Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17105

 1                           Thursday, 9 February 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is the case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus

 9     Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             There are no preliminaries, so, therefore, could the witness be

12     brought into the courtroom.

13             Meanwhile, I will deal with a few matters.

14             The first.  The Prosecution has informed the Chamber and the

15     Defence through an informal communication, which is hereby on the record,

16     that it would not seek leave to re-call witnesses Corbic or Lekovic.

17             Witness Corbic had been given an instruction not to speak to

18     anyone about his testimony pending the Prosecution's final position on a

19     possible re-call, and, accordingly, VWS is hereby instructed to inform

20     Witness Corbic that the given instruction is now lifted.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Gagic.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I would like to remind you that you're still bound

25     by the solemn declaration you've given yesterday.  That is, that you'll


Page 17106

 1     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  And

 2     Mr. Bakrac will now continue his examination.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.

 4             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Good

 5     morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.

 6                           WITNESS:  GVOZDEN GAGIC [Resumed]

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8                           Examination by Mr. Bakrac: [Continued]

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Gagic, good morning.

10             Mr. Gagic, yesterday before we finished for the day, you said

11     how, in 1991, you were an inspector and that later you were given a rank,

12     that this was in late 1993 or early 1994, when ranks were introduced to

13     the State Security Department.

14             Are you able to tell us which rank you received?

15        A.   The first rank that I received was major.  Later, I was

16     lieutenant-colonel, then colonel, and I retired with the rank of colonel.

17        Q.   Are you able to tell us when the State Security Department

18     introduced ranks?

19        A.   I think that ranks were introduced to the State Security

20     Department quite late, in comparison to the public security department.

21     I think that this happened some four or five, or even more, years later

22     than in the public security department.

23        Q.   When you say four, five years later, are you able to more closely

24     state the time-period?

25        A.   Well, it was sometime in 1996 or 1997.

Page 17107

 1        Q.   Mr. Gagic, I would now like to focus on early 1991 and the crisis

 2     in Yugoslavia at the time.

 3             Was there any situation in 1991 at the public security department

 4     of the MUP that was specific at that time?

 5        A.   Sometime in 1991, or, actually, even in late 1990, policemen from

 6     Croatia began to arrive at the MUP who had lost their jobs, either

 7     because they left the service on their own, or because they were

 8     dismissed from their jobs because of some violations which the Croatian

 9     authorities at the time believed to be serious violations of work duty

10     but, in fact, were just minor infringements.

11        Q.   And were you interested to know what was going on; and was there

12     any kind of recommendation in relation to that?

13        A.   Yes, I did become interested for a number of reasons.

14             First of all, it was the nature of my work, even before, to

15     communicate with large number of policemen from other republics as well,

16     from Macedonia, Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro.

17     Property crimes are crimes of such a nature that criminals commit crimes

18     throughout the whole territory and police co-operation was absolutely

19     necessary, even privately.  There was private conversation, telephone

20     calls, exchange of information, other than the official forms of

21     communication or co-operation.  So that I knew a large number of

22     policemen who were in Croatia and a number of those policemen came to

23     Serbia.  I became personally interested because the majority of them

24     contacted me, asking me to help them to resolve their status.  I was

25     personally interested and then the position was taken by the MUP of

Page 17108

 1     Serbia leadership to allow those policemen to receive employment

 2     relatively quickly without going through the entire procedures to be

 3     admitted by fulfilling all the requirements and going through the regular

 4     procedure, but without having to wait very long for this to be completed.

 5        Q.   When you say the decision was taken at the highest level, what

 6     are you thinking of?  Who made this decision on the employment of these

 7     policemen?

 8        A.   This decision was made by the minister of the interior but it was

 9     in the form of a recommendation.  It wasn't -- or at least I don't know

10     that decision was made in the form of a binding order or anything like

11     that.  It was done in the form of a recommendation for people who were

12     already policemen and who were without work to be admitted and for them

13     to just continue with work, to receive assistance with accommodation.

14     Actually, to help them normalise relations.  This was done by the

15     minister because the policemen did not only come to Belgrade.  These

16     policemen from Croatia were arriving in Novi Sad, Kragujevac.  So this

17     was a decision at the level of the ministry, or the recommendation, and

18     it did not apply only to Belgrade.

19        Q.   Mr. Gagic, I would now ask you to look at a document; D303.  And

20     while we're waiting --

21             THE REGISTRAR:  This document is under seal, Your Honours.

22             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I was just about to say

23     that.  It is under seal, so I would like to move into private session for

24     this, please.

25                           [Private session]


Page 17109











11 Pages 17109-17114 redacted. Private session.
















Page 17115

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 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

15             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know --

16     actually over the break I will check why it is MFI'd and we will see if

17     we are going to be tendered or not.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  There is still a provenance issue pending.  And that

19     is, I think D303 was obtained from Mr. Stanisic and that the Stanisic

20     Defence was trying to obtain a copy from the -- an official copy from the

21     Serb authorities.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   Mr. Gagic, let me repeat the question since we've discussed other

25     issues in the meantime.


Page 17116

 1             Can you date this footage, when it was that Mr. Kostic,

 2     vice-president of the SFRY Presidency, came to Borovo Selo?

 3        A.   Judging from the footage, I'd say that it took place a month or

 4     two later; sometime in the month of July of 1991.

 5             I say that because of the historic date referred to by

 6     Branko Kostic.  I also base my assessment on the fact that he said that

 7     he had just come over from that other gathering.  So I guess it must be

 8     the month of July.  At any rate, a couple of months after the events in

 9     Borovo Selo.

10        Q.   Does this video-clip indicate that at least some members of the

11     SFRY Presidency had given their support?

12        A.   Well, the discussions we heard do indicate that the President of

13     the Presidency is promising to the people there that he would provide

14     them with protection.  So this was no political campaigning, where

15     promises are given.  Rather, people are given promises that they would be

16     protected from an escalation of conflicts and that they would be provided

17     safety to alleviate the fears that they felt towards the Croatian police.

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can 2D1055.1 become admitted.  But

19     maybe MFI'd until my Case Manager produces the Registry with a disc.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any possibility to MFI a document, Madam

21     Registrar, if you don't have the underlying material?  That is possible,

22     okay.

23             MS. FRIEDMAN:  We have no objection.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  Then the number to be assigned

25     Madam Registrar would be?

Page 17117

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document -- video 2D1055.1 will receive number

 2     D690.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Is marked for identification.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 6             Can we now look at another video-clip, which I believe follows

 7     precisely up on what you said.  This is 2D1055.2 from the same batch of

 8     materials disclosed to us by the Prosecution.  And the time is 4 minutes,

 9     7 seconds to 6 minutes, 25 seconds.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

12             "Branko Kostic:  Europe and the world remember those policies

13     very well.  I'm convinced that Europe and the world will finally realise

14     today what this policy means and the disastrous effects that such a

15     policy could have, not only for the Serbian people in this territory of

16     Croatia which is most directly threatened but also the consequences that

17     such a policy could have in Europe in general.

18             "Our federal organs, particularly the Federal Executive Council,

19     have so far seriously concealed this topic as the circumstances are as

20     they are.  It is about the endangered area and where the Serbian people

21     are suffering, but the Federal Executive Council does not care less.  In

22     this and in all of the other cases, it is must be reported to full extent

23     and material-wise regardless of the ethnic composition of population to

24     which the disaster happened.

25             "We will do everything in our power in order for the JNA, which

Page 17118

 1     is strong, powerful, which has the wherewithal, now more than ever, that

 2     it may offer help and support to all the parts of the people who will be

 3     endangered or already are, regardless of where they are situated.

 4             "Today it is the Serbian people in Croatia who are at risk, and

 5     should the events develop in such a way as no one would wish to, we do

 6     not exclude the possibility that some other people may be endangered in

 7     some other areas and our army must be the force as a proper national army

 8     that will protect each and every one of our endangered citizens,

 9     regardless of their nationality, religious affiliation or political

10     orientation."

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, before you ask questions, the Chamber

12     wonders to what extent it would assist to see all the details of what

13     Mr. Kostic is telling here.  First of all, is there any dispute about

14     Kostic going to that area approximately that time and in support of the

15     Serb cause at that moment and giving -- delivering speeches, giving

16     political support.

17             MS. FRIEDMAN:  We do not dispute what is seen in the video, which

18     I think supports Your Honour's assertion, but we just do not dispute that

19     he made this speech.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just check what you ...

21             It's not entirely clear to me, Ms. Friedman.  You say you do not

22     dispute what is seen in the video but you just do not assert he made what

23     speech.

24             MS. FRIEDMAN:  We -- we resist agreeing to facts which we cannot

25     check in great detail on the spot, but we do not dispute the authenticity

Page 17119

 1     of this video.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             Mr. Bakrac, the exact words, reading that and asking the witness

 4     whether this indicates that someone from the Presidency came to give

 5     support, I mean, that's clear.  If he is vice-president, of course, he is

 6     coming -- what exactly are we supposed to learn from this?  What are you

 7     exactly establishing?  The specific words, or that he was there, or that

 8     there was political support or ...

 9             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to buttress our case,

10     and to challenge the case of the Prosecution that, in 1991, joint

11     criminal enterprise commence, one in which my client participated, I want

12     to depict a situation where the Presidency of the SFRY was still

13     operational.  And not only that.  It got engaged - and the witness will

14     speak about it - through the presence of the JNA as a dominant force in

15     Slavonia, and this is the better part of the indictment against my

16     client.

17             In the relevant part, it is stated that he substantially

18     supports, assists, and participates in the joint criminal enterprise

19     which was reflected in the crimes committed in that area.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will not stop you.  But to say that it's

22     convinced that it greatly assists to look at this material to reach

23     conclusions, as you suggested, is -- that would be an overstatement.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not going to

Page 17120

 1     exaggerate.  I have finished there.  I simply wanted to show and

 2     illustrate the genesis of how this witness was engaged.

 3        Q.   So, Mr. Gagic, after these addresses by Mr. Kostic, were there

 4     any movements, shifts, and did the Yugoslav People's Army come out of its

 5     barracks?

 6        A.   Already, it was noted in that period that the Yugoslav People's

 7     Army was taking a more active role in the protection of the civilian

 8     population and was actually becoming the only factor of protection of the

 9     civilian population along with the self-organisation of the local

10     population.  This is a period when the forming of the TO staffs began in

11     that territory, when the -- when some other systems began to function

12     within the military functions for the purpose of protecting the civilian

13     population.

14        Q.   You were -- we are talking these clips that we saw.  You said it

15     was July 1991.  After July 1991, did the MUP of the Republic of Serbia,

16     in a way, get involved in the activities; and, if it did, in what way?

17     Activities relating to the protection of the Serbian population.

18        A.   The Serbian MUP was not authorised to participate actively and

19     directly in terms of its presence in the territory of the Republic of

20     Croatia for the protection of the Serbian population, so that everything

21     that was possibly done in terms of protection and had to do with the MUP

22     of Serbia was done through the authorised military organs.

23        Q.   Did the forming of some units occur which were sent to that area

24     as part of the MUP?

25        A.   Some two months later, approximately, two units were formed.  I

Page 17121

 1     note -- or I emphasise these were volunteer units at the level of the

 2     Belgrade SUP.  Actually, at the level of the Ministry of the Interior,

 3     but this was done from employees working at the Belgrade SUP, primarily

 4     from staff who voluntarily joined those units.  And they -- before they

 5     worked in the Belgrade SUP, they had worked in the area of the

 6     Republic of Croatia.  These were policemen who were dismissed or who had

 7     left their jobs, had been given jobs in the Belgrade SUP.  Now they

 8     joined these volunteer units.  One of those two units went to Knin and

 9     the other one, the other unit went to Dalj.

10        Q.   You said that these two units, which they joined as volunteers,

11     mostly comprised policemen who, before that, were thrown out of Croatia,

12     and then, after that, had gotten jobs in Belgrade.  And, if so, were

13     there any people who did not hail from Croatia, were not thrown out of

14     Croatia, but did join these police units?  Were there such people?

15        A.   The unit that I myself joined had just two of us who were not

16     originally from Croatia and were not previously policemen in Croatia.  I

17     had spent my whole work history in Serbia.  There was another man who

18     came from Krusevac and who worked in one of the police stations in the

19     Belgrade area.  All the other members - and there were some 40 of us -

20     were members of the Croatian police force who had become unemployed of

21     their own free will due to threats or were dismissed.  They had come to

22     Belgrade, and then, after that, had joined this unit.

23        Q.   Based on what you know, are you able to tell us, other than these

24     two units, you say one went to Knin and then this one of yours to

25     Slavonia, were there any other units or any other members of the

Page 17122

 1     Serbian MUP who went to Slavonia in an organised manner or not?

 2        A.   As for them going to Slavonia in an organised way, at that time,

 3     there were no other such units or any other formations.  I am not ruling

 4     out the possibility that, individually, for a day or two or for a weekend

 5     or for the odd holiday day, policemen went from Serbia, if they hailed

 6     from such an area, they went to visit their families and things like

 7     that.

 8             As for them leaving in an organised way, for the purposes of

 9     protecting the population over there, no one else went from Serbia other

10     than those two units.

11        Q.   And these two units, are you able to tell us which sector they

12     belonged to in the MUP of Serbia?

13        A.   Both units belonged to the public security department, and they

14     comprised policemen who were employed at the Belgrade SUP.

15        Q.   We're going to focus on this unit that went to Slavonia, and from

16     what I understand, you went with the unit.

17             First, my question is this:  You went to that area as what sort

18     of formation?

19        A.   I apologise.  I don't want it to seem if I overlooked that

20     deliberately.

21             When we're talking about the departure of these units, I thought

22     that this would imply but perhaps it is important for me to say that.  In

23     the area of Slavonia, a number of SAJ, "Specijalna Antiteroristicka

24     Jedinica," special anti-terrorist units, headed by Radovan Stojicic,

25     Badza, were already there in Slavonia.  So when I said that I did not

Page 17123

 1     know whether any other units had been sent, I had said no, but this part

 2     of the special anti-terrorist unit was sent there before.  So it was

 3     already present there.  So I just want to avoid any misunderstanding

 4     about that or I don't want it to seem as if I did not mention that

 5     deliberately.

 6             Now I'm going to answer.

 7        Q.   First of all, you said SAJ, special anti-terrorist unit, which

 8     department did that belong to?

 9        A.   The SAJ unit, special anti-terrorist unit, belonged to the public

10     security.  It always belonged to public security, and it still today

11     belongs to public security.

12        Q.   And this unit, you say that it left before you.  You mentioned

13     Radovan Stojicic, Badza.  Did the whole unit leave or did they go in

14     another way; and, if they did, how many of them went?

15        A.   Only a part of the unit went.  It wasn't the whole unit.  I think

16     it was maybe some 15 or 20 members.  Policemen that belonged to that

17     unit.  They would rotate.  At some point, there were more of them, at

18     some point fewer.  But it was between 10 and 15 specials, or rather,

19     policemen of that unit.  They were permanently present.  Partially they

20     participated in the execution of combat actions, and they also worked on

21     the security of the TO headquarters and personal security of

22     Radovan Stojicic, Badza.

23        Q.   We moved away from the topic a little bit, my question before

24     that.  I'm not criticising you.  You wanted to explain this in order to

25     avoid misunderstandings.

Page 17124

 1             My question was:  This unit of volunteers from the MUP that we

 2     talked about, these members, former policemen from Croatia, and in what?

 3     What sort of formation was this?  Was this a police formation?

 4        A.   Immediately upon joining that unit, we were informed that we're

 5     going to be a military police company.  Thus, that we're not going to be

 6     going there by establishment as members of the Ministry of the Interior,

 7     but that we're going to be a company of the military police of the

 8     Novi Sad Corps.  This implied that we should not take our official IDs

 9     with us, that we should take our military booklets with us instead that

10     we had in our possession.  And immediately upon arriving in the area of

11     Slavonia, we received official military IDs issued by the Novi Sad Corps,

12     which was signed by General Bratic.

13        Q.   Mr. Gagic, when you left Belgrade, did you leave as a group; and,

14     if you did, were you issued any equipment in Belgrade?

15        A.   We left Belgrade in an organised manner as a group with an

16     already established command structure of a company.  We took with us our

17     personal side-arms, which we already had as MUP employees.  I

18     specifically had just a pistol.  And we were issued with uniforms which

19     were blue, and they were a little bit atypical compared to the already

20     prevalent green military uniforms and green camouflage military uniforms.

21     However, these blue uniforms were there because, first of all, we were

22     the police; and, secondly, these were made from thick serge material and

23     since winter was coming, they were the best suited for us to use during

24     that first initial presence of ours at the front.  We also had white

25     cross-belts.  This is a belt and cross-belt that went over the shoulder

Page 17125

 1     as a symbol of the military police.

 2        Q.   When you say blue uniforms, do you mean police blue uniforms, or

 3     what sort of uniforms?

 4        A.   These were not the police blue uniforms.  These were, in fact,

 5     winter uniforms of the fire brigade in Belgrade, which were perhaps taken

 6     out of service a year before that previously, and there were some left in

 7     supply.  First of all, we wanted to use those uniforms; and, secondly,

 8     they were of best quality and because winter was coming up, they

 9     qualified as the most suitable to be issued to us.  And the colour also

10     suited the type of unit.

11        Q.   Mr. Gagic, we're talking about the winter that was approaching.

12     When did this unit actually go to Eastern Slavonia and where did it go?

13        A.   On the 28th, the unit was formed, and then on the 29th, it left.

14     Our first destination was Dalj.

15        Q.   For the transcript, we have to be more precise.  You say the

16     28th it was formed and it left on the 29th.  Which month was this and

17     which year?

18        A.   I apologise.  The unit was formed on the 28th of September, 1991,

19     and it left for Dalj, in Slavonia, on that same day.

20        Q.   First, are you able to tell us whether it was a departure of a

21     secret nature; and, if not, who issued the permission?  What sort of an

22     agreement was reached about the sending of these volunteers from the MUP

23     to Slavonia?

24        A.   The forming of the unit and its departure to Slavonia was no

25     secret, nor was there any reason for the formation of such a unit to be a

Page 17126

 1     secret.  The permission for the unit to leave was given by the then-chief

 2     of the Secretariat of the Interior in Belgrade, Rade Markovic, and the

 3     then-minister of the interior at the time, Radmilo Bogdanovic.  No,

 4     excuse me.  No, it was already Zoran Sokolovic who was the minister of

 5     the interior already by then.

 6        Q.   And as a company of the military police, when you crossed into

 7     Eastern Slavonia, as you said, did you have more duties, more

 8     assignments, still in the city SUP in Belgrade?

 9        A.   When we were touring the area engulfed by war, our work duties at

10     the SUP were suspended, which meant that we could not have been engaged

11     to work on the execution of any assignment for the needs of the city of

12     Belgrade.  We could not be summoned to return from the war-engulfed area

13     in order to take part in any raids, arrests, or any similar activities.

14     Simply, our duties were focussed within that military formation that we

15     belonged to, and all of our duties were executed pursuant to the command

16     and control system of the unit, whereas our work status remained

17     unchanged in relation to the period.  It was the same as we worked

18     before.  We had all the benefits as workers of the MUP.  We had all the

19     same benefits, as far as our years of service were calculated, salaries

20     and the like.

21        Q.   Mr. Gagic, and how did it come about that you decided to join the

22     unit as a volunteer and go to Slavonia?

23        A.   My joining the unit and going to Slavonia was a personal act, on

24     my part.  There was no order that I received from anyone to do such a

25     thing, nor was it a principle to go to such assignments, pursuant to an

Page 17127

 1     order.  It was a personal act, action, and, in a way, I had already

 2     become a sympathiser and supporter of those people there, who, in my

 3     evaluation, were under serious threat in the Slavonia area and in the

 4     territory of Croatia as a whole.

 5             The choice to go to Slavonia was quite a coincidental thing.  I

 6     wanted to help.  I already had experience in police work, life

 7     experience, and I felt that I could make a much bigger contribution there

 8     than some young men of 20 or so who were going there as somebody who had

 9     to serve in the military, unprepared.  It's a question as to how much

10     training they had.  This was a fact.  I simply considered it to be a

11     personal act of mine that I had to join and help those people, and simply

12     by family tradition to participation in wars whenever Serbia was

13     threatened was something that my ancestors also had done before me.

14        Q.   Were policemen dispatched to any other crisis areas within Serbia

15     at the time?

16        A.   There was an active crisis hotbed in Serbia, which was Kosovo.

17     Before the outbreak of the conflict in Croatia, there were escalations of

18     the conflict in Kosovo on a regular basis, so that a large part of the

19     Serbian police force had to be dispatched to Kosovo for longer periods of

20     time, such as a couple of months at the time.  Thus, Serbia was in great

21     difficulties at the time, in terms of not having sufficient policemen.

22        Q.   You were in the public security department.  Do you perhaps have

23     any knowledge of any members of the State Security Department being

24     dispatched to Kosovo?

25        A.   State security did have its structure in Kosovo, its branches and

Page 17128

 1     offices that were operational.  Whenever there was a surge in conflicts,

 2     whenever public law and order was disrupted, they would reinforce their

 3     presence with contingents of policemen from other areas in Serbia.

 4     Otherwise, the police force that was present in Kosovo sufficed to deal

 5     with the situation without the policemen from other areas in Serbia

 6     coming to their aid.

 7        Q.   Mr. Gagic, let us focus now on your story.

 8             You said that it was on the 29th of September, 1991, that you

 9     arrived in Vukovar.  Where were you --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  29 -- yes, the

11     29th of November, 1991.

12             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   So where were you billeted when you arrived in Vukovar?

14        A.   As we arrived in the village of Dalj on the 29th of September, we

15     were put up in a daycare centre, a kindergarten to be precise.  At that

16     point in time, it was the only facility that could accommodate a

17     40-strong unit.  We had to sleep on the floor, since the furnishings, of

18     course, were appropriate for pre-school children.  We had sleeping bags.

19     We organised duty shifts in the perimeter of the facility we were

20     billeted at.  We also organised patrols --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, let's try to avoid what seems to confuse

22     us.

23             Page 23, line 16, your question was translated initially as:

24             "You said that it was on the 29th of September, 1991, that you

25     arrived in Vukovar."

Page 17129

 1             Then the interpreter corrected this and said:  "29 -- yes,

 2     29th of November, 1991."

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Your Honour, it was interpreter's mistake.  So

 4     it is the 29th of September.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because we then continued with the 29th

 6     of September, I didn't know what -- so the correction was a

 7     mis-correction.  Thank you very much.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Yes, I

10     noticed that.

11        Q.   Mr. Gagic, tell us, first of all, who was in command of your

12     unit; and under whose command did you place yourselves upon your arrival

13     in this village of Dalj?

14        A.   My unit was under the command of the former commander of a

15     special unit in Zagreb who had to leave the Croatian police under

16     pressure.  His name was Veljko Bogunovic.  He was admitted to the

17     Belgrade SUP where he worked for almost a year and -- so he was among the

18     first who had to leave Croatia.  He was the unit's commander.  He had his

19     deputies and his -- put the command and control structure of his unit in

20     place.

21             We placed ourselves under the control of the SAO -- SAO --

22     Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem TO staff, which was under the

23     command of Radovan Stojicic, Badza.  In fact, we placed ourselves under

24     the command of the TO staff, but our immediate superiors were, in fact,

25     the Novi Sad Corps.  We were part of the Novi Sad Corps but locally were

Page 17130

 1     under the command of the TO staff commander, Radovan Stojicic.

 2        Q.   Mr. Gagic, as you arrived in Dalj, were you issued with any

 3     weapons?

 4        A.   As I said, we took along our side-arms, but we were issued with

 5     certain weapons in Dalj as well.  They were semi-automatic and automatic

 6     rifles.  There was one, a machine-gun.  These were rounds belonging to

 7     the military police company.  Those were not weapons that had belonged to

 8     the civilian police.  So that while we had taken along some of the

 9     weapons, we were issued with other weapons in Dalj.

10        Q.   The weapons you were additionally given, Mr. Gagic, where did

11     that happen and who handed the weapons over to you?

12        A.   We received additional weapons in Dalj in the TO defence arms

13     depot.

14             Now, was this, at the same time, an arms depot for the entire

15     Slavonia or only for the place of Dalj?  Well, I think it was a central

16     depot of the TO staff of the SAO Krajina and Baranja, though it was

17     stationed in Dalj.  That's what it was called.  But it belonged to the

18     central structure.

19             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I've noted the time.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll take a break, and we'll resume at

21     quarter to 11.00.

22                           --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber apologises for the late start, but there

25     was an urgent matter which required the attention of all three of us.

Page 17131

 1             Mr. Bakrac, are you ready to proceed?  Please do so.

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I am, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 3             Let me first apologise.  I omitted to tender 2D1055.2 into

 4     evidence, as an MFI'd exhibit.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You want to have 2D1055.2 to be marked for

 6     identification.

 7             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be D691, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And it will keep that status until we receive

10     further information.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Mr. Gagic, before the break, we talked about the TO arms depot in

14     Dalj.  Do you have any knowledge about the possible sources of supplies

15     for that TO arms depot in Dalj?

16        A.   According to the information I have, that particular depot

17     received its supplies from other military depots of the JNA.  And I can

18     claim that because I saw, based on the sort of weapons that were there,

19     such as Zoljas, hand-held rocket-launchers and the like, that they could

20     only have been weapons belonging to the JNA.

21        Q.   Mr. Gagic, how long did you stay in Dalj, in that daycare centre;

22     and what were the tasks that you were performing?

23        A.   We spent some 15 to 20 days in Dalj.  It was roughly on the

24     20th of October, between the 15th and 20 October 1991, that we were

25     relocated to Erdut.

Page 17132

 1             I've already said that the conditions in that daycare centre were

 2     not appropriate for a unit.  During our stay in Dalj, we engaged in

 3     patrols and securing the facility where we were billeted.  We had both

 4     car and pedestrian patrols which went as far as the villages around Dalj.

 5             We were, in fact, waiting for our next deployment, which was to

 6     be a continued and definitive one.

 7        Q.   While you were patrolling, did you carry any sort of

 8     identification papers with you; and, if so, which ones?

 9        A.   The military records that we had, we left in the headquarters.

10     We had on us military passes, passes of the military police that we had

11     been given by the Novi Sad Corps command.  This was to serve as our

12     identification during the task that we performed --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter notes that we didn't catch the

14     name of the general from the Novi Sad Corps.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The name of the general of the Novi Sad Corps, could

16     you repeat the name of the general.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was General Bratic.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   Perhaps, Mr. Gagic, this would be the convenient time.  You say

21     that the commander of the Novi Sad Corps, General Bratic, issued you with

22     these papers.  Did there come a time that a new commander was appointed

23     at the head of the Novi Sad Corps; and, if so, when?

24        A.   Well, I wouldn't call it a replacement.  It was roughly in that

25     period that General Bratic was killed.  It was in early October of 1991.

Page 17133

 1     He was replaced by Andrija Biorcevic, a general.

 2        Q.   Mr. Gagic, after having spent between 15 and 20 days in Dalj,

 3     were you deployed to a different location with a specific task given to

 4     the unit?

 5        A.   Once we were given billeting quarters in Erdut, which were, in

 6     fact, a part of the Saponia company complex, we, as the unit, were given

 7     a specific task, which was to check the traffic across the Brotherhood

 8     and Unity bridge.  That was the only road between Vojvodina and Eastern

 9     Slavonia, and we were supposed to check all the passengers, individuals

10     travelling along that road, as well as the goods transported.

11        Q.   Until you were put up in the Saponia premises in Erdut, had any

12     sort of facility been secured for you where you took your meals?

13        A.   Since this particular facility belonging to Saponia did have a

14     canteen, we had the premises but we didn't have the staff to man it.  So

15     before this was done, we took our meals in the 101st Recruitment Centre,

16     which was, in fact, the so-called Arkan Centre, the Territorial Defence

17     Centre.  It was in that facility where Arkan's unit was billeted that we

18     took our meals.

19        Q.   In these dozen or so days while you were taking your meals in the

20     recruitment centre, did you have occasion to see Arkan and whomever it

21     was who was stationed there?

22        A.   While we went on to have our meals there, I got to the know Arkan

23     and Radovan Stojicic, Badza, though I had known Arkan from before on

24     several different bases.  I would also occasionally see Goran Hadzic

25     coming to the centre, including, of course, members of Arkan's

Page 17134

 1     Volunteer Guard, who would take their meals there at the same time we

 2     did.  And, of course, Radovan Stojicic who would come there periodically.

 3             It was not a centre that was closed off to the public, and other

 4     people were able to come there as well.

 5        Q.   Did you have the opportunity to find out to which structure the

 6     Serbian Volunteer Guard and Arkan belonged, when they were there?

 7        A.   Yes.  I knew from the very beginning that the Serbian

 8     Volunteer Guard and the volunteers who joined that guard were

 9     subordinated to the TO Staff, in terms of organisation, meaning to

10     Radovan Stojicic, Badza, but they carried out tasks directly pursuant to

11     orders of the Novi Sad Corps Command.  So their tasks did not always

12     imply that the order to execute the task or action planning proceeded

13     through the TO Staff.  There were also direct engagements by Novi Sad

14     Corps units and through the TO Staff, but definitely they were

15     resubordinated to the TO Staff and the TO Staff was resubordinated to the

16     Novi Sad Corps.

17        Q.   Mr. Gagic, you say that, for a while, some ten days or so, you

18     had your meals at this training centre and that you had been given a task

19     to control the Bogojevski bridge as a unit.  Are you able to tell us, if

20     you know, how did the Serbian Volunteer Guard volunteers come to that

21     particular area?

22        A.   I did not spend too much time at the bridge.  I was more involved

23     in organisational tasks, but I did tour the deployed unit members at the

24     bridge, and I had the opportunity to see when all sorts of formations

25     arrived there, including the Serbian Volunteer Guard.  They would arrive

Page 17135

 1     in a van.  It was not a regular passenger vehicle.  It was a van, a

 2     larger vehicle, with Belgrade plates.  They would come in civilian

 3     clothing.  New volunteers would come in civilian clothing, in civilian

 4     clothes, in small groups, three, four, five of them, meaning small

 5     groups, and the driver of the van was an older guard member, somebody who

 6     was already in the unit, thus, and he had a pass to cross that Erdut

 7     bridge.  Thus, he had the permission to enter with the people who were

 8     with him in the vehicle.

 9        Q.   And do you know which structure was this permit to enter received

10     from?

11        A.   The permit was received from the TO Slavonia Staff.

12        Q.   You say that a few people would arrive in this van, you said, in

13     civilian clothing.  Did they have arms with them?

14        A.   They did not have weapons.  They didn't even have side-arms that

15     they perhaps had as citizens.  They had to come without any weapons to

16     that area.

17        Q.   And do you know where and when they were issued with weapons,

18     once they arrived?

19        A.   The Serbian Volunteer Guard received its supplies from the

20     TO Staff depot in Dalj.  Because, once, we had the situation when I went

21     for some additional equipment that we needed, and I saw a vehicle that

22     belonged to the Guard that was also -- also being issued with some --

23     some weapons and ammunition, and then I could see that the Serbian

24     Volunteer Guard was also being supplied through that depot, which

25     received its supplies, in turn, from the army.

Page 17136

 1        Q.   And did you have the opportunity to hear or to see at the very

 2     beginning who trained?  Or, rather, did the Serbian Volunteer Guard in

 3     Erdut carry out any kind of training?

 4        A.   The Serbian Volunteer Guard did carry out training, even before

 5     we arrived, and after we arrived, the training was carried out as part of

 6     the activities of that centre.  Behind the centre, there was a football

 7     field which was suitable for training.  There was also an area which was

 8     suitable for target practice, infantry weapons target practice.

 9             I also know from talking with members of the SAJ unit that, in

10     the beginning, these members of this unit were the instructors in Serbian

11     Volunteer Guard, that it was they who trained the Serbian Volunteer Guard

12     volunteers, Arkan's volunteers.  They trained them during a period of

13     time by training larger formations of 50 to 60 people and by providing

14     special training for the most talented members of that Guard who later

15     they appointed as instructors.  So when the first cycle of training was

16     over and when the first group of instructors was formed in the Serbian

17     Volunteer Guard, they took over the training and the members of the SAJ

18     no longer participated in this training, or conducted the training, and

19     then other people would come to the Guard who already had special skills,

20     whether they learned them in the army or because they were expert in

21     martial arts.  In any case --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last

23     sentence.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please repeat the last sentence.

25             What we have on our screen now is that:

Page 17137

 1             "And then other people would come to the Guard who already had

 2     special skills, whether they learned them in the army or because they

 3     were expert in martial arts ..."

 4             And then you added:  "In any case ..."

 5             And what did then follow?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, that was the end.

 7             That they were experts in martial arts who later continued to

 8     give the training.  That was the end of the sentence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.

10             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Gagic, this first thing, you said members of the SAJ unit.

12     Let me repeat:  Was the complete SAJ unit there out in the field?

13        A.   No.  A smaller part of it was out in the field.  Less than a

14     third of the total SAJ was there.

15        Q.   Without repeating it, earlier you explained how and with whom

16     they came there as volunteers.

17             Can you tell me just one more time, they belonged to which

18     administration?  Which department in the Serbian MUP?

19        A.   The SAJ were part of the public security service.

20        Q.   Witness, we talked about arming.

21             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at a document, which

22     is already in evidence in this case.  This is D31.  I think that this is

23     not under seal and that we can look at it in open session.

24        Q.   And while we're waiting, Mr. Gagic, this is a document dated the

25     18th of October, 1991.  1st Military District.  It's an information by

Page 17138

 1     the security organ.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Friedman.

 3             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Your Honour, I believe we haven't had a foundation

 4     as to the arming of Arkan's Men.  I may have missed that.  I would like

 5     to raise that though.  In case that's true.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I leave it to Mr. Bakrac.  If there's no foundation,

 7     then, of course, the probative value is -- may be affected by that.

 8             MS. FRIEDMAN:  And the document may be leading in that case.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could we first address the --

10             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  If we first address the foundation and then look at

12     the document.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honour, we heard

15     that this witness has personal knowledge about the arming and additional

16     arming, and the arming of Arkan.  The witness worked in the MUP.  And

17     before I show this document, I'm going to ask the witness if --

18        Q.   Witness, did you ever, in the field, while you were staying,

19     between October 1991 and April -- and April 1992, have knowledge as to

20     whether Arkan and his Serbian Volunteer Guard were receiving weapons from

21     the MUP of the Republic of Serbia?

22        A.   I don't have -- or didn't have such information.  And in view of

23     the type of weaponry, it's not very ...

24        Q.   The Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia, did it

25     have mines and explosive devices?

Page 17139

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Did the MUP of the Republic of Serbia have Zoljas, Osas and

 3     military weapons at its disposal?

 4        A.   No.

 5             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we now look at

 6     this information by the security organ of the military.

 7        Q.   And while we're waiting --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Meanwhile, Ms. Friedman, to say that there was

 9     nothing said about the base of knowledge.  Of course, the witness

10     testified that what he observed what happened at the depot where the

11     Serbian Volunteer Guards received their supplies, where he said once they

12     had a situation when he went for some additional, that he saw -- so there

13     was some foundation, at least, for part of the --

14             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes, Your Honour.  I believed it was a different

15     unit, not the Serbian Volunteer Guard, but I would have go back to the

16     spot --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just check that.  Okay.  If that's the case,

18     then I may have been confused.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Mr. Gagic, what is being referred to here is information obtained

22     through some lieutenant in the reserves.

23             And can we focus on the second paragraph now where it says:

24             "During several consecutive contacts with Arkan, the above named

25     stated that the weaponry, ammunition and the MES mines and explosives had

Page 17140

 1     been supplied by the MUP and the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of

 2     Serbia ..."

 3             I'm just going to stop here for a second just to ask you what the

 4     abbreviation, MES, M-E-S, stands for.

 5        A.   MES is an abbreviation for mines and explosives.  These would be

 6     trip mines and other types of explosive devices.

 7        Q.   I'm going to ask you again, did the MUP have these kind of

 8     explosive devices in its arsenal?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Mr. Gagic, it goes on to say here that this person found out from

11     Arkan that he was distributing these devices to the TO Staffs of Erdut,

12     Sarvas and Borovo Selo.  And they say that records of the issued weapons

13     should be kept and updated.

14             Did you ever, during your stay in that area, have the opportunity

15     to see or to hear that Arkan was distributing these weapons to the Erdut,

16     Sarvas and Borovo Selo TOs?

17        A.   I am not aware that Arkan was in a position or that he had

18     weapons and other combat equipment that he was distributing to the

19     Territorial Defence.  After all, he himself was directly being supplied

20     through the Territorial Defence.  So that in reading and looking at this

21     document, I think that this is a re-telling of second-hand information,

22     and the data seems to be inaccurate.  It says here:  In the former Erdut

23     military training centre.  That was never that

24     centre.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Gagic, did you have an opportunity while you were

Page 17141

 1     there to see what the relations between Arkan and the Novi Sad Corps were

 2     like?

 3        A.   Arkan's relations with the Novi Sad Corps Command and

 4     lower-ranking officers of that corps was professional.  It was quite

 5     decent.  He conducted himself as a subordinate.  He never strayed outside

 6     of the system and organisation for conducting armed conflict and armed

 7     combat, rather, he performed tasks as ordered.

 8        Q.   While you were in Erdut, did you have the opportunity to see if

 9     anyone from the Novi Sad Corps came to that TO training centre in Erdut?

10        A.   Yes, yes.  I would see a number of officers from the Novi Sad

11     Corps there.  A couple of times, I also saw the security officer of the

12     Novi Sad Corps, Colonel Kosutic.  So he was the chief of the security

13     organ of the Novi Sad Corps.  I would see Generals Biorcevic and

14     Ivanovic, and, later -- actually, I never had the opportunity to see

15     General Bratic in person myself.

16        Q.   And do you know where the command of the Novi Sad Corps was?

17        A.   The command of the Novi Sad Corps was on a ship which was called

18     Kozara.  At the time, when I went to visit the ship on two occasions, it

19     was in Erdut.  It was anchored there.  Whether it moved from that place,

20     as it's a vessel, this is something that I could not assert.

21        Q.   Did you have a chance, as you told us that you were discharging

22     military police duties, did you have an opportunity to see Arkan or his

23     officers going to the Novi Sad Corps Command?

24        A.   Yes, yes.  I had the opportunity to see Arkan and his officers

25     going to the Novi Sad Corps Command on several occasions, because I knew

Page 17142

 1     where the command was located, so I could see vehicles departing and

 2     people as well.  These were lower-ranked officers and Arkan himself.

 3        Q.   Mr. Gagic, during the time you spent in Erdut and -- both at the

 4     centre and later on when you moved to Saponia, did you see any officials

 5     of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia on the ground; or were you aware

 6     that he would come to visit Arkan and this Novi Sad Corps centre?

 7        A.   Except for Radovan Stojicic, Badza, who was on the ground anyway,

 8     I did not have an opportunity to see any of the higher-ranking

 9     representatives of the Serbian MUP.

10        Q.   Mr. Gagic, do you know whether Radovan Stojicic, Badza, Arkan,

11     and anyone else ever received any sort of award from the Novi Sad Corps?

12        A.   I know that immediately after the termination of combat

13     operations in Vukovar, perhaps five or six days later, after the

14     termination of combat operations in Vukovar, the Novi Sad Corps Command

15     distributed gifts to the deserving participants in the final operations

16     in Vukovar.

17             I believe that on that occasion there was a dinner held at the

18     wine cellar of Saponia.  That was the restaurant of the Saponia.  Wine

19     factory.  I was present but I was not present during the distribution of

20     these gifts because I was a bit late for the dinner because I had other

21     obligations, and I'm not sure if that was the moment when these awards or

22     gifts were given to them.  These were weapons.

23        Q.   I would like us to see 1D2309 while we are discussing this.

24             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I believe that this should be under

25     seal because -- or perhaps not.  1D2309.

Page 17143

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, if you say that it should perhaps be

 3     under seal or perhaps not, then, out of an abundance of caution, we'll

 4     put it under seal.  But it would be appreciated if you would have

 5     prepared your position a bit more precisely.

 6             Please proceed.  And this document provisionally is dealt with as

 7     a confidential document.

 8             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise.  It

 9     seemed to me -- but I will check by the next break.  I apologise for

10     creating confusion.

11        Q.   Mr. Gagic --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Should we move in private session for this purpose

13     or not?  I do not know what the possible reasons for confidentiality of

14     the document are.  Is this about content or about handwriting or

15     whatever?

16             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you allow -- I

17     apologise.  My only dilemma is that I believe that the provenance of this

18     document --

19             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...

20             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] It comes from Mr. Stanisic --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Try to find out.  We provisionally will go

22     into private session.

23             MS. FRIEDMAN:  We're aware of no reason it should be under seal

24     and have the same information that the -- that it is from Mr. Stanisic.

25             So unless the Defence team sees a reason --

Page 17144

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, you'll perhaps ...

 2             MR. JORDASH:  I have no further answers at this moment, but I can

 3     speak to Mr. Stanisic in the break and find out if there's anything.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I have not heard of any compelling reason why we

 5     should deal with it confidentially.  Mr. Bakrac apparently doesn't know.

 6     Mr. Jordash has no specific reasons.  Ms. Friedman can't tell us.

 7             We will deal with the document in open session unless you

 8     indicate that we should not.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  We can see no reason either for it to --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we -- Ms. Friedman.

11             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Just on a separate matter.  There doesn't seem to

12     be a translation uploaded.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, then only part of the public will know what it

14     is about.

15             MS. FRIEDMAN:  And we are aware that there was a translation in

16     e-court previously provided by the Defence.  But just on that note, we

17     actually had it re-translated because there was a word that seemed

18     inaccurate.  So we could provide that by e-mail for the parties to upload

19     perhaps in the next break.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  I do not know what the questions will be,

21     but, of course, there should be a translation.

22             Let's first listen to the questions that Mr. Bakrac will put.

23             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if it may be of

24     assistance, on page 2 of this document we can find the translation.  This

25     is how it was included in e-court, and this is information I got from my

Page 17145

 1     learned friend from the other Defence team.

 2        Q.   So, Mr. Gagic, the date is the 23rd -- the 12th Corps Command.

 3     The date is the 23rd of November, 1991, and the place is Dalj.  And as we

 4     have the translation now, I will read it as it's a short document.

 5             "In sign of recognition for the successful co-operation and

 6     direct participation in combats for the liberation of Borovo, I am

 7     awarding the ... weapon as a war trophy to the most successful leaders of

 8     the Territorial Defence of the Serbian area of Slavonia, Baranja, and

 9     Western Srem as follows.

10             "Radovan Stojicic, Badza, the commander of the TO of Slavonia,

11     Baranja, and Western Srem, a hunting rifle, serial number ..."

12             Number two, Zivko Trajkovic, deputy commander of the

13     Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, a hunting

14     rifle with the following serial number.

15             "And, Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, the commander of the special

16     volunteers' squad of the TO Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, a light

17     machine-gun" with the following serial number.

18             "Signed by the commander, Major-General, Andrija Biorcevic."

19             Is this -- or was this the occasion and were these the awards

20     that you mentioned which were distributed at a dinner held after the fall

21     of Vukovar?

22        A.   These were the weapons that were distributed and these were

23     awards that were given out during the dinner.  But as I said, I was not

24     present during the distribution of the awards because I was late.  But

25     once I joined the dinner, I heard from those present that the commander

Page 17146

 1     of -- Major-General Andrija Biorcevic did distribute these weapons as

 2     gifts.

 3             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I see my learned friend

 4     Mr. Jordash is on his feet.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Only because I think this is already an exhibit,

 6     P3010.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll verify that.

 8             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Then we

 9     shall move on.

10        Q.   Mr. Gagic, please tell us, after you transferred to Erdut, you

11     told us that, in terms of organisation, you were in charge of the control

12     of the Bogojevo bridge.  Were you personally in charge of any other tasks

13     or duties?

14        A.   Well, in addition to my occasional presence at the bridge and the

15     assistance I provided to unit members when they needed it, I also had a

16     role as an advisor and instructor.  I was helping to constitute local

17     police forces.  When I say "the local police," what I mean is the

18     Secretariat of the Interior Vukovar, with a seat in Dalj, and also the

19     contacts that they needed to establish with already established police

20     stations in the area that we could freely move around.  That is to say,

21     the area ranging between Vukovar and Osijek.

22        Q.   Mr. Witness, let me just return to the celebratory dinner after

23     the fall of Vukovar.  There have been various testimonies.  What I'm

24     interested in is whether this was, conditionally speaking, the only

25     celebration, if I may call it so, or were there any others?

Page 17147

 1        A.   Such festive dinners were organised on a number of occasions

 2     during this period.  Several times they were held at Saponia, where I was

 3     quartered, but also in other places.  A few humanitarian concerts were

 4     organised, in order to boost the people's morale and to provide some

 5     relaxation during the ravages of war.

 6        Q.   Mr. Gagic, did you know who Franko Simatovic is, at that time;

 7     and did you know what he looked like?

 8        A.   Up until then we had never met in person but I knew what he

 9     looked like from various meetings which both of us attended.  And the

10     same is true of Mr. Stanisic.  I knew who they were and I knew what they

11     looked like, but I never had a chance to be in any sort of direct

12     communication with them, which means that they did not have a chance to

13     know who I was.

14        Q.   When you say earlier meetings, what period do you have in mind?

15     When were these meetings held?

16        A.   Well, I mean the period before 1991.  I mean 1985 or 1986 or

17     1987.  Because, as I said, I had completed the crime prevention school

18     and many members of their service were the same generation as me during

19     our education.  So I had a chance to communicate with them, to socialise

20     with them.  During state celebrations or holidays, I had a chance to see

21     them, and so on and so forth.  Therefore, I knew them by sight, and I

22     also knew them because of their position.

23        Q.   Mr. Gagic, you mentioned the dinners held after the fall of

24     Vukovar and the awards that were distributed.

25             Now let me ask you first about those which you attended.  Did you

Page 17148

 1     ever see Franko Simatovic at any of these award ceremonies?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Did you ever hear of a dinner or celebration that you did not

 4     attend but which you heard Franko Simatovic did attend?

 5        A.   No, I did not hear that on any occasion Franko Simatovic was

 6     present at any of those dinners, or in the territory of Slavonia at all.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Gagic.

 8             Can you please tell me the following.  You have told us that you

 9     provided assistance in addition to deploying units in positions at the

10     Bogojevo bridge.  You said that, on the basis of your experience, you

11     helped to establish police stations.  Did you do any other sort of work?

12     Did you go out into the field, and so on?

13        A.   As -- in terms of organisation and operation, the police units

14     had not been fully established but just a little bit in terms of regular

15     policemen who were maintaining public law and order.  And as the crime

16     prevention police had not been established, traffic police only to a

17     certain extent in the sector where I was, I, in fact, was involved in

18     organising all of that.  And at the orders of the TO Staff, through the

19     commander of my unit, I occasionally visited places where some incidents

20     of security interest took place, including the sites of some crimes.

21        Q.   Mr. Gagic, before we have a look at the next document, please

22     tell us about Saponia, where you were accommodated.  Was the TO command

23     also seated there?  And who was staying there?

24        A.   As for Saponia, the unit that I was a member of, with the

25     belonging staff and leadership, was accommodated there.  The commander of

Page 17149

 1     the TO Staff with his deputy and assistant and members of the special

 2     anti-terrorist unit, who were securing the commander and his deputy and

 3     also performed other tasks, were all accommodated there.

 4             There were several rooms in which occasionally people who had

 5     something to do with the TO staff stayed.  There was a man who was a

 6     retired army colonel and who was in charge of de-mining, so he

 7     occasionally came and helped us with de-mining certain areas that we

 8     suspected included some mines and explosives.

 9             So mainly it was the unit staff and occasionally people that we

10     engaged to perform certain special activities because we didn't have

11     people who were trained to do that.

12        Q.   The individual who was charged with training people in mine

13     clearance, would he also go to the training centre in Erdut to conduct

14     that same sort of training?

15        A.   He was a retired army officer who we hired so that we would not

16     be placing additional burden on the military personnel who had too much

17     work to do anyhow on the front line, and he was supposed to check the

18     terrain around Bogojevski bridge for any possible mines, because we

19     didn't rule out that possibility that there were mines.  He also had to

20     do the same checks for mines of our billeting quarters and the facilities

21     where Arkan's unit and the 101st Centre were housed.

22             You see, around the area of the winery where these various units

23     were housed, there were other facilities that were not directly connected

24     to the work of the centre.

25        Q.   Mr. Gagic, let us look at Exhibit P1059.


Page 17150

 1             And while we're waiting for it to appear, Mr. Gagic, apparently

 2     the exhibit is a report of the Federal Secretariat of National Defence of

 3     the security department of May 1992.

 4              MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] And it is under seal, Your Honours.

 5     Can we move into private session before it appears.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17151











11 Pages 17151-17158 redacted. Private session.
















Page 17159

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

16             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Gagic, I just want to check the transcript.

18             You said Radovan Stojicic - this is line 23 on page 53 - he was

19     the commander of the TO staff until the end of 2001.  And then you

20     said -- in what year was he no longer the commander?

21        A.   I think perhaps the error was mine.  Actually, it was until 1991.

22     Not 2001.  So he was the commander until 1991.  Not 2001.

23        Q.   And what did Mr. Radovan Stojicic, Badza, become after that?

24        A.   Mr. Radovan Stojicic, Badza, after that, became the chief of the

25     State Security Department.


Page 17160

 1        Q.   And did he come to Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem after

 2     being appointed the chief of the service and the deputy minister in 1991?

 3        A.   Yes.  Radovan Stojicic continued to visit the Eastern Slavonia

 4     area.  I saw him there personally on several occasions.

 5        Q.   And do you know why he went to that area in early 1992?

 6        A.   In order to effect the takeover of duty with the newly appointed

 7     commander of the TO staff, Zivko Trajkovic, and this process of hand-over

 8     of duty lasted for quite some time.

 9        Q.   In 1992, in that area, were there any events of interest from the

10     security point of view?

11        A.   Well, in that area, there are always events that were of security

12     interest, so perhaps you could be a little bit more specific.

13        Q.   Are you aware whether, in 1992, the territory of the Republic of

14     Serbia was threatened; and, if so, what do you know about it?

15        A.   I know that central Serbia, or, actually, the territory of the

16     Republic of Serbia, was under threat because of the incursion of a

17     terrorist group from the area of the Republic of Croatia.  The name of

18     the action was Amfibija, and the territory where they came was in the

19     area of Sombor and Apatin in a vehicle that was able to cross water and

20     move on land, and the purpose was to commit a terrorist act, to blow up

21     the -- the Erdut bridge close to which my unit was deployed.

22        Q.   And do you know who led this action; and, if you do know, who was

23     in that group of people who participated in that action?

24        A.   The action was personally led by Radovan Stojicic, Badza,

25     although he was already the chief of the department and deputy minister.

Page 17161

 1     The action was carried out by members of the special anti-terrorist unit,

 2     the SAJ, by members of the local police, and a certain number of police

 3     members and volunteers from the Krajina were also engaged in it.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Friedman.

 5             MS. FRIEDMAN:  I just wanted to note for the record that there is

 6     nothing in the witness's summary that would suggest that he would provide

 7     this evidence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac.

 9             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you would permit me

10     to ...

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, it's -- it's on the record.

12     Ms. Friedman noted it.  I also noted that the last portion of the

13     evidence that what's the basis of the knowledge of the witness is totally

14     unclear.  I'm not soliciting you to -- I'm not soliciting to or inviting

15     you to clarify that.  But I just put that on the record as well.

16     That's --

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the summary, it

19     states that he was going to talk about Radovan Stojicic, Badza, and

20     perhaps it's my mistake that I did not inform the other side in more

21     detail.  But if you permit me, I'm going to ask the witness about what he

22     knows.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I think you should have started with that.  But, of

24     course, to say, to testify about Badza, of course, that would be good for

25     anything between one and 50 hours of testimony, without further

Page 17162

 1     precision.

 2             Well, if you consider it is of such importance that we should

 3     know it -- you've asked for three and a half hours.  That's what is

 4     granted.  Make your own priorities, I would say.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Witness, you spoke about this Amfibija action and the incursion.

 8     Where do have you this information from?

 9        A.   The incursion is something that is well known.  It was covered in

10     the media.  And we also had official information about the incursion of

11     the group.  We were informed as a unit who was securing the bridge, that

12     such a group had made the incursion, and we offered our co-operation that

13     we should engage members of our units in further proceedings so as to

14     neutralise the activities of that terrorist group.

15        Q.   And did you have any direct information from Radovan Stojicic,

16     Badza?

17        A.   Yes, yes.  At the time, we did have that from Radovan Stojicic,

18     Badza, and it was then that we offered to engage our units on those

19     tasks, but he refused.

20        Q.   Mr. Gagic, did you hear from Radovan Stojicic, Badza, about any

21     additional police engagement of police from the Krajina?

22        A.   Yes.  I heard when we offered to participate in the action, and

23     in view of the fact that our area was a high risk one and still a

24     problematic one, there was a problem from Badza -- there was a comment

25     from Badza that he didn't want to weaken the set-up in Slavonia and that

Page 17163

 1     he would engage volunteer policemen from the Krajina, if necessary, and I

 2     think that he actually did engage a group.  Actually, I did know that he

 3     did engage a group of policemen, policemen and volunteers from other

 4     areas of Croatia.

 5        Q.   Mr. Gagic, quite apart from this Amfibija operation, were you

 6     aware of any other alleged events in 1992 which would have required Badza

 7     to engage police -- police forces?

 8        A.   Yes, I am, in fact.

 9             A large protest rally was scheduled for the 9th of March of

10     citizens in Belgrade.  On the 9th of March, a large rally of the

11     opposition forces gathered in Belgrade.  There were great many victims.

12     This happened in 1991.

13             So a year later, they wanted to mark the anniversary of this

14     event, and they wanted to gather many tens of thousands of citizens.

15     This protest rally, in fact, was announced as an attempt to topple the

16     government.

17        Q.   Were certain outside forces engaged at the time?

18        A.   As far as I know, around a thousand policemen were engaged

19     outside of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia.  They were members of the

20     MUP of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

21             The security situation was very precarious because of this

22     particular rally.

23        Q.   Do you know if these policemen hired from the outside were given

24     any sort of documents by Serbian authorities; and, if so, what sort of

25     documents?


Page 17164

 1        A.   They were given official identification papers because, without

 2     them, they would not have been able to work in the Republic of Serbia.

 3     They received the same ID cards as had been given to all members of

 4     public security at the time.

 5             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'd like us to have a

 6     look at D456 now.  It was MFI'd because we were waiting for a

 7     translation.  We have now -- the translation is 2D882.  And can we have

 8     page 47 in B/C/S and 45 in English, in e-court.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document was MFI'd provisionally, under seal,

10     Your Honour.

11             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in that case, can we

12     move into private session, please.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17165











11 Pages 17165-17169 redacted. Private session.
















Page 17170

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

14             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Gagic, what became of the -- of your unit when you returned

16     on the 6th of April, 1992?

17        A.   I went back on my own.  The entire unit stayed back and continued

18     in their previous duties, i.e., providing security to the bridge and

19     checking those passing through there.  And it stayed in that area until

20     October of 2002, by which time most of the old members of that unit had

21     already returned.

22        Q.   I just have to check.  You said October 2002 or was that an

23     error?

24        A.   I apologise.  1992 is what I meant.

25        Q.   Mr. Gagic, you say that some remained.  What do you mean by that?


Page 17171

 1     Did they ...

 2        A.   A part of the unit remained there securing the bridge.  A smaller

 3     part of the unit members was deployed in local police stations in the

 4     area of Slavonia.  When, in October 1992, the unit was sent back, those

 5     policemen wishing to return in these police stations where they were

 6     deployed continued working there.  I mean in Slavonia.

 7             After the withdrawal of all Serbian forces from Slavonia, some of

 8     these policemen remained working there under Croatian authorities in

 9     police stations that were situated in the territory of Croatia.

10        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Gagic.  When you came here to The Hague, you

11     brought us your military booklet to the proofing session; is that

12     correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we could now have a

15     look at Exhibit 2D1056.

16             I apologise, Your Honours.  We have sent this for translation.

17     We will -- no.  I'm sorry.  I have been notified that we have managed to

18     obtain the translation, so if we could please show the next page.

19        Q.   Is that your military booklet?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Mr. Gagic, is each of your military engagement from the date of

22     issue -- or let me first ask you:  When was this military booklet issued

23     to you?

24        A.   This military booklet was issued to me at the moment when I was

25     capable of serving the army.  That is to say, 1971.  My compulsory

Page 17172

 1     military service is recorded here, as well as my promotions during the

 2     regular service.  Then my participation in manoeuvres after I had served

 3     compulsory military service.  Then my deployment while I was a member of

 4     the reserve forces.  And also my participation in the Territorial Defence

 5     of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

 6             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we please now show the last page

 7     of this document.  And can we please zoom in.  Also the right half of the

 8     screen, please.

 9        Q.   Mr. Gagic, if I understand this properly, this period is recorded

10     as participation in the war when you were attached to the TO Staff in

11     Erdut.  What does this document represent as a piece of evidence?  I'm

12     trying not to ask you any leading questions but can you tell us what is

13     recorded in such booklets?  It is participation in what sort of

14     institutions?

15        A.   This booklet contains a record of all military engagement of the

16     holder of this ID, so all the activities that the holder was involved in

17     are recorded here, if this had to do with military organs.

18        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Gagic.

19             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would tender 2D1056

20     into evidence.  And for the Prosecution, I can say that Mr. Gagic is in

21     possession of the original.  He showed us this once he arrived here.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Friedman.

23             MS. FRIEDMAN:  We have no objection.  We will consider whether we

24     would like to see the original and will communicate that, if necessary.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Gagic, would you be willing to provide the

Page 17173

 1     original for inspection to the parties and to the Chamber?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I can do that immediately.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  If the usher could then receive it from -- and from

 4     the witness and give it to the Registrar so that it's available for

 5     inspection by the parties.

 6             Yes, that might take some time to look through it, but it's --

 7     it's not lost.

 8             So, therefore, please proceed, Mr. Bakrac, meanwhile.

 9             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

10        Q.   Mr. Gagic, from April 1992 when you returned to Belgrade onwards,

11     can you just briefly tell us what duties did you discharge?

12        A.   After my return to Belgrade, I worked until 1996 as head of the

13     section for prevention of violent crime at the Belgrade SUP.

14             In 1996, I was assigned to the chief of the section for

15     preventing violent crimes at the seat of the ministry.  That is to say,

16     the MUP of the Republic of Serbia, where I remained until 2004.

17             In 2004, I was appointed chief of the service for investigation

18     of war crimes in the MUP of Serbia.  I stayed there until 2006, when I

19     retired.

20        Q.   Mr. Gagic, in the period between 2004 and 2006, did you do any

21     operative work that had to do with the arrest of the Yellow Wasps?

22        A.   Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, the summary of the expected testimony

24     tells the Chamber that whilst the witness was in charge of the war crimes

25     department, proceedings were lodged against members of the Skorpioni and

Page 17174

 1     Zuti.  And I wonder to what extent there is any dispute about proceedings

 2     instituted against members of those organisations.  Unless, of course,

 3     there would be certain details which you would like to present.

 4             But, Ms. Friedman, is there any dispute about such proceedings

 5     being instituted against member of the Skorpions and the Wasps?

 6             MS. FRIEDMAN:  There's no dispute about proceedings being

 7     instituted.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed, Mr. --

 9             MS. FRIEDMAN:  In addition, the witness appears to have some

10     papers in front of him.  Could we inquire what they are?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Or to be put away.

12             Witness, you apparently have some papers in front of you.  Could

13     you tell us what they are.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have here in front of me the

15     information about persons from these two groups who were arrested.  These

16     were the Skorpions and the Yellow Wasps.  And I have it as an

17     aide-memoire, and I can remove it, if needed.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you would please remove it, and if you want

19     to consult it, then please tell us.

20             Mr. Bakrac, the fact that proceedings were instituted against

21     these members of those units is not in dispute.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will spend a very

24     short time on this, maybe three or four questions, because it is not so

25     important.  Just the basics.

Page 17175

 1        Q.   When you were involved in the arrest of Yellow Wasps, did you

 2     learn whether they had any connections with the MUP of the Republic of

 3     Serbia?  At the time of the commission of these crimes or later on, did

 4     they have any connections, any links, with the MUP or the State Security

 5     Service of the Republic of Serbia?

 6        A.   All the information that I am aware of seems to suggest that

 7     members of the Yellow Wasps never had anything to do with either the

 8     members of the MUP or with members of the State Security Department.  If

 9     they had individual contacts, then it's something that I do not know.

10        Q.   Did you become aware in the course of your operative work that

11     one of the accused and prosecuted, Branko Popovic, who was also known as

12     Major Marko Pavlovic, in Zvornik, in 1992, had any links or connections

13     whatsoever with the MUP or the DB of the Republic of Serbia?

14        A.   I am not aware of any links he would have with either the MUP or

15     the DB of the Republic of Serbia, nor was such a link established during

16     investigation.

17        Q.   You also participated -- oh, I'm sorry.

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I see that my learned friend is on

19     her feet.

20             MS. FRIEDMAN:  I just wanted to seek some clarification.  I know

21     Mr. Bakrac has shortened his questions.  But I don't think it's clear on

22     the record exactly which investigations this witness oversaw or was

23     involved in.

24             Maybe we should get back to that for a little bit.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, that proceedings were instituted is

Page 17176

 1     agreed, but what investigation the witness is talking about seems to be

 2     not clear at this moment.

 3             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Witness, in what way did you participate in the investigation

 5     that had to do with the arrests of the Yellow Wasps?

 6        A.   Well, I arrested the members of the Yellow Wasps after I received

 7     a request from the prosecutor for war crimes to do that.  And, as far as

 8     I know, the war crimes prosecutor of the Republic of Serbia received the

 9     necessary information from ICTY.

10        Q.   When you reviewed the files, did you have any interviews with the

11     arrested persons?

12        A.   Well, after an arrest, the principle is to interview each

13     individual in order to establish his identity, his possible involvement

14     in the relevant incident, then a report is drawn up which includes all

15     the relevant information, and then --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I get the impression that you would like to answer

17     the question with yes.  The question was:  Did you interview persons

18     arrested.  Did you?  Then the answer is yes.  If not, then the answer is

19     no.

20             Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.

21             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

22             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Did any of the persons say in these interviews that they were

24     members of the MUP or the DB of the Republic of Serbia at any point?

25        A.   [Interpretation] No.

Page 17177

 1        Q.   As for the documents and files which you received from the

 2     prosecutor's office, did any of that suggest that there were links

 3     between any of them and the MUP or the DB of the Republic of Serbia?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Gagic.  In order to shorten --

 6             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Oh, I see that my learned friend is

 7     already on her feet.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Friedman.

 9             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes.  I just wanted to seek some clarification

10     because the documents that we have are about investigations in around

11     1993.  And the witness is apparently referring to proceedings that

12     happened when he was in charge in 2004 or so.  So if there some

13     documentation of the later proceedings, then we could know exactly which

14     individuals we're talking about and which incidents, in order to know

15     what his investigation could or could not have revealed.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course, you could clarify that in

17     cross-examination, Ms. Friedman.

18             But, Mr. Bakrac, you know already that it's a matter which is of

19     some interest to Ms. Friedman.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to finish

22     in the next few minutes, and then I will, with your leave, allow my

23     learned friend Ms. Friedman to clarify that.  And I allow that there have

24     been differences between arrests and some procedures between those that

25     were conducted in 1993 and 2004.

Page 17178

 1             So let me ask the question again.

 2        Q.   As for the Skorpions, I suppose that, once again, you had files

 3     and you conducted interviews?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Well, let me try to help my learned friend Ms. Friedman.

 6             As for the Skorpions, what crime did this have to do with; and at

 7     what time was the crime committed?

 8        A.   It was the crime which occurred in the territory of Bosnia and

 9     Herzegovina on Mount Treskavica, and it occurred in 1995.

10        Q.   During your operative work, that is to say, taking statements and

11     receiving files from the prosecutor's office, did you establish any sort

12     of link between this group, i.e., the Skorpions, and the Ministry of the

13     Interior of the Republic of Serbia or the State Security Department of

14     the Republic of Serbia?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Mr. Gagic, before I thank the Bench for the time allotted, let me

17     just ask you something that I may have omitted.

18             You mentioned a member of the Novi Sad Corps Ivanovic, who used

19     to come to the training centre of the TO in Erdut.  Can you tell us

20     whether you know his first name and whether you know the position he held

21     in the Novi Sad Corps?

22        A.   His first name is Bora.  Possibly Borislav, though I think it is

23     just Bora, and I think that he was the Chief of Staff in the command of

24     the Novi Sad Corps, which means that he was, by virtue of that position,

25     also the deputy of Major Biorcevic.

Page 17179

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  General Biorcevic.

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Your Honours, if you

 3     would allow me just an additional two minutes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Two minutes.  Please use them ...

 5             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   Mr. Gagic, do you know whether the Skorpions were engaged in

 7     Kosovo in 1999?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Do you know how they were engaged; and how did they arrive in

10     Kosovo?

11        A.   They were sent to Kosovo as the reserve forces, the reservist

12     part of the special anti-terrorist unit.

13        Q.   Of what MUP?

14        A.   The MUP of the Republic of Serbia.

15        Q.   Did they have this status previously or did they get that status

16     at that time; and, if so, in what way?

17        A.   They received that status immediately before their entry into

18     Kosovo.  They even waited for about 20 days for their status to be

19     determined.  And they reserved such a status at the proposal of

20     Vlastimir Djordjevic.  The reason for that was that the commander of the

21     SAJ, Zivko Trajkovic, insisted that their status had to be determined and

22     that they -- he did not wish the presence of any paramilitaries in the

23     zone where he was conducting operations.

24        Q.   And if I understood you correctly, after that, they got a status

25     within the public security service; is that correct?


Page 17180

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  These were

 3     the two minutes that I asked for.  Thanks a lot.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Gagic.  These were all the questions I had for

 5     you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.  One matter.  Document

 7     2D1056, which is the military booklet, has not been assigned a number

 8     yet.  Madam Registrar, in order to have it marked for identification it

 9     receives number?

10             THE REGISTRAR:  The number will be for 2D1056, D694,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  D694 is marked for identification.  The original is

13     in the hands of Madam Registrar at this moment, available for inspections

14     by the parties.

15             Then I would like to briefly spend some time on scheduling

16     issues.

17             It was confirmed to me that we could sit next week, Monday, that

18     is, the 13th of February, in the afternoon, quarter past 2.00 until 7.00.

19     That we could sit on Tuesday, the 14th, also in the afternoon, quarter

20     past 2.00.  And then we would sit on Wednesday, 9.00 -- from 9.00 to a

21     quarter to 2.00.

22             As far as witnesses are concerned, how much time would you need

23     for Witness DFS-011?

24             MR. JORDASH:  Two hours, please.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Two hours.

Page 17181

 1             Prosecution?

 2             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Three and a half, please.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Which would bring us well into Tuesday already.

 4             Would the next witness, which will be a Stanisic witness, be

 5     ready on from Tuesday or Wednesday next week?

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  All the formalities have been completed --

 8             MR. JORDASH:  We're expecting -- Your Honour, yes.  We're

 9     expecting him to arrive on Sunday, we're expecting to proof him on

10     Monday, ready to begin on Tuesday.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             Mr. Bakrac, gives this sufficient guidance for the witnesses who

13     come after that, because they certainly will not be -- how much time

14     would you need with your witness, Mr. Jordash, approximately?

15             MR. JORDASH:  An afternoon.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  An afternoon.

17             MR. JORDASH:  So three hours, approximately.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Which means that the witnesses coming after

19     that, Mr. Bakrac, will certainly not start the testimony next week.

20     We'll first have to see whether we can finish the testimony of the

21     witness, which is unlikely to happen.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.  And we're still waiting for an estimate, I

23     think, from the Prosecution, so -- on that witness.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But I think Mr. Bakrac now has sufficient

25     guidance as not to bring in witnesses too early, and we know what to


Page 17182

 1     expect.

 2             Then we'd like to see you back on Monday afternoon, Mr. Gagic.

 3     We'll start then at quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon.

 4             I again instruct you that you should not speak to anyone about

 5     your testimony, whether the testimony you have given yesterday and today,

 6     or whether that is the testimony still to be given next week.

 7             Is that clear?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you may follow the usher.  And I'll see whether

10     on my list of procedural matters there's anything that could not wait

11     until Monday.

12             The witness may be escorted out of the courtroom.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  There's one brief matter, Mr. Jordash, I'd like to

15     raise, which is about Witness Pelevic.

16             You have objected during the examination of that witness that the

17     Prosecution had violated Rule 90(H)(ii).  On the 31st of January, you

18     stated, when asked, that you did not seek an immediate ruling on your

19     objections but would make further motions on the matter at a later time.

20     The parties were instructed to at least discuss the matters among

21     themselves.  Chamber staff received a copy of an e-mail asking some

22     questions from the Prosecution.

23             Is there any update to be reported at this moment?

24             MR. JORDASH:  No.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'd like to hear from you as soon as possible,

Page 17183

 1     because we have to, sooner or later, find out whether your objections

 2     still stand or not.  Well, the objections may stand, but what remedy you

 3     are seeking.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Well -- yes, we'll discuss it further.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And if you seek a remedy, it's about what

 6     questions exactly that were put to that witness.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Yeah.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes?

 9             Then we adjourn, and we will resume on Monday, the

10     13th of February, a quarter past 2.00 in this same courtroom, II.

11                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 13th day of

13                           February, 2012, at 2.15 p.m.