Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16745

 1                           Wednesday, 1 February 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic

10     and Franko Simatovic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             Good morning, Mr. Draca.  Before we continue, I'd like to remind

13     you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given

14     yesterday that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

15     the truth.

16             Mr. Petrovic will now continue his examination.

17             Mr. Petrovic.

18             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, I apologise for interrupting.  Before we

19     resume, I notice that the witness still has on the desk in front of him

20     the documents that were provided by the Stanisic Defence yesterday.  I

21     wonder if those could be recovered until they're used by the

22     Stanisic Defence.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             Any problem with the sound?  Oh, it's not plugged in.

25             Good morning, again, Mr. Draca.


Page 16746

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I should have verified whether you could hear

 3     me, but since you're now plugged in, I would like to remind you again

 4     that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given yesterday.

 5                           WITNESS:  ACO DRACA [Resumed]

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could -- Madam Usher, could you retrieve the

 8     documents that were given yesterday to Mr. Draca and that they be

 9     returned to the Stanisic Defence.

10             Mr. Petrovic will now continue his examination-in-chief.

11             Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13                           Examination by Mr. Petrovic: [Continued]

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Draca.

15        A.   Good morning.

16        Q.   Yesterday we were discussing what knowledge you have, and based

17     on what, of the forces that took part in the attack on Skabrnja.  You

18     said that you had knowledge of it, and you told us what the basis of your

19     knowledge was.

20             Can you now tell us, Which were the forces participating in the

21     attack, and under whose command were they?

22        A.   It was the 180th Motorised Brigade from Benkovac, reinforced with

23     one company of the TO Benkovac, and was subordinated to the brigade

24     command which was under the command of the Yugoslav People's Army.

25        Q.   Can we look at the document we looked at yesterday, 2D198.2.

Page 16747

 1             I'd like us to look at this report from the command of the

 2     180th Motorised Brigade of -- for the 18th of November.  Item 3.  It

 3     reads:

 4             "There were no events out of the ordinary."

 5             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Now Their Honours have the

 6     relevant portion before them.

 7        Q.   Can you tell us, What were deemed to be unusual incidents in the

 8     reports of this sort?

 9        A.   I'm not quite sure how the army would regard what unusual

10     incidents were, but, in any case, there were such incidents on that date,

11     so that's why I'm surprised by this item.

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we asked a couple of

13     questions about this document yesterday, and I'd like it to be admitted

14     as a Defence exhibit unless are objections from my learned friends.

15             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, no objection to authenticity or

16     relevance.  But, once again, there are some translation issues.  There

17     are handwritten names on the first page that are not translated, and the

18     receipt stamp on the second page is not translated.

19             So we would ask that the document be marked for identification

20     pending resolution of those issues.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the translation will

23     be completed, and we'd like it to be marked for identification up to that

24     point.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

Page 16748

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 2D198.2 will receive number D675,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Draca, you mentioned that there were unusual incidents on

 6     that day.  Can you tell us what exactly you are referring to?

 7        A.   I'm referring to a large number of civilians were killed on that

 8     day.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like us to look at exhibit --

10     or, rather, 65 ter document, 5596; page 375 in B/C/S and 374 in English.

11             We're waiting for the English version for the Chamber.

12        Q.   Mr. Witness, these are entries from the notebook of Ratko Mladic

13     made for the day of 22nd November, entitled "tasks and problems."

14             Under "problems," and item 5, it reads:

15             "Looting and burning, (Colonel Tolimir)."

16             Do you know why the name of Colonel Tolimir is mentioned in

17     connection with looting and burning?  Would you have an explanation for

18     that?

19        A.   At that point in time, Colonel Tolimir was the chief of security

20     of the corps stationed in Knin.  In other words, he was charged with all

21     the units, including the 180th Motorised Brigade in Benkovac.

22        Q.   To the best of your knowledge, what is the scope of duties of a

23     chief of security within a corps?

24        A.   Counter-intelligence, protection of units, and protection of all

25     manner of crime in combat, including looting and murder of civilians,

Page 16749

 1     torching, destruction, and such-like.

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like us to look at 65 ter

 3     document 5597.  Again, Mladic's diary; page 42 in B/C/S and of the

 4     English translation.

 5             We're waiting for the English.

 6        Q.   Mr. Witness, apparently Mladic made note of his exchange with the

 7     commander of the 180th Brigade, and in the middle of the page it reads:

 8             "46 members of the ZNG and civilians were killed in Skabrnja.  In

 9     Skabrnja, even grannies fired from hunting rifles on the army."

10             This is what Mladic noted from what he was told by the commander

11     of the 180th Brigade.  And then it reads:

12             "My position -- "

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the bottom of the page

14     for Their Honours as well as in the original for the witness.

15        Q.   "My position," under the second bullet appointed, "if the ZOS and

16     norms of MRP are violated in Skabrnja, instigate proceedings."

17             Mr. Witness, can you explain to us what these abbreviation stand

18     for, namely ZOS and MRP, if you know?

19        A.   I do know.  These are the usual abbreviations.  This is the

20     Law on the Armed Forces and International -- Provisions of International

21     Laws of War.

22        Q.   Mr. Witness, Mladic noted down his position there.  He says:

23             "If the -- these laws were violated, then instigate proceedings."

24             Do you know if any proceedings were instigated as a follow-up on

25     the events in Skabrnja?  And if you do know that, can you tell us what

Page 16750

 1     the basis of your knowledge is?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr.

 3             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, I -- first of all, the objection to

 4     foundation.  I think the foundations needs to be established before the

 5     question is asked.  But more generally, I object to the approach that's

 6     being taken, where the witness is essentially shown that Mladic has said

 7     that "I think there should be an investigation," and then asked whether

 8     he knows of any investigation.

 9             I think that that's leading.  And he should be asked what his

10     knowledge of that is before he's shown these kinds of excerpts.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, would you please try to elicit first

12     from the witness what he knows.  And if need be, then to put the diaries

13     to him.

14             Yes?

15             Apart from that -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

16             MR. FARR:  And foundation with respect to this particular issue.

17     How does this witness know anything about a JNA investigation?  He's not

18     a -- he's not a JNA officer.  He may well have knowledge, but that ought

19     to be established in advance.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             Mr. Petrovic.

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's precisely what

23     I was about to ask the witness, if he had knowledge of it, and, if so,

24     where does that knowledge come from.

25             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... that is a

Page 16751

 1     response to the part which asks for foundation, but it's not a response

 2     for the sequence of questions; that is, first to elicit from the witness,

 3     without showing him the documents, what he knows, and only then to put

 4     the documents to the witness.

 5             Mr. Farr when you're quoting, you did it twice, it was not about

 6     investigations but about prosecutions.

 7             MR. FARR:  Apologies, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10             I thought that the witness did say that he was aware of unusual

11     incidents and the killings of civilians, and I believe that to be

12     foundation enough.  But I will proceed.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not only what happened but also the position

14     taken by Mr. Mladic.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Witness, did you at a certain point learn that an

18     investigation was launched as a follow-up on these events?  And if so,

19     who did you learn it from?

20        A.   I came to know about it because Major Branislav Ristic, the chief

21     of security of the 180th Motorised Brigade, asked for a formal meeting

22     with me and as well as with the chief of public security in Benkovac with

23     a view to identifying the perpetrators of these events, and he stated

24     that there was looting and torching as well.

25        Q.   Witness, do you know if an on-site investigation was conducted in

Page 16752

 1     Skabrnja following the events in question?

 2        A.   There was no on-site investigation carried out in Skabrnja

 3     itself, save for the fact that the military police company, which was

 4     charged with sanitizing the area, made a list of victims and a

 5     description of the area where their bodies were retrieved.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at P1211.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  And can the speakers please make a pause

 8     between question and answer.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Draca, you are invited to make a pause before

10     you answer the question, because otherwise the interpreters cannot follow

11     us.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Have a look at this document, witness, please.

15             It was made by the authorised military police official.  And if

16     we look at page 2, we will see that he signed it.  That was

17     Lieutenant Ernest Radjen.

18             The document contains a list of the locations where the bodies of

19     those killed were retrieved, were recovered.

20             Can you tell us, if you know, why the -- why a military police

21     authorised official would be noting down the locations where the bodies

22     of these people were found rather than this being done by members of some

23     other organs or units?

24        A.   That is because this is under the jurisdiction of the

25     180th Brigade combat zone and absolutely no other service could have or


Page 16753

 1     did have any presence during the clearing of the terrain and any other

 2     similar activities.

 3        Q.   And public security or the state security from Benkovac, was it

 4     under their jurisdiction to conduct an investigation in the Skabrnja

 5     area?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Are you able to tell us why you think that neither the state nor

 8     the public security service were authorised to conduct these

 9     investigations?

10        A.   Simply because that was the Law on the Armed Forces:  Wherever

11     combat takes place, that is the area of responsibility of a certain

12     brigade, and no civilian organ has right of access unless it is invited

13     by the authorised command.  Which did not occur in this case.

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we just move

15     into private session for a brief period, and I will explain why, if you

16     allow me.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 16754











11 Page 16754 redacted. Private session.















Page 16755

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12   (redacted)

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19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we now please


Page 16756

 1     look at 65 ter 5597, page 43.  And this is the same page in the B/C/S and

 2     the English version.

 3        Q.   Witness, this is also an excerpt from Mladic's diary.  Mladic is

 4     noting down here a meeting with the commander.  And at the bottom of this

 5     page, it states:

 6             "Chief of Staff of the 180th Brigade must not lead the operations

 7     on his own."

 8             And then it says:

 9             "The corps command has made a mistake when it ordered an attack

10     on Skabrnja and Nadin."

11             Witness, sir, do you know why this attack on Skabrnja and Nadin

12     was considered to have been a mistake?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr.

14             MR. FARR:  Your Honour --

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will skip this

16     question.  I will move to the next one.  It's not a problem.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So the appropriate way is:  Do you know

18     what -- whether Mr. Mladic ever took any position in relation to -- to

19     the question whether the attack on Nadin and Skabrnja was -- was right or

20     wrong?  And then the witness can answer that.  And only then -- it's not

21     to ask the witness to read the diary and then to ask him what he knows

22     about the position of Mr. Mladic.

23             So we move on to the next question.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is clear.  I'm

Page 16757

 1     just trying to save time because I have a lot of questions and a little

 2     time.  So I'm just trying to squeeze in as much as possible.  This is the

 3     only thing.  But of course I understand the instructions from

 4     Your Honour.

 5        Q.   Witness, sir, do you know if any specialized assault unit took

 6     place in the events in Skabrnja?

 7        A.   Yes.  It's a small unit, an assault unit of the 63rd Brigade from

 8     Nis, comprising of some 10 to 15 fighters.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not get the full

10     name of the unit.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   And where --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness repeat the full name of the unit.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the 63rd Airborne Unit from

15     Nis, which at that time was at the Zemunik airport in order to secure the

16     airport.  But ten of its men took part in the Skabrnja action by landing

17     at the hill -- at a hill.  They did not take actual part in the actions,

18     but they were seen.

19             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Are you able to tell us who led this group of soldiers; and are

21     you able to tell us how these people were dressed, how these soldiers

22     were dressed?

23        A.   No, I don't know.

24             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Farr.

25             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, I was going to object to foundation, but

Page 16758

 1     the question's been answered.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that the

 4     complete answer was not translated.

 5        Q.   Witness, did you have an opportunity to personally see this unit,

 6     this assault unit from Nis, those days in the area of Zadar and Benkovac?

 7     Did you personally see them?

 8        A.   Yes, I did personally see them.

 9        Q.   And how were they dressed?  What sort of equipment did they?  And

10     what did they have on their heads?

11        A.   Well, they were characteristics -- characteristic looking,

12     because before that time we didn't see such sophisticated equipment.

13     They had NATO pattern camouflage uniforms and they had red caps.

14        Q.   And this 63rd Parachute Brigade, are you aware of the

15     establishment of that unit?  Where does it belong to by establishment?

16        A.   [No interpretation]

17             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the answer.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Since you didn't make a pause, the interpreter

19     didn't hear the answer.  Could you please repeat the answer.  And make a

20     pause in the future.

21             The question was:  "Where does it belong to by establishment?"

22             And your answer was ...

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 63rd Parachute Brigade

24     belonged -- or it was, rather, part of the Yugoslav People's Army.

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 16759

 1        Q.   Witness, sir, at some point did you learn about any events in

 2     Nadin on the 18th or the 19th of November, 1991?  And if you did, how did

 3     you learn about it?

 4        A.   The village Nadin is right next to the village of Skabrnja.

 5     Later I found out, also by speaking with the military security chief,

 6     that there were some civilian casualties in Nadin as well, but in a

 7     different way.  This did not occur in combat.  The National Guard Corps

 8     and the police of Republic of Croatia withdrew from Nadin because of the

 9     action, so that the army entered Nadin practically without a fight.

10             Later, on the night of the 19th and the 20th, there were crimes

11     against civilians, but not in action but exclusively for the purpose of

12     looting.  And then the next day, military security asked public security

13     for its help in order to conduct the investigation, to take photographs,

14     photographs of boot sole marks, because these were not casualties from

15     combat, but casualties as a result of a criminal action.

16        Q.   Witness, you mentioned the head of military security.  Could you

17     please tell us what the name of that person is?

18        A.   Well, it's the same person that I already mentioned before.  It

19     was Major Branislav Ristic.

20        Q.   And do you know if there was an investigation about this

21     incident; and who conducted the investigation?

22        A.   Yes, there was an investigation.  Military security of the

23     180th Motorised Brigade conducted the investigation.

24        Q.   You mentioned that public security took part in the

25     investigation.  Could you please tell us, if you know, who asked them to

Page 16760

 1     take part, and why?

 2        A.   The military security command asked the crime technicians from

 3     the Benkovac SUP to come in order to take photographs and photograph the

 4     papillary lines and similar, because the military organs did not have any

 5     crime technicians at that point in time.

 6        Q.   You mentioned that photographs were taken.  Were they -- was the

 7     crime scene photographed; and what happened to that set of photographs?

 8        A.   Yes, it was made.  And it was handed over to the

 9     180th Motorised Brigade team.

10        Q.   The investigation by the military organs, did it yield any

11     results?  Did it find out who the perpetrators of this crime were?

12        A.   There were no results.  And the perpetrators were never

13     discovered, as far as I know.

14             And this both applies to Skabrnja and Nadin.

15        Q.   Witness, do you know of any events in the village of Bruska on

16     the 21st of December, 1991; and if you do, can you please tell us how you

17     found out about it?

18        A.   Yes, I know about this event very well.

19        Q.   Can you please tell us how you found out that something happened

20     in the village of Bruska.

21        A.   In the evening that day, a relative of mine came to see me.  He

22     has the same surname as I do.  And he informed me that he had heard that

23     a large number of civilians were killed in the village of Bruska, among

24     whom was his own brother, who, of course, is another relative of mine.

25             Since it was night and since it wasn't possible to travel by car

Page 16761

 1     at that time, we waited for dawn, and together we went with the police

 2     units from the Benkovac SUP who had already been informed about the event

 3     as well.  They went to conduct an investigation.  The investigation judge

 4     came.  I went with them too.  And we found nine Croats who had been

 5     killed.  And we found a man there, Svetozar Draca, who was that relative

 6     of mine.  So, all in all, a total of ten civilians were killed that day

 7     in the village of Bruska.

 8        Q.   Are you able to tell us if at this time in Bruska there was any

 9     combat at this time that we're talking about?

10        A.   No.  This was deep within the territory.

11        Q.   You said that a unit of the Benkovac SUP attended the scene.  Can

12     you tell us, Whose responsibility is it under those circumstances to

13     establish whether elements of a crime can be found?  Under whose

14     jurisdiction is that?

15        A.   Under the jurisdiction of civilian bodies, i.e., police.

16        Q.   Can you tell us, Which branch of the civilian police is charged

17     with these issues?

18        A.   Public security.  This was treated as crime.

19        Q.   You said that an investigating judge attended the scene as well.

20     Do you know the person?

21        A.   I think it was Sava Strbac, an investigating judge of the

22     municipal court in Benkovac.

23        Q.   In addition to members of the public security branch in Benkovac,

24     were there any other individuals taking part in the scene-of-crime

25     examination and subsequent investigation into this case?

Page 16762

 1        A.   No.  There were no other people involved.  However, because of

 2     the impact of this event, there were various officers present there.  And

 3     after all, there were also us present, those from state security, because

 4     we thought it was a grave crime.

 5             I'm sorry, there were also representatives of the Benkovac

 6     municipality, i.e., the civilian government.  They wanted to see if there

 7     were any ways in which they could assist the survivors.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us what was the response and the reaction of

 9     civilian authorities to this event?

10        A.   While I was still at the crime scene, a courier, or a driver,

11     from Knin approached me and told me that Dusan Orlovic wanted to see me

12     as soon as possible.  I went to Knin, and I found Milan Martic in

13     Orlovic's office.  They asked me to brief them on the event, which I did.

14     Martic's reaction was very strong.  He said that such incidents needed to

15     be avoided at all costs.  He was wondering what to do with the remaining

16     villagers of Bruska.  He decided that I should be charged with securing

17     the village in the days and nights to come, because, in his view, the

18     chief of public security failed in his job, because it was his obligation

19     to make sure that every village had a patrol assigned to it to -- to tour

20     the village and make sure that it was safe.  And, of course, he was

21     referring to the villages where there were Croat inhabitants.

22             I went back to Benkovac.  And since I didn't have any military

23     units at my disposal, I organised, with the help of operatives, patrols

24     that were to guard the villagers in the subsequent days and keep the

25     survivors safe.

Page 16763

 1        Q.   You said that Martic was dissatisfied with the work of public

 2     security in Benkovac.

 3             Can you tell us, first of all, who was in charge of the public

 4     security service in Benkovac, and what became of that person in the later

 5     period?

 6        A.   The chief of Benkovac SUP was Bosko Drazic.  Martic asked for him

 7     to step down after these events, and I believe that this happened perhaps

 8     in March or April of 1992.

 9        Q.   Did Zdravko Zecevic have a role to play in these events, if you

10     know?

11        A.   Yes.  The villagers of Bruska asked that Zecevic pay them a

12     visit.  They trusted him.  They knew him from before.  And in fact he did

13     visit the village.  It was already on the following day or the day after

14     that that the village was gathered in front of the local school.  He

15     addressed them.  He tried to calm them down and said that he would make

16     sure that there was a security detail there for them at all times.  They

17     were very anxious and distressed, which was quite logical after such

18     events.

19             There was one elderly person who spoke most of the time, and he

20     said, Well, a war could last for ten years, and however eager you may be,

21     you will not be able to keep us safe all that time.  And he asked for a

22     bus to be organised to take them out.

23             Zecevic tried to dissuade them from this idea.  However, at their

24     insistence he gave in, and several days later a bus was arranged that

25     took them away.


Page 16764

 1        Q.   Who arranged for a bus?

 2        A.   It was the Red Cross in Benkovac and the Red Cross in

 3     Zadar [Realtime transcript read in error "Zagreb"].  Contacts were made

 4     through military channels, and what was arranged was, well, I couldn't

 5     call it an exchange, really, because nobody came from the other side, and

 6     I think that some 120 inhabitants of Bruska left on these buses.

 7        Q.   Mr. Witness -- witness the transcript reads "Red Cross in

 8     Benkovac and Red Cross in Zagreb"; is that what you said?

 9        A.   No, I said Zadar.

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can we move into private session

11     for a brief moment, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 16765











11 Pages 16765-16768 redacted. Private session.
















Page 16769

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

20             Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22        Q.   Mr. Witness, are you familiar with the situation in a place

23     called Lovinac in August and September of 1991?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Can you tell us, Where is Sveti Rok geographically situated in


Page 16770

 1     relation to Lovinac?

 2        A.   At the foot of Mount Velebit on the Lika-facing slope, between

 3     Gracac and Gospic.

 4        Q.   And what is the distance between Sveti Rok and Lovinac; and how

 5     large a place is Sveti Rok, if you know?

 6        A.   Lovinac is a much bigger locality than Sveti Rok, and it is --

 7     and, I mean, Sveti Rok so close to Lovinac that you could call it a

 8     hamlet of Lovinac.

 9        Q.   Can you tell us, What was there in Sveti Rok?

10        A.   There was a depot of the JNA, the largest of its sort in the area

11     of Lika.

12        Q.   You say that you are familiar with what the situation was like in

13     Lovinac in August and September of 1991.  Can you tell us the source of

14     your knowledge?

15        A.   I have knowledge of it from several sources.  First, from my

16     meetings with Dusan Orlovic, my superior in Knin.  There was the problem

17     because the Croats had placed the depot under a blockade.  They weren't

18     able to take the entire place of Lovinac, but they took the depot.  I

19     don't know which JNA units were there.

20             On the other hand, I know that 180th Motorised Brigade from my

21     area, from Benkovac, sent out a reinforcement once it was decided that

22     the blockade would be lifted.  The entire action was under the command of

23     one colonel, I believe his name was Trbovic.  And it was within the

24     jurisdiction of the Knin Corps.

25        Q.   Are you able to tell us about the 180th Brigade?  You said that

Page 16771

 1     it was involved in these activities.  Do you know who from the brigade

 2     took part in these activities around Lovinac?  Was it a part of the

 3     brigade?

 4        A.   It was just a part of the brigade that included the artillery

 5     unit -- section and the anti-armour section.

 6        Q.   And this part of the brigade, did it take part in any actions

 7     regarding Lovinac?

 8        A.   Yes.  They took part in the action to unblock Lovinac.  I don't

 9     know exactly the nature of the action, but I know that they were

10     subordinated to the artillery of the Drina Corps [as interpreted], which,

11     in its assessment, allocated a part of these forces.

12        Q.   And do you know who led the artillery in these actions around

13     Lovinac?

14        A.   The artillery was led by Colonel Atif Dudakovic, who was later

15     the commander of the 5th Corps of the B&H forces Bihac.  At that time he

16     was still the artillery commander of the Knin Corps.

17        Q.   Witness, sir, a few lines earlier it states that this unit was

18     subordinated to the artillery of the Drina Corps.  Is that what you said?

19        A.   No.  I said the Knin Corps.

20        Q.   Witness, do you know what happened with the civilian population

21     of Lovinac during these activities?

22        A.   A day or two later, I found out at a meeting with Orlovic that

23     the population had left Lovinac.

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please look

25     at 65 ter 5596; Mladic's diary.  Page 84 in the B/C/S and in the English

Page 16772

 1     version.

 2             There is a note here by Mladic.  The words of Colonel Trbovic:

 3             "I repaired my GP.  One battalion in Lovinac.  Command of

 4     Sveti Rok.  I had a brandy and a coffee in Sveti Rok.  One injured in the

 5     eye, treated.  I have no prisoners.  They had Lovinac, 250, about

 6     50 here.  Lovinac is a ghost town."

 7             Do you know why Trbovic said that Lovinac was a ghost town?

 8        A.   Well, that corresponds to what I said earlier about the things

 9     that Orlovic informed me about, and that was the fact that the civilians,

10     the inhabitants of Lovinac, had left the town.

11        Q.   Sir, a little bit before I omitted to ask you about the

12     18th of November, 1991, in Skabrnja --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have English text on our screens as well.

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, page 84 in English

15     and in the B/C/S.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Page 84 in e-court.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, I looked at page 84 in e-court in

19     English.  There I didn't find what you were referring to.  At least

20     unless I missed it.

21             Then I looked at the page which is numbered 84 at the top of the

22     page, and that is page 88 in e-court.  Now I see at the bottom it says

23     88.  Apparently what is seen at the bottom corresponds with the ... but I

24     still have not found -- but let me have a look.

25             I haven't found it.  I'm still waiting for ...

Page 16773

 1             Now, it would also surprise me to find it here.  It is -- the

 2     next, on page 95, we see that the dates is the 3rd of December, and

 3     apparently here we're talking about the 26th of September, which suggests

 4     that we should be -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

 5             MR. PETROVIC: [No interpretation]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  But I leave it to you, Mr. Petrovic.  If you can

 7     give sufficient instructions to get it on the screen, we can look at it.

 8     If not, we're unable to follow the testimony.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really don't know

10     how to help.  My assistant here is opening this 65 ter 5596, page 84 in

11     e-court.  That's what we have noted, but I really don't know how I can be

12     of help.

13             On our screen we have page 84, and at the top of the page it says

14     84.  And in the e-court it's page 84 out of a total of 387 pages.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  What I had on my screen is a total of 209 pages in

16     English, but then I may have the wrong one.  Are we in the wrong

17     document, are we in the right document?  That's the first question.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in B/C/S we do have

19     the right number.

20             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, at the risk of creating more confusion,

21     it appears that the ERN of the document on the left, the English version,

22     in other words, that's the English version of 65 ter 5597 rather than

23     5596.  At least as far as I can tell.  I don't know whether that's

24     helpful or not.

25             MR. JORDASH:  Perhaps I can assist.

Page 16774

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [No interpretation]

 2             MR. JORDASH:  It's time for a break.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We take a break.  And this is the most

 4     effective assistance we could receive, Mr. Jordash.

 5             We take a break and resume at a quarter to 11.00.  And I may then

 6     take it that the confusion has been resolved.

 7             I would also like to know, then, because I -- it seems that we

 8     have now the right pages on our screen, what caused the confusion.  Where

 9     someone may - and I'm very cautious - "may" have made a mistake.

10             We resume at quarter to 11.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 10.18 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  During the break I inquired in the courses of the

14     problems with getting the right portions of the Mladic diary on our

15     screens.

16             First of all, Mr. Petrovic, I do understand that you have done

17     what you are supposed to do, is that -- to give instructions as clearly

18     as possible.  And that the problem seems to be elsewhere.  The problem

19     seems to be in the way in which the Mladic diaries were uploaded.

20             I also was informed, but perhaps a matter to further discuss if

21     need be, that repeated requests by the Registry to reorganise the

22     uploading of the Mladic diaries by the OTP remained without success.

23     Which means that most likely we'll face this problem for the remainder of

24     the time at this Tribunal, and that is just unacceptable for the Chamber.

25             I am not going into the details.  I told you what information I

Page 16775

 1     had, right or wrong; but, again, right or wrong, the problem has to be

 2     resolved.  And it's not -- it is -- the Prosecution has uploaded them.

 3     There seems to be a major problem there, at least - again, that's my

 4     information - which causes all kind of problems if another party wants to

 5     use them.

 6             Now, an intensified effort to have this resolved together with

 7     the Registry is what the Chamber expects the uploading party to do.  If

 8     there's any need to involve the Defence, there will be an opportunity to

 9     do so.  If this will not result in a solution within, well, let's say,

10     within one week from now, I -- although I do regret it, I have to rely on

11     my system that problems which are not resolved and which need to be

12     resolved where we do not want to spend too much time on it are resolved

13     in meetings with me starting at 7.00 in the morning.  That is the way in

14     which I would like to handle this kind of technical problems.

15             So I'd like to receive within a week whether -- information about

16     whether the matter has been resolved.  And if not, we start working.  I

17     take care of coffee.

18             Mr. Petrovic, you may proceed.

19             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   Witness, I just forgot to put one or two questions in relation to

21     the events in Skabrnja.

22             Do you know that on the -- what happened on the 18th with the

23     civilians who survived the events?  Do you know what happened to them?

24        A.   Yes, I know.  The survivors were gathered together by the

25     military company that was in charge of clearing the terrain.  They were

Page 16776

 1     taken by bus to the Benkovac barracks where they were given some food.

 2     Then they were taken to the crčche building where they were waiting to be

 3     transported to Zadar, which was organised during the night or the

 4     following day in the morning.

 5        Q.   In the transcript, it says military company.  Can you tell us,

 6     Which company is that?

 7        A.   It's the military police company.

 8        Q.   Thank you, witness.

 9             Yesterday you said that the Krajina State Security Service was

10     disbanded in 1991, late 1991.  Are you able to tell us if at some point

11     the service was formed again; who formed it; and who was at the head of

12     the service then?

13        A.   Of course.  It was formed again in 1992 in August.

14        Q.   Are you able to tell us who formed it and who was at the head of

15     the service?

16        A.   During that period I was summoned to a meeting in Knin to see the

17     then-minister of the interior, Milan Martic, and he personally told me

18     that the State Security Service was being formed again because one could

19     not work without that sector of the security system.  He told me that he

20     had agreed with the political leadership of Eastern Slavonia and Baranja,

21     that he should elect the cadre for the service, and the chief of the

22     State Security Department was headed by Slobodan Pecikozic from Vukovar.

23             After a few days, Slobodan Pecikozic asked to have a meeting with

24     me.  We did have that meeting.  He understood that I had worked for a

25     long time in the service before that.  And in agreement with Martic, he

Page 16777

 1     offered me the post of his deputy, which I accepted.  The only condition

 2     was to continue to head the state security sector in Benkovac, which was

 3     formed again.  And this was because there was a shortage of professional

 4     staff in that area.

 5             So that from the end of August onwards, I was both the chief --

 6     the deputy chief of the State Security Service as well as the head of the

 7     Benkovac sector of that service.

 8        Q.   And did anybody help in this re-establishment of the service?

 9     Who adopted the documents that were important for the service?  How was

10     the service organised?

11        A.   The only assistance came from the Government of the Republic of

12     the Serbian Krajina, which at that time was already operational.  It had

13     a budget.  A part of the budget was allocated, which we used to start

14     again from zero.

15             As for the personnel, there was an agreement with Minister Martic

16     to go for the most educated people this time.  I proposed that we make a

17     complete classification of posts, even though we were starting from zero

18     and we didn't have enough personnel, and that's when we established the

19     administrations and all of the things needed to be done by establishment

20     in the State Security Service.  On the basis of my previous experience in

21     the service, we -- we used our experiences, both on the basis of the long

22     years of my work as well as Pecikozic's work, who worked in Osijek

23     before.  So Slobodan Pecikozic and I together, according to how we

24     remembered the structure of the service in peacetime, drafted a

25     classification of the posts of the administration and planned the work of

Page 16778

 1     the administration.  In the beginning, we didn't have enough staff, and

 2     gradually we employed people from public security.  Then we found some

 3     personnel who used to work in the Republic of Croatia and which were

 4     dispersed throughout different military units.  And then we started to

 5     work.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was:  Who formed it and who was at the

 7     head of the service?

 8             You would except an answer of two or three lines.

 9             Now there is a problem, I see that, Mr. Petrovic; it's difficult

10     to intervene because you have to wait until the translation is ready and

11     then the witness starts explaining again.

12             If Mr. Petrovic is interested to hear all the details about how

13     it worked, he'll ask you for it.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Mr. Witness, at this stage of the work of the Krajina DB, did the

17     service have contacts with the Republic of Serbia DB?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Can you tell us why not?

20        A.   I didn't know exactly what the reasons behind the conflict

21     between Mr. Martic and the Republic of Serbia DB were, specifically with

22     Mr. Stanisic.

23             However, at the meeting where Mr. Pecikozic and I were, together

24     with Martic, we were told that we were strictly forbidden from

25     maintaining contacts with all the various sectors of the Republic of

Page 16779

 1     Serbia SDB.  I personally thought it was a very bad decision and believed

 2     that we had to have some sort of communication at least at the basic

 3     level of exchange of information, but he stood by his decision.  In other

 4     words, we were strictly forbidden from contacting anyone in the

 5     Republic of Serbia SDB.

 6        Q.   Did there come a time when contacts with the Serbian DB were

 7     resumed?

 8        A.   Yes.  In late January of 1993.

 9        Q.   Can you tell us what prompted this change?  What happened at this

10     point in time?

11        A.   On the 21st of January, 1993, a large offensive was launched by

12     the Croatian army on the area of Ravni Kotari, which is precisely the

13     area to the left and to the right of Benkovac.  Due to numerous

14     operations, there were many civilian casualties, and yet again we were

15     faced with the same situation that we had back in 1991 where there were

16     many volunteers around.

17             I asked Martic that he allow me contact with the Republic of

18     Serbia DB in order to check the backgrounds of many of these individuals.

19     Many of them were suspected of having criminal records, and I wanted to

20     have at least that sort of communication with them.  At that point,

21     Martic allowed the contact.

22        Q.   You say you wanted to check the background of individuals.  Which

23     sectors of the service were charged with the background checks that you

24     needed?  And I'm not just referring to your DB, but to the DBs across the

25     former Yugoslavia.

Page 16780

 1        A.   Within the MUP, we contacted public security as well.  In terms

 2     of state security, it was the 1st Administration that was charged with

 3     this.

 4        Q.   After this improvement of relations with the Serbian DB, as you

 5     put it, did you start receiving orders, directives, or instructions for

 6     your work from the Serbian DB?

 7        A.   No.  We did not receive anything of the sort, orders or

 8     instructions.

 9        Q.   Did the Serbian DB send you any sort of technical equipment

10     required for your line of work once the service was reactivated?

11        A.   No.  Neither at that point nor at any subsequent point did we

12     receive any technical equipment from the Republic of Serbia DB.

13        Q.   Mr. Draca, this new DB service that was established in 1992, what

14     were its sources of finance?

15        A.   The budget of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina.

16             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Petrovic, I

17     would like to seek for better understanding, clarification of one of the

18     previous answers.

19             You said there were, as -- in 1991 there were volunteers around,

20     and you warranted to check their backgrounds.  Were they around and did

21     you want to check their background for recruiting purposes or for --

22     you're nodding yes.  So not for investigative purposes, but, rather, for

23     knowing whether they had a criminal background, if you wanted to recruit

24     them.  Is that ...

25             I saw you nodding yes when I said "recruitment."

Page 16781

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So Serbian DB would provide you with

 3     information about the criminal background of volunteers you would like to

 4     recruit in January 1993.

 5             To be recruited into what exactly?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since by then there was already the

 7     Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina in existence, after having run

 8     our checks and established that these were criminals or latent criminals,

 9     we would get in touch with the military security in order to have these

10     individuals go back to their -- to the places they came from, either the

11     Republic of Serbia or Republika Srpska.

12             Unfortunately, I have to say --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat what he said at that

14     point.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

16             Again, due to the speed of your speech, could you please repeat

17     the last part of your answer.

18             You "would get in touch with the military security in order to

19     have these individuals go back to their -- to the places they came from,"

20     and then you mentioned that to be "the Republic of Serbia or the

21     Republika Srpska."  But you said:

22             "Unfortunately, I have to say ..."

23             And what did you then tell us?  What did you have to say?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said this:  Unfortunately, most

25     of these persons did have criminal records, and we sent them back to

Page 16782

 1     where they came from.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, and those who did not have criminal

 3     records, they came as volunteers from Republika Srpska and/or Serbia, and

 4     they were recruited to be in what?  In police forces?  Military forces?

 5     What units?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Solely the units of the Army of the

 7     Republic of Serbian Krajina.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And when you say most of these persons did

 9     have criminal records, you learned that from the information you received

10     from the RDB of the Republic of Serbia; is that well understood?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you're right.  And from the

12     Republic of Serbia public security service.  We approached both these

13     services.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And they both provided you with the information they

15     had available?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

18             Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

19             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   Were you able to run checks on all the volunteers, or were there

21     cases where these checks were run, and in others they weren't?

22        A.   We tried to run checks on all of them.  In Knin itself there was

23     a check-point which we called the collection centre for volunteers.  They

24     would report there and wait for their assignment and our decision as to

25     whether they would be admitted or not.

Page 16783

 1             However, some of these volunteers would leave the place of their

 2     own accord and join various units, and we would only find out later on

 3     that such individuals were already out in the field with their units.

 4     But we did try to run checks on these cases as well.

 5        Q.   Witness, you say that in running these checks you co-operated

 6     with the Republic of Serbia Public and State Security Services.  Did you

 7     co-operate with any other institutions or organisations on these same

 8     issues?

 9        A.   Yes.  We had very busy co-operation with the State Security

10     Service of Republika Srpska and, to a much lesser extent, with the State

11     Security Service of Montenegro.

12             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Petrovic,

13     again a clarification of one of the previous answers.

14             You'd said:

15             "Some of these volunteers would leave this place of their own

16     accord and join various units," and you would find out only later that

17     they were already out in the field.

18             That means that before you had the information, before you had

19     the responses, they already joined units.  Again, units of the Army of

20     the Republika Srpska Krajina?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  So they came, you wanted to do a check on their

23     background; meanwhile, they moved to the field already and joined units

24     before you had received any answer.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.

Page 16784

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Was this all registered in an appropriate way, that

 2     they reported on this day here, we asked for information, we found them

 3     later in a unit A, B, or C?

 4             Was there a clear registration of all that?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Official Notes were made for

 6     all these cases, and everything we came to know was documented.  There

 7     were probably cases that we didn't know of, especially in that period

 8     between -- or, rather, from late January 1993, because that was one of

 9     the major battles won by both warring parties.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you referred to cases.  "Official Notes were

11     made for all these cases."

12             What do you mean by a case?  Is that a person who presents

13     himself as a volunteer and then moves already to a unit?  Or is it, a

14     case, is that an incident related to one of the volunteers?

15             What do you mean by "a case" where Official Notes were made?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Official Notes were made in all the

17     cases where an individual would leave this centre of their own will,

18     regardless of whether it was ultimately established that the person had a

19     criminal record or not.  A note would be made nevertheless.  As well as

20     for the individuals that we decided should be sent back.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So every movement of a person out to the field

22     without your prior consent or anyone for which it was established that he

23     had a criminal record and therefore had to be sent back.

24             Now, you would say "leave this centre."  What centre were you

25     exactly referring to?

Page 16785

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  The centre was one of the

 2     barracks in Knin.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And that was a centre for volunteers to report to?

 4     Or ...

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  So there was a centre in the barracks of Knin where

 7     volunteers could report for being available for the armed forces of the

 8     Republika Srpska Krajina?

 9             THE WITNESS: [No verbal response]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Mr. Witness, who controlled the barracks you've just mentioned?

13        A.   The Main Staff of the RSK army.

14        Q.   You said a moment ago that in January of 1993 there were many

15     forces deployed, I think you said.

16             Can you tell us what sort of atmosphere prevailed in that period

17     in Benkovac and Knin?

18        A.   At that point, the area had been declared a UN protected area.

19     In other words, it was under the protection of the UN forces, pursuant to

20     the Vance Plan.

21             According to the agreement, the Ministry of Defence and the

22     Main Staff remained in place, but we could no longer have units other

23     than the -- than police units.

24        Q.   I'm sorry to interrupt you, but what I'd like to know is:  When

25     this attack took place, what happened to the population?  What happened

Page 16786

 1     to the army?  How was it all organised?  That's what I'd like to know.

 2        A.   That's what I was about to say, but I needed to make this

 3     introduction because 52 kilometres of surface area were covered by the

 4     attack of the Croatian army, and there were only 48 policemen to cover

 5     the area under the UNPA agreement.  The population began retreating, and

 6     many civilians were killed.  This was an operation called Maslenica,

 7     covering the villages of Smokovic, Zemunik, Islam Grcki, Kasic, Biljane.

 8     Around 450 civilian casualties were recorded in the first ten-odd days of

 9     the attack.

10             At that point in time, a large contingent of volunteers arrived.

11     All the heavy weapons were stored in the various barracks, according to

12     the international agreement, and there followed a counter-attack -- or,

13     in fact, a defence action.  A counter-attack was never properly mounted,

14     but defensive positions were put together.  These villages remained on

15     the Croatian-controlled side, and that's where the line of separation ran

16     all the way through to the end of the conflict.

17        Q.   What I'd like to know, witness, is how it was all organised.  Was

18     there a clear organisation in place, or was there general confusion?

19     What was it all like at that initial moment?

20        A.   Of course there was great confusion.  The Croatian forces were

21     well armed and were advancing swiftly.  At that point, as deputy chief of

22     the department, I attended a number of government meetings of the Krajina

23     where, based on a plan put together by the government, we were requested

24     to provide assistance as soon as possible, and I, in fact, pleaded with

25     the units, or with the Main Staff of -- of the VRS, pleaded with them for

Page 16787

 1     assistance but it never came.  Large numbers of volunteers arrived,

 2     mostly because a call to that effect was issued by the government.

 3        Q.   Mr. Witness, you said that this was the time when co-operation

 4     was established with the Serbian DB, among others.

 5             Can you tell us which lines of work were covered by this newly

 6     resumed co-operation with the Serbian DB?

 7        A.   Well, at first, as I said a little while ago, it had to do with

 8     the background checks of persons.  And after a while, we also began to

 9     exchange intelligence in the sense that we asked and requested they

10     should forward to us the information, if they had it, concerning the

11     intentions of the international community.  We were primarily interested

12     about that because these were the UN protected areas.  We were interested

13     in whether the international community would react and order the Croats

14     to return to the lines they had previously held.

15             We were very small in Krajina.  We couldn't know that by

16     ourselves.  And most of my dispatches had to do with this.  Sometimes I

17     would ask in these memos about further movements of Croatian forces,

18     whether they intended to make more offensive operations, and so on and so

19     forth.

20        Q.   Could you now please explain to us which lines of work these

21     were, how were they called?  For checking persons' background and

22     information and so on.

23        A.   Well, the 2nd Administration was in charge of intelligence.  And

24     as for the other two, these were the first and the third.  The first is

25     the counter-intelligence, and the third one was in charge of extremism

Page 16788

 1     and terrorism, something like that.

 2        Q.   Mr. Witness, just to clarify:  Which line of work was in charge

 3     of checking persons' background?

 4        A.   I think that it was either the 1st or the 3rd Administration.

 5     I'm not sure which one, but one of these two.

 6        Q.   Mr. Witness, did Arkan arrive in the Benkovac area at one point?

 7        A.   Yes, he did.  As early as in the first few days after the attack.

 8        Q.   Do you know how Arkan arrived?  Did he arrive on his own, or was

 9     he sent by someone?  Do you know anything about that?  And if so, where

10     do you know this from?

11             MR. FARR:  Foundation first, please, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, of course, for a foundation, it should be

13     clear; foundation for what.  So, to that extent ...

14             MR. FARR:  How Arkan arrived.  The question was:  "Do you know

15     how Arkan arrived?  Did he arrive on his own, or was he sent by someone?"

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, there are two ways.  If -- either the

17     witness answer the question, or you say, Did you -- were you able -- I

18     mean, whether you start with a foundation, you have to make clear anyhow,

19     foundation for what.  So to that extent, the two are always in one way or

20     another related.

21             I think Mr. Petrovic asked the question and immediately asked the

22     witness to tell us also how he knew, and that is the foundation.  Whether

23     you start with the foundation or whether you give that as an explanation

24     doesn't matter that much.

25             Please proceed.

Page 16789

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 2        Q.   Please answer my question, Mr. Witness.

 3        A.   I know exactly how he arrived because I was present myself when

 4     his arrival was organised.

 5             At the time, because of the situation on the ground, the

 6     government session was conducted non-stop, 24 hours a day, and we spent

 7     most of the time informing the minister, Martic.  At some point, angry

 8     that Eastern Slavonia and Baranja did not send units to help, had a long

 9     argument on the telephone with the deputy defence minister, Milanovic.  I

10     have forgotten his first name, but his nickname was Mrgud, and everyone

11     knew him as such.  And then Mrgud promised that he would contact Arkan,

12     who had a centre in Erdut, in Slavonia, and an hour later he called

13     Martic while we were all still sitting there and informed Martic that he

14     would be sending Arkan, and Martic welcomed this eagerly.

15             And that's what happened.

16             On the next day or two days later, Arkan was already there.

17        Q.   Can you tell us, How many men did Arkan bring with him once he

18     arrived?  And where did these men go?  Under whose command?  If they

19     placed themselves under anyone's commands at all.

20        A.   He stayed in Knin briefly.  He contacted Martic who took him to

21     the Main Staff to see General Mile Novakovic who was at the time the

22     chief, or, rather, the commander of the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina.

23     And on the following day he continued for Benkovac.  He refused to be

24     stationed in the Benkovac barracks because the conditions were not good.

25     There were too many men and volunteers quartered there already.  He

Page 16790

 1     requested, and the president of the Benkovac municipality billeted him in

 2     hotel -- in the hotel Benkovac --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the name of the

 4     hotel.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He entered the hotel with his unit.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, you're speaking too quickly.

 7             The name of the hotel, please.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  The name of the hotel, please, in Benkovac.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The name of the hotel is Aseria.

11     That is the old Roman name of a fortress near Benkovac.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then please continue.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Witness, what happened with Arkan and his unit?  Did they

15     become part of a bigger unit, did they place themselves under anyone's

16     command, or did they act independently?

17        A.   No, they weren't independent.  They subordinated themselves to

18     the brigade command from Benkovac.  And under their command, they were

19     engaged in combat operations.

20        Q.   Did you attend any meetings at the Benkovac command?

21        A.   Yes, I did.  I attended one or two meetings while Arkan was still

22     there.

23        Q.   At the meetings, did you learn who issued orders to the units

24     which were deployed in the area of Benkovac and Ravni Kotari at the time?

25        A.   It was only the brigade commander, Colonel Momcilo Bogunovic.

Page 16791

 1     But sometimes it happened that some officers disagreed, and there would

 2     be a discussion, I guess that's how the army did it.  But eventually he

 3     would agree and he would sign his approval for all the brigades'

 4     activity.  And when I say "he" did that, I mean Colonel Bogunovic.

 5        Q.   Did anything happen to Colonel Bogunovic at any point?

 6        A.   Yes.  On the 31st of January, I think that was the exact date, he

 7     was killed while touring the units which were deployed along the front

 8     line.

 9        Q.   Can you tell us who took over the command of the brigade and the

10     units in Benkovac after his death?

11        A.   After his death, in order to avoid a drop of morale, the

12     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska sent a group of officers in

13     order to strengthen the unity of command, and it was an operative group

14     that was headed by Colonel Dragan Tanga from Knin.

15        Q.   Do you know what was the position or the function performed by

16     Colonel Tanga at the Knin Corps command?

17        A.   I don't know what precise function he had in the Knin Corps, but

18     I know that he was one of the top-ranking officers.

19        Q.   Mr. Witness, did Captain Dragan arrive at any point?

20        A.   Yes.  Captain Dragan arrived several days after the beginning of

21     the attack.

22        Q.   Can you tell us how you learned that he had arrived?

23        A.   As I had met Captain Dragan in 1991, and he also knew me, he came

24     to look for me at my office in Knin, and they told him that I was on the

25     ground in Benkovac, so he got down there and he found me.  He was alone.

Page 16792

 1     He then told me that he was at the Main Staff and that he was given

 2     carte blanche in the sense that he should establish a training centre but

 3     that he should first contact the brigade command in Benkovac so that they

 4     would designate the location, the number of soldiers, and so on.

 5             We had a short conversation, and then he went on to the command

 6     of the Benkovac Brigade.

 7        Q.   Do you know whether Captain Dragan was given premises where he

 8     could establish this training centre?

 9        A.   Yes.  The brigade command called the president of the

10     municipality and the chief of public security, that was Slobodan Vujko at

11     the time, and they decided to find the premises for him.  It was an old

12     factory which the police used as a sort of local police station in the

13     village of Bruska.  So it was up to the municipality and the police to

14     provide him with the grounds.

15        Q.   The training centre which you mentioned, do you know whether it

16     was opened?  Do you know whether it was independent or if it was a part

17     of some organ or institution?

18        A.   Yes, it was opened.  And very quickly Captain Dragan made it

19     possible to receive soldiers at this centre.

20             I went to see how the works were progressing, and we had a long

21     conversation on that occasion.  He told me that the -- his problem was

22     that he didn't know who would be sent to him, what would be the

23     composition and the character of the soldiers.  He said that the centre

24     was not part the Benkovac Brigade, but directly subordinated to the

25     Main Staff in Knin, and he gave it the name Alpha.

Page 16793

 1        Q.   Can you tell me whether you knew how recruits would arrive to

 2     this training centre run by Captain Dragan?

 3        A.   Some of the recruits were sent directly by the brigade command.

 4     But it also happened that some soldiers left there units on their own

 5     initiative and came to Captain Dragan's centre because of his popularity.

 6     It suddenly happened that everybody wanted to be trained at his centre so

 7     that there was a reaction.  Some of them would be sent back.  And an

 8     agreement was reached between Captain Dragan and them about the size of

 9     this unit.  Or I cannot call it unit, but, rather, the recruits who had

10     to undergo training.  Even though these people had some experience in

11     combat, but Captain Dragan trained them anyway, and this had to do with

12     reconnaissance activities.

13        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Did Captain Dragan tell you whether his arrival in Benkovac had

17     anything to do with the state security of the Republic of Serbia?

18        A.   No.  On the contrary.  One of the first things he asked me was

19     whether anyone from the Serbian DB was present.  When I told him that

20     nobody was there, he said that he was relieved, that he felt better when

21     they were not around, and then he told me that he was not on good terms

22     with the DB, without mentioning any details why and whether it was a

23     personal disagreement with anyone, but he did mention the institution's

24     name.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we really slow down.  It's going by far too

Page 16794

 1     fast.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Witness, during the proofing session I showed you a

 5     Prosecution video.  It's V000-3788.  From minute 54 to minute 58 in this

 6     video, what is depicted is a meeting from the 2nd of September, 1993.

 7             I selected two stills from this video, so I would ask you to help

 8     me identify who is represented in these stills.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] So if my learned friend Mr. Farr

10     does not object, I would ask for 2D1044 to be shown on the screen.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that it's something in dispute, that

12     there's a dispute about persons appearing there?

13             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, I certainly don't have personal knowledge

14     of the man we see on our screen.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then let's have a look.

16             Mr. Petrovic.

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

18        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you know the person who can be seen in the upper

19     left-hand corner of the screen?

20        A.   [No interpretation]

21        Q.   Can we please have a look at 2D1045.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

24             MR. JORDASH:  I'm not sure we got an answer to --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 16795

 1             MR. JORDASH:  -- the question.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you identified the person whose upper half of

 3     the face is visible on the left top corner?

 4             The previous photograph, please.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's me.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you look again at the picture which is now on

 7     your screen.

 8             When you said "that is me," were you referring to the picture

 9     where half of a face is seen in the left top corner?  Is that you?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then now we move to the next picture.

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Witness, can you recognise the person we can see in this

14     still?  And can you tell us something about the insignia which we can see

15     on the beret and on the sleeve of this person?  Whose insignia these are.

16        A.   That is Captain Dragan at the same meeting.  And the insignia are

17     those of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, both on his sleeve and on his

18     cap.  It is slightly blurred, but I saw it previously on the video when

19     you showed it to me.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I would tender these photographs

21     as a Defence exhibit.

22             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, I would just note that it was

23     Mr. Petrovic rather than the witness who told us that these stills come

24     from a meeting on the 2nd of September, 1993.  Perhaps it would be

25     helpful if we could get the witness to indicate what he knows about this

Page 16796

 1     meeting.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wanted to shorten

 4     it.  Whoever watches the whole video can see it clearly.  But let us

 5     tell -- let us ask the witness to tell us whether he knows what sort of a

 6     meeting this was, when was it held, and who were those who attended it.

 7     If there's any dispute about it, we can watch the whole video, which

 8     lasts about four minutes.

 9        Q.   Well, Mr. Witness, can you tell us what sort of a meeting this

10     was, who attended it, and why was the meeting held, if you know?

11        A.   The meeting was held in early September.  It's a meeting that was

12     held every three months or so.  It was a briefing for the prime minister,

13     which included all the factors of security in the territory of the

14     Republic of the Serbian Krajina, senior officers, the minister, the

15     assistants for internal affairs, civilian protection, and everything that

16     had to do with security organs in the RSK area.  Usually it would last

17     all day.  Everybody would submit their reports to the prime minister, and

18     this is where the directives were given.  The government would issue

19     directives for future work.  And then at the following meeting they would

20     review the previous period, and in -- also review what was happening

21     currently in the field.

22        Q.   Witness, thank you very much.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I had asked to

24     tender these two stills as Defence exhibits, if this is possible.

25             MR. FARR:  No objection, Your Honour.

Page 16797

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 2D1044 will receive number D676.  And

 3     document 2D1045 will receive number D677, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Both are admitted into evidence.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Witness, do you know what the political situation was in the part

 8     of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the Bihac and Kladusa area in

 9     1993?

10        A.   As of June 1993, I was appointed the chief of the state security

11     administration of the Krajina, so that I also commanded the part of the

12     operative forces that were covering and providing intelligence for that

13     area.

14             In the summer of 1993, there were serious divisions.  This

15     happened before, but serious divisions started in the summer of 1993

16     between the forces of the 5th Corps led by Colonel Atif Dudakovic and the

17     political part of the region of Bihac which was called western Bosnia and

18     which was led by Fikret Abdic.  There were some considerable tensions

19     among them.

20        Q.   Sir, at some point did you receive information that some contact

21     was being sought from this area?

22        A.   Yes.  The state security centre in Vojnic and Glina who bordered

23     on that territory which we referred to as western Bosnia indicated in a

24     extensive overview of the situation that Fikret Abdic wanted to contact

25     and negotiate with the leadership of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina

Page 16798

 1     in order to pacify completely the situation in the terrain, cease-fires

 2     negotiations, and so on.

 3             I conveyed this information to the Government of the Republic of

 4     Serbian Krajina, of course to our minister, who at that point in time was

 5     Milan Martic, and they reacted positively to this information.

 6        Q.   And did you receive any assignment relating to this matter?

 7        A.   Yes.  After government consultations and consultations with the

 8     prime minister and the minister, I was summoned, and I was told that it

 9     would be a good thing to start negotiations with Fikret Abdic.  They

10     believed that it would not be good out of political reasons for anybody

11     with a responsible political function to go, and they proposed that I go

12     to the first meeting with Fikret Abdic, and I organised this.  And

13     already after a few days we got in touch through my colleagues in the

14     field and Fikret confirmed affirmatively, he responded affirmatively, and

15     then we approached the technical organisation of that meeting with

16     Fikret Abdic.

17        Q.   Witness, sir, if you recall, do you know whether the meeting was

18     held?  When?  And where?

19        A.   I don't know the exact date, but I know that it was in

20     mid-September 1993.  The meeting was held on the very boundary of the

21     area we referred to as Kordun and the area we referred to as western

22     Bosnia in an abandoned house which, for that opportunity, was fixed up,

23     furnished.  I can say more, that I was informed by the Main Staff that

24     for a kilometre and a half there will be a telephone wire laid to the

25     house because President Milosevic himself wanted to speak with

Page 16799

 1     Fikret Abdic once we met there.

 2             And this is what happened.  The military placed the telephone

 3     cable.  Mr. Abdic came to this meeting.  I had clear instructions from

 4     the Government of the Krajina that had to do with us supporting his

 5     proposal for a truce.  At that meeting, he also said that he wanted a

 6     truce.  I asked him, What are we going to do with this other part of the

 7     5th Corps that did not want a truce?  He said that he had a lot of

 8     influence on their fighters and that he would try gradually to persuade

 9     them that peace would be a very useful thing to the people in the Bihac

10     region.  They were facing a humanitarian catastrophe there, had a

11     shortage of food.  That was his main argument.  We agreed to that.  After

12     that, there was a --

13        Q.   May I just interrupt you for a minute.  You mentioned that

14     President Milosevic wanted to speak.  Did president Milosevic talk to

15     Abdic on that occasion?

16        A.   Yes.  I was just about to say that.  The telephone conversation

17     did take place.  This was some sort of special line.  I just picked up

18     the receiver and Mr. Milosevic's secretary was on the line, and then he

19     took over.  I attended this conversation, which was very friendly, and it

20     showed that President Milosevic was supporting Fikret Abdic in his

21     intention to negotiate a truce with the Republic of the Serbian Krajina.

22        Q.   On that occasion, was any kind of meeting agreed?

23        A.   Yes, it was.  President Milosevic asked Abdic whether there was

24     any possibility and whether he wanted to come to Belgrade at all, and

25     Abdic responded in the affirmative.

Page 16800

 1        Q.   Do you know if Abdic made some suggestions about how to set up a

 2     truce in that area?  Did Abdic consult anyone else about these proposals

 3     that he mentioned to you at this first meeting?

 4        A.   Well, he came with several of his associates, whom I didn't know,

 5     so that I don't know if he consulted anyone else about his position.

 6        Q.   You mentioned that this meeting between Abdic and Milosevic was

 7     agreed on.  Did this meeting take place, do you know?  And if you do

 8     know, how do you know?

 9        A.   Yes, I do know.  Because I organised Fikret Abdic's trip to

10     Belgrade and I even personally took part in that.

11             I have to add also that the technical preparation from the

12     Belgrade side was something that I was not informed about.  Milan Martic

13     told me when Abdic was supposed to come to Belgrade and that is what we

14     organised.

15        Q.   Are you able to tell us where the meeting took place; and do you

16     know who it was that Abdic met with in Belgrade?

17        A.   The meeting was held in Belgrade in Boticeva Street at the

18     Presidency villa.  It was a building that was a state institution owned

19     by the president of the Presidency of the Republic of Serbia.  I don't

20     know who was present specifically, because we did not follow Abdic into

21     the premises.

22        Q.   And did you have the opportunity to speak with Abdic after this

23     meeting?  On the way back.  Are you able to tell us what Abdic told you,

24     who did you speak with, what were the topics, and what was agreed, if

25     anything, at that meeting?

Page 16801

 1        A.   Yes.  On the way back, Abdic told me that he was very impressed

 2     with President Milosevic, who accepted and supported his plan on peace.

 3     He said that it was time for all war to stop.  President Milosevic, Abdic

 4     said, suggested that a same kind of agreement be concluded with

 5     Republika Srpska, i.e., at the time they believed that that agreement was

 6     more important because of considerable action by Republika Srpska,

 7     because more than half of the region bordered with Republika Srpska.  So

 8     Abdic said that he accepted that, and President Milosevic took it upon

 9     himself in the coming period to prepare, as he said, the terrain for

10     Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic relating to this agreement.

11        Q.   Witness, sir, and the state security of the Republic of Serbia,

12     did it have any role in organising or implementing this first meeting

13     between Abdic and Milosevic?

14        A.   As far as I know, no.

15        Q.   Witness, are you able to tell us whether at any point in time

16     there were conflicts that broke out in western Bosnia between the

17     supporters of Fikret Abdic and the 5th Corps, under the command of

18     Atif Dudakovic?

19        A.   Yes.  Clashes did break out.  But I have to emphasise that the

20     agreement really was signed, I think in the second half of October 1993.

21     And it was published in the media that Fikret Abdic had been to Belgrade.

22     And I think that that was the main reason for the intensification of the

23     conflict of the 5th Corps with Abdic, pursuant to directives from the

24     leadership in Sarajevo, whom it did not suit that a number of Muslim

25     people would enter into agreement with the Serbs.

Page 16802

 1        Q.   Witness, do you know what the position was of the Republic of

 2     Croatia about these contacts between Milosevic, Abdic, and the others

 3     that we mentioned, at this time?

 4        A.   Mr. Fikret Abdic told me personally that he had talked with

 5     President Tudjman.  Had some sort of satellite telephone through which he

 6     communicated with the world, and he told me that President Tudjman had

 7     nothing against this agreement.

 8        Q.   Do you know whether a similar agreement was concluded with the

 9     Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

10        A.   Yes.  The day before we left to sign the agreement in Belgrade,

11     Mr. Abdic was in Zagreb, and he signed an identical agreement with, I

12     think, their president.  I think that his name was Boban, the president

13     of Herceg-Bosna.

14        Q.   Witness, you told us that once the agreement was signed there was

15     a conflict that broke out between Abdic's supporters and the 5th Corps.

16     Are you able to tell us how this conflict evolved and whether at some

17     point any of the sides became stronger in the agreement?

18        A.   The conflicts were already there but of a much lesser intensity.

19     After that, the conflict proceeded quite negatively for the Army of

20     western Bosnia, which resulted in the total capture of Velika Kladusa,

21     which was the centre of western Bosnia and with the expulsion -- well, I

22     cannot say it was an expulsion, but the complete population and the Army

23     of western Bosnia, of their own will, fled to the territory of the

24     Republic of the Serbian Krajina.

25        Q.   Can you please tell us where these refugees were accommodated and

Page 16803

 1     what happened to the weapons that the members of the army brought out to

 2     the republic -- to the territory of the Serbian Krajina?

 3        A.   When they left, the weapons were seized.  Actually, they lay down

 4     their arms voluntarily.  And then there were two trucks, as far as I can

 5     remember, two trucks of ammunition.  Most of them, or a number of them,

 6     wanted to continue to Croatian territory but the UNPROFOR did not allow

 7     them to do that, so they all stayed on the territory of the RSK, that we

 8     call Kordun.  There were about 80.000 people all in all.

 9        Q.   Can you please tell us where these refugees were placed and what

10     was the humanitarian situation?

11        A.   Since there isn't such a large area in the Krajina to receive a

12     large number of people, they were literally accommodated in the open in

13     two camps, Slunj and Turanj.  One was even larger.  And the situation was

14     catastrophic.  These people didn't have the the most basic provisions.

15     And we directed all the resources in that part of the Krajina to help

16     them.  We also asked for the help of the international community,

17     primarily of UNPROFOR, and we did receive some food which we handed over.

18     But it was insufficient for any longer type of stay for such a large

19     number of people in a small area, where I have to mention, for example,

20     from the Croatian to the Bosnian border, this whole area was some

21     24 kilometres wide.

22        Q.   Sir, did you inform anyone about this situation in these camps?

23        A.   Yes.  I would regularly report back.  This was already

24     August 1994.  I kept Milan Martic informed, who was the president at the

25     time.  I also informed the government.  As far as I know, Milan Martic,

Page 16804

 1     as the president, reported to the Serbian state leadership who were

 2     guarantors and sponsors of that peace agreement, if I may put it that

 3     way.

 4        Q.   At some point did Martic seek any help?  And who did he ask for

 5     help to resolve this problem?

 6        A.   Yes, he did ask for help, since the situation was very alarming,

 7     first of all, from the humanitarian aspect, the conditions these people

 8     were living in.  But there was also then a security problem.  We had

 9     80.000 people in our territory who had lost everything.  They were

10     outraged, and the UNPROFOR would not permit them to move on out of

11     concern that they would ask for asylum in western countries.  So there

12     was a lot of dissatisfaction in these camps among the population.  And

13     Martic asked President Milosevic, as well as Radovan Karadzic, whom he

14     called, for help as soon as possible to resolve these problems and to

15     excerpt pressure on the international community for them to go back.  And

16     since the international community did not react, or as far as we were

17     informed by the UNPROFOR command in Knin, the 5th Corps and the

18     government in Sarajevo did not agree to any kind of return of these

19     refugees to their homes.  Martic launched an initiative for them to be

20     returned by force, by use of weapons.

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I see the time.  I

22     would ask to go on a break.  And at the same time, I would kindly ask you

23     for half an hour or 45 minutes after the break in order for me to be able

24     to complete my examination-in-chief.  I am aware that I have exceeded the

25     time that I requested, but I hope that what I have been asking today was

Page 16805

 1     relevant and that it will be of help to the Trial Chamber, and that is

 2     why I am requesting to have additional time.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Before considering that, we have now listened for a

 4     couple of pages to the fate of refugees, where all three of us, the whole

 5     of the Bench, doesn't understand what the relevance is, let alone that it

 6     would be a focussed --

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] May I help, Your Honour, in that?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.  But perhaps we first allow the

 9     witness to leave the courtroom.

10             We'd like to see you back in half an hour.  Could you follow the

11     usher.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  In a few lines, Mr. Petrovic.

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15             The questions I've been putting to the witness over the last

16     couple of minutes have to do with the reasons or motivations behind the

17     joint action of the RSK, RS, and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to

18     enable these people to return to the area from where they were expelled.

19             Part of this action is Operation Pauk, which is a very complex

20     issue in this trial.  The witness gave reasons why these activities were

21     embarked upon, and these were activities that we've heard a lot about

22     during the trial.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  But did we have to know the details of who asked

24     exactly for help, to whom, and how many there were, et cetera?  Could

25     that not be condensed in just half a page instead of four pages?


Page 16806

 1             Mr. Jordash, you were on your feet.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Only to support Mr. Petrovic in the sense that from

 3     our perspective the Prosecution have not indicated what they say is the

 4     significance of Pauk to either the joint criminal enterprise or any other

 5     connection to crime.  And we would say, from the Defence, side that the

 6     DB were perfectly entitled, if Your Honours find this to be the case, to

 7     co-operate and collaborate on this operation because there was no

 8     criminal purpose, and it couldn't be conceived as a contribution to a

 9     criminal purpose.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  So what, then, the purpose was, was to establish

11     that there were humanitarian -- there was a humanitarian situation, such

12     that Operation Pauk and the involvement of the -- of the Serbian

13     government, I take it, a little bit, that very cautiously was justified.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I think, as a matter of fact, that that could have

16     been done in approximately a third of the time you took for it, but ...

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, how much time would you need with the

19     witness, as matters stand now?

20             MR. FARR:  Approximately five hours, as matters stand now,

21     Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will consider it over the break.

23             But let's avoid that what happens now more and more often, that

24     we start with an estimate of times and that what seems to be possible in

25     one week that we take two weeks for that.  That's really not -- and it


Page 16807

 1     seems that the main problem was in the beginning, Mr. Petrovic, and

 2     that's, of course, very difficult to repair at the end.

 3             So the Chamber will consider how to address this, I would say,

 4     this constant going over the time estimates.

 5             We'll take a break, and we will resume at 25 minutes to 1.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 12.06 p.m.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8                           --- On resuming at 12.38 p.m.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Draca, before we continue, would you be

10     available to continue your testimony early next week?  That is, on

11     Tuesday.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If needed, yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because we may not be able to finish your --

14     to conclude your testimony this week.

15             Mr. Petrovic, the Chamber has considered the timing and the

16     repeated going over the time estimates.  One of the problems for the

17     Chamber is that we do not want to intervene, when, at the beginning, I

18     said to you, I think, after one hour, that whether it was really so

19     important to spend so much time on the background, then, of course, the

20     Chamber doesn't want to say this after 15 minutes, or after 20 or

21     25 minutes.  It's your own responsibility to divide your time over the

22     more and less important matters.

23             The Chamber has decided, for itself, that we'll be far more

24     strict.  No repeated going over the time again.  And we have decided to

25     do this after we have considered what happened often during the

Page 16808

 1     examination-in-chief, and that is that a lot of time is spent on matters

 2     which seems - at least at first sight - to be of less direct relevance or

 3     which could be dealt with in a far more effective way.  Sometimes you

 4     really do not need four, five, six pages to establish something which,

 5     with a few focussed questions, could have elicited from the witness.

 6             It is also the lack of focus now and then which triggers the need

 7     for the Chamber, in order to understand the testimony, to put questions,

 8     which, by a focussed phrasing of the questions, should not have been any

 9     problem to understand the witness, such as time-frames, et cetera.

10             So therefore, the Chamber will be far more strict in the near

11     future, and it will have no effect yet on the testimony of this witness.

12             I immediately add to that, that the Prosecution is asking for

13     quite some time for cross-examination, which -- where the balance

14     sometimes is not as it should be, and the Prosecution is therefore

15     invited already in relation to this witness to see whether it can --

16     where the examination-in-chief takes four and a half hours, whether

17     there's really a need to cross-examine the witness in five hours, and to

18     reconsider that.  And, again, also to focus on the most important issues.

19             There may be some inherent problems which I'll not discuss now,

20     but, Mr. Farr, you're invited to see whether you can reduce the time.

21     And we'll take a strict approach as well.

22             No messages for Mr. Jordash at this moment.

23             You have 45 minutes left, and I'll be strict, Mr. Petrovic.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.


Page 16809

 1        Q.   Mr. Witness, before the last break you said that you briefed

 2     Martic on the situation and that Martic thought that steps needed to be

 3     taken to make sure that the people who had been driven out of their land

 4     return.

 5             Do you know if Martic took any specific steps to making sure that

 6     this happened?

 7        A.   Yes.  But let me say that the Main Staff of the RSK army thought

 8     that the situation was highly dramatic.  Mr. Martic contacted Mr. Abdic

 9     who was with the refugees in our territory a couple of times.  Abdic

10     informed him of the measures he took vis-ŕ-vis the international

11     community to ensure their peaceful return.  After a while, Martic told us

12     that Abdic himself had launched the initiative to put together combat

13     forces in order to militarily --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was: Do you know if Martic took any

15     specific steps to make sure that this happens?  Your answer was "yes."

16     And if you want to elaborate, tell us about Martic's steps, and not about

17     the whole historical background.

18             Mr. Petrovic, you're also invited to keep the testimony -- to

19     conduct it in such a way that you get the answers you're asking for and

20     that you stop a witness when he goes beyond that.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour.  Thank you.

23        Q.   Mr. Witness, please tell us specifically about Martic, what he

24     felt should be done; and what, if anything, did he do?

25        A.   The first steps he took were contacts with Fikret Abdic to see

Page 16810

 1     what he felt was best to be done.

 2             Next, he put pressure to bear on Radovan Karadzic in the RS and

 3     Milosevic in Belgrade, though he put more pressure on Karadzic to make

 4     sure that his people returned to western Bosnia.

 5        Q.   You mentioned Abdic's position.  Can you tell us what it was and

 6     how you came to know of it?

 7        A.   On two occasions I went to visit Abdic with Martic.  He felt the

 8     situation was hopeless and said that he had 4- to 5.000 soldiers who he

 9     would be able to organise into a combat force to try to make sure that

10     they return.  Martic couldn't give him any sort of reaction to that

11     because he to consult with the top military leadership.

12        Q.   Tell us first, What period of time was this?

13        A.   This was in the month of September 1994.  Early September.

14        Q.   Did, at some point, Abdic go to Belgrade?  And if he did, how did

15     you get to know it, and who did he talk to in Belgrade?

16        A.   Yes.  He went once more.  Martic made the contact possible with

17     President Milosevic, and we arranged his travel to Belgrade.

18        Q.   Did you accompany Abdic to Belgrade, you personally?

19        A.   Yes, I did.

20        Q.   Can you tell us, if you know, what was agreed in Belgrade; and if

21     you do know about it, how come?

22        A.   Let me say that before Abdic went to Belgrade, Matic and

23     General Celeketic went to speak to President Milosevic, and that was how

24     this second meeting came about.  And Abdic informed me of the outcome of

25     the meeting.  He said that Milosevic agreed to help him to ensure the

Page 16811

 1     return of the people, and specifically by providing him the needed

 2     logistics, such as uniforms, various other equipment, and whatever was

 3     needed to train these people.  He also wanted to send military

 4     instructors to help with the training in order that they might try and

 5     break their way through to western Bosnia.

 6        Q.   Were you informed that a staff had been set up to bring this plan

 7     into action?

 8        A.   Yes.  But that was after our return.  Martic and

 9     General Mile Novakovic informed me about it.

10        Q.   Can you tell me what they told you specifically?

11        A.   They said that the upshot of the meeting in Belgrade was the

12     decision to help the forces of Fikret Abdic in military terms.  To that

13     end, a staff was to be -- or was set up, which was to be charged with all

14     the various measures concerning that activity.  And when I say

15     "measures," I mean putting together, organising, training, and equipping

16     Abdic's forces, including humanitarian actions, security assessments, and

17     such-like.

18        Q.   Can you tell us, Was the staff set up?  And, if you know, who was

19     in charge of it?

20        A.   I know that the staff was set up.  It was important for the staff

21     to be close to the place of these events.  That was on

22     Mount Petrova Gora, in Kordun, and the staff was headed by

23     General Mile Novakovic, and Chief of the Staff was Colonel Cedo Bulat.

24        Q.   Can you tell us if the staff had some sort of title or name?

25        A.   The staff was given the code-name Pauk.

Page 16812

 1        Q.   Once the staff was set up, did some sort of assistance arrive

 2     from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia as a follow-up to what you've

 3     been telling us?

 4        A.   Yes.  I think it was in mid-October that a convoy arrived

 5     carrying aid from Yugoslavia.

 6        Q.   How did you come to know about the arrival of the convoy?  And if

 7     you have personal knowledge about it, first-hand knowledge, can you tell

 8     us something about the cargo?

 9        A.   Pursuant to a decision of the Krajina government, I was

10     duty-bound to spend all my time in the Pauk staff in order to be able to

11     timely respond both toward the president and the government on all the

12     events that took place and to organise the operational work -- or,

13     rather, the work of the operatives of the State Security Service

14     structure in the area, which was supposed to assist the staff.

15     Specifically at that time we were worried about the activities of the

16     Croatian army, because an attack happened at the time when we had -- or,

17     rather, we believed that it would be a disaster if an attack struck at

18     the time when we had 80.000 refugees in the field.

19        Q.   I'm sorry to interrupt.  My question had to do with the convoy.

20        A.   Yes.  I was present there myself as the convoy arrived.

21        Q.   Can you tell us, if you know, what the convoy carried; and how

22     large was it?

23        A.   I remember it by a very specific situation.  I know that there

24     were roughly 20 vehicles in the convoy.  There were 7- to 8.000 old JNA

25     uniforms, underwear, and everything that is needed.  There were two

Page 16813

 1     tank -- gas tanks, fuel tanks.  There were also some items that we

 2     learned later to be part of technical equipment.  There were trucks

 3     carrying foodstuffs.

 4             The only thing I'm sure about is that there were no weapons.  The

 5     position was they should not bring over weapons.  We had a lot of weapons

 6     that had been seized of Fikret Abdic's forces as they came out of western

 7     Bosnia and stored.

 8        Q.   You mentioned a moment ago that the forces of western Bosnia were

 9     supposed to be engaged in this combat.  And do you know what the strength

10     of these forces was?  What was done on that score?

11        A.   There were many discussions with Fikret Abdic on this issue.  All

12     of us, both the civilian and military authorities of the Krajina, did not

13     trust his assessments, not because we wouldn't trust him as a person, but

14     because we didn't trust that he had proper information.  So a proposal

15     came about to actually ask the people of western Bosnia to see how many

16     would wish to go back.  Then it was discussed with Abdic, and it all

17     boiled down so some to 4- to 4.500 people who wanted to go back.

18        Q.   When you 4.000 to 4.500, who do you mean?

19        A.   Well, I mean the refugees from western Bosnia of Muslim

20     ethnicity.

21        Q.   Four and a half thousand combatants or 4.500 inhabitants?

22        A.   Of all the refugees, 4.500 able-bodied men stepped forward

23     stating their willingness to fight their way back.

24        Q.   So how was Fikret's army set up and how did it all evolve?

25        A.   It was all part of the same plan.  Since we didn't have similar

Page 16814

 1     personnel in Krajina, and because of open combat activities with the

 2     Republic of Croatia, we were not able to set aside instructors who would

 3     be working with them.  It was agreed that as part of the convoy or a day

 4     or two sooner or later a group of instructors would arrive who would,

 5     first of all, look into the psychological and physical condition of these

 6     men and to train them for some infantry action before they return.

 7        Q.   Do you know if any instructors did arrive; and if so, do you know

 8     any of their names?

 9        A.   I do know that together with the convoy Zika Ivanovic arrived

10     that same night with a group of his men.  He was also known as

11     Zika Crnogorac, the Montenegrin.

12        Q.   Do you know who summoned him, Ivanovic?

13        A.   It was Martic himself who called him by phone in Novi Sad where

14     he resided and said that he would refuse to do anything unless Zika

15     arrived.  He trusted him.  He told him to go to Belgrade where he would

16     receive further instructions.

17             I don't know how he came to appear with the convoy.  Was it the

18     Krajina government that sent him instructions to join them?

19        Q.   Do you know an individual by the name of Milorad Ulemek, aka

20     Legija?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   Do you know if he, too, arrived in the area as an instructor in

23     that same period of time?

24        A.   Yes, he did, but at a later date.

25        Q.   Do you know in what way he arrived?

Page 16815

 1        A.   The very next morning after the arrival of the convoy, I informed

 2     Martic that the convoy was there and told him that together with the

 3     convoy Zika Ivanovic arrived with some ten to 15 men.  Martic was

 4     indignant because he thought that many more people would arrive.  They

 5     did, in fact, arrive that night, but they were there as security escorts

 6     for the convoy.  So he called Eastern Slavonia again, the same person I

 7     referred to earlier, deputy defence minister, and asked that Arkan

 8     come -- should come.  Ultimately he told him that Arkan wasn't able to

 9     come but instead Ulemek would come with a dozen men, and he did, in early

10     November, so some 15 to 20 days after the arrival of the convoy.  But I

11     don't know how many men exactly he brought along.

12             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... one clarifying

13     question.

14             You said Martic told Zika to go to Belgrade for further

15     instructions.  Who or what in Belgrade would give that further

16     instructions?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From 1993, there was a

18     representative office of the Government of the Republic of the Serbian

19     Krajina in Belgrade which was called the bureau of the same.  All members

20     of the government and ministries were members of that bureau, and they

21     were dealing with issues from the sphere of economics, food supplies, and

22     things like that.  Its director personally, his name is Djumic [phoen], I

23     think --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't ask you about details about the bureau.  So

25     the simple answer would have been:  It would be the representative office

Page 16816

 1     of the Government of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, and then can you

 2     mention the name.  That will answer my question.

 3             So that's where he got further instructions.  At least that's

 4     where he was sent for further instructions.

 5             Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Witness, do you know when the operation to return began; and do

 8     you know who commanded the whole action of the return to the western

 9     Bosnia area?

10        A.   After some 20 days of training, there was an assessment at the

11     staff command that these units were capable of return, and on the

12     17th of November the action started under the command of Mile Novakovic.

13     And then I have to add that in the meantime Fikret Abdic's units were

14     formed.  He appointed a person by the name of Serif Mustedanagic [phoen]

15     to command his units.  And since General Novakovic was in the staff, this

16     other general was on the front line with his units or wherever they had

17     forward command posts.

18        Q.   If you know, how -- what was the insignia of these units who went

19     to the front?

20        A.   Fikret Abdic's units had their own insignia.  And we also marked

21     them in the way that they were divided during the training.  We indicated

22     them as Tactical Group 1, 2, and 3.

23        Q.   And in these tactical groups, other than the officers of Fikret's

24     army, were there any others?

25        A.   Yes.  There were instructors that I mentioned.  Other than

Page 16817

 1     Zika Ivanovic who had to return to Novi Sad for personal reasons, health

 2     reasons, and he was replaced by Rajo Bozovic, who was a man

 3     who [as interpreted] had brought with him.

 4             Any way, the instructors were part of the forces, 10 to

 5     20 people, depending on the size of the tactical group.  These

 6     instructors were together with the Muslim units.

 7        Q.   Witness, do you know why these instructors were there in the

 8     Fikret army units when this combat was going on that was supposed to

 9     enable them to return?

10        A.   This was pre-agreed, before the attack started, with the

11     political and military leadership of the Army of western Bosnia that it

12     would be a good thing for the instructors to stay in the units, first of

13     all, for reasons of morale, psychological reasons.  And to tell you the

14     truth, from our side it was good for us to know what was going on and to

15     keep some sort of control, because we had an interest in the wishes and

16     the morale of these people.  The other thing was for the communications

17     system to function.  Of course we knew the voices of the instructors, so

18     the communications proceeded through the officers and Abdic's units, and

19     we could not be sure if there was a fall or anything else that was going

20     on.  So these people were responsible for the communications system.

21        Q.   You say that there was an interest for these people to be there.

22     There were reasons for them to be there.  Were there any security

23     concerns regarding the development of the situation, the status of the

24     units?

25        A.   That is correct.  I've already partially answered that question,

Page 16818

 1     and I just want to add that there was also a danger, also noted by

 2     Mr. Abdic.  These were fellow peoples, had family connections, so there

 3     was a danger for them to cross over to the other side, to the side of the

 4     5th Corps.  And so we also felt that that was also one of the tasks of

 5     the instructors who went into action together with these units.

 6        Q.   Witness, do you know if at any point Franko Simatovic came to

 7     this area of Petrova Gora?

 8        A.   Yes.  A day or two after the convoy.

 9        Q.   And did you find out the reasons for his arrival?  And if you

10     did, how did you find them out?

11        A.   I was there when he came.  He told me that he brought technical

12     equipment in the convoy that I referred to before, which was meant to

13     upgrade the old equipment on the Celavac-Pljesevica and

14     Magarcevac-Petrova Gora observation points.  He told me that he was going

15     to go with the technicians that he brought together in the convoy on that

16     same day to set up these facilities so that the radio reconnaissance

17     system would not be used only for the Pauk operation but would also be

18     useful in Belgrade.

19        Q.   Did Frenki stay there, did he go somewhere?  Do you know what

20     happened to him?

21        A.   He was just there for one day.  He spent the night, and then he

22     left the next day, together with those trucks with the equipment.

23        Q.   Do you know where he went?

24        A.   He told me that he was going to Pljesevica.  This is a mountain

25     which is some 100 kilometres from that place.

Page 16819

 1        Q.   During those days - October, November, December, 1992 [as

 2     interpreted] - did you meet Simatovic at Petrova Gora?  This was 1994.

 3        A.   Yes, I would meet him from time to time.

 4        Q.   Are you able to tell us if you had a chance to speak with him?

 5        A.   Yes.  We did talk at some meetings.  Actually, we also attended

 6     some meetings together as well.

 7        Q.   Are you able to tell us what the topic of your conversations with

 8     Simatovic was?

 9        A.   Mostly I asked him to inform us about anything that had to do

10     with any threats to the Pauk operation, any considerable movements by

11     Croatian, Muslim troops, helicopter, transports of ammunition to the

12     5th Corps, which could only be found out through radio reconnaissance.

13     He said that he could provide such information, and from time to time he

14     did provide such information to myself and also to the Pauk HQ.

15        Q.   Do you know -- you mentioned radio reconnaissance.  Do you know

16     what the source of the information was that you received from Simatovic?

17        A.   Radio reconnaissance from these centres was a way to penetrate

18     Croatian and Muslim centres, as well as the centres of international

19     forces that were present in that area.

20        Q.   In those conversations, did you have any information to offer to

21     Simatovic in turn?

22        A.   Well, of course.  As chief of security, I did have information

23     from the whole area.  Mostly information about any important troop

24     movements and the intentions of the international forces.  And I asked

25     him to check the information if the State Security Service of Serbia was

Page 16820

 1     able to check that information.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, your previous question was not fully

 3     translated.  So the witness may have heard it, but your microphone was

 4     not activated.

 5             You asked:  "In those conversations, did you have any information

 6     to offer to Simatovic" in terms of ... what?

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note: "... to offer Simatovic in

 8     turn?"

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Information of interest to

10     Simatovic himself.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes.

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I think that was the thrust of my

13     question.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we've heard the answer.  So please put

15     your next question to the witness.

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Witness, why was it important?  You mentioned gathering

18     information about activities, information, and intentions of the

19     international forces.  Why was that important?

20        A.   Intelligence work is always important for a country, and it's

21     always important to know in time what the international community is

22     planning and what its intentions are.

23             As far as this area that had to do with the Pauk operation, we

24     were primarily interested in how the international community would react

25     to the military return, to the return of the refugees from western Bosnia


Page 16821

 1     by means of weapons.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to

 4     move to private session so that I can put a question that would be in

 5     line with your guide-lines to the witness at the beginning of his

 6     testimony.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 16822











11 Pages 16822-16823 redacted. Private session.
















Page 16824

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Witness, in this period, October-December, were there any

 6     military intelligence officers in this area?

 7        A.   Yes.  Since the operation was considered exceptionally important

 8     for the entire Krajina territory, the Main Staff ordered the presence of

 9     intelligence and counter-intelligence officers from the military to be

10     present at the Pauk HQ.

11        Q.   You said that in the convoy a number of technicians arrived.

12     Were there any other support services that came with the technicians that

13     arrived?

14        A.   There was a unit that escorted the convoy.  Then there were

15     logistics people, as well as the technicians.  I recognised one of them.

16     I knew him from before, from Banja Luka, from Republika Srpska.

17        Q.   Mr. Witness, you say that there was a unit that was securing the

18     convoy.  Did that unit remain in the area, and what sort of tasks did it

19     have?

20        A.   I have to clarify that the convoy was stationed on the

21     neighbouring hill not very far away, perhaps a kilometre and a half away,

22     from the facility on Magarcevac.  And the unit remained there and

23     continued securing the facility where the convoy was stationed.

24        Q.   Did the unit have any other tasks at the time in addition to

25     securing facilities?

Page 16825

 1        A.   It did not have other tasks except when some important guests

 2     would arrive to the Pauk staff in Magarcevac.  Then they also secured the

 3     headquarters building.

 4        Q.   Can you tell us whether you know Manojlo Milovanovic and whether

 5     you met him at any point on Petrova Gora?

 6        A.   I had known him from before but not really well.  I only saw him

 7     at a meeting in Knin.  And he came to Petrova Gora in early November.  He

 8     came to the Pauk staff.

 9        Q.   Did you attend any meeting with General Manojlo Milovanovic?

10        A.   Yes, I did.  On that occasion when he first arrived there.

11        Q.   Can you tell us, What was discussed at the meeting?

12        A.   I know what was discussed.  The purpose of his coming was the

13     following issue.  We were to find a way -- because

14     General Manojlo Milovanovic hailed from Republika Srpska.  The issue

15     whether there was a way to link up the units with the other side of the

16     border, that is to say, Republika Srpska, which would facilitate the

17     return of Abdic's units to the territories in western Bosnia.

18        Q.   Did you ever attend a meeting where the replacement of the Pauk

19     commander General Novakovic was discussed and the appointment of

20     Manojlo Milovanovic in his place?

21        A.   No.  And if such a meeting was ever held, I would certainly have

22     known about it.  This was never discussed, Mile Novakovic and his

23     possible replacement.  Not just replacing him by General Milovanovic, but

24     by anyone else.

25        Q.   Have you ever heard that Novakovic's removal was planned or

Page 16826

 1     requested?

 2        A.   No, I never heard anything like that.

 3        Q.   Mr. Witness, while you and the operatives who were with you in

 4     Pauk were there, were you paid in any way for your work?  And if so, how

 5     were you paid?

 6        A.   We received regular income from the budget of the RSK government.

 7     And in addition to me as the chief of the department, we believed that it

 8     shouldn't be so.  Fikret Abdic was paying daily allowances for all our

 9     fighters who were engaged.

10        Q.   Can you tell us how this payment of daily allowances was

11     organised?

12             I apologise.  It says in the record "... all our fighters who

13     were engaged."  I believe you said something else.

14        A.   Operatives.

15        Q.   How were the daily allowances paid out, if you know?

16        A.   A colleague who was in charge of listing the activities on the

17     ground brought it to me for verification.  I would confirm the presence

18     on the ground.  And once I did that, he would go to see Fikret Abdic.  He

19     would confirm that as well.  And then after that he paid it out by a

20     courier who brought money to Knin, and he would collect the money in

21     Knin.

22        Q.   You say "he paid it out."  Who is "he"?

23        A.   It was Fikret Abdic.  I already mentioned him in the same

24     sentence.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.  I only have five minutes left and a

Page 16827

 1     couple of questions.

 2             Three minutes.

 3             Mr. Witness, do you know that there was an armoured train -- are

 4     you aware of the existence of an armoured train in 1991 in Knin?

 5        A.   Yes, of course I do.

 6        Q.   Do you know whose idea it was to make such a train?  Just be

 7     brief, please.

 8        A.   It was the president of the trade union of railway workers in

 9     Knin, Blagoje Guska.  He had the idea to construct an armoured train.

10        Q.   Who conducted it and how?

11        A.   Martic supported the idea, and Guska formed a team of engineers

12     and various people from appropriate professions in order to construct the

13     train, and the TO command in Knin gave him some tools which it had at its

14     disposal at the time.

15        Q.   Was the trained christened at any point?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Can you tell us when and under which circumstances?

18        A.   Well, the train was baptised, rather than christened, on the

19     30th of June, 1993, and that is the Orthodox holiday Ognjena Marija.  The

20     same Guska who constructed it wanted to baptise it on that very day.

21     Previously it was not possible because of combat operations, and I was

22     the godfather.  He wanted Martic but he couldn't do it, so he appointed

23     me to be the one who would baptise the train.  Actually it was the priest

24     who did it, and I was the godfather.

25        Q.   At this celebration of baptism, did anyone mention

Page 16828

 1     Franko Simatovic as the originator or the man who had the idea to

 2     construct this armoured train or had anything to do with it?

 3        A.   No.  No one mentioned Simatovic.  On that occasion, the

 4     representative of the Krajina government gave papers with the thanks to

 5     everyone who had been in charge for the train, that was Guska and others.

 6     And if someone had been killed, then to their family members.

 7        Q.   Did Simatovic receive any sort of award or any letter of thanks?

 8        A.   No, he didn't.

 9        Q.   Just two remaining questions.

10             Mr. Witness, yesterday you mentioned that Frenki told you that

11     Captain Dragan was to be processed.  Can you tell us what that means in

12     your service?  If an operative says that someone is being processed, what

13     does that imply?

14        A.   That implies that there is serious circumstantial evidence that

15     the person is involved in some sort of enemy activity.  Then there is a

16     proposal to begin the processing, and if this approved then the person is

17     really processed, which means that all the measures of the service are

18     applied to the persons.  And when I say "all measures," I mean that

19     positions are created around him, that he is monitored, documentation is

20     made about all information.  Photographs are made, his telephone

21     conversations are monitored, videos are made, and so on.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I have no

24     further questions.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

Page 16829

 1             Before we continue, just for my understanding of your testimony:

 2     You said the convoy came from Serbia and was accompanied by a group of

 3     men headed by Crnogorac, and that later, I think you said 10 to 14 days

 4     later, another group arrived headed by Ulemek, and he was the one who

 5     came although a request was made to have Arkan and Arkan's men arrive in

 6     the area.

 7             Did I understand your testimony well that both the group headed

 8     by Crnogorac and the group headed by Ulemek were there exclusively for

 9     providing security to the Pauk staff and the equipment that had been

10     brought in the convoy?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  The Counsel Petrovic asked me

12     about an armed group that accompanied the convoy, but that was something

13     else.

14             As for the group of instructors, there was one that was led by

15     Zika Crnogorac and another group that subsequently arrived led by

16     Milorad Ulemek.  But it wasn't the same, the one that provided security.

17     That was a different group.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, Mr. Petrovic.

20             So if I do understand you well, the group surrounding Crnogorac

21     was there for training purposes, to train other persons, not to be

22     trained, but training other purposes [sic].  And was the same then true

23     for the group surrounding Ulemek, or were they there for another purpose?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the same, the purpose: To

25     train.

Page 16830

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And was there then another group which

 2     provided security both to the vehicles of the convoy, which were not --

 3     which were close to the headquarters but not in the headquarters itself,

 4     and who would assist in providing security for the headquarters, if

 5     needed?

 6             Is that correctly understood?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 9             Now, this last group - or I think you said "unit" - providing

10     security, it was a unit of what exactly?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a unit from the MUP of

12     Serbia which accompanied the convoy which was supposed to pass through

13     Republika Srpska and a large part of the RSK.

14             We were asking for assistance, and it was this group that

15     accompanied the convoy from its starting point in Belgrade onwards.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now you say:  "Unit from the MUP of Serbia."

17     The MUP of Serbia exists of more units.  Could you be more precise?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not quite sure, but I think

19     that it's the anti-terrorist unit.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, finally, when being there, did they limit

21     themselves to the task you just described; that is, that this unit from

22     the MUP of Serbia did -- was exclusively involved in providing security

23     to the convoy or at least the vehicles of the convoy just outside the

24     headquarters and, if need be, the headquarters, or were they involved in

25     other activities as well, such as combat activities?


Page 16831

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I state with full responsibility

 2     that at no point did unit -- did this unit get engaged in combat

 3     activities.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I mentioned combat activities just as one example.

 5     My -- the core of my question was whether they limited themselves, and

 6     that means they were exclusively involved in providing security on the

 7     spot where the convoy or what had remained of the convoy was and the

 8     headquarters?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             Mr. Jordash, are you ready to start your cross-examination?

12             You will now be cross-examined - at least we'll start with the

13     first ten minutes of cross-examination - by Mr. Jordash.  Mr. Jordash is

14     counsel for the Prosecution -- for the Stanisic Defence, for

15     Mr. Stanisic.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:

18        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.

19        A.   Good afternoon.

20        Q.   I just want to try to elicit some more details about some of the

21     things you've talked about, starting close to the beginning of your

22     testimony and the setting up of the state security of the SAO Krajina.

23             You took your instructions from Dusan Orlovic; correct?

24        A.   That's correct.

25        Q.   And up until the time that the service was disbanded by Martic in

Page 16832

 1     November and December of 1991, had you ever spoken to Mr. Stanisic in

 2     relation to anything?

 3        A.   No.  I never spoke to Mr. Stanisic, nor did I ever see him.

 4        Q.   And Dusan Orlovic never told you that any instructions had come

 5     from Mr. Stanisic; is that correct?

 6        A.   That's correct.  He never told me such a thing.

 7        Q.   Now, when the service was disbanded in November and early

 8     December of 1991, what were you doing - just very briefly - in the period

 9     before it was formed again in August of 1992?

10        A.   I joined the units of the Territorial Defence, which, later on,

11     became part of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina army in a place called

12     Zemunik Gornji.  It was in the immediate vicinity of the Zadar airport.

13        Q.   Now, when the service was reformed in August of 1992, am I

14     correct that as a result of some conflict with the Serbian DB you nor any

15     of your colleagues were in communication with any of the personnel from

16     the Serbian DB; is that correct as far as you are aware?

17        A.   The latter part is true.  As for the former, I cannot say that it

18     was a conflict between Martic and the Serbian DB.  I don't know who he

19     quarrelled with, whether it was Mr. Milosevic or Mr. Stanisic, but at any

20     rate, he strictly forbade us from communicating with them.

21     We [as interpreted] even told us to convey that information to our

22     operatives, that any sort of contact, even physical in terms of the

23     offices of the Serbian DB, were strictly prohibited.

24        Q.   Now, at the time - late January of 1993 - when some contact was

25     formed with the Serbian DB, were you in contact with Mr. Stanisic?  Did

Page 16833

 1     you meet him?  Did you speak to him?  Did you receive any instructions

 2     from him?

 3        A.   Not personally to him.  I was received by Mr. Slobodan Mijatovic

 4     at the time.  He was the head of one of the RDB administrations.  There

 5     wasn't just I; there was also Pecikozic.

 6        Q.   And the relationship between the Krajina DB and the Serbian DB at

 7     that time, how would you characterise it?  Was it limited to the exchange

 8     of intelligence, or was there something else to it?

 9        A.   In principle, it had to do with the exchange of intelligence and

10     counter-intelligence, as you said.  But there were some technical issues

11     involved; like, for instance, announcing the arrival of our delegation in

12     Belgrade, asking for their assistance as they crossed into the

13     Republic of Serbia, et cetera.

14             In reverse, we would receive announcements of the arrival of

15     prominent individuals from Serbia who would be bringing in aid, and we

16     were asked to assist them as they crossed over from Serbia.

17        Q.   Thank you.  The evidence in this case suggests that Dusan Orlovic

18     started sending some kind of reports from April of 1993.  There isn't any

19     report that the Prosecution or the Defence have been able to find

20     relating to 1991 and 1992.

21             Were you aware that Orlovic started to send some reports to the

22     Serbian DB from April of 1993?

23        A.   I don't quite understand what you're saying.  At that time,

24     Orlovic had not been in Krajina for two years, nor was he an operative of

25     ours.  He left Krajina at some point, I think, in December 1991 when

Page 16834

 1     Martic disbanded our service.  So at that time Orlovic had not been

 2     present in Krajina for a long while.  If he did write anything, I'm not

 3     aware of it, nor was it a part of the RSK state security.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now, how many times do you think, if at all, you have

 5     met Mr. Stanisic in your life?

 6        A.   I have met him in person.  Perhaps on four to five occasions we

 7     happened to be in the same place at the same time, and those were usually

 8     meetings.  In other words, we never met privately.  We never socialised.

 9        Q.   Have you ever received an instruction or an order from him,

10     directly or indirectly?

11        A.   No.  I had never received any orders from him, nor would he have

12     been able to issue us with any.  We were an autonomous service.

13        Q.   Now, I want to speak to you about finances and the supplies to

14     the RSK MUP and the supplies to the state security of the SAO Krajina.

15             MR. JORDASH:  It is a new subject, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if it's a new subject, perhaps we rather leave

17     it for tomorrow.

18             One clarifying question.

19             Could you tell us - you said you were at the same place with

20     Mr. Stanisic four or five times, do you remember where that was?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most of these meetings took place

22     on Petrova Gora, in the Pauk HQ.  There were a couple of meetings in

23     Belgrade as well.  All this was in charge of Mr. Martic who asked that

24     Mr. Milosevic help him with putting together personnel.  And since we

25     were marking the start of these training courses, and there was a

Page 16835

 1     celebration, and I joined Mr. Martic, and Mr. Stanisic was there.

 2     Everybody was there.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We will adjourn for the day.  And we will resume

 4     tomorrow, the - let me see - the 2nd of February, if I'm not mistaken, at

 5     9.00 in the morning in this same courtroom, II.  We'd like to see you

 6     back then.  And I again instruct you that you should not speak or

 7     communicate in any other way with whomever about your testimony, whether

 8     already given or still to be given.

 9             We stand adjourned.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 2nd day of

13                           February, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.