Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9798

 1                           Friday, 3 December 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

 8     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 9             This is the case number IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus

10     Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             Perhaps the Usher could already find the witness.  Would you

13     please verify whether we're in closed session when we -- when you enter

14     the courtroom.

15             Yesterday, we briefly discussed the handwritten letter.

16     Mr. Jordash, I think you still wanted to think about it.

17             MR. JORDASH:  We read it, and we do not see a purpose in

18     tendering it.  But if the Prosecution wish to have it tendered, we won't

19     oppose that.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, any reason why you would want to tender

21     it?

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, it's been referred to now in the

23     testimony.  I will ask additional questions about it, so I believe it's

24     appropriate that it would be marked as an exhibit.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  If that's the case, then -- you received a copy.

Page 9799

 1     Have you up-loaded a copy in e-court?

 2             MR. GROOME:  I don't believe we have, but I can look after that,

 3     Your Honour, during the first session.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we turn into closed session.

 5     [Closed session]    [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in closed session, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9                           WITNESS:  JF-026 [Resumed]

10                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Witness JF-26.  It's appreciated --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  It's appreciated that you're present in court.

14             I would like to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn

15     declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony; that is,

16     that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17             Mr. Jordash, are you ready to continue?

18             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes, thank you.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash: [Continued]

20        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Witness.

21        A.   Good morning.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Could we go straight, please, to 1D1642.  I want to

23     pick up on where we left yesterday.  Page 85 in the e-court, and it's

24     page 105 of the B/C/S.

25        Q.   While that's being found:  We're returning to the subject of

Page 9800

 1     Bogdanovic, Mr. Witness.  And on the English, line -- this is your

 2     interview, Mr. Witness, from the 17th of February, 2002, your interview

 3     you gave to the Prosecution.  Do you recall this, or at least --

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And you can see there, at line 6 of the English, at least,

 6     when -- the question is asked:

 7             "When you say he represented state security, do you mean state

 8     security of Bosnia or state security of Serbia?

 9             "A.  Serbia.

10             "Q.  Do you personally believe that he was a member of the state

11     security from Serbia?

12             "A.  I don't think so.  I think that was a group gathered around

13     Radno Bogdanovic.  That was a sort of parallel state security.  I don't

14     know how to call it, whether patriots or professional intelligence men.

15     You see a man with a secondary school education had such contacts that he

16     could -- that he could easily pick up a phone and call somebody in Serbia

17     and a track with ammunitions, with armament arrives, or uniforms arrive,

18     or he engages the unit of JNA of special forces that attacked Divic and

19     Kula Grad."

20             That's the point I was getting at yesterday.  Your use of the

21     term "parallel state security" gathered around Bogdanovic, could you

22     elaborate on that a bit, please?

23        A.   Well, what I roughly said was that my assessment was that this

24     was a parallel state security.  Now, whether they called themselves

25     patriots at the time or whatever, but they did use the authority that

Page 9801

 1     they had earlier on, and they knew people from earlier on from the MUP

 2     and the Ministry of Defence.  And it is a well-known thing that the

 3     Ministry of Defence is linked with the JNA.

 4        Q.   And you mentioned yesterday about Bogdanovic, that prior to his

 5     involvement with the Serbian MUP, was involved with the minister of

 6     defence.  Can you confirm that he was the Serbian assistant minister of

 7     defence prior to being the minister of interior of Serbia?

 8        A.   I think the answer is yes.

 9        Q.   Is that something you heard when you were involved with visiting

10     Bogdanovic?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   When you visited Bogdanovic, did he recall or mention to you any

13     of his previous contacts with the Ministry of Defence?

14        A.   Well, nothing specific was stated, but I know that he worked at

15     the Ministry of Defence, and I know that he knew all of those people who

16     stayed on after he had left.

17        Q.   How many times do you think you visited Bogdanovic; you,

18     personally?

19        A.   I'm sure about two times.

20        Q.   And did I understand you correctly, that you visited with Kostic

21     at some point?

22        A.   Yes, once.

23        Q.   And were there discussions during that time about what assistance

24     Bogdanovic could give towards Zvornik and the Serbs in Zvornik?

25        A.   Well, yes.  For the most part, it boiled down to those reserves

Page 9802

 1     of weapons they had in the Republic of the Serb Krajina and reliance on

 2     the Ministry of Defence that had links with the JNA, and in this way,

 3     Serb military conscripts were recruited in the reserve force of the JNA.

 4        Q.   Now, you mentioned -- and we'll come back to Kostic in more depth

 5     in a moment or two, but you mentioned in your statement that at some

 6     point he told you that his superior's name was Tepavcevic.  Do you recall

 7     that evidence?

 8        A.   I don't remember the last name, but this may be 1995 or 1994 when

 9     he told me that he worked in the MUP of Serbia.

10        Q.   Right, and that's what I'm trying to aim at.  There wasn't, was

11     there, a discussion during the visit to Bogdanovic, when Kostic was

12     there, a discussion about how Tepavcevic or anyone in the DB could

13     assist?  The discussion was about Bogdanovic saying, Well, the army will

14     assist; is that fair?

15        A.   I think that Tepavcevic was not mentioned then.  The army, the

16     Ministry of Defence, and the Republic of the Serb Krajina was.

17        Q.   And Kostic didn't speak to you in 1991 or 1992 about how his

18     contacts in the DB would assist?

19        A.   He did not mention it at the time.  He was simply speaking from

20     the position that he held in the Republic of the Serb Krajina.  That's

21     how I knew him.

22        Q.   Now, you mention in your statement about -- perhaps I can take

23     you there so we can orientate ourselves.

24             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have Exhibit 5865, please.  I want to stay

25     with the subject of arming.  And paragraph --

Page 9803

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  What statement is that?  What exhibit number is it?

 2             MR. JORDASH:  65 ter 5865.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's not an exhibit.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry.  Yes, it's a --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  If you say what statement it is, then --

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, sorry.  It's the statement of the 15th and

 7     16th of December, 2008.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  And it's paragraph 32.

10        Q.   And before that comes up, let me ask you this question:  Am I

11     correct that there were several bridges across the Drina at the time of

12     the arming?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   There was one bridge at Karakaj; yes?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And there was also an old bridge close by?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   This was a bridge -- at least one of those bridges was the way in

19     which the individual volunteers crossed into Zvornik from Serbia?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Was it also the way in which some of the weapons which were

22     coming from the JNA were transported into the Zvornik region?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now, looking at paragraph 32, if you just read that, you speak of

25     some weapons being illegally obtained from Serbia and Croatia, and you

Page 9804

 1     testify there that Branko Grujic told you that he had agreed with some

 2     people from the Serbian State Security that they would transfer weapons

 3     across the Drina.  And am I correct that that transfer took place not

 4     over the bridges, but by boat?

 5        A.   Yes, the transfer took place by boat.  But I said Serbian

 6     Security Services, that's what I said.  That is what is written there,

 7     too.

 8        Q.   That's right, you did make that comment, and that's what is

 9     written there, according to what you said before, according to the

10     original.  But that transfer took place by boat and not across the

11     bridges.  Does that indicate -- or did that indicate to you that that was

12     being done in such a way as to keep it quiet from the authorities who

13     were manning the bridges?

14        A.   Well, I did not take part in that transfer, but certainly there

15     is something illegal as concerns this transfer.

16        Q.   Well, could you think of any other reason why it would be done by

17     boat rather than straight across the bridges?

18        A.   Probably there was something unofficial about it.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Let's return to the subject of Rade Kostic.  Is it

20     correct that in February of 1992, or thereabouts, Kostic occupied the

21     position of interior -- minister of the interior of the RSK, assistant,

22     effectively, to Matic?

23        A.   Yes, for the region of Slavonia and Baranja.

24        Q.   And from your observations of him and Pavlovic, could this

25     explain why Pavlovic referred to Kostic as "boss" on occasion?

Page 9805

 1        A.   Well, obviously Kostic was a person of authority for him, and

 2     Pavlovic addressed him as "boss" several times in my presence.

 3        Q.   You have testified about Kostic's involvement with arming or

 4     obtaining arms.  Was Kostic's involvement with obtaining arms limited to

 5     what he arranged or what was arranged through Bogdanovic?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Now, you mentioned -- no, let me start that again.  Is it correct

 8     that Kostic had contacts with Dragan Suka or Drago Suka?

 9        A.   Well, Kostic hails from Zvornik, Mali Zvornik, actually, and when

10     he came to the area it is possible that he had some contacts.  But I'm

11     not sure about that.

12        Q.   Can you just explain who Drago Suka was, what you know about him,

13     please.

14        A.   Well, since I worked for the police in Zvornik, and Loznica and

15     Mali Zvornik are neighbouring municipalities, and I note that at the time

16     we were working there, we were working in the same state.  We were

17     colleagues, we cooperated.  I met Drago Suka for the first time when a

18     murder was being investigated that had occurred in Banja Koviljaca.  At

19     the time, he worked in this detachment of the State Security - that was

20     the word that was used - for municipality of Loznica or for this region

21     consisting of several municipalities.  I'm not sure.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Let's go to paragraph 45 of 65 ter 5865.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, could I first seek a clarification of

24     one of the previous answers.

25             Witness 26, you said that Kostic's involvement with obtaining

Page 9806

 1     arms was limited to what he arranged or what was arranged through

 2     Bogdanovic.  In your statement, paragraph 37, you say that you knew

 3     Rade Kostic personally, but that he did not tell you any details about

 4     his position, and that it was after he had died that you became aware of

 5     him having known persons because they attended his funeral.  Now, what is

 6     it that you can positively claim that his involvement didn't go any

 7     further, where at the same time you tell us that Kostic did not always

 8     discuss details of his position with you, and that you apparently were

 9     not even aware of it until after he died?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, we finished the

11     arming in April, when the war started, in 1992.  Up until then, I also

12     visited his home, et cetera.  The man was working in Slavonia and

13     Baranja.  After that, we saw each other a few times.  It was always

14     private encounters.  I never went to his office.  We always visited each

15     other at home.  I did not even know that the man worked in the MUP of

16     Serbia and that he was some kind of a - how should I put this? - person

17     of importance until I went to attend his funeral.  And everything that

18     I'm saying is confirmed in my statement as well.  Everything actually

19     corresponds to this story.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm not saying that that is inconsistent.

21     What I'm asking you is that where, apparently at a certain moment, he,

22     although being a personal friend, he did not share certain information

23     with you, why you exclude for the possibility that his role in arming may

24     have gone beyond what he shared with you.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, in April of 1992, that

Page 9807

 1     was when the conflict started.  We had armed by then, and by that point

 2     JNA or VRS had no need for either Slavonia, or Baranja, or any additional

 3     arming.  We had weapons.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Paragraph 45, just have a look at that, Mr. Witness, please.

 7     Could I ask you this:  Is it fair to say that you don't have any evidence

 8     to back up what you heard about the involvement of Dragan Suka with

 9     Pavlovic concerning weapon distribution?  You didn't see it yourself?

10        A.   Well, this is a rather peculiar question.  I have to explain

11     this.

12             We were still one state.  I lived in the municipality of

13     Mali Zvornik.  My house and that of the chief of police of Mali Zvornik

14     were next to each other.  There was a yard between us.  We were on

15     visiting terms.  Suka and Pavlovic would come to visit both him and me.

16             Now, in answer to the Prosecutor's question whether

17     Marko Pavlovic was on visiting terms with Suka, my answer was, yes,

18     because we were all on visiting terms.  Since this is a small town, we

19     were socialising.  But I have no direct knowledge as to what sort of a

20     relationship he had with Suka, whether there was a professional aspect to

21     it or not.  I know that privately they were on visiting terms, just as

22     Goran Zugic would drop by at that time, as well as all the other

23     individuals who were part of that company.  There was Mustafic with us as

24     well, and Fadil Mujic, the entire crowd.  We would be seeing each other

25     in the home of the chief of the police of Mali Zvornik.

Page 9808

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

 2             Could we have on the screen, please --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Just for my understanding:  What Mr. Jordash asked

 4     you is whether, apart from hearing about these matters, whether you have

 5     any other evidence.  Did I understand your answer well that what you

 6     heard, you heard that from Pavlovic and Suka, and perhaps others?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only thing I know is that

 8     Pavlovic and Suka were together in my company on a couple of occasions.

 9     Now, what the nature of their relationship was, what they were up to

10     together, is not something I know.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  But in your statement, it reads:

12             "I heard they did a lot of work to organise weapons

13     distribution."

14             Did you hear that from Pavlovic and Suka or did you hear that

15     from anyone else?  And if so, from whom?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that this was a comment by

17     Vidovic, or I'm not sure.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Vidovic, the commander of the police station in

19     Mali Zvornik.  Are these the matters that were discussed when you

20     socialised with Vidovic and the others you just mentioned?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  We would frequently discuss

22     activities, but I don't know what the true nature of the relationship

23     between Suka and the other individuals was.  All of us avoided the

24     subject.  So as soon as Suka would be part of the company, we wouldn't be

25     that open and frank in our conversations.

Page 9809

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, your statement says that it is as vague

 2     as that they did a lot of work to organise weapon distribution, and that

 3     is -- although you did not thoroughly discuss the matters, that's what

 4     you learned during those conversations; is that correctly understood?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we may have had suspicions

 6     about the nature of the relationship between Pavlovic and Suka, and I

 7     don't know if they had any sort of special relationship.  What I focused

 8     on was whether they socialised.  And I did say that I saw them together,

 9     but I don't know the nature of their relationship.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  But in your statement, you go further, isn't it, and

11     even in one of your previous answers you told us that this was Vidovic's

12     comment.  Now you suddenly step back and say that you had suspicions.

13     Well, even not knowing whether what was said was true or not, I'm

14     focusing exclusively on what you heard at the time, and which is in your

15     statement described that you heard they did a lot of work to organise

16     weapon distribution.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's accurately written, but

18     I think that, as a matter of fact, Drago Suka would be part of the

19     company in order to see what Marko Pavlovic was up to.  He wasn't quite

20     clear on what he was doing, and I think that the point of him socialising

21     in our company was to find out what Marko Pavlovic's role and activities

22     were.  I think that officially he was monitoring him.  He was, in fact,

23     trying to gather, I think, intelligence about who he was and what he was

24     doing there.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  At the same time, you say it's accurate that you

Page 9810

 1     heard that they did a lot of work to organise weapon distribution, which

 2     is a bit different from the one monitoring the other, isn't it, trying to

 3     find intelligence?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did say that, but it's not true,

 5     Judge.  I said it inadvertently, but it's not true.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  What is not true, the monitoring or --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have any information to the

 8     effect that Drago Suka worked together with Marko Pavlovic.  I think that

 9     Drago Suka monitored Pavlovic as a person of interest who appeared in

10     Mali Zvornik, Zvornik, Tuzla, and so on.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  But where you said that this is accurately written,

12     you confirm that you said that you heard that they did a lot of work to

13     organise weapon distribution.  But now you say, although you have said

14     it, it's not true.  Is that correctly understood?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We will have a look also at the video underlying the

17     statement in this respect.

18             Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9811











11 Page 9811 redacted.















Page 9812











11 Page 9812 redacted.















Page 9813

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  D162 is admitted into evidence, under seal.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  May we have, please, Rule 65 ter 4655.

 5             And this is a State Security Department official note again, this

 6     time dated 7th of January, 1992.

 7   (redacted)

 8        Q.   And we see there Radoslav Kostic's name?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. JORDASH:  If we can go back to the first page.

11        Q.   So 7th of January, 1992, very shortly before the critical events

12     in Zvornik, Kostic appears to be providing information to the

13     State Security Department of Serbia.  And my question is:  Did you ever

14     find out from Kostic or have any indication from Kostic concerning his

15     precise obligations towards the State Security Department in Serbia,

16     vis-a-vis providing information as an operative?

17        A.   Our socialising was of a private nature.  He didn't tell me much

18     about his official contacts.

19             MR. JORDASH:  Okay.  For Your Honours' information, it's accepted

20     from the Stanisic Defence that Kostic had these obligations towards the

21     State Security and was employed in that role at this period in time.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jordash.

23             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

24        Q.   Are you able to assist in providing some background information

25     concerning police officers of Serb nationality in the RSK in this way:

Page 9814

 1     Am I correct that towards the end of 1990 and in 1991, many police

 2     officers of Serb nationality were expelled from the various -- or various

 3     SUPs within the RSK region, expelled by Croats?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Are you privy to any information concerning what happened to many

 6     of those hundreds of police officers, in terms of their applying, then,

 7     to the Serb service for some form of employment so that they could

 8     sustain themselves and provide a livelihood for themselves?

 9        A.   Since the then Yugoslavia had not yet recognised the secession of

10     Slovenia and Croatia, it was the obligation of the SUP to receive all

11     those who wanted to move on to Serbia, because these were policemen, they

12     didn't know what else to do.  It was their livelihood.

13        Q.   And so many of these hundreds of police officers were then

14     employed or at least received a stipend from the Serbian MUP; are you

15     privy to that information?

16        A.   Well, even today I know dozens of such individuals who had

17     precisely that shift of -- in their career.  That was standard practice.

18        Q.   And a few, a very few, I suggest, such as Kostic, were employed

19     on an operative basis within the Serbian DB, with the majority of these

20     police officers being assigned to the public security?

21        A.   Yes, that's right.

22        Q.   In your dealings with Kostic, did you -- let me start that again.

23     In your dealings with Kostic, did he ever tell you that prior to being

24     fired from his position as the police station commander in Darda, he had

25     been a candidate for the assistant minister of the interior in Zagreb?

Page 9815

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Basically, he was considered to be an excellent police officer,

 3     and that's why he was a candidate for the assistant minister of the

 4     interior in Zagreb; did you learn that?

 5        A.   Yes.  I was -- I stayed there in that town, and he was considered

 6     the best policeman, a person of authority, and excelled in every sense.

 7        Q.   And I'm going to suggest that Kostic was known to be an honest

 8     and a decent man.  That was his reputation within Darda and the outlying

 9     regions of Darda?

10        A.   I agree fully.

11        Q.   Now, you spoke about Kostic warning you not to communicate with

12     Arkan, and I want to understand that a little more, because I'm going to

13     suggest that Kostic, even prior to becoming assistant to Martic, was

14     against a movement of paramilitaries into -- in Eastern Slavonia and into

15     the RSK.

16        A.   When he was in Bijeljina, Arkan set up his structure there.  He

17     would always bring along a couple of his men and would then have some

18     locals join.  He would have this organisation there, and then he would

19     move on -- and he moved on to Zvornik.  I was 26 when the conflict broke

20     out.  However, fortunately, I saw Kostic in that period of time, told him

21     of this whole idea, and he, in turn, told me that these were problematic

22     people who had problematic records, and that I should, by no means, have

23     any contacts with them, that I should try to avoid any contact with them.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness also said

Page 9816

 1     something about the contact between him and Arkan, and that's not

 2     reflected in the record.  And I'm referring to this last answer.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did you say anything about your contacts with

 4     Arkan, and could you please repeat that, Witness JF-026?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't understand English.

 6     I don't know what was interpreted.  But the gist of it is that Arkan

 7     suggested that he should have the Serbian Volunteer Guard present in

 8     Zvornik.  And me, being a young man, found it interesting, found it

 9     appealing.  He offered that I should be the leader of that field

10     structure of his, but, fortunately, several days later I saw Kostic.  We

11     had a private conversation, where I shared this idea with him, and he

12     replied that I should not be in contact with these people, that I should

13     refuse this, that I should not have any contacts with people that he

14     considered problematic, and that I should avoid any contacts with them.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, please proceed.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17             Could we have, please, on the screen D67.  Not to be shown to the

18     public.  Thank you.  This is another State Security report, 7th of

19     January, 1992.

20             Could we go, please, to -- I'm not interested, particularly, in

21     the author of this at the moment.  But if we look at page 7 of the

22     English and 4 of the B/C/S, I want to ask about a particular man.

23        Q.   You see the second paragraph there concerning:

24             "Unconfirmed reports indicate that Zeljko Raznatovic, aka Arkan,

25     has founded a so-called Serbian Volunteer Guard ..."

Page 9817

 1             If you just read that paragraph to the end to yourself, I'll ask

 2     you a question or two about it.

 3             Now, have you read that, Mr. Witness?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Do you know if this man, Djordje Bozovic, aka Giska, did you hear

 6     about him?

 7        A.   Yes, I read it in the papers.

 8        Q.   Did you hear about him and he being the commander of a

 9     paramilitary unit?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now, I know it's long time ago to remember conversations, but I

12     suggest that Kostic was responsible for threatening Giska in

13     Eastern Slavonia and ordering him to leave Eastern Slavonia, and

14     successfully removing his group from Eastern Slavonia.  Do you know

15     anything about that?

16        A.   I know that he wanted to protect his family, because apparently

17     there had been some threats, and that apparently Giska was involved.  So

18     he was trying to get his family out of harm's way.

19        Q.   And the threat involved Kostic basically pulling a gun on Giska

20     and ordering him and his group of approximately 30 men to leave

21     Eastern Slavonia.  Did you hear that?

22        A.   Yes.  That is precisely why he was threatened by that group.

23        Q.   Am I correct that --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The last answer is still puzzling me a bit.

25             MR. JORDASH:

Page 9818

 1        Q.   You've just given an answer which says:

 2             "Yes.  That is precisely why he was threatened by that group."

 3             Who was threatened by that group?

 4        A.   Well, Kostic took part in throwing that group of volunteers out.

 5     I think it had been organised by some political party from Belgrade.

 6     They were like a paramilitary structure.  He threw them out.  And I know

 7     that he told me that he was careful about where his children were moving

 8     about, because he had received threats on account of that.

 9        Q.   Threats on account of what?

10        A.   Because of this group of Giska's, because he expelled them from

11     Slavonia and Baranja.

12        Q.   So the sequence of events is:  Kostic throws out this -- or takes

13     part in removing this paramilitary group.  As a result of that, they

14     threaten his family?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, I want to just return very briefly to Bogdanovic.  Did

17     Bogdanovic not mention at any stage his contacts with Arkan?

18        A.   Not in front of me.  But it's a well-known thing that he was

19     president of the Red Star Football Club and Arkan was leader of the fans

20     there, so I think that that contact and relationship is from those days.

21     And how it developed further, I don't know.  Also, rumour had it that

22     when Arkan was arrested in Zagreb by the Croatian police, that Bogdanovic

23     phoned the then minister of the interior to release him.  To everyone's

24     surprise, he released him within two days.

25        Q.   This was towards the end of 1990; is that correct?

Page 9819

 1        A.   Yes, yes, before the start of the conflict in Croatia.  Or,

 2     actually, the clashes had already started.

 3        Q.   And at that point, Bogdanovic was the minister of interior of

 4     Serbia?

 5        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 6        Q.   And was it well known or well rumoured that Arkan had received

 7     his weapons from the federal institute at that time which was a part of

 8     the federal SUP?

 9        A.   Well, I've already said here that he came then in a car that had

10     license plates that belonged to the federal SUP and with full police

11     gear; I mean, uniform, weapons, and communications equipment.

12        Q.   Now, I want to try to understand what happened concerning Arkan's

13     arrival in Zvornik.  You first saw Arkan in Bijeljina or Zvornik; which

14     one?

15        A.   In Bijeljina.

16        Q.   Did you speak to him on that occasion?

17        A.   Yes.  I told him what the situation was like in Zvornik, and I

18     extended an invitation to him, on behalf of the Crisis Staff, to come to

19     Zvornik.

20        Q.   So at that point in time when you extended the invitation --

21     well, why did you extend the invitation at that point in time?

22        A.   Well, because conflicts had broken out in Zvornik, the JNA was

23     attacked by the Muslims, we were a minority, we were expelled from

24     Zvornik.  Quite simply, I mean, at the time we were in an unenviable

25     position, and we sought help.

Page 9820

 1        Q.   So at that point, it was your understanding that Arkan had not

 2     decided or been asked to come to Zvornik; he was then engaged in

 3     Bijeljina?

 4        A.   He was killed [as interpreted] in Bijeljina at the time, and I

 5     went there with my assistant, who was officially on the police force,

 6     because we were sent by the Crisis Staff to invite him.  Had we known

 7     that he would be coming, we would not go there to ask him to come.  After

 8     all, as we crossed the Drina and -- I mean, the way we crossed the Drina

 9     and where we stayed, that shows that there was no preconceived

10     organisation.  It is simply that the situation was such that different

11     decisions had to be made from one minute to the other.

12        Q.   What do you mean, the way you crossed the Drina indicated that

13     there was no preconceived organisation?

14        A.   Well, in Bosnia there were already barricades, roadblocks, in all

15     urban areas.  Near the village of Badovinci, we crossed the Drina on a

16     small boat, not across the bridge, and then during the night we went

17     towards Zvornik.  And since we had nowhere to put them up in Zvornik,

18     because the Muslims held the town itself, we put them up only for one

19     night in a remote hotel that is called Radalj.  This is about six or

20     seven kilometres away from the border with Bosnia.  The Crisis Staff paid

21     for their accommodation at that hotel.  Quite simply, they were guests of

22     the Crisis Staff.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, perhaps I'm a bit confused.

24             One of your answers started:

25             "He was killed in Bijeljina at the time ..."

Page 9821

 1             Who were you referring to?

 2             Perhaps the -- my colleague suggests that there may be a

 3     transcript or translation error and that he was still in Bijeljina at the

 4     time.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  I think that must be right.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then that's caused my confusion.

 7             Now, you said you went there.  You were sent by the Crisis Staff

 8     to invite him.  In your statement, we read that Rade Kostic phoned you

 9     and told you that you were to go to Bijeljina.  Is that the same trip you

10     are talking about?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it has to do with the same

12     trip.  In the statement, I did say that we called that Parliamentary

13     Committee for Serbs Outside Serbia.  We asked different people for help.

14     Inter alia, we spoke to Kostic, who was in Darda at the time.  However,

15     since Bijeljina --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you're talking about the same trip.  In

17     your statement --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  In your statement, it reads:

20             "Arkan told me that the next goal of his unit was Zvornik, and he

21     asked about the situation in Zvornik.  My impression was that it had all

22     been arranged or co-ordinated.  Biljana Plavsic said so, and Rade Kostic

23     told us this as well."

24             Is that correct, or is correct what you told us, or could you

25     explain how to understand the statement compared to the answers you've

Page 9822

 1     just given?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I would really like to

 3     explain this to you, Judge.

 4             It is correct that we contacted the ministry -- or, rather, this

 5     committee, this parliamentary committee.  We called Sarajevo, we called

 6     the headquarters of the SDS, we called the Crisis Staff that was at the

 7     level of Republika Srpska.  We called everyone.  We were looking for

 8     anybody's help, and, inter alia, we spoke to Kostic.

 9             It is true that I went, at that proposal of the Crisis Staff,

10     with my assistant to invite Arkan, because there was this very similar

11     situation that had occurred in Bijeljina and he resolved it within two

12     days.

13             In Bijeljina, also, the Muslims took the town first, and then

14     Arkan came with his unit and established Serb authority in Bijeljina.

15     The same thing happened in Zvornik.

16             It is correct that he said to me that he had heard that that had

17     happened in Zvornik and that his next destination is Zvornik.  I don't

18     know where else he went afterwards, in terms of the theatre of war, but I

19     believed then that there was some plan, that the federal SUP or the

20     federal state, that at the time did not recognise Bosnia-Herzegovina, did

21     have some sort of plan to resolve the crisis.  We particularly believed

22     in the JNA.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's the meeting you talked about which took

24     only two minutes; is that --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, at the Cultural Centre in

Page 9823

 1     Bijeljina.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. JORDASH:

 5        Q.   Perhaps it's me, but I don't understand what the role of Kostic

 6     was in this.

 7        A.   I've already said, we called 50 different sources of assistance.

 8     We were asking for help.  He was in Darda.  We asked whether he had any

 9     weapons left and whether he had any possibility to help us.

10        Q.   And he informed you what concerning Arkan?

11        A.   Well, as we were talking, we referred to how the situation had

12     been resolved in Bijeljina.  Although his view of Arkan was highly

13     negative, he did say at that point in time, You see how they resolve

14     things in Bijeljina.  You could do the same thing.  And that was a signal

15     for me to go and call Arkan and his people, because, after all, Bijeljina

16     had a different population structure that was far more favourable to the

17     Serbs than Zvornik.

18        Q.   And that conversation took place when?

19        A.   Well, I don't know.  I'm not sure about the date, but it may be

20     the beginning of April 1992.

21        Q.   And that was Kostic's involvement, limited to that suggestion,

22     involvement with Arkan's arrival in Zvornik?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, Mr. Jordash, I'd like, then, to seek

Page 9824

 1     clarification of the statement.

 2             Witness JF-026, you said, in relation to going to Arkan:

 3             "My impression was that it had all been arranged or co-ordinated.

 4     Biljana Plavsic said so, and Rade Kostic told us this as well."

 5             So apparently there are now two versions of the story.  The one

 6     is Kostic, one out of fifty people you approached, Kostic saying, Well,

 7     perhaps you could ask Arkan, who did something in Bijeljina, it might

 8     assist you as well.  And the other one, the other version of the story is

 9     Kostic telling you, Report to Arkan, you have a two or three minutes'

10     conversation with him, and you are told by Biljana Plavsic and by Kostic

11     that all had been prearranged and that Arkan had already on his mind to

12     come to Zvornik anyhow.

13             Now, explain to us what is the most -- what's the version which

14     comes closest to the truth.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, the closest thing to the

16     truth is that they were saying to us, Don't worry, everything is

17     organised.  Don't worry, wait for the JNA.  There is the federal state.

18     Bosnia is not going to be recognised as an independent state, and

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So, therefore, it was -- yes, the second version,

22     therefore, is closer to the truth.  You got the impression that when you

23     were sent to report to Arkan and when you had this very brief

24     conversation, that matters had been arranged already and that you didn't

25     have to bother about it; is that correctly understood?

Page 9825

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, that is the way it was,

 2     roughly.  Well, we wouldn't have gone to get him and to ask him to come

 3     if we had known that he would be coming.

 4             Also, there's another thing.  Different communities in Bosnia

 5     fared on the basis of the organisation they actually had.  Some fared

 6     better, others fared worse.  I don't know how to explain this to you.

 7             Our arrangement was aimed at preserving the former state,

 8     Yugoslavia.  We believed that the JNA and the federal SUP would lead the

 9     effort.  At that time, a colonel general headed the federal Ministry of

10     the Interior, Petar Gracanin.  We believed that that situation would be

11     resolved.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We're now going into details I, at least, did not

13     ask for.

14             Mr. Jordash, I'm looking at the clock.  We're well beyond

15     75 minutes.  As far as your assessment is concerned, the time?

16             MR. JORDASH:  If I could have another 30 minutes, that would

17     be --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Another 30 minutes.

19             Yes.  I'm not informed about any arrangements -- travel

20     arrangements made or whether that matter has been resolved or not.  I

21     don't know whether you have.

22             MR. JORDASH:  I've been informed that, unfortunately, because of

23     the adverse weather condition, the usual indirect flights are not flying.

24     So apart from a 1.00 flight, which is direct, I'm afraid the witness is a

25     bit stuck.

Page 9826

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  It's the snow, rather, at this moment than the

 2     Tribunal.

 3             We have a break, and we'll resume at 10 minutes to 11.  And then

 4     you have another 30 minutes, Mr. Jordash.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Before I allow you to continue, Mr. Jordash:

 8     Yesterday, you'll find on the record that the status of D157 was changed

 9     into public.  That is a mistake.  It was about D158.  That was the one

10     which was provisionally admitted confidentially, and that's the document,

11     D158, which then changed its status.

12             This being corrected, you may proceed, Mr. Jordash.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   I just want to pick up very quickly, Mr. Witness, on the issue of

15     Arkan and any plan.

16             Now, you've told us about Arkan turning up with federal MUP

17     plates.  Was there an assumption at the time on that basis, amongst you

18     and other members of the authorities in Zvornik, that Arkan had been sent

19     by authorities in the federal MUP?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Was the federal minister of interior Petar Gracanin at that

22     moment in time?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Did you hear also around that time that Petar Gracanin had

25     contacted Mico Stanisic, minister of interior of Republika Srpska,

Page 9827

 1     offering the federal MUP's assistance in East Bosnia?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Did you hear about Gracanin sending a different federal MUP unit

 4     to Sarajevo, commanded by Chief -- commanded by Mico Davidovic?

 5        A.   Yes, I know Mico Davidovic.  He is from Bijeljina.

 6        Q.   Do you know if he was sent by Gracanin to command a federal MUP

 7     unit in Sarajevo in and around the time of April 1992?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Was Gracanin's name mentioned ever in relation to Arkan's arrival

10     in Zvornik, or Bijeljina, for that matter?

11        A.   No.  They just mentioned the federal SUP, but no one asked who

12     the minister was at the time and who was the federal SUP.

13        Q.   Okay.  I'll leave the matter there.

14             Now, just dealing with, I think, two last subjects:  One, JNA

15     participation in the attack on Zvornik, and then I want to deal with

16     Stanisic after that.

17             Am I correct that immediately prior to the clash in Zvornik on

18     the 8th, there was a meeting in Hotel Jezero involving Marko Pavlovic and

19     members of the JNA?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And the meeting involved General Savo Jankovic, commander of the

22     Tuzla Corps, and various officers, including Tacic?

23        A.   Yes, yes, Tacic.

24        Q.   Do you know what was discussed at that meeting immediately prior

25     to the attack?

Page 9828

 1        A.   Well, what was discussed was resolving the situation in Zvornik

 2     that was being held by the Muslims, and what was discussed was how to get

 3     it back.

 4        Q.   How to get what back?

 5        A.   I mean, how to restore Serb authority in Zvornik.  It was the SDS

 6     and the SDA that were in a coalition at the time, actually, so we had

 7     been in government together.  And then they took over, and then we Serbs

 8     organised ourselves and took over from them.

 9        Q.   So this was ostensibly a meeting about the military take-over of

10     Zvornik?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Now, I want to refer, Your Honours, to 101694.

13     Please, could we have that in e-court.  It's an excerpt from a

14     Prosecution expert report in the Perisic case.  It's the Butler report,

15     1D1695.  Sorry, I gave you the wrong code.  And it's page 161 of e-court.

16     Page 6 of the actual report, but I think if we focus on 161 in e-court.

17        Q.   I don't think you're going to be able to read this,

18     unfortunately, Mr. Witness, but I'll read it to you.

19             Paragraph 1.3 there, Mr. Butler's expert opinion is as follows:

20             "With respect to the town of Zvornik, the conflict erupted in the

21     early evening hours of 8th of April, 1992, when elements of the JNA

22     336th Motorised Brigade, Arkan's Serbian Volunteer Guards, and local

23     SDS-backed TO units seized control of the predominantly Muslim-populated

24     town."

25             Do you disagree with anything in that sentence, Mr. Witness?

Page 9829

 1     I can read it to you again, if you need me to.

 2        A.   I agree.  I heard it.

 3        Q.   That these three elements took part in the conflict on the

 4     8th of April, 1992; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And then the next sentence reads:

 7             "This attack was preceded by an ultimatum issued several hours

 8     earlier to Zvornik SDA representatives at the Hotel Jezero in

 9     Mali Zvornik."

10             Do you agree with that?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And then moving to the next page:

13             "As reflected in a message sent by SDA representative

14     Izet Mehinagic to both General-Major Savo Jankovic, the JNA 17th Corps

15     commander, and Colonel-General Kukanjac, the commander of the

16     2nd Military District, Arkan and local SDS officials demanded the

17     surrender of the town."

18             Do you know anything about that?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Do you confirm this expert opinion?

21        A.   Yes.  I was present when Arkan called Osman Mustafic, the chief

22     of police, and told him as much.  And then in Hotel Jezero, he slapped

23     about some individuals who were present there in order to intimidate the

24     head of the municipality, who was a Muslim.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the name.

Page 9830

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] ... and another individual who was

 2     also a Muslim whose name I now forgot.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness repeat the first name of the

 4     Muslim?  The interpreters did not catch it.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The president of the municipality

 6     of Zvornik, Abdulah Pasic.

 7             MR. JORDASH:

 8        Q.   And the paragraph goes on to say:

 9             "Also noted present at this meeting was JNA Captain

10     Dragan Obrenovic, then commanding a battalion of the 336th Motorised

11     Brigade garrisoned in and around Zvornik."

12             Is that also correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have, please, on the screen 1D1700.  This

15     is a witness who testified in the Seselj case in open conditions, a man

16     called Asim Delic.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, I take it that you're following the

18     usual procedure that if a witness -- if the statement or testimony of

19     another witness is put to this witness, that you first ask questions

20     about what he knows about it; only then.  But it may be that it's a

21     matter already dealt with.  I do not know, but I just remind you of the

22     good practice in this court.

23             MR. JORDASH:

24        Q.   Before I ask you, then, about this testimony, I want to take you

25     just immediately before the take-over of Zvornik.

Page 9831

 1             Are you aware of events concerning a clash between JNA personnel

 2     and Muslim military troops in Sapna?

 3        A.   Yes.  I worked in the police at the time, so I know the event.

 4     There was a JNA column passing through that town, and it was attacked,

 5     and I think four soldiers were killed and a number wounded.

 6        Q.   Who was it attacked by?

 7        A.   It was attacked by the Muslim population.  I think that by the

 8     time, these were already Green Berets, the formations that they had

 9     organised already.

10        Q.   And is it correct that this was, effectively, an ambush on the

11     JNA?

12        A.   In a certain sense, yes, as an ambush.

13        Q.   And when did this happen in relation to the 8th of --

14        A.   I think it was on the 4th or the 5th of May.  I'm sorry, 4th or

15     the 5th of April, 1992.

16        Q.   And in the first place, is it correct that the news that came out

17     of this attack was that four or five JNA soldiers had gone missing?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And was there a demand for their return?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Who made the demand?

22        A.   The JNA.

23        Q.   Do you know specifically who?

24        A.   I'm not sure.  I think it was the then Captain Obrenovic.

25        Q.   Was there a threat accompanying that demand?

Page 9832

 1        A.   Yes, that Zvornik would be razed to the ground unless they

 2     returned.

 3        Q.   Were they returned?

 4        A.   Well, some of it that was captured was returned, but I think

 5     there were four soldiers --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness repeat the end of his answer.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the last part of your

 8     answer.  You said:

 9             "Some of it that was captured was returned, but I think that

10     there were four soldiers ..."

11             And what did you then say?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were several soldiers that

13     were taken prisoner, and they returned.  But I think four of them were

14     killed in Sapna.  Among them was an officer.  I know that for a fact.

15             MR. JORDASH:

16        Q.   Was there then a further demand about the return of the weapons

17     that had been taken during the attack?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Did that have anything to do with Colonel Tacic?

20        A.   Yes, Dragan Obrenovic was in Colonel Tacic's unit, but we had no

21     more contacts with Obrenovic anymore, though he was closer to us.  But

22     Tacic was his superior.

23        Q.   So did Tacic then take control or take command of this particular

24     issue, i.e., the return of the weapons?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9833

 1        Q.   Did Colonel Tacic make any further threats concerning the return

 2     of the weapons?

 3        A.   Well, after the conflict, it was obvious that there were serious

 4     threats and that a serious conflict was to follow.  Then, what followed

 5     was the official recognition of Bosnia-Herzegovina by the United Nations,

 6     and that was when all the complications started.

 7        Q.   Right.  So within -- is this right?  Within a day or two of Tacic

 8     making the threat, the attack on Zvornik started involving the three

 9     entities we saw in the report?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now, just to complete this:  Did Arkan leave Zvornik as a result

12     of anything that Colonel Tacic did?  This is after the attack on Zvornik.

13        A.   I heard about it subsequently.  At the time, I did not have any

14     personal knowledge.  I heard that there was a conflict between them, that

15     they clashed, and that this was the reason why Arkan left.  But I did not

16     have any direct knowledge of it at the time.

17        Q.   What were you told subsequently about the clash and why and how

18     Arkan left?

19        A.   Arkan was arrogant with the officers.  I think that there was

20     slapping about, a tussle.  I don't know what the reasons were, really.

21        Q.   Okay.  But is it suffice to say that Colonel Tacic ordered Arkan

22     to leave, and Arkan obeyed?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now, picking up on a few smaller subjects:  Is it correct that it

25     was well known, during the attack on Zvornik, that Arkan's Men were in

Page 9834

 1     conflict with the SRS men?

 2        A.   I believe so, yes.

 3        Q.   What makes you believe that?

 4        A.   Well, simply, Arkan wanted those various groups to be under his

 5     control, and he wanted all those volunteer units to be under him, and

 6     I think that they resisted it.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know anything about Dragan and his training

 8     centre, Captain Dragan?

 9        A.   Yes.  I heard that he had a guest appearance on Radio Zvornik.

10     It happened sometime after my departure from the police in May of 1992.

11        Q.   Did you hear about his comments concerning having the support of

12     Karadzic and ministers of the RS, Republika Srpska?

13        A.   To the best of my knowledge, he was brought over there as an

14     instructor.  He gathered individuals from volunteer units and some locals

15     and tried to carry out some sort of training with these men who

16     apparently did not have any war experience.  He was there in the capacity

17     of an instructor.  He didn't have any units of his own.  I think that he

18     was engaged by those from the Ministry of the Interior of

19     Republika Srpska to train people.

20        Q.   Thank you.  A different subject.

21             You know about Vaso Mijovic being accommodated in Bratunac; is

22     that correct?

23        A.   I know that Vaso Mijovic was stationed in Bratunac.  He also had

24     a group of locals with him.  There was some sort of clash with the local

25     authorities in Bratunac, so those from the MUP of Republika Srpska

Page 9835

 1     dispatched him there as an instructor.  I know that he was also slapping

 2     about the president of the municipality and of the Executive Board.  I

 3     went on a private visit to see him, and I brought him some cigarettes.

 4        Q.   Was it well known, before he arrived, that there was chaos in

 5     Bratunac?

 6        A.   Yes.  There was incredible chaos in Bratunac on all levels, so he

 7     put together a unit that was billeted in the daycare centre -- in the

 8     kindergarten in Bratunac, and he seemingly did introduce some order to it

 9     all.

10        Q.   When you say "order," what kind of order did he introduce?

11        A.   There was plunder, harassment of the Muslim population, all sorts

12     of criminal acts.  The police was feeble, because there was only 10 to

13     15 Serbian policemen, so he put together a group of locals whom he

14     trained, to a certain extent, and who then tried to restore law and

15     order, as far as the war circumstances would permit.

16        Q.   And what happened to him after he'd done that?

17        A.   Later on, I saw him once or twice in private contacts.  He went

18     to Montenegro.  I know that he hailed from Bratunac.  He married a doctor

19     who worked in Bratunac.

20        Q.   So he had no problem in -- let me rephrase that.  Did he return

21     then to live in Bratunac?

22        A.   I don't know exactly.  He left there for a while, but then he

23     moved to Montenegro.  So I'm not sure how much time he spent in Bratunac.

24     I know for a fact that he -- his wife was from Bratunac, that he married

25     there, and it was along those lines that he had frequent contacts with

Page 9836

 1     Bratunac.

 2        Q.   So frequent -- post his introducing some order to the place, he

 3     remained at times and had frequent contacts with civilians there?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

 6             Could we have, please, on e-court 65 ter 4800.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, in eight minutes from now you will have

 8     used thirty-five minutes.  Please proceed.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, I'm almost there.

10        Q.   This is an -- as you can see, a Ministry of Interior of Bosnia

11     and Herzegovina, Security Services Centre, Bijeljina, 25th of June, 1992,

12     request for equipment to the TO of Serbia.  And it notes:

13             "The Zvornik Public Security Station, with an active and reserve

14     complement currently numbering around 500.  When equipping our members,

15     we were helped by the Republican Ministry of the Interior of the Republic

16     of Serbia, which provided both quarter-master supplies and technical

17     equipment.  Since they do not have some of the police equipment, we would

18     like to ask and request that you assist in finding equipment and send us,

19     if you are able, the following -- able to, the following supplies and

20     equipment:"

21             And then there's a list:

22             "Armoured combat vehicle.

23             "7.62-millimetre or 7.65-millimetre pistol."

24             And then over the page:

25             "A silencer for sniper and AP/automatic rifle."

Page 9837

 1             Are you able to confirm that there was limited supplies provided

 2     by the MUP of Serbia to assist the police stations in Zvornik, and it

 3     didn't include this type of military hardware?

 4        A.   When we split as the Serbian police station in Zvornik, and let

 5     me note that still we were a joint state, Yugoslavia, the colleagues from

 6     adjacent police stations helped us, as far as they could, though they

 7     didn't have much to share.  We would receive a couple of uniforms,

 8     perhaps.  But as for the armoured vehicles, the police station in Zvornik

 9     never had those, either before the war or even today.

10             MR. JORDASH:  Can I apply to tender this as an exhibit, please,

11     MFI'd if Mr. Groome has objections?

12             MR. GROOME:  We ask that this be MFI'd, Your Honour, at this

13     time.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?

15             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be D163, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  D163 is marked for identification.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             One very quick last issue.

19        Q.   In your statement of 2008, you say, at paragraph 91 - I'll try to

20     short-cut things - that you were told by Branko Grujic that he had met at

21     least once with Jovica Stanisic in a restaurant in Mali Zvornik named

22     Planina just before the conflict started.  Do you remember that comment?

23        A.   Well, I said that's my personal knowledge.  Was the intention of

24     Branko Grujic to impress anyone, did he meet with anyone, I don't know.

25     He never told me.

Page 9838

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have on the screen 1D1694, which was an

 2     interview with Grujic by the Prosecution.  And let's go to page 5 of

 3     e-court.  There isn't, I'm afraid, a B/C/S translation.

 4             We go to the bottom of the page.  The Prosecution ask Grujic:

 5             "Was the DB in Serbia involved in supplying weapons to the Serbs

 6     in the municipality of Zvornik?"

 7             Over the page:

 8             "Not that I know of.

 9             "Q.  What about the MUP of Serbia, in general.

10             "A.  To the best of my knowledge, nobody interfered.  It's

11     possible that they did it through some other lines, but not that I know

12     of."

13             And if we go over the page to page 7 in e-court:

14             "Did you meet with any officials from the Serbian DB?

15             "A.  I only briefly -- I only met briefly Mr. Jovica Stanisic,

16     then head of the DB, but it was a rather -- very brief encounter, rather

17     than a meeting.  And it was later on in 1993, prior to the war, we never

18     met, and it was when the pilots actually hijacked in Pale and when they

19     were supposed to be handed over to the Serb authorities in Serbia.  So he

20     was waiting for those pilots to take them over, and this is how we met

21     unofficially at Jezero Hotel."

22        Q.   Could it be that that's what Grujic told you?

23        A.   It's quite possible.  Hotel Jezero and Restaurant Planina are

24     50 metres apart, so it's quite possible that I mixed them up and that

25     this was the case.

Page 9839

 1             MR. JORDASH:  I've got nothing further.  Thank you, Mr. Witness.

 2     Thank you, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jordash.

 4             Mr. Groome, are you ready to re-examine the witness?

 5             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6                           Re-examination by Mr. Groome:

 7        Q.   JF-026, you provided the Chamber with a letter you sent to the

 8     VWS.  One of the issues you raised in that letter was a request for

 9     documentation related to the United States or to the European Union.  Did

10     you request this documentation because you believed your co-operation

11     with the ICTY entitled you to it or because of security concerns, the

12     concerns you expressed at the start of your testimony?

13        A.   I requested that because of the position of my family and myself

14     in the community where I live.  I don't know whether you can understand

15     this, but to live in Serbia as a witness who testified in The Hague is

16     practically impossible; if you want to have a normal life, that is.

17        Q.   So can I take from your answer that had you been given such

18     documentation, it was your intention to move from where you now reside?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just check?  We have no official translation

20     of the letter --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- whether it is about documentation or because the

23     provisional translation I received, and I just read the last -- and,

24     again, this is not an official translation, reads:

25             "I am kindly asking you to consider the possibility if you could

Page 9840

 1     please arrange that my family and I receive citizenship of one of the

 2     European Union states or that of the United States of America," which

 3     goes beyond documentation.

 4             I see Mr. Petrovic is nodding.  Is that what you wanted to raise

 5     as well, Mr. --

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Nowhere here is

 7     any documentation mentioned in this letter.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Apparently, therefore, we have no official

 9     translation.  The request was not, as I understand, about documentation,

10     but about assistance -- arranging for receiving citizenship.

11             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   JF-026, if you had been granted citizenship in either an

13     EU country or the US, was it your intention to move with your family from

14     where you now live?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And could I ask you to tell us, the business that you've

17     described in passing, can you give us some sense of the number of

18     businesses that you own?

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9841

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5        Q.   So should we take, from the fact that you contemplated leaving

 6     that behind and moving to another country because of your concerns, as a

 7     reflection of the gravity or the seriousness which you consider these

 8     concerns?

 9        A.   Well, I wouldn't leave that capital.  I would sell everything and

10     transfer it there.  That was my intention.  But I'm telling you, being a

11     witness in five trials and going on living there, that is impossible.

12     Now, how do I describe this?  I'm telling you --

13        Q.   Thank you.  You've answered my question.

14             Now, at several points in your evidence here, you have clarified

15     your previous use of the phrase "Serbian State Security Services" and

16     said that you mention "Serbian Security Services," and we can see the

17     most recent instance of this on today's transcript at page 7.  I want to

18     ask you some detailed questions about the organisation you referred to as

19     Serbian Security Services.  The first is:  Do you know what ministry of

20     the Serbian Government this organisation was within?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, allow me to clarify.

23     This does not have to do with clarification --

24             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'd prefer if the witness could

25     clarify --

Page 9842

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I do not know if there's any problem with the

 2     question as put by Mr. Groome.  One second --

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] There is.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  There is, okay.  One second.

 5             Could you take your earphones off for a second, Witness JF-026.

 6             Mr. Petrovic.

 7             MR. PETROVIC:  Your Honour, this is not the issue of

 8     translation -- this is not the issue of clarification.  This is the issue

 9     of translation.

10             Please take a look at paragraph 32 of his statement, because that

11     is the paragraph which was corrected or clarified this morning and

12     yesterday.  The Serbian version, which was read and signed by the

13     witness, says different from the English translation.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us what it, then, in your view, says,

15     because the witness has corrected several times.  We have, in

16     paragraph 32, "Serbian State Security," we have in paragraph 37 "State

17     Security Service," and what is -- I think, as a matter of fact, that

18     where the witness has explained that the reference to the Serbian

19     State Security is incorrect and that it should be understood as "State

20     Security Services," that Mr. Groome at this moment is exploring what

21     organisation -- or what, actually, the witness referred to when he talks

22     about "State Security Services."

23             Now, what is wrong in the basis of that question?

24             MR. PETROVIC:  Your Honour, the problem is that he didn't correct

25     anything.  This was the translation issue.

Page 9843

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay --

 2             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Fine.  Then if we then -- perhaps, could you tell

 4     me, because I haven't got the original, what does it say in his own

 5     language?

 6             MR. PETROVIC:  In his language, it reads "Serbian Security

 7     Services," which differs from "Serbian State Security," as you have in

 8     English translation.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that's the same in both 32 and -- well, in

10     37, the word "Serbian" doesn't appear, so you would like -- no, 32.

11             MR. PETROVIC:  32, that relates only to paragraph 32.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  And you say it's "Serbian Security Services"?

13             MR. PETROVIC:  Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Now, the interpreters have most likely found

15     the proper wording of translating that.  If you would carefully listen,

16     Mr. Petrovic, that if Mr. Groome uses the words "Serbian Security

17     Services," because I take it, Mr. Groome, that's what you are asking

18     about --

19             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  I'm happy to discuss translation

20     issues outside of court.  It's really -- I just want to get this

21     witness's understanding of that term that he's used several times.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I see that point.

23             Mr. Petrovic will carefully listen whether these -- if used in

24     English, "Serbian Security Services," whether the way in which that is

25     translated is the same as what you find in the original B/C/S version of

Page 9844

 1     the statement.

 2             MR. PETROVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Everyone happy?

 4             Please proceed, Mr. Groome.  And let me just see the -- yes,

 5     please proceed.

 6             MR. GROOME:

 7        Q.   JF-026, I want to understand what it is you're referring to when

 8     you use the phrase "Serbian Security Services."  And my first question in

 9     this regard is:  Do you know what ministry of the Serbian Government this

10     organisation was within?

11        A.   Well, there are several of them.  There is the Military Security

12     that is under the Ministry of Defence.  Then there is State Security that

13     is within the Ministry of the Interior.  Then there is that security that

14     is within the Foreign Ministry.

15        Q.   So if I can be clear, there are three possibilities in your mind:

16     A security service within the military --

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   -- one with the Foreign Service or Ministry of Foreign Affairs,

19     and one within the Serbian State Security or the Serbian Ministry of

20     Interior; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes, it is those three that I have in mind.

22        Q.   Now, up until very recently, if I'm not mistaken, the Socialist

23     Federal Republic of FRY went from that to the Federal Republic of

24     Yugoslavia, to Serbia and Montenegro.  It is really relatively recently

25     that Serbia is standing alone as an independent country; is that correct?

Page 9845

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Can you explain to us why it was you used or you conceive of the

 3     term "Serbian Security Services" as an organisation that could fall

 4     within the federal government of the Socialist Federal Republic of

 5     Yugoslavia?

 6        A.   Well, you're a professional, you pay attention to every little

 7     detail.  As far as I'm concerned, there's the Drina, and on the other

 8     side, there's Serbia.  Sometimes I say "Serb," sometimes I say

 9     "Yugoslav."  But if we were to speak properly, all the way up to 1992 or

10     1993, or I don't know, 2000, it would be the Yugoslav services.  And from

11     2000 onwards, the Serb services.  However, in my mind, it is the Drina,

12     and on the other bank is Serbia.  I didn't really pay attention to these

13     details.  I said, correctly, "Serbian Services -- Security Services," but

14     if we are talking about the possibility of arming on the other side of

15     the Drina.  However, the right phrase for me to use would be "Yugoslav

16     services," because it was the JNA at the time, there was the weaponry,

17     the troops.

18        Q.   Now, where was the office of the Crisis Staff in Zvornik?

19        A.   The office of the Crisis Staff in Zvornik was in the so-called

20     Russian building, Ruska Zgrada.  On the ground floor, there was an

21     office.  That was the office of the SDS, the Serb Democratic Party.

22     Because we were a new political party and the municipality gave us some

23     offices to use, and we had our office in that Russian building on the

24     ground floor.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Perhaps we can get you on your way back home quicker

Page 9846

 1     if you limit your answers to the specific information I'm asking.

 2             Can I ask you to tell us, what was the Alhos factory, and were

 3     meetings of the Crisis Staff held there?

 4        A.   Yes, now we are speaking about time-limits.  We moved out to

 5     Karakaj.  This Alhos is in Zvornik, and the Crisis Staff had its

 6     headquarters in Alhos.  It is a textile factory in Karakaj.

 7        Q.   Since time is important:  During what period did the Crisis Staff

 8     have its headquarters in the Alhos factory?

 9        A.   Let's say from the 5th or 6th of April onwards, April and May.

10             MR. GROOME:  Now, could I ask that P1380, marked for

11     identification, be called to our screens.

12        Q.   While that is being done, sir:  Mr. Jordash showed you an expert

13     report by Mr. Butler, in which he put to you a number of the facts

14     asserted in that report, and you gave evidence that you believed them to

15     be correct.  One of the facts recorded -- or referred to a letter by

16     Izet Mehinagic, and that is what I'm asking to be called to the screen

17     before us.

18             I ask that we focus on the second paragraph.

19             Now, in the beginning of the second paragraph, the author writes:

20             "Zvornik was given an offer to lay down its arms and the

21     Crisis Staff of the Zvornik SO will make a decision on the ultimatum at

22     1600 hours."

23             My question to you is:  Is this the same ultimatum which you've

24     given evidence about a few minutes ago?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9847

 1        Q.   Now, let's -- I want to continue reading on.  The author writes:

 2             "I do not think that the ultimatum will be accepted, and that

 3     this will lead to an unprecedented massacre of the unprotected and

 4     innocent population and to horrible environmental consequences as a

 5     result of suicidal action by the desperate population.  I send you this

 6     dispatch as a cry to heaven and an appeal to you to act in line with the

 7     most illustrious traditions of the JNA and the most sacred moral norms of

 8     our peoples and to protect the endangered population from a catastrophe

 9     such as they have never experienced in their history."

10             Now, this author makes a specific request of the JNA,

11     General Jankovic, and it's found in the last line of this same paragraph.

12     He says:

13             "The only solution is to deploy your units from the zone in which

14     they now find themselves together with the forces threatening the

15     population and station them at the approaches to the town, where they

16     will defend the endangered population from the oppressors."

17             My question to you is:  Do you know if General Jankovic ever

18     re-deployed his troops to prevent Serb volunteers from entering the town

19     and doing what they did?

20        A.   No, the JNA entered town together with the volunteers.  You see

21     this paragraph down here, that the town remain a Yugoslav town.  That was

22     the core of the matter, Yugoslav.

23        Q.   Now, yesterday, at transcript page 41, you had the following

24     exchange with Mr. Petrovic:

25             "As far as you're aware, Arkan's Men acted as part of the JNA, in

Page 9848

 1     other words, part of the Armed Forces of the SFRY during this period that

 2     we're referring to, 1992; isn't that right?"

 3             Your answer:  "Yes."

 4             My question is:  If during that time it was your belief that

 5     Arkan was acting as part of the JNA, can you tell us why it was that you

 6     discussed the possibility of Arkan coming to Zvornik with Rade Kostic,

 7     who you have heard here today the Defence now admits was a State Security

 8     operative, rather than speaking with General Svetozar Andric, who you

 9     described yesterday as your contact in the JNA and who had provided

10     roughly 90 per cent of the weapons distributed to local Serbs?

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that the

12     witness's testimony is being presented incorrectly.  The witness did not

13     only talk to Radoslav Kostic.  Today, he said that he talked to tens of

14     persons, so it is an incorrect quote.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, it's not an incorrect quote.  It

16     quotes part of what the witness said.  And the question, apparently, is

17     focused on that.  Therefore, your intervention was not an accurate one.

18     Mr. Groome started asking about the other 49 -- Mr. Groome is asking

19     about that one, although I tend to agree with you that if we have not

20     identified the other 49, that we do not know who they are, so that -- but

21     that's something the witness might raise or not raise.

22             MR. GROOME:  I'll ask to clarify that, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please do so.

24             MR. GROOME:

25        Q.   JF-026, did you have a conversation with General Andric about the

Page 9849

 1     possibility of Arkan coming to Zvornik?

 2        A.   You see, Mr. Prosecutor, there is a problem there.  We did not

 3     know Svetozar Andric at the time at all.  Everything seems to be confused

 4     here, the entire picture from 1992 to 1995.  Svetozar Andric was not in

 5     Zvornik at the time at all.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  The question, simply, was whether you spoke with

 7     him.  Now, the answer, if you didn't know at the time, the answer simply

 8     is, "No," isn't it?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  If you don't know someone, you can't have a

11     conversation with him.  So, therefore, if you would have just said, "No,"

12     that would have answered the question.

13             Please proceed, Mr. Groome.

14             MR. GROOME:

15        Q.   Now, at transcript page 36 today, you said, quote, and this is in

16     reference to the relationship with the JNA:

17             "Arkan was arrogant with the officers.  I think that there was

18     slapping about."

19             Can you give us your understanding of how this person, who you

20     believed to be part of the JNA, was able to slap about officers in the

21     JNA?

22        A.   Well, those of a lower rank, and they complained to their

23     superiors.  In this way, he also wanted to attain the greatest possible

24     authority among them.  Believe me, the way most of them -- they

25     behaved -- the way most of them behaved at the beginning of the war made

Page 9850

 1     it a well-deserved thing to have them slapped.

 2        Q.   I'd like to now change the subject.  I want to discuss payments

 3     made to paramilitaries and volunteers.

 4             I want to remind you of an exchange between yourself and

 5     Mr. Petrovic yesterday.  This is from transcript page 14:

 6             "Q.  My question is whether the volunteer units, including Zuca's

 7     unit in the territory of the municipality of Zvornik at the time, were

 8     financed by the provisional municipal authorities in Zvornik?

 9             "A.  Yes."

10             My first question is:  Do you recall personal knowledge of this

11     fact that the paramilitaries and volunteers were paid by the provisional

12     municipal authorities in Zvornik?

13        A.   Yes, I have direct knowledge of them receiving salaries from the

14     provisional municipal authorities in Zvornik.

15        Q.   Would these volunteers have been paid up until the time of their

16     arrest in June of 1992?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Were they paid after their arrest?

19        A.   Those who stayed on in the army, most of them were returned to

20     regular units after the arrest, and they received salaries.

21        Q.   Was that salary provided by the Crisis Staff?

22        A.   Well, this is a time-period when there was no Crisis Staff any

23     longer, but there was the provisional government as the successor of the

24     Crisis Staff, and that government provided the salaries.

25        Q.   Now, the person you have described as Jekic, was he part of the

Page 9851

 1     police detail that organised the arrest of the paramilitaries in June of

 2     1992?

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, objection.  Leading.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, let me just have a look at it.

 5             MR. GROOME:  I can rephrase, Your Honour, but --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  If you're willing to do so, please do.

 7             MR. GROOME:

 8        Q.   JF-026, what, if any, part did Mr. Jekic play in the arrest of

 9     the paramilitaries and volunteers in June of 1992?

10        A.   Well, I don't think that he played any kind of role.  He was a

11     scumbag who went around falsely representing himself, cheating people out

12     of their money, and seeking personal promotion.

13        Q.   Now, on cross-examination in the first case, you were asked about

14     duration of the fighting in Zvornik, and I will read the following

15     question and answer to refresh your recollection.  And I'm reading from

16   (redacted)

17             "Could you tell me, please, how long that battle for Zvornik

18     lasted?"

19             And your answer was:

20             "The actual attack on Zvornik lasted from about 4.00 a.m. until

21     8.00 a.m., so about four hours."

22             Was the center of the town under Serb control by 8.00 a.m. on the

23     same morning, the 8th of April, the day the attack began?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now, on the next page of that transcript, you were asked about

Page 9852

 1     the number of Serb combatants who were killed, and you stated:

 2             "I do not have precise records, but I think the Serbs had three

 3     or four dead."

 4             Do you affirm that number?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   With respect to the number of Muslim combatants, you said:

 7             "According to what the Civil Defence said later on, I think about

 8     20 persons were buried, whose bodies were found there after the battle."

 9             Do you affirm that number?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   So are we correct to conclude from your evidence that during the

12     initial taking of control of Zvornik by Serb forces, there were

13     approximately 24 combatants killed over the course of approximately

14     four hours?

15        A.   Yes, that is my assessment.

16        Q.   Can you please clarify the following.  After taking control of

17     the town on the morning of 8th of April, 1992, and up until their arrest

18     in June of 1992, what function did these paramilitaries and volunteers

19     perform that justified them being paid by municipal authorities?

20        A.   In that period of time, they were all mobilised.  The army

21     deployed them.  Part of them came from a Loznica group and from the

22     reserve police force in Zvornik, but very soon they organised themselves

23     in the following way:  They became the main people in town after Arkan

24     and his group left, so they became very arrogant and powerful.  They

25     arrested people, including the president of the municipality, Grujic.  I

Page 9853

 1     know that they arrested even ministers who were going to Belgrade and

 2     passing through there.  I know that they arrested the minister of

 3     information, Ostojic, and that is why they were arrested and accounts

 4     were settled with them.

 5        Q.   Well, in addition to these misdeeds that you're describing now,

 6     Mr. Jordash tendered a report about Zuca's unit after you confirmed the

 7     events described in it.  It has been marked for identification as D159.

 8     You testified you were aware of the murder described in the document, in

 9     which a knife was thrust into Dr. Vidovic's spine because he sold medical

10     supplies to Muslims.  You also recognised the events described in a

11     statement of Dusko Vuckovic, marked for identification as D160, in which

12     he describes killing men and women civilians.  Vuckovic goes on in the

13     statement to describe how he questioned Muslim detainees by cutting a

14     man's ear off and nailing it to the wall of the Alhos factory.

15             Can you explain to us:  Why did the Crisis Staff continue to pay

16     these men when they were doing things such as you've described and as

17     described in these documents?

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20     assumption was that by then, they were already stronger than the

21     Crisis Staff, they had a stronger group.  The official proposal at the

22     Assembly of -- the Municipal Assembly of Zvornik was that Zvornik should

23     be called "Zucin grad," "Zuca's town."  This was an official proposal in

24     May 1992, so you can imagine what things were like.

25        Q.   Now I want to change topics a bit --

Page 9854

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, I'm also looking at the clock.  You

 2     asked for half an hour.  Now, I gave a bit extra to Mr. Jordash, so I

 3     would not -- without being over-generous, I'll give you a little bit more

 4     as well.  But how much time would you still need?

 5             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I meant to intervene after this

 6     morning's events.  I think I have a bit more to do.  I don't think it's

 7     substantially that much, but I would imagine I have at least 20 minutes

 8     left, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  As matters stand now, will there be any need to put

10     further questions to the witness, in view of what Mr. Groome has --

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] At this point, no, Your Honour.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber has not granted yet the 20 minutes, but

14     invites you to continue, and is seeking further information at this

15     moment on other matters which might influence our decision.

16             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'll move as hastily as

17     I can.

18        Q.   JF-026, can I ask you to keep your answers as brief as possible,

19     and in this way, hopefully, we can conclude your evidence here today.

20             Do I understand your evidence over the last few days to be, in

21     general terms, that you feared the possibility of being indicted by this

22     Tribunal --

23             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, objection.  It's highly leading.

24             MR. GROOME:  Could I perhaps finish, and --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you may finish the question, and the witness

Page 9855

 1     should wait to answer it until I have ruled on the objection.

 2             MR. GROOME:

 3        Q.   Do I understand your evidence over the last few days to be, in

 4     general terms, that you feared the possibility of being indicted by this

 5     Tribunal, and this fear may have affected the information you provided?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Does the objection stand?

 7             MR. JORDASH:  The objection does stand.  It is leading, and

 8     Mr. Groome is trying to impeach his own witness.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, these are two -- of course, impeaching --

10     impeachment often results in then asking permission to ask leading

11     questions.

12             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'm simply summarising the evidence

13     that I believe is now before us.  If I've incorrectly characterised it or

14     summarised it, I'm happy to -- for Mr. Jordash to suggest the question.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  No.

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if his evidence so

17     far is presented correctly, it did not have to do only with the

18     indictment being issued against him before this Tribunal.  I think he did

19     present some other fears.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's not discuss this in the presence of the

21     witness.

22             Let me see whether I can phrase your question in such a way that

23     it would meet both your need to find an answer on the question you had on

24     your mind, Mr. Groome, and which would also meet the concerns of the

25     Defence teams.

Page 9856

 1             Witness JF-026, in your earlier evidence you referred to

 2     accommodating -- that is, to give answers which might be welcomed by

 3     those who interviewed you.  Did you have any fear that other answers

 4     might have a negative impact on you?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, I would be unfair if I said

 6     that I didn't fear for my fate.  I did, because I am aware of the fact

 7     that I was close to these events, and the criteria as to who would be

 8     accused and who would not were quite peculiar and odd.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, whether they are peculiar or odd or not, did

10     you fear to be indicted at any moment?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  At what moment did you fear to be indicted, and

13     indicted -- being indicted by whom?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was afraid up until the

15     point when it was announced that The Hague would no longer be issuing

16     indictments.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you remember when that was?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that it was announced a

19     year or two ago.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, which would mean that when you gave your

21     testimony in the second case, you had no such fears for certain; is that

22     correctly understood?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, because the indicted, who was a

24     lawyer -- the indicted person, who was a lawyer, explained to me that

25     there would no longer be any indictments coming out.

Page 9857

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  When did he explain that to you?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he told me at a trial

 3     precisely on this subject, and you have it in the transcript.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, although the Chamber doesn't have that

 5     transcript.

 6             Mr. Groome, please proceed.  I do not think that this matter has

 7     been fully explored, so feel free to further explore the matter.

 8             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Now, JF-026, when you refer to this fear, you repeatedly used the

10     term "we," plural, that you were speaking about more than simply

11     yourself.  Now, yesterday Mr. Petrovic asked you the names of the persons

12     you refer to as "we," and you said the following at T-9694:

13             "Those were mostly members of the Crisis Staff in Zvornik; Radic,

14     Grujic, Savic, Ivanovic, and some others who I can't remember at the

15     moment."

16             Now, my question to you is:  Do you know if any of the members of

17     the Crisis Staff you named were, in fact, or provided information as

18     witnesses to the ICTY?

19        A.   I think that all --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter notes that it wasn't quite

21     understandable.

22             MR. GROOME:

23        Q.   Can I ask you to repeat your answer.  The interpreters didn't

24     quite get the entirety of your answer.

25        A.   I think that all the members of the Crisis Staff in Zvornik gave

Page 9858

 1     statements for the purposes of The Hague Tribunal.

 2        Q.   And did you ever have a discussion with the people you named in

 3     which you, quote, "played tactical games"?  Did you ever actually discuss

 4     with these people tactical games or adjusting the evidence?

 5        A.   Let me tell you.  In 1996, officially through the Zvornik Court,

 6     we were told who the persons were who The Hague Tribunal found

 7     interesting and wanted to have interviews with, and these were some

 8     20 people from Zvornik.

 9        Q.   My question is actually quite precise.  What I'm asking is:  Did

10     you ever have a conversation with any of the people that you've named

11     about playing tactical games with investigators from the Tribunal?

12        A.   I don't quite understand what "playing tactical games" means.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You used that expression, more or less, yourself;

14     that is, adjusting the evidence to what one would want to hear.  Did you

15     discuss those matters, that kind of playing games when being interviewed,

16     with any of the persons of the Crisis Staff of Zvornik you named?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, we discussed it amongst

18     ourselves, but it was not candid, the discussion, because our interests

19     are opposed.  Some people got killed, others wanted to downplay their

20     roles, and, of course, it is up to the Prosecutor's Office to establish

21     with whom lies most of the responsibility.

22             MR. GROOME:

23        Q.   Now, after you named members of the Crisis Staff, Mr. Petrovic

24     then asked you about two specific people and whether they were part of

25     this group that was trying to put itself in the OTP's, quote, "good

Page 9859

 1     books."  And the two names he gave you were Goran Zugic and

 2     Vojislav Jekic.

 3             Now, in paragraph 45 of your statement, you describe Goran Zugic

 4     as, quote, "chief of State Security in Tuzla."

 5             My question is:  Was he also a member of the Crisis Staff in

 6     Zvornik?

 7        A.   He was not a member of the Crisis Staff in Zvornik.  Neither was

 8     Vojo Jekic.  We didn't discuss the issue with them.

 9        Q.   So you did not have a conversation with either of these men about

10     adjusting evidence that would be given to ICTY investigators; is that

11     correct?

12        A.   No.  We didn't find them interesting.  They were not members of

13     the Crisis Staff.

14        Q.   Is this same Goran Zugic who went on to become an adviser to

15     Mr. Milo Djukanovic, the president of Montenegro, and who died in 2000?

16        A.   Yes, that was Goran Zugic, who became adviser for internal

17     matters in the Montenegrin government of Djukanovic.

18        Q.   Do you know how he died?

19        A.   He was killed in some sort of a show-down, and to this day, it

20     remains unknown what the circumstances of the event were.  And there was

21     no indictment issued.

22        Q.   Now, the other person was Vojislav Jekic, and you've already told

23     us that you did not discuss this matter with him.  Do you believe that he

24     was a witness who provided information to the ICTY?

25        A.   Well, by happenstance, I saw him here when I was a witness.  He

Page 9860

 1     testified just before me in Case 1.  As I said, the man is dead, and he

 2     was a scum.

 3        Q.   Now, Mr. Petrovic, when he spoke about Mr. Jekic, he said, quote,

 4     and this is at transcript 9696, line 1:

 5             "And what about Vojislav Jekic, the late Vojislav Jekic?"

 6             Were you aware, before Mr. Petrovic used the words "late

 7     Vojislav Jekic," that Mr. Jekic was dead?

 8        A.   Of course.  I know he was killed in another shoot-out outside of

 9     a cafe in Belgrade.  It isn't known who killed him, and to my knowledge,

10     there was no indictment in that case either.

11             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that 65 ter 5874 be called to our

12     screens.  It is a media report issued the day after Mr. Jekic's death.

13        Q.   JF-026, when the document is before you, would you please read

14     it, and tell us whether you recognise the document as a report on what

15     happened to Mr. Jekic.

16             Do you recognise -- is this an accurate depiction of what you

17     recall about the death of Mr. Jekic?

18             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry.  Could I object to the general nature of the

19     question, please.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think the question is superfluous, because

21     it's clear what this is, Mr. Groome, isn't it?  If you have any further

22     questions on the document or if you -- not on the document, in relation

23     to this, fine, but this is a report dated the 28th of April, 2006, and

24     deals with the assassination of the ex-chief of the Loznica police, and

25     names him as Vojislav Jekic.  So, therefore, that seems to be clear,

Page 9861

 1     isn't it, unless there's any hidden message in here.

 2             MR. GROOME:  No, there isn't, Your Honour.

 3             I simply would tender it at this time.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Objection, on the basis of relevance.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, I suggest that -- do we need the witness

 6     to discuss this any further?  Because I'm looking at the clock.  You

 7     asked for 20 minutes.  You've taken now 20 minutes.  I said the Chamber

 8     would allow you to start.  We'll need a break anyhow, because we are

 9     already 10 minutes over the usual 75 minutes.  The Chamber may have some

10     questions as well.  We are less under a time pressure now, I understand,

11     because I was informed, first of all, that the indirect flight which was

12     obstructed by snow, that the snow has melted, or at least that the

13     airport is open again which were to be used, and that if you are at --

14     that your flight departure is a little bit after 5.00.  So, therefore, it

15     seems that the practical problems do not put further pressure upon us.

16             Mr. Groome, 20 minutes ago you said that you would need

17     20 minutes.  How much more would you need?

18             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I count 12 questions, but it's often

19     not easy to --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you -- I mean, the time pressure is gone, to

21     some extent.  I will also be generous if there is any further question by

22     the Defence which -- Mr. Jordash, I -- if there are important matters

23     which you have not raised because of time restraints, then I would be

24     generous, but within the time-limits of today, and also within the

25     time-limits of -- I think we said that we would stop at 1.30 today, and

Page 9862

 1     I'm not going to be blamed again for a late finish by those assisting us.

 2             Mr. Groome, let's be -- would 10 minutes do?

 3             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, there is a portion of the tape of the

 4     original interview of the witness that I'd like to play for him.  I don't

 5     know the precise time, and that's the real -- the unknown.  I think we

 6     may be getting that information now.

 7             That tape, itself, Your Honour, is six minutes and twenty-four

 8     seconds.  I imagine that would push me over 10 minutes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and I do not understand why you were unable to

10     include this in your assessment 20 minutes ago.

11             MR. GROOME:  As you see, Your Honour, I'm just getting the time

12     now.  We had problems with -- the copy that was in the system was

13     unplayable.  We had to re-digitise.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any way that you provide us with the

15     relevant portion of the transcript so that we can read it over the next

16     half an hour or so?

17             MR. GROOME:  I have it here in court, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  If you would take care that the Judges and

19     the Defence will be provided with the relevant portion of the transcript,

20     that might save some time.

21             Yes, Mr. Jordash.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, could I also indicate, for

23     Mr. Groome's purposes, that we also object to the reliability of this

24     document.  So that that could be addressed after the break, with

25     Your Honours' leave.

Page 9863

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you object to the reliability.  Do you object

 2     against it being used or -- I don't know what questions Mr. Groome will

 3     have in relation to it, and, therefore, I'm a bit hesitant to say

 4     anything further about it.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  No, and, Your Honour, I was just indicating for

 6     Mr. Groome to consider that matter so I didn't ambush him with that

 7     objection later.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let me see.

 9             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'm confused.  Are we speaking about

10     the media article or about the transcript from the original interview?

11             MR. JORDASH:  The media article.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The media article?

13             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry for the lack of clarification.  Yes, it's the

14     media article.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The media article.  We have plenty of time, isn't

16     it, to discuss that?

17             At this moment, the Chamber expects to receive the relevant

18     portion of the transcript you'd like to use after the break, and you're

19     invited to limit yourself to 10 minutes.

20             And we'll have a break, and we'll resume at five minutes to 1.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 12.23 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, please proceed.  You may be aware that

24     the witness has been provided with a copy of the transcript as well in

25     his own language.

Page 9864

 1             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  The way I was going to suggest we

 2     proceed in that regard is, after I ask him about it -- was maybe just to

 3     play a few seconds to see if he recognises his own voice and then leave

 4     it for the Chamber to listen to it at another time, if that's acceptable.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is there any -- of course, if there's any

 6     dispute about the audio-recording being a forgery, that if the -- if not,

 7     then, of course, if you have time, please do so, but please proceed.

 8             MR. GROOME:

 9        Q.   JF-026, before I ask you some questions on the portion of your

10     interview -- your first interview, I want to finish up the topic of

11     Mr. Jekic.

12             Now, it's very clear to all of us in the courtroom your feelings

13     for Mr. Jekic, and you've expressed them in very strong terms.  This

14     media report suggests that he was assassinated because he gave testimony

15     before the courts of Serbia and, in that testimony, he identified the

16     State Security Service as having a role in Arkan's murder.

17             Can you give us one concrete -- or a concrete example of what

18     Mr. Jekic did, that you have direct personal knowledge of, that leads you

19     to have such strong feelings about his character?

20        A.   Well, the fact that he falsely represented himself, and we knew

21     that in the Crisis Staff.  Second, they would take money off people and

22     promise to use their offices with certain functionaries in Belgrade in

23     exchange for that.  Whatever he did was outside the law, and the only

24     thing he ever was involved in was wheeling and dealing.

25        Q.   Now, you say he falsely represented himself.  I believe yesterday

Page 9865

 1     you said he represented himself as a member of State Security.  What do

 2     you know about what organisation he worked for?

 3        A.   On one occasion, in order to make sure that he wasn't falsely

 4     representing himself, we were with a delegate in Belgrade and I went to

 5     see Grujic, the president of the municipality.  I took Grujic with me,

 6     and we went to the MUP of Serbia in Belgrade, to his office.  We saw him

 7     seated in his office, along with four other colleagues.  I told Grujic,

 8     Well, you can see very well, from the fact that he doesn't even have a

 9     telephone in his office, what sort of a position he has.  And then --

10        Q.   Sir, just so it doesn't become confused, are you saying you saw

11     Mr. Jekic in a building in Belgrade that belonged to the MUP of Serbia;

12     is that what your evidence is?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   But you say that when you looked in the office, you did not see a

15     telephone in the office; is that your evidence?

16        A.   No.  I saw him sitting behind a desk in an office where six or

17     seven more of his colleagues also had their desks.  So when we came to

18     see him, his boss recognised me.  In fact, he was working for a service

19     that was something like internal -- or in -- an inner control of the MUP.

20     Since his boss hailed from Sabac, close to Zvornik, and I, therefore,

21     knew him, he invited us to his office to have a cup of coffee with him.

22     And in order to show in front of Grujic, I --

23        Q.   Sir, if I can ask you some specific questions, and it's not

24     necessary, the thing about the coffee --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

Page 9866

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour, there is no

 2     need for him to talk about sipping coffee.  But, nevertheless, could he

 3     be allowed to finish what he was about to say?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me -- I think that he answered the question,

 5     and, therefore, Mr. Groome may intervene and put his next question to the

 6     witness.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. GROOME:

 9        Q.   Sir, when you went up to the office, where you expected to see

10     Mr. Jekic, were you allowed to go in without your identity being checked

11     or were you required to identify yourself?

12        A.   No, no, we reported to the reception desk and announced our

13     visit.  We said that we wanted to see him.

14        Q.   Now, I'm a little confused, and maybe you can help me understand

15     your evidence.  If he's not the person who he's represented himself to

16     be, how is it that he's sitting in the office where you expected to find

17     him?  How is that possible?

18        A.   Well, he introduced himself there an as employee of the

19     State Security.  Now, we went to the Public Security.  He represented

20     himself as the second or third person in importance in the MUP of Serbia,

21     and I wanted to dissuade Grujic, who was the president of the

22     municipality, of his impression that he, in fact, held the position he

23     represented himself as having.  I wanted to show that this wasn't the

24     case.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I understand now.

Page 9867

 1             Now, the second reason you -- or basis for you having such strong

 2     feelings, you say he took money.  Did he ever take money from you?

 3        A.   Not from me, but I know that he did take money from people I

 4     worked with -- or, rather, he took goods from a Zvornik factory that he

 5     never paid for, and also he took money from some people and he never paid

 6     them back.

 7        Q.   Are there criminal complaints that we would be able to go and

 8     retrieve, in which we might learn more about these thefts by Mr. Jekic?

 9        A.   It is certain that such documents exist.  I cannot say exactly

10     before which court, but I'm sure that there are many people that are

11     involved in lawsuits with him.

12        Q.   Well, we will file the appropriate request.

13             Now, I'd like to move to another topic, and this is your original

14     interview.  Over the break, you were provided a copy of the transcription

15     of that interview in your own language.

16             Can I ask you first:  Did you have an opportunity to review the

17     portion that you were provided?

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could my colleague, Mr. Groome,

22     state clearly for which purposes he is going to use this part of the

23     interview so that I would know what his intention was?

24             MR. GROOME:  Can I ask that the witness take off his head-set?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you take your earphones off, please.

Page 9868

 1             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, Mr. Jordash, in his examination, put to

 2     the witness that many of the details he provided in his evidence to the

 3     ICTY investigators was the result of seeing the Kula video - that's P61

 4     in our case - numerous times.  I simply want to establish in this

 5     document that there are a number of details here that are from the Kula

 6     video, yet I will establish that the Kula video, the first public viewing

 7     or display of the Kula video was one year later and it's a matter of

 8     public record in the Milosevic case, so to refute that particular

 9     assertion.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, being informed --

11             MR. PETROVIC:  Your Honour, I can understand that, but I would

12     like to point out the fact that the Kula video is not the only source of

13     possible information contained this paper.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No, of course.  But that's not what Mr. Groome says,

15     but Mr. Groome wants to challenge the evidence that most of the details

16     are coming from the Kula video.  That's -- could you please --

17     Witness JF-026.

18             Mr. Groome, please proceed.

19             At the same time, to be quite clear, what is in the Kula video

20     and what is said here, I think the parties could agree on what details do

21     appear and do not appear, not -- we can ask the witness where he did get

22     his details from, but not to compare the content of this with the Kula

23     video, where we don't need the witness for that.

24             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 9869

 1             MR. GROOME:

 2        Q.   Now, JF-026, both Defence counsel are not contesting the

 3     authenticity of the tape of your original interview with investigators

 4     from the ICTY.  But, nonetheless, I want to ask you:  Having reviewed the

 5     transcript of that interview, do you recognise it as the first detailed

 6     interview you had with ICTY investigators?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I don't believe I've said the 65 ter

 9     number of this.  This is 65 ter 5878.

10             Now --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that the whole or just the excerpts we were

12     provided with?

13             MR. GROOME:  That's the excerpt, the audio excerpt, and the

14     transcripts that you've been provided with, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That's two pages, 17th of February, Day 2, Tape 69,

16     pages 7 and 8.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. GROOME:

19        Q.   Now, after having read the transcript of that interview:  Is it

20     truthful, is it accurate?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Now, yesterday Mr. Jordash -- do you believe that any information

23     that's contained on that page that you reviewed is the result of you

24     having seen the Kula video on public broadcast?

25        A.   Well, this is my statement.

Page 9870

 1        Q.   Yesterday, when you said to Mr. Jordash that much of the detail

 2     you provided ICTY investigators was a result of seeing the Kula video,

 3     what details were you referring to?

 4        A.   Well, if I look at the statement now, and if I compare it -- I

 5     don't know exactly which details you mean.

 6        Q.   Let me rephrase my question.

 7             The information that's provided in that excerpt, is that a result

 8     of information that you possessed prior to seeing the Kula video or after

 9     seeing the Kula video?

10        A.   Well, even before I watched it.

11        Q.   So everything in that excerpt you knew prior to having viewed the

12     Kula video?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   So then let me return to the question that Mr. Jordash asked you.

15     What details -- what information did you provide the investigators that

16     you did not possess prior to seeing the Kula video?

17        A.   I don't know.  Some persons were mentioned, and I tried to

18     recognise them.  I'm not even sure whether I recognised all of them

19     correctly.

20        Q.   Now, in your answers to Mr. Jordash, you said -- with respect to

21     whether you saw the Kula tape prior to giving your evidence, you said:

22             "I'm not sure.  I do not remember."

23             I want to ask you to give additional thought to whether you saw

24     the Kula tape prior to giving the first account of your evidence to ICTY

25     investigators.  It is a matter of public record that the first public

Page 9871

 1     showing of the Kula video occurred on the 19th of February, 2003, in the

 2     Milosevic trial, during the testimony of Captain Dragan.

 3             MR. GROOME:  So that Your Honours and my colleagues on the

 4     Defence can verify this:  It occurred on Day 154 of the trial at

 5     transcript page 16440.  The Prosecution informs the Trial Chamber that

 6     the Rule 70 provider of the tape has just authorised the public playing

 7     of the video.  At transcript page 16451, Captain Dragan states that he

 8     first saw the Kula tape after arriving in The Hague.  And, finally, at

 9     transcript page 16747, Captain Dragan states that on the evening of the

10     day the tape was played, he called Frenki Simatovic and discussed

11     Mr. Simatovic's reaction to what he heard.

12        Q.   Sir, the first public viewing of the tape was a full year after

13     the interview that you gave to ICTY investigators.  Do you -- has that

14     refreshed your memory as to whether you relied on the Kula videotape for

15     information provided the investigators?

16        A.   I don't think I did rely on that.  I don't know when I first saw

17     it.  I really cannot recall now which period that was.

18        Q.   Now, yesterday, at T-45, line 16, you said:

19             "I have never seen them," referring to the two accused, "in my

20     life before this, and so I was interested in seeing them.  I saw

21     Mr. Stanisic a few times in the newspapers."

22             Now, after reading that portion of your initial interview with

23     investigators, does that change your recollection as to whether you saw

24     Mr. Stanisic prior to this courtroom here?

25        A.   No, I never saw him live.  I saw him in the newspapers, and I saw

Page 9872

 1     this gentleman for the first time when the indictment was issued.  I had

 2     not seen him even in the newspapers.  I hadn't even heard of him, to

 3     begin with.

 4        Q.   Can I then ask you -- perhaps it's an error in the translation.

 5     You referred to the funeral of Radoslav -- Rade Kostic, and you say:

 6             "Jovica was there.  I saw him then, for the first time then, in

 7     person."

 8             Do you recall saying that?

 9        A.   Yes, I do apologise.  You are right.  I first saw Mr. Stanisic in

10     person in 1995 at Kostic's funeral.  I apologise.  That is correct.

11        Q.   Are there any other occasions that you saw him prior to coming

12     into the court here?

13        A.   No.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the only time that I saw

16     him in person, live, that is correct.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, you know what I'm looking at.

18             MR. GROOME:  I've concluded my examination, Your Honour.  That

19     saves some additional time.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

21             Any need for further questions?

22             MR. JORDASH:  May I just cover quickly a couple of issues?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  There's -- perhaps, if you wouldn't mind, I

24     have one or two questions for him, and often the Chamber is -- so in

25     order to give an opportunity for you to consider the questions as well.

Page 9873

 1                           Questioned by the Court:

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness JF-026 -- Witness JF-026, was --

 3     Marko Pavlovic, was he involved in the arming of the population or

 4     volunteers?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Did he -- did he distribute the weapons through the

 7     Crisis Staff or through the SDS?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Did they come from JNA sources or are these included

10     in the JNA weapons you told us about?

11        A.   Well, he participated in this transport from the Republic of the

12     Serb Krajina and later on from the JNA.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.  I have no further

14     question for you.

15             Mr. Jordash, Mr. Petrovic, who will go first?  Mr. Petrovic, you?

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, two questions,

17     and a remark, first of all.

18             As for the time when this video was publicly played, I cannot

19     challenge it.  I have to check.  I just know that the accused were shown

20     this video considerably earlier.  So that is one observation I wish to

21     make.

22             And now two questions, if you allow me.

23                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] What was the name of this boss of Jekic's who

25     you went to see later, whose office you went to and who you talked to?

Page 9874

 1        A.   I cannot remember, but I know that the man was from Sabac, and he

 2     was an elderly man, about to retire.

 3        Q.   Tell us, briefly, what this boss of Jekic's said to you about

 4     Jekic.

 5        A.   I wanted to know what he did, and I asked him -- in front of the

 6     president of the municipality, I said, What is this guy of ours doing,

 7     since he hails from Zvornik originally?  And he said, He is basically a

 8     chicken thief.

 9        Q.   Did you recognise someone else, perhaps, in this office that four

10     or five persons were -- where four or five persons were sitting, in

11     addition to Jekic?

12        A.   No.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  No

14     further questions.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17             Could we have on the screen, please, 1D1642.  And this is, again,

18     a reference -- or a transcript of the same interview that Mr. Groome was

19     referring to concerning the Red Berets, I think.  The page that I want is

20     two pages after the excerpt that Mr. Groome showed you.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Jordash kindly speak into the other

22     microphone.  Thank you.

23                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:

24        Q.   And on page 89 of e-court, page 10 of the interview, at line 13

25     of the transcript, it says -- the interviewer asks you the question:

Page 9875

 1             "When you say the Red Berets, what group are you referring to

 2     there?"

 3             You answer:

 4             "A special police group.

 5             "Q.  Do you mean the group that had been in the news recently,

 6     the ones on the DB -- SDB, or are you referring to another group?"

 7             And you answer:

 8             "Yes, the one who was recently in news."

 9             What were you referring to has been in the news concerning the

10     Red Berets at the point you were interviewed?

11        A.   I don't understand the context in which I was speaking at the

12     time.  What news?

13        Q.   Well, the transcript appears to suggest you're speaking about a

14     group called the Red Berets, and --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  If you read the previous line to him, perhaps, where

16     apparently the --

17             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, I can do that.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MR. JORDASH:

20        Q.   Mr. Witness, the context is this:  You're referring to military

21     action in Divic, and you say this:

22             "Okay --"

23             Sorry, the Prosecutor asks you this:

24             "Okay.  Can you tell us, please, which units were involved in

25     those operations and how those operations were carried out?"

Page 9876

 1             Your answer:

 2             "At that time, I was the director of Autotransport, and I don't

 3     know many details, but I know that the Red Berets took part and units of

 4     the Colonel Mico Stupar, special -- special forces from Pancevo.

 5             "Q.  When you say the Red Berets, what group are you referring to

 6     there?

 7             "A.  A special police group.

 8             "Q.  Do you mean the group that had been in the news recently,

 9     the ones on the SDB, or are you referring to another group?"

10             Answer -- you say this, Mr. Witness:

11             "Yes, the one who was recently in news."

12        A.   I don't know what kind of news are being referred to.  But if it

13     is the attack on Divici and Kula Grad, the Red Berets took part, the

14     military ones belonging to Mr. Stupar, who then held the rank of

15     lieutenant-colonel, because the military had some special unit that also

16     wore red berets.

17        Q.   But with reference to the news, are you able to say at this point

18     what the news was that you'd watched and which the Prosecutor also

19     appears to have watched?

20        A.   I really cannot remember what kind of news that was.

21        Q.   Okay.  Well, let's leave that there, then.

22             Just one question, if I can, about Mr. Jekic.  You say he

23     represented himself as a member of the DB, and yet you didn't find that

24     to be the case.  Do you know what views he held towards the DB or to the

25     accused, if any?

Page 9877

 1        A.   Well, I don't know, really, I don't understand.

 2        Q.   Do you know what his view was towards you?

 3        A.   Well, he was hostile, and I think that he had some kind of phobia

 4     to the effect that he wanted to become a member of the DB some day.  So

 5     he had these bad relations with people.

 6        Q.   Did he ever become a member of the DB, from what you know?

 7        A.   No.  He ended up in Public Security.  That's where he ended his

 8     career.

 9        Q.   Do you know if he harboured hostile feelings towards the DB for

10     not making that grade or employment?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Yes, he did; do you know that?

13        A.   Well, I saw it on the basis of his comments, that, in a way, he

14     was kind of jealous.  It seemed that he wanted to be that that he had

15     introduced himself to be.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Witness.

17             Thank you, Your Honour.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, please allow me

19     three questions that are based on the questions put by Mr. Jordash, very

20     briefly.  Thank you.

21                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, do you remember something that was

23     often called the rebellion of the Red Berets in Serbia in November 2001?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Do you remember that all the newspapers, all the media, were

Page 9878

 1     writing and talking about it for days, who the Red Berets were, who was

 2     their founder, what their role was during the war and after the war?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Do you remember that the late prime minister of Serbia,

 5     Zoran Djindjic, went to Kula, to the centre of the Red Berets that had

 6     been named after Kostic, and that he negotiated with the Red Berets

 7     there?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Do you remember that all the TV stations in Serbia broadcast

10     Djindjic's conversations in Kula for days?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Do you remember that the minister of the interior, Mihajlovic,

13     and the head of the parliamentary group of the Democratic Party in the

14     Assembly of Serbia, Jovanovic, that they also went to Kula to talk to the

15     members of the Red Berets?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Do you remember that for days, all the Serbian media reported

18     about that, too?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  No

21     further questions.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  These were five questions.

23             Yes, Mr. Groome.

24             MR. GROOME:  Just one line of question -- one question arising

25     out of that last set of questions.

Page 9879

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you're the calling party, so that would

 2     open -- but I would certainly discourage you to put further questions

 3     within, of course, the framework of your duties.

 4             Mr. Groome.

 5                           Further re-examination by Mr. Groome:

 6        Q.   JF-026, when Mr. Jordash asked you if you remembered what was in

 7     the news with respect to the Red Berets in November 2001 or around that

 8     time of your interview, you seemed to draw a complete blank.  Yet when

 9     Mr. Petrovic has given you a really long list of very, very specific

10     details 30 seconds later, you seem to have a recollection.  How do you

11     account for the change in recollection?

12        A.   Well, what Mr. Petrovic asked me is directly related to the

13     assassination of the Serbian prime minister.  That was repeated so many

14     times, thousands of times.

15             MR. GROOME:  Nothing further, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             Mr. Groome, just a comment.  You may or less blamed the witness

18     in a change in recollection.  I don't think, as a matter of fact, that

19     that's the case.  Mr. Jordash asked what he referred to at that time in

20     the news he would have seen, and the questions after that by

21     Mr. Petrovic, he asked for certain matters to be shown on television, not

22     necessarily to be linked to what he said in his interview, although

23     apparently you thought that that would be linked.  But that was not

24     established, at least not in the questions and the answers to it.

25             No further questions?  No.

Page 9880

 1             Witness JF-026, this concludes your testimony in this court.

 2     First of all, I'd like to thank you for coming.  I'm also pleased by the

 3     fact that there's a fair chance that you might make it back home again

 4     today.  There is, however, one matter still pending; that is, the

 5     extension of your protective measures.

 6             We, as you will remember, provisionally extended your protection

 7     to closed session, although reasons were not entirely clear yet.  I would

 8     like to invite you to further explain, during the few -- time which

 9     remains, to further explain to the Victims and Witness Section what

10     exactly your safety and security concerns are which you had not yet

11     earlier explained to the Victims and Witness Section.  And the Victims

12     and Witness Section is invited to prepare a report on their discussions

13     with you in relation to this.  The Chamber will have to decide whether or

14     not your testimony finally will be with the more limited protective

15     measures, that is, face distortion, voice distortion and pseudonym, or

16     whether it will remain confidential to the extent that it will be closed

17     session evidence.

18             Is that clear to you?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Since we'll adjourn in open session, if you would

21     give me just one moment to check a few matters.

22             Yes.  One matter, briefly, Mr. Jordash.

23             The witness was asked to review his testimony in the second case.

24     No one has tendered it, nor have I heard a lot of questions about that.

25     I'm not concerned about it, but that's the situation as it is.

Page 9881

 1             MR. JORDASH:  We would like to tender it as --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  For the other purposes?

 3             MR. JORDASH:  No, as a Rule 92 ter document.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  But you haven't asked him whether he had reviewed,

 5     whether there are any comments, if I'm correct.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  I think that's absolutely right, and that's --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you want to tender it under Rule 92 ter,

 8     you should at least provide for the --

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I got so far yesterday and then the

10     witness --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Well, then perhaps we -- let's see.

12             Did you review the testimony you have given in the second case,

13     the testimony that was given to you?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you recognise this as the recording of your

16     testimony given in January of this year?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you notice anything which you considered not to

19     be truthful in that testimony --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- whether that was because you find out later that

22     it was not in accordance with the truth or whether it was by any mistake.

23     So do I understand that if the same questions were put to you, that you

24     would give substantially the same answers?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 9882

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  This matter has now been raised by me at this

 2     moment.  Is there anything, but limited to this, which the parties would

 3     consider it necessary to ask the witness about?

 4             Mr. Petrovic.

 5             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would only like to

 6     say that I stand by our position from the outset, which was that the

 7     witness -- the witness's evidence, what we heard in the courtroom, is the

 8     only thing that should be looked at.  Various attestations of his

 9     previous statements and evidence I don't think can be very helpful.

10     Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  This is a matter of weighing and evaluating the

12     evidence.  The only thing I was doing, where Mr. Jordash had not yet

13     tendered the transcript and where he had not put any questions to the

14     witness which might open the way to admission under Rule 92 ter, that at

15     least we didn't let the witness go, because it might be difficult to

16     repair it at any later stage.  That's the only thing that we did at this

17     moment.  Any further discussion on admission or any further discussion on

18     weighing or evaluating that evidence is not needed at this very moment.

19             Then, Witness, we most likely will receive a report, then, from

20     the Victims and Witness Section in which they reflect what you explained,

21     as far as your security concerns are.

22             This concludes your testimony.  I'd like to thank you very much

23     for coming to The Hague and for staying with us for a couple of days.

24     And I now invite the Usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

25                           [The witness withdrew]

Page 9883

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We return into open session.

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 5             Mr. Groome, for next week, I think two witnesses are scheduled,

 6     Ewa Tabeau and another witness.  Is that --

 7             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  That's what I wanted to raise

 8     with you.

 9             I expect by Tuesday, both will be here, both can testify, but I

10     wonder whether it would be prudent, if everyone agrees, that we go

11     straight to JF-029 and keep Ewa Tabeau again waiting on the shelf, as it

12     were, so that she can be available to fill in a gap, should one arise.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You know that we're in public session, so if

14     you ask her to wait on the shelf --

15             MR. GROOME:  Sorry, Ms. Tabeau.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections against that?

17             Mr. Petrovic.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, by your leave, this

19     would pose a problem to us, in view of our preparations for these two

20     witnesses.  We followed the dynamics as they were announced to us, so I

21     apologise.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you please see whether you can find any

23     agreement with Mr. Groome on this and see what's possible or not.  If

24     it's not possible, of course, the Chamber will have to decide on whether

25     Mr. Groome is allowed to change the order of the appearance of the

Page 9884

 1     witnesses.

 2             Is there any other matter at this moment to be raised?  If not,

 3     we will -- we adjourn, and we'll resume Tuesday, the 7th of December,

 4     quarter past 2.00, Courtroom II.

 5                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.40 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 7th day of

 7                           December, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.