Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12977

 1                           Tuesday, 19 July 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Good morning to you, as well, Witness DST-043.  And I would like

12     to remind you that the solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of

13     your testimony is still binding, that is, that you shall speak the truth,

14     the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15             Mr. Jordash, are you ready to proceed?

16             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.  Thank you.

17                           WITNESS:  DST-043 [Resumed]

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19                           Examination by Mr. Jordash: [Continued]

20        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Witness.

21        A.   Good morning.  Thank you.

22        Q.   I hope you are feeling better today and we can proceed clearly

23     and concisely, and I'll try to do the same.

24             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have, please, on the screen 1D4920.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  This is Exhibit D325, Your Honours.

Page 12978

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Apologies.

 2        Q.   Let's go through this systematically, Mr. Witness.  Firstly --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, you had forgotten to tell that it was

 4     under seal.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Not to be shown to the public.

 7             MR. JORDASH:

 8        Q.   Mr. Witness, I want you to look first of all at the stamp at the

 9     left-hand corner and the stamp at the right-hand bottom corner.  What is

10     that stamp, do you recognise it?  Perhaps --

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   What is that?

13        A.   It's a stamp of the Ministry of the Interior of the

14     Serbian Autonomous District of Krajina.  It's a stamp that was used at

15     the SUP in Knin.

16        Q.   Can you recall who stamped this document?

17        A.   Yes.  This document was stamped by Petojevic, Stevo, and

18     Radovan Vrzina.

19        Q.   Who is Petojevic, Stevo?

20        A.   He was a man who worked at the treasury in common affairs in the

21     SUP in Knin and also in the MUP of the Serbian Republic of Krajina.

22        Q.   There is a signature in the left-hand bottom of the document.

23     Whose signature is that, do you recognise it?

24        A.   It's the signature of Stevo Petojevic.

25        Q.   Now, you say he was a man who worked at the treasury in the

Page 12979

 1     common affairs.  What was the common affairs of the treasury?  What did

 2     it do?

 3        A.   This service did the payments, daily allowances, various costs

 4     that resulted from the functioning of the public security station and the

 5     MUP.

 6        Q.   Let's just break that down.  Payments, what kind of payments?

 7        A.   The payments of salaries, of daily allowances, and other daily

 8     minor or major costs.  It was a finance service and it was a part of the

 9     common services.  They were employees of the finance section.

10        Q.   What kind of personnel received salaries through this route?

11        A.   All the employees received salaries this way, all those employed

12     in the SUP of the SAO Krajina in the Knin Security Station.  Every

13     station had separate cashiers and separate services.

14        Q.   The Knin Security Station, is that different or the same as the

15     police station?

16        A.   It's the same thing.  The public security station or the police

17     station in Knin was the same thing.

18        Q.   Did the Knin Public Security Station or the Police Station have

19     any supervisory role in relation to the other public security stations in

20     the Serbian Krajina?

21        A.   I don't know about that.

22        Q.   When you say every station had separate cashiers and separate

23     services, what exactly do you mean by that?

24        A.   I mean that each SUP or each police station in Knin, Benkovac,

25     Gradacac, they had their own cashier and they had a separate log-book for

Page 12980

 1     daily allowances, for daily payments made, or payments received for

 2     purchasing office materials or other materials.  That's it.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  In relation to the various police stations, was there

 4     a sharing of funds or did they organise their funds separately according

 5     to each police station?

 6        A.   I don't know about that.

 7        Q.   You mentioned Radovan Drzina as another person who operated the

 8     stamp.  Who was he?

 9        A.   He was a cashier and he made payments, he received payments, and

10     he worked until late 1995 as a cashier.

11        Q.   Now, returning to the document on the screen, whose writing is

12     that?  Who wrote the receipt?

13        A.   I can't remember that.

14        Q.   Where was it written?

15        A.   It was written in Knin.

16        Q.   It says in the document that the amount received from you was

17     "brought from Munchen on the name," what does that mean?

18     "Cupkovic, Petar, brought from Munchen on the name"; do you know what

19     that means?  Is that what it says?

20        A.   Yes, that's what it says.

21        Q.   What does it mean "on the name"?  "Brought from Munchen on the

22     name"?

23        A.   From.  Basically it would mean from Slobodan Milunovic and

24     Luka Lalic.  On the name means from, from Slobodan Milunovic and

25     Luka Lalic.

Page 12981

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And who was Slobodan and Lalic, who were they?

 2        A.   Lalic was a Serb from Krajina.  He took this block of receipts.

 3     And Slobodan Milunovic was a priest in Munich.

 4        Q.   What do you mean that Lalic was a Serb -- sorry, let me start

 5     that again.

 6             Where did Lalic live at the time this receipt was formed or

 7     written?

 8        A.   Lalic lived in Germany at the time that this receipt was issued.

 9        Q.   And what do you mean by "he took this block of receipts"?

10        A.   He was issued this block of receipts because when he was issued

11     this, he also received some thank-you notes so that he could give those

12     to the people who donate money.  And he visited the area of Knin.  He

13     came to Knin from Germany.

14        Q.   And when was he issued a block of receipts?

15        A.   I don't recall the date exactly, but I believe it was in 1991.

16        Q.   And who issued him the block of receipts?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, would it assist you if you look at the

18     transcript of yesterday:  "I took a booklet of receipts, each of which

19     had three copies.  I handed them over to Luka Lalic."  Well, if you want

20     to know it again, then of course feel free to ask, but ... and that was

21     in the course of 1991, as the witness said yesterday.  That was your

22     previous question.  And then he said that there was a number of thank-you

23     notes, that was part of his answer today again in response to your

24     question.

25             MR. JORDASH:  I'll move on.

Page 12982

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Page 12970 in the middle of the page.  Please

 2     proceed.

 3             MR. JORDASH:

 4        Q.   You mentioned yesterday that this was receipt number 48.  Could

 5     you --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I see whether I understand the testimony of

 7     the witness.

 8             Is it true that you gave a booklet of receipts to Mr. Lalic, that

 9     he collected the money in Germany, that he issued receipts for those who

10     donated money, and that at the end the total amount of money was fetched

11     from Germany, was brought to Knin, and that the total amount was 9.970,

12     and that upon delivery of the money in Knin that receipt number 48 was

13     delivered; is that what you told us yesterday and today?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

16             MR. JORDASH:

17        Q.   And in relation to receipts 1 to 47, are you able to comment on

18     those receipts?

19        A.   No, I can't comment on that.  I don't know what amounts were

20     registered on them, but I do know that some payments were made.

21        Q.   And where did the payments come from?  From the same source?

22        A.   No, not from the same source.  Payments were made by various

23     other sources.  I don't know who but it wasn't from this source.  Only

24     this one receipt arrived from that source.  But there were various people

25     who collected money.  There were some people who came and donated money

Page 12983

 1     voluntarily.  That's it.

 2        Q.   Did Mr. Lalic then collect money from other countries or other

 3     locations in Germany?

 4        A.   As far as I know, no.

 5        Q.   Sorry, my fault.  Where was Mr. Lalic collecting money from which

 6     gave rise to the issuance of these receipts?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  What do you mean by "these receipts," Mr. Jordash?

 8     Not the one on the screen?

 9             MR. JORDASH:  1 to 47.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  First of all, you asked the witness:

11             "Did Mr. Lalic then collect money from other countries or other

12     locations?"

13             The answer was:  "No."

14             So, therefore, "Where was Mr. Lalic collecting from money from

15     which gave rise to the issuance of these receipts," 1 to 47 you're

16     referring to, there's an implicit suggestion that this was money

17     delivered by Mr. Lalic; whereas if we carefully listen to the witness, we

18     understand that that may not have been the case.

19             So, therefore, your question implies a -- you assume something in

20     your question which, as far as I understand the witness says, that's not

21     how it went.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Well, Mr. Lalic has the receipts.  I'm trying to

23     move from that point --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We have -- are you aware that we have two kind of

25     receipts?  The one is the receipts Mr. Lalic gives to those who are

Page 12984

 1     donating money, and the other receipt is as is receipt number 48, is the

 2     receipt issued by -- in Knin for receiving the money which was collected

 3     in Germany.  So we have a series of receipts in Germany given by

 4     Mr. Lalic - and I see the witness is nodding yes - to those who donated

 5     money.  And then we have the receipts issued in Knin for those who

 6     brought money in Knin, including, as number 48, a total amount of

 7     9.970 Deutschmarks collected in Germany.

 8             So these receipts is -- there are two series of receipts:  the

 9     booklet of receipts Mr. Lalic took to Germany in order to give it to

10     those who donated money, and the receipt received upon delivery of the

11     total amount of money collected in Germany to Mr. Lalic when he brought

12     that money in Knin.

13             So these receipts is confusing and -- but from your answer I

14     gained the impression that we have a totally different understanding of

15     what the answers of the witness tell us.  And if the witness disagrees

16     with the way in which I explained it, I'd like to hear that now.

17             But I saw you nodding yes, Witness DST-043; does that mean that I

18     have understood your testimony well?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You understood my testimony fully

20     well, and if I may explain just one thing.  It's correct that there were

21     two kinds of receipts, one booklet was issued to me --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  I issued one to

23     Luka Lalic.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I received one from

25     Jovo Dmitrovic or from Martic, I'm not sure who it was, I believe it was

Page 12985

 1     Jovo Dmitrovic.  And Luka Lalic had nothing to do with this receipt.  He

 2     handed over the money to me in Germany.  He didn't travel to Knin.  I

 3     brought the money and I received another receipt confirming that I handed

 4     the money over.  And the booklet of receipts he had, he issued me one

 5     proving that he gave me the money, and I just transported it.  And then

 6     when I handed over the money, I was given a receipt.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, as far as the receipts number 1 to 47 are

 8     concerned, I think you testified that you have no details about those.

 9     Is there any reason to believe that it has got to do anything with the

10     collection of money in Germany by Mr. Lalic, or would it be donations

11     from who knows where but not necessarily through Mr. Lalic from Germany?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.  As for

13     receipts 1 to 47, there were donations from Novi Sad, from Banja Luka,

14     from various individuals, whoever came to the cash desk of the SUP or of

15     the police station or the SJB in Knin and offered to donate money to the

16     police was issued a receipt such as this one.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, you may proceed.

18             MR. JORDASH:

19        Q.   And do you know how often in this period of time, July, August,

20     around the middle of 1991, that individuals or groups of individuals were

21     making such donations?

22        A.   I know that very often people who were unknown to me came, and

23     then I later heard from the cashier Radovan Vrzina or from Jovo Dmitrovic

24     or from Nikola Rastovic that these people came and donated money.  I

25     didn't inquire about these people but we knew about the fact that money

Page 12986

 1     had come from donations based on the payments made.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Let's have a look --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, since we're moving on to a different

 5     document, the Prosecution would just request that D325 be inventoried

 6     with the Registry.  The Defence is in possession of the actual receipt

 7     and we actually ask that the item be -- remain here with the Registry as

 8     a physical object.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we have a copy uploaded into e-court and the

10     original is here, you say?

11             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour.  I was able to see it on Sunday

12     myself.  It was produced.  So if we could actually have the physical

13     receipt inventoried with the Registry.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, any objection?

15             MR. JORDASH:  No, no objection to that.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then that's on the record, that the copy will be

17     here and will stay with the Registry.

18             Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, the Registry currently don't have

20     the copy in its possession.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but I take it that you then receive it from

22     Mr. Jordash.  If you don't receive it within the next 24 hours, please

23     report to the Chamber.

24             Mr. Jordash, please proceed.

25             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have 1D4921, please.

Page 12987

 1        Q.   Could you just explain how this came into being and in your

 2     possession, please.

 3        A.   This is a document written in my own hand during a hand-over of

 4     these various items, in order that there be avoided any manipulations or

 5     innuendo about the whereabouts of the items concerned, this was the usual

 6     practice of putting it on paper.

 7        Q.   Do you know what the -- let me start that again.

 8             Do you know who received the items and what were the items --

 9     what was going to happen to the items?  What did happen to the items?

10        A.   Those -- or the individuals who were supposed to be given these

11     items, I don't know their names, but the items listed here - flour, lard,

12     wheat, corn, et cetera - were intended for the members of the reserve

13     police force and perhaps even some who were members of the active police

14     force but were in some way in a vulnerable position.  They were needy and

15     had not been paid their full due salaries.

16        Q.   And how do you know that these items were for these personnel?

17        A.   I know that because we discussed it.  We tried to find ways and

18     means to assist these people.  Furthermore, there were some items in this

19     batch which we weren't sure what their life was because the wheat that

20     had been donated had already been infested and needed consumption --

21     needed to be consumed immediately.

22        Q.   Okay.  You say:  "We tried to find ways and means to assist these

23     people."  Who tried to find ways and means?

24        A.   Martic, Babic, Dmitrovic, Zelenbaba.  All of us knew that the

25     situation was very hard and that people were needy.

Page 12988

 1             MR. JORDASH:  May I tender this as an exhibit, please, under

 2     seal.

 3             MR. WEBER:  No objection based on the testimony of the witness.

 4     We also ask that this document remain in The Hague.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, any objection to --

 6             MR. JORDASH:  No objection to it remaining in The Hague.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And, Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be D328, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  D328 is admitted under seal.

10             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have 1D4922, please.

11        Q.   What is this and how did it come into your possession,

12     Mr. Witness?

13        A.   This is a sheet of paper which is in fact a receipt confirming

14     that I gave 3.000 dinars to Martic on the 9th of September, 1990.

15        Q.   Why did you give Martic the money?

16        A.   I gave it to Martic because he needed it.  He didn't have the

17     funds necessary for his basic needs.  In that period of time, Martic had

18     increased expenses because he received individuals coming from far and

19     wide to see him and he had to have the money to serve them with coffee

20     and drinks.  He was renting a flat and had two children but was left

21     without any means because he wasn't receiving any salary.  I came up to

22     him one day and said, Mile, do you have any money?  And he said, I don't.

23     Do you want me to bring you some?  And he said, Well, please do, I'll

24     sign a receipt against it and return it to you.  And that was how I came

25     to give him 3.000 dinars.

Page 12989

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Let's go to the second page of this exhibit,

 2     please.

 3        Q.   And could you just comment on this?  Can you recall this receipt

 4     and the circumstances which gave rise to it?

 5        A.   This receipt is very similar to the one before.  I think that

 6     this took place in Golubic.  Martic was supposed to move somewhere else

 7     together with his staff and had increased expenses for cigarettes, food,

 8     and his personal needs, so I gave him the money.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Can we go to page 3, please.

10        Q.   Could you make the same -- or could you comment, please, on the

11     first entry; the 31st of August, 1990, giving Martic 4.000 dinars.

12             Do you recall this?

13        A.   I recall doing this and I am certain that I handed over all the

14     various sums as recorded here to Martic.

15        Q.   And do you know why Martic was so in need of this money?

16        A.   He needed the money for day-to-day costs which were higher in

17     that period for food, cigarettes, expendable material, fuel.  This

18     because he did not have any clout at the time or power to obtain funds

19     from the treasury of the SUP in Knin or the police station in Knin.

20             At the time of these events, the chief of police and secretary of

21     the station was Slobodan Vujko, who did not have the authority to finance

22     insurgency or to give Martic any money.

23        Q.   Do you know if Martic's financial situation changed in 1991?

24        A.   No.  There were cases such as this one in 1991, but we did not

25     draw up any receipts.  His situation did not change in 1991 for the

Page 12990

 1     better, save for the fact that he was appointed to a higher position and

 2     was never again in a situation where he would be completely penniless, as

 3     it were.

 4        Q.   Are you able to recall any specific cases such as this one in

 5     1991?

 6        A.   Yes.  I remember countless times in 1991 giving Martic not just

 7     money but also cigarettes or anything else he needed.

 8        Q.   Do you know if others other than yourself gave Martic such items

 9     in 1991?

10        A.   Yes.  Quite a few times when I inquired of him if he needed

11     anything and if he had any money, he would tell me, Thank you, I don't

12     need any now, I was given some by such and such a person.  Of course, I

13     can't remember their names now.  It's been a long time.

14             On this particular receipt you can see that I added in my own

15     hand:  plus 1.000 dinars given by Janko Cvjetan from his own pocket.  I

16     can't recall specifically what the circumstances were, but perhaps I

17     spoke to Janko Cvjetan complaining of the hardship and he offered to give

18     some of his money.  And I think that this money was given to Martic at

19     the same time on this same occasion.

20             Likewise, at the bottom of this sheet of paper that I happen to

21     have in my pocket, it's my handwriting, it is written:  plus on the

22     4th of September, 1990, in Restaurant Balkan.  This was an occasion when

23     Martic was hosting a group of visitors and didn't have any money, so I

24     gave him some.  I didn't ask him to sign against the receipt, but he

25     always insisted that I should put it on paper.  Also I didn't want to

Page 12991

 1     have any problems with my wife and my family about the money seeming to

 2     disappear.  I used this receipt more to justify myself before my family

 3     than before anyone else, including this Tribunal.

 4             Also, what is added in -- at the bottom is:  Dragan Batas, in

 5     Strmica, at his own home.  He received 2.000 from me.  After he fell out

 6     with Martic [as interpreted], Dragan Batas became Jovan Raskovic's driver

 7     and he didn't have any money to speak of and he didn't have money to buy

 8     a proper suit, and I did want him to appear a decent man when driving

 9     Raskovic around.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  After he fell out

11     with Milan Babic, not Milan Martic.

12             MR. JORDASH:

13        Q.   And may I ask where you received your money from to give to

14     Martic and others?

15        A.   Just before the war broke out, I was very well off.  I had a

16     flat, a family house, a car, and land.  I sold some of the plots of land.

17     I received a salary, as did my wife and my mom.  We sold off some of the

18     land and most people were aware of this.  My brothers were also rich.  We

19     helped each other out.  They knew we had money.

20        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Now, finally, you say at paragraph 69 of your

21     statement that you've never met Jovica Stanisic or Franko Simatovic but

22     you only know them through the media.  And you say Jovica Stanisic did

23     not have any role in the politics of the Krajina.  Could I just ask you

24     to explain why you decided to give evidence for the Stanisic Defence.

25        A.   I didn't have any specific motives that would have prompted me to

Page 12992

 1     be the Defence witness for Jovica Stanisic or Franko Simatovic.  My main

 2     motive for becoming Mr. Stanisic's witness is to help establish the truth

 3     before this Tribunal.  If this modest knowledge that I have can be of

 4     assistance to the Defence of Mr. Stanisic to clear him of this legacy, as

 5     it were, that was imposed on him and to help the Trial Chamber arrive at

 6     the truth, that is why I'm doing it.  Mr. Stanisic is not a person that I

 7     owe anything to him.  Reading about him, about the events in 1995, and

 8     the effort he put in to have French pilots and other soldiers in

 9     Republika Srpska freed and released prompted me to give this small

10     contribution of mine to clear him of the charges against him.

11             Also I'm the sort of person who feels keenly other people's

12     suffering, and this humanitarian gesture that Mr. Jovica Stanisic made in

13     1995 prompted me to become his witness.

14        Q.   And in relation to Mr. Babic, do you know whether he was a

15     healthy man at the time you knew him, mentally, physically?

16        A.   I'm not a medical expert, but it did seem to me that occasionally

17     he had tremors, especially his leg.  He would often go to the toilet and

18     stay longer in front of the mirror, and from time to time he would take

19     certain pills I wouldn't be able to tell you anything about, since I'm

20     not a physician.  It would also happen that where an arrangement has been

21     made or an agreement reached, he would react in an unexpected manner.

22        Q.   Thank you.  I've got nothing further.  Thank you, Mr. Witness.

23             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Before I give an opportunity to cross-examine the

25     witness, I have one question for you.  You said you want to assist this

Page 12993

 1     Chamber to establish the truth, and at the same time you say you want to

 2     clear Mr. Stanisic from any allegations made against him.  Now, is that

 3     the same for you?  Do you say the truth is that he is not guilty; is that

 4     your position?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Your Honour, this is my

 6     position:  Let every person answer for one's own actions.  I think it

 7     would be ideal if all those who were guilty were -- would be held to

 8     account, because all the criminals in the former Yugoslavia have a name

 9     to their face.  The ordinary citizens, those of us who are merely looking

10     on while you are trying cases here, think along these lines:  Where are

11     those, in which armchairs are they lingering, those who are responsible

12     for the difficult position in which their people are right now?  I don't

13     think that anyone is innocent or guilty until this is established by the

14     competent organs.

15             Yesterday you mentioned, I believe, if I remember that some --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll read part of your answer.  You read about him

17     and about the story with the French pilots and:

18             "This prompted me to give this small contribution of mine to

19     clear him of the charges against him."

20             That sounds as if you expect that your testimony is such that it

21     would clear Mr. Stanisic of the charges brought against him.  Or did I

22     not understand your testimony accurately?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't mean to say that my

24     testimony would clear him of the charges, but I did believe that my

25     contribution, in the form of my testimony, would be to help establish the

Page 12994

 1     facts related to the events during that period in that area.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, I don't know

 4     even now what the indictment says.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You have answered my question.  Thank you.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  May I just deal with some three exhibits, please.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.  Mr. Weber.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I just take this opportunity.  The

 9     Defence hasn't tendered 1D4922 but as of right now we would have an

10     objection as to the reliability and authenticity of it regarding the

11     signatures, so before Mr. Jordash sat down, I just wanted to make that

12     aware to him in case he wanted to address that.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You can include that then, perhaps.  Mr. Weber

14     is anticipating perhaps what you had on your mind.

15             MR. JORDASH:  I was going to tender 1D4922.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And could you tell us anything about

17     reliability and authenticity.  And just to remind me that is --

18             MR. JORDASH:  It's the receipts of money to Martic.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. JORDASH:  And it's the diesel receipt that the witness

21     testified about yesterday or the diesel receipts, the three diesel

22     receipts.  So it's two -- three receipts of money to Martic and

23     Dragan Batas and two gasoline -- sorry, three gasoline receipts.  And

24     finally, a receipt relating to a book and stationery store in Knin.

25             And in our submission the witness has testified at length about

Page 12995

 1     these receipts and if my learned friend wants to cross-examine him on

 2     that issue, that's entirely a matter for him, otherwise we submit the

 3     threshold has clearly been crossed.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, on page 18, lines 4 through 6, I

 6     objected on a very particular basis, the signatures.  I don't know if the

 7     witness has provided any testimony as to whose signatures are on these

 8     documents.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And that is about the receipts, the fuel receipts,

10     or --

11             MR. WEBER:  Correct.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  There's hardly any -- there's a kind of a -- not

13     really a signature.

14             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution would be contesting that these are

15     the signatures of Milan Martic.

16             MR. JORDASH:  This has --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see.  The fuel receipts, I don't think that

18     they were supposed to have been signed by Mr. Martic.  Mr. Martic was not

19     at the fuel station to -- then apparently what you are focusing on,

20     Mr. -- what else do we have?  We have the -- the hand-written -- the

21     9th of September, 3.000 dinar.

22             MR. JORDASH:  That's -- sorry.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the second one is the 17th of August, 1990,

24     10.000 dinar.  And then a series of notes.

25             MR. JORDASH:  -- dated the 31st.

Page 12996

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, dated the 31st of August.  And later, further

 2     down, it's the 4th of September, 1990.  And some of them are without any

 3     signature at all.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  The -- there's three signatures in total.  One for

 5     the -- in relation to who we say is Martic.  9th of September, 1990;

 6     17th of August, 1990; and then the top entry of the third document,

 7     31st of August, 1990, received by and signed by Martic.  And then the

 8     three entries on the 31st -- sorry, the three entries on that third

 9     document relating to Janko Cvjetan, the Balkan Restaurant, and

10     Dragan Batas are not signed.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you contest, Mr. Weber, that the two

12     separate hand-written receipts and the top of the 31st of August, 1990,

13     piece of paper, that is the handwriting, the signature, put there by

14     Mr. Martic?

15             MR. WEBER:  Yes.  It might have been signed for him, but we are

16     asking for testimony to that effect.

17             MR. JORDASH:  I can deal with that briefly.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps it would be better that I give an

19     opportunity to Mr. Jordash to specifically address this issue with the

20     witness and see what comes out.

21             Mr. Jordash.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.  1D4922 page 1, please.

23        Q.   Whose signature is that, Mr. Witness?  Or do you recognise it --

24        A.   I believe that this is Martic's signature.

25        Q.   Were you present or not when it was signed?

Page 12997

 1        A.   Whether he signed it or some of his men signed it, I think he

 2     signed it.  As for whether I was present, I was present when I gave him

 3     the money.  But we didn't write up the receipt at that very moment.  We

 4     might have written it up later on, but I don't remember that.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Can we go to the second page, please.

 6        Q.   Do you recognise any -- either of those signatures?

 7        A.   One of them is my signature.  And as for Martic's signature, I

 8     didn't see it for many years but I assert here that I did give him this

 9     money.  I really don't recall the details about him signing the receipt,

10     but I assert here under full responsibility that I gave him the money.

11             MR. JORDASH:  And the third page, please.

12        Q.   In relation to the 31st of August, 1990, receipt, do you

13     recognise either signature?

14        A.   One of them is my signature and the one on the left I think may

15     not be Martic's.  It's in Latin script.  Maybe I needed to justify at

16     home where the money was.  I told you before, I didn't request that he

17     signed for me.  He insisted on signing.  And underneath what it says,

18     Janko Cvjetan gave the money, this was just a note, nobody signed it.

19        Q.   Let's just stay with the signature a moment.  You said -- you

20     said the one on the left may not be Martic's.  Do you have any idea whose

21     it might be?

22        A.   I don't know.

23        Q.   Do you recall others other than Martic signing such receipts?

24     Who might it have been?

25        A.   For him personally I can't recall.  Nobody signed for him.  But

Page 12998

 1     it could be that it was one of these people or people who were close to

 2     him so that I could justify the absence of the money at home.  And so

 3     that I wouldn't humiliate him to sign for each and every one of them, it

 4     might be that somebody else signed for him.  It might be his signature.

 5     I'm just not sure.  And as far as I know, nobody signed on his behalf.

 6     But I do know, and I'm saying the same thing I said about the previous

 7     receipt, on my honour I claim that I gave him the money and that what it

 8     says here is correct.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do I understand that whereas you positively

10     repeat your testimony that you gave him the money, that for neither of

11     the three possible signatures of Mr. Martic that you can be sure that it

12     was him who signed either on the two separate receipts or on this third

13     note where we find the name of Mr. Martic in Latin script?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not referring to the previous

15     two receipts.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just then interrupt you.  You told us about

17     this note but for the previous two you said you don't remember the

18     details, they were not signed immediately after you gave the money, you

19     do not know the circumstances under which they were signed, which I

20     understood that you are not absolutely certain that the signatures found

21     on the other two, that they are Mr. Martic's signatures.  But if I

22     misunderstood you, please correct me.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have forgotten a long time ago

24     what his signature looks like.  I remember these receipts vaguely.  There

25     were other receipts like this signed by him personally which I intended

Page 12999

 1     to bring here; however, since my weekend house on Cer mountain was

 2     burgled, I lost most newspaper cuttings.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand your answer to be that although

 4     there may be others where you are more certain that they were signed by

 5     Mr. Martic, that for these you do not have a clear recollection on when

 6     and under what circumstances they were signed, and that your recollection

 7     of the -- what Mr. Martic's signature looks like is such that you cannot

 8     positively confirm that this is his signature; is that a correct

 9     understanding of what you just told me?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About the same.  I'm sure that

11     Martic signed receipts, but I'm not sure whether it's this signature.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  On either of the three pieces of paper we've

13     looked at; is that correctly understood?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of the three documents, one is most

15     certainly his signature.  Perhaps two or perhaps three.  One is certainly

16     his.  If you have his signature somewhere, you can compare it and you can

17     see which of the three is his signature.  But I assert under full

18     responsibility that everything that's on these receipts is correct and

19     that I did give him the money.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you said one of the three certainly is his

21     signature.  Now, can you tell us -- can you identify which of the three

22     certainly is his signature?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't be able to identify

24     whether it's this one or the other one.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

Page 13000

 1             Mr. Weber, I think that on the basis of the testimony of the

 2     witness the probative value of the document is not primarily that they

 3     were signed by Mr. Martic but that they are contemporaneous notes, either

 4     with or without the signature of Mr. Martic, which were written in order

 5     to put on paper amounts of money that were given to Mr. Martic at the

 6     dates contained in these pieces of paper.  Any objections?

 7             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, that's understood.  I believe the rest

 8     of the matters would be going to weight, so we withdraw our objection and

 9     to the extent that it relates to the witness's testimony.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Did I also understand that your objections were

11     limited to these three out of the seven pages of - what is it? - P -- no,

12     1D4922?  No problem with the fuel?  They are all in one batch.

13             MR. WEBER:  No, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections from the Simatovic Defence.

15             Madam Registrar, the number to be assigned to document 1D4922

16     would be ...

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Would be D329, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  D329 is admitted under seal, I would say.

19             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, please.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Under seal.

21             MR. JORDASH:  And may I then just request two documents which

22     were part of the chart, 1D2404 and 65 ter 1896, that they be tendered but

23     MFI'd, please.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, two documents known to me now by number,

25     not by their content.  1D2404 is -- Mr. Jordash is --

Page 13001

 1             MR. WEBER:  No objection to 1D2404 being marked for

 2     identification or 1896 being marked for identification.  We are waiting

 3     for additional information on provenance for the Defence exhibit and we

 4     still need to discuss 1896 with the Defence.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, 1D2404 will be marked for

 6     identification under what number?

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Under number D330, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  D330.  65 ter 1869 will be MFI'd under number ...

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  D331, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  D331.

11             Mr. Petrovic, are you ready to -- Mr. Weber.

12             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the Prosecution will also request that

13     D329 stay in The Hague.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

15             MR. JORDASH:  No objection.  The only comment I would make is

16     that if the Prosecution wish to conduct any forensic examination of the

17     notes, that they do so through the Defence.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, or at least I would say forensic

19     examinations are usually best done by experts accepted by both parties.

20             MR. WEBER:  We will of course inform the Defence if we are going

21     to conduct any forensic examinations and then --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you'll inform the Defence that you intend to

23     have the documents examined.  If there's any disagreement about who, how,

24     under what circumstances, where, you may address the Chamber after you

25     have had a cup of tea or a cup of coffee.

Page 13002

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.  We would ask that the same conditions be

 2     applied as they have -- the Prosecution have applied to us with their

 3     exhibits.  We're just asking for parity of treatment.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's -- we can imagine what problems would arise.

 5     The next step could be, let's say, that -- but not in the

 6     Netherlands Forensic Institute or not on the beach in Scheveningen or

 7     only if you take one out of the seven pages; you can spend hours on that.

 8     You agree if one of the parties wishes the document to be examined, they

 9     contact the other party, they try to seek an agreement on how it will be

10     done, by whom it will be done, when it will be done, on the beach, off

11     the beach, wherever.  If you do not agree, you come back to the Chamber

12     and we'll determine the matter on the presentation of the basis of your

13     disagreement.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, you are not among the disagreeing

16     parties yet.  Did you wish to cross-examine the witness?

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's correct.  Yes,

18     I would like to cross-examine the witness.  But I'm also looking at the

19     clock, so I would like to hear your instructions about whether it's more

20     useful to take a break now and then I would continue after the break.  I

21     would follow your instructions.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that would be the best to do, Mr. Petrovic,

23     to take a break first.  Your estimate of the time you would need, you

24     said you would look into the matter again overnight.  What is your

25     present estimate?

Page 13003

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, 45 minutes.  Not more

 2     than 45 minutes.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, you are on your feet where I expected

 6     Mr. Petrovic.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  I'd hope the same.  May I just apologise that we

 8     did not file a summary or didn't read out a summary.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, first of all, you are supposed to

10     present it orally before the witness starts his testimony.  I do

11     understand that it had not been prepared and that as a solution, although

12     a bad solution, that it will be filed, but I expect the Stanisic Defence

13     to improve its performance in this respect after the recess.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Because it's important for the public.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

18                           [Technical difficulty]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, there was a technical problem with the

20     instruments used for the transcription.  I think the last words I spoke

21     was, "but I expect the Stanisic Defence to improve its performance after

22     the recess."  And then I added that it was important for the public.

23             Mr. Petrovic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness DST-043, you are now cross-examined by

Page 13004

 1     Mr. Petrovic.  Mr. Petrovic is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.

 2             You may proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, witness.

 6        A.   Good morning.

 7        Q.   Since we speak the same language, I would like to ask you to

 8     pause between my question and your answer and the other way around.  So

 9     if I'm quiet and I'm not putting the next question to you, it just means

10     that I'm waiting for the interpretation to be recorded on the transcript.

11     I would also like you -- like to ask you to give me brief answers so that

12     we could complete my examination as quickly as possible.  Thank you in

13     advance, witness.

14             My first question relates to your statement, the very beginning

15     of the statement.  There is no need to have it up on the screen.  You

16     talk about the elections in the Republic of Croatia in 1990.  I would

17     like to know whether the Serbian Democratic Party of Professor Raskovic

18     participated in the elections everywhere in Croatia, in all areas in

19     Croatia which were populated by Serbs.

20        A.   Yes.  Wherever Serbs were a majority in the Republic of Croatia,

21     the party took part in the elections.

22        Q.   Were there any areas where Serbs lived but the SDS was not

23     organised and prepared to take part in the elections in 1990 and where

24     they voted for other political parties?

25        A.   Yes.  There were some areas where the SDS did not put forward any

Page 13005

 1     candidates, and it was not prepared to take part in the elections.

 2        Q.   Can you tell us where that was the case, in which areas, and, if

 3     you know, for whom the Serbs mainly voted in those elections in 1990?

 4        A.   I can't tell you.  I don't recall exactly the areas where it

 5     didn't take part in the elections, but where it did take part was Knin,

 6     Benkovac, Obrovac, Korenica, Gornji Lapac, Gracac, Srb, and so on.

 7        Q.   Witness, do you know who General Pekic was?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Can you tell us whether he had a role in these events in

10     late 1990 and early 1991?

11        A.   As far as I know, he did not play a role apart from a large rally

12     that was held in Petrova Gora, but I don't recall the exact date.  Apart

13     from this one rally, he did not play a major role.

14        Q.   Sir, in your statement in paragraph 5 --

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] And could we please have statement

16     D322 up on the screen without being broadcast to the public.

17        Q.   You said that the main focus of the SDS was to fight for the

18     institutionalisation of the position of the Serbs within the

19     Republic of Croatia.  Can you please tell us briefly what this

20     institutionalisation of the position of the Serbs meant as you

21     interpreted this?

22        A.   The institutionalisation of the Serbs as we interpreted it at the

23     time was what I wrote in paragraph 5, namely the political unity for all

24     the Serbs in the Republic of Croatia, wanted to avoid assimilation, and

25     the Serbs to have the right to their language, their culture, their

Page 13006

 1     freedom of expression, their media.

 2        Q.   Sir, in paragraph 7 of your statement you said that

 3     Professor Raskovic did not want the political autonomy of Serbs in

 4     Croatia.  Could you explain to us, if you know, what's the difference

 5     between the political platform of Professor Raskovic and the one

 6     represented by Milan Babic?  If you could describe the difference to us

 7     briefly.

 8        A.   Professor Raskovic demanded cultural autonomy, but he also said

 9     that it all depended on the moves of the Croatian authorities.  We would

10     have a policy of playing one move against another move, as you would in a

11     game of chess.  The Croatian Democratic Union, which won the elections,

12     if they were to exhibit Ustasha-like motives in reviving the past with

13     threats which would create insecurity and pose a threat to the people

14     being erased from the constitution, then we would seek political

15     autonomy, but either way at that time he said publicly that in the end it

16     would be better if there were no Serbs in the Croatian constitution but

17     still have them in Croatia than to have them in the constitution and not

18     have them in Croatia.  And as you know, that was his idea.  And he always

19     said that we have to seek our interests and we have to have our problems

20     resolved in the Republic of Croatia where we live, where the graves of

21     our ancestors are, where we have our estates, where we were born,

22     et cetera.

23        Q.   Witness, you described the political platform of

24     Professor Raskovic.  My question related to the difference between

25     Raskovic's platform and that of Milan Babic.  If there was a difference,

Page 13007

 1     could you please explain it to us?

 2        A.   In the beginning, the concept was the same.  However, as time

 3     passed after the first multi-party elections, the passion for power that

 4     Mr. Babic began to exhibit turned into a dangerous game, a dangerous game

 5     without an end, and what was it all about?  Professor Raskovic wasn't

 6     interested in power; he wanted to serve his people, which was in direct

 7     opposition to Mr. Babic.  Mr. Raskovic and all his intellectual abilities

 8     which were above average, he put all of this at the service of the

 9     people, while Mr. Babic put all his facilities into obtaining power.

10     Mr. Babic was a lot more radical and he had surprising moves that

11     surprised even Mr. Raskovic because they were contrary to his views.

12        Q.   Mr. Witness, you say Babic's moves were more radical.  Can you

13     tell us exactly how his radical stance manifested itself?

14        A.   It manifested itself through his day-to-day statements and

15     interviews, through the fact that he proclaimed that everything that was

16     Croatian was Ustasha-like, through the creation of new institutions which

17     did not bring anything positive to the people in that area; rather, the

18     ulterior motive was personal promotion and advancement.

19        Q.   Thank you, witness.  In paragraph 13 you say that, among other

20     things, Babic was elected the president of the associated municipalities

21     of Northern Dalmatia.  Can you tell us who was behind the initiative to

22     set up this association?

23        A.   Well, it was the result of a joint agreement really, unaware of

24     the fact that the creation of this association of municipalities and its

25     bodies would actually produce the opposite effect.  Mr. Babic became

Page 13008

 1     president of the associated municipalities of Northern Dalmatia and

 2     Lika on the 26th of June, 1990.  Together with his team, Risto Matkovic

 3     and others, his close associates, he participated in the creation and

 4     setting up of the various bodies of the association of the

 5     municipalities.

 6        Q.   Witness, in paragraph 14 you speak of the establishment of yet

 7     another Serbian body, namely the Serbian National Council.  Why was it

 8     that after the association of municipalities was set up another body was

 9     created which related to the same people, to the same area, and had a

10     similar purpose?

11        A.   Just as I said a moment ago, Professor Raskovic told to

12     Mr. Tudjman that they would respond to a move with another move just like

13     in a game of chess.  By that point, the Republic of Croatia has indicated

14     clearly that -- its intention to settle scores with the Serb people and

15     posed a threat to them.  The Serb people, fearful of the situation

16     because of the difficult past experience, sought to protect themselves.

17     And the only project where the late Professor Raskovic did not take part

18     was the creation on the 25th of July of that particular council in Srb.

19     And it was in fact a fait accompli that the Serbian National Council was

20     set up, and it was only natural that Milan Babic would be elected its

21     president.

22             Let me note that before the 25th of July Professor Raskovic

23     endured terrible -- a terrible humiliation.  I stayed behind in Srb to

24     wait for him and he went to Zagreb for a 25-minute meeting with

25     President Franjo Tudjman, who presented him with that notorious phonogram

Page 13009

 1     and tried to compromise him.

 2        Q.   Thank you, witness.  There was a great deal of discussion

 3     yesterday about the arming of the reserve police force and so on.  I'm

 4     putting to you a general question.  Do you recall in the SFRY in general

 5     terms before the outbreak of hostilities if the police stations did have

 6     weapons in stock for their reserve force?  And if so, do you know where

 7     the weapons were stored?

 8        A.   Yes.  Police stations did have their armaments which were kept,

 9     as far as I know, in storage facilities that were part of -- part of the

10     police station compound.

11        Q.   Mr. Witness, what sort of weapons were these?  Long-barrelled,

12     short-barrelled, automatic, semi-automatic, if you know?

13        A.   These were short-barrelled, automatic, and semi-automatic

14     weapons, including ammunition of course.  These were rifles, pistols,

15     semi-automatic rifles, automatic rifles, and I think they were -- or,

16     rather, I do know that this is the sort of weapons that they had.

17        Q.   Witness, sir, in August of 1990, the Croatian police and Croatian

18     forces tried in these municipalities of Knin, Benkovac, and Obrovac to

19     take out the weapons belonging to the reserve police force from the

20     warehouses where they were kept; is that right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And is it also not true that in this attempt to -- that in fact

23     it was a failed attempt on their part to take the weapons kept in these

24     reserve police warehouses; is that true?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 13010

 1        Q.   Therefore, the weapons belonging to the reserve police force in

 2     the municipalities of Northern Dalmatia remained in the locations where

 3     they always were, namely the warehouses belonging to police stations;

 4     right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Witness, in paragraph 19 of your statement you say that

 7     barricades were erected along the roads in Northern Dalmatia, and we're

 8     talking about the August of 1990.  This is my question:  Do you know if

 9     the population had been mobilised to man these barricades or did they

10     come to be there in some other way?

11        A.   Once a state of war was declared, and in view of the fact that

12     there was a daily threat from an imminent raid by the Croatian police

13     forces, people spontaneously erected these barricades.  I'm convinced

14     that the barricades were not the result of an organised action.

15        Q.   Witness, you did mention it before but I'd like to clarify one

16     issue.  Do you know if in Knin and the general surroundings there was a

17     unit of the Yugoslav People's Army deployed?

18        A.   Yes, Knin was a large centre of the Yugoslav People's Army.

19        Q.   Can you tell us, if you know, which units were deployed in and

20     around Knin and, if you know, how many barracks were there in the town

21     and in its immediate surroundings?

22        A.   In the town of Knin and its immediate surroundings, there were

23     large barracks.  There was a command post in town, there was Slavko Rodic

24     barracks, there was Juzni Logor barracks, as well as forward posts,

25     because the -- a call was stationed there.  They had their forward

Page 13011

 1     command posts in Dosnica, which in fact is near Golubic, so you might say

 2     that it was also called Golubic, although we referred to it as Dosnica.

 3     They had their post in Strmica, Trbonj [phoen].  Benkovac came under the

 4     Knin corps as well.  And they had a number of military installations,

 5     other military installations.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel turn his microphone on.

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Do you know if the Knin Corps had its warehouses, weapons, and

 9     materiel and technical equipment?  And if so, where were these warehouses

10     located?

11        A.   I do know that they had their warehouses holding materiel and

12     technical equipment in the -- within the perimeter of the barracks.  They

13     had huge warehouses in Dosnica as well as huge warehouses in Trbonj, near

14     Benkovac.  So they had a number of warehouses for materiel and technical

15     equipment.

16        Q.   Witness, you mentioned the warehouse in Dosnica.  It's also

17     referred to as Golubic, is it not, because it's close to Golubic; right?

18        A.   Yes, it's some 4 to 5 kilometres away from Golubic, because

19     Golubic is the sort of location that stretches across several kilometres,

20     and from the edge of Golubic you could say that it is 4 to 5 kilometres

21     to Dosnica.

22        Q.   You said that there was a huge warehouse in Dosnica.  Can you

23     tell us, what did you mean precisely by that?

24        A.   In the former system, this warehouse was housing reserves of

25     materiel and technical equipment, assets, and weapons for the needs of

Page 13012

 1     the entire general area.  When I say huge, I mean to say that it held

 2     mortars, shells, rockets, rifles, machine-guns.  It was planned to house

 3     assets for the entire Dalmatia, as I said.

 4        Q.   Can you give us an approximation of the quantity?  Was it

 5     measurable in tonnes, dozens of tonnes?  Can you give us some sort of an

 6     idea?

 7        A.   I think you could measure it in thousands of tonnes rather than

 8     tens of tonnes.  It was a huge underground storage facility located deep

 9     inside a hill.  I myself never went there, but I was told about it by

10     individuals.  Access was not allowed to civilians.  This was off limits

11     to them.  And only those who were working for the JNA were able to gain

12     access to it.

13        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you know if the weapons of the

14     Territorial Defence were also housed in that warehouse or one of the

15     warehouses you mentioned?

16        A.   I don't know but I believe that the weapons of the

17     Territorial Defence were not housed in these warehouses.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, may I take it that you considered the

19     size and the dimension of the storage relevant because it may have

20     included TO equipment as well; is that how I have to understand your line

21     of questioning?

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  I'm interested

23     in knowing the quantity of weapons present in the Knin area and their

24     whereabouts.  And in passing I just wanted to ask if the TO weapons were

25     stored there as well, but it's not central to my questioning.

Page 13013

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And then the storage of JNA weapons in general,

 2     what's the relevance of that?

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my understanding is

 4     that one of the counts of the indictment against my client is the arming

 5     of the general area.  Therefore, I want to demonstrate what the quantity

 6     of weapons present in the area was.  That's the purpose behind my

 7     questioning.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, if I understand matters well, then the central

 9     issue therefore is whether the weapons available, whether they were used,

10     or whether the Prosecution is right in claiming that weapons were brought

11     from somewhere else and that -- so therefore the first and the -- I would

12     say the most important question is how these weapons stored were used or

13     made available to relevant parties, isn't it?

14             If you start with that question, then we either get a

15     confirmation that they were delivered or distributed or whatever way.

16     And then, of course, it's important to know the details.  I do not know

17     what the answer of the witness would be and whether he has any knowledge

18     about it because that is, I would say, decisive for the relevance of

19     going into the details.  What was there, where it was, et cetera, and

20     that becomes relevant once you have put some other questions to the

21     witness, which, I would say, are the -- as far as I can see, are the most

22     important ones at the moment.

23             Could you please come to the point as soon as possible.

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I will.  Thank you, Your Honour.

25     I put the question in the context of not only this witness's testimony,

Page 13014

 1     but in the context of the testimony of the witnesses to come.  And that

 2     then may be helpful to the Chamber.  But I will not be dwelling on this

 3     point because the witness did make a couple of statements on this issue,

 4     so I will move on.

 5             Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Mr. Witness, in your statement in paragraph 20 you say that Babic

 7     informed people in general on the 17th of August that a state of war had

 8     been declared.  You go on to say that the weapons were taken to Golubic

 9     and taken by those who needed them.  Do you know why Golubic was the

10     place to go to on the 17th of August, 1990?

11        A.   On the 17th of August, 1990, the intention was to have people go

12     because there were stories circulating that people had set off from

13     Gracac, that people had set off from Drnis.  And since everybody was

14     panic-stricken, it was impossible to distribute weapons in the centre of

15     town.  My understanding was that this was the reason why Golubic was

16     chosen, as an isolated area, a youth resort which had not been under

17     anybody's control, and most importantly to have some control over the

18     distribution of weapons.

19        Q.   Witness, do you know who Dragan Karna is?

20        A.   Yes.  Dragan Karna is a former inspector who used to work in

21     Sinj.  Following the impending clashes in Croatia, he left Sinj and with

22     his family moved to Knin.  And otherwise he does hail from the area.

23        Q.   Witness, do you know if Dragan Karna was engaged in a unit at

24     that time in 1990 in the territory of Knin?

25        A.   Yes.  I don't remember the exact date but a so-called

Page 13015

 1     Special Police Unit was formed and Dragan Karna became its commander.

 2        Q.   Witness, you don't recall the date, but can you tell us the year

 3     or the time of year when the unit was formed?

 4        A.   I think that this unit was formed either in December or possibly

 5     in January, but it was around that time.  It was in that two-month

 6     period.

 7        Q.   Witness, of what year?

 8        A.   1990, 1991.

 9        Q.   Witness, please tell us who composed this unit that was commanded

10     by Dragan Karna.

11        A.   The unit was composed of local people, either from the active or

12     the reserve force, but those who had the best mental and physical

13     abilities, those who were the most capable.

14        Q.   Witness, where was this unit accommodated?  Where was it based?

15        A.   When it didn't go to the field, this unit carried out tasks in

16     the Knin SUP, but otherwise the unit was accommodated in Golubic.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us how many members were there in

18     Dragan Karna's special unit?

19        A.   Dragan Karna's Special Police Unit, I can't be precise about the

20     number but I think there were between one to two platoons, meaning

21     between 30 to 60 people.

22        Q.   And one more thing:  When you say in Golubic, which facilities

23     are you referring to?

24        A.   I'm referring to the same facilities that we discussed before

25     that were being renovated, the school centre in Golubic.

Page 13016

 1        Q.   Thank you, witness.

 2             In paragraph 37 of your statement, you spoke about the quarrel

 3     between Captain Dragan and Milan Babic about hoisting the flag on the

 4     Knin fortress.  You said that this was on the 2nd of August, 1991.  Can

 5     you tell us how you remember the date?

 6        A.   It's a big religious holiday which is marked in the area.  It's

 7     the day of St. Ilija.  Milan Babic sent one of his followers,

 8     Djoko Majstorovic, to hoist the flag of the Territorial Defence on the

 9     fortress.  We heard that Captain Dragan prevented it from happening and

10     that after this there were some big quarrels between Milan Babic and

11     Captain Dragan.  I'm deeply convinced that this quarrel was in the making

12     a long time before, because the hoisting of the flag itself was just

13     there in order to provoke a quarrel.

14        Q.   After the quarrel of 2nd of August, what happened to

15     Captain Dragan?

16        A.   After that quarrel, Captain Dragan left Knin and the Krajina and

17     as far as I knew he went to Belgrade.  However - and it's very important

18     to mention this - two or three days before or two or three days after,

19     Mr. Babic staged an assassination attempt on his life which of course

20     didn't happen.  Branko Mirkovic who was at his house at the time said

21     that his best man --

22        Q.   Witness, we heard that yesterday.  Thank you, it's in your

23     statement.

24             Tell us briefly, if you know, which flag did this man want to

25     hoist on the fortress and what flag was there before?  Which flag did he

Page 13017

 1     want to remove and which flag did he want to put up?

 2        A.   Before then I believe it was the regular Serbian flag.  And

 3     believe me that the flag of the Territorial Defence, I never saw it

 4     myself so I can't really describe to you what it looks like.

 5        Q.   Thank you, witness.  And finally, the next arrival of

 6     Captain Dragan in Krajina is connected to 1993 and Bruska?

 7        A.   Yes.  As far as I recall, there was an attack on the Zadar

 8     hinterland at the time.  The attack happened on the

 9     21st of February, 1993, and I personally met with Martic at the time, who

10     told me that Captain Dragan had arrived.  I wanted to cancel hospitality

11     but I felt sorry for him, he came with three or four people.  I'm not

12     sure whether he can help me, but I felt uncomfortable telling him to go.

13     And when Dragan came in 1993, he set up another camp in Bruska that I

14     never visited.  And he also set up a unit.

15        Q.   Very well, witness.  Please tell us whether you know who

16     Dusan Bandic is.

17        A.   Personally I don't know, but I read in the papers that

18     Dusan Bandic, Dusan Saric, a man called Stefanovic, Zeljko Raznjatovic,

19     Arkan, were arrested in Dvor Na Uni in November of 1990.

20        Q.   Witness, do you know Mr. Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, had any

21     contacts with Milan Babic in that time-period that you're talking about

22     in late 1990?

23        A.   I don't know personally.  But Nebojsa Mandinic told me that they

24     met, that is, Milan Babic and Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, I guess in

25     (redacted)

Page 13018

 1     think he was here, I think Milan Babic was here with some men and that

 2     Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, was among them.

 3             As for whether that is true, I don't know, but I believe my

 4     brother.

 5        Q.   Witness, I would like to show you a document.  It's 2D535.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have it on the

 7     screen.  I would like the witness to look at paragraph 1 of the document.

 8     Could we zoom in so the witness could read it, please.

 9        Q.   Please look at the first paragraph.  Read it and then I'll ask

10     you a question.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Witness, does what is in the first paragraph correspond more or

13     less to what you know about Arkan?

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

17     tender this Defence exhibit.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

19             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I know the Simatovic Defence is in the

20     course of trying to acquire original documents.  I do not know if this is

21     one of them.  We would just ask that it remain marked for identification

22     until the original is received.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] We agree with that, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, you apparently are silent on the

25     matter.

Page 13019

 1             Madam Registrar, the MFI number would be ...

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Number D332, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  D332 is marked for identification.

 4             Please proceed.

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 13020

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I also notice that you've taken approximately your

 8     45 minutes, but if you need a few more minutes, please proceed.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I'll be

12     done within three minutes.

13        Q.   Witness, yesterday you mentioned Babic's constant attempts to

14     form some kind of an army of his own.  I would like you to look at a

15     document, P1999.  Paragraph 1 of the document.  Please tell us whether

16     you know anything about the event described in this document.

17        A.   I don't know anything about this document.  I don't know anything

18     about the document as such.

19        Q.   Witness, I'm asking you about the event.  Do you know anything

20     about the event?

21        A.   Yes, I do know about the event.

22        Q.   Do you know the event that is described here?

23        A.   Yes, I know about that event.  On that occasion an army was

24     formed, without an army.  I would say that this was one of the political

25     magician tricks, and I believe Rade Cubrilo was appointed commander of

Page 13021

 1     the army.  Petar Mirkonjic was in charge of the regiment.  Rajko Ilic was

 2     in charge of logistics, and so on.  This was one of those desperate

 3     attempts that lasted throughout the war in Krajina.  It was a desperate

 4     attempt to seize the army, the police, civilian authorities, and it was

 5     completely out of place.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I have

 8     no further questions.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

10             Mr. Weber, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

11             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour.  Just one housekeeping matter.  The

12     Prosecution was just checking and D332 that was just marked for

13     identification which came from a published book from the Croatian

14     authorities, we were just comparing it to D98 which appears to be already

15     an exhibit, and we believe that these may be the same documents.  If

16     Mr. Petrovic wishes to check.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, if you would please check that.  And

18     if it is -- if Mr. Weber is right, perhaps the MFI number could be

19     vacated soon.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, could we please move into private

23     session.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

25                           [Private session]

Page 13022











11 Pages 13022-13055 redacted. Private session.















Page 13056

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day of

 7                           July, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.