Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12624

 1                           Tuesday, 12 July 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Mr. Jordash, the Chamber was informed that you would like to

11     raise a matter.  I don't know whether it should be done in private

12     session or in open session.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Open session is okay, I think, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

15             MR. JORDASH:  It's a very straightforward issue.  It's a request

16     for a more detailed medical note from Dr. Eekhof.  And the reason for the

17     request is that I've observed, at least, that the court schedule is

18     challenging for Mr. Stanisic and he certainly is exhausted after hearings

19     and exhausted during the days that we do not sit.  Now, I don't know if

20     that's medically significant or not and I make to pretense that I can

21     assess that, and I equally do not suggest that Mr. Stanisic is saying at

22     this stage that he cannot cope, but certainly he has noticed the effects

23     of the court schedule.  And for the -- out of abundance of caution, I

24     would respectfully request that Dr. Eekhof at least address whether the

25     tiredness, whether the fatigue, whether the increase in difficult

Page 12625

 1     symptoms is medically significant or not.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, it's -- we'll pay attention to it.  We'll

 3     think about it and we'll see what -- how to phrase the additional

 4     questions for Dr. Eekhof if we would decide that we would put additional

 5     questions to him.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, what you told us -- of course, if we

 8     read the regular reports, you see that sometimes there are small

 9     fluctuations.  Although they're relatively steady, it's not always the

10     same.  I noticed that you approach the matter in a rather broad way and

11     not saying especially his left leg causes him more concerns the last week

12     or, I mean, so we'll deal with the matter in the way you approached it

13     and that's what we'll orient ourselves upon.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Could I perhaps add this: that Mr. Stanisic takes

15     pain relief, and what I've mainly observed is that he's taking more of

16     that pain relief.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a very concrete matter which we could include

18     if we put any additional questions to Dr. Eekhof.  Yes.

19             Any other specific matter?  Apart from feeling exhausted,

20     apparently it's your suggestion that there may be a medically significant

21     extra burden upon him at this moment which exhausts him.  That's -- the

22     pain relief, of course, is a very concrete aspect.  Is there any other

23     such concrete element which you could mention so that we don't forget to

24     specifically address that?

25             MR. JORDASH:  I think it's the pain relief which is significant

Page 12626

 1     because, as you know, Mr. Stanisic has a number of complaints and

 2     sometimes the pain emanates from one and not the other and the next day

 3     it's changed.  What we would find useful is a comment on why there has

 4     been or if there has been an increase, and, two, whether in fact that

 5     pain relief affects Mr. Stanisic's ability to concentrate, because some

 6     of that pain relief from a layperson's point of view is medication which

 7     one wouldn't want to take on too regular a basis.  And I particularly

 8     refer to morphine which Mr. Stanisic takes on occasion.  I think that's

 9     when the pain is particularly significant.  And as I say, from a

10     layperson's point of view, morphine sounds relatively serious, and

11     relatively serious in the sense of being able to focus and concentrate on

12     complex court proceedings.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you say apart from pain relief it may have side

14     effects.

15             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I just asked you to be as concrete as

17     possible so that we would not overlook any matter when considering your

18     request.  Thank you for that.

19             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             MS. MARCUS:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.  Just to request that

22     we would have an opportunity to propose some questions as well that we

23     also have for the doctor, with the Chamber's leave of course.  We could

24     do that in whatever format Your Honour sees fit.  We can do it by e-mail

25     informally, in any way.

Page 12627

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will consider in which format, if any

 2     questions are put to Dr. Eekhof, and what format that would be done and

 3     whether we would consult the parties.  Of course we've heard from

 4     Mr. Jordash what his concerns are and why he would like to ask a more

 5     thorough report on Dr. Eekhof.  If you have similar suggestions or

 6     questions, then I think the earlier it comes to the Chamber ...

 7             I can even imagine that you put one or two or three things on

 8     paper, send an e-mail, copy the Chamber on it so that Mr. Jordash is

 9     informed, and we would then -- we would be able to consider whether to

10     include it, yes or no.

11             MS. MARCUS:  We will do that, Your Honour.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then a few other matters, not too much.

13             Mr. Jordash, I think that you still owe us further information in

14     relation to D56.  That's what you promised more or less, I think,

15     yesterday.

16             MR. JORDASH:  I do.  And if Your Honours would just indulge us a

17     little until the break and then I will obtain what information there is.

18     I do apologise.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'll wait for that.

20             Then finally the other matter is, Mr. Jordash, the Stanisic

21     Defence was granted leave on the 4th of July to reply to the

22     Prosecution's response to the Defence motion for admission of 92 ter

23     material for Witness DST-035.  I think that we have not seen anything, is

24     it?

25             MR. JORDASH:  I think that's absolutely right, and I apologise

Page 12628

 1     for that also.  And we can put together a reply by tomorrow because it

 2     goes to, in substance, what was in the application to reply.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you would be out of the time-limit,

 4     wouldn't you, I mean, to do it tomorrow?  Rule 126 bis:  Unless otherwise

 5     ordered, a motion filed by a party shall be filed within 14 days -- a

 6     response be filed within 14 days.  A reply to the response, if any, shall

 7     be filed within seven days of the filing of the response, with the leave

 8     of the relevant Chamber.  So the time-limit is set in general terms

 9     there.  Leave has been granted on the 4th of July, and let's not argue

10     about whether we should start counting from the 4th or whether we should

11     start counting from the 29th of June when the response was filed.  In

12     both cases we are beyond the seven days.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I can only apologise, it was an

14     administrative oversight, and request that Your Honours ...

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So perhaps if you want to file something tomorrow,

16     then perhaps it would be good to address also the late filing and that

17     you perhaps ask - I'm not in any way anticipating on what a decision

18     would be - but to -- I even add to that, if you want to have a longer

19     time-limit, that usually you should ask that within the time available to

20     respond and not to do it afterwards.  But I leave it in your hands.  But

21     just to bring to your attention that there may well be a problem and

22     we'll see what you do with it and then you'll see what we are going to do

23     with it.  Yes?

24             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  These were the matters I wanted to draw the

Page 12629

 1     attention of the parties to.

 2             Next witness, Mr. Jordash, without protective measures?

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Without protective measures, Mr. Bosnic.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could the witness be escorted into the

 5     courtroom.

 6                           [The witness entered court]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Bosnic.  Can you hear me in a

 8     language you understand?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Yes,

10     I can.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and

12     Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration of which the text

13     will now be handed out to you.  May I invite you to make that solemn

14     declaration.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17                           WITNESS:  MILE BOSNIC

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Bosnic.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bosnic, I think it should be made a tiny little

22     bit shorter, perhaps.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now it's all right.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bosnic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Jordash.

25     Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.

Page 12630

 1             Mr. Jordash, you may proceed.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 3                           Examination by Mr. Jordash:

 4        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Bosnic.

 5        A.   Good afternoon.

 6        Q.   Could you state your full name and date of birth for the record,

 7     please.

 8        A.   Mile Bosnic, son of Milivoj, born on the 30th of October, 1958,

 9     in Virovitica, Republic of Croatia.

10        Q.   And your ethnic origin is?

11        A.   Serb.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Now could we have on the screen, please, 1D4902.

13        Q.   What's going to come up on the screen in front of you,

14     Mr. Bosnic, is a statement.  Would you have a look at the front of the

15     statement, and do you recognise the signature?

16        A.   Yes, it's mine.

17        Q.   Were you interviewed on the 21st of September, 2006; 17th and

18     20th of May, 2011; 1st of June, 2011?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   If we just go to the next page of the statement, just to ensure

21     that you recognise this.  Do you recall giving this statement to the

22     Stanisic Defence on the dates which we've just discussed?

23        A.   Yes, and you can see my signature, my last name, with which I

24     initialled the pages.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Have you had an opportunity prior to attending court

Page 12631

 1     today to carefully review this statement?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Could we please have on the screen 1D4914.  Sorry,

 4     no, 1D4916.

 5        Q.   When you reviewed this statement which we've just seen on the

 6     screen, did you make any amendments to that statement on the

 7     8th of July, 2011?

 8        A.   The text is in English, so ...

 9        Q.   Let me just see if there is B/C/S, Mr. Bosnic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  It apparently is not in e-court.

11             MR. JORDASH:

12        Q.   Apparently there is no B/C/S so we'll have to go through them

13     orally.  Do you recall making amendments to your statement on the

14     8th of July, Mr. Bosnic?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, is there a B/C/S version anywhere?

16             MR. JORDASH:  No, apparently not.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently not.

18             MR. JORDASH:  No.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Have we checked whether the witness

20     reads any English?

21             MR. JORDASH:  I'm fairly sure he doesn't, but I'll ask.

22        Q.   Do you read any English, Mr. Bosnic?

23        A.   Well, no, I can't.  I don't understand English.  I can skim

24     through the text.  I do know that I supplemented the statement.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's see whether we can find a -- you said you

Page 12632

 1     supplemented the statement.  Have you ever seen or was the result of your

 2     amendments ever discussed with you?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  I was present and

 4     dictated these amendments myself.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, I do not know to what extent every

 6     single amendment is relevant now already for your examination-in-chief.

 7     Is there any way that, for example, with someone -- you may have someone

 8     available who could translate the amendments to him so that the witness

 9     can report to us, for example, after the first break, that what was

10     translated to him is -- reflects the amendments he wished to make?

11             MR. JORDASH:  That's -- I think we can --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  But, of course, if there's any paragraph changed on

13     which you would like to specifically deal with certain matters, then of

14     course you would have to deal with those amendments immediately.

15             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.  I think we can proceed as Your Honour

16     suggests.  And if there is a problem, then I'll deal with the amendment

17     orally, but I don't think there will be.  And the amendments are not in

18     the main critical to his testimony.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And I'd like that to be done if possible during the

20     first break so that the Prosecution is not later suffering from any

21     challenge to the amendments that are put on paper.

22             MR. JORDASH:

23        Q.   We'll return to this later on, Mr. Bosnic.  Let's now turn to

24     1D4914.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus.

Page 12633

 1             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, I'm sorry to interrupt.  I was just waiting to

 2     see what was going to be pulled up.  With respect to the 92 ter

 3     statement, the 92 ter filing included the draft English version, unsigned

 4     and undated, if I'm not mistaken, with draft on top not reviewed by

 5     witness and not signed.  But the B/C/S version was signed in the motion.

 6     So I just would like it to be clarified, and that's why I'm mentioning it

 7     now, when we turn back to the amendments, whether the amendments were

 8     made into the B/C/S version; so does the B/C/S version differ from the

 9     English version or is the B/C/S signed version identical to the English

10     unsigned version?  In other words, we'd like to know which version

11     incorporates the proofing note of 8th July and, et cetera, we'd like to

12     know which version is what.  Thank you.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Both the B/C/S statement and the English statement

14     are the same.  The amendments which were made with reference to the B/C/S

15     statement were put into this chart, so the English and the B/C/S

16     statement are the same.

17             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you.

18             MR. JORDASH:

19        Q.   Do you recall, Mr. Bosnic, being shown a number of exhibits or

20     documents and being asked to go through them and make your comments in a

21     chart?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. JORDASH:  If we can go to the bottom of the page of the

24     chart.  A bit further, please, so we can see the initials.

25        Q.   Do you recognise the initials?

Page 12634

 1        A.   Yes, they are mine.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And do you recognise the chart and the documents discussed

 3     or the documents listed on the left column and the comments on the right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Did you have a chance to review your comments before coming to

 6     court today?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And did you make any clarifications or corrections that you wish

 9     to make?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And the comments that you made, did they accord with the truth?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. JORDASH:  May this chart be tendered as an exhibit,

14     Your Honours, please.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I suggest that the -- that the

16     92 ter statement will be MFI'd for the time being because it may still be

17     subject to amendments, and the same would be done for the proofing notes.

18             And, Ms. Marcus, any objection against admission of the chart,

19     the chart which gives the comments of the witness?

20             MS. MARCUS:  No objections, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

22             Madam Registrar, first, the 92 ter statement would receive

23     number ...

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Number D313, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  D313 is marked for identification.

Page 12635

 1             The proofing notes ...

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  D314, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  -- is marked for identification.

 4             And then the chart containing comments of the witness on various

 5     documents ...

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  D315, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  D315 is admitted into evidence.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. JORDASH:

10        Q.   Now, let me take you -- well, before I do that, what is your

11     current occupation?

12        A.   I have a degree in political science.

13        Q.   Now, let me take you to --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, a degree is as far -- is not an

15     occupation but is a title.  What is the present occupation of the

16     witness; that question has not been answered.

17             Could you tell us what your occupation is at this moment.  Do you

18     have a job, are you ...

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am unemployed at present.  I was

20     supposed to attend an interview, a job interview, just before coming

21     here.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  What was your last job, could you tell us, when and

23     what?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 2001 I was employed in the

25     commodity reserves in Banja Luka, commodity reserves of Republika Srpska.

Page 12636

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And you stayed in that job until ...

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Roughly a year.  A year and ten

 3     months.  Or, my apologies, what I meant was a year and roughly ten days.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Briefly, where were you born and where did you grow up?

 7        A.   I was born in Virovitica and I grew up in Podravska Slatina,

 8     where I completed my secondary education.  It's a small town in the

 9     Republic of Croatia.

10        Q.   And in 1990 where did you live?

11        A.   In Velika Kladusa, Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12        Q.   And as we can see from your statement you were politically active

13     during the -- before and during the war in Croatia; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now, to assist the Trial Chamber, I want to ask you to look at a

16     map and indicate on the map the locations where you were politically

17     active so that the Trial Chamber can see where your evidence is going to

18     encompass or what your evidence is going to encompass.

19             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have P258.  And could Mr. Bosnic be given

20     a pen so that he can draw on the map.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's very small.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  It can be enlarged.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please.

24             MR. JORDASH:  Can we go to page 2, perhaps that's the best way.

25     I think that might be a more appropriate map.  Yes.

Page 12637

 1        Q.   Would you indicate, please -- perhaps I can give you some

 2     guidance here.  First, Slunj.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   Velika Kladusa.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   Petrinja.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   Pakrac.

 9        A.   I was not in Pakrac in 1991 but later, but I can mark it

10     nevertheless.

11        Q.   Okay.  Mark it then, please.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   Plitvice, please.  Plitvice.

14        A.   We don't have Plitvice depicted here but there are between Slunj

15     and Korenica.

16        Q.   Knin.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   Vojnic.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   Vrginmost.

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   Petrova Gora.

23        A.   Petrova Gora is between Vojnic and Vrginmost; it's a mountain.

24        Q.   Golubic.

25        A.   It is somewhere on the way out of Knin in the direction of

Page 12638

 1     Grahovo and the village of Strmica.  I can't tell, really, but roughly

 2     here.  I can't give you the exact location.  At any rate, it's on the way

 3     out of Knin in the direction of Bosnia-Herzegovina, specifically Grahovo

 4     and the village of Strmica.

 5        Q.   Glina.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   Veljun.

 8        A.   It is on the territory of the municipality of Slunj.  We don't

 9     have it depicted.  It's somewhere here.

10        Q.   Plaski.

11        A.   Plaski is between Slunj and Ogulin.  Roughly here.

12        Q.   And Bruska.

13        A.   I don't know.  Bruska is somewhere near Benkovac.  I was there,

14     but I can't give you the exact location.

15        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Mr. Bosnic, would you like to adjust your

16     headphones?  It's a long afternoon to be holding your headphones.

17        A.   I'm trying to.  I'm doing my best, but I keep taking my glasses

18     off so I -- I'll be able to adjust them on occasion, no problem there,

19     but I do hear everything you say.  If I don't, I'll let you know.

20        Q.   Okay.

21             MR. JORDASH:  May I tender this as an exhibit.  I don't know if

22     it's assisted Your Honours at all, but I hope it --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think the most practical way would have been

24     to prepare such a map, to agree with the Prosecution where the places

25     are, and then to give it.  That takes -- instead of six or seven minutes,

Page 12639

 1     takes half a minute.  And apart from that, of course, some of these

 2     locations may be well known.  But that might be different for various

 3     judges.  But it's typically a matter on which you could easily agree, I

 4     think, where Slunj is and where Petrova Gora is.  So that would have been

 5     more practical, but ...

 6             No objections?

 7             MS. MARCUS:  No objections, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the marked map would receive

 9     number ...

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Number D316, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  D316 is admitted into evidence.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Could we please have D313, your statement, on the

13     screen, please.

14        Q.   Now, let's go to paragraph 2.  This statement is now before the

15     Court, Mr. Bosnic, and I want to ask you to elaborate on some aspects of

16     it.  Paragraph 2 is where you discuss becoming politically active from

17     the end of May 1990.  You established a local SDS board in Kordun.  Was

18     this the only local SDS board being formed at the time or was this part

19     of a process?

20        A.   At the time, it was the only SDS board in Kordun.

21        Q.   And other places within Croatia?

22        A.   Yes, mainly in Lika and Northern Dalmatia.

23        Q.   And what was the process by which the local SDS board was formed?

24        A.   The Serbs in other areas except for Lika and Northern Dalmatia

25     voted for Racan's party, the Alliance of Communists of Croatia, the

Page 12640

 1     Social Democratic Party, because that party accepted the constitutional

 2     status of the Serb people and agreed to Croatia remaining in the federal

 3     union.  That's why most of the Serbs voted at the elections for

 4     Ivica Racan's party, and it was, in fact, 21 Serbs who became MPs on his

 5     ticket.  However, subsequently when this party agreed to the policy

 6     pushing for Croatia's independence, that was when SDS boards started

 7     being set up across Croatia.

 8        Q.   And what was the political agenda of the SDS in May of 1990 and

 9     subsequently when other municipalities began to arrange SDS boards?

10        A.   The key issue of the SDS political agenda was that should Croatia

11     remain in Yugoslavia, we would agree to a certain degree of autonomy

12     within Croatia.  However, if Croatia decides to withdraw from Yugoslavia,

13     we, as the second largest constituent people in Croatia, express our

14     desire to remain within Yugoslavia.

15        Q.   At what stage or at what point in time did you first meet

16     Milan Babic?

17        A.   I first met Milan Babic before a rally of the SDS held in a place

18     called Srb in July of 1990.  That was when I met him in person.  But I

19     apologise, I do have to mention the fact that we were together attending

20     a number of meetings as well.

21        Q.   Before you met him in Srb in July of 1990?

22        A.   Yes.  I attended meetings that he too attended, but we didn't

23     have a direct contact.

24        Q.   And in which capacity were you attending those meetings and in

25     which capacity was he?

Page 12641

 1        A.   I attended them as a member of the SDS Main Board.  Every

 2     representative of a newly-established local board became a member of the

 3     Main Board, and Babic by that time was already a member of the

 4     Main Board.  I think he was in fact vice-president of the party or the

 5     president of the Executive Board.

 6        Q.   So the Main Board of the SDS consisted of the leaders of the

 7     local boards, and you just mention now that Babic was, you thought, may

 8     be the vice-president of the party, you mean the SDS party?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And the Executive Board was what?

11        A.   The Executive Board was the executive body of the Main Board.  It

12     operated in the field in networking various local boards and preparing

13     the material to be discussed by the Main Board.  In other words, it was

14     an executive body of the Main Board.

15        Q.   And by the time you met Babic in July of 1990, what was Babic's

16     position, can you remember?

17        A.   He was the mayor.  In other words, the president of the

18     municipality of Knin.

19        Q.   And what position did he told in the SDS party?

20        A.   He was one of the five leaders.

21        Q.   And what position, if any, did he occupy in the Executive Board

22     of the Main Board?

23        A.   I think he was president.

24        Q.   And the other four leaders of the SDS party were whom?

25        A.   The disputable leader at that moment was Professor Raskovic.

Page 12642

 1     Then Zelenbaba, Jovo Opacic.  I cannot recall the other names, but there

 2     were 19 founders, some of whom were already mayors, were presidents of

 3     municipalities.

 4        Q.   And during 1990, having met Babic in July of 1990, how many times

 5     and in which circumstances were you meeting Mr. Babic?

 6        A.   There were many instances.  The meetings of the Main Board were

 7     held every seven or 15 days, depending on the development of the

 8     situation in the field and depending on the actual needs.

 9        Q.   And did you have a role within the Main Board other than

10     attending as a leader of a local board?

11        A.   I was just a member of the Main Board, but I was also in charge

12     for the area -- of the area from which I came within the Main Board.

13        Q.   How many members were in the Main Board?

14        A.   The number changed, but 150, roughly.

15        Q.   And as a member of a local board attending the Main Board,

16     function did you play?  What did you do when you attended?  What happened

17     at the meetings?

18        A.   We discussed further policy moves of the party.  First of all,

19     what would be done, what would be the course of action where the SDS was

20     already in power, in those places; and secondly, what was to be

21     specifically done in order for the SDS to take over power in those

22     municipalities where it was not in power.

23        Q.   Was there a voting process?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And what was the nature of the voting process?

Page 12643

 1        A.   It would be a show of hands.  And if a decision was adopted by

 2     the majority, it would be a binding decision upon the leadership of the

 3     SDS as well as upon the local authorities, i.e., the mayors, of course

 4     depending on the nature of the specific decision.

 5        Q.   Was there any circumstances where there wasn't a need for a

 6     majority, where one person or a group of people could outvote the

 7     majority?

 8        A.   Yes, there were circumstances, and this did happen occasionally.

 9        Q.   Can you give an example, please.

10        A.   For instance, when there was a difference of opinions as to

11     whether to go to the elections in Serbia or not, Professor Raskovic was

12     in favour of the SDS being part of the elections in Serbia, and

13     Professor Raskovic was outvoted.  In fact, he, Zelenbaba, and Jovo Opacic

14     walked out of the decision at a certain point and this led to strife in

15     the party and the leaving of the party by the two last-mentioned

16     gentlemen.

17        Q.   But the question I asked was whether there were circumstances

18     where the majority could be outvoted or whether, in fact, it was --

19     issues were always decided by majority voting.

20        A.   To the best of my knowledge, yes.

21        Q.   To the best of your knowledge was there always majority voting or

22     not?

23        A.   If you mean whether mistakes could have been made in the counting

24     or if a problem could have arisen in connection with a counting, yes,

25     that was possible because the hands were counted.

Page 12644

 1        Q.   Mr. Bosnic, it's probably me, but let me just try once more.

 2     When an issue went to the vote, how was it decided?  Was it by majority

 3     voting or were there other ways in which an issue could be decided?

 4        A.   I think that I already answered this.  The proposition, the

 5     proposal, which received a majority of votes would be adopted.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Now, what kind of issues through 1990 were being

 7     decided by the Main Board?

 8        A.   There were numerous issues and there were many problems in

 9     connection of the ways of protecting the Serbian population, in which way

10     to strengthen the SDS and to take over power, also in the areas of Kordun

11     and Banija, and to start building a political system in order to be able

12     to parry the moves of Croatia and to set up organs in a broader area, the

13     Lika and Northern Dalmatia area to begin with, and later also for

14     Krajina.

15             And we also discussed the question of village guards to protect

16     against any dangers coming from the Croatian regime and a lot of other

17     questions.  I could go on at some length about those.

18        Q.   That's fine for now.  Could we return to your witness statement,

19     D313 and paragraph 4.  Paragraph 4 you discuss there an attack on

20     Petrinja and the organisation of night guards.  Did this -- in this

21     paragraph, you note "the SDS only established local night guards to

22     ensure nothing happened."  What were local night guards?  What did they

23     do and where were they at this point in time?

24        A.   Local night guards consisted of the local villagers who stood

25     guards in their villages during the night in order to prevent any

Page 12645

 1     attacks, Croatian attacks by their police units or by the National Guard.

 2     These were local people, villagers, peasants who, while standing guard,

 3     carried mainly their own weapons, mainly hunting weapons which were their

 4     weapons, in their possession.

 5        Q.   "Mainly hunting weapons which were their weapons, in their

 6     possession."  Was there any other source of weapons at that point in

 7     time?

 8        A.   At that time, no.  Later it became possible to buy weapons from

 9     smugglers.

10        Q.   At what point in time did it become possible to buy weapons from

11     smugglers?

12        A.   We were already in October when incursions by special Croatian

13     units started and when newly set up police stations were established in

14     places where they had not been previously, which places were adjacent to

15     Serbian villages.  It was not -- it did not happen at the same time

16     everywhere.

17        Q.   Let's just break that down a bit.  Do you know where local night

18     guards were approximately, how many of the villages, in October of 1990

19     and towards the end of 1990?

20        A.   In all the villages in the Kordun area, and I went to see them.

21     As regards the other areas, I cannot say with certainty, but the

22     principle was the same.

23        Q.   Was the setting up of the night guards in other areas, in all the

24     areas covered by the SDS local boards, discussed at the Main Board?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 12646

 1        Q.   Now, this came in October of 1990.  But as your statement says at

 2     paragraph 9, barricades had already gone up in Knin on the 16th and

 3     17th of August, 1990.  Was that discussed at the SDS Main Board?

 4        A.   Yes, it was, but after the erection of the barricades, because

 5     the events of the 16th, 17th, and the 18th were sudden.  No one actually

 6     had expected that Croatian special units would seek to disarm the local

 7     police, the reserve force of the local police.

 8        Q.   And what form did the discussion take at the Main Board, this

 9     event having happened?  Was there discussion about organising for future

10     events?

11        A.   We were taken by surprise, very much so, and the key question is

12     what course of action to take.

13        Q.   And what was decided?

14        A.   The decision which was made was that we should try and find a

15     solution which would make it possible for our own police to efficiently

16     count the Croatian Special Police units and the National Guard units

17     because it was evident that the local village guards with the armaments

18     that they had just could not do it.

19        Q.   Were decisions made by the Main Board?  Practical decisions, I

20     mean.

21        A.   Not at that moment.  At that moment we actually started

22     discussing our further course of action and what measures to take.

23        Q.   And where did the creation of night guards come from?  Where were

24     the discussions -- sorry, when were the discussions?  And was the

25     decision to create night guards part of a number of decisions which were

Page 12647

 1     in response to the events?

 2        A.   It was actually kind of an extorted reaction to the developments

 3     that were taking place, because the people started to self-organise in a

 4     number of villages.  So in order to prevent incidents and undesirable

 5     situations, we thought that the SDS should place such guards under some

 6     form of control and to link all of them into a sort of a unified whole.

 7        Q.   And what was Milan Babic's role in this decision-making, if you

 8     recall it?

 9        A.   Milan Babic was the key figure in the adoption of all our

10     decisions because being a man of -- an operative, he knew all of us were

11     in the field, and we supported him and we always voted for his proposals

12     and the decisions that he proposed.

13        Q.   But why was that, why did the Main Board place such trust with

14     Milan Babic?

15        A.   We trusted him because we thought that he was the one who most

16     directly and most efficiently conveyed our positions and our opinions and

17     translated them into proposals of decisions.

18        Q.   And what was your personal relationship with Milan Babic through

19     the -- towards the end of 1990 and early 1991?

20        A.   I can say that our relations were correct and as of October 1991

21     they were in fact exceptional.  We were friends.  And I thought myself

22     one of his more intimate associates within the circle of five or six of

23     his closest associates.  With time, this friendship strengthened.

24        Q.   And before October 1991, during 1991 itself, how often would you

25     see him, and, again, in which circumstances, generally?  We'll come to

Page 12648

 1     the specifics shortly.

 2        A.   Very frequently, every seven or 15 days.  There wouldn't be

 3     longer breaks than 15 days.  We would go to Knin and he would attend our

 4     meetings in Kordun at Banija in October as well as later regarding the

 5     establishment of the Territorial Defence and the adoption of the Statute

 6     of the SAO Krajina in the Kordun municipalities.  Simply, we were

 7     frequently in personal contact.

 8        Q.   Let me ask you, please, about 65 ter 436.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  It's in Your Honours' chart at the beginning.

10             Could we have it on the screen, please.

11        Q.   I want to ask you to elaborate on a number of things.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  This is D302, Your Honour.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

14        Q.   You've seen this before and you've commented on it; that's right,

15     Mr. Witness?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Now, this is a statement, as we can see, from a Mr. Ognjen.  And

18     within the statement he discusses the Council of National Resistance.

19     What was Babic's role within the Council of National Resistance in

20     October of 19 -- sorry, in December of 1990, the date of this statement?

21        A.   In August.

22        Q.   The statement is dated December of 1990.

23             MR. JORDASH:  We can see -- we can go to the 5th page of the

24     English and the 6th page of the B/C/S.

25        Q.   The statement is December 1990.  And since we are on the last

Page 12649

 1     page, you can see there, three paragraphs from the top, what the author

 2     of this statement is saying:

 3             "I also know that citizens were given the weapons of the Knin SJS

 4     reservists.  These weapons were handed out on the 17th of August, 1990,

 5     after the Knin SJS warehouse was broken into, but I don't know exactly

 6     whom the weapons were issued to.  I heard that there was a list stating

 7     to whom the weapons were given, and I know that in that period

 8     Dragan Batas of Strmica was in charge of 10 men who were guarding

 9     Milan Babic, Knin SO president, and that probably they had been issued

10     some of the weapons."

11             And then the second paragraph from the bottom:

12             "I also want to mention that people in town are openly saying

13     that Simo Dubajic and Milo Martic are handing out weapons and probably

14     have lists of the people they sold the weapons to."

15             You following me, Mr. Bosnic?

16        A.   Yes, but I didn't have this in Serbia when you made this

17     reference to Mr. Batas.  As for Simo Dubajic and Martic, I have it in

18     Serbian.  But -- no, I apologise, I have found it.  Now it's all right.

19     I have found it.

20        Q.   Okay.  Just a have a read of that to yourself.

21        A.   Yes.  All right.  I've read it.

22        Q.   Can you comment on that?  Do you know anything about this in

23     August of 1990?

24        A.   The first time I heard that Milan Martic distributed any weapons,

25     to the best of my knowledge he did not do that.  There were different

Page 12650

 1     stories being bandied about.  People were saying that Simo Dubajic was

 2     selling some rifles, but I don't know about that firsthand.  But as for

 3     Martic, there were no such stories.

 4        Q.   And who was Simo Dubajic?

 5        A.   Simo Dubajic was a fighter in the Second World War who was more

 6     of a Bohemian and less of a fighter, actually.  He was long on talk and

 7     short on deeds.

 8        Q.   Right.  Let's just return to my question about the Council for

 9     National Resistance.

10             MR. JORDASH:  If we turn to page 1 of the English and 1 of the

11     B/C/S.

12        Q.   The author says the following halfway down the English page:

13             "I'm aware that after a state of war was declared, the staff for

14     defence of Knin --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Would the counsel please provide the reference

16     in the original and B/C/S.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Page 1 of the English and 1 of the B/C/S.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And where approximately?

19             MR. JORDASH:  In the B/C/S, it's about halfway down the page.

20        Q.   "I am aware that a state of war was declared -- I am aware that

21     after a state of war was declared, the staff for defence of Knin was

22     formed in the Omladinsko Naselje settlement in the village of Golubic.

23     The staff was later renamed Council of National Resistance."

24             And then the author goes on to list a number of people associated

25     with Council of National Resistance.

Page 12651

 1             And if we go over the page to -- are you following me,

 2     Mr. Bosnic?

 3        A.   Yes, I'm following.  No problem.

 4        Q.   Then towards the bottom of that page, the writer also says:

 5             "I learned that the staff members," with reference to the Council

 6     of National Resistance, "also included Zelenbaba, Opacic," over the page

 7     in the English, page 2 of the B/C/S, "Peric, and Milan Babic, Knin SO

 8     municipal president who was also staff commander.  Martic was saying that

 9     he was given the duty of staff commander and they were all given their

10     duties by Milan Babic to add a sense of seriousness to the work."

11             Can you comment on what the --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus.

13             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour, I have a couple of objections.

14     First of all, counsel is using this statement of a witness who didn't

15     testify.  This is generally something that we oppose.  Now, I saw the

16     comments - and it's something that counsel also opposes, I should add.

17     It's an out-of-court statement, untested.  Having read the comments of

18     the witness in the comments chart, I hesitated to make that objection

19     because I think that the content does relate, certainly in part at least,

20     to the witness's knowledge.

21             However, what counsel is now proceeding to do is to ask leading

22     questions using quotations from this statement.  So I would object to the

23     way it's being used.  I think the -- with respect to the admission of the

24     statement, which counsel hasn't done yet but I presume he's going to

25     tender it --

Page 12652

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We're talking about D302, isn't it?

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Which is marked for identification.  So therefore --

 4             MS. MARCUS:  I was -- yes, I was talking about the -- the --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the chart.

 6             MS. MARCUS:  No, 65 ter 436, which is what we're ...

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but that is D302.  Yes.

 8             MS. MARCUS:  Okay.  Well, I apologise for that, in that case.

 9     But I would like to maintain my objection that the way that the counsel

10     is leading the witness is not by asking open-ended questions and then

11     comparing it to the -- to what we have in front of us but, rather, by

12     putting statements in a way which leads the witness to a particular

13     answer.  So I'd like to request open-ended questions to the witness.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

15             MR. JORDASH:  I can do it --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you proceed, we have a kind of a practice

17     developed here that you not put a statement of another witness or a

18     testimony of another witness to a witness unless you have asked

19     specifically about the subject matter and only after that, if there's any

20     need to do so, to put the statement or earlier testimony to the witness.

21     And of course this is already our practice in cross-examination, so let

22     alone in chief, but --

23             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I would submit that that's not accurate.

24     That there is a practice where statements of witnesses who have testified

25     in this courtroom or whose statements have been admitted pursuant to

Page 12653

 1     Rule 66, that's the practice.  But in relation to exhibits, in relation

 2     to --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not an exhibit yet.  I mean, D302 is marked for

 4     identification because I think it was -- that still has to be considered,

 5     what kind of a statement this is, and I think we are still waiting for

 6     objections to -- not to say that there will be objections, but at least

 7     that matter has not been settled yet.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Well, Your Honour, I don't know the exhibit number

 9     off the top of my head, but the Prosecution produced, during a witness's

10     testimony, a statement by Ilija Kojic given to the RS MUP in 2003 and

11     used it to cross-examine a witness and then applied to have it admitted.

12     And despite what my learned friend has just said, we didn't oppose that.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't have a clear recollection of how that

14     exactly was used.  If statements are taken not for the purposes of this

15     Tribunal, then at least 92 ter does not oppose admission of such

16     documents.  So to that extent I would be inclined to agree with you.  But

17     it depends on the way in which it is used and also whether there's any

18     objection to admission to evidence of such a statement.  And we just

19     don't know at this moment.

20             MR. JORDASH:  Well, if -- I'll try it in a different way.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             MR. JORDASH:

23        Q.   Do you know about the Council of National Resistance which, I

24     think there's no dispute about this, existed in 1990 in the Krajina; is

25     that correct?

Page 12654

 1        A.   Yes.  After an attempted incursion into Benkovac, Obrovac, and

 2     Knin, when Babic declared a state of war.

 3        Q.   What happened after Babic declared a state of war in relation to

 4     the Council of National Resistance?

 5        A.   They withdrew to Golubic.  There was some barracks or, rather,

 6     huts there that had stayed over after certain public works, and then they

 7     wanted to show how dangerous the situation was and --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness repeat what he said.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Could you -- sorry, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Could you repeat what you just said, Mr. Bosnic, please.

11        A.   Milan Babic declared a state of war.  Certain members of the

12     leadership withdrew to the huts in Golubic that had stayed over after

13     voluntary labour projects there in Yugoslavia, and subsequently they

14     changed locations in order to stress the serious nature of the situation.

15        Q.   Who changed locations?  Which leadership changed locations?

16        A.   Milan Babic, Martic.  They were later joined by Pero Stikavac,

17     Mandinic.  I can't recall them all now.  They were mostly persons from

18     the Knin area.

19        Q.   Were they members of the Main Board of the SDS?

20        A.   Save for Martic, I believe they all were, yes.

21        Q.   And how does this relate to the Council of National Resistance?

22        A.   I don't understand the question.

23        Q.   Well, we were talking about the Council of National Resistance,

24     and you started off by saying Babic declared a state of war and then

25     there was a retreat or withdrawal to Golubic.

Page 12655

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   What has that got to do with the Council of National Resistance?

 3        A.   Well, they withdrew to Golubic, the council headed by Babic.

 4        Q.   When was the Council of National Resistance formed and who was it

 5     formed by?

 6        A.   This was Milan Babic's idea.  It was set up at the point when

 7     Knin was exposed to a threat from an incursion of the Croatian forces.

 8        Q.   In which point in time approximately?

 9        A.   It was the 17th or the 18th of August, 1990.

10        Q.   How many people were in the Council of National Resistance?

11        A.   A dozen, I believe.

12        Q.   What was its stated purpose?

13        A.   To mount resistance in the event that the Croatian forces launch

14     an attack on Knin.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, I'm looking at the time.

16             MR. JORDASH:  I can leave it there and pick it up after the

17     break, with Your Honours' leave.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll have a break, and we resume

19     at 4.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 3.36 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we proceed:  Mr. Jordash, any answer to D56?

23             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, the answer is the same as that we gave for

24     D55, which is that Dragisa Ristivojevic, who was an assistant to

25     Mr. Stanisic, gave the document to Mr. Stanisic in 1992.  We -- yes,

Page 12656

 1     that's it.

 2             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, my understanding was that this was

 3     going to be a document that we were going -- that the Defence was

 4     going -- one of the several documents that the Defence was going to

 5     submit an RFA to try to get the original version.  Perhaps I'm mistaken,

 6     I do believe this is -- D55 and D56 were among that pile.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  That's right.  And we did make a request to the

 8     National Council and so far we've heard nothing back interest them.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  When did you make that request?

10             MR. JORDASH:  6th of October, 2010.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And have you insisted on receiving an answer?

12             MR. JORDASH:  Well, we've insisted on receiving an answer to many

13     things, and we intend to make it part of a soon-to-be-filed motion asking

14     Your Honours to intervene.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Don't hesitate to seek the support of the

16     Chamber in obtaining documents.

17             MR. JORDASH:  No, we've certainly reached that point where we

18     will be filing something forthwith.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, I do not intend to spend a lot of time

20     on it at this moment, but.

21             MS. MARCUS:  This is a different matter, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Different matter, yes.

23             MS. MARCUS:  I just wanted to raise for Your Honours the fact

24     that we have just today received a response to an RFA we sent to the

25     Republic of Croatia.  We sent it immediately upon receipt of the Defence

Page 12657

 1     witness list.  We received now back today an 85 -- 85 pages in response

 2     to Mr. Bosnic.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Today you received it.

 4             MS. MARCUS:  Today we received it.  Now, I cannot express our

 5     position on it.  It's in B/C/S, it's in Cyrillic also, so it takes some

 6     time for that to be reviewed.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MS. MARCUS:  We will -- we're reviewing it with the utmost of

 9     urgency.  I just wanted to let Your Honours know that that was the

10     situation.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You would say if it would be in Roman script

12     it would be far easier for you, isn't it?

13             MS. MARCUS:  There are some people who can do better with that,

14     Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, that's the easiest thing to do is to read

16     the Cyrillic letters, but then to understand the language.

17             Mr. Jordash, a totally different matter:  I asked you

18     specifically before the break whether a B/C/S version of the proofing

19     notes did exist because I thought it might be useful to have that

20     available for the witness to -- now, you said no, but I do understand,

21     unless it was produced in 20 minutes, but I take it that it was there

22     because it has been shown to me over the break.

23             MR. JORDASH:  No, it was produced during the court proceedings by

24     our assistant who fortunately works very fast.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If she started translating it when I asked the

Page 12658

 1     question and when it was finished by then, I must praise her for the

 2     speed in which she is able to put, I take it, provisional translations

 3     on paper.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, she saved us on many an occasion.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That's great to hear.  I do also understand that it

 6     has been provided to the witness.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  I think that's right.  And if I then --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you can proceed on the basis of that.  Has it

 9     been uploaded yet or ...?

10             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, it has on --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then let's proceed.

12             MR. JORDASH:  If I can take the witness straight to that now and

13     deal with that formality.

14        Q.   Mr. Bosnic, we want to just return to the amendments.  So I want

15     to deal with formalities before we return back to the substance of your

16     testimony.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Please could we have on e-court D314.  Sorry, on

18     the screen, I meant.

19        Q.   On the 8th of July, Mr. Bosnic, did you review your statement and

20     make amendments to it?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. JORDASH:  If we could go to the bottom of the page, please.

23        Q.   Do you recognise these amendments?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Do these amendments reflect the clarifications you wanted to make

Page 12659

 1     at that time to your statement?

 2        A.   Yes, except for paragraph 3, right at the start.

 3        Q.   And would you want to make a clarification to that paragraph?

 4        A.   Yes.  The word "accepted" has been left out.  However, after the

 5     first round of multi-party elections, the leaders of the SDP left the --

 6     abandoned the SDP programme and accepted Tudjman's idea.  The word

 7     "accepted" is not there.

 8        Q.   Apart from that, do these amendments reflect what you wanted to

 9     say and what clarifications you wanted to make?

10        A.   Yes.  I looked at it over the break and that's it.

11        Q.   And the statement plus these amendments are, in substance, what

12     you would answer if asked the same questions today?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And those answers are in accordance with the truth?

15        A.   I took an oath, yes.

16             MR. JORDASH:  May the statement and the amendments be tendered,

17     please.

18             MS. MARCUS:  No objections.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  D313 and D314 are admitted into evidence.

20             Mr. Jordash, one final comment:  The map marked by the witness, I

21     already complained about the time it took, but if you look at it now,

22     where it's totally unclear what was marked by the witness when, upon what

23     question.  It looks like a Rorschach test at this moment rather than

24     anything else.  Of course, sometimes you can read on the map what it is

25     but often it's just dots.  And since we are not psychiatrists but lawyers

Page 12660

 1     and we do not interpret Rorschach tests, the Chamber would not oppose an

 2     agreed map with the relevant markings with understandable -- not only for

 3     us but also if at any later stage anyone would have to look at it such as

 4     the Appeals Chamber, then of course it's totally useless as it is now.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  We'll arrange a map then and have the Prosecution

 6     look at it.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, one of the things that still has to be

 8     done is that - to D314, which are the proofing notes - that the B/C/S

 9     translation should attach -- be attached to it, because if I open my

10     e-court, it is -- and, as a matter of fact, you can't do that, but the

11     Registry is the only one who can do it.  So if it is ready to be

12     attached, I'll instruct the Registrar to do it.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, you are hereby instructed to attach

15     the uploaded translation of D314, proofing notes, and make it part of

16     D314.  Everything's now on the record.

17             Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

19        Q.   Mr. Bosnic, are your headphones comfortable?  You look as though

20     you're constantly struggling with them and it's making me nervous.

21        A.   It's all right.

22        Q.   Okay.  The Council of National Resistance - let's just try to

23     move through this swiftly - what was its purpose, what did it do?

24        A.   Its purpose was to co-ordinate the activities of village guards

25     and the police in the event that the Croatian forces of the Croatian

Page 12661

 1     Special Police units advance into this particular area of Lika, Northern

 2     Dalmatia, and specifically Knin.

 3        Q.   What was it anticipating that the Special Police units of the

 4     Croatians would do upon advance?

 5        A.   What was anticipated was crimes and civilian victims.  It was

 6     expected that they wanted to enter the area in order to destroy the

 7     Serbian people there and place the territory under Croatian control.

 8        Q.   How long did the Council of National Resistance exist?

 9        A.   For a very short period of time.  A month or two.

10        Q.   How did it dissolve or how was it disbanded?

11        A.   Well, it simply ceased to operate.  What was embarked upon was an

12     effort to institutionalise Lika and the entire area into a whole.

13        Q.   What did that mean in a practical sense, to institutionalise Lika

14     and the entire area into a whole?

15        A.   This means that institutions would be set up, such as the TO, a

16     proper police force, a secretariat for health care, a secretariat for

17     education, et cetera, in order to create counterparts, as it were, to

18     these same institutions in Croatia.

19        Q.   Okay.  Let's return, if I may, to the statement of Mr. Ognjen,

20     which is D302.  You've read this statement.  Could you just assist in

21     this regard:  Biserko Ognjen, son of the father Ilija, do you know what

22     his ethnicity was?  Can you tell by his name?

23        A.   It's very hard to tell, but I do assume he's a Serb.

24        Q.   Now, reading the statement - you've read the statement, haven't

25     you?

Page 12662

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And it lists a number of people, on page 1 of the English and 1

 3     of the B/C/S and 2 of the English and 2 of the B/C/S, who were members of

 4     the Council of National Resistance.  If you want to, you can remind

 5     yourself.  But the question is:  Do you agree with that or not?

 6             MS. MARCUS:  Objection, Your Honour.  This is the exact example

 7     of what I was opposing before.  Counsel can ask the witness who were

 8     members of the Council of National Resistance but not put to the witness

 9     a proposition directly from a statement like this and ask the witness

10     to -- I mean, it's leading in the ultimate example.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  It is leading, Ms. Marcus.  The question, however,

12     is to what extent that should be inadmissible at this moment.

13             Would you know by heart who the members were, witness?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't be able to tell you all,

15     but there was Mandinic, Vitas, Babic, Martic.  There were others.  I

16     can't give you the names of all of them.  There were more of them for

17     sure, but I can't recall all their names.  It was a long time ago.

18     You'll understand.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I do not know how important is it for you, but if

20     Mr. Jordash would like to refresh the memory of the witness then he is

21     allowed to do so.

22             Ms. Marcus, to some extent I do agree with you that of course

23     it's leading, but in a Tribunal where proofing witnesses, showing

24     whatever you want to show to them before you examine them in chief, and

25     then to say you shouldn't lead is, of course, well, a bit inconsistent

Page 12663

 1     from a systematic point of view, because then it's not a long-term memory

 2     but rather the short-term memory of whether he remembers what he saw

 3     yesterday.  So to that extent let's try to remain practical as well.

 4             Mr. Jordash, if it's important for you, please --

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Well -- sorry, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And it's even a matter -- I do not know to what

 7     extent this would be matters on which one could even agree.  I don't know

 8     what the formal status -- how formal it is and whether -- how many

 9     dispute there is about membership of this.

10             MR. JORDASH:  Well, let me deal with it in a different way, if I

11     may, to shortcut things.

12        Q.   It's been suggested by a witness in this court or a witness

13     relied upon by the Prosecution that the Council of National Resistance

14     was headed by Stanisic, Jovica Stanisic.  Could you comment on that,

15     please?

16        A.   That's nonsensical.  No, that's not true.

17        Q.   Why do you say nonsensical?

18        A.   Because I can't believe that this person could have stated

19     something like that.  It was simply not the truth.  And anyone who was

20     present in the area was aware of it.  Everyone knew who the members were,

21     at least the main ones.

22        Q.   Did you ever speak to Babic about this council?

23        A.   We discussed it in passing.  But I talked about it from other --

24     I talked about it with other individuals from the SDS who were

25     knowledgeable about these matters, and one of them, Petar Stikavac, is

Page 12664

 1     mentioned in this statement.

 2        Q.   What was your relationship to Petar Stikavac?

 3        A.   We were on excellent terms.

 4        Q.   Professionally or personally?

 5        A.   Initially professionally and later on personally because Petar

 6     was one of the founders of the SDS.

 7        Q.   And we're talking about a period in 1990; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Beginning, middle, or end of 1990?

10        A.   Our professional relationship began sometime in May and our

11     friendship in mid-1991.  The professional relationship dates back to

12     May 1990 and our friendship from mid-1991.

13        Q.   Now, looking at this statement on the screen, at the beginning

14     there's a reference there to the "state of war being declared in Knin on

15     the 17th of August, 1990, by Knin SAO president Milan Babic for the

16     purpose of defence from special units of the Republic of Croatia which

17     had tried in the previous evening to confiscate some weapons from the

18     Benkovac and Obrovac public security police stations."

19             Now, in relation to the attempt by -- or the purported attempt,

20     according to this statement, of the special units of the Republic of

21     Croatia to seize weapons, was that something you observed or experienced

22     in Croatia at that time?

23        A.   I was not in Knin at the time.  And these events took place in

24     Dalmatia.  And what I know comes from the meetings discussing these

25     events.

Page 12665

 1        Q.   Well, at paragraph -- let's return to your statement.

 2     Paragraph D313, paragraph 4, you note at the bottom, halfway through the

 3     paragraph, in relation to the night guards:

 4             "The people guarding were civilian inhabitants of the villages

 5     and were carrying their own licensed hunting arms.  We informed the

 6     police stations in our municipalities, who still were in contact with

 7     Zagreb and not with Knin, that we were not going to allow," and here's an

 8     amendment, "the Croatian police to take out the armament of reserve

 9     forces and bring the armament in the Karlovac and Zagreb police

10     stations."

11             Do you recall giving that evidence?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   What were the reserve forces that you refer to, reserve armament?

14        A.   This was part of the police force in the municipalities of

15     Vojnic and Vrginmost.

16        Q.   What were the -- did this have anything to do with weapons?

17        A.   No.  The weapons were kept under key, and by establishment they

18     belonged to the reserve police force and could only be used in the event

19     of a war.

20        Q.   Did the police stations all have reserve weapons at that time?

21        A.   Yes, in Croatia and elsewhere throughout Yugoslavia.

22        Q.   What kind of reserve weapons did the police stations have?

23        A.   They had automatic rifles, gas masks, and that was it, so

24     automatic rifles.

25        Q.   And what kind of amount, volumes, of reserve weapons did the

Page 12666

 1     police stations have?

 2        A.   They were small quantities.  The reserve force had

 3     approximately -- the strength of the reserve force was approximately the

 4     same as the peacetime force in regular conditions.  Of course, it

 5     depended on the actual area in question covered by the specific police

 6     station.

 7        Q.   Do you know what the reserve weapon volume was for Knin before

 8     Martic took over the station?

 9        A.   No, but the principle was the same everywhere.  The weapons had

10     been there for -- from before, for some ten years or so.

11        Q.   Let's move on to paragraph 9 of your statement and the barricades

12     that went up in Knin.  Were these organised by anyone?

13        A.   The barricades went up spontaneously in response to threats and

14     the attempts of the Croatian police forces to come to the area.

15        Q.   And after arising spontaneously, were they organised

16     subsequently?

17        A.   Yes.  Barricades were also erected in the area of Lika, in

18     municipalities where the SDS had power, having won [indiscernible] the

19     elections; whereas in Kordun and Banija, this started only later.  In

20     fact, they only had night watches, they did not have barricades.  Night

21     guards.

22        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to visit or pass through the

23     barricades?

24        A.   Yes.  Every time we came to Knin, we had to pass by the

25     barricades.

Page 12667

 1        Q.   Was there anybody manning the barricades who were not locals?

 2        A.   To my knowledge, no, these were people in their ordinary clothes

 3     which they normally wore at home and with just hunting rifle --

 4     armaments.

 5        Q.   What role was Martic playing at this point in time, the time when

 6     the barricades went up?

 7        A.   At that time Martic was a police inspector in Knin.

 8        Q.   Was he attending any SDS meetings?

 9        A.   No, he was not.  At least not the Main Board meetings.

10        Q.   Did you observe what his relationship was with Milan Babic?

11        A.   They were on quite good terms, to the best of my knowledge.

12        Q.   Let's move forward now to 1991.  You've told us that you were

13     meeting Babic during this period.  At what point was the government of

14     Krajina formed?

15        A.   It was formed when the 7th municipality from that area, which is

16     Vojnic from Kordun, accepted the Statute of the SAO Krajina.  I cannot

17     recall the exact date.

18        Q.   How was the government formed, can you recall?

19        A.   Following a proposal by Milan Babic at a session of the

20     Main Board.

21        Q.   And how was it implemented, the suggestion or proposal?

22        A.   This proposal was accepted by the Assembly of the SAO Krajina,

23     which was composed of seven MPs from each of the municipalities from the

24     area of the SAO Krajina.

25        Q.   And the Assembly of the SAO Krajina, how were the decisions made

Page 12668

 1     in the Assembly?

 2        A.   The proposal of the Main Board of the SDS, Milan Babic would

 3     refer it to the government.  Actually, the government's proposal would be

 4     proposed to the Assembly by him, which would then take a vote.  Actually,

 5     the creator of that policy was Milan Babic, at that time already man

 6     number one in the SDS.

 7        Q.   Did you have a role to play in the Assembly?

 8        A.   Only as of November 1991.

 9        Q.   Up until that time were you in contact with members of the

10     Assembly?

11        A.   Yes.  And when the preparations for the Assembly were underway, I

12     would refer to the Vojnic delegates, the stances of the SDS, either

13     decisions that they would be voted on, and I acquainted them with these

14     decisions, so, rather, the proposals of decisions that they would be

15     voting on.

16        Q.   Let's just break that down a little.  You would refer to the

17     Vojnic delegates, stances of the SDS.  Could you just explain that a

18     little?

19        A.   That is the principle of work.  That is how we worked prior -- in

20     every municipality.  Namely, an SDS -- the SDS representative and the

21     delegation would acquaint the delegation which comprised seven delegates

22     with all the materials which were discussed at the Main Board session of

23     the SDS, which would then be part of the Assembly agenda so that at the

24     Assembly session they would vote on any proposed decisions in keeping

25     with the discussions at the Main Board and their stance taken there.

Page 12669

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have P1119, please.

 2        Q.   This is a decision to appoint Milan Martic as secretary of the

 3     interior of the Serbian Autonomous District of Krajina, issued by the

 4     Executive Council of the Serbian Autonomous District Krajina in Knin,

 5     signed by Milan Babic, 4th of January, 1991.  It's in the chart at

 6     number 2.  You say in the chart:

 7             "I was present when the SDS Main Board discussed and adopted this

 8     decision.  Milan Babic recommend Milan Martic."

 9             Who else was present at the SDS Main Board when this was

10     discussed?

11        A.   There were over a hundred people present.  I'm not sure of the

12     exact number.  Over a hundred members of the Main Board from the entire

13     area of the SAO Krajina, Western Slavonia and Eastern Slavonia,

14     Baranja and Western Srem.

15        Q.   Do you know or were you given any reasons why Babic recommended

16     Milan Martic?

17        A.   Milan Babic recommended him, explaining that he was the first to

18     adopt the initiative of the people not to allow their weapons to be

19     seized and who placed himself at the helm of the resistance of the police

20     to such a decision.  He said that he was a man from Knin, that he was

21     well known for being a patriot and a Serb.

22        Q.   You make the comment in your chart that the Executive Council

23     adopted the recommendation afterwards and appointed Milan Martic.  How

24     was the decision made at the Executive Council to adopt the

25     recommendation?

Page 12670

 1        A.   Milan Babic, as the president of the Executive Council of the

 2     Serbian Autonomous District of Krajina, with a party leadership and other

 3     members of the council who were the presidents of the municipalities

 4     proposed this decision, the council adopted that decision, and

 5     Milan Babic signed the adopted decision.

 6        Q.   How was the decision adopted?  Was it put to the vote?

 7        A.   Yes, it was.  And it had to be adopted by a majority.  And as far

 8     as I know, this particular decision was accepted, adopted, unanimously.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Would counsel please

10     switch off his microphone while the witness is responding.  Thank you

11     very much.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Certainly.  Sorry.

13        Q.   During that decision-making process, did you hear of

14     Jovica Stanisic?  Did Stanisic have anything to do with that decision

15     from where you were able to observe?

16        A.   To the best of my knowledge, and I believe that I was very

17     familiar with matters, Jovica Stanisic had nothing whatsoever to do with

18     the adoption of that decision.  Had he had anything to do with that

19     decision, I certainly would have known that and the others would have

20     been informed.  Milan Babic never mentioned Jovica Stanisic or anybody

21     else in connection with this decision.  That had been exclusively a

22     proposal of his.

23             MR. JORDASH:  Can we have, please, P1907.  In Your Honours'

24     chart, page 2, number 4.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, if I -- if you allow me to interrupt

Page 12671

 1     you for a second.  You earlier referred to a witness or at least a

 2     statement on which the Prosecution relied in relation to the -- who

 3     chaired the -- I have difficulties in finding it.  I'd like to re-read

 4     exactly what that evidence is.  Do you have any source for me?

 5             MR. JORDASH:  This is the witness who claimed that Stanisic was

 6     in control of the Council of National Resistance, is that the issue?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's the issue, but I -- even with all my

 8     search engines, I'm --

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, it's Mr. Babic himself.  And he refers to

10     this on a number of occasions, but --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

12             MR. JORDASH:  -- for example, P1878, and it's page 339 on

13     e-court, and it's evidence Babic gave on 26th of November in the

14     Milosevic trial, page 13490, where Babic talked about trying to disband

15     the Council of National Resistance.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll have a look at it.  Thank you.  Please proceed.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   P1907, Mr. Witness, an unsigned document with the name of

19     Milan Babic, regarding a decision to establish the Secretariat for the

20     Interior of the Serbian Autonomous Region of Krajina,

21     4th of January, 1991.  And you comment that Article 7 shows that Martic

22     was not in charge of the internal organisation of the Secretariat, but it

23     was Milan Babic through the Executive Council.  Could you just elaborate

24     on that a little, please.

25        A.   As regards the internal organisation of the work of the

Page 12672

 1     Secretariat, this could not have been decided by Martic alone.  It had to

 2     be decided by the council or, rather, the Executive Council of the

 3     SAO Krajina.  The internal organisation and the actual mode of operation

 4     of the Secretariat could not have been actually decided upon by Martic

 5     but had to be adopted by the council as an organ, not by Martic.

 6        Q.   Did Martic play any role in this?

 7        A.   Yes, he did.  He participated in the preparations.

 8        Q.   Did he have a vote on the Executive Council?

 9        A.   Only after his appointment as secretary.

10        Q.   How do you have this information?  How do you know this?

11        A.   I know on the basis of the work of the Main Board.  We know how

12     the Executive Council of the Serbian Autonomous District functioned, and

13     we know how they adopted decisions.  Members of the board, all of them

14     except for Martic, I believe, were members of the council.  I apologise,

15     of the main SDS board.

16        Q.   Do you know if this decision or this establishment of the

17     Secretariat had anything to do with Serbia and particularly

18     Jovica Stanisic?

19        A.   As far as I know, no.  Namely, Milan Babic never mentioned

20     Jovica Stanisic in connection with the proposal of this decision or in

21     connection with the proposal to appoint Milan Martic as secretary.

22        Q.   Do you know at this time how often Martic and Babic were

23     associating and the nature of that association?

24        A.   I believe that they co-operated on a daily basis.  Namely, they

25     agreed on activities.

Page 12673

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have, please, the chart on the screen,

 2     D315.

 3        Q.   And I want to ask you about a comment you made in the chart.

 4     It's page 2 of the chart, and it's in relation to Exhibit P1101.  And at

 5     page 2 of the exhibit or the chart, having looked at an order to mobilise

 6     the Territorial Defence of the Serbian Autonomous District Krajina and

 7     volunteer units in order to defend citizens and its territorial integrity

 8     issued by Dr. Milan Babic, president of the Executive Council of the

 9     SAO Krajina, 1st of April, and you note:  This document confirms my

10     knowledge that it was Babic who issued orders to Martic and others in

11     relation to the mobilisation of the TO.

12             What knowledge do you have of that relationship other than that

13     document?

14        A.   This document was in fact a request to the Government of Serbia

15     and the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia because it was high time they

16     helped us in technical terms and by training in order for us to set up a

17     unit that would be prepared and able to resist Croatian special units,

18     because their raid in Plitvice definitely proved that our village guards

19     and regular police were simply not able enough in military terms to

20     counter such incursions of the Croatian special units or of the units of

21     the Croatian National Guards Corps.  And we had nobody else to turn to

22     but the Government of Serbia and the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia.

23        Q.   You make the point there in the comments that Babic told you in

24     1992 that he had good relations with Bogdanovic in 1991.  Can you recall

25     the conversation and what was said?

Page 12674

 1        A.   Yes, Babic told me that he had good relations with Bogdanovic and

 2     that he had addressed him as well and met with him when he arrived in

 3     Belgrade.  And that those were really good relations was confirmed by

 4     Bogdanovic himself because we met at a meeting in Belgrade in 1992 when

 5     Babic asked Bogdanovic to help iron out the Babic/Milosevic relationship.

 6     I too attended that meeting.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Let's move on.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  P1892, please.

 9        Q.   This is an order --

10             MR. JORDASH:  This is on, Your Honours, page 3 of the chart.

11        Q.   An order issued by Milan Babic, president of the Serbian

12     Autonomous District Krajina government, a minister of defence to mobilise

13     all Territorial Defence headquarters and units on the territory, the

14     Serbian Autonomous District Krajina.  And in the chart you make the

15     comment that this document again shows that Milan Babic was in charge of

16     the mobilisation of the TO of Krajina.  Could you explain what you mean

17     by that?

18        A.   Well, you can see here that Milan Babic is signing as the

19     minister of defence and the prime minister, so he had a dual function in

20     order to be able to keep tabs on things.  It was he who issued orders.

21     He personally issued orders to Territorial Defence staffs in the

22     municipalities.

23        Q.   Now, what did it mean in practical terms at that point in time

24     for Milan Babic to be signing as the minister of defence?  What power did

25     he have as minister of defence?

Page 12675

 1        A.   He had powers to order mobilisation of the Territorial Defence;

 2     for lists to be drawn up of men comprised within the Territorial Defence,

 3     to see what their particular skills were, their digits within the

 4     military establishment, whether they would belong to the infantry or the

 5     artillery branch; what was lacking, what was the strength of the

 6     able-bodied population in the area covered by a specific

 7     Territorial Defence staff, i.e., within a specific municipality.

 8        Q.   And at that point in time what Territorial Defence unit existed?

 9     We're talking about middle of 1991.

10        A.   There was a TO unit in every municipality.  And its strength, of

11     course, depended on the particular municipality, on the numbers of the

12     population of a specific municipality.

13        Q.   Can you give some examples?

14        A.   For instance, in the area of Vojnic, it was the strength of a

15     brigade, between 1600 and 1800 people.  But I apologise, I think it is of

16     the essence to say that the TO was under JNA command.

17        Q.   And how was it armed?  Where did the TO unit receive their arms?

18        A.   TO units had some personal weapons which was also stored in

19     warehouses.  And as for the rest, it would be given to them by the JNA in

20     time of war, in the event of war, and the JNA would be deciding on the

21     manner of use of all Territorial Defence units in any areas where

22     military operations were taking place.

23        Q.   Now, you say Babic had powers to order the mobilisation of the

24     Territorial Defence.  How would that process take place?  Did he make the

25     decision himself or was it subject to agreement?  How did it happen in

Page 12676

 1     practical terms?

 2        A.   I believe that Babic could not sign such a decision without the

 3     agreement of the federal Secretariat for National Defence.

 4        Q.   Was this subject to any government decision within the Krajina or

 5     not?

 6        A.   In actual terms not, but formally, yes, in order to demonstrate

 7     that the Krajina could function autonomously.

 8        Q.   Did you speak to Babic about his function as minister of defence?

 9        A.   No.  I considered it normal because that was the adopted staffing

10     scheme, as it were.

11        Q.   Now, I want to ask you about allegations made by Babic.  And

12     Babic makes various allegations about a parallel structure.  Do you know

13     anything about a parallel structure which removed power from Babic in

14     1991?

15        A.   No.  I received my powers in late 1991 personally from

16     Milan Babic.  It was only at a later date that this was passed through

17     the Assembly of SAO Krajina when I was appointed president of the

18     War Presidency for the municipality of Slunj.

19        Q.   You received your powers in late 1991.  Which powers were these,

20     which position did you receive personally from Babic?

21        A.   I was a representative of the civilian authorities for the

22     municipality of Slunj.  I was charged with creating all the necessary

23     conditions for the civilian authority in Slunj to function normally; that

24     means health care, schools, police, postal services, et cetera.

25        Q.   How was Babic able to give you that position?

Page 12677

 1        A.   By virtue of him being the prime minister.  The decision had been

 2     taken previously to set up civilian authorities in Slunj, stationed in

 3     Veljun, but this had never taken hold.  Now, once the Croatian population

 4     abandoned Slunj and Slunj was emptied, Babic said, Where is the civilian

 5     government there?  He was told that there was none.  At that point he

 6     called me and told me, Bosnic, it is your task now to set up civilian

 7     authorities in Slunj and you will be the president of the War Presidency.

 8        Q.   Do you know if Babic acted in that way only in relation to you or

 9     was he making other appointments?

10        A.   I am familiar with this case which involved myself.  The

11     situation in Slunj was somewhat peculiar compared to the other

12     municipalities in SAO Krajina.  But I do know that he was the one who

13     suggested that Milan Martic appoint specific chiefs of police stations in

14     Kordun.  In that context, I suggested who should be the chief of police

15     for the municipality of Slunj to Milan Babic; that was Milos Pajic.  I --

16     and as for Martic's assistants for Kordun, that was supposed to be

17     Toso Pajic.  Those were my proposals that I submitted to Milan Babic at

18     his request.  He in turn forwarded them to Martic, and Martic appointed

19     both of them, complying with his request.

20        Q.   Okay.  Let's just break that down a little.  At what point in

21     time are you referring?  When did Babic make the proposal for Toso Pajic

22     to be appointed?

23        A.   It was sometime in early December.  Milan Babic told me that

24     Martic had asked him to ask me if there was good policemen whom Martic

25     could appoint as his assistant charged with the area of Kordun.  I

Page 12678

 1     applied first to Milos Pajic who was in Slunj.  He told me that there was

 2     someone better than him, namely Toso Pajic.  This is what I conveyed to

 3     Milan Babic.  And Milan Martic, in February of 1992, appointed Pajic as

 4     his assistant for Kordun.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction: as his deputy for

 6     Kordun.

 7             MR. JORDASH:

 8        Q.   Now, I want to ask you about some allegations that Babic made.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  P1878, e-court page 45.

10        Q.   And I want you to comment on some allegations.  At transcript

11     18th of November, 2002, Babic testified in the Milosevic trial about a

12     so-called parallel structure in the Krajina.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Page reference: 46.

14        Q.   And Babic asked -- is asked:

15             "What do you mean when you say 'so-called parallel structure in

16     the Krajina'?"

17             "A.  I mean by this a group of people which consisted of members

18     of the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia, Public Security Service of

19     Serbia, people from the police in the Serbian municipalities in Croatia,

20     and other people who were in close contact with them and which had not

21     been established by the legal authorities in Krajina or Croatia or

22     Serbia ... which played a special role in all the events starting from

23     August 1990 and in the following years.

24             "Q.  Who was in this -- in the centre from the personality?  Who

25     was in the centre of this parallel structure?

Page 12679

 1             "A.  The central figure was the chief of the State Security

 2     Service of Serbia, Jovica Stanisic, followed by his assistant,

 3     Franko Simatovic, then Captain Dragan 'Rasko' Vasiljkovic, and other

 4     people from the State Security ... Serbia.  Also Milan Martic from the

 5     police force in Knin, several other people from the police force, and

 6     many other people later.

 7             "In fact, later, it was the entire police force in Serbian

 8     municipalities Orlovic, Vitas; and presidents of the municipalities who

 9     were closely related to them, Bozovic, Rastovic, Benkovac, Zecevic, and

10     other people."

11             Could you provide your comment on that allegation, please -- or

12     those allegations.  First of all, did you observe during your political

13     and social activities members of the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia

14     making and acting -- sorry, did you observe members of the Ministry of

15     the Interior of Serbia making decisions which impacted upon the

16     Government of the Krajina?

17        A.   I would have been offended had someone taken decisions on my

18     behalf.  I would have considered myself useless.  There were few of us

19     and we knew one another well.  The story of someone being here who was

20     from Serbia is ridiculous.  It could not have happened without our

21     knowledge.  I did my job in accordance with the law.  I didn't know of

22     any parallel organs, nor did they exist in Kordun.  I had never heard of

23     anything like that, and it's simply not the truth.

24        Q.   Babic makes the point about later on this parallel structure

25     consisting of "the entire police force in the Serbian municipalities

Page 12680

 1     Orlovic, Vitas; and presidents of the municipalities who were closely

 2     related to them, Bozovic, Rastovic, Benkovac, Zecevic, and other people."

 3             What was Babic's relationship with Orlovic during 1991?

 4        A.   To the best of my knowledge, the relationship was fair.  And

 5     Babic was at loggerheads with presidents of these various municipalities

 6     who were founders of the SDS.  I suppose they were unhappy with their

 7     status, and they used political means to counter certain positions

 8     expressed by Babic.  But all these positions that Babic advocated were in

 9     fact pushed through, and Babic's proposal for the establishment of the

10     Republic of the Serbian Krajina was in fact carried.  On the

11     29th of December, 1991, it was, indeed, established.  Whereas all these

12     other individuals you mentioned, Bozovic and others, fought against it.

13     It was on the 19th of December, not the 29th.

14        Q.   Okay.  So just slow down a minute.

15        A.   My apologies.

16        Q.   What was the nature of their dispute and how did it manifest

17     itself?

18        A.   It manifested itself in political disagreements.  They believed

19     that they were due a larger share of power and that they should have some

20     say-so in the decision-making process, but this was merely a verbal

21     confrontation at meetings.

22        Q.   What kind of meetings were they engaged in?

23        A.   These were party meetings and Assembly sessions.  And I mean the

24     Assembly of SAO Krajina, later the RSK.

25        Q.   Were you present at these meetings?

Page 12681

 1        A.   I was present at party meetings from the start, and I started

 2     attending Assembly sessions in late November 1991.  I would meet all

 3     these various individuals.  I first saw Mr. Jovica Stanisic in 1994.  As

 4     for Mr. Simatovic, I saw him in person for the first time here today.

 5        Q.   Going back to the political dispute about the establishment of

 6     the Republic of Serbian Krajina, please explain how that dispute took

 7     place and what happened.  How was it that Babic succeeded against that

 8     opposition?

 9        A.   Generally our political position was to follow all or nearly any

10     activities undertaken by Croatia.  If Croatia wanted to secede, we would

11     be asking to secede from Croatia the day before.  If Croatia wanted to

12     strip us of our constituent status, then we wanted to be the first ones

13     to secede from Croatia.  If a referendum was discussed, we wanted to be

14     the first ones to call a referendum.  Babic believed that we had to

15     proclaim the Serbian Republic of the Krajina in order that we too, as

16     Croatia, may ask for our rights to be recognised and as well as

17     secession.  This was where the conflict stemmed from.  Milan Babic went

18     to Belgrade for discussions with Slobodan Milosevic.

19             While in Belgrade, he placed a call to the party head office

20     asking that an Assembly be convened, which was supposed to be the

21     constituent Assembly of the Serbian Republic of the Krajina.  On the

22     evening before the Assembly session, he convened the Main Board and said

23     that this was the only way for us to counter Croatia.  We accepted his

24     arguments and the Assembly was scheduled for the 19th.

25             Even though the Main Board members were opposed to the idea, they

Page 12682

 1     went along with it at the very session and that was how the RSK was

 2     proclaim.  Later on, Babic said that Slobodan Milosevic was opposed to

 3     the idea of proclaiming the RSK.  I asked him, How was that possible?

 4     Well, Babic said -- on my way out of his office, I told him that we would

 5     not be proclaiming the republic, but as I got into the car, I said to

 6     myself, What do I care?  We are going ahead with it anyway.

 7        Q.   And during the Assembly meeting where this was decided, was this

 8     decided by a vote?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Was there discussion in the Assembly concerning Milosevic's view?

11        A.   No, we weren't aware of Milosevic's view at all.  This was

12     something that Babic told me at a later date.  We accepted the proposed

13     decision by acclimation.  All the deputies in attendance, and every

14     municipality had seven delegates, and I mean all the municipalities of

15     Krajina, and that's how the RSK was proclaimed.

16        Q.   And these presidents of the municipalities who'd disagreed with

17     the proposal, how was their relationship with Babic following this

18     disagreement?

19        A.   They complied with decisions of the parliament.  They stayed in

20     their positions as members of parliament.  Rastovic was in Lapac.

21     Bozovic was in Korenica.  I think they were each in charge of the various

22     municipalities.

23        Q.   Let's change subjects slightly and go to Exhibit 5595.  These

24     are -- or this is a diary written by Mladic.  I want to ask you about

25     some military matters which Mladic discusses.

Page 12683

 1             MR. JORDASH:  And page 52 of the English and the B/C/S.

 2             I've been told that it's the break time, although I'm not sure of

 3     that.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  It's approximately break time, yes.  If this would

 5     be a suitable moment, we would take the break now and we would resume at

 6     quarter to 6.00.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 5.20 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 5.49 p.m.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, before we continue, could you give us

11     an estimate because we never received an 92 ter estimate as the time

12     remaining for the examination of the witness.  Initially for viva voce I

13     think it was four to five hours.  Could you give us --

14             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I still wanted to take between four and four

15     and a half hours.  As Your Honours know, we dropped a witness who is

16     going to be dealing with the Krajina and therefore I wanted to take a

17     little bit longer with this witness to deal with some aspects of the

18     Krajina.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We'll see.  Please try to avoid repetitions

20     from what is already on paper.  That's what sometimes happens.

21             Further, I would like to remind you that if a witness testifies

22     under Rule 92 ter in open court, that you are supposed, as a matter of

23     fact already at the beginning, to read a summary so as to inform the

24     public about what your follow-up questions, what they do follow up at.

25             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

Page 12684

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That you might have forgotten that.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  We did, yes.  I did.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's move on.  And please keep in mind that

 4     is important for the public character of the trial.  Please proceed.

 5             MR. JORDASH:

 6        Q.   Before we turn to this diary, I just want to ask you about, just

 7     very briefly, about Milan Babic's various titles, and I don't think

 8     there's going to be a dispute, so I'll lead unless there's objection.

 9             Milan Babic in 1990 was the president of the municipal committee

10     of the SDS in Knin; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And in the same year, he was president of the Knin Municipal

13     Assembly; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And in the same year, he was president of the temporary

16     presidency of the community of Northern Dalmatia and Lika municipalities;

17     is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And in the same year, he was president of the

20     Serbian National Council; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And in the same year, he was president of the SAO Krajina?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And in the same year, he was president of the temporary Executive

25     Council of the SAO Krajina?

Page 12685

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And in 1991 he was a member of the regional committee of the

 3     SDS Krajina?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And in the same year, he was president of the Executive Council

 6     of the SAO Krajina?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And in 1991, same year, he was president of the Government of the

 9     SAO Krajina?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And in the same year, he was the commander of the TO of the

12     SAO Krajina?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And in the same year, he was the defence minister in the Krajina?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And in the same year, he was the commander of the

17     SAO Krajina Armed Forces?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Are you able, just very briefly, to give an insight into how one

20     man managed to accumulate so many titles?

21        A.   Well, admittedly not all of these functions were held at the same

22     time.  But at any given time, Babic had several title.  We trusted him

23     and we thought it best for him to occupy some of the key positions.

24        Q.   And during 1990 and 1991, were those positions given to him by

25     vote?

Page 12686

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Were there those within the various bodies, from the

 3     National Council to the Executive Council to the government, who opposed

 4     his election?

 5        A.   For the most part, no, unless there was a personal confrontation

 6     like in the case of the presidents of the municipalities of Korenica and

 7     Lapac.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Let's turn to the Mladic diaries.  And 65 ter 5595

 9     and page 24, which is on the screen.  And it relates to entry on the

10     1st of July, 1991.  Now, were you familiar, in your political role, with

11     military events on the ground during 1991?  Did you receive information

12     about the role of the army and the role of Mladic?

13        A.   About the role of the army, yes.  And Mladic was mentioned both

14     in the areas of Dalmatia and Kordun, where I personally participated in

15     communications, meetings, discussions.

16        Q.   What was the source of your information, in the main?

17        A.   For the general picture, it was Mr. Milan Babic and other persons

18     I met within Knin.  As for Kordun, they were members of the police,

19     representatives of the zone staff of the Territorial Defence with whom we

20     as representatives of either the party or the civilian authorities would

21     communicate.  And some of them we even nominated for appointment within

22     the TO, where they were appointed by Babic.  And finally, the TO was part

23     of the army, and it was in that context that we also learned of the

24     various issues concerning the army.

25        Q.   Would you attend meetings which concerned the role of the TO in

Page 12687

 1     1991?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   What kind of meetings were they?

 4        A.   They dealt with the way in which the TO was supposed to be set up

 5     and operate, because Babic was not successful in having a unified system

 6     of the TO up and running across Krajina in terms of all the TO commanders

 7     who were appointed, being his own men, men loyal to him and the SDS.

 8        Q.   So how did that fact become part of the meetings?  Who was

 9     meeting, and in what circumstances, concerning the unification of the TO?

10        A.   There was a meeting of the Main Board, and later just we from the

11     area of Kordun remained with Babic.  There was me and another three

12     people from Banija.  There was Mile Paspalj, who later was the president

13     of the Assembly of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina.

14             The problem arose in connection with a fact, that the TO in the

15     area of Kordun, the municipal TO of Kordun, Vojnic, and Vrginmost,

16     accepted Mile Dakic whom Mile Babic had appointed commander of the TO.

17     So the discussion was about how to overcome the situation.  And

18     Milan Babic said then that the best thing to do would be for him to

19     consult his contacts within the federal Secretariat of National Defence

20     in Belgrade, and following an agreement with them in respect of the zone

21     staffs, we should appoint retired officers who hailed from Krajina and

22     were now retired and lived in Serbia.

23             In fact, we accepted this idea of his, and shortly thereafter new

24     appointments were made and staffs were established, appointed by

25     Milan Babic, which started functioning throughout the Krajina area.

Page 12688

 1        Q.   Let's break that down a little.  When did these events you've

 2     just described take place?

 3        A.   This took place in 1991.  Now, was it March or May?  I cannot be

 4     sure now.

 5        Q.   What was Babic's principal complaint?

 6        A.   Babic's principal complaint was that the personnel that he wished

 7     to have replaced were people from the communist era and that they were

 8     perhaps also co-operating with the Croats and that that should be

 9     changed.  But because of the resistance --

10        Q.   Let me take this step by step, please.  Babic wanted to replace

11     which personnel?

12        A.   The TO staff commanders in the areas of Kordun and Banija

13     municipalities, which later accepted to join the SAO Krajina, those

14     municipalities, that is.

15        Q.   Why did he want to replace the TO staff commanders in Kordun and

16     Banija municipalities?

17        A.   In order to appoint his people, his party, people who were

18     suitable for him, who suited him not only according to the party line but

19     also in other ways.

20        Q.   Who had selected the TO staff commanders in Kordun and Banija,

21     the ones he wanted to replace?

22        A.   Well, they were there in the earlier system, the so-called system

23     of national defence at the level of Yugoslavia.  These people

24     specifically had been appointed by the TO staff of Croatia at the time

25     while Yugoslavia still was a single state.

Page 12689

 1        Q.   What action did he take to try to replace the TO staff

 2     commanders?

 3        A.   He issued orders on the replacement of these people and orders on

 4     reappointments, on appointments.

 5        Q.   Who did he issue orders to?

 6        A.   He issued these orders to the municipal TO staffs for the

 7     replacement of so and so - I cannot recall the exact names at this

 8     point - and for so and so to be installed in that person's stead.

 9        Q.   And was the order followed?

10        A.   Not all of them.

11        Q.   On what basis was there a refusal to follow the order?

12        A.   People at the local level were of the view that the proposed

13     people were not, A, competent, and, B, that that he did not have the

14     necessary authority in the area.

15        Q.   What happened when they refused to follow the order?

16        A.   Babic looked for another solution and he came up with the idea

17     that zone staffs should be established and that he should discuss with

18     the federal Secretariat of National Defence in Belgrade the actual names

19     and agree on them, that they should be professionals, that they should

20     hail from the area of Krajina.  And for the most part these were retired

21     JNA officers.

22        Q.   Did he discuss with members of the federal Secretariat of

23     National Defence?

24        A.   Absolutely.  He actually brought back ready-made solutions.  He

25     signed the order on their appointment.

Page 12690

 1        Q.   Do you know who he spoke to in the federal Secretariat of

 2     National Defence, who he was co-operating with?

 3        A.   I believe that his name was Jokic.  I'm not quite certain.  It is

 4     Jokic with a J.  And there were quite a few other names that I cannot

 5     recall at this moment, but I do know that the address was federal

 6     Secretariat for National Defence, Admiral Jokic.

 7        Q.   And how was this issue then resolved?

 8        A.   These officers were appointed and they came and the zone staff

 9     was established first for Kordun and later for Kordun and Banija.  And

10     principally in the command structures of these staffs were men appointed

11     by Babic at the proposal of the federal Secretariat for National Defence.

12     And pursuant to an agreement with the federal Secretariat, they actually

13     arrived in our area.

14        Q.   Were you in communication with Babic during this period over this

15     event and over these circumstances?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Who did Babic blame at that time for the circumstances that

18     transpired, the refusal of the local TO or local authorities to follow

19     his order?

20        A.   Well, the representatives of the local authorities.

21        Q.   Can you remember who they were?

22        A.   Well, the president of the municipality, the president of the

23     Executive Council of the municipality, the chief of the police.

24        Q.   Did he hold Martic responsible for any of these circumstances?

25        A.   No, he did not.  No.

Page 12691

 1        Q.   Did he ever mention Stanisic or Simatovic or anyone from the

 2     Serbian DB?

 3        A.   Never, ever.  On no occasion did he mention them.  What he would

 4     say is these are those old Commies who forget that the communist era has

 5     passed, and they belong to the League of Communists - Movement for

 6     Yugoslavia.

 7        Q.   Were you in agreement with his views at that time?

 8        A.   Well, I was, because what mattered to me was that those people

 9     should be from Kordun.  And they had high ranks, they were majors or

10     colonels, and I thought that quite sufficient.  But actually I did not

11     personally know any of those people nor had I proposed them nor had any

12     one of the people that I knew.

13        Q.   Let's return or let's start with the Mladic diary.  And page 24,

14     relating to July 1991.  And in particular, the 1st of July, 1991.  And

15     Mladic notes that:

16             "The army has a task and a holy duty to prevent a fratricidal

17     war.  We must be proud of the fact that not a single victim has fallen in

18     the zone of the corps."

19             At that time are you able to -- let me start that again.

20             Putting yourself back into that time, taking your mind back to

21     July 1991, do you know what view you held about the role of the army, the

22     JNA, at that point?  And I mean you as an individual.

23        A.   Let me put it this way:  It was a cold and warm position, a

24     lukewarm position.  We expected the JNA to fulfill its mission, the

25     raison d'être of the JNA, to protect the territory of Yugoslavia overall,

Page 12692

 1     including us in that Yugoslavia.  But what bothered us was the fact that

 2     those officers still lived in the communist era.  They still carried this

 3     five-pointed star, a symbol of that past failed system.  And we did not

 4     want our members of our defence to wear the five-pointed star; we wanted

 5     them to take it off.  So that it was lukewarm or, rather, cold and warm

 6     in that system.  They had not kicked their old habits as yet.

 7        Q.   In July of 1991, what role did the JNA play in relation to the

 8     events in the regions you were politically active in?

 9        A.   The JNA's task was, and initially it did that, to prevent the

10     conflict.  But it did not do much to disarm the

11     already-existing paramilitary units in Croatia, but [indiscernible] our

12     relations with it were correct, because the Territorial Defence in the

13     event of armed conflicts failed under the competence of the JNA and was

14     supposed to comply with the orders of the JNA.  On one occasion

15     reservists without arms went to Karlovac, called by the JNA, they were

16     then intercepted at the Karlovac bridge and all were killed.

17        Q.   You make the point that the JNA did not disarm the

18     already-existing paramilitary units in Croatia.  Did you and your

19     political colleagues form a view as to whether the JNA was acting

20     properly in relation to the Croatian paramilitaries?

21        A.   It was our view that the JNA was not acting, so to speak,

22     aggressively enough in relation to the paramilitary units.  While we,

23     until July or so, had only hunting weapons, they had automatic weapons.

24     And the JNA, the army was saying that they would disarm them, but they

25     didn't.

Page 12693

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have page 52, please.

 2        Q.   While that's being found:  Do you know what Babic's view was

 3     concerning the role of the JNA in July of 1991?

 4        A.   I believe that his view was shared with my own view and that of

 5     the majority of people, and I --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the end of the

 7     answer.

 8             MR. JORDASH:

 9        Q.   Could you repeat the last sentence of your answer, please.

10        A.   I know that Milan Babic communicated, talked with, and consulted

11     with Ratko Mladic, if that is what you meant.

12        Q.   Did Babic communicate with you any of those conversations?

13        A.   I cannot remember right now.  I think that once he talked about

14     this quarrel that he had had with Mladic regarding emblems.  And as I've

15     already said, our people were practically allergic to the five-point star

16     and because of that they would not respond to calls for mobilisation from

17     the JNA.

18        Q.   Page 52, Friday, the 12th of July, 1991.  Mladic describes

19     members of the "National Guard Corps passing through Lelas and entering

20     the defence line in Kijevo" and noting that the "numerical strength of

21     the members of the MUP corps is growing, women are seen in Kijevo,"

22     across the page, "along with unidentified men.  This is going outside the

23     framework of the agreement because three months ago there were 300 and

24     now there are 700 inhabitants."

25             Do you know what this reference relates to and do you have any

Page 12694

 1     information on it?

 2        A.   This refers to the village of Kijevo, where there was set up a

 3     police station of exclusively Croats in an area where there hadn't been

 4     one before.  This shows that the numbers increased, namely that there

 5     were continued provocations of Serbian villages.  Because to pass through

 6     a Serbian village which was called, I believe, Civljane, you had to pass

 7     through Kijevo.  This also -- there was also harassment and maltreatment

 8     and what have you, and that is why they were demands for the Kijevo unit

 9     to be disarmed.  But instead of that, the strength was increased.  Later

10     there was even a parade, and Vladimir Seks, as vice-president of the

11     Croatian Assembly, came in a helicopter to support them in that

12     provocation.

13        Q.   The entry goes on to say:

14             "Problem of providing passage through Kijevo for workers on their

15     way to work because members of the MUP can stop a bus and capture

16     hostages.  The same bus is also taken by members of the army and

17     inhabitants of Cetina."

18             Are you familiar with the events in Cetina?

19        A.   Well, I heard general information, not by name.  The Main Boards

20     named that it was a major problem and that those people were being

21     arrested and searched and harassed and that they were actually concerned

22     and apprehensive because they had to go to work to Knin every day and in

23     order to go to work they had to pass through Kijevo every day.  So that

24     this was a cause of major concern among the people throughout Dalmatia.

25             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have page 64, please.

Page 12695

 1        Q.   Page 64, as you'll see, relates to 15th of July, 1991, and Mladic

 2     writes, in the third paragraph:

 3             "That the JNA must ensure peaceful resolution of the crisis.  In

 4     our zone we can expect the situation to worsen, particularly in and

 5     around Benkovac."

 6             Did you observe the role of the JNA at this point in time and was

 7     it consistent with Mladic's description or not?

 8        A.   Well, we expected them to behave in that way, but they did not

 9     always conduct themselves in the way he has written.  We expected them to

10     be more resolute in dealing with the situation, in other words.

11        Q.   What do you mean by that?  In which way were they not resolute in

12     dealing with the situation?

13        A.   They did not disarm the paramilitary units which later provoked

14     much fiercer conflicts in which, in addition to JNA members, police

15     members as well as civilians perished, both on the Croatian and the

16     Serbian side.

17        Q.   Were they acting on anyone's side at this point in time,

18     July of 1991, from what you could observe?

19        A.   No.  No, they were not on anyone's side.  They were still

20     maintaining a neutral posture.

21        Q.   Just so that we're clear:  How do you know that?

22        A.   Because they were not taking any actions, irrespective of the

23     provocations coming from the Croatian side which also involved wounded

24     and dead.

25             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have next, please, diary 5596.

Page 12696

 1        Q.   While that's being found, let me just pick up on something you've

 2     just said, Mr. Bosnic.  "Because they were not talking any actions,

 3     irrespective of the provocations coming from the Croatian side which also

 4     involved wounded and dead."  What were the nature of the provocations and

 5     where were they?

 6        A.   Well, during the night they would be intercepting people,

 7     searches, opening fire at the villages.  As far as Kordun is concerned,

 8     there were attempts of the National Guard Corps patrolling through

 9     Serbian villages.  And at the end of July, the first killings of Serbs --

10     of Serb civilians in Kordun also happened, so that the Serbs started

11     leaving the city of Slunj, in which they up to that point tried to go on

12     living.  And because of that, Slunj became practically ethnically

13     cleansed or clean city without Serbs.  And not far from Slunj is a

14     military testing ground where there was a JNA unit posted which reacted

15     only in November when their electricity supply was cut and their movement

16     hampered, and so on.

17        Q.   How many men, women, and children of Serbian ethnicity left

18     Slunj?

19        A.   Well, it is difficult to say now the exact number, but at a

20     minimum 500 would be the number.

21        Q.   Where did they go?

22        A.   They went to the villages, Serbian villages, in the municipality

23     of Slunj, such as Veljun, Perjasica, Primislje, Zecevaras [phoen], and

24     others.

25        Q.   When was this departure of Serbs from Slunj?

Page 12697

 1        A.   After the killings which took place.  That was sometime in June,

 2     I believe late June or early July.  I cannot be sure.  I believe it was

 3     the beginning of July.

 4        Q.   Let's go to page 33 of this diary.  And the entry we're going to

 5     look at was written -- or, sorry, related to the 29th of August, 1991.

 6     And it's a reference, as you can see, to an "agreement reached on the

 7     28th of August, 1991, in Knin between the Knin corps commander,

 8     Mr. Krpina, president of the Crisis Staff for the Central and

 9     Northern Dalmatia, and the presidents of Drnis and Sibenik SO,

10     signatories of the agreement, is accepted."

11             Do you see that?

12        A.   I do, yes.

13        Q.   Do you know anything about this agreement?

14        A.   I do not know the specifics.  I only know that an agreement, a

15     truce, was signed.  That's all I know.

16        Q.   Do you know of the role of the JNA in relation to the agreement?

17        A.   As far as I know, the role of the JNA was that of mediator.  They

18     actually linked the two sides.  They were the guarantor that the

19     agreement would indeed be implemented.  And that, in fact, was the

20     principle.

21             MR. JORDASH:  And can we go to page 324, please.

22        Q.   324 is an entry which relates to the 10th of November, 1991.  And

23     perhaps if we go to the page before to get the context, 323.  And Mladic,

24     underneath the heading "Neso," speaks about Babic and Djujic, and notes

25     that "the staff made a mistake and blocked the mobilisation."

Page 12698

 1             And then there's further text before we go over the page.  We can

 2     see Mladic's view or I should say Mladic's writing, where he notes:

 3             "Djujic irritates things to have everything go to the JNA.  I'm

 4     concerned that the five-pointed star of Babic does not later turn into a

 5     cockade."

 6             Are you able to cast any light on that entry?

 7        A.   If this is Djujic who was chief of the TO in Babic's office, then

 8     this means that all the persons who are under the TO command should not

 9     go over to the JNA.  Mladic, on the other hand, wanted everyone to be

10     under the competence of the JNA because of his fears that Babic's

11     five-pointed star may turn into a cockade and that the TO may turn

12     against the JNA if they continue pressing us with the five-pointed star

13     and the symbols that we wanted to abandon.  We did not want a one-party

14     Yugoslavia; we wanted a democratic, multi-party Yugoslavia.

15        Q.   Were you privy to any conversations at this point in time that

16     Mladic had with Babic, whether being there personally or having spoken to

17     Babic or anyone else?

18        A.   I didn't attend the discussions that Babic had with Mladic.  We

19     only had certain indications as to what the reasons for the lack of trust

20     were and what the relationship between Mladic and Babic was.  At Kordun,

21     I did attend, occasionally, meetings of the TO, where representatives of

22     the JNA were in attendance as well.

23        Q.   Did Mladic -- I beg your pardon.  Did Babic speak to you about

24     his view of Mladic and the JNA in November of 1991?

25        A.   Babic's view was that regardless of the objections we may have in

Page 12699

 1     respect of the JNA, we did not have anyone else to rely upon, and that

 2     this is what we should be guided by in our relations with the JNA, as a

 3     necessary evil.

 4        Q.   You make mention there to Djujic being the "chief of the TO in

 5     Babic's office" and, it seems a decision, that "persons who are under the

 6     TO command should not go over to the JNA."

 7             Did this have anything to do with Babic?

 8             MS. MARCUS:  Excuse me, could counsel please identify what he is

 9     referring to.  You make mention -- sorry, could we just have the

10     reference that you're referring to.

11             MR. JORDASH:  Page 73, line 4 to 6.

12        Q.   Let me repeat the question for you, Mr. Bosnic.

13             You make mention to Djujic being the "chief of the TO in Babic's

14     office" and, it seems a decision, that "persons who are under the TO

15     should not go over to the JNA."

16             Did this have anything to do with Babic?

17        A.   Yes.  We believed that this was a way in which we would begin the

18     process of setting up our own army, that is to say, the army of the

19     Krajina.  And that at that stage, and such was the law, we were

20     subordinated to the JNA.  We thought that we should abide by this

21     situation, although there were people out in the field who were opposed.

22     Here they mention one Cubrilo who had already set up a Chetnik unit near

23     Gospic.

24        Q.   When you say "we believed that this was a way in which we would

25     begin the process of setting up our own army," who's we?

Page 12700

 1        A.   Milan Babic and the SDS leadership.

 2        Q.   Did this have anything to do with Martic?

 3        A.   As far as I know, it didn't.  Under the law, in times of war the

 4     JNA is re-subordinated to the JNA, and in this case it would be to the

 5     Army of the Krajina.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction: The police is

 7     re-subordinated to the JNA.

 8             MR. JORDASH:

 9        Q.   Did Babic take any steps to fulfill this aim of having your own

10     army?

11        A.   There was this one quite clumsy and failed attempt to set up the

12     King Peter's Guard, I think that's how it was called, in Kninsko Kosovo,

13     near Knin.

14        Q.   Was there a resolution to this apparent dispute between Mladic

15     and Babic?  Was Mladic able to subordinate the TO against Babic's wish?

16        A.   Yes.  Throughout Krajina up until Vance's Plan, the TO units as

17     well as all the police units were, before the commencement of military

18     operations, subordinated to the JNA, in other words, to their command,

19     complied with their orders, and implemented their plans.

20        Q.   Did Babic ever make a contemporaneous complaint during this

21     process suggesting that this had anything to do with Stanisic or the

22     DB of Serbia?

23        A.   I had known Mr. Babic for a long time and was in contact with him

24     after the war.  He had never mentioned to me any sort of pressure or any

25     contacts he may have had with Mr. Jovica Stanisic nor did I ever see him

Page 12701

 1     with Jovica Stanisic.  I would travel with him to Belgrade often, and I

 2     had never seen Jovica Stanisic before 1994 nor did he tell me that he had

 3     been with Mr. Stanisic.

 4        Q.   Let's return to your statement, if we can.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have D313 on the screen, please.

 6     Paragraph 73.

 7        Q.   Paragraph 73, you note that:

 8             "Milan Babic was my friend but I cannot believe that he claimed

 9     something," and it's been amended to "he claimed something like that.  We

10     went through a lot together.  But I can tell you what he said before

11     going to The Hague.  He was trying to get some assistance from the

12     official authorities of Serbia as to how to approach The Hague but no one

13     cared or made any suggestions."

14             Did you have a conversation or a number of conversations with him

15     about this?

16        A.   Yes.  Since Milan Babic was not on good terms with Savo Strbac

17     from the Veritas documentation centre, it was Savo Strbac who informed

18     me, it was still in English, that Babic was going to be indicted, that in

19     fact he was in that indictment charged with a joint criminal enterprise.

20     I went with that piece of information to Babic, who asked me what it was

21     that he was supposed to do.  I advised him to consult with the

22     authorities in Serbia, which was something that other individuals, common

23     friends, advised him to do.  But none of the official organs of Serbia

24     wanted to receive him and advise him on the future steps or tell him what

25     was going to become of his family.

Page 12702

 1             He was disappointed and ultimately said, somewhat brazenly as

 2     well in disparaging terms, If I should be the one to fall, then let

 3     everyone follow me.  Or, in fact, he said, If I am to sink into that mud

 4     pit, then let everyone else sink with me.  This was the result of the

 5     fact that nobody wanted to help him in Serbia as to what sort of a

 6     defence he should mount.

 7             Ever since he said that, I never saw him again until he appeared

 8     in The Hague.  I saw him on TV and reacted in writing to the statements

 9     he made there.

10        Q.   Let's go to paragraph 35 of your statement, and it concerns the

11     creation of Golubic.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask a question in between.

13             You earlier said - I didn't fully understand that:

14             "... from the ... documentation centre, it was ..." and then a

15     word is missing "who informed me, it was still in English, that Babic was

16     going to be indicted, that in fact ..."

17             Could you give more -- a little bit more detail as to what you

18     learned and how you learned it.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I received a phone call from

20     Savo Strbac, the director of the Veritas documentation and information

21     centre.  I suppose that he obtained the document in The Hague because the

22     document was still in English.  And it became obvious, on the basis of

23     this document, that Babic was in an indictment charged with joint

24     criminal enterprise.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you see that document? because you say it was

Page 12703

 1     still in English.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Savo Strbac made a copy and

 3     asked me to take it to Mr. Milan Babic because he was not on good terms

 4     with Babic, and I did as he asked me to do.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And was it then Mr. Strbac who told you what was in

 6     the document, or ...

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Mr. Savo Strbac told me that

 8     Milan Babic was in that joint indictment and asked me if I wanted to be

 9     the one to take it to him.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

13        Q.   Now, I want to just ask you a little about your knowledge of

14     Golubic.  In paragraph 35, you note that:

15             "Somewhere at the end of the May or the beginning of June 1991,

16     part of the youth volunteered to be sent to be trained in Knin."

17             Which youth volunteered?

18        A.   This was Serbian youth.  They were young men who manned village

19     guards.

20        Q.   You note in the same paragraph that:

21             "The young people from Kordun went to Golubic in late

22     May of 1991 ..."

23             "There were two groups who were sent from Kordun and Banija ."

24             When the people from Kordun went to Golubic in late May of 1991,

25     had Golubic opened at this point?

Page 12704

 1        A.   I think that it had just opened at that point.  Some of them

 2     joined the first group as soon as it was opened, and others followed in

 3     the second group.  So throughout its existence there were two groups of

 4     people who went to Golubic for training from Kordun, as far as I know.

 5        Q.   When did Golubic close?

 6        A.   When the second round of training was completed.  It was sometime

 7     in June or July, I'm not sure.  It had to do with the conflict between

 8     Babic and Captain Dragan.

 9        Q.   Are you able to say, just for clarification, how many groups were

10     trained at Golubic and what kind of numbers of people were trained?

11        A.   Well, if 30 people went there from Kordun in two groups, one of

12     which had 20 of them, the other 10 or vice-versa, so I suppose if you

13     look at the entire area of Krajina it might amount to some 200 or

14     300 people, but I can't give you the exact number.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, I'd like to seek one matter clarified.

16             You are talking about volunteers.  Now, that always confuses me a

17     bit.  Volunteers can, as far as I understand, be persons who make

18     themselves available for a certain job, but sometimes reference to

19     volunteers is also to persons who do something without being paid for it.

20     Now, what kind of volunteers are we talking about?  Are we talking about

21     those who go somewhere without being paid for what they're doing or are

22     we talking about those who voluntarily made themselves available but were

23     remunerated for their activities?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time of departure, the issue

25     of remuneration was not mentioned at all.  They went voluntarily in order

Page 12705

 1     to undergo training and share their knowledge upon their return.  Whether

 2     they were paid ultimately is not something that I know, but I don't think

 3     so.  But the understanding was not that they would be paid upon

 4     completing their training.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And was the understanding that they would be paid

 6     for any follow-up activities after the training?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, none of them went there to

 8     begin with in order to be paid ultimately.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether they finally were paid either for the

10     training or for what they did after they were trained, you do not know;

11     is that a correct understanding of your testimony?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that they were not paid

13     during their training.  Whether they received something later on, I don't

14     know.  I know that when they returned, nobody had received any pecuniary

15     remuneration during their training there.  That's what I mean; they

16     didn't receive money.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Did they receive anything else?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They received their uniforms,

19     bearing the insignia "Milicija Krajina," "Krajina Police," and we called

20     them "Martic's Police."

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Those were active as members of the Martic's Police,

22     were they usually paid for their activities?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the best of my knowledge, not in

24     Kordun.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  What do you mean by "not in Kordun"?

Page 12706

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew these individuals and I can

 2     speak for them.  I cannot speak to the other areas because I was not in

 3     contact with them.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. JORDASH:

 7        Q.   When the recruits or those who had been trained in Golubic

 8     returned to Kordun, what did they do?  What were their tasks or duties

 9     as?

10        A.   Their tasks were to continue manning village guards and to train

11     other young individuals, to train them the skills that they themselves

12     had acquired.  All the while, the police force which was operational in

13     Kordun and Banija and which had still been in contact with Zagreb would

14     be replaced by them.  This did not happen because in late June or July

15     the police from the municipalities of Kordun and Banija severed all ties

16     with Zagreb and recognised Martic as the secretary as well as the police

17     of the SAO Krajina.

18        Q.   Do you know how long the men from Kordun were trained at Golubic?

19     How long did the training last?

20        A.   15 days, I believe.  But I'm not sure.

21        Q.   Do you know what they were trained to do during those 15 days

22     or so?

23        A.   They were trained how to handle side-arms.  They had fitness

24     training.  They were trained how to move about as a group and communicate

25     with gestures rather than voices.  They were told that this was the way

Page 12707

 1     legionaires were trained, this because they were trained by

 2     Captain Dragan.

 3        Q.   Just to be as clear as possible:  What was it then that

 4     distinguished -- or what was it, in additional to those skills or the

 5     training received by the police generally -- let me start that again.

 6             What did they learn in addition to what was normal police

 7     training at that time?

 8        A.   Well, I don't know.  Simply how to use automatic weapons in

 9     combat and how to get by in combat.  I don't think there was anything

10     else that they were doing according to what they told me.  I didn't

11     attend the training.

12        Q.   And the object and purpose of the training was what, as you

13     understood it?  What was it they were being trained for and for what

14     purpose?

15        A.   To be the nucleus of the units that were supposed to be ready to

16     stand up to the Croatian National Guard and the Croatian police.  When

17     the police in Kordun and Banija agreed to join Knin and to -- rather than

18     Zagreb, they agreed to becoming scouts, reconnaissance units, for the

19     Krajina units.

20        Q.   Did Golubic open again after its closure in, when you think,

21     June or July of 1991?

22        A.   Yes.  Golubic was re-opened in 1992, in September roughly.  At

23     any rate, in the second half of 1992 Golubic was opened as a police

24     school for the training of ordinary policemen.

25             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have 65 ter 1557, please.

Page 12708

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, I am --

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The document is reported to me as not being in

 4     e-court, Mr. Jordash.  I suggest that you take 14 hours to find it.  And

 5     meanwhile --

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Because we have to adjourn for the day.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You are almost at three hours at this moment.  So if

10     you said you would need four to four and a half hours, could I then take

11     it that you try to finish at the first break or might need a bit more?

12             MR. JORDASH:  I think I can finish by the first break.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  By the first break.  That would be appreciated.

14             Meanwhile, Mr. Bosnic, I would like to instruct you, because

15     we'll adjourn for the day, I'd like to instruct that you should not speak

16     with anyone about your testimony, whether that is testimony you have

17     given today or whether that is testimony still to be given tomorrow or

18     perhaps the day after tomorrow.  We'd like to see you back tomorrow

19     morning at 9.00.

20             We adjourn.  And we'll resume tomorrow morning, the 13th of July,

21     at 9.00 in this same Courtroom II.  We stand adjourned.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day of

25                           July, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.