Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14803

 1                           Wednesday, 9 November 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is case number IT-03-69-T.  The Prosecutor versus

10     Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             I've not been informed about any procedural issues.  I repeat

13     what I said yesterday because our information is that the medical

14     situation of Mr. Stanisic is similar to yesterday, so what I said

15     yesterday is still valid for today.

16             Mr. Farr, are you ready to continue your cross-examination?

17             MR. FARR:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Dragicevic, I would like to remind you that you

19     are still bound by the solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth,

20     the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, the solemn declaration that

21     you gave yesterday.

22             Mr. Farr will now continue his cross-examination.

23                           WITNESS:  VLADO DRAGICEVIC [Resumed]

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Farr:  [Continued]

Page 14804

 1        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Dragicevic.

 2        A.   Good morning.

 3        Q.   To start with I just want to clear up one thing from yesterday.

 4     When I asked you who you knew to be the commander of the JSO, you said

 5     that it was Milorad Lukovic.  Just so we are clear, Milorad Lukovic was

 6     also known as Legija; correct?

 7        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 8        Q.   Are you aware that he was also known as Milorad Ulemek?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Okay.  Returning to your work history now, in paragraph 4 of your

11     statement you said that Jovica Stanisic was very angry when he heard that

12     you were fired from your position at the federal MUP.  Why was he angry?

13        A.   Well, probably because of the manner in which this has been dealt

14     with.

15        Q.   And what do you mean by that?  What was it about the manner in

16     which it was dealt with that made him angry?

17        A.   Well, the simple explanation was provided of me failing to seek

18     permission from my superior and denying me the right to appeal the

19     decision.

20        Q.   In your view, was there any kind of tension or mistrust between

21     the federal MUP and the Serbian DB at the time you were dismissed?

22        A.   I wouldn't say that there was any sort of tension, rather, I

23     would say that the federal MUP was in total disarray.

24        Q.   You go on to say that Jovica Stanisic hired you two or three

25     weeks later.  You must have been grateful to him for giving you a job so

Page 14805

 1     soon after you had lost the previous one; is that correct?

 2        A.   Of course.  When a person ends up in such a dead-end situation,

 3     any way out is accepted with gratitude.

 4        Q.   And is that especially true in light of the fact that you were

 5     hired at a relatively high level as a special advisor to the chief of the

 6     service?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, would you expect the witness to say no, at

 8     a lower level I would have been more happy?  I mean, don't ask for the

 9     obvious, please.

10             MR. FARR:

11        Q.   In paragraph 7 of your statement you said:

12             "Following the assassination of the prime minister Djindjic I was

13     replaced and I got retired."

14             What is the link between Djindjic's assassination and your

15     replacement and retirement?

16        A.   Following prime minister Djindjic's assassination I continued in

17     the job of the chief of administration Chef de Cabinet and member of the

18     council for national security.  Three or four days after the

19     assassination, I was summoned by the then BIA director who told me that I

20     would no longer be able to perform these duties.

21        Q.   Did he indicate that there was any link between Djindjic's

22     assassination and you being dismissed?

23        A.   He did not indicate that at all.  The issue raised was whether

24     I -- or rather, I asked him if I met the requirements for retirement and

25     he answered in the affirmative and I could tell by the expression of his

Page 14806

 1     face that he was relieved.

 2        Q.   So you asked on your own initiative whether you could retire four

 3     days after Djindjic was assassinated; is that your evidence?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Why did you wish to retire precisely at that time?

 6        A.   The work of the service as a whole went against some of my

 7     positions and views [Realtime transcript read in error "dues"].

 8        Q.   I guess what I'm trying to get at is the temporal link.  You

 9     asked to be retired four days after Djindjic was assassinated.  Was it at

10     the moment that Djindjic was assassinated that the work of the service

11     went against some of your positions and views, I think you may have said

12     although the transcript says "dues"?

13        A.   When I said the work of the service, I meant the appointment of

14     certain individuals to certain posts, these being individuals without the

15     requisite experience and not up to the tasks they were supposed to

16     perform.

17        Q.   Were those appointments related to the Djindjic assassination in

18     some way?

19        A.   That I don't know.

20        Q.   So is it your evidence that it's simply a coincidence that you

21     asked to be retired four days after the Djindjic assassination?

22        A.   Perhaps not.  I apologise, the BIA director told me after my

23     replacement that there was one other post in the service that I could

24     occupy and that was the education centre.  I declined with all due

25     respect for the individuals who occupy such posts.

Page 14807

 1        Q.   Sir, I still don't think I understand you.  What -- are you

 2     saying there's no link between your request to be retired and the

 3     Djindjic assassination?  Was the fact the that Djindjic was assassinated

 4     related to the fact that you asked to be retired four days later, and if

 5     so, what was the link?

 6        A.   I don't see the point of the question.  I don't understand.

 7     There is no link.

 8        Q.   That was the point of the question, sir.

 9             Were any allegations made against you at the time of the Djindjic

10     assassination?

11        A.   Several days later I learned from the media, more precisely it

12     was news carried on TV and the press, that I had been arrested.  The

13     explanation given was that I betrayed official information to a criminal

14     group call the Zemun Clan which had been charged with organising and

15     assassinating Prime Minister Djindjic.

16        Q.   But those allegations had nothing to do with your request for

17     retirement, or with your replacement; is that your evidence?

18        A.   No.  That was after my retirement.

19        Q.   Okay.  And what is your response to those allegations?

20        A.   I called the BIA director on the phone and told him I just heard

21     on or the TV that I was arrested while I'm here sitting in my home.  What

22     am I supposed to do?  The answer I received was, nobody is consulting us

23     on any matter anymore.  My response to that was, well, then I will not be

24     consulting anyone on anything either.  I replaced the receiver and I

25     never had contact with anyone in the security service again.

Page 14808

 1        Q.   And what is your response to the allegation that you betrayed

 2     official information to the Zemun Clan?  Is that true or false?

 3        A.   The only connection with the Zemun Clan was the fact that I

 4     resided in Zemun.  I felt highly uncomfortable and unsettling about it

 5     but the hardest hit was my family.

 6        Q.   I'd now like to turn to the take-over of the federal SUP building

 7     by the Serbian DB.  First of all, is it correct that you were already a

 8     member of the Serbian DB by the time this take-over occurred?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   In paragraph 8 of your statement you say this of the take-over:

11             "I'm not sure, but I think an agreement about it existed between

12     the federal and republic minister."

13             When you refer to the federal minister, are you talking about

14     Pavle Bulatovic?

15        A.   Yes, I think so.

16        Q.   Why do you think that this take-over was done with the agreement

17     of Pavle Bulatovic?

18        A.   There's nothing for me to think about it.  I heard that this was

19     the way things were done.

20        Q.   Whom did you hear that from?

21        A.   From my colleagues.

22        Q.   Your colleagues in the Serbian DB?

23        A.   No, my colleagues who stayed in the federal SUP and joined the

24     republican.

25        Q.   Were those colleagues in the federal SUP or the republican SUP at

Page 14809

 1     the time of the take-over?

 2        A.   They were members of the federal SUP.  After the take-over, the

 3     joint -- the republican SUP.

 4             MR. FARR:  Can we please have P2993 on the screen.

 5        Q.   Sir, this document contains the minutes of the session of the

 6     council for reconciliation of standpoints regarding state politics held

 7     on the 2nd of November, 1992, about two weeks after the take-over of the

 8     federal MUP building.

 9             MR. FARR:  If we can have the top of the second page in both

10     languages.

11        Q.   As you can see this meeting was attend by Milan Panic,

12     Slobodan Milosevic, Momir Bulatovic, and the man who you say agreed to

13     the take-over of the federal MUP building, Pavle Bulatovic.

14             MR. FARR:  If we could have the third page in both languages, I'd

15     like to read you an account of what Minister Bulatovic said.

16        Q.   [As read] "Further on during the session, federal minister of

17     Internal Affairs informed the members of the council about the event that

18     took place on 18 October this year.  On the aforementioned day, officers

19     of the republic Ministry of Internal Affairs forcefully occupied the

20     building of the federal Ministry of Internal Affairs located in the

21     street Kneza Milosa 90 to 92.  Once they were inside the building, the

22     officers prohibited the employees of the State Security Service of the

23     Federal Ministry of Internal Affairs to enter their offices.  Taking over

24     the building, the officers also took over its communications system,

25     system of crypt protection, all equipment and technical devices of the

Page 14810

 1     State Security Service, documentation, registries, and the carpool."

 2             Sir, do you agree with me that these statements by

 3     Pavle Bulatovic clearly demonstrate that the take-over was by force and

 4     didn't take place as a result of an agreement between the federal and

 5     republican ministers?

 6        A.   This is the first time I've seen the document and I stand by my

 7     earlier statement, that I had only heard that there had been an

 8     agreement.

 9        Q.   In paragraph 9 of your statement you indicated that you were not

10     present when the take-over by the service came about.  Where were you?

11        A.   That's correct.  I was not there.  I was at home.

12        Q.   Are you aware that on the 27th of June, 1992, the police brigade

13     of the federal MUP sent 17 of its members and brigade deputy commander

14     Milorad Davidovic to the Republika Srpska with the aim of stabilising the

15     security situation, establishing the legality of work and normal

16     functioning of Internal Affairs organs, and ensuring the legitimacy of

17     the organs of authority?

18        A.   I don't know about that.

19        Q.   And I take it it follows then you are not aware of the resulting

20     report in August 1992 in which Davidovic described the criminal

21     activities of paramilitary groups in Bosnia, including Captain Dragan's

22     Red Berets and a group belonging to Zivojin Ivanovic, aka Crnogorac, who

23     according to the report was associated with the Serbian DB; is that

24     correct?

25        A.   That I don't know either.

Page 14811

 1        Q.   You say of Captain Dragan in paragraph 79 of your statement:

 2             "I met him for the first time after the 5th of October 2000, when

 3     major rallies took place and there was a change of the regime in Serbia."

 4             Can you tell us as precisely as possible when you met

 5     Captain Dragan for the first time and under what circumstances?

 6        A.   I met Captain Dragan by coincidence in Belgrade several days

 7     after the events of the 5th of October.  He was in the company of a man I

 8     knew.  That was when we made our acquaintance.

 9        Q.   And is it correct that that was a memorable experience given

10     Captain Dragan's fame and notoriety?

11        A.   Well, I saw images of him on TV and of course I recognised him

12     right away.

13        Q.   In paragraph 79 of your statement you say:

14             "I did not know of Captain Dragan in 1991.  I heard of him

15     afterwards but I did not know him."  Then of course you continue to say

16     that you met him after the 5th of October, 2000.  My question is, when

17     did you first hear of him?

18        A.   I can't state a specific date, but his photographs were published

19     widely in the media.

20        Q.   Would it have been in 1991 or 1992?

21        A.   I don't know.  I can't tell you.

22        Q.   Did you ever learn of any link or relationship between

23     Captain Dragan and the Serbian DB?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Did you ever learn about any links or relationship between

Page 14812

 1     Captain Dragan and Jovica Stanisic?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   As far as you know, did Jovica Stanisic and Captain Dragan ever

 4     meet?

 5        A.   I'm not aware of that.  For example, I never saw Captain Dragan

 6     in our building, and that was the only place where I was together with

 7     Jovica Stanisic.

 8        Q.   I'd now like to turn to your responsibilities as a member of the

 9     Serbian DB.  In paragraph 12 of your statement you indicate that you

10     became the head of the administration for internal co-operation within

11     the Serbian DB in October 1992.  In paragraph 10 you indicate that you

12     received a decision appointing you to the position of special advisor to

13     the chief of service.  And in paragraph 12 you stated:

14             "I submitted reports to my superior and exclusively to him.  That

15     is, to Jovica Stanisic."

16             Was it normal for special advisors to the chief of service to

17     report only to the chief?

18        A.   The dates of my appointments are correct, so I simultaneously

19     discharged two duties, the special advisor and the chief of

20     administration.  Now, in view of the nature of the business that I was

21     in, I exclusively reported to the head of the service, i.e.,

22     Jovica Stanisic.

23        Q.   Do you know whether other people who had the same title, that is

24     special advisor to the chief, also reported only to the head of the

25     service?

Page 14813

 1        A.   I don't know about that.  There was a rule in the service which

 2     stipulated that everyone should stick to their scope of responsibilities.

 3        Q.   Because you reported only to Mr. Stanisic, the information you

 4     gave him would be available only to him and to anyone he chose to share

 5     it with; correct?

 6        A.   I submitted my reports directly to Mr. Stanisic and it was up to

 7     him to decide which pieces of information or which reports would be

 8     forwarded up to the political leadership.

 9        Q.   And because of the fundamental principle of secrecy that the DB

10     operated under, he would have only shared that information with people

11     who needed to know for the purposes of their work; is that correct?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

13             MR. JORDASH:  I think that's an objection -- sorry, this is an

14     objection, but that's an invitation to speculate.

15             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, the witness has been asked quite a few

16     things, I think, for which there's not been a very clear foundation.  He

17     certainly could know what Mr. Stanisic did with the information.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please rephrase your question.

19             MR. FARR:

20        Q.   Sir, is it correct that the DB operated under a fundamental

21     principle of secrecy that dictated that information should only be shared

22     with those people who needed the information for purposes of their work;

23     is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Do you know whether Jovica Stanisic followed that principle in

Page 14814

 1     his work?

 2        A.   I was not privy to where this information was forwarded, so I can

 3     only assume that he abided by those principles.

 4        Q.   In paragraph 76 of your statement you say:

 5             [As read] "I have never talked with Stanisic about the special

 6     operations unit, JSO, or any other unit.  In fact, I did not talk about

 7     anything else but the above-mentioned topics regarding international

 8     co-operation."

 9             Doesn't that show that Stanisic operated on this need-to-know

10     basis in his communication with you?

11        A.   Well, he was the head of the service.  I was just a clerk doing a

12     specific job.  It was not my place to inquire with the chief of the

13     service about what he was doing.

14        Q.   And as a result of that, it's likely that you are unaware of the

15     great majority of the things that Mr. Stanisic was doing and the great

16     majority of the things that he knew during the time you worked with him;

17     is that correct?

18        A.   All I can say is that Mr. Stanisic was fully informed about what

19     I was doing.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the question was a different one, not whether

21     Mr. Stanisic was informed, but whether you had any knowledge of any

22     matter outside the scope of your responsibilities that Mr. Stanisic dealt

23     with.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] .... yes.

Page 14815

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a rule in our service

 2     stipulating that representatives of the service or members of the staff

 3     of the service are to do the specific jobs they were tasked with.  I was

 4     in charge of international co-operation and I communicated with

 5     Mr. Stanisic exclusively on those issues.  This is my answer.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then Mr. Farr invites you on the

 7     following -- to give your answer to the following question:  Would this

 8     mean that whatever Mr. Stanisic knew or did which was not within the

 9     scope of your assignment, that you would not be aware of that?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Farr.

12             MR. FARR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Sir, turning now to your co-operation with foreign intelligence

14     services while you were at the Serbian DB, in paragraph 15 of your

15     statement you indicate that while Jovica Stanisic was the chief of the

16     service, you maintained contacts with about 60 foreign services.  The

17     goal of these contacts and of this co-operation was to improve the

18     intelligence position of both Serbia and the foreign countries with whom

19     this co-operation was undertaken; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And the ultimate goal of that from the point of view of the

22     Serbian service was to create a stronger, more stable, and more secure

23     position for Serbia; correct?

24        A.   Correct.

25        Q.   With respect to the CIA in particular, in paragraphs 19 and 20 of

Page 14816

 1     your statement you indicate that you arranged the first secret meeting

 2     between Jovica Stanisic and person Number 1 in early 1992 when you were

 3     still in the federal service.  Technically, according to the rules, you

 4     shouldn't have been arranging a meeting between a member of a foreign

 5     service and a member of a republican service at that time; correct?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   And similarly technically, Mr. Stanisic as a member of a

 8     republican service shouldn't have been meeting with a member of a foreign

 9     service; correct?

10        A.   That was his personal decision, whether he wanted to do that or

11     not.

12        Q.   But it was contrary to the rules then in force; correct?

13        A.   I'm not aware of what the republican service rules were.  I know,

14     however, what the federal rules were.

15        Q.   But the reality at that time was that Mr. Stanisic was the man

16     with the information and authority necessary to be useful to the CIA;

17     correct?

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   And this meeting also indicates that the Serbian DB was already

20     taking over the federal DB's function with respect to contacts with

21     foreign services; correct?

22        A.   That was an initial contact and it cannot be considered as taking

23     over the whole function.

24        Q.   But the beginning of that process?

25        A.   Well, one might say so.

Page 14817

 1        Q.   In paragraph 26 of your statement, you indicate that Stanisic was

 2     the only official in Serbia with whom the CIA could talk, and you go on

 3     to state that person Number 1:

 4             [As read] "... said to me that they, Americans, did not believe

 5     anyone other than Stanisic.  By that I understood that they had trusted

 6     the State Security Service of Serbia too."

 7             The CIA obviously viewed Stanisic as a well-informed person

 8     capable of supplying accurate information regarding matters of interest

 9     to the CIA; correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   I'd now like to turn to the UN hostage crisis.  At paragraph 42

12     of your statement you say:

13             [As read] "With finalisation of the hostage rescue mission, the

14     crisis also ended and conditions were created for resumption of the peace

15     talks with the Contact Group plan."

16             How did the release of the hostages create the conditions

17     necessary for resumption of the peace talks with the Contact Group plan?

18        A.   Because that was one of the preconditions for the resumption of

19     the negotiations and the implementations of the Contact Group, i.e., to

20     release the hostages and proceed with the implementation of the

21     Contact Group agreement and to allow free movement of international

22     forces.

23        Q.   So when you describe it as a precondition, is it your evidence

24     that the Contact Group plan negotiations could not have resumed if the

25     hostages had not been released?

Page 14818

 1        A.   Not only was it impossible for them to continue, but some more

 2     horrendous consequences would ensue such as air-strikes and the like.

 3        Q.   Is it fair to say that the peace negotiations were taking on a

 4     particular urgency at this point in time from the perspective of the RS

 5     because the military situation of the RS and the VRS was becoming

 6     somewhat more difficult?

 7        A.   That's correct.

 8        Q.   Was it also fair to say that Operation Flash in Croatia in

 9     May 1995 had weakened the strategic position of the RS and the VRS, the

10     NATO bombing had weakened it further, and there was at least a

11     possibility of more offensives from a strengthened Croatian army and

12     Army of BiH?

13        A.   I'm not in a position to comment on that because I don't have the

14     pertaining information.

15        Q.   Before we get into the actual events of the hostage crisis, in

16     paragraph 35 you indicate that the leadership of the Republika Srpska MUP

17     was involved in the proposal for mediation of the crisis.  When you say

18     the leadership of the Republika Srpska MUP, are you referring to

19     Minister Rakic and Deputy Minister Kovac?

20        A.   As far as I can remember, Kovac was the deputy and I believe I

21     saw an order signed by him.

22        Q.   Is it fair to say that the Serbian DB had good co-operation with

23     the Republika Srpska MUP at the time of the hostage crisis?

24        A.   They gave them substantial assistance because they realised what

25     it was all about.

Page 14819

 1        Q.   In paragraph 37 you say:

 2             [As read] "The negotiating mission of the service was approved by

 3     the minister and thus the government of Serbia as well as by the

 4     President of Serbia, Milosevic."

 5             When you say "minister" you are referring to Minister of the

 6     Interior Sokolovic; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, can I seek clarification of the answers.

 9     You said they gave them substantial assistance because they realised what

10     it was all about.  Do I understand that with "they" you referred to the

11     Republika Srpska MUP and that "them" refers to the Serbian DB?  Is that

12     how I have to understand your answer?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Members of the MUP of

14     Republika Srpska rendered enormous assistance because they realised that

15     was the only way to get out of the crisis.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  So the answer to my question is yes.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. FARR:

19        Q.   In your statement you describe the taking of the hostages and

20     then in paragraph 35 you say:

21             "At the same time the international community requested Serbia to

22     influence that the hostages be freed."

23             In paragraph 36 you say:

24             "We were all aware that capturing UN hostages brought an enormous

25     damage to FRY and Serbia."

Page 14820

 1             Is it fair to say that the release of the hostages was of great

 2     importance to the international community but also to Serbia's interest?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And by facilitating the release of the hostages, Serbia could

 5     undo some of the "enormous damage" to its interest that you referred to

 6     in paragraph 36; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You could even ask yourself whether it's not obvious

 9     from the statement.  Please proceed.

10             MR. FARR:

11        Q.   And just so it's clear, that was at least one of the reasons for

12     the negotiating mission; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And obvious.  Please proceed.

15             MR. FARR:

16        Q.   Sir, we agree that Jovica Stanisic went on this mission as a

17     representative of President Milosevic, that he was accepted by the RS

18     delegation as a representative of President Milosevic, that he described

19     himself and was described by journalists as a representative of

20     President Milosevic, and when the hostages were released he described

21     that as "a big success of the president of the Republic of Serbia,

22     Mr. Slobodan Milosevic."  That's all correct as far as you know, isn't

23     it?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   I'd now like to play a short video-clip but before I do, can I

Page 14821

 1     ask you whether you recall acting as an interpreter for Mr. Stanisic at a

 2     press conference with Karadzic and Aleksa Buha shortly after the release

 3     of the hostages?

 4        A.   Yes, I tried to do that.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that the same we saw yesterday, Mr. Farr, where

 6     the witness testified that he worked as an interpreter.

 7             MR. FARR:  No, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  It's a different occasion.

 9             MR. FARR:  Yes, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             MR. FARR:  Your Honours, I'd now like to play a short video-clip

12     from the video with ERN V000-3182.  The clip has 65 ter number 6309.  And

13     it runs from 11 minutes and 28 seconds to 12 minutes and 9 seconds.  The

14     transcripts have been provided to the booths marked as clip 1 and I will

15     ask Mr. Laugel to begin playing and pause at 11 minutes and 53 seconds of

16     the original which may be 25 seconds of this clip.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The transcript is

18     bilingual which is actually a question, and then the same question

19     translated into English; do we need to read it?

20             MR. FARR:  In this clip, the speech is all in B/C/S so, yes, the

21     translators will need to read the translation for this one.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Thank you.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Remaining UNPROFOR members, whom

25     the army of Republika Srpska took prisoner after the bombing of Serbian

Page 14822

 1     civilian targets by NATO aviation, have been released today at 11.00.

 2     This was said at the press conference which was held by the President of

 3     Republika Srpska, Radovan Karadzic, Deputy President Nikola Koljevic,

 4     Minister of Foreign Affairs Buha and special envoy of president of

 5     Serbia, Jovica Stanisic in Pale this morning."

 6             MR. FARR:

 7        Q.   Sir, we've just heard a journalist refer to Mr. Stanisic as a

 8     special envoy of Mr. Milosevic which confirmed what you just said.  What

 9     I want to ask you is that you on the far left-hand side of the screen?

10        A.   Yes, that is I, sitting to next to Aleksandar Buha, the foreign

11     minister of Republika Srpska.

12        Q.   And I think we can agree that the man standing in the middle in

13     the back of the room is Franko Simatovic and that he is wearing a

14     camouflage uniform and a red beret; is that correct?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   And obviously you saw Mr. Simatovic dressed like this during your

17     time on this mission?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Sir, your statement contains three paragraphs on Mr. Simatovic.

20     It talks about his position in the 2nd Administration.  It talks about

21     his relationship with Stanisic.  It mentions his presence at hostage

22     release negotiations.  It says that he liked computers.  It doesn't

23     mention anything about him wearing a camouflage uniform and a red beret

24     during your mission to Bosnia.  Why is that?

25        A.   Well, this is the first time that I see him in a uniform.

Page 14823

 1        Q.   You mean this time in the courtroom, now is the first time you

 2     see him in a uniform?  When you see this video?

 3        A.   [No interpretation]

 4        Q.   At this press conference was the first time you saw him in the

 5     uniform?

 6        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 7        Q.   Why didn't you mention that in your statement?

 8        A.   I didn't consider that to be relevant.  Why should I?

 9        Q.   You didn't think it was relevant in the context of this case that

10     Mr. Simatovic was wearing a camouflage uniform and red beret when he

11     accompanied you?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, is the witness assumed to be informed

13     about this case or did he give his statement being questioned by a party?

14     I mean, there's a suggestion in your question relevance for the case.

15             MR. FARR:  Yes.  Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Which requires --

17             MR. FARR:  I take your point.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19             MR. FARR:

20        Q.   In the context of all of the matters that are addressed in your

21     statement it didn't seem relevant to you there Mr. Simatovic was wearing

22     a camouflage uniform and a red beret at this press conference?

23        A.   I was focused on so many things that I actually didn't pay

24     attention to that detail.

25        Q.   Isn't it highly unusual that a person occupying the position of

Page 14824

 1     special advisor to the chief of the DB would be wearing a military

 2     uniform and a beret?

 3        A.   I would like to reiterate that I was not interested in that.  I

 4     didn't know anything about that because my remit and my terms of

 5     reference were completely different.

 6        Q.   Yesterday when I asked you whether you had any information that

 7     led you to believe that Franko Simatovic was a member of the DB special

 8     unit, you said no.  Do you agree with me that being in the same room with

 9     Mr. Simatovic while he was dressed like this is information that could

10     lead you to believe that Mr. Simatovic was a member of the DB special

11     unit?

12        A.   I have to say again that I was so busy I didn't have time to

13     think about it.

14        Q.   Do you agree with me that Mr. Simatovic is fairly prominent in

15     this group of men, all of whom are wearing suits, standing in the centre

16     of the back of the room behind Radovan Karadzic in a camouflage uniform

17     with a red beret?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I can answer the question, Mr. Farr, just by looking

19     at the screen.

20             MR. FARR:  Yes, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

22             MR. FARR:

23        Q.   I also asked you whether you had ever talked with Mr. Simatovic

24     about the JSO or any other special DB unit and you said no.  Are you

25     really telling us that you never asked Mr. Simatovic, or Mr. Stanisic for

Page 14825

 1     that matter, why Mr. Simatovic was dressed this way?

 2        A.   No, I didn't.

 3        Q.   Okay.  I'll ask Mr. Laugel to continue playing to the end of this

 4     clip.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Today we did important work.  We

 7     achieved something very important with the special envoy of the President

 8     of Serbia Milosevic, Jovica Stanisic.  I would like to give him the

 9     floor."

10             MR. FARR:  Your Honours, at this time I tender this clip as a

11     Prosecution exhibit.  It's 65 ter 6309.

12             MR. JORDASH:  No objections.

13             MR. PETROVIC:  [Interpretation] No objection, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?

15             THE REGISTRAR:  The number for 65 ter 6309 would be P3043,

16     Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. FARR:  I'd now like to play a second clip from the same press

20     conference.  This begins immediately after the previous clip but this

21     clip in fact has consecutive interpretation, I believe, done by the

22     witness.  So I would suggest that we simply play the clip as it is

23     without having the booths read anything.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but then we have nothing on the record, isn't

25     it.

Page 14826

 1             MR. FARR:  Well, the transcripts will be in evidence if it's

 2     admitted.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The transcript will be in evidence.

 4             MR. FARR:  Yes.  This clip is from the video V000-3182 like the

 5     last one and it runs from 12 minutes and 8 seconds to 15 minutes and 22

 6     seconds and I would ask Mr. Laugel to just play it straight through.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I have perhaps one additional request, if the

 8     interpretation by the witness in this video-clip raises any concerns

 9     about the accuracy, I would like to hear comment from our interpreters

10     because I'm totally unable to check what is translated, whether that's

11     accurate or not.  I know that this is a bit beyond what you are usually

12     doing, but therefore I'm seeking your consent to assist the Chamber in

13     this way, or otherwise, I would have to ask you to translate what is said

14     in the original language which may make it even more confusing.  Any

15     problems with this proposition?

16             THE INTERPRETER:  We'll do our best, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much.

18             Please proceed, Mr. Farr.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm not asking the interpreters for a full

21     review of the translation but whether there are any major mistakes.  I

22     notice that I'm more familiar with the word "release" rather than

23     "releasement," but any specific comments?

24             THE INTERPRETER:  It is just that the speaker said mediating

25     mission or mission as an intermediary which was left out.

Page 14827

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much for your comment.

 2             Mr. Farr, please proceed.

 3             MR. FARR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Sir, we just heard Mr. Stanisic -- we just heard Mr. Stanisic

 5     refer to "the former Bosnia and Herzegovina."  This use of the word

 6     "former" to describe Bosnia and Herzegovina was common among Serb leaders

 7     at the time; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And is it fair to say that it expressed a belief that

10     Bosnia and Herzegovina had ceased to exist as a republican state and that

11     it would inevitably be replaced by two or more entities, one of which

12     would be the Republika Srpska; is that a fair summary of how that term

13     was used?

14        A.   I would not put it that way, rather, I would say that at the time

15     the term "former" was used to refer to all the republics of the former

16     Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

17        Q.   So it's your evidence that one would have heard references to the

18     former Serbia at that time or the former Croatia or the former Slovenia?

19        A.   Well, I wasn't either in Slovenia or in Croatia to speak of the

20     former Serbia.  I was in Serbia.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's not an answer to the question.

22             The question is, Mr. Farr is exploring your earlier answer that

23     referring to the republics of the former Yugoslavia that you would refer

24     to them as the former and then the name of the republic.  Mr. Farr asked

25     you whether you are aware of the same language being used for Croatia,

Page 14828

 1     the former Croatia or the former Serbia.  Whether you were there or not

 2     has got nothing to do with the use of language in this context.  Could

 3     you please answer the question?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that term was in use, yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You mean the term, the former Croatia, or the former

 6     Serbia?  Or the former Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, although by that point there

 8     was the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and since Serbia and Montenegro

 9     were still together.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, reference was made not only to Serbia

11     and to the federal republic but also to Croatia, and was Croatia ever

12     referred to as the former Croatia?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, probably it was.  I can't be

14     positive at this time though.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Was the phrase "the former Bosnia and Herzegovina"

16     in any way related to the fact that Republika Srpska did not consider

17     itself to be an integral part of a Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I would regard it more as a

19     linguistic explanation.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

21             MR. FARR:

22        Q.   Towards the end of the clip, Mr. Stanisic says:

23             "And that of course with a wish that Yugoslavia stays with the

24     Serbian people in the Republic of Srpska."

25             Mr. Stanisic was essentially saying that the FRY and Serbia would

Page 14829

 1     continue to stand behind and support the Republika Srpska, was that your

 2     understanding of his meaning?

 3        A.   My understanding of the meaning of this sentence is that it

 4     expressed support for the Serbian people as a whole.

 5             MR. FARR:  Your Honours, I tender this clip as a Prosecution

 6     exhibit as well.  It's 65 ter 6310.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections, Madam Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 6310 will receive number P3044,

 9     Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And the transcript is in what languages?

11             MR. FARR:  The transcript attached is, in fact, just a verbatim

12     transcript of exactly what we heard with B/C/S followed by English as

13     interpreted by this witness.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  So both the original language spoken and the

15     interpretation as spoken in that video-clip?

16             MR. FARR:  Correct, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  P3044 is admitted into evidence.

18             MR. FARR:

19        Q.   Sir, in addition to Franko Simatovic were there any other

20     individuals with you on this mission dressed in camouflage uniforms and

21     wearing red berets?

22        A.   I can't remember.  The driver who was with me was in civilian

23     clothes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

25             MR. JORDASH:  Mr. Stanisic would like to be excused but I note

Page 14830

 1     the time.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps it's time for a break anyhow.  We'll take a

 3     break and we'll resume at 20 minutes to 11.00

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.13 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber apologises for the late start.  We had

 7     to deal with some urgent matters.

 8             Mr. Farr, are you ready to proceed.

 9             MR. FARR:  Yes, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

11             MR. FARR:

12        Q.   Sir, just before the break I asked you whether you remembered any

13     individuals other than Franko Simatovic wearing camouflage uniforms and

14     red berets.  You said you couldn't remember but the driver with you was

15     in civilian clothes.  Are you referring to the driver who drove you to

16     the meeting in Pale that the Greek ministers attended, or is that another

17     driver?

18        A.   It's a different driver.  When we went to Pale where the Greek

19     foreign and defence ministers were present, I was driven by a driver who

20     was in camouflage uniform and you have footage to that effect.

21        Q.   Right.  And I think we agree he was in camouflage uniform with a

22     red beret and had an automatic rifle; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And there were three or four other similarly dressed men with you

25     when you arrived at that meeting, not necessarily in your vehicle, but

Page 14831

 1     accompanying you, is that also correct?

 2        A.   That's right.

 3        Q.   But you didn't understand this group of three or four men wearing

 4     red berets and camouflage uniforms to be a unit; is that correct?

 5        A.   I understood them to be a security detail.

 6        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to turn now to the --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, security provided by whom or by what?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The security provided by the

 9     State Security Service of the Republic of Serbia.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. FARR:  I'm just going to play a short clip.  This is from

13     P2977.  The clip is from 30 minutes to 31 minutes of that video which is

14     V000-7024 but I am going to ask actually that we just play through

15     30 minutes and 30 seconds, please.  And sorry, can I say this should be

16     played without sound, there may be subtitles, but we are not relying on

17     them, we just want the witness to look at the picture.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MR. FARR:

20        Q.   Sir, the images we've just seen show your arrival at the meeting

21     in Pale that the Greek ministers attended; correct?

22        A.   That's correct.

23             MR. FARR:  And can we now play from this point to 31 minutes,

24     please.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 14832

 1             MR. FARR:

 2        Q.   Sir, are you able to say whether the rest of the footage that we

 3     just saw from 30 minutes and 30 seconds to 31 minutes was also from the

 4     time of the hostage crisis?

 5        A.   The beginning of the film shows us leaving Pale.  Mr. Simatovic

 6     and I were seated in the back of the jeep.

 7        Q.   What about the footage of Mr. Stanisic getting in a helicopter,

 8     was that from the time of the hostage negotiations, are you able to say?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to turn now to the negotiations surrounding the

11     release of the hostages.  You indicated in your statement that

12     Mr. Simatovic was present during the negotiations with the VRS leadership

13     in Han Pijesak but you didn't say whether he was present during the

14     negotiations with the political leaders in Bijeljina.  Do you recall

15     whether Mr. Simatovic was present for those negotiations as well?

16        A.   I can't remember exactly if Mr. Simatovic was present in

17     Bijeljina.  I do know, however, that he accompanied Mr. Stanisic and me

18     to see General Mladic in Han Pijesak and that from there we went on to

19     Pale.

20        Q.   You indicated that Babic and Martic were both present in

21     Bijeljina when you went to meet Karadzic and Krajisnik.  Do you agree

22     that this shows there was close co-operation between the political

23     leaders of the RS and the RSK?

24        A.   That's right.

25        Q.   You also indicated that they were discussing the possibility of

Page 14833

 1     uniting the RS and RSK at the time.  Is it correct that this was part of

 2     an ultimate goal or plan that all Serbs live in one state?

 3        A.   Your conclusion is too comprehensive, all Serbs in one state.  I

 4     would limit this to the point when a decision was taken that

 5     Republika Srpska should unite with the Republic of the Serbian Krajina.

 6     At that point the relations between the leadership of the

 7     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the political leaderships of the

 8     Republic of Serbian Krajina and Republika Srpska were quite troubled.

 9     The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had introduced sanctions.  As we

10     arrived in Bijeljina, as you, yourself, said and I stated myself, we

11     found Mr. Babic and Martic there from the Republic of the

12     Serbian Krajina, as well as Mr. Krajisnik and Karadzic from

13     Republika Srpska.

14             Mr. Stanisic -- may I continue?  Or?

15        Q.   I think you've answered my question at this point unless the

16     Chamber requires more information.  Thank you.

17        A.   Very well.

18        Q.   I'd like to turn now to the negotiations with Karadzic.

19     Mr. Jordash played you a video of an interview with Mr. Karadzic

20     yesterday in which Mr. Karadzic said -- well, he was asked how the

21     Serbian leadership managed to persuade him to release the hostages and

22     his answer in part was:  "... by suggestions and incentives and that's

23     why we have accepted the suggestions of President Milosevic."  Now, it

24     seems to me in your testimony yesterday you talked about suggestions that

25     Mr. Stanisic gave but you didn't mention anything about incentives he

Page 14834

 1     provided, and I want to explore that.

 2             At page 39 and 40 of yesterday's transcript, you indicated that

 3     Mr. Karadzic asked for logistical support from Serbia but that you

 4     couldn't promise anything but you also said that you couldn't say what

 5     kind of logistical support he was asking for because you were not present

 6     during all of the conversations.  So, in fact, as far as you know, it's

 7     entirely possible that Mr. Karadzic requested military support from

 8     Jovica Stanisic in the form of Special Police Units or paramilitary

 9     units.  You can't exclude that possibility, can you?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

11             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I think it's a slightly unfair or if not

12     unfair then unhelpful question.  I mean, the witness can't exclude

13     anything if he doesn't know.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  And it's not --

15             MR. FARR:  I suppose -- as I understood the witness's evidence,

16     he was purporting to tell us everything, as I understood it, that were

17     the reasons that Mr. Stanisic used to persuade the Bosnian Serb

18     leadership.  If we agree that there may have been incentives that this

19     witness doesn't know about, then I'm happy with that.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's -- is that something we would have to

21     explore, either the witness knows anything about incentives or he doesn't

22     know anything about incentives.  Now, if he doesn't know about

23     incentives, then how would he be in a position to exclude, until, of

24     course, he would have very specific confirmation of there never having

25     been any incentives.  Now, usually if - but this is common knowledge - if

Page 14835

 1     someone says five times that there were no incentives, some people start

 2     asking themselves whether there were any incentives.  So, therefore, the

 3     witness says he doesn't know about it, therefore, I would say, logically,

 4     unless he has any specific reason to say not only that he has no

 5     knowledge about it, but that he has knowledge that there were no

 6     incentives, and then of course he should be invited to tell us on what

 7     this knowledge that there were no incentives is based.  If such a thing

 8     doesn't come up, then of course the witness cannot exclude any

 9     possibility, as no one could.

10             Mr. Farr, is this -- my analysis of the situation if that is

11     understood and accepted both by Mr. Jordash and by you, Mr. Farr, then we

12     can proceed.

13             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, I think the issue I was trying to get is

14     exactly what you've raised.  Does the witness have any specific reason --

15     specific knowledge.  If he has no --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you should not ask him whether he can exclude

17     further possibility, but then you should ask the witness whether he has

18     any specific knowledge which would give him a basis to conclude that

19     there no incentives were used.  That's then the question you would like

20     to put to the witness.

21             MR. FARR:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And Mr. Jordash you would have no problem with such

23     a question?

24             MR. JORDASH:  No, and --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's see whether the witness --

Page 14836

 1             Do you have any specific knowledge which would allow you to

 2     conclude that incentives did not play a role whatsoever?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I truly have no knowledge of it.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then let's proceed.

 5             MR. FARR:

 6        Q.   May I just clarify that that answer applies to both the political

 7     and the military leadership of the RS; is that correct?

 8        A.   [In English] I don't understand.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the question was unspecific.  That is, if

10     you say if you have no specific information on the basis of which you can

11     positively state that there were no incentives that would be both true

12     for the military leaders and for the political leaders, is that -- I see

13     you are nodding yes.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry to rise to my feet.  I hadn't appreciated

16     that it's part of the Prosecution case that there were incentives and, as

17     yet, the Prosecution haven't indicated what their case is on this issue,

18     so I just put that on the record.  I don't know whether the Prosecution

19     allege military incentives.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr.

21             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, I believe in our 98 bis submissions we

22     did indicate that it's our case that there's a linkage between

23     Mr. Stanisic's presence in Bosnia in this time in May and June of 1995

24     and events that relate to units that we say he is associated with at a

25     later period.

Page 14837

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And the incentives, you then understand the

 2     incentives to be continuation of activities of a unit?  I would not

 3     consider this to be an incentive, but ...

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Or if I may say so adequate notice at the Rule 98

 5     stage.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's -- I suggest you have put it on the

 7     record, Mr. Jordash.  Let's proceed.

 8             Mr. Farr.

 9             MR. FARR:  Can we please have P942 on the screen.

10        Q.   Sir, I'd like to turn now to some of the reasons for the hostages

11     release.

12             Sir, that is document entitled:  "Decision regarding the

13     strategic goals of the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina."  It

14     comes from the Official Gazette of the Serbian People in B&H, which

15     indicates that the decision was made by the session of the Assembly of

16     the Serbian people in B&H held on 12 May 1992.  It lists six strategic

17     goals including:

18             "1.  Border separation of the state from the other two national

19     communities.

20             2.  Corridor between Semberija and Krajina.

21             3.  Creation of the corridor in the valley of Drina River,

22     meaning elimination of the Drina River as the border between Serbian

23     states."

24             Did you ever hear of these six strategic goals?

25        A.   This is the first time I've seen this document.  Besides, I did


Page 14838

 1     live in the Republic of Serbia.  I cannot possibly comment on something

 2     that is a decision of the leadership of Republika Srpska.

 3        Q.   My question was just whether you had ever heard of these either

 4     in a public speech by Mr. Krajisnik or Mr. Karadzic, through the media or

 5     in your personal contact with those men other otherwise, have you heard

 6     of the six strategic goals of the Bosnian Serbs?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Sir, do you agree with me that the Contact Group plan offered the

 9     chance to consolidate and legalise gains made by the Serb side in the war

10     in Bosnia; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And is it, in fact, the reason that Milosevic and Stanisic wanted

13     to have the hostages released was because the hostage-taking jeopardised

14     this opportunity to consolidate and legalise these claims because it

15     jeopardised the Contact Group talks; is that also correct?

16        A.   Precisely so, yes.

17             MR. FARR:  Can we please move into private session, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14839











11 Pages 14839-14840 redacted. Private session.
















Page 14841

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10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.


Page 14842

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Could I just inquire as to the page numbers that my

 3     learned friend wants to rely upon in 6303.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr.

 5             MR. FARR:  It's Milosevic's speech on page 6 in English.  Well,

 6     in any event, I believe it begins on page 6.  We'd like to have the whole

 7     of the speech.  Unfortunately in my notes, I don't have the last page

 8     but --

 9             MR. JORDASH:  That particular speech finishes on page 17.  Is

10     that ...?

11             MR. FARR:  That's it, yeah.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  11 pages to read, Mr. Jordash.  Please proceed.

14             MR. FARR:

15        Q.   Sir, there's just one thing I neglected to asked you earlier when

16     we were talking about co-operation with the CIA.  I assume you agree with

17     me that the fact that a person or a government co-operates with the CIA

18     doesn't necessarily mean that that person or government has never

19     committed any crimes?

20        A.   If you say so, I agree.

21        Q.   All right.  I'd now like to turn to the awards ceremony at Kula.

22     In page 72 of your statement, you say that you were in charge of protocol

23     which you define as who stood where and in what order the programme would

24     go on.  Did you have any responsibilities related to arranging awards for

25     the people who received awards?

Page 14843

 1        A.   No.  If I may say so, I was the supervisor of the protocol which

 2     means that I had already received paperwork prepared in advance and on

 3     that a basis I constructed the whole protocol.

 4        Q.   So you received in advance the names of the people who were to

 5     receive awards and of the other people involved in the ceremony; is that

 6     correct?

 7        A.   That is correct.

 8        Q.   And you were actually present on the day of the ceremony, is that

 9     also correct?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   And, in fact, at one point in the proceedings, you called out the

12     names of the people who were receiving awards, as they received their

13     awards from Mr. Stanisic; is that also correct?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   I would now like to show a series of short clips from the Kula

16     video but before I do one more question.  In paragraph 84 of your

17     statement, you say of Mr. Stanisic:  "I know how he behaves and reacts.

18     For instance, he never yelled if he was angry."

19             Is it fair to say that he is a person who tends not to show much

20     emotion whether positive or negative?

21        A.   As for this specific instance, I would say that I have to admit,

22     I didn't include it in my statement.  However, after I gave it quite a

23     lot of thought, I think that he wasn't physically capable --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please rephrase his answer.

25     The interpreters couldn't understand.

Page 14844

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat your last answer because the

 2     interpreters had difficulties in hearing you.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that apart from being

 4     angry about probably some other things relating to the protocol, I also

 5     think that he was suffering from some medical condition at the same time.

 6             MR. FARR:

 7        Q.   I'm not asking about a specific instance.  I'm asking in general,

 8     is he someone who didn't tend to show strong emotion, whether positive or

 9     negative?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. FARR:  Okay.  We will now look at a series of clips from the

12     Kula video which has been admitted as P61.  The first clip begins at 53

13     seconds and ends at 1 minute and 20 seconds.  The transcript has been

14     marked as "Kula clip 1" for the booths and I will ask Mr. Laugel to just

15     play that clip through.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Veterans of the special operations

18     unit of the Republic of Serbia State Security lined up for your

19     inspection.  Colonel Zika Ivanovic reporting.

20             Stanisic:  How are you?  Good.  Am I one of them?

21             ZI:  Certainly not one of the veterans.

22             JS:  /inaudible/ excuse me?  Veterans /inaudible/."

23             MR. FARR:

24        Q.   Sir, were you present at that point?

25        A.   Yes, I was standing nearby.

Page 14845

 1        Q.   We've just seen Mr. Stanisic shake hands with someone who

 2     introduced himself at Zika Ivanovic.  Do you know that person?

 3        A.   No, that was the first time that I saw him.

 4        Q.   Is there any -- as a matter of protocol, is there any

 5     significance to the fact that he is the person who presented the other

 6     veterans?  Did that indicate some specific status or importance?

 7        A.   I think that is -- was their decision to decide who would be the

 8     person to report.

 9        Q.   You didn't have any involvement in that in your facilitation of

10     the protocol?

11        A.   No, no.

12        Q.   He says that he will be presenting the veterans of the unit.

13     Doesn't that imply that these men had combat experience and therefore

14     that the unit existed before you say it started in 1996?

15        A.   I personally think that what happened here was a kind of

16     misunderstanding of the meaning of the word "veteran".  I would prefer to

17     refer to them as men who had specific skills and knowledge that were

18     valuable in the course of the training of the unit as a whole.

19             MR. FARR:  Can we now play the next clip which begins at 9

20     minutes --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Can I ask some clarification in relation to that

22     last answer.  You rephrase more or less the qualification of veterans.

23     Do you know any of those who were present at the time?  Do you know any

24     of the members of the unit or at least those who were present being

25     presented as veterans?

Page 14846

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd like to ask you to instruct me

 2     whether I'm allowed to name any names with regard to your question?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  If they are still at this moment active, then we'd

 4     have to move into private session.  Perhaps out of an abundance of

 5     caution, we should -- perhaps you do not know.  Or are they all former

 6     people who do not serve in the service anymore?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they are not in the service

 8     anymore, the ones that I knew.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those are the men that I knew

11     through support because we trained judo together, such as

12     Mr. Rajo Bozovic, and later we socialised through football clubs.  I also

13     knew Zvezdan Jovanovic and Nikola Loncar.  Zvezdan Jovanovic was that

14     person opening the door to the jeep when I was alighting from the jeep at

15     Pale.  And as I said, Nikola Loncar as well.  So these were the three

16     that I was acquainted with.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  The people you are now describing are the ones who

18     were dressed and in camouflage uniform with red berets?  Or?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  They were wearing

20     camouflage uniforms.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  At this event in 1995?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mid-1995.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             Mr. Farr, please proceed.

25             MR. FARR:

Page 14847

 1        Q.   Sir, correct me if I'm wrong, but did you mention in your

 2     statement that you knew Rajo Bozovic and Nikola Loncar?  I don't recall

 3     that.

 4        A.   I think that I did mention that in my statement.  I think that I

 5     was asked about specific names.  I cannot recall, however.  Maybe we can

 6     look and check.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  But you mentioned Mr. Bozovic.  Did you know him

 8     from before this Kula ceremony?  Or ...?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  We were both training judo.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I read from -- I read from paragraph 78, also in

11     relation to 77.  77 says:  "At the time of the Kula ceremony the JSO was

12     an anti-terrorist unit but I'm not sure how many members it had."  Then

13     you say that you saw Legija several times in Kula.  "I met Rajo Bozovic

14     for the first time in Kula.  I had not known him beforehand."

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw Rajo Bozovic for the first

16     time in Kula.  Maybe that's the error.  Because I didn't know that he was

17     a member of that unit.  I used to know him from the period when he was a

18     civilian.  Perhaps that's what this error is about.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I asked you when you referred to Mr. Bozovic as one

20     of the veterans, where you say they were not real veterans, I asked you

21     did you know him from before this Kula ceremony.  Then you said, yes, we

22     were both training judo.  Whereas it seems that from paragraph 77 and 78

23     you say that you didn't know him and you met him for the first time in

24     Kula.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I say that it is possible that

Page 14848

 1     there was a misunderstanding.  I understood that I was asked whether I

 2     saw him for the first time in uniform at that celebration and before that

 3     I had never been to Kula.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  So your answer was in the understanding of my

 5     question being whether you had seen Mr. Bozovic any earlier in uniform,

 6     that's how you understood my question, and then you said -- no, my

 7     question was simply did you know him before the Kula ceremony, and you

 8     said yes.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  In paragraph 78, you say:

11             "I met Rajo Bozovic for the first time in Kula."  And that's not

12     only what you said, but you said:

13             "I had not known him beforehand."  There's no reference

14     whatsoever as to whether you knew him in uniform or without a uniform.

15     There's nothing in there.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I say, there might have been a

17     misunderstanding.  What I meant was that I had never seen him in a

18     uniform and as a member of the unit.  That's what I meant to say.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Farr.

20             MR. FARR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Sir, when you gave your -- when you gave your statement, one of

22     the interviewers was a woman who you spoke with in Serbian.  Of course

23     you also speak English very well as we've heard.  Can you explain how

24     it's possible that your statement that you saw Rajo Bozovic in uniform

25     for the first time in Kula made it into your statement as "I had not

Page 14849

 1     known him before then"?

 2        A.   Well, I think I already explained that in my exchange with the

 3     presiding judge.

 4             MR. FARR:  Can we now play the next clip which begins at

 5     9 minutes and 3 seconds and ends at 9 minutes and 43 seconds.  The

 6     transcript has been marked as "Kula clip 2" for the booths.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "ZI:  Mr. President, veterans of the

 9     special operations unit of the Republic of Serbia state security are

10     lined up for inspection.  Colonel Zika Ivanovic reporting.

11             SM:  Hello, Ivanovic.

12             ZI:  Mr. President, allow me to introduce the unit's veteran

13     officers.  Mr. President, Colonel Radojica Bozovic.

14             Milosevic:  Hello, Bozovic, I read those reports of yours.

15             RB:  Thank you.  /inaudible/ God forbid there should be more of

16     them, but should there be, I'm here."

17             MR. FARR:

18        Q.   We've just heard Milosevic say to Radojica Bozovic that he has

19     read some of his reports.  Did you ever read or see any of these reports

20     of Bozovic that Milosevic refers to?

21        A.   Never.

22        Q.   And the fact that these -- that he was writing these reports is

23     not something that ever came up in your conversations with him during

24     your acquaintance?

25        A.   No.  As I already said, we didn't see each other that frequently.

Page 14850

 1        Q.   Sir, the fact that Milosevic has read these reports shows that he

 2     is better informed about these people in this unit than you were;

 3     correct?

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry to object, but it's an invitation to

 5     speculate.  He is asking the witness to look into the minds not only of

 6     Bozovic but also Milosevic and not only look into their minds but

 7     conclude that they were thinking the reports were about a unit.

 8             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, one of the premises of this witness's

 9     evidence, as I understood it, was that he was able to look into minds and

10     know what people were thinking about and part of that involves a

11     contention that he was -- that he was able to know what Mr. Stanisic was

12     thinking by watching him while Frenki gave a speech.  He is purporting to

13     have knowledge that I think --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  So you say if he can read the mind of others which

15     is, of course, not what we expect the witness to tell us about first, I

16     will respond to that by asking him similar questions and to read minds of

17     even other persons.  I think let's stick to the facts.  From the words of

18     Mr. Milosevic it seems that he had read the reports.  Whereas this

19     witness says I've not read the reports.  That distinction may be clear.

20     We've heard from this witness what he knew about the unit or may not have

21     known about the unit, what the limits were of his knowledge and his

22     activities, and to know whether Mr. Milosevic knew more, we would have to

23     know what his knowledge was apart from this one specific point about

24     having read the reports.  Let's stick to the facts and move on.

25             MR. FARR:

Page 14851

 1        Q.   Sir, in this clip we've seen Zika Ivanovic, Radojica Bozovic and

 2     other men dressed in camouflage uniforms with red berets.  Those were

 3     other uniforms that you saw Mr. Simatovic wearing during the hostage

 4     crises and that you saw other members of your DB security wearing during

 5     the hostage crisis; is that correct?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7             MR. FARR:  Can we now please play the next clip which runs from

 8     13 minutes and 35 seconds to 14 minutes and 10 seconds, and the

 9     transcript is marked "Kula clip 3" for the booths.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "One of its most recent successes

12     was its engagement in the freeing of 400 UNPROFOR hostages in

13     Republika Srpska, which was met with a very positive response by the

14     international community and made our country's position stronger."

15             MR. FARR:

16        Q.   Sir, this is a clip from Mr. Simatovic's speech at the Kula

17     awards ceremony.  Were you actually present when Mr. Simatovic gave that

18     speech?

19        A.   Yes, I was, and you can see me in the video-clip.

20        Q.   We've just heard Mr. Simatovic say that the unit participated in

21     the release of the UNPROFOR hostages.  You know that Zvezdan Jovanovic

22     was present at the time of the release of the UNPROFOR hostages and you

23     also know him to be a member of the unit in 1997 at the time of this

24     ceremony; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 14852

 1        Q.   We also just heard Mr. Simatovic say that the release of the

 2     UNPROFOR hostages "met with a very positive response in the international

 3     community and made our country's position stronger."  That confirms that

 4     the goal of the hostage release was to strengthen Serbia's position,

 5     doesn't it?

 6        A.   Among other things, yes.  The basic objective was to rescue the

 7     prisoners and to send them back to their units.  I wouldn't put the

 8     position of Serbia in front of that or as something more important than

 9     that.

10        Q.   Do you agree that the other considerations you've mentioned were

11     not mentioned in Mr. Simatovic's speech?

12        A.   Are you referring to what I just said?

13        Q.   In other words, Mr. Simatovic indicated that the release of the

14     hostages strengthened Serbia's position?

15        A.   That's correct.  I only added to that what was my view.  I

16     apologise.

17             MR. FARR:  Can we please play the next clip which runs from 15

18     minutes 21 seconds to 15 minutes 52 seconds.  This clip we will play

19     without sound but before we start --

20        Q.   Sir, this is a short clip in which the cameraman pans across the

21     group assembled in the room.  I'm going to ask you to look for yourself

22     and note the time-code, that is the minutes and seconds at the bottom

23     right-hand corner of the screen at the moment you appear.  Do you

24     understand that?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 14853

 1             MR. FARR:  So let's start playing the clip and we'll play

 2     through.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             MR. FARR:

 5        Q.   Sir, did you see yourself in that clip?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Did you note the time-code?

 8        A.   No, unfortunately.

 9        Q.   Perhaps we can play it again and you can just tell us to stop at

10     the moment when you see yourself?

11        A.   Very well.  I apologise.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 43.4 and ending at 52 something.

14             MR. FARR:

15        Q.   And, in fact, you were standing just behind President Milosevic;

16     is that correct?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   Okay.  In paragraph 75 of your statement you say that a lot of

19     Mr. Simatovic's speech sounded, you say:  "A lot of it sounded incredible

20     and impossible to me, both then and now."  You give a few examples of

21     things that sounded impossible to you and we'll come to those, but before

22     that, I just want to ask you this.  In the very next paragraph you say:

23             [As read] "I have never talked with Stanisic about the special

24     operations unit, JSO, or any other unit.  In fact, I did not talk about

25     anything else but about the above-mentioned topics regarding

Page 14854

 1     international co-operation."

 2             Sir, Mr. Simatovic's speech was precisely about this unit that

 3     you say you never discussed.  According to your own evidence, you have no

 4     way of knowing whether Mr. Simatovic's speech was true or not; is that

 5     correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And just because something in Mr. Simatovic's speech sounded

 8     unlikely or even impossible to you, that doesn't mean it didn't happen;

 9     correct?

10        A.   That could be one way of putting it.

11        Q.   Sorry, I didn't understand that answer.  My question is --

12             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, I'm not sure I understood the question

13     either.  I mean --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think the question in itself is not clear

15     but whether it's a question you can answer, that's a different matter.

16     The problem is combining "unlikely" and "impossible".  If I consider

17     something impossible, that can be on grounds which also demonstrate that

18     it cannot be true.  If, for example, I say that at 11.00 this day,

19     although I was not outside of this courtroom, that it would be impossible

20     it to be outside being night, then I would think that you could fairly

21     say that this impossibility is of a kind which allows to conclude that it

22     cannot be true.  Now, the word "impossible" and "unlikely" are used in

23     various ways.  So, therefore, if something is unlikely then that

24     expression in itself already hints at that it's not impossible but not

25     likely that it's true.  If you use the word "impossible," you would have

Page 14855

 1     to further explore what is the basis for a judgement that something is

 2     impossible.

 3             Now, sometimes you use the word "impossible" whether it mainly

 4     refers to a highly unlikely.  In those circumstances of course, you

 5     couldn't exclude for the possibility that it nevertheless occurred.  So

 6     if we want to -- we want to be assisted by the information the witness

 7     gives, I think we should further explore what he meant with "unlikely"

 8     and "impossible," and by asking further questions that may shed some

 9     light on what he said in his statement.  Please proceed, Mr. Farr.

10             Mr. Jordash, does this more or less explain -- of course I'm not

11     here to explain the questions of Mr. Farr, but at the same time I think

12     I'm listening to the questions and if I have a certain understanding, I

13     just put it to you to see whether that is the way you understand the

14     question as well.  Meanwhile, the witness may then also understand what

15     an ordinary person thinks the question was about.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. FARR:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And I think I'll just deal

18     with this with specifics.

19        Q.   The first thing that you said sounded incredible or impossible

20     was "a unit command and intelligence team of 5.000 people" and the other

21     thing was 26 training centres.  So we'll start with the 5.000 people.

22             MR. FARR:  And if we could please have the next clip which runs

23     from 14 minutes and 52 seconds to 15 minutes and 18 seconds.  That

24     transcript has been marked as "Kula clip 5" for the booths.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 14856

 1             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "From 12 October 1991, in battles

 2     with armed Croatian police forces in the zones of Benkovac, Stari Gospic,

 3     Plitvice, Glina, Kostajnica and others, the unit provided important

 4     support for the liberation of all areas of the Republic of

 5     Serbian Krajina.  Around 5.000 soldiers were engaged in these battles and

 6     their actions were co-ordinated by the unit command and their

 7     intelligence team from the 2nd Administration."

 8             MR. FARR:

 9        Q.   Sir, I think that the comment in your statement may be a result

10     of a misunderstanding of what Simatovic said, and that's what I want to

11     address with you.  What Mr. Simatovic said was:

12             [As read] "The unit provided important support in the liberation

13     of all areas of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  Around 5.000 soldiers

14     were engaged in these battles and their actions were co-ordinated by the

15     unit command and an intelligence team from the 2nd Administration."

16             Now, do you agree with me that Mr. Simatovic did not state that

17     the unit command and intelligence team had 5.000 people, he said that the

18     unit command and intelligence team co-ordinated the actions of 5.000

19     soldiers?  That's what Mr. Simatovic actually said; correct?

20        A.   From what I was able to hear, Mr. Simatovic said that there had

21     been co-ordination.  5.000 soldiers does not necessarily mean 5.000

22     members of our unit.  What my understanding of it was 5.000 soldiers

23     overall.

24        Q.   And, in fact, those soldiers could have been members of the JNA.

25     They could have been Martic's Police or something else, all of that is

Page 14857

 1     possible based on your understanding of what Mr. Simatovic said.

 2        A.   Well, I don't want to speculate really.  Truly, I don't know the

 3     answer to your question.  I wasn't familiar with these issues.  I merely

 4     found this high number illogical.

 5        Q.   Sir, just to be clear, I wasn't asking you to confirm that, in

 6     fact, members of Martic's Police or the JNA were co-ordinated by members

 7     of this unit, just that Mr. Simatovic's speech could be understood that

 8     way, that's what he says; correct?

 9        A.   It depends on how a person understands this.

10        Q.   Okay.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me try to get matters clear.  In your statement

12     we read when you say that some sounded incredible and impossible, "for

13     instance, a unit command and intelligence team of 5.000 people."  You

14     give that as an example of what you considered to be incredible and/or

15     impossible.  The language used in your statement seems to refer to the

16     unit that is command and intelligence consisting of 5.000 people.  Now,

17     we've listened to what was said and Mr. Farr has drawn your attention to

18     the fact that 5.000 soldiers would not have necessarily been part of the

19     unit but their action were co-ordinated, and ...

20             Now, the explanation you give now, the 5.000 not necessarily

21     being part of the unit seems to be different from what we read in your

22     statement where at least the language used suggests that your judgement,

23     that it's incredible or impossible is based on 5.000 people in the unit

24     command and/or intelligence.  Is my understanding correct that in your

25     statement you may have based your opinion or your judgement on, perhaps,

Page 14858

 1     a different understanding of the words spoken than you are giving us now?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so.  I am a layman where

 3     these issues are concerned and I probably interpreted what I heard

 4     differently.  If that was the case, I apologise.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it's not a matter of apologies.  We want to

 6     clarify that.  Would that also mean that since your attention is now

 7     drawn to what those 5.000 soldiers stand for, that the incredibility and

 8     the impossibility is not found any more in the number of 5.000 soldiers?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It still sounds incredible and

10     impossible to me speaking as a layman.  Bearing in mind the assets we had

11     at our disposal in Serbia, how would it have been possible for us to

12     maintain and take care of such numbers?  I repeat that I'm speaking as a

13     layman.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Taking care in this context meaning co-ordinating

15     the activities of 5.000 soldiers?  You would say that your assets that

16     were at your disposal would not from a layman's view not allow to

17     co-ordinate the activities of 5.000 soldiers; is that how I have to

18     understand it?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Farr.

21             MR. FARR:

22        Q.   Sir, the second thing that you indicated that you found

23     incredible or impossible was the existence of 26 training camps.  And for

24     that I think we need the next clip which runs from 15 minutes 52 seconds

25     to 16 minutes and 19 seconds.  Transcripts have been marked for both

Page 14859

 1     booths as "Kula clip 6."

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Twenty-six training camps for

 4     Special Police Units for Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian

 5     Krajina were also formed in that period.  In the Republic of the Serbian

 6     Krajina, in Golubic, Dinara, Obrovac, Gracac, Plitvice, Sumarice,

 7     Petrova Gora, Licki Osik, Benkovac, Lezimir, Ilok, and Vukovar.  And in

 8     the RSK, in Banja Luka, Doboj, Samac, Brcko, Bijeljina, Trebinje,

 9     Visegrad, Ozren and Mrkonjic Grad.

10             MR. FARR:  We'll now skip slightly ahead to a clip after

11     Mr. Simatovic's speech.  This clip begins at 20 minutes and 42 seconds,

12     and it runs to 20 minutes 56 seconds.  The transcripts have been marked

13     as "Kula clip 7" for the booths.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "These are the places where we

16     /inaudible/."

17             MR. FARR:

18        Q.   Sir, that second clip comes shortly after the end of

19     Mr. Simatovic's speech to the group.  In the clip we saw Mr. Stanisic

20     showing something hanging on the wall to Mr. Milosevic and according to

21     the transcript of the video that's been admitted into evidence, we heard

22     Mr. Stanisic say, "these are the places where we," and then the remainder

23     was inaudible to the transcriber.  You were in this room in the Kula

24     camp, do you agree with me the object Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Milosevic are

25     looking at is a large metallic map of the former Yugoslavia with numerous

Page 14860

 1     locations marked with the wolf symbol of the JSO?

 2        A.   I agree.

 3        Q.   We'll now switch briefly to a clip from another video.  This clip

 4     is 65 ter 4787.3.  It comes from 65 ter 4787 which is the video with

 5     ERN V000-3551.  This video contains footage of a press conference held

 6     following the JSO's blockade of the Belgrade highway in 2001 and this

 7     clip has no dialogue, so there's no transcript.  I'll ask Mr. Laugel to

 8     start playing the clip and to pause at 20 minutes and 47 seconds.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10        Q.   Sir, this video comes from a later period but it appears that we

11     were looking at the same map that Milosevic and Stanisic were looking at

12     in the previous video; is that correct?

13        A.   I can tell that it's a map of Yugoslavia, but I can't confirm

14     that it is identical to the other one when it comes to the items marked.

15             MR. FARR:  Okay.  I'll now ask Mr. Laugel to keep playing and

16     pause again at 20 minutes and 51 seconds.

17        Q.   Sir, the cameraman has apparently zoomed in on a portion of this

18     map.  Is this what the map looked like when you had a chance to see it in

19     1997?  Is this the way in which the locations were marked?

20        A.   I can't tell that really.  I can't make it out.  To tell you the

21     truth, I didn't even examine the map in any detail when I first came to

22     Kula.  It was the first visit to Kula.

23        Q.   In the shot we have now, we see several locations marked,

24     including Golubic, Dinara, Obrovac, Gracac and Benkovac.  Now, those are

25     all locations mentioned by Mr. Simatovic as locations of training camps

Page 14861

 1     in his speech.  Does that cause you to change your opinion that the

 2     existence of 26 training camps was impossible or incredible?

 3        A.   I repeated that the opinion I proffered was a layman's -- I

 4     misspoke and said logical, it was a layman's opinion and I didn't hear or

 5     know anything about the training camps during the visit to Kula.

 6        Q.   Are you able to confirm that the wolf's head emblem that we see

 7     at each of those locations is the symbol of the JSO?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. FARR:  Can yes now continue playing the video and pause again

10     at 21 minutes and 3 seconds.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             MR. FARR:

13        Q.   Sir, it appears that the cameraman has now panned north on the

14     map and we see a different group of locations marked.  Those include

15     Plitvice and Petrova Gora, among others, which are also locations

16     mentioned by Mr. Simatovic as the locations of training camps?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's try to cut matters short here.  Did I

18     understand your testimony well, Mr. Dragicevic, that the 26 camps to be

19     incredible or impossible was not based on any knowledge, just it sounded

20     a lot, is that more or less what your testimony is?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are quite right.  I did

22     reiterate that it was a layman's opinion.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, not based on any specific knowledge about the

24     existence of camps or what the number of camps you would expect to be

25     there, just 26 is a lot and, therefore, I considered it incredible and/or

Page 14862

 1     impossible, is that -- please proceed, Mr. Farr, without -- Then we don't

 2     have to go through the whole of the matter.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so.

 4             MR. FARR:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm also looking at the clock at the same time --

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry to jump to my feet.  I was wondering if I

 7     might address Your Honours briefly in the absence of the witness

 8     concerning an aspect of the cross-examination.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At the same time I was looking at the clock.

10     How much time would it take and would Mr. Stanisic prefer to have it done

11     after the break?  Or?

12             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I will only be 3 minutes but my learned

13     friend may wish to respond.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then perhaps he takes the break to think about

15     what you are going to address.

16             Mr. Dragicevic, we'll take a break but there's one matter we'll

17     hear first in your absence but if you would like to follow the usher at

18     this moment, I would like to see you back after the break.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

21             MR. JORDASH:  The issue is only this:  It's about notice.

22     Previously at Your Honours, page transcript 12571 there was an exchange

23     in relation to what the Prosecution's case was as a regards the unit

24     command and the 5.000 men allegedly controlled by the unit command.  I

25     asked the Trial Chamber to require the Prosecution to state whether they


Page 14863

 1     relied upon that allegation, whether that was a part of the Prosecution

 2     case.  And in relation to that, Your Honours asked the Prosecution to

 3     detail what their case was and the Prosecution stated at transcript 12571

 4     in relation to a question they put to the witness they said this:  "Sir,

 5     I put it to you that in fact there were at least 5.000 soldiers that were

 6     engaged in battles in the fall of 1991 in the Krajina that were supplied

 7     weapons by the State Security Service of Serbia."

 8             That appeared to be the Prosecution's case at that point in time.

 9     Now we've had a series of questions put this witness which appear to

10     demonstrate that they have shifted their position once more and now are

11     suggesting, in fact, there was a unit command in charge of 5.000 men.

12     Now, I don't know what the Prosecution case is now, whether it is that,

13     in fact, 5.000 men were supplied weapons or 5.000 men were controlled by

14     unit command from the DB.  So I put it on the record that we don't know

15     what the Prosecution case is in relation to this enormous part of the

16     Prosecution case.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let me again tell you how I understood

18     matters, and then to see whether that there was a -- that the unit

19     command and the intelligence of the unit played a role in co-ordinating

20     and, perhaps, supplying material, not necessarily that there was a direct

21     command over those 5.000 soldiers, but I may have misunderstood the

22     evidence and that's the reason why I'm saying it in order to stand

23     corrected, if my understanding is wrong, and I think it's important that

24     the understanding of the Chamber of the evidence is the right one.

25             MR. JORDASH:  Perhaps I --

Page 14864

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  -- didn't put my point clearly.  We -- in short we

 3     asked the Prosecution to state whether it was their case that a unit

 4     command from the DB had control of 5.000 men in the battles which took

 5     place in the RSK in 1991.  My learned friend for the Prosecution,

 6     Mr. Weber, having been invited to state that, in fact, didn't state that

 7     but in fact stated something quite different, that the connection between

 8     the DB and the 5.000 men was that the DB had supplied weapons to those

 9     5.000 men.  No suggestion at that point that the DB was in control of or

10     co-ordinating those 5.000 men.  Supply of weapons was the issue.

11             My concern now is that we seem to have have reverted back to a

12     previous position, i.e., reliance upon the Kula speech by Mr. Simatovic

13     that in fact the 5.000 men were in some way co-ordinated by a unit

14     command from the DB.  That's our concern.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, can you immediately respond or would you

16     rather wait until after the break.

17             MR. FARR:  I'd like to take the break, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll take the break and resume at a

19     quarter to 1.00

20                           --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, any answer to Mr. Jordash?

23             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, this issue has been discussed and

24     litigated before.  I think the position is that the case is set out in

25     the indictment in the pre-trial brief.  The Chamber has made that

Page 14865

 1     observation in its decision and obviously the accused cannot be convicted

 2     for anything that is not set out in the indictment.  That's the charging

 3     instrument.  The case is complex by its nature and cannot be put to every

 4     single witness, particularly witness who do not have knowledge of a

 5     particular aspect.  So we would submit that its inappropriate to look at

 6     the cross-examination of a single witness to say that the Prosecution

 7     didn't put a particular point to the witness and, therefore, conclude

 8     that that operates to modify the indictment or the pre-trial brief.

 9             The case simply can't be derived from the questioning of a

10     witness.  So we would simply reiterate that the case is set out in the

11     indictment and the pre-trial brief and that's been the Chamber's

12     decision.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not a very direct answer to Mr. Jordash's

14     question because he wanted to know what exactly was the link between the

15     5.000 soldiers and the role of the unit.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Well, may I, it wasn't an answer at all to the

17     question, but my learned friend -- there isn't anything in the indictment

18     about a unit command controlling 5.000 men and there's nothing in the

19     pre-trial brief about that so we assume that that is not part of the

20     Prosecution case.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  I suggest that everyone reads carefully, you

22     including, Mr. Farr, not to continue a debate on the basis of this answer

23     because that doesn't seem to be -- that will not bear any fruit, but the

24     Chamber, of course, will also consider the matter, we have decided on the

25     matter earlier, not on this specific point, but in more general terms,


Page 14866

 1     and we'll give it some thoughts, this exchange between the parties at

 2     this moment.

 3             Since the witness is not in, I also take the opportunity to give

 4     a decision.  I take it that the booths have been provided with the text.

 5     I already indicate that I will not follow the text exactly in the second

 6     part.  I made some changes.

 7             It is a decision on the Stanisic Defence motion on the admission

 8     of two witness statements pursuant to Rule 92 bis.

 9             On the 5th of October of this year, the Stanisic Defence filed a

10     motion to add two witnesses to its witness list and to admit their

11     witness statements pursuant to Rule 92 Bis.

12             The motion also requested the admission of evidence of a third

13     witness pursuant to Rule 92 quater.  The Chamber will deal with this

14     third witness in a separate decision.

15             On the 19th of October, 2011, the Prosecution responded that it

16     did not oppose adding the two witnesses to the witness list, but

17     requested that they be called for cross-examination.

18             Considering in particular that Prosecution did not oppose the

19     request to add the two witnesses to the witness list, the Chamber grants

20     this part of the motion.  The Chamber considers that both witness

21     statements deal with the acts and conduct of the accused and, therefore,

22     denies the request of their admission pursuant to Rule 92 bis.

23             The witness whose statement is contained in Annex B of the motion

24     should be called for cross-examination.  The Chamber instructs the

25     Stanisic Defence to schedule this witness and inform the parties and the

Page 14867

 1     Chamber of the dates for testimony of this witness by the 14th of

 2     November 2011.

 3             As for the witness whose statement is contained in Annex A of the

 4     motion, the Chamber notes that an important part of his evidence relates

 5     to a highly-disputed issue and I'll just shortly summarise this issue.

 6     That is, the ability of Mr. Stanisic to perform his official functions

 7     during a commission -- during the work of a commission which has been

 8     linked several times in the evidence to Mr. Stanisic, and that that

 9     evidence in the statement appears to consist of conclusions based on the

10     witness's reading of certain materials, rather than on direct knowledge

11     of facts.

12             In addition, at least some of the material on which the witness

13     relies might be available to the Chamber already.  But under these

14     circumstances, the Chamber urges the Stanisic Defence to seriously

15     consider whether it wishes to call the witness, if it expects only to

16     elicit similar conclusions, and on a similar basis, as the ones found in

17     the statement.  The Chamber instructs the Stanisic Defence to report its

18     final position whether or not it will call that witness to report to the

19     parties and the Chamber by the 14th of November, 2011.

20             And this concludes the Chamber's decision in this respect.

21             We made it an oral decision also in order to speed up matters.

22             Yes, Mr. Jordash.

23             MR. JORDASH:  If I can just take the opportunity to deal with

24     other witness issues briefly.  DST-060 was supposed to be the next

25     witness.  He has indicated he doesn't want to come.  We are -- and he is


Page 14868

 1     adamant about that and we are considering today whether it is going to be

 2     at all fruitful to apply for a subpoena.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you may have noted from the decision of the

 4     Chamber that you asked for a subpoena already.  We were a bit hesitant

 5     because we were not yet sure that he didn't wish to come to The Hague,

 6     but that now apparently is clear and which would open the way to a

 7     subpoena more easily, whether you want to pursue -- whether you want to

 8     insist on calling the witness is, of course, a matter for you to decide.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.  We'll make a decision today, but given his

10     intransigence, and I use the word carefully, it's not clear that we will

11     apply for a subpoena.  But that does then leave the situation somewhat in

12     terms of witnesses for next week somewhat in difficulty.  The next

13     witness after that would have been DST-069 who is also subject to a

14     subpoena.  Your Honours, will, I think, know the one I'm talking about.

15     But I think given the time-scale, it may be that he or his employers are

16     not able to respond in time to have him here next week.  What I'm doing

17     now is having my investigator explore whether in fact, I'm just dealing

18     with this as I think of it, whether in fact the witness, a witness in

19     Annex B might be available for next week instead.  That's the situation,

20     we are trying to avoid any loss of court time but dealing with certain

21     difficulties which can largely come about because of DST-060 and his

22     overall unhelpful approach.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             Mr. Groome.

25             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, it may help, be of assistance to the

Page 14869

 1     Chamber to know that should Mr. Jordash apply for subpoena for DST-060,

 2     the Prosecution would not oppose it and would defer to the Chamber,

 3     should the Chamber advise sufficient grounds had been laid for the

 4     issuance of a subpoena.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, I cannot anticipate on what the decision

 6     of the Chamber will be.  At the same time, I can assure that if an

 7     application for a subpoena will be filed, that the Chamber will, also in

 8     view of the fact that the Prosecution has responded that it will not

 9     oppose, will deliver its decision at shortest notice.

10             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I think we will be coming back tomorrow

11     because I think Mr. Farr is travelling some distance and intends to

12     continue travelling, so I would seek to make the application orally

13     tomorrow at the earliest opportunity.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             And then let me just ...

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber commits itself to if a application for a

18     subpoena will be made tomorrow either to decide on the same day or not

19     later than Friday.

20             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Farr, if the witness has returned to the

22     courtroom, you will be ready to continue your cross-examination.

23             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, while he is being brought in I intended

24     to tender the last video shown, 4787.3.  That was the video of the map.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No objections?  Madam Registrar, the number

Page 14870

 1     would be?

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  4787.3 will receive number P3045, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P3045 is admitted into evidence.

 4             Mr. Jordash, I received notice that the ...

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Redacted statement of Witness DST-036 has been

 7     uploaded and released in e-court but redacted statements are not admitted

 8     into evidence, so I think the usual way is to file it, so just for you to

 9     know that uploading is fine but that's not the instruction of the Chamber

10     what to do with redacted statements.

11             MR. JORDASH:  Certainly.  Should we also file the summary of this

12     witness's evidence rather than read it out?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes, for the public, the public has not easy

14     access, so if there would be time tomorrow I would still ask you to read

15     it because we want to allow the public to follow the proceedings, rather

16     than to make applications for access to filed documents.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, you are ready?  Please proceed.

19             MR. FARR:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Just before I begin, I just

20     wanted to confirm that the pseudonym sheet not the pseudonym sheet that

21     the list of names associated with the numbers that the witness has been

22     referring to has been admitted; is that correct?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I think it was.

24             MR. FARR:  I must have missed that, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  If not, Madam Registrar will -- we know it was


Page 14871

 1     uploaded and I think it was admitted or was it not.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  It's certainly been uploaded.  I am not sure it's

 3     been admitted.  1D05259.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar will check.  If it has not been

 5     admitted yet, then the number for the list of names and numbers would be,

 6     Madam Registrar?

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  It was not admitted, Your Honours, so far, so the

 8     number for 1D5259 would be D509, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  D509 is admitted into evidence under seal.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. FARR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Sir, we'll now return to the Kula video.

13             MR. FARR:  Can we please play the clip now starting with 22

14     minutes 13 seconds and play through until 22 minutes and 40 seconds.  And

15     the transcript of this clip has been marked as "Kula clip 8" for the

16     booths.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "JS:  Mr. President, dear guests,

19     let us pay tribute to deputy minister Radovan Stojicic, Badza, by

20     observing a minute of silence.  Glory to him."

21             Soldiers:  Glory."

22             MR. FARR:

23        Q.   Sir, that was you we just saw standing beside Mr. Stanisic in

24     that clip; correct?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 14872

 1        Q.   And the transcript indicates that it was Mr. Stanisic that called

 2     for the minute of silence, is that correct or was it you?

 3        A.   It was Mr. Stanisic.

 4        Q.   As the protocol co-ordinator of the event, are you able to tell

 5     us why there was a minute of silence for Badza?

 6        A.   Mr. Radovan Stojicic, aka Badza, was deputy minister of the

 7     interior of the Republic of Serbia and was killed accidently in Belgrade.

 8        Q.   To your knowledge did he have a productive and co-operative

 9     relationship with Mr. Stanisic and with the Serbian DB?

10        A.   Both sections of the Ministry of the Interior, i.e., the public

11     security and the State Security Services had a very correct co-operation.

12             MR. FARR:  Can we now please play the clip beginning with 32

13     minutes and 24 seconds and ending at 32 minutes 37 seconds and there's no

14     dialogue in this clip so there is no transcript.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. FARR:

17        Q.   Sir, in this clip we just saw Milosevic and Stanisic standing

18     side by side watching television footage.  The title on the screen is

19     "Corridor."  Are you able to say whether this footage is related to

20     Operation Corridor in 1992?

21        A.   I know nothing about this because I wasn't part of that.

22        Q.   Do you know why Mr. Milosevic and Mr. Stanisic were watching that

23     footage together?

24        A.   I really couldn't tell you.

25             MR. FARR:  Could we now please have the clip beginning at

Page 14873

 1     33 minutes and 20 seconds and ending at 33 minutes and 57 seconds.  And

 2     the transcript of this portion has been marked as "Kula clip 9" for the

 3     booths.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             MR. FARR:  Apparently there's a technical problem with that clip

 6     so we will go on to the next one, which is the clip beginning at 42

 7     minutes and 20 seconds which and the transcript of that one has been

 8     marked as "Kula clip 10" for the booths.  Now I'm going to ask that this

 9     one be paused at 42 minutes and 36 seconds, so we'll start playing at

10     42 minutes and 20 seconds and pause at 42 minutes and 36 seconds.  We can

11     start.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Announcer:  To mark the day of the

14     special operations unit of the Republic of Serbia state security, the

15     chief of the Republic of Serbia State Security Service,

16     Mr. Jovica Stanisic, will present awards."

17             MR. FARR:

18        Q.   Sir, that is you that has just been speaking on this video;

19     correct?

20        A.   Correct.

21             MR. FARR:  Can we continue and pause again at 43 minutes and 18

22     seconds.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Radomir Ratkovic, Sima Ratkovic,

25     Nikola Pupovac, Dragan Olujic."

Page 14874

 1             MR. FARR:

 2        Q.   Sir, we've just seen you announcing names of individuals who then

 3     come forward to receive awards from Mr. Stanisic.  Is it really your

 4     evidence that you never discussed this unit with Mr. Stanisic?

 5        A.   Of course I didn't discuss it with him.  As I already said, I had

 6     my purview and in this particular instance I was merely acting as a

 7     master of ceremony or abiding by the protocol and that was my duty.

 8             MR. FARR:  Can we continue playing the clip now through to the

 9     end.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Dragan Vasiljkovic.

12             JS:  I'm proud to present you with /inaudible/."

13             MR. FARR:

14        Q.   Sir, in that clip we just heard you call out the name of

15     Dragan Vasiljkovic, saw him walk forward to accept an award from

16     Jovica Stanisic, hug Jovica Stanisic, and Stanisic then spoke a few words

17     to him.  When I asked you earlier today when you met Captain Dragan for

18     the first time, you said that you met him by coincidence in Belgrade

19     several days after the events of 5th October.  "He was in the company of

20     a man I knew.  That was when we made our acquaintance."  That's

21     transcript page 9.  Still on transcript page 9 when I asked you, did you

22     ever learn of any link or relationship between Captain Dragan and the

23     Serbian DB, you said no.  When I asked you did you ever learn about any

24     links or relationship between Captain Dragan and Jovica Stanisic, you

25     said no.  When I asked you as far as you know, did Jovica Stanisic and

Page 14875

 1     Captain Dragan ever meet, you said I'm not aware of that.

 2             Sir, those answers were not honest, do you agree with me?

 3        A.   When I said that I met Captain Dragan, I told you the truth.  I

 4     met him.  I used to see him on TV.  Now I see after watching this

 5     video-clip, because that was a long time ago, I realise that he was there

 6     and that he received the award as well.  You must admit that after such a

 7     long time I had problems remembering everything.

 8        Q.   Sir, it's not just that he happened to be present at the same

 9     ceremony where you were present, you called out his name, you were

10     standing about a metre and a half away from him when he received this

11     award, and you are really saying that you forgot that?

12        A.   You are right, all I did was to read the list of the names of

13     those who were the recipients of the award.

14        Q.   When I asked you whether it was correct that meeting

15     Captain Dragan for the first time was a memorable experience given his

16     fame and notoriety, you said, "Well, I saw images on TV and of course I

17     recognised him right away."  Now you are telling us that your first

18     meeting, as you now say, of Captain Dragan is something that you have

19     forgotten, is that your evidence?

20        A.   Well, you know what, it probably slipped my mind.  There were

21     many people there.  I can't tell you right away.  I was merely reading

22     the names of those who received the award and you really can't expect me

23     to remember every single name.

24        Q.   Sir, I just want to be clear.  It's our position that your

25     evidence on this point is not true.  You know very well who

Page 14876

 1     Captain Dragan is and you know that he was a close associate of

 2     Mr. Stanisic, Mr. Simatovic, and the Serbian DB.  It's precisely because

 3     you know this that you have been dishonest with the court in claiming

 4     that you didn't meet him until 2000; is that correct?

 5        A.   I cannot discuss the level of co-operation between Captain Dragan

 6     and Mr. Stanisic and the service in general.  I knew nothing about that.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was a different one.  As a matter of

 8     fact, what Mr. Farr did put to you is that you didn't tell us the truth

 9     for the reasons he mentioned that you knew Captain Dragan well, that you

10     knew that he was a close associate with Mr. Stanisic and Simatovic and

11     the Serbian DB, and that that's what the reason why you didn't tell us

12     the truth.  Now, he asked you whether you agree with that or not.  I got

13     the impression from your answer that you do not agree, is that correctly

14     understood?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Entirely.  You understood me

16     perfectly.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Farr.

18             MR. FARR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   Sir, in paragraph 84 of your statement, you said:

20             "I know Stanisic very well because I was working with him.  I

21     know how he behaves and reacts."

22             Earlier today you told us that in your experience Mr. Stanisic

23     was a man who did not show much emotion whether positive or negative.

24     Can we agree that the hug and handshake that Mr. Stanisic gave to

25     Captain Dragan was, for Mr. Stanisic, an extremely warm demonstration of

Page 14877

 1     trust, respect, and affection.

 2        A.   You are asking me about things that concern two other

 3     individuals.  I can only tell you how I would behave under these

 4     circumstances.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, I think that the facts are that what you

 6     see on the video is that Mr. Stanisic greets and congratulates Dragan in

 7     a way different from the others, that is, I think there will be no

 8     dispute about that as a fact.  Let's try to avoid to again read the minds

 9     and let's focus on the facts.

10             MR. FARR:  Yes, Your Honour.  To be clear, the only reason I

11     asked the question is because of the witness's representation that he

12     knows how Mr. Stanisic behaves and reacts, but I will move on.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if he has any specific knowledge about this

14     specific event, if he has heard anything from Mr. Stanisic why he did it,

15     then of course we could ask him, but let's not try to interpret in any

16     way other than every normal person would be able to interpret certain

17     behaviour and that has to be done with extreme caution and so unless the

18     witness has any specific knowledge on this behaviour at this moment, if

19     not, let's proceed.

20             MR. FARR:  Can we now please have the last clip which runs from

21     45 minutes 57 seconds to 47 minutes and 13 seconds.  The transcripts have

22     been marked as "Kula clip 11".

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "There, Frenki is correcting our

25     protocol.  We have now actually given out the greatest, highest award

Page 14878

 1     that can be earned in work of this kind and they are the awards for

 2     valour.  Each of you that receive this award, be it Opacic in the Knin

 3     area or Djurica in the Banija area and even the story about us as men who

 4     tried to help their people ... Each one of them is the same, particularly

 5     the way it came about, but in essence it speaks of the heroism of our

 6     people and what we have put into our unit and who will carry on the

 7     tradition of this unit."

 8             MR. FARR:

 9        Q.   Sir -- first of all, we can agree, I think that is still you

10     standing beside Mr. Stanisic in this clip; correct?

11        A.   That's correct.

12        Q.   We just heard Mr. Stanisic say:  "Each of you that received this

13     award, be it Opacic in the Knin area or Djurica in the Banija area".  Do

14     you know why Mr. Stanisic would have particularly singled out Opacic from

15     the Knin area when he is discussing the people who received the awards

16     for valour?

17        A.   No, I don't know.  I've said already that I don't know these men.

18        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to turn back briefly to the take-over of the

19     federal MUP.

20             MR. FARR:  Can we please have P3017 on the screen.  This is the

21     report of the police brigade of the federal Ministry of the Interior

22     dated 8 August 1992, compiled by Milorad Davidovic.  And if we could

23     focus on the first page on the word "report" and the following few lines.

24        Q.   Sir, as you can see, this is a report on the engagement of a

25     group of federal MUP police brigade members to provide expert assistance

Page 14879

 1     to the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina MUP.

 2             MR. FARR:  Can we please have the middle of page 6 in English and

 3     the bottom of page 4 in B/C/S.  I'm interested in the portion of the

 4     document that says:

 5             [As read] "The SSUP unit was particularly engaged in the

 6     disarming and suppression of the criminal, and in some cases, inhumane

 7     activities of certain paramilitary formations in the area."

 8             If we could have the next page in B/C/S, please.

 9        Q.   [As read] "The Serbian Volunteer Guard, Captain Dragan's

10     Red Berets, the Yellow Wasps, the police force of the SAO Krajina who

11     were directed to these parts by the Serbian MUP."

12             Sir, earlier in your evidence you told us that you believed that

13     the federal MUP was taken over by the Serbian DB pursuant to an agreement

14     between the ministers.  Our position is that this document shows the real

15     reason, which is that Captain Dragan, who we just saw receive an award

16     from Jovica Stanisic, was accused of criminal and in some cases inhumane

17     activity by this report prepared by the federal MUP.  That's the real

18     reason for the federal MUP take-over, isn't it?

19        A.   I am not able to answer the question.  I did not participate in

20     the take-over of the federal SUP building.  Whatever I had to say about

21     it, I said that I had heard and I started to work in the federal SUP

22     building a week or two later perhaps.  I am not familiar with what is

23     stated here at all.

24             MR. FARR:  Can we now please have the bottom half of page 9 in

25     English and the middle of page 7 in B/C/S.

Page 14880

 1        Q.   I'm interested in the portion -- I'm interested in the portion

 2     that reads:

 3             [As read] "In a well-prepared and organised action that was

 4     synchronised with the SRBH MUP and without any human or material losses,

 5     all the paramilitary formations in the area of the Bijeljina CSB were

 6     disarmed and broken up.  The members of these paramilitary formations who

 7     had been most deeply involved in criminal activities were arrested and

 8     will face criminal prosecution, while the others have been completely

 9     disarmed and, after the necessary interviews, returned to the FRY if they

10     were citizens of that country, or assigned to regular units of the army

11     of SRBiH in the case of locals."

12             MR. FARR:  And if we could have the next page, please, in English

13     and then continuing below the portion with the three stars in B/C/S.

14        Q.   [As read] "Information was obtained that in the concluding

15     interviews with members of the paramilitary formations a number of people

16     from these groups categorically stated that they had certain links and

17     contacts with the Republic of Serbia MUP.  Zivojin Ivanovic, aka

18     Crnogorac (who was also called Carli and was in Sarajevo for a time)

19     showed an ID card from the Serbian MUP and claimed to be one of its

20     employees, stressing that he and his group had been sent by Tepa and

21     Frenki from the Serbian MUP SDB."

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

23             MR. FARR:  Thank you.

24        Q.   Sir, I'm interested in what this report says about the

25     information contained in the concluding interviews.  Isn't it correct

Page 14881

 1     that these interviews would have been recorded either in written or some

 2     other format, and that the records of those interviews would have been

 3     stored in the federal MUP building?

 4        A.   I don't know anything about it.  I can't answer the question.

 5        Q.   Sir, we just saw a man named Zika Ivanovic present the veterans

 6     of the special members -- veteran members of the special operation unit

 7     of the Republic of Serbia to Jovica Stanisic and Slobodan Milosevic for

 8     inspection.  This document says that a paramilitary group led by one

 9     Zivojin Ivanovic was disarmed and broken up in Bosnia by the federal MUP.

10     And it also indicates that information was gathered linking that group to

11     the Serbian DB.  Sir, this is the real reason that the federal MUP

12     building was taken over by the Serbian DB; isn't that correct?

13        A.   I'm not able to answer the question because I simply don't know

14     about it.

15        Q.   Okay.  I'll turn now to the issue of arrest of Drazen Erdemovic

16     which you discuss in paragraph 61 to 64 of your --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  One moment.

18             MR. FARR:

19        Q.   Turning to the issue of the arrest of Drazen Erdemovic which you

20     discuss in paragraph 61 to 64 of your statement.  In paragraph 62 you

21     indicate that you took Erdemovic out of detention and brought him to the

22     DB premises to be heard by the representative of The Hague Tribunal.

23     Were you involved in Erdemovic's initial arrest or did you only become

24     involved at this point?

25        A.   From that specific point.

Page 14882

 1             MR. FARR:  Can we please have 65 ter number 6304 on the screen.

 2     These are notes of a telephone conversation between Drazen Erdemovic and

 3     ICTY investigator Breton Randall.  The date is 13 September 2005.  If we

 4     could have the top of the page and second page in both languages.  Is

 5     this 65 ter 6304?  Sorry, it looks like we don't have the correct

 6     document uploaded.  I'll just read something to you from the document and

 7     ask you whether you are aware of it.

 8        Q.   In the course of a telephone interview between Drazen Erdemovic

 9     and an ICTY investigator on the 13th of September, 2005, the following is

10     recorded:

11             [As read] "He," meaning Erdemovic, "was arrested late at night

12     believed to be the night of 3rd March, 1996, at about 10 or 11.00 hours

13     on Monday, 4 March he was informed by the DB interviewers that he was

14     lucky that his version of events was in the public domain thereby,

15     through inference, affording him some sort of protection from harm as the

16     matter would now have to go before the court.  He was interviewed for

17     three days and two nights by the DB.  During the course of the interview,

18     the Serbian Ministry of the Interior DB interviewers tried to persuade

19     him to recant his earlier statements to the journalist by now stating

20     that this version of events was wrong because Serbs would never do such a

21     thing, i.e., essentially deny that the events he was involved in at

22     Branjevo and his observations regarding Pilica Dom ever took place."

23             Sir, were you aware of those allegations made by

24     Drazen Erdemovic?

25        A.   No.

Page 14883

 1        Q.   Other than Drazen Erdemovic are you aware of any other arrests

 2     related to crimes committed by Serbs at Srebrenica during the time that

 3     Jovica Stanisic was head of the DB?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   I would just like to ask you briefly about some of your comments

 6     on the relationship between Milosevic and Stanisic.  You say you had the

 7     personal impression that Milosevic's attitude towards Stanisic and the DB

 8     could best be described as an attitude of mistrust.  Now, first of all,

 9     we heard you say earlier that Captain Dragan and Jovica Stanisic had no

10     relationship at all and then we just saw evidence that you are aware that

11     they in fact did know each other.  On that basis, the Prosecution

12     position is that your evidence regarding the relationship between

13     Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Milosevic is worthless and should not be accorded

14     any weight by this court.  Do you agree with that?

15        A.   I didn't understand you fully.  What was it that I said about

16     Captain Dragan?

17        Q.   Sir, you earlier purported to tell us that there was no

18     relationship whatsoever between Jovica Stanisic and Captain Dragan.  It's

19     the Prosecution position that that evidence was not honest.  On that

20     basis, my suggestion to you is that your evidence regarding the

21     relationship between Jovica Stanisic and Slobodan Milosevic should not be

22     given any weight by this court, do you agree with that?

23        A.   I can't remember when it was that I said that there was no sort

24     of relationship between Jovica Stanisic and Captain Dragan.

25        Q.   Sir, it was this morning.

Page 14884

 1        A.   You mean during the awards ceremony, or, I don't know.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's try to cut matters short.

 3             Mr. Dragicevic, I think that Mr. Farr is putting the following to

 4     you:  He says you denied that Captain Dragan had any relation to

 5     Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Farr takes the position that he has demonstrated

 6     that you are not telling the truth at this moment and he referred in that

 7     context to the awards ceremony.  Now, he says where it's our position

 8     that you didn't tell us the truth in respect of the relationship between

 9     Mr. Stanisic and Captain Dragan, whether you would agree with him that

10     the evidence about the relationship between Mr. Stanisic and

11     Mr. Milosevic is useless and not true either?  That's, Mr. Farr, what you

12     want to put to the witness.  That's what he is putting to you and he

13     would like to hear whether you agree with him or not.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Farr.

16             MR. FARR:

17        Q.   You mention a number of things that you say gave you the

18     impression that there was mistrust between Milosevic and Stanisic.  One

19     of those things was the relationship between Mr. Stanisic and the

20     American service.  You refer to that in terms of the Langley visit in

21     paragraph 72 of your statement, and in terms of a conversation you had

22     with Milosevic at the time Karadzic withdrew from politics.

23             Sir, both of those events, that is the Langley visit and

24     Karadzic's withdrawal from politics happened after the war, so whatever

25     their effect on the relationship between Stanisic and Milosevic was, that

Page 14885

 1     effect didn't happen until after the war as well; correct?

 2        A.   I was speaking of the general mistrust that President Milosevic

 3     had of the State Security Service which was there right from the start.

 4     These were merely two illustrations that I gave, i.e., the official visit

 5     to the US and the night when Mr. Stanisic flew over to Mr. Karadzic in

 6     order to get from him a signed document certifying that he would no

 7     longer be involved in politics.

 8        Q.   We agree that Stanisic served in the Milosevic government for a

 9     long time, seven or eight years; correct?

10        A.   Yes, that's correct.

11        Q.   And he served in a very high-level position, we agree about that

12     as well?

13        A.   That's correct.

14        Q.   Milosevic could have gotten rid of him any time he wanted to?

15        A.   You are right in that as well.

16        Q.   In paragraph 85 of your statement you say:

17             [As read] "I think that Stanisic managed to keep his position as

18     the SDB chief during the period from 1992 until 1998 because Milosevic

19     was smart enough to keep someone on that position who was good in his

20     job.  Stanisic was from the DB and had a good team."

21             We can agree on that basis that whatever their subjective

22     feelings for each other, Milosevic and Stanisic worked together

23     professionally and effectively; correct?

24        A.   It is true that Mr. Milosevic was intelligent enough to keep by

25     his side a man who was a proven professional and who liked his job very

Page 14886

 1     much.  Why would he have gotten rid of him?

 2        Q.   In other words, Milosevic appreciated and valued Stanisic's work?

 3        A.   Well, if you view it that way, yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, I'm looking at the clock.  Before we

 5     adjourn, could you inform the Chamber how much more time you would need.

 6             MR. FARR:  Probably 15 minutes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  15 minutes.  Then you'll have 15 minutes tomorrow.

 8             Mr. Dragicevic, we'll adjourn for the day.  We'd like to see you

 9     back tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this same courtroom, and I give you the

10     same instruction as I did yesterday, that you should not speak or

11     communicate in any other way with whomever about your testimony, whether

12     already given or still to be given tomorrow, and we'll expect to conclude

13     your testimony tomorrow.  We stand adjourned and we resume tomorrow,

14     Thursday, the 10th of November, 9.00.  Courtroom II.

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.

16                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 10th day of

17                           November, 2011 at 9.00 a.m.