Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14948

 1                           Tuesday, 15 November 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

 8             This is case number IT-03-69-T.  The Prosecutor versus

 9     Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Before we start hearing the evidence of the next witness, I have

12     a few matters I would like to raise with you.  The first one, there has

13     been some discussion about how to deal with the 54 bis hearing.  The

14     Chamber suggests the following:  If we have heard the representatives of

15     the Republic of Serbia that if that raises any matter of concern or

16     whether -- if you'd like to make any observation, that it be done

17     immediately during that hearing for both parties, which gives an

18     opportunity also that if that, again, raises issues on which we'd like to

19     hear further from Serbia that we could do that right away, rather than

20     asking for written submissions and then giving the opportunity to the

21     Republic of Serbia to respond to that.  It may take quite a while.  I

22     think the issues are fairly clear and that so, therefore, the Chamber a

23     suggested that we proceed in that way.  Any comments?  Not from you, not

24     from you.  Then, perhaps, meanwhile, the witness could already be brought

25     into the courtroom.

Page 14949

 1             The Chamber has decided on the 92 bis submissions for some other

 2     witnesses.  You'll get these decisions but I already hereby informed the

 3     Stanisic Defence that the Chamber requires the presence of witness

 4     DST-071 for cross-examination.  So this part of the motion for 92 bis is

 5     denied and if you call him then he will be a 92 ter witness.

 6             And we'd very much like to know when you intend to call this

 7     witness, preferably by this Friday, Mr. Jordash.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  We'll do our best.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then the hearing of Thursday, the 1st of

10     December, is cancelled.  But this hearing is moved to the afternoon of

11     the Monday before, that's the 28th of November, so we'll sit in that week

12     on Monday instead of Thursday.  I know, Mr. Petrovic, that this is the

13     first week in which you call witnesses, so be prepared that we start on

14     Monday afternoon already and not on Tuesday.

15             MR. PETROVIC:  [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.  I

16     understand.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the hearing of Tuesday, the 29th of November is

18     moved from the afternoon to the morning, so we'll sit Monday afternoon;

19     Tuesday morning; Wednesday morning, most likely 15 bis; and not on

20     Thursday.

21                           [The witness entered court]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon.

23             THE WITNESS:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You can hear me in a language you understand.

25             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

Page 14950

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I have been informed that you would prefer to give

 2     your testimony in English language rather than to speak Dutch and through

 3     an interpreter.  We, perhaps, would not need an interpreter but that's

 4     your preference, is that --

 5             THE WITNESS:  For your colleagues it's probably better to do it

 6     in English.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes.  Well, we could have done it through an

 8     interpreter.  If you at any point in time have any problem with mastering

 9     of the English language, then please let me know, I'll not serve as an

10     interpreter but we'll find a solution for it.  Then before you give

11     evidence, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that you make a

12     solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth and

13     nothing but truth.  The text is handed out to you now, would you please

14     stand and make that solemn declaration.

15             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

16     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Helgers, because

18     we were informed that you are Mr. Helgers.  But that may be the first

19     question that Mr. Jordash will put to you.

20             Mr. Jordash is counsel for the Defence and he will first --

21     counsel for the Defence of Mr. Stanisic, and he will be the first one to

22     examine you.

23             Mr. Jordash.

24             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.


Page 14951

 1                           WITNESS:  MARCUS MARTINUS EMANUEL HELGERS

 2                           Examination by Mr. Jordash:

 3        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Helgers?

 4        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. Jordash.

 5        Q.   As perhaps is plain, we haven't met.  I want to go through some

 6     formalities before we proceed with the examination.  First of all, were

 7     you provided with a copy of --

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Let me have on the screen, please, 1D03910.

 9        Q.   Were you provided with a statement dated the 3rd of August, 1995,

10     which purported to be a statement by you, were you provided that this

11     morning upon your arrival in The Hague?

12        A.   I don't see any picture, but I did receive this morning

13     statements dated at or about the 3rd of August of 1995, as well of a

14     transcript of my statement in the trial against Mr. Karadzic in January

15     this year.

16        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, let me just deal first of all with the

17     statement that's on the screen.

18        A.   That would be my statement.

19        Q.   That's your signature at the bottom?

20        A.   Definitely.

21        Q.   And did you look through the statement and confirm it's a

22     statement that you gave?

23        A.   Yes, and with regards to the statement, during the trial against

24     Mr. Karadzic I made two very small notes about that.

25        Q.   Which we'll see reflected in a transcript which we'll look at in

Page 14952

 1     a moment?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Apart from those amendments having reviewed it again today, was

 4     there anything else you would like to amend?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   And were the contents of that statement in accordance with the

 7     truth?

 8        A.   They are in accordance with the truth and I remember them or I

 9     should say as I remember them at that time.

10        Q.   And if asked the same questions concerning the events, you'd

11     answer in substance the same way?

12        A.   Sorry, can you repeat that question.

13        Q.   Would you answer, in substance, the same way if asked the same

14     questions?

15        A.   Probably not literally, but in substance, yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. JORDASH:  May I tender that as an exhibit, please,

18     Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be D510, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I saw on the chart that there are no objections

22     against admission of the statement of Mr. Helgers.

23             MS. MARCUS:  That's correct.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Nothing there, then D510 is admitted into evidence.

25             Please proceed.

Page 14953

 1             MR. JORDASH:  And could we have on the screen, please, 1D03909.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the transcript I take it, Mr. Jordash.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Which is, if I'm well informed, not on the 65 ter

 5     list, but may I take it that you want when you tender it that you also

 6     ask it to be admitted to the 65 ter -- added to the 65 ter --

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, please.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it there are no objections against that

 9     either.

10             MS. MARCUS:  No objections, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's proceed.

12             MR. JORDASH:  I'm told it is on the 65 ter list.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'm wrongly informed.  Apologies for that.

14             MR. JORDASH:

15        Q.   Did you have a chance to review this transcript, the evidence you

16     gave in the Karadzic case?

17        A.   Yes, I did.

18        Q.   And, again, do you have any clarifications or amendments to make

19     to that transcript?

20        A.   Apart from some name errors and the continued reference to radio

21     station instead of radar station, I think in essence it's the correct

22     statement.

23        Q.   Would you be able it to indicate the corrections you wanted to

24     make?

25        A.   Well, several times there have been mentioned radio station as

Page 14954

 1     the location to which I was transferred, and I kept hostage.  And that's

 2     radar station.  And as I remember I said or at least I intended to say

 3     radar station and not a radio station.

 4        Q.   Perhaps I can deal with this globally, is that the radar station

 5     at Jahorina?

 6        A.   Yes, correct.

 7        Q.   So where there's reference in the statement to radio station at

 8     Jahorina, and you being held at that location, it in fact should read

 9     radar station?

10        A.   That's correct.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And sorry, your second amendment was?

12        A.   Some names that were spelled phonetically and not always

13     correctly, but, okay, that's ...

14        Q.   Can you think of any now?

15        A.   Mr. Raamakers is spelled several times differently, but okay,

16     that's minor issues.

17        Q.   But the names themselves that you wish to correct, phonetically

18     they read as ...?

19        A.   Raamakers, well the same name is spelled two times differently

20     phonetically.

21        Q.   Do you know how to should be spelled?

22        A.   Phonetically.

23        Q.   No, actually?

24        A.   R-a-a-m-a-k-e-r-s.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can you think of any others?

Page 14955

 1        A.   It's being spelled -- yes, that's correct.  Not at the moment,

 2     no.

 3        Q.   If at any stage you think of any, please indicate.

 4        A.   There might be some very minor details, but, I mean, they will be

 5     minor.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Thank you?

 7             MR. JORDASH:  May I tender this as an exhibit, please,

 8     Your Honour.  Perhaps I should ask one more question.

 9        Q.   Was what you said there in accordance with the truth?

10        A.   Of course.  As I remember it.

11             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And you would give the same answers if asked the

13     same questions.

14             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?

16             THE REGISTRAR:  The number for document 1D3909 would be D511,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Looking at the parties, no objections.  D511 is

19     admitted into evidence and prior to admitting it leave has been granted

20     to add it to the 65 ter list.  No, it was on the 65 ter list.  My

21     apologies.  Yes, for the second time.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

23             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

24        Q.   What I'd like to do now if I may -- or perhaps one last thing.

25             MR. JORDASH:  Could we perhaps on the screen -- could I just have

Page 14956

 1     a moment, please.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Where I earlier made a mistake I think it was about

 3     the associated exhibits; they were not all on the 65 ter list, I think.

 4     I don't know whether you want to address that.  Either now or at a later

 5     stage.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  If I may do that later.  We've been in discussions

 7     with the Prosecution, so there's agreement on many of them, I think.

 8        Q.   I want to move fairly swiftly and have you look at some

 9     documents, if I may, Mr. Helgers, and ask you to testify to some of the

10     contents.

11             MR. JORDASH:  1D05156, please.

12        Q.   As you'll appreciate, we don't need to go through your testimony

13     and repeat what is in your statement or transcripts.

14        A.   Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, if you could tell us where we find the

16     document on the chart, it makes it easier for us.

17             MR. JORDASH:  It's the top of --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I see it, yes, number 30.  Or am I wrong?  1D0 --

19             MR. JORDASH:  Are you working from the Prosecution chart?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm working from the chart in which we read

21     whether there are any objections.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Okay.  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Could you take a moment just to read through that document,

24     please, Mr. Helgers?

25        A.   Could it be enlarged just a little bit.  Thank you.  Can you

Page 14957

 1     please continue scrolling, thank you.  Mm-hmm.

 2        Q.   And the next page so you get a full picture of the contents of

 3     this, please.

 4        A.   Mm-hmm.

 5        Q.   If we can go back to the first page, are you able to shed any

 6     light on this what document is, where it emanates from?  Do you recognise

 7     the format?

 8        A.   It seems to be quite in accordance with the type of format we

 9     used to report events.

10        Q.   We being?

11        A.   UNMOs.  Although, it did not originate from my team.

12        Q.   Right.  And do you confirm or are you able to shed any light on

13     the comment there on the first page about when the first attack took

14     place, which is, I think the third paragraph?

15        A.   Mm-hmm.  Yes, I remember that it was stated and we were informed

16     that there had been an air-strike the day before we were taken hostage.

17     Was on 25 of May.  And allegedly, as far as I remember, the -- it was in

18     response to the non-compliance of the Bosnian Serb armed forces with an

19     order, if you could say so, to withdraw a number of artillery, heavy

20     weapons, I should say.

21        Q.   In relation to this report, this is the 25th of May, 1995 --

22        A.   Mm-hmm.

23        Q.   -- do you know if those artillery, heavy weapons were withdrawn

24     at any stage?

25        A.   As I recall, although of course I was not present at the

Page 14958

 1     withdrawal or not, they were not withdrawn or not withdrawn entirely.

 2     That was the impression I had at the time.

 3        Q.   On the third paragraph starting with:

 4             [As read] "This attack was in response to the UN's claim that the

 5     Serb side did not return for artillery pieces into WCPs but although

 6     Muslim artillery remains positioned inside the Sarajevo exclusion zones,

 7     only Serb targets were bombed.  Muslims were even firing today on the

 8     Serb parts of Sarajevo with mortars and Brownings."

 9             Just immediately before the 25th of May, were there bombings from

10     both sides of the, as I say, ethnic divide?

11        A.   Which exact time do you refer?

12        Q.   Well, the days running up to the bombings by NATO and also your

13     detention?

14        A.   Okay.  From the area where we were stationed we could formally

15     see almost every day a few grenades being lobbed into Sarajevo proper,

16     which is the Bosniak-held Sarajevo.  I do remember that several times

17     there were also incoming shells, yes, that means that there were shelling

18     from probably presumably the Bosniak-held areas into Serb-held areas.

19        Q.   At number 2, just further down on this first page, there's a

20     number of complaints being registered concerning the perceived lack of

21     neutrality of NATO.  Did you ever hear those complaints before or during

22     or after your detention?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   From which kind of people?

25        A.   I was aware that the Bosnian Serbs had, in general, the opinion

Page 14959

 1     that they were more often targeted and as reason for our detention was

 2     given several times by several different persons that it was to -- in

 3     response to the attacks of the NATO against Bosnian Serbs targets.

 4        Q.   When you say Bosnian Serbs, are we talking about the military or

 5     civilians or both?

 6        A.   As far as I am -- I know, the military, but there were reports by

 7     Bosnian Serbs TV and radio, presumably, I was told that were also

 8     civilian casualties.

 9        Q.   In terms of -- if we look at page 2 of this document, for

10     example, there's a report at the last paragraph about:

11             [As read] "As far as the locals see it, UN is once again singling

12     out the Serbs for blame.  They cannot understand why the Muslims go

13     unpunished for the shelling and shooting that they inflict on Serb

14     civilians in and around Sarajevo ...," and so on.

15             Are you able to comment on the locals view on what was happening?

16        A.   Due to the restriction of movement my contact with locals was

17     fairly limited.  However, I do notice that, in general, Bosnian Serb

18     press, especially TV, was very much giving attention to the supposed

19     unfair treatment of the UN and of NATO against the Bosnian Serbs.  But of

20     course, as I told you, that's what I got via our translators from the

21     press.

22        Q.   Was there any perception prior to your detention or during your

23     detention that there may be any reaction by the locals to your presence

24     on the ground?

25        A.   I can only say that up until shortly before our detention the

Page 14960

 1     contacts I had, which were limited as I told you before, were quite

 2     correct.  I never experienced any -- well, we were not very welcome, but

 3     I did not perceive any real hostility against us.

 4        Q.   And after the air-strikes began?

 5        A.   Well, the situation deteriorated a little bit.

 6        Q.   In what sense?  Can you be a bit more concrete, please?

 7        A.   As probably, as I'm sure has been said in my statement of

 8     August 1995, and also in my transcripts, after the air-strikes on the

 9     26th, we got a visit from, I think it was the deputy battalion commander,

10     first, of the local battalion, Bosnian Serb battalion about the

11     air-strike and he was quite -- he was not happy, let me put it like that.

12     Later on, I think it was the security chief, he came back and he was

13     quite negative and he gave us basically house arrest and told us that if

14     we were going outside, we would be shot.  That was mainly the -- so that

15     was Bosnian Serb military response which was obviously quite negative.

16        Q.   Was he suggesting you were going to be shot by the Bosnian Serb

17     military or by civilians with arms, what was the understanding you had at

18     the time?

19        A.   As I recall, he said if you go outside, you will be shot.  He did

20     not state by whom.  At least not to my recollection, of course.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have on the screen, please, 1D05161.

22             And it's -- it's at 34, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I see it.

24             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, sorry to interrupt.  For my objection

25     can I have private session, please, for one moment.


Page 14961

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We move into private session.  For the public

 2     gallery, that also means that the curtain has to be down for a second.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14962

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

14             And could the curtains be open as soon as reasonably possible.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. JORDASH:

17        Q.   If you just have a quick look at the document on the screen,

18     again dated the 25th of May, which is the day before your arrest or

19     detention, I should say.  And there's a report there on the radio, it

20     says from Banja Luka Northern Bosnia with Karadzic saying:

21             "If (UN Bosnian commander Lieutenant-General Rupert) Smith orders

22     air-strikes against us, we will treat them (the United Nations) as

23     enemies."

24             Is that something that you heard at the time or became aware of

25     later?


Page 14963

 1        A.   I do remember that shortly before we were taken hostage, and I

 2     think it was the evening of the 25th, the situation was considered to be

 3     worsening, security situation and in fact, I do record that our deputy

 4     team leader at the moment, Major Westlund, he tried to get the mission to

 5     withdraw to the local UN Battalion, which was not approved.  So our

 6     understanding as the team was that the situation was deteriorating, the

 7     security situation.  I don't recall this exact statement, though.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.  Could we have please, video 1D05270 at

10     20.48 please we'll play it to 21.47.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             MR. JORDASH:  Could I stop it a moment, please.  There is a

13     translation and I thought it had be --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the transcript provided to the booth?  I see

15     nodding no from the booth.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Perhaps it could be provided now, please.  I do

17     apologise.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, your estimate was 30 minutes, wasn't

19     it?

20             MR. JORDASH:  I had in my mind it was 45 minutes, but since

21     Your Honours just said that, I think you are right.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  It was 45.

23             MR. JORDASH:  I shall cut matters short very quickly.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's try to focus very much on what is in dispute

25     and what is not in dispute.  I mean, that there may have been different

Page 14964

 1     views at the time as to the justification of the air-strikes, but that

 2     seems at least not to be the core of this case.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.  Could we please play this video.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Our lives are in danger too.

 6             The NATO bombed Serbian civilian targets, did you have any

 7     problems with Serbian soldiers?

 8             Answer:  No, not at the moment, we don't have, we did not have

 9     any problem at the moment.

10             And you are from?

11             I'm from Spain.

12             So this is how UNPROFOR members were situated in one of the

13     bridges.  They are placed at all key positions where NATO could bomb

14     again and we will visit some of them."

15             MR. JORDASH:

16        Q.   Do you recognise anybody in the video?

17        A.   Yes, the first person speaking seems to be, again, he is a

18     colleague.  I don't remember his name but I met him just before our

19     release.

20        Q.   And -- what this video depicts, was this representative of where

21     you and other hostages were held, the type of locations?

22        A.   They seem to -- this seemed to be held at the bridge, so I was

23     held at a radar station.

24        Q.   What about other hostages?

25        A.   I know from some who had been held, one Dutch colleague at least,

Page 14965

 1     near a aircraft shelter in Banja Luka and others were kept near bridges

 2     and other locations.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Was there any dispute about these kind of matters

 4     reading the statement, not, are you going to dispute the places where

 5     people were chained to --

 6             MS. MARCUS:  No, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, therefore it seems not to be very much

 8     in dispute.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I'll move on.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

11        Q.   Let me move forward to the time of your release.  You were - is

12     this right? - released on the 18th of June, and at that point, according

13     to your statement, Koljevic made a speech to you?

14        A.   Yes, that seems to be correct.

15        Q.   You were then spoken to by Colonel Indjic?

16        A.   Lieutenant-colonel in my recollection.

17        Q.   Sorry, yes.  And then at some point taken by bus to the

18     Presidency in Pale and at that point you had a meeting with the security

19     chief of Milosevic?

20        A.   That's correct.

21        Q.   Just so we are clear, who was that?

22        A.   To be quite honest, he was introduced to me as the security chief

23     of Mr. Milosevic.  At that time I, well, being very relieved at our

24     pending release, I must say I don't recall the name at that moment.  I do

25     remember him entering the bus where all the -- the last batch of hostages

Page 14966

 1     was in at the moment and him stating that he was security chief of

 2     Mr. Milosevic and that Mr. Milosevic had arranged for our release.

 3        Q.   Do you recall anything else that was said by the security chief?

 4        A.   Anything specifically?

 5        Q.   Yes, if you recall anything else specifically?

 6        A.   I remember he said -- I think he said the good offices, but of

 7     course it was translated because my Serbo-Croatian or Croatian or Serbian

 8     is not so good.  Through the good offices of Mr. Milosevic, that's what I

 9     recall.

10        Q.   Okay.  And he asked if you wanted to speak to the press?

11        A.   Ah yes, I do remember that.  And we spoke to each other, we

12     didn't really want to and after they insisted, I think it was

13     Captain Rechner, of the Canadian armed forces, also an UNMO previously

14     stationed in Pale, went outside and a short statement to the press.

15        Q.   Do you recall what he said?

16        A.   It was outside so obviously not.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Can I have on the screen and play 1D05254.  In

18     fact, we can probably deal with it by transcript only.  1D05254.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Do we have to play it?

20             MR. JORDASH:  No, the transcript is sufficient.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If you have any specific questions you can put them

22     to the witness.

23             Ms. Marcus, it is undisputed that these were the words spoken by

24     Mr. Stanisic at the time.

25             MS. MARCUS:  That's correct, Your Honour.

Page 14967

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 2             MR. JORDASH:

 3        Q.   Could I just ask you something.  Did you ever learn the name of

 4     the security chief?

 5        A.   Yes, later.

 6        Q.   And it was?

 7        A.   When I was contacted by, in fact, Mr. Knoops, when he asked me if

 8     I wanted to act as a witness for the Defence.  I probably -- very

 9     probably, I've heard the name before, but it didn't linger in my memory.

10        Q.   Okay.  Were these words then, was anything else said?

11        A.   It was -- at least not as it was translated to us, in my

12     recollection.  I think, I do seem to remember that Captain Rechner

13     translated but he translated quite shortly, not literally, and I do

14     remember that the last part that we were handed over to the security

15     force of the Serb Republic and that we were going to be brought to

16     Serbia, to Yugoslavia, I should say, at that time.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  This could create some confusion, let's clarify with

19     the witness.

20             When you said the Serb Republic, you were not referring to

21     Republika Srpska but you were referring to the republic of at that moment

22     still was the Republic of Serbia, being part of the Federal Republic of

23     Yugoslavia.

24             THE WITNESS:  You are completely correct, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

Page 14968

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Could I have, please, on the screen, 1D05158.

 2     Which is at number 32, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   It's a report by the medical doctors of the Keran [phoen] VB

 4     military hospital regarding a visit to UN officers prisoners at the Keran

 5     barracks?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Are there any disputes about the report.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  I don't know.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I see on the table that the Prosecution no objection

 9     if tendered from the bar table, if they would consider it unreliable,

10     then I take it there would have been some objection.

11             Ms. Marcus, any dispute.

12             MS. MARCUS:  No, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Then I won't show you that document, Mr. Helgers.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And you want to tender it from the bar table as

16     confirmation of the medical state in which -- of the hostages.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Or at least the persons that were released.

19             Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be D513.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed.

22             MR. JORDASH:

23        Q.   And in that document, Mr. Helgers, you may be the only detainee

24     there that wasn't suffering from any problems during detention but we

25     know from your transcript later on that you did suffer from

Page 14969

 1     post-traumatic stress disorder?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Do you know if others suffered from such problems later on?

 4        A.   I'd rather not answer that question.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Helgers, if you know, you should answer that

 6     question, however, if you want to protect the privacy of former

 7     colleagues then we could move into private session.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  I'm not interested in their names, just a general

 9     view of what the impact of this detention on the hostages in general.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  If you know, tell us, if not, please tell us as

11     well.

12             THE WITNESS:  I know of several colleagues who later got

13     problems, yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Problems similar to yours, is that how --

15             THE WITNESS:  Similars to yours, I'm not a doctor.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Not to mine, but to yours.

17             THE WITNESS:  I can't comment if it was post-traumatic stress or

18     something similar, but let's say problems related to their experiences.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You mean psychological problems related to that

20     experience?

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

24             MR. JORDASH:

25        Q.   Finally then, then I'll sit down, how did the security chief

Page 14970

 1     treat you and the remaining hostages?  Can you remember his approach to

 2     you?

 3        A.   Well, as I told you, he came into the bus and he made a statement

 4     which was not literally, but was more or less translated by

 5     Captain Rechner, and afterwards, I can't really comment on himself, but I

 6     can comment on the Yugoslav security forces, they were correct.

 7     Although, I should say we -- I at least, and I think most of my

 8     colleagues were not in the mood to be very friendly or talkative with

 9     them.

10        Q.   Understandable.  I can show you a document, but there's a

11     document here which is D00475 MFI, an exhibit in this trial, which has

12     the number of hostages at the total number at 441.  Is that something

13     that you are able to comment on?

14        A.   I remember that initially I was told that there were several

15     hundreds.  I think something like 400 were named hostages.  Especially

16     from the battalions, from the troop fighters.  And UNMOs, the number of

17     UNMOs was considerably smaller, of course.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.  Nothing further.  Thank you,

19     Mr. Helgers.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jordash.

21             Mr. Petrovic, are you ready to --

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no

23     questions.  Not for this witness, thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  No questions.  Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

25             Ms. Marcus, are you ready to cross-examine the witness.


Page 14971

 1             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You'll now be cross-examined by Ms. Marcus,

 3     Ms. Marcus is counsel for the Prosecution Mr. Helgers.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6                           Cross-examination by Ms. Marcus:

 7        Q.   Mr. Helgers, thank you for your willingness to come and answer

 8     our questions.

 9             I am going to ask you a few questions about the media coverage

10     during the release.  Do you recall the media coverage between the trip,

11     during the trip from Pale to Novi Sad when you went by bus, do you recall

12     any media coverage during that trip?

13        A.   There was quite a lot of media coverage.  I don't know exactly

14     which events you mean specifically.  There was a lot of media coverage

15     during our release at -- as we were -- before we were put in the bus.

16     Then there was, well, a tremendous media coverage, I think it was from

17     international press near the residency of the house of Mr. Karadzic, and

18     then there was a third media event, I'm forgetting the exact location, at

19     the bridge was the border between the Bosnian Serb area and Serbia or

20     former Yugoslavia, and then when we were -- when we stepped out of the

21     bus, I think it was in Novi Sad, at the hotel, there was another big

22     media event.

23        Q.   During the process of these media events, were you informed of

24     what was going on?  Were you kept informed of why the buses were

25     stopping, et cetera?

Page 14972

 1        A.   Not specifically.  I mean, it was obvious that it was for media

 2     coverage, all the photos were being taken from the bus and from several

 3     times we were asked to give interviews or somebody came to the bus to ask

 4     if we wanted to give interviews.  Not specifically why we were stopping

 5     at a specific place, no.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, I would have the same question, to what

 7     extent is there dispute about media coverage on the events?

 8             MS. MARCUS:  I'm finished with this subject, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you would say, I would have asked this

10     question before you started the subject, you -- I'm looking at the

11     material, I'd very much like the parties to focus on the issue at stake

12     and if I understand the Defence well, that there was some emphasis on the

13     event itself and there seems not to be much dispute about that, and then

14     mainly the role of Mr. Stanisic in releasing the hostages, Mr. Jordash,

15     if I'm correctly -- if I understand your position correctly.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Therefore, I think, we should focus on that.

18     It's not your witness, Ms. Marcus, you'll cross-examine the witness on

19     this matter.  And the hostage matter itself is not directly part of your

20     case, is it?

21             MS. MARCUS:  Understood, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

23             MS. MARCUS:  Could I then, rather than showing the witness,

24     tender one more clip of one press conference into evidence.  I think this

25     is then not going to be disputed in my view.  It's uploaded as

Page 14973

 1     65 ter 4755.2.  It is another clip from exhibit P49 already admitted.

 2     There were four clips admitted from that, this is one more clip, it's a

 3     press conference that I believe took place in Novi Sad.

 4             I'm seeking to tender it from the bar table.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  I haven't yet seen it.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then perhaps, how long is it?  Ms. Marcus, you said

 7     it was ...?  If it's a short clip.

 8             MS. MARCUS:  Approximately one minute.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's play it.  That takes less time.  Please

10     proceed.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "This time I particularly refer also

13     to the efforts of the new French government because those who wished to

14     return to their battalions, the 26.  Besides in this agreement, the

15     Muslim side did not facilitate the return to their battalions for the

16     last 15 observers who are still detained.

17             The detainees will be released by the end of the week.

18             Ladies and gentlemen, last time when we have our government ..."

19             MS. MARCUS:  The question I was going to ask the witness,

20     Your Honour, is just one question, whether you recall being present

21     during this particular press conference?

22        A.   Definitely not.

23             MS. MARCUS:  Can it be tendered from the bar table, Your Honour.

24             MR. JORDASH:  I don't understand the relevance or the probative

25     value of it.

Page 14974

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus.  The witness cannot tell us anything

 2     about it, but what is the relevance of ...

 3             MS. MARCUS:  I'll withdraw it, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

 5             MS. MARCUS:

 6        Q.   Major Helgers, I'm going to now ask you a few questions step by

 7     step through the release process.  I'm going to ask you about some of

 8     your observations and how you felt.  Firstly, can you tell us -- you've

 9     told us about some of the longer term repercussions of your experience.

10     Can you tell us in just a few words how you felt during the time that you

11     were detained, specifically, how you felt with respect to your Bosnian

12     Serb captors?

13        A.   When I was leaving the radar station, I remember commenting to

14     some of them that I would be seeing them here in The Hague in the future,

15     which implies that I was -- although they at the radar station generally

16     treated us correctly, I was not very well -- very positively inclined

17     towards them.

18        Q.   Can you describe to the best of your recollection when was the

19     first moment you realised that you might be released?

20        A.   That's a bit of a difficult question.  I remember after one week,

21     exactly one week on the Friday, we by radio, BBC World, we received

22     information that some of the UN hostages were being released however

23     there was an incident with the shooting down of an American airplane and

24     the situation deteriorated again for some time.  And then, step by step,

25     they were releasing slowly several of the UN personnel so we were in good

Page 14975

 1     hopes that we would be released eventually.

 2        Q.   Do you remember where you were when you first had that hope, that

 3     you would be released?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, Ms. Marcus, I have to really raise a matter.

 5     This witness has been called by the Stanisic Defence, I take it to

 6     confirm the role of Mr. Stanisic in the release.  If there's any dispute

 7     about this role, that is certainly a matter which should be raised also

 8     in cross-examination.  In his examination-in-chief, Mr. Jordash already

 9     hinted at that it's not pleasant to be a hostage and I think there's no

10     dispute about that, is there?  Because the questions you are asking, how

11     did you feel, of course everyone feels very badly, I would say it's

12     almost a notorious fact, if you are kept hostage it doesn't feel good.

13     If there's any hope that you will be released, does that feel better?

14     Well, I would say you may have some doubts as to whether it would happen

15     or not but apart from whether there's notorious fact, I don't think

16     there's much dispute about that, is there, Mr. Jordash?

17             MR. JORDASH:  No, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Let's try to focus on why this witness is here,

19     not to tell us that it was bad because that's not in dispute and I

20     have -- I may have some compassion with a witness who comes and has to

21     tell about these things because it must have been a very bad experience.

22     No doubt about that, but for this case, this being -- not being disputed,

23     and in view of the obvious reason why the Stanisic Defence has called

24     this witness, there seems to be not much reason to go into these areas.

25     Would you please keep that in your mind.  And also whether it was right

Page 14976

 1     or wrong, there I was about to stop Mr. Jordash whether there were good

 2     excuses for behaving in this way or whether there were good -- well, not

 3     only to behave in this way but why you could be emotional and do,

 4     perhaps, things wrongly which you shouldn't have done but that the

 5     circumstances make it very explainable that you would do that, that's all

 6     not, I think, what the witness is here for.  Mr. Helgers, don't gain the

 7     impression that you are here for nothing, not at all.  We've carefully

 8     read your statement and your testimony and, Ms. Marcus, could you please

 9     keep it in mind.

10             THE WITNESS:  Sir, thank you very much for your intervention.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, you may proceed.

12             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

13        Q.   Mr. Helgers, I'm trying to find out from you if you can tell me

14     when did you first come to understand that it was the Serb authorities

15     from Serbia who were going to be involved in your release?

16        A.   I was told it by the security chief of Mr. Milosevic obviously.

17     However, before -- I don't know exactly where, but I was under the

18     impression, I got the impression that there were negotiations going on

19     and including obviously Mr. Milosevic because it was well known that he

20     had very cosy relationship with Mr. Karadzic and his government.

21        Q.   In your ICTY statement you say, this is referring to -- sorry,

22     this is referring to Lieutenant-Colonel Indjic, and you say:

23             "He signed a document and some guy from Serb security forces with

24     a red beret signed a document and we were handed over."

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 14977

 1        Q.   Could I ask you about this person from the Serb security forces

 2     with the red beret.  Now, first, this was before you were addressed by

 3     the security chief of Milosevic; is that correct?

 4        A.   That is correct.  However, I should say that I got the

 5     information that it was a Serb security officer from comments made by

 6     other UNMOs.  We were not personally really very well informed by either

 7     the Bosnian Serb forces or the Serb forces about what was happening.

 8        Q.   Do you recall seeing that individual arrive?

 9        A.   I don't recall.  He must have arrived obviously, but not really.

10        Q.   Were you informed of what his identity was?  Do you know who he

11     was?

12        A.   I don't have any recollection of that.

13        Q.   And do you recall if he was accompanied by anyone?

14        A.   I think there was -- there was obviously apart from Bosnian Serb

15     press there were some other officials.  I think Mr. Koljevic was there.

16        Q.   Now, if I'm not mistaken, this signing of the document for your

17     release happened before the press conference at the Presidency?

18        A.   That's correct it was the handing over, I think, yes.

19        Q.   The handing over.  Can you tell me where that took place

20     physically?

21        A.   That was at a, I think it was a barracks.  No, it was -- Jesus, I

22     seem to be having a blackout.

23        Q.   Okay.  But it wasn't at the Presidency?

24        A.   No, definitely at the Presidency.  It was at the place where we

25     were loaded later on in the bus.

Page 14978

 1        Q.   And that is where you were -- from there you were taken to the

 2     Presidency; is that correct?

 3        A.   We were held at the barracks.  From the barracks we were brought

 4     to this location, I think it was a hospital, but I'm not quite sure.

 5     There the -- there was that ceremony, that was the Bosnian Serb press

 6     very present, making -- making tapes obviously.  And after signing or

 7     some ceremony in Serb, of which I didn't understand a lot obviously, we

 8     were taken to -- we were put in the bus and brought to the Presidency.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Just before you were taken to the Presidency, when you saw

10     that individual from the Serbian state security arrive, were you able to

11     observe any interaction between that individual and your Bosnian Serb

12     captors?

13        A.   Yes, they were.  They were talking of course, obviously.  And for

14     us, I mean, we knew we were being collected to be released quickly so

15     although I didn't understand exactly what was happening, I could deduce

16     it.

17        Q.   Who was it who took you from that location where the release

18     document was signed to the Presidency in Pale, if you recall?

19        A.   I have no recollection.

20        Q.   So would you say that the hand-over took place right there after

21     the document was signed, or would you say the hand-over to the Serbian

22     authorities took place sometime later, in your recollection?

23        A.   I can't exactly recollect that and that's because, for me, the

24     real release was when I arrived in Zagreb a day later.  To be quite

25     honest, I did not feel very much released in the former Yugoslavia.

Page 14979

 1        Q.   I understand.  I hope you'll bear with me for a few more details

 2     and anything you remember is fine, anything you don't, of course you

 3     don't remember.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one clarifying question.  You said you

 5     only felt relief "when I was in Zagreb, I did not feel released in the

 6     former Yugoslavia."  That Zagreb is as far as I know the former

 7     Yugoslavia, so but the -- you wanted to refer to the Federal Republic of

 8     Yugoslavia.

 9             THE WITNESS:  The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia I think

10     comprising of Serbia, including Kosovo obviously, and Montenegro, if I

11     recall.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you.

13             Please proceed.

14             MS. MARCUS:

15        Q.   Now, you mentioned that they exchanged greetings, in other words

16     the officials who had come from Serbia exchanged greeting with the

17     Bosnian Serbs, do you recall them exchanging salutes of any kind?

18        A.   Not specifically.  I think there were but I'm -- I couldn't swear

19     to that.

20        Q.   Now, when you arrived at the Presidency building, trying to draw

21     your attention to outside the building before you entered.  Do you recall

22     observing who was present outside, vehicles, forces, et cetera?

23        A.   Yes, lots of vehicles, lots of press obviously, and also several

24     persons wearing the, I think it was red or reddish berets of the Serb --

25     the former Yugoslavia, Yugoslavian Republic of Yugoslavia, of Milosevic

Page 14980

 1     Yugoslavia, his forces, the Red Berets and several police cars, et

 2     cetera, et cetera.  It was quite a cavalcade going to Novi Sad.

 3        Q.   When you say police cars, are you referring to police cars from

 4     Serbia or local Bosnian Serb police cars, if you recall?

 5        A.   I don't recall.  I think there were military, I think the Serbian

 6     security forces, they had their own cars but there were also some

 7     Bosnian Serb police cars in my recollection.

 8        Q.   Now, you may have partially answered this already but how were

 9     the forces from Serbia distinguishable to you from the local forces?

10        A.   By the red berets and the fact they were pointed out to me as

11     being the Yugoslav security forces.

12        Q.   Do you recall if they were armed?

13        A.   I think they were armed, but I am -- I couldn't swear to that.  I

14     probably would have noted if they hadn't been.

15        Q.   Now, entering the Presidency in Pale, do you recall who escorted

16     you in?  In other words, which forces escorted you in?

17        A.   To be -- to be specific, we didn't enter the Presidency, the bus

18     was taken to in front of the Presidency and I think it was a combination

19     of the Yugoslav forces because we were handed over there and some local

20     forces.

21        Q.   When you say you didn't enter the Presidency, you never entered

22     the Presidency during the process?

23        A.   What happened, the bus was brought from our -- from where the

24     hand-over ceremony was to in front of the Presidency where there was a

25     big media event which is what I remember most, and the speech of the

Page 14981

 1     security chief of Mr. Milosevic.  We did not enter the building.  We

 2     stayed in the bus.

 3        Q.   So where -- I'm just trying to understand because when we observe

 4     the video of the press conference where Mr. Stanisic introduces himself

 5     as the security chief of Mr. Milosevic, this appears to be indoors.  So

 6     I'm just trying to understand if there was a separate address to you or

 7     if it was the press conference that you viewed?

 8        A.   No, what I remember of the security chief of Mr. Milosevic, is

 9     that he entered the bus and that he -- he -- that he stated that

10     Mr. Milosevic had arranged for our release, as I stated earlier.  I did

11     not enter the building.  I did not leave the bus at that moment.  I think

12     the only one who left the bus at that moment was, in my recollection,

13     Captain Patrick Rechner.

14        Q.   Is that information that you received from the security chief of

15     Mr. Milosevic, was that the only information you had directly received

16     about your release and who was involved in your release?

17        A.   I'm not sure I understand the question.

18        Q.   My question was going to be whether you had received any

19     information from your Bosnian Serb captors regarding your release and who

20     was arranging the release?

21        A.   Yes, we were told that we were going to be handed over to the

22     Yugoslav security troops, to the Yugoslavian forces.

23        Q.   Now, during this time in the buses outside the Presidency, were

24     you able to observe any interaction between the forces that had come from

25     Serbia and the Bosnian Serb forces, those who had been involved in your

Page 14982

 1     capture?

 2        A.   In what way do you mean?

 3        Q.   Did you observe who it was who appeared it to be in charge?

 4        A.   I presume it was the security chief of Mr. Milosevic, but, I

 5     mean, I did not observe -- I mean, I didn't observe anybody specifically

 6     being in charge.  At the moment -- at that moment, I was more, well,

 7     let's say, happy by our coming release and, to be quite honest,

 8     completely fed up with the situation.

 9        Q.   Were you able to observe anybody in a co-ordinating role giving

10     out instructions or who was -- who was running things?

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] It seems to us the witness has

14     already answered this question.  That was the previous question that was

15     put to him, whether anybody had been involved in co-ordination and so on.

16     It's already been dealt with.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think that the previous question was more

18     about -- let me just read it again.

19             Yes, Ms. Marcus, if someone doesn't notice any interaction, would

20     you expect him to notice any co-ordination.  Co-ordination without

21     interaction is difficult for me to understand, isn't it?

22             MS. MARCUS:  Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please rephrase your question and let's --

24             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.  As far as I understood he said

25     that he didn't observe anyone specifically being in charge but he didn't

Page 14983

 1     say whether he observed anybody in a co-ordinating role.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, between the -- there was about co-ordination

 3     between the -- "Were you able to observe any interaction between the

 4     forces that come from Serbia and the Bosnian Serb forces, those who had

 5     been involved in your capture?"  That is, of course, those who come --

 6     who had arrived for the purposes of the release and the others.  But one

 7     question more on this matter and then depending on the answer we'll move

 8     on.

 9             MS. MARCUS:

10        Q.   Are you able to answer the question, Mr. Helgers?

11        A.   Not really.  For me, the one mostly in charge, as per my

12     recollection, through the whole release process was

13     Lieutenant-Colonel Indjic, so that's who I saw was being in charge at our

14     handing over, and later on, I mean, probably it should have been

15     Mr. Koljevic, but, I mean, I didn't observe any real interaction.  It was

16     not clear who was in charge.  It was not something that was clearly

17     distinguishable from the bus at least.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, if you would like to take a break at

20     this point, I have a few more questions after the break.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, could I inquire, will there be any further

22     examination, Mr. Jordash?

23             MR. JORDASH:  At this stage, I don't think so.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Nevertheless, we have a good habit to take a --

25     because you would need five to ten minutes, I take it, then?

Page 14984

 1             MS. MARCUS:  Let me say maximum 15.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Maximum 15.  Then it's certainly useful to take a

 3     break now.  We'll take a break and we'll resume at 4.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 3.31 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 4.05 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, are you ready?  Then please proceed.

 7             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   Mr. Helgers, at any time during the whole release process, did

 9     you see anyone giving instructions to the security chief of

10     Mr. Milosevic?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Did you observe the security chief giving instructions to anybody

13     else?

14        A.   My only recollection of the security chief of Mr. Milosevic is as

15     he was in the bus and made a statement.

16        Q.   Now, as the convoy was departing --

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We have a technical problem.  What I'm saying now is

19     not recorded, nor on video, nor audio.  If you look at your screen,

20     you'll see nothing.  There is a technical problem.  Once it has been

21     identified, I would like to know whether there's a chance that it could

22     be fixed.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Unfortunately, we have to interrupt this hearing and

25     everyone is requested to remain standby.  We have no idea yet how much

Page 14985

 1     time it will take to identify the problem and to fix the problem.  I'm

 2     not a technician, Mr. Helgers, otherwise I would commit myself to -- no,

 3     no, it's very unfortunate.  I hope that it will not take too much time,

 4     especially where we thought ... We would expect easily to finish this

 5     afternoon.  I still hope that we can.

 6             Mr. Jordash, any --

 7             MR. JORDASH:  No, nothing.  I was just taking instructions and

 8     was caught.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll take another break and we'll see

10     when we can proceed.  We stand adjourned.

11                           --- Break taken at 4.09 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Before I invite you to continue, Ms. Marcus,

14     Mr. Helgers, if at any moment you do not feel well, please, address me

15     and don't hesitate to do that.

16             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, if you are ready, you may proceed.

18             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Can I find out whether I

19     need to re-ask the questions that I asked after the break or were they

20     recorded or perhaps we would read it back into the record.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see.  I need the advice of --

22             MS. MARCUS:  I see that the transcript is okay.  I'm just

23     wondering about the recording.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the transcript is okay.  The only thing

25     then, video is there as well?  Video isn't there, transcript is there.

Page 14986

 1     If any of the parties would have any problem in proceeding despite the

 2     fact that it was only one question, isn't it?  The only thing you asked

 3     the witness, Ms. Marcus, is whether during the whole of the release

 4     process did you see anyone giving instructions to the security chief of

 5     Mr. Milosevic.  The answer was no.

 6             And then:  "Did you observe the security chief giving

 7     instructions to anybody else."

 8             And then he said:  "My only recollection of the security chief of

 9     Mr. Milosevic is as he was in the bus and made a statement."  Does any

10     party insist on having this all said again because there's no video?

11             Then we proceed.

12             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Mr. Helgers, when you departed from -- from Pale, from the

14     Presidency, on the road now to Novi Sad, did you observe any sign of

15     final clearance from the Bosnian Serbs as the convoy drove away, or did

16     you view any signal that the convoy could leave, et cetera?

17        A.   Not really.  The whole trip was, I think we had the road for

18     ourselves.  Everything was closed, all the exits and all the roads were

19     blocked so we had one straight trip to -- to the bridge.

20        Q.   Do you recall if the convoy was escorted by a combined force from

21     Serbia and Bosnian Serbs or --

22        A.   I saw several civilian -- we were escorted by several civilian

23     police cars and several, well, military, military police cars in which I

24     think they were the Yugoslav security force were in those military cars.

25     They were green.

Page 14987

 1        Q.   Were you able to observe who was in the civilian police military

 2     cars?

 3        A.   Civilian cars, to me they looked like civilian Bosnian Serb

 4     police cars.

 5        Q.   During the trip you said you had a clear passage through, so

 6     there was no ambush or intercept of the convoy whatsoever along the road;

 7     is that right?

 8        A.   That's correct.

 9        Q.   Was there any sign of violence of any kind along the way?

10        A.   No.  Sorry, in which -- in which way do you mean violence?

11        Q.   Were there any incidents that interrupted the passage?

12        A.   I do remember passing some sort of Bosnian Serb military unit.

13        Q.   What do you recall about that?

14        A.   At a certain section there were some military vehicles including

15     armoured vehicles.

16        Q.   Were you stopped at that location?

17        A.   No, we weren't.

18        Q.   And were you able to observe the demeanour of the Bosnian Serbs

19     at that location as you passed by?

20        A.   Well, they were stopped, so we -- I didn't -- we had more or less

21     uninterrupted flow so we could go on.

22        Q.   Did they exchange any salutes or interaction with the passing

23     convoy?

24        A.   Not that I noticed.  That's obviously not very easy to see in the

25     bus.

Page 14988

 1        Q.   Were you stopped --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please move on, Ms. Marcus, before we go

 3     to whether they had black or brown tires on their cars, let's -- we're

 4     entering detail at this moment.  It's cross-examination of a witness who

 5     was called for, I think, a rather specific purpose.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   Mr. Helgers, do you recall crossing the border between Bosnia and

 9     Serbia?

10        A.   Yes, because it was at a bridge, I don't exactly recollect the

11     location, and there was another media moment.

12        Q.   Was the media moment before crossing the border or after crossing

13     the border, if you recall?

14        A.   I think it was before.

15        Q.   And do you recall observing any interaction between the Bosnian

16     Serbs at that location and the Serbian forces who were escorting you?

17        A.   Not specifically, no.

18        Q.   These are my last questions.  Can you comment at all for us on

19     the atmosphere surrounding the release?  Sometimes when you think of a

20     hostage release, it can be quite a violent or tense atmosphere, I'm

21     trying to get your -- in your own words, how would you describe the

22     atmosphere surrounding the entire release operation?

23        A.   That's a tough one.  Of course it's my interpretation.  I'd say

24     it was relaxed.  Relatively.  I mean, I was a little bit not so relaxed

25     because I was very happy to be released and I had some negative contact

Page 14989

 1     with the Bosnian Serbs just prior to the release, but it was quite -- I

 2     had the impression it was quite relaxed.

 3        Q.   Did it appear to you to be very organised?

 4        A.   It was organised definitely.  I would say it was orchestrated

 5     because the media moments were, in my impression they were very carefully

 6     chosen, the locations, the times.

 7             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you very much, Mr. Helgers, for answering all

 8     my questions.

 9             Your Honours, I have no further questions for the witness.  I do

10     have two bar table submissions if you'd like to me make that submission

11     now.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, perhaps we can deal with them right away.  Yes.

13             MS. MARCUS:  At this time the Prosecution seeks to tender into

14     the evidence from the bar table 65 ter 6307.1 and 65 ter 6318.  These are

15     videos with corresponding transcripts which contain the portions of the

16     suspect interviews of Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Simatovic which deal with the

17     UN hostages.  Let me note before I make my submission on this, that

18     65 ter 6307.1 is a portion of Prosecution 65 ter 606.  That's

19     Mr. Stanisic's suspect interview.  And 65 ter 6318 is a portion of

20     Prosecution 65 ter 607, that's Mr. Simatovic's suspect interview.

21             The portion from the accused Stanisic's interview is eight pages

22     of transcript, from the interview date 13 November 2001 and the portion

23     from the accused Simatovic's interview is five pages of transcript from

24     the interview dated 5 February 2002.  The B/C/S transcripts of the

25     complete suspect interviews for both accused were disclosed in July 2004


Page 14990

 1     and the English translations in April 2007.  The Prosecution submit that

 2     this is directly contextualised by this witness the previous witness,

 3     DST-036.  The Defence has put forth the case that Mr. Stanisic undertook

 4     efforts to release the hostages of his own volition and due to his

 5     humanitarian concern for their release.  They do so --

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry to interrupt, I'm just wondering if -- I'd

 7     like to ask the witness a few questions in re-examination.  I'm wondering

 8     if --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I could not expect, as a matter of fact to that

10     these explanations would follow, but, Ms. Marcus, I think that since you

11     are elaborating on the specific reasons and explaining what the various

12     cases are, that perhaps you deal with it until after we have concluded

13     the testimony of the witness.

14             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That seems to be a good suggestion.

16             First of all, any further -- well, I couldn't say further

17     questions.  Any questions, Mr. Petrovic, triggered by the

18     cross-examination by the Prosecution?

19             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, do you have any further question, yes,

21     apparently you have.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Just a few if I may, please.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

24                           Re-examination by Mr. Jordash:

25        Q.   You were asked by -- sorry to interrupt you?

Page 14991

 1        A.   I'm listening.

 2        Q.   You were asked by my learned friend for the Prosecution about

 3     whether the security forces from Yugoslavia, sorry, from Serbia, the ones

 4     wearing the red berets, were armed and you said I think they were armed,

 5     I probably would have noted if they hadn't been.

 6        A.   That's correct.

 7        Q.   Why do you think you would have noted if they hadn't been?

 8        A.   Because, well, that would have stood out because normally you

 9     would expect them to be armed.  I would expect them to the armed.

10        Q.   Why in that environment would you expect them be armed?

11        A.   The impression I had they were some sort of well, Special Police

12     like force.  I do recall later on in Novi Sad, I definitely remember them

13     being armed, but in the previous -- but in Bosnia, I think I would have

14     remembered if they had not been armed.

15             MR. JORDASH:  Could we please have D00474 MFI.

16        Q.   Would you just have a look at this document --

17             THE REGISTRAR:  This is confidential.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Not to be shown to the public, therefore.

20             MR. JORDASH:

21        Q.   This is a document from the General Staff of the VRS, and it's

22     dated, as you can see, four days after your detention?

23        A.   Sorry, I can't see anything because I was -- yeah.

24        Q.   It's coming.  Would you just have a look and I want to ask you if

25     you are aware of any of these combat operations on-going in Bosnia at the

Page 14992

 1     time of your detention.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Let me go to the next page, I want you to read it

 3     this.  It's a three-page document, I think.  Yes.  And the last page,

 4     thank you.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Could please all unnecessary microphones be

 6     switched off.  Thank you.

 7             MR. JORDASH:

 8        Q.   Do these descriptions accord with your understanding of the type

 9     of combat operations still on-going in May and June in Gorazde, Sarajevo,

10     and other parts of Bosnia?

11        A.   Yes, I was at that moment held hostage at the radar station, I

12     can't really say I was able to really follow the operations on the ground

13     so I can't really comment on that.

14        Q.   Are you able to comment on whether it was your understanding that

15     there were still active combat of some description in the areas where you

16     were detained or where you travelled through on the way to safety in

17     Serbia.

18        A.   No, I can't.

19        Q.   Let me ask you this:  Are you aware of active combat in late May,

20     June between French UNPROFOR and the VRS in Bosnia?

21        A.   During the time I was held hostage, definitely not.

22        Q.   Sorry, you are not --

23        A.   I'm not aware of that.

24        Q.   Before that or after that did you become aware of that?

25        A.   Well, afterwards, I think there was introduced a multinational

Page 14993

 1     brigade which partly consisted of French too, they did some operations,

 2     but I think that's outside of this scope.

 3        Q.   Sorry, you mean it's outside of which scope?

 4        A.   I mean, it's a considerable time later, I think.  At least during

 5     the time I was held hostage, I'm not aware of any combat operations.

 6     There may well have been, probably there have been, but I was held

 7     hostage, I was not really being informed very well.

 8        Q.   I'm talking about what you learned perhaps later on?

 9        A.   No, nothing.

10        Q.   Okay.  I'll leave it there.

11             MR. JORDASH:  May I tender this from the bar table though,

12     please.  Perhaps I can deal with that later with the other exhibits.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's a bit of an odd document because it tells

14     us what someone intends to do on the 2nd of May, but the document itself

15     is dated the end of May.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  First page, there's reference to the 2nd of May.

18             MR. JORDASH:  I don't see the 2nd of May.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll help you out, Mr. Jordash.

20             MR. JORDASH:  Oh, I do see that.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a bit of a surprise in a document which is

22     dated the 30th of May.

23             MR. JORDASH:  Well, we'll check the original and see --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  The original also says the 2nd of May, Mr. Jordash,

25     so that doesn't bring you the solution.


Page 14994

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Well, perhaps the --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps it's an error in that reference to the

 3     2nd of June is meant.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Or maybe "for" as it should have said "from".

 5     We'll check that and get back to you on this.

 6             MS. MARCUS:  I think if I can just add the English translation of

 7     this document does fall quite short of a good English translation, I must

 8     say.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  But the -- from the translation, we see that

10     it's only provisional draft translation that I think decisions on

11     admission can be taken even if there would be an order to have a better

12     translation, but we'll deal with that in a second.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Mr. Helgers.

14             JUDGE ORIE:

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16                           Questioned by the Court:

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Helgers, I have two short questions, when this

18     document was signed by the man you said had a red beret, was this man

19     companied by men similarly dressed or do you remember?

20             THE WITNESS:  There were several of the Yugoslav security forces

21     present at that time.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And they were dressed in a similar way.

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes, uniforms, Yugoslav uniforms and red berets.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now another question, were you ever involved

25     in how you would be released and to where you would be released, because

Page 14995

 1     you find you were released and then taken to Serbia, but to your

 2     knowledge has it ever been considered that you would go back to those

 3     people who you were working with before you were, that is, to --

 4             THE WITNESS:  To the Bosnian Serb side?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, or at least to the -- to be given over to the

 6     UNMO.

 7             THE WITNESS:  I was never informed of any plans that way

 8     whatsoever.  I mean, we weren't really, I at least wasn't really informed

 9     about the whole procedure.  It's ...

10             JUDGE ORIE:  It was a surprise for you, where you were taken,

11     more or less.

12             THE WITNESS:  Well, it was clear we were going to be released

13     because we were all collected and most of the colleagues had already been

14     released, but the exact way in which it was to happen was not clear.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  I have no further questions.

16             Have my questions triggered any need for further questions,

17     Ms. Marcus, do you have any?

18             MS. MARCUS:  No, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Helgers, this concludes your testimony.

20     I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having

21     answered all the questions put to you by the parties and by the Bench.

22     And I wish you a safe return home again.

23             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

25                           [The witness withdrew]


Page 14996

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Exhibits.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  The following exhibits are not on the 65 ter list

 3     and we are requesting permission to add and the Prosecution have no

 4     objection to them being added and tendered:  1D05173.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, let me see whether we can follow it.

 6     5173.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  1D05 --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that is the map of hostage locations in

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, part of the 92 ter associated exhibits.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, the OTP position was no objection if

12     confirmed by the witness through 92 ter confirmation process.  I think it

13     is in his statement that he pointed at that map, so that's confirmed.

14     Yes, next one, Mr. Jordash.

15             MR. JORDASH:  1D05174.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  74.  Any way to identify it on the ...?

17             MS. MARCUS:  It's number 37, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  37.  Yes, yes.

19             MR. JORDASH:  It's the video.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I was looking down from 173 down for 174, but I

21     had to look up.  Yes, that's no objection.

22             MR. JORDASH:  1D05263, which is again a video of a hostage.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, where the name of Mr. Raamakers is spelled.  No

24     objection from the Prosecution.

25             MR. JORDASH:  No objection.  And 1D05264, which is a VRS

Page 14997

 1     intelligence report dated the 26th of May, 1995, no objection.  And all

 2     these exhibits I've just mentioned are public.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D5173 would receive number D514.

 5     Document 1D5174, number D515.  And document 1D5263 number D516,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And then 5264 is?

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Number D517, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  D514 up to and including D517 are admitted into

10     evidence.  Any more, Mr. Jordash?

11             MR. JORDASH:  The following are documents which were used in the

12     process of examining this witness and we would like to tender the

13     following:  1D05161.  Prosecution have no objection if that's bar tabled.

14     It wasn't on the 65 ter list so we apply to add and we apply to bar

15     table.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see what is 5161.  It's nowhere on this list?

17             MS. MARCUS:  It's number 34, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Number 34.  And that will receive, Madam Registrar,

19     number ...?

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Number D518, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And it's admitted into evidence.  Next, Mr. Jordash?

22             MR. JORDASH:  1D05270.  It's not on our 65 ter list.  The

23     Prosecution have no objection to it being added and tendered.

24             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, I'd like to make an amendment to that,

25     I am sorry.

Page 14998

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  5270.  Is it on the list, on the chart anywhere?

 2             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, I don't think this was on the chart.  I

 3     think there was an e-mail exchange before court.  However, upon closer

 4     examination, the segment of the video -- sorry.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's a video segment, I do understand.  Yes,

 6     what is the video about, I mean, if we want, is that the part played?

 7             MS. MARCUS:  The part played with the two detained hostages on

 8     the bridge.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MS. MARCUS:  And number on the chart number 41 is a more complete

11     segment of the same footage and it's quite, I think, quite important in

12     this case to show the previous part, what happened just before those

13     hostages were interviewed, in particular because they're coached as to

14     what to say.  So since it's a subset of number 41, that is 1D5153, it

15     appears that the larger segment, with the part where they're coached

16     before provides the most accurate picture of what was happening.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you would say that gives further context to --

18     Mr. Jordash, Ms. Marcus is not objecting against admission but wants, for

19     context, to have a broader document.

20             MR. JORDASH:  I don't think they are at the same video, in facts.

21     They are two different ERNs, so I think what my learned friend is asking

22     for is to be added to the exhibit or the proposed exhibit is not in fact

23     part of the same video, but in relation to --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  What about trying to agree on whether it is or not,

25     Ms. Marcus, wouldn't that be a good idea.

Page 14999

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Could I say this though, we can agree on this, that

 2     we don't rely upon the truth of what those hostages said.  We are not

 3     suggesting that what they said was the truth, and we are happy to concede

 4     they've been coached for publicity purposes.

 5             MS. MARCUS:  I recognise it's not an issue, I mean, I recognise

 6     that.  At the same time I feel that the context should be there.  We can

 7     check it and then we can perhaps MFI it for the moment and double-check

 8     that this is, actually, a more complete version of that footage.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  What about the following:  If it is the same video,

10     then, Mr. Jordash, since you do not dispute that they were coached, then

11     may I take it there is no major objections against that for

12     contextualisation be admitted as well.  You agree on what is needed for

13     that and if it's not the same video, then we have your statement here in

14     court that you admit that there was coaching, you concede that they were

15     coached.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, that's conceded.  I would need to see the

17     earlier part of the video before --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  So you first try to find out whether it's the same

19     video.  If so, you agree on how to produce that, how to tender that and

20     if it's not the same video, Ms. Marcus, then at least you have the

21     concession of Mr. Jordash that coaching was there.

22             MS. MARCUS:  And then, Your Honour, we would probably seek leave

23     to tender the former portion for context.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I wanted to keep matters simple.  You consider, you

25     discuss the matter and you'll come back to it.

Page 15000

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We start reserving a number for a video of two

 3     persons chained to a bridge either with what happened before, what

 4     happened previously, or tendering of two documents.  We'll hear from you.

 5     The number reserved for one video to start with, Ms. Madam Registrar,

 6     would be ...?

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be D519, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  D519 is reserved for those purposes.

 9             Mr. Jordash.

10             MR. JORDASH:  1D05254.  It's not on our 65 ter list.  There's no

11     objection to add it -- adding it and there's no objection to tendering

12     it.  Apparently earlier on I referred to it and it was recorded on the

13     transcript as 1D05250, which is an error.  It's 1D05254 which is --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Video footage of Jovica Stanisic speaking to

15     released UN hostages.  Is that what you are talking about?

16             MR. JORDASH:  That's the one.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the one.  Leave is granted to add it to your

18     65 ter list.

19             MR. JORDASH:  And then --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And then it is admitted into evidence under number,

21     Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  D520, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  D520.

24             MR. JORDASH:  And then finally, the last two issues.  1D05265, is

25     also an associated exhibit, I should have dealt with that in the first

Page 15001

 1     list.  There's no -- it's not on our 65 ter list, there's no objection

 2     from the Prosecution to add it and thereafter tender it.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Do we find it -- yes, I see it on the chart under

 4     number 41.  VRS intelligence and security sector, intelligence regarding

 5     UN forces dated the 27th of May.  Leave is granted to add it to your

 6     65 ter list and the document is exhibited into evidence under,

 7     Madam Registrar, number ...?

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Number D521, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  D521.

10             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.  Then finally, D512 was discussed

11     earlier and the Prosecution thought that this was subject to Rule 70

12     restrictions but it's not.  It was a public exhibit in the Karadzic

13     trial, Exhibit P2177.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Rule 70 material is in itself not related to

15     public or not, but of course it would be a bit odd if you would admit

16     publicly into evidence a document and then say, in another case, it

17     should not be used in evidence.  That's -- Ms. Marcus.

18             MS. MARCUS:  No, I agree, Your Honour.  I had checked it but I

19     hadn't found it in the Karadzic case.  So if it's admitted publicly, it

20     can be admitted publicly here.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Out of an abundance of caution should we not verify

22     that it's admitted publicly.

23             MS. MARCUS:  It's admitted publicly, Your Honour, in Karadzic.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, D512 therefore is now a public document, and we

25     had decided on admission not -- it was marked for identification, or we

Page 15002

 1     have admitted already?  I think there was -- the issue was whether there

 2     was any clearance for this case and I really do not see, even if it has

 3     once been Rule 70 material, I can't see any logic in admitting it

 4     publicly in one case and even if no clearance is given for another case

 5     to not admit it in that other case.  Was it Rule 70 material, that's, of

 6     course, the first question.

 7             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour, it was originally Rule 70

 8     material.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you give the green light and some Rule 70

10     providers do that specifically for one case, but if it then is a public

11     exhibit, then of course it's totally unimaginable, different from a

12     confidential exhibit, that the same would not apply in any other case.

13             MS. MARCUS:  Perhaps I didn't understand Your Honours question

14     but --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me try to explain.  What does Rule 70 mean?

16     That is to provide material for the purpose of generating further

17     evidence but that information not to be used as evidence.  Now, I think

18     there is some practice that some of the Rule 70 providers have given the

19     green light to use a certain document or certain information as evidence,

20     and at the same time say we give this green light only for this

21     particular case.  Now, that works only, I would say, if it is admitted

22     confidentially in that case, then there's a way that -- at least there's

23     a possibility of keeping it out of other cases.  If it's publicly

24     admitted, I do not see how this is possibly -- could be possibly

25     effective.

Page 15003

 1             MS. MARCUS:  I agree, Your Honour, completely, so since it's been

 2     admitted publicly in Karadzic which I hadn't been able to find before, I

 3     would say that the Rule 70 restrictions wouldn't apply anymore and --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Therefore, D512 is admitted into evidence as a

 5     public document.

 6             Anything else, Mr. Jordash?

 7             MR. JORDASH:  No, thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see, D512.  What was it exactly?  It was

 9     the -- could you remind me, Mr. Jordash, what exactly the D512 was?  Let

10     me check.

11             MR. JORDASH:  It's a summary of a news report about the

12     air-strikes.  It was --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes, I now remember.  It was the document in

14     which all the press reports were represented, and then some comments.  If

15     that's all for you, Mr. Petrovic, you've got nothing to ask as far as you

16     are concerned.  I take it if you don't jump up, then I take it there are

17     no objections of whatever kind.  Ms. Marcus started to explain to us why

18     she considered it reasonable to bar table a document.

19             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour, yes.  Our position with

20     respect to these isolated portions of the suspect interviews is that this

21     evidence directly rebuts the Defence position as to the motivation for

22     the accused's involvement in the hostage release.  The Prosecution

23     submits that the words of the accused in their own suspect interviews

24     directly rebut the assertions.  The suspect interviews show, firstly,

25     that the accused Stanisic did not undertake involvement in the release of

Page 15004

 1     the hostages of his own volition but was instructed to do so.  And that

 2     the motivation for the release was purely political and for the benefit

 3     of both the Republika Srpska and Serbia.

 4             The accused should not be permitted, in our submission, to

 5     benefit from a presumption which neither he nor his co-accused, who was

 6     also present at the hostage release, put forward in their own suspect

 7     interviews.  Therefore, Your Honours, the Prosecution has uploaded, with

 8     the 65 ter number 6307.1 and 6318, the videos of those interviews with

 9     the corresponding transcripts, and tenders them from the bar table.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections?

11             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, there are objections to that application.

12     Firstly, there's been no proper notice that this would form part of the

13     Prosecution case.  They've had notice of the accused's position in

14     relation to the hostages for well on seven years and yet have failed to

15     issue any notice whatsoever that these would form part of their case.

16     Number one.

17             Number two, that obviously has certain consequences.  It has

18     consequences in terms of fundamental right to be informed of the nature

19     and cause of the Prosecution case.  To suddenly add to the Prosecution

20     case this at the end or towards the end of the first accused Defence

21     case, cannot in our submission reasonably be considered to be proper

22     notice and is of course, in our submission, a complete violation of the

23     accused's right to know the case against him.

24             Secondly, I'm not sure that I understand the Prosecution's

25     reasons for using this interview.  I haven't had time to look properly at

Page 15005

 1     the interviews because we were ambushed by this application at the last

 2     minute.  No notice came forward at a time we could have adequately

 3     prepared for the submission, so I'm doing it off the top of my head, as I

 4     think of the issues arising.  It would have been good and useful to have

 5     proper notice of the argument.

 6             But in relation to what my learned friend says are the reasons, I

 7     don't think Mr. Stanisic has ever said that he took action to negotiate

 8     the release of the hostages of his own volition.  It would be an absurd

 9     position to advance, that he picked himself up from Belgrade and headed

10     out to save the hostages without any instruction or order from any other

11     senior or leader, or senior authority.  Where my learned friend gets that

12     from is a mystery to me.

13             In relation to the second point that it was not for the benefit

14     or that Mr. Stanisic, as I understand it, has somehow misled the Court by

15     claiming that it was for a different purpose, I don't think we've ever in

16     the Defence excluded any particular reason.  We say in our Defence that

17     the reason he, Stanisic, acted as he did was for a number of reasons.

18     One, because he had been instructed to do so.  Two, because he had

19     concern for the hostages.  And, three, because the hostage crisis was

20     undermining and preventing the Contact Group from continuing to negotiate

21     peace.  There's a number of reasons, and in our submission, that's

22     obvious.  My learned friends's submissions, in our submission, are not

23     specific enough to justify such a violation, if it can be justified, of

24     the accused's right to be informed of the case.  My learned friend

25     should, at the very minimum, in our submission, take us to the portions

Page 15006

 1     of those interviews which she says somehow rebuts a position which we

 2     have put forward which cannot sustained on the basis of these interviews.

 3     Because without that we are floating in the dark.  Those are our

 4     submissions, thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we also object to

 7     the admission of these segments of an interview and we support what my

 8     learned friend Mr. Jordash said.  We would also add that, considering

 9     that this is something very specific as an interview with the accused, we

10     wish to be granted some time from you so that considering the specific

11     legal practice in this court we might state our position about this in a

12     motion that we would file.  And I would also use this opportunity to say

13     that when Mr. Simatovic gave this interview, he had not been freed from

14     his obligation to keep state secrets, which throws a specific light on

15     the contents of what he said in that interview.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus.

17             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour, just to respond briefly.  The

18     complete suspect interviews were on the 65 ter list from the beginning.

19     The Prosecution, in the end, did not seek to tender them because

20     generally we find the interviews to be entirely self-serving.  In this

21     particular instance, the fact that a self-serving interview should not

22     contain any assertion that the release of the hostages was, as

23     Mr. Jordash said, because he had concern for the hostages, demonstrates

24     that this is something that was created by the Defence later.  It

25     directly rebuts one thing that Mr. Jordash just said and what they've put

Page 15007

 1     forward which they seek to use in mitigation and they seek to use to

 2     impact upon the intent that's found by the Chamber with respect to the

 3     commission of crimes.

 4             These portions of the suspect interviews, very brief portions,

 5     eight pages for Mr. Stanisic and five for Mr. Simatovic, are focused

 6     specifically on the UN hostage issue.  They are isolated and only on that

 7     issue.  Those are the only portions we seek to tender and there is no

 8     mention by either accused of any concern for the hostages as any part of

 9     any of the discussion relating to the hostages.  Therefore, Your Honours,

10     we feel that it is in fact directly related to what evidence the Defence

11     has led in this respect.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Just very briefly if I may, two things.  It doesn't

14     matter, in our submission, that the Prosecution discloses these documents

15     to us at a given time.  They've disclosed hundreds of thousands of

16     documents to or pages of documents over the last seven or eight years.

17     We can't be expected to just make a blanket assumption that they are

18     going to be part of the Prosecution case.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, you are talking about

20     disclosure, Ms. Marcus is talking about having it on the 65 ter list.

21     That's not exactly the same, isn't it?

22             MR. JORDASH:  Well, it is the same to us in the sense that if

23     it's not --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Isn't it true that you put a document on the 65 ter

25     list when you seriously consider to use that as evidence and that is not,

Page 15008

 1     I would say that's for electronic disclosure under Rule 68(ii) it is

 2     not -- that's disclosure, but if it's not on the 65 ter list, there's

 3     even a fair expectation that the party disclosing it doesn't intend to

 4     seek it to be admitted.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Well --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm just linguistically trying to understand, you

 7     are using words which are not the same as the ones used by Ms. Marcus.  I

 8     want to --

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- clarify it first.  Yes.

11             MR. JORDASH:  I accept that there is a distinction.  I cannot

12     recall actually Mr. Stanisic's interview being on the 65 ter list.  It

13     was something that I thought was rather curious at the time.  I might

14     have got that wrong, but, again, we haven't had a chance to check this

15     because we've been ambushed by the argument.  But I would ask that we be

16     given some time, just a little time just to check whether that's correct

17     because I don't think it is correct.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I think Mr. Petrovic asked for more time, you asked

19     for more time.

20             MR. JORDASH:  But --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  But I'm not going to cut you off in your argument,

22     so please proceed.

23             MR. JORDASH:  I do accept there is a distinction, but it's -- in

24     the end it's a distinction without a difference when a document is

25     produced from the non-65 ter disclosure or the 65 ter list at this late

Page 15009

 1     stage.  The issue of prejudice is the same.  We cannot be expected to

 2     guess at what documents might come into the case at the end of the first

 3     accused's defence or towards the end.  We ought to have proper notice

 4     that it will form part of the Prosecution case.  That's the issue.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could I ask you one question:  Why exactly --

 6     why exactly did you call this witness?  To establish what?

 7             MR. JORDASH:  To establish what happened during the meeting with

 8     Stanisic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Was there any dispute about that?

10             MR. JORDASH:  I think that it seems almost everything is disputed

11     by the Prosecution in relation to the Defence case, but --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, that's not an answer to my question, is

13     it?  Of course to say I call whatever witnesses because I cannot -- was

14     there dispute about what happened during this very short moment when the

15     witness met Mr. Stanisic very briefly?

16             MR. JORDASH:  I don't know is the answer to that because I don't

17     know --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it would have been good to try to find that

19     out because if that's the purpose of calling a witness from far away,

20     that's -- I would have checked, first of all, whether there's any dispute

21     about that.

22             Okay.  That's what you wanted to establish what was said -- it

23     was 92 ter, not 92 bis because the testimony was there, the statement was

24     there.  And that's, of course, the moment to consider whether it's in

25     dispute yes or no.  If it's not in dispute, then 92 bis is easier, I

Page 15010

 1     think.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Well, we took the view, sorry, Your Honour, we took

 3     the view given that the Prosecution have objected to every 92 bis

 4     application we've made and we anticipated they would, that we better --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not true, Mr. Jordash.  Isn't it?  DST-070.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  I said almost every.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I think you said to every 92 bis application we've

 8     made, that's what the transcript says and that's what I heard you say.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, I thought I said almost.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  That was a slip of the tongue.

11             MR. JORDASH:  But apart from one, I think, they've objected.  On

12     a basis which is much less, we would submit, than the issue of the

13     witness testifying to the acts and conduct of the accused.  This witness

14     was going to testify in our view, to the acts and conduct of the accused

15     and so --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that may have been a good reason to call him, I

17     admit that, that it's directly acts and conduct of the accused.  I stand

18     corrected in that respect.  Yes, and you would say that nothing in the

19     evidence is such that the motives were part of what you sought to

20     establish?

21             MR. JORDASH:  Absolutely -- well.  Well, I think in some way we

22     were going to motive because we were saying that Mr. Stanisic had behaved

23     properly and in a way which perhaps the Bosnian Serbs had not, certainly

24     in the way that the Bosnian Serbs had not, so we were saying that his

25     behaviour was proper and reasonable and reassuring.  So we were in that

Page 15011

 1     sense going to how Mr. Stanisic had behaved.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And in your questioning you have asked some

 3     attention for at least for that it is not a nice situation to be in if

 4     you were a hostage, so, therefore, I would say the humanitarian aspect

 5     comes up there although not perhaps very explicit, but it allows you to

 6     argue that --

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, of course I'm thinking about how fair or

 9     unfair it is, whether to what extent the hostage issue was part of the

10     Prosecution's case or whether the Prosecution is rebutting something

11     which, perhaps, implicitly is there.  I think we have to -- I have to

12     discuss it -- we have to, the Chamber has to discuss it anyway.  You are

13     asking for more time.  Anything you would like to add?

14             MR. JORDASH:  Only one thing, the premise of the Prosecution's

15     submission is also not correct.  If one looks at paragraph -- sorry, page

16     34 of this transcript of Mr. Stanisic's interview, he emphasises, nobody

17     was hurt, I made sure that the officers who were without uniforms and

18     without weapons that they looked dignified and they not be humiliated, I

19     think this was done very directly.  So there is evidence in this

20     interview of his humanitarian concern and perhaps --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  But that is, I would say that's -- I think whenever

22     one party selects a certain portion of a document, the other party is

23     always given an opportunity to further contextualise that and if you say,

24     well, it sheds light on the fact that there may have been various motives

25     and that the political one doesn't necessarily exclude.  I would say

Page 15012

 1     politicians are not per definition ignoring humanitarian grounds, I mean,

 2     that's -- any suggestion in that direction might cause some problems in

 3     the political world.  I'm not in the political world.

 4             If you want to add that -- this for context, would you have any

 5     objection to that, Ms. Marcus?

 6             MS. MARCUS:  That's part of the exhibit, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Part of the exhibit, but is it also part of the

 8     pages you have selected.

 9             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, it is, Your Honour.

10             MR. JORDASH:  But, Your Honour, it is not our position that the

11     adding of context is permissible in all instances.  What overrides that

12     is the fundamental right be informed of the nature and cause of the

13     charges.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Your basic objection is there.  Only I was wondering

15     that if, and I can't anticipate what the Chamber will decide, but if it

16     would admit it, whether there would be any other portions you would like

17     to add for contextualisation, and it was purely theoretical at this

18     moment because we have to consider, after we've heard from you further,

19     whether or not we'll admit the two -- the portions of the interviews the

20     Prosecution is tendering.

21             Any other argument to add?

22             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I would only add this:  If Your Honours -- I

23     mean, given Your Honours' approach to the admission of evidence, we would

24     expect this document to come in now and I would then request that this

25     document come in for the very specific reason which has been put forward,

Page 15013

 1     that it displays, according to the Prosecution, a lack of motive for,

 2     shall we say, humanitarian concerns and not for any other reason, because

 3     I look through this interview and I see other aspects which I'm

 4     absolutely sure the Prosecution will want to rely upon as the truth of

 5     the contents.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  This is to some extent new, Mr. Jordash.  Usually

 7     we've said you can add something for contextualisation.  If you say

 8     there's context in it which is inappropriate to be presented so cut it

 9     down, that would be a new approach but we would have to consider that as

10     well.

11             MR. JORDASH:  This portion of the interview --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Now, any other argument?  You say I'm

13     concerned about portions in there not dealing with the matter for which

14     Ms. Marcus tenders the document and you would like to have that taken out

15     if the Chamber would decide to admit that document.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, and I would like the Prosecution to be

17     restricted to the use of this portion if they are allowed to use it.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, that is a clear position.

19             Ms. Marcus, any further comments on that.

20             MS. MARCUS:  Only, Your Honour, that this is the portion that

21     deals with the UN hostages.  For the context of what the accused is

22     saying, I think it would be taken out of context to take a portion out of

23     it.  Otherwise, I've made my submissions, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's what you are exclusively aiming to

25     establish that.  Yes.  Let me just consult my colleagues.

Page 15014

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, the Chamber will further consider the

 3     matter which also allows you to take a bit more time.  When do you think

 4     you could make further submissions, it's perhaps not a matter for which

 5     we'd need written submissions, I think it can be dealt with orally and

 6     the Chamber will then better be able to decide on admission, yes or no,

 7     and then the next step would be if we consider to admit it, that you then

 8     say, but please take this out, please take that out.  Or ...

 9             MR. JORDASH:  The problem we have is that it's plain to us that

10     the Prosecution intends to use this document for the wider purposes and

11     that's why my learned friend insists that the whole document should go

12     in.  I think the fair approach is for the Prosecution to lay out their

13     position in totality as to why they want this document so that we can

14     deal with everything at one point.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  But the whole document, we are talking about --

16             MR. JORDASH:  The whole excerpt.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  If that is your concern, then why not sit together

18     and say our concern is mainly focusing on this portion and then

19     Ms. Marcus could consider whether or not that is --

20             MR. JORDASH:  But our concern is the -- sorry, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, you are objecting.  We give you further time

22     to consider it.  We say we will not decide at this very moment.  You make

23     further submissions.  But then it was silent for five seconds and then

24     you said, well, we think that the Prosecution is tendering for other

25     purposes and why not try to see whether that's true or not.  Ms. Marcus

Page 15015

 1     apparently says that that's not her purpose.  If you can agree on any

 2     such matter, please present it to the Chamber.  If not, we'll hear your

 3     further arguments and then --

 4             MR. JORDASH:  If the Prosecution are not prepared to stand up now

 5     and say they will not use this document for any other purpose than that

 6     which they've indicated, then I don't think us sitting down with the

 7     Prosecution is going to assist, if they won't do it in open court, they

 8     won't do it behind the court.

 9             MS. MARCUS:  The Prosecution intends, would intend, to use this

10     document for the purpose of rebutting the Defence case as to the -- the

11     involvement of Mr. Stanisic in the release of the hostages.  So the

12     arguments that the Defence puts forward as to mitigation or the impact on

13     mens rea of the accused as they will derive from his involvement in the

14     release of the UN hostages, the Prosecution will put this forward as one

15     piece of the evidence to rebut that assertion and for that purpose only.

16             MR. JORDASH:  In other words, they can use any part of the

17     document for any purpose whatsoever.  That's what that amounts to.  If

18     it's mens rea.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  If it's for that purpose only, yes, mens rea not

20     actus reus.

21             MR. JORDASH:  If it's mens rea they can pick out anything from

22     this transcript and say this shows Stanisic's mens rea in relation to the

23     charges.  There's nothing specific about what my learned friend has said

24     to limit them in any way to the use of this document.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me read.

Page 15016

 1             MR. JORDASH:  On the contrary.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  As to mitigation or the impact on the mens rea of

 3     the accused.  It's not only mitigation, it's also impact, Ms. Marcus.

 4             MS. MARCUS:  It's to rebut the Defence's case that the viva voce

 5     in the UN hostage release should serve as mitigation or should impact

 6     somehow on the mens rea.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Somehow, that apparently is --

 8             MS. MARCUS:  Well, it's unclear -- the Defence has made broad

 9     representations about the fact that this involvement will -- will in some

10     way demonstrate that the accused didn't have the mens rea for the

11     commission of the crimes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The Defence gets more time to make further

13     submissions.  The Chamber will then decide on admission, yes or no, and

14     we'll hear further submissions if need be for widening or broadening or

15     limiting the selected portions.  At the same time, I would urge the

16     parties to see whether they can agree on this matter in one way or

17     another and to find such a formulation that we don't have to spend on

18     this for ages where I would say the main purpose for the Prosecution and

19     the main concern by the Defence are clear, and I wonder whether with good

20     intentions from both sides there's any way to reconcile the two

21     positions.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Could I, Your Honour, yes, I just for Your Honours'

23     information, it was on the 65 ter list until the 16th of May, 2008, when

24     it was dropped from the 65 ter list.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus.

Page 15017

 1             MS. MARCUS:  I will double-check that, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MS. MARCUS:  If that's the case, I do apologise for that.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then this may be part of your further

 5     submissions.

 6             Any other matter.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Since we expect the submission to be oral I'll not

 9     set a dead-line but at the earliest convenient moment you should be

10     prepared to make such submissions.  Then, practically, we have no further

11     witness for this week?

12             MR. JORDASH:  No, we've contacted --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And we are uncertain about even next week, isn't it?

14             MR. JORDASH:  We spoke to the witness DST-060 last week when the

15     application had been made.  He was aware of it, he is aware it's -- I

16     think we spoke to him actually after the decision had been made, and he

17     is aware of it and it's coming -- he is aware it's coming and he is aware

18     it's demanding what it's demanding.  And we contacted the Registry this

19     morning and there was no news, so we are in the dark really as is, I

20     think, everyone else.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes, which means that, of course, we hope to

22     hear the evidence of Witness DST-060 before we start with the Defence

23     case, the Simatovic Defence case, that's --

24             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  But can't say much about it at this very moment.

Page 15018

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac.

 3             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you allow me just a

 4     minute.  [French on English channel] [Overlapping speakers] ... on the

 5     cross-examination of --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I love the French language but I got it on my

 7     English channel.  I think -- could you please restart, Mr. Bakrac, I

 8     allow you a minute, yes.

 9             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I'll try to

10     restrict myself to just one minute.  Could the Trial Chamber please

11     render a decision on the cross-examination of

12     Witness Manojlo Milovanovic, we believe that his cross-examination and

13     further questioning would affect our own Defence case and the possibility

14     of calling certain witness and so on.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The only thing I can say that we are working hard on

16     the decision and sometimes even before the decision is in every respect

17     finalised that we would perhaps even inform you already.  But we'll see

18     how that develops, but it's -- we'll deal with it with priority.

19             Any other matter?  Which means that we will adjourn, there being

20     no witnesses this week, we'll adjourn until Monday, the 21st of November,

21     3.00 in the afternoon for the 54 bis hearing.

22             And isn't it true that there were some -- I heard -- I was

23     informed that there was a problem with the scheduling of that hearing,

24     from what I understand, not from the parties?

25             MR. JORDASH:  From our side, no.

Page 15019

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, no.  But --

 2             MS. MARCUS:  Nothing from our side, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I know that, but the problem, if it is there, it

 4     comes from ...

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  There is a document which was just handed out to me.

 7     Just read the title, it has not been filed:  "The Republic of Serbia's

 8     notice of objection in relation to the Trial Chamber I order from the

 9     4th of November, 2011 scheduling a hearing."  So apparently there is

10     something, I haven't read it yet, it's ten pages approximately.  So let's

11     first read it.  Therefore, perhaps it's wiser to adjourn sine die but you

12     it could be the 21st of November, it could be the 22nd of November, it

13     could be the 23rd, we don't know.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Could I query one thing.  Do Your Honours envisage

15     that the hearing will involve, or should involve, the examination of the

16     relevant official?  I ask because I'd like the opportunity to prepare to

17     conduct that examination.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  What do you mean exactly by examination?  I think we

19     invited but I'm now talking by top of my head, we invited the Republic of

20     Serbia to appear so that we had an opportunity to discuss with them or at

21     least ask questions about -- whether you call that an examination,

22     certainly not like a witness.

23             MR. JORDASH:  I'm trying to see the distinction between --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, yes, you can ask questions to a state and of

25     course, it's a physical person who has to appear and give the answers,

Page 15020

 1     but for example, a witness takes the oath.  That's not the position, as I

 2     understand it, at this moment, the position of representatives and by the

 3     Republic of Serbia to attend the hearing.  Of course, we expect answers

 4     to any questions that there may be.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Then, I understand the position.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Any further matter?

 7             If not, we stand adjourned sine die.  Parties should be prepared

 8     for a hearing on the 21st of November if that scheduling stands.

 9     Otherwise depending on the appearance of witness during that week for the

10     days after that.

11                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.29 p.m.,

12                           sine die.