Page 10654
1 Wednesday, 26 January 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone in and around the
6 courtroom.
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
9 everyone. This is case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic
10 and Franko Simatovic. Thank you, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
12 The Chamber received some information as to how the Prosecution's
13 plan has -- intends to plan the next witness, but I don't think that has
14 any need at this very moment to discuss it. I take it that the Defence
15 teams have read those suggestions.
16 We, therefore, move into closed session to continue the
17 examination of the present witness.
18 [Closed session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
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12 Q. Do you know who Kertes answered to at that point in time? Who
13 his immediate superior was?
14 A. One more time?
15 Q. Do you know who Kertes's immediate superior was at that time?
16 A. No, no, to be honest.
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Page 10666
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7 Q. How do you know he was very, very close to Milosevic?
8 A. Most of time where Milosevic was going on a meetings and these
9 kind of situations, he was next to him always.
10 Q. Right. So your -- I'm not disputing you, but your information is
11 or was that he had a one-to-one type relationship with Milosevic?
12 A. That is my knowledge.
13 Q. And apart from that you don't know who else he answered to or who
14 he employed?
15 A. During that time, I don't know.
16 Q. Right.
17 A. During that time, as I says, that was situation very, very big
18 and radical changes in everyday political movements, et cetera. It was
19 really hard to follow all these things and who is who, who is doing what,
20 et cetera, et cetera.
21 Q. Mm-hm. Okay. Thank you. Just reading on through this
22 paragraph:
23 "Another contact at SUP Novi Sad was Ratko Sikimic, who was one
24 of the deputies at the time."
25 Did you hear of him?
Page 10667
1 A. Yes, I heard for him.
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6 Q. Right. And reading on:
7 "Radovan Stojicic, aka Badza, who was with the Serbian MUP, acted
8 as co-ordinator and gave us guide-lines on what to do. He was the one
9 who said we could go to Novi Sad and get uniforms and equipment."
10 Is that something within your knowledge?
11 A. I know that Badza during that time had a very, very much power in
12 the Ministry of Internal Affairs. And, to be honest, he was -- even he
13 was a deputy of ministry, he was, by my knowledge during that time,
14 working the police. He was above him. He was very, very strong,
15 powerful, and very arrogant.
16 Q. Sorry, "he was above him." Who was above who?
17 A. Above the ministry -- minister. Because even he was deputy of
18 minister of Internal Affairs.
19 Q. Who was this again? Sorry to interrupt.
20 A. Badza.
21 Q. What's the significance of that, him being the deputy?
22 A. He was a very powerful person in the MUP during the time he was
23 alive.
24 Q. Well, deputy makes him the boss below the minister --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- Mr. Jordash.
Page 10668
1 THE WITNESS: By his --
2 JUDGE ORIE: The witness started because even he was the
3 deputy -- he explained above the minister. Try -- first of all, I would
4 like to encourage the witness to very much give focused answers on what
5 Mr. Jordash asks you. And I would encourage Mr. Jordash to carefully
6 listen because the witness was explaining us that despite that he was
7 lower in the hierarchy, that he was more powerful. That's how I
8 understood your answer.
9 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
10 JUDGE ORIE: So I apparently --
11 THE WITNESS: Actually, he didn't need to ask anybody about the
12 decision what he would make.
13 MR. JORDASH:
14 Q. Yeah, so by title he was below the minister, but de facto he
15 was --
16 A. He had a power.
17 Q. And he answered directly to Milosevic?
18 A. Yes.
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Page 10669
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16 Q. And at what point do you say that changed, when the JNA then took
17 a more belligerent role?
18 A. After the military camp in Vukovar was surrounded by ZNG, ZNG
19 people, and they started to attack.
20 Q. So when was that in --
21 A. To be honest, I can't remember the date. It was sometime in
22 August.
23 Q. Right. So in -- by August 1991 the JNA are now, would you agree
24 with this, in command of military matters in the SBWS?
25 A. Yes.
Page 10670
1 Q. And at that point the TO answers to the JNA?
2 A. Yeah. Because everything was united under the one command.
3 Q. And that included, did it not, when Arkan and his men arrived,
4 Arkan also falling under the command of the JNA?
5 A. After that, everybody, as I says, including the police units and
6 everybody, they were under the one command which were synchronising the,
7 let's say, attacks, battles, and acting of every -- every single unit on
8 the field.
9 Q. Right. And the principal men included General Bratic, commander
10 of the Novi Sad Corps; is that correct?
11 A. Exactly.
12 Q. And also General Mandaric from the Serbian TO.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And General Geza Farkas.
15 A. Yes, General Farkas. And there was another general; I think so
16 it was Andrija Biorcevic.
17 Q. -- Bijocevic. Who was good friends with Arkan.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you observe that?
20 A. Yeah, I saw that they have a sympathy [sic]. They went together
21 in hunting sometime, or fishing.
22 Q. Right. Throughout 1991?
23 A. After the Vukovar battle and through -- through the battle. But
24 after the battle they were co-operating very close.
25 Q. Right. Their work during Vukovar solidifying their relationship,
Page 10671
1 militarily and socially it seems?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. Are you able to confirm that Ilija Kojic was injured in
4 October of 1991, early October?
5 A. Yeah. He was hurt, I think so, in the back somewhere.
6 Q. Are you able to confirm --
7 A. Right or left side, I don't know which side of back.
8 Q. Do you know how he was injured?
9 A. Yeah, he was -- he was injured, I think it was in the battle, and
10 he got a bullet on left or right side. I can't remember on this moment
11 because it was long time ago.
12 Q. Are you able to confirm he was laid up in bed for four months as
13 a result of that accident -- injury?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. And Badza took over as TO commander?
16 A. Yes. Zavisic was coming also.
17 Q. Was it the case that -- well, let me take you to your statements.
18 MR. JORDASH: Could we have P2091. 2003 statement, please.
19 Could we have paragraph 19.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, could I ask you whether the wounding and
21 the hospitalisation of Mr. Kojic is contested, or?
22 MR. GROOME: It is not. I'm not precisely sure about the
23 four-month period, but the general fact that he was wounded and Badza
24 took over is not a matter that the Prosecution contests. In fact, that's
25 our theory of the case.
Page 10672
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, there is evidence, we've received
2 evidence, on that. What's the purpose, if it's apparently not a
3 contested issue, to seek that evidence to be repeated? We have evidence
4 at this moment - let me just see - injured during battle, October 1991,
5 correct, up until that time are you able to confirm that he was injured
6 and hopitalised out of action until early 1992. It's true that in
7 October he spent three or four months in hospital. That's what is in
8 evidence. What's the purpose, if that's not a contested issue, to hear
9 that evidence again?
10 MR. JORDASH: I didn't appreciate that it wasn't a contested
11 issue.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, was there any -- I didn't got the impression
13 when we heard this evidence that there was -- of course I'm not asking
14 this without reason, because I never gained the impression that it was
15 something that -- so you would say you seek repeated evidence on every
16 issue where Mr. Groome has not told us that it is not contested?
17 MR. JORDASH: Well, I'd put it slightly differently, which is
18 that --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. JORDASH: I am not really sure what it is that has been
21 alleged against Mr. Kojic and how that is supposed to support the
22 criminal responsibility of the accused. And I'm simply trying to cover
23 every angle and make sure that I establish as firmly as possible what our
24 case is.
25 It's -- much has been alleged by many witnesses about, much of it
Page 10673
1 contradictory, concerning Mr. Kojic, and the Prosecution's case is that,
2 well, as Your Honours know, that they link him with Mr. Stanisic. And in
3 the absence of having a clear idea what the Prosecution case is, through
4 their witnesses or through the indictment, then I felt as though I needed
5 to emphasise when he was out of action.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's -- well, if you think that -- again, if
7 you think that that is the most effective way of using your three hours',
8 as you announced, cross-examination, then -- of which you used two hours
9 by now, then please proceed as you wish. But I have some concerns, and
10 I'm not the only one on this bench, as to how focused this is. And I
11 just noticed that it did not come to my mind that three or four month at
12 the time which was - let me just check - well, I don't know exactly
13 whether it was in the examination-in-chief or in cross-examination, but I
14 had no recollection whatsoever that there was any dispute about that
15 Mr. Kojic had been out of order for a couple of months after he was
16 wounded. But please proceed.
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3 Q. Right. And this was a man called Dusan Knezevic; is that
4 correct?
5 A. Yes, Dusan Knezevic, exactly.
6 Q. And I suggest that the police station in Ilok -- let me put it
7 differently. That he was active in trying to prevent crime against
8 non-Serbs in Ilok --
9 A. Yes, he was --
10 Q. -- those that had remained.
11 A. -- he was trying to help these people, to protect them, but his
12 police officers simply they didn't listen his orders. And my opinion on
13 that time, and I was from time to time arguing with the local police
14 officers there, I was accusing them straight -- tell them why they are
15 doing these things, because by doing these they are going just to do
16 worse, not good.
17 Q. Right. And at that time there were some police officers
18 misbehaving and other -- and various men from various paramilitaries who
19 had been in the region who were misbehaving in Ilok?
20 A. Oh, yeah. They were coming from other areas. They were coming
21 from Tovarnik, they were coming from Vukovar, they were coming from
22 Borovo Selo, they were -- during that time, it was very hard to work.
23 Why? Let's say local police members, during the -- which were police
24 officers during the battle, after the battle they feel that they can do
25 everything. They feel themself like liberators, and they took a freedom
Page 10694
1 even to be above the law. And that was a big problem there. Most of
2 time the commanding staff of the police in area was facing with the big,
3 big, big problems. Even with threats to be killed. Some cases
4 sexually -- some of them they were killed, and it was a very, very hard
5 time. Very hard time.
6 Q. Thank you. Now, finally, I want to deal with the times that you
7 refer in your 2003 statement to the Red Berets.
8 MR. JORDASH: Could we go to P2091, please.
9 Q. Now, you, at paragraph 33 ... and perhaps we can shortcut this.
10 At no point in your 2003 statement do you connect the Red Berets to
11 Jovica Stanisic. Do you agree with that?
12 A. Yeah. I agree with that.
13 Q. Now, you describe them in Ilok and you describe them at
14 Bajina Basta.
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. Would you agree with me that you have no evidence to connect them
17 to the -- to Mr. Stanisic?
18 A. Yeah, I agree.
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7 Q. And what was Bozovic's relationship with the PJM; do you know?
8 A. During that time, that kind of units, let's say, from police
9 which were involved in the war fighting zones, they were as the name says
10 on B/H/S: "posebna jedinica milicia" [Interpretation] police unit for
11 special purposes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: If you -- yes, if you switch to another language,
13 would you please repeat what you said, because the interpreters are taken
14 by surprise if you suddenly ... could you repeat your last sentences.
15 THE WITNESS: Sorry. [Interpretation] Such units of the police
16 that were engaged in combat zones were called Special Police Units or
17 units of the police for special purposes. [In English] That for, to give
18 the exact translation on the English is simply not possible, for me of
19 course.
20 MR. JORDASH:
21 Q. Okay. I think I've only got one last question, which relates to
22 part of your statement, page 68, where you refer to a Red Beret unit of
23 the Serbian MUP in a training camp at Batajnica, near Belgrade.
24 You say Serbian MUP. Could I suggest that the training camp in
25 Batajnica was a training camp for the public security SAJ, anti-terrorist
Page 10698
1 unit?
2 A. Yes. But not only SAJ. Sometime when the people from another --
3 the members from another units were there on training.
4 Q. It was owned by the SA -- by the public security?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Used by others?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. JORDASH: Could I just take instructions, please.
10 [Defence counsel and Accused Stanisic confer]
11 MR. JORDASH: No further questions.
12 Thank you, Mr. Witness.
13 Thank you, Your Honours.
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17 JUDGE ORIE: Now, apart from the SAJ, what other units could you
18 specifically mention that used that facility?
19 THE WITNESS: To be honest, I cannot -- I cannot say
20 specifically, but if it was necessary from, let's say, from
21 MUP Republika Srpska or from another MUP to come people, to be trained,
22 to get the skills and knowledge about the acting in the special
23 situation, with the situation with the terrorists, et cetera, et cetera.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You now refer to MUPs from other entities.
25 Could it also be units, other units, from the MUP Serbia?
Page 10700
1 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, also.
2 JUDGE ORIE: So it could be any of their units?
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then you'll now be cross-examined by
5 Mr. Bakrac. Mr. Bakrac is counsel for Mr. Simatovic. He will put his
6 questions to you in your own language. The need for a pause remains the
7 same.
8 Mr. Bakrac, you may proceed.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good
10 afternoon to all.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:
12 [The witness answered through interpreter]
13 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. If I understand you
14 correctly, we will be speaking in Serbian, won't we. So then let us
15 pause between the question and answer in order to assist the
16 interpreters. So please wait for my question to end before you start
17 answering it.
18 Actually, before I start with my questions, related to your
19 statement, let me ask you something. Until the present day, have you
20 seen the film Jedinica, The Unit, on TV, the one about the JSO from Kula?
21 A. [Interpretation] Have I seen the film, or have I seen the adds,
22 the video-clips?
23 Q. Have you seen the entire film? And if you haven't, tell us
24 whether you saw parts of it or whether you've not seen any of it.
25 A. I have not seen the whole film. I've seen parts though.
Page 10701
1 Q. The parts that you saw, did they include those where
2 Mr. Franko Simatovic was reading a speech from a sheet of paper?
3 A. I cannot recall exactly. I really cannot remember exactly which
4 parts I saw.
5 Q. All right. Could you tell us whether you saw this film before
6 you gave your statement in 2003 -- or, rather, these parts of the film
7 that you saw. Let me be very specific. I don't want to put words into
8 your mouth. You said what you said.
9 A. No. Before 2003, no. No, I hadn't seen it then.
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9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Mr. JF-030, during the examination-in-chief, you said that the
11 weapons came -- or, rather, the weapons came through "skela" and that the
12 police was controlling that crossing at "skela"; is that correct?
13 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
14 Q. And was Mr. Radovan Stojicic, Badza --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us the source, Mr. Bakrac, about
16 "skela"? Page number?
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can do that after the
18 break. I can provide the page number after the break. This was in the
19 examination-in-chief by Mr. Groome, and I think it had to do with
20 paragraph 15.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Paragraph 15, you will see the last sentence:
24 "At that time, no one other than members of the police and army
25 could come to Croatia without the permission of the DB?"
Page 10712
1 So this is what this is about. And then you spoke about that
2 "skela"; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. My question -- since you said that the police was controlling the
5 crossing at "skela," my question is whether Radovan Stojicic, Badza, at
6 that time had the capacity to control and to issue permits for the
7 crossing via the "skela"?
8 A. Yes, absolutely.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague
10 Mr. Petrovic has just given me the reference. The page is 10606 where
11 "skela" is mentioned.
12 Q. So, Witness, sir, we all know very well that
13 Mr. Radovan Stojicic, Badza, from the very beginning when he started in
14 the police all the way up to his post as minister, earlier you said that
15 his importance and significance even exceeded his post, that he never was
16 a member of the DB; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So you will agree with me that this assertion that at the time
19 nobody other than police and military members could not go into Croatia
20 without the permission of the DB does not stand; this is something that
21 Radovan Stojicic, Badza, could have secured, who according to you formed
22 the Red Berets in Ilok and for a time was the commander of the TO; is
23 that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you.
Page 10713
1 JUDGE ORIE: Just to inform you that I've still difficulties in
2 finding the word "skela" or --
3 THE WITNESS: "Skela" is ferry.
4 MR. BAKRAC: Ferry.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Now I do -- yes, I see that. Yes, that creates
6 quite a bit of confusion.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Witness, sir, today you told us that in the attack at Erdut on
10 the 1st of August, 1991, you spoke about Erdut and Dalj, and you said
11 that this was organised, or you said that the organisers or that the JNA
12 and the TO together with Arkan organised this attack on the
13 1st of August, 1991; is that correct?
14 A. The attack on Erdut did not take place on the
15 1st of August, 1991. This was the attack on Dalj. Dalj was liberated in
16 early August. After that, the attack on Erdut occurred. But I explained
17 in the statement - the Defence attorney for Mr. Stanisic asked me - I
18 explained that JNA units did take part in the attack on Erdut because it
19 was necessary to lift the siege of the barracks in Vukovar because they
20 were suffering heavy casualties, they were cut off from the world, they
21 were not able to get medical help or anything else, so then the decision
22 was made to free the Vukovar barracks. But without a contact or some
23 kind of bridge in Erdut, this was practically impossible to do.
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Page 10714
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5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we now have
6 Exhibit P357 on the screen, please. This is a statement of a witness, a
7 Prosecution witness, who was a member of the JNA, an ethnic Croat.
8 Q. You said that at that time there were members of the Croat ethnic
9 group in the JNA. Since it's large statement and I don't have enough
10 time, I'm just going to draw your attention to page 4 in the B/C/S,
11 before paragraph 11. This witness talks about the capture of Erdut,
12 Dalj, and Bijelo Brdo. He talks about -- also can we look at
13 paragraph 14, which states: "In the morning hours, on the 1st of August,
14 1991, a couple of hundred metres away from the bridge, the column was
15 stopped," et cetera, et cetera. And then it ends talking about Erdut:
16 "The task was carried out in the morning hours on the 1st of August,
17 1991.
18 We can see in paragraph 13 the access of movements, the bridge on
19 the Danube, and so on and so forth. Do you agree that we can see that
20 here and that according to this witness from the military, from the army,
21 this occurred on the 1st of August, 1991?
22 A. Erdut was not liberated on the 1st of August, 1991. This was
23 still the territory of Yugoslavia. After the fall, since they were a
24 kind of buffer zone between the two warring or conflicting sides, they
25 were be able to still move over the bridge at that time, as the JNA.
Page 10715
1 However, after the fall of Dalj, things turned around and the JNA units
2 were prevented from crossing the bridge, and there were problems in
3 regular supply of the Serbian population. And this is why Erdut was
4 liberated later.
5 Q. All right, Witness, that is your position. I'm not going to go
6 into that. It's not that important to me. I don't want to lose any more
7 time on that.
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19 Q. Please can you look at paragraph 17 now, please, and then I'm
20 going to put a question to you about your statement.
21 The witness says here:
22 "The same day, I searched the MUP facility at the Erdut winery
23 training centre, where I found huge quantities of equipment, parts of
24 uniforms, a lot of quartermaster supplies, kit bags, parts of weaponry,
25 parts of the US Thompson submachine-gun," and so on and so forth.
Page 10716
1 Which evidently indicated that they fled and that they had no
2 wish to offer resistance. There was a lot -- there was also a lot of
3 personal documents in the facility.
4 So my question is: Was this a facility where Arkan moved his
5 camp?
6 A. The winery, yes.
7 Q. And this statement, this detail from the statement from which we
8 can see that this training centre was first entered by the JNA, and this
9 witness, an ethnic Croat, was there among the first to enter, does that
10 correspond to what you know about the JNA then handing this training
11 centre over to Arkan, the training centre in Erdut?
12 A. As far as I know, yes. He requested that the Erdut training
13 centre be handed over to him.
14 Q. From the JNA?
15 A. Yes, of course. Because all of that was under the control of the
16 Yugoslav People's Army.
17 Q. Witness, thank you very much. We are going to move on.
18 You were talking about the battle for Vukovar and you were
19 talking about co-ordination. Did I understand you correctly that there
20 was co-ordination between the JNA and the MUP in the battle for Vukovar,
21 or between the JNA and the DB?
22 A. I think I said that all had been placed under a single command.
23 The MUP and all the units that were out in the combat area were under the
24 command of the Army of Yugoslavia. The JNA at the time, that is.
25 Q. Is it correct that the Red Berets that were stationed in Ilok did
Page 10717
1 not take part in the fighting for Vukovar?
2 A. Yes, because they hadn't been established. It was only the
3 63rd Parachute Brigade that wore red berets at the time.
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could we seek clarification there on the basis of
15 the knowledge of the witness.
16 You say you know that the Red Berets were there. And then
17 Mr. Bakrac said: "So the Red Berets of the Army of Yugoslavia?" Now,
18 could you tell us exactly what units you were referring to which makes
19 you conclude that the Red Berets you said were there were part of?
20 THE WITNESS: [In English] 63rd Parachute Brigade.
21 JUDGE ORIE: 61st?
22 THE WITNESS: 63rd.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Third, yes. And you know positively that they were
24 there. Any other units?
25 THE WITNESS: During the battles for Vukovar, yeah, there were
Page 10718
1 other units from JNA. They were brigade, 1st Brigade.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Red Berets?
3 THE WITNESS: In some other units also. But with the Red Berets,
4 they were only 63rd Parachute Brigade.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You say the Red Berets you referred to as taking
6 part in the Vukovar battle, you refer to the 63rd Parachute Brigade?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And no other units?
9 THE WITNESS: In the Red Berets, only them.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Thank you.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 (redacted)
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Page 10719
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Page 10722
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8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 [Open session]
11 JUDGE ORIE: We finished before the break in closed session, but
12 we are now in open session. I'd like to briefly discuss the scheduling
13 of today and tomorrow, and I would mainly focus on tomorrow, where the
14 witness is most likely to give his evidence also in closed session.
15 The suggestion raised by Mr. Groome, that is, that you would
16 limit the presentation of the evidence to the last 2008 statement under
17 Rule 92 ter, does this meet any objection in itself? Not to say that if
18 you want to -- in cross-examination, want to spend -- to pay attention to
19 other evidence and test the consistency, that's of course a totally
20 different matter.
21 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, I think I might have misunderstood the
22 situation. So is my learned friend not asking for the 2003 statement to
23 be --
24 JUDGE ORIE: No, that's clear from the last e-mail. Not 2003
25 statement, not the corrections on that, but exclusively the -- if I could
Page 10723
1 call it the Hoffmann paper 2008.
2 MR. JORDASH: February 2008?
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's exactly the reason why I asked you to look at
4 it carefully before you --
5 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, I hadn't understood that it was just the one
6 statement.
7 JUDGE ORIE: At least it is clear to me from the e-mail. And
8 Mr. Groome seems to confirm that.
9 MR. JORDASH: Well, our position is that, as in the past, that we
10 object to the statement pursuant to 92 ter. On the other hand, we would
11 only raise the same arguments we've raised before with most of the
12 witnesses and had them rejected, so we put our position like that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. On the -- I would say, on the usual
14 basis, you object.
15 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, would I like to join my
18 colleague Mr. Jordash in what he said, but, Your Honours, if you decide
19 to accept Mr. Groome's concept, then our Defence will have some questions
20 in relation to the 2003 statement, that is to say, what Mr. Groome is not
21 offering within that package, as it were.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Groome, I think, if you limit yourself to
23 2008, that does not prevent the Defence from asking questions about a
24 statement the witness may have given at an earlier stage.
25 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour, in fact, I disclosed today the
Page 10724
1 witness's comments on that statement as well so they have the full
2 package with regard to that prior statement.
3 JUDGE ORIE: So the Defence can then do whatever it deems fit to
4 do in that respect.
5 Second question: How much time -- if the examination-in-chief is
6 limited to the Hoffmann papers, how much time would you need for cross?
7 MR. JORDASH: I think we agree that we could finish the witness
8 tomorrow.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You could finish the witness tomorrow on the basis
10 of the assumption that we could start the witness tomorrow?
11 MR. JORDASH: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: At the beginning. That Mr. Groome would take
13 20 minutes, well, that often will be half an hour, but that's
14 approximately in that -- okay. Which means that we would not have to
15 schedule a hearing for Friday.
16 MR. JORDASH: Well, Your Honours, I would ask for a hearing on
17 Friday to deal with this issue of --
18 JUDGE ORIE: The other matter. You would -- yes, I can imagine
19 that the matter is urgent for you. We would then have a very limited
20 hearing. I think there are two items which we would then hear. I take
21 it that one of them, the lengthy one, would be in private session, or
22 would you do it publicly?
23 MR. JORDASH: I think I can -- on the basis that we almost
24 certainly won't get into some of the minutia of people's salaries, but,
25 rather, we'll deal with overall issues concerning resources to the
Page 10725
1 Defence.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know to what extent, but, again, I have
3 not -- I'm not yet fully briefed on the matter, to what extent personal
4 financial situations of the accused would play any role.
5 MR. JORDASH: Perhaps the best way to put it is that there could
6 be a mixture, but I would like to do most of it in public session.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You would like to do most of it in public session.
8 Okay, that's fine. Then there's another matter, that is, the
9 continuation of the Theunens matter. I think you have received or you
10 will receive very soon an e-mail in which you are urged to see how you
11 could resolve that matter with the Prosecution. If not, that we would
12 spend time with that, perhaps, on Friday as well.
13 Friday would then be the most likely, but we have still to
14 arrange for that, morning session. Another -- but we have to see whether
15 we can get all the support and whether there's a courtroom available, but
16 I think there would be.
17 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
18 JUDGE ORIE: This courtroom is available. Whether
19 Mr. Stanisic -- because it would be a fourth - you're asking for it - and
20 I earlier expressed, well, the hesitation of the Chamber to push in that
21 direction, and I called it a sensitive issue. You asked for it. It is a
22 administrative matter, although a very important administrative matter
23 which might end up in being more than administrative matter. Whether
24 Mr. Stanisic wants to follow the proceedings from the UNDU or whether he
25 wants to be present is still for him to consider.
Page 10726
1 MR. JORDASH: Yes. He's indicated that he will decide nearer the
2 time, depending on how he is feeling.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I see that. I think that we have dealt with
4 all the issues I ask you to consider.
5 Mr. Bakrac.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you allow me, now
7 that we are on the subject, perhaps it's a bit premature, perhaps I can
8 deal with it tomorrow, Mr. Simatovic asked me the following: If it's no
9 problem for the Trial Chamber, he does not need to attend the Friday
10 session that will deal with administrative matters.
11 JUDGE ORIE: No, I would say that to the extent that the further
12 update with Mr. Theunens is concerned, that seems to be primarily a
13 matter of the Stanisic Defence, and that would take little time. The
14 other matter is, I would say, for 98 or 99 per cent foreign to
15 Mr. Simatovic. So therefore that's understood, and the Chamber will
16 accept that, if he would prefer to be absent.
17 Any other matter?
18 MR. JORDASH: Yes, I was wondering if Your Honour would
19 consider -- perhaps maybe an order is too strong, but OLAD did say they
20 were going to answer our query by -- not query, our application to review
21 the monthly allowance, by Friday, and I wonder if they might be invited
22 to deal with it by Friday morning so that the details can be discussed at
23 the hearing.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I am aware that OLAD is working hard to get
25 information, including information from the Chamber as to past decisions
Page 10727
1 which were -- and that meeting took place in this respect between -- or
2 takes place in relation to this between Chamber staff and OLAD, and I
3 tried to speed that up as good as I could to have this meeting to be held
4 today. I'm not familiar with the details of it, but some information is
5 sought. Let's see tomorrow morning whether this will result in getting
6 the view of OLAD by Friday morning.
7 I'd rather start informally to see whether we can expect that.
8 If not, there's another option, that is, to invite OLAD to be present
9 during this hearing and perhaps even to invite OLAD to make submissions
10 primarily of a factual nature.
11 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, we are grateful.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Would that more or less meet your concerns?
13 MR. JORDASH: Yes, and we are grateful for that. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
15 Mr. Groome.
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, one brief but urgent matter that I'd
17 ask that we go into closed session -- private session, and I think I can
18 deal with it while the witness is being brought into the courtroom.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we turn into closed session, and
20 Mr. Groome will address us when the witness is escorted into the
21 courtroom.
22 [Closed session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 10728
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7 Q. Anyway, Witness, sir, if I understood you correctly, I heard you
8 say that in early 1992 the Red Beret unit was formed in Ilok and this was
9 under the command of Zika Crnogorac and that this unit was guarding the
10 oil fields in Djeletovci; is that correct?
11 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
12 Q. Can you now please look at a document. This is document 2D371.
13 I think you can easily read it in English. You can see it better
14 than in the B/C/S. The Serbian district of Slavonia, Baranja, and
15 Western Srem, government of the Serbian district, it has a register
16 number, in Dalj, on the 21st of January, 1992. Actually, that is the
17 date. And the law is being discussed, the articles are referred to of
18 the law, and this is a session of the government, and the conclusion is
19 that:
20 "The Ministry of Defence is hereby instructed to determine, in
21 co-operation with Pero Golubovic from Mirkovci, the strategic facilities
22 of the electricity supply system and the oil industry and to take
23 measures to provide security for them."
24 First of all, are you familiar with this document? And if you
25 are not, are you familiar with the conclusion?
Page 10731
1 A. No, I'm not.
2 (redacted)
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Page 10732
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Page 10742
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24 Q. Thank you. Witness, sir, just one more question -- or, rather,
25 two to resolve -- two questions that we need to resolve. I'm not going
Page 10743
1 to say that you did this deliberately, but it seems that you testified
2 about some things about which you actually don't have any knowledge of.
3 And you said that Djordje Bozovic, Giska, was the commander of the
4 Serbian Volunteer Guard, that he was killed sometime in mid-1991 and that
5 was when Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, took over the Serbian Volunteer
6 Guard? Is that correct?
7 A. I said, and I could add, that I know that Giska was killed in an
8 action in the fighting in the Republic of the Serbian Krajina, so now --
9 Q. All right. Witness, Giska was killed on the
10 15th of September, 1991. Does that refresh your recollection?
11 A. Yes, yes. I have just had a flash of memory about when Giska was
12 killed.
13 Q. And then these are two quite different formations which are not
14 the same. This is something that can be easily checked by just going to
15 the internet.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we look at 2D386 now, please,
17 where we are looking at a document about the Serbian Volunteer Guard.
18 This has been taken from the Internet, Your Honours. It was formed on
19 the 11th of October, 1990. It was formed by Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan.
20 Q. We are going to look at that in a minute. We'll be able to see
21 it on our screens. So the Serbian Volunteer Guard, if you look, was
22 formed - you will see at the bottom - on the 11th of October, 1990, by
23 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation].
Page 10744
1 Q. Do we have any doubt -- reason to doubt this?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, let's avoid the situation where
3 Mrs. Google or Mr. Wikipedia provides the basis for the questioning.
4 I've got no idea what site this is, but I think that you could easily
5 find 20, 30, or 40 of such sites which would all contradict each other
6 depending on where it comes from. If the witness has any knowledge,
7 let's ask him about it. If not, then let's refrain from asking.
8 Tomorrow it would be WikiLeaks, perhaps, Mr. Bakrac. Let's try to keep
9 this a courtroom.
10 Mr. Groome.
11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I can assist Mr. Bakrac, 65 ter
12 6140, which I was going to show the witness in redirect, is a
13 contemporaneous news article which I think would make the point that
14 Mr. Bakrac is trying to make, and I think in a more appropriate way.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Contemporaneous documents from the public domain are
16 already better than the present analysis on unknown websites.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I agree. I'm
19 just going to present to the witness this assertion and the witness can
20 then answer that.
21 Q. So the Serbian Volunteer Guard and the Serbian Guard or two
22 completely distinction organisations. The Serbian Volunteer Guard was,
23 as I said, founded on the 11th of October; and the Serbian Guard was
24 founded on the 4th of June, 1991. The first -- it was founded by the
25 SPO, and it was headed by Djordje Bozovic, Giska, and
Page 10745
1 Matic, Bale [phoen]. But you testified about two different things, about
2 two different political parties.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please ask a question to the witness
4 rather than to educate him.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Do you agree with me that what I have said is correct and that
7 you testified incorrectly in your statement?
8 A. The information about the formation of the SDG is something that
9 I don't know about, but I did know about the formation of the guard
10 headed by Giska, so the information that I did have is something that I
11 stated.
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16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, any need to re-examine the witness?
17 MR. GROOME: Just a few questions, Your Honour.
18 Re-examination by Mr. Groome:
19 Q. JF-030, yesterday, at transcript page 10649, you were describing
20 how some Serbian MUP officers went to Eastern Slavonia, and you used the
21 term "volunteers," and you told us that the men were still paid by the
22 Serbian MUP. My question to you at this point is: Did these men who
23 went there have permission to leave their ordinarily assigned posts?
24 A. [In English] Of course. Without that permission, they will not
25 be able to move out, to go to some other area without knowledge or
Page 10749
1 permission of the superiors.
2 Q. And what was the procedure for a Serbian MUP officer who felt
3 that he wanted to go to Eastern Slavonia to seek permission? Did he
4 apply to his superior officer? What was -- was there a procedure in
5 place for that?
6 A. At that time it was enough only to say that you are willing to
7 do, you are willing to go there, and after awhile they would say, Yes,
8 you can go. Or, No. Depends on the, let's say, circumstances what for
9 he apply, what are his intention to do, and what is his background, and
10 what, in the basic -- what will be the final accomplish.
11 Q. Then my other question for you is: Today, at transcript page 40,
12 you were asked questions about the training camp at Batajnica, and you
13 described it as being owned by public security; do you recall that
14 evidence today?
15 A. Everything that belonged to MUP, Ministry of Internal Affairs,
16 under the minister of Internal Affairs from that time, they were also DB,
17 public, and everybody, so that belonged to the MUP, all those buildings
18 used to belong, and camps, used to the belong to the MUP, so.
19 Q. What is your understanding of which section, public security or
20 state security, that Rajo Bozovic belonged to?
21 A. During that time, as I says, they were the public security but
22 for it's -- as I says yesterday, it's not so easy to give exact
23 translation of these units. Everything used to belong to milicija,
24 police on that time, by then milicia. "Posebna jedinica milicia," that
25 mean the -- some, like, "special." If you translate it directly, it
Page 10750
1 would be "special." But this is not special for certain purposes, for
2 specialty, whatever they would need to do, or whatever, they were formed,
3 that for I'm saying that everything used to belong to the MUP, Ministry
4 of Internal Affairs of Serbia.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. GROOME: I have no further questions. Your Honour, I would
7 say that with respect to the distinction between the Serbian Guard and
8 it's Serbian Volunteer Guard, tomorrow at some point I would like to
9 tender from the bar 6140 and 6141. I've just uploaded it, so I would ask
10 my colleagues in the Defence to review that tonight to see whether they
11 would object to that. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Would that resolve your problems?
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes,
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Picard has one question for you.
16 Questioned by the Court:
17 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness, I have a question
18 for you. You stated a while ago today that Seselj had no combat unit,
19 that people claimed to be Seselj's Men, but that this was not true and
20 that he didn't command anything at all. In your written statements you
21 say the opposite, on several occasions, by the way.
22 You, in paragraph 34, talk about your 2003 statements. You say
23 that there were a great number of Seselj's volunteers that came from
24 Serbia during the battle of Vukovar. You also mention Seselj's Chetniks
25 in paragraph 31. And so on and so forth. So I don't quite understand
Page 10751
1 what you said here a while ago. There's a misunderstanding or something.
2 Maybe you could explain this to me.
3 THE WITNESS: I can explain to you this very easy. During that
4 time, Srpska Radikalna, Stranka, Mr. Seselj, and all other, let's say,
5 patriotic parties, they were trying to invite volunteers to go to protect
6 the Serbian people in the area where they were suffering from other
7 cessationist groups. When I was saying Seselj didn't command to nobody,
8 that was definitely he didn't command to nobody, but he collect them,
9 therefore they call them Seseljevci. And also --
10 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] If I understand you correctly, he
11 was not physically the commander of these units, but he was the man who
12 had organised all of these units?
13 THE WITNESS: Exactly. He was not educated military. He
14 couldn't command. And also, from time to time, people were coming just
15 to give to themselves importance and were saying, We are Chetniks from
16 Seselj. Even he didn't know nothing about them.
17 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
18 (redacted)
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5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
8 We adjourn for the day. And we'll resume tomorrow, Thursday, the
9 27th of January, at quarter past 2.00 in this same Courtroom II. And I
10 already inform the public that there is a realistic expectation that we
11 would hear the testimony of the next witness in closed session.
12 We stand adjourned.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 27th day
15 of 2011, at 2.15 p.m.
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