Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1054

1 Thursday, 22 January 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Somers, we were left in the position that you

6 were expressing a preference for one witness to be dealt with first this

7 afternoon. Am I right?

8 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. I had to think for a moment.

9 I'm sorry. Yes. Mr. Grubisic's examination, if the Chamber is so minded,

10 it would be very helpful, so he can return to give mass. And we also

11 submitted, so the Chamber is aware, another issue with a witness having a

12 problem for deadlines next week, and I've transmitted it through the

13 appropriate channels. Thank you.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic.

15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, I would

16 like to address you for only two minutes, in connection with something

17 that is becoming a cause of concern. The Defence understands that the

18 testimony of witnesses before this Tribunal is an honour and a privilege

19 for each witness. Unfortunately, we are now in a situation where the

20 witnesses are at the disposal of the Trial Chamber and all of us here in

21 the courtroom, at those times when they have nothing more important to do.

22 However, the most important job of a witness who has agreed to testify

23 before this Tribunal is to testify. Practically every day a witness is

24 expressing his or her preferences as to what days they can come and

25 testify, or for how long they can stay. One witness can testify on

Page 1055

1 Friday, another on Monday or Thursday or Friday, in accordance with their

2 wishes.

3 The witness Paul Davies started his testimony and had to interrupt

4 because Mrs. Alajbeg had only two days. The same situation is recurring

5 now. The same witness will testify now, and he will be cross-examined for

6 an hour or two. He will be followed by Samardzic but tomorrow Djelo Jusic

7 will begin he has to leave on Monday. It is simply impossible to work

8 this day. Do these people want to testify or not? If they do, they have

9 to set aside sufficient time to testify before this Chamber.

10 We can understand exceptional situations, but out of eight

11 witnesses, at least five had had special witnesses [as interpreted] as to

12 when they can testify or not. They have to testify when the Trial Chamber

13 so orders and not when they have nothing better to do. We ask the Chamber

14 to take this into account because we think it will be very difficult to

15 proceed in this manner.

16 Look at the witness Pringle, for example, a crucial witness.

17 Yesterday we were told that he can testify for only two days, on the 29th

18 and the 30th, and he is witnessing as to command and control, which is a

19 key area. What are we to do? He's here for only two days. If we don't

20 complete our examination, then the entire schedule would be in disarray,

21 we will be under pressure to speed up. He will -- or he will have to come

22 back, and more costs will be incurred.

23 The Prosecutor has to plan her time. This is the fourth time we

24 have been given a revised schedule. We know that there are objective

25 problems. We accept that and we are trying to be cooperative, but this

Page 1056

1 kind of organisation will simply lead us into an impossible situation. I

2 have three pieces of paper before me telling when which witness will be

3 able to testify. It's up to the Chamber to determine that. The primary

4 obligation of these witnesses should be the Tribunal, and only then should

5 it be mass or something else. And I ask that the Prosecutor's office have

6 their attention drawn to this.

7 We are prepared to be flexible, but this cannot become the rule.

8 Thank you, Your Honour, and I apologise for taking so much time.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Somers.

10 MS. SOMERS: I think the only thing with which I can concur from

11 this last exchange is that it is indeed for most people truly an honour

12 and a privilege to come. Most of the persons involved are professionals,

13 many of them are professionals, like ourselves. Many have obligations

14 which they have set aside in order to come. I'm sure I don't have to

15 remind the Chamber that for us even to start, we had to accommodate the

16 schedule of General Strugar as opposed to the schedule of the Chamber,

17 which had directed that he be returned to the Tribunal, and accordingly, I

18 think these inconveniences are relatively, if not minor, then at least

19 respectful of the obligation to be before the Tribunal. We inform the

20 Chamber, as the Chamber requested. We are not able to ask people to set

21 aside their lives completely. We cannot compel people to come. And if

22 there is a way that we can accommodate, within the Chamber's, of course,

23 understanding and sound discretion, then it is our job to make sure, as

24 the Chamber directed us to do, to let you know.

25 In the main, on relatively short notice, because of the back and

Page 1057

1 forth with scheduling, and because of the serious delays work by the

2 Defence in just appearing for trial upon order, we have had to

3 say -- change dates a number of times. Things such as the illness of the

4 witness are unforeseeable, and I don't think that there's any need to make

5 an excuse for this type of request. If the Chamber accepts as valid and

6 understands, which I'm sure it does, given the nature of this Tribunal as

7 opposed to a domestic court, where there is more control and travel is not

8 necessarily involved, then I think that the record would speak for itself.

9 We have always tried, through the very good offices of the Victims

10 and Witness Unit, and a special assignment of an investigative staff

11 member, to line up witnesses so that it is orderly. When issues come, if,

12 for example, a cross-examination, rightly or wrongly, takes more time than

13 is anticipated, or an issue arises, we have no option except to ask for an

14 interruption. It is not optimal, but that's what happens. And the

15 Chamber's own schedule oftentimes requires that we have to adjust things.

16 I do not see this as a harmful pattern. It is certainly not

17 something that is devised by any witness with any malice. But because we

18 are asking people to come when they don't have to, and because they want

19 to come, we attempt to accommodate, and I'm sure when the Defence starts

20 its case and similar requests are made, we'll have to revisit it as well,

21 and I think the Prosecution has always expressed its willingness,

22 irrespective of whatever delays are incurred by the Defence, to rise to

23 the occasion. Thank you very much.

24 JUDGE PARKER: It appears to the Chamber that there is a good deal

25 of merit in what both counsel have put. We well understand that, from the

Page 1058

1 point of view of the Defence counsel, the ability to know where to focus

2 their preparation for cross-examination and the ability to conduct in one

3 continuous session a cross-examination is highly desirable and would be

4 something that they would normally expect should occur.

5 We also fully appreciate, as Ms. Somers has put, that the conduct

6 of this hearing to date has suffered some significant interruptions which

7 have put out of the planned order a great deal to do with the times when

8 witnesses had planned to be here and has affected their availability.

9 We would also add that, with one or two of the witnesses, the

10 length of time spent in cross-examination has also affected the programme.

11 It appears that it is not necessary at the moment to make any

12 further observations about these matters. It is our hope and expectation

13 that we will very shortly be able to get back into a substantially normal

14 pattern, when a witness will come, give the evidence the witness seeks to

15 give, will be cross-examined, and will go, and we will then move to the

16 next witness in an orderly manner. At the moment, we are disrupted in

17 that order, and that will -- while it will require added flexibility on

18 the part of all counsel, and on the part of the Chamber, it is necessary

19 and essential at the present time to put up with that.

20 The steps that have been taken and the measures that are in place

21 appear to us to be ones that will give to Defence counsel reasonable

22 notice in the circumstances of the witnesses they can expect to be called

23 in the next day or two or three days, and against the background of their

24 normal thorough preparation for the case, that should enable them to cope

25 with the exigencies of cross-examination as they arise.

Page 1059












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Page 1060

1 While we fully sympathise, Mr. Petrovic, with your concern, I

2 think in this case we just must let the present circumstances work their

3 way out, so that hopefully we can get back to a normal pattern. I see

4 nothing at the moment about what is proposed which would warrant any

5 special action on the part of the Chamber at the present time. But

6 certainly, we are anxious, as you are, that the matters should get back to

7 a more normal pattern.

8 Well, if the witness, then, could be called. Thank you.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. If I could just remind you of the

11 affirmation that you took at the commencement of your evidence, which is

12 still operative.

13 Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrovic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Grubisic. I'm Vladimir Petrovic,

19 an attorney from Belgrade, counsel for General Strugar, and I will put

20 some questions to you in connection with your testimony of yesterday

21 before this Chamber.

22 A. I understand. Thank you. Please go ahead.

23 Q. Yesterday you told us that at the time we were discussing, in the

24 autumn of 1991, you were living in Celestina Medovica Street number 4; is

25 that correct?

Page 1061

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Before we continue, let me just ask you that, in view of the fact

3 that you understand me without waiting for an interpretation, please leave

4 a pause between my question and your answer, so that others who do not

5 understand our language can hear the interpretation and follow what we are

6 saying. So please make a brief pause after my question so that the

7 interpretation can finish.

8 Celestina Medovica Street, in what part of Dubrovnik is that?

9 A. When you enter from the Pile gate, it's the first street on the

10 left, as you go towards the town from the Pile gate.

11 Q. Is it the street that has residential buildings on one side and

12 the Franciscan monastery on the other?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell me how wide that street is?

15 A. Two metres, not more.

16 Q. It's one of those narrow Dubrovnik streets?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. In which building were you living in 1991? And maybe you still

19 reside there today. What kind of building is it?

20 A. It's the first building after Prijeko Street, the first entrance

21 on the right and that's where my cellar is where we took shelter. The

22 second door is the entrance to my house, or rather, it's not my house; it

23 belongs to the church. But two priests live there. The first one was on

24 the first floor, and the ground floor, and I myself lived on the second

25 floor. I was the second priest. I had about 35 square metres of

Page 1062

1 residential space.

2 Q. Is this building often referred to as the priest's house in

3 Dubrovnik? Is that what it's called?

4 A. There are quite a few church-owned buildings in Dubrovnik, which

5 were confiscated after World War II, but a few houses were left for

6 priests to live in. However -- or rather, the street in Celestina

7 Medovica Street number 4, that's one of those buildings.

8 Q. What is there at number 6 and number 8 in the same street?

9 A. Right next door to my house is the side entrance to the convent of

10 the Zigurate nuns, but they actually used the Zigurate entrance. And then

11 there's a postman's house, Mico Djenovic [phoen]. Further on, at the next

12 house number, which is what you asked me, no one lives there. It belongs

13 to someone who used to live in Belgrade, but he has relatives who

14 sometimes use that house. And then the Danicic family live at the next

15 house number, and then there's another street, called Ispod Mincete.

16 Q. Thank you. Looking towards the Minceta tower, you described to us

17 the right-hand side of the street, Celestina Medovica Street. Can you

18 briefly now describe the left-hand side of this street, from Prijeko

19 upwards.

20 A. From Prijeko upwards, from the start of the street to the top,

21 it's all the Franciscan monastery. First there's the church, then the old

22 pharmacy, then the monastery. Opposite my door is an auxiliary entrance

23 to the monastery. Then there's the monastery garden. So all the way up

24 to the Minceta tower, this whole complex belongs to the Franciscan

25 monastery and no one lives there except the Franciscans.

Page 1063

1 Q. Is there a garden there? Is there a fence?

2 A. Yes. At the top there's a playing field, or rather, a playground,

3 where children play, under the Minceta tower, and then in the garden there

4 is a building that was once used for making candles, but it burnt down. I

5 don't remember exactly when, but before the war, certainly before the war.

6 This war did not have any influence on that. And in the garden there are

7 oranges, lemons, fruit trees, and when there were more Franciscans there,

8 they also grew vegetables there, but they don't any more.

9 Q. How high is the fence, or the wall of this garden?

10 A. I'm not quite sure, but it's quite tall. I never visited that

11 playground, but I can see from my window that this fence is quite tall, so

12 that when the children are playing in the playground, their ball wouldn't

13 constantly go into the monastery garden.

14 Q. In that area, the closest walls to where you live are the ones

15 between the Pile gate and the Minceta tower at the corner?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. How tall are the city walls between the Pile gate and the Minceta

18 tower?

19 A. I can't tell you exactly, but if we start from the Stradun to my

20 house, there are about 30 steps. If I were to calculate how tall each

21 step was, it would be about 20 centimetres, I think. There are also 30 or

22 35 steps inside the house leading to my apartment, and when I look out

23 from my window, I'm at the level of the top of the wall leading to the

24 Minceta tower. But then the wall rises as it goes towards the Minceta

25 tower. I don't know how tall the Minceta tower is. Well, I wouldn't be

Page 1064

1 able to respond with any precision, but this is about it.

2 Q. So from your window, you can see the wall?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. We shall go back to this issue again later.

5 Yesterday you mentioned Priest Milan Majic, and you also said that

6 before the 1st of October, you received an invitation from him. Did I

7 understand properly your answer?

8 A. I do apologise. In order for me not to be confused, you are

9 referring to the 1st of October?

10 Q. Yes. I apologise. Given the differences between our two

11 languages, I will try to pose questions in a way that you will be able to

12 understand. Therefore, was it before the 1st of October, 1991 he got in

13 touch with you? Is that correct?

14 A. We were best of friends. I lost him. He died of cancer two years

15 ago. We used to talk on the phone almost every day. He called me a few

16 days before that and said that the shelling of Zupa had already started,

17 and also firing. He asked me, and I also advised him to come over to me

18 to spend a few days at my place. He did come before the 1st of October to

19 my place, and he was the one who stayed longest in my house.

20 Q. Did Priest Majic tell you what the fighting was about, who was

21 fighting who?

22 A. There was no fighting at all, because there was no one to fight.

23 That was simply shelling. Shells were falling on Brgat and Zupa. And one

24 could hear from above Ivanica light machine-guns and other small arms

25 being fired.

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Page 1066

1 Q. All of that was happening in late September, if I understand you

2 correctly.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you perhaps ask Priest Majic were Croatian policemen or

5 soldiers in Brgat, the defenders, or you didn't ask him that at all?

6 A. I did not ask him, but probably if there were any some

7 self-organised local residents, but for sure there was no police or army

8 there.

9 Q. Did you go there?

10 A. I went there very often.

11 Q. Did you go there in September?

12 A. I told you -- forgive me. I hear you and then I start talking

13 again.

14 Q. I made the same mistake, so I hope the Chamber will have

15 understanding for both of us. So were you there in September?

16 A. Yes, I was. I was there several times.

17 Q. Did you go there while the shelling was in progress?

18 A. Once, I can't remember exactly when, but I believe that it was

19 either in late September or early October, most probably already after

20 Dubrovnik had been -- the transmitter on the Srdj had been demolished. We

21 didn't have any electrical power. We went up there. We were rather

22 naive, because the church was hit by four or five shells. We brought with

23 us some tarpaulin in order to cover the church. When we arrived at his

24 house, and when we saw that a shell had fallen --

25 Q. Mr. Grubisic --

Page 1067

1 A. Let me finish.

2 Q. Please, you're answering my questions. The Prosecutor asked what

3 they believe is important, and I am going to ask you the questions that I

4 believe are of importance for my defence.

5 So my question is whether, at the time that you were there, you

6 did not see any defenders there.

7 A. No, not a single defender.

8 Q. Did you see any JNA soldiers perhaps there?

9 A. No, I didn't. But above the hill, the Postranje, there was fire

10 coming from some machine-guns. Therefore, we had to rush and escape, due

11 to which he wasn't able to bring any basic belongings that he would need

12 for survival.

13 Q. When did your niece come to stay with you? Was that before the

14 1st of October?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How many days before the 1st of October? Two or three, four days?

17 A. I don't remember exactly, but for sure she did come at that time.

18 Q. And she told you that she had left Mlini because she couldn't

19 sleep because of the shelling?

20 A. There was constant firing coming from the hills, and also there

21 was shelling and, and due to that, they had to leave their homes. But

22 they reckoned and they thought that they could go back quickly and that it

23 was something that was only temporary.

24 Q. Very well. If I understood you properly yesterday, those families

25 stayed with you for approximately one month, so they spent the month of

Page 1068

1 October with you.

2 A. The women and the children, once the blockade was broken through

3 and the Libertas convoy and other ships started taking women and children

4 away, it was then when my niece and Mioc's wife and children set off for

5 Split, whereas we, the men, and the Serb woman Slavka Tomovic and her

6 husband, remained in my house. We probably stayed there for about one

7 month.

8 Q. Yesterday you mentioned several people. You just mentioned Serbs

9 by their nationality, not others. What do you think that is important?

10 Why didn't you say that Marija Lemo was Croat? Why do you always

11 emphasise that the Tomovic's were the Serbs? Why was that important?

12 Human beings are human beings. They fled their places of residence,

13 regardless of the fact whether they were Serbs or Croats.

14 A. I believe that it was necessary to underlie that specifically in

15 order to demonstrate that there was no interethnic conflict, especially

16 not an interreligious conflict, and that I, in my capacity of a priest, by

17 abiding by the command "Love thy Neighbour," and that one should be

18 obliged to help other people, and therefore provide shelter not only for

19 their relatives but also for the Croats and Serbs as well. That is why I

20 thought it was necessary to stress that particularly.

21 Q. Why didn't the fathers and the husbands leave with their families

22 towards Split? Why did they stay behind in your flat? Why they didn't

23 join their wives and children?

24 A. First of all, our intention was not to abandon Dubrovnik and that

25 no one should leave Dubrovnik, especially not males and those who were fit

Page 1069

1 for defence, should it become necessary. But a city without inhabitants,

2 without people who live there, is a dead town. For that reason, the men

3 stayed behind in the town.

4 Q. Therefore, the men did not leave in order to defend the city?

5 A. No, that's not what I said. I'm sorry. They did not have any

6 means with which to defend the city. Maybe I didn't put it properly.

7 Perhaps they just wanted to render moral support for as many people to

8 remain in the city as possible. Our bishop also appealed to people to

9 stay behind. But I believe that it is better if we spare the women and

10 the children the hell and to send them away once it became possible.

11 Q. Did Vinko Mioc, if he wanted, was he able to join his wife Angela

12 and leave?

13 A. I think he could have left, but, as far as I know - or at least

14 those were the rumours. I wasn't in Gruz at the time - they had to go to

15 Zelenika. Every ship had to go to Zelenika for inspection. And it was

16 dangerous for men who were fit of being captured and taken away to an

17 undisclosed location. Probably there was some fear, and that is why he

18 didn't leave, but he could have left.

19 Q. So not a single adult male was forbidden to leave the city; is

20 that what you are saying in this testimony?

21 A. As far as I know, there was a recommendation for people to stay in

22 the city, not to leave it. But I cannot answer your question whether

23 anyone was involved in the defence or not.

24 Q. Do you know any person who had left?

25 A. Yes. Some people managed to squeeze out, and they left.

Page 1070

1 Q. Who was controlling who was boarding the ships, either in Gruz or

2 the Old Town harbour?

3 A. I don't know. There was no boarding the ship in the Old Town,

4 only in Gruz, but I never went there.

5 Q. You say that some people managed to squeeze out or smuggle

6 themselves out. Who were they hiding from so that they had to resort to

7 this method?

8 A. You asked me whether anyone had left. I told you: Probably yes.

9 I cannot tell you who they were hiding from.

10 Q. What do you mean, they smuggled themselves out? With reference to

11 whom?

12 A. I didn't understand your question.

13 Q. Let me try to clarify. Did they sneak out vis-a-vis the Croatian

14 authority or vis-a-vis the Yugoslav army?

15 A. I believe both, because they were afraid and they wished to avoid

16 being captured.

17 Q. Tell me: Although there was no electric power, you received news

18 over the radio. You had a transistor or something similar that you were

19 able to listen to and hear what was happening in Dubrovnik and in Croatia

20 and further afield?

21 A. Yes, that's right. We had a transistor radio.

22 Q. Did you listen to the news on that transistor radio? I presume

23 you did, given the situation that you were in.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you hear on the news that general mobilisation was called in

Page 1071












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Page 1072

1 the Republic of Croatia?

2 A. People were called up here and there. We heard it on the news, to

3 go and defend our homeland, which was unjustifiably attacked.

4 Q. Were the people from Dubrovnik called up?

5 A. We were in a sort of a concentration camp, surrounded from all

6 sides, without food, without anything. So who was really going to call up

7 anyone to go and defend something with their bare hands? So my answer is

8 no.

9 Q. You also said yesterday that two Tomovics from this Serbian

10 family, as you say, went and joined the HVO. Do you know what the HVO is?

11 A. That's an abbreviation for the Croatian Defence Council.

12 Q. Is that a military formation?

13 A. I'm not a military person, so please don't ask me this kind of

14 questions.

15 Q. Was that a citizens' association? Was that a voluntary company, a

16 club? What?

17 A. From the very name, you can see that it says it's the Croatian

18 Defence Council, and I beg of you not to insist upon this issue any more,

19 because I can only speak about what I have been through personally and

20 what I have seen. As for other questions, you may as well ask them, but I

21 don't believe that it is my duty to answer that sort of question.

22 Q. Mr. Grubisic, in your statement, in response to the questions of

23 my learned colleague Weiner you mentioned a military formation, the HVO.

24 The Rules of this Tribunal, which you may not know, but I will tell you,

25 allow me to ask the question about what you mentioned yesterday in your

Page 1073

1 statement.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner.

3 MR. WEINER: Yes. I don't believe it's counsel's duty or

4 obligation to be discussing the Rules of this Tribunal with the witness.

5 If he has -- if he feels that there is an issue, I think he should notify

6 the Bench and let the Bench advise the witness as to the Rules. Further,

7 I believe the witness is indicating he does not know anything about the

8 HVO, so it would also be asked and answered.

9 JUDGE PARKER: If I could indicate, Don Grubisic, that it is

10 appropriate for you to answer questions that are put to you, if you do

11 know the answer. If you do not know the answer, just say that and counsel

12 will move on to the next question.

13 If you would continue, Mr. Petrovic.

14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Was the HVO an armed military organisation?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Do you know what the Croatian army is?

18 A. I guess the army that defends its country, just like any other

19 army.

20 Q. Do you know what is the National Guard Corps?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you know what MUP is?

23 A. I think that's the police, the Ministry of the Interior. That's

24 what it's supposed to mean.

25 Q. Do you know what HOS is, HOS?

Page 1074

1 A. No, I don't.

2 Q. Do you know what is the 116th Brigade of the Croatian Army?

3 A. I have no idea.

4 Q. Do you know who Nojko Marinovic is?

5 A. I've heard of him. I don't know him personally, but I did hear

6 that name.

7 Q. Can you tell us what you had heard about him?

8 A. That he was in the JNA -- had been in the JNA, and that later he

9 joined the Croatian Army. He was a sort of a commander, but I can't tell

10 you exactly.

11 Q. Do you perhaps know that Mr. Marinovic was in Dubrovnik?

12 A. Yes, I heard that.

13 Q. Do you perhaps know that Mr. Marinovic was the commander of the

14 defence of Dubrovnik?

15 A. There was some stories about that that I heard on the radio.

16 Q. Do you know what Marinovic commanded in Dubrovnik, given your

17 statement that in Dubrovnik you had never seen any soldiers or other armed

18 people except for the policemen armed with small arms?

19 MR. WEINER: I object. I object. May I speak, Your Honour?

20 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry, Mr. Weiner. I didn't have you in my

21 sight.

22 MR. WEINER: I'm short, but I didn't think I was that short.

23 JUDGE PARKER: No. I had a very focussed look in another

24 direction. Height was not an issue.

25 MR. WEINER: The statement here is a direct misquotation of the

Page 1075

1 evidence. Our evidence of this witness has been that there has been no

2 troops, no artillery, no military presence in the Old Town of Dubrovnik.

3 The Old Town of Dubrovnik, as the testimony has come through from other

4 witnesses, is part of a larger municipality of Dubrovnik. And he has used

5 a confusing question to try and indicate that there were troops, and that

6 yesterday he indicated that there were no troops in the Old Town of

7 Dubrovnik, and now he's saying that he is aware that there was a military

8 commander of the municipality of Dubrovnik. And I think his questions

9 should be far more specific, because we're dealing with two different

10 areas. I have no objection to him asking questions in that area, but

11 those are not fair questions and they're confusing questions and I feel

12 trying to confuse the panel.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic, I think there was a distinction in

14 the evidence between the greater or larger municipality of Dubrovnik and

15 the Old Town of Dubrovnik, and you may keep that in mind as you frame your

16 questions. Thank you.

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understood

18 yesterday's testimony very well. My question was more general. Because

19 this witness moved about outside the boundaries of the Old Town. So it's

20 quite clear that he can answer my question and that it's fair.

21 JUDGE PARKER: I think Mr. Grubisic made clear that you were

22 talking not just about the Old Town but the larger municipality when you

23 question about Dubrovnik it will be easier for the witness then to deal

24 with your question and answer it for you.

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the questions are

Page 1076

1 already limited to the area that the witness visited, that is, the Old

2 Town, Gruz, Lapad, so that anything I ask, if it's not clear to the

3 witness, let me clarify it now. When I say "Dubrovnik," I'm referring to

4 Gruz, Lapad, Babin Kuk, the town, not the municipality, but the town.

5 When I'm asking about the Old Town, I will of course specify this, but I

6 will probably not go into that at all, because my learned friend asked

7 about that yesterday.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic. I think that helps me,

9 and I believe it may help the witness as well. But I see Mr. Weiner on

10 his feet.

11 MR. WEINER: I was just going to add that we've already been

12 discussing Brgat, which is far outside the Old Town. It's another

13 village, or a community, a distance away.

14 JUDGE PARKER: I think you could move on with your questions,

15 Mr. Petrovic. You've made clear what you're intending by them, and I'm

16 sure the witness has understood what you've said.

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I ask you

18 to bear with me for a moment so I can recall where I stopped.

19 Q. The last question I put to you concerned Nojko Marinovic. You

20 told me that you knew that he was a commander or something like that. Can

21 you tell me what he was commander of, to avoid any misunderstanding? So

22 I'm not asking you whether he was a commander in the Old Town or outside

23 the Old Town, but what was your understanding of the role of

24 Mr. Marinovic? What do you know about it? At the time, of course, in

25 October, November, and December 1991.

Page 1077












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Page 1078

1 A. I feel that it is my duty to answer your questions, and as

2 Mr. Weiner said, yesterday I talked only about what I had experienced in

3 the Old Town. I didn't go about much further afield, for reasons of

4 security, safety. But as for your question, Mr. Nojko Marinovic was later

5 on -- well, later on, some sort of defence was set up, as far as the town

6 was concerned. Because, as far as I know, on Srdj there were 10, 15, or

7 20 soldiers who were defending the town and who, on the 6th of December,

8 held their positions heroically, resisting the attacks.

9 Q. What were they armed with? Do you know?

10 A. I have no idea. I apologise for rushing in with my reply, without

11 waiting for the interpretation. I don't know.

12 Q. Were they members of the Croatian Army?

13 A. I don't know. Probably they were, the defenders. They were not

14 an army; they were defenders.

15 Q. Can you please clarify what "defenders" are and what the

16 difference is between defenders and the Croatian Army.

17 A. Well, the word "defender" shows that they are defending themselves

18 from something or someone.

19 Q. What, then, is the Croatian Army?

20 A. I am not a military expert.

21 Q. With all due respect, this is not a military question; it's a

22 question of general education, to which anyone can reply.

23 A. Well, every nation, if you insist, has an army, and so Croatia

24 also should have its army.

25 Q. Did Croatia have its own army in December 1991 in Dubrovnik?

Page 1079

1 A. No.

2 Q. How do you know this, when you say that you did not leave the Old

3 Town or that you did so very rarely?

4 A. There were no soldiers about. People would have known about this.

5 Dubrovnik is a small town. Everybody knows what other people are doing.

6 They know what they're having for dinner. You wouldn't be able to conceal

7 an army there.

8 Q. That's just what I'm -- why I'm putting you this question, because

9 many of your fellow citizens say they were members of the Croatian Army

10 and that they defended the town of Dubrovnik heroically. How is it

11 possible that none of your parishioners or neighbours or friends ever said

12 to you that there were Croatian soldiers in the town?

13 A. I assert categorically that there were no Croatian soldiers in the

14 Old Town. As I said, as far as I know, there were some 20 or so defenders

15 on Srdj.

16 Q. Yesterday you said that on the 1st of October the power and water

17 were cut off. Is this correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. After that, you told us that on the 5th of October you went to the

20 Lero Hotel. Where did you go? What route did you take? What route did

21 you take on your way back, and when did the attack begin?

22 A. Don Milan and I set out because one of his parishioners was

23 seriously ill. We went from the Old Town towards the old hospital,

24 through Boninovo towards Gospino Polje, and so we arrived at the Lero

25 hotel. When he had performed the duty for which he had gone there, the

Page 1080

1 shooting began. On our way back through Gospino Polje, some hundred

2 metres away from Hotel Lero, a man gave us a lift in his car, and we

3 didn't go by way of Boninovo but we went towards the post office, on

4 Ilijina Glavica. We got out of the car there, and the shooting was very

5 intense by then. We took a street that we call Busovina. I don't know if

6 that's its official name, but we called it that. We took that street to

7 Hotel Imperial.

8 Then we went behind the Atlas building, at Pile, and so reached

9 the entrance to the Old Town. We saw that the gate was closed. And as I

10 described yesterday, we came in through a small side door, because in the

11 big gate there is a small door. And we fled to my cellar.

12 When the shelling stopped, we saw that the Rupe museum building

13 had been hit.

14 Q. Please limit yourself to answering my question, to avoid wasting

15 time.

16 Are there any trees around the post office at Glavica? Is there a

17 park, a wood?

18 A. In front of the post office, there are some pine trees or

19 cypresses, in front of the post office, toward the road. And between the

20 pavement and the road, there are flowers, flower beds.

21 Q. How long did you stay in the cellar?

22 A. Until the shelling stopped. But truth to tell, I'm not sure. It

23 was some 13 or 14 years ago, so that's a question I find very difficult to

24 answer, because I don't know.

25 Q. Well, can you help me whether it was an hour, two, three, 15

Page 1081

1 minutes, the whole day? Approximately. I'm not asking for a precise

2 time.

3 A. Well, it was not all day. It started in the afternoon. But I

4 can't tell you how long we were there. Please don't insist, because I

5 really don't know.

6 Q. What time of day was it when the shelling started?

7 A. In the afternoon, about 3.00 or 4.00 p.m.

8 Q. You remember when the shelling started, but you don't remember how

9 long you spent in the cellar?

10 A. I know because we went to the Lero Hotel after lunch. We stayed

11 there some 15 or 20 minutes and then went back.

12 Q. How long did the journey back take?

13 A. Well, some 20 minutes or so. We walked fast, and as I said, we

14 were given a lift for part of the way. It was less than a kilometre.

15 There was a car that happened to be passing by that gave us a lift.

16 Q. So it was broad daylight when the shelling started?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And at twilight you went out of the cellar, you were already at

19 home or performing your other duties?

20 A. For as long as the shelling went on, we stayed in the cellar. As

21 soon as the shelling stopped, I would go to my flat, because the entrance

22 to the cellar and the entrance to the house are only a few metres apart.

23 Q. Did you spend that night in the cellar or did you go home?

24 A. We didn't spend any nights in the cellar. Throughout the war, we

25 always slept -- well, not in our beds, but in my apartment, at least.

Page 1082

1 Q. Well, whenever the attack -- an attack started, would you rush

2 down to the cellar?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Just a moment,

5 please.

6 [Defence counsel confer]

7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. On that day, did you go down to the cellar again or was it just on

9 that one occasion, that one time when you came back from the Lero Hotel

10 that you went down to the cellar?

11 A. I think it was only once, because the shelling, at least as far as

12 the Old Town goes, lasted a short time.

13 Q. And the cellar is in your building, in the building you live in?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I assume it's dark in the cellar.

16 A. Quite dark, yes.

17 Q. I assume you can't see out from the cellar. Maybe it has no

18 windows at all.

19 A. Not a window. It has a small opening for air, for ventilation,

20 but we always kept the door open.

21 Q. Open to where?

22 A. The door of the cellar.

23 Q. When you're sitting in the cellar and looking out the door, what

24 do you see?

25 A. All you see is the wall of the Franciscan monastery.

Page 1083












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Page 1084

1 Q. You told me that at Porporela, you had seen some armed men. Is

2 that correct?

3 A. No, that's not what I said. I said that I had seen two uniformed

4 policemen with automatic rifles.

5 Q. Tell me: Can you distinguish an automatic rifle and a

6 semi-automatic rifle, for instance?

7 A. I had been in the military a long time ago. At the time, those

8 automatic rifles were very old, made in Kragujevac. So an automatic, or a

9 semi-automatic gun, is something that we used to call Parabela. So it

10 resembled that. But I really cannot tell you what is the distinction

11 between the two.

12 Q. Why were they armed with those rifles there at Porporela? Was it

13 not enough for them to have just pistols, which is the normal practice

14 with the police?

15 A. Well, I think I explained that yesterday. This is the entry point

16 to the town, and I believe this was more for giving moral support or for

17 any concrete defence purposes or anything like that.

18 Q. Yesterday you said that they were there in order to prevent anyone

19 docking there in the town.

20 A. Well, what could two policemen prevent, if a destroyer arrived, or

21 any other big ship? I just told you that I think it was just a moral

22 support. They would have fled the place much quicker than you can think.

23 Q. They would have fled probably because of the inequality between

24 them and the possible attacker?

25 A. Probably.

Page 1085

1 Q. So tell me how those dozen men did not flee Srdj, as they were

2 also on an equal -- unequal position as compared to the other side.

3 MR. WEINER: I'd object, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

5 MR. WEINER: Number one, he's asking a military question. The

6 witness has just been speculating. Now he's asking a military question.

7 He's never been up on Srdj; there's no testimony about him being up on

8 Srdj or being involved in the military. This is outside the scope of his

9 testimony. And I feel you're asking an opinion for a military expert.

10 It's not for him.

11 JUDGE PARKER: I think, Mr. Petrovic, no need for you to respond.

12 I'd have thought it very obvious the answer of this witness will be: I

13 don't know. I can't help. And that will be the end of this question.

14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am satisfied if I

15 get that kind of answer. He could just say, simply: I don't know.

16 Whether the brave defenders of Srdj would have left their position. So I

17 would be happy with his saying: I don't know.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They did not abandon their position.

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation].

20 Q. Why?

21 A. Because they were brave.

22 Q. Were they well armed or were they just brave?

23 A. I don't know what weapons they had.

24 Q. So how do you know that they were brave, if you don't know

25 anything about what was happening up there?

Page 1086

1 A. We spent that day in our cellars, and I said that it was hell.

2 The fact is that they remained up there on Srdj and they did not run away.

3 Q. Tell me: On the 5th of October, was an air raid siren

4 sounded -- or alert sounded in the town?

5 A. There were frequent alerts in the town, and I suppose that was the

6 case on that day too. However, no attack was expected then. Whenever an

7 attack was expected, the alarm was sounded. And I cannot tell you exactly

8 whether it was sounded on that day or whether how long it lasted. I can

9 tell you that on St. Nicholas, which is the 6th of December, the air raid

10 alert was on the whole day.

11 Q. Please concentrate on my question only. You said: "When an

12 attack was expected or anticipated". How could you know when to

13 anticipate or expect an attack?

14 A. I am not able to answer that question.

15 Q. So why did you say just now: However, this attack was not

16 expected? Were other situations when attacks were expected?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. While you were in the cellar, were you able to know what was going

19 on in the Old Town of Dubrovnik?

20 A. Only if we listened to the radio. But as far as the Old Town is

21 concerned, we could only know if we went out there to see for ourselves.

22 Q. That means the whole time that you were in the cellars, you had no

23 idea and you had no way of knowing what was going on in the town?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You couldn't possibly know who was coming into the Old Town or who

Page 1087

1 was coming out of the Old Town?

2 A. I think I already answered this question. How could I have known

3 who was coming in or going out if I was in a cellar?

4 Q. So how can you know, then, that there was not a single bullet

5 fired in the Old Town, if you had spent days or hours or end in the

6 cellar? How can you know that?

7 A. First of all, why would anyone shoot inside the Old Town? There

8 was no army there, and the civilians were hiding in cellars because they

9 were afraid. Therefore, I can be 100 per cent sure that there was no

10 shooting. And even if -- or we would have heard if there were any shots

11 fired nearby.

12 Q. So from your cellar, you could have judged whether anyone was

13 firing inside the town or at the town or beside the Old Town?

14 A. Most probably, yes.

15 Q. Tell me: Since you aren't in any way a military expert, how were

16 you able to discern whether anyone was opening fire at several hundred

17 metres away from you? Based on what could you make such a conclusion?

18 A. There were about ten people in the cellar at times, and it's quite

19 normal that whenever we heard a shell, although I have some hearing

20 problems, to tell you the truth, but there were other people, and we could

21 have simply concluded. But I adamantly state that there was no shooting

22 and no soldiers in the Old Town.

23 Q. Except that you couldn't know what was going on while you were in

24 the shelter.

25 A. While we were in the shelters, and we had to go there because the

Page 1088

1 town was being shelled, then how can anyone from the Old Town shoot? That

2 is my conclusion.

3 Q. Did you ever hear during those three months that anyone fired a

4 shell, a bullet, inside the town or around the Old Town?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You mentioned yesterday negotiations. Who was representing

7 Croatia in those negotiations?

8 A. People were frequently replaced, so I cannot say exactly who was

9 negotiating on that day.

10 Q. I'm not asking you about that specific day. I'm asking you

11 whether you know who represented Croatia.

12 A. There were different people coming and going. They were not

13 always the same negotiators.

14 Q. Can you mention one name?

15 A. Djuro Kolic.

16 Q. Can you add any more names?

17 A. I think, but I'm not sure, that one of them was Cico Obuljen.

18 Q. Do you know what a crisis staff is?

19 A. No, I don't.

20 Q. Have you ever heard there was a crisis staff in Dubrovnik?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you hear that on the radio, that the Crisis Staff of Dubrovnik

23 was issuing statements?

24 A. As far as I can recall, no.

25 Q. Who governed the city during those three months of 1991?

Page 1089












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Page 1090

1 A. I don't know exactly what you mean by "who governed the town." I

2 think that Petar Poljanic was the president of the Municipal Assembly at

3 the time.

4 Q. Did he represent the Croatian authorities in the town at the time?

5 A. I told you that he was the president of the town, and I believe

6 that a person in such position governs the city. If that is what you

7 mean.

8 Q. Did any people come from Zagreb?

9 A. Yeah, people came from Zagreb. There were foreign observers. It

10 was quite normal that people came to the town from all quarters.

11 Q. Did you see any of the ministers from the Croatian government or

12 did you hear that any one of them visited the city?

13 A. I don't remember.

14 Q. Do you know if Mr. Stipe Mesic maybe visited Dubrovnik?

15 A. Yes, I know about that visit, because he came when the first

16 convoy arrived, and he was at the helm of this convoy.

17 Q. Do you remember any other names?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Tell me: Through the Pile gate, was there always, or is it still

20 now, which is less important, permitted for motor vehicles to enter the

21 town, motorcycles, vans, delivery vans? Are they allowed to pass

22 through the gate into the town?

23 A. Yes, but all the deliveries arrive from the direction of Ploce.

24 This gate is reserved for emergencies only, for instance, for an

25 ambulance. Otherwise, it is forbidden for any motor vehicles to enter the

Page 1091

1 town from Pile.

2 Q. Could a small van, a small lorry, pass -- or come into the town,

3 whether from Pile or from Ploce?

4 A. Yes, it's possible.

5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you allow me, I

6 think that this would be the right time for us to take a break, if you

7 agree. Thank you.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that indication, Mr. Petrovic. I

9 think it's a good opportunity now.

10 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Just before you continue, Mr. Petrovic, could I

13 indicate that, as foreshadowed yesterday, it will not be convenient for

14 the Trial Chamber to resume for the third session this afternoon, so that

15 we will break at some time between a quarter past and half past 5.00, and

16 that will be the end of the hearing time this afternoon.

17 Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will do

19 my utmost to complete my cross-examination by that time, if not before.

20 Q. Mr. Grubisic, I would now like to focus on the 6th of December.

21 Tell me, please: When, in your recollection, did the attack of the 6th of

22 December begin? And please be as brief as possible, so that you can get

23 away tomorrow. Because, as you see, our sitting today will be shorter.

24 So when, in your recollection, did the attack begin?

25 A. At about 5.30 a.m.

Page 1092

1 Q. When did you see shells landing in the vicinity of the Dubrovnik

2 Cafe?

3 A. I'm sorry. I didn't understand your question.

4 Q. Is that at around 5.30 or 6.00 a.m.? Was it then that you saw

5 shells landing around the Dubrovnik Cafe, near the Pile gate?

6 A. Oh, the Dubrovnik Cafe. Sorry. I didn't understand. Yes. At

7 that point, we got up, and I saw that the Imperial Hotel had been hit.

8 That's what I can see from my window. And I saw that the Dubrovnik Cafe

9 had been hit. And I saw that looking over the walls from my room.

10 Q. Tell me, please: You said yesterday that the Dubrovnik Cafe is

11 some 10 or 15 metres away from the Pile gate; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, something like that.

13 Q. And Pile is the entrance to the Old Town, the Pile gate, that is,

14 from the west; am I right?

15 A. Yes, you are.

16 Q. Please explain to me how you could have seen from your window

17 something that is ten metres away from the Old Town.

18 A. I couldn't see the cafe itself. I have a direct view of the

19 Imperial Hotel over the city walls but not the cafe itself. However, when

20 the shell landed, I saw the smoke rising from just behind the walls, and

21 that was when the cafe was hit.

22 Q. So you assumed that Dubrovnik Cafe had been hit?

23 A. Yes. At that time, I assumed it. And on the next day, I was able

24 to ascertain that for myself.

25 Q. Why didn't you tell us yesterday that you assumed that the

Page 1093

1 Dubrovnik Cafe had been hit? You told the Chamber that you saw the

2 Dubrovnik Cafe being hit.

3 A. Well, I have just told you: I did see the smoke rising after the

4 shell landed. If I use the words that you have quoted back to me, then

5 I'm correcting myself now.

6 Q. So you saw neither the cafe, nor anything in the cafe or around

7 the cafe?

8 A. No. You can't see the cafe itself from my window. But when it

9 was hit, I could see the smoke. In front of the cafe, there are two

10 trees, and the branches had been all broken by the shelling. You could

11 see that.

12 Q. Yesterday you used these words. This was on page 16, at 16 hours

13 and 13 minutes. You said: "From my window, I saw shells landing on Hotel

14 Imperial, the Pile gate, and the Dubrovnik Cafe."

15 Why weren't you precise then in your reply? Why didn't you say

16 that you assumed that the Dubrovnik Cafe had been hit, that you didn't see

17 what was there, who was there; that this was all your assumption? Why

18 didn't you say that?

19 MR. WEINER: I object. We just went through this. We just went

20 through this. He said he saw the shell, he saw the explosion, the smoke,

21 and then the next day he assumed it was the Cafe Dubrovnik, and the next

22 day he saw it was in fact the Cafe Dubrovnik. We've just gone through

23 that for five minutes.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic, I'm not sure what further point it is

25 that you're wanting to make.

Page 1094

1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the point I'm trying

2 to make is to show you that the witness did not see any of them. He saw

3 the damage on the following day. But what was actually happening, and

4 when it was happening, he couldn't see.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic, can I suggest that you've got it

6 clear from the witness that he did not see the actual shell, or shells,

7 landing on the cafe. It is not yet clear whether he saw anything directly

8 about any other building at that time, such as the hotel. So if you want

9 to pursue that, you may want to do that. Otherwise, I think it has become

10 very clear from what you have put to him already that he did not actually

11 see shells land on the cafe.

12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will try

13 to clarify this in a different way.

14 Q. In your statement, you say: "We were able to see shells flying."

15 How can you see that? What does this look like? How did you see that

16 happening?

17 A. When we woke up that morning.

18 Q. I have to interrupt you. I'm not asking you when you woke up or

19 where you went. I'm simply asking you: You say: "We saw shells flying."

20 What does this look like?

21 A. You can tell by the sound. I may have used the word "saw"

22 symbolically, but you can tell by the sound exactly how the shells were

23 flying, and especially the incendiary shells. You can see those.

24 Q. What is the difference between the sound of an incendiary and a

25 non-incendiary projectile?

Page 1095












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Page 1096

1 A. I'm no military expert, but I think the sound is the same.

2 Q. I think you just said that you did draw a distinction. Maybe I

3 misunderstood you. But, well, let this go. It doesn't matter.

4 So whatever you say you saw, in fact you only heard it?

5 A. No. Some things I saw and some things I heard.

6 Q. And some things you assumed?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you see the shells or did you hear them? I have to ask you

9 again.

10 A. On that day, I didn't see them, but I did hear them. I heard them

11 very well. And I saw them on other occasions, and those were incendiary

12 ones. But not on that day, because on that day I did not leave my cellar.

13 Q. What does an incendiary shell flying through the air look like?

14 Can you describe it, please.

15 A. It's very shiny. You can see the flash of light. And if you saw

16 the video footage of the boats that were hit and that burnt in the harbour

17 on St. Nicholas's Day, then you would know what this flash of light looks

18 like. I don't know how to explain it otherwise.

19 Q. Very well. That's sufficient.

20 Did you go down to the cellar as soon as the shelling started?

21 A. Yes, the minute it started.

22 Q. You didn't leave your cellar until 3.00 p.m. on that day?

23 A. No, I didn't.

24 Q. Yesterday you told us that you went down to the cellar when the

25 shelling started, and you have just confirmed this. And then you said

Page 1097

1 that at 3.00 p.m. you left the cellar. I remember that.

2 A. You asked me -- you said you didn't go, did you? And I wanted to

3 confirm what you said. Maybe it was a misunderstanding.

4 Q. Yes. All right. That's what I wanted to hear.

5 And whatever happened in the Old Town on that day, between 5.00 or

6 5.30 a.m. and 3.00 p.m., you didn't see that?

7 A. No, I didn't. I didn't see anything. Because we couldn't even

8 stick our heads out to peep out of the cellar.

9 Q. So you couldn't see, for example, who was at Pile; is that right?

10 A. I think I've answered that. If I didn't see anything, then how

11 could I see someone at Pile.

12 Q. Thank you. Yes, you're right. Nor could you have seen who was

13 right next to the Old Town walls?

14 A. Excuse me, but a while ago you asked me what I was able to see

15 from the cellar. I was able to see the wall of the Franciscan monastery

16 and nothing else.

17 Q. So nothing that was happening in or around the Old Town, from 5.00

18 a.m. to 3.00 p.m., you don't know anything about that?

19 A. No, I don't.

20 Q. Thank you. Let me now show you a photograph. I ask you to assist

21 me. Just a moment, please.

22 Tell me: On that day, was the clock tower, the bell tower, hit?

23 A. I think it was.

24 Q. On that day, was the Od Zigurate church targeted?

25 A. I think so, yes.

Page 1098

1 Q. Was St. Onofrio's fountain on that day?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What was the damage made on that day on the city bell tower or

4 clock tower?

5 A. I said I thought that was the date it had been hit. The cupola

6 had been hit by a shell.

7 Q. And what was the damage?

8 A. I don't know how to tell you. The shell arrived from Zarkovica

9 and from the side looking out to sea, the cupola was destroyed or damaged.

10 Because on that day, over a thousand shells fell on the Old Town, and it's

11 difficult to know when which building was hit.

12 Q. And who told you about these thousand shells?

13 A. Almost every house in the Old Town was -- or 80 per cent of them

14 were hit, and I saw that for myself afterwards. Almost every building on

15 Prijeko had been hit. On Stradun itself, about 50. And then the

16 Franciscan monastery. And I also read about it in the papers and the

17 Institute for Cultural Heritage issued a statement.

18 Q. Tell me: How do you know that the city clock tower was hit from

19 the sea side?

20 A. Because the cupola was damaged on the side overlooking the town

21 harbour. So not from the side looking on to Lokrum, but the side looking

22 on to the harbour.

23 Q. Well, describe what the cupola looked like after it had been hit.

24 Was any of it left?

25 A. Yes, but it had -- it was kind of blown apart. It was jagged.

Page 1099

1 I'm sure the Court will be able to see the photographs of the damage on

2 the buildings that were hit.

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to

4 show the witness a photograph now. [In English] Can you put it on the

5 ELMO, please.

6 Q. [Interpretation] Tell me: Is this the city tower? Can you have a

7 look?

8 A. I can't see all of it, so I'm not sure. I think it is. You can't

9 see all of it here, but just the upper part. But I think it is.

10 Q. Is this a picture taken before the attack and the damage, before

11 the war?

12 A. I've just said: I'm not sure, because I can't see the clock.

13 I've never been up there. And truth to tell, I'm not sure whether this

14 actually is the city bell tower or not.

15 Q. Well, it says so underneath the photograph.

16 A. Well, you can write whatever you like down there, but I would like

17 to see all of it.

18 Q. Well, I can help you and tell you that this is 01069833, a

19 Prosecution exhibit, Exhibit number 35. If this assists the Chamber. And

20 there is no doubt that this is in fact the city clock tower. So I'm

21 asking you whether it was taken before or after 1991.

22 A. I don't know.

23 MR. WEINER: Objection [Previous translation continues]... Your

24 Honour. Who is testifying here? He hasn't shown me the picture, so I

25 haven't had a good chance to look at the picture. He's just shown it to

Page 1100

1 the witness. That's number one. Number two, that's a single angle of a

2 rectangular clock tower. He's not showing us all four sides or the total

3 circumference of the clock tower. He can ask the witness, if the witness

4 can't identify it, then he has to show it to another witness. He's trying

5 to use it as a piece of evidence by a witness who can't even identify it.

6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you'll allow me,

7 please. Your Honour, this is an excerpt from the Exhibit 35 of the

8 Prosecution. I'm simply presenting something that exists in the

9 Prosecutor's file of documents. This is a huge exhibit, as you probably

10 know and it contains hundreds of pages. Therefore, I couldn't bring it

11 with me, because that would be too incumbent. This is in fact the

12 preliminary report of the Institute for the Cultural Protection of

13 Dubrovnik, and as far as the bell tower is concerned, there were two

14 photographs. One of them is this one that we are looking at now, and the

15 other one I can show later. And I think my approach to this matter is

16 quite correct, because this is something that we had seen before here.

17 However, the witness is entitled to say that he doesn't know that;

18 however, I believe that I am entitled to ask these kind of questions.

19 JUDGE PARKER: You are certainly, Mr. Petrovic, able to put each

20 of these photographs to the witness to see if he can identify what it

21 shows and whether he can identify the damage that he's talking about in

22 that photograph. Whether the damage will be visible in either of these

23 photographs, I don't know. As Mr. Weiner points out, there are several

24 sides to the building, and the photograph may not depict the side the

25 witness is speaking about, if indeed it is a photograph of the tower that

Page 1101












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1102

1 the witness is speaking about.

2 Do you have any concern about that, Mr. Weiner?

3 MR. WEINER: I have no concern about him showing a photograph. I

4 do have concerns about him showing a photograph, the witness saying that

5 he doesn't recognise that, and then him testifying as to what it is.

6 That's where my concern is. I also have a concern of him showing one

7 angle of the bell tower, if it is. Thank you.

8 JUDGE PARKER: I understand what you're saying, but please

9 understand, Mr. Petrovic is relying on the exhibits that have been

10 included in your brief of, he understands, the tower, and is wanting to

11 ask questions about it. And I think we are spending a lot of time over

12 some technical detail. Either the witness can identify the tower or not

13 as the one he speaks of, and he will either be able to say that the damage

14 he's speaking of is shown in the photograph or it isn't. And we will then

15 be able to move on.

16 MR. WEINER: That's fair.

17 JUDGE PARKER: I think that's what you're wanting to do,

18 Mr. Petrovic.

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. Grubisic, is this the eastern side of the town bell tower?

21 A. I'm not sure. As I said at the beginning, I had never gone

22 upstairs. If I had had the whole picture, I could have known that.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please give me back the

25 photograph. This is the photograph as part of the Prosecutor's set of

Page 1103

1 exhibits, and you can see the damage in the upper left corner that

2 allegedly took place, according to the witness.

3 Q. Why, Mr. Grubisic, do you think that there's any point in your

4 exaggerating this issue? Don't you think that in an already difficult and

5 unhappy, unfortunate situation, there's no benefit to trying to prove

6 something --

7 MR. WEINER: I object.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic, if I could interrupt there. The

9 witness has certainly not indicated that he sees in that photograph the

10 damage that he has described, nor has he indicated that the damage shown

11 in that photograph is damage that he can confirm occurred on the 6th of

12 December. In those situations, you really can't put to him that his

13 evidence in any way is exaggerating what actually occurred. You will have

14 to lay a much more clear evidentiary foundation before it will be

15 appropriate for such an observation to be made.

16 Now, Mr. Weiner, does that deal with what you were wanting to

17 raise?

18 MR. WEINER: That is fine. I just -- I just want to comment that

19 that is about the third or fourth time that this attorney has made what I

20 would consider rude, condescending remarks to the witness, and I find it

21 not acceptable here.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Weiner.

23 If you would carry on, Mr. Petrovic.

24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I must reply to what

25 Mr. Weiner just said. It is my right and it is my obligation to point out

Page 1104

1 to the witness not speaking the truth if I feel that that is the case.

2 There is nothing offending in that. I don't think why this is offensive,

3 and what is the problem with that? This is my right. But I will not take

4 more of your time, and I would like now to proceed to another topic.

5 Q. Tell me, please --

6 A. Please, am I allowed to say something? I am also being offended

7 by this gentleman implying that I'm not telling the truth. I have taken

8 an oath, and I am telling the truth. Not a single word that I uttered was

9 untrue. The only thing which I said at the beginning, I may be mistaken

10 in some things about a date or a day when a certain building was hit, but

11 I am just retelling of what I personally experienced. Thank you.

12 Q. Tell me, please: Yesterday you mentioned Od Zigurate church. How

13 was this church damaged?

14 A. I said that it had been hit by a huge shell.

15 Q. What kind of damage was inflicted?

16 A. The cupola and the whole roof was demolished. I apologise. I

17 don't see it on the screen.

18 Q. No, there isn't. Just a second.

19 Tell me: What kind of damage was inflicted on the cupola?

20 A. I told you that it was damaged, but I didn't climb up there. It's

21 being restored in the meantime. But what kind of damage was caused, you

22 can only imagine how a shell can damage such things. I don't know how

23 else to reply to your question.

24 Q. Just to remind you of what the witness said yesterday about the

25 church: "[In English] It had a little dome, and this was just blown

Page 1105

1 apart."

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] May I kindly ask the usher to show

3 this photograph to the witness.

4 Q. I would kindly ask the witness to say whether this is the Od

5 Zigurate church?

6 A. It should be, yes.

7 Q. Can you please describe for me what you see in this photograph.

8 A. I see that the roof is demolished, and I see other damage as well.

9 Q. Do you see the cupola?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Is that damaged or demolished also?

12 A. This is not a very good photograph, but as I can see, the cupola

13 is still standing.

14 Q. So why did you tell us that it had been blown up?

15 A. I don't know what exact words I used, but I do know, and I'm

16 telling you today, that it had been heavily damaged and that it was

17 renovated in the meantime.

18 Q. Thank you. I don't need the photograph any more.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Are you able, Mr. Petrovic, to identify what

20 photograph that was that was shown to the witness? Is it a Prosecution

21 exhibit?

22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is the

23 Prosecution Exhibit 35, and photograph is 01069209.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

25 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, for the record, I think you should have

Page 1106

1 it marked for identification or offered as a piece of evidence. If he

2 doesn't want to offer it, at least mark it for identification for the

3 record.

4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was thinking whether

5 it would be appropriate, but due to the shortness of time, I wanted to do

6 it this way, and I propose this to be included in the brief, and this

7 would facilitate the work for all of us. So that's the photograph that I

8 propose to be included and tendered into the evidence.

9 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues]... Show the

10 witness, I think it would be useful to mark them for identification,

11 Mr. Petrovic. It will enable us all to know what it was at some later

12 time, if it's relevant. But there were two photographs, in order.

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] This is in fact the first

14 photograph, and the one we've just seen would be the second.

15 JUDGE PARKER: All right. The first will be marked for

16 identification first.

17 THE REGISTRAR: The photograph bearing ERN number 01069833 will be

18 D13, marked for identification. And photograph bearing ERN number

19 01069209 will be D14, marked for identification.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

21 MR. PETROVIC: May I ask to show this photograph to the witness as

22 well, please. Here is the copies.

23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Grubisic, can you recognise from which

24 location this photograph has been made, has been taken?

25 A. You can see in it St. Jacob, in the upper part. So it must have

Page 1107

1 been taken from -- either from the walls or from the Jesuit church.

2 Q. Mr. Grubisic, this photograph shows the roof of the house on

3 Celestina Medovica number 8. Do you know that house? If not, then it's

4 all right.

5 A. The roof, no.

6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is the photograph

7 marked 01069192, attached to the preliminary report by the Institution for

8 the Protection of Cultural Monuments, as part of the Exhibit P35 of the

9 Prosecution, and is attached as an illustration of the text on the page

10 01069191, which speaks about damage on Celestina Medovica number 8. So

11 can we please include these photographs for identification.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I live on number 4.

13 JUDGE PARKER: The photograph will be marked for identification.

14 THE REGISTRAR: D15, marked for identification.

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 JUDGE PARKER: I'll just note for the record, Mr. Petrovic, that

17 the reference to Prosecution Exhibit 35 is from, I think, the 65 ter list

18 and not from this trial proceeding. Just so that it's clear.

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I apologise. I

20 should have emphasised that this was Exhibit 35 from the 65 ter list, and

21 my apologies for that.

22 Could you please show this photograph to the witness, or rather,

23 the drawing.

24 Q. Can you mark in this drawing where your house is located? If

25 that's too difficult for you, then I'll give up. You have certain numbers

Page 1108

1 here. The first street here is the Prijeko Street. So can you tell us

2 near to which number your house was?

3 A. I said that my house was the first above the Prijeko Street, and

4 so if you look at the Prijeko Street here, the first one would be my

5 house.

6 Q. Are you referring to number 1?

7 A. No, I don't think so. I don't see number 1 here.

8 Q. Can you see number 14, at the bottom of the sketch?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you see number 1 right above it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is that where your house is?

13 A. I'm confused by this drawing.

14 Q. Okay. Let's proceed.

15 A. I was confused by looking at this drawing on the screen. I do

16 apologise for that. I would like to see the whole map. Only then could I

17 be able to orient myself precisely; otherwise, this is kind of confusing

18 for me.

19 Q. On the left-hand side, is the Franciscan monastery. The Prijeko

20 Street is horizontal and the first vertical street is yours. Is that

21 helping?

22 A. I know very well which my street is, and I pointed yesterday in

23 the map exactly where my house was. However, I cannot work with this

24 drawing.

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Just for the sake of

Page 1109

1 identification, this is also from 65 ter list. This is Exhibit number

2 10969188. Could you please mark it for identification so that we can

3 proceed.

4 JUDGE PARKER: What is the point of marking this for

5 identification, Mr. Petrovic?

6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will explain what

7 it's all about. So this is a very good layout, or a map, and based on

8 this map, individual identification of the damage were established on the

9 street. So on the basis of this map, individual analyses had been made

10 about the degree of damage. I believe that the witness would be able to

11 recognise that his house was there. However, if he's not able to do that,

12 I will not insist on this, and I propose that we proceed.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. As the witness can't identify it, it

14 shouldn't be marked for identification.

15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I fully agree.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a very bad picture. If I

17 had a good map in front of me, however, it is very difficult for me to

18 identify from this kind of picture.

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Believe me, I have the same

20 problem. But as I understand, you are not able to identify your house, so

21 let us go on.

22 Q. Can you tell me something about the damage on your house inflicted

23 on the 6th of December?

24 A. Only one shell hit the roof of my house. There was no other

25 damage. There were also some fragments that landed on the Franciscan

Page 1110

1 monastery, and they had broken windows on my studies and on the stone.

2 You can see the damage caused by the fragment. Some four metres of the

3 floor was blown up -- of the roof - sorry - was blown up by a grenade.

4 However, a friend of mine repaired the roof, in order to stop the rain

5 from coming in.

6 Q. Has anyone photographed the damage on your house inflicted on the

7 6th of December?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Did you open the door to your house for anyone to come in and look

10 at what the damage was?

11 A. I said no, because we had already repaired the roof two or three

12 days later.

13 Q. So no one from the Institute for the Protection of Cultural

14 Monuments marked your house or recorded your house as having been damaged

15 in the events of 6th December?

16 A. Maybe they did, but not at that time. That would have been much

17 later. As I said, it was repaired, but the roof was part of the overall

18 renovation, and it has been renovated.

19 Q. So at 3.00 p.m. on December the 6th, no one came to your house to

20 see the damage?

21 A. What date?

22 Q. Well, 6th of December, 1991, at 1.00 p.m.

23 A. I don't recall that, but I don't know. I think not, at that time.

24 I think. Because, as I said, we had already repaired it.

25 Q. Can you tell me what the size was of the opening on your roof?

Page 1111

1 A. About three or four square metres.

2 Q. If I told you --

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Bear with me for a while, please.

4 [Defence counsel confer]

5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Tell me: Was there any other damage on your building, apart from

7 the hole in the roof? What about the walls?

8 A. No, there was no damage.

9 Q. The plaster on the walls?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Any cracks?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please: The Domino church, or All Saints

14 Church, what was the damage on the roof of that church?

15 A. It's hard for me to say, because I never climbed up onto the roof.

16 But we had to replace the entire roof, because later on, on the 30th or on

17 the 1st of June, 1992, there was more damage, so we had to repair the

18 entire roof. And friends helped us stop the holes. And I wouldn't be

19 able to answer your question, because I couldn't climb up and I couldn't

20 see from below.

21 Q. Can you tell me exactly what damage was inflicted on the 6th of

22 December and which damage in May or June 1992?

23 A. The roof was hit on the 6th, right above the balustrade, as I

24 said, and the ceiling had been pierced, and the plaster fell on the

25 balustrade. In front of the church, a shell had landed, which had

Page 1112

1 shattered the stairs, both windows, and the rose window above the portal.

2 In late May or early June, a shell landed below the window. There were

3 two round windows at the sides of the altar, and the one facing the

4 Stradun, on the north, that's where an enormous projectile hit the church,

5 underneath the window. It did not pierce through. But four or five

6 square metres of stone inside, near the entrance to the sacristy, and the

7 sanctuary where the altar is, four or five square metres of stones fell

8 down onto the floor.

9 Q. So what damage occurred, when?

10 A. Well, I've told you.

11 Q. Very well. Thank you.

12 What happened to the rose window?

13 A. The rose window was so badly damaged that we had to replace it and

14 put in a new one.

15 Q. Was it blown up, shattered?

16 A. The right-hand window was blown up, right to the right when you're

17 leaving the church, toward the Od Puca Street. That was completely

18 destroyed. The rose window, however, had been partly hit but the damage

19 was such that it had to be replaced altogether.

20 Q. What about the carving of the rose window?

21 A. What do you mean?

22 Q. Was only the glass shattered, or the entire window?

23 A. I think that all the glass was shattered, but the wood.

24 Q. I was referring to the stone carvings.

25 A. No. The stone was not destroyed. It may have been hit by a few

Page 1113

1 pieces of shrapnel. I don't think it was.

2 Q. Was your house hit at any other time except on the 6th of

3 December?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Are you sure your house was not hit on the 12th of November?

6 A. I am sure.

7 Q. Tell me: From whom did you hear that Sofronije Jeremic was to

8 arrive in the city of Dubrovnik?

9 A. I heard it on the radio.

10 Q. What exactly did you hear on the radio?

11 A. I can't tell you right now, but it was that he was to land in the

12 city harbour, either for negotiations or, if I'm not mistaken, some kind

13 of international military delegation had arrived. And he arrived on the

14 same occasion, and that is why we took the liberty of coming seeing him in

15 the city harbour.

16 Q. Did you know when he was to arrive, at what time?

17 A. No. No. But when they said that he had arrived, that was when I

18 went to see him.

19 Q. Do you know why he came to Dubrovnik?

20 A. I've already told you that I don't, but I assumed that because an

21 international military delegation had arrived, that was the reason. But I

22 don't know.

23 Q. What kind of uniform was he wearing?

24 A. He wasn't wearing a uniform. He was wearing very elegant clothes.

25 I found him on the boat. And he was drinking Bevanda, a mixture of wine

Page 1114

1 and water, which was in a glass in front of him.

2 Q. And what you're talk about was described in a newspaper article,

3 if I'm not wrong?

4 A. Yes. Mato Jerinic, a journalist from our area, wrote about it,

5 I think in Slobodna Dalmacija.

6 Q. What did you do with this article?

7 A. I kept the cutting as a memento.

8 Q. Did you give it to anyone?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who did you give it to?

11 A. When The Hague investigators came to interview me, when we got to

12 this topic, I gave them a copy of that article.

13 Q. Did they show you the article again when you arrived in The Hague

14 now?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Tell me briefly, please: How did you go to Konavle, and who gave

17 you approval to go there on Christmas of that year?

18 A. The late Don Vlado Puce was in Konavle. He was the only priest

19 who had remained there. And he was taking care of all the parishes. He

20 requested assistance at Christmastime. And in Dubrovnik, we had to ask

21 for permission, but it was the late Don Vlado who went to ask for it, and

22 I think that this was in Cavtat. It was called the command or something

23 like that. And then we took the boat that for a while ran between

24 Dubrovnik and Cavtat, and we went to Cavtat.

25 Q. And were you able to hold services in the churches in Konavle?

Page 1115

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

3 questions.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

5 Mr. Weiner.

6 MR. WEINER: Just short.

7 Re-examined by Mr. Weiner:

8 Q. Father Grubisic, they asked you about Captain Jeremic's visit.

9 Did Captain Jeremic complain to you or ask you about any Croatian troops

10 or soldiers in the Old Town?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did Captain Jeremic indicate any concern about any Croatian troops

13 or soldiers being in the Old Town?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You told us that you complained to Captain Jeremic about the

16 different problems. Did he offer any response, something in relation to

17 orders?

18 A. He only said that he was carrying out orders.

19 Q. And he said he was carrying out orders in relation to what? That

20 was his response in relation to which complaints?

21 A. When I said to him: "Sir, what kind of opinion can we have of you

22 when we hear on the radio that you ordered food to be thrown into the sea,

23 milk, batteries, all the things we who are under siege need?" He just

24 kept repeating: "I'm only carrying out orders."

25 Q. Now, sir, I would like you to look at the screen. I want to show

Page 1116

1 you a photograph on the screen.

2 MR. WEINER: Could the usher please assist the witness for one

3 moment. Is it on the screen, sir? Thank you.

4 Q. Sir, could you look at that building. Do you recognise that, the

5 building -- the hole, the large hole in the cupola?

6 A. Of course I recognise it, because you can see the green men who

7 hit the clock [as interpreted], the bell. This is the city bell tower

8 cupola. I didn't recognise the other photograph, but I do recognise this

9 one. And you can see the hole on the cupola. I think this was on the

10 12th. I said at the beginning that it's very difficult for me to give a

11 precise date for every hit, because it's been 13 or 14 years ago. But

12 yes, this is the city bell tower. This is a very clear picture.

13 Q. And on the cupola, is that the damage that you saw to the bell

14 tower?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we have an

17 identification for this photograph? What sort of document it is, where

18 it's from, its number, its marking, anything about this photograph.

19 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, if he gives me a moment. We were not

20 prepared to offer this photo today, but I'd like to give the ERN number

21 and offer it tomorrow. This is one of the photographs, one of the many

22 photographs that had been provided to Defence, and the ERN number is -- it

23 doesn't have an ERN number. It was on the disk provided to the Defence on

24 the 15th of December. I was hoping to offer it tomorrow, based -- since

25 it's almost 5.15, and -- but if we could -- the reference is -- on the

Page 1117

1 Sanction list is --

2 JUDGE PARKER: Is this being displayed from the disk?

3 MR. WEINER: Yes. No. It's being displayed through Sanction,

4 which is the internal system of the Office of the Prosecutor. Copies are

5 on the way right now. We should have them in a few moments.

6 JUDGE PARKER: And they are from a disk provided on the 15th of

7 December last --

8 MR. WEINER: Yes. Your Honour, maybe we could even remedy some of

9 this problem. In some of the other cases, similar to the Prosecution

10 notifying the Defence in advance as to new documents it's planning to use,

11 they also require the Defence to notify the Prosecution as to documents

12 it's planning -- new documents it's planning to use. In this manner,

13 we've already seen the document, so we have an idea what they're showing

14 the witness; and number two, we also have the chance, like in this

15 situation, to have information available to respond, as opposing to trying

16 to e-mail upstairs and trying to get a quick copy of a document.

17 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sure that will be borne in mind by Mr. Petrovic

18 and Mr. Rodic.

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, whenever possible,

20 yes, of course. But there are some situations where the course of a

21 testimony prevents this. However, whenever we are able to do so, we will

22 notify our learned friends as soon as possible.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something? May I?

25 JUDGE PARKER: I think, Don Grubisic, it might be quicker and

Page 1118

1 better if you just left it to Mr. Weiner to ask you the questions at this

2 stage. Thank you.


4 Q. Okay. And just the final question, sir, the final area of

5 questions. Were you in your shelter, in your home in that cellar which

6 you were using as a shelter, on a daily basis?

7 A. Not every day, but whenever there was an alert or shelling taking

8 place.

9 Q. And sir, during the evenings, did you stay in the shelter, or

10 we'll call it the cellar? In your cellar?

11 A. Never in the evening.

12 Q. And after these alerts would end, what would you do?

13 A. We would return to the flat and continue as usual, do our business

14 about the town.

15 Q. And on those days when there was no shelling or no alerts, did you

16 walk around the town?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. And did you ever see any Croatian troops or anyone firing from

19 outside of the town on those days?

20 A. Never.

21 MR. WEINER: At this moment, Your Honour, I'd like to offer copies

22 of this photograph which the witness has identified as the bell tower,

23 with the large hole in the cupola.

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 JUDGE PARKER: If the document could be brought forward to the

Page 1119

1 court officer, please, Mr. Usher.

2 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

3 JUDGE PARKER: That document will be received, then, into

4 evidence, that photograph.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P31.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

7 MR. WEINER: No further questions, Your Honour. Thank you.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Don Grubisic, may I thank you very much for your

9 attendance and your assistance. That concludes your evidence. You are

10 now free to return to your home and to the work that you needed to do this

11 coming weekend.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I wanted to

13 say something, if I may.

14 JUDGE PARKER: It would be more appropriate if you did not,

15 leaving it to counsel to decide what matters you should speak about or

16 what you shouldn't. I trust you'll understand that.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 JUDGE PARKER: You may leave now, if you wish.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 JUDGE PARKER: It appears clear that we will not be able to

21 proceed with any further witness this afternoon. So the next witness will

22 be -- or the next, Mr. Samardzic, will continue in the morning when we

23 resume, at 9.00.

24 Could I ask Mr. Rodic or Mr. Petrovic whether any consideration

25 has yet been given to the Prosecution's motion for protective measures in

Page 1120

1 the case of one witness, that was filed yesterday.

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have received this

3 motion yesterday, and regardless of the usual deadline for responding, we

4 are going to do that in an appropriate manner, and we shall be able to

5 respond to this brief on Monday. If we should do it sooner, we shall make

6 additional effort to comply; however, we were not able to do that more

7 quickly because the usual time frame is two weeks. However, we shall do

8 our best and respond on Monday.

9 JUDGE PARKER: I wonder, Mr. Petrovic, whether it might be

10 possible simply to respond orally tomorrow. Given the time constraints,

11 it would be I think possible for you to evaluate it. Can I say that given

12 that there is in place a standing order for protection measures, it really

13 is only, as I see it, the first of the proposals that is alive. The rest

14 appears to be covered by the standing order. And I think it should not

15 take very long at all for a view to be formed about the first of the

16 proposed orders, and an oral indication in the morning would be

17 sufficient.

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if that is in order,

19 we will be able to state our views towards the end of tomorrow's working

20 day, if you approve, of course.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Yes.

22 Could I indicate to Ms. Somers that it seemed to us that on a

23 matter such as this, it might be practical to approach the matter orally

24 rather than for you to go to the trouble of a written submission.

25 MS. SOMERS: Thank you. If this is a standing directive of the

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1 Chamber, I'd be very grateful. I'm trying to avoid written submissions

2 where possible. And the only issue would be of course on these matters

3 we'd have to do it in closed or private session. And I would certainly

4 appreciate that.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. As long as you could let the Defence counsel

6 know that you have in mind to raise a matter, and then I think it will cut

7 down the amount of work for both parties if we avoid unnecessary written

8 documents over matters as straightforward as this. There will be other

9 matters, of course, where written documents will be necessary, to ensure

10 that proper consideration is given, but this appears not to be of

11 complexity, and an oral submission on both sides would be adequate.

12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence of

13 Mr. Strugar shares your views. I would only ask you that, if possible, we

14 should allocate a few minutes to present arguments concerning the

15 submission regarding the extension of deadlines for expert witnesses. I

16 think that you have issued order in that respect, that we should try and

17 find five or ten minutes during this week. So maybe it could be

18 convenient to do that tomorrow, of course, if you would allow that.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Very well. We will adjourn now until

20 tomorrow morning. Could I remind everybody that we will be in Courtroom I

21 tomorrow, rather than this courtroom, at 9.00 in the morning.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.25 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Friday, the 23rd day of January

24 2004, at 9.00 a.m.