1 Friday, 3 December 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,
8 everyone in and around the courtroom.
9 This is the case number IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus
10 Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 Perhaps the Usher could already find the witness. Would you
13 please verify whether we're in closed session when we -- when you enter
14 the courtroom.
15 Yesterday, we briefly discussed the handwritten letter.
16 Mr. Jordash, I think you still wanted to think about it.
17 MR. JORDASH: We read it, and we do not see a purpose in
18 tendering it. But if the Prosecution wish to have it tendered, we won't
19 oppose that.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, any reason why you would want to tender
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, it's been referred to now in the
23 testimony. I will ask additional questions about it, so I believe it's
24 appropriate that it would be marked as an exhibit.
25 JUDGE ORIE: If that's the case, then -- you received a copy.
1 Have you up-loaded a copy in e-court?
2 MR. GROOME: I don't believe we have, but I can look after that,
3 Your Honour, during the first session.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we turn into closed session.
5 [Closed session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We are in closed session, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 WITNESS: JF-026 [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Witness JF-26. It's appreciated --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
13 JUDGE ORIE: It's appreciated that you're present in court.
14 I would like to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn
15 declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony; that is,
16 that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 Mr. Jordash, are you ready to continue?
18 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes, thank you.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash: [Continued]
20 Q. Good morning, Mr. Witness.
21 A. Good morning.
22 MR. JORDASH: Could we go straight, please, to 1D1642. I want to
23 pick up on where we left yesterday. Page 85 in the e-court, and it's
24 page 105 of the B/C/S.
25 Q. While that's being found: We're returning to the subject of
1 Bogdanovic, Mr. Witness. And on the English, line -- this is your
2 interview, Mr. Witness, from the 17th of February, 2002, your interview
3 you gave to the Prosecution. Do you recall this, or at least --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you can see there, at line 6 of the English, at least,
6 when -- the question is asked:
7 "When you say he represented state security, do you mean state
8 security of Bosnia or state security of Serbia?
9 "A. Serbia.
10 "Q. Do you personally believe that he was a member of the state
11 security from Serbia?
12 "A. I don't think so. I think that was a group gathered around
13 Radno Bogdanovic. That was a sort of parallel state security. I don't
14 know how to call it, whether patriots or professional intelligence men.
15 You see a man with a secondary school education had such contacts that he
16 could -- that he could easily pick up a phone and call somebody in Serbia
17 and a track with ammunitions, with armament arrives, or uniforms arrive,
18 or he engages the unit of JNA of special forces that attacked Divic and
19 Kula Grad."
20 That's the point I was getting at yesterday. Your use of the
21 term "parallel state security" gathered around Bogdanovic, could you
22 elaborate on that a bit, please?
23 A. Well, what I roughly said was that my assessment was that this
24 was a parallel state security. Now, whether they called themselves
25 patriots at the time or whatever, but they did use the authority that
1 they had earlier on, and they knew people from earlier on from the MUP
2 and the Ministry of Defence. And it is a well-known thing that the
3 Ministry of Defence is linked with the JNA.
4 Q. And you mentioned yesterday about Bogdanovic, that prior to his
5 involvement with the Serbian MUP, was involved with the minister of
6 defence. Can you confirm that he was the Serbian assistant minister of
7 defence prior to being the minister of interior of Serbia?
8 A. I think the answer is yes.
9 Q. Is that something you heard when you were involved with visiting
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When you visited Bogdanovic, did he recall or mention to you any
13 of his previous contacts with the Ministry of Defence?
14 A. Well, nothing specific was stated, but I know that he worked at
15 the Ministry of Defence, and I know that he knew all of those people who
16 stayed on after he had left.
17 Q. How many times do you think you visited Bogdanovic; you,
19 A. I'm sure about two times.
20 Q. And did I understand you correctly, that you visited with Kostic
21 at some point?
22 A. Yes, once.
23 Q. And were there discussions during that time about what assistance
24 Bogdanovic could give towards Zvornik and the Serbs in Zvornik?
25 A. Well, yes. For the most part, it boiled down to those reserves
1 of weapons they had in the Republic of the Serb Krajina and reliance on
2 the Ministry of Defence that had links with the JNA, and in this way,
3 Serb military conscripts were recruited in the reserve force of the JNA.
4 Q. Now, you mentioned -- and we'll come back to Kostic in more depth
5 in a moment or two, but you mentioned in your statement that at some
6 point he told you that his superior's name was Tepavcevic. Do you recall
7 that evidence?
8 A. I don't remember the last name, but this may be 1995 or 1994 when
9 he told me that he worked in the MUP of Serbia.
10 Q. Right, and that's what I'm trying to aim at. There wasn't, was
11 there, a discussion during the visit to Bogdanovic, when Kostic was
12 there, a discussion about how Tepavcevic or anyone in the DB could
13 assist? The discussion was about Bogdanovic saying, Well, the army will
14 assist; is that fair?
15 A. I think that Tepavcevic was not mentioned then. The army, the
16 Ministry of Defence, and the Republic of the Serb Krajina was.
17 Q. And Kostic didn't speak to you in 1991 or 1992 about how his
18 contacts in the DB would assist?
19 A. He did not mention it at the time. He was simply speaking from
20 the position that he held in the Republic of the Serb Krajina. That's
21 how I knew him.
22 Q. Now, you mention in your statement about -- perhaps I can take
23 you there so we can orientate ourselves.
24 MR. JORDASH: Could we have Exhibit 5865, please. I want to stay
25 with the subject of arming. And paragraph --
1 JUDGE ORIE: What statement is that? What exhibit number is it?
2 MR. JORDASH: 65 ter 5865.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's not an exhibit.
4 MR. JORDASH: Sorry. Yes, it's a --
5 JUDGE ORIE: If you say what statement it is, then --
6 MR. JORDASH: Yes, sorry. It's the statement of the 15th and
7 16th of December, 2008.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. JORDASH: And it's paragraph 32.
10 Q. And before that comes up, let me ask you this question: Am I
11 correct that there were several bridges across the Drina at the time of
12 the arming?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. There was one bridge at Karakaj; yes?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And there was also an old bridge close by?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. This was a bridge -- at least one of those bridges was the way in
19 which the individual volunteers crossed into Zvornik from Serbia?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was it also the way in which some of the weapons which were
22 coming from the JNA were transported into the Zvornik region?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, looking at paragraph 32, if you just read that, you speak of
25 some weapons being illegally obtained from Serbia and Croatia, and you
1 testify there that Branko Grujic told you that he had agreed with some
2 people from the Serbian State Security that they would transfer weapons
3 across the Drina. And am I correct that that transfer took place not
4 over the bridges, but by boat?
5 A. Yes, the transfer took place by boat. But I said Serbian
6 Security Services, that's what I said. That is what is written there,
8 Q. That's right, you did make that comment, and that's what is
9 written there, according to what you said before, according to the
10 original. But that transfer took place by boat and not across the
11 bridges. Does that indicate -- or did that indicate to you that that was
12 being done in such a way as to keep it quiet from the authorities who
13 were manning the bridges?
14 A. Well, I did not take part in that transfer, but certainly there
15 is something illegal as concerns this transfer.
16 Q. Well, could you think of any other reason why it would be done by
17 boat rather than straight across the bridges?
18 A. Probably there was something unofficial about it.
19 Q. Thank you. Let's return to the subject of Rade Kostic. Is it
20 correct that in February of 1992, or thereabouts, Kostic occupied the
21 position of interior -- minister of the interior of the RSK, assistant,
22 effectively, to Matic?
23 A. Yes, for the region of Slavonia and Baranja.
24 Q. And from your observations of him and Pavlovic, could this
25 explain why Pavlovic referred to Kostic as "boss" on occasion?
1 A. Well, obviously Kostic was a person of authority for him, and
2 Pavlovic addressed him as "boss" several times in my presence.
3 Q. You have testified about Kostic's involvement with arming or
4 obtaining arms. Was Kostic's involvement with obtaining arms limited to
5 what he arranged or what was arranged through Bogdanovic?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, you mentioned -- no, let me start that again. Is it correct
8 that Kostic had contacts with Dragan Suka or Drago Suka?
9 A. Well, Kostic hails from Zvornik, Mali Zvornik, actually, and when
10 he came to the area it is possible that he had some contacts. But I'm
11 not sure about that.
12 Q. Can you just explain who Drago Suka was, what you know about him,
14 A. Well, since I worked for the police in Zvornik, and Loznica and
15 Mali Zvornik are neighbouring municipalities, and I note that at the time
16 we were working there, we were working in the same state. We were
17 colleagues, we cooperated. I met Drago Suka for the first time when a
18 murder was being investigated that had occurred in Banja Koviljaca. At
19 the time, he worked in this detachment of the State Security - that was
20 the word that was used - for municipality of Loznica or for this region
21 consisting of several municipalities. I'm not sure.
22 MR. JORDASH: Let's go to paragraph 45 of 65 ter 5865.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, could I first seek a clarification of
24 one of the previous answers.
25 Witness 26, you said that Kostic's involvement with obtaining
1 arms was limited to what he arranged or what was arranged through
2 Bogdanovic. In your statement, paragraph 37, you say that you knew
3 Rade Kostic personally, but that he did not tell you any details about
4 his position, and that it was after he had died that you became aware of
5 him having known persons because they attended his funeral. Now, what is
6 it that you can positively claim that his involvement didn't go any
7 further, where at the same time you tell us that Kostic did not always
8 discuss details of his position with you, and that you apparently were
9 not even aware of it until after he died?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, we finished the
11 arming in April, when the war started, in 1992. Up until then, I also
12 visited his home, et cetera. The man was working in Slavonia and
13 Baranja. After that, we saw each other a few times. It was always
14 private encounters. I never went to his office. We always visited each
15 other at home. I did not even know that the man worked in the MUP of
16 Serbia and that he was some kind of a - how should I put this? - person
17 of importance until I went to attend his funeral. And everything that
18 I'm saying is confirmed in my statement as well. Everything actually
19 corresponds to this story.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm not saying that that is inconsistent.
21 What I'm asking you is that where, apparently at a certain moment, he,
22 although being a personal friend, he did not share certain information
23 with you, why you exclude for the possibility that his role in arming may
24 have gone beyond what he shared with you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, in April of 1992, that
1 was when the conflict started. We had armed by then, and by that point
2 JNA or VRS had no need for either Slavonia, or Baranja, or any additional
3 arming. We had weapons.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
5 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Paragraph 45, just have a look at that, Mr. Witness, please.
7 Could I ask you this: Is it fair to say that you don't have any evidence
8 to back up what you heard about the involvement of Dragan Suka with
9 Pavlovic concerning weapon distribution? You didn't see it yourself?
10 A. Well, this is a rather peculiar question. I have to explain
12 We were still one state. I lived in the municipality of
13 Mali Zvornik. My house and that of the chief of police of Mali Zvornik
14 were next to each other. There was a yard between us. We were on
15 visiting terms. Suka and Pavlovic would come to visit both him and me.
16 Now, in answer to the Prosecutor's question whether
17 Marko Pavlovic was on visiting terms with Suka, my answer was, yes,
18 because we were all on visiting terms. Since this is a small town, we
19 were socialising. But I have no direct knowledge as to what sort of a
20 relationship he had with Suka, whether there was a professional aspect to
21 it or not. I know that privately they were on visiting terms, just as
22 Goran Zugic would drop by at that time, as well as all the other
23 individuals who were part of that company. There was Mustafic with us as
24 well, and Fadil Mujic, the entire crowd. We would be seeing each other
25 in the home of the chief of the police of Mali Zvornik.
1 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
2 Could we have on the screen, please --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Just for my understanding: What Mr. Jordash asked
4 you is whether, apart from hearing about these matters, whether you have
5 any other evidence. Did I understand your answer well that what you
6 heard, you heard that from Pavlovic and Suka, and perhaps others?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only thing I know is that
8 Pavlovic and Suka were together in my company on a couple of occasions.
9 Now, what the nature of their relationship was, what they were up to
10 together, is not something I know.
11 JUDGE ORIE: But in your statement, it reads:
12 "I heard they did a lot of work to organise weapons
14 Did you hear that from Pavlovic and Suka or did you hear that
15 from anyone else? And if so, from whom?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that this was a comment by
17 Vidovic, or I'm not sure.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Vidovic, the commander of the police station in
19 Mali Zvornik. Are these the matters that were discussed when you
20 socialised with Vidovic and the others you just mentioned?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. We would frequently discuss
22 activities, but I don't know what the true nature of the relationship
23 between Suka and the other individuals was. All of us avoided the
24 subject. So as soon as Suka would be part of the company, we wouldn't be
25 that open and frank in our conversations.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, your statement says that it is as vague
2 as that they did a lot of work to organise weapon distribution, and that
3 is -- although you did not thoroughly discuss the matters, that's what
4 you learned during those conversations; is that correctly understood?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we may have had suspicions
6 about the nature of the relationship between Pavlovic and Suka, and I
7 don't know if they had any sort of special relationship. What I focused
8 on was whether they socialised. And I did say that I saw them together,
9 but I don't know the nature of their relationship.
10 JUDGE ORIE: But in your statement, you go further, isn't it, and
11 even in one of your previous answers you told us that this was Vidovic's
12 comment. Now you suddenly step back and say that you had suspicions.
13 Well, even not knowing whether what was said was true or not, I'm
14 focusing exclusively on what you heard at the time, and which is in your
15 statement described that you heard they did a lot of work to organise
16 weapon distribution.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's accurately written, but
18 I think that, as a matter of fact, Drago Suka would be part of the
19 company in order to see what Marko Pavlovic was up to. He wasn't quite
20 clear on what he was doing, and I think that the point of him socialising
21 in our company was to find out what Marko Pavlovic's role and activities
22 were. I think that officially he was monitoring him. He was, in fact,
23 trying to gather, I think, intelligence about who he was and what he was
24 doing there.
25 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, you say it's accurate that you
1 heard that they did a lot of work to organise weapon distribution, which
2 is a bit different from the one monitoring the other, isn't it, trying to
3 find intelligence?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did say that, but it's not true,
5 Judge. I said it inadvertently, but it's not true.
6 JUDGE ORIE: What is not true, the monitoring or --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have any information to the
8 effect that Drago Suka worked together with Marko Pavlovic. I think that
9 Drago Suka monitored Pavlovic as a person of interest who appeared in
10 Mali Zvornik, Zvornik, Tuzla, and so on.
11 JUDGE ORIE: But where you said that this is accurately written,
12 you confirm that you said that you heard that they did a lot of work to
13 organise weapon distribution. But now you say, although you have said
14 it, it's not true. Is that correctly understood?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.
16 JUDGE ORIE: We will have a look also at the video underlying the
17 statement in this respect.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
11 Page 9811 redacted.
11 Page 9812 redacted.
1 Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: D162 is admitted into evidence, under seal.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. JORDASH: May we have, please, Rule 65 ter 4655.
5 And this is a State Security Department official note again, this
6 time dated 7th of January, 1992.
8 Q. And we see there Radoslav Kostic's name?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. JORDASH: If we can go back to the first page.
11 Q. So 7th of January, 1992, very shortly before the critical events
12 in Zvornik, Kostic appears to be providing information to the
13 State Security Department of Serbia. And my question is: Did you ever
14 find out from Kostic or have any indication from Kostic concerning his
15 precise obligations towards the State Security Department in Serbia,
16 vis-a-vis providing information as an operative?
17 A. Our socialising was of a private nature. He didn't tell me much
18 about his official contacts.
19 MR. JORDASH: Okay. For Your Honours' information, it's accepted
20 from the Stanisic Defence that Kostic had these obligations towards the
21 State Security and was employed in that role at this period in time.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jordash.
23 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
24 Q. Are you able to assist in providing some background information
25 concerning police officers of Serb nationality in the RSK in this way:
1 Am I correct that towards the end of 1990 and in 1991, many police
2 officers of Serb nationality were expelled from the various -- or various
3 SUPs within the RSK region, expelled by Croats?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Are you privy to any information concerning what happened to many
6 of those hundreds of police officers, in terms of their applying, then,
7 to the Serb service for some form of employment so that they could
8 sustain themselves and provide a livelihood for themselves?
9 A. Since the then Yugoslavia had not yet recognised the secession of
10 Slovenia and Croatia, it was the obligation of the SUP to receive all
11 those who wanted to move on to Serbia, because these were policemen, they
12 didn't know what else to do. It was their livelihood.
13 Q. And so many of these hundreds of police officers were then
14 employed or at least received a stipend from the Serbian MUP; are you
15 privy to that information?
16 A. Well, even today I know dozens of such individuals who had
17 precisely that shift of -- in their career. That was standard practice.
18 Q. And a few, a very few, I suggest, such as Kostic, were employed
19 on an operative basis within the Serbian DB, with the majority of these
20 police officers being assigned to the public security?
21 A. Yes, that's right.
22 Q. In your dealings with Kostic, did you -- let me start that again.
23 In your dealings with Kostic, did he ever tell you that prior to being
24 fired from his position as the police station commander in Darda, he had
25 been a candidate for the assistant minister of the interior in Zagreb?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Basically, he was considered to be an excellent police officer,
3 and that's why he was a candidate for the assistant minister of the
4 interior in Zagreb; did you learn that?
5 A. Yes. I was -- I stayed there in that town, and he was considered
6 the best policeman, a person of authority, and excelled in every sense.
7 Q. And I'm going to suggest that Kostic was known to be an honest
8 and a decent man. That was his reputation within Darda and the outlying
9 regions of Darda?
10 A. I agree fully.
11 Q. Now, you spoke about Kostic warning you not to communicate with
12 Arkan, and I want to understand that a little more, because I'm going to
13 suggest that Kostic, even prior to becoming assistant to Martic, was
14 against a movement of paramilitaries into -- in Eastern Slavonia and into
15 the RSK.
16 A. When he was in Bijeljina, Arkan set up his structure there. He
17 would always bring along a couple of his men and would then have some
18 locals join. He would have this organisation there, and then he would
19 move on -- and he moved on to Zvornik. I was 26 when the conflict broke
20 out. However, fortunately, I saw Kostic in that period of time, told him
21 of this whole idea, and he, in turn, told me that these were problematic
22 people who had problematic records, and that I should, by no means, have
23 any contacts with them, that I should try to avoid any contact with them.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness also said
1 something about the contact between him and Arkan, and that's not
2 reflected in the record. And I'm referring to this last answer.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you say anything about your contacts with
4 Arkan, and could you please repeat that, Witness JF-026?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't understand English.
6 I don't know what was interpreted. But the gist of it is that Arkan
7 suggested that he should have the Serbian Volunteer Guard present in
8 Zvornik. And me, being a young man, found it interesting, found it
9 appealing. He offered that I should be the leader of that field
10 structure of his, but, fortunately, several days later I saw Kostic. We
11 had a private conversation, where I shared this idea with him, and he
12 replied that I should not be in contact with these people, that I should
13 refuse this, that I should not have any contacts with people that he
14 considered problematic, and that I should avoid any contacts with them.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, please proceed.
16 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Could we have, please, on the screen D67. Not to be shown to the
18 public. Thank you. This is another State Security report, 7th of
19 January, 1992.
20 Could we go, please, to -- I'm not interested, particularly, in
21 the author of this at the moment. But if we look at page 7 of the
22 English and 4 of the B/C/S, I want to ask about a particular man.
23 Q. You see the second paragraph there concerning:
24 "Unconfirmed reports indicate that Zeljko Raznatovic, aka Arkan,
25 has founded a so-called Serbian Volunteer Guard ..."
1 If you just read that paragraph to the end to yourself, I'll ask
2 you a question or two about it.
3 Now, have you read that, Mr. Witness?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you know if this man, Djordje Bozovic, aka Giska, did you hear
6 about him?
7 A. Yes, I read it in the papers.
8 Q. Did you hear about him and he being the commander of a
9 paramilitary unit?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, I know it's long time ago to remember conversations, but I
12 suggest that Kostic was responsible for threatening Giska in
13 Eastern Slavonia and ordering him to leave Eastern Slavonia, and
14 successfully removing his group from Eastern Slavonia. Do you know
15 anything about that?
16 A. I know that he wanted to protect his family, because apparently
17 there had been some threats, and that apparently Giska was involved. So
18 he was trying to get his family out of harm's way.
19 Q. And the threat involved Kostic basically pulling a gun on Giska
20 and ordering him and his group of approximately 30 men to leave
21 Eastern Slavonia. Did you hear that?
22 A. Yes. That is precisely why he was threatened by that group.
23 Q. Am I correct that --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The last answer is still puzzling me a bit.
25 MR. JORDASH:
1 Q. You've just given an answer which says:
2 "Yes. That is precisely why he was threatened by that group."
3 Who was threatened by that group?
4 A. Well, Kostic took part in throwing that group of volunteers out.
5 I think it had been organised by some political party from Belgrade.
6 They were like a paramilitary structure. He threw them out. And I know
7 that he told me that he was careful about where his children were moving
8 about, because he had received threats on account of that.
9 Q. Threats on account of what?
10 A. Because of this group of Giska's, because he expelled them from
11 Slavonia and Baranja.
12 Q. So the sequence of events is: Kostic throws out this -- or takes
13 part in removing this paramilitary group. As a result of that, they
14 threaten his family?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, I want to just return very briefly to Bogdanovic. Did
17 Bogdanovic not mention at any stage his contacts with Arkan?
18 A. Not in front of me. But it's a well-known thing that he was
19 president of the Red Star Football Club and Arkan was leader of the fans
20 there, so I think that that contact and relationship is from those days.
21 And how it developed further, I don't know. Also, rumour had it that
22 when Arkan was arrested in Zagreb by the Croatian police, that Bogdanovic
23 phoned the then minister of the interior to release him. To everyone's
24 surprise, he released him within two days.
25 Q. This was towards the end of 1990; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, yes, before the start of the conflict in Croatia. Or,
2 actually, the clashes had already started.
3 Q. And at that point, Bogdanovic was the minister of interior of
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 Q. And was it well known or well rumoured that Arkan had received
7 his weapons from the federal institute at that time which was a part of
8 the federal SUP?
9 A. Well, I've already said here that he came then in a car that had
10 license plates that belonged to the federal SUP and with full police
11 gear; I mean, uniform, weapons, and communications equipment.
12 Q. Now, I want to try to understand what happened concerning Arkan's
13 arrival in Zvornik. You first saw Arkan in Bijeljina or Zvornik; which
15 A. In Bijeljina.
16 Q. Did you speak to him on that occasion?
17 A. Yes. I told him what the situation was like in Zvornik, and I
18 extended an invitation to him, on behalf of the Crisis Staff, to come to
20 Q. So at that point in time when you extended the invitation --
21 well, why did you extend the invitation at that point in time?
22 A. Well, because conflicts had broken out in Zvornik, the JNA was
23 attacked by the Muslims, we were a minority, we were expelled from
24 Zvornik. Quite simply, I mean, at the time we were in an unenviable
25 position, and we sought help.
1 Q. So at that point, it was your understanding that Arkan had not
2 decided or been asked to come to Zvornik; he was then engaged in
4 A. He was killed [as interpreted] in Bijeljina at the time, and I
5 went there with my assistant, who was officially on the police force,
6 because we were sent by the Crisis Staff to invite him. Had we known
7 that he would be coming, we would not go there to ask him to come. After
8 all, as we crossed the Drina and -- I mean, the way we crossed the Drina
9 and where we stayed, that shows that there was no preconceived
10 organisation. It is simply that the situation was such that different
11 decisions had to be made from one minute to the other.
12 Q. What do you mean, the way you crossed the Drina indicated that
13 there was no preconceived organisation?
14 A. Well, in Bosnia there were already barricades, roadblocks, in all
15 urban areas. Near the village of Badovinci, we crossed the Drina on a
16 small boat, not across the bridge, and then during the night we went
17 towards Zvornik. And since we had nowhere to put them up in Zvornik,
18 because the Muslims held the town itself, we put them up only for one
19 night in a remote hotel that is called Radalj. This is about six or
20 seven kilometres away from the border with Bosnia. The Crisis Staff paid
21 for their accommodation at that hotel. Quite simply, they were guests of
22 the Crisis Staff.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, perhaps I'm a bit confused.
24 One of your answers started:
25 "He was killed in Bijeljina at the time ..."
1 Who were you referring to?
2 Perhaps the -- my colleague suggests that there may be a
3 transcript or translation error and that he was still in Bijeljina at the
5 MR. JORDASH: I think that must be right.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then that's caused my confusion.
7 Now, you said you went there. You were sent by the Crisis Staff
8 to invite him. In your statement, we read that Rade Kostic phoned you
9 and told you that you were to go to Bijeljina. Is that the same trip you
10 are talking about?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it has to do with the same
12 trip. In the statement, I did say that we called that Parliamentary
13 Committee for Serbs Outside Serbia. We asked different people for help.
14 Inter alia, we spoke to Kostic, who was in Darda at the time. However,
15 since Bijeljina --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you're talking about the same trip. In
17 your statement --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
19 JUDGE ORIE: In your statement, it reads:
20 "Arkan told me that the next goal of his unit was Zvornik, and he
21 asked about the situation in Zvornik. My impression was that it had all
22 been arranged or co-ordinated. Biljana Plavsic said so, and Rade Kostic
23 told us this as well."
24 Is that correct, or is correct what you told us, or could you
25 explain how to understand the statement compared to the answers you've
1 just given?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I would really like to
3 explain this to you, Judge.
4 It is correct that we contacted the ministry -- or, rather, this
5 committee, this parliamentary committee. We called Sarajevo, we called
6 the headquarters of the SDS, we called the Crisis Staff that was at the
7 level of Republika Srpska. We called everyone. We were looking for
8 anybody's help, and, inter alia, we spoke to Kostic.
9 It is true that I went, at that proposal of the Crisis Staff,
10 with my assistant to invite Arkan, because there was this very similar
11 situation that had occurred in Bijeljina and he resolved it within two
13 In Bijeljina, also, the Muslims took the town first, and then
14 Arkan came with his unit and established Serb authority in Bijeljina.
15 The same thing happened in Zvornik.
16 It is correct that he said to me that he had heard that that had
17 happened in Zvornik and that his next destination is Zvornik. I don't
18 know where else he went afterwards, in terms of the theatre of war, but I
19 believed then that there was some plan, that the federal SUP or the
20 federal state, that at the time did not recognise Bosnia-Herzegovina, did
21 have some sort of plan to resolve the crisis. We particularly believed
22 in the JNA.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And that's the meeting you talked about which took
24 only two minutes; is that --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, at the Cultural Centre in
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. JORDASH:
5 Q. Perhaps it's me, but I don't understand what the role of Kostic
6 was in this.
7 A. I've already said, we called 50 different sources of assistance.
8 We were asking for help. He was in Darda. We asked whether he had any
9 weapons left and whether he had any possibility to help us.
10 Q. And he informed you what concerning Arkan?
11 A. Well, as we were talking, we referred to how the situation had
12 been resolved in Bijeljina. Although his view of Arkan was highly
13 negative, he did say at that point in time, You see how they resolve
14 things in Bijeljina. You could do the same thing. And that was a signal
15 for me to go and call Arkan and his people, because, after all, Bijeljina
16 had a different population structure that was far more favourable to the
17 Serbs than Zvornik.
18 Q. And that conversation took place when?
19 A. Well, I don't know. I'm not sure about the date, but it may be
20 the beginning of April 1992.
21 Q. And that was Kostic's involvement, limited to that suggestion,
22 involvement with Arkan's arrival in Zvornik?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Again, Mr. Jordash, I'd like, then, to seek
1 clarification of the statement.
2 Witness JF-026, you said, in relation to going to Arkan:
3 "My impression was that it had all been arranged or co-ordinated.
4 Biljana Plavsic said so, and Rade Kostic told us this as well."
5 So apparently there are now two versions of the story. The one
6 is Kostic, one out of fifty people you approached, Kostic saying, Well,
7 perhaps you could ask Arkan, who did something in Bijeljina, it might
8 assist you as well. And the other one, the other version of the story is
9 Kostic telling you, Report to Arkan, you have a two or three minutes'
10 conversation with him, and you are told by Biljana Plavsic and by Kostic
11 that all had been prearranged and that Arkan had already on his mind to
12 come to Zvornik anyhow.
13 Now, explain to us what is the most -- what's the version which
14 comes closest to the truth.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, the closest thing to the
16 truth is that they were saying to us, Don't worry, everything is
17 organised. Don't worry, wait for the JNA. There is the federal state.
18 Bosnia is not going to be recognised as an independent state, and
21 JUDGE ORIE: So, therefore, it was -- yes, the second version,
22 therefore, is closer to the truth. You got the impression that when you
23 were sent to report to Arkan and when you had this very brief
24 conversation, that matters had been arranged already and that you didn't
25 have to bother about it; is that correctly understood?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, that is the way it was,
2 roughly. Well, we wouldn't have gone to get him and to ask him to come
3 if we had known that he would be coming.
4 Also, there's another thing. Different communities in Bosnia
5 fared on the basis of the organisation they actually had. Some fared
6 better, others fared worse. I don't know how to explain this to you.
7 Our arrangement was aimed at preserving the former state,
8 Yugoslavia. We believed that the JNA and the federal SUP would lead the
9 effort. At that time, a colonel general headed the federal Ministry of
10 the Interior, Petar Gracanin. We believed that that situation would be
12 JUDGE ORIE: We're now going into details I, at least, did not
13 ask for.
14 Mr. Jordash, I'm looking at the clock. We're well beyond
15 75 minutes. As far as your assessment is concerned, the time?
16 MR. JORDASH: If I could have another 30 minutes, that would
17 be --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Another 30 minutes.
19 Yes. I'm not informed about any arrangements -- travel
20 arrangements made or whether that matter has been resolved or not. I
21 don't know whether you have.
22 MR. JORDASH: I've been informed that, unfortunately, because of
23 the adverse weather condition, the usual indirect flights are not flying.
24 So apart from a 1.00 flight, which is direct, I'm afraid the witness is a
25 bit stuck.
1 JUDGE ORIE: It's the snow, rather, at this moment than the
3 We have a break, and we'll resume at 10 minutes to 11. And then
4 you have another 30 minutes, Mr. Jordash.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Before I allow you to continue, Mr. Jordash:
8 Yesterday, you'll find on the record that the status of D157 was changed
9 into public. That is a mistake. It was about D158. That was the one
10 which was provisionally admitted confidentially, and that's the document,
11 D158, which then changed its status.
12 This being corrected, you may proceed, Mr. Jordash.
13 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. I just want to pick up very quickly, Mr. Witness, on the issue of
15 Arkan and any plan.
16 Now, you've told us about Arkan turning up with federal MUP
17 plates. Was there an assumption at the time on that basis, amongst you
18 and other members of the authorities in Zvornik, that Arkan had been sent
19 by authorities in the federal MUP?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was the federal minister of interior Petar Gracanin at that
22 moment in time?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you hear also around that time that Petar Gracanin had
25 contacted Mico Stanisic, minister of interior of Republika Srpska,
1 offering the federal MUP's assistance in East Bosnia?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you hear about Gracanin sending a different federal MUP unit
4 to Sarajevo, commanded by Chief -- commanded by Mico Davidovic?
5 A. Yes, I know Mico Davidovic. He is from Bijeljina.
6 Q. Do you know if he was sent by Gracanin to command a federal MUP
7 unit in Sarajevo in and around the time of April 1992?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was Gracanin's name mentioned ever in relation to Arkan's arrival
10 in Zvornik, or Bijeljina, for that matter?
11 A. No. They just mentioned the federal SUP, but no one asked who
12 the minister was at the time and who was the federal SUP.
13 Q. Okay. I'll leave the matter there.
14 Now, just dealing with, I think, two last subjects: One, JNA
15 participation in the attack on Zvornik, and then I want to deal with
16 Stanisic after that.
17 Am I correct that immediately prior to the clash in Zvornik on
18 the 8th, there was a meeting in Hotel Jezero involving Marko Pavlovic and
19 members of the JNA?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And the meeting involved General Savo Jankovic, commander of the
22 Tuzla Corps, and various officers, including Tacic?
23 A. Yes, yes, Tacic.
24 Q. Do you know what was discussed at that meeting immediately prior
25 to the attack?
1 A. Well, what was discussed was resolving the situation in Zvornik
2 that was being held by the Muslims, and what was discussed was how to get
3 it back.
4 Q. How to get what back?
5 A. I mean, how to restore Serb authority in Zvornik. It was the SDS
6 and the SDA that were in a coalition at the time, actually, so we had
7 been in government together. And then they took over, and then we Serbs
8 organised ourselves and took over from them.
9 Q. So this was ostensibly a meeting about the military take-over of
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. JORDASH: Now, I want to refer, Your Honours, to 101694.
13 Please, could we have that in e-court. It's an excerpt from a
14 Prosecution expert report in the Perisic case. It's the Butler report,
15 1D1695. Sorry, I gave you the wrong code. And it's page 161 of e-court.
16 Page 6 of the actual report, but I think if we focus on 161 in e-court.
17 Q. I don't think you're going to be able to read this,
18 unfortunately, Mr. Witness, but I'll read it to you.
19 Paragraph 1.3 there, Mr. Butler's expert opinion is as follows:
20 "With respect to the town of Zvornik, the conflict erupted in the
21 early evening hours of 8th of April, 1992, when elements of the JNA
22 336th Motorised Brigade, Arkan's Serbian Volunteer Guards, and local
23 SDS-backed TO units seized control of the predominantly Muslim-populated
25 Do you disagree with anything in that sentence, Mr. Witness?
1 I can read it to you again, if you need me to.
2 A. I agree. I heard it.
3 Q. That these three elements took part in the conflict on the
4 8th of April, 1992; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And then the next sentence reads:
7 "This attack was preceded by an ultimatum issued several hours
8 earlier to Zvornik SDA representatives at the Hotel Jezero in
9 Mali Zvornik."
10 Do you agree with that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And then moving to the next page:
13 "As reflected in a message sent by SDA representative
14 Izet Mehinagic to both General-Major Savo Jankovic, the JNA 17th Corps
15 commander, and Colonel-General Kukanjac, the commander of the
16 2nd Military District, Arkan and local SDS officials demanded the
17 surrender of the town."
18 Do you know anything about that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you confirm this expert opinion?
21 A. Yes. I was present when Arkan called Osman Mustafic, the chief
22 of police, and told him as much. And then in Hotel Jezero, he slapped
23 about some individuals who were present there in order to intimidate the
24 head of the municipality, who was a Muslim.
25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the name.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] ... and another individual who was
2 also a Muslim whose name I now forgot.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness repeat the first name of the
4 Muslim? The interpreters did not catch it.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The president of the municipality
6 of Zvornik, Abdulah Pasic.
7 MR. JORDASH:
8 Q. And the paragraph goes on to say:
9 "Also noted present at this meeting was JNA Captain
10 Dragan Obrenovic, then commanding a battalion of the 336th Motorised
11 Brigade garrisoned in and around Zvornik."
12 Is that also correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. JORDASH: Could we have, please, on the screen 1D1700. This
15 is a witness who testified in the Seselj case in open conditions, a man
16 called Asim Delic.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, I take it that you're following the
18 usual procedure that if a witness -- if the statement or testimony of
19 another witness is put to this witness, that you first ask questions
20 about what he knows about it; only then. But it may be that it's a
21 matter already dealt with. I do not know, but I just remind you of the
22 good practice in this court.
23 MR. JORDASH:
24 Q. Before I ask you, then, about this testimony, I want to take you
25 just immediately before the take-over of Zvornik.
1 Are you aware of events concerning a clash between JNA personnel
2 and Muslim military troops in Sapna?
3 A. Yes. I worked in the police at the time, so I know the event.
4 There was a JNA column passing through that town, and it was attacked,
5 and I think four soldiers were killed and a number wounded.
6 Q. Who was it attacked by?
7 A. It was attacked by the Muslim population. I think that by the
8 time, these were already Green Berets, the formations that they had
9 organised already.
10 Q. And is it correct that this was, effectively, an ambush on the
12 A. In a certain sense, yes, as an ambush.
13 Q. And when did this happen in relation to the 8th of --
14 A. I think it was on the 4th or the 5th of May. I'm sorry, 4th or
15 the 5th of April, 1992.
16 Q. And in the first place, is it correct that the news that came out
17 of this attack was that four or five JNA soldiers had gone missing?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And was there a demand for their return?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Who made the demand?
22 A. The JNA.
23 Q. Do you know specifically who?
24 A. I'm not sure. I think it was the then Captain Obrenovic.
25 Q. Was there a threat accompanying that demand?
1 A. Yes, that Zvornik would be razed to the ground unless they
3 Q. Were they returned?
4 A. Well, some of it that was captured was returned, but I think
5 there were four soldiers --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness repeat the end of his answer.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the last part of your
8 answer. You said:
9 "Some of it that was captured was returned, but I think that
10 there were four soldiers ..."
11 And what did you then say?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were several soldiers that
13 were taken prisoner, and they returned. But I think four of them were
14 killed in Sapna. Among them was an officer. I know that for a fact.
15 MR. JORDASH:
16 Q. Was there then a further demand about the return of the weapons
17 that had been taken during the attack?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did that have anything to do with Colonel Tacic?
20 A. Yes, Dragan Obrenovic was in Colonel Tacic's unit, but we had no
21 more contacts with Obrenovic anymore, though he was closer to us. But
22 Tacic was his superior.
23 Q. So did Tacic then take control or take command of this particular
24 issue, i.e., the return of the weapons?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did Colonel Tacic make any further threats concerning the return
2 of the weapons?
3 A. Well, after the conflict, it was obvious that there were serious
4 threats and that a serious conflict was to follow. Then, what followed
5 was the official recognition of Bosnia-Herzegovina by the United Nations,
6 and that was when all the complications started.
7 Q. Right. So within -- is this right? Within a day or two of Tacic
8 making the threat, the attack on Zvornik started involving the three
9 entities we saw in the report?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, just to complete this: Did Arkan leave Zvornik as a result
12 of anything that Colonel Tacic did? This is after the attack on Zvornik.
13 A. I heard about it subsequently. At the time, I did not have any
14 personal knowledge. I heard that there was a conflict between them, that
15 they clashed, and that this was the reason why Arkan left. But I did not
16 have any direct knowledge of it at the time.
17 Q. What were you told subsequently about the clash and why and how
18 Arkan left?
19 A. Arkan was arrogant with the officers. I think that there was
20 slapping about, a tussle. I don't know what the reasons were, really.
21 Q. Okay. But is it suffice to say that Colonel Tacic ordered Arkan
22 to leave, and Arkan obeyed?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, picking up on a few smaller subjects: Is it correct that it
25 was well known, during the attack on Zvornik, that Arkan's Men were in
1 conflict with the SRS men?
2 A. I believe so, yes.
3 Q. What makes you believe that?
4 A. Well, simply, Arkan wanted those various groups to be under his
5 control, and he wanted all those volunteer units to be under him, and
6 I think that they resisted it.
7 Q. Thank you. Do you know anything about Dragan and his training
8 centre, Captain Dragan?
9 A. Yes. I heard that he had a guest appearance on Radio Zvornik.
10 It happened sometime after my departure from the police in May of 1992.
11 Q. Did you hear about his comments concerning having the support of
12 Karadzic and ministers of the RS, Republika Srpska?
13 A. To the best of my knowledge, he was brought over there as an
14 instructor. He gathered individuals from volunteer units and some locals
15 and tried to carry out some sort of training with these men who
16 apparently did not have any war experience. He was there in the capacity
17 of an instructor. He didn't have any units of his own. I think that he
18 was engaged by those from the Ministry of the Interior of
19 Republika Srpska to train people.
20 Q. Thank you. A different subject.
21 You know about Vaso Mijovic being accommodated in Bratunac; is
22 that correct?
23 A. I know that Vaso Mijovic was stationed in Bratunac. He also had
24 a group of locals with him. There was some sort of clash with the local
25 authorities in Bratunac, so those from the MUP of Republika Srpska
1 dispatched him there as an instructor. I know that he was also slapping
2 about the president of the municipality and of the Executive Board. I
3 went on a private visit to see him, and I brought him some cigarettes.
4 Q. Was it well known, before he arrived, that there was chaos in
6 A. Yes. There was incredible chaos in Bratunac on all levels, so he
7 put together a unit that was billeted in the daycare centre -- in the
8 kindergarten in Bratunac, and he seemingly did introduce some order to it
10 Q. When you say "order," what kind of order did he introduce?
11 A. There was plunder, harassment of the Muslim population, all sorts
12 of criminal acts. The police was feeble, because there was only 10 to
13 15 Serbian policemen, so he put together a group of locals whom he
14 trained, to a certain extent, and who then tried to restore law and
15 order, as far as the war circumstances would permit.
16 Q. And what happened to him after he'd done that?
17 A. Later on, I saw him once or twice in private contacts. He went
18 to Montenegro. I know that he hailed from Bratunac. He married a doctor
19 who worked in Bratunac.
20 Q. So he had no problem in -- let me rephrase that. Did he return
21 then to live in Bratunac?
22 A. I don't know exactly. He left there for a while, but then he
23 moved to Montenegro. So I'm not sure how much time he spent in Bratunac.
24 I know for a fact that he -- his wife was from Bratunac, that he married
25 there, and it was along those lines that he had frequent contacts with
2 Q. So frequent -- post his introducing some order to the place, he
3 remained at times and had frequent contacts with civilians there?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
6 Could we have, please, on e-court 65 ter 4800.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, in eight minutes from now you will have
8 used thirty-five minutes. Please proceed.
9 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, I'm almost there.
10 Q. This is an -- as you can see, a Ministry of Interior of Bosnia
11 and Herzegovina, Security Services Centre, Bijeljina, 25th of June, 1992,
12 request for equipment to the TO of Serbia. And it notes:
13 "The Zvornik Public Security Station, with an active and reserve
14 complement currently numbering around 500. When equipping our members,
15 we were helped by the Republican Ministry of the Interior of the Republic
16 of Serbia, which provided both quarter-master supplies and technical
17 equipment. Since they do not have some of the police equipment, we would
18 like to ask and request that you assist in finding equipment and send us,
19 if you are able, the following -- able to, the following supplies and
21 And then there's a list:
22 "Armoured combat vehicle.
23 "7.62-millimetre or 7.65-millimetre pistol."
24 And then over the page:
25 "A silencer for sniper and AP/automatic rifle."
1 Are you able to confirm that there was limited supplies provided
2 by the MUP of Serbia to assist the police stations in Zvornik, and it
3 didn't include this type of military hardware?
4 A. When we split as the Serbian police station in Zvornik, and let
5 me note that still we were a joint state, Yugoslavia, the colleagues from
6 adjacent police stations helped us, as far as they could, though they
7 didn't have much to share. We would receive a couple of uniforms,
8 perhaps. But as for the armoured vehicles, the police station in Zvornik
9 never had those, either before the war or even today.
10 MR. JORDASH: Can I apply to tender this as an exhibit, please,
11 MFI'd if Mr. Groome has objections?
12 MR. GROOME: We ask that this be MFI'd, Your Honour, at this
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?
15 THE REGISTRAR: The number would be D163, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: D163 is marked for identification.
17 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 One very quick last issue.
19 Q. In your statement of 2008, you say, at paragraph 91 - I'll try to
20 short-cut things - that you were told by Branko Grujic that he had met at
21 least once with Jovica Stanisic in a restaurant in Mali Zvornik named
22 Planina just before the conflict started. Do you remember that comment?
23 A. Well, I said that's my personal knowledge. Was the intention of
24 Branko Grujic to impress anyone, did he meet with anyone, I don't know.
25 He never told me.
1 MR. JORDASH: Could we have on the screen 1D1694, which was an
2 interview with Grujic by the Prosecution. And let's go to page 5 of
3 e-court. There isn't, I'm afraid, a B/C/S translation.
4 We go to the bottom of the page. The Prosecution ask Grujic:
5 "Was the DB in Serbia involved in supplying weapons to the Serbs
6 in the municipality of Zvornik?"
7 Over the page:
8 "Not that I know of.
9 "Q. What about the MUP of Serbia, in general.
10 "A. To the best of my knowledge, nobody interfered. It's
11 possible that they did it through some other lines, but not that I know
13 And if we go over the page to page 7 in e-court:
14 "Did you meet with any officials from the Serbian DB?
15 "A. I only briefly -- I only met briefly Mr. Jovica Stanisic,
16 then head of the DB, but it was a rather -- very brief encounter, rather
17 than a meeting. And it was later on in 1993, prior to the war, we never
18 met, and it was when the pilots actually hijacked in Pale and when they
19 were supposed to be handed over to the Serb authorities in Serbia. So he
20 was waiting for those pilots to take them over, and this is how we met
21 unofficially at Jezero Hotel."
22 Q. Could it be that that's what Grujic told you?
23 A. It's quite possible. Hotel Jezero and Restaurant Planina are
24 50 metres apart, so it's quite possible that I mixed them up and that
25 this was the case.
1 MR. JORDASH: I've got nothing further. Thank you, Mr. Witness.
2 Thank you, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jordash.
4 Mr. Groome, are you ready to re-examine the witness?
5 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
6 Re-examination by Mr. Groome:
7 Q. JF-026, you provided the Chamber with a letter you sent to the
8 VWS. One of the issues you raised in that letter was a request for
9 documentation related to the United States or to the European Union. Did
10 you request this documentation because you believed your co-operation
11 with the ICTY entitled you to it or because of security concerns, the
12 concerns you expressed at the start of your testimony?
13 A. I requested that because of the position of my family and myself
14 in the community where I live. I don't know whether you can understand
15 this, but to live in Serbia as a witness who testified in The Hague is
16 practically impossible; if you want to have a normal life, that is.
17 Q. So can I take from your answer that had you been given such
18 documentation, it was your intention to move from where you now reside?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just check? We have no official translation
20 of the letter --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- whether it is about documentation or because the
23 provisional translation I received, and I just read the last -- and,
24 again, this is not an official translation, reads:
25 "I am kindly asking you to consider the possibility if you could
1 please arrange that my family and I receive citizenship of one of the
2 European Union states or that of the United States of America," which
3 goes beyond documentation.
4 I see Mr. Petrovic is nodding. Is that what you wanted to raise
5 as well, Mr. --
6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Nowhere here is
7 any documentation mentioned in this letter.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Apparently, therefore, we have no official
9 translation. The request was not, as I understand, about documentation,
10 but about assistance -- arranging for receiving citizenship.
11 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. JF-026, if you had been granted citizenship in either an
13 EU country or the US, was it your intention to move with your family from
14 where you now live?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And could I ask you to tell us, the business that you've
17 described in passing, can you give us some sense of the number of
18 businesses that you own?
5 Q. So should we take, from the fact that you contemplated leaving
6 that behind and moving to another country because of your concerns, as a
7 reflection of the gravity or the seriousness which you consider these
9 A. Well, I wouldn't leave that capital. I would sell everything and
10 transfer it there. That was my intention. But I'm telling you, being a
11 witness in five trials and going on living there, that is impossible.
12 Now, how do I describe this? I'm telling you --
13 Q. Thank you. You've answered my question.
14 Now, at several points in your evidence here, you have clarified
15 your previous use of the phrase "Serbian State Security Services" and
16 said that you mention "Serbian Security Services," and we can see the
17 most recent instance of this on today's transcript at page 7. I want to
18 ask you some detailed questions about the organisation you referred to as
19 Serbian Security Services. The first is: Do you know what ministry of
20 the Serbian Government this organisation was within?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, allow me to clarify.
23 This does not have to do with clarification --
24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd prefer if the witness could
25 clarify --
1 JUDGE ORIE: I do not know if there's any problem with the
2 question as put by Mr. Groome. One second --
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] There is.
4 JUDGE ORIE: There is, okay. One second.
5 Could you take your earphones off for a second, Witness JF-026.
6 Mr. Petrovic.
7 MR. PETROVIC: Your Honour, this is not the issue of
8 translation -- this is not the issue of clarification. This is the issue
9 of translation.
10 Please take a look at paragraph 32 of his statement, because that
11 is the paragraph which was corrected or clarified this morning and
12 yesterday. The Serbian version, which was read and signed by the
13 witness, says different from the English translation.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us what it, then, in your view, says,
15 because the witness has corrected several times. We have, in
16 paragraph 32, "Serbian State Security," we have in paragraph 37 "State
17 Security Service," and what is -- I think, as a matter of fact, that
18 where the witness has explained that the reference to the Serbian
19 State Security is incorrect and that it should be understood as "State
20 Security Services," that Mr. Groome at this moment is exploring what
21 organisation -- or what, actually, the witness referred to when he talks
22 about "State Security Services."
23 Now, what is wrong in the basis of that question?
24 MR. PETROVIC: Your Honour, the problem is that he didn't correct
25 anything. This was the translation issue.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay --
2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Fine. Then if we then -- perhaps, could you tell
4 me, because I haven't got the original, what does it say in his own
6 MR. PETROVIC: In his language, it reads "Serbian Security
7 Services," which differs from "Serbian State Security," as you have in
8 English translation.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that's the same in both 32 and -- well, in
10 37, the word "Serbian" doesn't appear, so you would like -- no, 32.
11 MR. PETROVIC: 32, that relates only to paragraph 32.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. And you say it's "Serbian Security Services"?
13 MR. PETROVIC: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Now, the interpreters have most likely found
15 the proper wording of translating that. If you would carefully listen,
16 Mr. Petrovic, that if Mr. Groome uses the words "Serbian Security
17 Services," because I take it, Mr. Groome, that's what you are asking
18 about --
19 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I'm happy to discuss translation
20 issues outside of court. It's really -- I just want to get this
21 witness's understanding of that term that he's used several times.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I see that point.
23 Mr. Petrovic will carefully listen whether these -- if used in
24 English, "Serbian Security Services," whether the way in which that is
25 translated is the same as what you find in the original B/C/S version of
1 the statement.
2 MR. PETROVIC: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Everyone happy?
4 Please proceed, Mr. Groome. And let me just see the -- yes,
5 please proceed.
6 MR. GROOME:
7 Q. JF-026, I want to understand what it is you're referring to when
8 you use the phrase "Serbian Security Services." And my first question in
9 this regard is: Do you know what ministry of the Serbian Government this
10 organisation was within?
11 A. Well, there are several of them. There is the Military Security
12 that is under the Ministry of Defence. Then there is State Security that
13 is within the Ministry of the Interior. Then there is that security that
14 is within the Foreign Ministry.
15 Q. So if I can be clear, there are three possibilities in your mind:
16 A security service within the military --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- one with the Foreign Service or Ministry of Foreign Affairs,
19 and one within the Serbian State Security or the Serbian Ministry of
20 Interior; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, it is those three that I have in mind.
22 Q. Now, up until very recently, if I'm not mistaken, the Socialist
23 Federal Republic of FRY went from that to the Federal Republic of
24 Yugoslavia, to Serbia and Montenegro. It is really relatively recently
25 that Serbia is standing alone as an independent country; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you explain to us why it was you used or you conceive of the
3 term "Serbian Security Services" as an organisation that could fall
4 within the federal government of the Socialist Federal Republic of
6 A. Well, you're a professional, you pay attention to every little
7 detail. As far as I'm concerned, there's the Drina, and on the other
8 side, there's Serbia. Sometimes I say "Serb," sometimes I say
9 "Yugoslav." But if we were to speak properly, all the way up to 1992 or
10 1993, or I don't know, 2000, it would be the Yugoslav services. And from
11 2000 onwards, the Serb services. However, in my mind, it is the Drina,
12 and on the other bank is Serbia. I didn't really pay attention to these
13 details. I said, correctly, "Serbian Services -- Security Services," but
14 if we are talking about the possibility of arming on the other side of
15 the Drina. However, the right phrase for me to use would be "Yugoslav
16 services," because it was the JNA at the time, there was the weaponry,
17 the troops.
18 Q. Now, where was the office of the Crisis Staff in Zvornik?
19 A. The office of the Crisis Staff in Zvornik was in the so-called
20 Russian building, Ruska Zgrada. On the ground floor, there was an
21 office. That was the office of the SDS, the Serb Democratic Party.
22 Because we were a new political party and the municipality gave us some
23 offices to use, and we had our office in that Russian building on the
24 ground floor.
25 Q. Thank you. Perhaps we can get you on your way back home quicker
1 if you limit your answers to the specific information I'm asking.
2 Can I ask you to tell us, what was the Alhos factory, and were
3 meetings of the Crisis Staff held there?
4 A. Yes, now we are speaking about time-limits. We moved out to
5 Karakaj. This Alhos is in Zvornik, and the Crisis Staff had its
6 headquarters in Alhos. It is a textile factory in Karakaj.
7 Q. Since time is important: During what period did the Crisis Staff
8 have its headquarters in the Alhos factory?
9 A. Let's say from the 5th or 6th of April onwards, April and May.
10 MR. GROOME: Now, could I ask that P1380, marked for
11 identification, be called to our screens.
12 Q. While that is being done, sir: Mr. Jordash showed you an expert
13 report by Mr. Butler, in which he put to you a number of the facts
14 asserted in that report, and you gave evidence that you believed them to
15 be correct. One of the facts recorded -- or referred to a letter by
16 Izet Mehinagic, and that is what I'm asking to be called to the screen
17 before us.
18 I ask that we focus on the second paragraph.
19 Now, in the beginning of the second paragraph, the author writes:
20 "Zvornik was given an offer to lay down its arms and the
21 Crisis Staff of the Zvornik SO will make a decision on the ultimatum at
22 1600 hours."
23 My question to you is: Is this the same ultimatum which you've
24 given evidence about a few minutes ago?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, let's -- I want to continue reading on. The author writes:
2 "I do not think that the ultimatum will be accepted, and that
3 this will lead to an unprecedented massacre of the unprotected and
4 innocent population and to horrible environmental consequences as a
5 result of suicidal action by the desperate population. I send you this
6 dispatch as a cry to heaven and an appeal to you to act in line with the
7 most illustrious traditions of the JNA and the most sacred moral norms of
8 our peoples and to protect the endangered population from a catastrophe
9 such as they have never experienced in their history."
10 Now, this author makes a specific request of the JNA,
11 General Jankovic, and it's found in the last line of this same paragraph.
12 He says:
13 "The only solution is to deploy your units from the zone in which
14 they now find themselves together with the forces threatening the
15 population and station them at the approaches to the town, where they
16 will defend the endangered population from the oppressors."
17 My question to you is: Do you know if General Jankovic ever
18 re-deployed his troops to prevent Serb volunteers from entering the town
19 and doing what they did?
20 A. No, the JNA entered town together with the volunteers. You see
21 this paragraph down here, that the town remain a Yugoslav town. That was
22 the core of the matter, Yugoslav.
23 Q. Now, yesterday, at transcript page 41, you had the following
24 exchange with Mr. Petrovic:
25 "As far as you're aware, Arkan's Men acted as part of the JNA, in
1 other words, part of the Armed Forces of the SFRY during this period that
2 we're referring to, 1992; isn't that right?"
3 Your answer: "Yes."
4 My question is: If during that time it was your belief that
5 Arkan was acting as part of the JNA, can you tell us why it was that you
6 discussed the possibility of Arkan coming to Zvornik with Rade Kostic,
7 who you have heard here today the Defence now admits was a State Security
8 operative, rather than speaking with General Svetozar Andric, who you
9 described yesterday as your contact in the JNA and who had provided
10 roughly 90 per cent of the weapons distributed to local Serbs?
11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that the
12 witness's testimony is being presented incorrectly. The witness did not
13 only talk to Radoslav Kostic. Today, he said that he talked to tens of
14 persons, so it is an incorrect quote.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, it's not an incorrect quote. It
16 quotes part of what the witness said. And the question, apparently, is
17 focused on that. Therefore, your intervention was not an accurate one.
18 Mr. Groome started asking about the other 49 -- Mr. Groome is asking
19 about that one, although I tend to agree with you that if we have not
20 identified the other 49, that we do not know who they are, so that -- but
21 that's something the witness might raise or not raise.
22 MR. GROOME: I'll ask to clarify that, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.
24 MR. GROOME:
25 Q. JF-026, did you have a conversation with General Andric about the
1 possibility of Arkan coming to Zvornik?
2 A. You see, Mr. Prosecutor, there is a problem there. We did not
3 know Svetozar Andric at the time at all. Everything seems to be confused
4 here, the entire picture from 1992 to 1995. Svetozar Andric was not in
5 Zvornik at the time at all.
6 JUDGE ORIE: The question, simply, was whether you spoke with
7 him. Now, the answer, if you didn't know at the time, the answer simply
8 is, "No," isn't it?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
10 JUDGE ORIE: If you don't know someone, you can't have a
11 conversation with him. So, therefore, if you would have just said, "No,"
12 that would have answered the question.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Groome.
14 MR. GROOME:
15 Q. Now, at transcript page 36 today, you said, quote, and this is in
16 reference to the relationship with the JNA:
17 "Arkan was arrogant with the officers. I think that there was
18 slapping about."
19 Can you give us your understanding of how this person, who you
20 believed to be part of the JNA, was able to slap about officers in the
22 A. Well, those of a lower rank, and they complained to their
23 superiors. In this way, he also wanted to attain the greatest possible
24 authority among them. Believe me, the way most of them -- they
25 behaved -- the way most of them behaved at the beginning of the war made
1 it a well-deserved thing to have them slapped.
2 Q. I'd like to now change the subject. I want to discuss payments
3 made to paramilitaries and volunteers.
4 I want to remind you of an exchange between yourself and
5 Mr. Petrovic yesterday. This is from transcript page 14:
6 "Q. My question is whether the volunteer units, including Zuca's
7 unit in the territory of the municipality of Zvornik at the time, were
8 financed by the provisional municipal authorities in Zvornik?
9 "A. Yes."
10 My first question is: Do you recall personal knowledge of this
11 fact that the paramilitaries and volunteers were paid by the provisional
12 municipal authorities in Zvornik?
13 A. Yes, I have direct knowledge of them receiving salaries from the
14 provisional municipal authorities in Zvornik.
15 Q. Would these volunteers have been paid up until the time of their
16 arrest in June of 1992?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Were they paid after their arrest?
19 A. Those who stayed on in the army, most of them were returned to
20 regular units after the arrest, and they received salaries.
21 Q. Was that salary provided by the Crisis Staff?
22 A. Well, this is a time-period when there was no Crisis Staff any
23 longer, but there was the provisional government as the successor of the
24 Crisis Staff, and that government provided the salaries.
25 Q. Now, the person you have described as Jekic, was he part of the
1 police detail that organised the arrest of the paramilitaries in June of
3 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, objection. Leading.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, let me just have a look at it.
5 MR. GROOME: I can rephrase, Your Honour, but --
6 JUDGE ORIE: If you're willing to do so, please do.
7 MR. GROOME:
8 Q. JF-026, what, if any, part did Mr. Jekic play in the arrest of
9 the paramilitaries and volunteers in June of 1992?
10 A. Well, I don't think that he played any kind of role. He was a
11 scumbag who went around falsely representing himself, cheating people out
12 of their money, and seeking personal promotion.
13 Q. Now, on cross-examination in the first case, you were asked about
14 duration of the fighting in Zvornik, and I will read the following
15 question and answer to refresh your recollection. And I'm reading from
17 "Could you tell me, please, how long that battle for Zvornik
19 And your answer was:
20 "The actual attack on Zvornik lasted from about 4.00 a.m. until
21 8.00 a.m., so about four hours."
22 Was the center of the town under Serb control by 8.00 a.m. on the
23 same morning, the 8th of April, the day the attack began?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, on the next page of that transcript, you were asked about
1 the number of Serb combatants who were killed, and you stated:
2 "I do not have precise records, but I think the Serbs had three
3 or four dead."
4 Do you affirm that number?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. With respect to the number of Muslim combatants, you said:
7 "According to what the Civil Defence said later on, I think about
8 20 persons were buried, whose bodies were found there after the battle."
9 Do you affirm that number?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So are we correct to conclude from your evidence that during the
12 initial taking of control of Zvornik by Serb forces, there were
13 approximately 24 combatants killed over the course of approximately
14 four hours?
15 A. Yes, that is my assessment.
16 Q. Can you please clarify the following. After taking control of
17 the town on the morning of 8th of April, 1992, and up until their arrest
18 in June of 1992, what function did these paramilitaries and volunteers
19 perform that justified them being paid by municipal authorities?
20 A. In that period of time, they were all mobilised. The army
21 deployed them. Part of them came from a Loznica group and from the
22 reserve police force in Zvornik, but very soon they organised themselves
23 in the following way: They became the main people in town after Arkan
24 and his group left, so they became very arrogant and powerful. They
25 arrested people, including the president of the municipality, Grujic. I
1 know that they arrested even ministers who were going to Belgrade and
2 passing through there. I know that they arrested the minister of
3 information, Ostojic, and that is why they were arrested and accounts
4 were settled with them.
5 Q. Well, in addition to these misdeeds that you're describing now,
6 Mr. Jordash tendered a report about Zuca's unit after you confirmed the
7 events described in it. It has been marked for identification as D159.
8 You testified you were aware of the murder described in the document, in
9 which a knife was thrust into Dr. Vidovic's spine because he sold medical
10 supplies to Muslims. You also recognised the events described in a
11 statement of Dusko Vuckovic, marked for identification as D160, in which
12 he describes killing men and women civilians. Vuckovic goes on in the
13 statement to describe how he questioned Muslim detainees by cutting a
14 man's ear off and nailing it to the wall of the Alhos factory.
15 Can you explain to us: Why did the Crisis Staff continue to pay
16 these men when they were doing things such as you've described and as
17 described in these documents?
20 assumption was that by then, they were already stronger than the
21 Crisis Staff, they had a stronger group. The official proposal at the
22 Assembly of -- the Municipal Assembly of Zvornik was that Zvornik should
23 be called "Zucin grad," "Zuca's town." This was an official proposal in
24 May 1992, so you can imagine what things were like.
25 Q. Now I want to change topics a bit --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, I'm also looking at the clock. You
2 asked for half an hour. Now, I gave a bit extra to Mr. Jordash, so I
3 would not -- without being over-generous, I'll give you a little bit more
4 as well. But how much time would you still need?
5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I meant to intervene after this
6 morning's events. I think I have a bit more to do. I don't think it's
7 substantially that much, but I would imagine I have at least 20 minutes
8 left, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: As matters stand now, will there be any need to put
10 further questions to the witness, in view of what Mr. Groome has --
11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] At this point, no, Your Honour.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has not granted yet the 20 minutes, but
14 invites you to continue, and is seeking further information at this
15 moment on other matters which might influence our decision.
16 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll move as hastily as
17 I can.
18 Q. JF-026, can I ask you to keep your answers as brief as possible,
19 and in this way, hopefully, we can conclude your evidence here today.
20 Do I understand your evidence over the last few days to be, in
21 general terms, that you feared the possibility of being indicted by this
22 Tribunal --
23 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, objection. It's highly leading.
24 MR. GROOME: Could I perhaps finish, and --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may finish the question, and the witness
1 should wait to answer it until I have ruled on the objection.
2 MR. GROOME:
3 Q. Do I understand your evidence over the last few days to be, in
4 general terms, that you feared the possibility of being indicted by this
5 Tribunal, and this fear may have affected the information you provided?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Does the objection stand?
7 MR. JORDASH: The objection does stand. It is leading, and
8 Mr. Groome is trying to impeach his own witness.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, these are two -- of course, impeaching --
10 impeachment often results in then asking permission to ask leading
12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm simply summarising the evidence
13 that I believe is now before us. If I've incorrectly characterised it or
14 summarised it, I'm happy to -- for Mr. Jordash to suggest the question.
15 JUDGE ORIE: No.
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if his evidence so
17 far is presented correctly, it did not have to do only with the
18 indictment being issued against him before this Tribunal. I think he did
19 present some other fears.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let's not discuss this in the presence of the
22 Let me see whether I can phrase your question in such a way that
23 it would meet both your need to find an answer on the question you had on
24 your mind, Mr. Groome, and which would also meet the concerns of the
25 Defence teams.
1 Witness JF-026, in your earlier evidence you referred to
2 accommodating -- that is, to give answers which might be welcomed by
3 those who interviewed you. Did you have any fear that other answers
4 might have a negative impact on you?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, I would be unfair if I said
6 that I didn't fear for my fate. I did, because I am aware of the fact
7 that I was close to these events, and the criteria as to who would be
8 accused and who would not were quite peculiar and odd.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whether they are peculiar or odd or not, did
10 you fear to be indicted at any moment?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: At what moment did you fear to be indicted, and
13 indicted -- being indicted by whom?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was afraid up until the
15 point when it was announced that The Hague would no longer be issuing
17 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember when that was?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that it was announced a
19 year or two ago.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, which would mean that when you gave your
21 testimony in the second case, you had no such fears for certain; is that
22 correctly understood?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, because the indicted, who was a
24 lawyer -- the indicted person, who was a lawyer, explained to me that
25 there would no longer be any indictments coming out.
1 JUDGE ORIE: When did he explain that to you?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he told me at a trial
3 precisely on this subject, and you have it in the transcript.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, although the Chamber doesn't have that
6 Mr. Groome, please proceed. I do not think that this matter has
7 been fully explored, so feel free to further explore the matter.
8 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Now, JF-026, when you refer to this fear, you repeatedly used the
10 term "we," plural, that you were speaking about more than simply
11 yourself. Now, yesterday Mr. Petrovic asked you the names of the persons
12 you refer to as "we," and you said the following at T-9694:
13 "Those were mostly members of the Crisis Staff in Zvornik; Radic,
14 Grujic, Savic, Ivanovic, and some others who I can't remember at the
16 Now, my question to you is: Do you know if any of the members of
17 the Crisis Staff you named were, in fact, or provided information as
18 witnesses to the ICTY?
19 A. I think that all --
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes that it wasn't quite
22 MR. GROOME:
23 Q. Can I ask you to repeat your answer. The interpreters didn't
24 quite get the entirety of your answer.
25 A. I think that all the members of the Crisis Staff in Zvornik gave
1 statements for the purposes of The Hague Tribunal.
2 Q. And did you ever have a discussion with the people you named in
3 which you, quote, "played tactical games"? Did you ever actually discuss
4 with these people tactical games or adjusting the evidence?
5 A. Let me tell you. In 1996, officially through the Zvornik Court,
6 we were told who the persons were who The Hague Tribunal found
7 interesting and wanted to have interviews with, and these were some
8 20 people from Zvornik.
9 Q. My question is actually quite precise. What I'm asking is: Did
10 you ever have a conversation with any of the people that you've named
11 about playing tactical games with investigators from the Tribunal?
12 A. I don't quite understand what "playing tactical games" means.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You used that expression, more or less, yourself;
14 that is, adjusting the evidence to what one would want to hear. Did you
15 discuss those matters, that kind of playing games when being interviewed,
16 with any of the persons of the Crisis Staff of Zvornik you named?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, we discussed it amongst
18 ourselves, but it was not candid, the discussion, because our interests
19 are opposed. Some people got killed, others wanted to downplay their
20 roles, and, of course, it is up to the Prosecutor's Office to establish
21 with whom lies most of the responsibility.
22 MR. GROOME:
23 Q. Now, after you named members of the Crisis Staff, Mr. Petrovic
24 then asked you about two specific people and whether they were part of
25 this group that was trying to put itself in the OTP's, quote, "good
1 books." And the two names he gave you were Goran Zugic and
2 Vojislav Jekic.
3 Now, in paragraph 45 of your statement, you describe Goran Zugic
4 as, quote, "chief of State Security in Tuzla."
5 My question is: Was he also a member of the Crisis Staff in
7 A. He was not a member of the Crisis Staff in Zvornik. Neither was
8 Vojo Jekic. We didn't discuss the issue with them.
9 Q. So you did not have a conversation with either of these men about
10 adjusting evidence that would be given to ICTY investigators; is that
12 A. No. We didn't find them interesting. They were not members of
13 the Crisis Staff.
14 Q. Is this same Goran Zugic who went on to become an adviser to
15 Mr. Milo Djukanovic, the president of Montenegro, and who died in 2000?
16 A. Yes, that was Goran Zugic, who became adviser for internal
17 matters in the Montenegrin government of Djukanovic.
18 Q. Do you know how he died?
19 A. He was killed in some sort of a show-down, and to this day, it
20 remains unknown what the circumstances of the event were. And there was
21 no indictment issued.
22 Q. Now, the other person was Vojislav Jekic, and you've already told
23 us that you did not discuss this matter with him. Do you believe that he
24 was a witness who provided information to the ICTY?
25 A. Well, by happenstance, I saw him here when I was a witness. He
1 testified just before me in Case 1. As I said, the man is dead, and he
2 was a scum.
3 Q. Now, Mr. Petrovic, when he spoke about Mr. Jekic, he said, quote,
4 and this is at transcript 9696, line 1:
5 "And what about Vojislav Jekic, the late Vojislav Jekic?"
6 Were you aware, before Mr. Petrovic used the words "late
7 Vojislav Jekic," that Mr. Jekic was dead?
8 A. Of course. I know he was killed in another shoot-out outside of
9 a cafe in Belgrade. It isn't known who killed him, and to my knowledge,
10 there was no indictment in that case either.
11 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that 65 ter 5874 be called to our
12 screens. It is a media report issued the day after Mr. Jekic's death.
13 Q. JF-026, when the document is before you, would you please read
14 it, and tell us whether you recognise the document as a report on what
15 happened to Mr. Jekic.
16 Do you recognise -- is this an accurate depiction of what you
17 recall about the death of Mr. Jekic?
18 MR. JORDASH: Sorry. Could I object to the general nature of the
19 question, please.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think the question is superfluous, because
21 it's clear what this is, Mr. Groome, isn't it? If you have any further
22 questions on the document or if you -- not on the document, in relation
23 to this, fine, but this is a report dated the 28th of April, 2006, and
24 deals with the assassination of the ex-chief of the Loznica police, and
25 names him as Vojislav Jekic. So, therefore, that seems to be clear,
1 isn't it, unless there's any hidden message in here.
2 MR. GROOME: No, there isn't, Your Honour.
3 I simply would tender it at this time.
4 MR. JORDASH: Objection, on the basis of relevance.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, I suggest that -- do we need the witness
6 to discuss this any further? Because I'm looking at the clock. You
7 asked for 20 minutes. You've taken now 20 minutes. I said the Chamber
8 would allow you to start. We'll need a break anyhow, because we are
9 already 10 minutes over the usual 75 minutes. The Chamber may have some
10 questions as well. We are less under a time pressure now, I understand,
11 because I was informed, first of all, that the indirect flight which was
12 obstructed by snow, that the snow has melted, or at least that the
13 airport is open again which were to be used, and that if you are at --
14 that your flight departure is a little bit after 5.00. So, therefore, it
15 seems that the practical problems do not put further pressure upon us.
16 Mr. Groome, 20 minutes ago you said that you would need
17 20 minutes. How much more would you need?
18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I count 12 questions, but it's often
19 not easy to --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you -- I mean, the time pressure is gone, to
21 some extent. I will also be generous if there is any further question by
22 the Defence which -- Mr. Jordash, I -- if there are important matters
23 which you have not raised because of time restraints, then I would be
24 generous, but within the time-limits of today, and also within the
25 time-limits of -- I think we said that we would stop at 1.30 today, and
1 I'm not going to be blamed again for a late finish by those assisting us.
2 Mr. Groome, let's be -- would 10 minutes do?
3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, there is a portion of the tape of the
4 original interview of the witness that I'd like to play for him. I don't
5 know the precise time, and that's the real -- the unknown. I think we
6 may be getting that information now.
7 That tape, itself, Your Honour, is six minutes and twenty-four
8 seconds. I imagine that would push me over 10 minutes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and I do not understand why you were unable to
10 include this in your assessment 20 minutes ago.
11 MR. GROOME: As you see, Your Honour, I'm just getting the time
12 now. We had problems with -- the copy that was in the system was
13 unplayable. We had to re-digitise.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any way that you provide us with the
15 relevant portion of the transcript so that we can read it over the next
16 half an hour or so?
17 MR. GROOME: I have it here in court, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. If you would take care that the Judges and
19 the Defence will be provided with the relevant portion of the transcript,
20 that might save some time.
21 Yes, Mr. Jordash.
22 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, could I also indicate, for
23 Mr. Groome's purposes, that we also object to the reliability of this
24 document. So that that could be addressed after the break, with
25 Your Honours' leave.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you object to the reliability. Do you object
2 against it being used or -- I don't know what questions Mr. Groome will
3 have in relation to it, and, therefore, I'm a bit hesitant to say
4 anything further about it.
5 MR. JORDASH: No, and, Your Honour, I was just indicating for
6 Mr. Groome to consider that matter so I didn't ambush him with that
7 objection later.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me see.
9 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm confused. Are we speaking about
10 the media article or about the transcript from the original interview?
11 MR. JORDASH: The media article.
12 JUDGE ORIE: The media article?
13 MR. JORDASH: Sorry for the lack of clarification. Yes, it's the
14 media article.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The media article. We have plenty of time, isn't
16 it, to discuss that?
17 At this moment, the Chamber expects to receive the relevant
18 portion of the transcript you'd like to use after the break, and you're
19 invited to limit yourself to 10 minutes.
20 And we'll have a break, and we'll resume at five minutes to 1.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 12.23 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, please proceed. You may be aware that
24 the witness has been provided with a copy of the transcript as well in
25 his own language.
1 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. The way I was going to suggest we
2 proceed in that regard is, after I ask him about it -- was maybe just to
3 play a few seconds to see if he recognises his own voice and then leave
4 it for the Chamber to listen to it at another time, if that's acceptable.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there any -- of course, if there's any
6 dispute about the audio-recording being a forgery, that if the -- if not,
7 then, of course, if you have time, please do so, but please proceed.
8 MR. GROOME:
9 Q. JF-026, before I ask you some questions on the portion of your
10 interview -- your first interview, I want to finish up the topic of
11 Mr. Jekic.
12 Now, it's very clear to all of us in the courtroom your feelings
13 for Mr. Jekic, and you've expressed them in very strong terms. This
14 media report suggests that he was assassinated because he gave testimony
15 before the courts of Serbia and, in that testimony, he identified the
16 State Security Service as having a role in Arkan's murder.
17 Can you give us one concrete -- or a concrete example of what
18 Mr. Jekic did, that you have direct personal knowledge of, that leads you
19 to have such strong feelings about his character?
20 A. Well, the fact that he falsely represented himself, and we knew
21 that in the Crisis Staff. Second, they would take money off people and
22 promise to use their offices with certain functionaries in Belgrade in
23 exchange for that. Whatever he did was outside the law, and the only
24 thing he ever was involved in was wheeling and dealing.
25 Q. Now, you say he falsely represented himself. I believe yesterday
1 you said he represented himself as a member of State Security. What do
2 you know about what organisation he worked for?
3 A. On one occasion, in order to make sure that he wasn't falsely
4 representing himself, we were with a delegate in Belgrade and I went to
5 see Grujic, the president of the municipality. I took Grujic with me,
6 and we went to the MUP of Serbia in Belgrade, to his office. We saw him
7 seated in his office, along with four other colleagues. I told Grujic,
8 Well, you can see very well, from the fact that he doesn't even have a
9 telephone in his office, what sort of a position he has. And then --
10 Q. Sir, just so it doesn't become confused, are you saying you saw
11 Mr. Jekic in a building in Belgrade that belonged to the MUP of Serbia;
12 is that what your evidence is?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. But you say that when you looked in the office, you did not see a
15 telephone in the office; is that your evidence?
16 A. No. I saw him sitting behind a desk in an office where six or
17 seven more of his colleagues also had their desks. So when we came to
18 see him, his boss recognised me. In fact, he was working for a service
19 that was something like internal -- or in -- an inner control of the MUP.
20 Since his boss hailed from Sabac, close to Zvornik, and I, therefore,
21 knew him, he invited us to his office to have a cup of coffee with him.
22 And in order to show in front of Grujic, I --
23 Q. Sir, if I can ask you some specific questions, and it's not
24 necessary, the thing about the coffee --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour, there is no
2 need for him to talk about sipping coffee. But, nevertheless, could he
3 be allowed to finish what he was about to say?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Let me -- I think that he answered the question,
5 and, therefore, Mr. Groome may intervene and put his next question to the
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. GROOME:
9 Q. Sir, when you went up to the office, where you expected to see
10 Mr. Jekic, were you allowed to go in without your identity being checked
11 or were you required to identify yourself?
12 A. No, no, we reported to the reception desk and announced our
13 visit. We said that we wanted to see him.
14 Q. Now, I'm a little confused, and maybe you can help me understand
15 your evidence. If he's not the person who he's represented himself to
16 be, how is it that he's sitting in the office where you expected to find
17 him? How is that possible?
18 A. Well, he introduced himself there an as employee of the
19 State Security. Now, we went to the Public Security. He represented
20 himself as the second or third person in importance in the MUP of Serbia,
21 and I wanted to dissuade Grujic, who was the president of the
22 municipality, of his impression that he, in fact, held the position he
23 represented himself as having. I wanted to show that this wasn't the
25 Q. Thank you. I understand now.
1 Now, the second reason you -- or basis for you having such strong
2 feelings, you say he took money. Did he ever take money from you?
3 A. Not from me, but I know that he did take money from people I
4 worked with -- or, rather, he took goods from a Zvornik factory that he
5 never paid for, and also he took money from some people and he never paid
6 them back.
7 Q. Are there criminal complaints that we would be able to go and
8 retrieve, in which we might learn more about these thefts by Mr. Jekic?
9 A. It is certain that such documents exist. I cannot say exactly
10 before which court, but I'm sure that there are many people that are
11 involved in lawsuits with him.
12 Q. Well, we will file the appropriate request.
13 Now, I'd like to move to another topic, and this is your original
14 interview. Over the break, you were provided a copy of the transcription
15 of that interview in your own language.
16 Can I ask you first: Did you have an opportunity to review the
17 portion that you were provided?
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could my colleague, Mr. Groome,
22 state clearly for which purposes he is going to use this part of the
23 interview so that I would know what his intention was?
24 MR. GROOME: Can I ask that the witness take off his head-set?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you take your earphones off, please.
1 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, Mr. Jordash, in his examination, put to
2 the witness that many of the details he provided in his evidence to the
3 ICTY investigators was the result of seeing the Kula video - that's P61
4 in our case - numerous times. I simply want to establish in this
5 document that there are a number of details here that are from the Kula
6 video, yet I will establish that the Kula video, the first public viewing
7 or display of the Kula video was one year later and it's a matter of
8 public record in the Milosevic case, so to refute that particular
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, being informed --
11 MR. PETROVIC: Your Honour, I can understand that, but I would
12 like to point out the fact that the Kula video is not the only source of
13 possible information contained this paper.
14 JUDGE ORIE: No, of course. But that's not what Mr. Groome says,
15 but Mr. Groome wants to challenge the evidence that most of the details
16 are coming from the Kula video. That's -- could you please --
17 Witness JF-026.
18 Mr. Groome, please proceed.
19 At the same time, to be quite clear, what is in the Kula video
20 and what is said here, I think the parties could agree on what details do
21 appear and do not appear, not -- we can ask the witness where he did get
22 his details from, but not to compare the content of this with the Kula
23 video, where we don't need the witness for that.
24 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
1 MR. GROOME:
2 Q. Now, JF-026, both Defence counsel are not contesting the
3 authenticity of the tape of your original interview with investigators
4 from the ICTY. But, nonetheless, I want to ask you: Having reviewed the
5 transcript of that interview, do you recognise it as the first detailed
6 interview you had with ICTY investigators?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I don't believe I've said the 65 ter
9 number of this. This is 65 ter 5878.
10 Now --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Is that the whole or just the excerpts we were
12 provided with?
13 MR. GROOME: That's the excerpt, the audio excerpt, and the
14 transcripts that you've been provided with, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's two pages, 17th of February, Day 2, Tape 69,
16 pages 7 and 8.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. GROOME:
19 Q. Now, after having read the transcript of that interview: Is it
20 truthful, is it accurate?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, yesterday Mr. Jordash -- do you believe that any information
23 that's contained on that page that you reviewed is the result of you
24 having seen the Kula video on public broadcast?
25 A. Well, this is my statement.
1 Q. Yesterday, when you said to Mr. Jordash that much of the detail
2 you provided ICTY investigators was a result of seeing the Kula video,
3 what details were you referring to?
4 A. Well, if I look at the statement now, and if I compare it -- I
5 don't know exactly which details you mean.
6 Q. Let me rephrase my question.
7 The information that's provided in that excerpt, is that a result
8 of information that you possessed prior to seeing the Kula video or after
9 seeing the Kula video?
10 A. Well, even before I watched it.
11 Q. So everything in that excerpt you knew prior to having viewed the
12 Kula video?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So then let me return to the question that Mr. Jordash asked you.
15 What details -- what information did you provide the investigators that
16 you did not possess prior to seeing the Kula video?
17 A. I don't know. Some persons were mentioned, and I tried to
18 recognise them. I'm not even sure whether I recognised all of them
20 Q. Now, in your answers to Mr. Jordash, you said -- with respect to
21 whether you saw the Kula tape prior to giving your evidence, you said:
22 "I'm not sure. I do not remember."
23 I want to ask you to give additional thought to whether you saw
24 the Kula tape prior to giving the first account of your evidence to ICTY
25 investigators. It is a matter of public record that the first public
1 showing of the Kula video occurred on the 19th of February, 2003, in the
2 Milosevic trial, during the testimony of Captain Dragan.
3 MR. GROOME: So that Your Honours and my colleagues on the
4 Defence can verify this: It occurred on Day 154 of the trial at
5 transcript page 16440. The Prosecution informs the Trial Chamber that
6 the Rule 70 provider of the tape has just authorised the public playing
7 of the video. At transcript page 16451, Captain Dragan states that he
8 first saw the Kula tape after arriving in The Hague. And, finally, at
9 transcript page 16747, Captain Dragan states that on the evening of the
10 day the tape was played, he called Frenki Simatovic and discussed
11 Mr. Simatovic's reaction to what he heard.
12 Q. Sir, the first public viewing of the tape was a full year after
13 the interview that you gave to ICTY investigators. Do you -- has that
14 refreshed your memory as to whether you relied on the Kula videotape for
15 information provided the investigators?
16 A. I don't think I did rely on that. I don't know when I first saw
17 it. I really cannot recall now which period that was.
18 Q. Now, yesterday, at T-45, line 16, you said:
19 "I have never seen them," referring to the two accused, "in my
20 life before this, and so I was interested in seeing them. I saw
21 Mr. Stanisic a few times in the newspapers."
22 Now, after reading that portion of your initial interview with
23 investigators, does that change your recollection as to whether you saw
24 Mr. Stanisic prior to this courtroom here?
25 A. No, I never saw him live. I saw him in the newspapers, and I saw
1 this gentleman for the first time when the indictment was issued. I had
2 not seen him even in the newspapers. I hadn't even heard of him, to
3 begin with.
4 Q. Can I then ask you -- perhaps it's an error in the translation.
5 You referred to the funeral of Radoslav -- Rade Kostic, and you say:
6 "Jovica was there. I saw him then, for the first time then, in
8 Do you recall saying that?
9 A. Yes, I do apologise. You are right. I first saw Mr. Stanisic in
10 person in 1995 at Kostic's funeral. I apologise. That is correct.
11 Q. Are there any other occasions that you saw him prior to coming
12 into the court here?
13 A. No.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the only time that I saw
16 him in person, live, that is correct.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, you know what I'm looking at.
18 MR. GROOME: I've concluded my examination, Your Honour. That
19 saves some additional time.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 Any need for further questions?
22 MR. JORDASH: May I just cover quickly a couple of issues?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There's -- perhaps, if you wouldn't mind, I
24 have one or two questions for him, and often the Chamber is -- so in
25 order to give an opportunity for you to consider the questions as well.
1 Questioned by the Court:
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness JF-026 -- Witness JF-026, was --
3 Marko Pavlovic, was he involved in the arming of the population or
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Did he -- did he distribute the weapons through the
7 Crisis Staff or through the SDS?
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Did they come from JNA sources or are these included
10 in the JNA weapons you told us about?
11 A. Well, he participated in this transport from the Republic of the
12 Serb Krajina and later on from the JNA.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers. I have no further
14 question for you.
15 Mr. Jordash, Mr. Petrovic, who will go first? Mr. Petrovic, you?
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, two questions,
17 and a remark, first of all.
18 As for the time when this video was publicly played, I cannot
19 challenge it. I have to check. I just know that the accused were shown
20 this video considerably earlier. So that is one observation I wish to
22 And now two questions, if you allow me.
23 Further cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] What was the name of this boss of Jekic's who
25 you went to see later, whose office you went to and who you talked to?
1 A. I cannot remember, but I know that the man was from Sabac, and he
2 was an elderly man, about to retire.
3 Q. Tell us, briefly, what this boss of Jekic's said to you about
5 A. I wanted to know what he did, and I asked him -- in front of the
6 president of the municipality, I said, What is this guy of ours doing,
7 since he hails from Zvornik originally? And he said, He is basically a
8 chicken thief.
9 Q. Did you recognise someone else, perhaps, in this office that four
10 or five persons were -- where four or five persons were sitting, in
11 addition to Jekic?
12 A. No.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. No
14 further questions.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
16 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Could we have on the screen, please, 1D1642. And this is, again,
18 a reference -- or a transcript of the same interview that Mr. Groome was
19 referring to concerning the Red Berets, I think. The page that I want is
20 two pages after the excerpt that Mr. Groome showed you.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Jordash kindly speak into the other
22 microphone. Thank you.
23 Further cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:
24 Q. And on page 89 of e-court, page 10 of the interview, at line 13
25 of the transcript, it says -- the interviewer asks you the question:
1 "When you say the Red Berets, what group are you referring to
3 You answer:
4 "A special police group.
5 "Q. Do you mean the group that had been in the news recently,
6 the ones on the DB -- SDB, or are you referring to another group?"
7 And you answer:
8 "Yes, the one who was recently in news."
9 What were you referring to has been in the news concerning the
10 Red Berets at the point you were interviewed?
11 A. I don't understand the context in which I was speaking at the
12 time. What news?
13 Q. Well, the transcript appears to suggest you're speaking about a
14 group called the Red Berets, and --
15 JUDGE ORIE: If you read the previous line to him, perhaps, where
16 apparently the --
17 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, I can do that.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. JORDASH:
20 Q. Mr. Witness, the context is this: You're referring to military
21 action in Divic, and you say this:
22 "Okay --"
23 Sorry, the Prosecutor asks you this:
24 "Okay. Can you tell us, please, which units were involved in
25 those operations and how those operations were carried out?"
1 Your answer:
2 "At that time, I was the director of Autotransport, and I don't
3 know many details, but I know that the Red Berets took part and units of
4 the Colonel Mico Stupar, special -- special forces from Pancevo.
5 "Q. When you say the Red Berets, what group are you referring to
7 "A. A special police group.
8 "Q. Do you mean the group that had been in the news recently,
9 the ones on the SDB, or are you referring to another group?"
10 Answer -- you say this, Mr. Witness:
11 "Yes, the one who was recently in news."
12 A. I don't know what kind of news are being referred to. But if it
13 is the attack on Divici and Kula Grad, the Red Berets took part, the
14 military ones belonging to Mr. Stupar, who then held the rank of
15 lieutenant-colonel, because the military had some special unit that also
16 wore red berets.
17 Q. But with reference to the news, are you able to say at this point
18 what the news was that you'd watched and which the Prosecutor also
19 appears to have watched?
20 A. I really cannot remember what kind of news that was.
21 Q. Okay. Well, let's leave that there, then.
22 Just one question, if I can, about Mr. Jekic. You say he
23 represented himself as a member of the DB, and yet you didn't find that
24 to be the case. Do you know what views he held towards the DB or to the
25 accused, if any?
1 A. Well, I don't know, really, I don't understand.
2 Q. Do you know what his view was towards you?
3 A. Well, he was hostile, and I think that he had some kind of phobia
4 to the effect that he wanted to become a member of the DB some day. So
5 he had these bad relations with people.
6 Q. Did he ever become a member of the DB, from what you know?
7 A. No. He ended up in Public Security. That's where he ended his
9 Q. Do you know if he harboured hostile feelings towards the DB for
10 not making that grade or employment?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Yes, he did; do you know that?
13 A. Well, I saw it on the basis of his comments, that, in a way, he
14 was kind of jealous. It seemed that he wanted to be that that he had
15 introduced himself to be.
16 MR. JORDASH: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Witness.
17 Thank you, Your Honour.
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, please allow me
19 three questions that are based on the questions put by Mr. Jordash, very
20 briefly. Thank you.
21 Further cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, do you remember something that was
23 often called the rebellion of the Red Berets in Serbia in November 2001?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you remember that all the newspapers, all the media, were
1 writing and talking about it for days, who the Red Berets were, who was
2 their founder, what their role was during the war and after the war?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you remember that the late prime minister of Serbia,
5 Zoran Djindjic, went to Kula, to the centre of the Red Berets that had
6 been named after Kostic, and that he negotiated with the Red Berets
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you remember that all the TV stations in Serbia broadcast
10 Djindjic's conversations in Kula for days?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you remember that the minister of the interior, Mihajlovic,
13 and the head of the parliamentary group of the Democratic Party in the
14 Assembly of Serbia, Jovanovic, that they also went to Kula to talk to the
15 members of the Red Berets?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you remember that for days, all the Serbian media reported
18 about that, too?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. No
21 further questions.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. These were five questions.
23 Yes, Mr. Groome.
24 MR. GROOME: Just one line of question -- one question arising
25 out of that last set of questions.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you're the calling party, so that would
2 open -- but I would certainly discourage you to put further questions
3 within, of course, the framework of your duties.
4 Mr. Groome.
5 Further re-examination by Mr. Groome:
6 Q. JF-026, when Mr. Jordash asked you if you remembered what was in
7 the news with respect to the Red Berets in November 2001 or around that
8 time of your interview, you seemed to draw a complete blank. Yet when
9 Mr. Petrovic has given you a really long list of very, very specific
10 details 30 seconds later, you seem to have a recollection. How do you
11 account for the change in recollection?
12 A. Well, what Mr. Petrovic asked me is directly related to the
13 assassination of the Serbian prime minister. That was repeated so many
14 times, thousands of times.
15 MR. GROOME: Nothing further, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 Mr. Groome, just a comment. You may or less blamed the witness
18 in a change in recollection. I don't think, as a matter of fact, that
19 that's the case. Mr. Jordash asked what he referred to at that time in
20 the news he would have seen, and the questions after that by
21 Mr. Petrovic, he asked for certain matters to be shown on television, not
22 necessarily to be linked to what he said in his interview, although
23 apparently you thought that that would be linked. But that was not
24 established, at least not in the questions and the answers to it.
25 No further questions? No.
1 Witness JF-026, this concludes your testimony in this court.
2 First of all, I'd like to thank you for coming. I'm also pleased by the
3 fact that there's a fair chance that you might make it back home again
4 today. There is, however, one matter still pending; that is, the
5 extension of your protective measures.
6 We, as you will remember, provisionally extended your protection
7 to closed session, although reasons were not entirely clear yet. I would
8 like to invite you to further explain, during the few -- time which
9 remains, to further explain to the Victims and Witness Section what
10 exactly your safety and security concerns are which you had not yet
11 earlier explained to the Victims and Witness Section. And the Victims
12 and Witness Section is invited to prepare a report on their discussions
13 with you in relation to this. The Chamber will have to decide whether or
14 not your testimony finally will be with the more limited protective
15 measures, that is, face distortion, voice distortion and pseudonym, or
16 whether it will remain confidential to the extent that it will be closed
17 session evidence.
18 Is that clear to you?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Since we'll adjourn in open session, if you would
21 give me just one moment to check a few matters.
22 Yes. One matter, briefly, Mr. Jordash.
23 The witness was asked to review his testimony in the second case.
24 No one has tendered it, nor have I heard a lot of questions about that.
25 I'm not concerned about it, but that's the situation as it is.
1 MR. JORDASH: We would like to tender it as --
2 JUDGE ORIE: For the other purposes?
3 MR. JORDASH: No, as a Rule 92 ter document.
4 JUDGE ORIE: But you haven't asked him whether he had reviewed,
5 whether there are any comments, if I'm correct.
6 MR. JORDASH: I think that's absolutely right, and that's --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you want to tender it under Rule 92 ter,
8 you should at least provide for the --
9 MR. JORDASH: Well, I got so far yesterday and then the
10 witness --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Well, then perhaps we -- let's see.
12 Did you review the testimony you have given in the second case,
13 the testimony that was given to you?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Did you recognise this as the recording of your
16 testimony given in January of this year?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Did you notice anything which you considered not to
19 be truthful in that testimony --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- whether that was because you find out later that
22 it was not in accordance with the truth or whether it was by any mistake.
23 So do I understand that if the same questions were put to you, that you
24 would give substantially the same answers?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: This matter has now been raised by me at this
2 moment. Is there anything, but limited to this, which the parties would
3 consider it necessary to ask the witness about?
4 Mr. Petrovic.
5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would only like to
6 say that I stand by our position from the outset, which was that the
7 witness -- the witness's evidence, what we heard in the courtroom, is the
8 only thing that should be looked at. Various attestations of his
9 previous statements and evidence I don't think can be very helpful.
10 Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: This is a matter of weighing and evaluating the
12 evidence. The only thing I was doing, where Mr. Jordash had not yet
13 tendered the transcript and where he had not put any questions to the
14 witness which might open the way to admission under Rule 92 ter, that at
15 least we didn't let the witness go, because it might be difficult to
16 repair it at any later stage. That's the only thing that we did at this
17 moment. Any further discussion on admission or any further discussion on
18 weighing or evaluating that evidence is not needed at this very moment.
19 Then, Witness, we most likely will receive a report, then, from
20 the Victims and Witness Section in which they reflect what you explained,
21 as far as your security concerns are.
22 This concludes your testimony. I'd like to thank you very much
23 for coming to The Hague and for staying with us for a couple of days.
24 And I now invite the Usher to escort you out of the courtroom.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE ORIE: We return into open session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
5 Mr. Groome, for next week, I think two witnesses are scheduled,
6 Ewa Tabeau and another witness. Is that --
7 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. That's what I wanted to raise
8 with you.
9 I expect by Tuesday, both will be here, both can testify, but I
10 wonder whether it would be prudent, if everyone agrees, that we go
11 straight to JF-029 and keep Ewa Tabeau again waiting on the shelf, as it
12 were, so that she can be available to fill in a gap, should one arise.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You know that we're in public session, so if
14 you ask her to wait on the shelf --
15 MR. GROOME: Sorry, Ms. Tabeau.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections against that?
17 Mr. Petrovic.
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, by your leave, this
19 would pose a problem to us, in view of our preparations for these two
20 witnesses. We followed the dynamics as they were announced to us, so I
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please see whether you can find any
23 agreement with Mr. Groome on this and see what's possible or not. If
24 it's not possible, of course, the Chamber will have to decide on whether
25 Mr. Groome is allowed to change the order of the appearance of the
2 Is there any other matter at this moment to be raised? If not,
3 we will -- we adjourn, and we'll resume Tuesday, the 7th of December,
4 quarter past 2.00, Courtroom II.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.40 p.m.,
6 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 7th day of
7 December, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.