Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3030

1 Tuesday, 24 February 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. Mr. Rodic.

7 May I remind you of the affirmation you took at the beginning

8 which continues to apply.

9 Yes, Mr. Rodic.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

13 morning, Mr. Witness. Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Rodic: [Continued]

15 Q. Mr. Jovic, during your examination yesterday, you described, among

16 other things, the damage inflicted upon the Old Town which you were able

17 to see. Can you tell me, of course if you know, what particular buildings

18 in the Old Town were on fire and where are these buildings located?

19 A. I have already drawn this information on this map. This is the

20 house in the Miha Pracata Street.

21 Q. Do you know the number?

22 A. I don't know the number. Perhaps it was number 3, 4, or 5. It

23 was the palace in the street of Kuca, Od Kuca across from the Orthodox

24 church, and the house in Siroka Street, and the palace where the Dubrovnik

25 summer festival is held. That is in the Stradun.

Page 3031

1 Q. These are then four buildings that you saw burning?

2 A. Yes, which I saw when I went out into the Old Town.

3 Q. So all these four structures burnt down?

4 A. Yes, they did.

5 Q. And the -- was the Orthodox church damaged?

6 A. Perhaps. I believe that the glass panes were shattered from the

7 shrapnel and perhaps a few pockmarks on the facade from the shrapnel.

8 There was some damage, yes.

9 Q. Do you know what buildings in Miha Pracata Street, for instance,

10 sustained damage to their facades?

11 A. The facade was damaged of this building which had housed number

12 11, across the street from --

13 Q. What is the number of the house across the street, if you know?

14 A. If this was 11, then the other one must have been either 8 or 10.

15 Q. What kind of damage did it sustain? Can you describe it?

16 A. You mean these two houses?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. Well, this house in Miha Pracata Street 11, which had a stone

19 facade, sustained much damage to the stone. The stone mullions around the

20 door, the entire door, the window, and on the upper storey where there

21 were Venetian binds or, rather, shutters, these were damaged as well, and

22 some other things. On the other side there was also damage, but the

23 facade is made of concrete.

24 Q. I apologise for interrupting. When you say concrete facade, is

25 this the house that you say is across the street from number 11 in Miha

Page 3032

1 Pracata Street?

2 A. Yes. The concrete facade showed visible signs of damage, i.e.,

3 holes created by shrapnel as well as damage to the windows and doors and

4 the glass panes, et cetera. And in these other streets down -- farther

5 down, there was a lot of debris in the streets and material that had

6 fallen from the damaged roofs.

7 Q. Did you see -- you probably saw parts of tiles from the roofs when

8 you say debris in the streets.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you see what particular buildings had sustained damage? Can

11 you describe that with precision?

12 A. No, I cannot. I told you which ones were on fire. And as for the

13 damage, I cannot say because material was falling from above, from the

14 roofs. So I cannot say exactly which house was hit. But according to the

15 model, scale model which I saw later, I could see that there were very few

16 roofs that hadn't been damaged.

17 Q. As regards damage to these two buildings in Miha Pracata Street

18 which you mentioned awhile ago and listed, was this damage -- did this

19 damage -- was it caused by these direct hits that you had described

20 earlier?

21 A. Well, this house in Miha Pracata 11, it sustained a direct hit in

22 its roof and others were damaged by shells that had landed in the street.

23 Q. And when you went about these streets in the Old Town as you were

24 leaving --

25 A. Yes.

Page 3033

1 Q. -- do you know which one was directly hit and was damaged by

2 direct impact?

3 A. A street or a house?

4 Q. Buildings. A building.

5 A. Well, probably these that were on fire had been directly hit. And

6 of course these houses nearby there were bricks -- there were bricks and

7 roof tiles and debris, meaning that they had sustained hits in their

8 roofs. There was fragments of shrapnel in the Stradun, and there were --

9 shells had landed on Onofrius fountain and directly on the Stradun street.

10 One could see that facades on both sides of the street, the Stradun that

11 is, were damaged.

12 Q. Can you say concretely what buildings you saw with damaged facades

13 there?

14 A. This one in Siroka Street towards the exit at the Ploce Gate --

15 no, the Pile Gate. I apologise.

16 Q. What buildings? Can you describe to us what buildings these were?

17 The last one when you leave Siroka Street, the first one to the left, the

18 first one to the right? Can you give us a more specific description if

19 you do not know the exact number?

20 A. Well, the first house to the -- on the street next to the festival

21 palace, which is across the street and has a bookstore in the basement

22 next to which is the Croatian lottery building, and then the -- further on

23 towards the Pile Gate, the Franciscan Monastery, and the Friars' Minor

24 Church. And then the tourist association building and further down the

25 Onofrius fountain. Towards the Pile Gate, also the gate itself is

Page 3034

1 damaged, and so --

2 Q. Can you say exactly what was damaged on all these buildings that

3 you could see? Building by building, please.

4 A. Well -- well, on these buildings which are on the Stradun, the

5 facades were lifted, the stone mullions around the doors, the windows.

6 Q. Can we go building by building so you can describe building by

7 building for me.

8 A. Yes, we can.

9 Q. For instance, in Siroka Street, did you pass through it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What buildings did you see were damaged?

12 A. Well, I said this house which was ablaze, the house next to it in

13 which there is a goldsmith, the door was damaged. The facade, the stone

14 facade as well. Then there was shrapnel-inflicted damage. There were

15 pockmarks in the stone.

16 Q. Can you say more specifically what specific part of the facade,

17 what part of the building?

18 A. Predominantly the lower part of the building, the -- where there

19 were more shrapnel marks, where the stone mullions of the facades were

20 damaged. And the damage was more or less the same on all these buildings

21 because all these were stone buildings.

22 Q. When you say -- when you say stone mullions, can you describe for

23 me what particular element of the house this is.

24 A. These stone mullions are elements of stone which are around the

25 door in a single piece as a lintel. And they are called actually in our

Page 3035

1 language stone needles, stone mullions. This is what I call them.

2 Q. You mean the entrance door?

3 A. I mean the entrance doors, the windows, those which have

4 ornamental stone elements and are decorated with them. Depends on the

5 house in question.

6 Q. So you say that generally speaking this was -- this was damaged on

7 all houses.

8 A. Well, to the best of my recollection, as far as I could see.

9 Q. Meaning on all these houses in the streets that you walked through

10 until you left the Old Town. Is that not right?

11 A. Yes. Yes. This is the streets Od Puca, Siroka, and the Stradun.

12 Q. Did you notice there was any house that had not sustained damage?

13 A. Well, there were few houses that didn't have at least some

14 pockmarks on the stone facades effected by fragments of shrapnel. There

15 were few that hadn't sustained damage.

16 Q. Tell me, you said that you hadn't even noticed that you were hurt

17 until Mato Skocko told you that you were hurt.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You also said that in this store of yours, you cleaned the

20 superficial wounds, and sometime around 11.30 had left the building. Is

21 that not so?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. A day later, you had routine treatment administered to you in the

24 infirmary in Gruz.

25 A. Yes.

Page 3036

1 Q. Is it possible that you were perhaps scratched by stone shards?

2 A. It is possible I could have been, but probably because of the

3 width of the hole and the depth of the cutting, it was more probably

4 inflicted by a piece of shrapnel. But it may have been stone, I'm not

5 sure.

6 Q. Have you talked to the investigators of the Tribunal?

7 A. Yes, in Dubrovnik.

8 Q. And in any other place?

9 A. No.

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter believes.

11 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Did you give them a written statement?

13 A. No, just this one in Dubrovnik when they were there in October and

14 September.

15 Q. Was a statement compiled in writing about this interview and did

16 you sign it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was this on the 24th of September, 2003?

19 A. Probably. I cannot recall the date exactly.

20 Q. Had anyone gotten in touch with you prior to that date?

21 A. Yes, the gentleman from the Tribunal did.

22 Q. When?

23 A. Perhaps some 15 or 20 days or a month before that.

24 Q. Had you made an appointment for that particular meeting or what?

25 A. Well, we had an agreement in principle to the effect that they

Page 3037

1 would not be coming to Dubrovnik but that I should come here to The Hague

2 to testify, and in view of the fact that I was getting ready to travel to

3 Australia, I wouldn't. And then later they agreed that they would come to

4 Dubrovnik for our interview, and that's the way it was.

5 Q. And this first interview was in August 2003 or, rather, July and

6 August?

7 A. Yes. About that time, yes.

8 Q. And prior to the year 2003, no one had gotten in touch with you?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you know how exactly they got in touch with you, how was it

11 specifically you that they found?

12 A. No, I don't know.

13 Q. It's been 12 years since then, and no one spoke to you until last

14 year; is that right?

15 A. Yes. I was a bit taken by surprise too. Probably -- I don't

16 know. I don't know. Perhaps it was because of Mr. Skocko's statement or

17 somebody else's statement. Maybe. I'm just guessing, I don't know

18 exactly.

19 Q. Did Mr. Mato Skocko tell you about making a statement?

20 A. Well, no, because we haven't worked together since 1995 -- or was

21 it 1994?

22 Q. You said that as far as Tonci Skocko is concerned, you carried him

23 into the car.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you give us a more specific description in terms of the actual

Page 3038

1 place involved?

2 A. It's towards the end of the street of Miha Pracata where

3 Mr. Skocko came in his car.

4 Q. Is this towards the music school?

5 A. No. It is way down by the intersection between Miha Pracata and

6 the street Od Puca.

7 Q. When you say "down there," what do you mean?

8 A. I mean at the intersection of the street Od Puca and Miha Pracata.

9 Q. How far away is that from your shop?

10 A. Perhaps a hundred metres. About a hundred metres.

11 Q. Did you and Mato Skocko carry Tonci these 100 metres?

12 A. I said it was I, Mato, Mr. Skerlj, and another gentleman whose

13 name I don't know. He happened to be there. He was a customer.

14 Q. As you were carrying him, you noticed where the injury was.

15 Please don't hurry with your answer.

16 A. Not while we were carrying him but as we were placing him into the

17 car. We wanted him to lie down on the back seat, so as I was pulling him

18 by the shoulders, by the arms, that's how his T-shirt moved, and I could

19 see the injury.

20 Q. Tell me, why didn't you mention this in your statement from the

21 month of September? You didn't mention that you carried Tonci Skocko to

22 the car, and you did not mention that you saw where he was wounded.

23 A. Well, I did state that, but perhaps they did not record all of

24 it. Because we talked for four hours, and it's about a two-page record

25 only.

Page 3039

1 Q. In your statement there's not a single word about this.

2 A. Well, I don't know. You have to ask them.

3 Q. In your statement, it says that you could not see where he was

4 wounded. "We could not see at all where he had been wounded." That's the

5 sentence here in your statement.

6 A. Well, that's what I said. In the shop we couldn't see because

7 there wasn't any blood. There wasn't anything. And we were trying to

8 resuscitate a man who was already dead.

9 Q. Was it only here that they showed you where Tonci Skocko was

10 wounded?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you see a picture?

13 A. No.

14 Q. In your statement, it also says that it was only later, after

15 Tonci was taken to hospital, you found out that he was hit by shrapnel in

16 the heart. That's what you said to the investigator.

17 A. I don't think I put it that way. Perhaps -- well, I said that I

18 found out only when Mr. Skocko came back from the hospital, I found out

19 that Tonci was dead.

20 Q. This is what you say: "Mato then rushed him to the hospital. At

21 the hospital, it was diagnosed that shrapnel had pierced his heart."

22 A. Yes. That is what they diagnosed at the hospital.

23 Q. Again, you learned about all of that subsequently; is that right?

24 A. What did I learn?

25 Q. Well, where the shrapnel had hit him.

Page 3040

1 A. I said that I saw the hole, and then when Mato Skocko returned

2 from the hospital, he said that this, what we call shrapnel, hit him

3 directly in the heart and that, therefore, he could not be saved.

4 Q. And that is what Mato Skocko said to you when he got back from

5 hospital, when he came back to the shop?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. However, Mato Skocko, in his statement, says: "A friend of mine

8 and I put Tonci in the car and set out to the hospital straight away." He

9 does not mention you at all, that he -- when he was carrying Tonci to the

10 car that he was helped by you.

11 A. You have to ask him about that if that's what he stated.

12 Q. Where does the wife of Mato Skocko work or, rather, where did she

13 work then?

14 A. I don't know. I've forgotten. I don't know whether she worked

15 anywhere.

16 Q. Have you heard perhaps that she worked at the Argentina Hotel?

17 A. Possibly. I'm not sure about that.

18 Q. Would you tell me why Mato Skocko returned to the shop from

19 hospital, why?

20 A. I don't know about that. He took the car up there, left it there

21 because the car didn't really have any tyres, or, rather, the tyres were

22 punctured. So then he returned to the shop where the rest of us had been,

23 those who had stayed behind, and he probably could not go home anyway.

24 And he had no one to go with because he was alone at the hospital.

25 Q. How long did he stay at the shop? I mean, you say that you stayed

Page 3041












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3042

1 until 11.30. Did he stay after you?

2 A. Well, I don't know about such details. I think we all left more

3 or less at the same time. Perhaps a bit earlier, I don't know. Because I

4 think that Mr. Skerlj also went with him, because his wife hadn't known

5 that the son was killed.

6 Q. Well, don't you find that strange; if he finds out in hospital

7 that his son got killed, he comes back to the shop and he sits there?

8 A. Well, that's the way it was.

9 Q. Mato Skocko says in his statement: "In hospital, the physician

10 confirmed to me that my son was dead and that he had been dead for a

11 while. The doctor gave me a tranquiliser, a shot. I was in a state of

12 shock. Soon after that, I fled from the hospital to see my wife at the

13 hotel to tell her that our son was dead."

14 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honour.


16 MR. RE: The Prosecution objects to my learned colleague -- our

17 learned colleague Mr. Rodic reading extracts from a statement of a witness

18 who has not given evidence and the evidence isn't before the Tribunal and

19 asking the -- this witness here to comment on it. He shouldn't do it.

20 JUDGE PARKER: That is the position, Mr. Rodic. If you want to

21 raise the matter, you can go so far as to say, "Isn't it the position that

22 the gentleman left the hospital and went to the hotel to see his wife?"

23 The witness will either agree with you or disagree with you. You can't

24 then go on to say, "Well, this is what he said in his statement." I think

25 you'll be familiar with that.

Page 3043

1 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honour. Yes, I shall

2 rephrase the question.

3 Q. Mr. Jovic, after being in the hospital, didn't Mato go directly to

4 see his wife to tell her about their son's death?

5 A. I said what happened. As for his own statement, ask Mr. Skocko

6 about it. I know what I know. I know what happened, and what he stated,

7 that I don't know.

8 Q. So it is your assertion that he was with you at the shop until

9 11.30 and that together, on the 6th of December, you set out from the shop

10 via Stradun to your homes.

11 A. No. I'm saying that Mr. Skocko came to the shop from the

12 hospital. Now, I don't know exactly whether we went together after that,

13 whether it was half an hour sooner or later, but we left the shop more or

14 less around the same time.

15 Q. A few minutes ago you said you left the shop together.

16 A. I said that I can't remember. Perhaps he left a bit earlier,

17 perhaps we left together.

18 Q. Tell me, do you have any medical documents related to the

19 scratches on your chin and leg?

20 A. I had some from the regional doctor, but now I don't know where it

21 is. I didn't need it. Perhaps it's been mislaid somewhere. Perhaps it's

22 still in the house. I don't know. I never needed it for anything.

23 Q. Tell me, do you have a military ID, military booklet?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In your military booklet, do you have the duration of your

Page 3044

1 participation in the war; to, from?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you know which period was entered exactly?

4 A. I think it was from the 23rd. From the 23rd -- no. Around the

5 20th of February 2002 and until mid 2003. I don't know exactly.

6 Q. That is last year and the year before last.

7 A. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I misspoke. It was 1992. I'm sorry.

8 Q. And are there any entries from 1991 in your military service

9 booklet?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Do you have the booklet here with you?

12 A. No, I don't.

13 Q. Do you have it in Dubrovnik?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could you provide a copy to the Court, to the Trial Chamber, of

16 your military service booklet with this information?

17 A. Yes, no problem.

18 Q. Finally, can I ask you the following question: You said that you

19 carried food in mess tins.

20 A. They're carried on the back, too, and I don't exactly know what

21 the word for such tins is.

22 Q. But you did see such mess tins when you were in the army, didn't

23 you?

24 A. Well, like that or something similar. All of it's the same

25 basically.

Page 3045

1 Q. Did you know how many food rations you were supposed to carry?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Who gave you the exact number of rations that were supposed to be

4 carried to Srdj?

5 A. We didn't carry any rations. We carried three or four of these

6 mess tins and two or three sacks of bread, and that was all we had.

7 Q. But who gave you this exact amount that you then carried?

8 A. The van that brought this in.

9 Q. Was this a military van?

10 A. It was a civilian van, but it was driven by a military man.

11 Q. What about the soldiers who were at Srdj? Were they given

12 information that you were coming in, that you shouldn't be shot at?

13 A. I don't know about that.

14 Q. Wouldn't it have been risky for you to go there, especially on

15 foot, without having the soldiers at Srdj informed about who was coming?

16 A. Well, probably, but I don't know whether they were informed or

17 not.

18 Q. Were -- were any of you who went up there armed?

19 A. There was one soldier.

20 Q. What did -- what did he have?

21 A. An ordinary rifle.

22 Q. Was he uniformed?

23 A. He had boots and the military JNA jacket. A shirt and a jacket.

24 Q. Was he there to secure you or to escort you up there?

25 A. Well, he went in front of us.

Page 3046

1 Q. Did he also return with you?

2 A. I don't remember. I don't think he did.

3 Q. How long did you stay up there?

4 A. We just left the things there and returned. That was it.

5 Q. Can you tell me where exactly you deposited your load?

6 A. At the entrance to the Srdj fort from the lower side.

7 Q. Did you see any soldiers up there at Srdj?

8 A. No, we didn't, because we didn't go in. We didn't go inside.

9 Q. Were there any soldiers there at all?

10 A. Well, I don't know that. Probably there were when we were

11 carrying food up there.

12 Q. I thank you, Mr. Jovic.

13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have finished my

14 cross-examination. Thank you.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Rodic.

16 Mr. Re, is there any re-examination?

17 MR. RE: There is. Thank you, Your Honour

18 Re-examined by Mr. Re:

19 Q. Mr. Jovic, Mr. Rodic asked you about where Mr. Tonci Skocko lived,

20 and you said it was in Zlatni Potok. Where is Zlatni Potok? Is it in the

21 Old Town?

22 A. Zlatni Potok is to the east or south-east of the Old Town towards

23 the Hotel Belvedere, from the Ploce Gate [as interpreted] towards the

24 Hotel Belvedere.

25 Q. How far is it from the Old Town?

Page 3047

1 A. Well, perhaps two kilometres.

2 Q. Yesterday, Mr. Rodic asked you about an assignment you had in the

3 Territorial Defence. This is at page 35 of yesterday's transcript. The

4 question was: "And what particular assignment did you have in the

5 Territorial Defence?" To which your answer was: "It was the same thing

6 as the training I had received in the army, which is the -- an operator of

7 Maljutkas." Question: "In the period from 1983 to 1991, did you

8 participate in any military exercises as a reservist?" Answer: "No, I

9 did not," and so on.

10 Your evidence the day before, or your evidence earlier was of

11 doing your JNA military training in Kosovo in 1982 and 1983 and

12 specifically on Maljutkas artillery. What level of or what type of skills

13 are required for a person to operate a Maljutka missile?

14 A. Well, we and the then-JNA, some were members of crews and some had

15 been trained to become operators to be able to guide a missile to its

16 target. It was a guided missile. So that this training took some five or

17 six months. We used simulators for the training.

18 Q. How specialised was the training to operate Maljutka wire-guided

19 missiles?

20 A. I'm sorry, I didn't quite get the question.

21 Q. The question is about the specialisation required to operate a

22 Maljutka wire-guided missile. How -- what level of specialisation is

23 required to learn to operate one as opposed to other missiles?

24 A. Well, I don't know. I was trained to operate the Maljutka. What

25 the specialisation level was, this is something that the military

Page 3048

1 authorities had determined themselves, namely whether a person was capable

2 of being thus trained or not.

3 Q. Do you know how the training to operate Maljutkas differed from

4 training to operate other types of missiles you may have encountered in

5 your JNA training? When I say "missiles," I also mean projectiles,

6 shells, mortars of the like.

7 A. Yes. The Maljutka was a missile, an anti-tank -- an anti-armour,

8 rather, missile which was a guided one which was manually guided towards

9 its target so that we had to be trained in this guidance of that missile

10 using the simulators provided to us by the army.

11 Q. And how did that differ from the training to operate other types

12 of mortars or missiles or shells?

13 A. Well, it's a completely different type of training, because

14 mortars probably also involve practical drills, practical exercises. I

15 don't really know. But we exclusively used these electric simulators for

16 training.

17 Q. Did you ever use live ammunition in your training in the JNA or in

18 your several exercises as a reservist?

19 A. Well, while I was serving the JNA, we only had one exercise where

20 this live ammunition where all the 50 of us who had completed this

21 training, all the -- of the 50 of us who had completed this training, only

22 two had actually fired the rocket. But later when I was in the

23 Territorial Defence, I never even saw this missile. We only used these

24 simulators in the military facilities or the barracks in Trebinje.

25 Q. And what did you learn in your training about the cost of

Page 3049

1 Maljutkas relative to that of other projectiles used by the JNA?

2 A. Well, I really don't know the actual cost, but they did say that

3 the Maljutkas were much more expensive than these other projectiles. That

4 is what they said to us then.

5 Q. Yesterday in cross-examination, you were describing to Mr. Rodic a

6 flag with an emblem that had been displayed on certain buildings, and your

7 answer was: "It went like this and it went like that and it says Monument

8 of Culture in the middle." At that point you were drawing with your hands

9 something on the table in front of you. I'm going to ask you to draw a

10 picture of what you saw on the banners hanging from buildings.

11 MR. RE: Can the witness please be given a piece of paper.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a white flag inside --

13 banner. Inside was this arrow, and on it was written "Monument of

14 Culture."

15 MR. RE:

16 Q. Do you remember what colour the writing and the arrow was?

17 A. It was either blue or black. I can't remember now.

18 Q. Can you just put the date on the bottom and please sign your name

19 on the bottom of that piece of paper. It's the 24th of February, 2004.

20 MR. RE: May that be tendered into evidence.

21 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] May we, Your Honour, see the drawing

22 on the ELMO before that, because we didn't have an occasion to.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Rodic.

24 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

Page 3050

1 MR. RE:

2 Q. And finally, Mr. Jovic, Mr. Rodic asked you this morning --

3 MR. RE: I'm sorry. I'm waiting an exhibit number. I think I

4 might have jumped in.

5 JUDGE PARKER: I was too slow, Mr. Re.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P76.

7 MR. RE:

8 Q. Mr. Rodic asked you this morning whether you had any medical

9 records relating to the injuries you received on the 6th of December,

10 1991. You said you couldn't find them at home. Have you made any

11 attempts to obtain those records from the clinic where you were treated in

12 Dubrovnik?

13 A. A few days before my departure for The Hague, when a lady from the

14 Tribunal called me and asked me whether I had any documentation - this

15 could have been some two days before my trip - I looked for it so -- and I

16 couldn't find anything at home. I went to the health centre, they

17 couldn't find anything either. And I can try when I go back, when I get

18 back, and to find it and fax it here.

19 MR. RE: That's the re-examination, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Jovic, for your time that

21 you've spent here and your assistance, and I am pleased to be able to tell

22 you are now free to go.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Re, was there left from Friday night the

Page 3051

1 question of tendering some exhibits?

2 MR. RE: Ms. Somers can deal with it.

3 JUDGE PARKER: You're going to give up the job, are you?

4 MS. SOMERS: Giving it up to the boss. Thank you, Your Honour.

5 In fact there was raised the photographs from the autopsy, and Mr. Rodic

6 very generously said he was no longer going to object and we were just

7 going to handle the process at the beginning of this week's sessions.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Is it convenient to do it now?

9 MR. RE: Yes. I thank Ms. Somers for reminding me of that. It

10 certainly is convenient. I formally offer into evidence the photographs,

11 the two photographs of the autopsies, the bodies of Mr. Tonci Skocko and

12 Mr. Pavo Urban. And also MFI 70, which is the autopsy report of the 7th

13 of December, 1991, in respect of which Dr. Ciganovic testified. Those are

14 the three exhibits I offer into evidence. MFI --

15 JUDGE PARKER: Did the photograph of Mr. Urban become Exhibit P71?

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the two photographs were marked for

17 identification respectively P71 and P72, and the report was marked for

18 identification MFI P70.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Well, in view of the position that was indicated on

20 Friday evening, those three documents which are presently marked for

21 identification will become exhibits with the same number.

22 Is that all of those?

23 MR. RE: That is the three, yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Now, I did indicate on Friday evening

25 that it would be convenient to deal with the legal argument at the end of

Page 3052

1 this witness, but this witness took quite a bit longer than anticipated.

2 I'm conscious of the delays with witnesses. Would it be more convenient

3 to hear the next witness before going back to that legal argument?

4 MR. KAUFMAN: Indeed it would, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a problem for you, Mr. Petrovic?

6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, it isn't, Your Honour. Thank

7 you.

8 JUDGE PARKER: I think we might follow that course then,

9 Mr. Kaufman.

10 MR. KAUFMAN: I would ask Ms. Usher to usher in Mr. Djelo Jusic.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, sir. I wonder whether you would be

13 kind enough to take that card in your hand and read the affirmation.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wish all of you a good morning,

15 and I will be more than pleased to read this out.

16 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

17 and nothing but the truth.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Would you be seated.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Kaufman.

22 MR. KAUFMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Examined by Mr. Kaufman:

24 Q. Good morning, sir. If you could state your name, please, your

25 full name, for the record.

Page 3053












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3054

1 A. I am Djelo Jusic, born in Dubrovnik in 1939.

2 Q. And your present address, please.

3 A. Lazarina number 3, Dubrovnik.

4 Q. And perhaps you could tell us your religion.

5 A. Islam.

6 Q. Now, sir, your current occupation, as even Mr. Rodic knows,

7 because I know he's waiting for your evidence, is composer and conductor.

8 Could you enlighten us to a few details about your career, what you're

9 presently doing --

10 A. Yes, that is true.

11 Q. So your present position?

12 A. Officially I'm the conductor of the Dubrovnik Symphony Orchestra.

13 I write music all the time, either for children or for the Symphony

14 Orchestra. I write oratoria, pop music, musicals, and so on.

15 Q. Is your musical activity confined to Dubrovnik? Do you have a

16 more international appeal?

17 A. My music, well, I published more than 5.000 minutes of my music.

18 My music is performed in New York, Vienna, Belgrade. In Montenegro I hear

19 it over the radio, that they play my music. In Croatia, then London,

20 Paris, Moscow, Milan, Rome, Dubrovnik, Zagreb. Before the war, I was a

21 very popular musician, especially with my orchestra, The Troubadours of

22 Dubrovnik, and particularly in Belgrade.

23 Q. Well, we'll get to Belgrade in a minute, sir, but I believe you've

24 had the honour of having your music played in the Vatican; is that

25 correct?

Page 3055

1 A. Yes, in 1992 during the worst attack against Dubrovnik -- well,

2 actually, I should say that I have this small children's choir in

3 Dubrovnik called The Small Singing Dubrovnik, and I was invited in 1992 to

4 Vatican, we were received by the Holy Father, and we performed my music.

5 I conducted the choir.

6 Q. Has your music ever been played in Belgrade, sir?

7 A. Countless number of times. I was very popular in Belgrade. I

8 even won a few prizes at festivals in Belgrade. And with my orchestra,

9 The Troubadours of Dubrovnik, I toured Serbia and Montenegro countless

10 number of times. Our popularity was truly great. I recorded a few LPs in

11 Belgrade. I had solo concerts at the big trade union hall in Belgrade. I

12 actually published five LP records with the Belgrade company RTB.

13 Q. Sir, in 1991, the start of 1991, where were you living?

14 A. Until 1990 I lived in Zagreb for about 15 years because Zagreb is

15 a big cultural centre where there are studios, where there are concert

16 halls, and that's what I missed in Dubrovnik. But I also did my

17 recordings in Skopje, Macedonia, then in Belgrade, then in Zagreb,

18 Ljubljana, and many European cities at the same time.

19 Q. Now, at a certain stage, sir, you left Zagreb. Where did you go

20 when you left Zagreb, and when was that?

21 A. When I felt that there was political turbulence in my former

22 country, I felt that there was danger looming over my hometown of

23 Dubrovnik, so I went back. My music is related to Dubrovnik. I simply

24 had to be there. I had to defend the town. I had many friends throughout

25 our former country, and I believed that they would not touch Dubrovnik.

Page 3056

1 Perhaps I was a bit conceited. I said at least because of me they would

2 not do anything bad.

3 Q. So that's what you meant by defence, is it, artistic defence?

4 A. Absolutely, because muses should never fall silent.

5 Q. Sir, when did you actually arrive in Dubrovnik in 1991?

6 A. In the spring. In the spring.

7 Q. And the address where you set up home?

8 A. Lazarina number 3, as you told you awhile ago. That's where I

9 have my own apartment, and I moved into that apartment in 1973.

10 Q. I'm going to ask Mr. Usher to place a map on the ELMO for you.

11 And I would request that you point out where your house is in relation to

12 the Old Town. This will have significance as we proceed and hear your

13 evidence. I have small maps of the map.

14 Ms. Usher, if you could hand this out.

15 A. This is the Old Town of Dubrovnik -- may I speak now? May I?

16 Q. Yes, sir. If we could move the map slightly up so we could see

17 the Old Town, and maybe reduce the picture. Zoom out, as it were.

18 A. This is the Old Town.

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. This is the Excelsior Hotel. Above the Hotel Excelsior is my

21 apartment, and there is a panorama of the island of Lokrum and the entire

22 town from my apartment.

23 Q. Sir, please take a blue pen - which is positioned to the side -

24 mark with the letter A the approximate position of your house.

25 A. Here.

Page 3057

1 Q. Now, sir, mark with the letter B Zarkovica.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Thank you, sir. If we could put that aside.

4 MR. KAUFMAN: Might I request that to be tendered into evidence?

5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, it will be received.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P77.


8 Q. Sir, you talked about moving to Dubrovnik. Did any other people

9 move to Dubrovnik apart from yourself, any other particular category of

10 persons?

11 A. I didn't know about that. Actually, people were surprised why I

12 had come to Dubrovnik, because many people were leaving.

13 Q. To the Old Town of Dubrovnik did people move?

14 A. People were not moving in. They were fleeing in panic when the

15 attacks against Croatia started from the direction of Konavle, to be

16 precise, and also Molunat, Cavtat. They were fleeing. They were seeking

17 shelter in the hotels of Dubrovnik.

18 Q. Did they seek shelter in any other places, sir?

19 A. They sought shelter in the Dubrovnik fortresses; for example, St.

20 Ivan, Revelin, Minceta, the Rupe museum. Some were even staying at

21 monasteries and churches.

22 Q. So what you're saying is that people sought shelter in the Old

23 Town essentially, as well as the hotels that you mentioned.

24 Q. Do you know --

25 A. Not only in the Old Town. There's a peninsula called Babin Kuk on

Page 3058

1 the western side, then there is the Hotel Palace, President, Argos,

2 Minceta. Those are the hotels at Babin Kuk. That's where people sought

3 shelter as well as at the Libertas Hotel, the Lero Hotel, the Petka Hotel.

4 That would be about it. Those were the hotels where people sought

5 shelter.

6 Q. Do you have an approximate estimate, sir, for the number of people

7 who were seeking shelter in the Old Town -- in the shelters in the Old

8 Town that you mentioned? If you don't, say, "I don't."

9 A. Well, I think that definitely the entire population of Konavle

10 left and sought shelter there. They left their homes and they moved

11 within the Old City walls or those hotels that were outside the Old City.

12 Q. Let us move on to the month of October. Now, from your balcony

13 and from your forays into the Old Town, what happened to the Old Town in

14 the month of October?

15 A. Well, one morning around 5.00 -- we in Dubrovnik - I have to say

16 this - are very fearful of earthquakes because this an earthquake-prone

17 area. However, what we heard then was something new, something different,

18 a different sound. So people were fleeing from their houses

19 panic-stricken. And then we realised that some shells were falling. They

20 were coming from the north-east. Not of the east but the north-east, from

21 the behind the hills near my home, near the Old City. And that's when

22 these boats, I think they are called gunboats, opened fire too. They were

23 there near Dubrovnik. These were warships, and they had been there for a

24 while.

25 Q. And that, as you say, is at the beginning of the month of October.

Page 3059

1 You were awoken early in the morning -- yes, sir, please continue.

2 A. I think it was sometime in mid-October. I cannot give you the

3 exact date, but around that time. People were panic-stricken, fleeing to

4 shelters, and everybody thought it would be only that one morning or

5 perhaps a day or two, but it went on.

6 Q. I'd like to turn your attention to the Old Town in the month of

7 October. Are you aware of anything happening to the Old Town in the month

8 of October as a result of this shelling that you mentioned?

9 A. In the Old Town, the inhabitants of Dubrovnik thought that since

10 Dubrovnik was an old town and it was part of UNESCO Heritage, and people,

11 sensible people, of course, thought that nothing would fall on the Old

12 Town and there would be no shooting there. However, one day a shell fell

13 into Boskoviceva Street and it broke a very old balcony because it hit

14 straight into the house. I think it was on that day or the next day that

15 15 ambassadors came. They came by boat from Cavtat. They probably flew

16 into Cavtat. They came to see whether it was possible at all that

17 somebody actually had fired at the Old Town of Dubrovnik that was part of

18 UNESCO Heritage.

19 Q. Sir, how did you know about this visiting party of ambassadors?

20 A. Well, some of us who were careless enough left our homes, and we

21 strolled about town. They were escorted by the JNA, the Yugoslav army.

22 Then Mr. Hrvoje Kacic, a diplomat from Dubrovnik, was there and he told me

23 who these people were. Then also I recognised some of them. The Italian

24 had a very typical cap with that little feather on it. There were about

25 ten or so other citizens who were watching this, and they couldn't believe

Page 3060

1 their own eyes. We thought that this was a stray bullet or a stray shell,

2 whatever it was.

3 Q. Before we leave the month of October, I'd like to ask you about

4 the status of the Dubrovnik infrastructure in that month. Electricity and

5 water; what can you tell us about that?

6 A. For centuries, Dubrovnik has had this water supply. So water and

7 electricity were never a problem in Dubrovnik. However, either during

8 this first attack or during a following attack, it was the power plant

9 that supplies Dubrovnik with electricity was destroyed, and of course

10 there was no electricity, naturally, and then there was no water either.

11 When there was no water, people were in panic, and they started buying

12 food supplies. So Dubrovnik was emptied. It was an unhappy town, feeling

13 shame and disgrace, and people really started thinking about this.

14 Q. Now, sir, in the minutes before the morning interval -- we're

15 going to show a video that you filmed, but in the minutes before the

16 interval, perhaps we could clarify how it came about that you videotaped

17 the goings-on in the town of Dubrovnik in the month of November and

18 December. You have a video camera, sir?

19 A. Yes, but before that I would like to mention a particular piece of

20 information that I find interesting and most regrettable. The first shell

21 that was fired from this gunboat hit a house in my neighbourhood 50 metres

22 away from my house, and this is where a great poet of Dubrovnik got

23 killed, a personal friend of mine, an ethnic Serb. His name is Milan

24 Milisic. He was very well liked and he was a popular writer. I think

25 that at the time he was employed at the Marin Drzic Theatre in Dubrovnik.

Page 3061

1 I have a Panasonic MD7 camera. I think that's the make. I got it

2 in the 1980s because I have three children and six grandchildren, so I

3 needed it, and also the most beautiful ships in the world come to the

4 harbour of Dubrovnik, so I enjoyed taking pictures of that too. So it was

5 my hobby.

6 I started doing this for a very naive reason. Actually in 1991,

7 in the summer, the Yutel team came to Dubrovnik, although their

8 headquarters by then were in Sarajevo. So they wanted to record a film

9 about me and my life and work. However, in October or November, they

10 called me from Sarajevo, and they asked me the following: "We know where

11 you live. Can you tell us the truth? Because Belgrade says that you are

12 setting fire to tyres in Dubrovnik in order to pretend that you're being

13 attacked, whereas Zagreb says that you actually are under attack." I

14 spoke as a reporter on the news programme of Yutel then, but then all of a

15 sudden I thought of actually recording this from my balcony because you

16 can see the entire Panorama of Dubrovnik there, that is to say the sea and

17 the island and everything.

18 Q. Sir, you, as we will later see, videotaped some of the events in

19 November and December.

20 A. It was very important for me that I recorded these first moments

21 and also later on. I wanted the world to know about this. In the

22 Libertas Hotel in Dubrovnik, there was an office of Zagreb television,

23 Croatian television. So I gave these recordings to them, and then this

24 footage was sent further on into the world, CNN, Sky News, and other major

25 TV stations telecast this. So this was the first recording of what was

Page 3062

1 actually happening in Dubrovnik that was shown throughout the world.

2 Q. Sir, do you remember exactly what there is on the film, the video

3 film that we will be showing to the Court in due course?

4 A. For example, there is one particular clip that received many

5 compliments throughout the world. Since they had already started

6 shooting, we thought that they would not touch the Old Town itself out of

7 respect for it. So then people, for example, brought their cars to the

8 Old City of Dubrovnik. And a man drove his new car, a Mazda, I think it

9 was, into the Old City port. So then I had this really interesting

10 footage.

11 All of a sudden we started learning all these new words, Maljutka,

12 shells, words that we didn't use in our lives before that. And then this

13 Maljutka hit the car, and then the car flew into the air. If that is the

14 footage that you're going to play, that's what we're going to see. It's

15 one of the first things recorded.

16 MR. KAUFMAN: Now, perhaps, Your Honours, this might be a

17 convenient point to break, because we will see the video in due course,

18 and what I will ask the witness to do is to give us a running commentary

19 of the film as it progresses. He will stop the film when he feels there

20 is a need to expand upon what is seen in the film.

21 JUDGE PARKER: In that case, then, Mr. Kaufman, I think we will

22 have our morning break now and then return for the viewing of the film.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Kaufman.

Page 3063


2 Q. Mr. Jusic, a few more clarificatory questions before we get into

3 the video. Did you film this footage that we're about to see or did

4 anyone else help you?

5 A. Everything that we're going to view on this topic I did myself.

6 Q. And you handed this video that we're about to see to the

7 investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor?

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 Q. Thank you. Sir, you mentioned doing some filming in the month of

10 November. Let's start the film and see what happened in the month of

11 November.

12 [Videotape played]


14 Q. Now, sir, that's your balcony, isn't it?

15 A. This is -- no. The balcony is in the next clip. This is an

16 overview above my flat. Stop for a minute. You can see the number of

17 boats that we have in our city harbour. There are hundreds of them. Over

18 the next ten days, 80 per cent of these boats had burnt on account of the

19 shells, which was a tragedy for the citizens of Dubrovnik, because

20 Dubrovnik citizens are very close to the sea, and I know this because of

21 the way I felt. This here is my -- where my boat was, and when this

22 happened, I said dear God, let anything happen, but do not let my boat

23 sink.

24 Can we go on.

25 Q. Before we go on, if you can have a look to where the arrow is

Page 3064

1 pointing. What do we see here?

2 A. I can't see the arrow -- oh, yes, I can. This is where the car

3 was which would get hit in the next minute, and a huge chunk of which

4 would then fly up to this bell tower, the top of the belfry. You will be

5 able to see that.

6 Here we have ships, boats, actually, that were all burnt down in

7 later attacks. These are all tourist and fishing boats, private small

8 boats people use for their own enjoyment.

9 Q. Now, sir, please continue watching, and I will stop the video in a

10 minute.

11 [Videotape played]


13 Q. Now, we have a transcript prepared of what was exactly said there

14 and we will submit that to the Court in due course. Perhaps you can tell

15 us what you were commenting on there.

16 A. Well, the first voice which you heard is my voice, and the second

17 one is Mr. Luksa, a neighbour of mine, who was a very jovial chap, and he

18 was -- he liked his drink. And he said that the enemy were drunk and that

19 they were perhaps shooting because they were drunk. At the time, it was

20 quite witty, but a bit later we didn't find it that funny at all.

21 Q. Now, before the break, sir, you mentioned the new argot that you

22 had been learning at that time, terms such as Maljutkas. You also are a

23 musician and know a bit about acoustics, so perhaps you can tell us what

24 type of ordnance this was, from your own perspective.

25 A. Well, it was the first time I heard about the term Maljutka,

Page 3065












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3066

1 150-millimetre shell, or a machine-gun of 80, but we saw some threads,

2 some traces, and they told us that this Maljutka was being guided like a

3 children's toy and that this was done by a screen so that it could target

4 with precision its desired target, and that is when I found out that its

5 name was Maljutka.

6 Q. Thank you, sir. We're going to move the video on slightly, and

7 this is about a minute into your video film, still in the month of

8 November, as you say. Please watch the screen.

9 [Videotape played]

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop. This is the car that was

11 blown up, which actually flew into the air, rather. And I'm really proud

12 as a little boy for having taken this recording.


14 Q. Yes, that is dramatic. Now, that's the one from November. There

15 are two further days which appear on this video. Can you tell the Court

16 which days those are.

17 A. There was already too much excitement for me to actually jot down

18 the date on the screen. What my objective was to turn the camera on and

19 to indeed record this, and of course to get away from the place as soon as

20 possible, because at the very next minute, you can hear also that there

21 was shooting from some quarter and that the shell actually whizzed right

22 by me or in front of my face towards the Old Town.

23 I was quite calm when I was recording this, but when I looked at

24 these recordings a year ago, I was really scared out of my wits because of

25 how courageous I had been.

Page 3067

1 Q. Sir, we will now move to the month of December. We will continue

2 with your video later. Before we do that, let's do things

3 chronologically, and I would like to take you to the 5th of December.

4 The 5th of December, being a musician, was a very special day for

5 you, wasn't it, 1991?

6 A. On the 5th of December, 1991, all the cultural world - I'm talking

7 about the whole planet - was marking the 200th anniversary of Mozart's

8 death. So I and my friends organised a concert and to honour him and of

9 course to perform Mozart's music, and this was held in the Dubrovnik

10 cathedral. This was about 11 a.m. because it couldn't be performed in the

11 evening because of the curfew that had had already been imposed there was

12 no power, to we had to perform at a time of day when one could best read

13 the sheet scores of music. Of course, word came out about this because

14 Radio Dubrovnik had also announced that the Dubrovnik musicians would be

15 marking Mozart's anniversary and as Radio Dubrovnik can also be heard in

16 Montenegro as well as in Trogir, everybody could hear about this date. So

17 that sometime around 7.00 in the morning, right here behind my back you

18 can see the hill of Bosanka and Zarkovica. They brought a loud public

19 address system there, a very loud one, and they played traditional war --

20 Serbian songs accompanied by the traditional gusle instrument. This

21 echoed, reverberated all around Dubrovnik and the Elafiti islands. The

22 idea was to disrupt our marking of Mozart's anniversary, and perhaps there

23 was another message there as well.

24 Q. Did it disrupt the performance of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart's music?

25 A. It absolutely did disrupt, but people commented that anyway, this

Page 3068

1 is where the difference lay between us, between these peoples, that this

2 was where the line of distinction was so that -- we were Mozart and they

3 were a gusle. Of course, I have nothing against a gusle, let everybody

4 play what they like, but as a musician, I feel that nobody should

5 interfere with other people's business and let us all rejoice in our own.

6 Q. Let's move to the 6th of December. What time did you wake up on

7 the 6th of December?

8 A. About 5.15, 5.20 in the morning. There was this great fracas.

9 Something started and we thought that the shelling at that time was the

10 heaviest. However, at that time there was a fortissimo from all

11 instruments blaring out, not only at the outskirts of town but also at the

12 very centre, the core of the city, and that was the famous 6th of December

13 when Dubrovnik was devastated, degraded, when hundred year old palaces and

14 churches were demolished, when archives were torn down, archives housing,

15 inter alia, documents of the great Serbian Empire, its Tsar Dusan and the

16 Nemanjic dynasty. At least for those reasons I find it hard to understand

17 why they opened fire at the one-thousand-year-old archives of Dubrovnik.

18 Q. You've used the term in the transcript, sir, "the core of the

19 city." By that do you mean the Old Town?

20 A. When I speak, I can speak about the part which is within the

21 ramparts. That is the Old Town, that was where I went, inside from

22 rampart to rampart. I never went outside so that I have no information

23 about what was going on outside the walls. I can, however, assert that

24 for countless times I was in the Old City in the right place at the right

25 time.

Page 3069

1 Q. You talked about a fortissimo of instruments in the morning. Now,

2 by "instruments" I know you're a musician, sir, but what do you mean by

3 the word "instruments"?

4 A. Of course musical designations forte, fortissimo and forte

5 fortissimo with the -- forte fortissimo is too strong and forte forte

6 fortissimo is the strongest, which is actually the very limits that a

7 human ear can consume.

8 Q. And by "instruments" you mean?

9 A. Of course this is something which is beautiful in music, but what

10 I mean, I'm saying -- I mean mortars and cannon and the overflying

11 aircraft. That is what I meant by using this term. The only thing which

12 should have happened was for something to come out from the earth, but

13 that didn't happen, fortunately.

14 Now, talking in musical terms, for instance, if a shell in

15 Dubrovnik had between 15 or 20 reverberations so that at the moment of

16 impact you couldn't actually tell if it had fallen in this or that

17 particular spot or place because of these echoing, there was a sort of

18 cacophony, as it is called, and it was mayhem. It's a wonder that not

19 many people went crazy because of the -- everything which was going on and

20 the flying shrapnel and whatchamacallit.

21 There was a lot of to'ing and fro'ing, people running about,

22 seeking shelter, seeking places to hide. We were not exactly sure what

23 was going on but we knew that there was shelling and one could see that

24 there was shelling from the east side.

25 Q. Can you talk about the intensity of the shelling on the 6th of

Page 3070

1 December? Did you --

2 A. This one single attack started immediately with this fortissimo

3 fortissimo intensity so that, as far as one could tell by hearing, there

4 was shooting from behind and from the Bosanka Zarkovica hills, and there

5 was this terrible sound coming from the direction of Cavtat, from the left

6 side where the Dubrovnik airport is, and then there were also battleships,

7 gunboats that were opening fire, but not -- they didn't remain in a single

8 spot. They kept cruising. They kept moving and opening fire, and you can

9 see that. You will be able to see that on the film, on the footage.

10 Q. Now, what I'm talking about is the 6th --

11 A. I'm sorry, but I have to add, since Dubrovnik is a city under

12 UNESCO protection, in lots of places it had very important palaces and

13 mansions, and houses, libraries flying UNESCO flags, and one had the

14 impression that they were opening fire at precisely those places flying

15 such flags as their desired targets, and it is precisely those buildings

16 that sustained the most damage.

17 Q. Sir, in due course we will see those flags. We have a lot to get

18 through, so if we could perhaps ask you to make your answers concise.

19 Now, sir you talked about a fortissimo. Now, was there, in

20 musical terms let me put it, a diminuendo in the shelling at any time on

21 that day, a lessening of intensity?

22 A. Well, you see, in music terms, nobody was enjoying this music.

23 People had to flee for dear life. And I myself was also hidden and

24 perhaps I couldn't hear everything properly, but it is a fact that this

25 lasted from 5.15 until about 5.15 in the evening. So there was a

Page 3071

1 continuous process with ups and downs, shall we put it, but I didn't have

2 the concentration to listen to it voluntarily. I was forced to listen to

3 it, but I certainly did not enjoy it.

4 Q. Did you witness the shelling of the Old Town until 5.15 from your

5 house or from somewhere else?

6 A. Well, we're now about to see the part of the footage which is the

7 most important of all, precisely this attack on the 5th [as interpreted].

8 I recorded until perhaps midday or 1.00, until my battery ran out. But I

9 remember definitely that it lasted until 5.00 or 5.30. And I'm sure that

10 it lasted that much. I would like to concentrate on the movie, because it

11 is self-explanatory. It tells it all.

12 Q. Sir, we will get to the movie in a moment, but you said the attack

13 on the 5th. Now, you were conducting Mozart on the 5th. Did the attack

14 take place on the 5th or on another day?

15 A. No. The attack was the -- the main attack was on the 6th of

16 December, but the 5th was Mozart as an overture to this eroica, shall we

17 say.

18 Q. Thank you, sir, because the transcript read something else.

19 That's why I asked to correct you.

20 Now, if we can actually return to your video. I'm not actually

21 going to show you the 6th. I'm going to take you to the day after. The

22 full video will be presented to Their Honours and they will have a full

23 opportunity to see everything that is contained and everything that

24 happened on the 6th insofar as it was filmed by you, but I would like to

25 take you to the day after, the 7th of December. I would like you to tell

Page 3072

1 us what you did on the 7th of December.

2 A. As the curfew was lifted on the 6th of December which had been on

3 in Dubrovnik for months before that, one couldn't leave, go outside after

4 9.00 in the evening, so on the 6th it was lifted, and of course it was

5 lifted also on the next day. So in the morning on the 7th, I went towards

6 the city with my camera on, recording what I thought ought to be recorded,

7 was important enough to be recorded.

8 Q. So let us indeed turn to the video. Now, this is found at

9 approximately 13 minutes -- 13 minutes 37. I'll get my assistant and

10 colleague Ms. McCreath to find the relevant part on the video.

11 [Videotape played]

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I don't have it -- oh,

13 yes, I do have it.

14 Please stop now. We are in the Old Town, and we are below the

15 Dominican cloister, and up this wall is the central part of the church,

16 the altar, et cetera. Here there is a shell which is at least one metre

17 long which I could see later after they had pulled it out. It hit the

18 area underneath the church, but it did not explode. It actually was

19 lodged in the stone, and one could only imagine what would have happened

20 had it exploded.

21 So this is on the east side of the Dominican Monastery's church.


23 Q. At this stage, sir, before we continue, I'm going to ask for a map

24 to be placed in front of you. We will hopefully track your course through

25 the Old Town on this morning, the morning of the 7th of December. If you

Page 3073

1 would kindly indicate with the blue pen that will be provided to you your

2 course on that day. So if perhaps you could put a small letter A by the

3 first point you've indicated, the place to the side of the Dominican

4 Monastery where you discovered that shell.

5 A. On this side, of course.

6 Q. Okay. Did you write a little A there, sir?

7 A. Near the church, you mean. Where I started, where I set out?

8 Q. Yes. And put a little A by the place you found the unexploded

9 ordnance, as you say. A tiny little A.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Okay. Now, let us continue. Once again if you could look at your

12 monitor now, and when you feel that there's a need to stop to expand upon

13 what we're seeing here, please indicate by saying "Stop." I might find

14 the need to also stop the video and ask you a few questions. Please try

15 and indicate, sir, as many buildings as possible for the benefit of the

16 Court as you go through. Let us continue.

17 [Videotape played]

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here we are entering the Old Town,

19 as you can see. You can see the stones and the tiles that have fallen off

20 the roofs. Please stop at this point.

21 Here already after the first attacks the people of Dubrovnik

22 boarded up their monuments in order to protect them, but of course this

23 was really no protection to speak of for the -- against those shells.

24 This was the portico of a church built several hundred years ago. This is

25 exactly where the shell hit it. You can see the impact mark, the hole,

Page 3074

1 and we are now restoring this main portico to the Dominican church.

2 Thank you. We can move on.

3 [Videotape played]

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One citizen telling me to go into

5 another street to see the devastation there. Here we have some stone

6 because this is where a sculptor has his artistic studio. On the ground

7 you can see rubble.

8 Stop now, please. This building here, this is the library or,

9 rather, the Dubrovnik archives, several hundred years old, keeping

10 documents on all the countries of the former Balkans. And I failed to

11 comprehend why they opened fire at it. The roof also caved in -- rather,

12 fell down, and there are also visible traces of shell impact on it.

13 We can go on, thank you.


15 Q. Sir, before we do, could you perhaps provide an exact address for

16 that building, the archive?

17 A. I'll show it to you now. Here it is. Here is the wall. Here is

18 the building.

19 Q. Sir, on your map, with the blue pen that will be provided to you,

20 if you could mark the letter B by the Dubrovnik archive. We will follow

21 your path through the Old Town. A tiny little letter B, please.

22 A. Here it is.

23 Q. My learned colleague Mr. Re suggests that we might use a finer pen

24 than that. I thank him for that.

25 Let us continue, sir. Please look at the monitor.

Page 3075

1 [Videotape played]

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you stop for a moment here,

3 please. Later on, when we get into the main street, you will see -- or,

4 rather, you saw here that there is this yellow colour, this yellow marking

5 on the wall. Later on, we're going to see on a house that there is

6 something yellow like that too. And I asked an observer -- fine. Fine. I

7 remember that that's where the yellow appeared. So let's go on then.

8 [Videotape played]


10 Q. Sir, as we go through, perhaps you could say where we are.

11 A. Now we are entering the main street of Dubrovnik, the most famous

12 street in Dubrovnik, called Stradun. This is the port. Now we're

13 entering the main street.

14 Q. Sir, we will do that, but I see a pipe. If you could follow the

15 arrow. What is this?

16 A. This is a pipe, because the previous evening when Dubrovnik was on

17 fire, it was quite literally on fire because there was this strong wind

18 that was fanning the flames, there was a curfew because there was an

19 international SOS that had been declared. So our Minister Rudolf received

20 a promise from the side from where the shooting was coming from that there

21 would be a lull in the shooting for a while. Indeed on the 7th there was

22 no shooting in order to extinguish the fire in Dubrovnik. The firemen

23 brought these pipes. We had no water whatsoever. So this pipe leads to

24 the harbour and seawater was brought through those pipes.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 3076

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We see the Franciscan cloister here.

2 That was also hit. Then the festival building of Dubrovnik. You can see

3 the Church of St. Blaise that was hit here. Here is the UNESCO sign.

4 Could you just raise this up a bit so that you can see what is here on the

5 facade? Hundreds of years old. This is the Church of St. Blaise, St.

6 Blaise being the patron saint of Dubrovnik. This confirms my thesis that

7 that is precisely what was targeted, the places where the flags were.

8 Q. Sir, we will see that. Now, are you sure that's the UNESCO flag?

9 If you're not sure, just say, "I'm not sure."

10 A. No. That is the flag that shows the places that are protected. I

11 don't know whether it's called the UNESCO flag or something else, but I

12 know that that is the flag that shows that that is a protected area, and

13 it would be prohibited to devastate a place like that. I think it is

14 called the UNESCO flag, though.

15 Q. Well, perhaps that's a legal question and we'll leave that to the

16 lawyers. Let us continue.

17 [Videotape played]

18 A. See? See? This is the part that was destroyed here. That was

19 destroyed. That is where the shell fell, a metre and a half or perhaps

20 two metres below this flag that shows that this is a protected site. This

21 is the very heart of the city. This is the real centre of the city, quite

22 literally. This is where the big festival performances are held. This is

23 where the great festival of Dubrovnik is open. On the left hand is the

24 municipality, that is to say the main administrative building of

25 Dubrovnik. Now, I am where the archives are. It's about 50 metres away.

Page 3077












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3078

1 It's here. It is here. The number on the map is --

2 THE INTERPRETER: 13 or 30, the interpreter could not hear the

3 speaker.

4 [Videotape played]

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the very same place. Now we

6 are going to see a hole here to the right where a shell fell. There's

7 another one that's even bigger. A young photographer from Dubrovnik got

8 killed there. His name is Pavo Urban. I think this is a young man of 19

9 or 20. He was studying photography, and unfortunately, this was the last

10 picture he took here in Dubrovnik.


12 Q. Sir, did you actually witness the death of Pavo Urban with your

13 eyes?

14 A. No. Later on I saw photographs, and I heard what his mother had

15 to say. She lives there in the neighbourhood, so she saw her son being

16 killed with her very own eyes. A man ran up to him, but unfortunately he

17 could no longer be helped.

18 Q. So -- but what you're telling the Trial Chamber is on the basis of

19 what people have told you, not on the basis of what you have witnessed?

20 A. This is the footage I took, but I did not see the death of

21 Mr. Pavo Urban myself. However, his mother spoke about this on a

22 countless number of radio and TV programmes, and that's what she said.

23 Q. Okay. Let us move on. Before we do, perhaps you could put a

24 little C now in the fine pen in front of you by St. Blaise Church at the

25 point where the ordnance lay.

Page 3079

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Thank you. Now, if you could turn your attention back to the

3 monitor, we'll continue.

4 [Videotape played]

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see what people look like. They

6 look lost. You see all the shops are smashed up. Again there is this

7 UNESCO flag, this particular sign. This is the archives of Dubrovnik.

8 Now I'm going to move with the camera here, that it's going to

9 show the clock, the old clock, and you will see the time, twenty minutes

10 to twelve.

11 Q. And what is the significance of that time, sir?

12 A. The significance? We're going to see it in the next seconds, that

13 the town was quite empty, that people were still in shelters and that

14 there was still an alert in town and that there is only a few people who

15 are repairing things. There is a moment that is quite typical of

16 Dubrovnik. We will see the shops. We will see the city bank. We're

17 going to see the shops where there were shoes, there was jewellery there.

18 Nobody took a thing. There was no looting. Through that we can see the

19 culture and standard of living in Dubrovnik itself.

20 [Videotape played]

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here it is, the UN flag on fort

22 Minceta, the main fort. That is number 1 on this map.

23 Q. And that flag was flying on the day before, was it?

24 A. Yes, of course, of course. Yes. Many days before that too.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 3080

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The cars can be seen here, the cars

2 belonging to the local people. You can see me here. And since I did not

3 record the date, I'm going to ask him something to that effect now, like,

4 "What's the date today?"

5 This is the time when this street would be crowded before the war

6 and after the war, and now you see it quite empty at midday, and you can

7 see the atmosphere. This is the Franciscan cloister and its church. It

8 was hit too. It was hit from say Zarkovica, from the position of

9 Zarkovica, straight from there. It could not have been hit from anywhere

10 else but that position above Dubrovnik, Zarkovica. Again you can see the

11 Red Cross here. Again it was a marked place that was being targeted.

12 There was a place there called Domus Christus. That is where people

13 received aid, medicines, and also the oldest pharmacy in Europe is housed

14 there, perhaps one of the oldest pharmacies in Europe.

15 I'm sorry. On the right-hand side you can see the bank and also a

16 Maljutka. And it did not explode. It was there in the wall. Could you

17 please move this arrow a bit to the right. Yeah. There it is.

18 There was this thread-like thing hanging there, like made of nylon

19 or something.


21 Q. Now, sir, it's not too clear from that video whether or not we can

22 see the wire threads hanging there, but we take your word for it.

23 Could you tell us in which geographical direction, or which

24 geographical feature is directly opposite that hole?

25 A. The east, the east.

Page 3081

1 Q. And what do you have in the east, geographically speaking, if you

2 look at your map, you know the --

3 A. The letter A is in the east, and that is where we saw Zarkovica.

4 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, once again I will show you later on a

5 photograph of the cupola of that tower that you see in front of you. It's

6 not too visible from this angle. We'll leave that for a later stage, but

7 let's move on with your film for the time being.

8 [Videotape played]


10 Q. If you could keep your commentary going, sir, as you see fit.

11 A. I will tell you when there is something important. I'm looking

12 for the clock now. The clock should be up here. Yes, here it is. 11

13 hours, 40 minutes. It can be seen here. That is the Old City clock that

14 has been working for centuries now. It works today as well. It shows the

15 correct time.

16 Listen to the text. Question: "What is the date?" Answer: "The

17 7th of December." So you heard a person who told me what the date was,

18 the 7th of December, 1991.

19 The only being that was free to roam about. Listen to the sounds.

20 See? Everything is shattered. This is a well-known cafe and then a

21 pharmacy next to it.

22 People are trying to save what can be saved. This is Zudioska

23 Street, the street of the Jews. Could you stop here for a moment.

24 On the right-hand side is the street called Zudioska where one of

25 the oldest synagogues in Europe is. It was hit too. Unfortunately, I did

Page 3082

1 not record that, but I know it from the official information provided that

2 it had been hit too. Can we go on now.


4 Q. Yes. Before we do that, you talked about people protecting

5 whatever they had. Now, we're accustomed, from the news of world events,

6 that when tragedies take place of this nature, there is looting. Was

7 there any looting in Dubrovnik?

8 A. That's what I said a minute ago. You see here on the left-hand

9 side there is a young man who is a salesman in this shop, and he put some

10 wooden boards there. On the right-hand side is another citizen. There is

11 not a single case of looting that was registered or any devastation

12 whatsoever. So that is a characteristic of the citizens of Dubrovnik,

13 that they would not want to steal anything that is not their own.

14 [Videotape played]

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When Dubrovnik was repaired later

16 on, all these vaults were replaced by new ones because they were all

17 destroyed. We will see later on, on a facade, how stone was actually

18 melting because of the extreme heat. So all of this had to be redone.


20 Q. Sir, you --

21 A. This is a street where a young man was killed. This young man got

22 killed. There was a shop there called Mediator. He was killed by a

23 shrapnel that hit him straight in the heart. I think he was 18 or 19

24 years old. It was back in this street.

25 Q. Once again, sir, could you name that street? If you can't name

Page 3083

1 it --

2 A. It is the street of Miha Pracata, I think, and the young man's

3 name is Skocko, I believe.

4 Q. Sir, please with your fine blue pen, if you could mark with the

5 letter D the street as you are turning off the Stradun. Just put a D on

6 the corner of the Stradun and that particular street.

7 A. This is where he was killed, in this street.

8 Q. Thank you, sir. Let us continue.

9 [Videotape played]

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same story all over again.

11 People are putting these wooden boards up. This is Palmoticeva Street. I

12 used to live in that street before, and on the corner there is a bank, you

13 see, and nobody's touched the bank. There is no one at the bank. Like in

14 any bank, there would have to be lots of money there.

15 So the same old story repeating itself yet again. Now we're going

16 to reach the festival building, the building of the Dubrovnik Festival.

17 You see, there is no one there. Zarkovica is up there. It can be seen

18 from here. You see? Not only the main street, all the streets were

19 targeted and destroyed.

20 There's a cosmetics shop here, and then there is a street with

21 cafes, well known in Dubrovnik. This is a street that I was born in, by

22 the way.

23 This is the street called Siroka. An extremely valuable building

24 was hit there. Not a mere building, a palace. When we get closer to it,

25 you will see what it's like and then you will be able to appreciate the

Page 3084

1 value and the antiquity of the building. You will see all the debris and

2 the extent of devastation.

3 Q. You talk about a palace, an extremely special palace being hit on

4 that day in this particular street. Do you know the exact address of that

5 palace? If you don't, perhaps you could mark it on the map with the next

6 letter in the alphabet we've reached, which I believe is the letter E.

7 A. Very well. Here it is exactly. I'm going to reach it on the

8 other side with the camera, so you'll see.

9 A Dubrovnik artist, Ivo Grbic, was there or, rather, his studio

10 was there, and overnight he lost everything; his paintings, his equipment,

11 his house, everything. He and his sister remained homeless overnight.

12 [Videotape played]

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this house the famous Dubrovnik

14 poet, author and writer was born. Ivo Vojinovic is his name. He lived

15 for a long time in Dubrovnik but he also lived in Belgrade and his works

16 have been performed and as he is a great author will continue to be

17 performed worldwide.


19 Q. Was his house struck on the 6th of December, sir?

20 A. Yes, yes. This is the 6th. Yes. Everything that we are looking

21 at was hit the day before.

22 Q. And what's the exact address of this house?

23 A. From this junction here --

24 Q. Could it be marked with the letter F so that we keep a record of

25 this. A tiny little letter F.

Page 3085

1 A. What do you mean when you say "a tiny little letter F"? A small

2 one, a handwritten F?

3 Q. Yes, because we don't want any confusion at a later date. I might

4 have missed a letter out. If I have --

5 A. I remember vividly and all the memories are coming back to me. I

6 cannot make a mistake even if I were to repeat the same story a hundred

7 times all over again.

8 MR. KAUFMAN: Your Honour, I might have missed a letter out. If I

9 have, the transcript will reflect the record anyway. So if we're marking

10 this particular building with a letter F, then that will stand out on the

11 record.

12 Let us continue.

13 [Videotape played]

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop. Awhile ago, I was at the

15 archives. Then I moved my camera towards this yellow portion, and I asked

16 one observer, I believe that he was a Belgian or a French, what this

17 yellow was, and he said that these were probably incendiary phosphorous

18 bombs. He used the word "phosphorous." I remember that with precision.

19 The intention being for it to set ablaze whatever -- the place where it

20 fell.


22 Q. So with your pen once again, please mark on -- where you saw that

23 staining with the letter G. The letter G, please.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 3086

1 [Videotape played]

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I'm crossing the street so that

3 I can record the festival palace. This is it, the festival palace.

4 Q. Its exact address, please, sir?

5 A. The street's name is Od Sigurate. What letter should I put there?

6 Q. The letter H.

7 A. So the summer festival has been held for 54 years, and it

8 epitomises all the wit and art that has passed through Dubrovnik with

9 Herbert von Karajan, Sergio Perticaroli, up to Sir Lawrence Olivier, the

10 greatest artists of our times over the last 54 years, rather. So this is

11 where the offices were, the official reception rooms. In this section

12 there were some administrative units and in the attic was the archive. So

13 this is a house that was almost completely demolished as the bare walls

14 still hand, as we will be able to see a bit better a bit later. And for

15 Dubrovnik, this was something totally incomprehensible. No one in

16 Dubrovnik could be convinced that this was not deliberate, not

17 intentional, that it was precisely with intent that this building was

18 targeted in order to destroy the history of the festival.

19 And here to the left you have the Franciscan cloister, and as you

20 can see on the footage, it -- that building has a rich archive, and they

21 were also hit on this occasion.


23 Q. Sir, what actually happened to the archives themselves?

24 A. The archive was completely destroyed. It is a pity that we hadn't

25 microfilmed the content of the archives. It was a unique archives, and

Page 3087

1 later the director of the festival called upon the citizens who had -- who

2 had anything, who had gone to concerts and performances and had saved at

3 home their programmes of these concerts, to bring those in, and in this

4 way we managed to salvage some of the documentation, but it was really a

5 pitiful, wretched end to it, to the archives.

6 This was the destruction of a very beautiful period in the history

7 of the Dubrovnik Festival.

8 Q. Sir, it seems that you're fairly well acquainted with this

9 building. Is there any particular reason why? If so, perhaps you could

10 enlighten us as to the architectural and historic features of this

11 building.

12 A. This was a palace. Obviously this building, inside it was all in

13 paintings and frescos. On the floors there were wonderful, beautiful

14 Italian tiles hundreds of years old. In fact, even as a child and later

15 as a recognised and renowned artist, I performed at the Dubrovnik

16 Festival. I had my solo concerts, and I had a large musical of mine

17 staged at the palace. This musical was also performed in one of the best

18 renowned theatres in Belgrade, the Terazije in Belgrade. And this is a

19 performance that toured the whole world: Warsaw, Moscow, Leningrad,

20 Split, and as I already said, in Belgrade. At that time it was also --

21 no, it was also performed at the Dubrovnik summer festival I believe in

22 1988 so that I have very deep feelings about this building and I am very

23 familiar with it. As I said, it had beautiful architecture and generally

24 it was beautiful.

25 And downstairs there was a cafe. There was a place, a gathering

Page 3088

1 place where artists came, and you could meet the greatest world renowned

2 artists who would drop in there to have coffee or tea.

3 [Videotape played]

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can see that this woman just

5 cannot make up her mind to run across the street to the other side.

6 And here you can see how the stone melted. And this is a family

7 house. You can see the coat of arms. This is a family house, and every

8 family house, 500, 600 years old had a coat of arms of the family. And a

9 bit later, down here, you will see how the extreme temperature made the

10 stone melt.


12 Q. Sir, the particular address of that building with the coat of

13 arms, do you know it?

14 A. It is also Od Sigurate Street, but on the other side here is the

15 Festival Palace, and this is this building. Shall I mark it with a

16 letter?

17 Q. Yes, please. The letter I we've reached. Tiny little letter I.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. Thank you.

20 [Videotape played]

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can see it is also empty and all

22 burnt. You can see the molten stone here.

23 If I may, you can see the people scurrying, running across the

24 street. It is still very unsafe. So these people who I met, these are my

25 acquaintances and friends in Dubrovnik. We more or less all know each

Page 3089












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3090

1 other. These are people 20 years old or so, so it would have been logical

2 for them to be members of an army, but these were people who normally

3 lived in town.


5 Q. Now, sir, please look at the cupola there. That building, that

6 monument is what exactly?

7 A. This is the cupola which we saw a minute ago. This is the bell

8 tower of the cloister, the Franciscan cloister, and the shell came in from

9 the direction of Zarkovica.

10 Q. And, sir, that is normal, is it, this area that I'm pointing to

11 now with the arrow, or is it some abnormal feature on the cupola? Is it

12 damaged?

13 A. No. The cupola is damaged. There is a hole on it. You will see

14 perhaps later in the next clip this is of course not normal. And you have

15 the gromobran also damaged.

16 Q. Well, we will see -- is this what you're referring to, the

17 lightning conductor?

18 A. Yes.

19 [Videotape played]


21 Q. We're still on the Stradun, sir, when we look at this?

22 A. As you can see, there is funny sides to it as well. This was a

23 proud lad out of some pride and protest. He sat on his bike to drive

24 through the main street of Dubrovnik on it. Otherwise, this is not a

25 street which allowed motorists, bikers in.

Page 3091

1 Q. Are you able to name this particular street, sir?

2 A. The name of this street is Djordjo -- no. It's Cubranoviceva, in

3 fact.

4 Q. So with a little J, please mark that.

5 A. [Marks].

6 Q. Thank you. Let us continue.

7 [Videotape played]


9 Q. Okay. Now proceeding down this street that you just mentioned.

10 A. Yes. Now we shall reach the Od Puca Street. Just look at the

11 devastation.

12 So this is the mansion, the palace in which this artist Grbic

13 lived. It has been repaired but it can never be restored to its original

14 state. Of course you can see by the balconies what a wonderful building

15 this had been. I'm saying this because I really can't see for what reason

16 fire was opened at this particular building. Because there was this

17 artist painter who lived in it. There was no reason whatsoever for it to

18 be demolished and for this man to be killed.

19 [Videotape played]

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Look at this balcony. It has

21 wrought iron latticework. You can see this part where there is still a

22 smouldering fire. We will see the fire, in fact, in a minute. Yes. It

23 is still smouldering. In fact, parts of it are in flames. The balcony on

24 the other side of the street.

25 This is Siroka Street.

Page 3092


2 Q. Now, sir, I don't believe we've actually marked Mr. Grbic's

3 apartment or palace. Perhaps you could with a letter K show us where that

4 was.

5 A. If you allow me to observe, we've already marked it with an E.

6 Q. Oh.

7 A. Awhile ago.

8 Q. Thank you, sir.

9 [Videotape played]

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So this actually can demonstrate how

11 much the people were humiliated, degraded. There's -- there was nothing

12 to be bought. There was no food. There was no water. You could have

13 millions of dollars in your pockets, all these shops had been devastated,

14 there was nothing to be had.

15 Let's go on, please. There's a very interesting scene very soon.


17 Q. This particular address that we've stopped at at the moment, are

18 you aware of where that is, the address of it?

19 A. It is the Od Puca Street.

20 Q. Do you have a number, sir?

21 A. I'll show you on the map. If I could be provided with a map,

22 please. And should I mark it with some letter?

23 Q. Maybe the letter K I think we've reached. Is it K or J? Use the

24 letter K, please, sir.

25 A. [In English] K, yes.

Page 3093

1 [Videotape played]

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop. You can see here on the upper

3 storey there was a concert piano. What remained is only its carcass, the

4 iron carcass of a large concert piano.

5 This is St. Joseph Church.


7 Q. Was St. Joseph Church hit, sir, to your knowledge?

8 A. Here above the door there is a small, perhaps half-metre,

9 sculpture and its head was hit off, and here it says the inscription St.

10 Joseph will make it up to you a hundredfold -- or may he make it up to you

11 a hundredfold, rather.

12 [Videotape played]

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is yet another palace, huge

14 building, and we shall also see its coat of arms when we move on. It was

15 totally burnt to the ground.


17 Q. The address of that palace, sir, do you know it?

18 A. This is the Od Puca Street. The adjacent street, what letter

19 shall I put here?

20 Q. The letter L, I believe we've reached, yes.

21 A. I have put it, the letter L.

22 Q. Thank you, sir. Do you know the number of that particular address

23 on Od Puca Street, as you say?

24 A. I'm familiar with this corner where these houses -- where the

25 house burnt and the walls fell down, and there probably was no number on

Page 3094

1 the house because I would have recorded it, but I have placed the letter L

2 on exactly the right spot where the building was.

3 Q. Thank you, sir. Let us continue.

4 [Videotape played]


6 Q. This is the same palace that you were referring to?

7 A. Yes, the same one. The same one. That is why I'm not saying

8 anything more. It so happens that this woman remained -- escaped with her

9 life in the first half of the house.

10 On to the left there is a large church which was also hit. It is

11 in the centre of town. It had never been devastated before. My friends

12 used to come there and came there to practice their religions. In

13 contrast to that, everything vis-a-vis this house was burnt to the ground.

14 Q. This particular monument, do you know its name? You say it's a

15 church.

16 A. It is the Orthodox church. That is how we call it.

17 Q. Now, we've been seeing a lot of damage so far, sir, and it is

18 noticeable that in a number of the images that we have seen, that the

19 roofs are missing. Do you have an explanation for why the roofs are

20 missing?

21 A. Because the shell landed obviously on the roof, and everything

22 caved in and was set on fire. The shells came from air, not from the

23 ground.

24 [Videotape played]

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here you can see the cross up there

Page 3095

1 on Srdj, the wings of which, so to speak, have already fallen off so that

2 a new cross had to be erected later. And here we see the pillar, the

3 column of the funicular which was also in existence before but was

4 demolished in this attack on --

5 THE INTERPRETER: The 5th, the interpreter believes the witness

6 said.


8 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

9 A. This is the support, the pillar of the cross which is a sign of

10 protection of Dubrovnik, and it overlooks the city.

11 Q. You see the pillar, the support part. What happened to the cross

12 part? Are you aware? If you aren't, just say you're not and we'll move

13 on.

14 A. They were shelled from ships, and later they would take it out

15 completely. I believe it was a matter of prestige which particular ship

16 would actually hit it, and it was fired from the sea.

17 Q. Is that on the basis of what you heard, sir, or what you

18 witnessed?

19 A. Later there was some TV programmes that were prepared by

20 journalists much more famous than I myself saying that the shells were

21 landing from the southern side under the cross and from the direction of

22 the south the only shells could have come if they were fired from the

23 vessels.

24 Q. That's the conclusion of the journalists. Let's just move on,

25 shall we?

Page 3096

1 [Videotape played]


3 Q. Tell us the street we're continuing down now, sir, please.

4 A. We're still in Od Puca Street. Across, the Orthodox church.

5 Q. Sir, please mark on the map the letter -- the next letter. I

6 believe it -- is it letter M? M, M for mother. If you could mark on the

7 map where the Serb Orthodox church is. Thank you.

8 A. I have. We can move on.

9 [Videotape played]

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is exactly opposite the church.

11 I can see that these are palaces by their architecture. There used to be

12 a coat of arms, probably of the family which owned it.

13 [Videotape played]

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please stop for a minute there.

15 This is where a very renown gentleman from Dubrovnik had a shop, and this

16 was a shop owned by a Serb. And I say the Serb's boutique, the Serb's

17 shop. This only shows that people of all ethnic backgrounds and religions

18 lived normally in Dubrovnik, that they had mutual respect irrespective of

19 their political or religious affiliations. This is why I say the Butega

20 od Srbina, the Serb's boutique. This was only normal then.

21 [Videotape played]

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He actually made picture frames,

23 painting frames, and sold them in the shop.


25 Q. What are you saying there, sir?

Page 3097

1 A. This is the street of Miha Pracata, but we call it the Music

2 School Street because there is a music school in that street. So that is

3 why we tend to call it that way, the Music School Street. This is the

4 mosque of Dubrovnik, this door right over here.

5 Q. Please, sir, with a letter N, mark the mosque of Dubrovnik. N.

6 A. [Marks]

7 [Videotape played]

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a palace too. We're going

9 to see the coat of arms, now. We're going to see the family coat of arms.

10 Q. And this is on Miha Pracata?

11 A. Yes. All of that is there. That is the street of Miha Pracata,

12 yes.

13 Q. And are you aware of the exact address with the number of this

14 particular palace that we're about to see in the photograph?

15 A. This is vis-a-vis the letter N.

16 Q. Okay.

17 [Videotape played]

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see the coat of arms here, the

19 family coat of arms. This is the family coat of arms. I don't want to

20 refer to the family name lest I make a mistake but this is a palace that

21 belonged to an old family of Dubrovnik. This is very similar to the

22 festival building. This is what the festival building was like too.


24 Q. And are you continuing --

25 A. Would you stop here for a moment? This is where the young man was

Page 3098

1 killed. That's the shop. That's where the arrow is, that's where the

2 door is, actually. The shop sign, Discont Mediator. That is where he got

3 killed. The shooting was on this side, but then something ricochetted and

4 that's how he got killed. See, this was a palace too.

5 Q. Sir, when you say "on this side," what do you mean by "on this

6 side"?

7 A. I mean this side. The shooting came from my left-hand side.

8 That's the east. That's where the east is. So the shell fell somewhere

9 around here and it ricochetted. So it was not a direct hit.

10 [Videotape played]

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the Church of St. Joseph.

12 St. Joseph is headless.


14 Q. You've already marked that on the map, sir, haven't you?

15 A. No.

16 Q. I do believe you did earlier when you were talking about the

17 charity box, but maybe I'm mistaken. In that case, perhaps you could mark

18 it with the letter O.

19 A. This is the house where piano is, the letter K, and then L is the

20 palace, and then the Church of St. Joseph is between the two. So what

21 should I put between here now?

22 Q. I believe we've reached the letter O, small little letter O.

23 A. O, all right.

24 Q. Now, that is St. Joseph, is it, carrying the baby Jesus?

25 A. Yes, yes, that's right, but he is headless.

Page 3099

1 Q. Do you know when he became headless, when he was decapitated?

2 A. On the previous day. On the previous day, on the 6th.

3 [Videotape played]


5 Q. The street being Ulica --

6 A. Cubranoviceva.

7 Q. And this street, sir?

8 A. I think that this is the festival building vis-a-vis. This is

9 Cubranoviceva then. This is Cubranoviceva, again near the festival

10 building.

11 Q. Sir, what do we see here? Look where the arrow is pointing.

12 A. We see that there is no roof. We see that there used to be a roof

13 but that there is no roof there any longer. We also see smoke coming from

14 that void, so we see that it had just been devastated.

15 Q. Are you able to name that building, sir?

16 A. The Dubrovnik Festival.

17 [Videotape played]

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the festival building again.

19 This is the Franciscan cloister.

20 This is where the Red Cross signs are, when somebody needed

21 medicine or any kind of assistance, and this is the oldest pharmacy in

22 Europe.


24 Q. Sir, we're drawing to the close of your video now, but did you

25 witness any damage in the cloister itself on that day? Will we see any of

Page 3100

1 that damage on this video film?

2 A. Well, you saw some palm trees there, but here inside you can see

3 the dining-room of the Franciscan monks. Pater Polonio -- Mato Polonio.

4 That was his name. He was my personal friend.

5 Now we're going to see where the shell fell in the dining-room.

6 There are vast archives there of Gundulic, Marin Drzic, the great poets of

7 Dubrovnik. This is Pater Polonio.

8 Q. And what happened to the archives of those great poets?

9 A. You can hear the siren now sounding off the end of the state of

10 alert. So I was filming all of this while there was still a state of

11 alert, while it was still dangerous. And this shell could have fallen

12 only from the side of Zarkovica and Bosanka.

13 [Videotape played]

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Old furniture, centuries old. We'll

15 also see other damage that was done. See?


17 Q. Sir, please take --

18 A. I would like to draw your attention to something else. There was

19 a lot more footage that was taken, but this is an abbreviated version. So

20 I would like the Honourable Trial Chamber to know that, if necessary, we

21 have more material, but I believe that this speaks sufficiently about what

22 happened on the 7th of December, 1991, in Dubrovnik.

23 Q. Sir, once again have a look at the damage that the arrow is

24 pointing to at the moment.

25 A. This is a part of this priceless object, 200 years old. There are

Page 3101












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3102

1 no stonesmiths like that left. Nobody can make that kind of thing

2 nowadays. This is a history of a people, of a nation. And also the

3 archives, the great archives were there. This is where the works of

4 Sorkocevic are, a great composer from Dubrovnik. And also the texts of

5 Marin Drzic, and Gundulic's famous texts, Osman, Dubravka. This is where

6 I wrote my musical called Dundo Maroje because they let me use the

7 premises. In a way my own soul is there, so this involved such hurt, such

8 humiliation. I cannot understand until the present day why all of this

9 happened.

10 Q. Sir, put yourself up there with your back facing the wall,

11 standing where that damage is, if you look at the arrow. You're now

12 looking out in front of you. In which geographical direction are you

13 looking? What do you see, if possible?

14 A. On the right-hand side is the east, here, right here. This is the

15 view from Zarkovica or Bosanka precisely, 100 per cent.

16 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, all the damage that we've been viewing up

17 until now, did Dubrovnik, the Old Town of Dubrovnik, look like this on the

18 5th of December?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Let us move on.

21 [Videotape played]

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the guardian of the

23 monastery. This is the flag. If it was there, obviously overnight it

24 fell too.

25 You see how much of the wall is missing.

Page 3103

1 This is the interior of the monastery, where the walls were broken

2 through. The shells fell in through there. On the walls there are

3 pictures of the great men of Dubrovnik, well-known people from the history

4 of Dubrovnik. This is certainly a councilman from Old Dubrovnik. Then

5 there are also pictures of Rudjer Boskovic, Getaldic, and other great

6 artists.


8 Q. Sir, I thank you for that. We have perhaps reached the end of our

9 viewing of your video. We will submit the video to the Trial Chamber at

10 this point in time.

11 A. Seventh. Can I ask you whether we're going to view the footage of

12 the 6th? Are we going to see the cause of all of this?

13 Q. Well, sir, we can do that if you wish, but perhaps for the time

14 being we'll submit this exhibit. I have other footage which I'd like to

15 show you later which includes footage of the 6th.

16 JUDGE PARKER: We must stop now because of the tape. That will be

17 received as an exhibit, the film, and we'll have a break.

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is something

19 very important in relation to this film, but if you so instruct me, then

20 I'm going to raise that immediately after the break.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

24 --- Recess taken at 12.24 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 12.55 p.m.

Page 3104

1 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Kaufman.

2 MR. KAUFMAN: Yes, Your Honours. Before the break Mr. Petrovic

3 raised a matter, and in the spirit of collegiality, we have had an

4 opportunity to discuss the matter. I will explore it with the witness

5 because we are about to see another part of the witness's film. If

6 Mr. Petrovic, of course, feels that there is still a necessity to raise

7 the matter, I'm sure he will do so at the conclusion of the film. As I

8 say I'm proposing now to show another three minutes of film footage.

9 Q. Mr. Jusic, if you could please look at the video monitor in front

10 of you. Do you see there a scene filmed --

11 A. Yes. This was taken from my balcony.

12 Q. Okay, sir. Now, on which day was this taken?

13 A. On the 6th.

14 Q. We're going to in a minute see a few more minutes of footage

15 pursuant to your request and of course our desire to give the Court an

16 indication of what happened on the morning of the 6th of December.

17 Now, going through your video which is currently being played to

18 you, we have noticed three distinct dates, month of November, where we saw

19 the car by the walls being blown up; the 7th of December, which is where

20 we spent most of the time discussing, showing your walk through the Old

21 Town; and we're now about to see footage of the 6th of December. So this

22 is a collection of footage. Who made that collection? Who did the cuts?

23 A. I filmed this from my balcony, from the balcony of my apartment,

24 and I'm the one who did the cuts, if you can put it that way. I took out

25 what the most important footage was, what the most important things to be

Page 3105

1 seen were, actually.

2 Q. So if I can put it another way, you were the person who did the

3 editing of this particular film that we've been seeing today.

4 A. Well, look, while I was waiting for things to happen, there were

5 long pauses, so in order to avoid the viewers having to wait through, I

6 made the cuts.

7 Q. Now, sir, please understand I'm not criticising you. I'm just

8 clarifying the matter for purposes of legal technicalities, if I can put

9 it that way.

10 Now, did anyone edit your film apart from yourself?

11 A. Only I. Only I.

12 Q. Thank you, sir. I think that should probably clarify the matter.

13 If Mr. Petrovic has anything more to say about it, I'm sure he will raise

14 his objection in due course.

15 Now, let us show this portion of the film to you. Once again, if

16 you feel the need to comment, please do so. If I feel the need to stop

17 and ask you to expand, I will do so.

18 [Videotape played]

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now we're going to see the shells

20 falling on the Old Town. You can hear the strong wind blowing then. This

21 is the bura wind that is famous in Dubrovnik.

22 We can go on now.


24 Q. Yes, sir. We're about to hear some noise and I didn't want you to

25 be speaking whilst we hear the noise. The bura wind that you mentioned,

Page 3106

1 which direction is that wind?

2 A. It blows from the land to the sea, but every now and then you will

3 hear this. I think that this is stereo sound, too. You can actually hear

4 the whizzing of the shells flying literally in front of my nose.

5 Q. All right. Do you mean shells or projectiles, sir, the whizzing

6 ones?

7 A. Projectiles. "Shells" is a general term or, rather, I don't

8 really know this terminology, what flew there, but this is to prove that

9 the shooting came from the east towards the town, that is to say westward.

10 Q. And that is behind you, as it were.

11 A. Yes, to my left.

12 Q. Sir, what time of day is this filmed, this particular portion the

13 film we're about to see?

14 A. This was filmed in the morning.

15 Q. Can you be more exact?

16 A. On the morning of the 6th. Perhaps around 8.00 or 9.00, say. It

17 can also be seen from the sun rays.

18 Q. Let us continue.

19 [Videotape played]

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Have you heard the shell now? Have

21 you heard it now? Have you heard this projectile flying by?


23 Q. We can put the film back, if necessary, but maybe it is worth

24 inquiring of the Trial Chamber whether a whizzing sound was noticed there.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, it was.

Page 3107

1 MR. KAUFMAN: I thank Your Honours. So may the record reflect

2 that in fact at that portion of film, just slightly before six minutes and

3 five seconds, a whizzing sound was heard.

4 [Videotape played]

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the building of the music

6 school that was hit now, the building of the music school on the left.


8 Q. [Previous translation continues]... this building?

9 A. Exactly. A bit to the right, though. That is all the building of

10 the music school. Where the arrow is, that's exactly where the music

11 school building is.

12 Q. So we will see that later, with a plume of smoke.

13 [Videotape played]

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So I'm moving the camera around, but

15 this is the pressure from the shells that has affected me. It's the air

16 pressure that's affected me, and it's pushing me back and that's why the

17 camera is moving. Some of it is due to fear, of course.


19 Q. Sir, please see the area that my arrow is now encircling. This is

20 at seven minutes and 25 seconds. What can we see there?

21 A. Here it is. This is the music school. It was hit, yes, exactly,

22 and you can see the plume of smoke, yes.

23 [Videotape played]


25 Q. Sir, I think that's fairly demonstrative of what happened, what

Page 3108

1 you saw from your balcony on the 6th of December.

2 MR. KAUFMAN: At this point in time I'd like to submit the video,

3 the CD on which that video is contained, as an exhibit.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic.

5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before we as the

6 Defence would be in a position to state our views on my learned friend

7 Mr. Kaufman's proposal, there is still one thing that is unclear, and

8 Mr. Jusic explained it only in part today. The questions are the

9 following, Your Honour: How many films are there? What is their

10 duration? When were all these films made? Is there an integral version?

11 Was the integral version handed over to the Prosecution? And finally, in

12 relation to the last explanation given by Mr. Kaufman, when did Mr. Jusic

13 make the cuts and according to which criterion?

14 Your Honour, those are the questions that we believe have to be

15 dealt with before a compilation is admitted. This is obviously a

16 compilation. We have no reason to doubt Mr. Jusic's intentions, and we're

17 not doing that. However, in order to be in a position to present our own

18 views in a valid manner, we need to know about all the things that I

19 referred to just now.

20 Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Kaufman.

22 MR. KAUFMAN: Yes, Your Honours. If I may just briefly reply.

23 Mr. Petrovic seems to be raising two matters, one being a matter of

24 non-disclosure of material, the other being a matter concerned with the

25 authenticity of the video film which has been shown to the Trial Chamber.

Page 3109

1 If I may deal with the second issue first. I would have thought

2 and I would submit that the matters raised by Mr. Petrovic are or should

3 rather be the subject of cross-examination; when the cuts were made, why

4 they were made. These are the sort of things that can be challenged in

5 cross-examination and do not necessarily affect the admissibility of the

6 video which I'm currently seeking to tender to the Trial Chamber.

7 The first issue also should not really affect the admissibility of

8 the video which I am seeking to address and tender to the Trial Chamber.

9 Whether or not there are further videos which Mr. Jusic has made, I can

10 inquire with him now. What I can say is that this video which has been --

11 which is being tendered at the current moment in time is the only video

12 that we have in our possession from the witness.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Now, the issue of non-disclosure, Mr. Kaufman.

14 MR. KAUFMAN: Yes, Your Honour. If I may just consult with

15 Ms. Somers. She wants to tell me something.

16 [Prosecution counsel confer]

17 MR. KAUFMAN: Yes, Your Honour. If I may repeat: Once again,

18 with respect to the issue of non-disclosure, we have only been handed from

19 this particular witness this particular video film, and we have handed

20 over and disclosed that to my learned friend Mr. Petrovic. Once again,

21 the -- in my submission, the Office of the Prosecutor is not obliged to

22 turn over anything which it obviously has not got in its possession.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Jusic, can you assist me. Is this film one

24 film which you -- from which you have edited some parts, or is this a

25 compilation from a number of different films?

Page 3110

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already explained how this was

2 recorded, but when your people were there, when they talked to me in

3 Dubrovnik, at one point in time I said that perhaps I was a bit too much

4 of a patriot and perhaps I'm not going to say everything that should be

5 said, but then I said I have films, and they were really taken by surprise

6 and they said, "What kind of films?" And I said I had recordings from the

7 6th and the 7th and also before that, from November. That is how this

8 happened. That is how I handed over these films to the Honourable Court.

9 There is a longer version here, but it is also here in court. And

10 that's all.

11 JUDGE PARKER: You haven't answered what I was searching for. I

12 didn't make my question clear, I fear. I want to know whether you had

13 just one film in the camera when you took each one of the periods of

14 photography - one in October or November and then one on the 6th of

15 December and one on the 7th of December - or were there different films in

16 the camera on those days?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I had two cassettes. I was

18 not prepared for filming, so I even had to erase parts of some footage in

19 order to be able to make this. So I was not getting prepared for war

20 footage. I did this spontaneously. This is it. This is what I did on my

21 own. I took the footage from my balcony. What we saw before was the 7th

22 of December, 1991, and what we saw just now is the morning of the 6th of

23 December, 1991.

24 JUDGE PARKER: You have described the process by which you edited

25 the film that you had taken. You did say that you edited out parts where

Page 3111

1 you had paused for a long time. Did you edit out other material?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. First of all, I do not

3 have the facilities to do any editing at home, so I went to this plain old

4 shop in Dubrovnik where you can rent videos. So what I did was I cut the

5 pauses. There was no other editing, just in order to bridge this between

6 the two pauses. None of this which we saw now taken that morning was

7 edited. The camera was switched on and then it was switched off

8 eventually. No cuts were made, that was it, the morning of the 6th.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. And did I hear you say you had a longer

10 film here with you as well as the film we have seen?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have it here with me, my

12 lawyers have it. At least, that's what I was told.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Does that mean here in The Hague or somewhere

14 else?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here in The Hague.

16 MR. KAUFMAN: Perhaps I may be able to enlighten the Trial Chamber

17 as to the cause of the confusion perhaps. When Mr. Jusic came to The

18 Hague approximately two weeks ago when he was due to give evidence, he was

19 proofed, and for the purposes of the proofing session we showed Mr. Jusic

20 a shortened version of the film which is now being presented to Your

21 Honours. So it may be the case, and of course I will have to clarify this

22 with the witness, that the witness is confusing the shortened version

23 that was shown to him with the long version which has actually being shown

24 in court today. It may be the case that Mr. Jusic thinks what we are

25 showing now, which is in fact the entire footage that we received from

Page 3112

1 him, is in fact the shortened version.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Perhaps you could explore that with Mr. Jusic.


4 Q. Mr. Jusic, do you remember being proofed in The Hague or visiting

5 The Hague and myself and Ms. Somers approximately two weeks ago?

6 A. That's true. Yes.

7 Q. And we were preparing you for your evidence in court today?

8 A. In fact, we were going through all the substance that I gave

9 during my statements in Dubrovnik.

10 Q. And we showed you a video film. Do you remember that?

11 A. Yes, that's true.

12 Q. And we basically did the same exercise that we've been doing in

13 court today, going through the video film, stopping it and asking you for

14 your comments.

15 A. And you also asked me the same thing, whether I took this, and I

16 gave the same answer I gave here today, that I took it from my balcony by

17 myself with my own camera on the 6th and the 7th. So it's not for me to

18 recognise now whether it's the shorter version or the longer version.

19 These are the important clips.

20 Q. Now, sir, are you under the impression that that video that we

21 showed you -- Sir, are you under the impression that that video that we

22 showed you when you came here approximately two weeks ago is the same

23 video that has now been broadcast in the Trial Chamber, or do you not

24 know?

25 A. Definitely it is this material, but I cannot give the exact

Page 3113












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3114

1 duration. It is that film.

2 MR. KAUFMAN: So, I think, Your Honours, at this point in time the

3 explanation or the further clarification matter lies with the Office of

4 the Prosecutor and not with the witness. And I can inform the Trial

5 Chamber that the video that was shown to Mr. Jusic when he visited

6 approximately two weeks ago was the shortened version of the video which

7 is currently being displayed in court.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Mr. Petrovic, do you have any submission to

9 make on admissibility?

10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Just a moment,

11 please. I beg your pardon.

12 [Defence counsel confer]

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, during the

14 examination-in-chief of Witness Jusic, he said on several occasions, if I

15 remember correctly, including a few minutes ago, he said that there were a

16 few films. That is one point.

17 The second point, Your Honour: Every one of these cassettes is

18 individually much longer than these 30 minutes that we have on this

19 particular tape. Where is that material? What is on that material? How

20 was this edited, cut, put together? That is a cause of serious concern

21 for us.

22 So there are certainly several hours of material involved. How

23 and according to what criterion was all of this reduced to what Your

24 Honours had the opportunity of seeing, which is 21 minutes in one version,

25 in the second version it is about 40 minutes, and there has to be several

Page 3115

1 hours of material. That is what causes our concern. We did not know

2 about that. We heard from Mr. Jusic's evidence today that that is the

3 volume of material involved.

4 So that is our concern. That is a problem as far as its admission

5 into evidence is concerned. Of course, if we were to have insight into

6 the entirety of this material from which this was created, this which was

7 shown to Your Honours, then we could say, yes, that's it. But at this

8 point in time, I don't think that that would be proper. I don't think

9 that this document in this way is acceptable for admission.

10 Thank you, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Kaufman.

12 MR. KAUFMAN: By your leave. The Office of the Prosecutor has in

13 its possession two videos only from this witness. One of the videos is an

14 edited video version of the video that has currently been displayed by the

15 Court, and that video was edited by the Office of the Prosecutor. Both of

16 these videos, which are contained on compact disk, have been given to the

17 Defence. They have been timely disclosed.

18 The first of the videos, the long version of the video which has

19 been displayed in court today, was disclosed a long time ago. The edited

20 version was disclosed in the run-up to Mr. Jusic's attending court today.

21 Your Honour, I do not believe that I can add anything useful

22 further on this matter.

23 JUDGE PARKER: I propose, Mr. Petrovic, to admit the CD containing

24 -- or the CD version of the video into evidence. There is no issue of

25 non-disclosure. The evidence discloses that all that is on the film was

Page 3116

1 taken by this witness on the days that he indicates. The content of such

2 a film is, therefore, relevant and of probative force for the purposes of

3 the trial and is thereby admissible.

4 The question of whether there is some doubt to be attached to what

5 it contains, because certain parts have been edited out and how much has

6 been edited out, is something that you may fully explore with the witness

7 during cross-examination, and the effect of that may or may not alter the

8 weight which this Chamber would otherwise attach to what is presently

9 shown on the film, but I don't think those questions touch the issue of

10 admissibility in this particular case.

11 The situation is quite similar to that which you might find if

12 there was tendered before us a film shown on a television station. There

13 can be no question but that the photographer would have filmed a great

14 deal more film than is shown by the television station, say, in a news

15 programme, and this, as we have both the photographer and the editor, who

16 is the witness, the Chamber is in a position to accept what is presently

17 tendered as properly admissible subject to any question of weight which

18 may be further informed by your cross-examination.

19 So it will be received and will be given a number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P78.

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may. May I just

22 say one sentence to clarify what my learned colleague has said. I don't

23 want to leave this equivocal. It is true that we were disclosed two

24 versions, but these two versions are not two cassettes or a number of

25 cassettes that Mr. Jusic is talking about. But of course, we shall raise

Page 3117

1 these questions in more detail and more specifically during our

2 cross-examination. Thank you, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Now, had you finished, Mr. Kaufman?

4 MR. KAUFMAN: I will be concluding, Your Honours --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone for Mr. Kaufman.

6 MR. KAUFMAN: Yes. I am indeed drawing to the end of

7 examination-in-chief.

8 JUDGE PARKER: I just saw you sitting. I thought you had actually

9 sat.

10 MR. KAUFMAN: No, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on.

12 MR. KAUFMAN: I was trained to sit when my learned friend makes

13 his submissions.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, Mr. Kaufman.


16 Q. Mr. Jusic, I'm going to show you some photographs now. If we can

17 start with the first photograph, which has already been exhibited in this

18 Court as P31. If it may be recalled. If that's a problem, I have a copy

19 here.

20 Mr. Jusic, you can look at the screen in front of you. There's no

21 need to put it on the ELMO, but --

22 Mr. Jusic, before you answer, I'm going to be showing you a number

23 of prominent monuments, high monuments, if I may put it that way, in the

24 Old Town of Dubrovnik. I'd like you to tell us what those monuments are

25 as we see them. And once again going through the procedure which may be

Page 3118

1 quite familiar to you now from my earlier questioning, please try and tell

2 us in which direction the hole that we see is facing.

3 So here in P31 we have a photograph. What is that monument, sir?

4 A. This is the bell tower with the clock which shows the full hour

5 and half hour. It is very old. It was hit by a shell which came from the

6 east, either from Zarkovica or the area of Cavtat.

7 Q. So that particular hole that we see in the photograph is facing

8 towards Zarkovica?

9 A. That is right.

10 Q. And that is --

11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have an objection at

12 this point.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] The only thing which I ask is that

15 the witness be asked the question when was this damage sustained. To

16 discuss the photograph, we need to know the time when the photograph was

17 taken.

18 MR. KAUFMAN: Mr. Petrovic --

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Please don't reply to me. My

20 learned colleague will ask you that question.

21 MR. KAUFMAN: Mr. Petrovic, I didn't dream for one moment not to

22 ask that witness that question. Rest assured, that is the next question

23 that I will be asking.

24 JUDGE PARKER: If we can get a date, it will clear things up.

25 MR. KAUFMAN: The reason why I'm starting off with this particular

Page 3119

1 photograph, as the witness will now tell us:

2 Q. When was this hole incurred, sir? Hopefully I'm showing things in

3 chronological order.

4 A. The bell tower was pierced about 3.00 in the afternoon. I was

5 just passing by on my way home. I heard the whiz and I turned and looked

6 and I saw the hole. So this took place in the days following the 6th or

7 the 7th. I cannot recall the exact date, but it was after those days.

8 JUDGE PARKER: In which month?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It could have in fact been in the

10 beginning of 1992.


12 Q. Let us move on to the next photograph, if I may. Yes. If you

13 could look at your video monitor.

14 A. This is the cathedral. What we see right now is the cupola of the

15 Dubrovnik cathedral. This same shell or, rather, just like the previous

16 shell, this shell hit the bell tower on one side.

17 Q. Now, the date shown on this --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Kaufman.

19 MR. KAUFMAN: Sorry.

20 Q. The date shown on this particular portion of video film is the 7th

21 of December, 1991. Can you tell us when that damage was incurred? If you

22 can't tell us and you don't know or you're not sure, say, "I'm not sure,"

23 or, "I don't know."

24 A. If it was incurred on the 7th of December, 1991, on the 7th of

25 December, we were cleaning the town, clearing up the town, and then it

Page 3120

1 started again, and perhaps it was between the 7th and the 8th, during the

2 night. But since this is obviously daylight, it was in the afternoon of

3 the 7th.

4 Q. Sir, I would ask you please to try not to speculate. If you don't

5 know the date on when the damage occurred, say, "I don't know." Please

6 don't speculate. So once again I ask you. This image was photographed --

7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness answered

8 the question. I don't see why he has to be asked the same question twice.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic. Carry on, Mr. Kaufman.


11 Q. Once again, sir, do you personally have a record of seeing that

12 impact when it occurred? If you didn't, say you didn't. Please don't

13 guess.

14 A. I don't know. Perhaps I was inspired by this date which is

15 inscribed on the photograph, the 7th of December.

16 Q. Now, going back to P31, sir, once again, if we can have P31 pulled

17 up on the screen. The date of this damage, sir, once again I would ask

18 you not to guess. Do you know when that damage was incurred or are you

19 not sure?

20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I protest again. I

21 fail to see why my learned colleague Kaufman keeps reverting twice to

22 things which have been clarified or shall he keep reverting to this

23 question until he gets the answer that he wishes to get? I ask you kindly

24 to prevent this line of questioning. Thank you, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE PARKER: The answer at the moment, I would see,

Page 3121

1 Mr. Petrovic, is one in which the witness has indicated uncertainty, and

2 the question being asked is whether or not he knows. So I would allow the

3 question.


5 Q. So once again, sir, if you're not sure, say you're not sure. If

6 you know, say you know, but please do not guess. It's important that we

7 understand exactly what is in your knowledge.

8 Do you know when this particular hole was caused from what you

9 witnessed with your eyes?

10 A. Well, I'm a meticulous person by nature, and I have an association

11 of a concatenation of events in my mind in connection with this. So in

12 order not to speculate in respect of these events, what I can say is that

13 I cannot decidedly say this took place on such-and-such date.

14 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, let us move on. I showed you a photograph.

15 I'd now like this to be tendered. This is the cathedral that you talked

16 about.

17 MR. KAUFMAN: I haven't asked for it formally to be tendered and

18 assigned an exhibit number, so I will do that now.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Am I correct, Mr. Kaufman, in understanding the

20 evidence of Mr. Jusic to be that this damage actually occurred on the 7th

21 of December?

22 MR. KAUFMAN: Well, I understood his last answer to be, Your

23 Honour, that he can't speculate about it.

24 JUDGE PARKER: The photograph will be received.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P79.

Page 3122


2 Q. Now, Mr. Jusic, one more photograph. What's this monument?

3 A. This is the bell tower of the Franciscan cloister. The same

4 position, namely it was hit from the same direction as the previous one,

5 from the east side, from Zarkovica, that is.

6 Q. Namely, once again, which direction is the hole facing? I

7 wouldn't ask you to draw a conclusion, just tell me, in which direction is

8 the hole facing?

9 A. It is facing the direction of the east, the direction of Zarkovica

10 hill.

11 Q. Thank you. Now, once again, do you know when this damage was

12 incurred? Yes or no. Once again, I ask you, if you're not sure, do not

13 speculate, and say, "I'm not sure."

14 A. I don't know. I'm not sure.

15 Q. Thank you, sir.

16 MR. KAUFMAN: I ask that this photograph be tendered and assigned

17 an exhibit number.

18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P80.


21 Q. And, Mr. Jusic, you will be pleased to know that this is in fact

22 the last photograph I'm going to show you, and we'll go through the same

23 exercise once again.

24 The hole, in which direction is the hole facing?

25 A. This is the Onofrius fountain. It is facing the same direction as

Page 3123

1 in the previous photograph, the bell tower; it is facing Zarkovica.

2 Q. The hole is facing Zarkovica?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. Once again, are you aware on which day the damage was caused from

5 what you witnessed? If you are, please tell us so, if not, say"I'm not

6 sure,""I don't know," whatever.

7 A. I'm not going to assume. I don't know.

8 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, there was a map in front of you with little

9 letters on it. If that could be returned. Just as a last administrative

10 exercise, if you could put an X, since we haven't used that letter, and

11 this is the last thing I'm going to ask you to mark on the map, if you can

12 put an X on the spot where Onofrius fountain is to be found.

13 A. Zarkovica is there.

14 Q. If you could perhaps -- yes. I can see -- if you could make the X

15 more pronounced, perhaps.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Thank you, sir. Thank you.

18 MR. KAUFMAN: If I could ask for that map to be tendered into

19 evidence as well as the photograph of Onofrius fountain.

20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P81.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Now, that was the plan. The photograph?

23 MR. KAUFMAN: Yes indeed, Your Honour. Maybe just for sake of

24 clarity, if someone could put the fact that this is Mr. Djelo Jusic's map

25 on the map itself.

Page 3124

1 JUDGE PARKER: Do you mean the photograph?

2 MR. KAUFMAN: No, the map, the map that's just been handed in.

3 Thank you. I think it's very clear that the map was tendered during the

4 evidence of Mr. Jusic and assigned an exhibit number.


6 MR. KAUFMAN: Thank you, Your Honour, for that. Yes, this is the

7 photograph. If that could be assigned also an exhibit number.

8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P82.

10 MR. KAUFMAN: Thank you.

11 Q. Now, we're about to conclude your evidence, Mr. Jusic. We've been

12 talking about shells, projectiles, whatever, in the Old Town. Now, I'd

13 like to ask you something about what you actually saw. Did you actually

14 ever see any projectiles with your own eyes, apart from the JNA

15 projectiles? Did you ever see any weapons of any nature apart from what

16 you saw and was captured on your video film?

17 A. Of concrete things, I only saw the gunboats that were cruising

18 near Dubrovnik and opening fire, and I saw the shell under the Franciscan

19 cloister.

20 Q. That was a shell that had landed.

21 A. Yes, the one which had landed and was unexploded.

22 Q. Now, inside the Old Town itself, did you ever see any military

23 hardware, weapons, guns of any nature anywhere in the Old Town?

24 A. No, impossible. I didn't see any.

25 Q. Did you ever see any Croatian people in the vicinity of the Old

Page 3125

1 Town or in the Old Town itself with military hardware, guns, weapons of

2 any nature?

3 A. Well, I went inside the city every day, entering it from the east

4 side. From that side there was no weapons at all. And as for the other

5 side, I had no occasion to see, so I don't know. But if there had been

6 any arms there, I would have heard about it, and I didn't.

7 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, Mr. Jusic, I have one concluded my

8 examination-in-chief. But perhaps before I do that, I could ask you to

9 sign that map. If you could sign it in the margin there on the side where

10 you -- and put the date underneath it as well.

11 A. What is the date today?

12 Q. 24th of February.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Mr. Jusic, I thank you ever so much for your evidence in chief.

15 You will be cross-examined. I'm not sure whether that will start today or

16 not, but I have no further questions for you at this moment in time.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Kaufman.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE PARKER: I think you'd like to start tomorrow, would you,

20 Mr. Petrovic?

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, with your

22 permission.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Well, we'll forego the three minutes that there are

24 and you can start tomorrow.

25 Mr. Jusic, thank you for your attendance today. I must ask that

Page 3126

1 you return tomorrow morning for the evidence to continue. Thank you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hardly wait, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE PARKER: We will adjourn.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.43 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day of

6 February, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.