Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17516

 1                           Tuesday, 21 February 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

 8             This is the case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus

 9     Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             There are a few matters we have to deal with, but I'd first like

12     to give an opportunity to Mr. Jordash to raise a matter he wishes to

13     raise.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, thank you.

15             Unfortunately, we return to the issue of the accused's health and

16     a request to Your Honours to intervene at this stage to order the

17     Registry to serve immediately the accused's medical records relating to

18     his psychiatric treatment to date, since being incarcerated in the UNDU.

19             On the 28th of October, 2011, the Defence requested the medical

20     files from OLAD since it hadn't received any medical records since the

21     20th of September, 2010.  Your Honours will recall that we made a first

22     request for medical records in early 2010.  The Defence made a further

23     request on the 28th of November, 2011, since the first submission of

24     those notes was incomplete.

25             The next day, OLAD provided further medical files.

Page 17517

 1             On the 24th of January, 2012, the Defence orally applied to the

 2     Trial Chamber seeking assistance to have certain questions relating to

 3     Mr. Stanisic's treatment answered, in large part because we could not

 4     obtain or had not obtained an answer on the requests for records from

 5     OLAD.  On the 26th of January, 2012, the Trial Chamber ordered the

 6     reporting medical officer to answer certain questions, particularly in

 7     regards to the psychiatric services provided to Mr. Stanisic.

 8             On the 30th of January, 2012, the RMO responded to the questions,

 9     noting inter alia that Mr. Stanisic receives medication and

10     psychotherapeutic services from Dr. Petrovic every four to six weeks.

11             On the basis of these answers, and on the same day, the Defence

12     wrote to OLAD requesting disclosure of any and all records relating to

13     Mr. Stanisic's treatment by Dr. Petrovic.  And I note at this point, by

14     30th January, 2012, that request had, in effect, been outstanding for the

15     best part of 18 months.

16             On the 2nd of February, 2012, OLAD responded, and agreed to

17     provide these records specifically.

18             In lieu of the immediate service of those records, OLAD provided

19     a summary compiled by Dr. Petrovic which indicated, amongst other

20     aspects, that her view was that Mr. Stanisic's treatment, in particular

21     his psychotherapy, was insufficient.  She also indicated, contrary to

22     what had been reported to the reporting medical officer, that she met

23     with Mr. Stanisic every seven weeks and not every four to six weeks.

24             There have been several attempts by the Stanisic Defence,

25     authorised by Mr. Stanisic and instructed by Mr. Stanisic, to obtain

Page 17518

 1     Dr. Petrovic's records.  In sum, the Defence has not received those

 2     records.  And despite numerous requests and despite indicating our deep

 3     concern about Dr. Petrovic's stated view, that Mr. Stanisic's treatment,

 4     his psychotherapy, was insufficient, we still await those records.

 5             In the absence of those records, we, the authorised

 6     representatives of Mr. Stanisic, must advance on the basis of what we

 7     know.  And what we know from Ms. Petrovic is that it is her view that

 8     Mr. Stanisic's treatment within the UNDU is insufficient, in relation to

 9     his serious psychiatric condition.

10             Your Honours will appreciate that failure to provide sufficient

11     medical services is in direct contravention of the UN General Assembly

12     Resolution 44/111; it is in direct violation of numerous international

13     instruments, from Article 25(1) of The Universal Declaration of Human

14     Rights, the ICCPR, and the Human Rights Committee and its various

15     declarations.  As I have indicated, we must proceed, in the absence of

16     notes which we have persistently and consistently requested, on the basis

17     of what we know, which is Dr. Petrovic's view.  And that is why we now

18     seek, as the last resort, Your Honours' intervention at this stage.

19             We also note that in the past, when requesting medical notes and

20     querying whether other medical notes have existed, the Registry have

21     responded rapidly or relatively rapidly.  It is with this issue, where

22     the prima facie evidence indicates that Mr. Stanisic's treatment is

23     insufficient, where the Registry have, if I may use colloquialism,

24     dragged their heels, to say the least.  And we ask for Your Honours'

25     intervention at this stage because it is the least severe remedy.

Page 17519

 1             Other remedies which we are at the door of requesting is a

 2     hearing on the fitness of the accused, fitness to participate and fitness

 3     to be detained; two, an immediate suspension of the trial proceedings

 4     pending a proper assessment of Mr. Stanisic's treatment within the UNDU;

 5     three, an immediate release within Holland or in Belgrade to allow him to

 6     obtain adequate medical treatment himself; and finally, a review of the

 7     Registry's refusal to provide reasonable information to the accused.  And

 8     that application will involve an application to investigate whether the

 9     Registry are seeking deliberately to conceal bad medical care in the

10     UNDU.

11             And so we request at this stage that Your Honours order the

12     disclosure of those notes forth with.  It relates to this trial and its

13     ability to continue in light of Mr. Stanisic's fitness, and I do use the

14     word fitness.  It's not an all or nothing affair.  Is he fit to

15     participate in the Strugar sense is one question.  Is his health

16     deteriorating as a result of the proceedings is another question which, I

17     submit, engages Your Honours.  Is he fit to be detained in lieu of the

18     medical treatment being offered is another question which engages

19     Your Honours.  Those are questions which we will be forced to pursue.

20     But we are not there.  Where we are is a request to Your Honours to order

21     disclosure of the medical notes forth with.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Those are your submissions.

23             May I take it that the other parties have no specific interest in

24     making submissions on the matter.

25             Mr. Jordash, I took it from your words that you are aware, of

Page 17520

 1     course - that's not new for you - that, of course, the Chamber always has

 2     to keep in mind what is treatment and medical care and what's the impact

 3     on the proceedings, and I think you have addressed us also to explain

 4     what, in this case, at this moment, the link would be.  That's one.

 5             Second, the matter has the attention of the Chamber.  It did not

 6     arise for the first time in these -- since this -- the beginning of this

 7     year.  Please be convinced that the matter has the attention of the

 8     Chamber, and it's -- now your request is clearly on the record.  We'll

 9     consider it.

10             The third -- but that's just a very simple question.  You have

11     focussed on what you say is the opinion of Dr. Petrovic as to the

12     inadequacy or insufficiency of the psychiatric treatment.  Now, may I

13     take it that Mr. Stanisic was more or less aware about the frequency with

14     which he saw Dr. Petrovic.  Has there any -- ever been a request for a --

15     for a more intense psychiatric treatment or has it ever been advised, to

16     your knowledge?  To say, Well, I see a psychiatrist once every six or

17     seven weeks, that's insufficient; could I see a psychiatrist every week

18     or every second week or ...

19             Has ever such a request -- because that's the part of the

20     treatment with which everything starts, I would say.  The -- if you think

21     that you get insufficient or inadequate treatment, you seek better

22     treatment or more adequate treatment.  Has there ever been a request to

23     intensify the contacts with someone who could provide psychiatric care?

24             MR. JORDASH:  The simple answer is, I don't know the answer to

25     that question.  I do know this:  That I've spoken to Mr. Stanisic on a

Page 17521

 1     number of occasions and he would like to see Dr. Petrovic more.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

 3             MR. JORDASH:  He's explained that frustration to me on a number

 4     of occasions.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, whether or not that could be

 6     Dr. Petrovic or not is another matter.  But perhaps that -- that answer

 7     to that question, whether it -- that has ever been expressed, a more

 8     intensified or more frequent consultation with a psychiatrist or

 9     psychologist, whether that has ever been requested, because that would,

10     my view, not ignoring all the matters you're raising, would be the first

11     step if there's any reason to believe that the psychiatric or

12     psychological consultations are insufficient.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I would put it slightly differently to what

14     Your Honour has said.

15             I would say that the first step is for the professionals to

16     indicate to Mr. Stanisic whether he has sufficient treatment.  And I --

17     my experience is that a patient is the worst person to indicate or to

18     assess their own treatment, often.  Especially, if I may say so, men.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's leave this part of the debate where it

20     is.

21             I -- there may be a role for all.  Let's -- it is -- your request

22     is clearly on the record.

23             MR. JORDASH:  Your --

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We have no further questions.  If you'd like to add,

Page 17522

 1     have you an opportunity to do so.  But please be convinced that the

 2     matter has our full attention.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  I've just been passed a note from Mr. Stanisic who

 4     notes:  On a number of occasions I have sought to see Petrovic and the

 5     Court doctor but with no success.

 6             So that may answer Your Honours' question.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, not entirely.  Because the answer is not a

 8     direct answer to the question.  But at least, communication seems to be

 9     far from perfect, to say the least.

10             Yes.

11             Then, in relation to the next witness to be called, I would like

12     to briefly go into private session.

13             No, perhaps I first deal with a matter for which we do not have

14     to go into private session.

15             The Chamber has received the Simatovic urgent Defence request for

16     an adjournment which was filed on the 20th of February of this year.  The

17     Chamber wonders whether an expedited response could be received.

18             Ms. Marcus.

19             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, good afternoon, Your Honours.

20             We could provide our response on Monday.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  On?

22             MS. MARCUS:  Monday.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Not any earlier?  Because in view of the urgency of

24     the request and the preparations the Simatovic Defence will have to make

25     for their next witnesses, is there any way you could respond earlier?

Page 17523

 1             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.  Then we'll do so on Friday.  Is

 2     that acceptable?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  What about Thursday end of business, would that do?

 4             MS. MARCUS:  As you -- as you wish, Your Honour, yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I put a question to you, whether that ...

 6             MS. MARCUS:  Yes.  We will do so, end of day Thursday.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  End of the day on Thursday.

 8             Mr. Petrovic, just for your information:  Until a decision has

 9     been taken on your motion, you should prepare for calling your witnesses

10     as they were scheduled.  So you cannot anticipate, hoping or expecting,

11     that the motion would be granted and then to have no witnesses here.  You

12     may have noticed that we encouraged the Prosecution to respond very

13     quickly, and the Chamber will also try to deliver its decision as soon as

14     possible; but meanwhile, the trial proceeds as scheduled.  And you should

15     take care of that.

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Microphone not activated] [No interpretation]

17             THE INTERPRETER:  No microphone.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  If you switch on your microphone, that would assist,

19     Mr. Petrovic.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

21             We will do our utmost, but, with your leave, I will try to -- or

22     we will try to do as you say tomorrow.  But give me time until tomorrow,

23     please, to let you know what that will be exactly, whether we will be

24     able to call the first witnesses as listed before or we will have to

25     change something in the order of witnesses.  So please give me time until

Page 17524

 1     tomorrow.  It is quite possible, in view of what you just said, that we

 2     will be forced to change the order of witnesses somewhat, in light of the

 3     situation as described in our motion.

 4             Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please consult with the Prosecution before

 6     you change the order of calling of witnesses, and seek an approach which

 7     will not meet objections by the Prosecution.

 8             I do understand your request to be that you would like to have

 9     until tomorrow not to find out on whether you can present witnesses but

10     in which order you'd like to present them, if that -- if that deviates

11     from the order as scheduled until now.  Because --

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

13             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... yes, please.

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] If you permit, the submission we

15     made yesterday is not manipulative in any way.  We are not trying to

16     achieve anything.  It just reflects the current situation on our Defence.

17     We can seek to apportion blame in various ways, but it's not for me to

18     speak about that now.

19             Quite simply, what was stated yesterday is exactly the situation.

20     Now, in light of what you just said, can I try to see with the lead

21     counsel whether there is another way out, another possibility to meet

22     your instructions and requirements.  However, at this moment I'm not in a

23     position to say any more than what was stated in our submission

24     yesterday.  I kindly ask for your understanding.  Mr. Bakrac is currently

25     with the witness who is supposed to appear tomorrow.  I can only repeat


Page 17525

 1     my request for time until tomorrow for us to be able to state our

 2     position and our possibilities at this moment.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus.

 4             MS. MARCUS:  Yes.  Could I just seek clarification from

 5     Mr. Petrovic that -- that DSF-015 and -16 would most definitely not start

 6     next week.  In other words, if -- if, whatever the Chamber may decide

 7     with regard to the adjournment, other witnesses would be put on the list,

 8     and then you would inform us, if I understand correctly, of those

 9     witnesses by tomorrow.

10             Is that correct?

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I'm not sure my learned friend

12     understood me correctly.

13             I cannot offer now any further information above what our

14     yesterday's submission stated.  And with the Court's leave we will inform

15     you further about our possibilities and our position.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The message of the Chamber was quite clear:

17     That, awaiting a decision on your request, no Court time should be lost

18     by non-availability of witnesses.  That's the clear message I think I

19     gave.  And that's not for you to consider but that is for you to observe.

20             Then we move into private session.

21                           [Private session]

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Page 17531











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21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

24             Mr. Petrovic, are you ready to examine the witness?

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I am, Your Honour.


Page 17537

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you will now be examined by Mr. Petrovic.

 2     Mr. Petrovic is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.

 3                           Examination by Mr. Petrovic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, witness.  Would you kindly state

 5     your name for the record, your date of birth, and place of birth.

 6        A.   My name is Risto Seovac, born on 5 April 1955 in the village of

 7     Mrko [phoen], Han Pijesak municipality, Republika Srpska.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Counsel must turn off his microphone while the

 9     witness is answering.  Audibility is considerably reduced.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, you are invited to switch off your

11     microphone when the witness is answering the questions.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Witness, could you tell us about your educational attainment.

15        A.   I finished primary school in a place called Pjelovac [phoen],

16     Han Pijesak municipality.  Then the secondary school for internal affairs

17     in Sremska Kamenica, Serbia.  And the higher administration school

18     attached to the law school of the university in Sarajevo.

19        Q.   What was your first job, and when?

20        A.   My first job was a trainee policeman.  And on the 1st July --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the year.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- I became a policeman in Uzice.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Were you transferred from Titova Uzice at some point?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  The year is missing from the transcript.  The

Page 17538

 1     interpreter could not catch the year.  The 1st of July of what year?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1974.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Did there come a time when you were transferred to a different

 8     job in a different town?

 9        A.   Before I took the state examination while I was still a trainee

10     in 1974 I was transferred to the SUP in Bajina Basta.

11        Q.   What were your duties in the SUP of Bajina Basta, and until when?

12        A.   From the time I took the state examination in January 1975, I was

13     a policeman until 1977, and from 1977 on, I was the sector leader in the

14     traffic police department until I finished my studies.  And then I

15     continued as sector leader until 1981, when I became deputy police

16     commander in the Bajina Basta SUP.

17        Q.   Until what year were you deputy commander of the police station?

18        A.   1st October, 1992.

19        Q.   What year were you retired?

20        A.   31st December, 1987.  Sorry, 2007.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Witness, could you tell us in one sentence where

22     Bajina Basta is located geographically.  What is on the opposite side of

23     Bajina Basta?

24        A.   Bajina Basta is a municipality that belongs to the Zlatibor

25     district.  It rounds off the central part of the Drina valley.  Opposite

Page 17539

 1     is Bosnia and Herzegovina.  And on the other side is the territory of

 2     Skelani, nowadays Srebrenica.

 3        Q.   What is between Bajina Basta and the territory of

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 5        A.   A bridge.

 6        Q.   Did there come a time when a check-point was placed on the bridge

 7     connecting the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Serbia?

 8        A.   Yes.  A check-point was set up on the junction of roads, one of

 9     which goes to Skelani and the other one along the Drina towards Perucac,

10     sometime in October 1991.

11        Q.   Did there come a time when this check-point was reorganised?

12        A.   Yes.  Later on, pursuant to a decision of the higher authorities,

13     it was turned into a border crossing, and it was moved further to be next

14     to the bridge.  And it became officially a border crossing on the

15     7th of October, 1992.

16        Q.   Did you, witness, get any assignments regarding this border

17     crossing?

18        A.   Yes.  By virtue of a decision of the MUP of Serbia, I was

19     appointed commander of the check-point station of Bajina Basta on the

20     border crossing, and I was placed to work on the border crossing itself.

21        Q.   The record says -- could you repeat to us the exact name of that

22     station that you led.  What is the full name?

23        A.   Police station for the inspection of border crossing,

24     Bajina Basta.

25        Q.   To whom was this police station and its commander, to whom were

Page 17540

 1     they answerable?

 2        A.   They are answerable to the MUP of Serbia, that is, the

 3     administration supervising border crossings, of the MUP of Serbia.

 4        Q.   Where is that administration located?

 5        A.   The base of the MUP of Serbia, in Belgrade, at the headquarters.

 6        Q.   To what department within the MUP of Serbia does your station

 7     belong, as well as the entire administration overseeing border crossings?

 8        A.   They both belong to the public security department.

 9        Q.   In this time since 1992 that you have headed this station, can

10     you describe to us how the crossings of armed people or uniformed people

11     from Bosnia and Herzegovina into the Republic of Serbia has been

12     regulated?

13        A.   By decree of the government, that is to say, the

14     Federal Executive Council, number 2, dated 1st May, 1992, border

15     crossings towards Bosnia and Herzegovina were designated, as well as

16     border crossings controlled by the United Nations as they were known at

17     the time.  Meaning Krajina, Slovenia.  The same enactment stipulates how

18     the border crossing may be change -- crossed, that is to say, only with a

19     valid passport, or a valid ID in the case of neighbouring territories.

20     The same enactment stipulates that the border may not be crossed carrying

21     weapons.

22        Q.   If somebody from Bosnia turned up at your border crossing

23     carrying weapons, what was the procedure?

24        A.   They would not be allowed to enter the territory of Serbia.  They

25     would be turned back into the territory of the neighbouring country from

Page 17541

 1     which they came.

 2        Q.   If somebody from Serbia tried to leave Serbia across the border

 3     that you controlled carrying weapons, what would be your reaction?

 4        A.   Such people would be intercepted and turned over to the local

 5     police who would process them further, maybe charge them with possession

 6     of weapons, et cetera.

 7        Q.   Specifically on your border crossing have there ever been any

 8     situations like that:  Attempts by people from the other side of the

 9     Drina to enter Serbia carrying weapons?

10        A.   We have to bear in mind that almost 50 per cent of the urban

11     population in Bajina Basta are Serbs from the territory of Srebrenica,

12     that is to say, Republika Srpska.  Problems were numerous.  People were

13     constantly trying to come back home carrying the weapons they had on the

14     front line, so we had to deal with this problem more or less constantly.

15        Q.   You say you turned these people back.  You turned them back to

16     whom?  Where would they go?

17        A.   On the border crossing, the neighbouring party controls the

18     border crossing.  And if that person does not meet the requirements to

19     enter our country, we turned that person back to the authorities of the

20     other side.

21        Q.   In addition to you, which other policemen, which other officials,

22     oversaw this border crossing?

23        A.   There were also members of the military police of the

24     16th Battalion of -- 16th Border Battalion of the Army of Yugoslavia, and

25     the customs service.

Page 17542

 1        Q.   Can you tell us why the military police was present?  Whom did

 2     they have jurisdiction over?

 3        A.   They had jurisdiction over uniformed persons carrying weapons.

 4     That's it.

 5        Q.   Did you have any jurisdiction over the military policemen manning

 6     the border crossing?

 7        A.   I did not have any direct command or control over them.  They

 8     were working alongside us, doing their part of the job.  We checked that

 9     people had proper documents to enter our territory, and they did other

10     work that was not in our hands or responsibility.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I believe, Your Honour, it is time

12     for the break now.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  It is a suitable moment for the break.

14             And we'll resume at 4.00.

15                           --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber apologises for the late start.  At the

18     same time, you give us quite a bit of homework now and then for the

19     breaks.

20             Mr. Petrovic, are you ready to continue?  And before we do so,

21     one observation.

22             Mr. Jordash, I do not know whether the Stanisic Defence had any

23     intention to respond to the urgent motion filed yesterday by the

24     Simatovic Defence.  If so, I'd like to set the deadline for you to

25     Thursday as well.

Page 17543

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 5        Q.   Witness, at the time when you were the commander of the police

 6     station for state border control, what was the territory controlled by

 7     your police station?  What was under your authority at the time?

 8        A.   According to the regulations and in keeping with the document on

 9     the establishment of the police station, was in charge of the road

10     leading between one state to the next and 50 metres on each of the sides

11     of the road [as interpreted].  That's the area concerned border crossing.

12     And in depth, the length was 100 metres, not further than that.  Beyond

13     those parameters, those police stations that controlled border crossings

14     did not have any authority.

15        Q.   Witness, you have noticed that I am waiting for you to finish

16     your answer, because everything is interpreted.

17             Who controls the area beyond the area that was under the control

18     of the police station for border crossing?

19        A.   It was the army, or, rather, its border units.  In our case, that

20     was the 16th Border-Crossing Detachment that was deployed in

21     Bajina Basta.

22        Q.   Witness, could you please tell us who controlled the Perucac dam

23     that was several kilometres up the stream from Bajina Basta?  Who

24     controlled the crossing across that facility?

25        A.   Bajina Basta, i.e., the dam, was not a regular border crossing.

Page 17544

 1     And it was under the control of the same entity that controlled the

 2     border, which was the Army of Yugoslavia.  The Army of Yugoslavia

 3     controlled all the facilities in the immediate vicinity of the state

 4     border.

 5        Q.   Could vehicles also cross the border across the Perucac dam?

 6        A.   Yes, they could.

 7        Q.   Do you know if in the vicinity of the dam there was a Yugoslav

 8     army facility?

 9        A.   Yes.  There was a watch tower of the Yugoslav army that

10     controlled the border crossing from there.

11        Q.   Witness, did there come a time when the territory of Skelani came

12     under attack?  And if it did, when was that?

13        A.   It was on the 16th of January, 1993, in the early morning hours.

14     As far as I can remember, that was around 5.00 in the morning.  An attack

15     was launched from the depth of the territory from the direction of

16     Srebrenica, towards a Skelanica [phoen] settlement.

17        Q.   Sir, what happened with the population of Skelani and the

18     surrounding villages at that time?

19        A.   All those who were fleeing before the attack, all those who

20     survived and could move about, came to the bridge.  That was their only

21     way to get across the river to the other side and save themselves.

22        Q.   Witness, where is the border on the bridge?

23        A.   Bearing in mind that you cannot navigate across the Drina, and

24     according to the international regulations, if a border goes along a

25     non-navigable river, then the border would be in its middle, which means

Page 17545

 1     that two-thirds of the bridge were under the authority of the Republic of

 2     Serbia and one third was under the authority of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

 3     i.e., the Republika Srpska.

 4        Q.   Witness, you mentioned that the population started fleeing across

 5     the bridge towards Serbia.  Was fire opened on the inhabitants of Skelani

 6     and other villages who were on the way to Serbia on that day?

 7        A.   Yes.  On the population and on our facilities and our staff.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us, Where did fire come from?  And what area came

 9     under that fire on that day?

10        A.   The entire area of Skelani was under fire.  And since the

11     population was coming to the bridge in a funnel-shaped manner, the fire

12     followed them and came closer to the bridge.

13        Q.   Witness, in this part of the bridge that is in the territory of

14     the Republic of Serbia, and in the area around your police station, were

15     there any casualties?

16        A.   Yes, there were.  There were about 40 dead and about 60 injured

17     in that area from the middle of the bridge up to our facilities, on that

18     part of the embankment and the river shore.

19        Q.   On that day was fire opened on Bajina Basta as well?

20        A.   At the time when fire was opened on Skelani, fire was also opened

21     on the road leading from Skelani to Bajina Basta.  Some five or six

22     mortar shells fell on the -- on the road on that day.

23        Q.   Witness, what happened to the population of Bajina Basta on that

24     day?

25        A.   Since fire was opened on the city, on the city centre, and on the

Page 17546

 1     hotel - you can still see the damage on the hotel - the population

 2     started withdrawing towards the depth of the territory, i.e., towards

 3     Uzice.

 4        Q.   Witness, on that day -- or, rather, first tell me, as far as you

 5     know, What was the total number of casualties among the civilian

 6     population of Skelani and surrounding villages on that day as a result of

 7     the attack that you have just described?

 8        A.   I don't know exactly, but approximately there were about 60 dead

 9     in total and approximately about a hundred injured, severely and slightly

10     injured.

11        Q.   Witness, among those who were killed in the territory of the

12     Republic of Serbia on the bridge and around your police station, who were

13     they?  Were they militarily able-bodied men, civilians?  Who were the

14     casualties?

15        A.   The casualties were both members of the Army of Republika Srpska

16     from Skelani as well as women and children.  I believe that on that day

17     four our five children were killed.  The youngest was four.

18        Q.   Witness, did there come a time when the Army of Yugoslavia got

19     involved in the defence of Bajina Basta?

20        A.   After fire was opened on the road and the city centre, the

21     Army of Yugoslavia, i.e., 16th Border-Crossing Battalion, got involved in

22     order to stop the attack and in order to allow the population to withdraw

23     from the area.

24        Q.   Witness, did some MUP units come to their aid as well?

25        A.   Sometime around midday PJPs came to aid the Army of Yugoslavia.

Page 17547

 1     They were from Uzice, from Uzice MUP.

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] On the record we can see "PJPs

 3     from Uzice."  Yes.  Yes, that's good.  Yes.

 4        Q.   Witness, after this event, did some MUP officials also arrive in

 5     Bajina Basta?

 6        A.   On the following day, sometime in the afternoon, the prime

 7     minister, Mr. Sainovic, came to Bajina Basta and to my border crossing,

 8     to my police station.  I apologise, that was later.  It was actually the

 9     chief of the public security sector - Mr. Badza - arrived with other

10     service members.

11        Q.   Do you know who came with Badza?  Did you know any of those

12     people who came with Badza to Bajina Basta?

13        A.   The chief of the department, the then-commander of the PJPs,

14     Obrad Stevanovic.  I believe that the chief of the state security

15     department was also there, but I'm not sure about that.  And some local

16     officials.  The local leadership.

17        Q.   Witness, do you know why Radovan Stojicic came to Bajina Basta?

18        A.   After all those developments and events and after our reports, he

19     came to establish what had happened and to take measures in order to

20     protect one part of the state territory.

21        Q.   Can you tell us, if you know, What measures did Stojicic put in

22     place?

23        A.   On that same day, a staff was established, a staff of PJPs, in

24     Bajina Basta.  And I believe that Obrad Stevanovic was appointed its

25     commander.  From then on he was supposed to devise further measures and

Page 17548

 1     put them in place.

 2        Q.   Could you please tell us where the staff was located?

 3        A.   It was located in -- on the premises of the Secretariat of the

 4     Interior in Bajina Basta.

 5        Q.   Witness, did you have any communication with the staff at all?

 6        A.   Only when I received instructions from my administration, if I

 7     needed to go there to request something, or something like that.  All the

 8     contacts that they had were with my administration.

 9        Q.   Did there come a time when you contacted somebody in the staff?

10     And if you did, who was it and why?

11        A.   We were a police station under establishment.  We did not have

12     any equipment.  My administration recommended that I should contact the

13     staff commander and request the radio sets that I didn't have and that I

14     needed to ask them to give me as much as they could.  Those were my

15     contacts with them around that time.  And not only radio sets, but also

16     other equipment as well.

17        Q.   Could you please tell us - you say that you contacted the staff

18     commander - who was that?  Who did you talk to about the equipment?

19        A.   Upon the recommendation of my superior command, I talked directly

20     to the staff commander, Stevanovic.

21        Q.   Witness, you mentioned just a minute ago the Uzice detachment of

22     PJPs.  Did there come a time when some other members and some other PJP

23     detachments came from other cities in Serbia?

24        A.   When the staff was established and when the staff took over its

25     task, additional forces were deployed from all over Serbia.

Page 17549

 1        Q.   Witness, just one sentence, please, to explain to us:  Who were

 2     members of PJPs at the time?  How were they recruited?  Which policemen

 3     constituted those units?

 4        A.   Members of the PJP were recruited from the regular police force.

 5     Younger men, physically fit for harder field missions.

 6        Q.   You say that people were recruited from the regular police force.

 7     What were their regular lines of work before they joined the PJP?

 8        A.   Beat policemen, patrolling, traffic police, duty service; the

 9     usual police work.

10        Q.   Did these men have combat experience, or similar?

11        A.   Not until then.

12        Q.   You say these men had been engaged in regular police work such as

13     patrolling and going on the beat.  Did they, therefore, need additional

14     training to be able to take up their new jobs?

15        A.   Of course they needed training, because untrained people cannot

16     be involved even in harder police work, let alone combat.

17        Q.   Do you know if any training was conducted for these policemen who

18     had come to assist in the situation that arose in your town?

19        A.   To the best of my knowledge, there was a later period when the

20     staff set up a training centre for the PJP, and I believe it was on

21     Mount Tara, a hotel called Sljivovica.

22        Q.   Before this training centre on mount Tara, had there existed a

23     training centre in that locality?

24        A.   No.  It was just a normal hotel until the war.

25        Q.   Did you ever have occasion to go to that location, that hotel?

Page 17550

 1        A.   Yes.  Before 1992 I went to it when it was a normal hotel.  And

 2     after that I didn't go.  I didn't even have time.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we call up

 4     D415.

 5        Q.   Witness, could you look at the right-hand top corner.  There is a

 6     code, DX.  What does it mean?

 7        A.   It means it's closed circulation.  And DX means that it needs

 8     urgent action.

 9        Q.   What level of urgency in action does it indicate?

10        A.   DX means that upon receiving the assignment contained in the

11     dispatch not more than 12 hours should elapse before action is taken.

12        Q.   Could you now look at the lower portion of the document where we

13     see different designations in block letters under number 2.

14             What are these designations?

15        A.   You mean the PJM staff?

16        Q.   This one is Pristina, Urosevac, Gnjilane.  Just tell us, What do

17     they designate?  You don't have to enumerate all the towns.

18        A.   These designations indicate SUPs, secretariats that are supposed

19     to send men from the territory of Serbia.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Did there come a time when one of the highest ranking

21     state officials came to your border crossing?

22        A.   Yes.  On the 16th of February, 1993, around -- sometime in the

23     afternoon, then-prime minister of Serbia, Nikola Sainovic, came with his

24     entourage.

25        Q.   Just a moment.

Page 17551

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at 2D1206, the

 2     first photograph from that exhibit.

 3             Your Honours, this is a set of individual photographs from

 4     Exhibit P1592.

 5        Q.   Witness, could you tell us - we see four persons in this

 6     photograph - from the left to the right, can you identify these people?

 7        A.   In the foreground is Mr. Sainovic.  And the uniformed man behind

 8     him is the PJP commander, Branko Prljevic from SUP Uzice.  Behind, in

 9     uniform, is the chief of public security department, Stojicic.  And next

10     to him is the minister of the interior, Sokolovic.

11        Q.   Thank you, witness.

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at the second

13     photograph from this set.

14        Q.   Tell us, Do you recognise anyone here?

15        A.   The one close-up in uniform with the moustache is

16     Mr. Vidoje Pantic from SUP Uzice.  I don't know the others.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at photo

19     number 5.

20        Q.   Witness, in this photo, can you recognise the first person on the

21     right?

22        A.   You mean the man behind my open hand?

23        Q.   Yes.

24        A.   It's Mr. Lukic, an employee of the public security department who

25     was detached to Bajina Basta.

Page 17552

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

 3        Q.   In fact, could you repeat the name and where he worked?

 4        A.   Mihajlo Lukic, employed with the public security department.  And

 5     he was permanently located in Bajina Basta as a detached employee.

 6        Q.   We have an interpretation problem, because the witness said twice

 7     which department this man worked in and we hear twice "public security."

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's apologies.  It was the state

 9     security sector.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  It is corrected, Mr. Petrovic.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

12             I thank the interpreters, too.

13             Could we now look at the photograph number 8 from this set.

14        Q.   Could you just tell us where this photo was taken?  And these two

15     men in uniform, can you identify them?  Do you know which structures they

16     worked for?

17        A.   This is a photo near the border crossing itself, near Djakovo,

18     just before these events.

19             In the blue uniform is a member of my station.  And the one in

20     the green uniform is a military policeman.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at photo

23     number 9.

24        Q.   Could you tell us what we can see on this photograph?

25        A.   This is just above the bridge, and it was taken from the

Page 17553

 1     border-crossing Bajina Basta.  Below these houses is the entrance point

 2     to the bridge.

 3        Q.   On this day we were discussing, the 16th of January, who was

 4     inside these houses?  Was there any fire coming from them?

 5        A.   These houses were occupied by Bosniak forces just above the

 6     bridge.  And you can see from the photograph they are firing.  They were

 7     attacking, firing at people.

 8        Q.   Thank you, witness.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like this set of photographs

10     to be accepted, to be admitted.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, could you ask the witness to tell

12     us exactly how and where he sees that firing takes place from these

13     houses?

14             Could you tell us where you see that anyone is firing from these

15     houses, and from which house, and how you can see that?

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I just say one

17     sentence?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Depends on what it is, Mr. Petrovic.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe it's a

21     translation problem.  The translation was not precise enough.

22             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... okay, then we'll

23     ask the -- let's check.

24             Is it the line I refer to when the witness said what he saw on

25     the photograph?  Yes.  Could we -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

Page 17554

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I read to the witness what is -- how his words are

 3     translated.  Is it about the houses occupied by the Bosniak forces,

 4     Mr. Petrovic?

 5             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I read to you how your answer was translated

 7     to us.

 8              "These houses were occupied by Bosniak forces just above the

 9     bridge.  And you can see from the photograph they are firing.  They were

10     attacking, firing at people."

11             Could you please correct what you consider to be wrong, because

12     you're nodding "no."  Could you please repeat your answer, then.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time of the attack there

14     were Muslim forces inside these houses that opened fire on people

15     crossing the bridge.  That was at that time.  And the photograph was

16     taken later, much later.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  So you can't see anything from this photograph as

18     far as firing is concerned?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Because the photograph was not

20     taken at the time of the shooting.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

22             The question, then, of course, arises what we can see on this

23     photograph.  I mean, the houses, what do they add to what the witness

24     said already?  But you may proceed.

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 17555

 1             I think I asked for this set of photographs to be admitted.  And

 2     I would appreciate it if the Trial Chamber could rule.  I think that was

 3     the last thing I said.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  There are no objections from the Prosecution.

 5             Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 2D1206 will receive number D744,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 9             You may proceed.

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   Witness, do you know whether even after the 16th January, 1993,

12     there was shooting in the direction of the territory of Serbia?

13        A.   Yes.  I know about the killing of this young man, Bogdanovic,

14     below the Rasniste [phoen] settlement on the road.  He was killed by a

15     sniper bullet from the other side, from the Djurdjevac feature.

16        Q.   Witness, do you know if there came a time when the Muslim forces

17     were repelled and pushed back, away from Skelani?

18        A.   The action of VRS units and VJ units pushed them back, way back,

19     after four or five days of these attacks.

20        Q.   Could you just sit closer to the microphone so you are audible to

21     the interpreters.

22             Tell me, witness, did some units that were involved in these

23     operations you just discussed use your border crossing?

24        A.   Four or five days after these events we received notice, as was

25     the common practice in extraordinary situations, and, indeed, in the

Page 17556

 1     evening a military convoy passed through from Bajina Basta, across

 2     Bajina Basta, towards Skelani.

 3        Q.   You said you received notice - from whom?

 4        A.   From the MUP of Serbia at the request of the General Staff.

 5        Q.   Can you tell us which particular service of the Serbian MUP?

 6        A.   From the administration of border-crossing police.  They were the

 7     only ones who could give us notice or issue orders to us.

 8        Q.   Could you please tell us, Did you at any point find out what

 9     military unit this was, who was the commander of the unit, and whom they

10     belonged to?

11        A.   At the time of their crossing, we didn't know.  But later on we

12     heard it was commanded by, I think at the time he was a colonel,

13     Colonel Mrksic, if I'm not mistaken.

14        Q.   What vehicles crossed via your border crossing as part of this

15     military column?

16        A.   Several trucks, four-wheel-drive vehicles.  I think there were

17     two Pragas and quite a lot of troops, if I'm not mistaken.

18        Q.   Sir, can you please tell us whether in Bajina Basta there was a

19     State Security Service of Serbia detachment?

20        A.   Since my arrival in Bajina Basta in 1974, and I still think

21     they -- they have a detachment there today, so throughout that period

22     there was a state security detachment.

23        Q.   And in 1993 do you know who was employed there?

24        A.   Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Pero Lukic.

25        Q.   Where were their offices, the offices of the state security

Page 17557

 1     detachment in Bajina Basta?

 2        A.   In the premises of the Bajina Basta secretariat.  So where all

 3     the other offices were, they had their offices as well.

 4        Q.   You told us that on those premises the MUP staff was also

 5     established and located.  In relation to their offices, can you tell us

 6     where the state security detachment was located within that building in

 7     Bajina Basta?

 8        A.   The staff itself was in an office that belonged to the chief of

 9     the secretariat because it was the biggest office.  And then the

10     following one was a set of offices used by the inspectors.  And then was

11     the detachment offices.

12        Q.   So they were all in the same hallway.  The staff and the

13     detachment were in the same hallway space?

14        A.   Yes, yes, that's correct.

15        Q.   Sir, did you at any point get to meet Mr. Franko Simatovic?

16        A.   To be honest, not directly, really.  But I know who he was, and I

17     am familiar with his face.

18        Q.   In 1993 have you seen Mr. Simatovic in Bajina Basta?  And if so,

19     when?

20        A.   I saw him for the first time when Prime Minister Sainovic came to

21     the border crossing.  And then I've seen him on two or three occasions,

22     maybe, in that very hallway when he would be visiting the staff

23     commander.  And I think once close to the hotel in the town centre.  All

24     together, three times maybe.

25        Q.   Sir, your answer is not fully transcribed.

Page 17558

 1             When did you see Mr. Simatovic in the hallway?

 2        A.   I saw him later, after I had seen him at the border crossing.  It

 3     was maybe five or ten days after that, but I cannot be more precise about

 4     it.

 5        Q.   And on that occasion were you going anywhere or was maybe

 6     Simatovic going anywhere?

 7        A.   I was on my way to meet with the special unit's commander, and

 8     that's where I saw Mr. Simatovic in the hallway.

 9        Q.   Sir, did you on any occasion find out -- have you found out on

10     any occasion later why was Mr. Simatovic in Bajina Basta?

11        A.   Well, if you see a man in -- on official premises, of course, one

12     wants to know why is he there.  And then later at the staff I was told

13     that this was an employee of the state security department, and that was

14     all I needed to know.

15        Q.   Can you tell us, sir:  You told us that you saw Mr. Simatovic on

16     several occasions; in which time-period all this happened?  Could you

17     tell us?

18        A.   Well, I cannot be very precise.  But between the arrival of the

19     prime minister on the 16th of February and the end of May.  So I've seen

20     him two or three times altogether during that time-period.

21        Q.   Sir, did at any point a group of international observers come to

22     your border crossing?

23        A.   Yes.  After the blockade of Republika Srpska was introduced - I

24     think that must have been in mid-1993 - as of then, there were observers

25     present there.  And I think they remained there until mid-1995.

Page 17559

 1        Q.   Sir, can you please tell us, Where were they deployed, what was

 2     their role there, what did they do there?

 3        A.   As far as I knew, as far as I was advised by the Serbian MUP,

 4     their main task was to prevent passage of uniformed people or armed

 5     people either way.  They were billeted in Drina hotel, and they worked at

 6     the very border crossing together with the customs officials.  They were

 7     there 24 hours a day.

 8        Q.   Do you know who they reported to, the UN observers?

 9        A.   I cannot be precise, but I believe they were sending their

10     reports to the United Nations.  Whether the General Assembly or some

11     other committee, I don't know.  Security Council ...

12        Q.   Have you ever received any reports about complaints made by the

13     observers in relation to the activities of your men or events at the

14     border crossing?

15        A.   I was never told about anything of the sort.

16        Q.   Sir, have you heard about an airport in Skelani that may have

17     been built in 1992 or 1993?

18        A.   What?  An airport?  I -- I know nothing about that.

19        Q.   In 1992, 1993, or 1994, have you seen planes taking off or

20     landing in Skelani?

21        A.   No, not at all.

22        Q.   Do you know anything about transport of wounded people from

23     Skelani to the territory of Serbia?

24        A.   The only way that the transport could have been made - and that's

25     how it was made - was through the border crossing in vehicles.  They

Page 17560

 1     would be taken to the health centre in Bajina Basta, and from there, in

 2     urgent cases, they would be transported by helicopters either to the

 3     military hospital in Belgrade or the clinical centre in Belgrade.

 4        Q.   These helicopters:  Whose helicopters they were [as interpreted],

 5     and where would they take off from?

 6        A.   It was JA helicopters coming either from Ponikve or from

 7     Belgrade, I don't know.

 8        Q.   And from Bajina Basta where would they take off or land in

 9     Bajina Basta?

10        A.   It was at a playground that was close to the health centre.

11     That's also the place where the prime minister landed when he arrived in

12     a helicopter.

13        Q.   Thank you, sir.

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

15     questions for this witness.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

17             MR. JORDASH:  May I just take very brief instructions, please.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

19                           [Defence counsel confer]

20             MR. JORDASH:  No questions.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jordash.

22             Mr. Farr, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

23             MR. FARR:  Almost, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Seovac, you will now be cross-examined by

25     Mr. Farr.  Mr. Farr is counsel for the Prosecution.  I think I explained


Page 17561

 1     that already earlier to you.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Farr.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Farr:

 4        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Seovac.  Can you hear me clearly?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   I'd like to start by asking you about your relationship with the

 7     DB, the State Security Service.

 8             When you were the commander of the Bajina Basta border police

 9     station, did you send written reports or other written communications to

10     the State Security Service regarding any of your activities?

11        A.   I was duty-bound to submit reports only to my administrations.

12     If it was occasionally necessary to report to them, then I would send

13     such a report to the employee who was part of the detachment.

14        Q.   And what kind of matters would that be about?

15        A.   Mainly about incidents such as the attack, or threats to security

16     coming from the other side.

17        Q.   And to whom precisely in the State Security Service would you

18     send these reports?

19        A.   To the state security centre, Uzice.

20        Q.   Can you tell us who was the chief of that centre at that time?

21        A.   I know that, for a while at least, a certain Sokic was in that

22     position, if I'm not mistaken.

23        Q.   You said that you would send these reports "Mainly about

24     incidents such as the attack, or threats to security coming from the

25     other side."

Page 17562

 1             Other than attacks or threats from the other side, did you report

 2     to the State Security Service about any other matters?

 3        A.   Trying to remember right now.  It's very difficult to say

 4     anything.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, but if

 7     we look at the witness's answer on page 45, line 15, you will see that he

 8     said attacks and other issues.  And I'm afraid that the interpretation

 9     given by my colleague is not correct.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  What do you mean exactly by interpretation -- the

11     interpretation provided by the interpreters?  Or ...

12             Let me just see.

13             Page 45, line 15 ...

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my colleague asked

15     him whether he reported about anything else, not only the attacks.  In

16     his answer, the witness responded by saying that he reported about the

17     attacks and he added something else.  And I would like my colleague to

18     put a clear question then.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  So you're saying Mr. Farr is misrepresenting the

20     evidence.  I just have to ...

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I just wanted to say that my

22     colleague simplified what was in the transcript.  I'm not saying that he

23     misquoted anything.  He just simplified it.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             Mr. Farr, apparently there's an issue about you summarising too

Page 17563

 1     much the answer of the witness.

 2             Could you please put the question again to the witness and then

 3     include the whole of his previous answer.

 4             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, I think I did.  I'm comparing lines

 5     15 and 16 to lines 23 and 24.

 6             But I'll put it again to save time.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

 8             MR. FARR:

 9        Q.   Sir, the transcript - when I asked you what kind of matters that

10     would be about, in other words, your reports - your answer was:  "Mainly

11     about incidents such as the attack, or threats to security coming from

12     the other side."

13             Other than those matters, what would you report to the state

14     security about, if anything?

15        A.   I was not in a position, I was not even authorised, since that

16     was a different department, I was not in a position to make decisions as

17     to I have to report about this or that.

18             If I would be told by my chain of command to report, I would.

19        Q.   And do you remember that ever happening with respect to anything

20     other than "incidents such as the attack, or threats to security coming

21     from the other side"?

22        A.   Yes.  In many occasions.

23        Q.   What kinds of things?

24        A.   For instance, let me see, when the troops passed through, then

25     attempts to prevent a larger group of entering or a group of people who

Page 17564

 1     were armed.  If there were incidents like that, I would, upon receiving

 2     signals that I should, I would then report to the state security.

 3        Q.   You've discussed both Franko Simatovic and Obrad Stevanovic in

 4     your testimony.  Were you ever personally present at a meeting at which

 5     both Mr. Stevanovic and Mr. Simatovic were also present?

 6        A.   I don't think so.

 7        Q.   Were you ever at the Tara training camp any time in 1993?

 8        A.   No, I wasn't.

 9        Q.   During your examination-in-chief, you discussed the Muslim

10     offensive or Army of B&H offensive in Skelani in January 1993 and the

11     crimes committed by those forces in the course of that offensive.  And I

12     want to be clear with you that the Prosecution does not contest the

13     existence of that offensive or the occurrence of the crimes or the

14     suffering of the civilians who were victimised.

15             I would now like to ask you briefly about your knowledge of some

16     other events in that region.

17             MR. FARR:  And could we please have P385 on the screen.

18             This is operational directive number 4 of the Main Staff of the

19     VRS, dated 19 November 1992.

20             And if we could have page 7 in English -- well, let's look at the

21     first page first.

22             Okay.  If we could now have page 7 in English, and e-court

23     page 15, which is the second-to-last page in B/C/S.

24             Your Honour, I see that this is almost illegible in B/C/S on our

25     screens.  I do have a hard copy that the witness can look at.

Page 17565

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that there's no objection against giving a

 2     hard copy to the witness.

 3             Could the usher assist.

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have a question,

 5     though.

 6             If I'm not mistaken, how does anything in this document arise

 7     from my examination-in-chief?  Maybe I spoke too soon, but I really don't

 8     see any such thing.

 9             Maybe my learned friend can help me with that.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, if you think the time is ripe to explain

11     that to us, then please do so.

12             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, this is intended to contextualize the

13     witness's evidence about the Muslim offensive on Skelani.  It's also

14     evidence in support of our case that I'm seeking to adduce pursuant to

15     the second half of 90(H)(ii) -- 90(H)(i), apology.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, that --

17             Then you may proceed.

18             Could the usher assist.

19             MR. FARR:

20        Q.   Sir, if we can look first at the page that's been handed to you

21     and if you direct your attention to the middle of the page, we'll see

22     that this directive -- which is the bottom of the page in English, I

23     should say -- this directive was drafted by

24     Major-General Manojlo Milovanovic.  And while it isn't physically signed,

25     it appears to be from Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic, signing as

Page 17566

 1     commander of the Main Staff.

 2             MR. FARR:  And if we could now have the bottom of page 5 in

 3     English and the top of e-court page 11 in B/C/S.

 4        Q.   And, sir, for you it's the page that has the yellow tape flag on

 5     it.

 6             I'll begin reading with item D.  It says:

 7             "The Drina Corps, from its present positions, its main forces

 8     shall persistently defend Visegrad, the dam, Zvornik, and the corridor,

 9     while the rest of its forces in the wider Podrinje region shall exhaust

10     the enemy, inflict the heaviest possible losses on him, and force him to

11     leave the Birac, Zepa, and Gorazde areas together with the Muslim

12     population."

13             Sir, were you aware that one of the tasks given by Ratko Mladic

14     to the Drina Corps in November of 1992 was to force the Muslim population

15     to leave this portion of Eastern Bosnia?

16        A.   I was not aware of that.  I don't see a reason why I should know

17     about that.  All that was happening across the river in Republika Srpska,

18     and I had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with that.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't have to explain why you do not know

20     something.  If you don't know, you don't know.

21             Please proceed, Mr. Farr.

22             MR. FARR:

23        Q.   Are you able to confirm that VRS operations in Eastern Bosnia in

24     1992 were in fact forcing the Muslim population out of certain portions

25     of the territory, for example in Skelani?

Page 17567

 1        A.   Again, I have to say no.

 2        Q.   You're not aware of the Muslim population being forced out of

 3     Skelani municipality in 1992 by the VRS; is that your answer?

 4        A.   I'm not aware of that because I joined the station on the

 5     7th of October.  You're talking about some events preceding my arrival.

 6        Q.   You are aware, though, I take it, that the Muslim population of

 7     Eastern Bosnia was ultimately forced out by the VRS in 1995; is that

 8     correct?

 9        A.   I can't confirm with any degree of certainty.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, could we --

11             Could I ask you the question a slightly different way.

12             Were you aware that the Muslim population, by majority, left?  So

13     apart from what forced them out.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that the Muslim population

15     was in the territory of Srebrenica and that those who were close to me

16     were Serbs.  I don't know how they had been separated from each other

17     because I really wasn't there all the time.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  But Skelani, was that a majority Muslim or Serb or

19     Croat population?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a mixed Muslim/Serb

21     population.  Before the war, the ratio was 35:65, or, rather, 55 in

22     favour of Serbs.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you talking about the village of Skelani or the

24     area of Skelani?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about Skelani as a

Page 17568

 1     municipality with the surrounding villages.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And the village of Skelani itself?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The ratio was more or less the

 4     same.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Farr.

 6             MR. FARR:  Thank you.  And I've finished with that document, so

 7     we can get that back from the witness.

 8             Could we now -- and I'm moving on to another topic.

 9             Could we now please have on the screen 65 ter 6393.

10        Q.   Sir, as you can see, this is a combat order for further

11     operations from the command of the Drina Corps.  It's dated

12     12 February 1993, so a little bit less than a month after the offensive

13     that you described.

14             MR. FARR:  In the upper right-hand corner of the document, we see

15     the Serbian word "Udar" in quotation marks.  And I would also call the

16     Chamber's attention to the number of this document, which is 01/5-97.

17     That will be relevant to a document we'll look at shortly.

18        Q.   Sir, in your direct examination, at pages 39 and 40, you were

19     asked about a counter-attack, and you indicated that there was a

20     counter-attack and that to your knowledge the VRS and the VJ participated

21     in that counter-attack.

22             I'd like to read the first paragraph of this document.  It says:

23             "Number 1: Following the successful operations conducted by units

24     of the corps, the enemy forces in the general area of Srebrenica,

25     Skelani, Bratunac, Pobudje, Cerska, and Kamenica have sustained heavy

Page 17569

 1     losses, particularly in manpower.  The enemy has also lost a large part

 2     of territory under its control prior to the offensive operations.  Our

 3     forces control the area of Kamenica, most of the territory of Skelani

 4     municipality, Ilijin Brod, part of the area of Bratunac municipality in

 5     the direction of the villages of Kravica and Glogova, in the direction of

 6     the Sase Mine and the Caus feature.  The enemy has lost its initiative

 7     and is now on the defensive."

 8             Sir, this is a description of the counter-attack that you

 9     described in your direct examination; correct?

10        A.   Well, I suppose so.  It was probably that.  But I didn't know

11     that.  I don't know that.

12        Q.   And the word "Udar" on the upper right-hand corner of this order

13     is the name of the counter-attack operation; is that also correct?

14        A.   I don't know.  I don't know.  I've never seen these documents.

15     I'm not familiar with any of the activities described in them.

16        Q.   Sir, during your direct examination you were asked:

17             "... do you know if there came a time when the Muslim forces were

18     repelled and pushed back, away from Skelani?"

19             Your answer was:

20             "The action of VRS units of and VJ units pushed them back, way

21     back, after four or five days of these attacks."

22             You were asked further questions about troops crossing your

23     border, and you indicated that a group under the command of

24     Colonel Mrksic crossed the border.

25             Sir, isn't it correct that what you were describing was

Page 17570

 1     Operation Udar?

 2        A.   No.  I was describing the crossing of the unit.  I don't know

 3     anything about their further activities, nor was I in a position to know

 4     about them.

 5             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, I tender this as a Prosecution Exhibit.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  We object to the exhibit.  First of all, there's a

 7     huge amount of information in this exhibit which could mean many things.

 8     And we don't -- nobody knows but Mr. Farr what the Prosecution intend to

 9     use that document for other than this first paragraph, and even that,

10     it's difficult to know what the Prosecution's intention is.

11             If the Prosecution's intention is to use that paragraph to

12     impeach the witness, it's difficult to know how that impeaches the

13     witness.  And if Mr. Farr intends to use that paragraph to prove

14     something else, then, again, that hasn't been explained to us.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, any response?

16             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, of course, when a document is admitted,

17     the entire document is in evidence and all parties can rely on.

18             The primary relevance of this document for us at this moment is

19     the association of the name of the operation with the actions described.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you need the rest of the document?

21             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, if there's a way to put it in evidence in

22     a meaningful way without the rest of the document, then, no.  I mean,

23     that's what we're relying on it for.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, it's a five-page document.

25             Apparently you -- the first page will do, Mr. ... for your

Page 17571

 1     purposes?

 2             MR. FARR:  There may be a signature on the document as well, but,

 3     I mean, anything that indicates what the document is.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, tell us whether there is.  I would say that

 5     there seems to be a signature on the document.

 6             MR. FARR:  So perhaps the signature -- the signature block and

 7     the stamp.  But not the remaining paragraphs.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  So pages 1 and 5 is what you ...

 9             MR. FARR:  Yes, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, does your objection stand?

11             MR. JORDASH:  If the point is to demonstrate or to suggest that

12     the witness was talking about Operation Udar and the first paragraph and

13     the signature enables that submission to be made, then we don't object.

14             MR. FARR:  And ...

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, just to be clear:  This is not being

17     tendered solely for impeachment; this is being tendered as substantive

18     evidence.

19             MR. JORDASH:  But then we do object to that because for what

20     purpose?  Who knows?  Nobody knows but Mr. Farr.

21             MR. FARR:  I think it will become clear shortly.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then what we'll do is the following:  We'll reserve

23     a number for those portions of this document that will finally survive,

24     and we'll first listen to the other questions Mr. Farr will put to the

25     witness.

Page 17572

 1             And the number would be, Madam Registrar ...

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  The number for the portions of document 6393 will

 3     receive number P3085.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And we'll later know whether it's the whole of

 5     the document or whether it's just the pages 1 and 5, in which case, of

 6     course, it would have to be re-uploaded.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, I'm moving on to another document now to

 9     contextualize this one.  I don't know -- this document has been marked as

10     P3085; is that correct?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, perhaps that's the best way of doing it.  And

12     then we'll later find out whether it's the whole of the document or part

13     of it which will be admitted into evidence.

14             Madam Registrar, the number just you reserved is the number to be

15     assigned for this document which is now marked for identification.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. FARR:  Can we now please have P392 on the screen.

18        Q.   Sir, to orient you, we're looking --

19             MR. FARR:  And, sorry, if we could have page 3 in both languages.

20        Q.   Sir, to orient you:  We're about to look at an excerpt from a

21     notebook kept by the Ratko Mladic, and the particular entry we're looking

22     at is dated 28 February 1993.

23             MR. FARR:  The portion I'm interested in is at the bottom of the

24     page in both languages.  So if we could zoom in as much as possible on

25     the bottom half.

Page 17573

 1        Q.   I, sir, do have a hard copy of this document as well if you would

 2     prefer that.  I don't know whether you're able to read this or not.

 3             This entry is from Sunday, the 28th of February, 1993.  It gives

 4     the location as Tara.  And the caption of the entry is:

 5             "Plan of action in Operation Udar."

 6             Mladic lists those present as:

 7             "Panic, myself, Ojdanic, Loncar," whose name is unfortunately

 8     misspelled in the English translation, "Tkac, Frenki, and two men from

 9     the MUP."

10             Sir, do we agree that Zivota Panic was the chief of the Main

11     Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia and Ratko Mladic was the chief of the

12     Main Staff of the VRS at this time?

13        A.   I suppose so.  I don't know.  I was not an army member, so I

14     don't know anything about any of the two militaries.

15        Q.   Are you able to comment in any way on the question of whether

16     Badza and Obrad Stevanovic are the two men from the MUP who are listed in

17     this entry?

18        A.   No, I can't.

19        Q.   I'll now just read briefly from the entry.  The first two lines

20     say:

21             "The units are in certain sectors and garrisons."

22              "In Osmace, Jadar, and Kragivode use PO, and in Kragivode use

23     napalm."

24             Sir, Kragivode is a village in Skelani municipality; correct?

25        A.   I don't know whether it belongs to Skelani or perhaps Srebrenica,

Page 17574

 1     I'm not sure.

 2        Q.   But in any event, it's a village in the vicinity of the border

 3     where you worked; correct?

 4        A.   No.  It would be about 30 kilometres away from where I was.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry to interrupt, I think we may have gone past

 6     the point of a break, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes, you're right.

 8             We take a break, and we resume at five minutes past 6.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 5.33 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 6.09 p.m.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, could you give the Chamber any impression

12     about how long you would need?

13             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, there's a topic that I would like to

14     address that was not covered during the witness's direct examination.  I

15     would estimate two hours from now, if the Chamber would grant me that.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             You may proceed.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it seems to me it

21     was the practice with viva voce witnesses the time allowed for

22     examination-in-chief is the same as the time allowed for

23     cross-examination.  Maybe I'm mistaken, but I believe that was the case

24     during the Prosecution case.  I've spent one hour in my

25     examination-in-chief, and I believe that is something that should be

Page 17575

 1     taken into account.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  First of all, Mr. Petrovic, I didn't say that the

 3     two hours were allowed.  I said "you may proceed" after a moment of

 4     silent thinking, you may have noticed that.  I further discussed the

 5     matter with my colleagues.

 6             And, of course, much depends on what Mr. Farr is -- is -- what

 7     the matter is he would like to -- he would like to put to the witness.

 8             I, by the way, saw that Mr. Jordash was on his feet as well.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  I was going to support Mr. Petrovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             Mr. Farr, any further explanation as to why you use quite some

12     time in cross-examination, where the examination-in-chief was limited in

13     time?  And to some extent even dealt with matters which, although we

14     found out that only later, are not even in dispute.

15             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, I believe that this witness can give us

16     important and relevant testimony.  Not all of it arises from the direct

17     examination.  Obviously it's for the Chamber to decide whether it's a

18     good use of Court time or not, but I -- we would submit that the length

19     of direct examination should not be a per se rule as to how much time is

20     granted in cross.

21             I would also note that we've generally been coming in under our

22     estimates.  This is an extraordinary application; we recognise that.  And

23     we don't ask for this kind of thing often.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps we will further look also at our

25     database with all the details of the -- the details of the time used.

Page 17576

 1             Apart from that, Mr. Petrovic, of course, your initial time

 2     scheduled was two hours.  That's -- to some extent, of course, the other

 3     party orients itself on the time which was announced by the other party.

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I agree.  But I

 5     believe what matters are the topics opened up in examination-in-chief.

 6     It is true we announced originally two hours, but it's also true that

 7     we're trying to follow the instructions to focus and use time as

 8     efficiently as possible.

 9             I believe the topics are really the basis for -- for estimates,

10     not time.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And I do not know them yet.  And I do not know

12     whether you know them already, but Mr. Farr said that he would elicit

13     evidence on matters I'm not aware of yet.

14             Let's -- let's see --

15             Mr. Farr, there is a clear flag here.  And then, again, I say not

16     that you get your two hours, but you've at least the next 45 minutes to

17     demonstrate how efficient and how focussed you are.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. FARR:

20        Q.   Sir, just to reorient you:  We were discussing the meeting at

21     Tara on the 28th of February.

22             MR. FARR:  If we could now have the next page in both languages,

23     please.

24        Q.   And I'll now continue reading with the portion that begins with

25     the initials ZP, which we say indicates that the speaker is Zivota Panic.

Page 17577

 1             It says:

 2             "ZP:  We cannot go into action until we are 100 percent certain

 3     with minimal losses.

 4             "Everyone must in position by Thursday.

 5             "The men from the MUP shall be a part of TG-1 Mrksic.

 6             "Everything should be ready for action by Thursday."

 7             Sir, are you able to say whether this is the Colonel Mrksic you

 8     described crossing the Drina River with troops and vehicles as part of

 9     the counter-attack?

10        A.   I cannot claim that, because I have no idea about this meeting,

11     who participated, and what was discussed.  I had nothing to do with it.

12        Q.   Turning to your evidence about Mr. Simatovic's presence in

13     Bajina Basta.  During the time that he was there, did you ever hear

14     anyone claiming or alleging that he financed or controlled some kind of

15     special unit?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   You said you saw him on a few occasions.  How was he dressed when

18     you saw him?

19        A.   The first time I saw him, when he was accompanying the prime

20     minister, he was in uniform.  And the other two or three times that I saw

21     him he was in civilian clothes.

22        Q.   Is it fair to say that on that first occasion he was dressed like

23     a combatant?

24        A.   He was in uniform.  I don't remember if he had any equipment, but

25     if -- I don't know.  It was -- it was the uniform for field purposes.

Page 17578

 1        Q.   And on that occasion you mentioned the presence, I think, of

 2     Sainovic.  You may have mentioned Sokolovic as well.  Jovica Stanisic was

 3     also present; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to read you something that you are recorded as

 6     saying on the video of that event.

 7             MR. FARR:  And, Your Honours, I'm reading now from the transcript

 8     of P1592.

 9        Q.   Sir, you're describing the attack and the fleeing civilians, and

10     you say the following:

11             "We were practically eye-witnesses of this attack against the

12     civilians, against those women and children.  Whenever we had the chance,

13     we jumped out of the trenches to rescue those ..."

14             And then Sainovic says: "... those people."

15             You continue:

16             "Yes.  Yes.  We carried them up to here.  I did not have the

17     possibility to evacuate them by car because we had just one car at our

18     disposal.  But there were vehicles from our rear area."

19             Sir, based on that, it sounds likes you risked physical injury or

20     possibly even death to assist those people.  Is that true?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And why did you do that?

23        A.   Well, first of all, as a policeman it was my duty to assist

24     people whose life was in danger.

25        Q.   And as the commander of the border police station, you allowed


Page 17579

 1     those people to remain in Serbia; correct?

 2        A.   It's not that I allowed them.  They came in en masse.  And a few

 3     days later, when that area was liberated for them, they returned.

 4        Q.   When they came in, did you check them for papers to see whether

 5     they had any legal right to be in Serbia?

 6        A.   If somebody is shooting at you and at them, would you do that?

 7        Q.   I take that as a no, sir; correct?

 8        A.   Something like that.

 9             MR. FARR:  Your Honours, can we please move into private session.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

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Page 17580











11 Page 17580 redacted. Private session.















Page 17581

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24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.


Page 17582

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 2             MR. FARR:

 3        Q.   Sir, this document is a cable from Vukoja Vukovic who is

 4     identified as the commander of Tactical Group 1.  The document is

 5     addressed to the Drina Corps commander and it's dated 6 May 1993.

 6             MR. FARR:  If we could have the middle of page two in B/C/S and

 7     the top of page 2 in English.  And I'm interested in item 5 specifically.

 8        Q.   Sir, I'll just read you paragraph 5 of this cable.  It says:

 9             "Allegedly, some intervention unit exists in Skelani (in the

10     camp).  There are 57 troops from the Skelani municipality wearing the

11     so-called red berets and commanded by Frenki and Bozovic.  They are all

12     military conscripts of the Skelani battalion, but they have not spent a

13     day in it.  I request of the addressee to sort this issue out urgently

14     with the Main Staff.  If I could get those 57 troops to my battalion, it

15     would get invigorated, and many problems from which this unit had

16     suffered from the begin would get sorted out."

17             Sir, in May of 1993, Franko Simatovic and Rajo Bozovic commanded

18     a unit that was commonly known as the Red Berets based at the school in

19     Skelani and that unit included a number of men who were supposed to have

20     been serving with the VRS Skelani Independent Battalion; correct?

21        A.   I'm completely unaware of this.  Those were units of the

22     Army of Republika Srpska, and I couldn't possibly know it.

23        Q.   And is it your evidence that you never heard anything about it,

24     of these claims being made by the commander of Tactical Group 1?

25        A.   I have no knowledge whatsoever about what is written here.

Page 17583

 1             MR. FARR:  Can we now please have P399 on the screen.

 2        Q.   Sir, this document is a report dated 15 May 1993.  So that's nine

 3     days after the previous document.  Whereas the last document was from

 4     Tactical Group 1, this document indicates that it is from the

 5     Independent Skelani Battalion.

 6             MR. FARR:  And can we have please have page 3 in B/C/S and page 5

 7     in English.

 8        Q.   Whereas the last document was from Vukoja Vukovic, the commander

 9     of Tactical group 1, if we scroll down to the bottom of these pages we

10     can see that this document is from Lieutenant-Colonel Branko Kuljanin.

11             MR. FARR:  If we scroll to the right in B/C/S, we'll see his

12     name.

13             And now could we please return to the top of the first page in

14     both languages.

15        Q.   Sir, were you at least aware of the existence of the

16     Independent Skelani Battalion of the VRS?

17        A.   I don't know what the unit was called, but I knew there was a

18     unit of battalion strength.  That's about it.

19        Q.   And how far was their headquarters from your border-crossing

20     post?

21        A.   I don't know where specifically their headquarters was.  Do you

22     have a location?

23        Q.   Sir, I don't.  I'm asking you.  But you've said you don't know,

24     so I'll continue.

25        A.   I don't know.

Page 17584

 1        Q.   The title of this report is: "Report on the Establishment of the

 2     Units for Special Purposes, Red Berets of the MUP of Serbia in Skelani."

 3             And I'll start reading at the beginning of the report:

 4             "The Red Berets unit was established on 8 June 1992.  It had

 5     20 military conscripts and was under the command of three instructors who

 6     trained its soldiers.  The unit continued to grow and there are

 7     50 soldiers in the camp in the school now."

 8             Sir, how far was the school in Skelani from your border post?

 9        A.   About two kilometres away.

10        Q.   Skipping down a few lines, it says:

11             "15 soldiers from the camp secure the KIK facility while the rest

12     are in the camp.  During the attack on Jezero, two soldiers were killed

13     at KIK and one was killed in the attack on Skelani on 16 January 1993.

14     After the unit left the Jezero facility, they left this area and went to

15     Tara for further training.

16             "The unit returned to Skelani in February and was again stationed

17     in the school.  The unit was under the command of Bozovic.  It had 150

18     soldiers and 52 of them were from Skelani (their names are in the

19     attachment)."

20             Sir, here we have a lieutenant-colonel in the VRS reporting to

21     the Drina Corps command about a unit called the Red Berets which he says

22     was stationed in a school that you say was two kilometres from your

23     workplace.  And you really never heard any of this information?

24        A.   No.  Never heard of the Red Berets.

25             MR. FARR:  If we could now have the next page in English.

Page 17585

 1        Q.   I'll begin reading with the sentence, "They took part in combat

 2     operations."

 3             It says:

 4             "They took part in combat operations at," and then as it's

 5     written here, "Kraglivode.  Afterwards, they took part in the mopping up

 6     of the train around Radenovice when two soldiers from the unit originally

 7     from Novi Sad were killed."

 8             Sir, in the notebook entry, the Mladic notebook entry we looked

 9     at a few minutes ago, we saw a reference to Kragivode in the context of

10     Operation Udar.  Here we see a reference to this unit participating in

11     combat in Kraglivode.

12             Sir, the truth is, Mr. Simatovic didn't just participate in the

13     planning of the counter-attack you described.  The unit that he and

14     Bozovic commanded actually took part in that fighting in co-ordination

15     with the VRS; correct?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object.  My

18     learned friend is asking the witness to make conclusions and analyse

19     evidence.  I don't see how he would be able to do that.

20             Also, the witness has said several times exactly what he knows

21     about it and yet my colleague continues asking the same questions again.

22             And, ultimately, the witness is being asked to analyse the

23     evidence in this case which, I believe, is inappropriate.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't think, as a matter of fact, that the witness

25     is asked to do that.  Let me just re-read ...

Page 17586

 1             He presents something to the witness and then puts a very leading

 2     question to the question, which he is entitled to do in

 3     cross-examination.

 4             Mr. Farr, you may proceed.  Or you can -- I think the witness has

 5     not yet answered the question.  Or did he?

 6             MR. FARR:  He has not, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No.

 8             Mr. Farr suggested to you in his question that the unit that he

 9     said Mr. Stanisic [sic] and Mr. Bozovic --

10             MR. FARR:  Mr. Simatovic and Mr. Bozovic, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm -- I apologise.

12             -- that that unit actually took part in the fighting in

13     co-ordination with the VRS and that was a unit in which Mr. Simatovic and

14     Mr. Bozovic were involved.  Is that -- can you confirm that?  It's

15     suggested to you by Mr. Farr.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot confirm this.  And I don't

17     know anything about this.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Farr.

19             MR. FARR:

20        Q.   And, sir, I'll just read you one more sentence from this

21     document.  This is the sentence that's at the top of the page in English,

22     and it begins with the words "In addition to apprehending persons ..."

23             That sentence reads:

24             "In addition to apprehending persons who refuse to go into

25     combat, they also control the bridge."

Page 17587

 1             Sir, it's our position that given the location of your border

 2     police station, you must have known about this unit, and you're claiming

 3     not to in order to assist the accused.

 4             Would you like to comment or respond to that?

 5             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, allow me, please.

 6             In the original document, we read: "The RS MUP."

 7             In the translation, we read: "The MUP of the Republic of Serbia."

 8             "RS MUP" can stand both for the MUP of the Republic of Serbia as

 9     well as the MUP of the Republika Srpska, and I believe that this is

10     something that the witness should be aware of.

11             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, I'm happy to ask him about that.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

13             MR. FARR:  Perhaps he could first respond to the proposition that

14     I put to him, and then I'll move on to that question.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then move further.

16             MR. FARR:

17        Q.   So, going back to my question, sir.  It was based on the sentence

18     of this document that says:  "In addition to apprehending persons who

19     refuse to go into combat, they also control the bridge."

20             And then I told you that it's our position that given where you

21     worked, you must have known about the existence of this unit, and you're

22     claiming not to in order to assist the accused.

23             And if you'd like to comment on or respond to that.

24        A.   Could you please be more specific and tell me which side of the

25     bridge did that unit control?  When it says "control" here, what side of

Page 17588

 1     the bridge is referred to?

 2        Q.   Well, sir, we only know what the document says.  But our position

 3     would be that even if this was a unit on the other side of the bridge,

 4     you would probably have known about their existence.  Even if you were at

 5     one end of the bridge and they were at the other end.

 6        A.   On our side, my police station and my unit had the exclusive

 7     right to control the bridge and the traffic.

 8             On the other side of the bridge, which was a war-struck area,

 9     control was carried out by ad hoc units that found themselves there.

10     There was no permanent police station as we had, which means today there

11     was one unit, the following day there was somebody else.  On our side, in

12     our police station, we never knew who would be there.  In principle, it

13     was the military police of the Army of the Republika Srpska.  And -- and

14     the Republika Srpska MUP as well.

15        Q.   All right.  And just one more quote from this report.  This

16     portion reads:

17             "They returned to camp on 14 May 1993, but refused to put

18     themselves at the command of the SBS," which the interpreter has

19     indicated is Skelani Independent Battalion, "saying that only the MUP

20     RS" --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  There is a sound coming from somewhere of which I do

22     not know what it is, but ...

23             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, it may be the witness with the case for

24     his glasses.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I can't see that from here.  We constantly

Page 17589

 1     hear your -- your ... what seems to be the box of your glasses.  It has

 2     been resolved.  Thank you very much, witness.

 3             Mr. Farr.

 4             MR. FARR:  Yes, Your Honour, I'll just repeat the quote from the

 5     beginning.

 6             The quote that we're interested in says:

 7             "They returned to camp on 14 May 1993, but refused to put

 8     themselves at the command of the SBS ... saying that only the MUP RS can

 9     be their commander because this is what they had supposedly been told

10     when they set out to return to Skelani."

11             Sir, are you able to commend on that excerpt in any way?

12        A.   Those were reports sent by military units, and I'm in no position

13     to provide any comment.

14        Q.   Okay.  I'll move on then.

15             MR. FARR:  Your Honours, this may be overly cautious, but I've

16     reached a point in my examination where it may be appropriate to advise

17     the witness pursuant to Rule 90(E).

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could all extra mikes be switched off.  Thank

19     you very much.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Mr. Farr says that he's going to put some

21     questions to you where he does not exclude for the possibility that you

22     might wish to object against making a statement because it might tend to

23     incriminate yourself.

24             Now, if a question is put to you and if a truthful answer would

25     be incriminating for yourself, then you may object to answer that

Page 17590

 1     question.  And the Chamber will then consider your objection and act in

 2     accordance with the Rules.  I'm not yet telling you exactly what that is,

 3     because that could go in various directions, but please be aware that if

 4     you are -- if your answer would incriminate yourself, that is, that you

 5     would expose yourself to further investigation or even prosecution, that

 6     you may object to answer that question.

 7             Mr. Petrovic.

 8             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may.

 9             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Petrovic,

10     yes, is there -- is it a matter you could raise with the witness having

11     his earphones on?

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that --

13     [In English] Your Honour, I believe that that's not the problem, because

14     I would just like to suggest to have this portion of his testimony in

15     private session just because of reasons witness gave as possible reasons

16     for protective measures, if that's in Chamber's favour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr.

18             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, I invited the witness at the beginning

19     when we were dealing with protective measures to state any -- any reasons

20     that he thought we might need to have those protective measures.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's --

22             MR. FARR:  He didn't raise these matters as a reason.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I think, as a matter of fact, that you may not have

24     understood exactly what Mr. Petrovic was hinting at.

25             We move into private session.


Page 17591

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17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I hereby now publicly announce that we adjourn.

20     And we will resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the 22nd of February, 9.00 in the

21     morning, in this same courtroom, II.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 22nd day

25                           of February, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.