Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12898

 1                           Monday, 18 July 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

 8             This is case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic

 9     and Franko Simatovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             We have a matter, a pending request for protective measures,

12     which -- for which I'd like to go into private session.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 12899

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             May the witness be escorted in the courtroom.

12                           [The witness entered court]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Witness DST-043.  Can you hear me in

14     a language you understand?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that you

17     make a solemn declaration at the beginning of your testimony.  The text

18     is now handed out to you.  May I invite you to make that solemn

19     declaration.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

21     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22                           WITNESS:  DST-043

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Witness DST-043.  Please be seated.

25             Witness DST-043, a request for protective measures was granted in

Page 12900

 1     respect of you.  That means that the outside world will not see your

 2     face, that they will not hear your own voice, both the picture and the

 3     sound are distorted, and that we'll not use your own name but we'll call

 4     you "Witness DST-043."  Now, if there would be any question which if you

 5     would answer that question would reveal your identity, please ask that we

 6     go into private session, because then we'll exclude that the content of

 7     that evidence to be known to the public.  Is that clear to you?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, fully.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I add to that that sometimes by, for example,

10     telling details about the place where you were born or where you lived

11     may reveal sometimes key information relevant for your identity, so

12     please be very careful and don't forget to ask for private session if you

13     feel that your answer were at risk to reveal any such information.

14             You will now first be examined by Mr. Jordash.  Mr. Jordash is

15     counsel for Mr. Stanisic.

16             Mr. Jordash, please proceed.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I remind the parties to switch off their

19     microphones once the witness speaks.

20                           Examination by Mr. Jordash:

21        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. DST-043.

22        A.   Good afternoon.  Thank you.

23             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have on the screen, please, 1D4930, not to

24     be shown to the public.

25        Q.   Could you look at the personal details on the screen and confirm

Page 12901

 1     whether they are accurate.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  May I tender that as an exhibit under seal, please.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be D321, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  D321 is admitted into evidence under seal.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  May we have 1D4918 on the screen, not to be shown

 8     to the public.

 9        Q.   What you are going to see on the screen, DST-043, is a document

10     purporting to be a statement given by you.  Given by you on the --

11     in June of 2005; 13th of March, 2007; 19th and 26th of May, 2011; 28th

12     and 29th of June, 2011.  Do you recognise the statement and do you

13     recognise your signature at the bottom left-hand corner?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And do you recall giving this statement on the dates that I've

16     just outlined?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to review that statement before

19     coming to court today?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Let me take you to paragraph 43, please.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  That the B/C/S booth has

23     problems with both their consoles and cannot work at this moment.  They

24     are being assisted by a technician.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  If it disenables you to do your job, then I'd like

Page 12902

 1     to be informed.  I do understand that if we start reading from the screen

 2     that that might cause already such problems.

 3             Mr. Jordash, any question which would require following a text on

 4     the screen should be avoided at this moment.  If we can't continue, then

 5     we have to wait for a second.  If you can phrase questions in another way

 6     or just reading, well, let's say, half a line from the screen, then

 7     you're invited to read them and then they will be translated.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.  There's couple of very small

 9     amendments I'd like to deal with if that's not beyond the technical --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's give it a try.  And I expect the booth to

11     immediately intervene when it causes them problems, insurmountable

12     problems.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. JORDASH:

15        Q.   I want to read you the first sentence of paragraph 43 and ask you

16     whether you'd want to make a clarification to that statement:

17             "I was already mobilised by the TO in July of 1990, and each

18     mobilised person would be given a weapon in accordance with the rank that

19     the person would have within the JNA."

20             Would you like to make a clarification or amendment to that

21     statement?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   What's the amendment or clarification you'd like to make?

24        A.   I don't want to make any amendments.  I just want to state that

25     everything is accurate and as you described it.

Page 12903

 1        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to paragraph 57.  In paragraph 57 the statement

 2     says that:

 3             "On the 26th of August, 1991, village Kijevo was attacked ..."

 4             Did you want to make an amendment to the date?

 5        A.   No.  That's the correct date, the 26th of August, 1991.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Are there any amendments you'd wish to make to this

 7     statement, having reviewed this before you came into court?

 8        A.   No.  I can add, though.

 9        Q.   Before we go there, let's have a look on --

10             MR. JORDASH:  Let's have on the screen 1D4928.

11        Q.   Do you recall going through this statement prior to coming to

12     court today and making the amendments as outlined in this document?

13             MR. JORDASH:  Not to be shown to the public, please.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do recall that.

15             MR. JORDASH:

16        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to have a look at the amendments and

17     ensure that they were the ones you wanted to make?

18             MR. JORDASH:  We can go to the next page as well, please, so you

19     can see and get the full picture.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is completely correct.

21             MR. JORDASH:

22        Q.   Apart from those amendments, is there anything you'd wish to

23     change in the statement?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Does the statement and the amendment reflect the truth?

Page 12904

 1        A.   Yes, the truth as I know it.  And whatever I knew, I stated and

 2     wrote down and signed.  This is the extent of my knowledge.

 3        Q.   And if you were asked the same questions, in substance you'd give

 4     the statement answers?

 5        A.   There's only one answer to the truth.  If the truth has two

 6     answers, then one of them must be a lie, so of course I would give the

 7     same answers.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  May I tender these -- this statement 1D4918 and the

10     proofing note 1D4928, please.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

12             MR. WEBER:  With respect to 1D4918, which is the statement, the

13     Prosecution maintains its position regarding the late disclosure of

14     statements and their subsequent use pursuant to Rule 92 ter.  The

15     Prosecution stands on its earlier submissions of 28 June and

16     11 July, 2011.  With respect to the proofing note, the Prosecution --

17     that was not part of the 92 ter application; we're a little bit confused

18     in terms of the witness's answers.  He said that he had additions.  We do

19     see that there are additions, and the witness was also shown

20     paragraph 57, confirmed the date, but I see that there's changes now in

21     paragraph 57 in the note, so we do have a question as to the reliability

22     of the information contained in the proofing note.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  May the interpreters interrupt again.  The

24     B/C/S booth has trouble hearing speakers on both consoles again and are

25     asking for a brief adjournment.

Page 12905

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We will adjourn for a brief moment because it's --

 2     apparently it's hearing rather than looking at the screen, from what I --

 3     both problematic.  We will adjourn.  We have some technical problems.  I

 4     hope that they will be resolved soon.  And everyone is invited to remain

 5     standby.

 6                           --- Break taken at 2.42 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 2.46 p.m.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber was informed that the technical

 9     difficulties have been resolved.

10             Oh, yes.  Yes, I should have noticed that.

11             The only thing I said up to now was that the Chamber was informed

12     that the technical difficulties had been resolved.

13             Mr. Jordash, then we are at a point where you asked about the

14     date, 26th, in the statement.  The witness said the date was accurate.

15     Then you asked him to look at the proofing note, which the date is

16     changed, and he was happy with that as well.  Can you resolve that

17     matter.

18             MR. JORDASH:  I'll try.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. JORDASH:

21        Q.   Could we please -- Mr. DST-043, could you please have a look at

22     page 2 of this note and the reference to paragraph 57.

23        A.   Yes, it's quite clear to me.  Can I comment on this?  Further to

24     this, mention is made of the travel by Milan Babic through Kijevo, and I

25     didn't read paragraph 57 properly.  The right date was the 26th because

Page 12906

 1     it was a day or two later he had gone through the village, which had been

 2     liberated by the Croatian National Guard, because his father-in-law had

 3     been killed on the 24th of August in Vrlika, on his own threshold.  And I

 4     know that regardless of the killing of his father-in-law, Babic was in

 5     Belgrade on the 25th in a meeting with Mr. Milosevic.  So I know for a

 6     fact that the date of the attack on Kijevo was the 26th of August, so it

 7     was my mistake.  I missed the proper date by a day.  So I actually made

 8     the mistake whilst making this amendment.  The accurate date is the 26th.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you for the clarification.  I hope that

10     assists.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's clear now.

12             Mr. Weber, let me just go back to -- is it your view that the

13     92 ter statement could not be admitted into evidence, that we should deny

14     admission which would result in hearing all the evidence in -- or is it

15     that you want to have put on the record that the way in which it was --

16     and especially the point in time when it was disclosed to you causes

17     problems for the OTP and that you reserve your position in relation to

18     further time for preparing for cross or, well, whatever remedy you would

19     want to seek?

20             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the Prosecution is maintaining its

21     position, we wanted to put that on the record, with respect to the late

22     disclosure of statements that are being then tendered pursuant to

23     Rule 92 ter and the non-disclosure of statements in general, if any.

24             Then with respect to 92 ter and the specific admission of this,

25     we would maintain that because we do not know the totality of the Defence

Page 12907

 1     case and do not have everything that we do suffer a prejudice.  In

 2     addition to that, it does greatly affect our preparations and our ability

 3     to analyse and identify materials, the late disclosure.  On top of it,

 4     the format of these statements represent statements that are taken over

 5     the course of many years.  It is customary practice for the OTP to

 6     typically take new statements.  With respect to this one, I have noticed

 7     that Mr. Jordash was in court on the two of the dates that are listed for

 8     the statement.  So there are some technicalities on top of it that are a

 9     little misleading and do deprive us of the ability to fully explore

10     certain lines of cross-examination based on the format of these

11     statements.

12             With that being said, those are our submissions.  There are many

13     ways that we could address this.  I am happy to -- if the Chamber is

14     inclined to give me leeway on cross-examination due to the late notice to

15     fully explore topics with the witness that the witness discusses in late

16     disclosure, I can address those that way.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I see that.  It is -- I see all the points you

18     are addressing.  Now, do you say it's -- we should not admit the

19     92 ter statement?

20             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the Prosecution appreciates the

21     efficiency and practicalities that are associated with Rule 92 ter and

22     the fact that the witness has laid the foundation for it.  For us to --

23     simply for formality's sake or just simply oppose it, we do have

24     opposition to the practice that's going on so far in the Defence case and

25     we leave it to your discretion then whether or not the Chamber would like

Page 12908

 1     to admit this, as we do understand that it may make the proceedings more

 2     efficient.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- and the proofing notes, the one matter which

 5     cause some confusion being clarified, do you object to admission of the

 6     proofing notes?

 7             MR. WEBER:  Our submissions would be the same.  And with respect

 8     to it, we have a statement that's signed on one date that's disclosed on

 9     the 12th of July, 2011, and then we have a proofing note right after the

10     witness was -- apparently reviewed the statement and then made a rather

11     large number of corrections immediately after he did that, so if

12     Mr. Jordash wants to elicit further evidence as to the process by which

13     the statement was reviewed, we will further consider the admission of the

14     proofing note.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you agree with me that the amendments are

16     not really undermining the whole of the statement, this is a -- this is

17     perhaps -- it's -- these are details; would you agree with that?

18             MR. WEBER:  As I read the proofing note, they are essentially

19     additional facts that could be led through the 92 ter process through the

20     use of the statement, and, yes, they are additional details that are

21     provided on comments.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             Mr. Petrovic, your views on admissibility of ...

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't think that

25     there are any obstacles for the statement and the proofing notes to be

Page 12909

 1     admitted into evidence.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  May I briefly respond?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's -- let me first consult with my

 5     colleagues.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Both the 92 ter statement and the proofing notes

 8     will be admitted into evidence, and at least, Mr. Jordash, they will be

 9     admitted.  I have not admitted them yet.

10             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that we have two matters:  The first

12     is a kind of general criticism on the way in which documents are

13     disclosed; the other one is admission into evidence of these two

14     documents.  We'd like to limit ourselves at this moment to this, and not

15     in the presence of the witness start a new argument about the other

16     matters which, if need be, an opportunity will be given to them.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Well, Your Honour, we would like an opportunity

18     because what my learned friend has said can be met.  And we don't accept

19     the accuracy of what -- most of what my learned friend has said, not in

20     the slightest, so we would like an opportunity to respond to what are

21     complaints without merit.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well at least whatever merit there may be or

23     may not be in the complaints, they have not led to the non-admission of

24     these two documents.  And for very practical reasons I'd like to move on

25     with this witness for the time being.

Page 12910

 1             Madam Registrar, the numbers would be ... the 92 ter

 2     statement ...

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  The numbers would be D322 and D323, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  D322 is admitted into evidence under seal, and

 5     that's the 92 ter statement.  D323 is admitted into evidence under seal

 6     and is the -- are the proofing notes.

 7             Then there's a request pending on adding documents to the

 8     65 ter list.  Mr. Weber, that is annex -- that's confidential Annex C to

 9     the motion, the Stanisic motion for the admission of written evidence of

10     Witness DST-043 and related exhibits, dated the 13th of July.  Any

11     objections against admission of the documents to the -- the addition of

12     the documents to the 65 ter list?

13             MR. WEBER:  No.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Then leave is granted to add them to the

15     65 ter list.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, now just ... the Annex B, list of

18     documents referred to in the 92 ter statement, there are five documents

19     which have not yet been assigned exhibit numbers, if I see it well.

20             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You'd like to have them admitted in the context of

22     the 92 ter statement?  Or would you --

23             MR. JORDASH:  I think the Prosecution position is that they

24     don't -- they're not sufficiently reflected in the statement, so I'm

25     happy to --

Page 12911

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you'll take care of that during the --

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  May we now have 1D4929 on the screen and not to be

 5     shown to the public, please.

 6        Q.   What you're about to see, Mr. Witness, is a chart listing a

 7     number of documents, and on the right-hand side a column for comments.

 8     Do you recall looking through a number of documents and being asked to

 9     provide your comments in this chart?

10        A.   Yes, I do recall it.

11        Q.   And did you have an opportunity to review the comments before you

12     came to court?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And did you make any clarifications you wished to make?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Do the comments you've made in this chart reflect the answers you

17     would give if asked the same questions or if you reviewed the documents

18     today?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And finally:  Do the comments reflect the truth?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. JORDASH:  May I tender this as an exhibit under seal, please.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

24             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution has no objection to 1D4919, 1D4920,

25     1D4923.  Those three exhibits.  The Prosecution would like to discuss or

Page 12912

 1     needs to further discuss 65 ter 1896 further with the Defence.  Hopefully

 2     we can resolve that over the next break.  And with respect to the

 3     remaining exhibits that are not already marked, we're still waiting for

 4     addition information, and we'd like additional information on the

 5     provenance.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me have a look.  The chart was 1D4929; that

 7     means that you want to discuss this further as well?

 8             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I apologise, I was jumping the gun maybe

 9     a little bit.  With respect to the chart itself, we ask that it be marked

10     for identification pending the resolution of the exhibits that I just

11     referred to.  And we have no objection in terms of the underlying

12     exhibits that I mentioned.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Which means that the documents you would still

14     like to discuss with the Defence are 1D4921 and 1D4922, and that the fate

15     of 1D4929 depends on the outcome of that discussion.

16             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, with respect to 1D4921 and 1D4922, the

17     Stanisic Defence was very kind and produced the documents for inspection

18     yesterday.  The Prosecution provided information at that time in terms of

19     additional information that we would like that may be led from the

20     witness and we left it to the Stanisic Defence to decide whether or not

21     they would like to lead that evidence today.

22             With respect to the other documents, I see there's some others

23     that are not marked yet, like 1D2404 --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm -- yes, because I now exclusively dealt

25     with the ones referred to in the 92 ter statement.  Let's take it step by

Page 12913

 1     step.

 2             1D4919, Madam Registrar, would receive number ...

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  D324, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  D324 is admitted into evidence.

 5             Under seal, Mr. Jordash?  I think we need that under seal.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, please.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             1D4920, Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  D325, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  D325 is admitted into evidence.

11             Also under seal, Mr. Jordash?

12             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, please.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Under seal.

14             1D4923 would receive number ...

15             THE REGISTRAR:  D326, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  D326 is admitted into evidence under seal.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And then the chart which is 1D2429 [sic] is --

19     should be marked for identification, Madam Registrar, and the number

20     would be ...

21             THE REGISTRAR:  D327, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  D327 is marked for identification under seal.

23             You may proceed, Mr. Jordash.

24             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

25        Q.   Mr. DST-043, now, the evidence we've just read and gone through

Page 12914

 1     is now before the Court.  I'd like to take you to your statement and ask

 2     you to clarify and provide some further details.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Please could we have D322 on the screen.  And

 4     paragraph 2.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Not to be shown to the public.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

 7        Q.   Now, in paragraph 2, the beginning of your statement, you

 8     describe a particular --

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Well, perhaps we should go into private session,

10     please, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 12915











11 Pages 12915-15919 redacted. Private session.















Page 12920

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

22             MR. JORDASH:

23        Q.   I'm going to ask you now about some aspects of your statement.

24     But if your answer would indicate your identity, then please indicate

25     before answering.

Page 12921

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have paragraph 8 of the witness's

 2     statement D322, please.  Let's actually go straight to paragraph 9.  Not

 3     to be shown to the public.

 4        Q.   You note there that:

 5             "Very quickly Milan Babic started to ignore and humiliate the

 6     people surrounding him, trying to create the impression that he himself

 7     achieved all prominent results.  Also Milan Babic started to gather a

 8     group of incapable but servile people around him, who were primarily

 9     concerned with their own interests."

10             Who did you have in mind when you stated this evidence?

11        A.   When I said this, I was referring to a whole host of incapable

12     people, such as Branko Mirkovic, Djordje Majstorovic, Branko Tankosic,

13     and a whole host of obedient followers, a group of privileged people.

14     And he instigated them to be corrupt because he only trusted people who

15     he favoured and he only selected blind followers.  He paid no attention

16     to their abilities, paid no attention to their intellectual abilities or

17     their education.  The only criteria was:  Do you applaud me, do you

18     respect me, or not.  That was the basic criteria.  I listed three men.  I

19     could list many more.

20        Q.   Well, take the three men that you've listed.  What positions and

21     roles did they play in 1990 and 1991?

22        A.   More or less they were not known people.  They didn't stand out

23     in anything.  They had not achieved anything significant.

24        Q.   Sorry, Mr. Witness, try to focus on the question and deal with it

25     directly, please.  Did they have official positions, the three that

Page 12922

 1     you've mentioned?

 2        A.   No.  I can also mention Rajko Ilic and many others.  They were

 3     insignificant people who held no positions at the time.  They were not

 4     interesting in any way whatsoever.  They were interesting only to

 5     Mr. Babic.

 6        Q.   Try to answer the question directly.  If I need further details,

 7     I'm ask you for further details.  Okay?

 8        A.   Very well.  Please go ahead.  Please repeat the question.

 9        Q.   Let me take you to the chart that you filled in.

10             MR. JORDASH:  D327, not to be shown to the public.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, that gives me an opportunity to correct

12     myself.  Page 16, line 2, I referred to the chart as 1D2429.  I made a

13     mistake there.  That was before it was admitted into evidence.  I made a

14     mistake because my previous reference was the accurate one which is

15     1D4929.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. JORDASH:

18        Q.   You were shown, as we will see, on page 4 of the chart, P1893,

19     which is an order issued by Milan Babic, minister of defence of the

20     Serbian Autonomous District Krajina government, appointing Stevan Cetnik

21     as commander of the Cetina TO detachment, dated 22nd of July, 1991.  And

22     you commented that Stevan was -- "Cetnik, Stevan was a friend and

23     neighbour of Milan Babic, and Babic is appointing him as TO commander for

24     the village where Babic originates from.  I remember this appointment."

25             What do you remember and how did you learn about the appointment?

Page 12923

 1     If the answer reveals your identity, please indicate so.

 2        A.   Stevan Chetnik.  And everything I stated here is accurate.  I

 3     learned about it either on Radio Knin or it seems to me that there were

 4     some neighbours and friends of Milan Babic who told me so, Musa Jovicic

 5     or someone else from that area.  I also know that this was part of his

 6     relentless struggle-jostling for positions within the TO, Ministry of the

 7     Interior, appointments of people and placing them under his control.  It

 8     was clear to all by that time.  This document was signed by him both as a

 9     TO commander and as prime minister, or whatever his position was, I don't

10     even know now.

11        Q.   Do you know whether he appointed other friends and neighbours or

12     friends or neighbours as TO commanders?

13        A.   Yes.  He kept trying to set up some sort of guard.  There were

14     repeated attempts do so from 1991 all the way through to the end.  Thus,

15     I know that back in 1992, in the period when he was no longer president

16     of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina, he gathered a group of people in

17     the Dalmatian Kosovo.  They called a priest and set up a regiment of the

18     Territorial Defence, which he called the Petar Mrkonjic Regiment.  He

19     appointed Rado Cubrilo as commander, Rajko Ilic as commander for

20     logistics, still another person as chief of security of the regiment.

21             All in all, this was a group of people who were trying to make an

22     army out of what was not army material.  The upshot was that there was

23     confusion and puzzlement among the Serb people in the Krajina area, as

24     well as among the population in general, and this kept happening over and

25     over again.

Page 12924

 1        Q.   During 1991, what kind of guard was he trying to set up and how

 2     do you know this?

 3        A.   From my discussions with him and with his associates, this is the

 4     sort of information I would obtain.  I know that he wanted to set up a

 5     guard because he wanted to have, in addition to civilian authority, a

 6     military authority and every sort of authority he could wield.  He told

 7     me on one occasion that he wanted to set up a guard, and I told him that

 8     it may lead to divisions among our people, and citizens in general.  I

 9     thought that it wasn't a positive thing to do at the time and that we

10     need to resort to the official bodies, including the JNA, for protection.

11             I also said that unless we are -- we enjoy the protection of

12     legal organs, our fate would be quite uncertain and the consequences may

13     be unfathomable.

14        Q.   Did he or his associates during 1991 indicate the object and

15     purpose of such a guard; why did he want to do this?

16        A.   No.  They did not provide explanations for their moves to anyone.

17     At the time there was one Captain Slavko Ozegovic by his side.  It was

18     more the case of keeping up appearances and pretensions.  Furthermore,

19     the Ministry of Defence had never become fully operational, not in the

20     true sense of the word.  It was only on the 1st of October, 1991, that he

21     brought along General Ilija Djujic as commander of the TO, as well as

22     Kasum who was followed by one Maksic.  Still it didn't take hold.  After

23     a while, realising that their activities were stonewalled, that various

24     orders were issued in their name, that they didn't even have proper

25     offices to speak of, they left the Krajina.

Page 12925

 1             This was followed by a different sort of re-organisation which

 2     was yet again designed by his crowd and himself.

 3        Q.   Let's just break that down.  You said in relation to the first

 4     group of people, Djujic and Kasum and Maksic, that their activities were

 5     stonewalled, that various orders were issued in their name.  Could you

 6     just elaborate on that, please?

 7        A.   Well, for the most part they were a captain without a ship and

 8     without any waters to sail in.  What do I mean by saying that?  They

 9     didn't have the basic conditions for work, from offices to everything

10     else.

11        Q.   And the reason for that was what?

12        A.   Knin is a small town.  It didn't have either the hotel and

13     restaurant or business premises and facilities.  Besides, it would so

14     happen that a person who was appointed by Babic on one day would be

15     ignored by him the next.  On one occasion he told me himself that people

16     need to be pleased; they need to be told that they are captains of ships

17     that are made of fog, as it were.  That's it.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Okay.  I notice the time, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I notice both the time and also the way in

20     which the examination develops.  It goes in many, many directions.  The

21     answers are often not really focusing on what the questions are, gives a

22     lot of explanation you're not asking for.  Could you please try to keep

23     the witness a bit closer to your questions.

24             And you also -- could you please answer the question.  If

25     Mr. Jordash asks you what was -- did they ever give an explanation, and

Page 12926

 1     then you said, no, they didn't, well, that's an answer to the question.

 2     And if Mr. Jordash wants to know more, he'll ask you.  So could you

 3     please be shorter and could you focus better on the questions.

 4             We take a break and we resume at five minutes past 4.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, you may proceed.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9        Q.   Let's go to P1894 in the chart.

10             MR. JORDASH:  So if we can go up slightly in the chart on the

11     screen.

12        Q.   P1894 is an order issued by Milan Babic appointing Milan Martic

13     from Knin as deputy commander of the Serbian Autonomous District

14     Krajina TO, dated 8th of August, 1991.  And you comment that:

15             "Milan Martic was very unhappy with this decision at the time

16     because he felt that Milan Babic was using him, moving him around, and

17     appointing him to different positions."

18             Did you speak to Milan Martic about this decision?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Can you recall what he said and what his view was concerning

21     Babic and his appointment?

22        A.   We discussed the issue.  There were other appointments of

23     Milan Martic before this decision taken in August.  Earlier on in the

24     month of May, I don't recall exactly the day, but in the space of two or

25     three days there were appointments and re-appointments.  I think that it

Page 12927

 1     was sometime around the 29th of May that he appointed him minister of

 2     defence and Dusan Vjestica as minister of the interior.  Several days

 3     later, on his travels around the area, he got word of Milan Martic's

 4     discontent, so he switched him from position to position and thus managed

 5     to undermine Milan Martic's credibility.  In fact, Martic and I were

 6     discussing this issue, wondering what his ultimate motive behind this

 7     all -- all of this was.  And we came to the conclusion that his ultimate

 8     goal was to place under his control all of the various structures and to

 9     appoint individuals such as Dusan Vjestica, who was initially appointed

10     as minister of the interior and later on headed several ministries.

11     Martic believed that this was a way in which Babic wanted to affirm his

12     authority and power.

13        Q.   Did you ever speak to Milan Babic about his various changes of

14     appointment for Martic?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Briefly, can you recall the conversation and how Babic justified

17     it, if that's what he did?

18        A.   No, he said, I know why I'm doing this.  He was not able to offer

19     any reasonable explanation at that point.

20        Q.   Do you recall any explanation he did give, unreasonable or

21     otherwise?

22        A.   I have the right to do this.

23        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to your statement, D322.  I want to ask you about

24     paragraph 17 onwards under the title "Log Revolution."  We're going back

25     in time.

Page 12928

 1             And while that's coming up:  You mentioned Vjestica, what kind of

 2     a professional was he?  Was he suited to be minister of the interior?

 3        A.   No.  He was not suited to the job.  He didn't have the requisite

 4     experience.  Admittedly he is a lawyer by profession, but he had never

 5     worked in the police.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  This, what's on the screen, should not be shown to

 8     the public.

 9        Q.   Did Vjestica have any criminal record?

10        A.   I don't know about it.

11        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Now, you speak in -- at paragraph 17 about the

12     Log Revolution and you make reference to attacks, night assaults of the

13     special Croatian police forces and their attacks on various police

14     stations.  Where were these taking place in August of 1990?

15        A.   At the time, the media constantly reported about it.  The events

16     took place in the areas of Benkovac, Korenica.  News spread of their

17     imminent arrival in the direction of Knin and Obrovac.  There was unseen

18     panic.

19        Q.   Panic, who was panicking?

20        A.   Citizens were panic-stricken and fearful of their personal

21     security and safety.

22        Q.   Now, in paragraph 18 you note that:

23             "The Log Revolution started spontaneously.  It is possible that

24     there was central organisation but no one told me.  There was a centre of

25     monitoring and reporting within the Civil Protection Department within

Page 12929

 1     all municipalities in the Krajina."

 2             Do you know who organised that centre?

 3        A.   The centre had been organised earlier on.  It was a early warning

 4     centre for citizens in emergencies, floods, earthquakes, and natural

 5     disasters in general.  It was operational on the level of the

 6     municipality and was part of the system of people's --

 7     All People's Defence and Social Self-Protection.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me take you back to the question.  The question

 9     was:  "Who organised it?"  Then you start explaining us what the purpose

10     was, what -- on what levels it was operational.  The question simply was:

11     Who organised that centre?  Could you please answer that question.

12             Please proceed.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  It was a structure that had

14     been inherited from the earlier system.

15             MR. JORDASH:

16        Q.   And at the time of the Log Revolution, who was in charge of that

17     centre?

18        A.   The centre was under the authority of the president of the

19     municipality and was, in fact, part of the municipality.

20        Q.   Which municipality?

21        A.   The municipality of Knin.

22        Q.   And who was the president of that municipality?

23        A.   The president of the municipality was Mr. Milan Babic.  From the

24     27th of May, 1990, all the way to 1994, regardless of the other offices

25     he held, he never renounced on his position of the president of the

Page 12930

 1     municipality.

 2        Q.   At paragraph 9, towards the bottom of the paragraph, you state:

 3             "In relation to the civilians on the barricades, there were also

 4     some Serbian policemen who had fled from the police stations controlled

 5     by the Croats."

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Oh, sorry, I think I said paragraph 9; I meant 19.

 7        Q.   In paragraph 19, towards the bottom of the -- or the middle of

 8     the paragraph, you sate:

 9             "In relation to the civilians -- in relation to the barricades,

10     there were also some Serbian policemen who had fled from the police

11     stations controlled by the Croats.  The weapons they had were hunting

12     weapons, semi-automatic rifles, and possible pistols.  They got these

13     weapons from the storages of the TO, and also the police forces had their

14     own weapons, as the Croats had not managed to take all weapons from the

15     police stations."

16             Where did you come by that knowledge?  How do you know this?

17        A.   I know that some of the Serb policemen who had fled were in Knin

18     because we would see them there.  Among others, the commander of the

19     Nis Police Station, Mr. Grubac, Mico, also left, as well as

20     Milan Knezevic, a man called Bjedov, and others.  As they were fleeing,

21     they took their weapons along, I believe.  Mico Grubac, the commander of

22     the Nis Police Station told me himself that when the Serb barricades in

23     Klanac on the road to Knin were supposed to come under attack, the

24     Croatian policeman called Metesi, Nenad Metesi, wrote a written statement

25     to the effect that he had been given a task by Ante Bujas and

Page 12931

 1     Nikola Vukusic, that these three individuals I mentioned should go ahead

 2     and that somebody should kill them, somebody firing from a machine-gun.

 3     And there were other policemen who had fled from the Croatian-held police

 4     stations.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, there's one sentence in the answer

 6     which directly is in relation to your question, that is, that who told

 7     you about how they got their weapons, and that sentence reads:

 8             "As they were fleeing, they took their weapons along, I believe."

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, I'm going to be a bit more forceful in

10     intervening.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that would be wise to do, because the

12     Chamber will monitor the way in which you examine the witness also in

13     view of time.  Please proceed.

14        Q.   I see you nodding.  You understand the problem?  Okay.  Let's --

15     I will ask directly --

16        A.   I understand.

17        Q.   Okay.  How do you know that these police officers and civilians

18     received their weapons from the storages of the TO?

19        A.   The weapons that the police took from storage facilities I

20     thought had come from TO storage facilities.  This because both the

21     police and the Territorial Defence had their own warehouses or storage

22     facilities that were located close to one another --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm going to stop you here.  The question was:  How

24     do you know that these police officers and civilian received their

25     weapons from the TO storages?

Page 12932

 1             Did you you see it, that they took it from those storages?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Did anyone tell you?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw the weapons being

 5     distributed.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  By whom?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By the police in Golubic.  This was

 8     specifically for Knin.  I was there.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  How do you know that these weapons came from the

10     TO storage?  Did you see that?  I think you answered that question.  Did

11     anyone tell you?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Jovo Dmitrovic told me, as did

13     Cenic, I can't recall his first name.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Who is Jovo Dmitrovic?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Jovo Dmitrovic was one of Martic's

16     assistants.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And what did he tell you and when did he tell you

18     about the weapons coming from the TO?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He told me so on the

20     17th of August.  He told me that it had been taken from a warehouse.  I

21     thought that it must have been a Territorial Defence warehouse or a

22     police warehouse.  To my mind those two were the same thing.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  He did not specify to you whether it was a police

24     warehouse or a TO warehouse where the weapons came from?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He did not specify.  But as soon as

Page 12933

 1     he said that they had come from a storage facility, I immediately

 2     inferred that it must have been it.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, please proceed.

 4             MR. JORDASH:

 5        Q.   How long did the distribution of weapons from Golubic last?

 6        A.   It lasted throughout the day on the 17th of August because that

 7     was when the feeling of being unsettled or upset among the people was at

 8     its highest.  But not more than seven days, ultimately.  It went on for a

 9     few days after that.

10        Q.   Who organised the distribution?

11        A.   I don't know who organised it.  I know that the police, namely

12     Martic, Dmitrovic, and some others who had transported the weapons over

13     there, that they had organised the distribution.  Since at some point

14     people began forcefully grabbing weapons, Dmitrovic asked me to make a

15     full list of all the weapons issued and the individuals that received

16     them, and I did.  It was all put down in a record.

17        Q.   Let's go to paragraph 42 of your statement.  And just before we

18     look at 42, you outline the distribution of weapons from Golubic on the

19     17th of August.  Is this -- which year is this?

20        A.   1990.

21        Q.   Now, at paragraph --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, isn't that obvious from the beginning

23     of paragraph 17 of the statement?  I mean ... I mean, let's try to elicit

24     evidence that adds substance and that assists the Chamber.

25             Please proceed.

Page 12934

 1             MR. JORDASH:

 2        Q.   At paragraph 42 you make the point that a delivery of weapons in

 3     November of 1990 was, as far as you knew, the first delivery of weapons

 4     to Knin, and you make the point that Nenad Maric was involved in this.

 5     How was Nenad Maric involved such that he was able to ...

 6        A.   Nenad Maric --

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Private session]

Page 12935











11 Page 12935 redacted. Private session.















Page 12936

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 5             Mr. Jordash, you may proceed.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7        Q.   How was Nenad Maric involved with this first delivery of weapons

 8     to Knin?

 9        A.   It is not my understanding that Nenad Maric was involved in the

10     delivery.  He was involved in selling the weapons.  I personally bought a

11     hunting carbine from Nenad Maric for 6- to 8.000 dinars.  As for the

12     delivery, it was done by Simo Dubajic, but I don't know how.  He would

13     come and everybody was saying that he was the one that delivered the

14     weapons.  Nenad Maric also told me that Simo Dubajic had brought the

15     weapons and he was only selling them, and that the weapons were from

16     Kragujevac.

17        Q.   Where did he sell the weapons?  Did he have a particular --

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 12937











11 Page 12937 redacted. Private session.















Page 12938

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

22             MR. JORDASH:

23        Q.   Where did Nenad Maric, if anywhere, base himself to sell these

24     weapons?

25        A.   The base for selling the weapons was in Golubic.  I can't tell

Page 12939

 1     you exactly where, but in the new part of the huts it was the third or

 2     the fourth door from the right.  It was in Golubic.  We called it the

 3     pavilion.

 4        Q.   Did this sale of weapons and distribution have anything to do

 5     with Milan Dragisic?

 6        A.   I believe that the sale and the distribution, and this is my

 7     opinion, didn't have anything to do with him.  Nothing to do with

 8     Milan Dragisic.

 9        Q.   Reading further down in -- actually, before we go there:  Do you

10     know what happened to the money that was raised by the sale of weapons?

11     Do you know what Nenad Maric did with the money?

12        A.   I don't know.

13        Q.   At paragraph 44 you return to the subject of weapons being

14     distributed from Golubic, weapons which had originated from TO storages.

15     Did this distribution of weapons have anything to do with Milan Dragisic?

16        A.   I think that this distribution did have something to do with

17     Milan Dragisic.

18        Q.   Why did you think this?  Did you see it happen?

19        A.   I did not see it happen.  But Milan Dragisic was a leader in the

20     Territorial Defence and he was always present there.  Milan Dragisic,

21     Stevo Sinobrad [phoen], and a man called Radulovic, I can't recall his

22     first name, they worked in the Territorial Defence in Knin.

23             If I may, I would like to add something because I think my memory

24     is better now.  I don't know how I could make this mistake.  So if I

25     could just direct the attention of the Chamber and the Defence.  In

Page 12940

 1     paragraph 43 it says already in July 1990.  It wasn't in July of 1990; it

 2     was in July of 1991.

 3        Q.   The weapons which you referred to in paragraph 43 coming from

 4     military warehouses in the regions, are you referring to weapons coming

 5     from the military warehouses in the regions in 1990 or 1991?

 6        A.   1991.

 7        Q.   And in paragraph 44, the weapons being taken from TO storages and

 8     transported to Golubic and distributed from there, which year are you

 9     referring to?

10        A.   1990, including weapons from the police.  As for where the

11     warehouses of the Territorial Defence and the police were, I really don't

12     know.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have, please, D302 on the screen.  Not to

14     be shown to the public.

15        Q.   This is a document you've looked at before and it's in the chart

16     1D -- sorry, D327, and it's the first exhibit in the chart.  And it's a

17     statement of man who was employed with the Knin Secretariat for

18     National Defence.  Are you aware of that organisation, the Knin Municipal

19     Assembly Secretariat for National Defence?

20             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, could we have the actual exhibit.  It's

21     D302 MFI.  I want to ask you about some of the facts detailed in this

22     statement.  Page 1 of the English and 1 of the B/C/S.

23        Q.   The author of the statement notes in relation to the declaration

24     of war by SAO president Milan Babic, "I am aware" --

25             MR. JORDASH:  This is halfway down, Your Honours, page 1 of the

Page 12941

 1     English.

 2        Q.   "I am aware that after a state war was declared, the staff for

 3     defence of Knin was formed."

 4             Do you find that Mr. Witness?

 5        A.   [No interpretation]

 6        Q.   The state for defence of Knin was formed in Omladinsko, Naselje

 7     settlement, in the village of Golubic.  The staff was later renamed

 8     Council of National Resistance.  I know that because the staff and the

 9     centre for informing communicated with each other by radio and

10     telephone."

11             Do you know or did you know about the Council of National

12     Resistance?

13        A.   Yes, I knew about it.  Sometime in September I myself was

14     involved in it.  It was an organ that was appointed by Mr. Babic.  An

15     organ that never met in full, actually.

16        Q.   Who was in the council, please?

17        A.   Members of this council were Milan Martic, Milan Babic,

18     Jovo Dmitrovic, and some other people whom I do not recall, and me.

19        Q.   What was its purpose?

20        A.   The purpose of the council was that if there was a major attack

21     or if war broke out then it would meet and it would find the best

22     possible solutions for the civilians.

23             MR. JORDASH:  Let's go to page 4 of this statement; 4 of the

24     English and 4 of the B/C/S.

25        Q.   Wherein the author writes, a third of the way down the English

Page 12942

 1     page:

 2             "Concerning illegal arming of citizens, I can say that it is

 3     widespread.  I know that about 1.300 guns and 400 pistols have been

 4     infiltrated into the Knin and Obrovac municipalities.  I know that

 5     600 guns have arrived in Strmica.  I think it was between

 6     15th of October, 1990, and 19th of October, 990.  They came from the

 7     Crvena Zastava factory based in Kragujevac, through the mediator RO Sport

 8     from Belgrade, which runs a business in Knin.  In Strmica, the weapons

 9     were received by Dragan Batas, a member of SDS, and the village of

10     Strmica local community, who stored them in a house near the church, and

11     they were being sold by Nenad Maric, a TVIK employee."

12             Do you know if this was the weapons supply you were recently or a

13     moment ago discussing, or is this something different?

14             Perhaps if you read a bit further down you get some more context.

15        A.   I can't tell you whether it was the same weapons, but it's

16     obvious that the weapons arrived through the same channels.  I believe

17     that it was in the same period that I bought my weapon, so it might have

18     been the same ones.  However, as far as I know, Dragan Batas was never

19     involved in the distribution or purchase at the time.  Dragan Batas and

20     eight to ten men were involved in the security of Milan Babic at the

21     time.  After there was a split between the two of them, he officially,

22     and until his death, he was the driver of the late Professor Raskovic.

23     As for the weapons, it's really unclear to me that he would have been

24     involved.

25        Q.   Just for clarity, you have produced a document --

Page 12943

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honours, 1D4919.  Let us have -- it's now

 2     D324.

 3        Q.   Which is a permit for a rifle or two.  One rifle, sorry.  The

 4     brand being Zastava M-70.  Is that the same weapon that you bought or is

 5     that something else?

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Not to be shown to the public, please.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is the rifle that I

 8     bought.

 9             MR. JORDASH:

10        Q.   And who gave you the receipt?

11        A.   This certificate was given to me by the SUP in Knin.  I filed a

12     request, it was approved, which meant that I could register this hunting

13     carbine.  Everybody who was selling weapons, including Mr. Maric.  That

14     is to say, when Maric told it to me, he put down my information.  I

15     couldn't have bought it and couldn't have said, Sell me another one

16     without registering it.  Everything was properly registered, and that's

17     how I got this certificate, this licence to carry a weapon or to possess

18     a weapon.

19        Q.   Now, the author of the statement we had on the screen a moment

20     ago talks about smuggling of weapons through various channels.  Do you

21     know anything about the smuggling of weapons through other channels other

22     than the delivery of weapons from the factory that we've been discussing?

23        A.   No.  I never heard about the delivery of weapons through other

24     channels.

25        Q.   The author of the statement also discusses the distribution of

Page 12944

 1     weapons from the Knin SJS warehouse, which was broken into on the

 2     17th of August, 1990.  Do you know anything about that?

 3        A.   Yes.  These weapons were transported to Golubic in a yellow

 4     lorry.  I believe it was the lorry of Drago Modrinic.  And when the

 5     weapons arrived, Martic, Dmitrovic, Cenic, and some other policemen also

 6     came, and a lot of civilians started gathering because a state of war had

 7     been declared.  There was all kinds of misinformation, that they had left

 8     from Gradacac, they were already here, that they had left from Drnis.

 9     Work was being done quickly and these weapons were being distributed, so

10     Jovo Dmitrovic asked me to help him write things down.  Some people had

11     already started opening the cases on their own, and he wanted to have

12     things under control.  So everything that was distributed on that

13     occasion was also registered.  And it was these weapons that eventually

14     ended up at the barricades which were at the full control of the MUP at a

15     later stage.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Let's have a look at 1D4922, please, not to be

17     shown to the public.

18        Q.   It's -- well, this document contains seven receipts for gas,

19     gasoline, purchased in August and September 1990, as well as some other

20     documents.

21             MR. JORDASH:  In relation to the receipts, let's move forward to

22     page -- to the last -- the fourth page, please.  I hope that's what we

23     are looking for.  Yes.

24        Q.   How did these receipts come into being?  What are they receipts

25     for and who was behind the receipts?

Page 12945

 1        A.   These receipts were issued by a gas station.  The income --

 2     the -- that's to say, the receipt states the registration plates

 3     Si-607-71.  I can't remember exactly --

 4        Q.   What was the gasoline used for?

 5        A.   The gasoline was used for the purposes of the

 6     Council of National Resistance in Knin on the approval of the president

 7     of the council and president of the Municipal Assembly of Knin.

 8        Q.   Can you recall what you were asked to do and why you used the

 9     gasoline?

10        A.   Since Golubic is some 5 to 7 kilometres away from Knin, it was

11     often necessary to go out to town for various purchases, because it was a

12     youth resort situated in the country-side.  So whether it was food

13     supplies, stationary, or anything else, it was necessary to go out and

14     purchase these things.  And the vehicle was also used to take

15     Milan Martic wherever he needed to go, as well as for other purposes.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Milan Babic.

17             MR. JORDASH:

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, could I go back to a matter which was a

20     subject of some questions earlier.

21             Do you remember that I asked you some questions about whether you

22     knew that police had taken weapons from TO storage or not?  Let me --

23     I'll take you -- and I asked you, Did you know, did you not know.  And

24     then you said, finally, that Mr. Dmitrovic had told you on the

25     17th of August that they had been taken from a warehouse but he was not

Page 12946

 1     very specific and that you had inferred from that that it must have been

 2     the TO.  Do you remember that portion of your testimony?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That was about weapons, 17th of August, once a state

 5     of war had been declared.  So you told us that you heard from

 6     Mr. Dmitrovic where they came from but he had not been very specific.

 7             Now, you were asked questions a minute ago about a statement in

 8     which the author of that statement discusses the distribution of weapons

 9     from the Knin SJS warehouse which was broken into on the

10     17th of August, 1990.  And Mr. Jordash asked you whether you knew

11     anything about that.  And then you told us a story that the weapons --

12     how they were transported to Golubic in a yellow lorry, et cetera.  The

13     two stories, the two events you are describing, seem to be the same

14     because earlier you said that you were asked to write everything down,

15     and that's what you said about these weapons that came from the Knin SJS

16     warehouse.  You also said, He asked me -- Mr. Dmitrovic asked me to help

17     him write things down.

18             Is that the same event you are describing?

19        A.   Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, around page 35, Mr. Jordash, the witness has no

21     personal knowledge where they came from, must have been TO, and now ten

22     pages later he describes that this was SJS warehouse and what vans they

23     were transported in.  So apparently he has -- you have knowledge about

24     where they came from and it was not only because Mr. Dmitrovic told you

25     it comes from a storage, without giving any further specifics, because

Page 12947

 1     you now confirm that they came from the Knin SJS warehouse, that they

 2     were transported in a yellow lorry.

 3             So that's -- I'm a bit confused about what you do know and what

 4     you do not know from your own observation about the source of these

 5     weapons, where they came from.  Apparently you're describing the same

 6     event, the same distribution of weapons.  How do you know that they were

 7     transported in a yellow lorry and that they came from the SJS warehouse

 8     which was broken into on the 17th of August?  How do you know that?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, after all these events

10     occurred in Golubic, an hour and a half later, at around 4.30 p.m., I too

11     arrived up there.  It was only logical, since I saw a presence of the TO

12     there as well as Martic's, Dmitrovic's, and countless policemen, as well

13     as many other people.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not talking about logic.  I'm talking about

15     facts you may have observed.  How did you know that those weapons arrived

16     in a yellow lorry?  Did you see the yellow lorry?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The yellow lorry was still there

18     when I arrived an hour and a half later.  I saw a yellow lorry, but I

19     don't know which storage facility it had been transported over from.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  So whether those weapons came from the Knin SJS

21     warehouse, you do not know?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have any evidence to that

23     effect.  I was never over there in that warehouse nor did I see the

24     weapons being loaded.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Or did anyone tell you that they came from there?

Page 12948

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they told me so.

 2     Nebojsa Stupar, Stevo Plavsic, Gloginja, Cvijanovic.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  So when I earlier asked you whether you knew that

 4     they came from the TO store and where you told us that Mr. Dmitrovic said

 5     that they came from a storage, without any further specification, it's

 6     now your evidence that quite a number of other people told you that these

 7     weapons came from the SJS Knin warehouse.

 8             Is that an accurate understanding of your testimony?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know to this day whether

10     what we told me is the truth.  But what I am telling you is what I know,

11     and that is the truth, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not asking you whether what they told you is the

13     truth or not.  Ten pages ago you told us that Mr. Dmitrovic told you that

14     the weapons came from a storage, without giving any further specifics,

15     and now ten pages later you tell us that others had told you or had given

16     more specifics.  Did they tell you, the persons you just mentioned, that

17     these weapons came from the SJS warehouse in Knin?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The persons I mentioned told me

19     that the weapons had arrived from a warehouse, a storage facility.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  So none of the persons who told you about where the

21     weapons came from did tell you anything more that they came from a

22     storage, without further specifics?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, please, you've

24     misunderstood what I said.  They told me that the weapons had arrived

25     from the warehouse of the Knin SUP.  However, there was another warehouse

Page 12949

 1     close by which may have belonged to the TO, I don't know.  But what they

 2     told me was that the weapons belonged to the reserve police force, and

 3     that is the truth.  They said that it was the weapons belonging to the

 4     reserve police force.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, at least what you're telling us now is clearer

 6     than it was before, but I really was confused.  Let's proceed.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have on the screen, please, 1D001228.

 8        Q.   This is, Mr. Witness, a article -- an article reflecting an

 9     interview with Babic on the 16th of August, 1991.

10             MR. JORDASH:  1D1229.  I beg your pardon.

11        Q.   You were shown this interview during the preparations for

12     testimony; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Had you seen it or heard about it previous to this?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   When and in which circumstances?

17        A.   I heard that a conflict had occurred.  It was on the

18     2nd of August on St. Ilija, when normally festivities are held, that

19     there had been a conflict between Captain Dragan and Milan Babic.  I

20     heard that Babic had sent Joko Majstorovic to hoist a flag on the Knin

21     fortress and Captain Dragan prevented him from doing so.  Subsequently

22     there was a terrible quarrel between Captain Dragan and Milan Babic.  I

23     can't recall whether it was before or after this particular incident that

24     Babic's best men came to see him at home, where Branko Mirkovic was

25     already present.  He laid his rifle on the ground and the rifle fired.

Page 12950

 1             Soon thereafter, Radio Knin, which was under full control of

 2     Mr. Babic, reported news of an attempted murder.  Following that,

 3     Mr. Babic took his family and went to Belgrade for a couple of days.  I

 4     know for a fact that he was not in Knin.

 5        Q.   And the relationship of your answer to this interview is?

 6        A.   Can you enlarge it a bit?  I don't see this at all.

 7        Q.   I think you may have been looking at the wrong article.  That's

 8     my fault.  Can you see the article in relation to the interview with

 9     Babic, where Babic is asked the question:  "At the moment, who is in

10     command of the SAO Krajina armed forces, who is the main man?"

11        A.   I don't see it here.

12        Q.   Do you not see the title "At the moment, who is in command of the

13     SAO Krajina armed forces, who is the main man?"

14             Is that not the first title?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  It looks as if it's the first question which comes

16     and that we do not have the whole of the translation, that we only have

17     the questions.  I think, but I could be wrong, that --

18             MR. JORDASH:  Perhaps we need to go to the second page,

19     Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Second page of the original?

21             MR. JORDASH:  Of the original.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That could be.  Let me.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just enlarge it, please.  Now we

24     have it.

25             MR. JORDASH:

Page 12951

 1        Q.   And the paragraph starts with the answer:

 2             "It is a far too serious job which requires both the politics and

 3     the expertise."

 4             Do you have that?

 5        A.   And which paragraph is that, please?

 6        Q.   The paragraph with the sentence:  "At the moment, who is in

 7     command of the SAO Krajina armed forces, who is the main man?"

 8             Do you have that?

 9        A.   I'm just getting it now.

10        Q.   Okay.  It's the left-hand -- top left-hand of the page, of the

11     screen.  Do you have it?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Okay.  So you've seen this interview before; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   When did you see it?

16        A.   Several days ago.

17        Q.   When Babic talks about the defence council, is that something you

18     were aware of?

19        A.   National Defence Council is not the same thing as the Council of

20     National Resistance we referred to; nonetheless, the National Defence

21     Council did not function in principle.  I don't think so.  What is said

22     here is only that the units and the council were under the command of the

23     prime minister, and he was the prime minister himself.  The council is

24     run by and decided upon by him.  That's my answer.

25             I don't know what exactly was your question, can you repeat it?

Page 12952

 1        Q.   Well, if your answer is that the National Defence Council did not

 2     function in principle, then I can move on.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  In order to avoid whatever confusion, what the

 4     English translation is about is apparently --

 5             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please wait for a second.  -- is

 7     apparently what is in the original on page 3, the middle column, one

 8     question ending at the top of the third column on that same page 3.

 9             Unless you disagree, Mr. Jordash.

10             MR. JORDASH:  No, I don't disagree, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We finally have to now clear on the record

12     what it is what we are talking about.  Please proceed.

13             MR. JORDASH:

14        Q.   The National Defence Council did not function in principle.  And

15     then you answered that the council was run by and decided upon by him.

16     Could you just clarify that, and then we can move on.

17        A.   Mr. Milan Babic.  What also follows from this interview is that

18     he wants --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you --

20             MR. JORDASH:  Mr. Witness -- sorry, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, that's -- I thought that the witness would

22     continue telling us what he considered relevant, where I expected you to

23     put the next question to the witness.

24             MR. JORDASH:

25        Q.   Did the National Defence Council exist or not?  Yes or no, I

Page 12953

 1     think, will suffice for now.

 2        A.   Yes, yes.

 3        Q.   And who was the commander of the National Defence Council, or who

 4     was in it?  Let me start that again.

 5             Who was in the National Defence Council?

 6        A.   The prime minister, minister of the interior, minister of

 7     defence, speaker of the Assembly, three deputies, and a number of

 8     military experts.

 9        Q.   Why do you say it did not function in principle?

10        A.   I don't think that it had ever met fully, meaning all members

11     present.  I don't have information to that effect.

12        Q.   Okay.  Let's move on.  Let's go back to your --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, apparently you are happy with a very

14     ambiguous answer.  They never met with all members means that they could

15     have met 20 times with all members minus one or that they never met at

16     all.  I mean, if you're happy with the ambiguous answers, then they do

17     not assist the Chamber.  That's -- you see, the functioning depends on

18     how often do you meet, were they always complete or not; and these are

19     matters the witness is -- I think they never met, all members present, is

20     an answer which -- how do you expect us to understand that?  That they

21     never met or that they often met with almost all members present?  I

22     mean, what do you think we could understand from that?

23             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I didn't think that it was a very fruitful

24     inquiry and that's why I moved on, but if Your Honours --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but, no.  We get an answer.  If you say, I'm

Page 12954

 1     happy with the ambiguous answer because apparently we can't get any

 2     clearer answer, then I do understand it.  But otherwise, of course, we

 3     are left in a grey area of ignorance, at least as far as the testimony of

 4     this witness is concerned, because that answer, you can interpret it in

 5     three ways or two or three ways; the one giving a fully effective but not

 6     always completely functioning body and the other interpretation is that

 7     it did not function at all because they never met.  Now, for us to make

 8     up our mind, apparently --

 9             Yes, okay.  Thank you.  If that's -- perhaps we should -- I'm

10     looking at the clock, perhaps it's also time close to a -- for a break.

11     Yes?

12             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll take a break, and we resume at five

14     minutes to 6.00.

15                           --- Recess taken at 5.28 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue:  Mr. Jordash, there was a

18     Stanisic Defence application for leave to reply to the Prosecution's

19     response and addendum to the urgent Stanisic request for provisional

20     release during the summer judicial recess.  Leave is granted, but we'd

21     like to receive your reply by noon tomorrow.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And then we'll see whether the Prosecution will ask

24     for sur-reply or not and whether we'll grant that, but we have limited

25     time.  It comes in late, and therefore limited time.

Page 12955

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. JORDASH:

 3        Q.   Let's just pick up very quickly on the issue of the defence

 4     council we were discussing.  You say that you thought it had never met in

 5     its full composition; correct?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you answer the question?  Have you heard the

 7     question that was put to you by Mr. Jordash?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could he ask the question again,

 9     please.  I didn't hear it.

10             MR. JORDASH:

11        Q.   We were discussing the interview given by Babic and his reference

12     to a defence council, and you said that you didn't think it had ever all

13     met at the same time.  Do you recall that?

14        A.   That is what I said, but I don't remember it being that way.

15     This was something I heard from other people.  The council was just a

16     facade.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there.  First -- one second.  First

18     question:  Do you know how often this council met?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, no.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, you would not be able to tell us, if they

21     met, whether they were complete or not?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Other people said that the council

23     didn't meet, while statements on behalf of the council were being issued.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, if you want to further explore the

25     matter, please feel free do so.

Page 12956

 1        Q.   As you can see, Babic says that the council was comprised of the

 2     prime minister, the minister of the interior, minister of defence, the

 3     president of the Assembly, three members of the Assembly, and a certain

 4     number of military experts.  Did it actually, this council, have any

 5     function and did it exercise those functions?

 6        A.   It did have a function.  It was more of a propaganda function

 7     because its clear that the prime minister and the minister of defence

 8     were in the council at the same time.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  They had one in the same function, the prime

10     minister and the minister of defence: interpreter's correction.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If anybody asked a question, the

12     explanation was that there was a threat of war so the justification was

13     always that once the war was finished, then we would slowly introduce

14     democracy.

15        Q.   Okay.  Let's move to a different subject.  Let's go back to your

16     statement.

17             MR. JORDASH:  D322, paragraph 47, and Golubic.  Not to be shown

18     to the public.

19        Q.   Now, just take yourself back, Mr. Witness, to early

20     February 1991, when, as you've told us in your statement, the buildings

21     in Golubic were being prepared and reconstructed.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Now, perhaps we can go into private session for a

23     moment.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

25                           [Private session]

Page 12957











11 Pages 12957-12975 redacted. Private session.















Page 12976

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             We adjourn for the day.  And we resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the

13     19th of July, at 9.00 in the morning in this same Courtroom II.

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 19th day of

16                           July, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.