Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16651

 1                           Tuesday, 31 January 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic

 9     and Franko Simatovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Before we start, I have a few preliminaries.  The first one being

12     that the statement on bar table motions which was already distributed

13     among the parties, at least a courtesy copy, still has to be read into

14     the record, which I'll start to do now.

15             The Chamber will now address the issue of the upcoming bar table

16     motions by the Stanisic Defence.

17             On the 21st of November, 2011, the Stanisic Defence notified the

18     Chamber informally that it intended to a file a bar table motion.  This

19     matter was subsequently discussed in court, including on the

20     24th of November and the 7th of December, in 2011, when the

21     Stanisic Defence clarified that it intended to file three bar table

22     motions, two of which covered some 800 documents.

23             On the 7th of December, the Chamber expressed concern about such

24     major bar table motions being filed at a relatively late stage of the

25     trial and asked the parties to meet and try to reach an agreement with

Page 16652

 1     regard to some of the subject matter covered by the documents.

 2             On the 13th of January, 2012, the parties updated the Chamber

 3     informally on the state of their discussions.  The Chamber will make a

 4     number of observations in this respect.

 5             As mentioned, the Stanisic Defence has indicated that the bar

 6     table motions would tender at least 800 documents for admission into

 7     evidence.  The Chamber notes that the total number of Defence exhibits

 8     tendered by the -- by both Defence teams, at present, is around

 9     650 documents.  The Chamber further notes that the Stanisic Defence case

10     is, too a large extent, over and the proceedings in this case are drawing

11     to a close.

12             When the Prosecution, during its case, submitted a bar table

13     motion covering a large number of document, the Chamber expressed its

14     concerns about being flooded by hundreds of documents without precise

15     information about how they would fit into the tendering party's case.

16     The Chamber further emphasised that it would prefer to receive evidence

17     through witnesses.  This can be found on transcript pages 3685 through

18     3690.  These considerations apply equally to the presentation of evidence

19     in the Defence cases.

20             In cases before this Tribunal, where there is an enormous amount

21     of potential evidentiary material that can be considered relevant and of

22     probative value, the burden falls heavily on the parties to organise the

23     presentation of their evidence in such a way that the Chamber is able to

24     properly consider it.  It is for the parties to carefully select the most

25     relevant and probative documents and to provide a clear indication as to

Page 16653

 1     the documents' place within the wider case and the party's purpose in

 2     tendering them.  Not doing this creates a practical and organisational

 3     problem for any responding parties and for the Chamber.  More

 4     importantly, however, the party runs the risk that the Chamber will not

 5     be able to consider that piece of evidence in the way the party intended.

 6             In this respect, the Chamber notes that a document can be relied

 7     on to establish a number of different fact, only some of which are

 8     obvious at first glance.  For example, a government report describing a

 9     series of events can be used to establish that a specific governmental

10     institution had information that these events took place.  However, the

11     same document might be used to establish that the institution took action

12     in response to the events.  In addition, or alternatively, the report can

13     be used to demonstrate that the series of events in fact took place.

14             On the other hand, the tendering party might only have intended

15     for the document to prove that the author of the report worked at the

16     governmental institution at that time.

17             The Chamber expects the party tendering such a document to

18     indicate precisely which information contained in the document it seeks

19     to rely on.  When a document is tendered through a witness, the tendering

20     party's line of questioning and the witness's testimony provide a certain

21     amount of context to the document.  When a document is bar tabled,

22     however, it is for the tendering party to explain the context in detail.

23             The Chamber notes that the parties have made some progress

24     regarding the possible future bar table motions by the Stanisic Defence.

25     In particular, in paragraphs 5 and 7 of the informal communication of the

Page 16654

 1     13th of January, 2012, the parties indicate that some of the

 2     documentation is being transformed into agreed facts.  The Chamber

 3     welcomes this.

 4             In the informal communication, the parties indicate that there

 5     might be disagreement about what conclusions to draw from particular

 6     documents.  However, such disagreements should not be an obstacle to

 7     agree on the content of the documents.  The parties could address the

 8     interpretation of and conclusions to be drawn from specific documents

 9     separately; for example, in their final briefs.

10             Considering the size of possible future bar table motions and the

11     stage of the proceedings, the Chamber expects the parties to treat this

12     issue as a priority.  Once a bar table motion is submitted, the other

13     parties need time to respond, and the Chamber needs time to consider it.

14     The Chamber expects the first concrete steps by the

15     17th of February, 2012, either in the form of a record of agreed facts

16     and/or in the form of a bar table motion tendering those documents on

17     which no agreement could be reached.  These first steps do not have to

18     deal with all of the documents, and the Chamber will set further

19     deadlines in due course.

20             Considering that the parties have already discussed the documents

21     in depth, the Chamber expects responses by the parties to any such motion

22     not later than the 2nd of March, 2012.

23             As the parties are aware, this is a departure from the Chamber's

24     guidance on bar table motions of the 7th of July, 2009, which foresees a

25     joint filing.

Page 16655

 1             And this concludes the Chamber's statement.

 2             Mr. Jordash.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, it's slightly -- it's slightly

 4     unfortunate timing, but we are going to disclose another bar table to the

 5     Prosecution today.  And I say unfortunate timing because it will probably

 6     not make me very popular.  But there are 330 documents within that bar

 7     table, and in some senses it's the largest bar table because it contains

 8     many of the governmental-type minutes which we'd like to rely upon.  I

 9     raise it now simply just to -- in the spirit of candor.

10             In light of Your Honour's guidance, we'll do what we can to --

11     with the Prosecution to reduce that.  But we do see some fairly

12     intractable problems with trying to reduce these types of minutes to --

13     in line with Your Honours's guidance.  But obviously we'll do our best

14     and we do appreciate the guidance and what it's trying to achieve.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  If you're talking about the minutes, I think the

16     first step should be that -- to find the relevant parts of those minutes,

17     because usually minutes of meetings cover far more subjects than perhaps

18     relevant for the party to tender that portion of the minutes.

19             But we'll first leave it to the parties to see -- and, of course,

20     finally, there are -- filing a motion and agreeing or trying to reach an

21     agreement with the Prosecution is the first step to, I would say, to

22     enhance the possibility that the tendering will be successful, that is,

23     leads to admission of the documents into admission.  Because, that's, of

24     course, the second step.

25             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

Page 16656

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  It is important for the tendering party, and I can

 2     imagine that selection and self-restriction may enhance the chances of

 3     success if we're talking about these amounts.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.  I mean, on one view -- well my

 5     preliminary view is that it may well be useful to have a short hearing on

 6     the subject, because I can see that we are going to hit an impasse.  And

 7     the impasse will be that which has been indicated to Your Honours,

 8     which -- and resolves around notice, something that, as Your Honours

 9     know, I've been talking for many, many a month.  And I put it like that,

10     because if I just take the governmental-type minutes, the

11     governmental-type minutes often tell a very detailed story about who was

12     making decisions, the type of decisions being made, the type of supplies

13     from, for example, the Serbian government or the FRY to the Bosnian

14     Serbs, and it is, from our perspective, very difficult to remove much of

15     that and just take the highlights, in the absence of the Prosecution

16     indicating with greater clarity what their case is.

17             If their case is as they advance -- have advanced it so far,

18     these accused were responsible for pretty much everything, and they were

19     the ones guiding and controlling everything.  It's very difficult then to

20     have in our possession documents from government meetings showing that

21     there are many other people who are the front runners in that -- on that

22     issue but then be asked to reduce or take away some of that evidence.  If

23     the Prosecution would supply greater precision, then -- instead of

24     alleging everything, then we might be able to get somewhere a bit more

25     swiftly.

Page 16657

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Your proposal was to have a short hearing on

 2     the matter.  You started already, Mr. Jordash.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Apologies.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll consider that.  I take it that the parties --

 5     first that you'll indicate to the Prosecution what that material is.  And

 6     let's not anticipate on getting stuck on matters where apparently the

 7     discussion has not started yet.

 8             Ms. Marcus.

 9             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Yes, I just wanted to add,

10     before we express our view or anything on a proposed hearing, following

11     the Chamber's statement we are going to be sending informal communication

12     to the Stanisic Defence, basically giving them our current position and

13     our view, asking them a few questions.  Based on their response, we will

14     then send information to the Chamber as to what we believe from our

15     position our current view is.  I think with that information,

16     Your Honours, the Chamber will be in a position to assess perhaps what

17     next steps need to be taken in this regard.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Marcus.

19             Then the second item on my agenda are the leftovers of tendering

20     of documents from last week, Witness Pelevic.  There were some problems

21     with the format of video materials, et cetera.  We were running out of

22     time.

23             Could the parties inform me what material, hopefully properly

24     uploaded in the e-court, is still there to be tendered.

25             Mr. Weber.

Page 16658

 1             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the Prosecution had two videos in that

 2     regard of note.  One was 2D1001, which I believe was displayed during the

 3     Simatovic examination, related to the five-minute speech of Arkan's --

 4     including the text of the "united states of Serbia."

 5             The second one was a Prosecution video, 65 ter 6316, which had

 6     not been uploaded at the time that it was displayed, which was two

 7     video-clips from the funeral proceedings of Radovan Stojicic, Badza.  The

 8     Prosecution also used a still with the witness, 65 ter 6316.1, which was

 9     related to that video.  Aside from that, we did have three other exhibits

10     that were marked for identification that we would be seeking to tender

11     again; that's P307--

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's -- let's take it one by one.  Let's first

13     focus on the videos.

14             2D1001, Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

15             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be P3073, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections?

17             P3073 is admitted into evidence.

18             The other video, 65 ter 6316, Madam Registrar ...

19             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be P3074, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections?

21             P3074 is admitted into evidence.

22             The still from that video, 6316.1, or is that included,

23     Madam Registrar?

24             THE REGISTRAR:  This will P3075, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

Page 16659

 1             P3075 is admitted into evidence.

 2             Then the three --

 3             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  -- documents marked for identification.  These

 5     were -- could you please briefly refer to them.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Yes.  The three that the Prosecution had of record,

 7     they were carry-overs from the end of the cross-examination of

 8     Mr. Pelevic, were documents produced by Mr. Pelevic to the

 9     Simatovic Defence but then the Prosecution examined Mr. Pelevic upon

10     towards the latter part of the day.  They're exhibits P3070, which is a

11     form related to an individual by the name of Zarka Radnov; P3071, which

12     is a form related to Aleksandar Manojlovic; and P3072, which was a

13     certificate that was pertaining to an individual by the last name of

14     Velickovic.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections against admission?  Not.

16             P3070, P3071, and P3072 are admitted into evidence.

17             Nothing else remaining?

18             MR. WEBER:  Not from the Prosecution.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Defence?

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That's then all on the record.

22             Mr. Jordash, the -- during the 26th of January proceedings, the

23     Prosecution proposed that an investigator from its Belgrade office go to

24     the home of Witness Pelevic to photograph a board of photographs at the

25     witness's home, and the Stanisic Defence objected, linking its objection

Page 16660

 1     to its submissions that the Prosecution violated Rule 90(H)(ii) in its

 2     cross-examination of the witness.

 3             Now, that objection was followed by some additional questions put

 4     by the Chamber to the witness and some questions you wanted to put to the

 5     witness, which creates a situation which is at least slightly different

 6     from the situation when you made these observations.  The first question

 7     I would have is whether you are still seeking a ruling on your

 8     Rule 90(H)(ii) objections in light of these subsequent questions which

 9     were very much focussing on the Prosecution's case.

10             Could I hear whether you still, now knowing what the answers of

11     the witness have been, whether you still --

12             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, we don't seek a ruling at this point,

13     but we say that without prejudice to submissions we'd like to or may make

14     at the closing stage concerning what the Prosecution, in our view, should

15     have put to that witness.  We -- we appreciated the course that

16     Your Honours took, but Your Honours will also appreciate that the time

17     was extremely limited, and I'd like to be able to look at, again, how the

18     Prosecution proceeded with the witness, and what they may seek to rely

19     upon in the future and what our position would be in they do seek to rely

20     upon certain aspects of his evidence without having, in our view, put

21     their case very clearly.

22             So we don't ask for a ruling, but ...

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, now, of course, Mr. Jordash, I will discuss it

24     with my colleagues, but at a certain moment it should be clear whether

25     the evidence is there, yes or no.  I mean, I take it that your objection

Page 16661

 1     against violation of Rule 90(H)(ii) would be that some of the evidence

 2     would be stricken from the record.  That's, I mean ... unless you had

 3     other ideas on what remedies would be there.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Well, either stricken from the record, or --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Or ignored?  Or, I mean, if it's on the record, the

 6     Prosecution would --

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Or -- well stricken from the record or that the

 8     Prosecution not be allowed to rely upon that evidence in particular ways,

 9     depending upon the way that they questioned the witness.  For example, if

10     they didn't put to the witness proposition A, they couldn't rely upon an

11     answer he gave to support proposition A.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I see your point.  At the same time, of course,

13     it is a bit -- if you would do this only in -- during closing argument,

14     for example, then, of course, it would be a bit late because at that

15     moment it would be unclear for the Prosecution what they can rely upon or

16     not because no ruling then has been made yet.

17             So, therefore, whether -- your proposal, to say, Well, we do not

18     insist on a ruling on Rule 90(H)(ii), but we keep it open to -- to -- to

19     seek certain remedies at later stages, might, from a procedural point of

20     view, create some problems.

21             I suggest the following.  At this moment, you're not insisting on

22     a ruling.  Could you please discuss with the Prosecution whether there

23     are any elements remaining where you say, Well, this and this and this,

24     you shouldn't use that, and then see to what extent you can agree with

25     the Prosecution.  If there's no agreement, then perhaps at a later stage

Page 16662

 1     it would be -- it would be clear to the Chamber what kind of remedy in

 2     respect of what portions of the evidence you're seeking.  Rather than to

 3     wait until the final argument.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  The problem I can foresee in that is as follows.

 5     That if the -- we don't object to the witness -- sorry, to the

 6     Prosecution investigators going to the witness's premises and taking

 7     those photographs, but we don't know what the Prosecution are going to

 8     say about the five individuals they cross-examined about.  I don't think

 9     anyone in the courtroom could know what they're going to say about those

10     five individuals, because they do not explain that position except that

11     they were paid by the DB.  But we don't know any -- much more than that.

12     We don't know which operations they are alleged to have been a part of,

13     and so on.  Or what their criminal conduct, if any, was, or how that

14     relates to the criminal purpose alleged against the accused.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So perhaps you could at least start a conversation

16     with the Prosecution in what respect they want to rely on the evidence of

17     this witness in relation to those five persons.  That's one.

18             Second, apparently there's no objection at this moment against

19     sending an investigator.  I do not know -- it's -- it's -- the Chamber --

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

22                           [B/C/S on English channel]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I get some nice B/C/S on my English channel.

24             There's no objection against sending an investigator.  At the

25     same time, the Chamber has not, at this moment, doesn't feel it of such

Page 16663

 1     importance that we would urge you to do that.  But, of course, there's no

 2     objection.  If you want at a later stage to show us that photograph, then

 3     we will consider that.  But it's certainly, at this moment, it is not

 4     a -- something the Chamber considers of such importance that it -- that

 5     it either invites you or encourages you to do that.  We leave it entirely

 6     in the hands of the Prosecution.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour, it is understood.  In an

 8     abundance of caution, if the Prosecution does proceed, we do anticipate

 9     making arrangements through VWS just in order to do that.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's what was on my list remaining from last

11     week.

12             Anything else to be raised by the parties?

13             MR. JORDASH:  May I raise an issue concerning Mr. Stanisic's

14     health?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honours will recall that last week I indicated

17     that Mr. Stanisic was attending the Bronovo hospital for the second round

18     of treatment, the long-awaited treatment.

19             Unfortunately, it appears that options have run out at the

20     Bronovo hospital.  Mr. Stanisic has been told that he cannot receive the

21     second treatment because it would be too dangerous to his health to take

22     the risk of, I think, allergic or other reactions.

23             He has been told that the last option is surgery, surgery which

24     is not possible in the Netherlands, but is available at the US -- in the

25     USA, at the Cleveland Clinic, which apparently is the paramount clinic

Page 16664

 1     for this type of illness.

 2             Apparently Dr. van Geenen is going to write an official report

 3     following a telephone consultation next Thursday at 3.00 with Dr. Bo Shen

 4     in Cleveland and Mr. Stanisic's long-standing doctor, Dr. Tarabar from

 5     Belgrade.  Things I -- we hope would be much clearer then.

 6             We would respectfully request that the Trial Chamber request an

 7     urgent report from a specialist, the reporting specialist dealing with

 8     this latest subject, this latest news.

 9             Yesterday we received answers from the reporting medical officer

10     to the questions which we asked Your Honours to pose, and we're very

11     grateful for those answers, answers which, as Your Honours know, we have

12     not been able to obtain through the Registry from the treating doctors.

13     And similarly --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You are talking about the specific questions the

15     Chamber put to the reporting medical officer?

16             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.  Yes.  And the answers were extremely useful

17     to us.

18             We would, ideally, like to take the same route through the

19     Registry and to the treating doctors with this latest subject, just to

20     try to find out what precisely is the situation and the urgency of the

21     treatment proposed.  In light of the Registry's present position, or

22     present position, we are not going to get answers to that -- to those

23     questions via that route.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And you're now talking about the questions in

25     relation to the treatment -- the illness which triggered the need for

Page 16665

 1     this new medication and -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.  In sum, we would say the best route for

 3     obtaining information which relates solely to Mr. Stanisic's treatment

 4     rather than the -- directly to the accused's fitness would be to go to

 5     his treating doctors.  Unfortunately, the Registry do not take the same

 6     view.

 7             So what we're asking again is that the Court intervene to this

 8     degree to the extent that Your Honours would order the reporting

 9     specialist to report on this latest development.  That serves two

10     purposes:  One, it provides us, or, rather, Mr. Stanisic with more

11     detail; and, secondly, it would reassure, we hope, the Court, that

12     Mr. Stanisic's ability to participate in the trial is not affected by

13     this latest development.  And for the avoidance of doubt, we're not

14     suggesting at this stage that it does.  We don't have the evidence to say

15     that.  But we do think, given the seriousness of this development, that

16     caution is perhaps the best approach, and more information would be a

17     wise course.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, of course, the difference between the

19     reporting on the matter where you had difficulties in obtaining

20     information and the reporting on gastro-enterological problems was that

21     we had a specialist-reporting doctor in that field, where we did not have

22     any specialist reporting on psychological and psychiatric -- well,

23     Dr. de Man, of course, but there was this conflict with the treating

24     doctors.

25             Now, wouldn't it be best that with seek an urgent report

Page 16666

 1     immediately after that contact this week, Thursday, has taken place,

 2     because then most likely we have the relevant information, and that we

 3     then specifically will ask the reporting specialist doctor to gain all

 4     the information from the treating doctors, including their communication

 5     with specialists in Cleveland, and then to receive a full overview of his

 6     opinion about that situation in terms of discontinuing the treatment in

 7     the Bronovo hospital, perhaps the Cleveland hospital as being the only

 8     one, or the best, for treatment, so that we formulate a few questions?

 9     If you have any suggestions, you may have noticed that the Chamber

10     prefers to formulate the questions itself.  We've done -- always done

11     that because we are the ones who receive, first of all, the information.

12     We are seeking it, first of all.  But, of course, we are open to any

13     suggestions.  And you may have noticed that apparently what you were

14     seeking in the recent past about the treatment on which you couldn't get

15     the information that hopefully the Chamber included what you wanted to

16     know in the questions it put to the -- to the reporting medical officer.

17             MR. JORDASH:  We completely agree that the right course would be

18     to wait until this consultation.  And perhaps the way for me to answer

19     the second part is to say that there are some outstanding issues and we

20     are -- but we're not going to concern the Trial Chamber with them at this

21     stage.  We're filing the motion to the President today concerning OLAD's

22     position, but certainly the information that Your Honours elicited was

23     extremely useful and we're extremely grateful for that intervention.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You'll understand that what you'd like to know

25     may be a mix of what Mr. Stanisic wants to know as a patient and what he

Page 16667

 1     wants to know so that it can be passed on to the Chamber as being

 2     relevant for the proceedings.  And we try to make a clear distinction

 3     between the two so that we, especially, to the extent possible, will

 4     assist the Defence in receiving the information which, for the Chamber's

 5     relevance to receive for its purposes, and what is outside that scope,

 6     that we leave that to Defence and Registry or Defence and President or

 7     whomever is competent to deal with that.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.  And I hope that I've tried to

 9     also maintain that distinction, because I can see that distinction quite

10     clearly.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll consider -- if there is any input

12     as far as questions are concerned, again, we may formulate them

13     ourselves, we may impose certain limitations or even extensions, but if

14     you, in whatever way, make that, your wishes, available to the Chamber,

15     then we can consider them, because in view of the fact that it's Tuesday

16     and when, Thursday, the communication between Cleveland and The Hague

17     takes place, we would like to receive as soon as possible after that

18     communication the information we need.

19             MR. JORDASH:  And we'll send any questions, if we have them, by

20     tomorrow, close of play.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             Ms. Marcus, usually the Office of the Prosecution does not

23     intervene a lot, but -- on the manner, but you're on your feet.

24             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour, it's only to say we fully support

25     what's taking place now.  We would just welcome also the opportunity to


Page 16668

 1     put some proposed questions to the Chamber as we've done previously on

 2     many instances.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then if we would stay within the same

 4     time-limits as the Defence indicated, that would be good.

 5             MS. MARCUS:  We'll do so.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that the Simatovic, although it may

 7     have an impact on the proceedings at this moment, has no observations, or

 8     would you like to address the Chamber, Mr. Petrovic?

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we will have a

10     position to state on this matter, but it is too soon now.  As soon as we

11     have sufficient information, we will inform you of our position.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Simatovic [sic].

13             Then no other preliminaries.

14             Then, in relation to the next witness.

15             MR. FARR:  Your Honour --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. FARR:  -- there is one thing:  There's a pending motion for

18     protective measures from Serbia, and the Prosecution has a --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That was exactly why I had on my mind to go to

20     private session.

21             We move into private session.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 16669











11 Pages 16669-16670 redacted. Private session.
















Page 16671

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 8             I will re-start reading the decision of the Chamber.

 9             On the 23rd of January, 2012, Serbia requested protective

10     measures for Witness DFS-017.  Firstly, Serbia requests that the identity

11     of the witness be protected.  The request is denied.

12             The witness is a former BIA operative, and Serbia has not

13     sufficiently explained how public disclosure of his identity could give

14     rise to a potential threat to Serbia's security interests.

15             Secondly, Serbia requests that the witness be allowed to testify

16     in closed session.  Serbia argues that the witness will testify, and I

17     quote, "in relation to nature, type, and intensity of the contacts he

18     exchanged with Serbian MUP DB officials in the period from 1990 to 1995."

19             Another quote:

20             "Circumstances, facts, events and tasks pertaining to ..." and I

21     leave out a certain portion, "his employment within the Serbian DB."

22             And then last portion of the quote:

23             "His knowledge regarding the co-operation with the Serbian DB and

24     exchange of information and intelligence data and co-operation ..." and I

25     again leave out a certain portion, "with the accused Franko Simatovic."


Page 16672

 1             The witness will be heard in open session, and the parties and

 2     the witness are now instructed to request provisional private session

 3     when their questions or the witness's answers might reveal, first, the

 4     identity of a BIA source; second, the identity of a BIA operative; or

 5     third, a location used by the BIA.

 6             Following the testimony of Witness DFS-017, the Registry will

 7     provide Serbia with the portions of transcripts of the testimony

 8     provisionally held in private session in order for them to request

 9     necessary redactions.

10             And, Madam Registrar, you are hereby instructed to inform the

11     Republic of Serbia of this decision.

12             Mr. Petrovic, I -- you stated a minute ago that the witness is

13     not seeking protective measures on his own behalf.  Is that -- have you

14     verified that recently?

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I asked him about it

16     yesterday.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That's recent.

18             Then could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

19                           [The witness entered court]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning --

21             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Mr. Draca.

23             Before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of Procedure

24     and Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration that you'll speak

25     the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  The text is now


Page 16673

 1     handed out to you by the usher.

 2             Could you make that solemn declaration.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 4     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 5                           WITNESS:  ACO DRACA

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Draca.  Please be seated.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Draca, I'd like to inform you about a decision

10     the Chamber delivered only a few minutes ago, a decision related to

11     protective measures which were requested by the Republic of Serbia.

12             Republic of Serbia had requested that you would testify in closed

13     session and not under your own name but that your identity would be --

14     would not be disclosed to the public.  That request has been denied.  But

15     where the Chamber has decided that you'll be heard in open session,

16     you -- at the same time, your attention is drawn to the following.  That

17     when the questions or your answers might reveal, first, the identity of a

18     BIA source, or, second, the identity of a BIA operative, or, three, a

19     location used by the BIA, then we would turn into private session.  The

20     parties are instructed to notify the Chamber of such an event, and you

21     are under a similar instruction.  If your answers would reveal any of

22     this information, we would then go into private session so that that

23     information would not become public and that the Republic of Serbia later

24     has an opportunity to review those portions of the testimony in order to

25     further argue whether they should or should not necessarily be withheld


Page 16674

 1     from the public.

 2             Is that clear to you?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you'll now first be examined by Mr. Petrovic.

 5     Mr. Petrovic is, as you will be aware of, is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.

 6             Mr. Petrovic has informed us that there were no personal reasons

 7     for you to seek protective measures in view of your own personal

 8     circumstances.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Petrovic, please proceed.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12                           Examination by Mr. Petrovic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Draca.

14        A.   Good morning.

15        Q.   Could you first state your full name for the transcript, as well

16     as your place and date of birth.

17        A.   Aco Draca.  I was born in Sinj, the Republic of Croatia, on the

18     13th of December, 1958.

19        Q.   Mr. Draca, can you tell us what sort of educational background

20     you have.

21        A.   I completed the high school in Benkovac and went on to get a

22     degree in law from the Zagreb university.

23        Q.   Can you tell us where you first took employment and where.

24        A.   In December of 1981, in the State Security Service, in the Zagreb

25     centre.

Page 16675

 1        Q.   Can you tell us briefly what sort of duties you performed in your

 2     position for the state security in Zagreb.

 3        A.   At the start of my career, I was first involved in secret

 4     surveillance and documentation, and after a while I was transferred to

 5     operative duties.  I don't know if you're interested in the specific

 6     lines of work involved.

 7        Q.   If need be, I will put specific questions to you.

 8             Witness, were you, at some point, relocated from Zagreb?

 9        A.   Yes.  In 1986, at my own request, I was transferred to the Split

10     centre, the Zadar branch.

11        Q.   Can you tell us, the Zadar branch, under which structure did it

12     fall; and how many workers did it have?

13        A.   As I said, it was the centre in Split, and it was the largest

14     territorial centre in the former Yugoslavia, stretching all the way to

15     Rijeka in the north and Montenegro in the south.  There was Zadar,

16     Sibenik, and Dubrovnik branches.  I worked in Zadar.  There were nine

17     operatives in all, but we had other administrators, drivers, et cetera.

18        Q.   Witness, are you able to tell us what activities you carried out

19     when the political parties came to the political scene in the

20     Republic of Croatia in 1989/1990?

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers kindly pause between

22     question and answer.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for my professional engagements,

24     I worked --

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 16676

 1        Q.   Mr. Draca, just one moment.  His Honour would like to address

 2     you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the interpreters are asking whether you would

 4     make a pause between question and answer and then between answer and

 5     question again, otherwise they will not be able to keep up with your

 6     speed of speech.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My professional engagement had to

 9     do with counter-intelligence vis-à-vis eastern European intelligence

10     services.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Draca, at a certain point the political parties that were

13     coming into being in 1989 and 1990, did they become the subject of

14     interest of your service in Zadar?

15        A.   Yes.  In 1989, the multi-party system was introduced in the

16     socialist Republic of Croatia as in all the former -- republics of the

17     former SFRY, and then because of ethnic tensions that were becoming

18     evident in that area the Split centre decided that all the operatives

19     would exclusively cover the newly created parties in the sense of newly

20     established extremists and possible terrorists' acts, violence.  A large

21     number of parties was founded.  It was not even know what their

22     objectives were.  And if I may put it that way, it was just a democracy

23     that was coming into being, and all nine of us who were working neglected

24     all the other lines of work and covered exclusively the parties.

25        Q.   Mr. Draca, at this initial time when you received this

Page 16677

 1     instruction, were you covering political parties of all the peoples who

 2     were living in the territory that was covered by your branch?

 3        A.   Yes, that is correct.  Perhaps I didn't explain it in the best

 4     way.

 5             We didn't cover the political activities of those parties.  Only

 6     those activities of those parties that had to do with potential terrorism

 7     and interethnic strife.  There was only one party founded among the

 8     Serbian people, this is the Serbian Democratic Party, while the Croatian

 9     people had more parties, among whom the leading one was the Croatian

10     Democratic Union headed by Dr. Tudjman.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I also invite you to slow down slightly.  Take

12     a breath now and then so that the interpreters can do the same.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   Mr. Draca, at a certain point was this order changed as to the

16     activities that were to be monitored and of which parties?

17        A.   Yes.  I have to explain one more thing.  According to the law

18     that was in force at the time in Yugoslavia, there was some provisions

19     referred to in citing ethnic intolerance and racial intolerance, and in

20     the first orders the position of the SDB was to collect evidence, films,

21     to document the activities which could be processed pursuant to that

22     article of the criminal law.  A few days, perhaps ten to 15 days before

23     the first democratic elections in the Socialist Republic of Croatia,

24     which is what it was at the time, an order came from Zagreb clearly

25     stating that according to an order of the Central Committee of the

Page 16678

 1     Socialist Republic of Croatia the SDB must not put a hold to democratic

 2     processes in the country, and we were ordered to cease with these

 3     particular activities.

 4        Q.   Mr. Draca, was the activity suspended?  Actually, can you first

 5     tell us what happened to the documentation that was compiled while you

 6     were working on the political parties in the previous period.

 7        A.   We received an order from the Split centre to destroy the

 8     complete documentation which we organised on the same day.  This was

 9     quite voluminous paper documentation and all the audio and video material

10     from different meetings and encounters.  That order was specific in one

11     aspect as well, because it related exclusively to Croatian political

12     parties.  It did not refer to the Serbian Democratic Party.  We continued

13     to work on that with the explanation that extremism among the Serbian

14     people could contribute to a growth in the conflict.  And there was an

15     order to fully devote ourselves to our work on the SDS so that at one

16     point in time in Zadar we had a curious matter, where we were not working

17     on Croatian nationalism, whereas we were working on Serbian nationalism.

18     We had 12 actions in relation to people who were in the SDS.  The

19     curiosity was then that in that area the majority population was Croat.

20        Q.   Sir, if we can very briefly talk about the situation in Zadar at

21     the time and around the elections in 1990:  What was the situation, were

22     there any incidents, and what is the position of your service in relation

23     to those incidents?

24        A.   The security situation was quite bad, especially after the

25     elections which were won by the HDZ.  Up until that time there was a hope

Page 16679

 1     that the SDP, the former communists headed by the late President Racan,

 2     would win the elections.  They were much more mild.  However, when the

 3     HDZ won the elections, interethnic tensions occurred and there was even

 4     an occurrence of the first Serbian Guards being formed in the Serbian

 5     villages.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  If you take it sentence by sentence and then make a

 7     very short break, that certainly would assist.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that period, the first village

 9     guards were established at night in the Serbian villages exclusively.

10     The Zadar area covered three municipalities other than Zadar.  These were

11     Beograd na Moru, Benkovac, and Obrovac.  And Obrovac and Benkovac had a

12     Serbian majority population.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Sir --

15        A.   I just wanted to add that in that period the service monitored

16     everything that was happening in the field and was reporting back to

17     Split and Zagreb about these nightguard duties as well.  The JNA service

18     was functioning also at the time and had joint meetings with

19     representatives of the Yugoslav People's Army, or, rather, their security

20     department.  They undertook to go and visit those villages and to assure

21     the people that there was no need for any guards because they were still

22     guarantors of peace there.

23        Q.   Witness, we will come to these questions.  I would just like to

24     ask you to try to focus on what I'm asking you and to -- so that we could

25     present that the Trial Chamber in a brief and efficient manner.

Page 16680

 1             My question was: At this time in 1990 were there any incidents;

 2     and did your service interfere, did it react, to these incidents; and

 3     what was the information that it acquired?

 4        A.   There were incidents, especially after the parliamentary

 5     elections which were won by the HDZ.  Our direct instructions were, and

 6     it was partially a written instruction, not to interfere in the incidents

 7     but just to record them and to report on them.  Not interference meant

 8     that we should not gather material evidence in order that these

 9     proceedings would be processed and so that criminal charges could be

10     submitted.

11        Q.   Witness, sir, and what happened with the operatives in the DB of

12     Serb ethnicity and also in the Split Police at this time, after the

13     elections?

14        A.   Shortly after the elections, or after the authorities were

15     formed, the first multi-party authorities in Croatia, all the staff of DB

16     received a loyalty document which they were obliged to sign.  The

17     document didn't indicate anything in particular, its content was similar

18     to the ones we signed before about keeping state and professional

19     secrets, other than the letterhead was changed.  It was now the

20     chequer-board.

21             As for the other things, the -- the insignia, the first decision

22     was to change the insignia on the hat and the sleeve.  It was no longer

23     the star, but the chequer-board.  Some workers refused to that accept

24     that insignia and they would get fired.  In places like Knin and

25     Benkovac, the staff continued to work but with old insignia.

Page 16681

 1        Q.   In one sentence, are you able to tell us why Serb staff refused

 2     to accept new insignia for their uniforms?

 3        A.   Exclusively because the new insignia, in the form of the

 4     chequer-board, was almost identical to the insignia of the NDH from 1941,

 5     under whose administration over one million Serbs died in Croatia.  So

 6     this associated them to that period, because the Serb population had

 7     suffered terribly under those symbols.

 8        Q.   Witness, were there any new units being created at that time in

 9     the Croatian police; and if they were, who was joining those units?

10        A.   Yes.  There were new units being created.  The service's security

11     assessment at this point in time -- well, I cannot say the service, but

12     the Zadar branch, was that the establishment of these new units was

13     considerably contributing to the tensions, because the old cadre of the

14     public security service in the assessment of the Croatian leadership were

15     not capable of covering the complete territory.  President Tudjman made a

16     decision to form --

17             President Tudjman made a decision to form special reserve forces

18     of the police that would be mobilised exclusively from among the tough

19     Croatian ethnic men, a vast majority of whom had a criminal record, in

20     the area of Zadar where practically everybody knew each other.  It was

21     not a big place.  We knew exactly who these people were.  And this caused

22     a lot of opposition even among the Croatian public.  They got uniforms

23     without any particular training.  Camps were formed where these people

24     were accommodated.  Nobody knew what they were going to be used for, and

25     this gave rise to fear in Serbian villages that one day or one night they

Page 16682

 1     would barge in and take over the police stations that were in the areas

 2     where the Serbs were living.

 3        Q.   Witness, do you know about the 17th of August?  Was there some

 4     sort of meeting scheduled in Benkovac?  17th of August, 1990.

 5        A.   Yes.  This was in the outskirts of the village Bukovic, which is

 6     close to Benkovac.  A meeting was scheduled and it was held.

 7     Professor Jovan Raskovic, president of the Serbian Democratic Party,

 8     convened a meeting for that day.

 9        Q.   Witness, did anything happen on the eve of that meeting, on the

10     17th of August, 1990?

11        A.   Yes.  On the evening before the meeting, in the evening of the

12     16th, sometime after midnight, a special unit from Zadar came to

13     Benkovac, occupied the police station, broke down the door to the

14     warehouse, because it was locked, and seized all the reserve forces'

15     weapons, mostly long-barrelled weapons, automatic weapons, and they also

16     seized the active forces' weapons which were being held there in case of

17     some sort of emergency situation.

18             At that time, they arrested and took with them the duty policemen

19     whom they brought back the next day.  That person was part of the Zadar

20     police administration even though he was in Benkovac.

21        Q.   Sir, do you know if there were any plans to carry out similar

22     actions in other areas with Serb majority populations?

23        A.   Yes.  A similar action was supposed to be carried out in smaller

24     towns, like Obrovac, Gracac, and then Knin, as a larger centre, would

25     have its turn, when it was surrounded and its police stations were

Page 16683

 1     captured.

 2        Q.   Witness, how did you find out about the existence of these plans?

 3        A.   Because at that point in time I was still working, just like all

 4     of my colleagues were.  Nobody had left at that point.  We were coming to

 5     work.  From time to time, our manager would inform us about plans, even

 6     though I have to emphasise that this was a time when most Serbs were

 7     going on sick-leave, were avoiding going to work, because we kept

 8     receiving, persistently, orders, especially Serbs, to cover Serbian

 9     territories.  And so it would happen that you would submit a report as to

10     what happened over the past week in the Benkovac or Obrovac area, then

11     they - when I say "they," I'm thinking mostly of the leadership in Split

12     and -- in Zadar and Zagreb - then they would say that we were minimizing

13     Serbian activities.  They would be skeptical.

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can see the time.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Petrovic.  One second, please.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We will take a break.

18             Mr. Petrovic, until now we have heard a lot about the background,

19     but I don't know to what extent it was explored with the Prosecution

20     whether there is any disagreement, because I never felt that the

21     Prosecution took a position that there was not rising ethnic tensions and

22     administrative measures which might have considered to be against the

23     Serbs in that area at that point in time.

24             Perhaps you could use the break to find out.  Because let's get

25     as quickly as possible to what is the core of the testimony of this

Page 16684

 1     witness.  And I take it it's not just background information.

 2             We take a break, and we resume at a quarter to 11.00.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 10.19 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, you may proceed.  But could I urge you

 6     and the witness to make pauses between question and answer and answer and

 7     question.  And could I invite specifically the witness to slow down a bit

 8     because we would lose some of your words, which you would not wish to

 9     happen.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Mr. Draca, you have described the event in Benkovac of the

13     16th of August, 1990.  Can you please tell us how the population reacted

14     to the situation in the northern Dalmatia municipalities following these

15     events.  Was there something that happened out in the field?

16        A.   Yes.  This event drastically changed the security situation in

17     the field and heightened interethnic tensions.

18             On the following morning, of the 17th of August, at this rally

19     which had been scheduled earlier on, a great many citizens gathered

20     because they had heard that the Benkovac SUP had had its weapons seized.

21     Over 20.000 people attended the rally.  News circulated of the Croatian

22     police forces having used their helicopters to fly to Lika to seize

23     weapons from the Serbian municipalities there.  The information was

24     confirmed by the JNA, and this was the first time that the JNA intervened

25     and had its fighter planes up in the air to send the helicopters back.

Page 16685

 1     That was the first time that the population who gathered at the rally

 2     called on those present to issue them with weapons to protect themselves.

 3             The President of the SDS, Professor Jovan Raskovic, said at the

 4     rally that no weapons would be needed, that he would take it upon himself

 5     to speak to President Tudjman to prevent the conflict from escalating.

 6     Unfortunately, these words of reassurance didn't have the desired effect,

 7     and that very night roadblocks were erected with logs and all manner of

 8     other obstacles, severing all the various roads in the general area of

 9     Lika and the Cetina river.

10        Q.   Witness, who erected these roadblocks; and who manned them?

11        A.   It was the local villagers who did.  There were no roadblocks in

12     Benkovac, but there were in all the villages around it.  They mostly used

13     hunting weapons and some of the trophy weapons that people still had from

14     World War II.

15        Q.   One other question on this particular issue, Witness:  Can you

16     tell us, What was the Crystal Night in Zadar?

17        A.   We are skipping onwards to 1991 now.  I think it happened on the

18     4th of May.  A day or two earlier, a Croatian reserve policeman was

19     killed in the area between Benkovac and Zadar.  The villagers of the

20     village where the policeman hailed from organised a large protest rally

21     in Zadar, and more than 10.000 people headed to destroy, on a rampage, to

22     destroy everything that was owned by the Serbs - restaurants, bars.  Even

23     the open market stalls in Zadar that were owned by a Serb were destroyed.

24     Every Serb that they came across in Zadar that day was lynched.  People

25     were injured.  Quite a few stores and offices were set on fire, like, for

Page 16686

 1     instance, the Yugoslav Airlines offices as well as a number of other

 2     offices owned by companies from Belgrade who had their branches there.

 3     There were fires appearing across Zadar in some ten locations, and many

 4     people were out in the street.

 5        Q.   Witness, what happened to the Serb inhabitants in Zadar on the

 6     following day?

 7        A.   That night in Zadar was a very difficult one for the Serbs.

 8     Nobody could sleep lest somebody should barge in their homes.  And people

 9     would take off their name tags outside the front door so that nobody

10     would know that they were Serbs.  There were trucks pulling up in front

11     of many homes, and many Serb inhabitants of Zadar left the town that day

12     and headed for the areas where the majority of the Serbs lived.

13             To describe the situation to you clearly:  Zadar itself had some

14     100.000 inhabitants and of these, 25- to 30.000 were Serbs.  The column

15     that headed toward Benkovac and Knin of the Serbian refugees that day was

16     endless.  People were frightened, and they were frightened by that

17     Crystal Night in Zadar, which got its name from the glass that had been

18     smashed on the numerous window-panes and shop windows, and they were

19     afraid of what might become of them.  They were afraid to suffer that

20     same fate.

21        Q.   Witness, we mentioned the role of the JNA in 1990 and early 1991.

22             Can you tell us, in that early period of the conflict what sort

23     of reaction was there from the JNA with regard to the conflict and the

24     roadblocks?

25        A.   At the time, the Yugoslav People's Army wanted to enforce peace.

Page 16687

 1     At night they would not go to these roadblocks because they didn't want

 2     to heighten tensions, but in day-time they would go to Knin, Obrovac, and

 3     the nearby villages, and I mean the JNA officers.  They would be visiting

 4     more prominent members of those communities, trying to persuade them to

 5     remove these roadblocks, saying that they would be the ones to guarantee

 6     peace as the army.

 7             They did the same by visiting Croatian villages.  There were many

 8     villages with mixed population; half of them Serbs, half of them Croats.

 9     And then you would have JNA troops with armoured vehicles standing guard

10     round the clock to make sure that no individuals would be able to cause

11     any incidents that would inflame the situation.

12        Q.   These buffer zones between Croat and Serb villages that you've

13     just been referring to served, in fact, to form a line of separation

14     between Serb-inhabited areas and Croat-inhabited areas, if my

15     understanding is correct.

16        A.   Well, I can't really call it a line of separation.  There were

17     several APCs, several soldiers, mostly of the military police.  They

18     would go from village to village.  In some areas where relations were

19     good, they were more successful.  In others, less.  You can't call it a

20     line of separation, really.  There were literally a couple of patrols

21     trying to make sure that no incidents occur between the two peoples.

22        Q.   While the JNA was playing the role that you've just described,

23     were there instances of Croat villages being taken by Serb forces or Serb

24     villages being taken by Croat forces?  Or ...

25        A.    No.  Not in that period of time.  No areas were taken.  There

Page 16688

 1     were no major provocations or acts of aggression on either side.  There

 2     weren't even instances of either Croats or Serbs leaving these villages.

 3        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you know whether in the summer of 1991 there

 4     occurred a change in the personnel of the JNA commands and units in the

 5     area?

 6        A.   Yes.  There was a change in that the JNA was being understaffed

 7     because a great many officers and soldiers started leaving the JNA ranks

 8     and joining the Croatian side.  At this time, the national corps guard --

 9     National Guard Corps was being set up and the Croatian authorities were

10     calling on everyone to leave the JNA ranks and join the National Corps

11     Guard [as interpreted].  And these events came to a head in the summer of

12     1991.

13        Q.   In the summer of 1991, was there a shift in the attitude on the

14     part of the Croatian authorities towards the JNA?

15        A.   Yes, there was a major shift.  In July and especially in August,

16     after President Tudjman and the Croatian authorities called on the army

17     to withdraw from Croatian towns, the General Staff of the army rejected

18     the ultimatum and suggested that the political situation be resolved --

19     that the situation be resolved through political means.

20             I think that once a month the presidents of all the various

21     republics met in order to agree on the political future of the country.

22        Q.   Sorry, witness, I'm interrupting you, but could you focus on my

23     question.

24             In the area where you were, was there a shift in terms of how the

25     Croatian authorities regarded the JNA; and if so, what was it?

Page 16689

 1        A.   Yes.  An order was issued for the barracks to be placed under

 2     blockade.  I can't say that it was just the MUP and the National Guards

 3     Corps, but at any rate there was a call for the barracks to be placed

 4     under a blockade.  And when I say "under a blockade," that their water

 5     and electricity supplies should be severed and that they should be

 6     physically blocked as well.

 7        Q.   Can you tell us how many barracks there were in Zadar and what

 8     became of them in that period of time?

 9        A.   There were three major barracks in Zadar and several smaller

10     ones, and they were all placed under a blockade.

11        Q.   Witness, I'd like us to discuss now your particular movements at

12     the time.

13             Did there come a time when you came in touch with the MUP of the

14     SAO Krajina?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Can you tell us when this was and who with?

17        A.   It was in late Autumn or early winter of 1990.  My assumption at

18     the time was that we would all have to leave Zadar one day or another,

19     and I got in touch with the Benkovac Police Station and discussed the

20     possibility of me joining their ranks.

21        Q.   Did you meet Milan Martic at some point?

22        A.   Yes.  It was a briefing.  It was shortly after that first meeting

23     in the SUP of Benkovac.  The commander of the Benkovac SUP took me to

24     meet Milan Martic in Knin.

25        Q.   Did Martic tell you of some of his ideas about forming

Page 16690

 1     institutions in the area of Krajina at this point?

 2        A.   Yes.  It was a long discussion, more than an hour.  I knew that

 3     the area which was called the Serbian Autonomous District of Krajina at

 4     the time did not have a security infrastructure when it comes to state

 5     security.  It didn't have either the personnel, officers, equipment, or

 6     anything else, because in what was then the Socialist Republic of Croatia

 7     these regions were covered by centres located in major towns.  Martic did

 8     confirm to me that they did not have a security structure branch but that

 9     would the situation be developing in the direction of them having to

10     resist the new government in Zagreb, he would be planning to set up a

11     State Security Service for Krajina.

12        Q.   In the SAO Krajina, were there any state security professionals

13     from the pre-war service?

14        A.   No.  I should clarify this a bit perhaps.

15             The Kordun area was covered by Karlovac.  Banija was covered by

16     Sisak.  For instance, Knin was covered by Sibenik.  Benkovac and Obrovac

17     were covered by Zadar.  As I said, these small towns didn't have either

18     the personnel or the offices.  However, in the town of Knin there were

19     two operatives who would be visiting on occasion from Sibenik, but they

20     would be using the premises of the SUP of Knin.

21        Q.   Was a decision taken at some point to form a State Security

22     Service of the SAO Krajina?  And if so, do you know anything about it?

23        A.   Yes.  With the negative developments that followed - when I say

24     "negative," I mean in terms of peace - a body was established in Knin

25     called the Serb National Council which took care of negotiations and

Page 16691

 1     anything that had to do with the region.  They decided that the ministry

 2     of the police should be set up as part of the Serbian National Council.

 3     I don't think they called it ministry at the time at all.  It was called

 4     the Krajina Police.

 5             I was in touch with Martic at that point.  That was just on the

 6     new year's eve of 1990, because it was on the 5th of January that Martic

 7     officially issued the decision to set up the Krajina Police, so the

 8     meeting must have taken place ahead of the 5th of January, and he

 9     introduced me to Dusan Orlovic who he said was charged with running the

10     State Security Service in Krajina.

11        Q.   Witness, did Dusan Orlovic have any experience in the DB area of

12     work?

13        A.   No.  He had never worked at the police before or in the state

14     security.

15        Q.   At some point did Orlovic give you any assignments?

16        A.   At the beginning there were no particular tasks other than the

17     general tasks to compile data relating to the threats to the area around

18     Benkovac because of the special units of the Croatian MUP so that we

19     could alert the inhabitants of the villages in time to get ready for

20     defence or evacuation.

21             I must emphasise that in that period the JNA still existed.  And

22     when I say "ours," I mean our Serbian population in that area.  So our

23     hopes were that the army would secure peace.  But if this did not happen,

24     we had to prepare in a way, in the event of an attack, to be able to

25     inform the inhabitants of the village so that they could withdraw to be

Page 16692

 1     safe.  Because, at that time still there were no adequate weapons for

 2     them to be able to defend themselves.

 3        Q.   Witness, at some point was there a -- a branch of the state

 4     security that was established in Benkovac?

 5        A.   Yes, it was.  That's why I said earlier that these were initial

 6     assignments.  And then in late winter/early spring 1991, I was given an

 7     order to form an SDB branch in Benkovac, to pick my own personnel, seven

 8     to eight operatives, and he also informed me about the organisational

 9     chart.  He also said that the other areas in the Krajina area were also

10     setting up branches in the same way, and we all were linked to the Knin

11     centre, which at that point in time was under his leadership.

12        Q.   Witness, in that period, in 1991, what were the work conditions

13     in the State Security Service of the Krajina?

14        A.   Well, it was a total improvisation.  Literally.  There were no

15     typewriters, never mind any more advanced technical equipments or the

16     ability to be able to perform analysis or do any basic tasks.  The main

17     task then was also to gather information about threats to the inhabitants

18     of that area.

19        Q.   And, witness, are you aware as to how the state security of

20     Krajina was financed in that period?

21        A.   The Krajina State Security Service was being financed in the same

22     way as the public security service, in the identical way.  It was a

23     decision by the Serb National Council, or, rather, they appealed to the

24     citizens to help different individuals and businesses who wanted to give

25     donations.  All policemen, regardless of their rank, position, their

Page 16693

 1     work, they all were receiving an identical salary at that time from that

 2     same fund.

 3        Q.   And, sir, who led the State Security Service of Krajina in 1991?

 4        A.   Dusan Orlovic.

 5        Q.   Are you able to tell us - if you know - if the service received

 6     instructions and directives for its work in that period?  And if it did,

 7     who did they come from?

 8        A.   Judging by the meetings that I had with Orlovic in Knin quite

 9     frequently in that period, because there was no other communication, we

10     had to submit all our reports by messenger -- I'm sorry, can you please

11     repeat specifically what your question was.

12        Q.   Well, my question was this:  Who did the service in -- receive

13     its instructions and directives from in that period?  If it did.

14        A.   Orlovic informed me that it was exclusively from the

15     Serbian National Council.  But it was known that Martic also had a

16     certain influence over that.  At the time, the council changed its name

17     to the Council for National Defence, so it was the same thing.

18        Q.   Witness, in 1991, how did Milan Martic evaluate the work of the

19     Krajina State Security Service?

20        A.   In the beginning, the reporting to Martic indicated that he was

21     quite satisfied, but then as the year evolved he was less and less

22     satisfied.  We had a several -- several meetings where he objected to the

23     quality of the work, meaning that he was not satisfied.

24        Q.   Witness, did the SDB at any point cease to exist?  The SDB

25     Krajina.

Page 16694

 1        A.   Yes.  Martic made a decision to dissolve the service in late

 2     November/early December 1991.

 3        Q.   Was this decision implemented?

 4        A.   Yes, it was.

 5        Q.   I just have a few questions now about an earlier period and on a

 6     different topic, but I think this is a good place to put those questions

 7     to you.

 8             Do you know how the first weapons were received in Benkovac?  How

 9     and when.

10        A.   The first weapons that arrived in Benkovac - and I was personally

11     informed about this action, if I may call it like that - there was

12     considerable pressure from inhabitants of villages bordering on Croatian

13     villages towards Zadar.  The JNA at the time refused to distribute

14     weapons to arm and mobilise the village population.  Since Benkovac had a

15     TO but did not have its own depots, at a number of meetings in Knin and

16     written proposals to the Serb National Council it was indicated that the

17     population was threatened by the Croatian forces in these border areas,

18     so the council made a decision and from the TO Golubic depot in Knin they

19     took old weapons, carbines, old Russian weapons from World War II,

20     machine-guns, and so on.

21        Q.   Witness, you mentioned the TO Golubic depot.  What kind of

22     facility is this, this depot in Golubic?  Can you describe it?  Who ran

23     the facility, where is it located?

24        A.   The depot is close to the village of Golubic, some 15 kilometres

25     from Knin, in the direction of Bosnia.  This is believed to be one of the

Page 16695

 1     largest depots in the central Dalmatia area.  It's under the control of

 2     the JNA.  A smaller part of the depot was used by the TO.  This was a

 3     decision dating from the 1960s, when the TO system was established.  So a

 4     part of that depot was given for the use of the TO, and that depot mostly

 5     had old weapons to be used by the TO reserved forces.

 6        Q.   Witness, this -- these weapons, this initial quantity of weapons

 7     that arrived in Benkovac, how was this distributed?  Whom was it given

 8     to?

 9        A.   The local commune presidents came from those villages, and then

10     it was decided that the weapons should go there.  I don't know -- I know

11     the names of the villages.  I don't know if that means anything to the

12     Trial Chamber.  These people came.  Since no institution took it upon

13     itself to distribute the weaponry - there was no war yet, the JNA still

14     existed as a cohesive force in the field, although there were threats,

15     but there were no lines, there was no -- there were no clashes - so the

16     initial quantities of the weapons were distributed to representatives of

17     the local communes, at the entrance to Benkovac, in a pine forest,

18     according to a list which wasn't very long.  It was about ten rifles that

19     were issued per village.  The action was conducted by a representative --

20     or by the representative of the Knin TO in co-operation with the

21     commander of the Benkovac TO.

22        Q.   You mentioned the TO Benkovac representative.  Do you know the

23     name of that person?

24        A.   Yes.  It's Milan Dragisic.

25        Q.   Witness, do you know Zdravko Zecevic, a person by the name of

Page 16696

 1     Zdravko Zecevic?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Are you able to tell us, in 1991, whether this person had any

 4     duties that they were carrying out in the SAO Krajina area?

 5        A.   Zdravko Zecevic is from the same place that I am.  I know him

 6     from my childhood.

 7             In 1990 he joined the SDS party, and he was the first president

 8     of the Benkovac municipality because that party won the elections in

 9     Benkovac.  At the same time, he was the vice-president of the SDS party.

10     He was the vice-president to President Jovan Raskovic and a member of the

11     Serbian National Council.

12        Q.   In May 1991 --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question to clarify one of the

14     previous answers of the witness.

15             The decision to use some of the TO weaponry from the Golubic

16     depot and to distribute that, could you give that a date or an

17     approximately -- an approximate date?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  This was in early May 1991,

19     after the Zadar Crystal Night.  This was then approximately on the

20     10th of May, 1991.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   In 1991, Zecevic was the president of the Benkovac municipality.

25     Did Mr. Zecevic summon you to a meeting in May 1991?

Page 16697

 1        A.   Zecevic frequently called me to meetings that mostly -- because

 2     he personally believed that he completely was out of his depth in

 3     security areas.  He would often ask for my security assessments.  So I

 4     don't know which meeting you mean.  We had a lot of meetings in April as

 5     well.

 6        Q.   Did Mr. Zecevic call you to a meeting to meet some people who had

 7     arrived in the Krajina area in April or May 1991?  People from outside

 8     who were not from Benkovac or from the Krajina.

 9        A.   Ah, yes, now I know which meeting you mean now.  The meeting took

10     place in April, not in May.  He called me and said that he would like me

11     to attend the meeting with him because a particular man was coming about

12     whom he didn't know anything.  He asked me if I knew anything about him.

13     This was Captain Dragan that he was talking about.

14             At that point I didn't know of this man.  I met him for the first

15     time at this meeting with Zecevic.  This happened in early April 1991.

16        Q.   Why did Zecevic want you to see Captain Dragan?

17        A.   He told me himself that he felt on uncertain ground there, that

18     he didn't know this Captain Dragan.  He was told that this was a man who

19     was a high-ranking officer of the Australian army, with excellent

20     connections with many security companies in the United States, in

21     Ireland, throughout the world, so he didn't feel sure of himself, and he

22     suggested that I wait for this man together with him, who was coming upon

23     the recommendation of his friends from Belgrade and from the Serbian

24     diaspora, especially from the United States, and simply to help him to

25     evaluate this man as a person.

Page 16698

 1             To put it briefly, he was afraid that perhaps this was some kind

 2     of crook, because in that period people like that did come to the Krajina

 3     area an offer their services.

 4        Q.   Other than this meeting, this first meeting, were there any other

 5     meetings that you attended between Captain Dragan and Zecevic?

 6        A.   Yes.  After three to four weeks - this was already May - there

 7     was a second meeting.

 8        Q.   And who attended this second meeting?

 9        A.   Zecevic called me in the same way, and he said that Captain

10     Dragan was coming again but this time he was in the company of Martic.

11     He also insisted that I attend that meeting, and this did take place in

12     May 1991.

13        Q.   And at that time did Martic say anything about Captain Dragan?

14        A.   Yes.  He was quite taken by him.  He was full of praise for him.

15     He said that he was a man who could help, because a problem cropped up at

16     the time.  It was a process that took a while, and that was the departure

17     of all the Croatian cadres from all the Krajina police stations.  So

18     there was a need for somebody to make up those missing staff, and

19     Captain Dragan could do that.  Martic said that he could facilitate a

20     course of infantry training, and if any war broke out, this police force

21     would have basic police skills.  And Martic told Zecevic and myself that

22     Captain Dragan was going to be taking this course, that he was actually

23     going to be organising a course in Golubic.

24        Q.   If you know, why did Martic come to Zecevic to talk about the

25     topic of Captain Dragan and the setting up of this infantry course that

Page 16699

 1     you have just referred to?

 2        A.   Well, the first thing is that Martic, in that period, had a lot

 3     of respect for Zecevic as an intellectual, a very calm and capable man

 4     and politician.  Secondly, through Zecevic the first contact was

 5     established with Martic.  So I don't know exactly who these people are.

 6     Perhaps I knew their names at the time, but they didn't mean anything to

 7     me.  I don't know who it was who came to Zecevic with Captain Dragan and

 8     then told him about Martic.  So Martic knew Zecevic had a lot of

 9     connections in the Serbian diaspora, throughout the world, and he wanted

10     him to help in the sense of putting out the word in the world that

11     Captain Dragan was setting up this camp, that assistance was needed.

12        Q.   Witness, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but it says here in line

13     47 -- on page 47, line 6 and 7, that Zecevic set up the first contact

14     with Martic.

15             Is that what you said or did you say something else?

16        A.   Zecevic set up the first contact of Captain Dragan with Martic.

17        Q.   Yes, thank you.

18             Mr. Draca, what was your impression about Captain Dragan on the

19     basis of the contacts you had with him?

20        A.   Well, in the beginning it was completely positive.  He was a very

21     energetic man and he wasn't an extremist, which I liked.  He did not

22     mention any extremists or, if I may freely say so, pro-Chetnik attitudes.

23     But as time went by, my opinion changed.

24        Q.   Mr. Witness, you say that your opinion changed.  Why did you

25     change it?

Page 16700

 1        A.   Well, considering my job at the time, that is to say, collecting

 2     information, I was well aware of what was happening in the area of all

 3     villages in the vicinity of Benkovac and Knin.  And I noticed that

 4     Captain Dragan came on his own initiative, without agreements with anyone

 5     from the Serbian authorities, the Serbian National Council, or police, or

 6     the army.  He would come on his own.  He would hold rallies.  He would

 7     try to cause a rebellion of the people against the army.  He claimed that

 8     he was the only one who could save the Krajina and that he could only

 9     save Krajina one day when the JNA toppled, because that was what he

10     foresaw.  He would also slander the local politicians and he would cause

11     unrest in a way.

12             The simple-minded people who were afraid of a possible Croatian

13     attack did not see him in such a way.  He was accepted wherever he went.

14     There would be euphoria in every village.  I could feel, however, that

15     that was not good in the overall context for the unity of the people in

16     the area.  He was spending less and less time at the camp.

17             At one point, I even asked Orlovic whether he knew what was

18     happening and why, if his position was to train the police in the camp,

19     he wasn't doing his job.  And then - I may have missed to say this - he

20     brought another foreign citizen, whose name was Mark Lynch; he was an

21     Irishman.  He would most often leave him in the camp and he would wonder

22     around the area.

23             I also talked about this with Zecevic who told me that it would

24     be better not to be too harsh against him because all the Serbian

25     diaspora saw him as a man who could help us a lot and that it wouldn't be

Page 16701

 1     a good idea to criticise him publicly, and so I refrained from doing

 2     that.

 3        Q.   How did the political structures of Krajina react to this sort of

 4     Captain Dragan's conduct, as you have just described it for us?

 5        A.   At the very beginning, perhaps they were not aware of what I just

 6     told you or didn't observe that.  But he went a step further.  He began

 7     attending the sessions of the Serbian National Council though he was

 8     uninvited, and he would make suggestions and proposals which the

 9     president of the Serbian National Council, which was Milan Babic at the

10     time, did not like at all, and tension between of two of them began to

11     grow.

12        Q.   You said that he attended the sessions of the Serbian National

13     Council.  Did he mention any proposals; and what was the reaction to

14     them?

15        A.   In that period, he was very popular.  If he made a suggestion,

16     the members of the council did not feel like opposing him openly, except

17     for Babic and Martic.  Primarily Babic.  Later on Martic as well.

18             His proposals were impossible to achieve, they were not realistic

19     at the time, in an area where the authorities were improvised, where

20     everything was a matter of improvisation, so that none of his proposals

21     ever took off the ground.

22        Q.   Did, at any point, anyone prohibit Captain Dragan from attending

23     the sessions of the Serbian National Council?

24        A.   Yes.  His activity went too far when he made the proposal at one

25     of the meetings that he should take the control of all the

Page 16702

 1     Territorial Defence Staffs.  Babic expressed his dissatisfaction very

 2     harshly.  And later on, without Captain Dragan's knowledge, he prohibited

 3     access to the premises where the meetings of the Serbian National Council

 4     were held.  Captain Dragan did not know this.  He came to one of the

 5     meetings and the guards or, rather, the security sent him back, and he

 6     was greatly disappointed at that time with this particular move.

 7        Q.   What did Captain Dragan do after this incident?

 8        A.   Well, in several places in Knin he held -- I cannot call them

 9     rallies, but his public appearances were famous at the police station

10     where he expressed his dissatisfaction.  He said, I have come here to

11     defend, to help you, and you are chasing me away.  He was very

12     disappointed and he looked as if he was.

13             At that moment, I happened to with Dule Orlovic in the Knin SUP,

14     so at one point I saw him and he even addressed me at one moment and he

15     told me, I will leave the area and you will see what will follow when I

16     do that.  You cannot establish anything, you cannot achieve anything with

17     such authorities.  That was his thrust.  And as I heard from Orlovic a

18     few days later, he left Knin, indeed.  That could have been in early

19     August or thereabouts.

20        Q.   What year was that?

21        A.   1991.

22        Q.   Just two additional questions about this.

23             Where did the Serbian National Council hold its meetings and

24     sessions, if you know?

25        A.   I do.  The sessions were held in the citadel which dominated the

Page 16703

 1     town.  It's an old mediaeval citadel which is on a hill located above

 2     Knin.  Before the war and everything else, it housed the museum and other

 3     cultural institutions of the town of Knin.  However, the Serbian National

 4     Council was allowed to hold its sessions there.  It had it at its

 5     disposal.

 6        Q.   Do you know whether any police, military, or other unit was ever

 7     stationed at the citadel?

 8        A.   No, absolutely not.  Unless you mean that the security was quite

 9     strong, because there were rumours going around quite often that there

10     could be a helicopter attack carried out by the Croatian forces and that

11     they could arrest or kill all the members of the Serbian National

12     Council, so that at any given time there were between 15 or 20 soldiers

13     or policemen who were guarding the Serbian National Council.  They were

14     security for them.

15        Q.   Mr. Witness, did you at any point in 1991 hear that some

16     colleagues of yours from Serbia had arrived in Knin?

17        A.   Yes.  I heard that the first time in a public statement.  And

18     then Orlovic confirmed for me that that was really the case.

19        Q.   Did you hear -- can you tell us what you heard -- what did you

20     hear in the public, and what did Orlovic confirm to you later on?  What

21     did you hear?

22        A.   Well, you see, the population was mostly uneducated, so some

23     people said, Well, some guys from the Serbian DB arrived.  But we didn't

24     know their role or why they were here.  There was quite a lot of mystery

25     about that.

Page 16704

 1             When I heard this, I asked Orlovic whether it was true.  He

 2     confirmed for me that it was true and that this was a group of

 3     intelligence men.

 4        Q.   You say, Well, one could hear among the people.  What sort of an

 5     environment is that?  How many people live there?  How did the news

 6     spread?

 7        A.   This is an area that is sparsely populated.  For example, Knin is

 8     the biggest town.  There was no one who didn't know everyone else from

 9     the area.  So you would learn very quickly if anyone from outside arrived

10     there.  It was something that was very easy to notice.

11        Q.   Can you tell us whether you learned or heard the name or any

12     other particular information about the people who arrived in Knin from

13     Serbia?

14        A.   Not at first.  Later on, I heard from Orlovic that -- he just

15     told me Frenki.  He told me that he arrived at first as a journalist but

16     that very quickly that was -- I cannot say uncovered, but this is just

17     such an environment that it's impossible for anyone to say that he's a

18     journalist without the people learning after ten or 15 days who he really

19     was.

20        Q.   Was it mentioned where Frenki was accommodated?

21        A.   Also not at first.  But then later on I heard that he had a

22     conspiratorial apartment.

23        Q.   Did you meet Frenki?  And if so, when and how?

24        A.   Yes.  That was in mid-May.  I came to a meeting with Orlovic in

25     Knin.  As I didn't find him in official premises, they told me where he

Page 16705

 1     was.  It was a catering establishment.  I went there, and I found Orlovic

 2     with another man.  It turned out later on that this was Mr. Simatovic.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, I know what an apartment is.  I know

 4     what conspiracy is.  But I do not know what a conspiratorial apartment

 5     is.

 6             Could the witness explain what that exactly means.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say a conspiracy, but a

 8     conspiratorial apartment.  But maybe I expressed myself in a way that is

 9     a too professional.

10             A conspiratorial apartment is an apartment which someone rents

11     but the one who is hiring it -- or nobody else knows what it is used for.

12     So a type of safe house.  I'm not sure if I have managed to describe it

13     now.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think that's ...

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] If you allow me, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Why are such apartments rented within your service?  What are the

17     reasons for renting out such apartments?

18        A.   Such an apartment would be rented only in order to hold secret

19     meetings and have secret contacts with the sources and agents to provide

20     secret information when we didn't want anyone to see that we would meet

21     such persons there.

22        Q.   Mr. Witness, you say that you met Frenki at the restaurant in the

23     company of Dusan Orlovic.  Did you learn at that time or later the

24     reasons of Frenki's stay in Knin; and did you learn what were the duties

25     that he was discharging in the service for which he was working at the

Page 16706

 1     time?

 2        A.   Yes.  That's only natural, because I was a professional.  I

 3     worked for the service, and I was interested in this.  He conferred to me

 4     that he was an active employee of the security service of Serbia.  The

 5     conversation was quite long.  We talked about all manner of things,

 6     including how long each of us worked and what duties we were discharging.

 7     He told me that he worked with the American Group, as we used to call it.

 8     In order not to widen the topic too much, I can say as a sort of summary

 9     that he was primarily interested in the security situation in the area,

10     and also the fact that many members of an extremist Ustasha organisation

11     had appeared.  They used to be emigres, and in 1991 they returned to

12     Croatia.

13             Next, the reaction of the JNA, their relations with both ethnic

14     groups.  So everything that the Republic of Serbia was interested in at

15     the time and that could possibly have an impact on its own security

16     situation and the activities that Serbia would have to carry out, and it

17     would have to have the information in good time.

18             This is how I understood it all.

19        Q.   The information which, as you say, Frenki was interested in, did

20     he explain to you why he was there?  Did he explain what type of work --

21     what line of work of the service he was in charge of when he was sent to

22     Knin?

23        A.   Well, as colleagues who know how the State Security Service

24     operates, we could understand each other immediately.  This is typical

25     intelligence information, which he confirmed; that he needed intelligence

Page 16707

 1     from the Krajina area so that Belgrade could take a proper attitude, that

 2     is to say, the state leadership of Serbia, and that they could do that in

 3     good time.

 4        Q.   Were you in a position to receive some information from him?

 5        A.   Well, that was my intention.  I asked him if he could help us

 6     too.  As Orlovic had not worked for the State Security Service

 7     previously, he probably did not recognise that something could be

 8     received as a sort of feedback.  On that occasion, I asked him to submit

 9     information to us in good time, if he could, in case that the political

10     leadership in Belgrade obtained such information.  What we were primarily

11     interested in at the time was a possible Croatian attack on our area.

12        Q.   Mr. Witness, is it usual for the services for which you worked to

13     exchange information about subjects which are of interest for each of

14     such services?

15        A.   Yes.  In principle, that is correct.  But it depends from one

16     situation to another.  And when I say that, I primarily have in mind the

17     following.  When we sit down together, we do not exchange everything,

18     each one of us, but we narrow it down to what pertains to the specific

19     interests of each side at that particular moment.

20        Q.   Did you consider the representative of the intelligence service

21     of Serbia a representative of a friendly intelligence service?  And was

22     this the reason that you were willing to exchange information that Frenki

23     was interested in?

24        A.   Yes, that's absolutely correct.

25        Q.   Are you aware whether in addition to Frenki there were any other


Page 16708

 1     people from the state security of Serbia who were in the area of Knin at

 2     the time?

 3        A.   Yes.  There were two others.

 4        Q.   Do you know who these other two were?  And what were the reasons

 5     for their arrival to that particular area?

 6        A.   Well, at the time I didn't know at first.  But later on I learned

 7     they had the same duties but they were in charge of various areas.

 8             As for their names, I'm not sure I can say that directly, because

 9     they are members of the State Security Service of Serbia.  I'm not sure

10     if I can do that in open session.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask if we could please

12     move briefly into private session, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.


Page 16709

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   Witness, did Frenki or anyone else you mentioned ensure any sort

 3     of assistance in the form of equipment that would help you in your work?

 4        A.   No.  No sort of assistant, be it in money or in technical

 5     equipment.

 6             There was this one occasion where I asked for it, and

 7     Mr. Simatovic said, I am an intelligence officer and not a logistics man.

 8     And we were kind of joking about the whole situation.

 9        Q.   Did Frenki ever give you any sort of instructions, orders,

10     directions in 1991?

11        A.   No.  At no point did I receive instructions or even a piece of

12     advice, save for our informal meetings when we would exchange information

13     off the record, but that was just a discussion among colleagues.

14        Q.   Did Frenki try to influence in any way the structure of the

15     service or its method of work?

16        A.   No, absolutely not.

17        Q.   Did the service continue having inadequate equipment, personnel,

18     or methods of operation?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Did Frenki tell you anything about Captain Dragan at any point?

21        A.   Yes, he did.  But it was an hour into our first meeting that he

22     mentioned it, because we needed to take each other's measure.  He told me

23     at one point that I should pay special care about Captain Dragan and keep

24     an eye on his activities.  He didn't tell me why.  I felt relieved to

25     hear him say so because at last there was a man who shared my same view

Page 16710

 1     of Captain Dragan, because I knew that he was not the man he was

 2     purported to be, and Mr. Simatovic confirmed as much.  He told me, though

 3     I can't remember if he said specifically that, but I think he did, that

 4     the SDB of Serbia was conducting surveillance of him.

 5        Q.   You say that he told you to pay attention where he is concerned.

 6     What did he mean, and in what way did he say it?

 7        A.   Well, as I said a moment ago, that I should keep an eye on his

 8     activities that went outside the scope agreed with the Serb National

 9     Council and Milan Martic, i.e., his attempts to head the TO and to become

10     politically engaged in Krajina, his frequent tours accompanied by people

11     who came from Serbia whom he knew nothing of.

12        Q.   Did Frenki mention any foreigners coming along with

13     Captain Dragan?

14        A.   Yes, he did.  We discussed that.  I knew these foreigners.  They

15     were Mark Lynch, that I already mentioned, and one Robert from Germany.

16     I can't recall his last name.

17        Q.   What did Frenki want to know about these foreigners and why?  If

18     you can explain that.

19        A.   I understood his interest to be, in fact, mistrust of these

20     individuals; how did they come to be with Captain Dragan, where did they

21     acquire their combat skills, were they members of any terrorist groups.

22     They were even suspicions entertained for a while that Mark used to be a

23     member of the IRA, although there were no -- there was no proof to that

24     effect.

25             So our discussions boiled down to an exchange of information.  I

Page 16711

 1     would give him my assessment of these individuals, and we were discussing

 2     as to the ways in which we would be able to verify the information in any

 3     given time.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one additional question in order to

 5     better understand the evidence.

 6             Witness, you said that you should keep an eye on the activities

 7     that went outside the scope agreed with the Serb National Council and

 8     Milan Martic.

 9             Now, you've told us a lot earlier about Captain Dragan, who liked

10     him, and whether he had access to ... but what now was exactly agreed

11     between the Serb National Council and Milan Martic on the activities of

12     Captain Dragan?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was one of the issues that

14     Martic told us about at this meeting with Zecevic.  Martic said that he

15     had proposed to the Serb National Council, which agreed, that

16     Captain Dragan should, with regard to the Golubic centre which had been

17     working from earlier on, August of 1991, put together a serious infantry

18     course.  And my understanding was that this was to be the context of his

19     activities, that he should organise and conduct training of police

20     personnel.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that is what you observed him doing?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I myself was never in the

23     camp in Golubic in that period of time.  So, no.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  But did he conduct training of police personnel in

25     the camp, as far as you knew?

Page 16712

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he did.  But when I said that

 2     it went out of that context or scope, I meant that he was less and less

 3     involved in the training of policemen and more and more engaged in his

 4     various travels across the area.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  When did training of police personnel start

 6     under his authority, under his supervision?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was in the spring of 1991.  I

 8     can't recall the exact date.

 9             To put it simply, I wasn't involved in that.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You earlier said that the Golubic centre had been

11     working from earlier on.  And then you said:

12             "... August of 1991, put together a serious infantry course."

13             What do you intend to say:  that Captain Dragan took

14     responsibility in August of 1991 or that the centre had been working from

15     August 1991?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said August of 1990.  I may have

17     misspoken.

18             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... then that's --

19     that is then hereby corrected.

20             How did he get his people to be trained?  I mean, who sent them

21     to him?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Following tensions and the

23     incidents of August 1990 that I related, it so happened that the Croatian

24     cadres in the police stations of Lika, Kordun, Knin, et cetera, were

25     leaving their posts, and these stations remained vastly understaffed.

Page 16713

 1     And then the Serb National Council, or Martic, or whoever it was, I

 2     wasn't present, decided that a reserve police force should be put

 3     together which should be trained at the Golubic centre in order to make

 4     up for the missing personnel.

 5             However, since a great many people were still on the JNA

 6     mobilisation lists, the people who were recruited were mostly volunteers.

 7     There were many instances of wounds having been self-inflicted due to

 8     lack of experience, et cetera.  And Martic welcomed Captain Dragan to

 9     train these men.  But that happened only as of April 1991.  Up until that

10     point, the camp had been run independently with the personnel that was

11     available.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And who finally selected those to be sent for

13     training?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The leadership of the SUP of Knin

15     headed by Martic.  They were the sole ones to select the personnel.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

17             Mr. Petrovic, I had to ask these questions before, because

18     earlier, when speaking about Captain Dragan, who felt what and who had

19     what kind of attitude, but the facts on what happened were not dealt

20     with, with the witness.

21             That is clear now.

22             I suggest that we take a break at this moment, that we resume at

23     12.30.

24                           --- Recess taken at 12.03 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.

Page 16714

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, are you ready to proceed?

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Mr. Witness, during your encounter with Frenki, did you observe

 4     him carrying a bag of sorts?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Can you tell us what you observed, and how?

 7        A.   I observed a bag, the sort that we used during my career in the

 8     SDB, which camouflaged a camera in its interior.  And I observed him

 9     carrying a bag that he would use to take photos of people and/or

10     buildings.  This was a way of conducting surveillance and documenting the

11     surroundings.

12        Q.   And how did you recognise it?  Does it have a peculiar

13     appearance?

14        A.   Well, the fact of the matter is that we all carried the same sort

15     of bag for those purposes, because the central service in Belgrade

16     produced such bags for all the services across the republics.  And I

17     recognised that this was the bag.  Even the colour matched.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'd like us to look

19     at 2D146, which is the first in a series of photographs.

20             2D -- I'm sorry, 2D1046; my mistake.  I apologise.

21        Q.   Witness, we are about to see on our screens the photographs that

22     you brought along when you came to The Hague.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can it be rotated, please.

24        Q.   Can you tell us briefly who we can see on the right-hand side;

25     how the photograph came to be taken; and what is it that we see on the

Page 16715

 1     shoulder of the person on the right-hand side?

 2        A.   That's me carrying a -- or wearing a white T-shirt.  Next to me

 3     is a colleague of mine.  The photograph was made out of that same bag

 4     that I have on my shoulder.  And apart from the building, also the team I

 5     worked with was photographed.  In that way it was taken out from the

 6     whole batch of photographs and set aside.

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now see the second

 8     photograph of the exhibit.

 9        Q.   Can you tell us how it came to be taken?

10        A.   The person with -- with the glasses is the subject of the

11     photograph; however, next to him a colleague of mine was also

12     photographed, and that's why it was set aside, for security reasons.

13             And you can see how there is no regular format that has been

14     prescribed for these photographs.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, could I seek clarification of one of

16     the previous answers.

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Of course, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You said, witness, on the previous photograph:

19     "That's me carrying -- or wearing a white T-shirt.  Next to me is a

20     colleague.  The photograph was made out of that same bag that I have on

21     my shoulders."

22             I can imagine that it's a similar bag, but the same bag sounds a

23     bit strange to me, because how could you take a photograph of yourself?

24             Did you mean a similar bag?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I meant a similar bag.  I may

Page 16716

 1     have expressed myself awkwardly.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, who took the photograph and what was the

 3     purpose of that first photograph?  I'm not talking about the second one.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This photograph, as was the case

 5     with the previous one, were taken during one and the same operation.  We

 6     would all be heading for that one operation and take photographs.  Should

 7     any of our colleagues appear on the photographs taken, such photographs

 8     are destroyed.  That's why I kept this one for myself.

 9             So we have several teams of operatives taking photographs of the

10     subject surveilled.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  But on the previous photograph, the first one that

12     was shown, what was the object?

13             Perhaps we could show it.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's quite natural in that

15     sort of business, since you actually take photographs by pressing a

16     button on the bag, it is it only natural that at times you wouldn't see

17     the subject, really.  And in this particular photograph the subject was

18     not included in the -- in the photo.  It's not there.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  It would just have done if you'd say

20     it's not on the photograph.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Can the witness be given a pen to mark on this photograph the bag

24     slung across his shoulder so that we can see it more clearly.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 16717

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] If we turn to the next photograph,

 3     I'm afraid we're going to lose the marking, so can we save this as a

 4     Defence exhibit, please.

 5             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Madam Registrar,

 6     the number would be ...

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be D670, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 9             Please proceed.  And that's the marked copy of the photograph.

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11             Can we now look at the third photograph of the set.

12             Can we have the third photograph?

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Photograph number 3.

15        Q.   Witness, what does the -- who does the photograph show; and what

16     is that across the person's shoulder?

17        A.   That's me.  When we were given this sort of bag, we went out to

18     test them out, to see what sort of photographs we would get, and we used

19     the same bags as we used in the previous photographs.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can 2D --

22             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Petrovic, is

23     there any issue in the way in which someone would use a hidden camera,

24     whether it was in a bag or whether it was on his right shoulder or on his

25     left shoulder, or ... I mean, is there any issue about that?  It seems

Page 16718

 1     that there may be an issue about other matters, but is there any issue

 2     about this?

 3             Could I ask, Mr. Farr:  Colour of the bag; next, how -- whether

 4     it could take ten pictures a minute or 20 or 30.

 5             MR. FARR:  There's -- there's no dispute about those matters,

 6     Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, let's focus on what really seems to be

 8     important.  Unless, but then come to that point as quickly as you can,

 9     that the bag is apparently and the camera is the important thing rather

10     than other matters that may be important in this context.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you allow me, one

12     point.

13             There is a dispute among the sides as to what sort of bag

14     Mr. Simatovic had when he was in Knin and what it contained, but I only

15     have a question or two left on this issue.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I can imagine that there is a matter about the bag

17     and what is in there.  But assuming what -- which apparently is the

18     position of the -- of the Defence, that it's cameras rather than anything

19     else then, then, of course, the colour, the size, whether it's on the

20     right shoulder, the left shoulder, whether it's held with the hands,

21     or ... seems to be totally irrelevant, because even if persons would have

22     had cameras in their bags, that doesn't answer the question whether in

23     the bag used by Mr. Simatovic, as I now understand is the issue, whether

24     there was a camera in there, yes or no.  That's apparently -- if that's

25     an issue, then let's focus what is in the bag, rather than how it

Page 16719

 1     functions if there's a camera in it.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Witness, the bag you saw at Mr. Simatovic's, is it the same bag

 5     that we were able to see in these photographs?

 6        A.   It was similar.

 7        Q.   When this bag contains a camera and the necessary equipment, can

 8     anything else fit into that bag?

 9        A.   No.  Because you have the camera within and the mechanism for

10     taking shots.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can this -- these photographs

12     please be admitted.  And then I will move on to a different subject.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, I don't know whether they have been

14     uploaded as separate files or not.  Could you assign a number or numbers.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 2D1046 will receive number D671,

16     Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19             Can the witness be shown document 2D536.2.

20        Q.   Witness, can you tell us briefly what sort of document this is.

21        A.   This is one of the reports of the then-State Security Service of

22     the SAO Krajina.

23        Q.   Have a look at the document and tell me if you saw back in 1991

24     this document or similar documents and if you know who these documents

25     were sent to.

Page 16720

 1        A.   Based on the format of the document, I can tell you that this is

 2     a report that the Knin centre, i.e., Dusan Orlovic or one of his

 3     associates in Knin, made to give an outline of current issues that were

 4     sent to the Serb National Council and Milan Martic.

 5        Q.   Do you know if this document was sent to anyone else?

 6        A.   No.

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can the document be admitted as a

 8     Defence exhibit, please.

 9             MR. FARR:  No objection, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just try to understand.

11             Are we supposed just to look at the format?  Is that what you

12     present it for, Mr. Petrovic?

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, both the format and

14     the contents.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Although no question has been -- yes, let me

16     see ...

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  But my next

18     questions will perhaps make the issue quite clear when it comes to this

19     document and the others to follow.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If it's about content, I have had no time to

21     even look at the content and no questions were asked about it.  So

22     there's no objection.  But we'll see, then, in a minute, whether it

23     becomes clear.

24             And if we have to look at the content, then it's better to draw

25     our attention to it now so that for the next documents and the next

Page 16721

 1     questions that we know what was relevant in this document.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Witness, what sort of information does a document such as this

 5     one we have on our screens contain?

 6        A.   This document is, as its title suggests, a summary of current

 7     information.  However, since it is a report made by the State Security

 8     Service, i.e., containing information gathered from associates,

 9     collaborators in a sensitive way, from sources even political, we can say

10     that this was a fully confidential document that was only for the eyes of

11     Milan Martic and the Serb National Council.

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now show P2670, please.

13        Q.   Witness, look at this document.  It's a two-page document.  Tell

14     me when you've read the first page and then we'll move on to the second.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] If Their Honours have read this

16     page, can we have the second page, please.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

18             Yes.

19             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] May I, Your Honour?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Witness, can you tell us what sort of document this is and who

23     made it?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr.

25             MR. FARR:  The objection is to foundation.  We've had no

Page 16722

 1     information that would indicate that this witness would be able to

 2     recognise this kind of document.  It's a different kind of document than

 3     the previous one, which might plausibly have had knowledge of.  But until

 4     foundation has been laid, I think that question is inappropriate.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you meet the concerns of Mr. Farr,

 6     Mr. Petrovic.

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I hope, Your Honours.

 8        Q.   Mr. Witness, did you come across such documents in 1991 in the

 9     Krajina?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Can you tell us what sort of a document this is and who drew it

12     up?

13        A.   By contrast with the previous document, this is a document issued

14     by the Territorial Defence Staff.  It was produced on the basis of the

15     amalgamated reports from the TO Staffs in smaller towns.  They sent it to

16     the staff in Knin to prepare something that I would call the daily

17     report.

18             I could see such reports at the time for the reason that local

19     commander of the TO staff in Benkovac used to submit or, rather, forward

20     such a report to me on a daily basis.

21             We considered such reports fully public documents.  For example,

22     they were given to the media as a sort of survey.  There was nothing

23     secret whatsoever to be found in them.

24        Q.   What sort of information did such reports contain?

25        A.   Well, I can just see the second page now and not the first one,

Page 16723

 1     but I can tell you off the top of my head.  That was a chronology of

 2     events, describing incidents on the ground, and the TO from Knin would

 3     even remove some items that it did not consider to be important.  So they

 4     would make a sort of summary or an overview of what was happening in the

 5     entire territory.

 6        Q.   You said that the documents contained the events listed in the

 7     chronological order, and you also mentioned the media.  Do you know who

 8     it was from the media who received such reports in the Benkovac area

 9     where you worked?

10        A.   Well, every journalist wanted to get it, but the journalists of

11     the then-Politika Ekspres from Belgrade is the one who was the most

12     persistent and who regularly received such reports.  They were sometimes

13     even addressed to him.

14        Q.   Can you tell us what was the name of the person in Benkovac who

15     used to receive these reports?

16        A.   Yes.  I remember.  The name of this journalist was

17     Svetozar Borak.

18        Q.   Mr. Witness, the list of those who received the report includes

19     Frenki as the fifth addressee.  Do you know why this report was submitted

20     to Frenki, among others?

21        A.   Well, specifically, I have never seen this report, when I was

22     down there, with these addressees listed.  But I suppose that when

23     Mr. Dragisic submitted this to Frenki, the purpose was for him to be

24     informed on a daily basis, because he told us that one of his tasks

25     during his stay in the area of Knin was to collect information on a daily

Page 16724

 1     basis.  And as this person was a close relative to Martic, I suppose that

 2     Martic told Dragisic that he should provide this type of information to

 3     Frenki.

 4        Q.   Mr. Witness, I will now ask for document 2D559 to be shown on the

 5     screen.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] 2D559.2, please.

 7        Q.   Mr. Witness, please have a look at this report.

 8             Look at the parties that it was sent to, and Frenki is not one of

 9     these.  And it's a report dated the 19th of September, 1991.

10             Do you know why this was so?

11        A.   The answer is very simple.  For a month already, Frenki, or,

12     rather, Mr. Simatovic was not in that area any longer.

13        Q.   Do you know when Franko Simatovic left Knin in 1991?

14        A.   I cannot tell you the exact date, but I think that it was the

15     first half of August.  Certainly approximately at that time, in 1991.

16        Q.   In Knin, Benkovac, or anywhere else in SAO Krajina in 1991 or

17     later, did you ever hear that Franko Simatovic managed the camp in

18     Golubic or that he was in charge of some military operations in the

19     territory of SAO Krajina in 1991?

20        A.   All the relevant factors, such as the SUP Knin, the TO, the

21     politicians, I know that he did not.  However, there was a phenomenon.

22     Among the people it was rumoured that there were people from Serbia

23     around.  You know how it is, in a moment of fear, fear from attack,

24     people wished for someone important to show up, some kind of units or the

25     JNA, anyone who would protect or train the people.  So that it did happen

Page 16725

 1     that rumours went about.  And even then people were not specifically

 2     named.  They wouldn't say Mr. Simatovic, but they would say that people

 3     from Serbia were in charge of the camp.  But we know for sure that this

 4     is not true.

 5             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would tender

 6     2D536.2 and 2D559.2.

 7             MR. FARR:  No objection to either document, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the numbers would be ...

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 2D536.2 will receive number D672,

10     Your Honours.  And document 2D559.2 will receive number D673,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Both are admitted into evidence.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Witness, you told us earlier today that in Zadar the barracks

15     were blocked.  Were there any activities carried out at any point to lift

16     the blockade of the barracks?

17        A.   Yes.  The Yugoslav People's Army, after unsuccessful

18     negotiations, in early October, I think on the 2nd or 3rd October,

19     carried out a widespread activity of surrounding Zadar and moving in on

20     Zadar, and I think that on the 4th of October or thereabouts, because of

21     its overwhelming strength in terms of numbers, the forces in Zadar

22     declared a truce and allowed the lifting of the blockade of the barracks.

23     And after that the JNA did not enter the town.

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please show the witness

25     2D190.2.

Page 16726

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  2D192.2.

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] This is the command of -- the

 3     commander of the Knin Corps to attack Zadar.  The document is quite long,

 4     and we received it from the Government of the Republic of Croatia.

 5             I would ask first that page 1 be shown on the screen.

 6             I'm interested in item 4, which is on page 2 in the B/C/S version

 7     of this document, and in English it begins on page 2 and then continues

 8     on page 3.

 9             In item number 4, it is said:

10             "I have decided in co-ordinated action with the blocked forces of

11     the Zadar garrison," and then the units are listed, "I will continue the

12     defence and begin -- launch an attack with the corps main body on the

13     following axis ..."

14             Was this attack ever launched as it is formulated in this

15     document, along the axis Knin-Benkovac-Zadar, as far as you know?

16        A.   Yes, I know.  It was exactly along this route, this axis, that

17     they launched it.

18        Q.   Mr. Witness, in this offensive operation against Zadar launched

19     in October 1991, was the village Skabrnja, which is located not far from

20     the road which is mentioned here, taken?

21        A.   No.

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would tender this

23     document into evidence as a Defence exhibit.

24             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, we have no objection in principle, but

25     the English translation is missing, it looks like, the stamp of the

Page 16727

 1     9th Corps and then the handwritten name "Babic" that appears on the

 2     original.  So just an objection pending those corrections to the

 3     translation.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have a look at the portion you drew our

 5     attention to at the top --

 6             MR. FARR:  The top of the first page.  If we could have the top

 7     of the first page in both languages, I think it will be clear.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, it looks as if the stamp is not

 9     translated and that the handwriting -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

11     continues] ... Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes?

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I can see it myself now,

14     Your Honour.  It really has not been translated.  And I wish to apologise

15     to everyone for this.  We shall send the translation for these

16     corrections to be added, then we will uploaded the corrected version, and

17     then we will ask for the document to be admitted.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We MFI it for this very moment.

19             Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 2D192.2 will receive number D674,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Witness, you told us that in the offensive operation on Zadar

25     the village of Skabrnja was not taken.  Is any road going close to the

Page 16728

 1     village and were there any problems with this road after this lifting of

 2     the blockade in Zadar in early October 1991?

 3        A.   Yes.  Right next to the Skabrnja village, the artery road

 4     Benkovac-Zadar stretches, and the Yugoslav People's Army found it to be

 5     of strategic importance because it leads to the Zemunik airport.  It is

 6     the military and civilian airports, they are one next to the other, and

 7     so the road goes between the military and the civilian airports and it

 8     was necessary for logistics and transportation and everything else.

 9     There were problems because there were continuous provocations from

10     Skabrnja.  There was a shooting at all the vehicles which were moving

11     along this road, both military and civilian vehicles.

12             At some point after the attack was launched and after the truce

13     was declared so that the blockade would be lifted and so that the army

14     would leave with its forces and go out of Zadar, there were no

15     provocations.  But very soon after that they were continued.  I know this

16     because I attended a number of meetings at the garrison or, rather, at

17     the command of the 180th Brigade in Benkovac that the talks and

18     negotiations with the command of Skabrnja were unsuccessful.  They were

19     warned against doing that.

20        Q.   Mr. Witness, what was the position of the JNA leaders in the area

21     as regards the resolution of the problem with Skabrnja?  Are you aware of

22     that?

23        A.   Yes, I am.  The Yugoslav People's Army never engaged its forces

24     if there was no need.  If they did, the goal was to lift the blockade of

25     the barracks in Zadar.  Skabrnja was on the left from this road, and


Page 16729

 1     there was no need for any operations against the village.  The position

 2     of the brigade command was, generally speaking, as Skabrnja is quite a

 3     large village, with between two and a half and 3.000 inhabitants or,

 4     rather, members of the National Guard Corps and policemen, so they

 5     believed that there would be huge casualties, and the village was not

 6     attacked during this period.

 7        Q.   Mr. Witness, were you present at any meeting where the resolution

 8     of the Skabrnja problem was discussed?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Can you tell us where and who attended this meeting.

11        A.   We discussed that at the brigade command.  But I would ask if we

12     could move onto the private session because of people who are living in

13     Belgrade today and they do not have much to do with all this but we need

14     to protect their integrity.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we could briefly

16     move into private session, please.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me have a look.

18             We move into private session.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 16730











11 Page 16730 redacted. Private session.















Page 16731

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

25             Mr. Petrovic.


Page 16732

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   Mr. Witness, did anyone attend the meeting out of the command of

 3     the Knin Corps?  And I mean of some of the lowest officers.

 4        A.   Yes.  The Chief of Staff of the Knin Corps attended the meeting,

 5     Colonel Mladic, unbeknownst to us.  It hadn't been announced.

 6        Q.   Witness, of the most senior officers of the

 7     Benkovac 180th Brigade, was anybody in attendance?

 8        A.   Yes.  The commander, the Chief of Staff, chief of security of the

 9     brigade.

10        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you recall what Colonel Mladic had to say at this

11     particular meeting about the situation in Skabrnja?

12        A.   Colonel Mladic said that strategically speaking it was impossible

13     to have the Benkovac-Zemunik airport stretch of the road unserviceable

14     and that the army had to react.

15             This lasted long, these negotiations.  They did everything to

16     have the check-points on the perimitre of Skabrnja were there were

17     snipers removed, but since they failed, the next morning they sent out a

18     contingent of forces with infantry and tanks to form a perimitre around

19     Skabrnja simply to make a show of force.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown 5596, a

21     65 ter document, page 349 in B/C/S and 348 in the English translation.

22     It's a page out of Mladic's diary, the tasks as noted down on the

23     17th of November, 1991.

24             349 in B/C/S, and 348 in English.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 16733

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar informs me that there are five

 2     documents under this number, Mr. Petrovic.  Could you assist in ...

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't think that

 4     the English translation is in dispute.  And we have the typed-up version

 5     of the B/C/S.  But this doesn't seem to be helpful.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, whether translations are in dispute,

 7     Madam Registrar has difficulties in identifying the document you'd like

 8     to have on the screen.

 9             Or is this the one you'd like to have on the screen?

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's not the

11     document.  ERN number is 0668-2799 in English.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it looks as if this is the one, if I look at

13     the ERN number, which matches with what you mentioned, isn't it?

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's the first page,

15     and I need page 348 of the document.

16             This is the page, Your Honours.

17             THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... we need the

18     number for B/C/S version, please.

19             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] In the B/C/S it's 349.

20             THE REGISTRAR: [Overlapping speakers] ...

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter 5596.  0668-2799 is the

22     first page.

23             THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... [Overlapping

24     speakers] ... 2799, or 2799/B/C/S?

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] /B/C/S, yes.

Page 16734

 1             Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             Can we see the bottom part of the page for Their Honours.  That's

 3     what I'm interested in.

 4        Q.   Mr. Witness, among the tasks for the 17th of November, the diary

 5     reads:

 6             "180th Brigade should move the armoured battalion a little

 7     towards Skabrnja and Nadin - to erase that."

 8             In your presence, was a task formulated to the commander of the

 9     180th Brigade in these same terms that we can read in the diary?

10        A.   In front of us, and we were civilians after all, Colonel Mladic

11     did not relate any details.  However, he did use this same term to shake

12     up a bit, to move the battalion, to shake it up a bit.  And my

13     understanding was that the intention was to frighten them a bit.

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 357 of the

15     same document, the B/C/S version; and page 356 of the English.  It's an

16     entry made on that same day, which reads:

17             "Meeting with the commander.  To be completed in combat: Properly

18     mop up the sectors of Nadin, Skabrnja.  (If necessary work for two days)

19     The Chief of Staff of the 180th Brigade made preparations."

20             And it reads:

21             "NB to dispatch the VP company in BOVs ..."

22             Witness, can you tell us what the abbreviations in this last line

23     are?

24        A.   NB stands for the chief of security.  VP stands for the military

25     police, so it should dispatch military police.  And BOV is short for

Page 16735

 1     armed combat vehicle.

 2        Q.   Witness, if you know, did there follow any combat activities in

 3     the Skabrnja area the following day?

 4        A.   Yes.  In the early morning hours of the 18th.

 5        Q.   Do you know how the conflict around Skabrnja broke out?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, I'm a bit confused.  We started with a

 7     document dated the 4th of October of a meeting where, in item number 4,

 8     the attack was announced.  And we are now somewhere in late November.

 9     And the witnesses says how he understood the language of Mr. Mladic.

10     Shouldn't we first establish whether the witness attended the meetings

11     which are covered six weeks later by the -- and because he interprets,

12     apparently on the basis of -- of the language used by Mr. Mladic, that to

13     be erased means to frighten people.

14             What's the basis for that?  Was he present?  Was he not present?

15     What explains -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

16             MR PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

17             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] -- I can give you my understanding

19     of the evidence given by the witness.

20             The document, 2D192.2, which is about the attack on Zadar and the

21     lifting of the blockade --

22             MR. FARR: [Previous translation continues] ... Your Honour, I --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that is -- Mr. Petrovic has not said anything

24     more as but what I find already on page 73, that is, he referred to

25     2D192.2, and that it is about the attack launched along the axis

Page 16736

 1     Knin-Benkovac-Zadar.  That's clear.  That's what he said until now.

 2             Mr. Petrovic is not going to give evidence, and he knows that.

 3     But I'd like to -- if we move to other meetings, I'd like to know what

 4     the source of knowledge of this witness is.  If he starts interpreting

 5     the notebooks of Mr. Mladic, then it should be clear on what basis he

 6     does that - because he was present or because he has studied them for

 7     ages and has made a linguistic comparison of the language used.

 8             But I'd like you to ask that the witness if you want us to better

 9     understand what the evidence is.  If you leave it, you are now aware that

10     these questions came to my mind.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I based my questions

12     on his attendance at the meeting a day before Skabrnja, which we

13     discussed, where those individuals who the witness wanted to name in

14     private session were present.  And, as I understand it, the meeting took

15     place a day before the action on Skabrnja where Mladic presented his view

16     of the situation.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll have a further look at those -- at that

18     document.

19             Meanwhile, you may proceed.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Mr. Witness, you said that the following day there followed a

22     conflict in Skabrnja.  To the best of your knowledge, how did the

23     conflict break out?  How did the clashes break out?

24        A.   To explain this, I have to go back to the meeting of the day

25     before, the 17th of November.  There were no special secrets there.

Page 16737

 1     Representatives of the War Staff in Benkovac, there was the briefing of

 2     the 180th Brigade.  We had the chief of the TO staff, the president of

 3     the municipality, the president of the Executive Board, i.e., government,

 4     and I as the head of state security.

 5             When Mladic said that this was unacceptable and that they needed

 6     some shaking up, the president of the Benkovac government suggested that

 7     they should not opt for combat, but, rather, that they should make a show

 8     of force with tanks and everything else and try, through peaceful means,

 9     to have the various check-points around Skabrnja removed.

10             From what I know, that's how things happened the following day.

11     The assistant who set out to speak to the National Guards Corps, or the

12     MUP, whoever it was on the other side, as he approached the first

13     check-point, he was hit in the head by sniper.  I think his last name was

14     Stefanovic.  I don't recall his first name.  The soldier who accompanied

15     him, who was an inexperienced recruit, an 18-year-old man, he approached

16     the officer to see how he was faring and received a shot from a sniper

17     too, so they died seconds apart, both of them.  Since I wasn't in command

18     there, and I'm not a military expert, so I can't say that this was the

19     reason for it all, but that was when the action on Skabrnja commenced.

20             Sorry, I remembered that this private's name was Lazic.

21        Q.   Very well.

22             Witness, do you know if the action in Skabrnja ended that same

23     day, the 18th of November, or not?

24        A.   No.  The army took most of the village, but not all of it, at the

25     end of that day.

Page 16738

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at 2D198.2, please.

 2     It's a report of the command of the 180th Brigade for the

 3     18th of October, 1991.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction: the

 5     18th of November, 1991.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at item 5: Conclusions.

 7     Which reads:

 8             "The activities have so far gone to plan.  The action has been

 9     co-ordinated well.  We took Gorni Zelunik [phoen] fully and reached

10     Razovljeva Glava outside Skabrnja."  The Skabrnja railway station, I

11     suppose.

12             And it goes on to say:

13             "We are keeping encircled the part of the village of Skabrnja

14     that had not been taken as well as the village of Nadin."

15             The Razovljeva Glava station mentioned here as part of Skabrnja,

16     do you know if that was the line reached by the JNA on that first day of

17     action in Skabrnja?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr.

19             MR. FARR:  Objection on foundation, Your Honour.  I perhaps

20     should have raised this objection earlier.  The questions were more

21     general about the way in which the conflict broke out, something the

22     witness could reasonably know about.  He's now being asked about, you

23     know, specific tactical points.  And there's no -- there's been no

24     indication of how he would know that.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

Page 16739

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Witness, do you have any knowledge as to which part of the

 3     village was captured by the units on the 18th of November, 1991?  So do

 4     you know which part of the village was captured?

 5        A.   At the moment, I cannot recall all the toponyms, but I know that

 6     most of the village was captured.

 7        Q.   In view of the fact that you are familiar with the layout there,

 8     are you able to tell us these toponyms, Razovljeva Glava, Skabrnja, does

 9     that correspond to those two-thirds that were captured in the geographic

10     sense?

11        A.   Yes.  Razovljeva Glava is a hill in the village of Skabrnja.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr.

13             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, the question was asked and answered.  The

14     witness said he didn't know how.  And then Mr. Petrovic just led him to

15     agree with what's in the document after he said he didn't have that

16     information.

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, no --

18             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... one second.

19             Mr. Farr, you did not present the evidence of the witness that he

20     didn't know he said -- at the moment I cannot recall all the toponyms,

21     but I know most of the village was captured.  So he says that he knows

22     something about parts of the village being captured, but not knowing the

23     names.  And then, of course, the next question seeks to establish whether

24     refreshment of the witness's memory would help out.

25             MR. FARR:  If that's how the Chamber understood it, then I

Page 16740

 1     withdraw my objection.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             I don't know if the witness's answer was recorded.  I just need

 5     to look at that.

 6             I think that the answer was recorded on page 85, line 17, and

 7     that I can continue.

 8        Q.   Witness, sir, can you please look at paragraph --

 9             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... you totally

10     misunderstood Mr. Farr's observation that the question was answered,

11     because what Mr. Farr wanted to bring to our attention, that this was a

12     situation of question asked, question answered.  Isn't it, Mr. Farr?

13             Now, the witness has told us that the geographical name you used,

14     that that is a hill in the village of Skabrnja.  That's what the witness

15     answered.

16             You may proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Witness, what is the name of the hill above Skabrnja?  Are you

19     able to help us?  Can you tell us?  Do you know up until which line the

20     JNA came?  Can you give us some toponyms?

21        A.   That is Razovljeva Glava.  It's a point above the Skabrnja, and

22     that is captured.  In the military sense, it means that most of the

23     village is captured.

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at paragraph 6 of this

25     document.  This is on the second page.

Page 16741

 1        Q.   And before we look at that, witness, are you able to tell us if

 2     the activities in Skabrnja continued the following day?  Are aware of

 3     that?

 4        A.   Yes, they did continue the following day.

 5        Q.   Are you able to tell us, to the best of your recollection, which

 6     forces took part in this combat in and around the village of Skabrnja?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Foundation?

 8             MR. FARR:  Yes, once again, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's not only that the witness knows certain

10     names, but could you -- did he observe that himself, did he read it in a

11     report, was he told?  That's what Mr. Farr wants that you would establish

12     before the witness tells us about which forces took part in this combat.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Witness, in 1991, in November, did you have any direct knowledge

15     as to which units participated and if units participated in actions in

16     and around Skabrnja?

17        A.   Yes, I did.

18        Q.   How did you know that?

19        A.   [No interpretation]

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to repeat his

21     answer.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

23             Could you please repeat your last answer.  But did you say

24     anything more when Mr. Petrovic asked you whether you knew about units

25     participating in actions in and around Skabrnja?  You said:  "Yes, I

Page 16742

 1     did."

 2             Did you add anything to that, or was that your answer at the

 3     time?  That is, half a minute ago.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I said that I did know which

 5     units took part in the action.

 6             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... and could you

 7     now tell us how you knew that.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The chief of state security -- as

 9     the chief of security for that district, I took part in most of the

10     meetings and at the command of the 180th Brigade, in the TO, in the SUP,

11     in the municipality of Benkovac War Presidency.  It's a small area.

12             So that this answer that I can give can be given by the majority

13     of soldiers who were mobilised at the time, and even by citizens from the

14     area.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Petrovic, I'm looking at the clock.  We

16     have to finish at a quarter to 2.00 sharp.  So, therefore, I would

17     suggest that you would continue tomorrow.

18             Could you give us a indication as to how much time you would

19     still need tomorrow?

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm about halfway

21     through putting what I wanted to put to this witness.  So I think that

22     probably I could be finished by the end of tomorrow's second session, if

23     you allow me.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  If you say you're halfway, and your initial estimate

25     was four hours, perhaps Madam Registrar could inform us about how many --


Page 16743

 1     how much time you've used.

 2             But even if that would be the case, then two sessions tomorrow is

 3     two and a half hours, which would bring you already to four and a half

 4     hours, rather than to four.

 5             And you've used, until now ... we'll let you know.  I first

 6     already instruct the witness.

 7             Witness, we'll adjourn for the day, and we'll continue tomorrow.

 8     I hereby instruct you that you should not speak about your testimony in

 9     any way or communicate in any way about your testimony either given

10     already or still to be given tomorrow.  And we'd like to see you back

11     tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this same courtroom.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry to interrupt --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Do we need the witness for ...

14             MR. JORDASH:  Perhaps, yes.  I was going to ask if the parties

15     mind at all or if Your Honours mind if we gave some exhibits to the

16     witness to read this afternoon.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I would not oppose if the Prosecution does not

18     oppose.  Could you first show them to the Prosecution.  As I said, I have

19     to finish at quarter to 2.00 sharp, which is now.

20             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And so if the parties can agree on that and if there

22     be any need, we would intervene, if necessary, this afternoon, if the

23     parties cannot agree on it.

24             Is that clear?

25             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 16744

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we -- Mr. Petrovic, you have used a little bit

 2     over two hours.  So, therefore, your original estimate was four hours.  I

 3     would rather keep you to that for the time being, unless dramatic things

 4     develop.  Also because you paid such a lot of attention to background

 5     information, and not always of great relevance.  So try to finish

 6     tomorrow in two hours.

 7             We adjourn for the day.  And we'll resume tomorrow, Wednesday,

 8     the 1st of February, 2012, in this same courtroom, II, at 9.00 in the

 9     morning.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 1st day of

13                           February, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.