Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13729

 1                           Thursday, 1 September 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  It seems that there is

10     a microphone open close to where some noise is produced by typing.  Now

11     it's better.

12             Before we continue:  Mr. Jordash - and I should address

13     Mr. Bakrac as well - when do you expect to receive the guarantees from

14     the Serbian government in relation to provisional release?

15             MR. JORDASH:  Actually, I don't know that answer.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because that's always part of our decision.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  So if we want to consider that, which is not in any

19     way anticipating on whether we will grant or deny, but that's, of course,

20     usually if you offer guarantees, they should be there for us to consider.

21             MR. JORDASH:  I'll have that checked and hopefully give you an

22     answer today.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             Mr. Bakrac, same question to you.

25             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise for

Page 13730

 1     interrupting you.  Maybe I can assist.  I tried to find out yesterday,

 2     and I believe the chances are that the guarantees would be decided on

 3     today.  It is not a hundred per cent certain thing, but I was told that

 4     it would be presented to the government today and that they would reach a

 5     decision today as well.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  So hopefully we have this information tomorrow.

 7     And, again, I emphasize that this question is a matter of routine and is

 8     not in any way to be understood as in anticipation of a decision in one

 9     direction or another.

10             Yes.  Could I further ask an update in relation to

11     Witness DST-040.  There's an application by the Prosecution to postpone

12     cross-examination.  There were a few matters, and I think the -- if I

13     could say, the continuous development of lists of documents and comments

14     is of great concern to the Prosecution, the list changing and the

15     comments changing on a daily basis.  The number increasing considerably.

16     That's at least what the Chamber has understood from an informal e-mail

17     exchange to which -- of which the Chamber was copied.  That's one issue.

18             The other one was the recently received RFA material where

19     Mr. Jordash yesterday told us that the bulk of it or at least the major

20     part of it was about the Djindjic case, from what I understand, and you

21     considered it of little or no relevance for the present case.  I

22     suggested that you would exchange views on that and to further identify

23     that.  I would like you to give a brief update to the Chamber so that we

24     can further develop our thoughts on the matter.

25             MR. JORDASH: [Microphone not activated] We've had time to reflect


Page 13731

 1     on a number of issues overnight --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  There seems to be -- your microphone, at least the

 3     light is on but I do not hear you on channel 4.  Could you test it again,

 4     Mr. Jordash.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  We've had ...

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  It seems to be fine now.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  We've had time to reflect overnight on a number of

 8     issues relating to this witness, and unfortunately we also have to apply

 9     to adjourn the witness, and I'll outline how we've arrived at this view.

10             Firstly, in relation to this witness, Your Honours will know who

11     he is and the role - it is accepted by Prosecution and Defence - that he

12     played, perhaps "role" is the wrong word, but function.  I understand

13     we're in an open session.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MR. JORDASH:  Perhaps we could --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We are in open session.  We could turn into private

17     session if that's what you are asking for.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 13732











11 Pages 13732-13747 redacted. Private session.
















Page 13748

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15      [Closed session]    [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 13749

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Witness DST-063.  First of all, our

12     apologies for the late start.  We had to deal with a few procedural

13     matters, and unfortunately you had to wait.  I would also like to remind

14     you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you have given at

15     the beginning of your testimony, that is, that you will speak the truth,

16     the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17             Ms. Marcus will now continue her cross-examination.

18                           WITNESS: DST-063 [Resumed]

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20                           Cross-examination by Ms. Marcus: [Continued]

21        Q.   Good afternoon, DST-063.

22        A.   Good afternoon to you, too.

23        Q.   Yesterday when we adjourned we were discussing your retroactive

24     false reassignment signed by Jovica Stanisic to Kosovo from August to

25     December 1991.  I have just one or two follow-up questions on that topic

Page 13750

 1     for you.

 2             At transcript page 13718, you said, in response to

 3     His Honour Judge Orie's question, you said:

 4             "I know that I was supposed to get some finances that would cover

 5     per diems and separated life and that there was no modus that could be

 6     found to take care of it."

 7             Now, when we asked you to explain this, you said this was a

 8     justification.

 9             Isn't it true that at that time, in the second half of 1991,

10     Kosovo was a part of Serbia but Eastern Slavonia was not?

11        A.   Yes, that's right.

12        Q.   So a document which would change where you actually were, which

13     was outside Serbia, to a location inside Serbia where your expenses would

14     have been justified, is that how you view this document?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  This is a very ambiguous question, Ms. Marcus.

16     Would you please be more clear.

17             MS. MARCUS:  I will do my best, Your Honour.

18        Q.   Do we understand you correctly that, in your understanding, this

19     document would have changed where you actually were operating, which was

20     outside Serbia, to a place which would have been justified, inside

21     Serbia?  Is that how we understand this document?

22        A.   I am not sure I've fully understood your question.  As a member

23     of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia, we're talking

24     1991, the country was still whole.  My deployment to any of the other

25     republics, I don't know what sort of status that would give me in respect

Page 13751

 1     of the ministry in Serbia.  But I did say yesterday that I viewed this as

 2     merely an administrative document, as paperwork to resolve some of my

 3     entitlements.  I said that they could have deployed me to Nis, Nis was

 4     part of the Republic of Serbia, and the effect would have been the same

 5     as in this instance where I am deployed to Kosovo.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You've explained that yesterday very clearly.

 7             Could I ask a few very focussed questions.

 8             As a member of the Serbian DB, could you be operationally active

 9     in any of the other republics - Croatia, Bosnia, wherever - without the

10     consent of that republic?  To be more precise: Could you be operationally

11     active in Croatia without the approval of the Croatian authorities, as

12     matters stood in 1991?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't give you an answer based on

14     certainty, but I don't think that it would have been possible.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, then, the next question is: Have you ever

16     considered the possibility that apart from the financial arrangements,

17     that this document also would make invisible that you were operationally

18     active outside of Serbia; whereas, you said you think that you could not

19     have been operationally active there and that that would more or less

20     hide a place of operational activity which was not within the legal

21     structure.  My question is whether you have ever considered that

22     possibility.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This possibility never crossed my

24     mind, simply for the reason that it would have been impossible to hide my

25     deployment.  I was there under my full name, and having been sent by my

Page 13752

 1     employer, the matter was simply impossible to conceal.  That's why I

 2     never thought about it that way.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  But would you agree with me that on the

 4     administrative level it would at least not reveal that you were there,

 5     this document?  That you were in Croatia.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Administratively, yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 8             Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.

 9             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Feel free to -- I don't know whether I touched upon

11     more or less the subject you were approaching as well.

12             MS. MARCUS:  That was, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  But feel free to further explore the matter if you

14     wish to do so.

15             MS. MARCUS:  I just have perhaps one more question.

16        Q.   If the point was to justify paying you, let's say, a higher

17     amount than you would have been eligible for had you been deployed very

18     near, could the document not have said "Knin," for example?  You were

19     deployed to Knin.  That's far.  Why couldn't the document have said that

20     you were deployed to Knin?

21        A.   Well, as far as I know, Knin is in Croatia.

22        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

23             Now, yesterday, during your testimony, at page 13654, you stated:

24             "I was just an operative.  You must understand that."

25             At page 13694, you stated:

Page 13753

 1             "You must understand that I was an operative, and that is the

 2     lowest level within my service at the time."

 3             Then on this same topic, at page 13712, you stated:

 4             "My level of awareness at the time is very modest ... I had very

 5     clear tasks ..."

 6             Now, the way you have explained your lack of information about

 7     very serious events going on around you is that you were at the lowest

 8     level of the DB service, you had circumscribed tasks, and your interests

 9     were not in the areas that I asked you about.

10             I would like to ask you some questions about some other documents

11     contained in your Serbian DB personnel file.

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 13754











11 Pages 13754-13759 redacted. Closed session.
















Page 13760

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14        Q.   Did you attend the Kula award ceremony in 1997?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   I'm going to show you a still taken from the video that was taken

17     at that award ceremony.

18             MS. MARCUS:  The video of the ceremony is admitted in this case

19     as P61.

20        Q.   And I'm going to show you a picture from that video.

21             MS. MARCUS:  Could the Court Officer please call up 65 ter 6260.

22     For the record, this is taken from minute 23 and 12 seconds of P61.

23                           [Videotape played]

24             MS. MARCUS:

25        Q.   There are two people depicted in this photo.  One is clearly

Page 13761

 1     Franko Simatovic.  Can you tell us who the other one is?

 2        A.   Yes.  That's my chief, Milovan Popivoda.

 3             MS. MARCUS:  Could I tender this into evidence, please.  I think

 4     it can be public.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             Madam Registrar, in the absence of any objections, the number

 7     would be ...

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be P3016, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  P3016 is admitted into evidence.  It's a public

10     exhibit.

11             MS. MARCUS:  I have to correct the record.  I've given the wrong

12     time-code.  I apologise for that.  This is taken from minute 37 and

13     17 seconds.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  That's hereby on the record.

15             Please proceed.

16             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17             Could I have 65 ter 6251 on the screen, please.  Page 2 in both

18     English and B/C/S.

19        Q.   Now, DST-063, you told us that you took part in the negotiations

20     for the Erdut Agreement in 1995.  What you're going to see is an article

21     from the Croatian newspaper "Vjesnik" from October 1995 regarding these

22     international negotiations for the Erdut Agreement.  This article states

23     that among the representatives of the Serbs at the meeting were

24     Milan Milanovic, Slavko Dokmanovic, Zlatko Modlek, Milan Lakic,

25     Ilija Kojic, Dusan Loncar, and Goran Hadzic.  The meeting took place in

Page 13762

 1     the Erdut Castle, and Stoltenberg and Galbraith were mediating.

 2             My question to you is: The people I have listed from this article

 3     are in fact all -- or, let's say, were in fact all representatives of the

 4     Serbs in the SBWS; is that correct?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Then perhaps you can tell me who they were.

 7        A.   Milan Lakic, that's me.

 8        Q.   So you were using an alias name while you were attending

 9     international negotiations for the Erdut Agreement?

10        A.   One can describe it in such a way, but only to a degree.

11        Q.   Who were you trying to deceive?

12        A.   I wasn't trying to deceive anyone.  That was just for the

13     announcement of negotiations with the Croatian delegation.  Up until that

14     point, I was using my own name.  Or, rather, nobody actually asked me

15     what my name was.

16        Q.   Why could you not just say who you were?

17        A.   It was a professional task.  And I don't see why under such

18     conditions and in such a situation as part of my intelligence duties I

19     would present myself under my own name.  That's not strange, and it

20     wasn't for the first time that I've done something like that.

21        Q.   Can you tell us what other names you have used and under what

22     circumstances.

23        A.   Never again, but what I'm saying is that it was usual practice of

24     activities of all services.  I wasn't really talking about myself.

25        Q.   So here you are, a Serbian DB operative, using an alias, holding

Page 13763

 1     yourself out as a representative of the Serbs in SBWS in an international

 2     negotiation for the Erdut Agreement.  Do I have that right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Isn't it a fact, sir, that you were there to instruct

 5     Goran Hadzic and others in what position to take?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Why were you there?

 8        A.   I don't know whether I have enough time, whether you allow me to

 9     explain it.  I entered the whole story upon a suggestion by

10     Milan Milanovic, aka Mrgud.  Since I was interested in the contents of

11     the discussions, not only the ones that I was about to attend but the

12     previous ones as well, Milanovic introduced me like as if I was his

13     associate.  So my exclusive task was to take notes about the discussions.

14     I did not speak.  I did not take the floor on any occasion during the

15     meetings.

16        Q.   Just earlier today you said: "I was there under my full name."

17             You were not being truthful when you said you were using your own

18     name; isn't that right?

19        A.   I would not agree with you there.  I did explain as of which

20     moment it was.  This is just a position that you're expressing.

21        Q.   Why did you say you were using your full name and your presence

22     couldn't be concealed if you actually used an alias name at international

23     negotiations?

24        A.   Yesterday we were talking about 1991, and during that period I

25     was using my real name.  Now, this, this is a police gesture, an


Page 13764

 1     operative gesture, something that any service would do.  Even from this

 2     point in time I cannot see anything wrong with it.

 3        Q.   You didn't think it would be important to inform the Chamber that

 4     you were also acting under an alias name, Milan Lakic, so that they could

 5     know that that person was you?

 6        A.   I only showed how honest I am by giving answers to all of your

 7     questions.  I did that knowing that you have all information about me.

 8     There is nothing to hide.  I could have told you, "No, I'm not this Lakic

 9     person," but, of course, I don't have a reason to lie.

10             MS. MARCUS:  No further questions, Your Honour.

11             I would say -- sorry, that I have a submission to be made in

12     relation to the witness, but it can be made after the witness is done and

13     it doesn't require the witness to be on stand-by.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll hear from you after we've heard the

15     totality of the witness's testimony.

16             I think, Mr. Bakrac, that's it's your turn now again.

17             MR. BAKRAC: [No interpretation]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness DST-063, you will now be further

19     cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac.

20             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, I have about five to ten minutes, only two

23     topics.

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 13765











11 Page 13765 redacted. Closed session.















Page 13766

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25        Q.   And my last question, sir:  My colleague Ms. Marcus asked you

Page 13767

 1     whether you could have turned down a task that was issued to you by your

 2     superior.  According to the rules of the service, what kind of assignment

 3     or order you could have turned down?

 4        A.   Well, in essence, if that would entail committing a crime; in

 5     other words, if my activities would result in a crime.

 6        Q.   In other words, any other assignment that would not result in a

 7     crime, you were duty-bound to carry out?

 8        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, those were all the

11     questions I had.  And thank you for the time given me.

12             Thank you, witness.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

14             Mr. Jordash, any further questions for the witness?

15             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, please.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed.

17             MR. JORDASH: [Microphone not activated]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The ADC should provide for basic training in

19     electrical equipment.  It looks as if it now functions, Mr. Jordash.

20             MR. JORDASH: [Microphone not activated] Before I begin, may I

21     just address you briefly --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  It --

23             Another test, please.

24             MR. JORDASH: [Microphone not activated] Before I begin,

25     briefly --


Page 13768

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The problem seems to be there where you are now

 2     moving something.

 3             MR. JORDASH: [Microphone not activated] I can see a problem.

 4     It's because it's so low.  If I could just have a moment.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The other microphone did function earlier.  Let's

 6     try it again.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Hello?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  It might work, although we get a bit of -- well,

 9     we -- I think we can hear you now, but we hear other things as well.

10             You don't even -- does it work for you?  No, it doesn't work.

11             We have another lectern which is not as transparent as yours but

12     which might serve you better.

13             Mr. Jordash, don't worry, even if it's the Prosecution lectern,

14     the Prosecution microphone will still hear your words.

15             MR. JORDASH:  Hello?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it works.

17             MR. JORDASH:  I'm hoping there's no subterfuge, though.

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 13769











11 Pages 13769-13774 redacted. Closed session.
















Page 13775

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10             Now, can we turn, please, to 1D05056, which is a full informal

11     translation of these articles.

12        Q.   First of all, Mr. Witness, as this is coming up, the Law on

13     Internal Affairs of Serbia, do you know if it applied -- it might sound

14     like an obvious question, but do you know if it applied to Croatia or

15     Eastern Slavonia, where you were working, at the time you were working in

16     1991 onwards?

17        A.   I don't believe that it did.

18        Q.   And do you know if it applied to Kosovo?

19        A.   The Law of the Republic of Serbia?  Yes, it did.

20        Q.   And we can see there on the screen -- hopefully, I think we need

21     to go to the bottom of the page.  And perhaps I can try to refresh your

22     memory of this article.  Article 47, which goes on to the next page, but

23     says:

24             "Due to special working conditions, intensify in nature --"

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus.

Page 13776

 1             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, is Defence counsel trying to refresh the

 2     witness's memory or educate him?  Because the witness said he didn't know

 3     anything about this.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I'm -- yes, I'm asking him to see if it

 6     refreshes his memory on the articles.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let me then --

 8             First of all, do you have any recollection that you ever studied

 9     articles of this kind?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think so.  I don't

11     remember.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Which could mean, Mr. Jordash, that we are

13     entering in a legal debate with someone who says he has no knowledge

14     about these things.  The legal debate might be very interesting, but if

15     we need the witness for that is ... if you would give us any good reason

16     why to go through all this with the witness?  Is there any specific

17     matters apart from the analysis and the -- of these articles, but the

18     witness says: I don't think I ever read those articles.

19             Now, so therefore if you want to bring them to our attention I

20     think there would be nothing wrong with that because it may further

21     clarify the decision, but perhaps we could do that by reading it.  If you

22     think that the witness, apart from the text of these legal provisions,

23     could provide us with any further information which we, then, could link

24     to these articles, then I think it would be appropriate to ask him such

25     questions --

Page 13777

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  -- rather than to ask him whether he now remembers

 3     the text of these articles.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Certainly.  May I, though, tender this, because the

 5     Law on the Ministries has been tendered as an exhibit but only in summary

 6     form.  These articles have been summarised.  So this is the full text of

 7     these articles.  So if I may tender this as an exhibit.  MFI'd, if the

 8     Prosecution would like a -- obviously would like a formal translation.

 9             MS. MARCUS:  Can we hear what the relevance is to this witness's

10     testimony?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps then the witness should take off his

12     earphones.  But the relevance certainly is that these articles, these

13     legal provisions, are apparently at the basis of the decision you have

14     sought to be admitted into evidence --

15             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, the witness has his headphones still on.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but that's a kind of relevance without any

17     factual basis.  If you would have answered the question, I might have,

18     out of an abundance of caution, have asked the witness to take off his

19     earphones.

20             But that seems, Ms. Marcus, for a better understanding of what

21     the legal basis of what the decision is, to know the articles might

22     assist.  Would you disagree with that?

23             MS. MARCUS:  No, Your Honour, I agree.  And we accept

24     Mr. Jordash's assertion that this law -- I know there are a lot of laws

25     that have been tendered into evidence.  If he says that this hasn't been

Page 13778

 1     tendered in its entirety, then we accept that.  And if it's the official

 2     law, the Official Gazette, then we have no objections.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me -- perhaps I take the time, since we are

 4     lawyers, to briefly read them.

 5             Yes, I have read it.  Is there any objection against admission?

 6     Ms. Marcus, not?

 7             MS. MARCUS:  No, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  They are then admitted, from the bar table I would

 9     think.

10             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, please.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

12             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be D408, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.  There's no need to

14     have it under seal.

15             Mr. Jordash, please proceed.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

17        Q.   I want to try to have you explain more clearly, if you could, the

18     issue of expenses and salary.

19             When you went into Croatia, as you told us you did, how did you

20     receive your salary, first of all?

21        A.   I received my regular salary.

22        Q.   And what about expenses.  How did it work?  Were you paid

23     expenses, and, if so, in which way?  How did it work?

24        A.   In 1991, my expenses were not covered.

25        Q.   And in 1992?

Page 13779

 1        A.   I don't know about 1992.  But the fact of the matter is that

 2     based on the 1995 or 1994 decision, they were covered.

 3        Q.   Do you know why your expenses were not covered in 1991?  Would

 4     they ordinarily have been covered if you were working in Serbia?

 5        A.   Even if I had been working in Serbia, I don't know if it would

 6     have been ordinarily covered.  I can't remember whether it was an

 7     administrative issue or simply conditions were not in place for these

 8     expenses to be covered.  I don't know what the reason behind it was.  It

 9     was a very long time, after all.  A very long time ago.

10        Q.   Did you have any additional expenses, working in Croatia,

11     additional to what you would have had if you were working in Serbia?

12        A.   No, not many additional expenses.  No.

13        Q.   Which additional expenses did you have?

14        A.   I did say we did not have some additional expenses, no.

15     Generally speaking, the situation was very difficult in that area.  And

16     whatever participation there was, it was mine and not my associates --

17     and not of my associates who were in the area.  If you look at the

18     expenses that I incurred overall, you could say that I did spend more

19     money there than I would have had I been at home.

20        Q.   The retroactive decision which we looked at in relation to you

21     refers to a situation or a decision which relates to the

22     Autonomous Province of Kosovo.  Do you know anything about any decision

23     that was made by the ministry of Serbia in relation to Kosovo at around

24     the time you were in Croatia?

25             MS. MARCUS:  Can we know which ministry?

Page 13780

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, your question:

 2             "Do you know anything about any decision that was made by the

 3     ministry in [sic] Serbia in relation to Kosovo at around the time you

 4     were in Croatia?"

 5             That is a question which I would find difficult to answer, but,

 6     of course, I'm not the witness.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Let me try to clarify.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 13781











11 Pages 13781-13785 redacted. Closed session.
















Page 13786

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11        Q.   Right.  Let's leave that subject there and let's go to the

12     Erdut Agreement and your use of the name Milan Lakic.

13             First of all, was that the first time you'd used the name

14     Milan Lakic during your service?

15        A.   Yes.  The first and the only time.

16        Q.   Had you ever used another name?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Why did you use that name?  What was the point of you attending

19     the meetings under that false name?

20        A.   I was given that name.  It was based on a proposal by

21     Milan Milanovic, Mrgud.  Because there were upcoming direct negotiations

22     with the representatives of the Croatian community, he thought it would

23     be useful to bring me along as the secretary of our team.  And I accepted

24     the arrangement, and that's how things went.

25             But let me repeat:  I do not see anything wrong if I'm using an

Page 13787

 1     alias in my operative work.

 2        Q.   Who were you hiding your identity from and for what purpose?

 3     That's the question.

 4        A.   From the members of the Croatian delegation.

 5        Q.   And for what purpose?

 6        A.   So that I could stay within this negotiation team, because I

 7     believe that the Croatian side would have known my full name.

 8        Q.   Why did you want to be or why were you -- why did you consider it

 9     operatively useful to be in the team?

10        A.   I believe that being able to monitor such a negotiation, well,

11     that would certainly fall under my normal operative duties.  And we

12     didn't have any other means of doing so.  I got involved.  It was based

13     on the proposal - let me repeat - of Milan Milanovic, and I was the only

14     one who was taking minutes and writing down the essence of what was being

15     discussed there, unlike the rest of them.

16        Q.   And why did you think that the Croatian delegation would know who

17     you were or know your proper name?

18        A.   I cannot confirm how or why, but it was just a way of protecting

19     my identity.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, could we nevertheless try to get an

21     answer to your question.

22             What would the Croatian members of the Croatian delegation -- why

23     would they not have accepted you under your own name?  What would have

24     happened if your own name would have been used?  I mean, all the others

25     used their own names as well, isn't it?

Page 13788

 1        A.   Because I assume under my full name they would be able to know

 2     who I am, who am I working for.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You would appear, then, as the secretary of the

 4     delegation, isn't it?  Just someone who, as you said, took notes.  How

 5     could that in any way reveal anything else than performing your function

 6     at that time?  It's rather unclear to me.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assumed they knew my name, my

 8     surname, and that a person with that name and surname is a member of the

 9     Serbian State Security.  By using a different name and by being

10     introduced as a secretary of the team, it was easy for me to attend.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  So the purpose was to hide that among the members of

12     the delegation there was a person who is a member of the Serbian State

13     Security; is that what you say was the purpose of that that should be

14     hidden?

15             And then, of course, the next question is:  Why should that be

16     hidden?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated] My question was:  Why

19     should that be hidden?

20             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, your mike was off.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, there may be -- the microphone was not working,

22     so the interpreters might not have heard what I said.

23             The question, then -- the purpose, apparently, was to hide that

24     there was a Serbian DB member in the delegation.  Now, why should that be

25     hidden?  Why could that not be known to the other delegation?

Page 13789

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very simple reason:  So that I

 2     could stay there and attend the negotiations.  Had they found out my true

 3     identity, I don't really believe they would accept my presence there.

 4     They wouldn't accept me sitting there attending the negotiations.  No.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Why not?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was just my assessment of the

 7     situation.  I cannot claim that certainly it would have had such an

 8     effect.  But that was my thinking at the time.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Did it ever come to your mind that the fact that you

10     were -- it should be hidden that the Serbian DB was in any way involved

11     in these negotiations?  Is that -- is that what you had on your mind?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  This was just my position, and

13     I also had this arrangement with this other person.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that does not further clarify the purpose and

15     the aim of all of it.  Were the international -- the internationals

16     involved in these negotiations, were they also not aware of your true

17     name and your true function?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They knew about me for at least six

19     months before the negotiations.  Mr. Galbraith, Mr. Stoltenberg, they

20     knew me as an associate of Mr. Milanovic.  No one ever asked me what my

21     name was.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but as far as you knew, they were not aware that

23     you were an employee of the Serbian DB Vojvodina SUP and that you were --

24     that you were acting under a name different from your true name?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think they knew for whom I

Page 13790

 1     worked.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 3             Mr. Jordash, I am looking at the clock.  I'm also interested to

 4     know how much more time you would need.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  15 minutes would be ...

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  15 minutes.

 7             Then - and I'm looking, then, at the Prosecution - how much more

 8     time?

 9             MS. MARCUS:  I would have a few questions to follow-up,

10     Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  A few questions.  What's a few?  I mean, are we

12     talking about five minutes or about 20 minutes?

13             MS. MARCUS:  Five minutes, approximately.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Five minutes.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we take the break --

17             Witness, we would like to see you back in approximately half an

18     hour.  Would you please follow the usher at this moment.

19             Mr. Jordash, the Chamber, during the last break, has considered

20     your request not to even start the examination-in-chief of the next

21     witness.  That request is denied.  The Chamber expects you to start your

22     examination-in-chief.

23             If it comes to a point where you feel that you could not further

24     proceed on the basis of the reasons you've given, then, of course, we'll

25     consider that, but you're expected to start the next witness after this

Page 13791

 1     one.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, I can say now that I won't come to

 3     that point because the point, as far as we're concerned, is now.  So

 4     nothing's going to happen during the examination which changes our

 5     position one way or another.  The problem remains as we see it, from the

 6     beginning.  And I will continue until I finish, because it's not going to

 7     get any better or worse.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             There is someone who is, I think, is -- it could be me, as a

10     matter of fact as well, but if not, the mobile phone is hereby warned

11     that it is at risk of being seized and then, of course, later returned to

12     the owner.

13             We take a break, and we resume at five minutes to 6.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 5.29 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, you may proceed.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.  Can I just, first of all, confess to my

18     phone being the guilty culprit --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. JORDASH:  -- and apologise to you and to my Case Manager who

21     believed it to be his.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, a conditional seizure is hereby pronounced.

23             MR. JORDASH:

24        Q.   Mr. Witness, I just want to move quickly through the last

25     remaining clarifications.  Just before I move to the next subject:  The

Page 13792

 1     Erdut Agreement, are you able to know, or did you know at the time, what

 2     the Serbian government's position was in relation to the Erdut Agreement?

 3        A.   I don't think it would have been signed.  It wouldn't have been

 4     signed to begin with had Serbia not agreed to it.  Well, actually, it

 5     would have been signed, but I do believe that the Republic of Serbia and

 6     President Milosevic expressed their agreement with the signing of it.

 7        Q.   Do you know what Matic's view and Babic's view was of the signing

 8     of the Erdut Agreement?

 9        A.   I don't know what their views were, specifically.  The general

10     response of the people in the area was that of dissatisfaction.

11        Q.   Do you know why, what the basis of that dissatisfaction was?

12        A.   Well, the basis was the establishment of the Croatian authority

13     in that area.

14        Q.   Thank you.  In release to you attending the Kula award ceremony,

15     did you receive an award?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you were asked yesterday, and I want to quote

18     directly --

19             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honours, page 13684.

20        Q.   It was put to you the following:

21             "The evidence in this case has been that from April 1991 through

22     to the end of 1991, Serb forces, in particular special units of the

23     Republic of Serbia DB, operating in co-ordination with the JNA, the TO,

24     and paramilitary forces, committed crimes in and attacked and took

25     control of towns and villages in the SAO SBWS.

Page 13793

 1             "Now, my question is:  If we have understood your evidence

 2     correctly, you did not gather any information regarding armed attacks and

 3     combat operations involving these Serb forces; is that accurate?

 4             "A.  Yes, you're right.  Your understanding is correct.

 5             "Q.  Therefore, to the extent the Serbian MUP, DB, was engaged in

 6     these operations either directly or through organising, financing,

 7     supplying, and directing the involvement of special units in these

 8     operations, this information would not have been brought to your

 9     attention, and you would, in fact, not have sought out such information.

10             "Is that accurate?

11             "A.  Yes, that's accurate."

12             Now, I want to break that down a little.  There is evidence in

13     this case that one of the special units of the Serbian DB was

14     Arkan's Men.  Would you have been interested in that, operatively

15     speaking?

16        A.   In general, yes, combat activities, but I had never heard of

17     Arkan's unit having been part of the Serbian DB.

18        Q.   What you do you mean, "In general, yes, combat activities"?

19        A.   I wasn't interested in combat activities.  My comment is that I

20     knew of the existence of these units, but it's the first time that I'm

21     hearing that Arkan's unit was a special unit of the Serbian DB.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note that there is a

23     microphone on somewhere.

24             MR. JORDASH:

25        Q.   Now, you would say you would not, as you've told us - and I'm not

Page 13794

 1     going to dwell on that, I think you've made your position clear - you

 2     wouldn't have been interested in combat activities.  Would you have been

 3     aware if the DB, the Serbian DB, had been providing supplies to

 4     Arkan's Men in 1991 in Erdut or Dalj?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Would you expect the military security to have been aware of such

 7     supplies?

 8        A.   Yes, that is to be expected.

 9        Q.   Do you know how large the Novi Sad Corps was, approximately, in

10     1991?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Do you know how active the military security was in the region

13     that Arkan was operating in in 1991, in Eastern Slavonia?

14        A.   I don't know specifically how active they were, but I'm sure that

15     security was just part of their regular duties, dealing with the required

16     assessments and logistics.  So I suppose that they knew.

17        Q.   Sorry, they knew what?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  But, Mr. Jordash, you asked, Do you know something?

19     And then the witness now is explaining that he supposes something to

20     know.  And then you asked --

21             MR. JORDASH:  My fault.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

23             MR. JORDASH:

24        Q.   Now, there's been evidence in this case that the Serbian DB had a

25     training base in Petrova Gora in 1991.  Would you have been operatively

Page 13795

 1     interested in such a training base?

 2        A.   No, I would not have been interested.  Besides, I don't know the

 3     location of Petrova Gora.

 4        Q.   Sorry.  I misspoke.  There's been evidence in this case that the

 5     Serbian DB had a training base in Pajzos in 1991.  Were you aware of a

 6     training base in Pajzos in 1991 run by Serbian DB?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a composite question.  Could we split it up.

 8     First whether the witness is aware of a training base, and then,

 9     depending on his answer ...

10             Were you aware of a training base in Pajzos in 1991?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

13             MR. JORDASH:

14        Q.   Would you have expected the military security to be interested in

15     a training base in Pajzos in 1991, recruiting and training men for combat

16     action?

17        A.   I suppose, yes.

18        Q.   Have you ever read a military security report which details a

19     training base in Pajzos, run by the DB, in 1991?

20        A.   Not at the time, no.  Absolutely not.

21        Q.   Any time since then?

22        A.   Yes, upon my arrival here in The Hague.

23        Q.   There's been evidence in this case that the DB was -- let me

24     break that down.

25             There's been evidence in this case that there was a training base

Page 13796

 1     in Ilok in 1991 recruiting and training men for combat action.  Did you

 2     observe anything to suggest that's the case -- that was the case?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Would you have been operatively interested in that?

 5        A.   The training of military units is not something that I would have

 6     been operatively interested in.

 7        Q.   So we can shortcut things:  Would you expect the military

 8     security to have been interested in that and made reports accordingly?

 9        A.   Absolutely, yes.

10        Q.   Thank you.  There's been evidence in this case that the DB in

11     1992 formed a combat squadron and had thousands of combat reconnaissance,

12     transport, and humanitarian flights.  Did you hear of that in 1992?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Let me just return briefly to training camps.  There's been

15     evidence in this case that there was a training camp in Vukovar training,

16     recruiting men for combat.  Did you hear about that training camp?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   There has been evidence in the case that the Red Berets was one

19     of the special units of the Serbian DB, and I think the suggestion is

20     that it was involved in combat operations in Eastern Slavonia.  Would you

21     have been operatively interested in that special unit being involved in

22     combat operations with the Novi Sad Corps or the TO of the SBWS?

23        A.   Since they were combat activities, I would not have been

24     interested in them.

25        Q.   Would you have expected the military security of the

Page 13797

 1     Novi Sad Corps to have been interested in the Red Berets engaged in

 2     combat with the Novi Sad Corps and the TO of the SBWS?

 3        A.   Yes.  That would surely be part of their regular duties.

 4        Q.   Did anyone bring to your attention at the time in 1991 that the

 5     Red Berets were engaged in combat with the Novi Sad Corps or the TO of

 6     SBWS?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   There's been evidence in this case that Arkan carried a DB ID

 9     card, identification card, with him.  Did you ever hear that at the time?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   There's a suggestion in the case that there was training bases

12     run by the Serbian DB, and Arkan's Men attended those training bases.

13     Did you ever hear that or would you have been operatively interested in

14     it?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   And, finally:  There's a suggestion in this case that since 1991,

17     since April 1991, the DB was involved in supplying and transporting

18     weapons from the JNA barracks of Boban Potok to the TO in Borovo Selo.

19             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, I'm just wondering how all of this

20     arises out of the cross-examination.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Well, it arises because of the global proposition

23     the Prosecution put to the witness, and I'm clarifying whether, in fact,

24     the specifics that can be dealt with --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Was this your last one?


Page 13798

 1             MR. JORDASH:  This is the last one.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then please proceed.

 3             MR. JORDASH:

 4        Q.   Mr. Witness, there's a suggestion in this case that since

 5     April of 1991 the DB was involved in supplying and transporting weapons

 6     from the JNA barracks of Boban Potok to the TO in Borovo Selo, the

 7     transport being overseen by members of the DB.  Would you have been

 8     operatively interested in that?

 9        A.   No.  But I don't see why the DB should be involved in that, since

10     the weapons belonged to the JNA.

11        Q.   I've got nothing further.  Thank you, Mr. Witness.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jordash.

14             Ms. Marcus, a few questions.

15             MS. MARCUS:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

16                           Further Cross-examination by Ms. Marcus:

17        Q.   Did you have a passport or an ID card with the name Milan Lakic

18     on it?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Now, for six months prior to October 1995 you were holding

21     yourself out as an associate of Milan Milanovic to international

22     mediators; is that right?

23        A.   That was how Milan Milanovic introduced me.

24        Q.   Had they asked you your name, what would you have said?

25        A.   I would have told them my real name, full name.

Page 13799

 1        Q.   Now, yesterday, at transcript page 13621 to -22, you were asked

 2     if you had anything to do with the negotiations for the Erdut Agreement.

 3     You said:

 4             "Yes, I took part in negotiations as a member of the team."

 5             You were asked:

 6             "And how did that come about, that you ended up taking part in

 7     the negotiations?"

 8             You responded:

 9             "Already in 1994 I directed all my activities at work at

10     collecting intelligence in that area.  I insisted, given that I knew a

11     lot of people there, local people and officials, that I be allowed to

12     occasionally take part in those talks as well."

13             A bit further down, you were asked:

14             "Who instructed you to take part, if anyone?"

15             And your answer was:

16             "It was my own initiative and my own proposal, and my chief,

17     Milovan Popivoda, fully agreed to this."

18             And you were asked:

19             "Precisely what role did you play?  Precisely, please."

20             And your answer was:

21             "I did not have a precisely defined role in any form, initially,

22     apart from being, A, one who would co-operate with and be host to our

23     foreign guests."

24             Now, just before, you said, when you were asked, Why did you

25     consider it operatively useful to be in the team, you said:

Page 13800

 1             "I believe that being able to monitor such negotiations, well,

 2     that would certainly fall under my normal operative duties.  And we

 3     didn't have any other means of doing so.  I got involved.  It was based

 4     on the proposal - let me repeat - of Milan Milanovic, and I was the only

 5     one who was taking minutes and writing down the essence of what was being

 6     discussed there, unlike the rest of them."

 7             So, now, my questions on this are:  Was it you who suggested you

 8     take part in the negotiations or Mrgud?

 9        A.   As for the Croatian delegation, this was already toward the end

10     of the negotiations, I took part in that at the proposal of

11     Milan Milovanovic -- Milanovic.  All the earlier discussions, of varying

12     importance, I attended of my own accord because I wanted to know the

13     issues discussed.  Mr. Milanovic was unable to convey them to me in

14     accurate terms, so I suggested that I sit there with him during these

15     meetings in order to make notes.

16        Q.   Your words were "I insisted on being present."  So what do you

17     mean?  It seems a contradiction to me.

18        A.   It doesn't sound contradictory.  It's a strong word, to insist.

19     There was nothing I could insist on with Mr. Milanovic.  I was not able

20     to work on him in any way.  I asked him if it would pose any sort of

21     difficulty with him if I attended these meetings, and he agreed.  There

22     was nothing that I could insist on with him.

23        Q.   So at the negotiations, you held yourself out to be secretary; is

24     that right?

25        A.   Mr. Milanovic introduced me in this way.  He was the one who made

Page 13801

 1     up the team and was its chief.

 2        Q.   So why did you say yesterday that you -- your role was to

 3     co-operate with and be host to our foreign guests?

 4        A.   I didn't say that.  It must have been poor interpretation.  I

 5     most certainly didn't say that, that I should co-operate with and be host

 6     to.  I don't see how I would have played host under those circumstances.

 7        Q.   Who did Ilija Kojic hold himself out to be at the negotiations?

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MR. JORDASH:  I do wonder where we are going with this.  I mean,

11     I thought the issue was one of credibility and I thought that the

12     Prosecution's cross-examination had finished.  I mean, I didn't object

13     because Your Honours seemed content with the Prosecution cross-examining.

14     But there has to be, in our submission, a limit to -- we're now moving

15     into a new subject.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Until now, Ms. Marcus, the role of this witness and

17     his direct relation to Mr. Milanovic was the subject.  Apparently we are

18     now entering a new area.  Is that apart from the few questions and the

19     five minutes?

20             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, I have one last question after this

21     question, and that would be it.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then I will be as practical as I was before.

23     Please proceed.

24             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Who did Ilija Kojic hold himself out to be?

Page 13802

 1        A.   As far as I know, he was there under his full name.  He was a

 2     policeman in the Republic of Croatia.  I don't see any other possibility.

 3     He was there as Ilija Kojic, I presume.

 4        Q.   Well, if Ilija Kojic was working for the Serbian DB, as he has

 5     said he was, why did you need two Serbian DB operatives to attend this

 6     negotiation?

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  It's a very leading question?  That's ...

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24             MS. MARCUS:  I'm going to rephrase my question.

25        Q.   Ilija Kojic had said at one point that he worked for the Serbian

Page 13803

 1     DB.  Why would you need two Serbian DB operatives to attend that

 2     international negotiation?

 3        A.   I hear it only here from you that Ilija Kojic was at the time

 4     working for the Serbian DB.

 5             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, I have no further questions.  I wanted

 6     to just put on the record that the law that Mr. Jordash tendered into

 7     evidence before, the transcript didn't record the exhibit number, so I'm

 8     sorry for this.

 9             The 65 ter number was 1D05056.  That law is already admitted into

10     evidence as P1044.  But Mr. Jordash is right that the laws that he was

11     referring to, the articles in that law, were only with a summary

12     translation in e-court.  So what I would recommend is that whichever

13     exhibit that was admitted as, that that vacated, and that if Mr. Jordash

14     has a full English translation, that - with the Chamber's leave - that

15     that be uploaded and attached to P1044.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, is that a useful suggestion?

17             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I would also recommend that the articles you --

19     for which you provided now a translation, the original, apparently, is

20     not in every respect legible, because in the translation we find several

21     times "illegible."  Now, many people say that laws are usually illegible,

22     but that is on a different level, I would say.  So if you could try to

23     incorporate this but then, perhaps, after we've reviewed the original

24     text and taken out the illegible parts of the ... then, if you would then

25     upload that, incorporate it in P1044, and that it would then be replaced.


Page 13804

 1     Which also means that there's no problem any more in not knowing the --

 2     an exhibit number, because whatever exhibit number was signed to it --

 3             Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  It was D408, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And that is then vacated, expecting it to be

 6     incorporated in P1044.

 7                           Questioned by the Court:

 8             Witness DST-063, I have two questions for you.  First, Arkan's

 9     training camp, did you ever discuss that subject with the Defence?  And

10     could you provide us with any information about Arkan's training camp.

11        A.   Yes, I did, but my answer was the same as I've been giving here.

12     I was not paying attention to such activities, if any.  And that was my

13     response to them.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I understand you well that talking about Arkan's

15     training camp, you were not even aware, if it exists, where it would have

16     been located?

17        A.   That's correct, what you just said.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you ever hear about it at the time, that is, in

19     the early 1990s?

20        A.   I did hear about it.  It was covered in the media.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Apart from the media, anywhere else you did hear

22     about it?

23        A.   No, except for the fact that within the army and the

24     Territorial Defence a unit of Arkan's was also somehow active, but I

25     didn't even know the name of the unit at the time.

Page 13805

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm talking about training camps.  This answer is

 2     about a unit.  Did you hear anywhere else about a training camp related

 3     to Arkan?

 4        A.   Yes, but that was in the period 1993, 1994, not in 1991.

 5        Q.   And that was a training camp located where?

 6        A.   I don't know the exact location, but somewhere between Dalj and

 7     Erdut.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             Then a totally different subject.  You said you were introduced

10     by Mr. Milanovic as the secretary.  Did he also introduce you by the name

11     which is not your own name?

12        A.   Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And you said if someone would have asked about your

14     name, you would have given your real name.

15        A.   That was before the start of the negotiations with the Croatian

16     delegation, significantly before the negotiations.  At that time, I would

17     have told them my true name.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  But during the negotiations and during the

19     preparations, if someone would have asked you what your name was, you

20     would not have given your own full name?

21        A.   At the beginning of my attendance there at the meetings, had

22     anyone asked me I would have given my true name and I would stick by it

23     until the end.  But since no one ever asked me about my name, I seized

24     the opportunity and I accepted this proposal or suggestion made by

25     Milanovic and went by this other name.

Page 13806

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, I'm just trying to imagine a situation where

 2     someone would have said, "Well, I didn't hear your name.  Well, what's

 3     your name?"  And you would have given your own name.  Then all the

 4     reasons why you were acting under this pseudonym or alias would just not

 5     be valid any more, Mr. Milanovic becoming someone who lies about the

 6     names of the members of his delegation?  I'm really -- to say the least,

 7     I'm puzzled by your answer, that you would have given, under those

 8     circumstances, where you were introduced by Mr. Milanovic under a

 9     different name, that if someone would have asked again about your name,

10     and that despite all the reasons you explained to us why it was important

11     not to use your own name, and then you tell us, "Well, if someone would

12     have asked, of course I would have given --" well, you didn't say "of

13     course," but "I would have given my own name."

14             That is an answer that at least puzzles me.  Could you please

15     think about it, and whether you really would have given your own name if

16     someone would have asked you about your name.

17        A.   I can.  And my first steps when this type of work is concerned

18     were related to contacts between Mr. Milanovic and representatives of

19     various missions and organisations that were present in the area.  At

20     later stages, that started to involve foreign diplomats and other such

21     delegations.  Throughout that period, I was not involved in any

22     discussions.  I was only present there to take notes.  And no one up

23     until --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you.  My question is:  Once you were

25     introduced to either the internationals or the Croatian delegation under

Page 13807

 1     a name which isn't your name, acting as a secretary, if someone would

 2     have asked you "What, again, is your name?", you would have given your

 3     own full name?  That is my question.  And not on how it developed,

 4     but ...

 5        A.   I obviously did not understand your question.  I apologise.  Once

 6     I have taken the name of Milan Lakic, I would have stuck by that name

 7     until the end.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Even if someone would have asked you, then you would

 9     have given that name.

10             Thank you for that answer.  I have no further questions for you.

11             Have the questions of the Bench triggered any questions for ...

12             If not, this then concludes, Witness DST-063, your testimony.  I

13     would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague.  I hope that

14     you recovered well.  I thank you for answering the questions that were

15     put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return

16     home again.  You may follow the usher.

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 13808











11 Pages 13808-13810 redacted. Closed session.
















Page 13811

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [The witness entered court]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Witness DST-040.  Can you hear me in

22     a language you understand?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence in this Court, the Rules of

25     Procedure and Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration.  The


Page 13812

 1     text is now handed out to you.  May I invite you to make that solemn

 2     declaration.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 4     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 5                           WITNESS: DST-040

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

 8             Witness DST-040, at this moment we are in closed session, which

 9     means that the outside world does not hear your evidence and that they

10     cannot see you.  This is on the basis of a request made by the Serbian

11     government.

12             Now, we have provisionally decided that you will testify in

13     closed session.  We are seeking further information about the reasons,

14     whether they really justify your testimony to be heard in closed session,

15     which means that at any point in time in the future it may well be that

16     this Chamber decides that your testimony will be public.  We are

17     communicating with the Serbian government about these matters.

18             Further, I would like to inform you that we've only ten minutes

19     left today, but we nevertheless wanted to start to hear your evidence.

20     We'll continue tomorrow, and then you're allowed to return to your own

21     place because we are not sitting for a couple of weeks, then, and we'll

22     inform you when we'd like to see you back after this couple of weeks'

23     break.

24             You'll now first be examined by Mr. Jordash.  Mr. Jordash is

25     counsel for Mr. Stanisic.


Page 13813

 1             Mr. Jordash, please proceed.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3                           Examination by Mr. Jordash

 4        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.

 5        A.   Good afternoon.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Now, please, could we have on the screen 1D05042.

 7        Q.   You'll see in front of you in a moment a sheet -- oh, sorry, a

 8     document with personal details.  Would you look at it, please, and

 9     confirm whether they are accurate.

10        A.   Yes, they are.

11             MR. JORDASH:  May I tender that as an exhibit, please.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be D408, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  D408 is admitted into evidence under seal.

15             Please proceed.

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 13814











11 Pages 13814-13817 redacted. Closed session.
















Page 13818

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 8             We adjourn for the day and will resume tomorrow, Friday,

 9     the 2nd of September, at 9.00 in this same courtroom, II.  But to the

10     extent the public would wish to follow the proceedings, we'll immediately

11     turn into closed session again.

12             We stand adjourned.

13                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 2nd day

15                           of September, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.