Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13979

 1                           Wednesday, 5 October 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is the case IT-03-69-T, The Prosecutor versus Jovica

 9     Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             If there are no procedural matters to be raised, then I would

12     like to ask the usher to escort the witness in the courtroom.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Novakovic.  May I remind you that

15             You're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given

16     yesterday that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

17     the truth.

18             Mr. Jordash, are you ready to continue your examination .

19             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

21                           WITNESS:  RADENKO NOVAKOVIC [Resumed]

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23                           Examination by Mr. Jordash: [Continued]

24        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Novakovic?

25        A.   Good morning.

Page 13980

 1        Q.    I have approximately 30 minutes of questions for you before

 2     other parties will want to ask you some questions.

 3             Could we have P2448 on the screen, please.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honours, item number 11 in the chart.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I believe this document is presently

 7     under seal.  However, in light of the Chamber's ruling with respect to

 8     the protective measures for the witness, I did review the document

 9     further and believe it would be okay to change its status to public.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Any response to ...?

11             MR. JORDASH:  In principle, we don't object.  It's -- the only

12     query I would have is whether there is a separate issue of protective

13     measures for documents as contrasted with the protective measures for

14     the -- any state security personnel.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The bottom line is the same.

16             Mr. Weber, perhaps it would be wiser for the Chamber just to

17     review it as well, not that there's any distrust as far as you have

18     reviewed, but we have our own responsibility and we will have to look at

19     whether there are any BIA sources, BIA operatives, or any locations.  But

20     we'll certainly pay attention to change the status, as you suggested.

21             Mr. Bakrac, any observations in this respect?

22             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.  For the time being, the

24     document remains under seal.

25             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 13981

 1        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, this, as I think you told us yesterday, is an

 2     Official Note of an interview which you conducted.  And if we go to page

 3     4 of the English and 4 of the B/C/S, we can see your name against the

 4     signature.  And I presume that's your signature; is that right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, I think it's agreed again between us and the Prosecution

 7     that you interviewed Milan Lukic and the interview was conducted properly

 8     without coercion.  You agree with that?

 9        A.   No, no.

10        Q.   When you say "no, no," you're saying no, it was not conducted --

11     well, were all formalities carried out in relation to interviewing

12     Milan Lukic?  Was it conducted properly from your perspective?

13        A.   Absolutely.  All the legal regulations were observed and all the

14     preconditions were met to conduct that interview with him in the way I

15     described.

16        Q.   And if we go to page 4, or stay on page 4, at the end of -- or

17     halfway down the page you offer an opinion; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes, yes.  At the beginning of item 4.

19        Q.   And was that normal procedure for an operative following an

20     operative interview, or -- to offer an opinion as to the veracity or

21     reliability of the account offered?

22        A.   Absolutely.  That part of the document always reflects the

23     opinion of the operative officer, how the interviewee had based during

24     the interview, and how the operative views the veracity, the truthfulness

25     of the source.  You can't at the moment conduct all the checks as to what

Page 13982

 1     is true or not, but you can state your opinion on how the interviewee

 2     behaved and how truthful he was.

 3        Q.   Could I take you, please, to page 2 of the English and page 2 of

 4     the B/C/S, one-third of the page down where it begins:  "During the long

 5     interview the source stated the following ..." the account that then

 6     follows, was this a verbatim account or a summary of what Milan Lukic

 7     said?

 8        A.   This is a primary document, the one they're looking at.  And it

 9     was drafted based on an audio recording because the whole interviewee was

10     recorded.  At the beginning of the interview I warned Milan Lukic that it

11     would be recorded and he had nothing to object to.  And I state under

12     quotation marks what Milan Lukic said, based on the audio recording.

13             The interview was very long, one whole day.  We started in the

14     morning and ended in the evening, and that's why we keep the audio

15     recording.  In case we needed some more information from him, we would be

16     able to continue that interview.

17        Q.   Previous translation continues] ... is it a verbatim account or

18     not?

19        A.   This is verbatim what he said and what I took from the audio

20     recording and wrote down in the document.

21        Q.   Do I understand that to mean it's verbatim but it's not the whole

22     of what he said during the day?

23        A.   Correct.  You put in the document only what you think has any

24     operative importance from that interview.  Because there was a lot of

25     talking there.  He's not a very forthcoming person.  And during the

Page 13983

 1     interview, it takes time to get him to talk about subjects that we were

 2     interested in.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Now, halfway down that page Lukic claimed that he was

 4     trained by Pupe and Zoran, Red Berets, Knindzas in Ilok.

 5             Did he ever claim that he was trained by Serbian DB in Ilok?

 6        A.   Well he said exactly what's written here.  I was not familiar

 7     with that subject, so I quoted him in that part.

 8        Q.   If he had said that he was trained by the Serbian DB, would you

 9     have been interested in that?

10        A.   You know, I wouldn't show any interest, but I would certainly

11     write it down.

12        Q.   Thank you?

13             MR. JORDASH:  Could Mr. Novakovic please be given 1D01072.

14        Q.   We'll give you a paper copy because I know that's your

15     preference, Mr. Novakovic.

16             MR. JORDASH:  And it's in Your Honours' chart at 12.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

18             MR. WEBER:  Just as a reminder, I believe the Stanisic Defence

19     has prepared a copy of this document that's unredacted as the 65 ter

20     number .1.  I don't know if we should be using that document.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that the ruling of the Chamber was that the

22     unredacted copy should be used and should be admitted into the evidence;

23     whereas, at the end of the case, the redacted copies would be filed.

24     That's ... in order to -- not to be overwhelmed by various versions of

25     exhibits.

Page 13984

 1             Now we have access to it the unredacted copy, to the extent the

 2     document is shown to the public, of course, we could use a redacted

 3     version, although not the version that is or will be admitted into

 4     evidence, and I think it would be preferable if the witness, when he has

 5     a hard copy, that he gets the original, unredacted version.

 6             Is that what he received?

 7             Mr. Weber, that's ...

 8             MR. WEBER:  That would be fine, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             Let's proceed.

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer].

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, Madam Registrar asks to be -- to be

13     informed in detail about which is the unredacted copy, because that's the

14     one which will receive a number and which will be admitted into evidence;

15     whereas the unredacted copies have you to deal with that a filing at a

16     later stage.

17             So please provide Madam Registrar with the exact number of the

18     unredacted version.

19             MR. JORDASH:  I'm afraid that we've got the redacted version on

20     the screen.  I'm afraid that Mr. Novakovic has got the redacted version

21     as a hard copy.

22             So perhaps if we could have the unredacted version on the screen?

23        Q.   And I am afraid, Mr. Novakovic, you you'll have to --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And not to be shown to the public.

25             MR. JORDASH:  Not to be shown to the public?

Page 13985

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And does Madam Registrar know which number?

 2             Yes, there we are?

 3             MR. JORDASH:

 4        Q.   You have looked at this document before, Mr. Novakovic, and

 5     you've made some general comments in the chart at number 12.  And I just

 6     want to pick up on one issue, which is the issue of the reaction of the

 7     VRS to the -- or VRS leadership to the arrest of Milan Lukic?

 8             If we look at page 2 of the English and page 2 of the B/C/S, we

 9     can see there an account about Karadzic coming to Visegrad together with

10     General Gvero by helicopter.  And in paragraph 2, you'll see the

11     following:  "At this meeting" -- this is the meeting between Karadzic and

12     representatives of Gorazde, Visegrad, Rogatica and Rude municipalities.

13             [As read] "At the meeting Dr. Karadzic said that a Drina Corps

14     would be formed and that the candidates for its commander were three

15     persons from Serbia, of whom one was a general.  He said that because of

16     the situation a platoon of Milenko" - and it says here "Kasaric" but if

17     one looks at the original, I think it says "Karisika" - "special police

18     unit which would arrive from Zvornik and would say in Visegrad."

19             He said that the decision had been made to replace

20     Dr. Dusko Kornjaca and he was to blame for the situation in

21     Kanicija [phoen] and so forth.

22             Dr. Karadzic appears to, from this account, have control of

23     Karisik; is that something that you're familiar with?

24        A.   As far as I remember that time, the unit of the special police

25     was under the Ministry of Interior of Republika Srpska, I suppose.

Page 13986

 1        Q.   I just want to be clear.  As far as you were aware at that time,

 2     Karasic's unit was under the command of the Ministry of Interior of

 3     Republika Srpska.  Did it have anything to do with Serbia, as far as you

 4     were aware?

 5        A.   It certainly didn't.  Because, at that time, it was a separate

 6     state.  It happened on the territory of a different state.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now, just going further down to the page to the

 8     bottom of page 2 in the English and the top of page 3 of the B/C/S.

 9             There's an account there of Milan Lukic's father rallying

10     soldiers in front of the command in Visegrad and calling out to the

11     commander of the Tactical Group 1, Vinko Pandurevic, by saying, "You

12     assigned him this task, that is, Milan Lukic, and just as you assigned

13     him, now you get him out.  If there is treason on your part, I shall kill

14     you personally.  After this, the soldiers went their own ways, after

15     Pandurevic calmed them down by telling them this was an accidental arrest

16     and that Milan Lukic would be released.  Unofficially, during

17     Dr. Karadzic's visit, I heard that he personally called President

18     Milosevic about Lukic?"

19             Are you able to comment on these remarks in relation to the

20     reaction of the VRS leadership to the arrest by the Serbian MUP of

21     Milan Lukic?

22        A.   As you see from the document, I'd just like to note that I talked

23     about this with the employer who is covering the territory nearer to

24     Visegrad, and the sources we used were his sources.  As the source

25     mentions, after the -- after Dr. Karadzic left this meeting outside the

Page 13987

 1     building of the electrical company, many parents were gathered there,

 2     including the parents of Milan Lukic and they protested on that occasion

 3     against his arrest, and they were preparing a group or something to go

 4     and free him, after which he said that Milan Lukic was arrested in a

 5     state where law rules and if he is found to be innocent he will be

 6     released and given honours, but he also said that their approach was

 7     wrong, even though they were parents.  It was inappropriate for them to

 8     react in that way.

 9             So what was stated here was stated by the source, and in the

10     words of the source, he was present at the incident itself.

11        Q.   You said at the beginning of the answer to that question:  "I'd

12     just like to note that I talked about this with the employer who is

13     covering the territory nearer to Visegrad."

14             What did you mean by you talked to the employer?  Who is the

15     employer?

16        A.   I was saying I talked to my colleague about this.  And I talked

17     to Milan Lukic in the presence of that colleague, because that colleague

18     had briefed me about Milan Lukic in the first place and the topics we

19     would discussing with him.  He covered that territory.  I did not deal

20     with that at the time.  And these issues concerning Milan Lukic was under

21     the 3rd Administration.  It was the territory of a different state, so

22     other employ employees, other colleagues covered that area and those

23     kinds of activities.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Can I ask you to have a look at 1D05068.

25             MR. JORDASH:  I think we have a similar problem with redaction.

Page 13988

 1     We have an unredacted copy for the witness to look at.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber?

 3             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, just for the record, I just wanted to

 4     reiterate our standing objection to the documents that are not presently

 5     on the Stanisic exhibit list.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is on the record.

 7             MR. JORDASH:

 8        Q.   You've seen this document before, Mr. Novakovic?

 9             MR. JORDASH:  It's at, Your Honours, page 4 and item 14 of the

10     chart.

11        Q.   Let me take you, Mr. Novakovic, to the first page.  And we can

12     see a discussion there about the kidnapping of 17 citizens in Sjeverin

13     municipality of Priboj, in the area of municipality Rudo, in the village

14     Mioce.  The security situation in municipality it's noted in Priboj is

15     rapidly or has rapidly got worse.  The 2nd of November, 1992.

16             Is that something you can comment on?

17        A.   From the document, one can see that.  I saw that.  The document

18     was shown to me by the Defence team.  It was written --

19        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... I'm asking about whether you

20     have any independent knowledge, independent from the document?

21        A.   Well, he talks about certain aspects of the security situation in

22     the area of Priboj that resulted from the kidnapping of the people from

23     Sjeverin.  So he says it is disrupted and the interethnic situation in

24     that area became more complex.  And from this, we can see that even

25     before the arrest of Milan Lukic, by the state leadership of Yugoslavia,

Page 13989

 1     sent a minister for human rights to that area --

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...?

 3        A.   -- to try to calm down that situation.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Now you see then in the fourth paragraph

 5     reference to a strong PJM unit from the MUP being sent to Sjeverin to

 6     strengthen a VJ unit.  Do you know about --

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, Mr. Weber is on his feet.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Prosecution objects as to foundation.  This witness

10     has been asked whether or not he has any independent knowledge about the

11     document from what is in front of him.  The witness then did not squarely

12     answer that question.  Instead reiterated a description of what's in the

13     document.  We don't need the document itself to be used with the witness

14     if we're asking him about knowledge he has independent of it.  This is

15     leading and there is no foundation at this time for the witness's

16     knowledge of what's being asked?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Yesterday the witness testified to the sending of a

19     PJM unit to the region, in order to safe-guard Muslims, and that's what

20     I'm asking the witness about, whether there is correspondence between

21     what he said yesterday and what account is given in this document.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  There is certainly a leading element in that.  If a

23     witness talks about A and you give him a document, say is there a link.

24     There is, of course, a clear suggestion that there might be a link.  So,

25     If do you it in the most non-leading way possible, I would not stop you.

Page 13990

 1             MR. JORDASH:

 2        Q.   Just put aside the document and listen to my question for a

 3     moment, Mr. Novakovic.  Put aside the document, Mr. Novakovic?

 4             The PJM unit you mentioned yesterday being sent to the territory

 5     covered by Uzice, what was it sent to do, who was it sent by, and where

 6     was it operative?

 7        A.   T was sent by the Ministry of Interior, exactly to the area of

 8     Sjeverin to protect the Muslim population who were intimidated by this

 9     kidnapping.  They started withdrawing from that area towards Priboj and

10     it was sent to guarantee security, to provide reinforcements in that

11     area.  Sjeverin, there was a border unit of the army, and I know that in

12     that period there occurred not exactly a clash but a difference of

13     opinion because the army was against arresting Milan Lukic, and it was

14     the military units who were in charge of securing the border; whereas,

15     MUP units were there to protect law and order.  And from this text, we

16     see that members of the MUP also took into custody a military patrol.

17             It was actually the special police unit that took into custody a

18     military police unit who were looting the houses of Muslims who had fled

19     to Priboj.

20             So these units came there precisely to provide better security to

21     Muslim citizens.  Not long after that, in Prijepolje, which is not far

22     from Priboj, special police units staff was established precisely because

23     interethnic relations had been so disrupted by this kidnapping in this

24     Uzice part of Sandzak.

25        Q.   Thank you for your answer.

Page 13991

 1             When you speak of a military police unit, which military

 2     formation did that police unit derive from?

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness's microphones could be lifted a

 4     little bit, please.  Thank you.

 5        A.   [Previous translation continues] ... talking about the military

 6     patrol from that border army unit?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could your microphone be a bit higher.

 8             MR. JORDASH:

 9        Q.   Sorry, we didn't receive your last answer?

10             To whom did the military police unit belong?

11        A.   Do you mean the military unit?

12        Q.   In your last answer you mentioned [Overlapping speakers] ...?

13        A.   The military patrol?  You mean -- oh.  What I said was that the

14     MUP units took into custody a military patrol.  That is, a patrol that

15     patrols the border area of Sjeverin, and it belongs to the Army of

16     Yugoslavia.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Just turning to page 2 of this document and the

18     first -- sorry, page 2 of the English and page 2 of the B/C/S.  If you

19     look at the paragraph:

20             [As read] "The behaviour of Yugoslavia army's border units was

21     highly incorrect and unprofessional one.  The day Lukic was arrested some

22     individuals from VJ unit which was protected Sjeverin openly threatened

23     to use arms against MUP.  Among soldiers there were a lot of those who

24     used to be in paramilitary formations or they had some relatives within

25     those units.

Page 13992

 1             "Today the members of MUP were taken into custody ... military

 2     patrol from Sjeverin ...," and so on.

 3             How did you learn about this incident?  What's the source of your

 4     knowledge?

 5        A.   The source of my knowledge in this particular case is this

 6     particular piece of information.  But I know that people who worked in

 7     the territory, they came to the centre.  They talked about those

 8     incidents, and it is from them that I learned of what was going on in the

 9     area of Sjeverin.

10        Q.   Let me take you to another subject just briefly.  Pauk.

11             Sorry, before we get to Pauk, let me have a look at 1D05062.  And

12     it's in the chart at 6.

13             Now, this payment list.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber?

15             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, just have caution just in case there's

16     names of other individuals in here.  If there is any way that we could

17     please ask that it not be broadcast to the public.

18             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...

19             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, that was remiss of me.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  The document not to be shown to the public.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. JORDASH:

23        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, I'm just going to ask you about this document in a

24     moment.

25             First of all, in 1994, were you asked to go to work outside of

Page 13993

 1     Serbia?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And who requested that you go to work outside of Serbia; and

 4     where were you asked to go?

 5        A.   The leadership of the service and my chief of service that I

 6     worked for requested that I go and assist the service of the Republic of

 7     Serbian Krajina due to the fact that in the western past of the

 8     Republic of Serbian Krajina, there were some cases of unrest.  I

 9     volunteered to go together with two colleagues of mine, the same ones

10     that you can see in the document.

11             We were told that we would be involved in some

12     counter-intelligence work in the area, in order to step up the level of

13     security in that part of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

14        Q.   Did this have anything to do with Operation Pauk?

15        A.   Before my departure and my stint of over a month there, that

16     operation was never mentioned under that name.  The only thing that was

17     said was that we would be dispatched there to assist the colleagues in

18     Republic of Serbian Krajina in Kordun and Banija and that we would be

19     dealing with counter-intelligence support for that area.

20        Q.   Let me then take you -- did you go there?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... did you first arrive; and

23     what did you do upon your arrival?

24        A.   First, I went from Uzice to Belgrade.  I reported to the

25     2nd Administration there.

Page 13994

 1        Q.   From the 2nd -- go on, sorry?

 2        A.   And together with the other two colleagues, we spent a whole day

 3     in an office.  We were there till that evening before the departure.  At

 4     that time there seemed to have been a lack of organisation or, at least,

 5     that was my impression.

 6        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, I want to move forward just to deal with this

 7     briefly.

 8             I want to -- I'm interested in what happened when you arrived in

 9     the region.  Where did you go to?

10        A.   When I arrived in the region, I first arrived in Petrova Gora.  I

11     spent two days there, and from there, I went to Vojnic, and from Vojnic,

12     I went to Slunj.  I went to the shooting round of the technical military

13     centre.  That's where I was billeted, together with the two colleagues of

14     mine.

15        Q.   Who did you report to, if anyone, in Petrova Gora?

16        A.   In Petrova Gora, I arrived there by bus, from Belgrade.

17        Q.   Who did you report to when you arrived in Petrova Gora?  Did you

18     report to anyone in Petrova Gora?

19        A.   I arrived Petrova Gora, and I was billeted in a facility where we

20     spent two days without talking to anybody.  We did not have any

21     communication with anybody until the meeting that took place on the 8th

22     of September.

23        Q.   Where was the meeting on the 8th of September?

24        A.   That meeting was held in Petrova Gora on the 8th of September.

25        Q.   Are you sure it was the 8th of September?

Page 13995

 1        A.   It wasn't the 8th of September.  It was either the 8th or the 9th

 2     November.

 3        Q.   Who was at the meeting?

 4        A.   The chief of the state security sector, Mr. Jovica Stanisic, and

 5     Franko Simatovic attended the meeting, together with the representatives

 6     of the service of the Serbian Army of Krajina, the service of the state

 7     security of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, the MUP of the Republic of

 8     Serbian Krajina and there were also the three of us who represented the

 9     State Security Service of Serbia.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

11             MR. WEBER:  Based on the people that are being referred to now,

12     this is something that could be of particular importance.  We just would

13     ask where did Mr. Jordash, the Stanisic Defence give us notice of a

14     meeting containing this?  Because we do not find it.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

16             MR. JORDASH:  The summary notes that the witness was sent to Pauk

17     by Jovica Stanisic from 1994 to 1995.  He will describe his tasks and

18     explain that he reported to Jovica Stanisic but usually to the DB

19     Krajina.

20             It's right we haven't actually said there was a particular

21     meeting, but we would say it is implicit in that summary, that there is

22     contact between --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's call this the optimistic view, isn't it.

24             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I don't --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, specifically meetings, specific meetings with

Page 13996

 1     these participants, of course, might be something that should not be

 2     implicitly referred to but perhaps explicitly.  Isn't it?

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Well, we didn't regard the meeting as particularly

 4     significant [Overlapping speakers] ...

 5             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...

 6             MR. JORDASH:  [Overlapping speakers] ... Inasmuch as it could

 7     have been a telephone call, it could have been a radio message.  It

 8     simply [Overlapping speakers] ...  the witness is going to describe --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, you have got an answer to your question.

10     What next?

11             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, our position would be that that notice

12     is insufficient because of who was involved.  Also, we would like to

13     remind the Chamber:  We did not receive a proofing note, we did not

14     receive a statement.  If Mr. Jordash, clearly by his question,

15     specifically knew and has met with this witness prior to the testimony to

16     bring up a specific meeting.  We are prejudiced by lack of information

17     like that.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you like to have that put on the record

19     and then you will see how you will proceed.  Is that well understood?

20             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

22             MR. JORDASH:

23        Q.   You mentioned the service of the --

24             MR. JORDASH:  Just if I could have a moment.

25        Q.   What was the -- what happened at the meeting?

Page 13997

 1        A.   That was the first time anybody explained the reason for me and

 2     my colleagues being there.

 3             The meeting was chaired by Mr. Jovica Stanisic, and he told us

 4     that the meeting had been organised together security and intelligence

 5     segments of the services of the Serbian Army of Krajina, the MUP, and the

 6     state security.  And the aim of the meeting was to unify all the

 7     intelligence about the goings on in the territory [Realtime transcript

 8     read in error "Territorial Defence"] and stepping up the security level

 9     in Krajina.  The security was threatened by the refugees from the

10     Autonomous Province of Western Bosnia who arrived in the

11     Republic of Serbian Krajina.  As a result of that, the security situation

12     was bad.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have a problem

14     with the interpretation, page 18, line 23.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Even if have you a problem with the interpretation

16     could you wait until the interpretation stops before raising this matter.

17             You have a problem with page 18, line 23.

18             Could you tell us what your problem is?

19             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] An institution was referred to,

20     or, rather what was recorded was not mentioned by the witness himself.

21     The name of the institution as recorded in the transcript was not

22     mentioned by the witness.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  So you didn't hear that he was -- and I take it that

24     it's, then, Territorial Defence which in your view was --

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

Page 13998

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- not mentioned.  Now it is on the transcript.  I

 2     think we should review that, whether the transcript and the translation

 3     is correct in this respect, and whether your ears, Mr. Petrovic, are

 4     better than the ears of others in this courtroom.

 5            Could we ask the witness to repeat the answer.  You said the aim

 6     of the meeting was to unify all the intelligence.  And could you then

 7     tell us what you after that said.  To unify all the intelligence

 8     about ...

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To unify the entire intelligence

10     about the security situation in the territory with refugees from the

11     Autonomous Province of Western Bosnia.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's proceed.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.  Could we have on the screen D447.  I

14     just want to look very briefly at the map.

15        Q.   Now, we -- you confirmed that these are the -- these were the

16     locations of the refugee camps.

17             First of all, are you able to give an assessment as to how many

18     people were in these refugee camps at the time you were in the region?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

20             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I'm not sure that accurately states the

21     testimony - I'm checking right now - as to whether or not he said all of

22     them were refugee camps, those locations.

23             MR. JORDASH:  I'll clarify.

24        Q.   What -- which of these, if any, were refugee camps,

25     Mr. Novakovic?

Page 13999

 1        A.   Refugee camps were in Batnoga, Turanj.  Of those that are on the

 2     map.

 3        Q.   How many people were in Batnoga and Turanj?

 4        A.   Batnoga.

 5        Q.   How many people in Batnoga?

 6        A.   Look, the international media referred to some 20- to 30.000

 7     people in those camps.  However, from what I saw, I would say that there

 8     were between 15 and 20.000 people there who had fled from Western Bosnia.

 9             It was impossible to establish the exact number because the

10     situation changed daily.  Every day new people came to the camp and

11     overnight some people left the camp and returned to their original

12     Western Bosnian territory.  And that was the main problem at the time.

13             Likewise, the media also referred to as many as 25.000 refugees

14     in the refugee camp in Turanj.  I myself never saw as many in that area.

15        Q.   Are you able to give an assessment of how many in that area?

16        A.   In Batnoga, you mean.

17        Q.   No, Turanj.

18        A.   No, I can't.  I didn't spend any considerable time there.

19             What I was saying was that the estimates were the same for both

20     of these camps.  I actually never went there.

21        Q.   Okay.  Are you able to indicate the conditions of the refugees

22     and the conditions of the camps?

23        A.   Let me tell you, when I arrived in that area from my colleagues

24     from the Republic of Serbian Krajina and as I told you, we were billeted

25     in Slunj, I was astounded.  Batnoga is not a village.  It's not a

Page 14000

 1     location.  Actually those were 12 hangars that had been used by the

 2     Agrokomerc company from Kladusa and the population lived there in very

 3     hard condition.  My first impression that still lingers with me was when

 4     I saw hundreds of women sitting around those hangars cleaning their

 5     hair -- each other's heads from lice.  This was a terrible sight.  In

 6     other words, they were billeted in the hangars that had been previously

 7     been used by the Kladusa-based Agrokomerc, and I believe that that

 8     company had used those hangars to raise chicken there.  But the most

 9     important thing for them was that they had roof over their heads because

10     they had to flee from Kladusa and Western Bosnia because of war

11     activities.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, there is some confusion.

13             What you said in your last answer, is that all about Blatnoga, or

14     that's at least what I read, Batnoga, I don't know which of the two it

15     is, you're describing the situation there.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  The refugee camp,

17     Batnoga, that's where refugees were billeted after having fled

18     Western Bosnia.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  When you earlier said that you actually never went

20     there, you were referring to Turanj; is that correct?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I never entered Turanj.  With

22     my group, I stayed in Slunj, and I was in charge of going ...

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you went to Batnoga, and you never went to

24     Turanj.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never.

Page 14001

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 2             MR. JORDASH:

 3        Q.   Now, these refugees, these Muslim refugees from the

 4     Autonomous Province of Bosnia, you were told at the meeting with Stanisic

 5     that they presented a security risk and your job was to help coordinate

 6     the intelligence in relation to that.

 7             What was the security risk as you were told or as you perceived

 8     it?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

10             MR. WEBER:  Could I please just have the transcript reference

11     where he said exactly that, that the -- did he discuss the intelligence,

12     but relating to the refugees being the risk.

13             I see a general reference to something that could be considered

14     that, but I object to the form of the question as leading based on the

15     vague reference on page 18 at the end.

16             MR. JORDASH:  It's not a vague reference.  It says:

17             [As read] "... And the aim of the meeting was to unify all the

18     intelligence about the goings on in the territorial Defence and stepping

19     up the security level in Krajina.  The security was threatened by the

20     refugees from the Autonomous ..."

21             I almost quoted verbatim.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  If refugees were a threat to the security, they

23     could be considered to be a security risk.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. JORDASH:

Page 14002

 1        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, could you clarify what security risk or threat to

 2     the security was presented by the refugees as you were told, or as you

 3     perceived it?

 4        A.   When I was assigned to work with the team from Slunj, I was told

 5     that the refugee camp in Batnoga was active every day.  Which meant that

 6     on a daily basis from the territory of Western Bosnia, which was under

 7     the occupation of the 5th Corps, new refugees arrived, and then it also

 8     happened that two, three, or five returned to Western Bosnia.

 9             You can only imagine what risk that was.  Firstly, they fled to

10     the Republic of Serbian Krajina and then they could move freely from the

11     Batnoga camp, especially towards the Turanj camp.  I don't know why they

12     would do that, but I suppose they wanted to cross over to Croatia.  But I

13     can say that a lot of people from Batnoga would actually move to the

14     Turanj camp.  Let's say that the relative number was 40.000 but there

15     were even more refugees in the two centres, and they were a security

16     threat for that part of Krajina in Kordun because among those people who

17     had fled there were also members of the 5th Corps, former members of the

18     National People's Army of Western Bosnia, and in any case that was a

19     security threat for the then-Republic of Serbian Krajina and its

20     position.

21        Q.   All right, thank you.  Now, I want to move swiftly through this

22     then.

23             How long did you stay in the region conducting these tasks?

24        A.   I came around the 4th of November and returned 15th, 15th

25     December to Belgrade.

Page 14003

 1        Q.   Did you ever see Stanisic again in the region during your stay?

 2        A.   I did not.  I saw him that one time at the initial meeting, that

 3     first meeting where it was -- which discussed why we were there, why we

 4     had come, and it was a joint meeting of all security services, security

 5     branches represented at that meeting.

 6        Q.   With the information you gathered, who did you report it to?

 7        A.   All the information we would collect on the ground, my two

 8     colleagues and I, jointly with two representatives from the security

 9     service of the Republic of Serbian Krajina were reported to the service

10     of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina.  Our main task was to provide

11     this information to them because they collated it.  And I would

12     occasionally inform Belgrade as well, namely, the 2nd Administration

13     through the secure communications we had at Petrova Gora.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Now, let's return to the payment list very quickly.

15     1D05062, not to be shown to the public.

16             You've told us -- as this document comes up you told us that the

17     two gentlemen on the list were the two that went with you to

18     Petrova Gora.  Were you paid per diems during that time; and does this

19     reflect that?

20        A.   Precisely.  Any journey outside the centre entitled people to per

21     diem.  This is how we received per diem, the two of us, and this is a

22     receipt.

23        Q.   In the chart at number 6 -- there's no need for you to turn it

24     up.  But in the chart at number 6, you say that the payment had nothing

25     to do with you working for the PJM despite the fact it says that on the

Page 14004

 1     document.

 2             Do you know why this document would note PJM, even though you

 3     were not, as you've told us, working for the PJM?

 4        A.   I will try to explain, although I'm not a financial expert.

 5             At the time when interethnic relations were disrupted in Sandzak,

 6     in Kosovo, and elsewhere, the Presidency of the Republic of Serbia made a

 7     decision that special police units, the PJM, would be paid in this way,

 8     in per diem.  In fact, they received salaries in their original units

 9     when they were employed but when they would go into the field, on field

10     missions, to areas where security was disrupted, they would be paid in

11     the form of per diem, in keeping with that decision of the

12     Republic of Serbia, or, rather, its Presidency.

13             Since the State Security Service at that time was a sector of the

14     Ministry of Interior, the only way we could pay our operative officers

15     when they went outside in other areas of the Republic of Serbia or even

16     outside of Serbia, we were paid through this modality, which was a legal

17     modality for paying their costs and work on field missions.  From this,

18     can you see that every centre, including the centre where I worked, had a

19     financial officer and a treasurer, who dealt with the financial aspects

20     of the operation in everything concerning the employees of that centre.

21     He was responsible to the centre but also on a parallel track to the

22     financial service of the administration.  They would get a budget for a

23     month, and an operative worker could go and field missions within the

24     centre for his regular -- for -- for per diem from that budget.  But if

25     he went outside the centre he would be paid per diem from the budget from

Page 14005

 1     the administration in Belgrade, and that's -- that's what you can see

 2     from this paper, that this was signed by an officer in Uzice.

 3        Q.   Which administration --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

 5             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness, I

 6     believe, answered the question that my learned friend Mr. Jordash has

 7     just started asking, so I will refrain from comment.

 8             I see that my learned friend is just about to ask this question.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, then we would receive the answer twice.

10     That's the major risk we're in.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. JORDASH:

13        Q.   Which administration was the -- was on the parallel track with

14     the administration from the centre.

15             Let me simplify that.  You spoke about the issue arising from the

16     financial officer within the centre and then a parallel track with an

17     administration in Belgrade.  Which administration in Belgrade?

18        A.   The administration in charge of financial issues in Belgrade was

19     the 8th Administration of the DB at the time.

20        Q.   Milan Prodanic.  What was his position at the time of this

21     payment, this --

22        A.   He was the chief of the 8th Administration.

23        Q.   And just to wrap up this subject, what did this -- did this have

24     anything to do with Jovica Stanisic, the paying of per diems to you when

25     you were in the field, as far as you're aware?

Page 14006

 1        A.   I didn't understand you.

 2        Q.   Did the payment of per diems to you when you were in the field

 3     have anything to do with Jovica Stanisic?

 4        A.   He was the chief of the service.  He had nothing to do with this.

 5     This is standard procedure whenever employees go outside their local

 6     area.  It had to do something with the chief of the financial

 7     administration.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I try to understand this answer.

11             From what I understand you were instructed to go there and it was

12     explained to you in a meeting with Jovica Stanisic what your task was.

13     And as a consequence, you are paid per diems by the budget, not your own

14     budget.

15             So to say he has got nothing to do with it, of course, he was not

16     involved in the -- that's what I understand from your answer.  He was not

17     involved in paying out -- or administrative matters in relation to the

18     per diems.  But what he had to do with it, that, as a consequence of your

19     assignment by him to go there, you received these per diems from this

20     central budget and not your own budget.

21             Is that well understood?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may just add to what I said

23     earlier to try to be clearer.

24             I've said I'm not an expert in financial matters but I'm able to

25     understand that much.  At that time, by virtue of a decision made by the

Page 14007

 1     Republic of Serbia, a certain fund was established for payments to the

 2     members of the special police unit who went on field missions in the

 3     territory of -- of the Republic of Serbia, and every member of the

 4     State Security Service, that is, the special police unit, was paid from

 5     that fund, whenever they went to other areas to assist.

 6             In the same way, state security employees also went to other

 7     areas, mainly border areas where local personnel had less experience and

 8     people from the centre were sent there to assist them.  But the state

 9     security, being part of the MUP of Serbia, the only legal way of paying

10     these workers, was from this fund, and I suppose the service requested

11     funding for its own personnel from this fund.  People who were in charge

12     of finances and logistics within the service were in the

13     8th Administration, which had its chief.  He was in charge.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not seeking the details about how it was

15     organised but when you said it had nothing to with Stanisic, it was a

16     consequence of being assigned the task to go there that had as a

17     consequence that you were paid per diems out of this fund.

18             Is that ...

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are absolutely right.  As a

20     staff member, I was assigned to those tasks, and that triggers certain

21     procedures in finance.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

23             MR. JORDASH:  I note the time, Your Honour.  I'm sorry it has

24     taken so long.  I would like another ten minutes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we take a break, I have one follow-up

Page 14008

 1     question.

 2             Mr. Novakovic, you were asked whether being sent there was part

 3     of Operation Pauk.  Your answer was, "During the month or during the six

 4     weeks I was there, that the operation was never mentioned by that name."

 5             Now, my question to you is:  Is -- apart from what was said

 6     during this six weeks, can you tell us positively that it was not part of

 7     Operation Pauk, or do you have any other knowledge which would either

 8     link your presence to or not link your presence to Operation Pauk, if, at

 9     least, you know what Operation Pauk stands for?

10             Perhaps we start with the last question:  Are you familiar with

11     Operation Pauk and what it was?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I learned later on that the

13     Operation Pauk was a military operation to get the population that had

14     fled to return to the area of Western Bosnia.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Now then we go to the other question.

16             When you learned about Operation Pauk, did you ever learn

17     anything about a link between your presence, your assignment to go there,

18     and Operation Pauk?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood that while I was still

20     there.  I realized that our activities, the activities of the

21     intelligence group Slunj were part of or serving the operation aimed at

22     getting the population from Western Bosnia to return.  Because in talking

23     to the citizens in that area that crossed from one side to another all

24     the time, we found out what was going on, which forces were deployed

25     there on both sides, et cetera, what the movements were, and we informed

Page 14009

 1     the State Security Service of Serbia regularly.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Did I then well understand your answer that your

 3     presence there was related to the operation, which you later learned to

 4     be Operation Pauk, but the name of which was never mentioned when you

 5     were in that area?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While I was there in early

 7     December, I never once heard the moniker Pauk.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But that doesn't answer my question.  It is

 9     only part of the question.

10             You never heard the operation being called Operation Pauk; but

11     what you later learned about Operation Pauk, this military operation,

12     that was the operation in relation to which you performed your tasks.

13             Is that well understood?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  In the sense of collecting

15     intelligence.  That was my assignment.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             Then, Mr. Jordash, before we take the break, you made an

18     observation earlier in relation to 1D01072, which is the Official Note of

19     the 2nd of November.  You said it was about a unit of -- in English

20     Kasarik's [sic] unit, Milenko Kasarik's unit, and then you referred to

21     your original and then you said in the original it says Kasarika.  Would

22     it be possible that Milenka Kasarika is the genitive case for

23     Milenko Kasarik?

24             So you suggested there was something not correct, not accurate,

25     in the translation, because you said in the original it refers to

Page 14010

 1     Kasarika, and I am just asking myself whether there was any inaccuracy or

 2     whether you were reading in the original the genitive case, which, of

 3     course, is translated into English as "Kasarik's".

 4             MR. JORDASH:  To be honest, I don't know the answer to that.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you made a comment on the difference so,

 6     therefore, I would expect you to have thought about it.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I think there is no dispute that this man

 8     [Overlapping speakers] ...

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps we can ask the interpreters is

10     "Milenka Kasarika" the genitive case of what is translated as

11     "Kasarik's".  And I'm listening to the English channel at this moment.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Your Honours, we're normally not allowed to

13     pronounce such judgements off the cuff.  But it is.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I could ask you not about the original but

15     whether Milenka Kasarika is --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Genitive, yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  So therefore there seems to be no inaccuracy in

18     "Kasarik" or "Kasarika".

19             MR. JORDASH:  No, and I think there is no dispute that this is

20     Milenko Karisik, who is part of the Prosecution case.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Kasarik.

22             MR. JORDASH:  I've only ever seen it written Karisik.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I may have made a mistake there.  But at least we

24     don't have to further pay attention to the -- to the suggestion of there

25     being an inaccuracy.

Page 14011

 1             MR. JORDASH:  No.  And in the absence of the witness I can

 2     provide a little more context as to why I asked that question, if it will

 3     assist Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The only thing I was interested in your observation

 5     that the original says whether it is Kasarik or Karisika, but it was

 6     suggested there was an inaccuracy and appears to no [Overlapping

 7     speakers] ...

 8             MR. JORDASH: [Overlapping speakers] ...

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the only thing I wanted to deal with.

10             We take a break and we resume at five minutes to 11.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:

14             Mr. Jordash, before we continue, and, Mr. Novakovic, our

15     apologies for the two or three or four minutes we might need with another

16     matter.

17             The Chamber would like to, first of all, briefly deal with the

18     urgent Stanisic Defence motion for video-conference link.  We have

19     received a courtesy copy of the Prosecution's response.  Has that been

20     filed, meanwhile or ...?

21             MR. GROOME:  I believe it was filed last evening, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Last evening, okay.

23             Then we -- has the Simatovic Defence any response to this motion?

24             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, no, Your Honours.  We leave it

25     to the Trial Chamber's judgement and to the parties.  As far as we are

Page 14012

 1     concerned, we have nothing against the videolink.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the Chamber has considered, as we now know, all

 3     the submissions, because there is no Simatovic submission.

 4             The Chamber grants the request for the use of video-conference

 5     link to hear the evidence of Witness DST-052; reasons to follow.

 6             And, Mr. Jordash, the timing of this request was not perhaps the

 7     best, because you know exactly how much time it takes to prepare for a

 8     videolink conference, and, at the same time, the medical condition seems

 9     to be there already for quite a while.

10             MR. JORDASH:  The problem has been that despite all best

11     endeavours by our investigator to contact the witness, the witness was

12     constantly responding with, I'm ill, I can't deal with this at the

13     moment.  Which is why it is late.  But we do apologise.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because it may cause some additional problems.

15     That is also the reason why we deal with it now, at this very moment, so

16     that the Registry is informed without delay and that the preparations for

17     the videolink can start from now on.

18             Mr. Jordash, are you ready to continue with your

19     examination-in-chief?

20             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, please.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Novakovic, Mr. Jordash will have some further

22     questions for you.

23             MR. JORDASH:

24        Q.   I want to move very quickly through the last few subjects if I

25     can, Mr. Novakovic.

Page 14013

 1             Just to complete the issue of your stay in and around Batnoga,

 2     why did you leave the area?

 3        A.   During my stay in Batnoga, I was interested in information

 4     relevant to the deterioration of the interethnic situation in that area.

 5     I conducted a large number of interviews together with my colleagues from

 6     the Republic of Serbian Krajina relating primarily to the security

 7     situation, to the problems that increased security risks in that area.  I

 8     suppose that among that information there was also intelligence that was

 9     new to the leadership of the service in Belgrade, and I received

10     instructions to leave the area urgently the very next day because my life

11     is at risk.  I got that instruction through the service in the

12     Republic of Serbian Krajina; namely, that I and my two colleagues were to

13     return to Belgrade the very next day.

14        Q.   Was it communicated to you why or from whom your life was at

15     risk?

16        A.   No, I wasn't told that.  The way I understood it was that the

17     only reason could be my field-work.  To be honest my colleagues and

18     myself put in a lot of effort to -- into the daily reporting of the

19     events in the area.  You know, the area was a mixed area and what we saw

20     in the field among the population of the Republic of Serbian Krajina and

21     the Autonomous Province of Western Bosnia, the two groups had years long

22     ties.  They had developed all sort of relationships and there were

23     additional activities that compounded the risk, like smuggling and other

24     things.  Whenever I went to the supply point, either me or my colleague,

25     I informed my superiors in Belgrade about that.  I don't know whether

Page 14014

 1     that increased the risk of my stay.  In any case, the order was that I

 2     should urgently return to Belgrade the following day, and I did that,

 3     both myself and my two colleagues did that.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5        A.   On the 15th of December, we returned.

 6        Q.   In May and -- or May or June of 1995, were you called upon by

 7     Jovica Stanisic to do anything?  To conduct any particular task?

 8        A.   In 1995?

 9        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

10        A.   Through the centre chief, I was informed that I should set out

11     for the mission that had been given to me by the chief of the service.  I

12     was supposed to go to the area of Visegrad, where I was supposed to take

13     part in dealing with the hostage crisis.  That was the situation that

14     prevailed around that time in the territory of Republika Srpska.

15        Q.   Did you speak to Stanisic directly; and what instructions were

16     given to you either directly or indirectly?

17        A.   I received instructions indirectly from the centre chief.  I was

18     to go on the mission and get in touch with the representatives of the

19     service of the Republika Srpska in Visegrad and they were supposed to

20     provide me with more information.  Until the hostages were handed over, I

21     never saw or talked to Mr. Stanisic.

22        Q.   Who were the hostages?

23        A.   When I arrived in the territory of Visegrad, I got in touch with

24     the representatives of the state security of the Republika Srpska.  We

25     were waiting for the hostages to arrive, and they were supposed to be

Page 14015

 1     brought by the Herzegovina Corps of the Republika Srpska.  According to

 2     what I saw, there were about 30 or 40 members there.  I don't know who

 3     they belonged to exactly, but most of them belonged to the Ukrainian

 4     contingent.  Some of them were Spaniards, i.e., belonging to the Spanish

 5     contingent of UNPROFOR.  And I'm not sure whether the rest were French.

 6     Talking from this time distance, it's hard to remember.

 7        Q.   Did you do anything in relation to the hostages?  What was your

 8     task?

 9        A.   My task was to take them over.  I had a bus with a driver from

10     the secretariat of the interior.  My task was to get in touch with the

11     representatives of the service of the Republika Srpska.  They were

12     supposed to hand -- mediated in the hand-over of the hostages from the

13     Army of Republika Srpska.  My duty was to put them on the bus and take

14     them across the territory of the Republika Srpska, up to Zvornik, i.e.,

15     up to the point where they would leave the territory of the

16     Republika Srpska and enter the territory of Serbia.  The situation in

17     Visegrad was not really normal.  People in uniforms had been brought to

18     Visegrad and we could see that they belonged to the various contingents

19     of UNPROFOR, that they were of different ethnicities.  And they told me,

20     "They're yours, take them."  And I said, "I can't do that.  I have to

21     make a list.  How can I take over the people without their names?"  And I

22     remember that there the situation was very tricky and the name of the

23     place was Butkova Stijena.  I took over the group of hostages, and every

24     member of the hostage group entered the bus and I read out their names.

25     I put their names on -- on a separate list, and finally, the

Page 14016

 1     representative of the Herzegovina Corps of the Army of Republika Srpska

 2     signed the list confirming that those, indeed, were the men in question.

 3     I put them on the bus.  Together with us was a representative of the

 4     state security of the Republika Srpska and a member of --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the witness notification for this -- for

 7     Mr. Novakovic indicates that he testified to the role of transport of

 8     hostages from Zvornik not Visegrad to Novi Sad.  There's a lot of details

 9     that are now coming into the record.  We -- if it's being offered like

10     this at this time now apparently he wasn't in Zvornik, he was in

11     Visegrad, we ask for a substantial foundation as to the individuals that

12     he is meeting with, when did this happen.  Right now he is testifying

13     generally about a bunch of different things, meetings, transport of

14     people.

15             So we're objecting to the foundation at this time.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I think they went from Visegrad to Zvornik and then

17     left the -- so, at least Zvornik appears.

18             But, Mr. Jordash, if could you shed some additional light on it,

19     then it might assist Mr. Weber in understanding the evidence a bit

20     better.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

22        Q.   Which route did you take with the hostages from Visegrad?  Where

23     did you take them to --

24             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, Mr. Weber is on his feet.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think, first of all, let me see ...

Page 14017

 1             When was it?  Who were they; that's the first question.  Because

 2     we're talking about hostages.

 3             MR. JORDASH:

 4        Q.   When did you attend Visegrad?

 5        A.   It could have been either the 1st or the 2nd of June, as far as I

 6     can remember, I -- I mean.  I believe it was the 2nd of June.  I really

 7     can't remember the exact date after such a long time.

 8        Q.   Fair enough.  And --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And we are talking about the hostage crisis.  Who

10     were the hostages?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember, after

12     such a long time, I took over hostages who were nationals of Ukraine.  I

13     believe that there were also Spaniards and French, and the whole group

14     comprised about 30 or 40 men.  It was a long time ago.  It's very

15     difficult.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I think this identifies sufficiently; we have all

17     heard about a hostage crisis before and taking over of hostages and we

18     have heard about the role that Mr. Stanisic may have played and

19     apparently the questions and the answers are about that same event.

20             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, thank you.  That is appreciated.

21     However, this witness was testifying actually to particular arrival and

22     meetings with particular officials of Republika Srpska once he got to

23     Visegrad.  If we could have some foundation as to those.

24             MR. JORDASH:  I'm not really sure what my learned friend wants in

25     terms of foundation.

Page 14018

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's -- let's -- if --

 2             Mr. Weber, if you have any additional questions there you can

 3     raise the matter in cross-examination.

 4             Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

 5             MR. JORDASH:

 6        Q.   Did you take the hostages from Visegrad; and, if you did, where

 7     did you go?

 8        A.   I took the hostages over from Visegrad and the route we took led

 9     through the territory of the Republika Srpska up to Zvornik.  There is a

10     border crossing there, I don't know whether it was Karakaj or Sepak; in

11     any case, we crossed a bridge there, and in the territory of the Serbia

12     the then-chief of service, Mr. Jovica Stanisic, and Franko Simatovic

13     waited for us.  I believe that Mr. Vlado Dragicevic was also there and

14     there was some security detail.  I can't give you the exact time but I

15     remember that on the bridge where we took -- brought the hostages,

16     Mr. Stanisic held a press conference because there was a huge number of

17     journalists there.  I don't remember the exact date.  It was a long time

18     ago.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. JORDASH:  May we go into private session, please.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14019











11 Pages 14019-14035 redacted. Private session.















Page 14036

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

20             MR. JORDASH:

21        Q.   Just, finally, Mr. Witness, just returning to 1995 and the issue

22     of protection of Muslims in Uzice region.  Following the massacres in

23     Srebrenica, was there any issue which arose as a result of Muslims

24     fleeing those events?

25        A.   In the area of the Uzice centre in that period, there was a large

Page 14037

 1     influx of population from the area of Zepa to the area of the Uzice

 2     centre.  I cannot recall the exact time-frame.  I think it could be

 3     August.

 4        Q.   Did any military Muslim formation cross over into Uzice territory

 5     at that time?

 6        A.   I think the entire 7 Assault Brigade crossed over in the area of

 7     Jagostica and the other part in the Drina valley.  And they were escorted

 8     by the Army of Yugoslavia and taken deeper in Serbia, in the area of

 9     Jagosko Polje.

10        Q.   Did that have anything to do with the DB?

11        A.   In that period, the service monitored those movements.  Of

12     course, it knew that they were taken in and escorted by the army and the

13     MUP to Vranesko Polje.

14        Q.   Escorted by the army and the MUP.  Were they -- last question,

15     Mr. Novakovic.  Were they treated well, this Muslim formation, this

16     military formation of the 7th Assault Brigade when they fled the events

17     and entered Serbia?

18        A.   Absolutely.  They were treated in keeping with international law.

19     I believe the ICRC was present from the start.  They were touring that

20     area.  And, later on, representatives of the BH government came to visit.

21     Those people were asked who wanted to go where, and very few of them

22     wanted to return to Bosnia.  Most of them wanted to go to third

23     countries.

24        Q.   And did the DB monitor that?

25        A.   The DB was able to monitor from the moment when the refugee

Page 14038

 1     centre was established.  But I believe there was a team from the public

 2     security sector there, and the DB people joined in, sort of, because of

 3     the presence of such a large number of people on the ground.  But the

 4     admission process and the escorting was handled by the MUP mainly,

 5     because the border unit of the army escorted them only to Vranesko Polje.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you for your patience, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Novakovic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jordash.

10             Mr. Petrovic, would it be you who will cross-examine the witness.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you give us a time estimate.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I think I will need about 30

14     minutes.  Looking at the clock, I think we're close to the break so I

15     think perhaps it's better to go to the break first and then begin with my

16     cross-examination.  But, in any case, I'm ready, whenever you say.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm looking at you, Mr. Jordash, and I'm also

18     looking at Mr. Stanisic.  If we take the break now, then we would have --

19     yes, then we would have approximately 75 minutes left.  Perhaps that's

20     the better idea.

21             Mr. Weber, could you give us an indication for scheduling

22     purposes on how much time you would need?

23             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, based on a lot of things that

24     accumulated during the examination, it will be a rough estimate at this

25     stage.  High side, four hours; low side, three hours, would be our

Page 14039

 1     estimate.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then ...

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We will take the break now.

 5             And you can start your cross-examination, Mr. Petrovic, after the

 6     break.

 7             We resume at 25 minutes to 1.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 12.08 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 12.40 p.m.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Novakovic, you will now be cross-examined by

11     Mr. Petrovic.  Mr. Petrovic is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.

12             Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, I would like to briefly address

15     Mr. Jordash.

16             Mr. Jordash, if you want to have a videolink, you have to give a

17     date.  I mean, we can't ask the Registry to prepare a videolink without

18     knowing the scheduled date and you have to arrange with the other

19     witnesses the way you deem appropriate.  But we can't just say somewhere

20     in the next two weeks.

21             MR. JORDASH:  I'm not really following why --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You asked for a videolink.

23             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That means someone has to be available at --

25     the premises have to be there.  Everything has to be prepared.  We need a

Page 14040

 1     date.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  No, I -- I hadn't realized that we had got to the

 3     point where we had not given a date at a time when we ought to.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I was informed by the Registry that when the

 5     Stanisic Defence were asked for date that they didn't get an answer.

 6             Okay.  Please.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  [Overlapping speakers] ...  if that is true, then I

 8     apologise and I'll remedy that immediately.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, without delay.

10             Mr. Petrovic, sorry to interrupt you, but videolinks are always

11     urgent.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, I fully

14     appreciate that.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Novakovic.  I have a few

17     questions for you with regard to your evidence given so far.

18             First of all, I would like to follow up on the last subject that

19     you discussed and that was the 7th Brigade and its exit from Zepa.  Do

20     you know if there were pressures on the part of the -- the Army of the

21     Republika Srpska for those people who had crossed over to Serbia to

22     return to Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23        A.   The pressure of the Army of Republika Srpska?

24        Q.   The Army of the Republika Srpska or some other bodies of the

25     Republika Srpska.

Page 14041

 1        A.   No, there were no pressures.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Witness, sir --

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, we have

 4     a problem with the interpretation.  Page 61, line 13.  With your leave I

 5     can repeat the question.

 6        Q.   Do you know if there were any pressures on the part of the Army

 7     of the Republika Srpska or some other bodies of the Republika Srpska?

 8        A.   I'm not aware of any such pressures.  I don't know.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  The answer is the same that you provided a minute ago

10     but that was not recorded nicely in the transcript.

11             And could you please look at D156.  I would like to call up the

12     document in e-court on the screen.

13             Witness, this is a very short document, only one page long.

14     Could you please look at it and then I will have a couple of questions

15     concerning that document.

16             Witness, sir, are you ready for my questions?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   First of all, under 1 in this document, some features and towns

19     are mentioned in the valley of the Drina river.  Can you just confirm for

20     us that all the towns and facilities and features are on both banks of

21     the Drina River which means both on the Bosnian and the Serbian sides of

22     the river.  Is that correct?

23        A.   Yes, it is.

24        Q.   Do you know if it is correct that in 1992 and later on the JNA

25     firstly and then the Army of Yugoslavia provided security in the course

Page 14042

 1     of the Drina river bordering on Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 2        A.   Absolutely.

 3        Q.   Do you know which troops were used to do that at the beginning

 4     while the JNA still existed and, later on, when the security border --

 5     border security was maintained by the Army of Yugoslavia?

 6        A.   I don't know.  I know that there was a border unit of the army,

 7     especially at the beginning, they provided security for the Perucac dam

 8     above Bajina Basta.

 9        Q.   Very well.  Witness, did it come a time when the territory of the

10     Republic of Serbia was immediately and directly threatened by combat

11     activities from the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

12        A.   It was directly threatened from the territory of Skelani.

13             When the attack on the bridge between Skelani and Bajina Basta

14     was launched, and when shelling started and when shells started reaching

15     the town itself.  I believe that a few people even got killed on the

16     bridge itself.

17        Q.   Do you know if the shells from the Muslim positions fell on the

18     town of Bajina Basta?

19        A.   Yes, I know that.  I can't remember the exact date, but I believe

20     that that was at the moment when the offensive in Skelani was launched in

21     the direction of the bridge in Bajina Basta.

22        Q.   Was that in January 1993 or, rather, in early 1993?

23        A.   It is possible.  I believe that it was in early 1993 or

24     thereabouts.

25        Q.   Do you remember whether on that occasion in Bajina Basta and in

Page 14043

 1     the relevant area there were visits by the president of the government

 2     and the Ministry of Interior because of the situation?

 3        A.   Yes, I remember that.  After the shelling of Bajina Basta and the

 4     attack on the bridge in Skelani.  The minister of the interior and the

 5     prime minister arrived there.

 6        Q.   And the situation in the territory of Skelani and Bajina Basta

 7     was that something of special interest to you and your service?

 8        A.   Absolutely.  That was a direct threat on the territory which was

 9     within the catchment area of our centre and I believe that the leadership

10     of the service was informed about the situation on the ground.  A

11     document that we saw a while ago speaks about the activities on the

12     bridge and the spillover of the front line onto our territory.

13        Q.   Did you, at that moment, reinforce the presence of your

14     operatives in the territory of Bajina Basta in the general area at the

15     moment when these events were taking place?

16        A.   Yes precisely.  That happened.  A few employees went to assist on

17     the territory.  They came from the centre.

18        Q.   Sir, I have to ask you to make a pause between my question and

19     your answer, we speak the same language and the interpreters are finding

20     it very difficult to interpret everything.  If I keep silent that doesn't

21     mean that I'm waiting for you to expand on your answer, I'm just waiting

22     for the interpretation to be over so that I can start putting my next

23     question to you.

24        A.   I apologise.

25        Q.   Do you know the name of the employees who were sent to

Page 14044

 1     Bajina Basta.  If you do, we will move into private session so can you

 2     tell us.

 3             Just tell us if you know.

 4        A.   In that period, I know from our territory an operative officer

 5     from Arilje went there, and one operative officer from the centre in

 6     Uzice.

 7        Q.   Do you know the names?

 8        A.   I know one name.  I'm trying to recollect the other.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we move briefly

10     into private session.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 14045

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4        Q.   Witness, we spoke yesterday about the hydro power plant in

 5     Perucac.  Can you tell us, if you know, in terms of ownership to whom

 6     does this hydro power plant belong?  Is it a joint ownership between

 7     Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, do you know?

 8        A.   I know it is Serbia's, but the building itself is on the border

 9     between Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10        Q.   It doesn't matter.  But do you know about the transformer of that

11     plant.  On which side of the Drina river is it?

12        A.   You mean the distribution plant.  It's on the territory of

13     Serbia.  It is in a place called Beserovina and it is serving most of

14     Serbia's territory.

15        Q.   Witness, did you have any evaluation of the security risk to this

16     installation and the dam itself.  How did you assess the security

17     situation around the hydro power plant?

18        A.   The DB centre in Uzice, and there is a document about it, had

19     information that the bridge nearby and the plant in Beserovina would be

20     bombed.  We even knew from where exactly on the territory of Bosnia and

21     Herzegovina it was going to be targeted.  And then the army got the

22     assignment to defend the dam as well as the distribution plant within the

23     territory of Serbia.

24        Q.   If you know, can you tell us where were those artillery weapons

25     located.  You were mentioning a location somewhere in Bosnia and

Page 14046

 1     Herzegovina from which this dam was threatened.  Where is it?

 2        A.   I think it is in the area of Skelani, and I believe the document

 3     specifies the exact location.  We can look at the document if you wish.

 4        Q.   Do you mean the document where you provided your comments?

 5        A.   Yes, yes.

 6        Q.   If you could assist us, tell us which document you mean exactly?

 7        A.   Number 7 in this binder.

 8             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we have shown

 9     1D5065, please.

10        Q.   Witness, is that the document?

11        A.   That's the document.  I believe it's page 2.

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we turn the page, please.

13     Thank you.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here, in the second paragraph, you

15     can see the exact... oh.

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Witness, do you mean the gun that disappeared from Potocari,

18     moved to Skelani?

19        A.   Yes, hidden on the property of the Memici brothers.

20        Q.   And from that location, one could directly target both

21     Bajina Basta and the hydro power plant.

22        A.   Mainly the distribution facility.  That was their target in

23     Beserovina.

24        Q.   You said a moment ago, Witness, that the army intervened

25     eventually in the situation in the Skelani in 1992.  Do you know who and

Page 14047

 1     how?

 2        A.   If you turn to page 3, you will see that the army was involved in

 3     defending the hydro power plant in Bajina Basta.

 4        Q.   Let's leave the document aside.  Just try to answer my question

 5     to the best of your recollection.

 6        A.   As far as I remember, the army was engaged to protect the dam

 7     specifically that was on the border itself, and it was threatened by the

 8     constant exchange of fire.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Witness.

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at P599.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  This is a confidential document.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, not to be shown to the public.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document

14     not be broadcast, please.

15        Q.   Could you look at the witness -- at the document on the screen,

16     Witness.

17             If you are done with the first page, we can look at the second

18     one.

19        A.   I have.

20        Q.   Can we show the witness the second page.

21             Please only look at the signature.  We don't need to read the

22     whole document, not to waste time.

23        A.   Yes, I can see it.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Could we go to page 1 again so I can ask you about

25     two allegations from that page.  The document was signed by the Chief of

Page 14048

 1     General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, Zivota Panic, but I'm interested

 2     in only paragraph 2 that reflects the situation on the ground, the

 3     opening of fire, the throwing of explosive devices on privately owned

 4     buildings, et cetera.

 5             Just confirm, please, what is stated in this document, is it

 6     consistent or not with your knowledge about the situation on the ground

 7     at the time when the document was written in August 1992.

 8        A.   Yes, that's consistent completely with the information available

 9     to the service about the situation in that area.

10        Q.   One more thing:  You mentioned today the setting up of MUP

11     staffs.  We see that an order is given here to set up MUP staffs and the

12     organs responsible for their establishment are the ministries of

13     republics.  The staff in Prijepolje, is it consistent with this?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Do you know -- you know there was a staff in Prijepolje.  Do you

16     know if there was a staff in Bajina Basta, for instance, or in other

17     areas at risk?

18        A.   I can't be sure now whether I remember or not.  There was one in

19     Bajina Basta, but I remember about Prijepolje because of Sjeverin, Strpci

20     and that situation there.

21        Q.   Those staffs were set up to monitor the situation on the ground.

22        A.   And to boost security.

23        Q.   And those staffs were formed as part of the public security

24     sector of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 14049

 1        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  I would now like to move to a new subject.

 2             You said yesterday that some political parties in the Republic of

 3     Serbia began to develop militant wings using volunteers who had just

 4     returned from wars or had done stints in various wars.  Which militant

 5     wings?

 6        A.   As far as I remember --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  There are too many

 8     microphones on.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer now?

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Yes, go on if the Trial Chamber allows.

13        A.   In the area of Priboj, we noticed specifically that the

14     Serbian Popular Defence is present with their paramilitary unit,

15     White Eagles that came and went from wars.  Then the party SPO had two

16     wings of Serbian Guards, also a paramilitary unit.  Then the

17     Serbian Chetnik Movement was a paramilitary unit that flirted both with

18     the SPO and the Serbian Radical Party.  That's what I remember about the

19     Serbian side in our area of these units of passing through our territory.

20        Q.   Witness, could you explain why the activities of these

21     paramilitary units were of interest to you and where exactly lay the

22     danger to the security of the Republic of Serbia?

23        A.   You know that militant wings and the arming of such units posed a

24     threat to Serbia in itself.  They went to wars and they came back with

25     weapons.  In the programmes and platforms of these political parties it

Page 14050

 1     was stated that what they could not achieve by parliamentary means they

 2     would do otherwise and that would create danger for peace within Serbia

 3     and that's why we needed to monitor the activities of those militant and

 4     the potential sources of new paramilitary units.

 5        Q.   In order to gather intelligence on these paramilitary units, you

 6     had to have sources able to provide such information; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Was it necessary for those sources to be inside, to be able to

 9     provide good information about the activities of these groups?

10        A.   That's the only way to get such information.

11        Q.   Can you explain to us the connection between such an inside

12     source and the operative who runs that source, the controller?

13        A.   It's perhaps important to emphasise that members of those

14     paramilitary units in our area were people from criminal gangs, people

15     bent on crime, people without fixed employment, which made it possible

16     for them to go frequently to wars.

17             Our operative could approach such a person in their own

18     environment, so we monitored the activities of those people in our own

19     area among the people who did not hide their affiliations to paramilitary

20     formations.  At that time national passion was running high, especially

21     among those people who were members of paramilitary units although their

22     activities ran mainly in another direction.

23        Q.   I'm interested in the relationship of your service with such

24     people.  So you needed people who were either part of those units or very

25     close to those units?

Page 14051

 1        A.   Exactly.  Because only in that way could we get good information

 2     from the source.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Witness.

 4             I would like to ask you now about your stay in the

 5     Republic of Serbian Krajina, a few points.

 6             You told us earlier today what you were interested in.  Could we

 7     just clarify your relationship with the State Security Service of the

 8     Republic of Serbian Krajina.  Was your relationship with them one of

 9     subordination, of co-operation, of something else?

10        A.   It was a relationship of collaboration, joint work on improving

11     the security situation in the area of the RSK.  It was not one of

12     subordination.

13        Q.   What does this co-operation imply, in terms of information

14     procured by members of one or another service?

15        A.   We worked jointly.  Throughout my stay in the RSK, we worked

16     together with members of the RSK service.  We shared information about

17     the assignments we had accomplished, and we reported primarily to the

18     centre of -- of the RSK service.

19        Q.   Witness, were you interested in the smuggling channels that

20     existed in the territory of the northern part of the

21     Republic of Serbian Krajina?

22        A.   Of course, when we talked to the refugees in the refugee camp, we

23     always asked them there was any smuggling going on in that area, the

24     smuggling of all sorts of goods.

25        Q.   Did you learn something about the possible smuggling?

Page 14052

 1        A.   Yes.  And we reported on that, regularly.

 2        Q.   Witness, you mentioned earlier today the significance of those

 3     people who would come to the camp and leave on a daily basis.  How did

 4     that reflect on the overall security situation in that part of the

 5     Republic of Serbian Krajina?

 6        A.   Well, let me tell you -- or let me put it this way.

 7             For example, five people leave the camp one day and -- and two

 8     days later, two of them return, which means that they were very well

 9     informed about the security situation in the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

10        Q.   Did the same danger exist in -- with regard to the units of the

11     Army of Republika Srpska?  Was their loyalty jeopardized?  Was there a

12     possibility that any of the troops could shift over to the ranks of the

13     5th Corps?  Was there an imminent danger of that?

14        A.   Yes, there was such a danger.  AP Western Bosnia was the official

15     army, and the troops would defect from there and join the 5th Corps.

16     That was a security threat because they had a state in the territory of

17     the Republic of Serbian Krajina together with other refugees.

18        Q.   Witness, in intelligence sense were you also interested in

19     Fikret Abdic and his entourage?  Did you gather intelligence about that?

20        A.   I was a member of the state security of Serbia and I spent

21     sometime in the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  I could see for myself that

22     Fikret Abdic and his colleagues had contacts with the representatives of

23     Croatia and the Federation, that they participated in trade negotiations

24     and other types of negotiations.  I monitored those activities as well.

25        Q.   Did you also gather intelligence about the activities of the

Page 14053

 1     Croatian forces in view of the location of the refugee camps and that

 2     part of the Republic of Serbian Krajina in general terms?

 3        A.   Where I was, the contacts with the Croatian side were fewer and

 4     further between, unlike in Turanj.  But in any case, we did collect

 5     intelligence with regard to Croatia.

 6        Q.   What kind of intelligence did you collect?  What did you find

 7     interesting as an intelligence officer?

 8        A.   Occasionally, people from Batnoga moved to Turanj and some of

 9     them even moved to Croatia and we found that interesting as a potential

10     source of information on something that could pose a security threat for

11     the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

12        Q.   Witness --

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we move

14     briefly into private session.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

16             Mr. Petrovic, I would like to inform you that the -- all three

17     Judges have lost more or less -- are lost more or less in terms of what

18     the relevance of all these details are.

19     [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I'll try

24     and focus on something that I believe will be relevant and I can also

25     explain the relevance of my questions so far, if you think that that

Page 14054

1     should be necessary.  If not, I can leave it for a later stage.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  If you can do it in one line, it would be

 3     appreciated.  Otherwise, save it for a -- another day.

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness was an

 5     intelligence officer.  I would like to find out what kind of intelligence

 6     he gathered and what was the subject of interest of the service that

 7     dispatched him to the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  What was the essence

 8     of his work.  That was the information that I tried to elicit from him

 9     because it is of some interest for my client.

10             However, I shall drop that and move onto another topic.

11             Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Witness, do you know whether a communications centre was located

13     in Petrova Gora?  Do you know anything about that?

14        A.   Yes, there was a communications centre at Petrova Gora.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be

16     shown --

17        Q.   Do you know who Ranko Tadic is?

18        A.   The name does ring a bell, but I never met him.

19        Q.   Do you know what he did, what he was responsible for?

20        A.   I believe that he had something to do with the communications

21     centre and maintaining communication.

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please look

23     at 65 ter 4983.1, page 8.

24        Q.   Witness, could you please look at the list of names and tell us

25     whether you recognise any of the names besides the name of Ranko Tadic;

Page 14055

 1     and also if you know any of them, could you tell us what they did.

 2        A.   I believe that I recognise the name of Nikola Varda.  And I

 3     believe that he was an electronic surveillance and reconnaissance and

 4     communications, and he worked at the communications centre himself.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, while we're still in

 7     private session, could you please tell us whether you know anything about

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14056











11 Page 14056 redacted. Private session.















Page 14057

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 14058

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation].

 4        Q.   Witness, you told us about the intelligence work and you said

 5     that you were a member of the administration -- of the intelligence

 6     administration as of November 1995, if I'm not mistaken.  How did you

 7     gather intelligence?  You testified about interviews with sources,

 8     associates and so on and so forth.  What was the significance of

 9     intelligence gathering by way of other means, primarily technical means.

10     Can you explain briefly?

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Petrovic switch his microphone off.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In our service, we valued a live

13     source the most.  However, during the war, we also obtained a lot of

14     intelligence by technical means, and that was also a valuable source of

15     intelligence for us, although we were not well equipped, due to the great

16     effort of the 2nd Administration, we engaged in some offensives, and we

17     managed to have a lot of breakthroughs in the territory of the former

18     Yugoslavia.  That was a large contribution when it comes to the reporting

19     to the leadership of our service and the leadership of the state.  I'm

20     talking about the electronic surveillance.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

23     questions for this witness.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Novakovic.

25        A.   Thank you.

Page 14059

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

 2             Mr. Weber, are you ready to cross-examine the witness.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Novakovic, you will now be cross-examined by

 5     Mr. Weber.  Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:

 9        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Novakovic.

10        A.   Good afternoon.

11        Q.   When did you first meet with members of the Defence to discuss

12     your testimony in this case?

13        A.   The first time I met them in the month of March this year.  I met

14     them in Belgrade, some members of the team.

15        Q.   On how many occasions have you met with the Defence to discuss

16     your testimony?

17        A.   Three times, I believe.  The last time I met them immediately

18     before my arrival here.

19        Q.   Could you please tell us when these occasions were after

20     March 2011?

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly switch off your microphone, Mr. Weber.

22     Thank you.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that in March, I had

24     those meetings, but I don't know when.  I don't know on which dates.  The

25     last time was very recently, immediately before my arrival here.

Page 14060

 1             MR. WEBER:

 2        Q.   Who was present during these meetings?

 3        A.   Those who were present were Tatjana Cmeric, Tatjana Zafirovic,

 4     and Mr. --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  And the interpreter didn't hear the last name.

 6             MR. WEBER:

 7        Q.   Could you please repeat the last name?

 8        A.   Mr. Wayne Jordash.

 9        Q.   Did you see, or were Jovica Stanisic or Franko Simatovic present

10     during any of these occasions?

11        A.   No, never.

12        Q.   During these meetings with the Defence, did you discuss the

13     testimony which you have presented this week?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Were you shown documents that you have commented on during your

16     testimony in this case?

17        A.   Yes.  I was shown most of the documents.  And as for the rest of

18     the documents in the binder, I saw them when I arrived here in The Hague.

19        Q.   To understand your answer clearly, were you shown documents that

20     are in that comment chart prior to your arrival in The Hague?

21        A.   Some of them I did.  The rest I saw here.  And I believe that in

22     my comments accompanying the documents can also tell you exactly which of

23     the documents I only saw here, when I arrived in The Hague.

24        Q.   So when you said "the first time that I saw a document," that

25     corresponds to you seeing for the first time here in The Hague; is that

Page 14061

 1     correct?

 2        A.   In the team.

 3        Q.   Based on the rather specific questions that have been asked to

 4     you today, is it correct that the Defence took notes of what you told

 5     them during these meetings?

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat.

 7             MR. WEBER:

 8        Q.   Sir, if you could please repeat your answer.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Were these notes kept in typewritten form?  In other words, was

11     the Defence typing as you spoke?

12        A.   I believe so that, yes, notes were kept.  I believe so.

13        Q.   Sir, I see that you have with you here today and you have brought

14     into the courtroom a folder.  And I can see from here that, as part this

15     folder, the contents contain handwritten notes.  Are those your personal

16     handwritten notes?

17        A.   This is just a piece of paper, some notes that I took yesterday

18     and continued taking them today just to be able to focus on your

19     question.  I have a decision of the government with the topics that I can

20     discuss, and I have this binder with the documents, and that's all.

21        Q.   Would you be willing to provide that spiral notebook with the

22     handwritten notes and that decision from the government to the Court

23     Usher in order for it to be distributed to the parties?

24             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, if the Registry could actually take

25     possession of the spiral binder.

Page 14062

 1             MR. JORDASH: [Overlapping speakers] ... Before that happens --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  -- I think it would be appropriate for my learned

 4     friend to explain why that should take place and what the relevance is.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Throughout the testimony here today I have watched

 7     the witness repeatedly look at these notes while he's answering

 8     questions.  There is clearly information on them and he has been

 9     consulting them throughout his course of his testimony.  We would like to

10     know what's in front of the witness while he's testifying.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness explained, I think, that he made these

12     notes.

13             Could I -- I can't read it.  How many notes is that?  That one

14     page, half a page, ten pages?  Just on the first page of that.  And did

15     you make those notes in court here or in between during the breaks?  When

16     did you make these notes, just one page?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When somebody asks me questions, I

18     just made a note of the topics.  You're free to take a look.  It is no

19     secret.

20             And this is the decision of the government relieving me of

21     keeping the state secret.

22             MR. JORDASH: [Previous translation continues] ... can I indicate

23     I have no objection.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the waiver from the

25     government.

Page 14063

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, the -- looking at the kind of notes and

 3     the explanation of the witness, the Chamber considers that the witness is

 4     not under any obligation to give those notes to you at this moment.

 5     That's one.

 6             Second, if the decision of the government would not be otherwise

 7     available to you, then, of course, the witness is willing to give it,

 8     then -- but I do not know.  I take it that that's the kind of decisions

 9     that we've seen before.  There are no protective measures.  The witness

10     has not, on any subject matter, invoked any duty not to answer the -- the

11     questions.

12             That is -- so if you really need that decision, then,

13     Mr. Jordash --

14             MR. JORDASH:  Could I just -- two things very briefly.

15             One, just for the record, we don't accept that the witness was

16     consulting these notes on a constant basis.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, whatever it is, the ruling of the chamber is

18     clear.  The witness is not under any obligation to give these notes, in

19     view of his explanation.

20             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             And secondly, that we don't, if the witness wants to, we don't

22     object to those notes being shown to Your Honours or the parties.  It is

23     just so that the record is clear on that issue.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At the same time, of course, if you write down

25     what the subject matter of the question is, then consulting the note

Page 14064

 1     would mean that you tried to remind yourself of what was asked.

 2             MR. JORDASH: [Overlapping speakers] ... Exactly.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  So that to extent, it would not be very useful to

 4     make these notes and not consulting them but only for this very limited

 5     purpose.

 6             Mr. Weber, do you insist on the decision of the government to be

 7     handed out to you at this moment by the witness, or at least would you --

 8     do you have no other way of --

 9             MR. WEBER:  With respect to the printed decision there's no

10     problem with that.  But the witness has been writing today during his

11     testimony.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  There's a ruling on that.

13             MR. WEBER:  We would like the notes.  The decision is -- okay.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness is not under any obligation to give the

15     notes.

16             If you want to give them, Mr. Novakovic, you're free to do so.

17     But the Chamber is not insisting on you giving the notes you made to

18     Mr. Weber.  If you say, let him have a look at it, then please feel free

19     to provide them to Mr. Weber.

20             What's your decision?  To give them?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only thing that I have here is,

22     for example, when I entered the court, when I left the court, when the

23     breaks were.  These are my notes, nothing else.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Fine.  If you say I'll give them to Mr. Weber, they

25     will be presented to him.  They will be copied.  And if you say, I'm not

Page 14065

 1     inclined to do it, then you leave it.  If you even torn it from the --

 2             Could the usher assist Mr. Novakovic in handing out the notes to

 3     Mr. Weber.

 4             Mr. Weber, will I take it that you will make a photocopy and ...

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution makes a motion to compel production

 7     of the typewritten statements and any statements that have been taken by

 8     the Defence with respect to this witness.  We have been prejudiced in

 9     multiple ways due to the notice with respect to this witness.  The

10     witness has now clearly testified there were notes being taken, that he

11     did meet with the Defence on a number of occasions, that these notes were

12     being taken contemporaneously to him making statements.  So we ask for

13     immediate production, preferably within the next hour, of any statements

14     that were taken from this witness.

15             Further to that, the Prosecution would also reference our urgent

16     motion pursuant to Rule 67 of 21 June 2011 and our addendum filed on the

17     21st September 2011.  Prosecution submits that this is it yet another

18     example of a manner in which we are being prejudiced by the lack of

19     disclosure of statements from the Defence.  Urgent resolution of this

20     motion would be appreciated.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We're working hard on it at this moment, Mr. Weber.

22             Mr. Jordash, the request is to provide within one hour the

23     written notes written when interviewing the witness.

24             MR. JORDASH:  We oppose for the reasons that we've outlined in

25     the various -- in the two exchanges of pleadings, and, two, we would

Page 14066

 1     submit that the Prosecution have to do more than simply say, We have been

 2     prejudiced.  In the same way that when we sought to complain about lack

 3     of notice, we were requested to outline the precise prejudice such as

 4     loss of investigation opportunities and so on.  That is what is required

 5     at the very minimum before any cause of action arises, we would submit.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, throughout the testimony of this witness

 8     so far I have made a number of objections relating to the notice and the

 9     prejudice that we've suffered as a result which have included exactly

10     what Mr. Jordash has just said, the inability to investigate.  There's

11     been discussion of a rather significant meeting that occurred in

12     November 1994 that involved key persons which was clearly discussed

13     beforehand.  There's complete topics that this witness appears to have

14     discussed with the Defence well before his arrival in The Hague that we

15     knew nothing about that also involved documents that were in the

16     possession of the Defence, translated by the Defence back in April 2011,

17     which would correspond immediately to after when they met with this

18     witness and have not been provided to us until immediately prior to the

19     testimony of this witness.

20             We're being served with a comment chart on the eve, the very eve

21     of the testimony of the witness, and on top of it, this witness has

22     failed to mention Operation Thompson whatsoever, and we want to know what

23     he has to offer with regarding this.  It is the -- what is prominently

24     figures in the witness notice.  And we are being prejudiced at this time

25     by not having these statements for all the reasons outlined by

Page 14067

 1     Mr. Jordash and the additional reasons that I've just stated.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, before you respond, are those notes in

 3     your possession?

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.  If --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Are they typewritten, handwritten.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Typewritten.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you give us any indication about the number of

 8     pages, what are we talking about approximately.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Approximately, I think -- from memory I think about

10     10 to 15 pages.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Apart from how we further develop, you should

12     keep them at this moment.  Yes.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, certainly.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please -- you have an opportunity to further

15     respond.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I would respond only briefly, which is, if

17     the issue is that the Prosecution have been surprised by evidence, notes

18     which deal with those issues doesn't help them.  It doesn't deal with the

19     surprise.  It doesn't enable them any more so to go out into the field

20     and investigate.

21             It's an application which is simply a continuation of the

22     previous applications to get the notes, but hooked onto an issue which,

23     in reality, has got nothing to do with the notes.

24             My learned friend's application, if he has been genuinely

25     prejudiced, and we submit he hasn't, is to ask for time to investigate

Page 14068

 1     the new issues, which, as he indicates, have arisen in the courtroom not

 2     to ask for notes which corroborate or otherwise that new evidence.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will consider it.

 4             Mr. Weber, you asked for within one hour.

 5             I do understand that if the Chamber would decide that you're

 6     entitled to receive those notes, it should be done on short notice.

 7     That's clear.

 8             We'll consider the matter with priority.  But not within the next

 9     two minutes.  The two minutes you still have available to put additional

10     questions to the witness.

11             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour.  It's understood.  The Prosecution

12     would just like to add the one point that the significance of the notes

13     relates to much more than what Mr. Jordash said.  It relates to our

14     ability to be in a position to ascertain the truth and effectively

15     examine this witness as to his statements and any knowledge that he might

16     have --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, I thought there were two rounds of

18     arguments and that you were invited to put additional questions to the

19     witness and not to re-start the -- the debate.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, for clarity, can you confirm that you were

23     assigned to the 1st Administration of the Uzice sector of the

24     State Security Service between 1991 and 1995?

25        A.   I worked in the centre in Uzice from the 1st of February, 1997

Page 14069

 1     [as interpreted].  That's the administration for counter-intelligence.

 2     That was that line of work, the equivalent of it in the centre.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, I'm looking at the clock.  I know that

 4     two minutes was not much, but ...

 5             Mr. Novakovic, we'll adjourn for the day.  We'd like to see you

 6     back -- let me just check.  We'd like to see you back tomorrow, Thursday,

 7     the 6th of the October, at 9.00 in the morning.  I do instruct you hereby

 8     not to speak or communicate in any other way with whomever about your

 9     testimony, whether already given or still to be given.

10             If at all possible we would like to see whether we could finish

11     the testimony of this witness tomorrow.  I know that you were asking for

12     three to four hours and that not much was left today.  We're not

13     scheduled to sit on Friday.  If could you try to keep it at the lower

14     end, Mr. Weber, then we might achieve that.

15             At the same time, if you raise your eyebrows in this respect, I

16     can imagine, because the way in which the Stanisic Defence made its

17     estimates and its assessment about the time needed, quite a few

18     surprises, and the Chamber wouldn't want to make a standard that we

19     multiply everything with three if we get estimates.

20             We adjourn for the day.  We'll resume tomorrow, 6th of October,

21     9.00 in the morning, in this same courtroom, II.

22                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 6th day of

24                           October, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.