Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 567

1 Tuesday, 13 January 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: If you would call the case for hearing.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-01-42-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Pavle Strugar.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. Ms. Somers.

9 MS. SOMERS: Good morning, Your Honours. The first Prosecution

10 witness to call would be Mr. Paul Davies.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE PARKER: If the witness could be affirmed.

14 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

15 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. If you would be seated, please.

18 Ms. Somers.

19 Examined by Ms. Somers:

20 Q. Would you give your complete and full name, please.

21 A. My name is Paul Davies.

22 Q. Mr. Davies, I think for the sake of time, I'm going to lead you

23 through a little bit of the background. But you are or have been for some

24 period of time associated with ITN. Is that correct?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 568

1 Q. And what is ITN?

2 A. Independent Television News. It's the news network of ITV, which

3 is the commercial television network in the UK.

4 Q. Where is it based?

5 A. It's based in London.

6 Q. What is your current position and what have been your positions up

7 to now with ITN?

8 A. I'm a senior news correspondent at ITN. Until recently I was an

9 international correspondent, specialising in areas of conflict.

10 Q. When did you begin your employ with ITN?

11 A. 1983.

12 Q. And the conflicts you have been covering for ITN include?

13 A. Dozens. Gulf war, Iran-Iraq War, Kurdistan --

14 Q. When you speak of the conflicts, could you give a time frame, the

15 years in which...?

16 A. Sure. Most of the serious conflicts in the world from 1985

17 through until recently, 2001, 2002.

18 Q. And among that conflict coverage, was the conflict in the former

19 Yugoslavia. Correct?

20 A. That was a large part of it, yes.

21 Q. Your time in Dubrovnik, would you give us, please, the range of

22 time you were there.

23 A. Yes. I was there from October the 31st, to November the 21st.

24 Q. Of what year, sir?

25 A. Of those -- three weeks -- in 1990. Was it? Was it 1990 or 1991.

Page 569

1 Sorry.

2 Q. Then your answer -- do I understand you correctly, you're talking

3 about 1991, the period of conflict?

4 A. Yeah.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Well, at the moment as I understand it, it's 1990

6 or 1991, is it?

7 THE WITNESS: Yes. I'm sure thinking about it it's 1991. It's

8 just not one of those things that you pin down too often. I remember the

9 days and the weeks and the months, maybe not the number of the year.

10 JUDGE PARKER: So we will settle for 1991 as your preferred year

11 at the moment.

12 THE WITNESS: It was the year that Dubrovnik was under siege and

13 the conflict was going on there, and 1991 would be that year, yes.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.


16 Q. What brought you in? What was your brief or your mission in

17 Dubrovnik?

18 A. The mission was to try and get inside into what was developing as

19 a siege. It had been developing for some time. We had been aware of it.

20 I had been working in other parts of the former Yugoslavia and I was asked

21 would I try to get into Dubrovnik and actually be on the inside of what

22 appeared to be developing into an interesting situation there.

23 Q. How did you get to Dubrovnik?

24 A. By sea. We flew from London to Austria, travelled over land to

25 Rijeka and caught a fast ferry boat from Rijeka. We were aware that a

Page 570

1 flotilla of boats were attempting to break the blockade, setting out from

2 Split and we tried to join up with them and succeeded in joining up with

3 them just outside the fortress.

4 Q. Did you attempt to go by automobile?

5 A. We didn't but many other teams had done so. It wasn't -- it was

6 no longer possible to go by ordinary legitimate routes, whether it was by

7 road or by water or by air. All of the normal routes into Dubrovnik had

8 been cut by the military situation.

9 Q. Okay. Again, you were unable to travel by auto because of...?

10 A. Because the roads were blocked by fighting, and when they weren't

11 blocked by fighting they were blocked by military roadblocks. These could

12 be from the various factions that were involved in it, but certainly

13 before you got into Dubrovnik there were roadblocks set up by the JNA, the

14 Yugoslavian army.

15 Q. Once you got to Dubrovnik, where were you accommodated?

16 A. We lived in a hotel, called the Argentina hotel. It was the hotel

17 alongside the Old Town and the hotel that was used by the European

18 Community monitoring people and by a number of diplomats.

19 Q. Did you have any contact with a body of persons called the

20 European Community Monitoring Mission?

21 A. We had regular contact with them. They had their base, their

22 headquarters, in the same hotel, and we would meet them on a daily basis,

23 both in the course of our work but also socially.

24 Q. What was the duration of your stay in Dubrovnik?

25 A. Three weeks.

Page 571

1 Q. From -- can you give a time frame?

2 A. From the 31st of October through to the 21st of November.

3 Q. I note that in your statement on page 2, just for correction, it

4 says at the bottom that: "We reached Dubrovnik on 31st December." Is

5 that a typographical error? Should that have read October?

6 A. That should read October.

7 Q. When you got to Dubrovnik, can you describe what the general mood

8 of the city was. And I speak of Dubrovnik city as including all parts

9 thereof.

10 A. I think fearful, concerned, already feeling the effects of the

11 blockade that was stopping supplies of food getting through. There were

12 problems with water already.

13 Q. What types of problems with water?

14 A. People were having difficulty. A lot of the normal methods of

15 getting water had stopped due to military action, we were told, in areas

16 that were now no longer under the control of the Croatian authorities and

17 some of the water supplies that had obviously come in from those areas had

18 been stopped.

19 Q. What about food?

20 A. Food was so short that they were starting rationing, distributing

21 food to the civilian population. I remember there were also problems with

22 power. The electricity wasn't working some of the time, and where

23 possible, people were using generators.

24 Q. Are you familiar with an area of Dubrovnik known as the Old Town?

25 A. Yes, I am.

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Page 573

1 Q. How did you become familiar with the Old Town?

2 A. I had actually been there, oddly enough, as a holidaymaker many

3 years before. I had visited it once working before when there had been a

4 serious earthquake in former Yugoslavia and I had gone there to cover the

5 effects of that.

6 But on this occasion, we were -- the hotel where we were living

7 was a very short walk from the Old Town. We could see the Old Town from

8 the hotel and we visited it on a daily basis. It was one of the main

9 reasons that we were actually there. At that stage, the fighting in and

10 around Dubrovnik was not on a large scale, compared to what was happening

11 else where in former Yugoslavia, places like Vukovar. But there was a

12 huge interest in Dubrovnik in the United Kingdom, because it was one of

13 the parts of former Yugoslavia that was known to many people because it

14 was a popular holiday resort and a very well-known cultural site.

15 Q. At the time you arrived in Dubrovnik was it still a popular

16 holiday resort and cultural -- holiday resort? To preface the question.

17 A. No, I didn't see tourists. The blockade had already been on for

18 some weeks by the time that we arrived and I didn't see any tourists

19 during the time we were there.

20 Q. What, when you think of the Old Town, would most prominently come

21 to your mind? What is it about the Old Town that was attractive to the

22 British tourist crowd?

23 A. It's a perfectly preserved medieval fortress. It's a stunning old

24 castle, the type that you would normally see around the world in a wrecked

25 form as opposed to a preserved form. It was also -- it was, is quite

Page 574

1 unique in that as well as being a stunning ancient monument, it's lived

2 in. It's a living structure as well.

3 Q. How do you mean that?

4 A. People live in the Old City, within the walls there are homes,

5 shops, cafes. It isn't just a tourist site that people get bussed into.

6 I mean, there are -- there is a population there.

7 Q. During the time you were there, how would you characterise that

8 population?

9 A. Well, the population was still there, but they were extremely

10 fearful.

11 Q. Let me be more clear. Was it -- were these regular people, were

12 they civilians? Who were they?

13 A. In the most part, they were regular people. They were the people

14 who had lived there before, their numbers swollen slightly by refugees,

15 people who had come in from outside to escape the fighting. There were a

16 small number of military people as well in and around the area. But the

17 vast majority of the people, certainly in the Old Town, were the people

18 who had always lived there.

19 Q. Am I to understand are you speaking of --

20 A. I'm talking about a civilian population.

21 Q. Inasmuch as you indicated that there was conflict already in

22 progress, did you see anything in the Old Town that suggested some

23 preparation to meet the eventualities of conflict, anything that was done

24 for protective purposes perhaps?

25 A. The only thing I can think of that'll answer that question would

Page 575

1 be -- an underground shelter had been prepared within the walls of the Old

2 City and people -- a large number of people did gather there at times of

3 shelling, bombing.

4 Q. Was there anything you might have observed about the structures,

5 the buildings, the monuments you referred to, was there anything

6 protective that you may have observed?

7 A. Protective, as in the form of protecting against attack, not

8 really. Certainly there was no -- there was nothing military there that

9 would do that. In many ways, the thing that appeared to be there to

10 protect the city, if only symbolically as it turned out, was the flags,

11 there were flags flying over the city, very visible, very large, almost

12 unreally large flags flying over the city, pale blue with the United

13 Nations motif on them, but basically saying, from the first time you saw

14 them that this is a protected site.

15 Q. Have you ever heard of an organisation called UNESCO?

16 A. I have and I believe that these were the flags I'm referring to,

17 belonging to them.

18 Q. Were you aware of the presence of anyone from UNESCO in Dubrovnik

19 during your time period there?

20 A. I was aware that there were people and I believe that they were

21 staying at the hotel, the same hotel that I was at. I had no contact with

22 them.

23 Q. How -- now, you said -- did I understand you correctly that you on

24 a daily basis were in the Old Town during your time period there?

25 A. I would think that in the 21, 22 days that I was there, there were

Page 576

1 probably only one or two days that I didn't spend some time in the Old

2 Town.

3 Q. Can you discuss what you've referred to in your statements as the

4 "ramparts". What is it about the ramparts of the Old Town that was

5 either useful to you or interesting to you?

6 A. Useful to us was the vantage position that they offered. They

7 were designed to give whoever was defending the Old Town a view over the

8 surrounding area and to offer them some protection as well with the walls.

9 And they gave them exactly that same view and degree of protection to a

10 cameraman who was trying to see as best he could what was happening

11 without exposing himself too much. We were using them because they gave

12 us just about the best view of the surrounding area.

13 Q. In your time in Dubrovnik, did you have an opportunity to look

14 carefully at the various locations in the city, and if you did, did you

15 ever observe anything that could be classified as a military position in

16 the Old Town?

17 A. No, I didn't.

18 Q. No, you didn't what?

19 A. I didn't, sorry. Yes, I was in a position to have observed

20 military positions, had they been there. I didn't, at any time, witness

21 anything that I would call a military position, not even men with rifles

22 or anything of that smaller nature on the ramparts. I didn't see weapons.

23 The only time that I possibly saw weapons during all that time in the Old

24 Town - and again, I stress possibly, because it's difficult to be

25 exact - was possibly pistols being carried by an occasional person who was

Page 577

1 armed in amongst the civilians in the town. But certainly on the ramparts

2 anything that you would call military position where you would be firing

3 out from the city, no, I saw nothing like that.

4 Q. If I understand you correctly, you saw nothing that would be

5 classified as heavy weaponry in the Old Town?

6 A. I saw nothing that could be classified as heavy weaponry in the

7 Old Town.

8 Q. In your time in Dubrovnik, did you personally ever observe any

9 outgoing fire from the Old Town?

10 A. No. I didn't observe outgoing fire from the Old Town. I

11 observed outgoing fire occasionally, but never from the Old Town.

12 Q. Did there come a point during your stay when the Old Town came

13 under shelling?

14 A. It did.

15 Q. When would you be able to pinpoint the first time?

16 A. The first time that I was really aware would have been the -- I

17 think it was the 10th of November. It was the second day, I believe, of

18 the sustained period of four days that Dubrovnik came under attack. And

19 on that day, if I remember rightly, a number of mortars fell into the

20 city. This was before the much, much larger attack on the Old Town.

21 Q. Do you have any recollection of -- excuse me, I'll rephrase that.

22 I withdraw that. Would you discuss, please, what happened in the Old Town

23 upon the shelling commencing. What was the reaction? Was there an

24 expectation or an anticipation that the Old Town would be shelled?

25 A. No, there was not an expectation. I think it's fair to say there

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Page 579

1 was always a fear that the fighting might spread to the Old Town, but

2 generally there was a belief that people were hanging on to that the Old

3 Town would be spared, and I think that was characterised by the number of

4 people who would come in from the modern parts of Dubrovnik into the Old

5 Town during the worst periods of shelling, thinking that they were going

6 to be safer there.

7 Q. Was there an understanding that there might have been a safe

8 climate in the Old Town, and if so, what was it based on?

9 A. There was an understanding, a belief, that it would be safe. And

10 I can only say it was built on a belief that people held. I don't know

11 that it was necessarily any agreement that was written anywhere, but there

12 was certainly a belief that this was a protected area, it wouldn't be

13 attacked and they would be safe if they were there. I also, if it's

14 helpful, in talking to some of the people that were defending Dubrovnik,

15 got from them a sense that they wouldn't take weapons into the Old City or

16 do anything from the Old City, because that might put at risk what they

17 saw as the protected status of the Old City.

18 Q. Did you ever learn of the presence of refugees in the Old City,

19 additional population to the native population?

20 A. I saw refugees in the Old City. I wasn't aware -- I didn't know

21 for sure that they were living there permanently. I saw them there on a

22 number of occasions, mostly in the underground shelters. I don't know

23 whether they were actually living there. I know various spaces that

24 refugees were living, but at the time that I saw refugees in the Old City,

25 they were in the underground shelter and I don't know whether that was a

Page 580

1 temporary home or permanent home for them.

2 Q. What about, to your knowledge, if you have it, of the presence of

3 refugees in the municipal areas surrounding the Old Town? Was there a

4 refugee population that you had become aware of?

5 A. Yes, there was a sizeable refugee population. Most of them were

6 being housed in the hotel that no longer had tourists to look out for

7 them. Notably the Belvedere Hotel, which was just along the coast from

8 the Argentina where I was staying, had a large number of refugees there

9 and I was aware of other hotels having refugees. And indeed my own hotel

10 became busier with refugees as some of the other hotels that the refugees

11 were initially housed in were damaged by shelling.

12 Q. Did you have any observations about the age or anything about the

13 condition of the refugees you may have seen?

14 A. The majority of the refugees that we saw were -- well, they were

15 civilians, they were elderly or women and children. There didn't seem to

16 be amongst the refugees that we saw, a sizeable number of men. I don't

17 know the explanation of that, but the refugees that we saw being housed

18 was because they were being given priority. I don't know -- the old, the

19 young and particularly women with children.

20 Q. Did you ever become aware of any of the housing or hotels

21 accommodating the refugee population coming under fire from the JNA

22 forces?

23 A. Yes, yes, I did. We visited two hotels in the early part of our

24 stay that had been hit by shelling, and we saw refugees there who had

25 survived the shelling. And later, during the greater onslaught, after the

Page 581

1 9th of November when the Belvedere Hotel was hit and practically

2 destroyed, a number of the refugees who had been staying there moved down

3 the coast to the hotel where we were staying and were living in the

4 corridors and various areas of our hotel.

5 Q. In your own hotel, the Argentina, was there any sense that because

6 it housed internationals it would enjoy any particular protected status?

7 A. It was certainly a hope that it would do from those that were

8 living there.

9 Q. Did that hope materialise?

10 A. No, it didn't. It was also struck. We did believe that it would

11 be one of the last places to be attacked. It was one of the reasons why

12 we lived there. There were a number of flags flying over it, again, there

13 was an UN flag. There was the flag that the monitors were using. There

14 was also a British flag; it was being used as the -- as a temporary

15 consulate by the British consul.

16 Q. In your statement given to the Office of the Prosecutor, when you

17 discuss the events of 8th November, 1991, you make a comment about a

18 location called Srdj. What was Srdj?

19 A. Srdj was a -- well, it's a large hill, a mountain, that overlooks

20 the Old Town of Dubrovnik. It has on it an old Napoleonic fort and this

21 became very a strategically important site during the siege. It was held

22 by the Croatians, and because it quite literally looked down over the Old

23 Town - you could see it was like looking down on a street plan - whoever

24 held it virtually held the city or certainly had the Old Town in its -- in

25 their grasp. And therefore, it came under sustained attack over a number

Page 582

1 of days. We visited it on a number of occasions.

2 Q. Are you familiar with another area called Zarkovica?

3 A. Zarkovica is another mountain, a very large hill. It is to the

4 south of Dubrovnik, just down the coast from the Hotel Argentina, which

5 means it's also very close to the Old Town. And it had already been

6 captured by the JNA. And they had a number of heavy guns on the top of

7 it. Most of the time that we were there, it was the main position that

8 the gunfire we were aware of was coming from into Dubrovnik.

9 Q. Were you able to visit Zarkovica during your time there or go

10 behind JNA lines during your time there?

11 A. No, we weren't. There was a road that led straight from the Hotel

12 Argentina in that direction, but there was firing on it. It wasn't a safe

13 road. And from time to time there was sniper fire down onto the road.

14 Q. Coming from which positions, if you know?

15 A. From the JNA positions. It was very difficult, if not impossible

16 to work out what the policy was, because a lot of the time there wouldn't

17 be sniper fire and then there would. And certainly a journalist friend of

18 mine was shot outside the Hotel Argentina and had to be evacuated, and

19 people didn't go up that road.

20 Q. Are you aware of any military activity between those two

21 mountains, Srdj and Zarkovica? If so, can you discuss it, please?

22 A. There certainly was military activity. A lot of it seemed to be

23 happening at night. A lot of gunfire, we could see a lot of tracer fire,

24 the glowing rounds that you see going through the night sky. We knew of

25 people who died -- who went off to fight or protect or whatever that area

Page 583

1 and didn't come back after some of this fighting during the night. It was

2 a disputed area.

3 Q. The weaponry on these two high points, do you have any knowledge

4 what type of weaponry was at the disposal of the Croatians on Srdj?

5 A. I went up there a couple of times, and I know what I saw, and I

6 saw predominantly people with rifles. I did see one, at least one, heavy

7 machine-gun that the Croatians had. I also saw some, what I would call,

8 smaller mortars compared to some of the others that were used in the area.

9 There were also in the hands of the Croatians. And at times they had them

10 on Srdj and at times they moved them to other positions. They tried to

11 keep them very mobile so they wouldn't be targets.

12 As far as Zarkovica is concerned you could see the barrels of

13 artillery pieces and I believe there were also tents up there, but

14 certainly we could see the barrels of artillery pieces on top of

15 Zarkovica. And at times of shelling, you could film those and see them

16 recoil and the puff of smoke that came from them as they were firing. And

17 then a few seconds later there would be an explosion in Dubrovnik.

18 Q. Are you in a position to compare the weaponry that the Croatians

19 had, the defenders on Srdj had, with the weaponry available to the JNA

20 forces on Zarkovica, to give your assessment of it, if you would like to

21 tell us?

22 A. Yes, I am. I'm not a military expert, but you didn't need to be a

23 military expert to see that it was completely one-sided.

24 Q. What do you mean by that?

25 A. That one side had heavy artillery, tanks, planes, warships.

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Page 585

1 Q. Which side would that be?

2 A. That was the JNA. And the other side, the Croatians, had mostly

3 small weapons, rifles, pistols, and a small collection of other weaponry

4 that wasn't particularly effective, and in many cases looked homemade.

5 But it did include things like small artillery pieces. We were aware of a

6 small, of a limited number of those that the Croatians had.

7 Q. When you say small artillery pieces, what are you referring to, if

8 you know?

9 A. I'm referring to the calibre of the weapons and their

10 capability --

11 Q. Such as? What type of weapon are you talking about?

12 A. We're talking about -- I suppose to a nonexpert we're talking

13 about cannon-type guns, guns that are mounted on wheels and can be moved

14 around. And depending on their calibre and their power and the type of

15 shells that they can fire is how effective they are. These were of the

16 smaller variety, nothing like the size of the weapons we could see on the

17 opposing mountaintops.

18 Q. Which means which mountaintop?

19 A. Which means Zarkovica and the areas that the shelling was coming

20 from outside of Dubrovnik.

21 Q. Did you have any information about the state of Croatian

22 ammunition resupply? What was the situation with the ammunition for the

23 Croatian forces, if you know?

24 A. I can only say what I saw and what I was told. In both cases, I

25 was told they were extremely short on ammunition. They were having great

Page 586

1 problems getting ammunition through the blockade, the naval blockade.

2 They couldn't get anything overland. They were shipping it in where they

3 could on speedboats at night and they were running into the blockade, and

4 in many cases not being able to get through. When we went to positions

5 like the position on the top of Mount Srdj, we were being told they had so

6 little ammunition that they were under orders only to use it in extreme

7 circumstances.

8 Q. What would that mean?

9 A. Basically when they were fired on, but even then only when they

10 thought it could be effective. There was a policy, we were told -- my

11 awareness comes only from what I was told. But there was a policy of only

12 firing when they were fired upon, in order not to provoke an attack from

13 opposition that was so much superior.

14 Q. In your statement you discuss an attack on the 9th of November.

15 And I'd like to try to get an idea of how that attack took place. First

16 of all, was the Old Town implicated in the attack?

17 A. The Old Town -- I don't believe the Old Town was implicated on the

18 9th. I think that it was the 10th that we became aware of mortars falling

19 into the Old Town and investigated that. If my memory serves me well, the

20 9th was when the much greater attack on Dubrovnik started and it involved

21 bombing, planes bombing, warships appearing off the coast and shelling and

22 using what appeared to be smaller guns. And some of the boats that I

23 would characterise more as gunboats than warships. And the artillery

24 firing from Zarkovica and other areas that we couldn't see. I'm not sure

25 if on that day the Old Town was struck, certainly not as badly as it was

Page 587

1 later when we became more aware of it.

2 Q. You make reference to a village called Bosanka. Do you have any

3 recollection of its significance or its location in relation to Srdj or

4 Zarkovica?

5 A. I believe it's somewhere beneath the two, if not directly in

6 between the two, in that sort of area. It was in the disputed area, the

7 area from which we would often hear gunfire at night.

8 Q. Who took that position?

9 A. The JNA took it. At the time we arrived, it was still held by the

10 Croatians. The JNA took it.

11 Q. Your description of the greater attack, did that effect areas

12 immediately surrounding the Old City of Dubrovnik?

13 A. Yes, it did.

14 Q. Were these areas which contained a civilian population?

15 A. They were, yes.

16 Q. Going into your discussion about the 10th of November and the Old

17 Town, describe, please, how you first found about the shelling. Where

18 were you in the Old Town when it was shelled on that date?

19 A. We were filming somewhere other than the Old Town. We had a

20 number of other vantage positions that gave views of other parts of

21 Dubrovnik, and we had been touring the town as best we could in the

22 circumstances to try and get a range of pictures of what was happening and

23 also to see at times the attack would be concentrated on parts of

24 Dubrovnik and very little on other parts. And we were basically just

25 trying to find out where that was under attack and following the sound of

Page 588

1 noise and impact explosions to try and work out exactly who and what was

2 on the receiving end. During the time that we were doing that, and we had

3 been around the port area, we had been to a degree sort of at the side of

4 Srdj to one of the roads that gave you a good view of some of the more

5 modern parts of the city, while we were doing that, we became aware, we

6 were told - I can't remember who by, there were newspaper journalists

7 there as well, but also there were a number of Croatians around who would

8 give you bits of information that was sometimes was rumour and sometimes

9 turned out to be factually correct - but we heard that the Old Town had

10 been hit, and at that stage that was still very, very unusual. We had

11 been there quite a period of time by then, and we were starting to get

12 into the mindset that the Old Town would be spared. So when we heard that

13 it had been hit, we made our way there to investigate. While we were

14 there, we heard an explosion of what we believed was a mortar in the

15 Old Town. But we were told that there had been three others before we got

16 there. And we were shown the damage.

17 Q. Did you become aware of any damage to any culturally valuable

18 institutions in the Old Town on that date?

19 A. We were told and then we were shown damage at the Franciscan

20 complex, of which there is a monastery there. And there's also, I don't

21 know whether they actually call it a convent, but part of it there are

22 monks and part of it there are nuns.

23 Q. On the 11th of November, does that date have any significance to

24 you, other than that you were in the Old Town of Dubrovnik?

25 A. It has huge significance in that it was the day that everything

Page 589

1 really went -- seemed to go a bit crazy, and went up several gears in

2 terms of the attack. It also has a personal significance; November the

3 11th is my birthday.

4 Q. What happened in terms of the Old Town, that you recollect, on the

5 11th of November?

6 A. On November the 11th, the Old Town was hit and it's my

7 belief - and I'm as sure as I can be - that on that occasion it wasn't

8 just from land that it was hit, but it was also from the sea because I saw

9 ships firing and then, it was very close to an impact on the walls of the

10 Old Town. But what was happening on that day was a much, much bigger

11 attack on various parts of Dubrovnik. And a lot of it was falling -- a

12 lot of the shells were falling very, very close to the Old Town inasmuch

13 as we found a filming position on the ramparts near one of the gates. And

14 we were able to film first the shells being fired from Zarkovica, and then

15 to virtually follow their trajectory and then certainly follow the noise

16 of it, and film the impact. They were falling just over our heads, over

17 the walls of the Old Town and destroying buildings alongside the Old Town.

18 And it was at that time, after quite a long period, hours, of watching,

19 filming damage to these areas alongside the Old Town that we became aware

20 that the Old Town itself was hit. And that's when I observed the ships

21 firing.

22 Q. There's a bit more detail I would like to get about what happened

23 that day, but you made reference to some kind of trajectory, and I guess

24 you're suggesting the recognition of projectiles. You described in your

25 statement a pop. What is it that you were trying to indicate? Was there

Page 590












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Page 591

1 some sequence that became apparent?

2 A. Yes. It's very unusual. When you work trying to illustrate,

3 trying to get pictures of what's happening in a conflict like this, one of

4 the most difficult things to actually film is the point of shells, mortars

5 being fired, and particularly the point of impact. Normally, when you

6 look at war footage on television or the cinema, you see plumes of smoke

7 and lots of damage and casualties. It's quite rare to actually hear and

8 see the point of impact because the cameraman can only film when he sees

9 that. On this particular day, and I was with a very, very experienced war

10 cameraman, the shelling was so heavy and so consistent, we were able to

11 recognise a pattern of noise followed by the trajectory of the shell and

12 the point of impact.

13 Q. What is that pattern? Can you describe it for us?

14 A. We would be standing on the walls looking and filming towards

15 Zarkovica. We would hear -- it was like a pop noise, slightly muffled,

16 coming from quite a distance away and obviously because it was from a

17 distance away, you weren't hearing the exact moment it was fired. You

18 were then able to, having heard that pop noise, you began to recognise how

19 many seconds it would take before that shell, because it became quite

20 apparent that that shell was being fired directly at us, albeit a few feet

21 over our heads, they were falling. Where they were coming from was much

22 higher than where we were. So they were coming down and then over our

23 heads. So you recognised the pop noise. A number of seconds before the

24 shell would arrive, you were able to turn the camera on, hear the whistle

25 of the shell as it went over your head, and actually have the camera

Page 592

1 pointed at the place that you knew or believed that the shell was going

2 the impact. And it happened over and over again. It meant that you were

3 actually able to have the camera trained on a building and watch it's roof

4 actually take the impact of the shell and the shell go through the roof

5 and then the big explosion when it hit cars and other civilian areas. You

6 were able to do the same. It's very unusual. I've never done it, seen

7 it, or experienced it before or since.

8 Q. If you were able to hear the pop and then subsequently observe the

9 impact, would it be fair to say that others around you would also have the

10 same perception?

11 A. They would. They would. They would. I would have to say that

12 most of them would be in the shelters, but they would. And there's a very

13 sinister whistling noise as the -- if you're anywhere near where the

14 shells are being aimed at, a very sinister whistling noise as it comes in

15 and then a few seconds of silence before the impact and then you wait.

16 Because even when you're as experienced as we were and had seen lots of

17 these shells by now going safely over your head and landing a bit further

18 down, you didn't know it was definitely going to happen every time and

19 that was always the worst time.

20 And when you -- occasionally, we would be filming in shelters when

21 people -- when the bombardment was happening overhead. That, for people,

22 was always the time when you could see on their faces that they were

23 terrified, having heard the original bang, and then waiting for that

24 whistle and then the silence, and wondering where it was going

25 to -- where the explosion was going to be.

Page 593

1 Q. While you were on the ramparts and were able to observe, did you

2 at any time see any Croatian forces on those ramparts with any weaponry?

3 A. No, not at all. And I was looking for it.

4 Q. Just turning back perhaps a day or so. The use of helicopters,

5 was there a use made by either side of helicopters that you could observe

6 during this time period, during these days?

7 A. I believe there was. And again, some of what I say is just based

8 on my own interpretation of what I saw. But at times of shelling, I would

9 see JNA helicopters up in positions where they were safely out of range of

10 anything that could be fired at them from the ground. But in positions

11 where they could see what the effect of the shelling was, where the shells

12 were falling, what damage was being caused.

13 Q. Did you ever observe any type of weapon that would be considered

14 wire guided?

15 A. I did. And that was on the 12th of November.

16 Q. What type of weapon is it? Can you describe it, what its effect

17 is, and from which forces it emanated.

18 A. To describe it, it's a missile that has a length of wire behind

19 it. In that sense, it's very easy to -- you don't have to be an expert to

20 recognise a wire-guided missile. We were not in a position to see who had

21 fired it, or indeed, it being fired, but we could see quite clearly where

22 it was coming from. And it was coming from the area that was held by the

23 JNA and it was being fired across the water in front of the hotels and the

24 Hotel Argentina, which is where I was when I witnessed this, at the Old

25 Town.

Page 594

1 Q. Did you observe impacts of this wire-guided projectiles in the

2 Old Town?

3 A. I observed and filmed dozens of impacts.

4 Q. You described a number of types of weaponry and approaches by the

5 forces under the control of the JNA. Did you have any observation about

6 any aspect of coordination, did anything occur to you about elements of

7 coordination with regard to these various forces and the various types of

8 weaponry used?

9 A. Only inasmuch as after a period of time you began to feel

10 patterns, what was the norm and what wasn't the norm. And we became aware

11 over this particular period of the 9th to the 12th of November that the

12 whole thing had escalated and ratcheted up a notch or seven. Before there

13 would be periods of shelling, there would be occasions when planes would

14 appear and bomb certain targets and then it would stop and you didn't know

15 when it was going to restart. There would be periods during the night

16 where there would be fighting, and again it would go sometimes for three

17 or four hours. But it would stop and then there would be long periods

18 when it didn't. When we came to this particular period, starting on the

19 9th, that changed. We became aware that the artillery was firing from

20 various places, including Zarkovica which we would see, that ships had

21 appeared off the coast and were firing for long periods of time, that the

22 planes were still coming and bombing --

23 Q. These are from JNA --

24 A. These are all JNA forces. It was all happening at the same time

25 and on a scale that we hadn't seen before. At the time in the report that

Page 595

1 I filed, I called it a coordinated attack and the first time that we had

2 seen a coordinated attack involving land, sea, and air. And by that, I

3 simply meant that for the first time we were seeing land, sea, and air

4 forces used together and in a way and on a scale that we hadn't seen

5 before. That was a complete change from what we had been witnessing

6 before.

7 Q. From what you have described up to now the Croatian forces appear

8 to have been land forces; would that be correct? Any Croatian defence was

9 land-based?

10 A. I saw no air defences. And the only sea, if you would like to

11 call them defences, that I saw were high-pass speedboats that were not

12 fitted with any guns but were used for trying to run the blockade, to take

13 out the wounded people and bring in ammunition.

14 Q. You had visited Srdj. Is there any particular feature of

15 religious significance up on Srdj?

16 A. There is a very large stone cross on the top of Srdj. I don't

17 know it's full significance, but I do know that it seemed to become a

18 target, particularly at this period of 9th to 12th of November.

19 Q. Did you observe anything about it on the 10th of November? Did

20 something happen to that cross?

21 A. We had seen -- Even earlier than that, we had seen shells landing

22 around it in a way that suggested to a layman that it wasn't a coincidence

23 that they were so close to it. On the 10th, we actually saw it being hit,

24 and later on, although I didn't witness and film it, it was hit a number

25 of times.

Page 596












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Page 597

1 Q. Did something happen to you personally on the 11th of November?

2 A. I was caught by one of the -- in the blast of one of the shells

3 that was fired. I believe this one came from the sea, I believe. And I

4 was blown off my feet and had a piece of shrapnel embedded in my back.

5 Not a very large piece and it didn't do any permanent damage. I was also

6 unable to -- my hearing disappeared for a short time.

7 Q. Where were you when you were injured?

8 A. Again, I was on the ramparts. It was at a time of very heavy

9 shelling, and it was on one of the occasions that we were filming in

10 particular the shelling from Zarkovica that was falling around the Old

11 Town. I became aware as we were doing that that there was an explosion

12 actually on the ramparts relatively close to where I was. It was still

13 unusual enough, the Old Town being hit, to warrant investigation. And I

14 went around to see if it had done any damage or whether it had just hit

15 the outside of the old walls. And it was while I was looking to see what

16 that first impact had done that I had a loud whistling noise and was

17 caught by a second impact.

18 Q. You have referred to what has been characterised as a deliberately

19 sustained assault against the Old City and the Old Town on the 12th of

20 November. Would you please tell us why you have characterised it that

21 way.

22 A. Because -- well, because it was clearly deliberate and it was

23 certainly sustained. It went on for many hours. It seemed to be a

24 culmination of what had been -- what we had seen on previous days. And on

25 the 12th for the first time we saw the attack actually being concentrated

Page 598

1 or the greater part of the attack being concentrated on the Old Town.

2 Even during the earlier days and quite possibly the 11th was the day when

3 the most shells fell on Dubrovnik, but even during that time, there'd been

4 a relatively small number of shells actually falling in the Old Town. The

5 12th was the day that we could see that the Old Town was now the target,

6 and that was the day we saw the wire-guided missiles being fired again and

7 again and again at the Old Town, hitting its walls and going into the

8 Old Town.

9 Q. In your view, based on your having been there, did you see any

10 justification, provocation for that type of sustained, deliberate attack?

11 A. I didn't.

12 Q. The European Community Monitoring Mission, we'll call them ECMM,

13 did you observe that they were able to do anything to alleviate the

14 situation, or what was your impression of their ability to actually

15 intervene under these conditions?

16 A. They were ineffective. They wanted to. They had neither the

17 leverage nor the ability to make a significant difference. Earlier, they

18 had been involved in attempting to negotiate cease-fires that we were

19 aware of. And they hadn't come to anything. And I know that they were,

20 from talking to them socially - staying in the same hotel - I know they

21 were deeply frustrated by the situation that they were in, because most of

22 the time all they could actually do is count the shells. And a lot of

23 their jobs in the end came down to just making a record of what was

24 happening, as opposed to being able to influence it. Certainly as the

25 attack on Dubrovnik intensified, there was less and less that they felt

Page 599

1 they could do to the point where they were for periods of time, long

2 periods of time, effectively trapped in the hotel, and whether

3 deliberately or not, becoming targets themselves with shells hitting the

4 Argentina hotel where they were based and having to take cover in safer

5 parts of the building.

6 Q. Targeted by whose forces?

7 A. Again by the JNA.

8 Q. Was there a perception among the civilian population, if you know,

9 in Dubrovnik that there was some form of safety offered by this mission?

10 A. There was certainly a hope that as long as the mission was there

11 that it afforded some safety. There was also a belief that things that

12 they'd heard about happening in other parts of former Yugoslavia wouldn't

13 happen there and wouldn't happen to them as long as there were

14 international observers in the area.

15 Q. The wire-guided missiles on the 12th of November, do you have any

16 estimate of how many you may have observed? Did you attempt to keep any

17 type of mental record?

18 A. No. We filmed 15 impacts, 16, 17 impacts. We used more than half

19 of those in the report that we used. We started filming sometime after

20 the use of the wire-guided missiles had started. And it was still going

21 on when we had moved on to film other things. My personal belief from

22 what I saw was that dozens were used, not three figures, but certainly not

23 10 or 20 or even 30. Some were between 30 and three figures, but that is

24 a very rough estimate. I certainly didn't count them, and they weren't

25 the only thing that was happening at the time, so they weren't the only

Page 600

1 thing we were concentrating on. Having watched them for an hour or so,

2 there were other things to do.

3 Q. Now, these wire-guided missiles were used exclusively by the JNA

4 forces?

5 A. I certainly didn't see anybody else using them and at no time did

6 we see any evidence that anybody other than the JNA had them. And we

7 hadn't seen them being used before that day by the JNA.

8 Q. Are you able to comment on what areas were impacted upon in the

9 Old Town when you did your filming?

10 A. Well, from the time that the use of the wire-guided missiles

11 started, it was the -- they were coming in from the south of Dubrovnik and

12 either hitting or passing over the area of the Old Town where there was a

13 little port, protected port area. They were hitting the walls of the Old

14 Town. They were hitting the boats that were moored in the sheltered area,

15 and some of them were passing over the walls of the Old Town. And there

16 were explosions inside the Old Town.

17 Q. Did you have any observation as to whether or not any water craft

18 may have been affected?

19 A. I mean, our film showed the moment of impact when a number of

20 boats were hit and exploded and set on fire.

21 Q. Any vehicles?

22 A. A number of cars, the same thing.

23 Q. The activity on the 12th from the JNA, it was not exclusively then

24 wire-guided. Were there also -- did you observe other either artillery or

25 other forms of infantry weaponry, like mortars, used?

Page 601

1 A. We were aware of artillery being used, but our concentration was

2 on the wire-guided missiles because we hadn't seen anything like it

3 before, but those weren't the only explosions we were hearing that day.

4 Q. Can you comment on what, if any, response may have come from the

5 Croatian forces from this what you call sustained attack by the JNA

6 forces?

7 A. During the time of the sustained attack, the Croatians fired back

8 using the weaponry that they had. The only qualification I would put on

9 that is that I don't believe it was from the Old Town, but they were using

10 the weaponry that they had. And as I said earlier, I saw small artillery

11 pieces and I saw mortars on the back of lorries being moved around. And

12 there were clear attempts by the Croatians to get those pieces as close as

13 they possibly could to what was firing against them. In many cases that

14 was impossible, because planes and ships were well out of range. But

15 there were a number of attempts to hit the artillery positions,

16 particularly on Zarkovica. And on one of the days we filmed -- on a

17 number of days we filmed unsuccessful attempts to do that with Croatian

18 mortars landing short of the JNA positions. But on one particular day we

19 filmed a, for the Croatians, a successful strike where they hit the

20 position on the top of Zarkovica, and there was what we interpreted as

21 being a series of secondary explosions that we interpreted as being an

22 ammunition dump or something like that was detonated, because there was

23 one main attack followed by a whole series of smaller explosions.

24 Q. Are you able to say there was no outgoing responsive fire - excuse

25 me - coming from the Old Town that you observed?

Page 602












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Page 603

1 A. I am certainly able to say there was no outgoing fire from the Old

2 Town that I observed.

3 Q. In the attempts to get closer to the position at Zarkovica that

4 you referred to, are you able to indicate that these attempts did not come

5 from the Old Town, in other words they were outgoing fire, that these

6 attempts also did not emanate from the Old Town?

7 A. I don't believe they came from the Old Town; I certainly didn't

8 see them come from the Old Town. I was aware of attempts to -- clearly

9 more than attempts to -- successful attempts to move mobile mortars into

10 positions alongside the coast close to the Hotel Belvedere which was about

11 the closest you could probably get to Zarkovica and still be in the

12 Croatian-controlled territory. There was firing from there.

13 We also heard on more than one occasion but were never able to

14 film it, but were certainly aware that it happened, of the mortars being

15 moved along the coast close to the Hotel Argentina. Again, it being one

16 of the closest positions that you could get to the JNA position on top of

17 the mountain.

18 Q. Are you aware of any effective Croatian response to the naval

19 forces of the JNA?

20 A. Not at all. That really wasn't possible, they were sitting so far

21 out at sea.

22 Q. You have provided a video of approximately 11 minutes. And I

23 would ask for the exhibit number, if I may, please.

24 MS. SOMERS: It has not been assigned a number. I'm sorry, I

25 thought it was prenumbered. I will provide a copy of the transcript from

Page 604

1 that particular video clip.

2 Q. You have spoken during the course of your testimony --

3 JUDGE PARKER: This will be received as an exhibit.

4 THE REGISTRAR: The video will be Exhibit Number P19 and the

5 transcript of the video, P19.1.

6 MS. SOMERS: Thank you.

7 Q. During the course of your testimony, you have discussed the

8 filming of the attacks during the time period of 9 to 12 November. And

9 what is in front of you is a transcript of a segment that is of the

10 attacks. Have you previously reviewed, with the Office of the Prosecutor,

11 the clip of these attacks?

12 A. I have, yes.

13 Q. And can you tell us, do these attacks, first of all, represent the

14 area of Dubrovnik that was the Old Town?

15 A. They do -- part of them do.

16 Q. All right.

17 A. A part of them do.

18 Q. And do they depict or do they show the Old Town during the time

19 period of 9 to 12 November, 1991?

20 A. They do.

21 Q. And did the content of them reflect what you actually observed at

22 the time that you were reporting for ITN?

23 A. It does. It's a concentrated view of them. They reflect, they're

24 a sample of what happened over that -- a much longer period. For

25 everything you see, that there were 10, 20, 30 others, but they are an

Page 605

1 example.

2 Q. Was there particular footage provided to your home office that

3 was -- transferred up to your home office for publication?

4 A. It was, yes.

5 Q. And was it shown?

6 A. It was shown. It was shown around the world.

7 MS. SOMERS: If I can please ask you to turn your attention to

8 your monitors. We will be using the Sanction method of presentation,

9 Your Honours, which is a software that actually has the video for you.

10 And if there's any issue with its mechanical part, please let us know.

11 [Videotape played]

12 [Please refer to Exhibit P19.1 for video transcript]

13 JUDGE PARKER: Is there any capacity to increase the sound?

14 MS. SOMERS: We'll inquire with ...

15 JUDGE PARKER: The suggestion from the technical staff is that we

16 might have our first morning break at this point whilst they pay some

17 attention to the equipment in the hope of improving the sound. We will

18 therefore break now for 20 minutes.

19 --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.

21 JUDGE PARKER: If the exhibit is now ready to be played.

22 [Videotape played]

23 [Please refer to Exhibit P19.1 for video transcript]


25 Q. Mr. Davies, was it you who appeared in that video?

Page 606

1 A. It was, yes.

2 Q. Was it you who narrated the video?

3 A. It was.

4 MS. SOMERS: Your Honours, I'm not -- I want to make sure I

5 understood correctly, had the Chamber admitted this exhibit, P19 and

6 P19.1?

7 JUDGE PARKER: We have.

8 MS. SOMERS: Thank you. I will not need to further move for its

9 admission.

10 Q. Did you have any opportunity after the shelling subsided to review

11 the areas which were damaged in the Old Town?

12 A. Yes. On the following day, the 13th, we went into the Old Town

13 briefly.

14 Q. What were your observations?

15 A. A lot of damage, shell impacts. You could still see some of the

16 missiles that hadn't exploded stuck in the walls of the Old Town, stuck in

17 the areas of the harbour where they had fallen. You could see the damage

18 from those that had exploded, both on the walls and on the roadways where

19 they had landed and where they had landed on buildings causing damage and

20 fires, where they had landed on cars that had been set on fire and

21 destroyed. And most of the boats that had been moored in that little

22 harbour in front of the Old Town had been set on fire and sunk.

23 Q. Was it your observation that the damage was concentrated in any

24 particular area, or did you observe a dispersal of damage?

25 A. There was a dispersal inasmuch as shells had fallen across the

Page 607

1 Old Town, really. But there was certainly a concentration of damage on

2 that side, the south of the Old Town, from which the missiles were firing

3 and where they had impacted against the walls and in some cases dropped

4 over the walls into the Old Town.

5 Q. The missiles from Zarkovica?

6 A. Yes, or the position beneath Zarkovica where they were fired from

7 but certainly from the direction of Zarkovica.

8 Q. From JNA forces?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you ever attempt to count the number of shells, that may have

11 been more for your own information, but did you attempt to do so?

12 A. We did. Not during the time that the wire-guided missiles were

13 being fired, but slightly earlier than that in the day. As an exercise we

14 counted the explosions to try and get some sort of -- we were becoming

15 aware that this was very, very heavy bombardment, more so than anything

16 we'd experienced, and we just tried to gauge it in some way. And we

17 counted the incoming explosions. We gave up -- we reached the number

18 1.000 and gave up on the exercise and returned to other things that we

19 were doing. But we heard 100 -- sorry, I don't mean 100, I mean 1.000.

20 We heard 1.000 explosions, and that's the point that we stopped counting.

21 The explosions continued.

22 Q. Your video depicts a fair amount of impact with resultant fire.

23 Can you comment on the capacity to extinguish the fire for the citizens of

24 the Old Town?

25 A. Very difficult. Mostly because people weren't on the streets or

Page 608

1 in any position to do that; they were sheltering. At that time, the

2 bombardment was so intense that nobody was on the streets.

3 Q. On the 13th -- was that -- that would be the day after the

4 shelling?

5 A. The 13th was the day that we went into Dubrovnik Old Town and

6 tried to get an idea of the damage that had been caused. The 11th was the

7 day that we counted the 1.000 explosions and then gave up counting. And

8 the 12th was the day when the Old Town took the most damage.

9 Q. The ECMM personnel were present and were shown in your video, did

10 they remain in Dubrovnik very much beyond that, do you know?

11 A. No. They withdrew from Dubrovnik on the 14th. One of the reasons

12 we were able to get some sort of a view on the 13th as to the damage that

13 had been caused was because the -- after reaching the -- its heaviest

14 level on the 11th and 12th, there appeared to be a cessation of shelling

15 on the 13th, not total, but pretty much so, and we were informed that

16 talks were taking place and one of the things those talks were involved in

17 was negotiating some sort of a safe passage out of Dubrovnik for women,

18 children, and other noncombatants that included the European Community

19 monitors and most of the few remaining journalists who were there.

20 Q. What was the reason for the departure of ECMM, first part of the

21 question; second part, was it expected; third part, how did the population

22 view it?

23 A. The reason was for their own safety. It wasn't expected. It was

24 expected by them, and some of them expressed their disappointment at the

25 decision to me. And the reaction of the population was one of almost

Page 609

1 impending doom. Basically there was a fear that this taking out of women,

2 children, and anybody from outside who could witness what was going on was

3 the prelude to something sinister that was about to happen. The feeling

4 was that Dubrovnik was about to fall, and that only males and males of

5 what's loosely termed "fighting age," were going to be left behind. And

6 there was a terrible fear throughout Dubrovnik as to what was going to

7 happen then. When the ferry that carried out the women and children and

8 the ECMM monitors and others left, there were dreadful scenes on the dock

9 side with women trying to get their teenage sons on to the boat. And in

10 the end, police and armed men having to fight them back. The boat would

11 only take a certain number of people; it was going to be checked by the

12 federal military once it reached waters outside the port of Dubrovnik.

13 And nobody beyond a certain age was going to be able to go beyond there.

14 And there were dreadful scenes with people being forced back with rifle

15 butts, because they were in a state of panic to try and get their kids out

16 of there, fearing that any male that stayed behind wouldn't survive.

17 Q. During the time you were in Dubrovnik, did Mount Srdj -- did Srdj

18 ever come into the hands of the JNA or did it remain under the Croatian

19 forces during your time there?

20 A. I was never aware of it falling, but I was aware of a time when

21 the bombardment of it was so intense that the Croatians withdrew from it.

22 They went back up the next morning, had a rethink, and it hadn't actually

23 been taken. But it was so bad that they did pull out. When the

24 bombardment was at its heaviest and some of what you saw in the video

25 there with shells falling, falling on it, hundreds of shells falling on

Page 610

1 it, there was no way you could survive staying on the outside, even the

2 people who were supposed to be protecting it, defending it, withdrew into

3 the cellars, and what have you, underneath it and took protection and

4 waited for the bombardment to stop.

5 Q. You made reference to a demand by the JNA to the Croatians to

6 surrender Srdj. Do you know what the response was by the Croatians to

7 that demand?

8 A. I know they didn't surrender it. I do know on that occasion they

9 pulled back, but that wasn't an official surrendering. That was just

10 people deciding they weren't going to survive if they stayed there and

11 briefly pulling out.

12 Q. Are you aware of any injuries that may have resulted from the

13 shellings that you have depicted on your video during that time period?

14 Was there an increase at all in the hospital capacity?

15 A. There was an increase and we filmed on a number of occasions in

16 the hospital. The hospital was full and people were being treated in

17 areas other than the normal hospital beds. I was surprised that -- at the

18 height of the bombardment that there weren't more casualties. But the

19 civilian population appeared to be extremely diligent in taking to the

20 underground shelters and staying in them for long, long periods of time.

21 People were spending days in the underground shelters of the civilian

22 population.

23 Q. Did you indicate that you had spent time yourself in a shelter?

24 A. I did.

25 Q. Was it during a bombardment or was it just to experience the

Page 611

1 shelter itself?

2 A. Both.

3 Q. How many people, if you're able to estimate, were in that shelter

4 you found yourself in and where was that shelter?

5 A. The shelter I visited on at least two occasions was in the

6 Old Town. It was close to the southern gates of the Old Town, and it was

7 beneath the Old Town. You went down a number of old stone steps and into

8 a cellar-like area that felt about as safe as anything was going to be.

9 And on both occasions that I remember visiting it, there were people

10 there, almost entirely civilians. And on the occasion that was during the

11 bombardment, it was about as full as it could be. It's difficult to sort

12 of put a figure on how many people were there, but I got the feeling that

13 it was in three figures. I mean, it was more than 100. It -- I

14 don't -- it wasn't several hundred. It was more than a hundred.

15 Q. Were you present -- when did you actually leave Dubrovnik?

16 A. I left on the 21st of November.

17 Q. And where did you go from Dubrovnik?

18 A. Across the Adriatic to Italy.

19 Q. Did you return -- were you present in Dubrovnik for any activity

20 on the 6th of December?

21 A. No, I wasn't. I was back in the United Kingdom.

22 MS. SOMERS: If I may take a moment to consult. Thank you.

23 Q. During the time you were in Dubrovnik for, if perhaps any other

24 means afterward, during the time you were there following these attacks,

25 did you ever become aware of any either statement of concern, regret,

Page 612

1 apology, demand for investigation on the part of the JNA forces?

2 A. Not personally. Certainly during the time I was in Dubrovnik, I

3 didn't hear anything like that, although the circumstances were very much

4 a siege situation. We were not getting official sources of information.

5 There were no press conferences or ministers briefings that you could go

6 to to get information. An awful lot of what you found out was what you

7 actually saw was happening and what you were able to glean from travelling

8 around and talking to people. I was never aware of anybody apologising or

9 saying it had all been a mistake. Later when I returned to London, I

10 heard and saw various statements from Belgrade saying that the

11 circumstances would be looked into. But that was months later and not

12 anything I heard during any time that I was in the former Yugoslavia.

13 Q. You said you were not in Dubrovnik on the 6th of December, but

14 were you still involved in covering the conflict?

15 A. I was. It was the conflict in a wider scale, the conflict in

16 former Yugoslavia. It just happened to be one of the periods of time that

17 I was at home between assignments in the former Yugoslavia. I received a

18 phone call from some people in Dubrovnik telling me that they were coming

19 under fire. They were --

20 Q. On the 6th?

21 A. On the 6th. They were under the impression, probably mistaken,

22 but it was nice to hear that the report that we had managed to get out of

23 the worst of the fighting in November, the attack on Dubrovnik seemed to

24 stop or certainly be -- was brought down in scale when we managed to get

25 those images out of Dubrovnik, which was very difficult to get out. And

Page 613

1 they reached the outside world. There appeared to be some sort of

2 reaction to that --

3 Q. That was after November?

4 A. That was after November and these people were calling and saying:

5 "Help, we think you helped stop it last time, can you help again?" Which

6 was very flattering, but completely unrealistic, of course.

7 Q. So the shelling that you thought might come to an end in the

8 November incident in fact saw -- was -- reared its head again on the 6th

9 of December?

10 A. It did.

11 Q. Thank you very much.

12 MS. SOMERS: No further questions.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Somers.

14 Is it to be Mr. Rodic?

15 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm going to be doing the

16 cross-examination of this witness.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Rodic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Davies, my name is Goran Rodic and I

19 represent General Strugar. I'm going to be asking you a few questions on

20 behalf of the Defence. On examination-in-chief you said that -- you gave

21 us your CV. Is there anything you wish to add about yourself, and I mean

22 do you have any special experience more important than the one that you

23 mentioned during the examination-in-chief? So is there anything important

24 in your CV that you didn't mention?

25 A. I don't believe so. I've specialised in international news

Page 614

1 reporting for a number of years. And during those years, the world

2 happened to be in a state that conflict was a large part of what was

3 happening in the world. And that -- it turned into an area of speciality.

4 I think I answered that.

5 Q. More specifically, did you report during the Gulf War? This is a

6 well-known theatre of war. Were you there?

7 A. I was. I was in the first, what they now call Gulf War 1, the

8 first Gulf War. I was in Kuwait and in Iraq, and I was the -- what we

9 call the pool correspondent. I was selected from the various news

10 organisations in Britain to represent them all and be placed in the front

11 line with the British troops during that conflict.

12 Q. Was that upon the invitation of the British Ministry of Defence

13 that you reported for the Gulf War, or were you elected by the independent

14 pool of journalists who delegated you to report on behalf of all of them?

15 A. It was both. After negotiations between the greater body of all

16 of the British news organisations and the Ministry of Defence, the

17 Ministry of Defence agreed they would allow a very small number of

18 reporters into various positions, on condition those reporters gave their

19 work to everybody. There wasn't room to accommodate reporters from ITV,

20 BBC, and the various newspapers. So one person was to be selected to

21 represent and to report to all of the organisations. And once that had

22 been agreed, then the news organisations selected the person who would

23 fulfill that role. And there were a number of such people. One

24 correspondent, well-known correspondent, Martin Bell from the BBC had one

25 position with the British military, I had another in the front line with

Page 615

1 the army, another was on a warship, and another was with the RAF. But

2 these people were selected from within the news organisations to fill

3 roles that had been agreed between the news organisations and the Ministry

4 of Defence.

5 Q. In the selection of these journalists, did the Ministry of Defence

6 play a decisive role when it came to the selection of the journalists who

7 would report from the Gulf, and were these journalists official reporters

8 affiliated with the British troops in the Gulf?

9 A. The Ministry of Defence did not play a decisive role in selecting

10 the journalists. It laid down a few basic roles that covered fitness, but

11 nothing beyond that. The journalists who were with the troops, if I can

12 interpret what you mean by "affiliated," we lived with them. And as a

13 condition of being with them, we wore the same clothes that they did. So

14 in effect, we were in camouflage uniform. I mean, the simplest way of

15 describing it is we were official war correspondents.

16 Q. This is what I wanted to hear from you, because if you were

17 official correspondents, then you obviously acted together with the

18 British troops. And you yourself said you wore British camouflage

19 uniforms. Am I right in assuming that?

20 A. In acting together with the British troops, yes, we travelled with

21 them and, yes, we ate with them. We filmed what they were doing. We,

22 however, controlled what we filmed and what we said in our reports. And

23 at no time were the military able to dictate to us what we could -- what

24 we were -- what we were to film or what we were to say.

25 Q. Can you please tell us how did you send your reports.

Page 616

1 A. They were sent from a satellite dish that was behind the front

2 line. And we would send our pictures and my words, my commentary,

3 narration, back to colleagues of ours, television -- British television

4 colleagues of ours who were -- with this satellite dish who would put them

5 together and they would be fed back to London and distributed to all of

6 the news organisations.

7 Q. And the satellite equipment, was that military equipment or was it

8 your equipment, belonging to the journalists who worked in the area?

9 A. It was our equipment. It was our satellite dish manned by our own

10 engineers.

11 Q. Did the military have any influence on your report? Were your

12 reports censored by the military, particularly the parts of your reports

13 that referred to the troops and their activities during the war?

14 A. The military did have influence on our reports, yes. In the first

15 part they influenced them by -- we could -- our role was to report on what

16 the troops were doing, where they were and what they were doing, as

17 opposed to what was happening elsewhere. And therefore, the first

18 influence was we could only do what they were doing and film what they

19 were doing. We had as an organisation, and indeed the other news

20 organisations, had independent teams that doing other things and

21 independent teams on both sides of the front line and independent teams

22 travelling between them.

23 But our role was to film specifically with our own nation's forces

24 and what they were doing. So that was one influence. And yes, there was

25 an element of censorship. We were aware of it. It was a very simple form

Page 617

1 of censorship, so simple that in the most part you were -- you never fell

2 foul of it because you knew the rules. You didn't say how many soldiers

3 were with you. You could say what you were doing and the rough area where

4 you were and what you had seen and show the images that you had filmed.

5 You didn't say that there were 574 soldiers in the division. You didn't

6 say exactly how many of each -- you could film the weapons they were

7 using, but you didn't say exactly how many they had. You didn't say what

8 they were going to do next. Those were all for strategic reasons, not

9 because -- because with satellite television these days you wouldn't want

10 to be giving anybody any immediate idea of what your next step was. And

11 then there was another level of censorship which was that when you took

12 casualties, you didn't film their faces or identify them before their

13 families had been identified and all of the humane considerations that you

14 would have towards the families of victims. So that was the form of the

15 censorship. It didn't go beyond that and it didn't certainly cover any

16 dictating what you were going to say. It just restricted some of the

17 elements as I've detailed.

18 Q. Bearing in mind those limitations that you have just described,

19 can you please tell us whether anybody together with you or without you on

20 behalf of the military inspected your reports before they were dispatched

21 to wherever they went?

22 A. I believe that there was a level of inspection. That was where

23 our satellite dish was based, that basically checked that none of the

24 details that I've just outlined had been broken or ignored. And then the

25 report could be sent. It might be useful to say that this occasion that

Page 618

1 we're talking about now is the only occasion in my long career that I've

2 worked within the constrictions of working within the military. Life is a

3 lot simpler when you are an independent covering a conflict and able to

4 view life from both sides and do exactly as you please, as was the case in

5 Dubrovnik and has been the case in 99 per cent of the assignments that

6 I've had.

7 Q. Can you please be more precise and tell us who was it who checked

8 your reports?

9 A. I can, yes. There were -- there was a British army colonel who

10 was responsible for checking the reports before they were sent back out of

11 the, what they call the theatre, the conflict area.

12 Q. Did I understand you well? Did you say this was your first

13 experience of the kind with regard to the reporting from a theatre of war?

14 A. It was the first experience of being, if you like, on the inside.

15 Certainly in uniform being with a particular group of people and having to

16 abide by certain restrictions. It was the first time and pretty much the

17 last time that I experienced that.

18 Q. I must ask you, since you've mentioned it yourself, comparing the

19 experience from Dubrovnik with that experience, did you have an occasion

20 in Dubrovnik to report from both sides, or were you pretty much involved

21 only with one -- from one side, that is, the territory and the area from

22 which you had the best view of the other side? So what kind of reporting

23 was that from Dubrovnik?

24 A. In Dubrovnik, I was only able to report from the inside, if you

25 like, from the Croatian side. There are a number of reasons for that.

Page 619

1 The main is that I specifically set out to be on the inside of the siege.

2 And having done so, it was not possible to swap sides from time to time.

3 You were either in or out. My organisation, ITN, had on occasions teams

4 on the JNA side operating out of Belgrade. But during the time of this

5 particular assignment in Dubrovnik, I was on the inside of the situation

6 in Dubrovnik and unable to reach the outside, had I so desired. And on

7 occasions, I did so desire.

8 Q. During the period of your reporting from Dubrovnik on the other

9 side, so to say, on the side of the JNA, on the positions of the JNA, you

10 did not have another colleague working for the ITN at the same time?

11 A. I believe there was one occasion when a colleague was

12 able -- coming from Belgrade was able to reach Zarkovica, but it wasn't

13 for any longer than a brief visit. But certainly we carried one report

14 from there.

15 Q. Do you know of any attempts by your colleagues to get to the JNA

16 positions in order to report from those positions? Were there any such

17 attempts that you were aware of?

18 A. Yes. We had a team based in Belgrade that was constantly trying

19 to reach situations of conflict from the JNA side and on many occasions

20 were able to do so. They would do it through the appropriate ministry in

21 Belgrade. And I mentioned one visit to Dubrovnik that was arranged. But

22 there were many successful assignments that were organised to places like

23 Vukovar and elsewhere from the JNA side. It was a constant presence in

24 Belgrade and constantly applying for permissions to get close to where

25 things were happening, where it was impossible to reach merely as a

Page 620

1 civilian.

2 Q. Can you tell us why was there more or less interest on your behalf

3 to reach the positions of the JNA around Dubrovnik; that is, were your

4 colleagues from your TV station less interested in reaching those

5 positions around Dubrovnik?

6 A. I don't think they were less interested in reaching. It's hard to

7 answer for other people. I know that they were applying for permissions

8 to do so, and on occasion they were being granted permissions to go to

9 places of conflict. I don't know why a certain area was successfully

10 visited and why others were more difficult. That's problems experienced

11 by other people.

12 Q. Did you then have any real information coming from the other side;

13 for example, about their casualties, about the fallen soldiers of the JNA,

14 on the ceasefire that was broken by the Croatian side, about provocations

15 from the Croatian side towards the JNA side? Did you have any such

16 information at all?

17 A. Not really. The -- from the position that we were in -- and

18 again, I would try and ask that it be appreciated that during a time of

19 conflict, normal avenues of gaining information become quite difficult.

20 But most of what I saw and therefore what I reported had to be, of

21 necessity, an eyewitness account. And inasmuch as that it was based not

22 in general terms of the greater situation between Belgrade and Zagreb or

23 what was happening elsewhere in former Yugoslavia or even what was

24 happening outside, immediately outside Dubrovnik, by necessity, my report

25 was what I and my team saw and understood from our own experience.

Page 621

1 Q. Do you know approximately how big the Dubrovnik area is, how big

2 the Dubrovnik municipality is? How far does it extend towards the

3 Montenegrin border, how far does it extend to the Bosnia-Herzegovinian

4 border? Do you know how big that area is, if you know, approximately?

5 A. I wouldn't know that and I certainly wouldn't want to guess.

6 Q. Are you then at least aware of the fact that the area of the

7 municipality of Dubrovnik and the zone of activities during the year 1991

8 was elongated because of the configuration of the terrain and the shape of

9 the town and the municipality that extended along the coastline?

10 A. I think it's fair to say that I was aware of what was happening

11 within the area that I was able to travel in, and I wasn't aware of what

12 was happening elsewhere and therefore didn't offer any opinions or reports

13 of what was happening outside of my knowledge and what I was able to see.

14 Q. The area that we are discussing, which is Dubrovnik, and let me

15 ask you more specifically, are you familiar with Rijeka Dubrovacka, the

16 Gruz harbour, Babin Kuk on the one hand, and on the other hand towards the

17 Cilipi airport, are you familiar with that area? This is all the

18 territory of Dubrovnik municipality, and also this was all within the zone

19 of combat activities. So are you familiar with the entire area?

20 A. I'm not familiar with the entire area or I certainly wasn't

21 familiar with the entire area at the time. I knew the port area, as you

22 describe, and I knew the area, obviously, around the Old Town. And beyond

23 the Hotel Belvedere was impossible to travel. So I had and my team had no

24 information as to what was happening towards the airport area. There were

25 occasions later in my assignment when with the help of ceasefires we were

Page 622

1 able to travel to places like Mokosica and other areas that had fallen to

2 the JNA. But during the main part of the time I spent in Dubrovnik, we

3 were restricted to the areas that were still held by the Croatians.

4 Q. Did you ever go to Lapad?

5 A. Yes, I did go to Lapad.

6 Q. When and where exactly did you go?

7 A. I -- it's difficult to answer that. I went there one night when

8 there was a shelling and the shelling was still going on and buildings

9 were on fire. And my team filmed that and people evacuating their houses.

10 And then we withdrew.

11 Q. Did you make a report on that visit to Lapad? Did you report it

12 on your visit?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you ever broadcast that report?

15 A. Yes, as part of a larger report, but yes, it has been broadcast.

16 Q. With regard to your stay in Dubrovnik, would you be able to

17 pinpoint the period when you went to Lapad?

18 A. I believe it was in the early part of the stay. I couldn't give

19 you an exact date, but it was in the period between the 31st, when I

20 arrived, and the 4th or 5th of November.

21 Q. And you base this on what?

22 A. Well, I base what I'm telling you on my memory.

23 Q. Did you also base everything you told us earlier today on your

24 memory when you mentioned all the dates? Did you also base that on your

25 memory?

Page 623

1 A. No. Obviously partly my memory, but also I have had the

2 opportunity of reading some of the things that I wrote at the time,

3 knowing that I was coming here, and also viewing some of the reports that

4 I compiled at the time, again knowing I was coming here.

5 Q. Do you have those notes? Are they in your possession? Are these

6 just written reports or are we also talking about video footage of some

7 events? And another thing I would like to ask you: If the things that

8 you used to refresh your memory, are they something we did not see on the

9 video footage that we saw today?

10 A. The principle thing that refreshed my memory was the footage that

11 you saw today. There would have been some other footage that I've looked

12 at as well that you haven't seen today.

13 Q. And did the investigators of this Tribunal ever have an

14 opportunity to see your notes and this video footage, did you ever show

15 those to them? And is this film that they showed us today the result of a

16 selection process? Did they have an opportunity to select from all our

17 notes and all the video footage that you have?

18 A. I don't believe that there was a selection process, in that I

19 don't think other footage that I've mentioned was even available to them.

20 Certainly they haven't seen any notes. There was -- one of the other

21 films that would have refreshed my memory was the film of the journey into

22 Dubrovnik, and I don't know whether the investigators here would have had

23 access to that. But I think it was used as part of a previous trial, so

24 maybe they would have access to it.

25 Q. The report that you mentioned that covered your visit to Lapad and

Page 624

1 the shelling that took place that night, is it true that this report is

2 not part of the footage that we saw earlier today in this courtroom?

3 A. That is true.

4 Q. Can you please tell us how many such video reports do you still

5 have and also, if you have them, is it true that they go beyond of what we

6 saw today in the courtroom, so they do not cover the same things?

7 A. There were approximately, and this is not an exact number at all,

8 there were approximately five or six reports broadcast from Dubrovnik or

9 smuggled out of Dubrovnik prior to the main report, the large report, that

10 you have seen today. And I think there were probably three or four

11 reports after the report that you've seen today. I didn't leave Dubrovnik

12 until the 21st of November, and we were still sending reports up until the

13 time that we left. The report that you have seen today is the report that

14 covers the main attack, and the -- what turned out to be the four days of

15 heaviest fighting. There were other reports, both before it and after it.

16 Q. Am I right in saying that in addition to this big report that

17 covers the days with the heaviest shelling, am I right in thinking there

18 are six or seven other reports in addition to that comprehensive one?

19 A. Yes, you're right. Some of them in the early days showing

20 rationing and people with shortages of water and power and others that

21 show as the fighting became -- or the shelling started, the earlier

22 damage, building up to the one that you've seen today. The significance

23 of the one you've seen today is that at the time, first of all, that it

24 covers the period of the heaviest fighting; and secondly, that it covers a

25 period of time where we couldn't get our reports out of Dubrovnik, and

Page 625

1 therefore we used the material we had to in effect make a diary of what

2 turned out to be the four days of heaviest fighting. Up until then, we

3 had been able to get out stories on any given day that were a minute long,

4 a minute and a half long, much shorter than this one, just covering what

5 was happening on that particular day.

6 Q. Could you make the rest of your reports from Dubrovnik available

7 to the Defence? We would very much like to look at those reports.

8 A. I personally wouldn't be able to make them available, but it would

9 be a request from yourselves to my company, which I think is the course

10 that the Prosecution would have taken.

11 Q. I asked you earlier whether the Prosecution had received those

12 other reports and whether they had an opportunity to look at them.

13 A. They certainly haven't received them. And I don't think that they

14 have even been able to see them. I think that it's -- it might be quite

15 telling, the fact that even the version that we have seen today, the

16 quality isn't wonderful. And it doesn't look to me like something that a

17 broadcast company has made available. It almost looks like it's something

18 that's been recorded off air.

19 Q. In all these reports, including the one that we saw today, did you

20 include the coverage of the Croatian positions, the Croatian artillery,

21 the actions of the Croatian artillery? Is there anything else in addition

22 to your visit to Srdj, which we didn't see in the footage that we saw

23 earlier today?

24 A. There would have been some other things, illustrations of the

25 Croatians' weaponry, but not a great deal, as partly they didn't have a

Page 626

1 great deal of weaponry and partly the way that it was used made it almost

2 impossible to capture it in action. We on a number of occasions, and some

3 of them are in the footage you have seen, filmed Croatian mortars being

4 fired at JNA positions. We were never in a position to film the mortars

5 being fired, although on occasions I saw them, witnessed with my eyes

6 being moved between different firing positions. The nature of the defence

7 was that they had very, very few weapons, and what they did have were not

8 particularly powerful --

9 Q. I apologise. I apologise. Let me interrupt you for a moment. We

10 are going to come to that later on, but since -- from the qualifications

11 that were mentioned at the beginning of your examination-in-chief, I got

12 the impression that you are a very experienced journalist, that you

13 covered very specific areas, that you are an official war correspondent,

14 that you have been through various theatres of war. And correct me if I'm

15 mistaken, I would assume that for you, an action or a movement of one or

16 the other side would constitute the most important and the most

17 interesting thing. It would be very interesting for you to film such a

18 movement or such an action in order to show it in your report. Am I right

19 in assuming that?

20 A. You are right in assuming it and you would be right in assuming

21 that we attempted on many occasions to film both sides of even what was a

22 very one-sided conflict. We were very keen to show that -- and in fact,

23 if you remember from the words I used in my main report, I make the point

24 that it may have been one-sided, but both sides were involved in it and

25 firing at each other. We tried as best we could to illustrate what the

Page 627

1 Croatians were doing, and it was very difficult. They were constantly on

2 the move and very keen, as much for their own lives as anything else, not

3 to be witnessed and not to be in any one place for very long. Effectively

4 they had two or three mortars on the back of the lorry. They moved it as

5 quickly and quietly as they could to a position where they thought they

6 might be able to target the opposition guns. They fired their mortars and

7 then they moved on so as not to be hit. It made them very, very difficult

8 to film in action.

9 Q. When you were answering the questions put to you by my learned

10 friend, you mentioned having seen the movement of Croatian mortars along

11 the coast between the hotels Belvedere and Argentina. If you noticed

12 that, could you please specify the distance and also can you tell us

13 whether you filmed that movement, whether you filmed that action; if not,

14 why didn't you do that, why didn't you film that movement between those

15 two hotels?

16 A. Sure. Well, you're not quite right. You've mixed up two things.

17 Yes, I did see the movement with my eyes in the Dubrovnik area of Croatian

18 mortars. And yes, I know that mortars were used to fire at the JNA from

19 between the hotels Belvedere and Argentina, but they're not the same

20 event. I saw the mortars in the -- not in the Old Town, but in areas of

21 the New Town being moved, and I heard on two or three occasions, very

22 loudly, the mortars being fired from between those hotels, Belvedere and

23 Argentina. And on the occasions we heard them being fired, we took our

24 equipment and tried to get to a position where we could film them, not

25 easy as that's where you are in line of fire from the people that were on

Page 628

1 Zarkovica. But also they were moving on, so we didn't film them. But I

2 can quite truthfully say, yes, they had mortars and, yes, they fired them

3 from those areas. What I'm not able to give you is the images of them

4 because we weren't able to capture those.

5 Q. Did I understand you well that because of the tactic that they

6 employed, the crews of the Croatian mortars, it was very risky to film a

7 situation like that because of the way they moved and because of the way

8 they engaged in action?

9 A. Yes. You are right in understanding that. That wouldn't have

10 stopped us filming if --

11 Q. Let me interrupt you, please.

12 A. Of course.

13 Q. When we are talking about this kind of tactic employed by the

14 Croatian artillery, is it because of that tactic that you were in a

15 position to see a speedy response by the JNA artillery towards the place

16 from which the Croatian artillery had fired, and was that one of the risks

17 involved in filming such a situation?

18 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me, may I object, please.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Somers.

20 MS. SOMERS: I apologise from the interruption, however I know

21 that the Chamber has distinguished between leading questions on cross and

22 testifying by counsel, and I suggest what we just heard is testimony by

23 counsel.

24 JUDGE PARKER: I did not detect that at the moment. It seemed to

25 me that there was a very lengthy question which involved more than one

Page 629

1 proposition being put to the witness. I'm not sure yet how Mr. Davies

2 will be able to cope with it and react to it. If it had been broken up

3 into smaller elements, it would have been more manageable. So we'll see

4 how the witness copes.

5 THE WITNESS: It's not easy to see what you're getting at from

6 that. Perhaps it would be better if it was individual questions. If what

7 you're trying to get at is --


9 Q. [Interpretation] On several occasions, you mentioned the tactics

10 used by the crews of Croatian mortars. They would fire and then

11 immediately leave the place from which they had fired to go on to the next

12 place. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. Was this the most frequent manner in which you noticed that

15 Croatian mortars fired while you were in Dubrovnik?

16 A. Certainly that seemed to be the tactic that they were using most

17 of the time, yes. They never stayed in one place very long for obvious

18 reasons.

19 Q. Can you tell us what these obvious reasons were.

20 A. That the mortars that were being used were a very, very small

21 number of weapons. And they were in line of fire of a far superior number

22 of heavier weapons. And by opening fire themselves, they gave their

23 position away and invited a response.

24 Q. If I understand you correctly, you were able to see the JNA

25 response to the fire from Croatian mortars?

Page 630

1 A. I was able to see the JNA firing, both firing in response to

2 Croatian mortars and firing when apparently not in response to anything.

3 Q. But you certainly had occasion to observe the JNA firing in

4 response to previous fire by Croatian artillery, or rather, the mortar

5 crews?

6 A. No. I wouldn't characterise it like that. I certainly saw the

7 Croatian artillery or mortar crews firing, and I certainly saw them moving

8 to avoid a response. I couldn't put my hand on my heart and say that one

9 side had started today's firing or the other side had.

10 Q. But specifically when you say you saw them firing and then moving

11 on, not waiting for a response, were you able to observe that the JNA was

12 responding to that fire by the Croatian forces?

13 A. I was certainly able to observe that the firing that had already

14 started prior to -- prior to even me being aware of what or who was firing

15 was continuing and that it was continuing from the JNA positions.

16 Q. Is it correct then that you were often unable to discern who had

17 actually started the shooting, bearing in mind of course the size of the

18 entire area of Dubrovnik municipality, which I asked you about before, and

19 the disposition of the JNA forces and the Croatian forces in the area?

20 A. It's certainly correct to say that there were very few occasions

21 that anyone, barring a commander who had given an order, would be able to

22 stay in an area that large who had fired what shot first. What you could

23 clearly see was the scale of what happened afterwards.

24 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know if this is a

25 convenient moment?

Page 631

1 JUDGE PARKER: It is in matter of time. I thought you were into

2 an area of great interest, so I was delaying. But we'll break now,

3 Mr. Rodic. The break will be for 20 minutes.

4 --- Recess taken at 12.09 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 12.36 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Rodic.

7 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Davies, let's go back to the video footage that we've seen

9 today. You've told us that you used notes and video footage that you made

10 before coming here to this Tribunal in order to refresh your memory of the

11 events that took place in 1991, bearing in mind the lapse of time.

12 Bearing that in mind, I would like to know, since I didn't notice on the

13 footage that there was any date on the footage. And while you were

14 talking about the footage, you said that it was recorded over a period of

15 several days. I would be interested to know how could you tell when the

16 events took place, being aware of the fact that there are no markings on

17 the video footage that would place the events in certain periods of time.

18 A. Right. That's actually quite easy. Each part of the report that

19 you saw was actually put together in the evening of the day that it took

20 place. And as the period of time went on, the report grew. We didn't

21 know how long its ultimate length was going to be; it turned out to be

22 four days. As far as being sure at what time the original footage had

23 been filmed, although there is no marking on the image that you see, the

24 actual tape and the box that it goes into both have all the detail of

25 dates, times, and locations. And also, of course when you're putting

Page 632

1 together, it's very much in the forefront of your memory, having happened

2 in the hours before. The images you saw, the report you saw there was all

3 completed by the evening of the 12th of November. Nothing was added after

4 that. When the final edit was completed on the evening of the 12th of

5 November, many copies of it were made and attempts made to get them out of

6 Dubrovnik by various ways. The -- one of the ways obviously worked and it

7 was sent back to London and then passed on.

8 Q. You've just told us that everything was filmed before the 12th of

9 November and that everything was edited on the evening of the day and that

10 everything was filmed by the 12th of November. At the beginning it was

11 said that this film covered only a four-day period, the 9th, the 10th, the

12 11th, the 12th of November. Is that correct?

13 A. That's correct, yes.

14 Q. So how do you remember what was going on before these dates,

15 before the 9th of November?

16 A. I remember from my memory, and since 1991 I have viewed the

17 earlier reports that we sent on more than one occasion.

18 Q. If I understand you well, the only trace that you have should be

19 found on the box where this film is stored, the film that you recorded on

20 the 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th of November. Is that correct?

21 A. It's not the only place that you would find evidence of what

22 happened that day. The most important source would be the narration which

23 was actually written and put on to tape on the very day that it happened.

24 And there is no better source.

25 Q. In addition to this film, did you also hand over to the

Page 633

1 investigators anything else, the box or some notes that would serve to

2 identify the events depicted in this film? As we have already said, there

3 are no markings of the events on the images itself.

4 A. No, I did not hand over anything else that would have served to

5 identify the events.

6 Q. I have also noticed that the timing on the film, that is, the time

7 in the corner, does not start with a zero. Can you explain that. Is that

8 part of a whole, of a bigger film, or has this film been compiled from a

9 number of other films? What is it all about?

10 A. The film that you have seen is as it was originally compiled, but

11 the -- they seem to have clipped both the start and the end of it, nothing

12 more than that as far as I can see. It's just slightly sloppy, in that

13 it's not -- there are a few seconds missing at both ends.

14 Q. Do you know who did that, who is it that clipped the beginning and

15 the end of the film?

16 A. I don't know. They haven't missed anything significant, as far as

17 I can see, but no, I don't know.

18 Q. Can you tell us how did the OTP get hold of this video footage?

19 Was it you who handed it over or somebody else?

20 A. Somebody else.

21 Q. Would you be able to tell us who?

22 A. No. No.

23 Q. Wouldn't you be interested in finding out who is it who handed

24 over this film that you yourself, as you've told us, recorded while you

25 worked in Dubrovnik?

Page 634

1 A. Only a little. As I said earlier, this report, as it was the only

2 visual report of what was happening in Dubrovnik, was immediately shown

3 around the world after it was smuggled out of Dubrovnik. Copies of it

4 will exist in the libraries of almost every major news organisation. I

5 myself have seen it popping up in various places around the world since

6 it's something that happens when you have a very exclusive piece of news

7 footage. Suddenly it becomes world property and it crops up everywhere.

8 Q. You said that this footage is exclusive. You've seen it popping

9 up all over the place. Is this the version identical to the one that

10 we've seen today here, or maybe those versions that you've seen elsewhere

11 contain other things, particularly a bit more at the beginning, a bit more

12 at the end?

13 A. No. The versions that I've -- that I've seen are the same as the

14 version today. When I say a few seconds are missing, that's all it is.

15 Possibly the last image you saw has been cut short by two or three

16 seconds, and obviously the same has happened at the top. But we're not

17 talking about anything of any substance missing.

18 Q. After 12 years, how can you remember that it is only a couple

19 seconds missing at the beginning and a couple seconds at the end, and that

20 there is nothing significant happening during those couple of seconds

21 missing at both ends? How can you remember after such a long time?

22 A. I would know if there was something important missing or if it had

23 been in any way altered or messed about. I would know. It's an important

24 piece of my work and even after all these years, it's still a piece that I

25 remember very well, and I would know if somebody had been trying to alter

Page 635

1 it in any way.

2 Q. If I'm not mistaken, you yourself have noted those parts missing.

3 You've said that only a couple of seconds are missing, but that may be

4 even a couple of minutes. What I would like to state is that we are not

5 talking about the film that you made, that it has been altered. And also

6 I would like to say that you have used it to identify the events depicted

7 on the movie, and that you also used the data recorded on the box of the

8 film. Since you were not the one who handed over the movie, how could you

9 then recall the events on the movie, reading the data recorded on the box?

10 A. Well, for a start, I have also seen the original copies of this

11 film, which allows me to know what it was like in its original form, and

12 that that form is all but the few seconds that we are discussing, the form

13 that you have witnessed. I think that maybe we're making, or rather, with

14 respect, you're making a little bit too much about these seconds that are

15 missing. When I pick them out, I'm talking maybe a little bit as a

16 professional in the business when I see something that has a messy start,

17 even if it's only missing a second or two, it offends me. And the same at

18 the end, where it's clipped. This is my work; it's not been presented

19 very well, so I don't like to see it like that so maybe I pick that out.

20 You're missing nothing more than what you have already started to see and

21 then there's a second or two that has been clipped. It is nothing

22 sinister.

23 Q. I appreciate your view of a professional who authored this work,

24 and I understand if you're offended if somebody tampers with your work and

25 if somebody makes a decision of what is going to be clipped from the

Page 636

1 movie. Would you then be able to tell us who it is who did that, why this

2 was done? What was the reason to do it? It is your professionalism that

3 would naturally make you curious to find out who it was who decided to do

4 that.

5 A. Again, I would only say that so little is lost that we're

6 effectively just talking about presentation. And it looks a bit messy to

7 enter something a second late or two late. And it looks messy to finish

8 it a second late or two late. It's the sort of thing that happens quite

9 frequently when a news bulletin is running and somebody has what we call

10 finger trouble and they bring up the report while the newscaster is still

11 saying here's the report. And you miss the first second or maybe they

12 come out of it one second early. It's just something that happens and it

13 really isn't anything serious in my view.

14 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the technicians to

15 show us just the beginning of the video footage, the Exhibit Number 19

16 that is.

17 [Videotape played]

18 [Please refer to Exhibit P19.l for video transcript]

19 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. You can stop it here.

20 Thank you.

21 Q. At the beginning of the video footage, 0 should be hours, 35

22 should be minutes, and 32 should be seconds. According to this, it seems

23 that we are in the 35th minute of the film, rather than the first couple

24 of seconds missing.

25 A. It's -- I can't tell you for sure. I can offer an opinion. The

Page 637

1 opinion would be that the number which is imposed on the top of the screen

2 has absolutely nothing to do with the report that you're seeing. It

3 certainly wouldn't have been on there when we put the piece together. It

4 wasn't there when we put it together, and it wouldn't have been there when

5 it was broadcast. It appears to me that that number has come from

6 wherever the -- this material was being transferred on to the format, on

7 to the tape, that it is now on, and that those numbers relate to what was

8 happening on to -- on that particular tape that they were being recorded

9 on. If I'm not making myself clear, what I'm trying to say is something

10 along the lines of if you had a tape which had, say, 34 minutes worth of

11 material on it already or 35 minutes of material on it already, and the

12 next thing you wanted to put on to this tape way my report and you first

13 left a little gap between the last thing and this starting, maybe that's

14 why it's got 35 minutes up there. I can see no other explanation for it.

15 It has nothing whatsoever -- that number that appears there has nothing

16 whatsoever to do with this report.

17 Q. Can you help me with the abbreviation CDL, what does that stand

18 for?

19 A. Again, I have no idea. This has come from some later stage long

20 after this material was put together by myself and my team and broadcast.

21 It's not something I recognise.

22 Q. Does that mean that you don't know what could be found on this

23 tape in the first 35 minutes that are missing?

24 A. If this number refers to, and it quite possibly does, that -- the

25 time, then I have no idea what was on that particular tape. It could be a

Page 638

1 tape that was in a studio anywhere and is 34 minutes worth of material.

2 But I certainly wouldn't know the identity of it before this.

3 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the technicians to

4 fast forward this footage to about the middle. The total length of the

5 video footage is 11 minutes. Can we have it around the fifth or the sixth

6 minute, please.

7 JUDGE PARKER: While that's happening, Mr. Rodic, can I just make

8 clear as the Chamber understands it, this material is not in the hands of

9 the technicians of the Tribunal; it's in the hands of the Prosecution over

10 there on their machine. And I'm sure that we will be assisted in due

11 course by Ms. Somers with the provenance of this tape, which at the moment

12 seems something of a mystery.

13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe this would actually

14 make my cross-examination shorter if we knew the source -- the provenance

15 of this video footage. Maybe that would help me not waste everybody's

16 precious time.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Perhaps that's a good idea, Mr. Rodic.

18 Are you in a position to assist us, Ms. Somers.

19 MS. SOMERS: If we can have a few moments to see if we can call up

20 the necessary material. If not, I may have to ask for a five-minute

21 recess.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 MS. SOMERS: Accessing to get information out of this particular

24 computer system to get anything back. Would it be possible to return to

25 this point. If we are unable to do this from here, I will ask my

Page 639

1 colleague to try to go upstairs and see.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Rodic, would it be possible for you to move on

3 to some other areas with a view to this information being provided before

4 you finish your cross-examination. And if there's then anything that

5 requires further exploration by you, you could do it at that point.

6 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I'm ready to move

7 on and address another issue.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

9 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Before your arrival in Dubrovnik, Mr. Davies, did you visit any

11 other place in Croatia?

12 A. Yes. Shortly prior to my -- the visit to Dubrovnik, I had been in

13 Zagreb and other places outside, Vukovar, Vinkovci, Osijek, a number of

14 other places, but areas where there were problems.

15 Q. You said that you departed for Dubrovnik on 28 or 29 October. Can

16 you be more specific on the period of time that you spent in Croatia all

17 together when you mentioned Zagreb and other places. How much time prior

18 to your departure to Dubrovnik did you spend in Croatia?

19 A. Three weeks. Three weeks, and it was a three-week period that

20 ended I think on the 26th of October. Certainly I was only back in London

21 for the very brief time before I set off for Dubrovnik.

22 Q. What was your reporting mission during that three-week period in

23 Croatia?

24 A. It was to see and to report on as much of the problems that were

25 happening there as I was able to, and that involved areas where there was

Page 640

1 fighting, areas where there were disputes over JNA army barracks that were

2 still in areas of Croatia like Zagreb where there were disputes over the

3 weaponry that was in them and sieges taking place, that sort of thing.

4 Q. And this fighting that you covered, who were the sides involved in

5 it?

6 A. The sides involved in it were Croatian military and the JNA.

7 Q. Did you have an opportunity to report and to witness the blockades

8 of JNA barracks, and if you did, where did you see that?

9 A. I did witness that, and I witnessed it for the most part

10 in -- near to Zagreb.

11 Q. Were you familiar with the situation in the former Yugoslavia once

12 you arrived to report from Croatia in 1991? Were you familiar with the

13 political situation with the social circumstances with what had been going

14 on in that area prior to your arrival?

15 A. I was aware in the broadest of terms. I knew about the breakaway

16 of Croatia and other areas. And I knew of the conflicts that were

17 resulting from that. I did not have an in-depth knowledge of the history

18 of the region. It was, for me, the early stages of what was to be a very

19 long assignment or series of assignments in the former Yugoslavia. It was

20 back in the early days.

21 Q. Was the JNA a legal armed force of the former Yugoslavia at that

22 time?

23 A. It was, yes.

24 Q. Bearing your reporting experience, did you find such a situation

25 unusual -- did you find it unusual to see that the barracks of the legal

Page 641

1 armed force were blocked?

2 A. It was unusual, yes. But then again, we had already at that stage

3 witnessed in Eastern Europe a whole series of unusual events with the

4 forces that had been -- the legal forces being challenged, and in some

5 cases overthrown.

6 Q. Can you tell us something more about your departure for Dubrovnik.

7 How did you gain an opportunity to travel to Dubrovnik? I believe that at

8 the time you had had information that Dubrovnik was blocked. Did you have

9 somebody who assisted you with going there?

10 A. We didn't have any assistance in the planning of going to

11 Dubrovnik. We set out hoping that it would be possible. I've set out on

12 many assignments over the years where it's turned out to be impossible to

13 reach somewhere that's under siege. We set out hoping we would be able to

14 get through, and as we were travelling we learned that there was to be an

15 attempt, a very high-profile attempt to break the blockade from a flotilla

16 of boats that would be carrying artists, musicians, various artists, and

17 indeed, some politicians, who were going to make a very public show of

18 trying to get through the blockade in order to highlight the growing

19 problems inside Dubrovnik.

20 We heard about this attempt and we decided we would try to join

21 it, if nothing else, even if it didn't succeed, it would give us our first

22 story of the assignment. We travelled down the coast on a ferry from

23 Rijeka. As we were travelling, we heard that this flotilla was actually

24 setting out of Split, the port of Split. We made radio contact via the

25 craft we were travelling on. And they agreed to delay their departure by

Page 642

1 a very short time in order to take a foreign film crew on board, and this

2 is what happened. They stopped just outside the port of Split, and we

3 were transferred from our craft to join the flotilla, which ultimately

4 took us into Dubrovnik.

5 Q. Were you accredited? Did you have your credentials to report from

6 Dubrovnik? How could you enter?

7 A. No. They seemed to accept the fact that we were obviously, by the

8 equipment we were carrying, a film crew. And we had our own press passes.

9 But no, we had no Croatian accreditation, or indeed, any accreditation

10 from the former Yugoslavia.

11 Q. Can you tell us please, when you boarded the Slavija ferry, how

12 long did your journey on this ferry last before you reached the port of

13 Dubrovnik?

14 A. The best part of two days the journey lasted. It included one

15 night of travelling.

16 Q. So you had an opportunity to meet the passengers on the ferry.

17 You could also compile some sort of a report on that journey and the

18 passengers that you had joined?

19 A. Yes, indeed. We interviewed some of the passengers. There were

20 some people who, although not particularly well-known to us, we were told

21 were very famous singers and artists in their own country. And we talked

22 to them about why they were doing it, why they were taking the risk, what

23 they hoped to achieve. And a good deal of the time was also spent in

24 negotiating with the --

25 Q. I apologise. I'll come back to that later. Do you remember any

Page 643

1 of the more prominent names or their positions, or do you remember what

2 they represented in the cultural or artistic life of their country? Or

3 maybe you remember some of the politicians who were on board?

4 A. With regard to the artists, I don't remember their names. They

5 were not people that I had known before. I do know that -- from the

6 welcome they received in Dubrovnik, that they were extremely well-known in

7 former Yugoslavia. I remember there was a well-known singer, a well-known

8 painter; I don't remember their names. I do remember the name of the

9 best-known politician who was on the flotilla, it was Stipe Mesic. He was

10 on the Slavija ferry, the same ferry we were travelling on.

11 Q. Do you know what post he held as a politician at that time, what

12 his position was, his office?

13 A. No. No, I don't know what his post was at the time. I know he

14 was a very senior politician, the most senior person on the flotilla.

15 Q. Can you tell me briefly in your estimation how many approximately

16 were on board in the whole flotilla, if you have any information about

17 that.

18 A. I could only give you an opinion, 100, 200. It's very difficult

19 to say. There were many, many small boats. And having said that, many of

20 them only had two or three people on. There were fishing boats, there

21 were even smaller boats. It would be very difficult to give an accurate

22 number. Certainly the ferry Slavija was very full and we were sleeping on

23 the deck. But that's -- by saying 100 to 200, that's as close as I can

24 get, I think.

25 Q. Do you allow for the possibility of there being more people in

Page 644

1 that flotilla?

2 A. I would doubt it, but it is possible.

3 Q. Can you tell us more about the kind of passengers. I'm interested

4 in the ratio of men and women, for example.

5 A. I'm afraid, if I'm being honest, I must admit I really can't

6 remember the breakup of men and women. There were both and I seemed to

7 sense there were more men than women, but I can't be any more specific

8 than that.

9 Q. If there were about 200 passengers, were you told they were all

10 artists?

11 A. Well, for the start when I say -- when we use the figure 200, and

12 it's a very loose figure, it doesn't refer solely to the ferry, the

13 Slavija. We weren't told who everyone was. We knew who some of them

14 were. I wouldn't know who everyone was.

15 Q. Thank you. I interrupted you a little while ago. I assume that

16 the vessel was checked on its entry into Dubrovnik. Can you tell us

17 who did that and why?

18 A. Yes, I can certainly tell you that it happened and sailors people

19 from what I would describe as the gunboats that had stopped the ferry came

20 on board and searched the boat -- this was after some time. The ferry was

21 stopped and there was a period of negotiation. The closest that we came

22 to being briefed on what these negotiations were all about was very

23 unofficial conversation. And that basically told us that, first of all,

24 we had been stopped and they wanted us to turn back; and then that there

25 was discussion going on about would we be allowed to continue, and if so

Page 645

1 under what conditions; and then ultimately we were searched. Sailors came

2 on board, looked in the hold in particular. And eventually we were

3 allowed to travel on.

4 Q. In brief, do you know who conducted the negotiations?

5 A. I don't know who negotiated -- who conducted the negotiations, but

6 I do know that certainly Stipe Mesic was in the control room of the

7 Slavija at the time. We took pictures of him talking to somebody.

8 Whether that was the negotiations or something that was going on alongside

9 it, I don't know. But he was certainly there, and we took pictures of him

10 at the time. I don't know who he was negotiating -- who he or anybody

11 else that was negotiating was talking to. I mean, it was the military,

12 and the military that was going to decide whether or not we could go on.

13 But we didn't -- I didn't know who the person was.

14 Q. On your arrival in Dubrovnik you said you were put up in the hotel

15 Argentina. I would like to know about your movements through the town,

16 about how you gathered information, were you aware of the information

17 centre in Dubrovnik? Did you have contacts with them or someone else as

18 regards your movement around Dubrovnik, and areas or events of interest

19 for your work? Did you have any assistance in that direction and from

20 whom?

21 A. I was aware of the information centre. And on occasions one would

22 seek information or whatever from them, but they were not really very much

23 use in the job we were trying to do. I mean, we didn't want a party line

24 or propaganda or anything that we didn't -- couldn't necessarily believe.

25 In the situation what we were in, what we really wanted to do was to

Page 646

1 travel around and see for ourselves what was happening and film it. In a

2 situation like that, where you're only seeing one side of a conflict, the

3 only meaningful reporting is your own eyewitness account, and that's what

4 we were trying to achieve. In trying to do that, we took help from

5 anybody that was able to give us information as to this is where there's a

6 big problem or that's where there's a big problem. And eventually we

7 managed to obtain vehicles of our own. But in the early stages, the early

8 days, we were also begging and borrowing vehicles to allow us to travel to

9 the different areas of Dubrovnik to film.

10 Q. As this was a war-affected area and you've just explained the

11 problems in moving about, did you have any escort or any help by any of

12 the locals or officials in Dubrovnik?

13 A. At times, yes; and at times, no.

14 Q. Can you tell us who that was.

15 A. At times, particularly in the early days before we got a good

16 understanding of the layout and where everything was, there was a

17 part-time policeman who helped us whenever we needed to get to any areas

18 where we were likely to run into officialdom saying, "No, you can't come

19 here".

20 Q. Was this policeman in uniform and was he carrying weapons?

21 A. No. When he was with us, he wasn't in uniform or carrying

22 weapons. But at other times of the day, like almost all of the males of

23 that age, he did have a role in the defence of Dubrovnik.

24 Q. How old was he?

25 A. I would say in his 30s.

Page 647

1 Q. You are referring to one person who was with you on more than one

2 occasion. Is that correct?

3 A. I am, yes. He was probably with us on 3 or 4 occasions. He was

4 with us on one occasion where there was fighting at night-time and it

5 required local knowledge to get to where it was happening. He also guided

6 us the first time that we went up to search after those first couple of

7 days, partly because he was doing other things and partly because we were

8 finding our own way around and eventually got our own vehicles. We didn't

9 see much of him.

10 Q. And how did you come to meet this policeman? Who did you apply

11 to?

12 A. We didn't apply. We met him in the harbour on our arrival. He

13 helped us transport some of our equipment to the Argentina hotel and asked

14 if we needed him at any stage to -- as we were newly arrived, to give him

15 a call and he would offer his advice and help where he could.

16 Q. When you said that you also used him to go to a place where there

17 was shelling at night, can you explain why? What was his role? Did he

18 enable you to get to a place where you wouldn't be able to get to

19 otherwise? Was it because of the positions of the Croatian army or for

20 some other reason?

21 A. In many cases, it was even simpler than that. We didn't know our

22 way around at all, and certainly not at a time when there was fighting and

23 shelling. And he had a vehicle and he was prepared to show us where this

24 was happening and also to help us to get there.

25 Q. Can you tell me in your view what his motive was, why did he do

Page 648

1 this?

2 A. I think his motive, principally, was that he was very pleased that

3 a foreign television crew was present in Dubrovnik so the outside world

4 would see what was happening. And he wanted to give us what assistance he

5 could in making sure we could do our job.

6 Q. Tell me very briefly, during your stay there were you ever given

7 any kind of assistance by the Croatian army just -- well, in the same way

8 that you received assistance from this policeman who you mentioned?

9 A. No, no. I mean, we received assistance inasmuch as they allowed

10 us to film them sometimes when we went to try and talk to people, to

11 interview people. But we were never taken by them to anything or what we

12 would call a facility to see them in action or carrying out some sort of

13 operation. There was no cooperation like that. In fact, we would have

14 been looking for some form of organisation along those lines to try and

15 get to certain places. And we didn't find that there was that degree of

16 organisation. It seemed to be on a much, much less sophisticated level,

17 which left us pretty much wandering around as best we could finding things

18 for ourselves and coping for ourselves. Very unlike what I would later

19 come across in former Yugoslavia where the operation in handling the

20 press, and particularly television crews, became very, very sophisticated

21 on all sides. This wasn't like that, but it was early days.

22 Q. When you mentioned members of the Croatian army who allowed you to

23 film them as you explained in a limited way, how did you come into contact

24 with them and who did you come into contact with? Was it an ordinary

25 private or a higher-ranking officer? Who did you apply to for such

Page 649

1 permission?

2 A. Generally, during the course of our travels on a particular day

3 trying to see what was happening, we would come across something or

4 somebody. And we would either, if the situation was appropriate, simply

5 film them without asking permission. For instance, if there was gunfire

6 going on or you were seeing some sort of action or if you saw people who

7 were just going about their business, then perhaps you would come say,

8 "Can we have a talk to you and see what you're doing." And usually we

9 would be taken by whoever it was you made contact with first to whoever

10 was the local commander and invariably it was not anybody particularly

11 high scale. And usually they talked to you and said, "Yes, you can do

12 this, this, or this." Occasionally, they said, "No, you can't do that."

13 But generally they seemed very cooperative because I think they thought

14 that we, in filming the situation, would be beneficial to them, as they

15 felt they were the victims of the situation.

16 Q. Specifically during your stay, did you make -- did you film any

17 footage at all by any action of a Croatian soldier?

18 A. Well, we filmed action by Croatian soldiers. I don't think that I

19 can remember filming a Croatian soldier actually pulling a trigger. I

20 filmed on a number of occasions Croatian soldiers at their guns, with

21 their guns pointed at the JNA positions. I filmed Croatian soldiers

22 moving a mortar to another location. And I, on three or four occasions,

23 filmed the results of what Croatian soldiers were doing, volleys of

24 explosions that were the impacts of mortars that we couldn't see firing.

25 I don't think I can remember actually filming a Croatian soldier actually

Page 650

1 firing, certainly not firing a mortar or even firing a machine-gun.

2 That's not to say they didn't do it. They obviously did do it and told us

3 they had done it, but it didn't happen in front of our cameras.

4 Q. Can you tell us then why you don't have such footage and yet you

5 were in a position to film such things.

6 A. Well, I think there are a number of answers to that. The first

7 one would be that it didn't happen with anything like the frequency of the

8 fire power that was coming into Dubrovnik. So that would be one answer.

9 Another answer would be that at times of artillery pieces and mortars

10 being used, that they were well hidden. I guess those would be the two

11 main reasons.

12 Q. But you say that you had footage of action by Croatian forces?

13 A. Yes. That's probably slightly lost in the translation, because

14 action can -- doesn't necessarily restrict itself to meaning shooting

15 things. But if it's clearer, perhaps I can repeat that I don't think -- I

16 can't recall actually filming Croatian soldiers firing their weapons,

17 though I do know from seeing the result of it that they did. And I do

18 know from talking to them that at times they did. But I don't think I

19 ever filmed it.

20 Q. Did you ever film the results of their actions? If you didn't

21 manage to film the moment of opening fire, were you able to film the

22 results of their artillery fire?

23 A. Yes. And the images that we filmed were used in a number of

24 reports, but the most obvious one would be in the footage that you've seen

25 where they score a hit on the Zarkovica position.

Page 651

1 Q. Can you tell me who allowed you to reach the positions of the

2 Croatian army on Srdj and how you got there?

3 A. The first time we went there, because we didn't know our way

4 around and didn't know the footpaths that led up the mountain. The

5 policeman who we had met guided us to the footpath, and he showed us the

6 way. After that, we knew the way and we would go by ourselves. Perhaps I

7 should say, to help explain, that we had with us a translator, so that

8 helped in operating without having an official guide. This was a

9 translator who had actually travelled into Dubrovnik with us.

10 Q. Is this realistic for you to go on foot to a fortress, which is a

11 military facility, from which shots are fired and which was evidently a

12 target for the JNA in the way that you describe? Amidst war operations,

13 in a war theatre, can you simply walk to the most important position?

14 A. There are times when you can, and you have to judge it. We waited

15 until quite a long period when it wasn't coming under fire, and obviously

16 we would have changed our minds and retreated very quickly if the fighting

17 had started again. But these are just judgements that you make. You

18 could ask a very similar question to your question there by saying is it

19 realistic for you to go to Dubrovnik, a place that's under siege, where

20 there is a much larger force outside, is it realistic? It's what people

21 in our profession do from time to time.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Is this a convenient time, Mr. Rodic, or are you at

23 a critical point?

24 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we can break now. I have

25 many more questions, but I'm not at a critical point right now. Thank

Page 652

1 you.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Rodic.

3 Mr. Davies, I regret that we must ask you to come back on Thursday

4 when we resume at 9.00 in the morning. I hope you would be able to

5 accommodate that.

6 Could I mention one matter, Ms. Somers, there has now been filed

7 the Defence submissions concerning the critical issue of the admissibility

8 of evidence relating to matters before the 6th of December. I wonder when

9 we might expect the Prosecution response?

10 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, we were informed that the submissions

11 were filed. We have not yet received them and we will endeavour to get

12 them in within the normal response time for a response to said motion.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Could I ask you to eliminate the word "endeavour"

14 from that, "we will get them in."

15 MS. SOMERS: We certainly will get them in.

16 JUDGE PARKER: It's a much more comfortable reaction.

17 MS. SOMERS: I simply have not received them yet. I know that the

18 Defence indicated yesterday that there were three submissions that had not

19 made their way up to the OTP as of yet, so we are waiting.

20 JUDGE PARKER: You may be able to make some good use of tomorrow

21 then, to that end.

22 MS. SOMERS: Yes. We have a number of Chamber-driven issues we're

23 responding to. May I ask just one moment of indulgence on the issue of

24 witness order. We have a number of matters concerning witness

25 availability of scheduled witnesses. I don't -- I believe Mr. Davies did

Page 653

1 not anticipate, of course, staying beyond today and we did not

2 realise -- none of us was aware, I believe I speak for the Defence as

3 well, that the Chamber would not be able to sit tomorrow. So tomorrow's

4 witness will be Thursday and Friday. That particular witness has a very

5 particular time constraint. Ambassador Alajbeg will address an issue.

6 She, like all of us, has scheduling concerns, but we've tried to

7 accommodate hers. Monday's witness, Mr. Brolund, also has very narrow

8 scheduling time, so we anticipated Monday. With the need -- Mr. Samardzic

9 was the next witness, actually -- excuse me, going after

10 Ambassador Alajbeg. We are going to have to do some shuffling around at

11 this point and ask that everyone understand that is was not anything we

12 could anticipate. Will the Chamber want to have Mr. Davies come back

13 immediately Thursday or -- which would then pose a problem for Ambassador

14 Alajbeg?

15 JUDGE PARKER: I take your concern is whether it would be possible

16 to interrupt the evidence of Mr. Davies at this point to have him return

17 at a time that is convenient to him and the flow of the hearing?

18 MS. SOMERS: That is exactly it, if it doesn't cause any major

19 problem.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Rodic, would that trouble you if Mr. Davies was

21 delayed in his cross-examination now for a period rather than continuing

22 on Thursday morning?

23 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] In principle, Your Honour, I can agree

24 to this. There will be a loss of continuity, but in any case we can

25 accommodate the requests of the Prosecution. According to the schedule I

Page 654

1 have received, however, the next witness to follow Mr. Davies was not to

2 be the ambassador, but Mr. Samardzic. So that this again upsets our

3 preparations. If we are given a list of witnesses, we don't want this to

4 become the rule because we have to prepare for a certain witness and then

5 we don't want it to become the rule for the order to be changed.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Rodic, for your indication that you

7 could accommodate the concern of Ms. Somers and, I understand, Mr. Davies

8 about timetabling.

9 MS. SOMERS: On the matter, Your Honour --

10 JUDGE PARKER: On the matter of the ambassador?

11 MS. SOMERS: Yes, and the issue there was Mr. Samardzic was

12 scheduled for today, tomorrow and that clearly has gone by the wayside for

13 some reasons beyond our control and in order to make sure that we can try

14 to get the ambassador completed, we would need Thursday and Friday for her

15 testimony, which would put Mr. Samardzic again out of order. There's very

16 little I can do about that scheduling.

17 JUDGE PARKER: I only suggest that whenever this sort of exigency

18 arises that you might, at the very first opportunity, inform the Defence

19 so that they have every available chance of preparing for the change,

20 rather than finding out somewhat late in the piece that they're to deal

21 with a different witness.

22 MS. SOMERS: Certainly, Your Honour. And along those lines, the

23 exhibit -- the video exhibit was submitted to the Defence on the 10th of

24 April, 2002, and this is the first time there has been a question raised

25 on that. We will attempt to have the complete answer. I have bits of

Page 655

1 information, but I'm afraid that two-year delay has caused us some

2 problems.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will now adjourn until Thursday

4 morning. Mr. Davies need not attend on Thursday morning and we hope we

5 can find a convenient time.

6 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Rodic, I'm sorry.

8 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise for interrupting you,

9 Your Honour, but during the cross-examination we were talking about the

10 film footage. Can we get a response from the OTP in connection with the

11 provenance of the footage.

12 JUDGE PARKER: That was the subject of the comment just made by

13 Ms. Somers. She pointed out that it was some long time ago that that was

14 made available. Because of that, they are not immediately in a position

15 to give the answer. And as soon as that answer is known to them, they

16 will make it available to you I think is the position. And that will be

17 quite obviously, I'd expect, before Mr. Davies returns to complete his

18 evidence.

19 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour. What my

20 learned friend has said is correct, but I have to say that the

21 clarification of these issues arose only today during the

22 cross-examination. But we will wait, thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you then. We will adjourn until Thursday at

24 9.00.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

Page 656

1 at 1.52 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

2 the 15th day of January, 2004,

3 at 9.00 a.m.