got no idea what

10     it is - is translated.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13             I believe that this would be the right time for the break, so I

14     suggest that we do take the planned break now.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             At the same time, I'd like to take you back to P1063, which was

17     admitted into evidence, but apparently without a full translation.  I

18     blame myself for not having noticed that at the time, but sometime I

19     expect the parties to do that first.  I suggest that it will be re-MFI'd

20     until we have a full translation, even if that would not be a copy of all

21     the names, because I saw there were long lists, but that at least that

22     it's clear what these lists are and that it's not just one page

23     translated and other pages not.  That seems not to be an appropriate way

24     of dealing with these kind of documents.  Again, the Chamber is not

25     insisting at this moment on every single name and long lists to be

Page 9743

 1     re-typed by interpreters, but at least it should be a clear coverage, in

 2     the English language, of the whole of the document.

 3             P1063 is, therefore -- the status of the document is changed and

 4     marked for identification.

 5             Mr. Groome, when will we hear from you on P1063?

 6             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, after the break, if that's possible.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I don't know whether you have a translation

 8     already by then, but, yes, we would like to.

 9             Then we'll take a break, and we'll resume at 10 minutes past

10     4.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber was informed that P1063 needs further

14     attention before it can be admitted again.

15             Mr. Petrovic, are you ready to continue?

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

17             I would just like to point something out in relation to P1063;

18     that it was a document that was used when witness -- expert witness

19     Theunens testified, and the Prosecution pointed out that they had

20     translated only those portions which are of relevance to them.  So that

21     is the core of the matter.  We are going to resolve it, so I want to make

22     it clear at this point as well.  Thank you, Your Honour.

23             I'm going to continue now.

24             Could we please have P1394 on our screens.

25        Q.   Witness, would you please look at this document - it's very

Page 9744

 1     brief - and tell me whether you know who Slobodan Vasilic is?

 2        A.   Yes, Commander Vasilic was commander of the Zvornik Brigade after

 3     Blagojevic.

 4        Q.   It says here that Marko Pavlovic is deployed in the Serbian Army?

 5        A.   Yes --

 6        Q.   The document bears the date of the 22nd of August, 1992?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   The facts from this document, do they correspond to what you knew

 9     about Marko Pavlovic's position and deployment at the relevant time?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Witness, is it correct that Biljana Plavsic was in Zvornik a few

12     days before the conflict, a day or two before the conflict?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Is it correct that a meeting was held with her, it was a meeting

15     of the Crisis Staff and the municipal leadership with her, and that you

16     attended part of the meeting?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Did you hear Plavsic ask at that meeting to have Arkan called to

19     Zvornik?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Did you know at that point in time about the relationship between

22     Arkan and Plavsic?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   At this meeting with Plavsic before the conflict, was Peja in

25     attendance as well?

Page 9745

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Is it correct that Kostic conveyed information to you to the

 3     effect that Arkan was in Bijeljina?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Is it correct that Kostic had not told you or ordered you to

 6     communicate with Arkan, he simply conveyed to you the information that

 7     Arkan was in Bijeljina?

 8        A.   Well, we called this Parliamentary Committee for Serbs Outside

 9     Serbia, and they instructed us to get in touch with Kostic.  Kostic told

10     us that it was best for us to try to contact Arkan because he was in

11     Bijeljina, and perhaps he could help us.

12        Q.   Is it true that Kostic told you several times --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   Is it correct that Kostic told you very bad things about Arkan

16     several times?

17        A.   Yes.

18   (redacted)

19     any dealings with Arkan, that one should stay away from Arkan?

20        A.   Yes.  He said very, very bad things about him and his volunteer

21     guard.

22        Q.   When you came to Bijeljina, did you have the impression that it

23     had already been agreed somewhere that Arkan was supposed to go to

24     Zvornik?

25        A.   Well, I informed him about the situation in Zvornik, and he said

Page 9746

 1     that this Pejic, this associate of his, would go to Zvornik along with

 2     some 20 men.  Now, whether that had been planned at a higher level, that

 3     is something I cannot claim with any certainty.

 4        Q.   So it is possible that Arkan came to Zvornik on the basis of your

 5     request?  I mean, I'm not saying that it's your personal request.  It was

 6     the request of the Crisis Staff, wasn't it?

 7        A.   My opinion is that that is what tipped the scales.  Because the

 8     situation in Zvornik changed from one hour to the other, he was not aware

 9     of it.  I told him about it, and I don't think that he could have had a

10     plan from earlier on.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Did Plavsic come after the take-over of power in the

12     town of Zvornik, itself?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   You testified at some point that that is where she encountered

15     Pejic and greeted him.  What did this meeting between the two of them

16     look like when they first met?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  "You testified at some point" -- could you please

18     allow the Chamber to follow what you're putting to the witness, that is?

19             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Because earlier I had to establish that when you

21     referred to testimony, you were referring to testimony which was not in

22     evidence.  Then you used the statement of the witness and introduced a

23     certain matter, which may appear in the testimony, which is not in

24     evidence but which at that time did not appear in the statement, so we'd

25     like to follow it very closely.

Page 9747

 1             Could you tell us what "at some point" means here?

 2             MR. PETROVIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will -- actually,

 3     I'll give you all the references.  I hesitate in doing so, because I

 4     don't know what the fate of the previous testimonies is going to be.

 5             First of all, as for Kostic's opinion about Arkan, it is

 6     page 15033 in the testimony in Case number 2.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We don't have that.  You should be aware of that.  I

 8     mean, we just haven't got it.  No party tendered it.  The only reason why

 9     we know it's there, because Mr. Jordash asked it to be provided to the

10     witness to review it.  But we want to follow the testimony in all

11     details, so references to the testimony in the second case, unless you

12     give us those pages, doesn't assist us.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, from Case 2, 65 ter

14   (redacted)

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we first ask Madam Registrar to make a

16     print-out, a hard copy, of the page Mr. Petrovic is referring to.

17             Yes, the first case, there we have the hard copies.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Microphone, Mr. Petrovic.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Case 1, encounter

21     between Pejic and Plavsic after the take-over of the town, page 45 in

22     e-court.  I think that the Prosecution up-loaded the document.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The testimony has received what exhibit

24     number, so that I can find it on my computer?

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] A moment, Your Honour.

Page 9748

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, still -- I see she's still busy in

 2     doing what you should have done, Mr. Petrovic; that is, giving us a hard

 3     copy of the relevant page from the second case.

 4             Now, for the first case, Mr. Groome.

 5             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the 65 ter was 5870.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No number has been pre-assigned yet?

 7             MR. GROOME:  I'm not certain, but I can't recall that one has.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then let me see whether I, nevertheless,

 9     should be able to find it.

10             MR. GROOME:  Those of us with hard copies, we would appreciate

11     the transcript page, if Mr. Petrovic could provide that.

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter 5870, page 45 in e-court.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  If it's not released in any way, then the Judges

15     have no access to 65 ter numbers, and that's rightly so because we are

16     supposed to look at the evidence, not at the total series of up-loaded

17     documents.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] May I assist you with the page

19     number, Your Honour, in Case 2; I mean, the page of the transcript?

20   (redacted)

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay, now we have hard copies.

22             Please proceed, Mr. --

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   Witness, what was the manner of the greetings exchanged between

25     Plavsic and Pavlovic?

Page 9749

 1        A.   Well, it was cordial, and they kissed.

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Can you tell us what precisely is Kula Grad?

 5        A.   It's a neighbourhood on an elevation, and it is part of Zvornik.

 6        Q.   Can you tell us what the strategic importance of Kula Grad is for

 7     the town of Zvornik and the area?

 8        A.   Well, it's an area overlooking the rest of Zvornik.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown 65 ter

10     2D276.

11        Q.   Witness, have you had a look at the document?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   As you can see, this is an order issued by Savo Jankovic, major

14     general, commander of the 17th Tuzla Corps?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Do you know if JNA units participated in the activities aimed at

17     capturing Kula Grad?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Did JNA units fire from artillery weapons from this bank of the

20     Drina as part of the activities to seize Kula Grad?

21        A.   I know that there was artillery fire, but I don't know the

22     direction it came from.

23        Q.   Who did the artillery belong to?

24        A.   The JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army.

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my colleague has

Page 9750

 1     just reminded me that we tendered this document on the list of documents

 2     we produced in relation to Expert Witness Theunens, so there's no need

 3     for me to tender it again, since it was discussed at that point.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Perhaps it's important for Madam Registrar to

 5     know that this is dealt with again, that we have revisited this document

 6     today.  That's in the internal systems.

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             Can the witness be shown 65 ter 2D330.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry to leap up but I just noticed Your Honour

10     looking at the time:  Perhaps, for Your Honours' information, I think

11     there's a general agreement we're not going to finish today.  Mr. Groome

12     would like to have half an hour, and I think with having to try to deal

13     with admissibility of the Case number 2 transcripts and with the

14     cross-examination I'd like to do, I think it's extremely unlikely that

15     we'd finish today.  So I --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means that the Chamber will do everything to

17     have an extra session tomorrow morning at 9.00.

18             Just for the parties to know, Madam Registrar, if you could

19     convey this message to CLSS.  We were already informed that

20     practicalities would not oppose against having an extra session tomorrow

21     morning.

22             At the same time, Mr. Petrovic, you gave us now the sources.  You

23     did ask the witness one question, whether he was warned against Arkan and

24     that, You shouldn't have any business with him.  I mean, if you put that

25     question to the witness, it's totally irrelevant to point at another

Page 9751

 1     place where the witness said the same thing.  If you just had asked the

 2     witness, without referring to any earlier testimony, then we would have

 3     saved five to ten minutes and a lot of efforts, which finally result in

 4     knowing that he said the same in the other case.  So one and the same.

 5             You asked questions about how Pejic greeted Mrs. Plavsic.  There,

 6     again, what's the use of referring to evidence we do not have, and then

 7     we have to ask -- since you're referring to it, then we have to look at

 8     it, and then the only thing to find is that there were warm greetings and

 9     that they embraced each other.  If you would not have referred to any of

10     the earlier evidence at some point, then the whole problem would not have

11     been there.  But as soon as you start referring to other material, please

12     be aware that if the Chamber hasn't it available, it will take care that

13     it will be available, at quite some expense of efforts, and totally

14     unnecessary.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I fully accept your

17     criticism, and I will make sure that I proceed differently.

18        Q.   Witness, please have a look at the document.  It's a daily report

19     of the Operational Centre of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the

20     SFRY for the day of the 12th of April.  Please look at the first two

21     paragraphs only.  Therein, losses are listed, losses, apparently, of "own

22     forces," that's what it would appear, and it reads losses of two members

23     of Arkan's men, a member of the TO, whereas, actually -- so three members

24     of the Arkan's group were killed and one TO member and one lady doctor

25     were wounded.

Page 9752

 1             As far as you remember, the Arkan's group acted as part of the

 2     JNA, in other words, as part of the Armed Forces of the SFRY in this

 3     period that we're referring to, 1992; is that right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I tender this

 6     document into evidence and wish that it be admitted as a Defence exhibit.

 7             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the document was received from the

 8     Government of Serbia.  The Prosecution has no objection.  We are unsure

 9     whether it is the subject of an application for protective measures.  We

10     believe it is not, but cannot verify that at the moment.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we provisionally put it under seal.

12             Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  2D330 becomes Exhibit D158, under seal,

14     Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  D158 is admitted under seal.

16             And, Mr. Groome, you're invited within the next five days to

17     inform the Chamber, through the Registrar, whether the document needs to

18     be under seal or not.

19             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

20        Q.   Witness, have you heard of the case involving four individuals

21     who were arrested in Zvornik shortly before the outbreak of hostilities?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Do you know who these four individuals were?

24        A.   I know that it involved Zuco, his brother Legija, and another

25     dentist.

Page 9753

 1        Q.   Do you know the individual by the name of Fadil Mujic?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Who was he?

 4        A.   Fadil Mujic was a colleague of mine in the SUP.  He was the head

 5     of the Crime Department within the police.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, page 10, "Arrest of four Serbs,"

 7     paragraph 54, a chief of the Criminal police department was Fadil Mujic.

 8     What's the use of asking this again?  Are you aware of the arrest of four

 9     Serbs, that covers a whole of a paragraph.  Why not focus on what you

10     want to know in addition, because apparently you are happy with the

11     answer that Fadil Mujic was the chief of the Criminal Police Department?

12     So why ask again?

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] With all due respect, Your Honour,

14     because I don't know what the fate of these documents will be.  We have

15     challenged the documents and the way in which they were drafted, as well

16     as the approach taken through 92 ter, but these are only two introductory

17     questions that I put.  I have two or three more questions, and I will

18     finish then.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  What the fate will be of the 92 ter application

20     depends on what is shown during the remainder of the cross-examination.

21     Now, asking questions and being satisfied with exactly the same answers

22     as we find in a document might earlier -- might, rather, support a 92 ter

23     application than challenge such an application.  Could you please try to

24     limit the number of introductory questions, unless they are really

25     necessary.

Page 9754

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   Witness, did Mujic tell you that he received two phone calls from

 4     Colonel Boskovic from Belgrade on the issue of these four arrested

 5     individuals?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Did he tell you that Colonel Boskovic said that two of the four

 8     arrested were military policemen?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Did Mujic tell you that General Jankovic from Tuzla also called

11     him with a request that the two individuals be released?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Were both of them, Colonel Boskovic and General Jankovic, only

14     interested in this individual, Bogdanovic, and Legija?

15        A.   No, they were interested in all four of them.

16        Q.   Were these individuals at some point released from detention in

17     Zvornik?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Do you know who Colonel Boskovic was?

20        A.   I don't know.  I know that he was a senior officer of the JNA.

21        Q.   Is that Nedeljko Boskovic, who was the senior officer of the

22     Security Service of the Yugoslav People's Army?

23        A.   Yes, I did read in newspapers that Nedeljko Boskovic was a senior

24     officer of the JNA.

25        Q.   I will now ask you about Vojislav Jekic.  Did this person go

Page 9755

 1     around telling everyone that he was a member of State Security?

 2        A.   I have a very bad opinion of him, and the man is deceased.  Well,

 3     he's the worst sort of person I ever met.  He was the sort of person who

 4     would go around -- his tombstone is destroyed every week, so can I tell

 5     you anything more than that?  It happens only to the worst possible

 6     people?

 7        Q.   Tell us, please, why do you think that this is the worst person

 8     you met in your life?

 9        A.   He hails from Zvornik, and --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Why not get an answer to your first question,

11     Mr. Petrovic?

12             Your answer was -- your question was:

13             "Did Vojislav Jekic go around telling everyone that he was a

14     member of the State Security?"

15             That was the question, and I wouldn't mind to receive an answer

16     to that question.

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] It seemed to me, Your Honour, that

18     I had heard the answer in B/C/S, but now I see that it's not in the

19     transcript.

20        Q.   Can you tell us -- can you answer that question?

21        A.   Yes, he did go around saying that he was a member of the State

22     Security of Serbia, an official of the State Security of Serbia.

23        Q.   Could you tell us now, very briefly, what your response to the

24     second question would be, in relation to your opinion about Jekic?

25        A.   He hails from Zvornik, and he appeared when the war started.

Page 9756

 1     However, very soon we found out that he was just a wheeling-dealing sort

 2     of person.  I don't know what the right medical term would be for this,

 3     but he obsesses.  I think that you can check this with other people, but

 4     whatever this man ever said was a lie.  Otherwise, this is my personal

 5     opinion, but everybody in Zvornik thinks that he is a very, very bad

 6     person.  He pursued his personal interests, and he was prepared to do

 7     anything for the sake of those personal interests.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Witness, I would just like to go back to something, a

 9     question that I omitted, the action concerning Kula Grad.  Do you know

10     that JNA Officer Stupar, with his soldiers from the 72nd Brigade, also

11     participated in the activities that had to do with the taking of

12     Kula Grad?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that you only know of Franko Simatovic,

15     Frenki, from the media?

16        A.   Yesterday, when the Judge cautioned me about these people, I

17     never saw these people before.  I have never seen them in my life before

18     this, and so I was interested in seeing them.  I saw Mr. Stanisic a few

19     times in the newspapers, but I never saw this other gentleman's

20     photograph, even.  So then perhaps I was a bit too interested yesterday,

21     and that's why I was looking at him so much.

22        Q.   On that basis, I conclude that you know nothing about the role of

23     Franko Simatovic, Frenki, with regard to developments in Zvornik or

24     anywhere else.

25        A.   I first heard of him when the indictment was issued against him,

Page 9757

 1     and that's when I saw.

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

 3             Just a moment, please, Your Honours.

 4        Q.   Witness, when the town of Zvornik was taken, was there a small

 5     celebration that took place of any kind?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Can you tell us whether that celebration was attended by

 8     Colonel Milosevic, the then-commander of the JNA from Romanija?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Did Arkan attend the celebration?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             Your Honours, I have no further questions.

14             Thank you, Witness.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

16             Mr. Jordash, are you ready to --

17             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.  If I may just get the lectern.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes, the furniture has to be moved.

19             Nowadays, it's plug-and-play, but the plug-in seems to be not

20     easy.

21             MR. JORDASH:  I think we'll use the old microphone.  Thank you.

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:

23        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.

24        A.   Good afternoon.

25        Q.   May I quickly ask you about a subject which, in some ways, comes

Page 9758

 1     before I get to the substance of your evidence.

 2             Is it right that after the end of the war, the Kula video of the

 3     centre involving the group the Red Berets was played very frequently on

 4     the TV in Serbia?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And when I say "frequently," I mean hundreds of times.  It was

 7     something that the population of Serbia were able to watch hundreds of

 8     times?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, could I ask that we be a bit more

12     specific after the time-frame?  "After the war" includes all the way up

13     to today and is a rather extensive period.

14             MR. JORDASH:

15        Q.   Do you recall when you first watched the video or the programme?

16        A.   I don't remember, but I know that it was broadcast on TV very

17     often.

18        Q.   Would it have been in the late 1990s, early 2000?

19        A.   I think that that would be right, but I really do not remember.

20        Q.   Did you watch it before you actually spoke to the Prosecution,

21     before your involvement with the ICTY?

22        A.   I think the answer would be, Yes, but I'm not sure.  I do not

23     remember.

24        Q.   Could I try to trigger your memory.  Was it in the news in 2002?

25        A.   Yes, yes, I think that is right.

Page 9759

 1        Q.   Would you agree with me that when you were interviewed by the

 2     Prosecution, you had, in your possession, many facts which came from the

 3     watching of that video?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Would you agree with me that many of your ex-colleagues,

 6     colleagues from the time of the event in Zvornik and so on, would also

 7     have been in possession of those facts derived from the video?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Now, you spoke yesterday about the pressure.  And I don't want to

10     mis-characterise what you said, but did I understand you correctly that

11     you, yourself, felt pressure, when speaking to the Prosecution, to

12     provide the type of details that you thought they wanted to have?

13        A.   Yes, that's correct.

14        Q.   And am I correct that in relation to -- in relation to -- well,

15     let me start that again.

16             When you were interviewed by the Prosecution, were you aware that

17     they were interested in details concerning the alleged role of the

18     State Security in the conflict?

19        A.   Yes, they were interested in that.

20        Q.   Were you aware, when they interviewed you, that they were seeking

21     to prosecute members of the State Security, including the two accused we

22     have here today?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Were you aware that they were seeking to prosecute members of the

25     Serbian Ministry of the Interior at any point when you were being

Page 9760

 1     interviewed by the OTP?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   You spoke yesterday about -- or you gave evidence yesterday

 4     about --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, when we're talking about interviews,

 6     just for the Chamber's information, what interviews are you talking

 7     about?  Of course, we have a statement of 2008, but it seems to me as if

 8     you're referring to earlier interviews.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I was --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I my be wrong, but --

11             MR. JORDASH:  I was putting the matter globally just to see if

12     the witness had any recollection or --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But, of course, the Chamber's only informed to

14     a limited extent about all kind of interviews, and if what you're doing,

15     if you are asking questions apparently to demonstrate that answers may

16     have been influenced by the knowledge of the witness, then, of course,

17     it's for us important to know where to find those answers where you

18     suggest they may have been influenced.

19             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I don't have -- I have some specifics, but I

20     was seeking to find out just generally what the situation was with the

21     witness.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then you will understand that it's far more

23     difficult for us to follow any suggestion if we do not know on what

24     place, and when it was, and in what kind of answers it may have resulted

25     in.  General knowledge is less of assistance than specific knowledge.

Page 9761

 1             MR. JORDASH:

 2        Q.   Let me take you to the 2008 statement, Mr. Witness.

 3             Perhaps we can have it up on the e-court.

 4             Sorry, can I just have one moment, please.

 5             5865, please.

 6             Now, I want to understand a bit more about how this statement

 7     came into being.

 8             You told us yesterday that this statement -- if you look at the

 9     screen so you understand what I'm talking about.  This statement was

10     prepared by the Prosecution; correct?  It was prepared from a collection

11     of previous statements or interviews you'd given; correct?

12        A.   That's right.

13        Q.   You said yesterday that you'd been in a hurry at the time when it

14     was shown to you?

15        A.   They read it out to me, and I signed it.  However, I was not

16     given a copy then because we were in a hurry to catch a plane.

17        Q.   So it was read out to you once or more than once?

18        A.   Once, it was read out to me once.

19        Q.   Did you feel you had adequate time to review it in that process

20     of having it read out to you once?

21        A.   Well, there was as much time as there was.

22        Q.   What -- did you listen to the detail, and did you, in your mind,

23     have an opportunity to review it during that process or not?

24        A.   Well, there was a camera there.  It was videotaped.  It was also

25     recorded.  There was an audio-recording, there was an interpreter, so we

Page 9762

 1     worked along the way.

 2        Q.   If you'd been asked the same questions orally, would you have

 3     given the same answers?

 4        A.   Well, it depends on the context.  It depends on the context,

 5     because this is just a small excerpt of the whole story in its entirety.

 6        Q.   So you would have given many more details if examined orally on

 7     the same subjects?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And would you have expressed things differently if you'd been

10     asked questions orally on the subjects?

11        A.   Well, certainly the context would have been a bit different.

12        Q.   Would you agree that this statement is extremely generalised and

13     you would have liked to have given more specific answers and explained

14     what was in the statement?

15        A.   Yes, certainly, with regard to certain things, further

16     clarification is needed.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, perhaps to cut matters short:  I

18     discussed with my colleagues whether it would not be good to have the

19     video and the audio in evidence so that the Chamber is able to verify for

20     itself to what extent the statement, as put on paper, reflects, and with

21     what accuracy, what the witness said during his interviews.

22             MR. JORDASH:  The video and the audio of --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Of the interview the 16th and the 18th of December,

24     2008, if I'm not making any mistakes.

25             MR. JORDASH:  The 15th and the 16th?

Page 9763

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The 15th and the 16th, yes.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I will leave the matter there, then, if

 3     that's Your Honours' decision.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I would --

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then let me ask one question in relation to this.

 7             Witness, when you were interviewed in December 2008, were you

 8     able to phrase the answers as you wished, or were you cut short, or -- I

 9     mean, you say, Well, a lot needed to have said in addition to what I

10     said.  Is it your recollection that you were -- you were kept off from

11     telling further details or that you were not free to give the answers as

12     you wished?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, everything that is written here

14     is my statement.  However, I'm saying this in order to create the right

15     picture.  For example, if they asked me, Were people being armed in

16     Zvornik, I say, Yes.  And then on the basis of that, they say, Only that?

17     Whereas I spoke about arming over an hour, and they just write it up in

18     two sentences.  This statement does, for the most part, reflect the

19     essence of my statement fairly.  However, further explanations and

20     clarifications are required for quite a few things.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Now you tell us that you said far more during your

22     interview which was video-recorded.  Do I understand your complaint to be

23     that the written version of your statement does not give the details and

24     the clarifications you gave orally, and that that's the reason why you

25     consider the written statement to be -- well, let's say, at least to be

Page 9764

 1     far from what you would suggest would be the complete picture as you have

 2     given in your interview?  Is that correctly understood?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what to answer.  Quite

 4     simply, it depends on the kind of picture one wants to create.  I don't

 5     know.  This is the picture that the Prosecution wanted to paint, and that

 6     would be it.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's take, then, the matters step by step.

 8             I earlier asked you whether, during the interview, you were

 9     prohibited or kept off from telling what you wanted to give as an answer.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not stopped by the

11     Prosecution from saying anything I wanted to.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you consider that you gave the explanations and

13     the clarifications during your interview, apart from whether it appears

14     on paper; yes or no?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you consider that what you gave as answers is not

17     reflected in the written statement in sufficient detail as you wished to

18     answer the questions?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The essence was presented here in

20     that statement.  Now, if there is some details that should be explained,

21     here I am, and they can ask me what they're interested in.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  But would we find further details in the interview,

23     itself, although not, as you said, put on paper?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if that were to be done, it

25     would not essentially change my statement.

Page 9765

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, the Chamber has no further questions in

 3     this respect.  And as I said before, if none of the parties will tender

 4     the video-recording, then the Chamber will ask for it to be --

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, there might be some confusion, and

 6     I think only the Prosecution can clear this up, and that's this:  I'm not

 7     sure if this statement is a compilation of the interview on the 15th and

 8     16th of December or is, in fact, a statement which is a compilation of

 9     conversations had on the 15th and 16th alongside the witness's suspect

10     interview.  And the reason I say that is because the suspect interview

11     has many of the remarks to be found within this statement, and it -- the

12     general tenor of the interviews that -- sorry, the transcript from Case 1

13     and 2 is that the Prosecution are in those -- in that examination, and

14     the witness also is accepting that fact, that this statement is a

15     compilation of both the suspect interview and conversations held on the

16     15th and 16th.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I suggest that you first discuss this briefly

18     with Mr. Groome.  Of course, the video-recording is about the 15th and

19     16th of December, 2008.  I mean, we have had quite a bit of litigation on

20     that video, isn't it, although from a totally different angle.  So,

21     therefore, I suggest that you briefly discuss that with Mr. Groome,

22     unless he could give us an answer right away.

23             MR. GROOME:  I can, Your Honour.

24             And the first point is the Prosecution's intention to tender the

25     video as well as the actual transcript of everything that occurred during

Page 9766

 1     that interview - it's all a matter of record - during redirect.

 2             With respect to how that material came into being, the

 3   (redacted)

 4     to make a composite 92 ter statement.  That statement included the

 5   (redacted)

 6     case.  That was put together, and then it was gone over with the witness,

 7     who made additional changes to it during that period in 2008.  And that's

 8     what we have.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And may I take it that the suspect interviews

10     have been recorded and transcribed as well?

11             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour, and they are available for the

12     Chamber, if the Chamber wishes to view those as well.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, of course, some questions are raised in

14     respect of the background.  And then, of course, if these doubts, as

15     expressed by the Stanisic Defence, remain, then if the material is there,

16     there is a way of, well, going into it in some depth.  I'm not saying

17     that you would cover everything, but at least there are opportunities to

18     further verify what is found in those materials which would fit the

19     suggestions you are implicitly making, Mr. Jordash.  Therefore, the more

20     material we have, the better we may be able to assess any such

21     influences.

22             MR. JORDASH:  And in that regard, Your Honour, may I ask that the

23     transcripts from Case 2 be similarly made exhibits?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  As 92 ter or --

25             MR. JORDASH:  If Your Honours are putting in the remainder

Page 9767

 1     pursuant to 92 ter, then, yes, pursuant to 92 ter.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But then, of course, the -- well, the witness

 3     has reviewed the second set.  We could ask him or perhaps ask him even to

 4     do a bit more overnight, but -- Mr. Groome.

 5             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I rise simply to say the Prosecution is

 6     not tendering the video and the transcript of the entire proceedings as

 7     92 ter, but just as evidence for the Chamber to be able to evaluate the

 8     92 ter statement, which is the underlying statement.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but the problem is that if something is in

10     evidence, it's always -- it's not easy to say we'll use it as evidence

11     but only for the purposes of establishing that sheep are white or sheep

12     are black.  That's -- evidence is evidence.  And we do not know in

13     advance what we'll find there, although the clear purpose of looking at

14     it is to further explore matters which are raised in cross-examination.

15             MR. JORDASH:  May I just have a moment.  I just want to try to

16     consult with my colleague very briefly, please.

17                           [Defence counsel confer]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             Meantime, I'll use the opportunity by telling the parties that it

20     is confirmed that the Registry units can support the session of tomorrow

21     morning, but that they would have been much like to have an indication of

22     the time that session would take, in order not to reserve unnecessarily

23     any human resources.

24             MR. JORDASH:  I would, ideally, I think, need two more sessions

25     tomorrow to be able to complete, if I have to deal now with the Case 2,

Page 9768

 1     which may take 20 minutes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  If you have to?  You have chosen to.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Well, yes --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  I have to, in that sense.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And you were aware, at the beginning of the

 7     testimony of the witness, you had reviewed that material you had given to

 8     the witness.  But let's see how far we come tomorrow.  Two sessions.

 9             Mr. Groome, you need half an hour?

10             MR. GROOME:  As it stands presently, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay, we'll consider it.  And whether you'll

12     get the two sessions, Mr. Jordash, also depends, as always, on the

13     efficiency of your cross-examination.  And I'm not talking about the

14     content, but about how you use your time.

15             Please proceed, and I think we should take a break in

16     approximately five minutes from now.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, would it be -- could I invite

18     Your Honours to take a break now, only so that I can discuss the issue --

19     our position in relation to the statements that Your Honours are

20     considering putting into evidence?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, just to address you on P157 [sic], the

23     document that was provisionally placed under seal:  We can affirm that

24     the Government of Serbia is not seeking protective measures for that

25     document.

Page 9769

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Madam Registrar, you are instructed to change

 2     the status into public of P157.

 3             We'll take the break now, and we'll --

 4             MR. GROOME:  I'm sorry.  It's D157.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D157, yes.  I also heard "P," but it's D157.

 6             We'll take a break, and we'll resume at 10 minutes to 6.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 5.21 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 5.54 p.m.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, you may proceed.

10             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, may I briefly just indicate what our

11     position is concerning the material that gave rise to the 2008 statement.

12             I think we're in agreement with Mr. Groome that the evidence

13     should be before Your Honours, but not as a Rule 92 ter, but as evidence

14     which would allow Your Honours to consider whether, in the final

15     analysis, the evidence should be admitted pursuant to 92 ter, and for

16     that limited purpose only.  And I raise that now, because if it's going

17     in as 92 ter, that obviously creates whole new pieces of evidence which

18     we have to, from the Defence perspective, deal with.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I see that point, and --

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, the Chamber will admit it as evidence,

22     not Rule 92 ter, and, therefore, not primarily focusing on the truth of

23     the content of that, because that's what we talk about, but we are

24     primarily interested in the background.  Of course, we've not seen all

25     that material yet.  But if that approach would change at any moment or if

Page 9770

 1     you would be inclined to change that approach, we'll inform the parties,

 2     and a fair opportunity will be given them to deal with it.  But I do not

 3     expect so, because it -- well, you've seen how we slowly approached this

 4     moment and why the Chamber and at what moment the Chamber considered

 5     having it admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 8             MR. JORDASH:

 9        Q.   Mr. Witness, I want to ask you now about your testimony in the

10     second case.  You were given, I think two or three days ago, a DVD of

11     that testimony.  Did you listen to it?

12        A.   I did.

13        Q.   Did you listen to it with a view to reviewing it, to check its

14     accuracy?

15        A.   Well, to remind myself of what it was that I said.

16        Q.   Did you note any clarifications or did you have any

17     clarifications to make concerning that testimony?

18        A.   Well, if you ask me, I will clarify certain matters further.

19        Q.   Well, I'm -- did you take note of the clarifications you wanted

20     to make, if any?

21        A.   I did not.

22        Q.   Do you have a recollection of the clarifications you want to

23     make?

24        A.   That's the material I reviewed over the break yesterday, and

25     there were a few corrections that I gave.

Page 9771

 1        Q.   No, I think we're talking about two different things.

 2             Yesterday, you looked at the 2008 statement; is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Overnight, you looked at or listened to the testimony in Case 1;

 5     correct?

 6        A.   That's correct.

 7        Q.   I'm now focusing on the evidence in Case 2, which I understand

 8     was given to you upon your arrival at the Court.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's keep that very -- the day before you came to

10     court, you told us that you received material from the driver, as you

11     said, at -- I think it was at 5.00 p.m.  Did you review that material,

12     which is the recording of your testimony you've given in January of this

13     year?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I listened to it.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what Mr. Jordash is asking you about.

16             MR. JORDASH:

17        Q.   And did you have any clarifications to make, or alterations, or

18     changes?

19        A.   I don't know.  It's my evidence.

20        Q.   Did you agree with what -- did you agree with what you'd said on

21     those occasions while testifying in Case 2?

22        A.   For the most part, yes.

23        Q.   Were there any parts that you wanted to change?

24        A.   I didn't pay that much attention to it, so I can't give you an

25     answer.

Page 9772

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, perhaps we start with the first

 2     question, as I did a couple of times.

 3             When reviewing that material, did you find anything where you

 4     said, This is not right, this is not in accordance with what I then knew

 5     or now know to be the truth?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Your answer to the question whether you would want

 8     to change anything, is that that you would consider to add something or

 9     to clarify something, although you have no clear recollection of what you

10     actually wanted to further clarify or what you'd like to add any further?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, Mr. Jordash, I take it that it would be

13     fair to give an additional opportunity to the witness to see whether he

14     comes up with anything, and perhaps this evening he could use that for

15     it.  Time is limited, I know that, but he has reviewed it, and there's

16     nothing, as he said, really wrong or incorrect, but there may be matters

17     that you want to further clarify or whether he might want to add

18     something.

19             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You're invited to look at that again this

21     evening, Witness JF-026, and then to tell us tomorrow whether there are

22     any specific matters which you would like to further clarify or what you

23     would like to add.  Is that clear?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand what you say, but I've

25     just told the section, too, that I'm travelling tomorrow.  I won't be

Page 9773

 1     here tomorrow.  I can't be here tomorrow.  It's been seven days that I've

 2     been here, and I have certain commitments that cannot be postponed.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We have received that message, Witness JF-026.  We

 4     tried to do our utmost best to finish your testimony as soon as possible.

 5     In view of the fact that you are not inclined to speak with the Office of

 6     the Prosecution and in view of the fact that we spent quite a bit of time

 7     on the way in which you communicated with the Victims and Witnesses

 8     Section, making yourself available, spending a lot of time on that in

 9     court, rather than to being able to settle these matters out of court,

10     this Chamber has decided that it wishes you to remain available and to

11     finish your testimony tomorrow.  At what time that exactly will be

12     depends, to some extent, on the parties.  Therefore, you are under an

13     order to appear again in court tomorrow morning.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I simply cannot honour

15     that, with all due respect.  I have commitments that I have assumed.  I

16     have to live by something.  I have to make sure that I have my earnings.

17     And there is one place where I have to be tomorrow.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that.  Had you raised this matter

19     any earlier than today with the Witnesses and Victims Section?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only today, upon learning that the

21     examination would be prolonged.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No date was set yet for it to end.

23             At the end of this session, I'll inform you about your position

24     as a witness, and I'll also inform you about possible consequences of not

25     obeying to an order of this Chamber.

Page 9774

 1             Mr. Jordash, let's focus first on the evidence, and let's

 2     proceed.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, could we have, please, on e-court

 4     1D1694.

 5        Q.   I want to take you, Mr. Witness, straight to the evidence in Case

 6     2 and ask you to clarify something.  And the subject I'm dealing with is,

 7     really, the background to the arming in Zvornik.

 8             And it's e-court page 53.

 9             I understand you don't speak English or read English.  Is that

10     right?

11        A.   That's right.

12        Q.   Let me read you the section I'm interested in; e-court 53,

13     page 14873 of the transcript.  This should be Case 2, 1D1694.  No, I

14     think we've made a mistake.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. JORDASH:  1D01649.  Apologies.

17             And while that's coming up, let me read the answer that I'm

18     interested in.

19        Q.   You say this at line 3:

20             "Well, you see, we often put that question to the leadership of

21     the SDS.  Why was he in contact with Milosevic at the time, who, after

22     all, advocated some ideas that were Communist ideas in terms of

23     continuing with the regime?  Why was there not contact with other parties

24     that were more democratic than the regime?  However, we contacted those

25     who could help us.  That was -- it was only the SPS that was in

Page 9775

 1     government then, and the relationship between the SPS and the Radicals

 2     was terrible at the time.  We went to see them in Loznica and elsewhere.

 3     We held these meetings with them, and they warned us, and they had

 4     strings attached to it as well, that we should not have contacts with

 5     opposition parties because this parliamentary life in Serbia, the

 6     multi-party system in Serbia, had not started functioning fully.  So we

 7     contacted with the SPS and the Radicals and others like Vuk Draskovic

 8     from the SPO and the others, the Serb Renewal Movement, et cetera.  So we

 9     didn't really have contact with them, and we were even under the

10     surveillance of the SPS, that we should not have contact with them."

11             Do you recall that evidence?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Were you referring to 1991, late 1991?

14        A.   Yes, 1991.

15        Q.   And when you made the comment that the relationship between the

16     SPS and the Radicals was terrible at that time, what did you mean?

17        A.   Well, the Radicals were in the opposition.  The SPS was in power.

18     As far as I'm able to tell you, as far as my political knowledge takes

19     me, these were various political options that held differing views on

20     matters.

21        Q.   And why was that relevant to -- if it was, why was that relevant

22     to the assistance you could receive in Zvornik?

23        A.   Those of us in Zvornik were a minority, we were fearful, and we

24     tried to obtain assistance from all and any potential sources, including

25     those in power, those in opposition, et cetera.

Page 9776

 1        Q.   Let me ask you too about another piece of evidence; e-court 23,

 2   (redacted)

 3     correct that most of the volunteers who came to Zvornik came as

 4     individuals, rather than as armed groups, from Serbia?

 5        A.   Solely as individuals, except for the Arkan's group, which

 6     numbered some 15 to 20 men.

 7        Q.   Which came from Bijeljina?

 8        A.   They came from Bijeljina, and among them were people who hailed

 9     from Bijeljina, such as Mauzer and some other locals who joined his unit.

10   (redacted)

11     hope is e-court 23 -- e-court page 23.

12             Okay, it's the same.  I'm just being told that I could be being

13   (redacted)

14     but in e-court you should have page 23.

15        Q.   So most of Arkan's group which came to Zvornik hailed from

16     Bijeljina; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.  Those were local men who joined his unit there.  There was

18     also the Serbian Volunteer Guard, led by Major Mauzer.  That's how he was

19     called.

20             MR. JORDASH:  Okay.  Sorry, it's my fault again.  1D1650.  I do

21     apologise.  Page 23.  Perhaps we can deal with it quite quickly.

22        Q.   Am I correct that the individuals who came as volunteers came

23     unarmed when they crossed over from Serbia?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Do you know why that was?

Page 9777

 1        A.   They had to go through the border control, so they could not

 2     carry long-barrelled weapons from Serbia.

 3        Q.   And are we talking about the period around September 1991 onwards

 4     through to the attack on Zvornik in 1992?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And this also applied to Seselj's -- or the men who were

 7     associated with the SRS; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

10             Could we have on the screen, please -- oh, before we do go there:

11        Q.   Am I correct that Seselj's men or the SRS men, some of them came

12     from Bubanj Potok in JNA uniform?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Did those in the JNA uniform come armed, or did they simply pick

15     up their arms when they arrived in Zvornik?

16        A.   When they arrived in Zvornik, that was when they received

17     weapons.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

19             Could we have on the screen 1D1057, please.

20        Q.   While that's happening:  The poor relationship you spoke of

21     between the government and the SRS, did that manifest itself in any way,

22     in terms of the SRS volunteers having to leave Serbia secretly or

23     clandestinely?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   For what reason?

Page 9778

 1        A.   For the most part, they were criminals, people with a criminal

 2     record.

 3        Q.   And were those volunteers concerned that they would be arrested

 4     by the Serbian police if they were found travelling outside of Serbia?

 5        A.   Yes.  Most of them were individuals who had absconded justice.

 6     In addition to that, the battle-field was the appropriate place for

 7     plunder and such activities.

 8        Q.   What we have on the screen is a report by the State Security

 9     Service of Serbia.  The centre is Belgrade, and the date is the 4th of

10     November, 1993.  And as you can see, it's an official note on the

11     activities of Vojin Vuckovic, aka Zuca, at the commander of the

12     paramilitary unit Yellow Wasps.  And there's a reference there, if you

13     look at the first paragraph, to a visit to the members of that centre to

14     the Republika Srpska in October of 1993 to gather intelligence on

15     paramilitary units, particularly the unit known as the Yellow Wasps.

16             Did you ever become aware of that visit and the attempt to gather

17     evidence?

18        A.   I wasn't aware of it.  I only know that some of them were

19     subsequently on trial in Sabac in Serbia.

20        Q.   Let me ask you to look at the bottom paragraph there.  And

21     there's a reference there to the unit being helped, in a way,

22     financially -- this is the Yellow Wasps -- "helped, financially, and

23     through influential people by the SRS, which was particularly influential

24     in the area of Zvornik, Loznica and Bijeljina.  This initial assistance,

25     which strengthened the Yellow Wasps, subsequently became a way of

Page 9779

 1     amassing a substantial amount of assets both for individuals and the

 2     party."

 3             Does that accord with your experience of how the Yellow Wasps

 4     were funded, at least in part?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Let me ask you to look at the second page, please, of the English

 7     and the B/C/S, and I want to ask you about the reference there to

 8     Dr. Vidovic.

 9             Did you know this doctor that's referred to here?

10        A.   Yes, I knew him.

11        Q.   And would you confirm he was murdered in Mali Zvornik?

12        A.   Yes, he was killed in Mali Zvornik, in his flat.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

14             May I tender this as an exhibit to be MFI'd so we can indicate to

15     the Prosecution the provenance?

16             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             And just one other issue I would raise is it seems to be

18     redacted.  Is that a redaction done by the Defence?  The beginning of the

19     first page seems to have redactions in the top left-hand corner.  We

20     would appreciate seeing the unredacted version of the document.

21             MR. JORDASH:  It came from the National Council in that way,

22     redacted.  We can --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if it will be MFI'd, and I take it that we can

24     further explore the reasons for the redaction.

25             Mr. Petrovic.

Page 9780

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it may happen -- and

 2     I'm not sure because I haven't seen the original.  It may be the case

 3     that this, in fact, is an imprint of the stamp which is affixed to the

 4     page before, to the first page.  I don't think that this was an

 5     intentional move to redact anything.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the original, under the date of the

 7     document -- okay, but let's explore that.  It will be MFI'd for the time

 8     being.

 9             Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D0157 becomes Exhibit D159, marked for

11     identification, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And keeps that status for the time being.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

15             Could we have 1D1058, please.

16             This is a statement of Dusko Vuckovic provided to the Serbian DB

17     as a voluntary statement on the 4th of November, 1993, and I just want to

18     ask about one or two aspects of it to see if you can confirm what this

19     man said.

20             If we can go to page 1 of the English and 1 of the B/C/S, and I

21     want to have a look at the -- towards the end of the big paragraph, top

22     paragraph, where Vuckovic says -- talks about -- and you can see this,

23     where he talks about being trained after being transferred to Prigrevica.

24        Q.   Do you see that?  Have you found that, Mr. Witness?

25             And then -- you nodded?

Page 9781

 1        A.   Yes, I found it, "Prigrevica."

 2        Q.   And it goes on to say:

 3             "Weapons, ammunition, and other army materials were distributed

 4     to us in Ada, all organised by a man called Dragan, who was a reserve

 5     captain and commander of Ada village."

 6             Does that accord with what you remember happening to many of

 7     these volunteers, them being armed at this village?

 8        A.   Yes, yes.

 9        Q.   And then over the page, please, to page 2 of both the English and

10     the B/C/S.

11             At the second paragraph of the English, Vuckovic talks about

12     being accommodated in Zvornik at the Jezero Hotel.  This had been

13     organised by the SRS.  Is that also something you recall, the

14     Hotel Jezero becoming a form of transit point for volunteers?

15        A.   I'm not sure.  I don't remember that.

16        Q.   Let's go over the page, then, to page 3 of the English and page 3

17     of the B/C/S.

18             Well, no, before we go there, let's stay to page 2 of the English

19     and page 2 of the B/C/S, the third paragraph in the English, and the bit

20     I'm interested in is where it says:

21             "This Fadil and Mustafa Jahic, led us out from the SUP at about

22     1300 hours after the start of armed clashes on the 4th of April, 1992.

23     They took us towards the Ranney wells, where we were met by the regular

24     army, and they let us cross to Serbian territory.  After this, we went to

25     the Jezero hotel, and the next day we started the organised combat action

Page 9782

 1     to clear Zvornik.  We received the weapons and ammunition, as well as

 2     other equipment, from the Zvornik TO prior to the start of this action."

 3             Do you agree with that paragraph as something that happened?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And then --

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And then over the page, please, to page 3, the English, and

 8     page 3 of the B/C/S.

 9             The second paragraph into the page, Vuckovic is talking about an

10     arrest, when he was arrested by the police at the check-point at the

11     entrance to Veliki Zvornik.  Were you aware of that arrest?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Were you aware that he was, as the paragraph notes, released from

14     prison a few days later, thanks to the intervention of the president of

15     the Radical Party in Loznica and a lawyer who had been engaged by the

16     same party?

17        A.   I think that he was released as a result of the engagement of the

18     security men.  I don't think that the Radicals would really have assisted

19     him.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, line 15, the answer

22     isn't fully recorded, who has been engaged.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just see.

24             You were asked, Witness JF-026, about the release of

25     Mr. Vuckovic, thanks to the intervention of the president of the Radical

Page 9783

 1     Party in Loznica and a lawyer who had been engaged by that same party.

 2     Could you please repeat the answer you gave there?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't clear on the question,

 4     really.  I know of two Zuca's arrests.  One took place in 1992, in

 5     Zvornik, at the beginning of the war, and the second arrest was in

 6     Bijeljina.  If the question has to do with the first arrest, in that case

 7     it could not have been the Radical Party members that could have helped

 8     him, but the military security men.  If you're referring to the second

 9     arrest in Bijeljina, I have no information whatsoever as to whether he

10     was, indeed, helped by anyone, and, if so, by whom.

11             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, I should have -- sorry.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I see that Mr. Petrovic's concerns have been

13     accommodated.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

17             MR. JORDASH:  For your information, I was talking about the first

18     arrest.

19             If we go on to the last page of the document, I was going to deal

20     with this later, but let's deal with it now; page 5 of the English and 6

21     of the -- 5 of the B/C/S, and the bottom paragraph of the B/C/S should

22     begin:

23             "At the end of July 1992, I was arrested together with my

24     brother, Zuca, and my comrades-in-arms by some specialists from Sarajevo

25     who were members of the Army of Republika Srpska."

Page 9784

 1        Q.   This is the second arrest, am I correct, Mr. Witness?

 2        A.   Yes, you're right.

 3        Q.   And the paragraph goes on:

 4             "They took some 40 of us into custody and took us to the prison

 5     in Bijeljina.  The others were released after seven or eight days, and I

 6     was kept for 15 days and then transferred to Ugljesevik [phoen].  I spent

 7     about 12 days in prison in Ugljesevik and was then returned to Bijeljina

 8     to stand trial.  Since I was not a member of the armed forces, the

 9     Military Court in Bijeljina transferred me to the civilian authorities in

10     Bijeljina.  Since I had freedom of movement, I returned to Belgrade

11     without waiting for the verdict of the Civilian Court."

12             Were you aware of those facts?

13        A.   Yes, I heard of it.

14        Q.   And I think you made reference today, you're aware of the fact he

15     was eventually prosecuted in Serbia and sentenced.  Did you know that?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Let me move on to another document, 1D -- may I

18     tender that as an exhibit to be MFI'd, Your Honour?

19             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, based on the witness's corroboration of

20     the facts, many of the facts in the document and my recognition of the

21     accuracy of others, I do not oppose admission of the document at this

22     time.  I would ask, though, for some explanation with respect of the

23     redaction, where we might expect to see the signature of the person

24     giving the statement, it seems it's been blacked out on each page.  If

25     Mr. Jordash could assist us in understanding that.

Page 9785

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Again, that's how we received it from the National

 2     Council.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and you didn't seek any clarification of that?

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Not from the National Council.  It came from,

 5     I think, DB or MUP archives.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's have it MFI'd, and please try to obtain

 7     further information as to why it is redacted.

 8             Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1058 becomes D160, marked for

10     identification, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

14             Could we have 1D00390.

15        Q.   Again, what's going to come up on the screen, Mr. Witness, is a

16     DB report from the Valjevo DB, and it is dated the 28th of July, 1995,

17     and it's summarising a particular operation, Operation Tomson.

18             Did you ever hear of Operation Tomson?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Let me ask you whether you heard of -- perhaps you don't know the

21     name -- if you ever heard of an operation within Serbia to arrest

22     paramilitary formations who were causing disorder.

23        A.   I heard of the activity, but I do not know under which name it

24     was carried out.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can you confirm where Valjevo is, please?  How far is

Page 9786

 1     it from Zvornik?

 2        A.   Valjevo is about 100 kilometres from Zvornik, perhaps a bit less,

 3     70 or 80.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I want to ask you about page 3 of the English

 5     and page 5 of the B/C/S.

 6             Am I correct, before we get there, that many of the volunteers

 7     who arrived from Serbia were arriving from Loznica?  Let me say that

 8     again.  Loznica.

 9        A.   Yes, most came from neighbouring municipalities, Mali Zvornik,

10     Loznica, Ljubovija.  That is only logical, because they are nearby.

11        Q.   Now, page 3 of the English and page 5 of the -- just so you know,

12     this is a report on Operation Tomson, summarising from 1991 to 1995, and

13     I want to ask you about two paragraphs, the second two -- two paragraphs

14     to the last on the English, and the paragraphs read:

15             "In view of the relatively good organisation of extremists in the

16     territory of Loznica, especially in areas where they run the local

17     authorities or are supported by municipal leaders, there were many

18     difficulties in searches and the confiscation of weapons from persons who

19     were thought to possess illegal weapons.

20             "It was also noted that some state organs, primarily misdemeanor

21     judges in Mali Zvornik and the investigating judge at Sabac, at the

22     District Court in Sabac, viewed with sympathy and tolerated perpetrators

23     of crimes and misdemeanors defined by the Law on Weapons and Ammunition

24     of the Republic of Serbia, which aggravated and impeded further

25     activities by other entities in the prevention and stopping of these

Page 9787

 1     criminal activities."

 2             Now, my question is:  Were you aware, Mr. Witness, that the

 3     volunteers from Loznica -- excuse me, Loznica -- were closely connected

 4     to the authorities in Loznica?

 5        A.   Volunteers from Loznica were not connected with the authorities

 6     in Loznica at the time.

 7        Q.   So you wouldn't agree with this report that the DB compiled, that

 8     they were struggling to deal with their extremist activities, because

 9     once they made arrests, they were then being released by investigating

10     judges, misdemeanor judges?

11        A.   I did not understand you right.  At that time, the Serb Radical

12     Party was in power in Loznica, and this report is quite correct,

13     actually.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

15             May I tender this as an MFI document, please?

16             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, in addition to questions about

17     authenticity, I'd be interested in -- what time-period are we speaking

18     of?  The front of the document says "1995."  Are we speaking about the

19     period of July 1995?

20             MR. JORDASH:  Perhaps I can cast some light on it and ask that we

21     turn up page 4 of the English and page 6 of the B/C/S, And the

22     time-period covered by the report then is made clear.  And it's, as

23     Your Honours can see, an overview of the weapons confiscated by the

24     Serbian DB from -- in these particular years from this particular centre.

25     It's a summary of what the DB was doing pursuant to Operation Tomson.

Page 9788

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Perhaps I'll study it a bit more.  I'm still a bit

 3     confused as to what the date is -- and what time-period the events in

 4     this report from 1995 are being described.  But I can discuss that with

 5     Mr. Jordash and study the document more carefully.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  I can say now it's our case that in 1995, there was

 7     a review of the success or lack of success of Operation Tomson from 1991

 8     to 1995, and that's what this document is.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It may be that Mr. Groome wants to have a look

10     at the document to see whether any time-frames are specified in relation

11     to the portion you just dealt with, and I think we should give him an

12     opportunity to do so.

13             So, therefore, the document will be MFI'd, Madam Registrar, and

14     that is for allowing Mr. Groome to look at what the relevance is and

15     whether he would have any objections in relation to that.

16             Madam Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D390 becomes D161, marked for

18     identification, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  It keeps that status

20     for the time being.

21             Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Now, I want to turn to the evidence you've given about arming in

24     Zvornik.  And you'll recall, before the break or before one of the

25     breaks, that His Honour asked the question about how you -- well,

Page 9789

 1     directed to find out how you were able to quantify who was arming and the

 2     amount of arming that was being done by various entities.  Am I correct

 3     that you quantified the number of weapons that came into Zvornik before

 4     the war as about 3.000?

 5        A.   Yes.  Between 3.000 and 4.000, yes.

 6        Q.   And how were you able to quantify that number?

 7        A.   This is just an estimate.  There is no certainty involved.

 8        Q.   Weren't the Crisis Staff keeping records?

 9        A.   Yes, as to what we had.  However, when I speak about the number,

10     I'm talking about the people who were on the reserve force and so on.

11     Quite simply, the counting was done in ethnic terms, how many Serbs were

12     armed; the army, et cetera.

13        Q.   Am I correct that you would also say this: that the number-one

14     source for arms was the JNA or the TO depots; is that correct?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   And the second was Bogdanovic?

17        A.   Not Bogdanovic.  RSK, Republika Srpska Krajina, via Bogdanovic,

18     who instructed us to report there.

19        Q.   So when you went to see Bogdanovic, whom you've told us was no

20     longer the minister of the interior of Serbia, he directed you to the

21     army; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes, the advice given was to report to the Republic of the Serb

23     Krajina or the JNA, and that was a response to the JNA call-up, to accept

24     the JNA call-up.

25        Q.   I want to ask you something about -- something about what you

Page 9790

 1     said in an interview which you gave to the Prosecution on the 16th of --

 2     17th of February, 2002.

 3             Now, perhaps I can try to save some time by asking you this:  Did

 4     you consider that Bogdanovic was running some kind of parallel state

 5     security service, parallel to the real State Security Service in Serbia?

 6        A.   Well, I personally had the impression that he was very powerful

 7     in the police because he was a former minister.  And in view of the way

 8     in which he resigned in this way, he saved Milosevic, as far as I

 9     understand the politics involved, because of demonstrations that have

10     been organised by Vuk Draskovic.

11        Q.   And what you observed was that there was a group gathered around

12     Bogdanovic who were operating some kind of parallel state security; is

13     that correct?

14        A.   Well, he was influential in the police and in the military.

15     I think that he told us that beforehand he had worked in the Ministry of

16     Defence before he became minister of the interior.  I don't know exactly

17     which position he held, but I think that that is what he told us during a

18     conversation.

19        Q.   And, in any event, he had direct contacts with the Ministry of

20     Defence, from what you observed?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And he could easily pick up a phone and call up members of the

23     JNA to ensure the delivery of supplies?

24        A.   Well, he didn't do that directly in contact with us.  The people

25     he sent us to see could have done that, though.

Page 9791

 1        Q.   I am interested in going back to the phrase "parallel state

 2     security," because it's one I suggest you've used in the past.  We can

 3     turn up the interview, if you want.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, I'm also looking at the clock, and I

 5     might need a bit of time before we can adjourn for the day.

 6             As far as matters stand now for tomorrow, still your assessment

 7     is the same?

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.  I'm actually moving a bit faster

 9     than I thought, but to be on the safe side, I would like to have two

10     sessions.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And half an hour for you, Mr. Groome?

12             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you wouldn't mind, what you intend to do

14     might take certainly more than one or two minutes, and --

15             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, I'm happy to leave it there.  Thank

16     you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             Before we adjourn for today:  Witness JF-026, as you are aware

19     and as I just told you, the Chamber received the message that you

20     couldn't be here with us tomorrow and that you would travel home, and the

21     Chamber was not informed, and apparently you have not given VWS details,

22     apart from in relation to a request, but, rather, information as to what

23     you said you would do.  But apart from that, the Chamber, of course,

24     always should listen to you.

25             Now, you earlier told us that you had business to attend.  Would

Page 9792

 1     you like to add anything?  I'm not giving you any promises, but if you'd

 2     like to add anything to that which you think might change the mind of

 3     this Chamber, you have an opportunity to do so.  We'll carefully listen

 4     to you and see whether there's any specific reason to reconsider our

 5     decision.  So you have an opportunity to add any further details as to

 6     why your presence tomorrow morning in this court is not what you wish.

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you considered any alternative ways of

18     travelling back to Belgrade?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's the problem.  We could

20     perhaps look into the organisation.  I think that my flight tomorrow is

21     after 1.00.  I mean, I would be fine with leaving at 5.00 in the

22     afternoon.  Perhaps they could find an alternative flight for me.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, or you could find one.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't have time.  I'll

25     try, of course.  I would like this to be over as well.  I wouldn't want

Page 9793

 1     to come back, and I'm going to do my best tonight to find an alternative

 2     route or to try to postpone the meeting.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At the same time, the Victims and Witness

 4     Section informed me that they are exploring other options.  I hope that

 5     you'll understand.

 6             And I take it that you also have understood that the Chamber

 7     tried to do its utmost best to conclude your testimony as quickly as

 8     possible.  I earlier said that, to some extent, you could have speeded up

 9     the proceedings as well.  I'm not blaming you for choosing what you

10     apparently have chosen to do; that is, to discuss in detail last Monday

11     the protective measures, which took quite a while in court.  You've

12     chosen not to speak with the Office of the Prosecution.  You are not

13     under a duty to do so, but it certainly has taken some additional time to

14     deal with those matters.

15             Any other thing you'd like to add to that?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll just -- let me first look at the parties.

18             Mr. Jordash, you are aware of the wish of the witness.  I do not

19     know whether that changes in any way your assessment.  I'm not urging you

20     to do that.  I'm just asking you whether what you've heard changes

21     anything.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Can I just take instructions?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

24             Mr. Groome.

25             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, maybe I'm speaking from incomplete

Page 9794

 1     information, but I was informed that we would be able to sit until noon.

 2     The witness has said that he's fine if he leaves the building here at, I

 3     believe, 5.00 in the afternoon, so it seems to me that we've solved the

 4     problem, that he is available tomorrow morning to conclude his

 5     examination.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I didn't take the "5.00" message as a firm one

 7     yet, but --

 8             MR. JORDASH:  It's difficult, I think, sometimes to fly to Serbia

 9     late in the day.  I've had that problem.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, direct flights, certainly.  Sometimes indirect

11     flights might help.  But --

12             MR. JORDASH:  I think I can assist, and I will do my very best to

13     finish within one session.  I think if I --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But, of course, we can't ask VWS to make

15     travel arrangements.  At the same time, I fully understand if you say, I

16     can't give any guarantee.  But then we have to act on the basis of there

17     being no guarantees, and then the Victims and Witness Section will

18     proceed as they deem appropriate.

19             So I earlier asked you for an assessment.  We might limit your

20     time tomorrow morning.  But I'm now asking whether you commit yourself to

21     any time-limit, self-imposed, and what that would be.  If so, I'd like to

22     hear.  If not -- and, again, I'm not urging you, I'm not pressing you in

23     any way, but I'm just -- as always, I'm looking at to what extent we can

24     accommodate the witness's wishes, although inclination to do so might be

25     slightly less than it usually is.

Page 9795

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Perhaps if WVS could have -- or the possibility of

 2     flying tomorrow could be checked, and I will then commit to being

 3     finished within one session, if that allows the witness to get to his

 4     business meeting.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I take it that -- through Madam Registrar,

 6     that you'll receive whatever messages come from the Victims and Witness

 7     Section.

 8             Mr. Groome, your assessment.  Again, I'm not pushing you, as I

 9     didn't push Mr. Jordash.  I'm just exploring where we are, in view of the

10     wishes expressed by the witness.

11             MR. GROOME:  I would need the half hour, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  You need that half an hour.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness JF-026.  The Chamber has considered the

15     circumstances you have raise.  The Chamber has also considered the

16     searches for alternative solutions.  As matters stand now, the Chamber

17     does not reconsider its decision that we'll continue to hear your

18     testimony tomorrow morning at 9.00.

19             At the same time, the Chamber appreciates that everyone seems to

20     be ready to explore alternative solutions, and everyone is encouraged to

21     do so, but we would like to finish your testimony tomorrow.

22             Where I earlier said that you're under an order to appear

23     tomorrow morning, at 9.00 in the morning, that order, therefore, also

24     stands.  And I do understand that you're willing to attend, which is much

25     appreciated.  The Chamber is aware of the problems you're facing at this

Page 9796

 1     moment, but at the same time, in balancing all the interests involved,

 2     also the history of how we ended up in this situation where we have to

 3     continue tomorrow morning, the Chamber is unable at this moment to

 4     relieve you from attending tomorrow morning at 9.00.

 5             Everyone will try to do its utmost best to accommodate you.  To

 6     what extent we'll succeed, to what extent it's possible to keep several

 7     flights open, the Chamber doesn't know, but relies on an inventive

 8     approach by everyone involved.

 9             Since we will adjourn in open session, I, first of all, would

10     like to instruct you again that you should not speak with anyone about

11     your testimony, whether already given or still to be given tomorrow, not

12     to speak, not to communicate in any other way either.

13             May I invite you to follow the Usher so that we can adjourn for

14     the day after you have left the courtroom.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We return into open session.

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

21             We'll adjourn for the day, and we will continue tomorrow, a day

22     which is not in the court schedule for this courtroom, but we'll continue

23     tomorrow morning, the 3rd of -- Friday, the 3rd of December, 9.00 in the

24     morning, in this same Courtroom II, if I'm not mistaken.

25     Madam Registrar, it appears that I'm right.

Page 9797

 1             We stand adjourned.

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 3rd day of

 4                           December, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.