Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15938

 1                           Wednesday, 11 January 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is

 8     case number IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and

 9     Franko Simatovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Mr. Jordash, I was informed that there was a matter you would

12     like to raise, and there was also a matter pending still from yesterday

13     which, perhaps, you could then raise after the issue.

14             MR. JORDASH:  That was the matter.  There is two matters I wish

15     to raise.

16             One was time estimates for the Simatovic witnesses.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             MR. JORDASH:  And the second was just to give Your Honours

19     information about our three remaining witnesses and their availability.

20             In relation to the Simatovic witnesses, we estimate for DFS-001

21     one and a half hours of examination.  DFS-009, two hours.  DFS-013, one

22     and a half hours.  And DFS-017, two hours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that information.

24             MR. JORDASH:  In relation to the -- our three outstanding

25     witnesses, DST-071 has indicated -- has indicated that he will not attend

Page 15939

 1     without a subpoena.  We'll file that subpoena application today.  He said

 2     he is most available in the second two weeks of January.  DST-067, that's

 3     Brown, has indicated that he's most available in the second two weeks of

 4     February or March.  And DST-061 has --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Most available is --

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I should say for Mr. Brown he said he's not

 7     available until the second two weeks of February.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We're now struggling with that for

 9     availability to perform, job availability.  Now, I do understand that, of

10     course, the -- that the Prosecution needs some time to prepare, but there

11     is a kind of a duty if you have committed yourself to become a witness or

12     an expert, and I've some concerns about this Court have to adapt its

13     schedule to when the witness is most available.  I hope you understand.

14     I mean, Mr. Brown was not available to make an agreement or to talk with

15     the NFI people for quite some time.

16             And, I mean, this Chamber would like to proceed rather than to

17     hear where somewhere in the future someone is available or most

18     available.

19             MR. JORDASH:  I --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I just want to put this on the record, because as

21     matters stand now we'll have to -- we'll consider the matter and we'll

22     try to fit it all in into the Court schedule, but there comes a moment

23     where the Court says, That's the time when the witness is supposed to

24     appear.

25             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, I appreciate that, Your Honour.  All I would

Page 15940

 1     say on Mr. Brown's behalf is that he's he -- he regularly attends Court

 2     so has a number of competing court interests.  But I accept and

 3     understand what Your Honours are saying, and --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, if you please past that message.

 5             Please proceed, Mr. -- I interrupted you, Mr. Jordash.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  DST-061 has indicated that -- he's indicated that

 7     he's available at the end of March, which I know, again, is not going to

 8     be terribly pleasing to the Court, but that's -- that's what he's

 9     indicated.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's important that witnesses are available

11     before we deliver judgement.

12             MR. JORDASH:  I would rather have these witnesses done and away.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I see your point.  It's not a personal

14     criticism to you, but it's a general comment on how matters are

15     developing and how matters are proceeding.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for the information.

18             Then, Mr. Jordash, the Chamber was informed that although

19     Mr. Stanisic doesn't feel too well today that he, nevertheless, decided

20     that he -- that he'd rather be in court than to excuse himself.

21             Mr. Stanisic, if there is at any point in time any need to

22     suspend or to have a break, don't hesitate to ask us.

23             Yes, Mr. Groome.

24             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I could just clarify some of the

25     discussion that we had yesterday with respect to the Simatovic expert.

Page 15941

 1             We have not dealt directly with the Defence military expert,

 2     although we did speak about the experts generally.

 3             The Prosecution yesterday sent another e-mail to the

 4     Simatovic Defence regarding DFS-020, the military expert.  And this is

 5     the third e-mail making the same request that we've been making since the

 6     17th of November regarding documents and supporting materials.  In

 7     summary, the e-mail requests an English translation of the proposed

 8     military report, which is 700 pages, so it's a very sizable document; the

 9     complete compilation of the underlying source materials and the

10     translations; as well as if they are 65 ter exhibits or exhibits

11     introduced in the record of this case, that that be indicated so that we

12     can locate them.  And we do note that this report contains over 1.600

13     footnotes in 700 pages.  So it's a very sizable document.  So that there

14     is not any undue delay, the Prosecution would appreciate a prompt

15     response to our request for these materials so that we can hopefully

16     avoid involving the Court itself in obtaining these materials and avoid

17     having to file another motion to compel this information.

18             Thank you, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.

20             Mr. Petrovic, have you, and I'm really not referring to any

21     specific knowledge of the content, but 700 pages for a military report

22     seems to be rather large, which immediately raises the issue of relevance

23     of all the information contained in it, and it is 1.600 footnotes.  Have

24     you considered that?

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, I'd

Page 15942

 1     like to raise a number of issues.

 2             We've been thinking about this very carefully.  And if I have

 3     understood this correctly, while waiting for the Chamber's -- we're

 4     waiting for the Chamber's instructions with regard to this matter.  The

 5     last time we discussed the matter, I believe it was said that we would

 6     receive instructions from the Chamber.  Perhaps there's something that I

 7     misunderstood, but I think that that is what was said.  But even without

 8     your instructions, without knowing your position, we've been thinking

 9     about this carefully and we will come to a conclusion that should satisfy

10     you, Your Honours, and my colleagues from the Prosecution.

11             And the other thing that I wanted to say is that the expert

12     report was submitted for translation at the beginning of August of last

13     year.  On a number of occasions we were promised that it would translated

14     by certain deadlines.  The last deadline we were told about was the end

15     of last year.  It wasn't translated by that time.  We continue to make

16     requests for the translation to be completed, and the last time we asked

17     about when it would be completed it was said immediately after the end of

18     last year.  We were told that two parts have been translated and another

19     two parts have been drafted.  The translation will soon be completed.

20             And at some time in mid-January we were told we would have the

21     translation.  As soon as we receive the translation, we will naturally

22     forward copies of the translation to our colleagues from the Prosecution.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  As far as you're aware of, the underlying

24     documentation, is that available in English as well?  Or what percentage

25     is available in English?


Page 15943

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, a significant part is

 2     available, but I couldn't provide you with any numbers without first

 3     checking this.  I could first check this and then with your leave I could

 4     provide you with the relevant information in a few days' time.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please do so.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Any other matter at this moment?  If not, then could

 8     witness DFS-014 be escorted into the courtroom.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Witness DFS-014.  Please be seated.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I would like to remind you that the solemn

13     declaration you gave at the beginning of your testimony in December of

14     last year is still binding, that is, that you'll speak the truth, the

15     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16             Mr. Groome will now continue his cross-examination.

17             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18                           WITNESS:  WITNESS DFS-014 [Resumed]

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Groome: [Continued]

21             MR. GROOME:

22        Q.   DFS-014, where we left off yesterday, I had indicated that I

23     would like to discuss with you information that the State Security

24     Service had about you, and I think to do that safely it's probably best

25     that we go into private session.


Page 15944

 1             MR. GROOME:  So I'd ask that we do that now.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 15945











11 Pages 15945-15959 redacted. Private session.
















Page 15960

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that P2673 be brought to the screen.

 5        Q.   While that's being done:  During your direct evidence,

 6     Mr. Petrovic showed you this document, P2673, and you said it was written

 7     in the Ijkavian dialect of Serbo-Croatian, and not the Ekavian.

 8             And for the purposes of ensuring an accurate record:  "Ijkavian"

 9     begins with Ij and Ekavian begins with the letter E.

10             Do you recall your evidence on this point?

11        A.   I do.

12        Q.   You gave evidence that the Ijkavian dialect is used in Croatia in

13     the Knin area.  Do you recall that?

14        A.   Yes, that's correct.

15        Q.   Where, according to your knowledge, is the Ekavian dialect used?

16        A.   As far as I know, the Ekavian dialect is spoken in Serbia.

17        Q.   Now, other witnesses have given evidence before this Tribunal

18     about the regional dialects.  Is it your evidence that you can

19     distinguish between dialects used in written documents from the words

20     that are used, that an Ijkavian -- a person from an Ijkavian area would

21     use some words and a person from an Ekavian area would use other words?

22     Is that your evidence?

23        A.   Again, I have a problem with interpretation.  But when a person

24     arrives at a place where the Ekavian dialect is spoken, and if that

25     person uses it otherwise naturally, he or she would maintain his dialect.

Page 15961

 1     Only after some time having spent a number of years in a different area

 2     that person would be able and willing to switch to the other dialect.

 3        Q.   My question to you is, is that we all recognise it may sound

 4     different, but from -- is it your evidence that actually different words

 5     will be used?

 6        A.   People use different words.  Two speakers of two different

 7     dialects use their respective dialects and words but still they can

 8     understand each other.

 9        Q.   If you were, you, yourself, were drafting a document that was

10     going to be read primarily by people who spoke Ekavian dialect, would you

11     be able to write it in such a way that it would be in their --

12     recognisable in their dialect?

13        A.   If I were writing a document, I'd write it in my language, in my

14     dialect.  However, if I am taking notes on dictation from someone else, I

15     would use the dialect of the person who is supposed to sign the document.

16     That was the rule of the service.

17        Q.   Could I ask that you now, with the help of the usher, take a pen,

18     and can you mark the words in this document that you indicated it

19     identified to you as being written by a person of Ijkavian dialect?

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it seems to me that

21     there was another misinterpretation.  Mr. Groome is asking for the

22     witness to mark the Ekavian words, whereas the witness received

23     interpretation to the effect that he should mark the Ijkavian words.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, could you --

25             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

Page 15962

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- take care that there's no confusion.

 2             MR. GROOME:

 3        Q.   I want you to mark -- before you make any mark on the document,

 4     let's confirm that you understand the instruction.  I'm asking you to

 5     mark the words of the -- on this document that you recognise as being

 6     used in the Ijkavian dialect, the language spoken in Croatia and Knin.

 7     Okay?  That it's different than spoken in Serbia.

 8             Do you understand my instruction to you?

 9        A.   I understand now.

10        Q.   So please underline each of those words that you recognised.

11        A.   I understand.

12             I can't mark the right words.  The pen is imprecise.  I was

13     trying to underline the word "smjestaj" in the third line from the

14     bottom, but I'm unable to.

15        Q.   If you do your best, and I will ask you to say each word

16     afterwards so that we are sure that we have an accurate record of your

17     evidence.

18        A.   I'm done.

19        Q.   Now, you've underlined eight different words.  To ensure that we

20     have an accurate record of your evidence, can I ask you to do the

21     following:  Can you go through each word, mention the word as written,

22     the word that you've underlined, and then tell us what would be the

23     Ekavian equivalent, the word you would expect to see had it been written

24     from someone from Serbia.  So can you do the first one?

25        A.   The first word is "odjeljenje."  In the Ekavian dialect, it would

Page 15963

 1     be "odeljenje," without the first J.  The second word is "slijedecem."

 2     In the Ekavian dialect, the I and J would be missing.  The third word:

 3     "uspjesno."  In the Ekavian dialect, the J would be missing; it would be

 4     "uspesno."  Then the next: "dijelu."  In the Ekavian it would be "delu."

 5     "Smjestaj" in the Ekavian would be without the J.  Next we have the

 6     "odjeljenje" again.  The seventh word again is "smjestaj," whereas in the

 7     Ekavian the J would be missing.  Next: "obezbjedjenje."  In the Ekavian,

 8     the first J would be missing.

 9             I think we have a total of eight.

10        Q.   Am I correct in understanding that the primary difference is that

11     in eight words there is a J included for the he Ijkavian dialect that

12     would not be found in the equivalent word in the Ekavian dialect; is that

13     correct?

14        A.   That's correct.

15             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, could I ask that the screenshot be

16     saved as an exhibit.

17             MR. JORDASH:  I'm not sure of the relevance of this.  Could we

18     have an explanation, please?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Relevance of the evidence.  Perhaps the witness

20     takes off his earphones.

21             Could you please take off your earphones.

22             I understand that you're testing the solidity of the conclusions

23     drawn by the witness on the basis of this written text.

24             MR. GROOME:  A little bit different than that, Your Honour.

25     If -- we can't scroll down now because we'd lose the markings, but it's

Page 15964

 1     signed by FS, and it's the Prosecution's case that it's Mr. Simatovic's

 2     signature.  My understanding of what Mr. Petrovic was doing when he was

 3     saying that this was a different dialect than Mr. Simatovic, I imagine

 4     that he's going to argue that it's not probable that it's Mr. Simatovic's

 5     signature because it was written in the Ijkavian dialect.  So I'm just

 6     exploring this with the witness so that the Chamber has all the

 7     information it needs to make the determination it will have to make.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 9             Madam Registrar, could you assign a number.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document P2673, marked by the witness, will

11     receive Exhibit P3060, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   Now, DFS-014, I want to move to a completely different topic.

16     It's your evidence that you don't know who Arkan reported to; is that

17     correct?

18        A.   Yes.  But what reports do you have in mind?

19        Q.   I don't mean physical reports.  I mean who he was subordinated

20     to, who his superior in whatever command structure he was involved in.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do apologise for

23     intervening, but I really think that the question ought to be clear.  We

24     listened to what the witness was saying yesterday and who he was

25     subordinated to during a certain period of time.  We heard about what the

Page 15965

 1     witness knew, what he didn't know.  What does Mr. Groome have in mind?

 2     Reported to whom, when, where?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'll withdraw the question because it's

 5     going to distract us from the real inquiry I want to make at this point.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

 7             MR. GROOME:

 8        Q.   Sir, I would like you to explain one of your answers that you

 9     have at T15813.  Your answer was a bit unresponsive to the question, so I

10     will simply read your answer:

11             "According to the Vance-Owen Plan, the Krajina was not supposed

12     to have an army, so many soldiers changed and were renamed into the

13     special units of the police."

14             Do you recall giving that evidence?

15        A.   Yes, that's correct.

16        Q.   Now, the Chamber has heard other evidence that this involved

17     changing the colour of vehicles, changing uniforms from military --

18     colours usually identified as military to the colour blue, usually

19     identified with the police.  Is that part of what you're referring to

20     here?

21        A.   Yes, that's correct.  We're talking about the period 1992,

22     June 1992.

23        Q.   Now, this was an attempt to deceive international observers by

24     changing the appearance of personnel so that they appeared as if they

25     were police personnel; correct?

Page 15966

 1        A.   Well, I don't know what the political decision was taken by

 2     President Martic and the Government of the SAO Krajina.  But I do know

 3     that those forces from the JNA that were withdrawing at the time gave

 4     rise to a new structure.  There were new police units, and these police

 5     units were our only defence against the Croatian forces at the time.  I

 6     don't know whether this was a matter of bypassing a planning or not.  I

 7     wasn't responsible for implementing the Vance-Owen Plan and so on and so

 8     forth.  I don't know what the intention was.  But I do know that those

 9     forces protected all of us who lived in Krajina at the time.

10        Q.   And you've given some evidence about the special units of the

11     police, the PJP.  Was that police unit also one of the police units that

12     incorporated military personnel into its ranks after the Vance-Owen Plan?

13        A.   I am saying that there were these PJP units.  They were part of

14     the Ministry of the Interior at the time, but in fact they took over from

15     the JNA.  They were in fact local people from the area.  They were

16     reservists or active duty members of the JNA.  As the JNA was leaving,

17     the same people put on different uniforms, were transferred to the

18     Ministry of the Interior, and they were then members of the special

19     police units.  And they were different from the police units of the

20     regular kind.  And their responsibility was to keep the peace and

21     investigate crime.  They were responsible for protecting the borders of

22     Krajina.

23        Q.   The specific question that I'm seeking your answer on is:  To

24     your knowledge, was the PJP in part comprised of personnel that had

25     formerly been military personnel prior to the Vance-Owen Plan?

Page 15967

 1        A.   Yes.  To an extent they were part of the army of the JNA.

 2        Q.   Now, in December, at T15815, in reference to Arkan's arrival, you

 3     said that it was celebrated because "he introduced order."

 4             Do you recall giving that answer?  "Yes" or "no" will do.

 5        A.   Yes.  And I stand by that claim to this very day.  And that is my

 6     position.

 7        Q.   So is it your evidence that Arkan, at least in part, fulfilled a

 8     police function as well as whatever military activities he may have been

 9     involved in?

10        A.   Yes.  His task was to organise checkpoints around Benkovac and

11     Obrovac so that the local inhabitants and the local troops wouldn't move

12     out.  Because there was panic in 1993.  And in my opinion and in the

13     opinion of everyone else he carried out this task together with his unit

14     very well.

15        Q.   Now I would like to focus on some more information regarding

16     Captain Dragan.

17             At T15818, you said that Captain Dragan wanted to have more and

18     more camps like Alfa.  Do you recall giving that evidence?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, transcript of this case?

20             MR. GROOME:  Oh, I apologise, Your Honours.  Yes, in this case.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  But then the number seems to be wrong.  It is 15818

22     you were referring to?

23             MR. GROOME:  That's correct, Your Honour.

24        Q.   Do you recall your evidence about Captain Dragan wanting to

25     establish more camps?

Page 15968


 2        A.   Yes, I remember that.  I know that he wanted to open up more

 3     camps but --

 4        Q.   My question to you is:  How did you know that?  Is that something

 5     Captain Dragan told you himself, or did you learn that from other

 6     sources?

 7        A.   Well, I heard about this from him.  He said that he had set up a

 8     camp and that it was his intention to establish other training camps.

 9     But

10     even the one that he established was a camp that he soon left, and that

11     was the end of the role he was playing.

12        Q.   And did he tell you where he wanted to set up these camps; simply

13     in the Krajina, or in other areas of the former Yugoslavia as well?

14        A.   As far as I can remember, he was to do this in the area of

15     Krajina.  And this concerned recruits who were in the entire Krajina

16     area.

17        Q.   Now, I'd like to return to the topic yesterday with respect to

18     co-ordination between the SVK and Captain Dragan in 1993.  At page 46 of

19     yesterday's transcript, you provided the following evidence in response

20     to questions from the Stanisic Defence:

21             "Q.  So is this right, you learnt that the military, the

22     army, was sending recruits to Captain Dragan; Is that correct or not?

23             "A.  --"

24        A.   Yes, that's correct.

25        Q.   I'm going to you read you the whole passage.

Page 15969

 1             "A.  That's correct.  That's true.

 2             "Q.  How do you know that?  Who told you that?

 3             "A.  I know that because some of the officers of the Serbian

 4     army, of the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, were deployed in

 5     Captain Dragan's camp.  What they tried to do was to set up a brigade.

 6     "Vojvoda," "duke," which [sic] would have been under the command ..."

 7             Do you recall giving that evidence yesterday?

 8        A.   I do.

 9             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that 65 ter 6343 be shown to the

10     witness.

11             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, may we take a break, Your Honour?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             Mr. Groome, quarter past 10.00.

14             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour, I'll --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break.  And we resume at quarter to 11.

16                           --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, are you ready to proceed?

19             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

21             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that 65 ter 6343 be brought to the

22     screen.

23        Q.   Sir, this is a report of the SVK Main Staff security intelligence

24     organ, dated the 24th of February, 1993, which was sent to the attention

25     of the RSK Main Staff forward command post.

Page 15970

 1             The first sentence in this report states:

 2             "We have information that some soldiers are leaving the first

 3     combat lines on their own initiative, that is, without the approval of

 4     their superior commands, and are going to Captain Dragan's training

 5     centre in Bruska."

 6         In light of this information, do you still maintain that the SVK

 7     command deployed or sent their recruits to Captain Dragan for training at

 8     the Alfa centre?

 9        A.   Yes, I stand by what I claimed.  And in relation to this

10     document, I can say that the training centre for recruits took over that

11     role at a subsequent date, the role of training recruits.  Initially, it

12     was a training centre.  That's what Captain Dragan called it.  A training

13     centre for the troops, not just recruits.  So what happened, it's true.

14     What the report says, it's true.  Certain combatants went to see

15     Captain Dragan because he was a character in their eyes, someone who was

16     capable of organising units and someone who was capable of leading these

17     combat operations better than officers.  And he showed his capacities in

18     1991.

19             And since certain phenomena had been noted, well, this was a

20     month from the aggression on the Republic of the Serbian Krajina in 1993,

21     and this is why later a decision was taken according to which individual

22     soldiers from the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina could go over

23     to Captain Dragan but with the authorisation of the command that they

24     were leaving.  This had to be done on the basis of an agreement.

25        Q.   Sir, it appears from your answer that you agree.  That at least

Page 15971

 1     at the time of this report in February 1993 there was a problem that

 2     soldiers were deserting their positions on the front line and going

 3     without a proper authorisation to Captain Dragan's training centre.  Do

 4     you agree with that?

 5        A.   No, I don't agree with the statement concerning desertion.

 6     Desertion means leaving or abandoning one's combat positions.  This is

 7     not a matter of deserting.  It's the matter -- it's a matter of leaving

 8     one formation and entering another one.

 9        Q.   Sir, your answer just said: "Desertion means leaving or

10     abandoning one's combat positions."

11             And, again, the first line says:

12             "Some soldiers are leaving the first combat lines on their own

13     initiative."

14             Is that not, in fact, desertion even by your definition of the

15     term?

16        A.   Well, if you leave the command of one unit and are placed under

17     the authority of another unit, and if the other unit is also an active

18     participant in combat, well, then, it's not a matter of desertion.  You

19     could say that individual combatants left the front lines responsible for

20     the protection of certain units, but they became part of other units

21     engaged in combat action.  So whether they were in this unit or that

22     unit, what one can say is that they participated in combat as per

23     establishment at the time of the engagement of the unit in question.

24             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the Prosecution would tender

25     65 ter 6343.

Page 15972

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  In the absence of any objections, Madam Registrar,

 2     the number would be ...

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 6343 will receive number P3061,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 6             Witness DFS-014, could you assist us in the last line of the

 7     first linear of this letter.  We see a reference to the OB.  Are you

 8     familiar with that abbreviation?  Do you know what it stands for?  You

 9     see that it says that only after the intervention of OB and command, the

10     transport with the complete crew was -- or at least the transport was

11     returned to the unit.

12             Could you tell us what OB stands for?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the intervention of the

14     security squad or the operative squad.  I think it was the security squad

15     or the other one, that it seems to be a matter of the brigade security

16     squad.  The 92nd Benkovac one must be what they have in mind.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you think it is

19     appropriate, perhaps I could be of assistance in relation to this

20     acronym.  If not ...

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I'm looking at the other parties because it's

22     usually not counsel gives evidence.  But if you could assist us in

23     understanding what the acronym stands for, then I take it that there's no

24     objection.

25             MR. GROOME:  I have no objection since the witness has already

Page 15973

 1     given his evidence about what he thinks it is.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             Mr. Petrovic.

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think it is the

 5     security organ that it stands for.  OB, I believe, stands for the

 6     "security organ."

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I take it that in the original language it is

 8     two words, the one starting with an O, the other one with a B.

 9             Let's proceed.

10             MR. GROOME:

11        Q.   DFS-014, you've made several references to Captain Dragan

12     somewhat unexpectedly disappearing from the Alfa Training Centre.  Am I

13     correct that he was there for approximately six months after he arrived

14     and then he disappeared, as you characterised it?

15        A.   I can't say that I remember exactly how long he was there for.  I

16     only remember his arrival and a very prominent event at the time.  As I

17     have already said, Bogunovic, the brigade commander, was killed.  And so

18     for a certain period of time this position was vacant.  And I remember

19     that Captain Dragan wanted to become the commander of the brigade of the

20     Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, and he had the support of

21     certain soldiers whom he knew.  But Colonel Dilas didn't allow this to

22     happen, and he was prevented from becoming the head of that brigade, so

23     he then left Krajina.  And as I have already said, the camp was part of

24     the 7th Corps under the command of the Colonel Dilas.  So I don't know

25     whether it was after six month or after five months, but he did disappear


Page 15974

 1     and left Krajina.

 2        Q.   Sir, are you aware that the Alfa Training Centre in Bruska was

 3     not placed under the command of the Army of Republic of Serb Krajina

 4     until the 25th of June, 1993?  Are you aware of that fact?

 5        A.   No, I am not aware of that.

 6             MR. GROOME:  And just for the Chamber's benefit, that was a

 7     reference to D71, an exhibit introduced by the Defence.

 8             MR. GROOME:

 9        Q.   For my next series of questions I think that it is best that we

10     go into private session to ensure that we do not compromise your

11     identity.  And if I could that we do that now.  And I will conclude my

12     examination after these next few questions.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15975











11 Page 15975 redacted. Private session.















Page 15976

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 7             Any need for further questions?

 8             Mr. Jordash.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, please.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You'll be now further cross-examined by Mr. Jordash.

11             MR. JORDASH:  May I, before I begin, Your Honour, just to clarify

12     with the Prosecution a certain issue.

13             I have a document which I was going to use to establish a certain

14     fact about the Alfa training camp, but I don't need to use it if the

15     Prosecution confirm something which they appeared to suggest a moment

16     ago, which is that they accept that the Alfa Training Centre was under

17     the command of the Army of the RSK at least from the 25th of June, 1993.

18             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I would need some time to review all of

19     the evidence on the point.  I'm not prepared off the top of my head to

20     make a binding agreement on a fact.  I'd ask to take a look at the

21     document.  I'm not even sure what document Mr. Jordash is referring to.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Well, it's more that Mr. Groome put to the witness:

23             "Are you aware that the Alfa Training Centre was placed under the

24     command of the Army of the RSK by 25th of June, 1993?"

25             Which seemed like a positive assertion to me.  But if --


Page 15977

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, D71 says that the 107th training centre for

 2     reconnaissance and sabotage activity with a postcode in peacetime at the

 3     Main Staff of the SVK command was established by the order of the SVK

 4     commander, which of course leaves open what was the situation before

 5     that, whether there was no Alfa training camp or whether it was under a

 6     different authority.

 7             So I think the best thing would be, Mr. Jordash, that you present

 8     the evidence you would like to present and ask questions to the witness.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

10             Could I have then --

11                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:

12             MR. JORDASH:

13        Q.   I just want you, Mr. Witness, to have a look at a document and

14     see if you can comment on it.

15             MR. JORDASH:  1D05292, please.

16        Q.   If you just take a moment to read that page and then read the

17     second page so that you've got a full picture of what it says.

18        A.   I read it.

19        Q.   And let's have a look at the next page so you've got the full

20     picture.

21        A.   I've read it.

22             MR. JORDASH:  And can we go to the second page, please, of the

23     B/C/S and also the English.  Thank you.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read this, too.

25             MR. JORDASH:


Page 15978

 1        Q.   Do you recognise the stamp that we see on the screen?

 2        A.   I do.

 3        Q.   And it's the stamp of the Army of the Serbian Republic of

 4     Krajina; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes, it is.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  May I tender this document, please.

 7             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, could I just have a moment to formulate

 8     a view?  I'm just trying to get some more information about the document.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then let's then mark it for identification at

10     this very moment.

11             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D5292 will receive number P --

14     D618 [Realtime transcript read in error "168"], Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

16             Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.  May we go into private session, please.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15979











11 Pages 15979-15980 redacted. Private session.
















Page 15981

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honour.


Page 15982

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  -- page 10 of the English and 8 of the B/C/S.

 3        Q.   And it's -- if you go to line 18, Mr. Witness, and read from the

 4     words "from 12th of October, 1991," down to the words "Second

 5     Administration."

 6             Sorry, it's line 11 for you down to line 16.

 7             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, shouldn't the witness have the benefit

 8     of knowing what this is and who it is that's speaking?

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Well, to be honest, I thought it was fairer to the

10     witness, so I didn't lead him and could -- to leave it as open as

11     possible so the witness could say one way or another without

12     understanding who said it.  But I'm in Your Honours' hands.  If the

13     Prosecution thinks it's fairer, then I'm happy to do that.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  To start with, you can put your question as you did,

15     Mr. Jordash.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

17        Q.   Have you read that, Mr. Witness?

18        A.   Yes, I have.

19        Q.   Now, it's the Prosecution case, as I understand it, that that

20     paragraph reflects the truth; that the Serbian DB had both a unit command

21     and an intelligence team from the Second Administration who were

22     effectively co-ordinating 5.000 soldiers in battles in those locations.

23     Would you have known if that was the case?  Would you have expected to

24     hear about that, whether formally or informally, from the position you

25     were in in 1991 and 1992?

Page 15983

 1        A.   Well, whether I should have known, it's something I'm not certain

 2     of in 1991.  But in 1991 and 1992 I took part in combat and was later at

 3     the location I specified.  And in such positions I probably would have

 4     heard of some such statements as this one, and I may have been in a

 5     position to know some details, but I didn't.  I am unaware of what is

 6     referred to in the document.

 7        Q.   The reality is, isn't it, Mr. Witness, that if there'd been a

 8     unit command operated by the Serbian DB co-ordinating battles in Benkovac

 9     in 1992 you surely would have known about it or heard something about it,

10     no?

11        A.   During the time I wasn't there, I probably would have learned

12     something about it from the stories that went around, but I never heard

13     that someone from the Serbian DB co-ordinated some activities or clashes

14     in the area of Benkovac.

15        Q.   Let's just move on to one other aspect and then I'll be able to

16     finish my questioning.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Could we go to page 11 of the English and 8 -- and

18     stay at 8 of the B/C/S.  And I'm looking for where it -- where the text

19     discusses 26 training camps for special police units.

20        Q.   And I think it's at line 25 for you down to line 30.

21        A.   I've read it.

22        Q.   Am I correct that Obrovac and Gracac and Benkovac are three

23     locations very close to each, other within several kilometres; is that

24     right?

25        A.   They are close.  Perhaps not by a few kilometres but a few dozen

Page 15984

 1     kilometres.

 2        Q.   It's the Prosecution case that the Serbian DB set up, organised,

 3     supplied, had instructors positioned within camps, training camps in

 4     Obrovac, Gracac, Benkovac, would you have expected to know about that or

 5     hear something about that or see something about that?

 6        A.   If I were to comment on this statement starting from line 25, I

 7     could say the following:  As far as I know, I knew of the training centre

 8     in Golubic.  When they refer to Dinara, which is a mountain, it's

 9     something I don't know what they have in mind exactly.  It's uninhabited

10     and there had been a tank firing range before there, the so-called

11     "crvena zemlja [phoen]," but there were no facilities there or anything

12     else.  There was nothing in Obrovac either as far as I know because I

13     visited it later on in 1993, 1994, and 1995.  There was no training

14     centre there.

15             As for Gracac, as far as I know from conversations with the

16     police personnel in Gracac, there was nothing there.  As for Benkovac, I

17     know for sure that there was no centre.  When I was there I would have

18     been aware of such a centre, but it wasn't there when I was there.

19     Unless we are discussing Bruska.  There was no other training centre for

20     the police.

21        Q.   That's fine.  Thank you very much for your very complete answer.

22        A.   I can't say anything about the rest of the area.  I'm not

23     familiar with Plitvice, Samarice, or let alone Banja Luka and

24     Republika Srpska.  There's nothing I can say about that.

25        Q.   That's fine.  Thank you, Mr. Witness.

Page 15985

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, any further questions for the witness?

 3             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, before Mr. Petrovic --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. GROOME:  -- asks his questions, I had asked for a moment to

 6     do a -- consider a view on D168 [sic].  The Prosecution has no objection

 7     to the admission of that document.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then D168 [sic] is admitted into evidence.

 9             Mr. Petrovic.

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11             MR. GROOME:  I'm sorry for standing up again, but I was referring

12     to the transcript.  Apparently, we believe, the transcript incorrectly

13     recorded the exhibit, but it's the last exhibit that Mr. Jordash sought

14     to tender.  I'll leave myself in the hands of the Court Officer to

15     identify the correct exhibit.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That was the shooting, the shooting exhibit.

17             MR. GROOME:  It's the document that was marked for identification

18     pending --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And it was the exhibit that contained the

20     stamp.  And as you asked, Mr. Jordash, "Is this the stamp of the Army of

21     the Serbian Republic of the Krajina?"  But it even is more detailed

22     because the stamp itself refers to the Alfa Training Centre as apparently

23     a part of that army.

24             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.


Page 15986

 1             Then, Madam Registrar, that was -- the last one was D168?  It was

 2     marked for identification.  I have to check that.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  It's D618, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  618, yes.  168 seemed to me to be a very low number.

 5     D618 is admitted into evidence.

 6             Mr. Petrovic.

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                           Re-examination by Mr. Petrovic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Witness.  First I would like to put

10     some questions to you about what we have heard today.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 2D270,

12     item 2.  2D270.2.

13        Q.   Witness, this is a report from the command of the 7th Corps of

14     the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  It's dated the

15     2nd of March, 1993.  Please have a look at the fourth paragraph.

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] And for the benefit of the

17     Chamber, could you please display the translation 2D270, and it's the

18     very same document.  If we could show both versions at the same time.  We

19     do have the translation.  It was uploaded -- a copy from the book was

20     uploaded and then we received a copy from the Republic of Croatia -- or,

21     rather, we received the original documents from the Republic of Croatia

22     at a somewhat later date.

23             Your Honours, it's the last paragraph on the page that you can

24     now see on your screens.  It's a report from the 7th Corps command.  And

25     it says that the intervention platoon, the Lisica Group, went to carry

Page 15987

 1     out a combat task of reconnaissance under the command of Captain Dragan

 2     in the Biljane Donje and Skabrnja.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Witness, does this show that Captain Dragan received orders from

 5     the command of the 7th Corps?  And you in fact testified to that effect

 6     before this Court.

 7        A.   You can see from this document that Captain Dragan received

 8     orders from the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, and this report

 9     from the command of the 7th Corps that is addressed to all the units

10     involved in combat in the area of Benkovac -- well, you can see that they

11     were sent this report so they could be informed.  This shows that he

12     received orders from the command of the Army of the Serbian Krajina,

13     whether it was the command in Benkovac which was a temporary command at a

14     forward command post but was in fact the command of the 7th Corps of the

15     Serbian army of Krajina, well.

16        Q.   Witness, in the same paragraph it continues and says:

17             "The Alfa Training Centre from where this reconnaissance group is

18     carrying out its tasks according to plan," how do you take this?  What --

19     whose plan do they have in mind?

20        A.   It probably means the plan of the Alfa Training Centre.  It's

21     probably the plan that they draft and is then authorised by the high

22     command so that the plan could be carried out.  So it was for the high

23     command, the command of the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, to

24     provide authorisation.

25        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

Page 15988

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, for Mr. Petrovic.

 2     Microphone.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   For the sake of the transcript:  Witness, which command is the

 5     one that would authorise the plans of the Alfa Training Centre?

 6        A.   Well, it was certainly the 7th Corps of the Army of the Republic

 7     of Serbian Krajina.

 8        Q.   Witness, thank you.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could this document be tendered

10     into evidence on behalf of the Defence, please.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, first of all it should be clarified,

12     because there are three documents apparently, and you told us that apart

13     from the version in the book that there was now a translation available;

14     although, it seems that the English version you've shown to us is now

15     still from the book, isn't it?  Because the translation refers to

16     footnotes, for example.

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.  This

18     is the problem that we have encountered on a number of occasions.  It's

19     identical, but the layout of the text is somewhat different.  But the

20     essence, the substance of the report has been correctly translated and

21     corresponds to what we can see in the original.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and has been translated by whom?

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] CLSS, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I invite the parties to agree on the

25     accuracy of the substance and that we ignore whatever is there which does

Page 15989

 1     not reflect the English translation of the document alone, and ignore any

 2     reference to or any text which is taken from the book rather than from

 3     the document itself.  Yes.

 4             Madam Registrar, would you then know what document to use?

 5     Or ...

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  I would like now have a clarification if the

 7     tendered document is 2D270.2 or 2D270.

 8             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] The original is 2D270.2 and the

 9     translation is 2D270.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I invite you, Mr. Petrovic, to consult with

12     Madam Registrar during the next break and then we'll put the matter on

13     the record once it is clear.

14             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, just to remind the Chamber about its

15     original ruling with response -- in regards this reoccurring problem.  It

16     is the Prosecution's understanding that they would be -- all these

17     documents would be MFI'd when the translations are verified.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the translation is

19     correct.  We have checked it.  As I have said, it's just the layout that

20     is at stake.  We have footnotes, for example, that state who is who.  We

21     could neglect this or we could -- we don't want to create more problems,

22     more confusion.  But the translation of the text is adequate and it has

23     been professionally done.  We could go into other details and examine the

24     matter, but we would be wasting resources unnecessarily if we did so, I

25     believe.

Page 15990

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The original document, which is 2D270.2, is that --

 2     Madam Registrar, is that sufficient?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  No, may I just clarify for everyone what the

 4     problem is.  We have two documents, one is 2D20 -- 2D270, which has

 5     English and B/C/S version, and the other one is 2D270.2, which has just

 6     the correct B/C/S version.

 7             From the Registry point we can assign a number only to one

 8     document, one quoted document, not to two of them.  Or we can assign

 9     separate numbers.  So if the party can compile one document with a number

10     to be assigned to it, then we can assign number.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please -- would you please do so.

12     Apparently for Madam Registrar now the major problem is not the

13     translation itself but that the translation contains also a different

14     B/C/S version.  Is that ... because there are two documents, both an

15     original, and we are not going to spend further time on this in court.

16     Please consult with Madam Registrar during the break and then we'll

17     finally assign a number and decide on admission.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.  Thank

19     you.  We have the same situation with the following document that I will

20     show the witness.

21             Could we please show the following document:  2D273.2.  And the

22     translation, the English version of the document:  2D273.

23        Q.   Witness, please have a look at the document.

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please scroll down in the

25     Serbian text.

Page 15991

 1        Q.   And please, witness, have a look at item number 2.

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could you scroll down a little bit

 3     more -- or, in fact, could we see the second page in the B/C/S version.

 4     I believe that we have a different document in the B/C/S version.

 5     2D273.2, the second page.  In the English we have the right part.

 6             And could the Chamber please have a look at the second paragraph

 7     in item 2.

 8        Q.   Witness, please have a look at the first paragraph that you have

 9     in front of you.

10             Witness, have you had a look at it?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   What you can see here, would you say that it corresponds to your

13     testimony according to which the Alfa Training Centre reported to the

14     corps command on the training that was being provided there?

15        A.   Well, that's what this seems to show.

16        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Microphone not activated]

19             THE INTERPRETER:  The beginning of counsel's question was missed.

20     Could counsel please repeat the question with the microphone on.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your question with the

22     microphone on.

23             And then also, Mr. Petrovic, to ask, "Does this document show

24     this and this and this?" is all rather vague.  Could you please focus on

25     the text of these kind of documents and ask exactly what justifies the

Page 15992

 1     kind of conclusions you are ...

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.  Yes.

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Witness, it says training in the Alfa camp is settling into a

 6     routine even though there have been problems with materiel provisions.

 7     Strict military disciplinary measures are being implemented, and all

 8     those who fail to adhere to them are being dismissed from the training

 9     centre.

10             My question is as follows:  Does what is stated in the document

11     correspond with the information you have in relation to the corps command

12     and the training centre?

13        A.   This portrays the situation that I have already described or such

14     as I have already described it.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Does what is stated in the document correspond to

16     the information you have according to the corps command and the training

17     centre.  I mean, Mr. Petrovic, could you be more precise.  What does it

18     then, as you --

19             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the translation, the

20     interpretation, is not correct.  I asked whether this corresponded with

21     the information the witness has on the relations between the centre and

22     the corps command, or does he have information of a different kind.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  What it says here in this document is that the

24     training in the Alfa center is slowly settling into a routine even though

25     there have been problems with material provisions.  "Strict military

Page 15993

 1     disciplinary measures are being implemented and all those who fail to

 2     adhere to them are being dismissed from the training centre."

 3             What does that say at all apart from that it describes a

 4     situation in a training centre?

 5             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  If you want to seek this document to support or

 7     confirm what the witness knows about a relation, then it should be clear,

 8     first of all, what the witness tells us exactly about that relation; and

 9     then second, to what extent the text of this document provides support.

10     And the questions are so general that I have difficulties in establishing

11     what you, apparently, seek to establish on the basis of the testimony of

12     the witness and this document.  Could you please keep that in mind.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Witness, we are talking about information to subordinate units

15     provided by the 7th Corps command.  And in this information, or the

16     report, information is provided according to which what certain units or

17     institutions do under the corps command, and their activities on the

18     13th of May, 1993, are also described.

19             Witness, does the document clearly show what you have testified

20     about; namely, that the Alfa Training Centre as part of the ARSK was

21     under the command of the 7th Corps of the ARSK?

22        A.   Yes.  And the report was provided to the units that was under

23     this command.  The report won't be sent to someone else.  If you don't

24     send a report to the high command -- well, they would compile a

25     collective report for the entire 7th Corps command and then they would

Page 15994

 1     send it to the other units so that all the other units could be familiar

 2     with the situation.  In other units they would describe the situation

 3     such as it was in the entire corps.  And all the units from the corps

 4     were to be informed of that situation.

 5        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Microphone not activated]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could this document also be

10     admitted into evidence.  But I believe that we have to agree on this with

11     the Registry as was the case with the previous document.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  What I'll do, I'll ask Madam Registrar to reserve a

13     number for the previous document and this one so once the issue with the

14     various B/C/S and English versions has been resolved that at least we

15     have reserved numbers for them.

16             The previous one would be, Madam Registrar ...

17             THE REGISTRAR:  The first document 2D270.2, or not, will receive

18     number D619, reserved.  And document 2D273.2, or not, will receive number

19     D2 -- D620 reserved, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

21             Could the witness take off his earphones for a second.

22             Mr. Petrovic, I'll explain to you what my problem is.

23     Paragraph 2 of this document describes in the first part what happened

24     during fighting, units of the Serbian army had no dead or wounded

25     soldiers, and then at a certain moment it says:

Page 15995

 1             "The training in the Alfa Training Centre is slowly settling into

 2     a routine ..."

 3             So then it continues with the training centre.

 4             Now, the core issue is whether that means that the Alfa Training

 5     Centre was -- one of the unit was subordinated; or whether, after having

 6     described what our units have done, that it then described what the Alfa

 7     Training Centre does or does not.  That's the issue.

 8             Now, what you do is you put to the witness, "Doesn't it clearly

 9     show this and this and this?"  Now, whatever the witness says, it needs a

10     careful analysis of the text to understand whether this is a conclusion

11     you could draw from this document.  And it is of no use to go over it by

12     a quick question and a quick answer.  Reading it, two interpretations are

13     possible.

14             Now, of course, the issue then is:  What would be the reason to

15     adopt the one interpretation and what would be good reasons to adopt the

16     other interpretation?  The one is "our units, including the Alfa centre

17     as a training centre for our units."  The other one is "our units and,

18     apart from that, the alfa centre."  Now, that's the issue which the

19     Chamber has to consider.

20             Again, to ask a witness and say, "Doesn't it show clearly that

21     one," the witness says yes or the witness says no -- what we need is good

22     reasons to adopt either the one or the other interpretation of this

23     document.  Of course, the Chamber finally will have to consider the whole

24     matter in the context of the entirety of the evidence.  But even for this

25     document it may be relevant to find out why the witness adopts the one

Page 15996

 1     interpretation, whether he has any reasons apart from the text of the

 2     document, because the text of the document seems to be ambiguous.

 3             I just explain this to you in order to make you aware of what the

 4     Chamber needs, what kind of questions should be put to witnesses, and

 5     what the Chamber needs in order to evaluate the answers.  And just

 6     saying, "This is what the document seems to say," is, of course, not a

 7     very solid basis for making any findings for this Chamber.

 8             Would you please keep this in mind and we'll ask the witness to

 9     put his earphones on.

10             MR. PETROVIC:  If I may, Your Honour --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  One second, witness.

12             Witness DFS-014, could you take them off again.  I'm sorry.  Yes.

13             Yes.

14             MR. PETROVIC:  Your Honour, if I may just explain my position.

15     Witness made a clear statement here that his personal experience is that

16     Alfa was under the command, under the subordination, of the 7th Corps.

17     That is his evidence before the Chamber.  I just wanted to show the

18     documents which corroborates his position and ask him --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's exactly the matter.  Whether this

20     document corroborates or does not corroborate his position.  That's the

21     issue.

22             MR. PETROVIC:  Okay.  Your Honour, I do understand that.  But I

23     just wanted to show that -- to try to extract a bit more information from

24     his knowledge when I present these documents to him.  That was my

25     intention, and I will try to -- I will try to put questions which will be

Page 15997

 1     more beneficial to the Chamber as you instructed me.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the witness can put his earphones on again.

 3             Mr. Petrovic, please proceed.

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Could the

 5     witness be shown 2D266.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  This is D617 -- [microphone not activated].

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] 2D266 in English.  And 2D266.2 is

 8     the original in the Serbian language.

 9        Q.   Witness, have a look at the document, please.  It is a 7th Corps

10     command report, dated the 12th of March, 1993.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we go down the page, please,

12     so that the witness can see the last paragraph.  In the English version

13     we should go to page 2 for the benefit of the Chamber.

14        Q.   This information was sent to the subordinate units.  And the

15     paragraph I am interested in reads as follows:

16             "Quartermaster supplies arrived, were received and distributed

17     yesterday.  The newly arrived squad and platoon commanders were

18     transferred to the Alfa Training Centre for training."

19             Witness, the Prosecutor suggested that the Alfa Training Centre

20     was part of the ARSK as of end of June 1993.  Do you know whether as of

21     the moment the centre was established people, recruits, were sent there

22     who came from the ARSK ranks?

23        A.   As far as I know, once the training centre Alfa was established,

24     which was also equipped in haste with the necessary accommodation

25     facilities and the rest, soldiers began arriving immediately, as we could

Page 15998

 1     see in the -- in one of the previous documents where the security organ

 2     was informing that the soldiers were leaving their units and moving to

 3     Captain Dragan to the Alfa Training Centre.  Since the situation was

 4     tense at the time and there was daily combat and shelling not only at the

 5     front lines but in the rear as well, in Benkovac and other settlements,

 6     and civilians were being killed, only once the situation stabilised along

 7     the front lines did recruits start attending training in the training

 8     centre called Alfa.  It may have been in February or March.  In any case,

 9     I assert that the training centre Alfa was always under the command of

10     the ARSK.  At the outset it was under the command of Benkovac, when

11     people and equipment were being sent there.  Later on, as the training

12     centre and the place where the Vojvoda Vuk unit were supposed to be

13     established fell under the army directly and not under the Benkovac unit.

14     It was simply put directly under the command of the 7th Corps, that's the

15     extent of my knowledge.

16        Q.   Your Honour, could we reserve a number for this document?

17             THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... Your Honours,

18     this document was MFI'd on 15th of December last year as D617, but only

19     the document 2D00266.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm just trying to fully understand the document.

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I am also trying to understand what exactly the

24     document says.  I mean, it's clear what the testimony of the witness is,

25     is that the Alfa Training Centre was on from the beginning part of the

Page 15999

 1     Army of the Serbian Krajina, but I am just wondering and asking myself

 2     what this document gives in support.  You quoted "quartermasters supplies

 3     arrived, were received and distributed.  Yesterday the newly arrived

 4     squad and platoon commanders were transferred to the Alfa Training Centre

 5     for training."

 6             Witness DFS-014, could you explain to us to what extent the lines

 7     quoted by Mr. Petrovic support your view that the training centre was a

 8     unit within the structure of the Army of the Serbian Krajina at the time

 9     of this document, that is, in, I think it's March 1993.  It says that

10     "... newly arrived squad and platoon commanders were transferred to the

11     Alfa Training Centre for training."  What does that say about the

12     Alfa Training Centre being part of the military structure I just referred

13     to?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a military document.  It

15     contains reports which had to do with the army, the 7th Corps

16     specifically.  As we see, there is no mention here of any members of the

17     MUP of the Serbian Krajina; that is to say, of my station and my superior

18     command in Knin which, at the same time, had its forces deployed along a

19     part of the front lines in Pridrag [phoen], near Karin, Benkovac

20     municipality.  We can see in the document that there is no reference to

21     that unit at all.  Only such units are mentioned that the army is

22     responsible for.  There is no mention made of any police units, of

23     civilians, and whether any civilians were killed or not.  This is a

24     purely military document.  If it refers to the Tactical Group 4 or to a

25     brigade or a unit, when they mention Alfa it is understood that it too is

Page 16000

 1     a military unit.  You see that there are no MUP units mentioned there

 2     despite the fact that they were at the front lines at the same time.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  So what you say is, "It's my understanding that

 4     sending people to the Alfa Training Centre implicitly means that the

 5     Alfa Training Centre is part of our military structure"?  That's what

 6     you're telling us, isn't it?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is what I'm telling you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  So it's not an explicit reference but it is for you

 9     an implicit reference.  That's clear to me.  Please proceed,

10     Mr. Petrovic.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Witness, let us go back to this document, the paragraph above

13     this one.  It reads:

14             "Due to people who were not qualified to man the TG-4 asset, one

15     fighter was killed and another injured in the unit of Captain Dragan in

16     the past 24 hours."

17             How do you interpret this?

18        A.   I conclude from this that the unit of Captain Dragan was part of

19     the army.  If in the same paragraph we have a mention of his, within this

20     one-sentence paragraph, this is what it means to me.  They are basically

21     saying that they had people who were not qualified to man a recoilless

22     gun and as a result one of them was killed and another injured.  And in

23     Captain Dragan's units, two fighters were wounded in the past 24 hours.

24     To me it means that it is one in the same military formation and is

25     portrayed as such in this report.

Page 16001

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I then -- a follow-up question, Mr. Petrovic.

 2             Could you tell us -- this is a report to the subordinated units.

 3     Now, we see that the soldier being injured due to improper handling of a

 4     recoilless gun is a TG-4 soldier.  Now we see that Tactical Group 4 is

 5     specifically mentioned as the part of the 92nd Motorised Brigade,

 6     Operations Group 1.  Now, where do I have to put Captain Dragan's unit in

 7     the addressees of this document, which is a report to subordinated units?

 8     Where?  Is it part of the 75th or is it part of the 1st Light Brigade?

 9     Where is Captain Dragan's present in the addressees of this document?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, in March, I would put

11     it under the 22nd Motorised Brigade, in that category.  It's the

12     Benkovac Brigade, and he actually belonged to it.  He received equipment

13     from them as well as ammunition.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, that seems to be interesting, because the

15     report where it tells us about the soldier from TG-4, we see that that

16     unit is specifically mentioned, TG-4, as a sub-unit of the

17     92nd Motorised Brigade.  However, where do I find as a specific

18     subordinated unit Captain Dragan's unit?  Because if you say a soldier

19     from the 4th Tactical Group was injured and a soldier of Captain Dragan's

20     unit or two soldiers were wounded, then I would -- where the address to

21     the units, the subordinated units, is so specific in relation to

22     Tactical Group 4, why doesn't it say anything about Captain Dragan's

23     unit?  Which, as you told us, you assumed was part of the

24     92nd Motorised Brigade.  Why doesn't it say "4th Tactical Group,

25     Captain Dragan's unit"?  Could you explain that?  Do you have any

Page 16002

 1     knowledge of it?  If you don't know, then please tell us as well.  But

 2     I'm just trying to analyse the document, what I see in this document.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, upon arriving in Benkovac,

 4     well, Captain Dragan went there on a voluntary basis, so as far as I know

 5     he wasn't ordered to go there by the military hierarchy.  He didn't

 6     arrive with documents which would place him within a certain unit.  He

 7     arrived, he was given a facility, he started equipping it in terms of

 8     logistics, for accommodation.  He organised the kitchen.  He would

 9     receive certain equipment, beds, and so on and so forth, things that he

10     obtained from the French Battalion camp, from the Karin place, because on

11     the 23rd of January I think that camp was shelled by the Croatian army

12     and three French soldiers were killed who were fleeing, and later he took

13     equipment from there.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there for a moment.  What apparently

15     you are explaining to us is that in terms of equipment Captain Dragan's

16     unit, who arrived as a volunteers unit, that he was facilitated in the

17     way you describe.  Now, I'm less interested in this moment, perhaps to

18     some extent but not primarily interested, in where the beds came from and

19     whether it came from a French unit or from an English unit or from

20     whoever.  I'm interested in subordination.

21             Could you continue your answer.  But then specifically in

22     relation to subordination, that is, who gives orders, who reports to

23     whom, military hierarchy, could you explain why Captain Dragan's unit is

24     not mentioned in any way among the addressees, although the report tells

25     us something about his casualties or at least injuries in his unit?

Page 16003

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am telling you that at the time

 2     when the Croatian army first launched its attack there was no time nor

 3     was there any desire to discuss certain administrative issues.  It was

 4     necessary to rapidly adapt to the situation.  At such a time when you are

 5     short of men and when you are fighting for each position, when

 6     20 soldiers die on a daily basis, in such a situation you haven't got

 7     time to see who agrees with what and how to do certain things.  You

 8     improvise.  People arrive, you say there's ammunition here or there.

 9     Then someone tells you that there's a company or platoon that's

10     available.  You send them to positions.  You provide ammunition.  Later

11     many things are co-ordinated as necessary, but at the time the people who

12     are gathered there had to be sent to the front line.  And it was

13     important for them to contribute to the defence of the Serbian people at

14     that time and in that area, and that's why I said from the outset he was

15     with the Benkovac unit.  And it is there that he received combat

16     ammunition and other things.  People gradually moved over to his side

17     from other units.  He didn't appear with his own unit.  He came there as

18     an individual.  He arrived there on his own.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  But with his own men?  Or not?  Did he come with a

20     unit or did he come just on his own?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He arrived on his own.  He was

22     alone.  And then on the basis of his former acquaintances he obtained

23     men.  People went over to his side.  The people, the soldiers -- or the

24     army had problems because men would leave units and join up with him,

25     because there was an myth according to which he was a superman.

Page 16004

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, what you describe, and please correct me when

 2     I'm wrong, what you describe is a situation where there's no clear

 3     hierarchical military structure in which Captain Dragan can be placed,

 4     but, rather, that people were in combat side by side having the same aim

 5     on their mind rather than formally structured in a hierarchical

 6     situation, at least at the beginning of the time.  Is that a correct

 7     understanding?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a formal hierarchical

 9     structure based on the units that were in the field at the time of the

10     attack in the area.  But when Captain Dragan arrived, he formed on his

11     own initiative a unit which immediately joined the combat.  And later the

12     training centre was transformed and that's why he later became part of

13     the corps structure and belonged to the corps.  You know, I was in the

14     area.  When things are okay, everyone says it's due to their own

15     qualities.  That was also the case with the captain.  When it was

16     necessary to use him in combat, they would say that he was part of this

17     corps or brigade; but if they didn't need him, they said, "He is not one

18     of ours, you deal with him and solve the situation."  So it was a sort

19     of -- the Benkovac Brigade and the 7th Corps kept sending the ball into

20     the other camp, into each other's camp, and the commander of the brigade

21     died at that time, about 20 days prior to that time, so you can see what

22     the situation was like then.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I noticed two parts of your answer, and let's just

24     verify whether that's what you said and what you intended to say.  That

25     Captain Dragan arrived, he formed on his own initiative a unit which

Page 16005

 1     immediately joined combat, and later the training centre was transformed

 2     and that he later became part of the corps structure.  Which means that

 3     in the beginning, when he formed his unit, he was not yet part of the

 4     corps structure.  Is that well understood?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You haven't understood me

 6     correctly.  Perhaps the interpretation was incorrect.  He appeared.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  If you say the interpretation is wrong, we'll check

 8     that.  Please be aware of that, that we'll ask again to -- that your

 9     original words will be listened to and that we'll verify whether the

10     translation is correct or not.

11             So therefore, I urge you to tell us, what I just read to you,

12     whether that is what you said and whether that is what you intended to

13     say.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Captain Dragan arrived on his own

15     in Benkovac.  He appeared.  They called me to the barracks.  We then --

16     or, rather, the municipality assigned him a facility in Bruska and

17     immediately certain combatants started leaving their units and joined

18     Captain Dragan's unit.  And he used these men to form a unit with which

19     he joined in the combat operations under the command of the

20     Benkovac Brigade.  Then many units from the Krajina came to assist, as

21     ordered by the army commander, and he participated in the combat as did

22     the other units.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Was this formalised in any way, that they were still

24     acting under the command of the Benkovac Brigade?  Is there any document,

25     is there any decision?  Because it's a funny kind of military hierarchy

Page 16006

 1     where people are leaving their units going to someone else who has no

 2     formal position then join him and everyone joins in combat, and that's

 3     all under the umbrella of the Benkovac Brigade who has not, as I

 4     understand, has not ordered Captain Dragan to form such a unit, who has

 5     never ordered soldiers to go from there own unit to Captain Dragan's

 6     unit, especially because you also said - and that was the second part of

 7     your answer I would like to verify - is that you said, "When it was

 8     necessary to use him in combat, they would say he was part of this corps

 9     or brigade; but if they didn't need him, they said that he's not one of

10     us."  That means that it's a rather vague situation where the military

11     hierarchy is not, at least, firmly established, because it depends on

12     what they say today and depends on what they say tomorrow.  Would you

13     agree with that?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would agree with that, with what

15     you have said.  That was the situation which was the result of the

16     confusion in the field.  When the commander of the brigade was killed and

17     his position was vacant, I said that Captain Dragan then had the ambition

18     to become the commander of that brigade, and he launched certain attacks

19     with his -- or, rather, wanted his men, some of his men, to support that.

20     But when the corps command and Commander Dilas reacted and refused to

21     appoint him to the position of the brigade commander, the situation was

22     resolved.  It was only later that he became an integral part of the

23     corps, which you can see in some of the documents that I have been shown

24     here.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, whether we can see it or not is -- needs

Page 16007

 1     further evaluation.  I apologise for having a very late break.  We'll

 2     take a break.  And we resume at five minutes to 1.00.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, you may proceed.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Could the

 7     witness please be shown 2D157.2.  The English is 2D157, or, rather, the

 8     English version.

 9        Q.   Witness, the document before us is from the command of the

10     1st Operative Group.  The barracks of Benkovac is the command place.  It

11     says:  "Order for further action."  The date is the 4th of January, 1993.

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can we see the second page in the

13     Serbian version and in the English.  Could we see the second page in the

14     other version.  Thank you.

15        Q.   Witness, under item 5 in this order, orders are issued for

16     further activities.  It says:

17             "The Vukovi Battalion on Stosija-Glavina axis shall attack in the

18     direction of the village of Rezani and must break up the Ustasha in the

19     village of Krasici [phoen], near the church."

20             It says the Vukovi Battalion; do you know who this refers to?

21        A.   This is the Vukovi from Vucjak.  Veljko Milankovic's Vukovi.

22        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Where is the unit from, if you know?

Page 16008

 1        A.   It's from the place called Prnjavor in Republika Srpska.

 2        Q.   [Microphone please]

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Please have a look at the following paragraph, where it says:

 6             "The Tiger Battalion shall launch an attack on the Perica-Glava

 7     village of Palja [phoen] axis, and its task shall be to break up the

 8     Ustashas in the village in the Paljuv [phoen] and in co-ordination with

 9     the CMKMN it shall continue with the attack in the direction of

10     Novi Grad.

11             Witness, who does this refer to, the "Tiger Battalion"?

12        A.   This refers to Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan's unit, which was called

13     the "Tigers."  And when it says to co-ordinate that with the company of

14     the police from Knin, CMKMN, refers to this company from Knin because at

15     the time we held this area from Pridraga and Palja in the direction of

16     Novi Grad.

17        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

19             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Witness, please have a look at the bottom of the document on the

21     left-hand side.  Could you tell us who these documents were forwarded to?

22     What do these markings mean?

23        A.   Well, here it says forwarded to the command of the 7th Corps, to

24     the 92nd Brigade, to the command of the Banja Brigade, to the command of

25     the Kordun Brigade, to the command of the Vukovi Battalion, in fact, B

Page 16009

 1     means battalion, so it's the Banja Battalion, also to the command of the

 2     92nd Armoured Brigade, and also to the archives.  And it also says

 3     command -- the commander, the Colonel Tanga.  He was the deputy of --

 4     Djilas's deputy.  He was the chief of the 7th Corps staff and the

 5     commander of Operative Group 1 which was subsequently moved from the

 6     barracks to the Biljane Gornje place, and the command was there for a

 7     long time.  And it was also forwarded to the forward command post.

 8        Q.   Witness, yesterday in answer to a question by my colleague

 9     Mr. Groome you could that written orders were issued to all the units

10     that were part of the Serbian army of Krajina and that participated in

11     these combat operations.  Is this one such order that you had in mind

12     when you were answering my colleague Mr. Groome's questions yesterday?

13        A.   I think that according to the rules the army had to act in this

14     manner, and this is an example of how it was to act.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  Could

16     this document please be marked for identification at this point in time,

17     because the document has a similar status as the previous one that we

18     have already discussed today.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could a number be reserved, Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  The reserve number for 2D157.2 or 2D157 would be

21     D621, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one additional question for the witness:

23             Have you any knowledge as where the Vukovi or the Tiger Battalion

24     was placed in the military hierarchy?  It was subordinated to whom or to

25     what?

Page 16010

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The command of the Tiger Battalion

 2     and the command of the Vukovi Battalion were subordinated to the military

 3     command.  When they arrived, they reported to the military command and

 4     continued working in concerted action with the army.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but was there any -- any subordination to

 6     another unit or to ...

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Their immediate superior command

 8     was the 7th Corps.  They were subordinated to the command of the

 9     7th Corps in co-ordination with the other units in the field.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Was this a direct command structure, then?  Did they

11     receive their orders directly from the corps command?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As we can see here, we have a

13     Banija Battalion and a Kordun Battalion.  These comprised regular members

14     of the army from the area of Banija and Kordun.  Due to the war, they

15     were transferred to the area of Dalmatia, near Benkovac, and they served

16     the same function as the Vukovi and Tigers battalions.  They all came

17     there on orders.  They were subordinated to the corps commander and then

18     he tasked the commander of the operative group Colonel Tanga to be in

19     charge.  He acted as deputy corps commander at the time.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's still not an answer to my question.  My

21     question is:  From whom did the command of the Vukovi Battalion and the

22     Tigrovi Battalion receive their orders?  Who said, "Now you should do

23     this, now you should do that"?  Was that from the corps command or was

24     that from any lower command?

25             If you know -- if you don't know, then, of course, you can't

Page 16011

 1     answer the question.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I have said:  When I attended

 3     two meetings in the command room when commander Bogunovic was still

 4     alive, they received orders from him.  He was a local and his unit was

 5     the biggest one, the 92nd Brigade.  It was between six and a half and

 6     7.000 men strong.  It was the largest motorised brigade in the Knin

 7     corps.  They had their own armoured battalion and artillery.  It was a

 8     full brigade.  At the time they received their orders from him.  Now, how

 9     it was structured in legal terms and in terms of structure is something I

10     don't know.  I guess they followed military rules.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, in the document which is before us, we

12     see that reference is made, for example: "The main forces shall

13     co-ordinate actions with a battalion of the 92nd Motorised Brigade and

14     the Vukovi Battalion to take control of," et cetera.  That language

15     suggests that the Vukovi Battalion is not integrated or subordinated to

16     the 92nd Motorised Brigade.  And we find that not only once, but we find

17     similar language a bit further down as well.

18             At the second part of the document it says: "A Battalion of the

19     92nd Motorised Brigade shall attack," et cetera, et cetera, "and strike

20     the flank with artillery support and in co-ordination with the

21     Banija Battalion and the Vukovi Battalion," which also suggests that

22     these battalions are not subordinated to the 92nd Motorised Brigade.

23             Do you have any comment on the language used in view of what I

24     just said?  Any comment on the language used in this document?  Because

25     you explained to us that you heard orders being issued by the command of

Page 16012

 1     the 92nd Motorised Brigade to these battalions when you were present

 2     during those meetings, whereas the language here could be interpreted in

 3     a different direction as well.  Do you have any comments on the language

 4     used here?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unit structures were set up before

 6     that.  We -- it was known that the brigade had four infantry battalions,

 7     and so on and so forth.  This was the regular structure as it existed

 8     before the attack.  Since the attack came out of the blue and the units

 9     were sent there to support and assist in attempts to regain territory,

10     the structure was not changed per se, so to have the battalions strictly

11     under the command of the brigade.  But it was well understood who

12     commanded.  At the time, on the spot, there were officers from the

13     superior command, that is to say, from the corps command and the

14     Main Staff; they jointly analysed the situation and issued orders.  We

15     have a situation here in which the deputy corps commander issued such an

16     order.

17             At the time the Benkovac Brigade was the largest brigade and the

18     commanding officer was the person who knew the situation best, and it was

19     normal that he provided suggestions and then the superior commander could

20     accept his proposals and translate them into written orders.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You said the orders were given by the deputy corps

22     commander, that is, Colonel Tanga?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was there, too, as far as I

24     remember.  He commanded Operative Group 1, which served as the forward

25     command post of the corps.

Page 16013

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I've -- I was asking myself, where you refer to

 2     the deputy commander, that this order seems to have been issued by the

 3     commander of the 1st Operational Group, is that -- that is below the

 4     corps level but above the brigade level, isn't it?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm trying to understand what exactly the

 7     hierarchical structures were at the time.

 8             Mr. Petrovic, please proceed.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Perhaps

10     to clarify.

11        Q.   The 1st Operational Group, what was it part of?

12        A.   Of the 7th Knin Corps.

13        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for counsel.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Colonel Dragan Tanga was deputy corps commander who at the same

17     time performed the duties of commander of the 1st Operational Group?

18        A.   Yes.  He was deputy corps commander and in this case he figures

19     as deputy corps commander because there was combat in his area.  The

20     corps commander was responsible for the entire corps area, from Obrovac

21     to Vrlika, and his deputy had a remit which was more narrow in terms of

22     territory so that he would be better prepared for action in a limited

23     area.  That is why the operational group was established and that is how

24     he became commander of that operational group as his deputy.

25        Q.   In the document entitled "Order for Further Action," in item 5 we


Page 16014

 1     read:

 2             "The Tiger Battalion is to attack along the axis of

 3     Perica-Glava."

 4             How do you understand this sentence?  Who issued orders to whom?

 5        A.   The way I see it, the commander of the operational group,

 6     Colonel Tanga, issued an order to the Tiger Battalion, to its command, to

 7     attack along that axis as specified.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Witness.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we go into private session

10     for the next few questions.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 16015











11 Pages 16015-16026 redacted. Private session.
















Page 16027

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.


Page 16028

 1             The objection is denied.  The words "operational group" and

 2     "tactical group" have been used, and Mr. Groome is in a position to

 3     verify with the witness whether his understanding, in the understanding

 4     of the witness, is correct or not.  If not, then we might have to turn to

 5     expert evidence.

 6             Could you answer the question whether Mr. Groome did understand

 7     the words "tactical group" and "operational group" in a sense you would

 8     agree with?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, a tactical group and an

10     operative group, well these are military terms that I didn't learn about

11     in school.  But as far as I have understood, or as far as I understood

12     during the war that I lived through, there were certain things that I had

13     to master.  I had to adapt to the situation.  But from what I learned, a

14     tactical group and operative group are groups that are composed or formed

15     for a certain area.  They are a small command.  We have a tactical group,

16     an operative group, for example, in the Benkovac area that was

17     subordinated to the corps command from Knin, and some representatives of

18     the corps commander would be in charge of them, so it included a smaller

19     number of units than the corps.

20        Q.   Can I just put -- I think we will proceed quicker if I can just

21     put what I believe the definition is and if you can tell me whether I'm

22     correct or I'm not correct.  So it seems you would agree with me that

23     it's put together for a particular area, at least; is that correct?  An

24     operational group or tactical group is especially created to deal with a

25     special or a particular area; is that correct?

Page 16029

 1        A.   Yes, for a particular area.

 2        Q.   Now, am I correct that a tactical group or operational group is

 3     made up of personnel from different units, perhaps different army units,

 4     perhaps different volunteer units, perhaps different police units.  Am I

 5     correct in that understanding of a tactical group or operational group?

 6        A.   Well, one could say that you are right.

 7        Q.   Now, my next question to you is:  At transcript 35 during your

 8     re-examination, you said the following:

 9             "Captain Dragan arrived on his own in Benkovac.  He appeared."

10             Then later on at transcript 49 you said, quote, with respect to

11     Mr. Simatovic and Golubic:

12             "I would have [sic] certainly have heard about him establishing

13     such a place."

14             I'm going to ask that you now look at a short video clip of

15     Captain Dragan himself describing how he came to this area and then I

16     want to ask you whether you still maintain your position with respect to

17     this.

18             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'm going to ask that 2 --

19     Prosecution Exhibit 2976 be played for the witness.  It is an excerpt

20     from that video from 25 minutes, 30 seconds, until 26 minutes,

21     17 seconds.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness didn't

24     testify over these three days about how Captain Dragan arrived.  He's

25     testifying about what Captain Dragan did when he arrived in Benkovac, how

Page 16030

 1     he got there, and who he tried to reach agreements with.  Well, that's

 2     not something that the witness knows.  I don't see how we can deal with

 3     anything that has to do with Captain Dragan before he arrived in

 4     Benkovac.  What did the witness testify about with regard to the period

 5     prior to Dragan arriving in Benkovac?  The witness has been testifying

 6     about Captain Dragan from the point in time when he arrived in Benkovac.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the witness did testify that he came on his

 8     own, which is perhaps ambiguous language.

 9             Did you want to say, that he came on his own, that he came on his

10     own initiative?  Or I think even that ... but I have to check that

11     carefully whether that is -- was what the evidence was, but,

12     Mr. Groome --

13             MR. GROOME:  It's at transcript page 35, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  35.  Let's have a look.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection is denied, Mr. Petrovic.  The answers,

17     what happened upon arrival, do have some suggestive power as to under

18     what circumstances and triggered by what he arrived, so therefore

19     Mr. Groome is allowed to put this question.

20             MR. GROOME:  And so I --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Play the video.

22             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that excerpt from P2976, 25 minutes,

23     30 seconds, to 26 minutes, 17 seconds, be played now.  Sir, I'd ask you

24     to watch the monitor in front of you.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 16031

 1             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "I think that I left a deep

 2     impression with them during that conversation.  They asked me how and

 3     what I wanted to do.  I told them what I wanted to do.  They asked me how

 4     I was planning to do that.  I told them everything about it.  Then they

 5     asked me if I could put it down.  Of course, I put it all down, a short

 6     21-day course, roughly speaking.  That is when I became friends with

 7     Frenki, in a way.  It went much further than that official conversation.

 8     Regardless of this new friendship, the service is the service, and

 9     Frenki's order given at the Metropol was clear.

10             "Captain Vasiljkovic:  He said 'Sit and wait, and when it's time

11     to go down there, we'll all go.'"

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Apologies, Your Honour.  First of

13     all, the witness could hear the anchor as well.  There was a sentence by

14     the narrator, not by Captain Dragan.  That was one thing.  Another thing

15     is the context.  When was this uttered and what period did it refer to?

16     We can perhaps deduce it from the documentary, but the witness is unclear

17     as to what period it refers to.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, could you give the context to the

19     witness to the extent needed to answer any question you may have in

20     relation to this video?

21             MR. GROOME:  This particular meeting that Captain Dragan is

22     referring to is a meeting he had with Mr. Simatovic in the Metropol hotel

23     with another operative form the State Security Service.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  That's at least what is said in this context.

25             MR. GROOME:  Right.

Page 16032

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             MR. GROOME:  And I don't recall the exact date of that.  I

 3     believe that it's in early 1991.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, the witness being sufficiently

 5     informed about the context.

 6             Then please put your question to the witness, Mr. Groome.

 7             MR. GROOME:

 8        Q.   So my question to you, DFS-014, is:  Do you still maintain that

 9     Captain Dragan arrived in the Krajina on his own without any affiliation

10     or relationship to any organisation?

11        A.   What year do you have in mind?  1991, 1993?

12        Q.   When you said he arrived on his own, what period were you

13     referring to?

14        A.   I said that in 1993 he appeared alone.  I wasn't discussing who

15     sent him or who he brought along.  He didn't have a driver.  I didn't

16     mean to say that he came of his own accord.  I was trying to say that he

17     appeared there by himself, alone.

18        Q.   And is it correct that you do not know of whose accord he came

19     there?

20        A.   I don't know who gave him authority or whether he needed any

21     permission to come at all.

22        Q.   And secondly, you -- at T49, transcript 49 today, you were quite

23     unequivocal when you said, with respect to Mr. Simatovic:

24             "I would have [sic] certainly have heard about him establishing

25     such a place."

Page 16033

 1             Hearing Captain Dragan's recounting of how he came to establish

 2     training centres in the Krajina, does this give you reason to reconsider

 3     how certain you are that you were well informed about Mr. Simatovic's

 4     role in the establishing of those training centres?

 5        A.   It doesn't change my position much, because Defence counsel asked

 6     me if I -- whether I would have had knowledge if Frenki had managed or

 7     lead anything, so it entails a period of time.  It wasn't done in a

 8     moment.  Managing or leading takes time, especially on location in a camp

 9     or similar facility.  That is what I meant.

10             As for my position having seen this footage, it has not changed.

11     I am aware of Captain Dragan's movements.  I know he was an adventurer.

12     And in the Krajina he attempted to command the Benkovac Brigade.  And in

13     1995 he even wanted to command the whole army.  In Serbia in 1999 and

14     2000 he ran for Serbian president.  Who could trust such a man?  I never

15     trusted him, and that is why we were never on particularly good terms.

16     He lacked my trust.  I don't know what the statement is based on or where

17     it comes from.

18        Q.   My final question --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. GROOME:

21        Q.   My final question to you, sir, is:  Prior to seeing this

22     videotape, were you aware that Captain Dragan believed that Mr. Simatovic

23     had given him an order with respect to the establishment of training

24     centres in the Krajina?  Were you aware of that before today?

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, sorry, where do we

Page 16034

 1     find that in the footage, the part just quoted by my learned friend, and

 2     what year does it refer to?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the year we have discussed, I think, a minute

 4     ago.  We are talking about early 1991, isn't it, Mr. ...

 5             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And let's just see the --

 7             MR. GROOME:  The portion of the --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  The portion of the video played --

 9             MR. GROOME:  Regardless --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- clearly -- clearly suggests that -- and I'm not

11     saying whether that's true or not, but clearly suggests that the arrival

12     of Captain Dragan was triggered by a meeting he had with Mr. Simatovic in

13     which he was, at least, to say it, encouraged.

14             MR. GROOME:  Well, Your Honour, I think it says more than that,

15     with all due respect.  And if I can put to the witness exactly the

16     portion --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

18             MR. GROOME:  -- I'm referring to.

19        Q.   Captain Dragan says:

20             "Regardless of this new friendship, the service is the service,

21     and Frenki's order given at the Metropol was clear.  He said 'Sit and

22     wait, and when it's time to go down there, we'll all go.'"

23             And my question to you is:  Were you aware of that prior to

24     today?

25        A.   No, I was not.


Page 16035

 1        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 2             MR. GROOME:  No further questions, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 4             I have one question for you.  Well, I should be careful in saying

 5     one question, Mr. Petrovic.

 6                           Questioned by the Court:

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You told us that you communicated with your

 8     superiors in Zagreb until the 5th of January, 1991, and you told us that

 9     they never cautioned me or they never gave you any information about

10     Serbian MUP presence in the area.  You remember giving that testimony?

11        A.   I do.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  If there would have been a MUP presence in the

13     Krajina area within your jurisdiction, would you consider that to be of

14     such importance that they would or even should have told you about?

15        A.   If nothing else, they should at least have warned me of the

16     importance of gathering additional information.  They frequently asked me

17     whether I could observe any influx of people from Serbia who hail from

18     the Krajina, because there were suspicions that there were people from

19     Serbia arriving in the Krajina to man the barricades.  My personal

20     observation, and by gathering information from the police, I could tell

21     them that no such arrivals were registered or observed in terms of

22     ordinary citizens who hail from the Krajina and came back from Serbia.

23     For example, that is the kind of information the people in Zagreb always

24     wanted to know.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I was not asking about individual civilians,

Page 16036

 1     but I was talking about presence of persons linked to the MUP of Serbia.

 2     Would that have been information you would have expected them to convey

 3     to you?

 4        A.   I believe I should have been acquainted with that.  Basically,

 5     first and foremost, to try to be careful so that no one would try to have

 6     me killed.  It would have been of interest for me to know what else was

 7     going on in the Krajina without my knowledge.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you also told us that when you heard from

 9     colleagues that Frenki was around, or MUP - you linked, apparently,

10     Frenki to MUP - that you did not consider this worth to even verify.  Why

11     is it that before the 5th of January you considered this to be relevant

12     information and why didn't you consider it relevant enough to pay further

13     attention to when you heard that in the beginning of 1991 a MUP, Frenki,

14     was present in the Krajina?

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 16037

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21             If there are no further questions, Witness DFS-014 --

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness DFS-014, this concludes your testimony in

24     this court.  I'd like to thank you very much for coming, especially for

25     coming in a week which is not the most convenient week, but that is


Page 16038

 1     immediately after Orthodox Christmas.  We highly appreciate that you are

 2     willing to come back at this point in time.  I would like to thank you

 3     very much for having answered the questions that were put to you by the

 4     parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'd like to thank

 6     Your Honours for having enabled me to present my view of the situation in

 7     the period between 1990 and 1995 in order to assist to the extent

 8     possible to resolve this case in a just manner.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we adjourn for the day.  And since there are no

10     witnesses further this week, we will resume at Tuesday, the

11     17th of January, 9.00 in the morning -- no, no, I'm sorry.  At quarter

12     past 2.00 in the afternoon in this same courtroom, II.

13             We stand adjourned.

14                           [The witness withdrew]

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.13 p.m.,

16                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 17th day

17                           of January, 2012, at 2.15 p.m.