Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15240

 1                           Tuesday, 29 November 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is case number IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus

 9     Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that the Stanisic Defence would like to

12     address the Chamber.  Mr. Jordash.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.  It's in relation again to

14     the medical situation.  I spoke to Mr. Stanisic and he -- the situation

15     is a little more complex than perhaps I indicated yesterday, in that

16     there's two further aspects which give us concern which we wanted to

17     bring to Your Honours' attention.  Firstly, that Dr. Falkner does not

18     appear to have been replaced, so as far as Mr. Stanisic can see or

19     ascertain, the UNDU doesn't have a treating doctor.  Certainly, he hasn't

20     become aware of such.  And, secondly, in relation to the reporting

21     doctor, Mr. Stanisic is concerned that the reporting doctor doesn't have

22     the available information, hasn't familiarised himself with the available

23     information about Mr. Stanisic's health.  Obviously the two aspects which

24     I raise are interconnected.  If there is no treating doctor, then it's

25     difficult to see where the reporting doctor is obtaining his information

Page 15241

 1     to be able to form the conclusions that he purports to form on a weekly

 2     basis.

 3             So there are the two principal concerns, no treating doctor it

 4     appears and a reporting doctor who, because of that and because of his

 5     newness, isn't apprised of the relevant information.  So I raise that and

 6     put that on the record for Your Honours' consideration.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jordash.  I will take care that what

 8     you just said will be part of the inquiries which will be made on behalf

 9     of the Chamber which are scheduled to start already today.

10             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

12                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

13             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, could I -- a point for clarification, if I

14     may.  Apparently there is a treating doctor but he has only just arrived

15     in the last week or two.  So the concerns remain the same, the newness of

16     both now.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Jordash.

18             I hope that we'll be able to address the matter and if not

19     tomorrow, then since most likely we are not sitting the rest of the week,

20     there will be ways found to communicate with the Stanisic Defence.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you very much.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And whether it will be the Chamber or whether it

23     will be those responsible for the medical care is a second matter, but

24     the Chamber keeps a close eye on it.

25             Then if there's nothing else to be raised, could the witness be


Page 15242

 1     brought into the courtroom.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Grekulovic.  I'd like to remind

 4     you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you've given

 5     yesterday that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

 6     the truth.

 7             Mr. Bakrac will now continue his cross-examination.

 8             Mr. Bakrac.

 9             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Good

10     morning to everybody in the courtroom and around the courtroom.

11                           WITNESS:  SRDJAN GREKULOVIC [Resumed]

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:  [Continued]

14        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Grekulovic.  I will briefly look at one part of

15     your statement.  In paragraph 23 when you spoke about Arkan, you stated

16     that to your best recollection Arkan didn't have anything to do with the

17     forces of the MUP of Serbia present in the Republika Srpska; is that

18     correct?

19        A.   Yes, it is.

20        Q.   Let us now look at -- or rather, you said in paragraph 12 that

21     during your stint in the Republika Srpska, the forces under your command

22     did not have any tasks together with the Army of Republika Srpska.  You

23     also stated that you didn't have anything to do with the Army of the

24     Republika Srpska?

25        A.   That's correct, with the only exception being the military

Page 15243

 1     police.

 2        Q.   The military police with regard to capturing the deserters; is

 3     that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] Can we now look at a D document.

 6     D140.  And then I will invite your comments, Mr. Grekulovic.  D140, can

 7     it be displayed.

 8        Q.   The document is not long, please read it carefully.

 9             Mr. Grekulovic, this is a dispatch.  It seems that it was signed

10     by the deputy minister Tomislav Kovac on the 20th of September, 1995.  At

11     the time Tomislav Kovac was the deputy minister of what and where?

12        A.   He was the deputy minister of the interior of the

13     Republika Srpska.

14        Q.   And he says here at the beginning, "Based on a decision on the RS

15     president," was it Republika Srpska?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Who was the president of the Republika Srpska at the time?

18        A.   It was Mr. Radovan Karadzic.

19        Q.   Is my interpretation good when I say that this dispatch

20     demonstrates that, based on a decision of the president of the

21     Republika Srpska, Mr. Radovan Karadzic, all armed forces in the zone of

22     responsibility were unified, and that zone of responsibility was the zone

23     of the 1st and the 2nd Krajina Corps?

24        A.   This refers to the forces of the MUP of the Republika Srpska, not

25     the forces from Serbia.  There are no members of our staffs or our

Page 15244

 1     employees among those forces.

 2        Q.   This is precisely what I wanted to ask you, Mr. Grekulovic.

 3     There are two staffs here, one for Doboj and the other for Prijedor.  You

 4     looked at the names, would you say that any of those names, any of those

 5     persons belong to the MUP of the Republic of Serbia?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   When we look at the staff of Prijedor, we see the name of

 8     Zeljko Raznjatovic.  Is this Arkan?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And above that we can see the name of Ljubisa Borovcanin, do you

11     know what his position was at the time?

12        A.   I believe that he was the commander of their Special Brigade, the

13     Special Brigade of the MUP of the Republika Srpska.  I believe that that

14     was his position.

15        Q.   And what about Simo Drljaca?  Who was he?

16        A.   He was the chief of the security centre in Prijedor.

17             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] Witness, thank you very much for

18     your questions [as interpreted].  Your Honours, this is all I had to ask

19     this witness and I thank you for the time you gave me to do that.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

21             Could I seek clarification on one issue.  You refer to the

22     staffs.  If I read this document, then as far as the names are concerned

23     are these the names that are designated to those staffs on behalf of the

24     Ministry of the Interior and apparently the Ministry of the Interior of

25     the MUP of Republika Srpska?  It doesn't give the full composition of

Page 15245

 1     these joint staffs or is my understanding of the document wrong?  Perhaps

 2     I should ask the witness that this is just who?  Which persons on behalf

 3     of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republika Srpska will participate

 4     in such a joint staff, not the full composition of that staff; is that

 5     well understood?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I believe that these are only

 7     men from the Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska who were

 8     members of the joint staffs with the army.  This is the way I understand

 9     this document.  These are only the names of the representatives of the

10     staffs who joined from the MUP of the Republika Srpska.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So, Mr. Bakrac, I have difficulties in

12     understanding your question at page 5, line 3 and following.  You say

13     these are two staffs, reference is certainly made to two joint staffs,

14     and that the names there are the ones designated by the

15     RS Republika Srpska MUP, not anything else.  Is that -- so these are --

16             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, you are right.

17     However, I believe that you have just clarified everything with the

18     witness.  The witness answered your question.  These are representatives

19     of the staff that the deputy minister of the interior of the

20     Republika Srpska appointed on behalf of the Ministry of the Interior of

21     the Republika Srpska.  This document does not include the names of the

22     representatives of the Army of the Republika Srpska who also joined those

23     staffs.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And also not any other person?

25             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I agree.


Page 15246

 1     However, my intention and my thesis was that the Serbian volunteers and

 2     Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, placed themselves under the command of the

 3     Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska and that's why they were

 4     appointed as members of the staffs, and that was the essence of my

 5     question and that was the essence of the Defence case.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  That has been clarified.

 7             Mr. Weber, are you ready to cross-examine the witness.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Grekulovic, you will now be cross-examined by

10     Mr. Weber.  Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution.  You may begin,

11     Mr. Weber.

12             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:

14        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Grekulovic.  Before we begin today I just want

15     to inform you that the Prosecution in this case does not contest that

16     forces of the Serbian MUP were present in Bosnia-Herzegovina in September

17     and October 1995, and that these forces included PJP units from the MUP

18     of Serbia.  With that being said, I do have a number of items I'd like to

19     discuss with you.  I have prepared specific questions, most of which can

20     be answered with either a yes or a no.  If I would like some

21     clarifications of names, places, dates or events, I will ask you a more

22     broad question, and as you've seen the Chamber may do so as well.  Do you

23     understand?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   I would like to start with you today by asking some clarifying

Page 15247

 1     questions with respect to your statement.  In paragraph 6 you discuss a

 2     meeting between yourself, Obrad Stevanovic, and Radovan Stojicic, Badza.

 3     The Defence discussed the same paragraph with you yesterday.  The

 4     paragraph of your statement states:

 5             "In late August 1995, Colonel Obrad Stevanovic, at that time

 6     commander of all PJPs, and I were summoned for a meeting at

 7     Radovan Stojicic's, aka Badza."

 8             My question is where were you and Obrad Stevanovic coming from?

 9        A.   We were at work.  I was in my office and Obrad Stevanovic was

10     invited from Slavonia.

11        Q.   When you say you were at your work, where was that at that time

12     in late August 1995?

13        A.   That was in Kneza Milosa street at number 103 in Belgrade.

14        Q.   Since Obrad Stevanovic was coming from Slavonia, how many days

15     before the meeting did you learn that there would be such a meeting with

16     Badza?

17        A.   I learned on the day, perhaps half an hour before the meeting

18     itself.

19        Q.   In this paragraph you state that the meeting occurred at

20     Radovan Stojicic's.  What precise location are you referring to?

21        A.   His office, in the same building.

22        Q.   Is it correct then that you regularly worked in the same location

23     as Radovan Stojicic throughout 1995?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Was anyone else present for this meeting?

Page 15248

 1        A.   The two of us were invited and later on we were joined by

 2     Vlastimir Djordjevic, but as I say, he only joined us later.

 3        Q.   Was Mr. Djordjevic present for your conversation concerning the

 4     assignment of tasks to you and what you would be doing in Bosnia?

 5        A.   I'm not sure.

 6        Q.   What was the reason that he came to the meeting?

 7        A.   At the time he was the chief of the police administration.  He

 8     probably joined us because we were discussing the police.

 9        Q.   You describe Obrad Stevanovic as a colonel in your statement.  Is

10     it correct that military ranks were being used by the Serbian MUP in

11     1995?

12        A.   I believe so.  As a matter of fact, I'm not sure, maybe they did

13     have their own ranks.  However, I don't know whether they were called

14     colonels or chief police inspectors, I'm not sure.  Ranks were introduced

15     at some point in time but I don't know exactly when.  First they had

16     certain designations and then that was transformed into ranks, but I

17     don't know when that happened.

18        Q.   Well, when do you recall Obrad Stevanovic first becoming a

19     colonel?

20        A.   No, no, no, I did not hear that Obrad Stevanovic was Colonel.  I

21     believe that he was the chief police inspector.  That was a job title,

22     but at the level of colonel.  In the statement that was recorded like

23     that, the first rank that Obrad Stevanovic ever received was the rank of

24     general.

25        Q.   In paragraph 6 of your statement you also state:

Page 15249

 1             "At the meeting we were informed about the task."

 2             Yesterday you also discuss this at page 68 and 69 of the

 3     temporary transcript where you indicated that Badza told you that police

 4     officers from the Special Police Units needed to extend assistance to the

 5     MUP of Republika Srpska in policing works because they had a lot of

 6     refugees and a lot of security problems.  I'd like to ask you a little

 7     bit more detail about those security problems.

 8             Is it correct that Stojicic told you that Republika Srpska was

 9     facing problems and was being attacked by Muslim forces?

10        A.   No, he didn't tell me that.  He spoke about tasks that we would

11     be carrying out and that was to extend assistance to the MUP of

12     Republika Srpska.  He spoke about those tasks chiefly.

13        Q.   Well, did he also inform you that there were deserters, and the

14     VRS were deserting from the front lines?

15        A.   He did mention that but nothing specific was told us at that

16     time.  He only explained the situation to us and he told us that they

17     needed help, and that it was our task to help them with providing

18     security in terms of police tasks.

19        Q.   Is it correct that Badza told you that the Republika Srpska MUP

20     had insufficient forces to deal with the situation they were facing?

21        A.   He did not say that, not in so many words.  He only said that

22     they needed assistance, that they sought assistance.

23        Q.   At this meeting you learned that Obrad Stevanovic would not be

24     available because he was going back to Slavonia; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 15250

 1        Q.   You learned at the meeting that the co-ordination of Serbian MUP

 2     forces would go through Dragan Filipovic and the Serbian DB; correct?

 3        A.   Yes, and that he would provide any assistance we should need in

 4     the field.

 5        Q.   This might be an obvious question, but that was approved with the

 6     Serbian State Security Service; correct?

 7        A.   I wouldn't know about that level.  I really don't know who

 8     approved it.  I only received my tasks.

 9        Q.   Is it correct that the sending of Serbian MUP forces had been

10     agreed upon and authorised prior to the meeting?

11        A.   I don't know that either, but I believe so.  I don't think that

12     anybody did it on his own.

13        Q.   Was it your understanding that this authorisation was from

14     President Milosevic?

15        A.   I believe that it was.

16        Q.   Was it your understanding that Badza, himself, could not

17     undertake this action?

18        A.   Well, I don't think that he made that decision himself given the

19     level of decision-making.

20        Q.   Why do you believe that the authorisation came from

21     President Milosevic?

22        A.   No, I don't think it came from President Milosevic, but I suppose

23     that it came from the top ranks of government.  I really never was

24     involved in that level or rather at that level of decision-making.  I

25     only believed that the decision was made up there.

Page 15251

 1        Q.   Who was part of this top-level decision-making?

 2        A.   Talking about the State Security Service of the MUP, it was

 3     Radovan Stojicic, and then of course there was the minister on behalf of

 4     the ministry and the minister's name was Sokolovic.

 5        Q.   The transcript reflects you just saying the State Security

 6     Service of the MUP, it was Radovan Stojicic, should that read that

 7     talking about the public security service of the MUP it was

 8     Radovan Stojicic?

 9        A.   Yes, that is what it should read.  He was a chief of

10     public security, not chief of state security.

11        Q.   Radovan Stojicic and Minister Sokolovic would have had to get the

12     approval of other senior officials who were sending personnel to Bosnia;

13     correct?

14        A.   I believe that it was so but I repeat, I was not present at that

15     level so I don't know for sure, but I assume that it was because that's

16     the way it should have been.

17        Q.   These higher-level meetings occurred well before the meeting that

18     you had with Radovan Stojicic; correct?

19        A.   I don't know when the meetings were held.  I really don't.

20        Q.   Mr. Grekulovic, you are a senior MUP official.  The laws didn't

21     authorise members of the Serbian MUP to operate outside Serbia.  That was

22     a job for the federal MUP; correct?

23        A.   That is correct, but it was possible for the federal MUP to

24     request assistance from the MUP of the republic.  I don't know, however,

25     if they did in this case.

Page 15252

 1        Q.   I'd like to move on to a couple of other sections of your

 2     statement.  At the end of paragraph 7, you describe events that occur

 3     after the meeting with Badza in late August and state:

 4             "I too was supposed to go to Pristina, but I could not go because

 5     of other commitments."

 6             What were your other commitments at the end of August and the

 7     beginning of September 1995?

 8        A.   I said that Obrad and I were supposed to go to Pristina, but I

 9     had private commitments and in a couple of days a transfer was expected

10     so I made a request to be spared that time due to my private commitments

11     and Obrad to go instead of me.

12        Q.   How long were you occupied by these private commitments?  I'm not

13     asking you at this time to state what the private commitments are.

14        A.   It took me a day or two to take care of these private commitments

15     and we were sent off to execute our task in two or three days.

16        Q.   In paragraph 13 of your statement, you indicate that forces under

17     your command were:

18             "... were deployed in carrying out tasks in several towns in

19     Republika Srpska."  And you named the locations.  These locations were

20     Doboj, Teslic, Banja Luka, Prijedor, Sanski Most, and Mrkonjic Grad.

21     None of these municipalities are located on the Croatian-Bosnian border.

22     Is it correct that your PJP units were not deployed at the border because

23     this area was not a part of your assigned tasks?

24        A.   That is correct.

25        Q.   Yesterday at pages 81 and 82 there was some discussion about a DB

Page 15253

 1     operative who was assigned with you by the name of Dujovic.  On page 86

 2     of yesterday's transcript, you stated that Dujovic was with you all of

 3     the time.  Is it correct that a member of the State Security Service was

 4     assigned with you throughout your time in Bosnia?

 5        A.   Yes, he was with me as a liaison officer.  I stated that

 6     yesterday.  He was a liaison between me and Mr. Filipovic.  He was there

 7     throughout the time that I was there.

 8        Q.   What was Mr. Dujovic's first name?

 9        A.   To tell you the truth, I don't know, but they called him Duja and

10     his last name is Dujovic.

11        Q.   In the entire time that you were with him did he not convey to

12     you what his full name was?

13        A.   It's not that, but it's been 17 years.  I haven't seen the man

14     since and I really don't know all of his personal details.  I don't know

15     his first name.

16        Q.   What was Mr. Dujovic's official position in the Serbian DB?

17        A.   I don't know.

18        Q.   Did he not tell you that?

19        A.   He did not.  We never spoke about it, nor did I inquire about the

20     positions in state security.  I didn't care either.

21        Q.   What did Mr. Dujovic look like in 1995?

22        A.   He was young, shortish, thin.  His looks were decent.

23        Q.   Is there anything about him that you recall that is

24     distinguishing?  His hair colour?  Anything?

25        A.   His hair colour, I think he had brown hair.  Actually, I don't

Page 15254

 1     think, I'm sure.  He had a receding hairline and I don't know what else.

 2        Q.   It was your understanding that he was a subordinate of

 3     Mr. Filipovic; correct?

 4        A.   I understood that he was his co-worker and probably a

 5     subordinate.  He was the person with whom -- through whom I liaised with

 6     Mr. Filipovic.

 7        Q.   Well, what did Mr. Dujovic call Mr. Filipovic?

 8        A.   He called him Fica.

 9        Q.   In paragraph 18 of your statement, you state:

10             "Dragan Filipovic from the Republic of Serbia state security was

11     also present in Banja Luka."

12             And later in the paragraph you continue:

13             "On behalf of the MUP of Serbia, his role was to co-ordinate

14     activities of the forces of the MUP of Serbia.  I did not have any

15     particular contacts with him except when I needed some assistance or

16     consultation regarding the use of forces under my command and the tasks

17     that they performed."

18             When you say Filipovic's role was to co-ordinate the activities

19     of the forces of the MUP of Serbia, is it correct that he co-ordinated

20     these activities with the Republika Srpska MUP?

21        A.   I think that he was in permanent contact with the minister in the

22     Republika Srpska.  And talking about this co-ordination, I was told to

23     contact him only if I needed something and possibly when I had to clarify

24     anything that had to do with the use of our units.

25        Q.   Do I understand your evidence correctly then that

Page 15255

 1     Dragan Filipovic was a part of higher-level communications with the

 2     senior staff of the Republika Srpska MUP?

 3        A.   I don't know about that aspect, but I know that he had contacts

 4     with senior officers from the MUP of Serbia and probably also with those

 5     in Republika Srpska.

 6        Q.   It's correct that he was co-ordinating these activities with

 7     Tomo Kovac and Brane Pecanac; correct?

 8        A.   Well, probably.

 9        Q.   You've also describe the PJP units being at different locations

10     in Bosnia.  Is it correct that Filipovic also co-ordinated the activities

11     of these units at these different locations?

12        A.   If you are referring to the units of the MUP of the

13     Republic of Serbia [Realtime transcript read in error

14     "Republika Srpska"], it all went through me.  Nobody issued orders to the

15     commanders of these units.  It all had to go through me.

16             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac.

18             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, in line 13 of the

19     current transcript page there has been a mistake.  I kindly ask the

20     witness to repeat his answer.  I don't want to suggest what it should be.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I will read to the witness what he is reported to

22     have said and then we'll hear from him whether it's incorrect or not.

23     Should I start at page 16, line 12, Mr. Bakrac?  Would that do?

24             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I read to you, Mr. Grekulovic, how your words were

Page 15256

 1     translated to us.  If there's anything wrong, please tell me.  The

 2     question that was put to you was whether it was correct that Filipovic

 3     also co-ordinated the activities of the units referred to at these

 4     different locations.  Your answer was, and please listen carefully:

 5             "If you are referring to the units of the MUP of the

 6     Republika Srpska, it all went through me.  Nobody issued orders to the

 7     commanders of these units.  It all had to go through me."

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there's been a

 9     mistake.  It's the units of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia, rather

10     than of the Republika Srpska.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is hereby corrected.

12             Mr. Weber, you may proceed.

13             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   On page 86 of yesterday's transcript, you stated that Filipovic:

15             "Mostly made sure that the units carried out their tasks for

16     which they were deployed in the first place.  He also made sure that all

17     the tasks were being carried out in a professional manner."

18             Is it correct that Filipovic was aware of the tasks you received

19     from Badza back in August 1995?

20        A.   He probably was aware but he also got that information from me

21     but he also got it from the MUP senior officers.

22        Q.   Had you ever met or known either Dragan Filipovic or Mr. Dujovic

23     prior to your deployment to Bosnia in 1995?

24        A.   No, both Dragan Filipovic and Dujovic are people I met in

25     Banja Luka.

Page 15257

 1             MR. WEBER:  At this time could the Prosecution please have

 2     Exhibit P2941 shown to the witness.

 3        Q.   Sir, this is a request from Tomo Kovac dated 26 September 1995

 4     that you comment upon in paragraph 19 of your statement.  This request

 5     states:

 6             "I propose to schedule a meeting between the RS deputy minister

 7     of the interior, Tomislav Kovac, the co-ordinator of the forces of the

 8     Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia, Dragan Filipovic, and

 9     you to resolve certain problems with regard to the commanding of troops

10     currently under the RS MUP."

11             Were you aware of any problems related to the commanding of

12     troops between the Republika Srpska authorities and Dragan Filipovic?

13        A.   No, I wasn't.

14        Q.   This request is sent to Ratko Mladic personally.  Is it correct

15     that the VRS was kept informed of the activities of the Republika Srpska

16     MUP and the Serbian MUP forces?

17        A.   Well, I don't know, but I believe so since I've seen this letter

18     now.

19        Q.   Is it correct that the Republika Srpska MUP forces and your PJP

20     units from Serbia both wore similar blue uniforms?

21        A.   Yes.  There was a difference in the camouflage pattern.  Ours

22     were more grey and theirs were more blue.  I know that there was a slight

23     difference between them.

24        Q.   Thank you for clarifying that.  With respect to the patches, they

25     also both had the tri-colour flag on them with some also slight

Page 15258

 1     differences; correct?

 2        A.   Yes, there were differences.  We had a PJP emblem with the

 3     tri-colour flag, I think, and they had also the tri-colour flag but with

 4     a cross.  I don't really remember the details, but there was a

 5     difference.

 6        Q.   In paragraph 20 of your statement you claim:

 7             "During my stay in Republika Srpska, I did not see or encounter

 8     Franko Simatovic anywhere."

 9             How did you know who Mr. Simatovic was in 1995, had you ever seen

10     him before or had you ever heard of him prior to your deployment?

11        A.   I did see him in the MUP in Belgrade on a couple of occasions and

12     I knew what he looked like, didn't know the man personally.  But if I had

13     met him, I would have recognised him.

14        Q.   Were you aware that Dragan Filipovic was a subordinate of

15     Mr. Simatovic in the 2nd Administration of the Serbian DB?

16        A.   No, I didn't, or I wasn't aware.

17        Q.   In paragraph 25 of your statement you claim:

18             "During my stay in the territory of Republika Srpska I did not

19     come across any members of the unit for anti-terrorist operations, JATD,

20     or the Red Berets."

21             How did you know he about the JATD or Red Berets in 1995?

22        A.   To be honest, I never met any of these units there, nor was I in

23     contact with them but I heard that there were different special units and

24     especially when I saw a document shown to me by the Defence, it was new

25     to me that the unit commanded by Arkan was a special unit of the

Page 15259

 1     republic --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the end of his

 3     answer.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the last part of your

 5     answer.  You said it was new to you that the unit commanded by Arkan, and

 6     would you then please repeat what you then said.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know that it was a special

 8     unit of the MUP of the Republika Srpska.

 9             MR. WEBER:

10        Q.   Is it correct then that before being shown documents by the

11     Defence, that you were not aware of Arkan being a part of a special unit

12     of the Republika Srpska MUP?

13        A.   It is correct, I didn't know that.

14        Q.   I'd like to go back to my question about the JATD and the

15     Red Berets.  My question specifically was whether or not -- well, how you

16     knew them in 1995, so what prior knowledge did you have before your

17     deployment about the JATD or the Red Berets?

18        A.   I had no knowledge whatsoever.  I really didn't.

19        Q.   Is it your evidence that you did not see any individuals wearing

20     red berets during your stay in Republika Srpska?

21        A.   That isn't what I wanted to say.  That red beret was a -- was

22     something very popular, many units wore it, but I don't know which units

23     were out there.  I want to say that I didn't have direct contact with any

24     such unit but I saw many people sporting red berets.

25             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 594.2.  This

Page 15260

 1     is a video still from Exhibit P281 which is a video-clip.  The still is

 2     taken from the 45 second marker of the video.  Is there a video still

 3     before the witness?  I do not see it on my monitor.  It is

 4     65 ter 00594.2.  I apologise, Your Honours, I believe that we have to

 5     release it.  We will do that one second and I'll come back to it.  My

 6     apologies.  My apologies to Madam Registrar.

 7        Q.   If you did not know about the JATD or the Red Berets, how do you

 8     know that you did not see them there in 1995?

 9        A.   No, I'm not saying that.  I said that I saw many out there

10     sporting red berets but I don't know to which units they belonged because

11     there were many people with red berets, so I don't know if the unit was

12     there or wasn't.

13             MR. WEBER:  Okay.  If we could please try this again.  Could the

14     Prosecution please have 65 ter 594.2 shown to the witness.

15        Q.   Sir, do you recognise the individual wearing the red beret in

16     this video still?

17        A.   Yes, this is Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan.

18        Q.   This video was taken of Arkan while he was near Kljuc in

19     Western Bosnia on the 29th of September, 1995.  Is it this what you saw

20     Arkan and his men wearing in September and October of 1995?

21        A.   Yes, they wore this type of uniforms and they also sported

22     berets.

23        Q.   Arkan is not wearing the uniform of the Republika Srpska MUP;

24     correct?

25        A.   That's correct, this is a camouflage uniform.  Many volunteer

Page 15261

 1     units that didn't belong to anybody wore such uniforms.  You could

 2     purchase a uniform of this kind practically anywhere.

 3        Q.   On how many occasions did you see Arkan between September and

 4     October 1995?

 5        A.   Well, I don't know.  I suppose I saw him four or five times, not

 6     more than that.  I don't know exactly, but I didn't see him many times.

 7     I saw him in passing if I did.  I didn't really talk to him or anything.

 8        Q.   Where did you see Arkan on these occasions?

 9        A.   I had two or three occasions to see him at Pecanac's.  I saw him

10     once in Prijedor in the office of the chief of the centre when I toured

11     my unit.  The chief of the centre whose name was on the list, I can't

12     remember his name, and perhaps another time in Banja Luka.  In any case,

13     we did not have any particular contact, as it were, at any of those

14     times.  I just saw him, we didn't talk.  We didn't engage in any

15     meaningful conversations.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, could we inquire as to the person in the

17     background of this video still.

18             MR. WEBER:  Of course, Your Honour.

19        Q.   Mr. Grekulovic, directing your attention back to the image that's

20     before you, there's an individual who is standing as we are facing the

21     image to the right of Arkan; do you recognise the uniform or who this

22     individual is in this photo?

23        A.   No, I don't recognise the individual and I can't say that I

24     recognise the uniform either.  The image is not that clear.

25             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time would tender the video

Page 15262

 1     still that's before the Chamber, 65 ter 594.2.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections or are there?

 3             MR. JORDASH:  No.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  The number for video still 594.2 will be P3048,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed.

 8             MR. WEBER:

 9        Q.   You describe that you saw Arkan on a number of occasions and that

10     certain individuals were also present during some of these occasions, you

11     mentioned Brane Pecanac and also the chief of the RS MUP centre that you

12     mentioned earlier.  Were any of these occasions meetings?

13        A.   No, I did not attend any meetings that were also attended by

14     Arkan.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, could I go back to two of the answers the

16     witness gave.

17             Mr. Grekulovic, you were asked about seeing people with red

18     berets and you said when asked that you didn't see JATD or Red Berets and

19     how you knew that you didn't see them, then you corrected the

20     understanding of Mr. Weber and you said, no, that's not what I'm saying,

21     I said I saw many out there sporting red berets, but I don't know to

22     which units they belonged because there were many people with red berets,

23     so I don't know if the unit was there or wasn't.

24             Now, a few moments after that you were asked about Arkan and his

25     men, what they were wearing in September and October of 1995.  You said,

Page 15263

 1     yes, they wore these type of uniforms and they also sported red berets,

 2     which means that the full answer to the previous question was that you

 3     saw many people with red berets and that you were unable to know what

 4     units they belonged to but that you knew that Arkan and his men, that

 5     they were wearing red berets, isn't it?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I saw Arkan and his men

 7     sporting red berets, but I saw other men sporting red berets as well

 8     without knowing which units they belonged to.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  So your previous answer was not the whole truth

10     because what you are now telling us is that you saw people with red

11     berets and that you were often unable to know what units they belonged to

12     but that you do know that Arkan and his men were wearing red berets.

13     That would have been the full answer, isn't it?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  May I invite you to give the full answers next time.

16             Mr. Weber, please proceed.

17             MR. WEBER:

18        Q.   Was Arkan accompanied by his men on each of the occasions that

19     you saw him?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Do you know the names or nicknames of any of Arkan's Men who were

22     with him?

23        A.   I don't know.  They were his escorts.  He was also -- he was

24     always accompanied by five or six men.

25        Q.   I would like to ask you a number of questions related to your

Page 15264

 1     opinion concerning Arkan and his relationship to the Republika Srpska

 2     MUP.  In paragraph 10 of your statement you indicate that the Serbian MUP

 3     PJP units performed their tasks together with members of the

 4     Republika Srpska MUP.  In paragraph 23 of your statement you state:

 5             "To the best of my knowledge Arkan had nothing to do with the

 6     forces of the MUP of Serbia present in Republika Srpska.  Likewise, I

 7     know that Arkan and his forces did not carry out any tasks together or in

 8     co-operation with the MUP of Serbia."

 9             In paragraph 24 of your statement you then state:

10             "From what I know, Arkan was a unit of the Republika Srpska MUP

11     subordinated to the Republika Srpska MUP.  It is possible that in combat

12     operations he was subordinated to the army too but I have no actual

13     information about it.  Personally, I had no contacts with him, but I did

14     see him a few times accompanied by men whom I think were members of his

15     forces.  I do not know where from Arkan came there to the field, nor do I

16     know who sent them or how many of his men his unit was made."

17             A moment ago you explained to us that the basis of your belief

18     that Arkan was a member of the RS MUP was based on documents shown to you

19     by the Defence.  In light of your testimony and your claims that the

20     Serbian MUP PJP units were carrying out tasks with the Republika Srpska

21     MUP and Arkan's Men were part of the Republika Srpska MUP, is your

22     statement that Arkan had nothing to do with the Serbian MUP forces in

23     Bosnia incorrect?

24        A.   I wouldn't put it that way.  If the document is correct and if he

25     belonged to the MUP of Republika Srpska, I am saying that Serbian police

Page 15265

 1     units were engaged in policing together with the regular police officers

 2     of the Republika Srpska and not with the units that were under Arkan's

 3     command.  If we are looking at things that way, I was right when I said

 4     that the MUP of Serbia had absolutely nothing to do with the unit under

 5     Arkan's command.

 6        Q.   Let me know if I distill this correctly.  Republika Srpska MUP

 7     units were working together with Serbian MUP units.  Arkan also was

 8     working with Republika Srpska MUP units.  Because both the Serbian MUP

 9     units and Arkan's units were working with the Republika Srpska MUP, isn't

10     it correct that there was co-ordination or involvement or some

11     relationship between your forces?

12             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, that's -- I'm going to object.  There's a

13     rather compound question.  Co-ordination, involvement, or some

14     relationship, those three descriptions can describe quite disparate

15     things.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you willing to rephrase, Mr. Weber.

17             MR. WEBER:  I'm just asking what the relationship is.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  My question was whether you are willing to rephrase.

19             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, if the witness doesn't understand the

20     question, I'm happy to rephrase.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So the answer is yes, although we do not know

22     whether the witness understands the question or not, it was an objection

23     by Mr. Jordash.  Please rephrase the question.

24             MR. WEBER:

25        Q.   You've described that it is your belief that the Republika Srpska

Page 15266

 1     MUP units worked together with the Serbian MUP units and also Arkan's

 2     units worked with the Republika Srpska MUP.  Is it correct that there was

 3     some relationship between all three of these units, and if so, what was

 4     it?

 5        A.   I know that the relationship and co-operation between the MUP of

 6     Serbia police units and the regular police of the Republika Srpska MUP

 7     existed in performing regular policing tasks.  As for Arkan's unit, it

 8     did not share any joint tasks with the MUP of the Republic of Serbia.

 9     That's why I am adamant when I say that we did not co-operate with

10     Arkan's units.

11        Q.   In paragraph 10 of your statement, you describe --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, is this a follow-up on your last

13     question?

14             MR. WEBER:  I was going to follow up later with it, but if Your

15     Honours --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I leave it to you for a later moment.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry to interrupt, Mr. Weber.  Could we take a

18     break, please.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and we resume at quarter to 11.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, please proceed.

23             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24        Q.   Mr. Grekulovic, is it your evidence that PJP units of the Serbian

25     MUP were not involved in combat or offensive operations during your

Page 15267

 1     deployment in 1995?  Do I understand that is what you are claiming in

 2     court here today?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   In paragraph 14 of your statement you refer to a SAJ unit of

 5     about 20 to 25 men.  Were the tasks of this SAJ unit the same as yours

 6     and did they sustain any casualties during their deployment to Bosnia?

 7        A.   Yes, their task was the same, to help our units if needed and

 8     there were no casualties.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P2948.  It

10     is a public exhibit.

11        Q.   Mr. Grekulovic, what is going to be shown to you in a second is

12     an RS MUP, Republika Srpska MUP dispatch dated 29 September 1995.  This

13     document is not one of the dispatches that you comment upon in your

14     statement.  Could you please read this document.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, could we first seek clarification.

16             The Kosovo SAJ special anti-terrorist unit, was that a unit in

17     any way related to Republic of Serbia?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  That was a unit of the

19     Serbian MUP.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The statement is not perfectly clear on that,

21     but thank you for clarifying.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

23             MR. WEBER:

24        Q.   Mr. Grekulovic, could you please read the dispatch that's before

25     you.

Page 15268

 1             MR. WEBER:  Is it possible to also have the translation up.

 2        Q.   Sir, this dispatch states a number of things.  Included in the

 3     dispatch are the following quotes:

 4             "Lines were consolidated and heavy losses were inflicted on the

 5     enemy."

 6             And:

 7             "We have obtained information from enemy soldiers."

 8             And:

 9             "The adjacent units to the right made an advance yesterday."

10             This dispatch then concludes with the quotation:

11             "The police forces comprise of the 4th and 8th SOP, four PJP

12     companies, and a Tigrovi Battalion with their respective fire support

13     equipment.  The plan for today is to go on the offensive."

14             Much like the other documents that you comment upon in your

15     statement, is it correct that your understanding to your reference to the

16     Tigrovi Battalion is a reference to Arkan's Men?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Sir, is it correct that your units were in fact involved in joint

19     combat operations, including offensive operations with both the

20     Republika Srpska MUP and Arkan's Tigers, now that you've been able to see

21     this dispatch?

22        A.   No.  If you are referring to PJP units, they were PJP units of

23     the MUP of Republika Srpska that participated in combat.  What I'm saying

24     is that the Republika Srpska MUP also had its own PJP units.

25        Q.   You were shown a number of dispatches in -- by the Defence in

Page 15269

 1     your statement.  These dispatches just refer to PJP units.  How were you

 2     able to distinguish between what PJP units belong to the

 3     Republic of Serbia?  And this is the first time we are hearing of PJP

 4     units belonging to Republika Srpska, so if you could please clarify that.

 5        A.   Let me explain, the Republika Srpska MUP had PJP units that it

 6     engaged in combat and on the front line, together with the Army of the

 7     Republika Srpska and the other forces of the Republika Srpska MUP.

 8     Whereas the PJP from Serbia, from the Republic of Serbia MUP exclusively

 9     performed tasks of policing in urban areas together with the regular

10     police units.  Obviously we were called in because they had engaged their

11     units in combat.  What I'm saying is that those were not our own PJP

12     units.

13             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 6319.  This

14     can be broadcast to the public.

15        Q.   Mr. Grekulovic, this is a situation report from the CJB Doboj

16     dated 10 October 1995.  Toward the end of this report it states:

17             "On 10th October, 1995, around 0500 hours, a fire broke out in

18     Petrovo on the vehicles belonging to the in members of the Special Forces

19     of the Republic of Serbia.  One member of the Special Forces of the RS

20     died in the fire.  You will be informed in the next report.  Defence

21     lines of the PJP and 5th Detachment of the SPB are stable.  There were no

22     killed or wounded members of the PJP and 5th Detachment of the SPB."

23             Were you aware of this incident which occurred near Doboj?

24        A.   No, I was not aware of it and I claim with full responsibility

25     that I did not have any casualties.  Nobody was injured, nobody was

Page 15270

 1     killed, no vehicle was damaged, no single piece of equipment that the

 2     unit had brought from Serbia was damaged.  I claim this with full

 3     responsibility.

 4        Q.   Well, this situation report indicates that a vehicle from the

 5     Republic of Serbia was damaged.  Is it your evidence then if you did not

 6     know of this incident that this vehicle did not belong to your forces,

 7     but could have belonged to another force of the Republic of Serbia MUP?

 8        A.   The vehicle did not belong to us, I'm sure of that.  I really

 9     don't know whether it belonged to any other formal structure.

10        Q.   Is it correct that the SPB is a special battalion of the

11     Republika Srpska MUP?

12        A.   Probably.  I'm really not familiar with the abbreviation, but,

13     yes, probably.

14        Q.   In paragraph 10 of your statement --

15             MR. WEBER:  I am sorry, Your Honours, before doing that, the

16     Prosecution would tender this as a public exhibit.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  Madam Registrar.  Before, I did not

18     hear of any objections.

19             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, I was just distracted momentarily.

20             No objections.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 6319 will become P3049, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And admitted into evidence.  Please proceed.

23             MR. WEBER:

24        Q.   In paragraph 10 of your statement you indicate that the

25     responsibilities of PJP units included controlling the check-points and

Page 15271

 1     bringing in deserters from the VRS and MUP.  Is it correct that you were

 2     referring to deserters from the Republika Srpska MUP in your statement?

 3        A.   I meant all deserters from the armed forces of Republika Srpska.

 4        Q.   For clarity, does that include the VRS and Republika Srpska MUP?

 5        A.   To be honest, I don't know that anybody was brought in from the

 6     MUP of Republika Srpska, any deserters, I suppose that they dealt with

 7     that themselves.  I know that we -- people who were brought in were

 8     conscripts and deserters who failed to respond to mobilisation calls with

 9     the military police and the MUP of Republika Srpska.

10        Q.   Is it correct that Arkan's Men were present at the check-points

11     and also brought in deserters from the VRS?

12        A.   That is correct.  However, those were early days when we first

13     arrived, they did that.  And after that an order was issued that that

14     task should be taken over with the regular forces of the police of the

15     Republika Srpska, with the military police with our assistance.

16     Arkan's Men were no longer allowed to do that.

17        Q.   I would just like to understand the timing of that.  Is it your

18     evidence then that Arkan's Men were present at the check-points in

19     September 1995 when you first arrived?

20        A.   When we first arrived they did that for a few days, a couple of

21     days.

22        Q.   Is it your evidence then that Arkan's Men did not continue to

23     operate the check-points into October 1995?

24        A.   I don't have that information for October.  I know that when they

25     did that there were problems in the area of Prijedor and those problems

Page 15272

 1     involved Arkan's Men and some military units.  A problem was created and

 2     after that they were no longer allowed to do that.  It was us who did

 3     that so I don't have that information for the month of October.

 4        Q.   Did your --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I seek clarification there.

 6             You say they were not allowed to do it.  You earlier said they

 7     were, I think they were ordered -- an order was issued that the task

 8     should be taken over with the regular forces of the police of the

 9     Republika Srpska and military police with your assistance.  Now, you say

10     I have no information about October but what you say upon our arrival

11     they were there and then they were ordered to stop to do that.  Now, did

12     they stop doing it?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They stopped working at

14     check-points and I know that they no longer did that.  I can say that

15     things were sporadic or something like that.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the answer is a bit unclear.  I asked you

17     whether they stopped, you said they stopped working at check-points and I

18     know that they no longer did that.  So you have the information for

19     October, they were not there anymore at the check-points.  Then you

20     continue your answer by saying, "I can say that things were sporadic or

21     something like that," which is a rather vague expression.  Do you allow

22     for the possibility that they still, sporadic or not, have been at

23     check-points during the month of October, or are you certain that they

24     were not anymore at any check-point?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sure that they were not at our

Page 15273

 1     check-points.  Whether they had their own check-point unbeknownst to me,

 2     it's possible, I can concede to that.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Your previous answer they stopped working at

 4     check-points and I know that they no longer did that, you intend to say

 5     they were no longer at check-points where we were and I know that they

 6     did not perform any tasks at the check-points we were involved in; is

 7     that how I have to understand your testimony?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

10             But no, I have one further question on a matter.  You were asked

11     about bringing in deserters.  If I read your statement where you describe

12     the tasks, and I start halfway, general crime prevention, persons,

13     vehicles, and goods check, prevention of smuggling as well as preventing

14     regular forces, and then between brackets, Republika Srpska army and MUP

15     from deserting, it's being -- bringing in the deserters.  Now, you said I

16     do not know exactly, we never brought in any MUP deserters, but you

17     clearly describe the MUP as part of the regular forces and your task of

18     preventing members of the regular forces from deserting.  Now, whether

19     you ever found one, was it your task to do so, as you describe it here?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  We were instructed to bring

21     in each and every deserter.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Including if they were MUP members, the MUP members

23     being part of the regular forces?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, including all members who

25     deserted from their units.

Page 15274

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Including MUP members, that was what my focus was

 2     on?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 6281.  This

 6     can be broadcast to the public.

 7        Q.   Mr. Grekulovic, before you is an RS MUP, Republika Srpska MUP

 8     dispatch from Prijedor CJB in October 1995.  It indicates that members of

 9     the Republika Srpska MUP brought in about 800 VRS members who had

10     deserted from the front and the operation was carried out with Arkan's

11     volunteer guard.  Is it correct that Arkan's Men were, in fact, carrying

12     out the tasks of bringing in deserters from the check-points into October

13     1995 while your units, the PJP units, were also assigned to Prijedor?

14        A.   No, these are not PJP units from Serbia.  This incident, as I've

15     already told you, happened in Prijedor.  Arkan's unit together with a

16     military unit -- actually, they clashed, the two units clashed.  They

17     were brought in, their heads were shaved, and that created a problem.

18     The document that was shown to me by the Defence which was Mr. Mladic's

19     letter was a letter of complaint about that incident, so the incident did

20     not happen at a check-point.  What this was all about was the bringing in

21     of an entire unit.

22        Q.   Is it correct that you were aware of Arkan's Men doing this while

23     you were in Bosnia?

24        A.   I was aware of that particular incident.  I heard of it.

25        Q.   Your Serbian MUP PJP units never sought to arrest Arkan while

Page 15275

 1     they were deployed in Bosnia; correct?

 2        A.   No, that was not within our purview and not only that, we were

 3     not able to do that in the situation as it was.

 4             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 6281 as a

 5     public exhibit.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.  Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 6281 will receive number P3050,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  P3050 is admitted into evidence.

10             MR. WEBER:

11        Q.   Sir, since you claim, "I do not know where from Arkan came to the

12     field," I have a number of questions to you about your knowledge of Arkan

13     prior to your deployment in 1995.  First, are you aware that Arkan had

14     multiple convictions for crimes committed in Serbia which date back to

15     when he was a juvenile in 1966 and continuing through 1986?

16             MR. WEBER:  For Chamber, cross-references can be found in

17     Exhibit P1646.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I know that.  Every

19     police officer in Serbia knows that.

20             MR. WEBER:

21        Q.   So is it correct that you were aware that Arkan had a

22     long-running criminal history in the Republic of Serbia before 1995?

23        A.   Yes, I was aware.

24        Q.   Is it correct that Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, was elected as a

25     deputy to the Serbian parliament in December of 1992?

Page 15276

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Is it correct that he was elected from the 9th District in

 3     Pristina from the province of Kosevo?

 4        A.   Frankly speaking, I don't know that.  I know that he was elected

 5     deputy, but I don't know that it was that district.

 6        Q.   Did you know that he was elected from the province of Kosovo?

 7        A.   I told you, I know that he was elected, but I don't know in which

 8     constituency.

 9        Q.   Is it correct that the Serbian MUP provided security to members

10     of the Serbian parliament?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   This would have included uniformed officers from public security

13     and also plain-clothes officers from the Serbian DB; correct?

14        A.   Well, the parliament is secured by public security, both within

15     and on the outside.  Inside parliament they are in plain clothes, whereas

16     outside they wear uniforms.

17        Q.   And State Security Service also had responsibilities with respect

18     to providing --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, your first question was about members of

20     the Serbian parliament and the answer was about the parliament.  Security

21     provided to members of parliament outside the parliamentary building.

22     Was that provided?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  No.  Members of parliament

24     don't -- are not provided security except in situations when it's

25     estimated that their personal safety is in jeopardy.  In other words,

Page 15277

 1     when the State Security Service makes such an assessment, then the

 2     minister decides whether protection is provided for them or not.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And if such protection is provided, is it by

 4     uniformed or by plain-clothed officials?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By plain clothes officials.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.  At this time I would ask

 8     Mr. Laugel to please show 65 ter 6314.  This is a video excerpt from

 9     ERN V000-3213, time-code 2 hours, 2 minutes, 57 seconds to 2 hours, 4

10     minutes, 31 seconds.  The total duration is approximately 1 minute and 34

11     second clip.  The transcript of this video-clip has been provided to the

12     booths as clip 1.

13             Sir, if you could please watch this video.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "This is how Serbs salute.  The

16     Americans have their American dream, the French have theirs, the Italians

17     theirs and we Serbs also have the right to dream.  I and you too probably

18     have my own Serbian dream about the United States of Serbia.  You saw

19     that Germany reunited, although it caused the greatest evil to the entire

20     world, especially to us Serbs, I don't need to point that out.  They

21     reunited and nobody had anything against it.  Why are they then opposing

22     our unification into one state?  Because we are one people, we celebrate

23     the same holidays, we speak the same language, and we have the right to

24     create the United Serbian states.  The United States of Serbia."

25             MR. WEBER:

Page 15278

 1        Q.   Sir --

 2             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not rising to

 3     object.  I would just ask Mr. Weber to provide us with a time reference

 4     as to when this speech was made and where before he asks his following

 5     question.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, if you are in a position to meet the

 7     request of Mr. Bakrac, you are invited to do so.  If you would rather

 8     leave it to a later moment in time, in view of your line of questioning,

 9     you are allowed to do so as well.

10             MR. WEBER:  I was going to do so as part of my next question.

11        Q.   Sir, you just viewed an excerpt from a speech Arkan gave on the

12     13th of December 1992 before the Serbian Assembly, did you recognise the

13     logo of Radio Television Serbia from Belgrade in the upper right-hand

14     corner of this broadcast?

15        A.   Well, the quality of the video-clip was poor and I couldn't tell

16     whether it was the RTS Logo.  If it was the RTS Logo, then it may have

17     been broadcast on RTS but I couldn't tell by watching this video-clip.

18        Q.   Do you need to see it again?  I can show it to you if you want to

19     look at it?

20             MR. WEBER:  If we could please just have the first couple of

21     seconds of the video played.  And sir, I'd ask Mr. Laugel to just pause

22     it a couple of seconds into the video.

23             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise,

24     Your Honours, but since Mr. Weber is asserting that this took place in

25     the Serbian Assembly, I kindly ask the witness to --

Page 15279

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber has put something to the witness.  If

 2     there's any reason to challenge that, I think we are in cross-examination

 3     at this moment, you have an opportunity to do so.  Let's first follow the

 4     questions of Mr. Weber.

 5             Mr. Weber, the short clip and then to be stopped.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Yes.  If we could please replay the initial portion

 7     of 65 ter 6314.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MR. WEBER:

10        Q.   Sir, we are paused at 5 and a half seconds into the video-clip.

11     Directing your attention to the upper right-hand corner, do you recognise

12     that as the logo of the Radio Television Serbia from Belgrade?

13        A.   Yes, I think this is it.

14        Q.   To the best of your knowledge, were public speeches from Arkan

15     before the Serbian Assembly considered extremist or viewed as a threat to

16     the security of the republic by the Serbian MUP?

17        A.   Well, at the time there were several speeches of this kind so

18     that it would more likely be considered extremist.

19        Q.   Is it correct that the Serbian MUP took no actions against Arkan

20     in relation to these speeches?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time tenders the video-clip

23     under 65 ter 6314.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. JORDASH:  Objection.  Sorry, Your Honour.

Page 15280

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No, objection, but I haven't heard the grounds.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Well, the objection is that this is new evidence.

 3     There's no proper basis, in our submission, for putting it to this

 4     witness other than to add to the Prosecution case.  This didn't elicit

 5     any evidence which couldn't have been elicited by the asking of questions

 6     about Arkan's speeches.  Secondly, it's very unclear what the probative

 7     value of this is supposed to be.  Is the Prosecution saying this speech

 8     took place in front of the Serbian Assembly?  That's been left somewhat

 9     vague.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do agree that it has been put to the witness

11     but there's no clear answer of the witness about location and time.

12     That's for certain, and Mr. Weber has apparently refrained from asking

13     specific questions on that.

14             MR. JORDASH:  But, secondly -- I am sorry, thirdly, what is it

15     the Prosecution are suggesting was the action that the Serbian MUP should

16     have taken?  Are they suggesting that this speech breached a particular

17     law and if so what were the Serbian MUP's powers in terms of taking

18     action?  Are we just left with what is effectively allegations which go

19     nowhere, just allegations that Arkan is a bad man and you didn't take any

20     action?  We need more specificity in our submission.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, could you please respond to what

22     Mr. Jordash just raised and could you also keep in mind that the issue of

23     the fresh evidence was dealt with very much in the context of the need

24     to -- for the Prosecution to select witnesses and that if a witness is

25     called by the Defence and has specific knowledge -- if there's anything

Page 15281

 1     to be asked from that witness on his own situation, his own

 2     documentation, et cetera, that the Chamber has allowed that, but where is

 3     the specific knowledge of this witness now called by the Defence?  So

 4     could you please keep that in mind as well when answering the

 5     objections -- when responding to the objections raised by Mr. Jordash.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour.  First, the Defence has called a

 7     witness that claims a lack of knowledge about where Arkan came from.

 8     This brings into question what the nexus is between Zeljko Raznjatovic

 9     and the Republic of Serbia.  Because he is claiming a lack of knowledge,

10     the Prosecution of course, has multiple ways that it could attempt to

11     confront or cross-examine the witness relating to what was known.  One of

12     the best vehicles for doing that is using what were public broadcasts and

13     publicly known information available to the Prosecution.  That is why we

14     have selected a public broadcast on Serbian TV to confront the witness

15     about.  The witness has, second, identified that he did have personal

16     knowledge of Arkan being a member of the Serbian parliament from

17     December 1992 onward.  So the Prosecution has established knowledge of

18     the witness that Zeljko Raznjatovic was a member of the Serbian

19     parliament.  Based on that, I do have further questions about his

20     relationship to the Republic of Serbia.  I will eventually revisit his

21     opinion concerning his lack of knowledge about where from Arkan came.

22     Third, the Prosecution put to this witness very specific questions about

23     how the speech or how speeches were viewed, whether they were extremist

24     or not.  The reason for is this triggered by the Defence case.  The

25     Defence has asserted Operation Thomson, an operation that was conducted

Page 15282

 1     by both the public security and State Security Service of the Republic of

 2     Serbia.  This does not originate from the Prosecution's case.  As part of

 3     this contest for Operation Thomson, I now have official, a rather senior

 4     official, from the public security service of the Serbian MUP.  I'm

 5     putting to him questions that both relate to confronting the witness with

 6     his own personal knowledge as to where Arkan came from and, two, what the

 7     Serbian MUP did in relation to the public comments and views that were

 8     expressed by Zeljko Raznjatovic at the time, which he said is nothing

 9     which bears directly on the defence that was raised by the Stanisic

10     Defence.

11             Lastly, the Prosecution would note that the Simatovic Defence is

12     going to be bringing a witness here in a few weeks that was a member of

13     the Serbian National Assembly and also is going to be testifying in

14     relation to these matters.  This is not something that the Prosecution

15     could have known prior to receiving the exhibit lists.  So these are the

16     reasons that such a video like this is triggered at this time.  I believe

17     the Prosecution has a good-faith basis in light of the Chamber's guidance

18     and we ask that it be admitted.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

20             MR. JORDASH:  I'm not sure I follow much of that but what I would

21     submit is that the witness puts forward in his statement that he did not

22     know in the context of 1995 where from Arkan came there to the field nor

23     did he know who sent him or how many men his unit was made.  And then my

24     learned friend puts a speech from 1992, allegedly, suggesting that in

25     some way there's a nexus between those two things.  It's not -- it's

Page 15283

 1     absurd in our respectful submission.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Two lines, Mr. Weber.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, this is a part of a series of

 4     cross-examination, I asked about the criminal history of 20 years, I

 5     asked about this --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any dispute about the criminal record?  Is

 7     there any dispute about that?

 8             MR. JORDASH:  There's no dispute about the criminal record,

 9     theres' no dispute that Arkan made inflammatory speeches and there's no

10     dispute that he was a member of the Assembly in 1992.  This is simply, in

11     our submission, an attempt by the Prosecution to keep adding on the most

12     spurious of bases.

13             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, just to finish, I'm going to continue

14     through to 1995 with materials and then -- then in relation to his

15     comment that he is claiming a lack of knowledge as to where he came from,

16     I'm going to suggest to him something quite different.

17             MR. JORDASH:  But he is not claiming that he doesn't know who

18     Arkan was.  He is claiming he didn't know where he came from to

19     Sanski Most and Banja Luka in 1995.  He is not -- my learned friend's

20     proposition suggests that what he is now going to do is elicit evidence

21     of any kind he can about Arkan and his notorious activities.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection is granted.  The video will not be

24     admitted into evidence because the matter is not in such relation with

25     the examination-in-chief that that could be the basis for asking these

Page 15284

 1     specific questions, that is, a speech in 1992 in parliament - if it was

 2     in parliament, we do not know yet.  And, second, to the extent it may be

 3     relevant information, it is not information which could not have elicited

 4     in the Prosecution's case and even a matter arises to what extent it has

 5     not yet been dealt with in the Prosecution's case.  Thirdly, part of the

 6     questions are about matters which are not in dispute as explained by

 7     Mr. Jordash.

 8             You may proceed, not to say that you cannot further explore the

 9     knowledge of the witness where Arkan came from.  I would say let's

10     carefully listen to the questions.  If you come next with a video that he

11     attended a marriage in 1993 or that he attended a football game

12     somewhere, then that is insufficiently related to where he came from in

13     1992, not knowing whether he came from the field or not.  Let's try keep

14     focused on what was the core of the examination-in-chief.

15             You may proceed, Mr. Weber.

16             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honours.  If I could just please request

17     some guidance because I'm little confused as to what their position is

18     with this witness.  Does the Defence claim that no relationship existed

19     between Arkan and the Serbian MUP, and do they also then not -- do they

20     not dispute that the Serbian MUP did nothing to crack down on Arkan

21     throughout 1991 to 1995?  I'm confused.  If that's not being disputed by

22     the Defence, then I can move on.

23             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may, this is a

24     complicated matter.  It cannot be put in simple terms.  I suggest that we

25     wait until re-examination to see whether the witness is aware of the

Page 15285

 1     mechanism in such cases, whether deputies of the Assembly have some

 2     privileges or not.  Because we cannot accept a simple proposition such as

 3     the MUP didn't do anything because it's much more complex than that and

 4     it should be further explored with this witness.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I think, Mr. Jordash, unless there's anything you

 6     would like to add.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I completely agree with that.  Did the

 8     Serbian MUP have a relationship with Arkan?  Yes, it did and no, it

 9     didn't.  Some did, some didn't; it's a big organisation and it's a

10     complicated case.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes.  I think, Mr. Weber, that you have to

12     continue without the guidance you were seeking.  Perhaps you sought

13     guidance which is not so easily to be given.  We'll listen carefully to

14     every and each of your questions and we'll hear whether there are any

15     objections and then we'll decide on these matters.  Please proceed.

16             MR. WEBER:

17        Q.   Mr. Grekulovic, the video that you just watched, did you

18     recognise that as footage from the Serbian Assembly?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The video is not admitted into evidence.  If you

20     want to -- so, therefore, for anyone at a later stage it's very difficult

21     what the witness testified to because it's not in evidence.  Is there any

22     dispute about whether this was a speech delivered in parliament, yes or

23     no?

24             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  There is.  Mr. Bakrac, for you as well.  But there's

Page 15286

 1     no dispute about inflammatory speeches delivered in parliament.  That's

 2     where we stand, Mr. Weber.

 3             MR. WEBER:  If there's a dispute about it, I would just --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's first see whether the witness knows anything

 5     about it.

 6             Have you any recollection of your own of ever having seen on

 7     television Mr. Raznjatovic delivering speeches?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you remember the time, do you remember to have

10     seen a speech about a united Serbian state in 1992?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not remember all the speeches

12     he gave, but I remember some speeches he made in the Assembly as a

13     deputy.  I saw some of those but, of course, I do not recall all the

14     details of his speeches.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber, we can't ask questions

16     about matters which are not in evidence.  Please proceed.

17             MR. WEBER:

18        Q.   Were you aware that Arkan formed the Party of Serbian unity in

19     November 1993 and campaigned for re-election to the Serbian parliament?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Any dispute about this matter.  No dispute.

21             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  So, it's purely knowledge of the witness.

23             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Were you aware that the Party of

25     Serbian Unity was formed in November of 1993 and that Mr. Arkan or

Page 15287

 1     Raznjatovic campaigned for re-election to the Serbian parliament?  Did

 2     you know that?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did, but I didn't know the

 4     date.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 6             MR. WEBER:

 7        Q.   Were you aware whether Arkan campaigned around Serbia during his

 8     re-election bid, and did the Serbian MUP provide security to him at the

 9     locations he went campaigning to since he was a deputy of parliament?

10        A.   Well, I didn't know that security was provided to him because in

11     1993 I didn't work at MUP headquarters, so I wasn't acquainted with such

12     matters.

13        Q.   First part of the question, were you aware whether or not he went

14     campaigning throughout Serbia in 1993, beginning of 1994?

15        A.   I didn't follow his campaign but he probably did go campaigning.

16        Q.   Were you aware --

17             MR. WEBER:  And Your Honours, if you permit me I'm going to ask

18     all these facts at once just to save time.

19        Q.   Were you aware of the following facts:  That Arkan resided in a

20     large residence in Ljutice Bogdana Street in Belgrade, that he had a

21     business in Belgrade, that he was a leader of the Delija which supported

22     the Red Star football club in Belgrade, and he married famous folk singer

23     Ceca, whose actual name was Svetlana Velickovic, on the 19th of February,

24     1995.  Were you ware of all these facts before giving your statement?

25        A.   Yes, I was.

Page 15288

 1        Q.   Based on all these things that were known to you, is your

 2     statement inaccurate in that you do know that Arkan came from the

 3     Republic of Serbia prior to your deployment in 1995?

 4        A.   I did not say that Arkan lived in the Republika Srpska.  I know

 5     that he lived in Serbia.  I also know that he came to Republika Srpska

 6     from somewhere but I don't know from where, I don't know who invited him.

 7     So, that's what I said.  I knew that he lived in Belgrade, I knew his

 8     address and which house he lived in and that is not in dispute but I only

 9     said that I don't know who invited him to where he went with his unit.

10        Q.   How did you know which house he lived in?

11        A.   Every inhabitant of Belgrade knows that.  We as police officers

12     included, of course.

13        Q.   That would include also the Serbian DB; correct?

14        A.   Yes, of course, certainly.

15        Q.   We'll come back to your opinion about Arkan later and discuss

16     some information that was not in the public domain, but I would now like

17     to change topics with you.  In paragraph 1 of your statement you indicate

18     that you were the commander of the 36th PJP Detachment of the

19     Special Police Units from 1995 to 1998.  At the beginning of paragraph 2

20     you state:

21             "From 1999 to 2000 I was the assistant commander of PJPs and the

22     commander of the detachment."

23             When you say "the detachment" in paragraph 2, are you referring

24     to the fact that you remained the commander of the 36th PJP Detachment

25     while you also served as the assistant commander of the PJPs?

Page 15289

 1        A.   I remained the commander of the 36th PJP Detachment since I

 2     worked in the ministry, I was also -- I was issued a decision for the

 3     appointment as an assistant commander of the PJP, but I actually acted as

 4     its commander.

 5        Q.   PJP units of the Serbian MUP including the 36th PJP Detachment

 6     were deployed to Kosovo in 1998 and 1999; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Could I please have 65 ter 6322.

 9        Q.   Sir, you recognise this decision dated 2 April 1999, which

10     appointed you to the rank of colonel; correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Directing your attention to the bottom of the page, to the

13     signature on the left by the date 4 April 1999, this is your signature

14     acknowledging receipt of this decision; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Directing your attention to the other signature on the right, is

17     it correct this decision was signed by Vlastimir Djordjevic?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   This decision indicates that Mr. Djordjevic was the assistant

20     minister of Internal Affairs, the chief of public security department and

21     considered a lieutenant-general in 1999.  Does this accurately state his

22     positions at the time?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic was appointed to the position of chief of the

25     public security department after the assassination of Radovan Stojicic

Page 15290

 1     also known as Badza; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   As a colonel and assistant PJP commander you ensured that orders

 4     issued to PJP units in Kosovo were implemented; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.  For my unit.

 6        Q.   Well, as assistant commander of the PJP units, you ensured that

 7     orders to those -- to PJP units were implemented; correct?  I'm just

 8     asking you about the PJP units, I know that there were other units in

 9     Kosovo too.

10        A.   No, I received a decision to be assistant commander of the PJP.

11     However, I remained acting as the commander of the 36th Detachment.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac.

13             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] I apologise for reacting.  I don't

14     know where Mr. Weber is headed.  However, some proceedings are underway

15     in Serbia so maybe the witness should be made aware of the fact that he

16     is not supposed to answer questions that might jeopardise him.

17             MR. WEBER:  That's fine if he is cautioned.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I have no knowledge whatsoever about

19     proceedings on-going against you.  Are you a suspect in any investigation

20     in Serbia?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.  I'm not aware

22     of that.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You are not aware of that.  Now, if any of the

24     questions put to you would be of a kind that truthfully answering those

25     questions might incriminate yourself, then you can ask the Chamber that

Page 15291

 1     you be allowed not to answer that question.  Now, again, I've got no idea

 2     about any investigation.  Have you ever heard about any investigation

 3     conducted against you on matters which apparently, that's how I

 4     understood it, occurrences that have taken place in Kosovo?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not aware of any such thing.  I

 6     will, however, use that right if there are any such questions.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, at the same time I'm to say the least,

 8     I'm highly surprised that Mr. Bakrac apparently has knowledge about

 9     anything which comes close to investigations or even prosecution, whereas

10     you say never heard of such a thing.

11             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, I may not have been

12     precise, I apologise, but let me give you an example.  In Serbia a

13     procedure is underway against PJP members in Suva Reka, I don't know what

14     detachment they belong to.  Either it is underway or it has been

15     completed and that's why out of the abundance of caution I said that we

16     should be careful.  I don't have any information about this particular

17     witness but I was of the opinion, and it was my feeling that the witness

18     should be alerted to the rights that he may be willing to use.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then perhaps your words "some proceedings are

20     underway in Serbia" were not very precise.

21             Now, Mr. Grekulovic, you've heard what Mr. Bakrac told us, that

22     apparently PJP activities are investigated or proceedings are led against

23     members of the PJP, so that's the only basis on which I advised you that

24     you are -- if you would be concerned about incriminating yourself, that

25     you are in a position to address the Chamber and ask not to be under an

Page 15292

 1     obligation to answer a question and you told me you would use that right

 2     if the question and the answers you have in your mind would justify that.

 3             Mr. Weber, you may proceed.

 4             MR. WEBER:

 5        Q.   According to this decision, you were promoted in rank by

 6     Djordjevic for "exceptional results achieved in combatting terrorism in

 7     Kosovo and Metohija and a significant contribution in establishing

 8     security of the republic and its citizens."

 9             If you are willing to answer, what do you believe were the

10     exceptional results that you achieved to merit this promotion?

11        A.   Well, I really don't know.  Our superior officers were of the

12     opinion that we performed our tasks professionally and that our

13     involvement had contributed to the stability in the area at the time.

14        Q.   PJP units under your command participated in joint combat

15     operations with the VJ in Kosovo; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Also involved in these combat operations were units from the SAJ

18     of the Serbian MUP and the special operations unit known as the JSO from

19     the Serbian DB; correct?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   Are you aware that Vlastimir Djordjevic was convicted before this

22     Tribunal for aiding and abetting the murder of 724 ethnic Albanians and

23     the forcible transfer of a large number of other ethnic Albanians in

24     Kosovo between March and June 1999?  Are you aware of that?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 15293

 1        Q.   I would like to ask you about some of the Chamber's findings in

 2     the Djordjevic judgement of 23 February 2011.  If you feel inclined not

 3     to answer my question at the end, just please let us know.

 4             The Djordjevic Trial Chamber made the following findings in

 5     paragraph 2045 of the judgement:

 6             "On 27-28 April 1999, during the course of Operation Reka, a

 7     joint action of the VJ and MUP in and around Meja/Meje and

 8     Korenica/Korenice at least 300 Kosovo Albanians, almost all men, were

 9     murdered.  The Chamber received detailed evidence as to how the VJ units

10     including the 63rd Parachute Brigade, the 52nd Military Police Battalion

11     worked with PJP brigades to push down the valley, burning houses and

12     displacing civilians towards the police and paramilitary groups near

13     Meja/Meje, where the men were separated from the women and children,

14     taken to nearby compounds and shot.  Women and children were ordered to

15     leave their villages and were directed to Albania by VJ and police forces

16     and passed mixed VJ and police check-points along the way."

17             My question to you is do you accept the Djordjevic Trial

18     Chamber's findings?

19             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, I object to this line of questioning.  I'm

20     presuming, although I don't know --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness take his earphones off.

22             Yes, Mr. Jordash.

23             MR. JORDASH:  I'm presuming, but I don't know, that this is

24     questioning which goes to credit.  There is no need, therefore, to have a

25     judgement findings read to a witness unless there is established on the

Page 15294

 1     record a clear nexus and the witness understands what is happening.  This

 2     is at best, in our submission, an attempt to fill the transcript with

 3     crimes and attribute some kind of guilt by association.  There has to be

 4     a nexus, it has to be clear, and the Prosecution have to know what they

 5     are doing in terms of suggesting how this impacts on the witness's

 6     credibility.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  But the first question is whether it goes to

 8     credibility or to anything else.  Is that credibility, Mr. Weber?

 9             MR. WEBER:  This is solely related to credibility of the witness.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, the witness told us that he was

11     commanding one PJP unit.  You are now asking whether he accepts the

12     judgement.  Let's first ask whether he has any personal knowledge, if he

13     has, about the events described there, then we can ask him questions

14     about.  If not, then whether he accepts or doesn't accept, that would

15     require, I think, to go through all the reasons for these findings, and

16     it may well be that the witness knows something where the factual basis

17     for these findings is not accurate.  I mean, I'm not saying that it is

18     not accurate, but the witness apparently was there, we were not, so

19     let's -- first of all, could you put on your earphones again.

20             Mr. Weber read a portion of a judgement in which it is described

21     what was done in Kosovo including or by -- let me carefully check of a

22     behaviour of VJ units and the MUP matters like burning houses, displacing

23     civilians, separating men from women.  Do you have any personal knowledge

24     about these type of events which took place in Kosovo?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no personal knowledge.  I

Page 15295

 1     know that proceedings are underway for individual cases against possible

 2     perpetrators, but I don't have any personal knowledge about that.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any person proceeded against which was part

 4     of a unit you commanded over?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  May we take a break, Your Honour, sorry.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's time for a break.  We'll take a break and

 9     resume at 12.30.  Could you give an indication, Mr. Weber, as to how much

10     more time you would need?

11             MR. WEBER:  I should finish in the next session, I'm hoping to

12     finish within 45 minutes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

14                           --- Recess taken at 12.04 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 12.41 p.m.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not the Chamber but it's me who apologises for

17     the late start.  I was kept busy by other urgent matters.

18             Mr. Weber, would you please proceed.

19             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 6322 into

20     evidence as a public exhibit.  It's the decision from Mr. Djordjevic

21     relating to this witness.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.  Madam Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 6322 will receive number P3051,

24     Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

Page 15296

 1             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit D524,

 2     page 1 of the B/C/S original and page 2 of the English translation.

 3        Q.   Sir, what is going to be coming up before you is the decree from

 4     President Milosevic dated 5 July 1999, which you comment upon in

 5     paragraph 3 of your statement.  This decree indicates that the Order of

 6     the Yugoslav Flag, 2nd class, was bestowed upon eight individuals,

 7     including yourself, and Milorad Lukovic, son of Milan.  Is it correct

 8     that Milorad Lukovic was the commander of the special operations unit of

 9     the Serbian DB known as the JSO?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Milorad Lukovic was also known as Legija and also went by the

12     former name Milorad Ulemek; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Between 1998 and 1999 you attended meetings in relation to your

15     operations in Kosovo with Milorad Ulemek, then known at the time as

16     Milorad Lukovic?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   During that time did you learn that Milorad Lukovic, Legija, was

19     a former member of the Serbian Volunteer Guard, Arkan's Men?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   How did you learn this?

22        A.   I learned this when I was in Banja Luka.  I learned that the name

23     of an Arkan's deputy was Legija.  I didn't know him at the time.  I only

24     learned of him later.  I know that he was together with Arkan.

25        Q.   Please let me know if I understand your answer correctly, you

Page 15297

 1     said you learned this when I was in Banja Luka, is it correct that you

 2     heard of Legija in 1995 but that you only didn't learn actually who he

 3     was until later on?

 4        A.   You are correct.

 5        Q.   Earlier I asked you if you knew the names of anyone -- any of

 6     Arkan's Men who were in Bosnia in 1995.  You have now told us that you

 7     did know one of the names of Arkan's deputy and it was Legija.  Are there

 8     any other names, that you heard of or know of, of Arkan's Men that were

 9     in Banja Luka or Bosnia in 1995?

10        A.   No.  I only heard of Legija, that that was the name of one of

11     Arkan's deputies.  That's all I heard.

12        Q.   Did you know that Legija resided on the same street as Arkan,

13     Ljutice Bogdana Street in Belgrade?

14        A.   I didn't know that.  This is the first time I heard this.

15        Q.   When you got to know Legija, did you learn that he had provided

16     training to members of Arkan's Men in a training facility in Erdut in

17     Slavonia?

18        A.   Well, I heard about that later.  I didn't know while I was in

19     Banja Luka.

20        Q.   What did you hear about Arkan's training facility in Erdut later?

21        A.   I heard later that it was a facility in Erdut, Slavonia, used by

22     the Serbian Volunteer Guard.  That's what I heard.

23        Q.   Is this information that Legija informed you about or did you

24     hear it from someone else?

25        A.   No, I heard it from my colleagues who had been in Slavonia who

Page 15298

 1     knew about that facility.

 2        Q.   Did that include Obrad Stevanovic and Radovan Stojicic?

 3        A.   Well, I heard that they had been there in Slavonia and they must

 4     have known of that facility.

 5        Q.   I just want to clarify your answer.  Is it correct that Obrad

 6     Stevanovic and Radovan Stojicic indicated they knew of Arkan's training

 7     facility in Erdut?

 8        A.   No, no.  I didn't hear it from them.  I heard it from other

 9     colleagues who were there as unit members, but I never talked to them

10     about that topic, nor did I have an opportunity to do so.

11        Q.   You say "... who was there as unit members."  Who from the

12     Serbian MUP did you you hear from that were sent to Erdut as unit members

13     of the Serbian MUP?

14        A.   No, not to Erdut but to Slavonia in general.  Each detachment was

15     there on a duty shift.  The shifts were 45 days or something.  Every PJP

16     detachment was there on a shift.

17        Q.   If you could please just give me the names of the individuals you

18     heard the information from?

19        A.   About the centre?

20        Q.   That's correct, Mr. Grekulovic.

21        A.   I heard it from a number of colleagues.  I don't know what their

22     names would mean to you.  I heard it from many of them.  Everybody knew

23     about it.  Whoever had been there knew of the centre.

24        Q.   Was this also then, as far as you were aware, common knowledge

25     within the Serbian DB?

Page 15299

 1        A.   It was common knowledge in the Serbian MUP.

 2        Q.   And when you are saying that, you are referring to, I take it,

 3     both the public security and the State Security Service; correct?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5        Q.   I'd like to show you some information that was in the possession

 6     of the State Security Service of Serbia, and if you could review the

 7     document that I call up and I'd like to know precisely what you knew or

 8     what was common knowledge within the Serbian MUP.

 9             MR. WEBER:  If the Prosecution could please have 65 ter 6318.  If

10     it could not be broadcast to the public.

11        Q.   Sir, this is a Serbian DB Belgrade centre background report on

12     Milorad Lukovic dated 11 November 1996.  Could you please read the first

13     page of this report.  Sir, have you concluded the first page?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Before we go through some of the contents, I just want to know,

16     do you agree that the first paragraph of this report reflects the

17     personal information of Legija who was known to you as Milorad Lukovic?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   At the end of the first paragraph, the report contains Legija's

20     registered address.  It indicates that it was on Ljutice Bogdana Street

21     which is the same street as Arkan.  Do you allow for the possibility that

22     there is information that was available to the State Security Service of

23     Serbia and now BIA which you do not know about?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   The third paragraph of this report describes his activities with

Page 15300

 1     the Serbian Volunteer Guard.  Was this common knowledge within the

 2     Serbian MUP?

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry to leap to my feet.  I think I object to this

 4     line of questioning.  It's a line of questioning which is designed for

 5     one purpose only, which is to put this document into evidence.  The idea

 6     that the witness can be asked the question what was common knowledge in

 7     the Serbian MUP in 1991 and a document then be put to the witness that is

 8     dated 1996 --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that would -- your first assumption is that the

10     mere purpose is to put this document into evidence.  Why not see what

11     questions Mr. Weber has and then to see whether this document should be

12     admitted yes or no.  That's a different -- I tend to agree with you,

13     Mr. Jordash, that many of these questions could be asked without the

14     document.  It's not said that the document may not be helpful, but let's

15     first see what the witness knows and what he can tell us.

16             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

17             MR. WEBER:

18        Q.   Sir, I asked you to look at the third paragraph.  In particular,

19     I'd like to note for you in a that paragraph that this indicates that

20     Legija participated in combat as a member of the special unit of the

21     Serbian Volunteer Guard particularly near Mrkonjic Grad.  Is this

22     consistent with your information that you knew that Legija was in the

23     area as Arkan's deputy in the area of Mrkonjic Grad in September and

24     October of 1995?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 15301

 1        Q.   After reviewing this information, does the fact that the Serbian

 2     DB's own records indicate that Legija was a member of Arkan's Serbian

 3     Volunteer Guard, that he lived in Belgrade, and that he was a commander

 4     of Arkan's training camp in Croatia impact, or change your views on

 5     whether or not Arkan's Men had any relationship with the Serbian MUP or

 6     RS Republika Srpska MUP?

 7        A.   Well, I can tell that this document is a background check report

 8     on Legija by the State Security Service.  Whether at that time they were

 9     a volunteer unit or a unit of the MUP of the Republika Srpska, I saw a

10     document where minister Kovac says that it was a special unit of the MUP

11     of the Republika Srpska.  I'm in no position to know with whom they

12     co-operated.  I don't know that.

13        Q.   When you say that you were in no position to know with whom they

14     co-operated, is the "they" that you are referring to Arkan's Men?

15        A.   Yes, yes, I'm referring to Arkan's Men.

16        Q.   Since you have provided a statement to the Trial Chamber that

17     indicates that to the best of your knowledge Arkan's Men were part of the

18     RS MUP and you've -- you've clarified today that that was just based on

19     the documents you saw, I'd like to show you an additional document and

20     ask you if you would be willing to consider a different conclusion?

21             MR. WEBER:  I'll leave this document at this time, Your Honours,

22     but could the Prosecution please have page 8 of Exhibit P543 in both the

23     B/C/S original and English translation.  The Prosecution requests that

24     this exhibit not be broadcast to the public.

25        Q.   Mr. Grekulovic, before you is going to be -- is a series of lists

Page 15302

 1     of daily allowances from the Republic of Serbia MUP state security

 2     department for the first half of September 1995.  These payment records

 3     were provided by the government of the Republic of Serbia from the

 4     security information agency pursuant to an official request for

 5     assistance from your government.  The list before you reflects payment of

 6     daily spending allowances to Milorad Ulemek who is the first person on

 7     the list and known to you as Legija.  Does the fact that the

 8     State Security Service of the Republic of Serbia made payments of daily

 9     allowances to someone who you knew was a member of Arkan's

10     Serbian Volunteer Guard in September 1995, wouldn't that lead you to the

11     possibility that Arkan's Men were employed by the Serbian DB?

12        A.   Well, if this is the case, it follows necessarily, but I repeat,

13     if that is the case.  I don't know on the basis of what these allowances

14     were paid out.

15        Q.   For clarity, then do you accept the be possibility that based on

16     these records, that Arkan's Men could have been paid in some way by the

17     Serbian DB in September 1995?

18        A.   I accept the possibility because I'm not abreast of everything.

19             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 43 of

20     Exhibit P470 in both the B/C/S and English versions.  And Prosecution

21     requests that the document not be shown to the public.

22        Q.   Mr. Grekulovic, before you will be appearing a portion of a

23     submission that came through an official filing from your government

24     before this Tribunal.  On the 2nd of September, 2009, the Government of

25     the Republic of Serbia filed a submission requesting protective measures

Page 15303

 1     for a number of documents including the payment list I just showed to

 2     you.  In paragraph 4 of this submission, the Republic of Serbia indicated

 3     that BIA was the agency who provided the justified proposals for each

 4     document.  The justified proposal for the payment list that I showed you

 5     is now before you on the screen.  It states:

 6             "The document was submitted pursuant to ICTY Office of the

 7     Prosecutor request number 1639 and represents a form of salary payment in

 8     the service.  That is to say, the department of state security of the

 9     Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia.  Apart from the

10     amounts paid and the period of engagement, the document contains a list

11     of names of members of the service, i.e., the state security department

12     as well as the first and last names of persons involved."

13             Having seen the official position of your own government in

14     relation to the document that I have just shown you, do you accept that

15     members of Arkan's Tigers were paid by the State Security Service of

16     Serbia in 1995?

17        A.   Well, according to this document, yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, this clearly demonstrates the problem in

19     your line of questioning.  The witness has here and there expressed an

20     opinion.  What is relevant is to know on what factual basis he made such

21     an opinion.  Now, you feed him with other material he is apparently not

22     aware of but at least that's the most important thing to ask him, were

23     you aware when you formed your opinion about these matters, were you

24     aware of this piece of information.  If yes, then the Chamber, of course,

25     will be in a position to see whether it comes to similar conclusions on

Page 15304

 1     the basis of the documentation.  If the answer is no, of course you can

 2     ask him whether that leads him to any further thoughts.  But, of course,

 3     to ask the witness would you exclude for the possibility, of course the

 4     witness couldn't.  He is not familiar with part of the documentation.  He

 5     has had no opportunity to verified documentation.  So most important is

 6     where he did give his opinion on matters to know exactly what it was

 7     based on because witnesses are here primarily to tell us about facts,

 8     facts they observed, they knew of, and then if they have expressed

 9     opinion which, as a matter of principle, is not for the witnesses to do,

10     but to the extent they did, it was important for us to know what exactly

11     was the factual basis on which they expressed those opinions.  And

12     therefore, it is not surprising that the witness said, well, according to

13     this document because he can't say anything more.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the Prosecution understands and -- the

16     concern expressed by the Chamber and, of course, there are some more

17     questions I do have to put to the witness, however, the reason that

18     triggered the use of these other exhibits is because the witness appeared

19     to have no knowledge or basis but was being put forth by the Defence to

20     make a rather significant opinion --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, I said that that is certainly a thing to

22     be done, to find out what the factual basis was on which he did so.  But

23     then the last question, does that change your mind or, where the witness

24     sees this document for the first time, you couldn't expect anything else

25     than to say, well, if you believe the document, yes, but whether the

Page 15305

 1     document is to be believed is for the Chamber, of course, and not

 2     primarily for the witness to decide.

 3             MR. WEBER:  And, Your Honour, the Prosecution thanks you very

 4     much for indulging my line of questioning.  The Prosecution was putting

 5     these documents because the witness had accepted certain documents from

 6     the Defence and believed it was related to the witness's --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please put your next question to the witness.

 8             MR. WEBER:

 9        Q.   Had you known this information prior to providing your statement

10     in this case, would you have still said that Arkan's Men were members of

11     the Republika Srpska MUP?

12        A.   Well, if I had known about these documents too, I would have been

13     totally confused.  Now I don't know to who Arkan's Men belonged because

14     there are documents showing that they belong to one organisation and

15     others to the other.  Here it seems that they were paid by state security

16     and another document showed that they were the Special Police of the

17     Republika Srpska, so I cannot really judge.  It seems that they belonged

18     to both.

19             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P2545.

20        Q.   Mr. Grekulovic, appearing before you is going to be an entry from

21     the notebook of Ratko Mladic reflecting a meeting between General Mladic,

22     General Perisic, and Jovica Stanisic on 30 September 1995.  This is the

23     entry you comment upon in paragraph 26 of your statement.

24             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I believe that there is a recent

25     decision in relation to the translation of this document.  If, with leave

Page 15306

 1     of the Chamber, I plan on quoting it as if it's the amended translation.

 2     I see the old translation is still the one that's uploaded.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, some of the translations will be replaced but

 5     it has not been done yet.  I take it that especially the native speaking

 6     counsel will keep close eye on -- on the original as well where

 7     translations may still be worked on.  Please proceed.

 8             MR. WEBER:

 9        Q.   At this meeting the entry reflects that Jovica Stanisic states:

10             "There's no command there, political conflicts, cities are

11     falling, Arkan has embedded himself there, we sent 400 people.  As far as

12     I've been informed, this helped at Sanski Most and Novi Grad."

13             Is it correct that you were not present for this meeting?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   Your opinion is based solely on the text of this entry and your

16     personal knowledge of the PJP forces under your command; correct?

17        A.   That is correct.

18        Q.   You would agree that the reference to Arkan in this entry

19     indicates that Jovica Stanisic knew of Arkan's whereabouts in September

20     1995; correct?

21        A.   If we look at the previous document and those background checks,

22     probably.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, again you ask the witness to draw his

24     conclusions from a document, isn't it?  Is that for a witness to do or is

25     that for the Chamber to do?

Page 15307

 1             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the witness in his statement has drawn

 2     conclusions based on that, so based on that --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you say if you draw conclusions here, then we

 4     invite him to draw other conclusions.  It's clear, again, the matter is

 5     was the witness aware of this piece of information and whether the

 6     witness say yes or no, there may be quite a suggestion in this document

 7     that Mr. Stanisic was aware of the whereabouts, but for the witness to

 8     draw such conclusions, such conclusions should be drawn on the basis of

 9     the totality of the evidence, and if the witness has at any point in time

10     drawn conclusions which are based on a very limited factual basis, then

11     we should be aware of that and not replace those conclusions which

12     apparently you disagree with by other conclusions with one single piece

13     of evidence in addition.  That's -- it's perfectly okay to establish a

14     factual basis under which the witness has drawn his conclusions in the

15     statement, that they are, as you are suggesting, that they are

16     incomplete, that there's other material, but then again this last step to

17     say well, isn't it true then that the conclusion should be a different

18     one, that's one step too far.

19             So, therefore, I would certainly encourage you to do the line of

20     questioning you are doing but often without the last question.

21             MR. WEBER:

22        Q.   Based on the reference by Jovica Stanisic, do you know of any

23     other way that Jovica Stanisic could have learned this information other

24     than through Dragan Filipovic?

25        A.   I don't know.

Page 15308

 1        Q.   Since there's a reference to "we sent 400 people," did

 2     Jovica Stanisic or the Serbian DB have authority to send PJP units to

 3     Bosnia in 1995?

 4        A.   Probably through the chief of the sector and with the consent of

 5     the Ministry of the Interior, such a possibility existed.

 6        Q.   According to this entry -- could you please explain that?

 7        A.   The chief of the state security sector could propose that to the

 8     minister.  The minister could then accept and then the chief of the

 9     security sector could send 400 men from the state security sector or

10     department.

11        Q.   So if I understand you correctly, under certain circumstances,

12     Mr. Stanisic could give directions to members of public security;

13     correct?

14        A.   He could do it through the minister.  First he had to propose

15     that to the minister, and then the minister could order the chief of the

16     public security department to send his men.  We are talking about two

17     different departments here, the state security and the public security,

18     but the umbrella person or organisation if you will, above them is the

19     minister or ministry.

20        Q.   Do you know of any occasions in which this occurred where

21     Mr. Stanisic made requests in relation to the use of public security

22     forces?

23        A.   I don't know.  I was not in such a high position.  I was at a

24     much lower position so I was in no position to know that.

25        Q.   According to this entry, Jovica Stanisic is telling Ratko Mladic

Page 15309

 1     that the sending of men helped in Sanski Most and Novi Grad.  My question

 2     to you is, did your PJP units help the VRS in either of these two

 3     locations?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Did you attend the funeral of Radovan Stojicic in April 1997?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Did you see the coverage of the funeral on TV?

 8        A.   Yes, I saw just one part of that.

 9        Q.   As far as you are aware, what was the relationship between

10     Jovica Stanisic and Radovan Stojicic?

11        A.   As far as I know, it was probably good.  I don't know.

12        Q.   With respect to the traditions of the Serbian MUP, I would like

13     to show you actually one clip from the funeral of Radovan Stojicic, but

14     the reason I'm asking you is because -- before I do that, I'd like to

15     know that based on the traditions of the Serbian MUP, what is the

16     significance of the person who receives the flag from the casket of a

17     deceased member and presents the folded flag to the family of that fallen

18     member?

19        A.   Most probably it was part of a tradition.  Not probably but I

20     would say that that would be an important officer, an important person

21     who will receive that a flag.

22        Q.   And what exactly is this tradition?

23        A.   According to that tradition, a person is buried with all honours

24     and before the casket is lowered there is a flag on the casket and a

25     designated officer, somebody from the ranks of the best officers folds

Page 15310

 1     the flag and hands the flag over to the deceased person's family.

 2        Q.   Is the designated officer who is chosen for this tradition anyone

 3     of particular significance in relation to the deceased member?

 4        A.   No.  It doesn't have to be.  It's not a rule.  Sometime an

 5     officer who does that is one of the members of the unit that participates

 6     in the funeral ceremony.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, if we could show 65 ter 6317.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that a video?

 9             MR. WEBER:  It is a video.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us whether you want to elicit any

11     evidence from this witness which adds anything and which is in dispute.

12             MR. WEBER:  Well, during the -- if I can make a submission

13     without the earphones of the witness on.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you please take your earphones off.

15             MR. WEBER:  It would be footage of the burial of

16     Radovan Stojicic, Badza.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  May I expect then I do not know that someone takes

18     off the flag you want know who it is and it's folded and given to the

19     family, is that.

20             MR. WEBER:  It's Mr. Stanisic who receives the flag and presents

21     it to the family.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the reason why I ask.  Is there any dispute

23     about this.

24             MR. JORDASH:  No, and no dispute about what the witness has said

25     about it either.

Page 15311

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  So, therefore, it seems that it doesn't add

 2     anything.

 3             MR. WEBER:  If I could tender just that video-clip then that

 4     would conclude my examination.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Well --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  From the bar table a video-clip, I take it that it

 8     was not in evidence, what you see on the video is that it is Mr. Stanisic

 9     who takes off the flag from the casket it's called, and then hands --

10     folds it and hands it to the family.

11             MR. WEBER:  The video depicts the folded flag being handed to

12     another individual, who hands to Mr. Stanisic and then hands to

13     Mr. Stojicic's family.  And so.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so he doesn't fold it himself.

15             MR. WEBER:  So, Mr. Jordash is aware, based on the answers of the

16     witness, I'm not going to be tendering the whole video.  If I can be

17     report back to the Chamber about the precise portion, I'm just seeking to

18     admit the footage in relation to the burial site and Mr. Stanisic

19     receiving the folded flag and then giving it to Badza's family.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, limited to what was described.  Any dispute?

21             MR. JORDASH:  We object on principle that it's just not necessary

22     and it's again fresh evidence, fresh evidence which is not probative of

23     anything that the witness has testified to.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Why do we need, Mr. Weber, at all if everyone agrees

25     that this is what happened.

Page 15312

 1             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, it's not in evidence, so we are seeking

 2     to tender it.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The evidence is that it's an agreed fact, isn't it?

 4     It's agreed between the parties, and agreed facts do not need any

 5     evidence because there's an agreement between the parties that this is

 6     what happened.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the Prosecution -- the best evidence in

 8     actually the video images itself so the Chamber can see it.  If there is

 9     no dispute about that, I don't know why we are debating a very short clip

10     being tendered into evidence.  You know, that the Defence can later say

11     there's no dispute.  With respect to --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  My first concern was whether we had to show it to

13     the witness.  The second question whether still to be should be admitted

14     from the bar table, unless the Defence, if admitted, would like to ask

15     any questions about it to the witness, but ...

16             MR. JORDASH:  No.  No, I wouldn't.

17             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you will allow me,

18     I don't know what the relevance is of the fact that the chief of a

19     department hands over a flag to another officer.  I don't see the

20     relevance and what this fact might demonstrate to us.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  A kind of a special relationship.  Mr. Weber, I

22     think, elicited that from the witness.  Now, to what extent that

23     relationship in this context is relevant is still further to be

24     considered.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 15313

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber considers there's no need for the video

 2     to be played.  Whether we'll admit it is or not is based on the

 3     submissions of parties.  Until now I emphasise that both Defence teams

 4     have confirmed that if it would have been shown they would have had no

 5     further questions for the witness on this matter.

 6             Then, Mr. Weber.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, would you like me then to upload the

 8     specific clip under a different 65 ter number or not.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  If we are supposed to decide on admission of a

10     specific portion of a video, then it would be good that it would be

11     uploaded and being released so that also the parties could have a look at

12     it, what you exactly selected.

13             MR. WEBER:  Right now it's a larger clip so we will cut it down

14     to that smaller portion.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that the Defence might be interested to know

16     what is selected.

17             MR. WEBER:  No further questions.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Weber.

19             Mr. Bakrac, do you have any further questions for the witness?

20     I'm looking at the clock and I'm wondering whether we -- it's possible at

21     all to finish the testimony of the witness today.  We have 18 minutes.

22             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that

23     Mr. Jordash has another five or ten minutes, I need other ten minutes so

24     if nothing has changed in the meantime, I believe that if nothing has

25     then we might finish.  Yes, Mr. Jordash has just confirmed.

Page 15314

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then please proceed.

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll try and be very

 3     efficient.  I did not manage to react at the right time --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes, while Mr. Bakrac was only telling that he

 5     would be very efficient SO if the witness missed that it was not a drama.

 6     By the way, Mr. Bakrac, the most efficient way is not telling that you

 7     are going to be efficient.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on page 69 lines 4

10     through 7, we have an error in the interpretation, shall I clarify that

11     with the witness or does it suffice first to listen to the original

12     because this error may be contradict what the witness subsequently stated

13     although there should be no contradiction, so this should be clarified.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us what line it is, you said page

15     69 --

16             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the entire sentence can

17     be found in lines 4 through 7, more precisely, line 6.  Here we have an

18     error in the interpretation.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll read what was translated to us.

20             Mr. Grekulovic, one of your answers was:

21             "The chief of the state security sector could propose that to the

22     minister.  The minister could then accept and then the chief of the

23     security sector could send 400 men from the state security sector or

24     department."

25             Now, this is how it was translated to us.  Is there anything you


Page 15315

 1     say should be different?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the state security

 3     department chief can propose to the minister to send 400 police officers

 4     but those officers are from the public security department.  The minister

 5     issues an order to the public security department chief to send those

 6     men.  This is what I stated.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Sufficiently corrected, Mr. Bakrac?  Then please

 8     proceed.

 9             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, yes.  Thank you

10     very much.

11                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

12        Q.   Mr. Grekulovic could you please look at P1056, page 1.  I believe

13     this is an excerpt from an Official Gazette.  No, it's not that, I may

14     have misspoken.  P1056.  The left lower corner says that Radovan Stojicic

15     on the 11th of August, 1993, was appointed as deputy minister of the

16     interior.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   In September 1995, while you were in Banja Luka, did

19     Mr. Radovan Stojicic, Badza, still the deputy minister of the interior of

20     the Republic of Serbia?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Is the deputy minister above any of his assistants?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Was Mr. Radovan Stojicic, Badza, at the same time also the chief

25     of the public security department?

Page 15316

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you, witness.  When my learned friend Mr. Weber asked you,

 3     or rather to the question of the presiding judge when you spoke about the

 4     protection of deputies, you said that plain-clothes officers provided

 5     security for the deputies if the state security department was of the

 6     opinion that there was a threat against such an official?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Those plain-clothes officers that provided security for the

 9     deputies that were under some threat, were they members of the public

10     security department or the state security department?

11        A.   They were members of the public security department.

12        Q.   In plain clothes?

13        A.   Yes, in plain clothes.

14        Q.   Witness, my learned friend Mr. Weber showed you a video-clip

15     where you saw Arkan's speech in which he mentioned the unification of the

16     Serbian lands.  That was on the radio television of Belgrade, Serbian

17     television, so it was a public appearance which aired on public TV;

18     right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   I'm asking you since you are still an employee of the MUP,

21     according to the Serbian law that prevailed at the time and that still

22     prevails, if something is said publicly, something that represents or

23     contains elements of a crime, who is duty-bound, ex officio, to file a

24     request for an investigation and processing of such an individual?

25        A.   It would be the Prosecutor's Office.

Page 15317

 1        Q.   When it comes to the deputies of the Republic of Serbia, at the

 2     relevant time when Zeljko Raznjatovic delivered that speech, did they

 3     enjoy immunity from any criminal prosecution?

 4        A.   Yes, every member of parliament enjoys that immunity.

 5        Q.   I have just one more question and thus I will deliver on the

 6     promise given to the Trial Chamber.  My question is this:  You were

 7     decorated together with some other members of the police and the army.

 8     Did you ever hear that Franko Simatovic was ever decorated while he was

 9     employed or later?

10        A.   No, I didn't hear that.

11        Q.   Mr. Grekulovic, in 1999 you were a colonel.

12        A.   A colonel, yes.

13        Q.   Tell me, the rank of captain, how much lower is that from the

14     rank of colonel in the police, or rather, what was the situation like in

15     1999?

16        A.   There is a difference of three ranks between the two.

17        Q.   Thank you very much.

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] May I be allowed to consult just for

19     a brief moment and then I will finish.  Your Honour, I am kindly asking

20     you to allow me just one more question.  I would like to call up 2D902.

21     It's a photo, Your Honour.  Can it be zoomed in, please.

22        Q.   Witness, please look at the photo.  There are two people depicted

23     in the photo.  Can you recognise them?  Who are they?

24        A.   The person on the right-hand side is Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan,

25     and the person on the left-hand side, I don't know.  I don't recognise

Page 15318

 1     him.

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the other side of

 3     that same page, the verso of that photo.  Maybe that will jog the

 4     witness's memory.

 5        A.   Oh, yes, yes, Toma Kovac, person on the left-hand side is

 6     Tomo Kovac, a minister in the Republika Srpska and on the right-hand side

 7     is Zeljko Raznjatovic.

 8        Q.   While we were on this page, can you please tell us whether you

 9     recognise on Zeljko Raznjatovic left shoulder, maybe this can be zoomed

10     in, can you recognise the object on his left shoulder?

11        A.   I can't tell you what that is.  I can see a patch but I don't

12     know really.

13             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we turn the page, Your Honours.

14        Q.   Can you read what is says on the reverse of the photo?

15        A.   "Manjaca, near Banja Luka, Minister of the Interior of

16     Republika Srpska Tomislav Kovac 1995."

17        Q.   And finally, my last question --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, we are not going to show a photograph to

19     a witness who doesn't give an answer about who it is then to ask him to

20     look at the back where he finds apparently the answer to the question.

21     That's not what we really want to do, is it?

22             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] But, Your Honour, it seems to me

23     that the witness recognised the person even before I showed him the back

24     of the photo.  He remembered who the person on the left-hand side was.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then now will be your last question because it

Page 15319

 1     was --

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] My last question.

 3        Q.   Witness, can you recognise the uniforms on Mr. Kovac and

 4     Mr. Arkan, and although the photo is black and white, can you tell us

 5     whether the uniforms are identical?

 6             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we go back to the photo.  To the

 7     front of the document.

 8        Q.   But can you base your answer on what you remember from that

 9     period since photos are -- the photo is black and white?  Can you

10     remember from that period whether they wore identical uniforms?

11        A.   Yes, the uniforms are identical as far as I can tell.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were probably NATO uniforms,

14     that's what the people used to wear or perhaps Mile Dragic uniforms.

15             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   What is Mile Dragic?

17        A.   It's a company in Serbia that produces military equipment and

18     uniforms.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, I see on the photograph one set of

20     trousers which is incomparable with the other one, then I see a jacket

21     worn by Arkan which seems to be quite different from what the other one

22     is wearing, then I see a kind of a T-shirt by Mr. Arkan, at least the

23     collar is quite different from what the other is, so what might enlighten

24     us are the colours, but the colours, but the colours are not there.  I'm

25     really puzzled both by the questions and by the answers, perhaps good for

Page 15320

 1     you to know.

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I absolutely agree with

 3     you, I just wanted to try and ask the witness to remember whether the

 4     pattern is the same.  The issue was raised here.  Mr. Weber raised the

 5     issue, we wanted to see whether this witness as his memory may be jogged

 6     by this photo.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further questions.

 8             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  Just one

 9     correction in the translation.  Can the witness please repeat what kind

10     of uniforms they were.  He offered two options but this was not recorded,

11     can he tell us, can he repeat what he said.  What were the two options

12     for the uniforms.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What they wore at the time were

14     uniforms produced by Mile Dragic, a company from the Republic of Serbia

15     that produces equipment and uniforms and there was also original NATO

16     uniforms with an original NATO pattern.  Those were the two different

17     models but I can't really tell one from the other.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  That was your last question, Mr. Bakrac.

19             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, Mr. Bakrac kindly gave you ten minutes

21     but not really.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, not really at all.  Can I just take

23     instructions; I might only have one or no questions at all.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please take instructions.

25                           [Defence counsel and accused Stanisic confer]


Page 15321

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.  Just one question.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 3                           Re-examination by Mr. Jordash:

 4        Q.   Mr. Grekulovic, when Radovan Stojicic, Badza, was killed, who

 5     then became the highest officer or member of the Serbian MUP after the

 6     minister, I mean?

 7        A.   Vlastimir Djordjevic was appointed the chief of department.

 8        Q.   If the minister of the interior was absent who would, if anyone,

 9     take over his duties and obligations?

10        A.   Mr. Djordjevic.  As far as I know.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, I feel that you might want to ask who,

12     temporarily, before Mr. Djordjevic was appointed was the highest officer

13     or member of the Serbian MUP.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So immediately after Radovan Stojicic, Badza, was

16     killed, who immediately then was until the appointment of Mr. Djordjevic

17     the highest official?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really cannot remember who it was

19     at the time.  I really don't know.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Who was immediately under him when he still was

21     alive?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Immediately under him there was

23     Mr. Misic.  He was his assistant.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But not at the minister level but then the

25     highest official.

Page 15322

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the official level, yes, he was

 2     the assistant head of public security, Mr. Misic.  But soon afterwards,

 3     Mr. Djordjevic was appointed.  I'm not sure how long that period was,

 4     that interim period.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you take off for one second your earphones.

 6             Mr. Jordash, am I wrong when I think that you are seeking

 7     explanation of the role of Mr. Stanisic during the funeral services as

 8     the highest officer in the service at that moment?

 9             MR. JORDASH:  I was actually aiming at something a bit more

10     general.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  A bit more general.

12             MR. JORDASH:  I'm happy to leave it there.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  No further questions?

14             MR. JORDASH:  No further questions.  Thank you, Mr. Grekulovic.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, any further questions?

16             MR. WEBER:  No, Your Honour.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Grekulovic, since the Bench has no further

19     questions for you, this concludes your testimony in this court and I

20     would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague with your busy

21     schedule, and for having answered all the questions that were put to you

22     by the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

25                           [The witness withdrew]

Page 15323

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, no summary was read into the record.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  I was about to raise that.  I do have a summary and

 3     I do apologise.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Under the present circumstances, I think it would be

 5     better that it will be filed then or if time would be found to read it

 6     because having access to a summary which is filed is far more difficult

 7     than to just listen to what is read.  Perhaps we'll -- before you file it

 8     perhaps we consider whether it would be more appropriate to have it read.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Certainly.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then if there's no other matter to be raised, we'll

11     adjourn and we'll resume Tuesday, the 6th of December, 2011, in this same

12     Courtroom II at a quarter past 2.00.  We stand adjourned.

13                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.

14                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 6th day of

15                           December, 2011 at 2.15 p.m.