Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14637

 1                           Thursday, 20 October 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 10.52 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 6             THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated] Good afternoon,

 7     Your Honours.  This is case --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, I apologise.  Microphone is not working.

11             Good afternoon -- good morning, Your Honours.

12             This is case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic

13     and Franko Simatovic.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  The late start is not

15     that bad that it's already the afternoon, but nevertheless the Chamber

16     apologises for the late start which was due to the fact that the Plenary

17     of Judges which started well before 9.00 this morning took a bit more

18     time than expected.

19             Mr. Jordash, I was informed that there was a matter you would

20     like to raise.  If it can be done briefly, please do so.

21             MR. JORDASH:  It's just to bring Your Honours up to speed in

22     relation to DST-036, the next witness.  We haven't been able to have him

23     in for an interview with our investigator today.  We've put together the

24     notes that we had and tried to address the questions sent by Ms. Marcus.

25     We're going to send that any moment now.  And perhaps once the

Page 14638

 1     Prosecution have read that, we could revisit the issue.

 2             I should say this, that as far as we're aware, if he were to

 3     come, he would arrive sometime Saturday and we could begin proofing him

 4     sometime Sunday.  But I anticipate we wouldn't be able to get anything to

 5     the Prosecution until Monday, so that's the timetable as we see it at the

 6     moment.  But I guess to a degree it depends upon the Prosecution's view

 7     of the notes which we will send any moment.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and if someone arrives on Saturday and then to

 9     say that it's only until Monday, I mean, you changed the schedule at a

10     rather late stage, so I would, under those circumstances, even urge you

11     to see whether you could first focus on the specific questions and in one

12     way or another already to inform what you expect the statement of the

13     witness would be to the Prosecution.

14             Mr. Groome.

15             MR. GROOME:  We're just going to say that the Prosecution trust

16     that Mr. Jordash will use his best efforts and we will address

17     inadequacies as we -- they become known to us.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's not -- you understand that I'm trying

19     very much to see to what extent I can encourage the parties to avoid

20     losing time next week.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.  I mean, I will be candid with

22     the Court.  Our preference is, at the moment, not to go ahead next week

23     just because of the huge rush that this entails and the -- our concern

24     that we will make mistakes if we are rushed in relation to this witness

25     whose evidence is important for a variety of reasons, including

Page 14639

 1     character.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I'm aware of the risk of hurrying too much.  And

 3     I'm also concerned about the consequences of not hurrying enough.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  A balance should be found, that's clear.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  And may I put forward another possibility, if

 7     Your Honours do press us to continue, is that the possibility of sitting

 8     instead of Tuesday, to sit Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, just to give us

 9     an extra day and the Prosecution an extra day.  I put that before the

10     Court now just so Your Honours can consider that as a possibility.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Since I will not be in The Hague next week, I

12     think my colleagues have carefully listened to this, and I leave any

13     decision in this respect, also whether or not to sit 15 bis, in their

14     hands.  Thank you.  When you provide Mr. Groome on Monday with any

15     information, of course, you expect him not to observe the UN holiday on

16     Monday, but Mr. Groome has not complained yet.  That's one.

17             Mr. Groome, 2D899 has now been uploaded and is waiting for a

18     number to be assigned to it.  Does it need to be under seal?

19             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I could just have a second to check

20     my notes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Meanwhile, I already ask Madam Registrar to assign a

22     number.

23             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, 2899 [sic] does not need to be under

24     seal.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And the number would be, Madam Registrar ...


Page 14640

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be D460, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  And I think there was

 3     no objection against admission.

 4             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, D460 is admitted into evidence.  If

 6     there's no other matter, I'd like to move into closed session.

 7             [Closed session]  [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And may the witness be escorted into the courtroom

 9     and may counsel be invited to enter the courtroom as well.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  The transcript did read closed session, and we are

12     in ...

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in closed session, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  I should have waited

15     for your announcement.  The witness may take his seat.

16             Please be seated, Witness DST-040.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I would like to remind you that the solemn

19     declaration you gave at the beginning of your testimony the day before

20     yesterday is still binding upon you, that is, that you speak the truth,

21     the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22                           WITNESS:  DST-040 [Resumed]

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We will wait for your counsel to enter the

25     courtroom.


Page 14641

 1             Good morning, Mr. Cepic.  I reminded your client already that he

 2     is still bound by his solemn declaration.  And Mr. Groome will now

 3     continue his cross-examination.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5                      Cross-examination by Mr. Groome: [Continued]

 6        Q.   DST-040, when we broke yesterday, I was inquiring about the

 7     Pauk operation.  Before I return to that, I would like to clarify a few

 8     things related to your evidence yesterday.

 9             Yesterday at transcript reference 14626 you were telling us about

10     the memorial wall in the Rade Kostic Centre and you named a number of

11     people who were not in the unit but whose photographs adorned the wall.

12     Can I ask you to tell us the names of any of the people depicted on that

13     wall who you know to have been members of the unit.

14        A.   Sasa Jovanovic.  He was JSO assistant commander.  Next,

15     Leka [phoen] Veljko, a pilot.  Uros, I don't know his last name, he was a

16     member of the reserve.

17        Q.   Are those all that you can remember?

18        A.   I can't recall any other at this moment.

19        Q.   Sasa Jovanovic, do you know when he died?

20        A.   I think he died in Kosovo.

21        Q.   How about Uros?

22        A.   I don't know exactly.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you were not the first former member of the

24     State Security Service to testify here.  And others have explained to us

25     that the established practice of the service was for service members,

Page 14642

 1     when asked who they worked for, to simply say that they worked for the

 2     Serbian MUP.  Is that a practice that you yourself followed?

 3        A.   I was a member of the Serbian MUP until 1993.  As of 1993 I was

 4     with the MUP of Serbia as part of its state security department.  In 2000

 5     I was again a member of the MUP, but I was with the public security

 6     sector because the state security sector became independent at that point

 7     in time.

 8        Q.   During the period after 1993 when you were a member of the State

 9     Security Service, if you were in a social situation and someone asked you

10     who you worked for, would you say the Serbian MUP or would you say the

11     State Security Service of the Serbian MUP?

12        A.   Usually it was the MUP.  If a conversation went into any more

13     detail, then I would say something more.  But for the most part it would

14     simply be the MUP.  Members of the State Security Service did not always

15     introduce themselves as employees of the service unless they were

16     duty-bound to do so or if someone expressly requested that of them.

17   (redacted)

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Page 14643

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10        Q.   Now, if I may now return to the issue of the Pauk operation and

11     Exhibit 3024.

12             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that that be returned to our screen and

13     that we go to page 2 of the original and the translation.

14        Q.   Now, I want to direct your attention to the section 3 of this

15     report entitled "Laying an Ambush."  This section describes a joint

16     ambush operation with members of the JATD and SVK between

17     19 and 24 December 1994.

18             MR. GROOME:  That's P3024.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  I apologise, we are having some technical

20     problem, but it's coming.

21             MR. GROOME:  I have a hard -- oh, I'm sorry, it's up.  I see that

22     it's on the screen now.  I think we just need to move, advance the page,

23     of the original.  If we could move to the page 2 of the original.  It is

24     a section entitled "Laying an Ambush."  That is number 3.  And if we

25     could advance the English as well.

Page 14644

 1        Q.   Now, DST-040, I ask you to read this, and then ask you:  Is it

 2     correct to the best of your knowledge that the JATD in fact participated

 3     in co-ordinated combat operations with the SVK during Operation Pauk?

 4        A.   The JATD did have certain tasks as part of the Pauk operation in

 5     addition to the ones mentioned in the report.  However, I did not

 6     participate in the operative part or when the tasks were being issued.

 7     Based on this report, you can see that they were assigned certain tasks.

 8             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that we now go to page 3 in both the

 9     original and the translation.  If we could focus on section 6, "Conducted

10     Sniping Operations."

11        Q.   Again, DST-040, I would ask you to review this section, and ask

12     whether it agrees with your knowledge of the operation that members of

13     the special unit of the Serbian DB carried out sniping operations?

14        A.   I don't have that portion of the text before me.

15        Q.   I believe we're experiencing a technical problem.

16             MR. GROOME:  If it would facilitate matters, I do have a hard

17     copy in the language in the original.  And I also have a hard copy of an

18     English translation.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We can do it, it's just slower because the normal

20     process is not working.

21             MR. GROOME:  Okay.

22        Q.   If you let us know when you have read what's on the screen under

23     number 6, and then we'll advance to the next page which has the remainder

24     of that section.

25        A.   Could you please repeat your question so that I can be more

Page 14645

 1     precise in my answer.

 2        Q.   I'm going to ask you whether you -- it agrees with your knowledge

 3     that members of the unit in Operation Pauk were engaged in sniping

 4     operations.  And you only have a portion of the section I want you to

 5     read before you answer on the screen.

 6             So once you've read what you can see of section 6, let us know,

 7     and we'll advance the page so you can read the remainder of that section.

 8        A.   JATD members in Velika Kladusa and in the area of Petrova Gora

 9     were assigned similar tasks, I presume.  I was not present, but I suppose

10     that their activities also involved tasks of this nature.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. GROOME:  I'm finished with the document at this stage.

13   (redacted)

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Page 14646

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20             Could I ask that we return to P3024, that we go to the last page

21     of the document.

22        Q.   Now, DST-040, I would like to address the topic of Vaso Mijovic.

23     On the 18th of October, Mr. Jordash, at page 14500 of the transcript,

24     asked you the following question:  "Was Vaso Mijovic ever a member of the

25     permanent force of the JATD?"  Your answer was simply:  "No."

Page 14647

 1             Mr. Jordash went on to ask whether Mr. Mijovic was a member of

 2     the reserve force, to which you answered you had seen his name on lists

 3     from time to time but you did not know why.

 4             I want to ask you to look at the last page of P3024, a document

 5     using the letterhead of the JATD, and in this section of special

 6     equipment used under item 5, we see that Vaso Mijovic was issued a

 7     charger for his flash-light.  Does this refresh your recollection as to

 8     what Mr. Mijovic's relationship was to the special unit of the state

 9     security?

10        A.   Vaso Mijovic occasionally appeared on the list of the reserve

11     force.  I don't know exactly.  In order to remind myself, I would have to

12     have a look at his personnel file and his military file to see whether it

13     was carried to the defensive preparations department.  In any case, he

14     appeared on the reserve list occasionally and received per diems

15     accordingly.  I don't know for what reason though.  He was issued with

16     some equipment and attended training from time to time.

17        Q.   In an effort to refresh your recollection, I'm going to play a

18     short segment of a video that is in evidence as P355.  It is an interview

19     of Mr. Mijovic done in 1995.  An interview marking the occasion on which

20     young trainees are being presented with their rifles.

21             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that you now be shown a clip from it.

22     It is one hour, 17 minutes and 21 seconds to one hour, 19 minutes, and

23     48 seconds of P355.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Colonel, sir, they are young and

Page 14648

 1     they grew up the last four or five years in the Republic of Serbian

 2     Krajina.  They already know what their goals and tasks are, to defend the

 3     Serbian homeland.  What kind of message can you give to their parents?

 4             "Vasilije Mijovic:  I must say that their parents and fathers

 5     should be proud that they have sons who are ready to defend their

 6     homeland, that is, these territories.  They don't need to think much

 7     because all the commanders or, rather, instructors who are going into

 8     action if necessary, and it will be surely necessary, will be leading

 9     their platoons, detachments.  And I claim this with responsibility, that

10     during this time-period they will receive a training that will enable

11     them to put up adequate resistance to any kind of aggression.

12             "Journalist:  Colonel, sir, special units of the MUP of the

13     Republic of Serbian Krajina, the instructors who trained this young army

14     are battle-hardened fighters from 1990 and 1991 up till now.  What can

15     you say?  How will your units behave in case of an Ustasha aggression

16     against this territory?

17             "Vasilije Mijovic:  The special units of the RSK MUP take part in

18     all combat activities on the territories of the former Yugoslavia and

19     anywhere where it is necessary to defend the Serbian people.  We are

20     ready at every moment to wait for the Ustasha and show them how we defend

21     our own country, because we are defending our homes, we are defending our

22     land, and everybody knows that this country is Serbian holy land."

23        Q.   DST-040, now that you've seen this clip, does it refresh your

24     recollection as to the position Vaso Mijovic held in the special unit of

25     the State Security Service?

Page 14649

 1             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have neither seen or

 2     heard in this clip that a reference was made to the State Security

 3     Service.  In respect of the fact we are in cross-examination, I don't

 4     think that it is fair that the witness should be --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, your objection is denied.  As a matter

 6     of fact, the question was about the position of Vaso Mijovic in the

 7     special units of the State Security Service.  The only question is

 8     whether this video, whatever it said on it, whatever is seen on it,

 9     whether that refreshes the witness's memory, so therefore the objection

10     is without merit.

11             Please proceed.

12             Could you answer the question, whether the video has refreshed

13     your recollection as far as Mr. Mijovic is concerned?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vaso Mijovic was occasionally

15     engaged in the reserve force and he turned up on the lists of the reserve

16     force and the JATD.  That's what I've stated.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And the question is -  and I suggest that you

18     answer the question and not repeat what you said earlier:  Whether what

19     you've now seen on the video, whether that adds anything to your

20     recollection or refreshes any of your recollection in relation to

21     Mr. Mijovic?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His statement speaks about his

23     participation in the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  I don't know anything

24     about that.  I don't know who sent him there, on what conditions, whether

25     he went there of his own accord.  I don't know what units he was attached

Page 14650

 1     to.  I am not even aware of the period when this statement was issued,

 2     when this interview took place.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it was told to you it was 1995.  But, for

 4     example, on the basis of what he tells, does it add anything to your

 5     recollection as the kind of position he may have had within the

 6     State Security Service or in the JATD?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He had a position within the JATD.

 8     He was a member of the reserve force of the JATD, not of the active force

 9     of the JATD.

10             MR. GROOME:

11        Q.   Now, sir, you said that Mr. Mijovic would show up on per diem

12     lists from time to time.  Would this be the kind of task, that we see

13     here - he's obviously involved in some training and some supervision of

14     other people - would this be the type of task for which he would be

15     compensated through the per diem list which you would have seen him on?

16        A.   A person whose name appears on the per diem list, I don't know

17     where that person may be engaged, whether that person is at all engaged.

18     When a list is compiled, when a person is put on the list for a certain

19     period, that list is signed and sent for payment.  I don't know anything

20     about the operative composition and I don't know whether such a person

21     may be engaged or not and, if he is, what his assignment may be.

22        Q.   DST-040, let me play one more clip for you from this videotape.

23     It's from the same video and it shows a Croatian jeep that is captured by

24     Mr. Mijovic and his men.  I'd ask you to pay close attention to the

25     licence plate.

Page 14651

 1             MR. GROOME:  I would now ask that we play that clip, which is

 2     from one hour, 34 minutes to one hour, 34 minutes, and 30 seconds.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             MR. GROOME:

 5        Q.   Now, DST-040, you probably did not immediately recognise that

 6     licence plate, did you?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Let me see if I can refresh your recollection.  I'm going to show

 9     you a demonstrative exhibit, an exhibit that contains a still of the

10     licence plate in the video we have just seen, and from P162.  The second

11     still shows the display case in the Rade Kostic Centre at Kula containing

12     a number of licence plates.

13             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask now that 65 ter 6300 be played -- be

14     brought to our screens.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  While waiting for that, Mr. Groome, I noticed that

16     the last video you played, that we saw on our screen, as far as the times

17     is concerned was corresponding with what you told us.  However, for the

18     previous one there was no correspondence between what you told us and

19     what I saw on my screen.

20             MR. GROOME:  I will investigate that, Your Honour, and report

21     back.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

23             MR. GROOME:

24        Q.   As we can see from this exhibit, the licence plate from the

25     vehicle captured by Mr. Mijovic was then displayed in a display case in

Page 14652

 1     the Rade Kostic Centre.  Can you explain how it would be that this

 2     licence plate that he captured would be displayed in the Rade Kostic

 3     Centre?

 4        A.   The centre is also a museum.  It is a museum displaying equipment

 5     and things that were seized or captured or brought from various missions.

 6     I can see that this is the same licence plate that we saw in that

 7     video-clip.

 8        Q.   So do I understand your testimony that the items displayed in

 9     this museum part of the Rade Kostic Centre are artifacts that have been

10     obtained by members of the unit during the course of their actions?

11        A.   Yes.

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Page 14653











11 Pages 14653-14662 redacted. Closed session.
















Page 14663

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 9             Yesterday the witness had asked through his counsel Mr. Cepic

10     whether he could be provided with a copy of the legal documents that

11     Serbia had provided.  I undertook to speak with the Serbian

12     representative, and just to inform the witness that the representative

13     from Serbia says it would be inappropriate for me to provide Mr. Cepic

14     with a copy of those documents to in turn provide them to the witness, so

15     I will not be providing those.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. GROOME:  Just one final thing with respect to the time-codes,

18     Your Honour.  The time-codes that I stated on the record are correct with

19     respect to the entire exhibit.  There may be some problem with the

20     Sanction system, and I'll investigate that.  But the record is correct as

21     it stands.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that information.

23             Could we just consult with the Registry.

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll first take a break.


Page 14664

 1             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

 3             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] with your leave, to perhaps speed

 4     things up, I would kindly ask Mr. Groome to provide a binder with the

 5     per diems lists shown to him yesterday.  And I wanted to ask the witness

 6     to find Mr. Simatovic's initials on any of the lists over the break and

 7     then tell us afterwards.  Perhaps it's best for him to do that over the

 8     break to save time and then he can tell us where he finds Mr. Simatovic's

 9     initials.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, are you willing to make the --

11             MR. GROOME:  I'm willing to make it available, but I need to

12     check whether it has all the cover pages.  I'm not sure that -- this is

13     the -- we had just provided just a list of names, so -- but I will check

14     that, and he's welcome to have the binder.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So you'll see whether it's complete, and meanwhile

16     the witness has a look at the binder.  And you're invited,

17     Witness DST-040, to look at where you find initials of Mr. Simatovic on

18     the lists that are provided to you.

19             We'll take a break, and we resume at 12.35.

20             I'm a bit uncertain about how to further proceed today, that also

21     depends on how much time you would still need, to see exactly when to

22     take the breaks.  I'm also not familiar, where we usually are sitting

23     either in the morning or the afternoon, how arrangements are made for

24     lunch for the accused.  But as matters stand now we'll resume at

25     25 minutes to 1.00.


Page 14665

 1                           --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 12.38 p.m.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, are you ready to proceed?

 4             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I'd like to

 5     mention the following:  Yesterday in response to your question I said I

 6     would need 10 to 15 minutes; however, things developed somewhat

 7     differently today because, prompted by Mr. Groome's questions, I will now

 8     have to ask for an additional 15 minutes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And then that would not bring you into trouble,

10     Mr. Jordash?

11             MR. JORDASH:  I don't think so.  I think I'll be about the same

12     as I indicated yesterday.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And that was?

14             MR. JORDASH:  40 minutes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  40 minutes.  I think that should all fit within the

16     available time.

17             Mr. Bakrac, please proceed.

18             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14666











11 Pages 14666-14667 redacted. Closed session.
















Page 14668

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, let us go to

10     65 ter 2D897.  Page 6 in e-court.  Your Honour, it is a file that the

11     witness recognised as a file of the counter-intelligence organ of the

12     unit with regard to Milorad Tatic.  Sorry, page 6 in e-court.

13     ERN 0704-3379.  Could you rotate it, please.

14        Q.   Witness, you also discussed the principle that was followed when

15     checks were being carried out.  And in the document you signed, we saw

16     two documents where the checks were initialled by Mr. Simatovic.  This

17     was a check for Milorad Tatic which was sent to the 6th Administration,

18     the vetting document?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Do you see any of Mr. Simatovic's initials in this vetting

21     document?

22        A.   No.

23             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this document is being

24     translated as we speak.  The entire file will be made available.  Hence,

25     I'd kindly ask you to assign an MFI number to it unless Mr. Groome

Page 14669

 1     objects.  This is Tatic, Milorad's file which was disclosed to us by the

 2     Prosecution.

 3             MR. GROOME:  No objection, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, would you please assign a number to

 5     the document which will then be MFI'd.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be D461, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And keeps the status of being marked for

 8     identification.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   Witness, let's look at 2D896 next, the first and second pages in

12     e-court.

13             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, while we are waiting, I

14     wanted to tell you that it's another part or a part of another file

15     disclosed to us by the Prosecution for Miko Milic.  It is also being

16     translated.  And once that has come in, we'll seek to tender it.  Please

17     rotate and zoom in.

18        Q.   Witness, we could see in the last document that the vetting was

19     done through the 6th Administration.  This document refers to the vetting

20     carried out by the 2nd Administration for Miko Milic.

21             Do you see Franko Simatovic's initials here.

22        A.   I do not.

23             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like the

24     document to be MFI'd for the time being.  And once the file is completely

25     translated, it will obviously be tendered into evidence.

Page 14670

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is there any dispute about the appearance of

 2     initials of Mr. Simatovic on these documents?  Because we ask the

 3     witness -- now, of course, there may be some special reason to do that,

 4     but I would say, if I don't see any initials, there certainly are no

 5     initials of Mr. Simatovic.  I wonder what -- why there's no agreement,

 6     unless there's any specific issue, but then I'd like to hear questions

 7     about those issues.

 8             Mr. Bakrac, have you asked Mr. Groome whether he has identified

 9     on any of the documents you are now showing to the witness the initials

10     of Mr. Simatovic?  And then one line would have done.  The

11     Simatovic Defence and the Prosecution agree that there appear no initials

12     of anyone and therefore so not of Mr. Simatovic on these documents.

13             That's -- Mr. Groome, unless there's any matter --

14             MR. GROOME:  No, I think that's certainly possible.  I think in

15     the case of these documents that have redactions, and we expect the

16     redactions to be removed shortly, I think once we can see what's

17     underneath the signature block I'd be in a position to agree to that.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  But, of course, the witness could tell us whether

19     there's any initial of Mr. Simatovic under the redaction.  So

20     therefore --

21             MR. GROOME:  Right.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- putting it to the witness doesn't -- certainly

23     doesn't help.

24             Mr. Bakrac, would you please focus on matters that really are

25     contested and are relevant for us.  And I don't know how many more of

Page 14671

 1     these documents you have, but ...

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have another document

 3     and I would like to demonstrate that the vetting procedure was carried

 4     out by the 6th Administration as well as the 2nd and the

 5     8th Administration.  The witness stated that in principle Mr. Simatovic

 6     was supposed to initial the results of any of such vetting procedures.

 7     I'm just showing you examples to demonstrate that Mr. Simatovic did not

 8     initial when the vetting procedures were done by the other

 9     administrations, namely the 2nd, the 8th, the 6th.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  But that's all clear from these documents, I think.

11     And to ask the witness whether he sees any initials seems to me a waste

12     of time.  By what it is explained, we could ask the witness, you

13     apparently have already an explanation for it, I don't know whether

14     Mr. Groome agrees with that or not, but let's then focus on what is in

15     issue.  And one of the things which is certainly not in issue, as far as

16     I can see matters now, is that from the physical part of these documents

17     that there are no initials.  And that's what you ask the witness to tell

18     us.

19             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, and I can say that I am in a position

20     at this point to say that the Prosecution would agree that

21     Mr. Simatovic's signature was not required for any vetting procedures

22     conducted by the 6th or 8th Administration.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Mr. Bakrac, please keep this in your mind.

24             The other documents Mr. Groome might not have any objection, to

25     have it bar tabled, perhaps.

Page 14672

 1             MR. GROOME:  I would not -- I have no objection to that,

 2     Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed, Mr. Bakrac, and let's use our

 4     time as efficiently as possible.

 5             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you.  I would

 6     like to tender 2D895, this is the result of vetting procedure.  We will

 7     not show the other document to the witness.  I would like the 2D895 to

 8     have the same status as the previous two documents.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  That is marked for identification.

10             Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

11             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be D462, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And keeps the status of marked for identification at

13     this moment.  Under seal, Mr. Bakrac?

14             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15             And now I would like to call up --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Under seal? was my question.

17             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] yes, yes, under seal.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Under seal for the time being.

19             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] For the time being.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, is that clear to you?

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  Just one question:  The

22     document we used was 2D896 and the tender at 895.  Is it the same

23     document?  Or ...

24             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]  No.  It is not the same document.

25     I didn't want to show 2D895 to the witness.  I followed the instructions

Page 14673

 1     of the Trial Chamber.  I tender the document without the document having

 2     been shown to the witness, and I hope that the Mr. Groome agrees with

 3     that.

 4             THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continued] ... I apologise.

 5     So 2D896 is D462 under seal.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes, now, the second one showed on the screen,

 7     have you asked for a number for that one so that Madam Registrar has the

 8     present document on the screen being assigned a number already?  It has

 9     not.  Mr. Bakrac, if you want -- like to have that once in evidence,

10     better ask it to be assigned a number as well.  That's the -85, last two

11     digits.

12             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll repeat, to be very

13     specific.  I showed two documents to the witness, 2D897 and 2D896.  And I

14     sought their admission.  After that I followed your instruction and I

15     didn't show 2D895 to the witness.  I rather sought for the document to be

16     admitted without having been shown to the witness first.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, the first document you showed to the

18     witness has -- a number has been assigned to it.  The second one you

19     showed to the witness, no number has been assigned to it, and perhaps it

20     would be wise to ask for it.  And then the document not shown to the

21     witness, with last two digits -85, has meanwhile received a number.  So

22     if you want to do it for the one on our screen, the second one you showed

23     to the witness, you have an opportunity to do so now.

24             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

Page 14674

 1             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I would like to

 2     tender 2D896 into evidence.  That is the document that we see on the

 3     screen now.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  So for clarification I'll repeat.  2D895 received

 6     number D462 and 2D896 received number D463, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I inaccurately referred to last digits.

 8     Let's forget about that.  This document now is marked for identification

 9     under number D463.

10             Please proceed.

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14675











11 Pages 14675-14677 redacted. Closed session.
















Page 14678

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 2D887.  I

 6     would like to start with page 8.

 7        Q.   And while we are waiting for the page to be displayed:  Do you

 8     know a person called Milorad Zelic?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Was he a member of the anti-terrorist unit at one point in time?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 8.

13        Q.   Since we don't have the translation of this document, let me

14     paraphrase.  These are the minutes, dated 23rd of April, 2007.  It seems

15     that Milorad Zelic signed the statement.  In the first paragraph he says

16     that in the course of 1992, as a member of the special unit of the RDB

17     MUP of the Republic of Serbia, I found myself in Baranja, in the

18     Republic of Croatia.  Together with me also as a member of the special

19     unit of the RDB Milorad Nikolic, also known as Mali Glina, was also in

20     Baranja.  Nikolic hails from Glina.  He was born on the

21     28th of March, 1973, in the Republic of Croatia.  As a volunteer he

22     joined the unit in mid-February in 1992.

23             Witness, you see the initial at the bottom of the document.

24             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 51 in the

25     same file.

Page 14679

 1        Q.   This statement was provided in the year 2000, the file that you

 2     described as a file maintained by the counter-intelligence organ of the

 3     unit.  There seems to be a request written by Milorad Zelic himself in

 4     his own hand.  It says here a special-purpose unit of the MUP of the

 5     Republic of Serbian Krajina.  Can we agree that this is the addressee?

 6        A.   Yes, in principle.

 7        Q.   Was the application sent on the 24th of June, 1992?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, has the witness any personal knowledge

 9     about the date or do you intend him to read 24.06.1992?  Because the

10     Chamber is still able to read such things.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Witness, did you know that Milorad Zelic, before having joined

14     the JATD, had been a member of the special-purposes unit of the MUP of

15     the Republic of the Serbian Krajina?

16        A.   I know Milorad Zelic as a member of the JATD.  He was first a

17     reserve soldier and then an active-duty soldier.  Later on he joined the

18     JSO, as of 1993 onwards.

19        Q.   So he arrived in the JATD in 1993?

20        A.   I encountered his name for the first time in the second half of

21     1993.  At first he was a reservist and then became an active-duty member

22     of the JATD.  I have no information about him prior to that period.

23        Q.   My last question:  Do you recall when he became an

24     active-duty member of the JATD?

25        A.   I don't exactly.  He was a member of the communications

Page 14680

 1     department.  I don't know when he became an active-duty member, but he

 2     definitely was one.

 3        Q.   Thank you, witness.

 4             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this concludes my

 5     questions.  And before that I would seek to tender 2D887 MFI'd pending

 6     translation of the entire document.

 7             MR. GROOME:  No objection, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number under which this

 9     document will be marked for identification is ...

10             THE REGISTRAR:  D465, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's the status it keeps for the time being.

12             One second, please.  I'm just -- Mr. Bakrac, I try to understand

13     what you put to the witness and what you read, and let me just have a --

14     let me just try to ... I'm just trying to understand exactly ... the one

15     document you showed to us, apparently - I couldn't read it, you

16     summarised it - says that the person we are talking about, which is

17     Milorad Zelic, that in that document it says that in the course of 1992

18     he, as a member of the special units of the RDB MUP of the Republic of

19     Serbia, he was in Baranja in Croatia.  And then at page 51 in the same

20     file we see a statement -- a statement handwritten, apparently addressed

21     to the MUP of the Republic of Serbia Krajina, dated the

22     24th of June, 1992, and what was there in that statement exactly?

23     Because apparently you -- later you asked what the date was and then you

24     asked the witness -- what -- could you precisely tell me what this

25     handwritten note of 24th of June, 1992, tells us?  It's apparently

Page 14681

 1     handwritten, it is addressed to the -- yes.

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, apologies for

 3     interrupting.  Your Honour, I was trying to show something we had

 4     discussed already and was confirmed by the witness and that is that these

 5     are the files -- I'm trying to show that in 2000 Mr. Zelic --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, Mr. Bakrac, the first thing I asked you,

 7     to tell me exactly what the document says.  And what you want to show

 8     with it may be the next question I would -- what does that handwritten

 9     document say exactly?

10             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The handwritten document reads as

11     follows:

12             "Application.  I read out the heading which says special-purposes

13     unit of the MUP of Republika Srpska Krajina.  Application.  I am writing

14     this application as I wish to become a member of your special-purposes

15     unit.  I believe to be physically and mentally fit and ready to implement

16     all tasks issued to me by my superiors.  With comrade greetings, Milorad

17     Zelic."

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now I'm trying to understand what the issue

19     is, and I'll try to formulate.  It is the Prosecution's position that

20     people like this person were employed by the RDB of the Republic of

21     Serbia and that perhaps that if such a letter is written that it shows

22     rather that it was easy to move without many formalities from one status

23     to the status in another republic, whereas you interpret this document as

24     saying that he was employed by the Republika Srpska Krajina rather than

25     by the Republic of Serbia.  Now, is that how I have to understand?

Page 14682

 1             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  It is the

 2     position of this Defence that this member, as I believe was confirmed by

 3     the witness, became a member of the unit in question as late as 1993.

 4     And he was with the special-purposes unit of the Republika Srpska Krajina

 5     MUP prior to that time, which we can see from the application.  In 2000

 6     he actually provided inaccurate data stating that he was employed by the

 7     MUP of Serbia as early as 1992.  He was trying to enjoy his rights to a

 8     pension.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, whether he provided inaccurate data is a

10     matter to be determined or not.  We'll see.  But that's at least how you

11     interpret it.  And do I understand the Prosecution's case well that

12     shifting from formally on paper, although it's only an application, it

13     does not even say that he was admitted to any unit of the

14     Republika Srpska Krajina, is all a sham, it doesn't reflect reality?

15             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  In fact, it's the primary theory

16     of the Prosecution that it's essentially one unit that had different

17     formulations, different names at different times, to allow them to act

18     covertly.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Bakrac, if you show two documents, is

20     there any specific reason why you want us to believe one better than the

21     other?  Because that -- you claim that the mistake was made in 2000,

22     whereas the ... I mean, why is the 24th of June not a mistake or a sham

23     or whatever?  Why -- because apparently you want us to believe the one

24     and not the other.

25             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, one document was

Page 14683

 1     created in realtime on the 24th of June, 1992.  It is our position that

 2     it is more likely that in 2000, in order to ascertain some of his rights,

 3     he possibly intentionally put aside the true facts in order to be given

 4     an increased pension or be accorded some other rights which has to do

 5     with retirement.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And have you addressed the issue whether or

 7     not, with this witness, why such an application made to the

 8     Republika Srpska Krajina, why that ends up in the Serbian files?  I mean,

 9     if I make an application to the community of The Hague, I would not have

10     expected it to be archived in Amsterdam.

11             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is precisely what

12     we will try to show.  We do not have enough room to move about at this

13     point in time.  We simply wanted to direct your attention to one thing

14     which we will expand on later.  People who were later on received in the

15     unit brought all of their documents with them and left them to the

16     counter-intelligence department, and the documents were then checked.

17     When, in 1993, Zelic arrived in the unit, in our view, he brought all of

18     his papers with him and handed them over to the unit.  Later on the

19     counter-intelligence organ file was created to include them all.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  At least now I better understand what the issue is.

21     You have concluded your -- not yet?

22             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I have concluded.  Thank you very

23     much.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, could you please, yourself, keep an eye

25     on the clock and see what would be the most appropriate time for the next


Page 14684

 1     break and then --

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And please also keep in mind in that respect, of

 4     course, the wishes of your client.  Please proceed.

 5   (redacted)

 6        Q.   DST-040, I'd like to just seek some clarification of some issues.

 7     First of all, the issue of the proceedings in Belgrade which have been

 8     initiated against you.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have on the screen, please, 65 ter 6295.

10        Q.   And so that you understand where I'm coming from, DST-040:  I'm

11     going to try to avoid asking you anything which would involve you having

12     to give your defence or your instructions to your Serbian counsel to this

13     Court.  I just want to confirm some details about the trial which you

14     testified in, in relation to Zvezdan Jovanovic.  Do you follow me?

15        A.   I do.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Could we turn, please, to the English page 4 and

17     the B/C/S page 3.

18        Q.   Now, from this indictment you are alleged to have given an

19     account that Zvezdan Jovanovic was at lunch in Kula on the

20     11th of March, 2003, which was in contravention of facts found by the

21     district court in Belgrade.  That's your understanding of what you're

22     charged with; is that correct?

23        A.   That is correct.

24        Q.   And this is in relation to a charge against Zvezdan Jovanovic

25     that he killed Djindjic on the 12th of March, 2003; is that correct?

Page 14685

 1        A.   Yes, it is.

 2        Q.   At this trial, the trial of Zvezdan Jovanovic, did you offer any

 3     account in relation to where Zvezdan Jovanovic was on the

 4     12th of March, 2003?

 5        A.   I did not.

 6             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Cepic.

 8             MR. CEPIC:  As yesterday, as I objected to the questions of my

 9     learned friend Mr. Dermot Groome, I also object now to the potential

10     questions of my learned friend Mr. Jordash which could be related to the

11     sensitive material of this case and which could cause any harm to my

12     client regarding to on-going procedure against him before the Belgrade

13     court.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

15             MR. JORDASH:  What I'm hoping to do is to avoid the witness

16     commenting on what he now will say about the charge when he returns to

17     Belgrade.  And I'm trying to restrict his focus to events that occurred

18     during the trial in Belgrade of Zvezdan Jovanovic.  So he will be

19     confirming, I hope, or not, things that happened at that trial which are

20     on the face of the transcript of the judgement and on the face of the

21     court records.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  What he said at the trial, especially when a

23     court says that he was not telling the truth, may in the circumstances be

24     relevant for -- by, for example, admitting that the record is accurate.

25     That may have already an impact.  I'm not saying it will have.  But under

Page 14686

 1     those circumstances, acknowledging that, even if you're talking about

 2     happened at trial, that this may in the circumstances have an impact, I

 3     would like to leave it to Mr. Cepic.

 4             And, Mr. Cepic, it's not the question, but it's the answer that

 5     could incriminate the witness or not incriminate him.  So don't object to

 6     questions, object to any obligation to answer questions.  And that

 7     depends on what the truthful answer would be.  And the Chamber doesn't

 8     know and Mr. Jordash doesn't know either at this moment.  So please

 9     consult with your client and, question by question, consider whether or

10     not you'll answer it.

11             Mr. Jordash, unless you have any specific comments in relation to

12     what I just said in analysing the situation of the subject matter of your

13     questions.

14             MR. JORDASH:  No, I don't.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You accept that?

16             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, I do accept that.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we leave it to Mr. Cepic to consult with

18     his client to see whether he thinks that a -- that he applies for not

19     being under an obligation to answer that question.

20             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

21                      [Duty counsel and witness confer]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Does the witness object to answer the question?

23             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, Your Honour, there isn't a question as yet.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, I thought that he --

25             MR. JORDASH:  He answered the one that I put.

Page 14687

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, let me then have a look then.  One second.  Yes,

 2     you asked him whether he offered any account in relation to, and then the

 3     witness answered that he did not.  And now we are waiting for your new

 4     question.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

 6             Could we have on the screen, please, 6294.  And English page 295

 7     and the B/C/S page 373.

 8        Q.   And this is the part of the judgement in that case wherein they

 9     found Zvezdan Jovanovic responsible for the murder.

10             Now, I want to read to you the finding in relation to your

11     evidence.  Witness --

12             MR. JORDASH:  This is at the bottom of Your Honours' page in the

13     English.

14        Q.   Witnesses Mico Petrakovic, Dragoslav Krsmanovic, Zoran Gulic,

15     Slobodan Loncar, Slavisa Krstic, and Zelko Pazovic [sic] claimed in their

16     testimonies that they saw the accused Zvezdan Jovanovic in Kula on the

17     11th of March, 2003, as the accused Zvezdan Jovanovic also stated,

18     namely, that he jumped with a parachute for the first time at exercises

19     organised in the unit's centre."

20             Going over the page in the English and B/C/S to page 374.

21             "These are former members of the JSO, now members of the MUP of

22     Serbia.  The court heard the witnesses, the helicopter crew

23     Igor Janackovic, flight mechanic, and Milan Jovanovic, who was undergoing

24     pilot training, who did not confirm that the accused Zvezdan Jovanovic

25     was in Kula on the 11th of March, 2003, jumping with a parachute.

Page 14688

 1     Witness Igor Janackovic, flight mechanic, says that he had not seen him

 2     and that he would certainly have recognised him because he knows him,

 3     remarking that none of the parachutists wore a face mask that day, and

 4     that he assisted them to jump out of the helicopter."

 5             And then the next paragraph, halfway down the English paragraph:

 6             "The court also dismissed the testimonies of witnesses

 7     Petrakovic, Krsmanovic, Gulic, Loncar, Krstic, Pavasovic as untruthful

 8     contrary to the testimonies of witnesses Igor Janackovic and

 9     Milan Jovanovic, and the testimonies of the co-operating witnesses and

10     the confession of the accused Dusan Krsmanovic."

11             Does that accurately reflect the judgement in relation to your

12     testimony?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, this is a very composite question, Mr. Jordash.

14     What you just read --

15             MR. JORDASH:  Let me --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  -- is what the judgement says about the content of

17     the testimony and about the untruthfulness of it.

18             Now, I have some difficulties if you then ask a witness whether

19     this reflects - and let me read it again.  You asked him whether it

20     "reflects the judgement in relation to your testimony," that is, what the

21     testimony is, whether it's truthful, untruthful, especially when someone

22     is perhaps charged with perjury then --

23             MR. JORDASH:  If I can try to clarify.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps you further specify the questions.

25     Mr. --

Page 14689

 1             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if it assists Mr. Jordash, the

 2     Prosecution will agree to anything that's in the judgement or any

 3     additional excerpts from the judgement that he thinks needs to be before

 4     the Chamber to properly assess the credibility of the witness.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I'd like the opportunity to ask some

 6     questions, if I can.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You have an opportunity.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   Looking at the very first paragraph I read to you, DST-040, the

10     judgement states that you said that Zvezdan Jovanovic had jumped with a

11     parachute on the 11th of March, 2003.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Cepic.

13             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, with your leave, now I have to object.

14     Even if the witness provides any testimony regarding to the findings of

15     the trial chamber decision before the Serbian court, that could

16     jeopardise his position in procedure for the perjury for this witness

17     before the same Serbian court.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Would the counsel please be asked to speak into

19     the microphone for the sake of interpreters.  Thank you.

20             MR. CEPIC:  I'm sorry.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You have no -- you don't have your own microphone.

22     But if you speak, please try to use the borrowed microphone.

23             MR. CEPIC:  I apologise, Your Honour.

24             My objection is as follows:  If the witness provide any answer,

25     actually comment, regarding to his testimony before the court in Belgrade

Page 14690

 1     and if he provides any comment regarding to the findings of the

 2     trial chamber in that case before the Belgrade court, that could

 3     jeopardise his position in on-going procedure pursuant to indictment

 4     which we saw yesterday for the false testimony.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me --

 6             MR. CEPIC:  So if he say -- for example, let's say -- I'm just

 7     speaking hypothetically, if he say yes or no, any answer could cause a

 8     problem.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, the -- apparently the objection - and

11     let's, for the time being, assume that the witness would adopt a similar

12     objection - is that if he, here, says that this is what his testimony was

13     at the time, that that may be an element already in any follow-up

14     proceedings for giving false statements.

15             Now, your earlier question is whether the judgement reflected --

16     I mean, we have to take it that if a judgement says this is what the

17     witness said, that, et cetera, et cetera, then that's in the opinion of

18     the court that delivers that judgement is what happened in court,

19     irrespective of what the witness says about it.  Please phrase again your

20     question and we'll then see to what extent --

21             MR. JORDASH:  Well, Your Honour, if Your Honours will accept

22     this -- the court records as an accurate reflection of what the judgement

23     was in totality and also what the witness said in totality, then I don't

24     want to put DST-040 in a difficult situation, and I can rely upon certain

25     aspects to demonstrate the point I wish to demonstrate.

Page 14691

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The Trial Chamber is certainly not at this point in

 2     time is, as you invited us to do, to accept the court records as an

 3     accurate reflection of what the judgement was in totality.  We have no

 4     way of --

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Well, that's --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- doing that at this moment.  At the same time,

 7     when you seek to elicit evidence from the witness on that matter, you are

 8     facing at this moment an objection saying that if I, as a witness, would

 9     express myself on what I said in court, which the same court says was not

10     true and where I'm at risk or even already being prosecuted for giving a

11     false testimony, then the first question in that trial or in that

12     investigation will be, What did the witness say?  And you are more or

13     less asking him now to tell whether what is reflected here in this

14     judgement, whether that reflects what he said in court.

15             MR. JORDASH:  And that is a problem if I ask a certain question

16     and get a certain answer.  It may not be a problem with other questions

17     and other answers.  And there's nothing --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Wait for -- each question, we'll consider the

19     objection.  For this question, where you say, "Does this reflect what

20     happened in court?"  That is inviting the witness to comment on what

21     happened in court and whether this actually reflects what happened in

22     court.  Now, what happened in court may be a relevant issue if he's

23     prosecuted for giving false testimony.  To that extent, if he objects to

24     answer that question, that question alone will grant him --

25             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry.  And, of course, I would not be pursuing

Page 14692

 1     this - and I made that clear at the beginning - if I thought that the

 2     question and the answer would in any way prejudice him.  And I'm

 3     confident --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but that's -- the problem is what the truthful

 5     answer and what the not truthful answer is, the Chamber at this moment

 6     can only carefully listen to what the witness says.  The witness objects

 7     because he says truthful answer might tend to incriminate.  I do not know

 8     whether that's true or not, but there is a realistic possibility.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  But the witness hasn't objected yet.  His counsel

10     has objected --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, that's --

12             MR. JORDASH:  -- on the basis of the risk.  If I could be allowed

13     to ask the question and the witness be then allowed to decide whether --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, we --

15             MR. JORDASH:  -- he wants to answer it, I would be --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We do it in the following way:  You phrase

17     once again the question you want to put to the witness.  The witness has

18     an opportunity to consult with Mr. Cepic.  And then the witness tells us

19     whether he objects to answering that question.  That's how we proceed.

20             The question.

21             MR. JORDASH:

22        Q.   Returning, DST-040, to the paragraphs.  The first paragraph that

23     I read from the judgement states that you gave testimony in that trial,

24     that the -- you had seen the accused Jovanovic, and that he had jumped

25     with a parachute on the 11th of March, 2003.  As you understood the

Page 14693

 1     judgement, was that the judgement finding that ruled that you had

 2     fabricated evidence?

 3             The judgement found that you'd lied and said Zvezdan Jovanovic

 4     had jumped with a parachute.

 5             Is that correct?

 6                           [Duty counsel and witness confer]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, will you answer the question or do you

 8     object to answering that question?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say anything about the

10     judgement.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  What you can do is to object to answer the question.

12     Do you object or do you not object?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I object to the question.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You can't object to the question.  Why not -- the

15     question is there; the other party may object to the question; such an

16     objection has not been raised by the Prosecution, not by the

17     Simatovic Defence; you, as a witness, you may decide whether or not you

18     want to object to the -- to answering the question.

19             If, for example, you say, I don't understand the question, that's

20     the reason why I don't want to answer it, then please tell us, and then

21     we'll ask Mr. Jordash.  That is an implicit kind of an objection to the

22     question.  But tell us what your position is.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let the Defence rephrase the

24     question.  I don't understand the question fully, so I cannot say whether

25     I object to answering or not.

Page 14694

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Jordash, when you phrased the question, I

 2     thought, if I would be a witness, I might have some difficulties in fully

 3     understanding this seven-line question.  Please --

 4             MR. JORDASH:  I'll do it.  Yes, I'll simplify it.  I think the

 5     last two lines should suffice.

 6        Q.   Is it correct, DST-040, that the judgement found that you lied in

 7     one respect, that you had said Zvezdan Jovanovic had jumped with a

 8     parachute and you'd seen that on the 11th of March, 2003?

 9        A.   That's what it says in the judgement.  There is a transcript of

10     my statement, and I will clarify things before the district court in

11     Belgrade and I will provide a further statement about that.

12        Q.   Okay.

13             MR. JORDASH:  I can move on to the next question, then,

14     Your Honour, and then that will be the end of this.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Please can I have on the screen 1D2-- sorry,

17     1D5233, and it's page 1 of the English and page forty -- sorry, page 50

18     of the B/C/S.

19        Q.   And this is transcript of your evidence in that trial, or part of

20     it.  Reading from the third paragraph down in the English, you were asked

21     by a Judge Lukic:

22             "Let's go back to the 11th of March, 2003, and in relation to the

23     response I think you denied us with the reply to the question of the

24     presiding judge, whether you saw the accused Zvezdan Jovanovic on that

25     day.

Page 14695

 1             "Krsmanovic:  11th?

 2             "Judge Lukic:  Yes.

 3             "Krsmanovic:  I do not remember whom exactly I saw on the 11th.

 4     I'm telling you that there was a chaos.

 5             "Lukic -- Judge Lukic:  No, 11th, not the 12th."

 6             Over the page in the English.

 7             "Krsmanovic:  Yes, 11th.  Zvezdan Jovanovic was present on the

 8     11th and Zvezdan Jovanovic had a parachute on the 11th and he had a first

 9     jump.  It was striking for me because of how I know.  I did not follow

10     the training.  I did not follow the parachute training, but it was

11     striking for me because Mico Petrakovic who was at that time an assistant

12     for operative structure told me that Zvezdan jumped.  And Petrakovic did

13     not because Dusan Maricic did not approve that.  And he was in a way

14     angry because of that.  This is how I understood it.  This is how I know.

15     I know that on the 11th all of us had lunch in Kula until 2 p.m.  After

16     that, everybody went in their own directions.

17             "Did you indirectly see Jovanovic at lunch?

18             "Yes, we were all at lunch."

19             And then further down the page, B/C/S page 51, page 2 [sic], the

20     presiding judge asks:

21             "You know that he," that's Jovanovic, "jumped on that day only

22     because of the comment?

23             "Krsmanovic:  I know he jumped on that day.  I did not follow the

24     jumps.  I really did not.  And I was busy with other things.  I did not

25     follow the jumps --

Page 14696

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Would the counsel please provide the correct

 2     reference in the B/C/S for the sake of interpreters.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Should be page 51.  If it's not page 51, then it

 4     should be page 52.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  If it could be enlarged, to start with.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Let me just pick up with that.

 7        Q.   "... I did not follow the jumps.  I do not know whether he

 8     jumped.  But I know because of the comment that Mico Petrakovic was angry

 9     on that day because he did not jump and he requested to jump as well."

10             Does that accurately summarise your testimony?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  For the interpreters:  It seems it's in the middle

12     of the page on the screen.

13                           [Duty counsel and witness confer]

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the transcript of my

15     testimony, and I will confirm my defence in Belgrade.

16             MR. JORDASH:  I think I --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That wasn't the question.  The question was, and you

18     may consider whether you wish to answer that question, but the question

19     was whether what was read by Mr. Jordash, whether that accurately

20     summarises or even reflects the testimony you had given at the time?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The transcript is accurate.  But

22     there are details which, with your leave, I would reserve the right to

23     explain before the Trial Chamber in Belgrade.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, nothing else has been asked.  You say the

25     transcript is accurate but you would like to further explain.  Now, no

Page 14697

 1     one has asked you here yet for an explanation.

 2             Mr. Jordash, you may proceed.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm moving on to a

 4     different subject.  I don't know if those sections of the court record

 5     have been tendered, but may I tender them as an exhibit?  I don't think

 6     they have --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The whole of the court is 355 pages --

 8             MR. JORDASH:  The bits I've just referred to, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Or are we talking about the transcript, Mr. Jordash?

10             MR. JORDASH:  The transcript of the witness's testimony in the --

11     as regards the bits I've referred to in the judgement section which I've

12     referred to.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I see the judgement section which are referred to

14     are at pages 295 and 296, if I'm not making any mistakes.  You would then

15     have to -- if you want to extract them from the whole of the judgement,

16     of course we would then have to hear from Mr. Groome whether he would

17     object to that, or Mr. Bakrac.

18             MR. JORDASH:  And --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That's one.  And second, you would have to upload

20     that as a separate document.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.  And if Mr. Groome would, in due course,

22     confirm that that judgement doesn't make a finding concerning the

23     witness's testimony concerning lunch, that would, I think, deal with the

24     point concerning the witness's credibility.

25             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'm happy to discuss that with

Page 14698

 1     Mr. Jordash outside of court.  And, again, the Prosecution would agree to

 2     have any excerpt of the judgement which the Defence thinks is necessary

 3     for the Chamber to have before it.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will wait for the results of your

 5     conversation with Mr. Groome, Mr. Jordash.  And will then consider

 6     whether or not an extract of the judgement can be admitted into evidence.

 7             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I would note that yesterday we tendered

 8     6294.1, which was the 12 or 15 pages of the judgement, and it does

 9     contain the portions -- the portion that Mr. Jordash has referred to.

10             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  The only thing to do, Mr. Jordash, is not to object

12     against admission, isn't it?  That would serve your purpose.

13             Please proceed.  I'm also looking at the clock.  It's 2.00

14     almost.  How much time would you still need, Mr. Jordash, and ...

15             MR. JORDASH:  I think 20 minutes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  20 minutes.  And, again, we start -- we restarted at

17     what time exactly?  I mean, how far are we --

18             MR. JORDASH:  We started off at 12.38, so we --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  12.38.  So that -- this would be an appropriate

20     time.  I think you would have -- you would need 20 more minutes after the

21     break.  Let me then have a look.  Yes, we would then take a break until

22     half past 2.00.

23             MR. JORDASH:  May I indicate --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. JORDASH:  -- just for Mr. Cepic's convenience that I will not

Page 14699

 1     be touching on this issue again, so.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  This matter will not be further touched upon,

 3     which might make your break more relaxed.

 4             We take a break, and we resume at 2.30.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 2.00 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, are you ready to proceed?

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, please.  Thank you.

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14700

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Could I have, please, on the screen P61.

 5        Q.   And this is the speech -- or it's the transcript of the Kula

 6     award ceremony.  Did you attend that Kula award ceremony?

 7        A.   I did.

 8        Q.   Now, you spent a long time addressing issues about knowledge, and

 9     I want to make sure that we're clear about what you meant when you said,

10     in relation to the Red Beret unit of Vuckovic, that you wouldn't have

11     known it.  I'm interested in whether you would have known other aspects

12     of the Prosecution's Red Beret theory.

13             Could I take you, please, to page 9 of the English and page 7 of

14     the B/C/S.  And I'm taking you to Mr. Simatovic's speech at the Kula

15     award ceremony.  Do you recall this speech?

16        A.   I do.  Not in detail, but generally.

17        Q.   Do you recall -- have to -- taking yourself back to that time, do

18     you recall any impression or feeling or thoughts you had after

19     Mr. Simatovic had given that speech, talking about the supposed

20     activities of the unit?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I just inquire how this arises from my

23     cross-examination.  I don't believe I went anywhere near this.

24             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I'd answer that in two ways.  First of all,

25     my learned friend asked the witness about the witness's knowledge of a

Page 14701

 1     unit.  If fact, actually what my learned friend did was asked the witness

 2     about a unit and then fluctuated between a unit and units, and then --

 3     but left it on one sole issue, whether this witness knew about this small

 4     Red Beret unit.  And I think the more interesting question which needs to

 5     be clarified is --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  To be quite honest, I don't remember in detail the

 7     speech.  So therefore, for this reason alone, I'm unable to rule on it

 8     that it's not touched by it.  But you are aware of Mr. Groome's concerns.

 9     And there's no clear objection at this moment, although he wonders.

10     Please wonder with him.  Please proceed.

11             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

12        Q.   We're focusing on what you knew and what you would have known

13     about any special unit or units belonging to the DB of Serbia in 1991 and

14     1992 and onwards.  Do you recall this speech where Mr. Simatovic laid out

15     the supposed activities of the special unit of the DB of Serbia?

16        A.   I recall the speech in general terms.

17        Q.   Let's go to some specifics, then, and see what you knew or would

18     have known or couldn't have known.  Just have a quick glimpse at that

19     first page, Mr. Simatovic's introduction of the unit since it was

20     constituted on the 4th of May, 1991.  And then across the page to page 10

21     of the English and 8 of the B/C/S, where Mr. Simatovic gets into

22     specifics.  And Mr. Simatovic says that the contribution of the special

23     operations unit is enormous, 47 soldiers were killed and 250 wounded in

24     combat operations at 50 different locations.  Now, focusing on 1991 to

25     1995, is that something you know about?

Page 14702

 1        A.   I said that my knowledge about the unit start with -- starts with

 2     1993 when the unit for anti-terrorist operations was created, the JATD.

 3     Later on, through some restructuring, it became the JSO in 1996.

 4        Q.   What about your knowledge then from 1993 in relation to combat

 5     operations in 50 different locations; do you know anything about that?

 6        A.   I am unaware of such locations or combat operations.  I mention

 7     in my statement where my unit was engaged.  It was Operation Pauk and

 8     combat in the area of Kosovo in 1998 and 1999.

 9        Q.   Do you think if a unit had existed connected to one of the

10     administrations of the DB in 1993 onwards engaged in combat in

11     50 different locations or a large number such as that, you would have

12     known about it or not?

13        A.   By nature of things, I should have some knowledge about it, but I

14     don't.

15        Q.   Just to clarify a little:  When you say by "nature of things,"

16     I'm not challenging, I want you to explain why you say by nature of

17     things I should have known, if it was correct.

18        A.   In the JATD, which later on became the JSO, I was assistant

19     commander for logistics.  It means that any larger scale engagement

20     involved my activities, or activities on my part.

21        Q.   Just going down in this speech.  Mr. Simatovic mentions there:

22             "One of the unit's most successful actions in our territory was

23     the capturing of the National Guard Corps terrorist group caught in the

24     Apatin area in 1993."

25             Is that something that you learned about or not?

Page 14703

 1        A.   In what area and at what time was that?

 2        Q.   Well, Mr. Simatovic says the Apatin area in 1993.  Can you see

 3     that on the screen?  Page -- it should be page 8, I think, of the B/C/S.

 4        A.   I don't have that on the screen.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Maybe let's try B/C/S page 9.  I think that should

 6     be the right one because I can see reference there to -- no, I think

 7     that's too far on.  Let's go back.  I think it's the page before, must

 8     be.

 9        Q.   Yes, I can see it at the top of the page in B/C/S.  Do you see

10     it?

11        A.   Yes, I see it.

12        Q.   Did you know about this?  Did you come to learn about it?

13        A.   According to my knowledge, this operation was conducted by the

14     Ministry of the Interior.  And at that time I was with the public

15     security sector.  The operation was led by Radovan Stojicic, Badza, who

16     was the commander of the special unit.  I think parts of the Krajina

17     special unit or Special Police took part as well.  I do not have direct

18     knowledge.  It is something I learned partially through official channels

19     and partially from the media.

20        Q.   That's fine.  Thank you very much for the answer.  Let's move on.

21             You can see, just below that, Mr. Simatovic continues, and it

22     says, three or four lines down:

23             "The Second War Service Intelligence Administration which was

24     also set up at that time," which seems to be referring back to 1993,

25     "includes a special team for offensive and logistical support of the

Page 14704

 1     special operations units."

 2             Was there any other offensive and logistical support for a

 3     special unit that you are aware of in 1993 other than your own?

 4        A.   I have no such knowledge whether in the service there was another

 5     unit, another intelligence department or offensive unit.  I have no such

 6     knowledge.

 7        Q.   Do you think if they had been attached to another administration

 8     or the 2nd Administration, you would have known about that?

 9        A.   Had such a thing existed as part of the unit, I would have been

10     aware of it.  Now, had it been part of the 2nd Administration, I suppose

11     I would have known, although I don't have any such knowledge.

12        Q.   Why do you suppose you would have known if it was part of the

13     2nd Administration?

14        A.   Please repeat your question.  I wasn't focused enough.

15        Q.   Why do you suppose you would have known about such a support unit

16     if it was part of the 2nd Administration?

17        A.   Because I was in charge of logistics and because I was familiar

18     with the internal organisation and job classification of the JATD, later

19     JSO.

20        Q.   Just moving on to two more parts of Mr. Simatovic's speech.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Page 9, please, of the B/C/S and 11 of the English.

22        Q.   Mr. Simatovic then says that a part of the unit -- or, sorry, the

23     unit split into two and the two units were engaged in setting up

24     26 training camps for the Special Police Unit of Republika Srpska and the

25     Republic of Serbian Krajina.  When you took over, just looking at the

Page 14705

 1     list of names there -- or perhaps we can deal with this pictorially.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Can I have on the screen, please, 65 ter CB-map 06,

 3     which is a pictorial representation of the camps Mr. Simatovic refers to.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  I apologise, can we have a 65 ter number?

 5             MR. JORDASH:  That is the 65 ter number, I'm afraid, I think.

 6     CB-map 06.

 7        Q.   Whilst that's coming up, Mr. DST-040, I want to take you back to

 8     the times in 1991 and 1992 when you're on the border of Croatia as part

 9     of Operation Danube and when you became the deputy commander of a

10     detachment, the PJM, until the middle of 1993.  And I want to ask whether

11     during that time you were aware of a Red Beret unit -- I'm not sure what

12     the number is supposed to be, but let's say a large number of Red Berets

13     organising training camps along the borders of Croatia or, further, the

14     borders of Bosnia.  Is that something you became aware of either during

15     your tasks on the border of Croatia or later on when you joined the DB?

16        A.   I did not have knowledge about such camps or training-grounds, I

17     believe you said.

18        Q.   Yes, training-grounds or training camps set up by the DB.

19             Let me be specific.  When you were along the border as part of

20     Operation Danube and then later as the PJM commander dealing

21     with territories along the Drina River, would you have noticed if large

22     numbers of men forming a Red Beret unit were organising and supplying

23     training camps at the borders of Croatia?

24        A.   If I set aside the Drina and 1993, which is when Operation Drina

25     took place, and if we are discussing Operations Danube and Srem, then I

Page 14706

 1     have no knowledge of any training camps existing or being formed in that

 2     area.

 3        Q.   Would you have known if employees of the DB were engaged in

 4     setting up training camps?

 5        A.   I should have, but I didn't.  I probably would have known.

 6        Q.   Let me leave this diagram.

 7             Do just take your mind back to the speech at Kula, at the Kula

 8     ceremony.  After Mr. Simatovic had given the speech, did you have any

 9     thoughts about it at the time?

10        A.   I can express my personal opinion, given the fact that the state

11     president visited the unit.  I believe the speech was actually used to

12     picture the unit in a much better light and that that was simply

13     exaggerated.

14        Q.   If I can just take one more subject.  I just want to ask a you

15     different but related subject relating to Radoslav Kostic.  You were

16     asked about Radoslav Kostic, and you --

17             MR. JORDASH:  At, Your Honours, page 14632.

18        Q.   -- you were asked about his death, and you said:  "There are a

19     lot of versions of that story, actually several versions, describing the

20     death of Radoslav Kostic.  I'm not aware of any details."

21             Can I just clarify whether -- what it is you do know.  Was there

22     any suggestion that Kostic had been killed by anyone?  Intentionally, I

23     mean.

24        A.   There was such information as well.

25        Q.   And what did that information point to?

Page 14707

 1        A.   I have no direct knowledge.  I can only discuss the information

 2     that was in circulation.  Some said that he was killed in an accident,

 3     others said it was in a duel.  But I have no specific knowledge regarding

 4     that.

 5        Q.   The knowledge that you do have, was anybody named or implicated

 6     by name in his death?

 7        A.   No, I know nothing about that.

 8        Q.   Was it said who it was he was supposed to be in a duel with, or

 9     which group?

10        A.   I'm not aware of any details.

11        Q.   Okay.  Was there any stories about him being killed in combat, or

12     was it an accident or a duel?

13        A.   There were all kinds of rumours and several versions of that

14     stories -- of that story.  And I don't have any immediate direct

15     knowledge.  I heard from other people, so I can't tell you much about

16     that.

17        Q.   Was he ever a combatant for the JATD?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   I've got no further questions.  Thank you, DST-040.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jordash.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Have the questions in re-examination triggered any

23     need for further questions to the witness, Mr. Groome?

24             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour, there is one area that I would

25     like to clarify with the witness.


Page 14708

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that 65 ter 6301 be brought to our

 3     screens.

 4                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Groome:

 5        Q.   DST-040, yesterday I asked you to look at a number of per diems

 6     that were selected because they were on dated documents.  Today

 7     Mr. Bakrac has asked you about whether or not Mr. Simatovic's signature

 8     is contained on those.  I'm going to ask you to look at 6301.  This is a

 9     demonstrative exhibit.  It's a composite of a number of documents that

10     are already in evidence.

11             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that we just have a single copy and

12     focus a little bit --

13        Q.   Could I ask you --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac.

15             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would kindly ask

16     Mr. Groome to be very precise.  Yesterday the witness was asked about

17     initials, whereas now we see signatures on documents.  Let's be precise.

18     The two documents that were shown were initialled, and this is what the

19     witness was asked about, about Simatovic's initial.  Let us make the

20     distinction here between signatures on the one hand and initials on the

21     other.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, since Mr. Bakrac suggested three times

23     what you should do ...

24             MR. GROOME:  I will abide by that, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.

Page 14709

 1             MR. GROOME:

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 14710

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15        Q.   Witness, earlier today and yesterday Mr. Groome showed you a list

16     of per diems that you signed.  Did the document show typewritten words

17     "deputy commander of the JATD, Milan Radonjic"?

18        A.   What document do you have in mind?

19        Q.   In order not to waste time, I believe that Mr. Groome will agree

20     with me that a document that you signed also featured the typewritten

21     words "deputy commander of the JATD, Milan Radonjic," agreeable with the

22     payment of per diems.

23             MR. GROOME:  I do agree that his name was typed there and that

24     the witness signed it for Mr. Radonjic.

25             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Very well.  Precisely that.

Page 14711

 1        Q.   My question is this:  Why did you use the word "za," "on behalf

 2     of," and why did you sign?

 3        A.   Because it was common practice.  When I signed for somebody else

 4     on behalf of somebody else, I had to precede my signature with the word

 5     "za," "on behalf of," because the typed name was that of Milan Radonjic.

 6             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in order not to waste

 7     time and go through the documents one by one, I hope that Mr. Groome will

 8     agree with me that on the five payment lists of the 60 that we have,

 9     there is the typewritten name of Milan Radonjic and that the name and the

10     signature is preceded on all five of them with the word "za," "on behalf

11     of."  So if Mr. Groome is agreeable with that, there's no need to go into

12     further detail and waste time.

13             MR. GROOME:  I do agree that that's a fair characterisation of

14     these exemplars.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.

16             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17             And just one more question, which is a follow-up on what

18     Mr. Jordash asked the witness.

19        Q.   Witness DST-040, in 1993 did JATD have an "eskadrila" of any

20     kind?

21        A.   I don't know.  There was a special organisational unit in the

22     state security sector.  It was an air squadron.  An "eskadrila," an "air

23     squadron."

24             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that the

25     witness's words were misinterpreted.  I will ask the witness, therefore,

Page 14712

 1     to repeat exactly what he said about the air squadron.

 2        Q.   Where was that air squadron?

 3        A.   The air squadron existed in the public security sector as a

 4     special organisational unit of the Serbian MUP.

 5        Q.   In other words, the JATD did not have its air squadron.

 6        A.   Later on, its organisational chart showed an air squadron.

 7             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, again the

 8     interpretation is completely wrong.  Can you please repeat what I've just

 9     asked you and what you answered.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You have reasons to verify the translation.  That's

11     what you wanted to say, isn't it?

12             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continued] ... okay, let's --

14     let's then do that.  You can ask the witness to repeat his answer or any

15     other suitable way.

16             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Witness, I asked you whether the JATD have its air squadron.

18     Please repeat your answer.

19        A.   There was no air squadron on the strength of the JATD.

20        Q.   You said that later on such a unit existed on the strength of

21     somebody else -- some other unit.

22        A.   Yes, on the strength of the JSO.

23             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Those were

24     all my questions.  And now everything has been clarified.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.


Page 14713

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Since the Chamber has no further questions for you,

 3     this concludes your evidence, witness.  I usually say to witnesses - I

 4     think that's what I said last time - thank you very much for coming to

 5     The Hague, but as I understand, you did not have much choice.  But

 6     nevertheless thank you for appearing in court and answering all the

 7     questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Chamber.  And,

 8     therefore, I take the safety of your return will be guaranteed.  But when

 9     I say I wish you a safe return, that is a general expression for: I hope

10     that you'll come back safe and well.

11             I have one matter which I'd like to deal with in closed session

12     after the witness has --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- left the courtroom.  The witness may be escorted

15     out of the courtroom.

16                           [The witness withdrew]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 14714











11 Pages 14714-14715 redacted. Closed session.
















Page 14716

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.


Page 14717

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 2             Mr. Groome, you would like to inform the Chamber about - we are

 3     talking about DST-036 - whether or not the parties are sufficiently

 4     prepared for the examination of the witness next week.

 5             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.  The Prosecution has

 6     reviewed the responses provided by the Defence to the queries submitted

 7     by the Prosecution regarding the 65 ter summary for DST-036.  The

 8     Prosecution appreciates the effort made by the Defence to provide as much

 9     information as they may possess regarding the anticipated testimony.

10     However, it is apparent both from Mr. Jordash's submissions earlier today

11     as well as from answers to the 65 ter summary questions that the Defence

12     themselves have limited information regarding the details of the

13     anticipated evidence of this witness.

14             As stated in court yesterday, the Prosecution will attempt to be

15     as flexible as possible.  However, at this point, and based upon the

16     Defence assertion that no additional information is likely to be

17     available prior to Monday, the Prosecution submits that it is very

18     probable that we will move for a delay in the cross-examination of the

19     witness.  Of course, should this situation change, the Prosecution will

20     immediately inform the Chamber and Defence counsel.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the witness scheduled to travel on Saturday, I

22     understand, Mr. Jordash?

23             MR. JORDASH:  At the moment I think that's the arrangement.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you said you couldn't interview the

25     witness today.  What about tomorrow?

Page 14718

 1             MR. JORDASH:  He's out of Belgrade.  That's the problem --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the problem.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  -- where our investigator lives and works.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will consider the matter.  And we -- of

 6     course, we do understand the urgency due to the travelling.  We'll

 7     discuss the matter after court, and the parties will be informed about

 8     how the Chamber expects the parties to proceed next week.

 9             And then my -- another observation.  Mr. Bakrac, there was some

10     discussion about when a certain document was released from the e-court.

11     I can tell you that a relevant document was released at 1:01.10 this

12     afternoon.  It was approximately 30 or 60 seconds before you emphasised

13     so much that the document was released.  That's one of the advantages of

14     computerized systems.

15             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour, I

16     would like to apologise.  If there's any justification for that, that

17     would be that I did not have the time to check that with my Case Manager.

18     I only read his message on Gtalk, hence the misunderstanding for which I

19     once again apologise to you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm -- of course, the Chamber is always happy

21     to receive whatever apologies.  And we give apologies now and then as

22     well.  What we're more interested in is to avoid a defective preparation.

23             Mr. Groome, you are on your feet.

24             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  A couple of matters with respect

25     to the evidence of the last witness.

Page 14719

 1             There were three documents that I had worked with that I was

 2     unable to tender because of some technical problems that we experienced.

 3     And I'd like to do that now, if the time permits.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 5             MR. GROOME:  The first is 65 ter 6291.  And I would note that

 6     this is the same as 65 ter 2D890.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And what is the document?  I do now understand that

 8     3822 is the same as seven thousand three hundred and -- well, that

 9     doesn't really assist me.

10             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, all of these are personnel files --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

12             MR. GROOME:  -- and if you need the name, we may need to go back

13     into closed session.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  So we are talking about personnel files.  6291 is

15     the first one, yes.

16             MR. GROOME:  The seconds one is 6288.  And if you recall, that

17     was the one that had some photographs.  And we have corrected that and

18     only the relevant pages are now part of that exhibit.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And had a number been already assigned to that

20     provisional --

21             MR. GROOME:  Not yet, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Then the third one.

23             MR. GROOME:  -- is 6271.  I only worked with one document that

24     had a particular stamp at the bottom.  I've asked my colleagues whether

25     they would want other documents from that file.  There's only one

Page 14720

 1     document that I seek to tender, although if the Chamber seek -- wishes it

 2     or Defence would like more portions of the file, I would have no

 3     objection to that.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Any requests in that respect?

 5             MR. JORDASH:  In that respect, no.  I'd need to have a look at

 6     the files.  But I do register the usual objection to the --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- fresh evidence.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  -- fresh evidence.  And submit, very briefly, that

 9     the Prosecution produced these files in order to establish something

10     which they had opportunity to establish during their case.  This evidence

11     gives rise to a number of types of prejudice including work that now

12     needs to be done on investigating who these characters are and their

13     relationship, if any, to the DB.  And, secondly, that we will have to now

14     review the Prosecution case to ascertain whether re-call of witnesses is

15     also something that we will need to do to deal with the prejudice.

16             Those are my submissions.

17             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, with respect to 6271, the Prosecution

18     has also prepared 6271.1, which is simply the page.  If the Chamber

19     recalls, I did not ask anything substantive about the document, but just

20     focused on the stamp at the bottom.  And so in light of Mr. Jordash's

21     objection, I would tender 6271.1.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That would limit at least portions of the fresh

23     evidence.

24             MR. JORDASH:  I may take the same objection.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do understand that, but would you -- if you

Page 14721

 1     would be overruled, would you rather have just the one page?  Or ...

 2             MR. JORDASH:  May I have time to look at the document in

 3     totality, please.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let me --

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, for 6291, the number would be ...

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be P3039, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  For 6288, it would be ...

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  P3040, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And for 6271.1 ...

11             THE REGISTRAR:  P3041, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  In order to keep the pending issues list as short as

13     possible, and in view of the decision and the Chamber's views on fresh

14     evidence, P3039, P3040, and P3041 are admitted into evidence.

15             If there's any need to further contextualise extracts from

16     documents or have others added, an application can always be made, and

17     preferably by the parties together, and then we'll consider whether a

18     more extensive or even a more limited document will be -- will be in

19     evidence.  But this is as matters stand now.

20             And I take it, Mr. Groome, that they should all be under seal?

21             MR. GROOME:  Provisionally, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Provisionally they are under seal.  So they

23     are therefore now under seal.

24             Yes.  Any other matter?

25             MR. GROOME:  Just briefly, Your Honour.  I know of the

Page 14722

 1     Chamber's -- we're well aware of the Chamber's guidance with respect to

 2     redacted documents.  Out of necessity, both the Prosecution and the

 3     Defence have tendered documents with this last witness that have been

 4     redacted.  We hoped to have unredacted versions available in the very

 5     near future, and I wondered whether it would be helpful for me to list on

 6     the record the exhibits, both Prosecution and Defence exhibits, currently

 7     tendered with this witness that have redactions that we hope to replace

 8     in the near future.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that would be good.

10             MR. GROOME:  Okay.  D457, D456 [Realtime transcript read in

11     error "D476"], P0-- P3038, P3039, D462, and D463.  Thank you,

12     Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, reading the transcript, did I hear you

14     well when you said D-- as the second in row, D456?

15             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then there may be a mistake in the transcript where

17     it reads at this moment "D476."

18             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour, that is a mistake.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             Mr. Jordash.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry to leap up.  It's just in relation to the

22     chart D410, which is MFI'd, in relation to this witness who has just

23     gone, and the underlying exhibits.  As I understand it, there's no

24     objection to those exhibits or the chart?

25             MR. GROOME:  Prosecution has no objection to either the charts or

Page 14723

 1     the admission of the underlying exhibits.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Same for the Simatovic Defence?

 3             The underlying exhibits have not yet been assigned numbers, not

 4     all of them.  I don't have that chart with me at this moment.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, I think they have.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  All of them?

 7             MR. JORDASH:  D41-- yes, all of them.

 8             MR. GROOME:  I would make the observation that according to the

 9     Prosecution's records many of them seem to be duplicates of exhibits

10     already in evidence.  Perhaps if the Chamber gives myself or Mr. Jordash

11     an opportunity to review them, we can reduce the number of exhibits in

12     the case.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, let's try to do that.  But then at least the

14     chart D410, which is MFI'd, can be admitted into evidence.  And we'd like

15     to receive an update on any duplicates on the list of any underlying

16     exhibits so that no unnecessary decisions for admissions are made.

17             Yes, the underlying exhibits have been provisionally numbered

18     D412 up to and including D421, tentatively under seal.  The Chamber would

19     like to receive any information about duplicate before finally deciding

20     on admission.

21             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then if there are no other matters, we adjourn.  And

23     we will resume, though subject to a possible cancellation, resume on

24     Tuesday, the 25th of October, at quarter past 2.00 in this same

25     courtroom, II.

Page 14724

 1             But again, the Chamber will communicate to the parties whether it

 2     really will be that date and what the Chamber expects from the parties or

 3     that it will be later that week or not at all that week.  And the parties

 4     are aware that the week after that, that's the week starting the

 5     31st of October, is a non-sitting week.

 6             We stand adjourned.

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.35 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 25th day of

 9                           October, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.