1 Wednesday, 3 March 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning to you all. Would you please convey
6 to Ms. Somers the condolences of the Chamber on the death of her father.
7 MR. RE: I most certainly well, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Are you ready to call the --
9 MR. RE: Yes. Before I start, I inform the Trial Chamber that at
10 some point today, the three psychiatrists engaged by the Prosecution to
11 examine the accused, Mr. Strugar, may be present in the public gallery at
12 some point. I don't know when.
13 The next Prosecution witness is Ms. Zineta Ogresta. I call her.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, to you. If you would be kind enough
17 to take the affirmation from the card there.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Would you like to sit down.
21 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
22 WITNESS: ZINETA OGRESTA
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Re.
25 Examined by Mr. Re:
1 Q. Good morning, Ms. Ogresta. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber
2 your full name.
3 A. My name is Zineta Ogresta. My maiden name is Dilberovic. I was
4 born on the 30th of December in 1950 in Dubrovnik.
5 Q. And do you still live in Dubrovnik?
6 A. Yes, unfortunately I do. In the hotel. I still have not returned
7 to my own home.
8 Q. And what is your occupation?
9 A. I am now pensioned. I have invalidity, disability pension because
10 I suffered from cancer of the breast. Otherwise, I was an administrator
11 in the health service.
12 Q. Were you living in Dubrovnik in 1991?
13 A. Yes, since I was born.
14 Q. Where were you living in October, November, and up until the 6th
15 of December, 1991? Just the address, please.
16 A. Od Sigurate number 2.
17 Q. And where is that in relation to the Festival Palace?
18 A. It's opposite the Festival Palace. The Festival Palace is
19 number 1.
20 Q. That's in the Old Town, of course?
21 A. Yes. Yes, yes, yes.
22 Q. What was your occupation in October, November, December 1991?
23 A. My occupation was in the microbiological laboratory of the
24 Dubrovnik health service, and in October when that unfortunate terrible
25 war began who nobody liked, who brought us much suffering, terrible, I
1 worked in the laboratory then. However, straight after the beginning of
2 the war, we moved the old hospital to Medarevo when the first sirens
3 sounded, and then we went to Medarevo to work there in the new hospital.
4 Okay. Thank you.
5 Q. Were both those health facilities outside the Old Town located in
7 A. Yes, outside the Old Town but in Dubrovnik proper.
8 Q. I will be showing you some photographs a little bit later of your
9 house, but I want you to tell the Trial Chamber at the moment how many
10 levels did the house in which you were living have?
11 A. Two floors, the ground floor and the attic. So four levels in
13 Q. That's three floors and an attic?
14 A. Yes. Yes, yes.
15 Q. Okay. Starting at the bottom, what was on the ground floor?
16 A. On the ground floor there was a warehouse belonging to a shop.
17 Q. What sort of shop?
18 A. It sold footwear. I think it was the Obuca Beograd company and
19 later on the Alpina company, but they tended to change rather fast.
20 Q. Your house was located on the corner of Od Sigurate and Stradun;
21 is that right?
22 A. Yes, yes, yes, yes. To the north-western part, the north-western
23 section looking at it from the Stradun, of course.
24 Q. And the shop or the warehouse on the ground floor, did it have an
25 entrance onto Stradun, a commercial entrance onto Stradun?
1 A. Yes. Yes, it did, on the southern front. That's where the
2 entrance to the shop was, and the storage space was on the ground floor in
3 our house as soon as you entered that building to the left.
4 Q. In which street, Od Sigurate or Stradun?
5 A. No, Stradun. That's where the entrance to the shop was, and my
6 entrance was in the street, Od Sigurate number 2.
7 Q. I'll take you to the first floor. That's the second level of the
8 house. What was on the first level -- sorry, the first floor, the second
10 A. On the first floor was a wonderful stone - how shall I put this? -
11 stone shelves, because it was a house belonging to the nobility before.
12 So this was a wonderful stone wall which should have been protected like
13 the whole of Dubrovnik under UNESCO protection, because I thought -- I
14 think that it was highly valuable culturally speaking, this stone edifice.
15 Q. On the first floor was a shop or commercial space. On the next
16 two levels up, was that residential?
17 A. Yes, it was residential. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Did anyone live on the first floor?
19 A. There was a lady. Her name was Matic, and she lived there.
20 Q. Matic. What was her first name?
21 A. Mrs. Marija Matic, Mrs. Marija Matic.
22 Q. How many rooms were on the first floor?
23 A. I'm not quite sure. Perhaps four. Perhaps four plus the bathroom
24 and so on.
25 Q. When was Ms. Matic born?
1 A. Mrs. Matic, Mrs. Marija Matic, was born in 1900 -- 1910, actually,
2 so she was 81 at the time.
3 Q. Who lived on the second floor?
4 A. I did with my mother -- with my sister. I'm sorry. With my
5 nephew, his wife, and just one more child.
6 Q. You said you were born in 1950. Were you 40 as of the 6th of
7 December, 1991?
8 A. Yes, yes, 40. Well, actually my birthday was on the 30th of
9 December, so just a few days short of 40.
10 Q. I think you mean 41. You said that you were a -- you worked in a
11 hospital and the health clinic -- and a health clinic in 1991. Were you
12 in the military in 1991?
13 A. No, no. I was exclusively a civilian.
14 Q. You've just mentioned your sister. How old was your sister in
15 December 1991?
16 A. 44.
17 Q. What was her occupation in December 1991?
18 A. She wasn't working at the time. Otherwise, she had a boutique at
19 Babin Kuk, and she ran the boutique with a colleague, another lady. She
20 did sewing, designed clothes, that kind of thing.
21 Q. Was she in the military in 19 -- December 1991?
22 A. No, never. She doesn't know what the military is at all.
23 Q. Your nephew was also living with you. How old was your nephew?
24 A. Yes, that's right. He was 33 years old.
25 Q. What was his occupation in December 1991?
1 A. He worked at a printing press not far from Dubrovnik, in Zupa, but
2 that printing house -- actually, the first shelling began outside
3 Dubrovnik, and it was razed to the ground, destroyed completely, and he
4 was left without a job.
5 Q. Was he in the military in December 1991?
6 A. No, not at all. No.
7 Q. What about your nephew's wife? How old was she, and what was her
8 occupation in December 1991?
9 A. 30, I think. Yes, about 30, thereabouts.
10 Q. And what did she do?
11 A. She worked in bookkeeping in the centre for social welfare.
12 Q. Was she in the military?
13 A. No. No.
14 Q. You also had a child living with you. Who was the child?
15 A. Yes. The child's name was Deni, Deni Dilberovic, and he was four
16 when the war began.
17 Q. Is he your great nephew, that is, the child of your nephew and his
19 A. Yes. Yes, yes.
20 Q. Why was your nephew and your -- and his wife and their son living
21 with you in December 1991?
22 A. They lived there all the time because my father had the right of
23 tenant in the apartment, so in that system that was the socialist system,
24 you would inherit this -- these tenant's rights. So after my father it
25 went to my mother. After her death it went to my sister, and we all lived
1 together because it was a big apartment, about 250 square metres with the
2 attic space. We all lived together and then they remained living there,
3 stayed on. They lived there since birth like us.
4 Q. Who actually owned the building or owns the building?
5 A. Well, this is how it was: The building had several owners. One
6 of the main proprietors, and I assume the proprietor of our actual
7 apartment was Mrs. Ljiljana Bulic, and she lived in Split, and she
8 inherited the house, and a part of it belonged to the Murati family, and
9 there are many family members there but they have a very small section,
10 perhaps 1/16th of the house.
11 Q. And did your family occupy the second floor, that's the third
12 level of this building, and the loft?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Which side of the building was the loft, the Stradun side or the
15 Od Sigurate side?
16 A. Both facing Stradun and the Od Sigurate side.
17 Q. What could you see if you looked out the window from the loft on
18 the Stradun side? What was your view of?
19 A. I always looked at Srdj, Mount Srdj, because that's where most of
20 the shelling took place. Somebody would shoot a shell. There would be
21 smoke. It was terrible. I don't know who.
22 Q. If you looked out the window of the loft on the Od Sigurate side,
23 what were you looking at or what could you see?
24 A. I could see the Hotel Imperijal.
25 Q. I want you to describe for the Trial Chamber the interior of the
1 building, the staircases and the rooms. Firstly starting with the
2 staircases. Can you describe what they looked like in 1991?
3 A. I would go in through the main hallway, and on the left-hand side
4 straight ahead was the side entrance to the boutique. To the left was the
5 door to the warehouse or the storage space, and also to the left when you
6 go on there were four steps. We call them skalini, and there would be a
7 narrow space there, I don't know how many square metres, not more than
8 three square metres, maybe even smaller, and then you would have one
9 staircase, a wooden staircase, up to the first floor or, rather, the
10 second landing, and then there were wooden stairs. I've almost forgotten.
11 You know, it's been 13 years and I don't wish to remember it either. But,
12 yes, there was a wooden staircase leading up to my own floor, and on that
13 upper storey, I can't describe the first floor very well because I never
14 went to Mrs. Marija's apartment, but my own apartment had eight rooms. We
15 had a large hall, high ceilings, and it was all built in the old way, the
16 way of -- the buildings were built in Dubrovnik. And on my level there
17 was a credenzija [phoen]. We had a veranda. It was a very artistically
18 built interior and building. It was a wonderful building, a real palace.
19 Q. The Trial Chamber has heard of a number of buildings in Dubrovnik
20 described as palaces which were in fact houses. Was your house one of
21 those buildings?
22 A. Yes, that's absolutely correct. And there were two coats of arms.
23 One of them was slightly damaged but not much.
24 Q. You mentioned high ceilings. Did the rooms had beams?
25 A. Yes. There were beams. Perhaps it would have been different had
1 it been a stone solid -- more solid surface.
2 Q. On the veranda, did the veranda have a balustrade?
3 A. Yes, yes, yes, yes. It was very ornamental, the balustrade with
4 pillars in the baroque style.
5 Q. How would you describe the quality of the interior of your house
6 or palace in comparison to other buildings in Dubrovnik in the Old Town
7 that you've been in?
8 A. I don't want to be immodest, if I say that it was one of the most
9 beautiful apartments, the one that my father received, but through many
10 years of work, we made it even more beautiful. We made a large loft with
11 a chimney piece, a mantle piece, and it was very beautiful, and we would
12 rent out to foreigners, and they were always surprised to see how
13 beautiful it was. It was very imposing. For example, the sitting room,
14 the salon, was 30 square metres, and the other rooms did too. They had a
15 soul, if I can put it that way, but perhaps I just felt that, but that's
16 what I think.
17 Q. And were there any small decorative touches to the finishes,
18 cabinets or anything like that?
19 A. Yes. I've already said that there was a wall, decorative wooden
20 sculptured set of shelves.
21 Q. Was that built into the wall as part of the building?
22 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, it was like a built-in cupboard.
23 Q. In December 1991, approximately how many people were living in
24 Od Sigurate? That's the street.
25 A. 17, 20 people perhaps. But otherwise, the street is empty now.
1 Q. Were these people military, civilians?
2 A. Civilians, exclusively civilians.
3 Q. What was the age of the people, the age mixture of the people
4 living in the street then?
5 A. Ranging from 50 to 70. Mrs. Marija, of course, was 81.
6 Q. Were there any other children in the street apart from your nephew
8 A. Yes, there were other children. Two, four, six -- six children.
9 There were some who came from elsewhere, because first the shelling
10 started out of town. There were detonations there, and then people came
11 to Dubrovnik to stay with their families there. Many of them thought, and
12 we thought, too, that that was the safest place to be, that Dubrovnik was
13 an old city, well-protected, and safe.
14 Q. What was the ages of these six children?
15 A. My nephew's son was four, and these other children, well, there
16 were two who were about three or four as well, and two were teenagers, 13
17 or 12, something like that, approximately.
18 Q. Just to clarify your previous answer, you said there were some who
19 came from elsewhere. Are you saying -- I'm sorry. I withdraw that.
20 How many of those children had come in to stay with relatives and
21 how many lived permanently in the street before the shelling started?
22 A. Five children lived there continuously, whereas those who came
23 during the war, well, there were about two of them, I think, but then I'm
24 not too sure because we don't have such close ties, I mean the upper and
25 the lower parts of the street.
1 Q. You've told the Trial Chamber about shelling. When did the
2 shelling start?
3 A. The 1st of October, 1991. Again I got up in the morning. A
4 friend of mine came to spend the night with me, and we were getting ready
5 to go to work, and my sister was too, and we heard some detonations. And
6 it wasn't too far away and then it was getting closer and closer. I was
7 so surprised. And then I wondered what was going on. I thought it was
8 the garbage trucks, and I wondered how come they were so loud that
9 morning. But no. Then I looked out through the window and I saw there
10 was no one was there, and I said, "My God, the war has started." And then
11 I got ready to go to work, and then I heard the siren.
12 However, I went because it was my duty to help people, although I
13 worked in the administration. But I did go to work. When I got to work,
14 the shelling started. This aircraft flying so low, and Srdj was targeted
15 with a cluster bomb. My goodness. I thought this was a movie, as if it
16 weren't true. It was as if this was a movie, this horror movie right in
17 front of my own eyes, a -- and I never even liked such movies. It was
19 Q. Could you identify the aircraft that was targeting Srdj? Which
20 side did it belong to?
21 A. The Yugoslav People's Army, unfortunately.
22 Q. Do you remember any damage to the Old Town as a result of shelling
23 on the 1st of October?
24 A. I think Sponza was targeted too, and then St. Blaise church was
25 hit. It underwent reconstruction then. Then the Franciscan cloister was
1 targeted then too, I think, and then afterwards on the 6th of December,
2 1991, and that's about it.
3 Q. Okay. I'm only asking you about the 1st of October at the moment.
4 Now, there was shelling on the 1st of October. Was there any other
5 shelling that you remember in October?
6 A. There were many. Then the Rupe museum was hit too. I remember
7 that, but the date, I mean I have really forgotten the date. I didn't
8 write down the dates. My husband did. He wrote down all the dates, but I
9 really don't know.
10 Q. What about November? Do you remember any occasions of shelling in
11 the Old Town in November? If you don't, please feel free to say you don't
13 A. I will tell you that there was shelling in October and in
14 November. I can't remember the exact dates, but there was shelling
15 certainly. We did not go into the shelter because we had this terrible
16 aversion towards it. It was awful.
17 Then we sought shelter at the neighbours across the street,
18 because his door was firmer and there was an agency there. So that's
19 where we tried to hide. I don't know. But we went there all the time
20 instead of to the shelter, the regular shelter.
21 Q. I'd ask you to pause there. You've mentioned shelters. Where was
22 the nearest shelter to your house on corner of Stradun and Od Sigurate?
23 A. Minceta, Fort Minceta, which is again rock solid. I was an
24 optimist all my life, but that didn't come to much, did it.
25 Q. Did you spend the night of the 5th of December, 1991, in your
1 house on Od Sigurate too?
2 A. Yes. Yes. But every evening there was a bit of gunfire. They
3 were really taking it out on us. They wanted to frighten us. They were
4 shooting all the time. For a while I couldn't even sleep because of these
5 detonations. My window would get all lit up. I mean, I'm not really very
6 knowledgeable about these military things, but these bullets, the ones
7 that would light up everything, they would wake me up.
8 What was that, sorry?
9 Q. I'm just interrupting you, asking you to pause. I'm going to take
10 you through what happened on the 6th of December, but I just want you to
11 listen to the question and follow -- and follow it in a sequence.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You just told the Trial Chamber you spent the night of the 5th of
14 December at your home. I want to move to what happened the next morning.
15 What time did you wake up?
16 A. Very early. Detonations woke me up. I was getting ready, in
17 spite of everything, to go to work. At that time I worked in Medarevo.
18 However, the detonations were stronger and stronger. And then I changed
19 my clothes. I put on my house clothes and my clogs, but everything
20 started very early. First I looked through the window and --
21 Q. Just go back. The question was, what time did you wake up?
22 A. Well, around 5.30 approximately. Early. Early. Before 6.00. It
23 must have been before 6.00. I can't remember exactly now.
24 Q. Could you describe the volume of the detonations that you heard
25 when you woke up.
1 A. Oh, very strong, very strong at first. Very strong.
2 Q. Where were they coming from? Could you say from which direction
3 they were coming from?
4 A. It seemed to me that they were coming from all sides. I really
5 can't say.
6 Q. You said you looked at the window. Which window did you go to?
7 A. The window of Sigurate number 2. So that's the western side. I
8 looked through the window, and I saw that Srdj was being shelled, and
9 there were very strong detonations. But house is close to this hill,
11 Q. Was it light or dark when you woke up?
12 A. Well, it was sort of half dark. It was already dawning or,
13 rather, it had already dawned but not completely. So you couldn't see
14 much. Well, we couldn't see much because we had no electricity or water,
15 that is.
16 Q. What was it that led you to conclude that Srdj was being shelled?
17 What did you see?
18 A. Well, it was targeted, it was hit, and all of a sudden I saw this
19 fire, this explosion, this terrible explosion. I don't know how to
20 describe this, this terrible noise. And then dust went up as if something
21 had been blown up sort of.
22 Q. Was that on Srdj?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Where did you go from your window?
25 A. Yes. My sister insisted that we go downstairs, that it was safer
1 at the first level of this house of ours, but I didn't want to go. As a
2 matter of fact, I took a book to read because I said, "No, no." And then
3 she said, "Let's take some photographs. Let's do something about this,
4 perhaps even the worst can happen to us." And I said, "No, no," but then
5 we did go downstairs.
6 Q. How long did you remain downstairs?
7 A. Well, you see, it seems to me that it was 45 years. Perhaps it
8 was 45 minutes or something like that. Anyway, we went down there around
9 6.00 o'clock, and we were there for about 45 minutes in this small space.
10 Q. What about the explosions? Were they continuing?
11 A. Continuing, yes, yes, and getting stronger and stronger.
12 Q. Where was your nephew that day?
13 A. My nephew, with his wife and his young son, had left ten days
14 before that. They went to Boninovo. That is to say, Branka Dilberovic
15 went to stay with her mother Veronika Vera. This is near the Boninovo
17 Q. Were your sister and -- sorry. Was your nephew and his wife there
18 that day?
19 A. Fortunately not. Otherwise, they all would have gotten killed,
20 I'm sure.
21 Q. What did you do as the explosions became stronger and stronger?
22 A. We went downstairs. I just took my jacket. Because it was so
23 noisy that, first of all, I thought I'd go deaf. I thought that if I
24 lived through that, I could never hear again. Shells were falling
25 incessantly above our heads, and there is this small window within this
1 space, and it is a barred window.
2 Q. Okay. I need you to describe for the Trial Chamber exactly where
3 you went to. You said you went downstairs. Where did you -- where is
4 downstairs, on which level of the four levels of your house?
5 A. The ground floor. The ground floor where the shop is and where
6 the warehouse is, where the very entrance into the house is.
7 Q. On Od Sigurate or Stradun?
8 A. Od Sigurate number 2.
9 Q. You have a doorway onto the street?
10 A. Yes. Yes, yes, yes.
11 Q. And do the stairs lead from the street to the first and second
13 A. No, not from the street. When you enter that house, there are
14 stairs that take you upstairs. So the stairs are further up. And we
15 enter on the right-hand side, and then we have some stairs within the
16 house itself.
17 Q. The space where you were with your sister, is that just behind the
18 door as you come in before the stairs?
19 A. After four stairs comes the narrow space near this small window,
20 the one with bars on it.
21 Q. How big is that space approximately?
22 A. I don't think that there is more than two square metres, perhaps
23 even less than that.
24 Q. Now, you said you went there with your sister. Now what about
25 Mrs. Matic? Where was she?
1 A. As for Mrs. Marija Matic, we first visited her at her apartment.
2 We brought her to the place where we were hiding too. The lady was quite
3 elderly. Had we left her there on her own, she certainly could not have
5 Q. How mobile was she at the age of 81 in 1991?
6 A. Well, I'll tell you, she was quite mobile. Perhaps she may even
7 be alive today. She was still around a year ago.
8 Q. There were three of you in this space several steps up from the
9 street level. What did you do there?
10 A. What did we do? We were standing there. We couldn't even move
11 our hands left or right, and we were praying to God for all of this to
12 pass, and we wondered why, why all of this was happening.
13 Q. What about the shelling that you described earlier as continuing
14 and getting stronger? What was happening with the shelling when you were
15 standing there with Mrs. Matic and your sister?
16 A. Above our heads. So that's the western side of our house above
17 our heads nonstop from all directions. From the sea, I think, and I don't
18 know, from the land, from everywhere, within split seconds. It was awful.
19 It was truly awful.
20 Q. What could you hear?
21 A. I heard this noise, and I even saw this - what do you call it? -
22 shrapnel, yes, shrapnel. If I had moved my hand or my arm, I would have
23 been hit for sure. It was like a torrent.
24 Q. How loud was the sound of the exploding of the shells from where
25 you were standing?
1 A. Terrible. I don't know how many decibels, really, but it was
2 unbearable, it defied description. I put my jacket on my ears, and I was
3 trembling in this small space there. There was no future for us. If we
4 stayed there, we'd got killed. If we went out, we'd got killed. So there
5 was nothing for us to do. We were in the hand of God.
6 Q. You said there was shrapnel. What did you see or hear?
7 A. I saw and heard shrapnel. I heard them and saw them falling like
8 a torrent, like rain. This is the ground floor, and then there is this
9 small window with bars, and shells were falling and shrapnel was all
10 around, and it was by sheer chance that not a single piece of shrapnel hit
12 Q. What did you see of this shrapnel when you looked out the window?
13 A. Well, I saw shrapnel made of lead flying at this terrible speed
14 coming from all sides.
15 Q. How long did you stay in that space with your sister and
16 Mrs. Matic?
17 A. I think I've already said this. About 45 minutes approximately.
18 I don't know exactly. That is just an approximation.
19 Q. Was your building hit?
20 A. Yes. Yes, from all sides. It was these guided missiles. Not
21 once. It seems to me that all of those that fell in town fell on our
23 Q. How do you know your -- I'm sorry. Was your building hit when you
24 were in the space with Mrs. Matic and your sister?
25 A. Yes. Yes.
1 Q. What did you hear? What did you -- what did you feel? What did
2 you see?
3 A. We heard noise. I've already said this. Terrible noise, these
4 detonations as if they were hammering into our heads. We felt like we
5 were having a heatstroke. We thought that we were finished. I already
6 said that if I moved my hand or arm, if I moved in that small space I
7 would have been hit by this because we saw this torrent of shrapnel.
8 Q. When you were downstairs, what was happening upstairs in your
10 A. At one moment there was destruction. The walls were probably
11 caving in. The plaster started falling, and there was this terrible
12 smoke. We thought that we would die the most terrible of deaths, that we
13 would be killed within this very own house of ours that we took such good
14 care of. That was it.
15 Q. What did you hear happening upstairs?
16 A. Upstairs there was this terrible destruction. I don't know. I
17 heard that things were breaking. It's as if it were an earthquake.
18 Perhaps I can put it that way. And I cannot tell you exactly how strong.
19 So everything was caving in and we were in this tiny space.
20 Q. What happened to the stairs?
21 A. Part of the staircase was totally destroyed. So later on when my
22 sister wanted to go upstairs, she couldn't go upstairs because half of the
23 staircase was destroyed. So she simply couldn't get there.
24 Q. You said things were breaking upstairs and it felt like an
25 earthquake and you were standing near the stairs. Did anything come down
1 the stairs towards you?
2 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, plaster. Plaster, stone. There was so
3 much dust. It was impossible. You could hardly see a thing downstairs.
4 You could hardly breathe. We needed gas masks in order not to suffocate.
5 As a matter of fact, we had even reconciled ourselves to the fact that we
6 would die.
7 Q. You said you felt like we were having a heatstroke. What do you
8 mean by that? Describe what you felt.
9 A. It was so hot. I'm not really knowledgeable about these things,
10 but we felt so hot in the face that it was impossible. We felt that way.
11 It felt like a heatstroke. I don't know.
12 Q. How did you get out of there?
13 A. This is the way it was: I was praying to God. I was listening to
14 all of this, and all of a sudden I heard a voice. I still hear this voice
15 until the present day every now and then. "Zineta, Zineta." It was a
16 neighbour, and we had become friends only shortly before that. This was
17 the husband of a neighbour and friend, Mr. Vladimir Srhoj. They got
18 married just before that, and I heard him calling out to me, "Zineta."
19 And I said, "Yes." And he got out of his apartment, and we opened the
20 door. There was still shooting going on all the time. The house had not
21 been set on fire yet.
22 So we went out of the house with Mrs. Marija, and it was
23 Mr. Vladimir who helped us. We went out on the street. It was terrible
24 out there on the street. We were walking on shards of glass and stone and
25 rocks, all sorts of construction material debris. We were so worried what
1 would happen to us then. We got to an apartment. I already said that it
2 was a rather firmly built apartment. So that was our salvation. However,
3 when we came there hoping that we would be rescued in that way, again a
4 shell fell. Unfortunately, it did not go down all the way. It made a
5 hole in the roof.
6 We hid in the downstairs toilet, and again we felt this
7 heatstroke, this redness. It threw us. It was quite unbelievable. And
8 then -- well, that's it.
9 Q. Is that Mr. Vladimir Srhoj's apartment that you went to?
10 A. Yes, yes, the ground floor. Not the actual apartment where he
11 lived but the ground floor of that house.
12 Q. What number is it in the street?
13 A. I think it is Od Sigurate number 4, not 5, because the festival
14 building is 1, we are 2, then -- now, let me think. 4 or 5. 4 or 5, I
16 Q. You mentioned before that your building was not on fire when you
17 went to Mr. Srhoj's place. What happened to your building?
18 A. After that, these guided missiles came right through the window
19 from the western side and the southern side. This is an inflammatory
20 missile, I think.
21 So the house was hit, and it started burning. It was first the
22 curtains that started burning. There were beautiful curtains from Venice.
23 I wish I still had photographs of that house. I wish I had taken that
24 out. But within a few seconds, everything burnt down. Our entire lives.
25 I felt as if I had lost my identity. My family, people who lived with me,
1 all my memories, all of our memories. Terrible.
2 Q. Where were you when your house was hit by the shell that caused it
3 to burn down?
4 A. In front. We were in front of that house, the house belonging to
5 my neighbour Mr. Vladimir Srhoj. We stood there and watched what was
6 happening, and there was shooting all the time.
7 Q. What did you -- I just want you to tell the Trial Chamber what you
8 saw in terms of a missile or a shell going through the window? Which
9 window was it?
10 A. From the western side on the second floor, rather, the third
11 level. It was a direct hit, and I assume that it was an incendiary shell
12 because it set fire to it. Now, the house had been practically destroyed
13 and now this finished it off, by setting fire to it.
14 Q. What about the Festival Palace? Was it on fire at that point?
15 A. Not at that point, no, but sometime later it was set fire to as
16 well. It was aflame. And one of our neighbours had a well, and we tried
17 to use the water because there wasn't otherwise any water, but we tried to
18 do what we could with these cans of water. We tried to save our own
19 house. That was impossible. And our neighbour's house, but we did manage
20 to save one house which follows on from our neighbour's house, because the
21 fire didn't spread after that. From the Od Sigurate and the Kantun street
22 by the festival house, we were able to control the fire from spreading.
23 And we were all involved, men and women, and it was very difficult because
24 there was shooting and shelling on all sides. Our hair was on fire, but
25 we were in a state of shock. I really don't know. I can't say. We did
1 what we could.
2 Q. About what time did your house catch fire?
3 A. I think it was about 10.00 o'clock. Around 10.00. But of course
4 we lost all track of time.
5 Q. Did fire-fighters come when your house --
6 A. Yes, yes. They came urgently, it was an emergency. But
7 unfortunately we weren't able to save anything. We were left completely
8 naked. I was wearing my slippers or clogs, and it was a very cold day,
9 and we felt the cold even more in our hearts.
10 Q. In case it wasn't clear before, you said a -- just to clarify
11 something, you said a shell hit your neighbour's roof. That's Mr. Srhoj's
12 roof. Can you describe the damage to his house by that shell?
13 A. It didn't cause great damage, but it made a roof -- a hole in the
14 roof. So it was minor damage, and he was able to deal with it himself and
15 repair it.
16 Q. And in case I missed something before, were you inside the ground
17 floor of his building when it hit or were you outside?
18 A. Inside. Inside at that time. Inside in the ground floor.
19 Q. What did you do after your house burnt down?
20 A. Nothing. We -- well, we tried to put the fire out. We didn't
21 succeed, and then went back to our neighbour's ground floor and waited
22 there helpless. We stayed until the evening. We lost all track of time.
23 As I said, we didn't know when it was day, night. We lost our orientation
24 in space, in time. And then Mrs. Branka Dilberovic's brother came to
25 fetch us, Mladen was his name, and took us off to his house at Boninovo.
1 Q. When did you return to the Old Town?
2 A. On the 7th, in the morning. We were in shock.
3 Q. Where did you go?
4 A. We went back to the place that we had experienced those terrible
5 moments. Stradun looked terrible. The street looked terrible. Every
6 house looked dreadful. And everything was damaged to one house,
7 destroyed. Just four walls remained standing.
8 Q. You went back to your street where you lived for years. Was the
9 street damaged? I'm sorry, were buildings in the street damaged apart
10 from your own?
11 A. I think they were, but I looked at mine mostly. The Od Puca
12 Street was badly damaged, and the Mala Braca church. That was hit too.
13 Q. Was there damage to the walls of the houses in Od Puca?
14 A. Yes. Yes, yes, yes.
15 Q. What did you see? Describe the damage.
16 A. You mean on my own house or the houses in the Od Puca Street?
17 Q. In Od Puca Street.
18 A. Well, the same thing. Everything was burnt. The window frames
19 were black. The glass shattered. The frames broken, just like on our own
20 house. It had burnt down completely. Several of them, in fact.
21 Q. Is that in Od Puca Street or in your street that several houses
22 had burnt down?
23 A. Od Puca Street was also -- there were also several houses there
24 which had burnt down like our house. However, on the Stradun there were
25 only two houses like that, the Festival Palace building and our own
1 house. They were in that state, a sorry state.
2 Q. Going back to your own street and the damage to houses in Od
3 Puca -- in Od Sigurate Street. Can you describe generally the damage to
4 buildings, windows, doors in that street? Leaving your own house out for
5 the moment.
6 A. My neighbour's roof. And then in my street the monastery. There
7 was major damage there, but that was up above. It's the same street, but
8 you go up some stairs, and it's the second half of the street on the left
9 opposite me. This was the highest point. And the monastery was damaged
10 there, and it suffered heavy damage during the war.
11 As far as I remember, there wasn't any other damage in our street.
12 Q. You described earlier hearing or seeing shrapnel in the street
13 when you were in the space near the stairs. Did you see anything to
14 indicate that shrapnel had fallen in the street?
15 A. Well, it was a torrent of shrapnel, and if that was the case, it
16 fell on the street, where else?
17 Q. Did you see any damage to any buildings as a result of that --
18 from that shrapnel?
19 A. You mean mine or other buildings, other houses?
20 Q. I'm only talking about the street at the moment.
21 A. Oh, I see, the street. No, I didn't notice that or as much.
22 Q. I want you to describe the state of your own house when you came
23 back on the 7th of December. What did you see?
24 A. Well, it was like this: You could see the sky up above, so all
25 that remained standing were the four walls. The windows were all black
1 or, rather, the window frames were all black. They were split quite a bit
2 on the second and first floor, from the west and on the southern side as
3 well. And on the south, the door frames had burnt down completely as well
4 as part of the stone. It was all black. As you know -- I don't know how
5 stone burns, but anyway, it was all black. I don't know if it was burnt.
6 And then from the south side, there was a vertical crack, a very
7 large vertical crack from the windows of the first floor to the roof. And
8 as far as I remember now, whether that is correct or not, but this is how
9 I remember it, from -- on the western side there was large vertical crack,
10 once again, on the walls. And inside everything had burnt down to the
11 ground. So the house was completely burnt down on the inside.
12 Q. And just so we're clear, the Od Sigurate Street is the western
13 side and Stradun is the southern side; is that right?
14 A. Yes, yes, that's true.
15 Q. What about the Festival Palace? Describe the damage you saw to
16 the Festival Palace.
17 A. Well, it was in the same state, like our house mostly. As for the
18 details, I really can't remember. I was more interested in my own house.
19 I saw that it had been burnt, but I can't tell you about the details. I
20 didn't remember any.
21 Q. I'm going to show you two clips from a video which is in evidence,
22 that is P78, which was tendered during Mr. Jusic's evidence. And for the
23 record, I'm showing the witness a clip starting at time at 23:40 seconds.
24 [Videotape played]
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the festival building.
1 That's the Manon [phoen] cafe. That's my house with the coat of arms,
2 that one.
3 MR. RE:
4 Q. That's at 24:13.
5 A. Yes, yes. That's the house. You -- this is what Dubrovnik looked
6 like on the 7th of December. Here you have it. See for yourselves.
7 Q. We move now to the second clip. The time at 25:13.
8 [Videotape played]
9 MR. RE:
10 Q. Again, is that a view of your house and the Festival Palace?
11 A. Yes. That's the festival building.
12 Q. 25:39. Can you indicate what street that is at 25:56 or 57?
13 A. I think that was my street. Od Sigurate I think that was.
14 Q. They're very short clips. I'll just play the two through again
15 starting with clip one, and I want you to tell the Trial Chamber the
16 different -- if you can see the different floors.
17 [Videotape played]
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the festival building.
19 Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.
20 MR. RE: Just for the record, we're going back to the first clip.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Uh-huh. That's the boutique.
22 That's the ground floor of the festival building. Uh-huh. This is my
23 building, was my building.
24 MR. RE: Stop there.
25 Q. We just stopped at 24:10. Is that the --
1 A. Ten, yes.
2 Q. Is that the first floor of the building where Mrs. Matic lived?
3 A. Yes, the first floor, yes.
4 Q. You can --
5 A. Except -- I apologise. The windows faced west. So on the first
6 floor, Dr. Pjerotic had his surgery, and there was another family, one of
7 the proprietors, actually, the Murati family, so that was part of their
8 section, but they lived there for a short time and left. Of course
9 Mrs. Matic lived in Od Sigurate, too, facing the street, facing number 2.
10 Q. Just looking at what we can see on the screen, is the top two
11 floors and the loft or the attic part.
12 A. Yes, yes, yes.
13 Q. Two windows at the top, and this is at time 24:19. The top two
14 floors, the top two windows, was that where you lived?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And the loft we can see above the third window to the right. Was
17 that your loft?
18 A. No. That was our neighbour's, belonged to one of our neighbours.
19 Q. Is your loft no longer there?
20 A. No.
21 Q. And the view we're looking at is looking from Stradun onto your
22 building; is that correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. You described a shell going through a window. Was it one of the
25 windows we can see in this particular still?
1 A. I think so, yes.
2 Q. Which one do you think it was?
3 A. I think it was the first one, the left one.
4 [Videotape played]
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's so black.
6 MR. RE:
7 Q. I've just stopped it at 24:28. There's a man standing in front of
8 two windows on the ground floor. Is that the commercial premises, the
9 warehouse or the shop that you were referring to before?
10 A. This was the entrance to the shop, and it had a shop window, of
12 [Videotape played]
13 MR. RE: I wish to tender those particular clips into evidence.
14 They're already part of P78. Do Your Honours wish them tendered
15 separately or to be identified as part of the -- part of the earlier
16 exhibit? We've prepared two.
17 JUDGE PARKER: You have these as a separate piece of film, do you?
18 MR. RE: We've cut them and we can submit them separately. Not
19 right at this second, but we can certainly submit the two portions which
20 have been identified separately.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Well, that -- given our practice, that should have
22 a separate exhibit number.
23 MR. RE: May it please the Court.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours -- Your Honours, the first clip could
25 be Exhibit P87, and the second clip P88.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
2 MR. RE:
3 Q. I also wish to show you a map of Dubrovnik. It's a copy of P13.
4 Mrs. Ogresta, if you look to your left -- just turn to your left.
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. And I want you to mark on that map. I want you to draw a square.
7 What -- what colour is that one?
8 MR. USHER: Blue.
9 MR. RE:
10 Q. Where your house was on the corner of Od Sigurate and Stradun.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. You've drawn a little X. Could you just make it a little more
13 large and distinct for the exhibit, please.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Is that quite clear with blue or would Your Honours prefer a red
16 or green or something bolder?
17 JUDGE PARKER: It seems quite clear at the moment.
18 MR. RE:
19 Q. Mrs. Ogresta, could you just put some lines around it like as in a
20 square, around the X.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Thank you. And can you also just write your name at the bottom
23 and sign it and write the date on it. And the date is the 3rd of March.
24 A. [Marks]
25 MR. RE: Might that be tendered into evidence?
1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, it will be received.
2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P89, Your Honours.
3 MR. RE:
4 Q. I'm going to show you some -- another document, Ms. Ogresta. It's
5 a portion of a report. That's MFI 51, which is known as the institute
6 report. I'm showing the witness ERN numbers 01069448 through to 01069458.
7 I just want you to have a look at the document. It's a report.
8 Just have a look at the front page and the next page which is a summary
9 followed by a number of photographs.
10 MR. RE: And Your Honours will note there's a translation at the
11 back of this bundle of papers. The last three pages of the translation.
12 Q. So if you could just take a moment to read that to yourself,
13 Mrs. Ogresta.
14 A. On the main front, the front of the building, is that what you
16 Q. I just want you to read --
17 A. [In English] Yes.
18 Q. -- read the first page and the second page.
19 A. [Interpretation] In Croatian, mean?
20 Q. Yes. Just to yourself. Not out loud.
21 A. [In English] Excuse me. [Interpretation] I apologise.
22 Q. All right. Going to the first photograph -- I withdraw that.
23 The report describes some damage to a house at Od Sigurate 2. The
24 question is simply this: Is this referring to your palace? Yes or no?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Turn to the photograph -- the first --
2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Re, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I wonder as
3 you're about to undertake what I think may be something that will take a
4 little time, we might have the morning break, the first of them, now
5 before going through the photographs.
6 We will have a break for 20 minutes.
7 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Re.
10 MR. RE:
11 Q. Turning to the first photograph, that's photograph 24, 01069450 is
12 the number on the top. Is that a photograph depicting damage to your
13 house or palace from -- on the Stradun side?
14 A. Yes, that is what can be seen. Please look at the door frame. It
15 burned down completely. And also the wall going from the ground floor to
16 the first floor around this stone wreath. All of that burned down. And
17 you can see that the walls are still there, but the entire interior burned
18 down. The windows are cracked and burned, as far as I can see. And
19 that's the way I saw it myself as a layman.
20 Q. And does this show the damage that you saw to your house on the
21 7th of December, 1991?
22 A. Yes, precisely. What is written here is correct. Of course, they
23 use expert terms so I wouldn't be competent to discuss that because I'm
24 not an architect by training, so I wouldn't go into all of that right now,
25 but this is the way I remember it, yes.
1 Q. Earlier in your evidence you referred to, I think, being in the
2 street and seeing what I think you described as a missile going through a
3 window. Just go back for a moment to that.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You were then in Od Sigurate Street. That's around the corner
6 from what's depicted in this photograph?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And when you looked at the --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When you looked at the video which is Exhibit -- was it 88?
11 JUDGE PARKER: 87 and 88.
12 MR. RE: Thank you.
13 Q. Exhibit 87, a still of that same shot of the house, you said you
14 thought a missile went through that window. When you were saying that,
15 was it something you actually saw or was it an assumption?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You said you were standing in -- around the corner in Od Sigurate
18 Street. So when you --
19 A. No. No, I didn't see it. No, I really didn't see that. But from
20 the west side, yes, I saw that. It whizzed by and I heard this detonation
21 and it was set to fire.
22 Q. You said you were standing in Od Sigurate Street when your house
23 was hit by an incendiary shell. Did you see something go through a window
24 on the Od Sigurate side?
25 A. Yes. Yes, I did see something, something flying. I don't know.
1 I heard a detonation, and I heard something whiz by. As for the details,
2 I really couldn't tell you about that. And then it was on fire. So I
3 assumed that it was this incendiary, guided missile.
4 Q. Did you look up when you heard something?
5 A. Yes, I did look up, and I saw the house on fire. First it was the
6 curtain that was on fire, and then everything caught fire all the way down
7 to the bottom. It burned down very fast.
8 Q. What I'm asking you is, was it the sound of the detonation, as you
9 described it, to look up and see that your house was on fire?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And what sort of time period are we talking about between you
12 hearing this noise and seeing your house on fire?
13 A. Soon after the noise and the whizzing sound, very soon. I think
14 that they said that something was not activated. I didn't see that, but
15 that is what I heard from other people, that there were such kinds as
17 Q. I'm just wanting you to tell the Trial Chamber is the conclusion
18 you have drawn on what went into your house, is that based on an
19 assumption and things that other people told you rather than what you
20 actually saw yourself?
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I think that the lady on several
24 occasions said very decidedly what it was that she saw, before the break
25 and now. I can even give you the exact lines. I don't see what Mr. Re is
1 trying to do now. The lady said what she saw, and I think that we should
2 all be grateful to her for that, rather than try now in the
3 examination-in-chief to relativise [sic] what the lady said. So I object
4 to this line of questioning by Mr. Re at this point.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Re, as I understand it, you're trying to get
6 clear whether the witness is speaking from personal observation or from an
7 inference based on partly what she saw and partly what she was told.
8 MR. RE: That's correct.
9 JUDGE PARKER: That's the position, Mr. Petrovic. I think it
10 would be proper to allow the questioning. It's merely trying to make
11 clear whether she really did see what she described or whether she's just
12 reached that conclusion from what others may have said together with what
13 she saw.
14 So carry on, Mr. Re.
15 MR. RE:
16 Q. Ms. Ogresta, do you understand what I'm asking you? What I'm
17 asking you is -- the first part is, do you understand what I'm asking you?
18 I'm asking you whether when you say you saw something go into your window
19 and you described it as a missile and -- is that based upon what you saw,
20 heard, and what other people have told you?
21 A. I saw something fly in, and I heard a detonation, and after that,
22 the fire started. What it was exactly, I don't know, but it was obviously
23 something that had set our house on fire. That I did see.
24 Q. Move to the next photograph which is number 25, 01069451. What is
25 that a photograph of?
1 A. My street from the west side, the entrance. This is the entrance,
2 and this little window is where we had sought shelter, where we hid. You
3 see all the rocks out here. Everything was destroyed. All of it crumbled
4 from the top to the bottom.
5 Q. Can you just put the photograph on the ELMO to your left. The
6 usher will assist you. And I just want you to get a pen, one that will
7 show up on the -- on the black, and circle the window. Do a large circle
8 around the window.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. Can you just to make it a bit clearer, could you draw an arrow
11 from the left-hand side of the page pointing towards where the window --
12 where your circle is. Can you do it right from the left-hand side where
13 the -- which is clear, please. Just a straight line right from the white
14 part on the left-hand side of the page.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters cannot hear the witness. We're
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]
18 MR. RE:
19 Q. Thank you. Now, is that the doorway to your house?
20 A. Yes, this is the doorway.
21 Q. You've just drawn a cross on the doorway. You can see --
22 A. [In English] Yes.
23 Q. What is it you can see spilling out into the street from the
25 A. [Interpretation] This -- this is debris, rocks due to the
1 destruction, of course. First there was destruction and then there was
3 Q. Does this photograph accurately depict what you saw when you
4 returned on the 7th of December, 1991?
5 A. Yes, precisely. That's how we left in the evening.
6 Q. Turn now to the next photograph which is number 26, ERN 01069452.
7 It seems to be a photograph taken looking upwards. What is that a
8 photograph of?
9 A. [In English] Stradun. Od Sigurate.
10 Q. You've just drawn on the left-hand side of the page "Od Sigurate,"
11 and on the bottom of the page "Stradun."
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You indicate that the part of the building which is on the
14 left-hand side is in Od Sigurate and the part which is --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. [Previous translation continues]... on Stradun. Now, is that a
17 photograph of your building?
18 A. Yes, that's true.
19 Q. And does it accurately depict the inside of your building as you
20 saw it on the 7th of December, 1991?
21 A. Yes, identical to this photograph.
22 Q. Please turn to the next photograph which is photo number 27,
23 number 01069453.
24 A. What can be seen is the stone shelves with the ornaments. And we
25 see the cracks between the second and the third levels of the building,
1 also the stairs leading to our floor.
2 Q. The stone shelves which you've just indicated as in the centre of
3 the photograph, centre at the top of the photograph, were they the ones
4 you were describing earlier this morning of the in-built shelving?
5 A. Yes. There was another set like that on my floor, and this is
6 between the second and the third level. It was close to the stairs,
8 Q. Please turn to the next photograph which is photograph number 28,
9 0169 -- sorry, 01069454. This appears to be another copy of
10 photograph 26?
11 A. The same.
12 Q. As photograph 26. Turn now to photograph number 29. That's
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. What can you tell the Trial Chamber about that photo which appears
16 to be the interior of a burnt out building?
17 A. Yes. The right-hand side is Od Sigurate Street and the left-hand
18 side is the Stradun side, as far as I can see. Again, the interior which
19 was destroyed, razed to the ground.
20 Q. And you've written on the left-hand side above the corner of the
21 building "Stradun," and on the right-hand side above the building
22 "Od Sigurate." I'm saying that for the record.
23 A. Yes. Yes.
24 Q. If you look through the two windows on the right-hand side of the
25 photograph -- just turn to the -- if you just turn to the --
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I'm sorry. You have it there. What can you see through those two
4 A. You mean on the left-hand side?
5 Q. On the right-hand side of the photo there's two large windows
6 below the cornices. Yes. That's where --
7 A. That's the warehouse. That's the ground floor. That must be the
8 door. Probably the door, the door leading to this warehouse, I think.
9 Q. Turn --
10 A. Not the warehouse that was in our building but next door.
11 Q. Next door? Can you see Od Sigurate Street through those windows?
12 A. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Our windows, we had about six of them
13 facing Od Sigurate, Od Sigurate number 2. Imagine, I don't even know how
14 many there were any more.
15 Q. Turn to the next photograph, photograph 30. That's 01069456. Do
16 you know what that is a photograph of?
17 A. Of course this is the interior but from the north, somewhere from
18 the north. So one of the neighbours. So it's the interior, too, further
19 on from our building.
20 Q. Can I just take you back. I neglected to ask you in
21 photograph 29. Did that accurately depict the damage to the interior of
22 your palace as you saw it on the 7th of December, 1991?
23 A. Yes. Yes. Identical to this photograph as far as I can remember.
24 Q. Turn now to photograph number 31, 01069457.
25 A. That's it. That's it. It's like a build-in cupboard. Destroyed,
1 burned down.
2 Q. Can you just go book to photograph 27. Is that -- is
3 photograph 31 an enlargement of the stone shelving shown in photograph 27?
4 A. Yes. Yes.
5 Q. Now, please turn to photograph 32. A moment ago I took you to
6 photograph 29. If you could look at 29 and 32 together. 32 appears to be
7 a more wide-angled shot of photograph 29. And photograph 32 is 01069458.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Looking at photograph 32 can you see all three floors without the
10 loft in your building there?
11 A. Yes. The ground floor -- no. One, two. I see only two. I see
12 only two here.
13 Q. All right. What about at the bottom? The levels, not the floor,
14 the levels.
15 A. The levels. Yes. Yes. The loft isn't there.
16 Q. And again, does this photograph accurately depict what you saw
17 when you returned to your house on the 7th of December, 1991?
18 A. That's what it looked like. And even worse, perhaps, in my eyes.
19 Q. When you returned, there had been a fire the day before. Was the
20 fire still burning or smouldering?
21 A. No. No. It was no longer burning. No smoke could be seen
23 Q. I want you to turn now to the description at the -- on the front
24 page of the report. In Croatian, please, the front page. I want you to
25 go to the part that says, "Description of damage." And it says, I'm
1 reading the English translation: "Completely gutted building with burnt
2 and demolished roof and all floors."
3 Does that accurately depict what you saw on the 7th of December
4 when you came back to your house?
5 A. Yes, it is accurately except for these details. I mean, I really
6 don't know how to say that. The roof --
7 Q. Mrs. Ogresta, I'm only talking about that line. We'll do if --
8 A. Yes, yes, yes, yes. This is correct, yes.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mrs. Ogresta was
10 giving an answer and she was interrupted. I would kindly ask that
11 Mrs. Ogresta be allowed to finish her answer. Thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said a few minutes ago that I'm
13 not competent to use expert terms, but as far as I can see, yes, this is
15 MR. RE:
16 Q. I'm doing it line by line for my learned friend's benefit, and
17 also of course clarify anything like that as we go.
18 Turn to the next part. Main -- the heading says -- is "Facade or
19 fronts of the building." It says: "Main front due to high temperature
20 completely burnt out and cracked door frames (number 46 and 47 on the
21 chart.)" Did you see completely burnt and cracked door frames?
22 A. Yes, I did see that. I think I've already said that.
23 Q. The next part says: "Completely carbonised stones in the
24 ground-floor wall (up to the cornice between the ground floor and the
25 first floor)." What can you say about that, the completely carbonised
1 stones in the ground-floor wall?
2 A. It was all black. You can see it on the photographs for
3 yourselves. Totally charred. The door, too, and the door frame, as far
4 as I can remember.
5 Q. The next sentence is: "Also torched and broken window frames."
6 It's got "mullions" in -- with a question mark, "on the 1st and 2nd
7 floors, west side of the front." Is that accurate?
8 A. Yes. Yes. That is accurate, that is correct.
9 Q. The next line is: "Carbonised and partially broken stone roof
10 cornice and the supporting corbels." Is that accurate?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. The following line says: "Vertical crack in front wall, extending
13 from the transom above the west window on the 1st floor, along the
14 right-hand pin of the 2nd floor window and up to the roof cornice."
15 Now, earlier in your evidence you described a crack to the front
16 wall. Is what is described in that, in that line there accord with what
17 you saw when you returned on the 7th of December?
18 A. Yes. Yes. On the west side of the house and on the south side of
19 the house, the identical vertical crack. I think I said that even before
20 this report.
21 Q. Going to the next line: "West front - also carbonised and cracked
22 window frames, mullions, and the entire stone roof gutter above this
23 front." Again, does that accurately reflect what you saw when you
24 returned on the 7th of December?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. The next line: "Both entrance doors to the ground floor show
2 traces of fire." Did you see that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Next: "A vertical crack at the south end of this front extending
5 from the ground floor, along the 1st and 2nd floor windows up to the roof
6 cornice. Identical cracks extend along the south-end windows on this
8 Likewise, same question, does that accurately reflect the damage,
9 the cracking damage you saw when you returned on the 7th of December?
10 A. Correct. Absolutely correct.
11 Q. Now, Ms. Ogresta, I'll come back to the document a little bit
12 later. I'm now going to ask you about the military presence, if any, in
13 the Old Town in October, November, and December 1991. You've told the
14 Trial Chamber that you lived in the Old Town throughout that period. Were
15 you aware of any military installations, fortifications, or armaments in
16 the Old Town in that period?
17 A. No. There was nothing in the Old Town, no soldiers, no weapons.
18 Q. Were you aware of the protected status under UNESCO of the Old
19 Town in 1991?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you see anything around the Old Town to indicate that it had
22 this UNESCO protected status?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you ever see any flags?
25 A. Yes, yes, I did. On the ramparts and on St. Ivan. I think there
1 was a blue flag with something white on it, a blue flag.
2 Q. What effect, if any, did the fact of UNESCO protection have on the
3 people of Dubrovnik and the Old Town? What did they feel or think about
5 A. Well, we felt safe.
6 Q. I've showed you some photographs from what we call the institute
7 report. Were any photographs taken on the day when your house was
9 A. Yes, the very same day the late Miroslav Kelner photographed the
10 burning house.
11 Q. Have you seen those photographs?
12 A. Yes, I have. They were displayed at an exhibition in Dubrovnik.
13 Q. Where are those photographs now?
14 A. Probably his mother has them or the late Miroslav Kelner's wife.
15 And I assume -- well, I don't know. Perhaps some friends have several
16 copies. I don't have any, but I saw the exhibition. Of course you can
17 access the photographs if you need them.
18 Q. Have you or your husband made any attempts to find these
19 photographs to bring them to court?
20 A. Yes, my husband did try, did attempt to find them, and I think he
21 did get them. If I need to bring them in, there is probably a way in
22 which that could be done, brought into this Honourable Tribunal. I don't
23 know what the ways and means are.
24 MR. RE: The only other thing with this witness's evidence, Your
25 Honours, is I move to tender this extract of the institute report MFI P51
1 into evidence.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic.
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence, with
4 pleasure, can observe that Mr. Re, in a satisfactory manner, demonstrated
5 the -- an approach as to how a damage can be established with relation to
6 certain buildings mentioned in the report P51. He did that in a very
7 efficacious way, and he moved the witness through the damage and in a very
8 satisfactory way created the foundations for the document he wishes to
9 tender. All the Defence can do at this point is to encourage this kind of
10 attitude and approach and to say that with respect to this particular
11 exhibit which is being tendered, the Defence has no objections to it being
12 admitted into evidence. Thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.
14 It will be received.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P90.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Is there any cross-examination, Mr. Petrovic?
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Of course, Your Honour, yes.
18 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrovic:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mrs. Ogresta. I am lawyer Vladimir
20 Petrovic, Defence counsel for General Strugar, and with your permission, I
21 should like to ask you several questions with respect to the testimony
22 here before Their Honours today.
23 A. Thank you.
24 Q. Tell me, please, first of all what your profession is.
25 A. I am a pensioner and have an invalidity pension, disabled pension.
1 Q. As we're speaking the same language, would you pause between
2 question and answer to give the interpreters a chance to translate what
3 we're saying.
4 A. Yes, no problem there. I will.
5 Q. Tell me what did you do before you retired? What kind of work did
6 you do?
7 A. I was an administrator, a medical administrator or, rather, an
8 administrator in the health service.
9 Q. What schooling have you had?
10 A. I graduated from secondary school.
11 Q. Could you please tell us exactly where you were working in October
12 1991, October 1991. As far as I understood it, you were working in the
13 health centre. So where did you go from there? Just slowly, please.
14 Take it slowly.
15 A. Yes, I worked at the health centre in the microbiology laboratory,
16 and when the war broke out, we moved to Medarevo because there was a
17 better shelter there. It was a new building, but it hadn't been
18 completely -- it wasn't completely operational. But from the old
19 hospital, as we all belong to the same company, we helped transfer it,
20 transfer the patients, and although I'm not a nurse myself, I did help in
21 the transport of patients to Medarevo which was a more secure area rather
22 than the old hospital. And then I worked at Medarevo and later returned
23 to the health centre itself.
24 Q. I'm going to try and simplify this and you just tell me if I'm
25 right or not. The health centre that you worked in, was that located in
1 the building of the old hospital at Boninovo?
2 A. Within that compound, not in that very building but nearby.
3 Q. So that means that the health centre was in the compound of the
4 old hospital; is that right?
5 A. Yes, very close by.
6 Q. Now, if I remember well, that means that it's the part of town
7 where the old hospital was, the park called Gradac, and the Old Town; is
8 that right?
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 Q. In fact, if we take the old hospital, although we haven't got a
11 map in front of us, the park surrounding the old hospital is the park that
12 we called Gradac; is that right?
13 A. Well, no. It is before Gradac park. That's where the old
14 hospital is.
15 Q. Yes, but it's nearby.
16 A. It's fairly nearby. Not right next to it but fairly nearby.
17 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, the building of the new hospital,
18 where is that?
19 A. It's at Lapad called Medarevo. It is the St. Blaise hospital
20 which takes its name after the patron saint of Dubrovnik, St. Blaise.
21 Q. Tell me, please, Mrs. Ogresta, when and how did you come into
22 contact with the OTP investigators?
23 A. Quite by chance. After the 6th of December, 1991, I lost my home,
24 my identity. I had to go to a hotel, and I moved between 14 hotels and 50
25 hotel rooms. And I ended up in the hotel that was called Vis 2, and
1 that's how I came into contact with them. We had a conversation, an
2 informal talk, and I decided to be a witness, to come forward as a
4 Q. Yes, I do understand everything you told us here today in court,
5 but for the purposes of this Honourable Trial Chamber, would you try and
6 focus on my questions and ask me [as interpreted] what I'm asking you.
7 So my question was this: How did you come into contact with the
8 gentlemen from the investigating department? Did you look them out? Did
9 they look you out? What happened?
10 A. Through force of circumstance. The gentlemen from the Tribunal
11 came to the hotel, and we had an interview. That was, I think, in 1999 or
12 perhaps the year 2000. I really can't remember.
13 Q. Did they ask for you specifically?
14 A. No. No. We were refugees in the hotel, displaced persons, and it
15 was normal for us to tell our stories, our truths, something that we had
16 all experienced.
17 Q. Very well. Tell me, please, first did you tell the investigator
18 everything you considered to be relevant and important with respect to
19 what happened to you in those months of 1991?
20 A. Yes, I did for the most part.
21 Q. Did you tell him the most important points and things?
22 A. Yes, the most important things.
23 Q. And you did your best not to omit any of the important points?
24 A. I did my best as far as I was able to, because a lot of time has
25 gone by since then.
1 Q. Tell me, please, of what happened on the 1st of October. What
2 exactly did you see and where did you see it from? Just briefly.
3 A. The 1st of October, when I got up I heard shells, explosions, but
4 that was a little further away, not very near to the town. And then this
5 intensified, and I thought that the dustmen were sweeping the streets, but
6 I looked out of the window and it wasn't that. The sirens sounded. There
7 was general confusion, people going hither and thither. That's what
9 Q. That's what you heard. What did you actually see?
10 A. Yes, that's what I heard. I saw a plane shelling Srdj. I could
11 see that from the health centre.
12 Q. And what bombs were used to attack Srdj, the transmitter?
13 A. Probably cluster bombs.
14 Q. Tell me, please, madam, how do you know what cluster bombs are?
15 Have you had any experience with them? Have you ever become acquainted
16 with cluster bombs? How come you know what a cluster bomb is?
17 A. That's what I assumed. I heard they were cluster bombs, although
18 I'm not well-versed in terminology of that kind, and that's a good thing
19 because it's terrible for the people.
20 Q. Well, I assume you never saw the likes ever before in your life.
21 A. No. I saw a shell and shrapnel on the street for the first time
22 then. I'd never seen anything like that before.
23 Q. Well, tell me then, please, how did you assume that it was this
24 particular type of bomb, a cluster bomb?
25 A. Well, we were in a group when we looked at all this going on, and
1 people would talk, and I assume someone knew. Of all my friends there,
2 someone must have known, I assume.
3 Q. I should now like to focus on what you were actually able to see
4 from your own house. Today you told us that you had windows looking onto
5 two sides, if I understood you correctly.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. That means your windows, the windows of your apartment face the
8 Stradun on one side. That is to say they were south facing. And you also
9 said that on the other side your windows looked out onto the west. They
10 were west facing and looked onto the Od Sigurate Street; is that right?
11 A. Correct, yes.
12 Q. Tell me now, please, how then were you able to see from these
13 windows of yours, the Stradun-facing windows, how were you able to see
14 Srdj, Mount Srdj from those windows?
15 A. Because I have a loft, and you can see Srdj wonderfully well up
16 there. You couldn't see the loft on the photograph because it was burnt
17 down, but you could see the Imperijal Hotel and everything else.
18 Q. Well, what about the loft windows? Where were they facing?
19 A. You can see. They are between the roof and the next-door roof.
20 There was a window there, and you could see everything from it. Well,
21 it's the second street from the cloister, the Mala Braca cloister. Have
22 you been to Dubrovnik?
23 Q. I would like you to tell me the following: Is Mount Srdj to the
24 north of the Old Town?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So how, then, from south-facing windows were you able to see
2 something that was behind your back?
3 A. I wasn't looking southwards. I looked westwards. If I turn my
4 head I can see Mount Srdj from the window. I can take you there to the
5 Dubrovnik. They've reconstructed the facade of the building now.
6 Q. So from that south-facing window you were able to see Mount Srdj
7 which was to the north?
8 A. If you were looking to the west you could see Srdj, which was to
9 the north. It's a small window in the loft area with a small terrace.
10 Q. I'm trying to be very specific in asking my questions.
11 A. And I'm being very specific in answering your questions.
12 Q. Today, on page 7, line 18 of the transcript, you described what
13 you could see from your windows, the windows looking out onto the Stradun,
14 and there you stated that: "I always looked at Srdj from the windows
15 facing the Stradun side." You didn't mention any west-facing windows.
16 You just mentioned the south-facing windows. Is that what you said?
17 A. I don't think that's what I said. I really do think that I don't
18 mention -- that I didn't mention the south-facing windows but the west
19 view. Check it out, because I couldn't say something that actually wasn't
20 the case.
21 Q. That's what it says, and my colleague Mr. Re would have put me
22 right had I quoted you wrongly. But never mind. It's not important.
23 Let's move on.
24 Tell me, please, your building, it was a valuable building, wasn't
25 it? What was protected on that building? Did I understand you correctly
1 that your building enjoyed external protection and that it was protected
2 and enjoyed protection both on the facade, the exterior, and the interior?
3 Is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. As far as I was able to understand, as regards of the interior of
6 the building, you did some serious renovation and interventions there.
7 Did you have permits to go ahead with this construction work from the
8 Dubrovnik cultural institute?
9 A. Yes. We didn't knock down anything that was old. We just made it
10 more beautiful.
11 Q. So on the 1st of October, you saw from your apartment as shells
12 were falling on Srdj?
13 A. No, not on the 1st of October. I only heard detonations. On the
14 1st of October, town -- war started in town. When the first siren went
15 off, I did not see that. It was on the 6th of December that I saw that,
17 Q. All right. What was on Srdj? Why were they bombing Srdj?
18 A. I really don't know.
19 Q. Did you hear about what was on Srdj?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Tell me, did you perhaps see shooting from Srdj ever?
22 A. I never saw any such thing. I just saw shells falling on Srdj.
23 As for shooting, I never saw that.
24 Q. Do you perhaps know that the Croatian army was at the Imperijal
25 Fort on Srdj?
1 A. No, I don't know about that. I didn't see that.
2 Q. Have you ever heard of any such thing?
3 A. No.
4 Q. As for the town of Dubrovnik, I mean Gruz, Lapad, Ploce,
5 St. Jakov, were there any Croatian troops there?
6 A. I didn't see that. I don't know. I can say that in town there
7 weren't any, and as for out of town, I really cannot say.
8 Q. Did you go to work every day?
9 A. Every day. And I was afraid as to when I'd come [as interpreted].
10 Q. Please tell the Chamber where you went.
11 A. I went round the corner but always from Zarkovica. They targeted
12 us with snipers and machine-guns. They were really taking it out on us.
13 It was hard for us to walk that way. Only sometimes a vehicle from the
14 hospital would come and pick us up, but I would usually walk. We would
15 usually walk. It was really bad, really, really bad.
16 Q. Again, I'm asking you to answer my question. If you went on foot,
17 which streets did you take?
18 A. I went towards the west via Pile Gate, then I went out to Pile,
19 then the street formerly called Marshala Tita [as interpreted], and then
20 Gradac, the old hospital, the medical centre, and then I'd turn left and
21 that's where the new hospital of Medarevo is.
22 Q. This street of Marshal Tito, is it now called the street of Ante
24 A. I think so. I'm not sure.
25 Q. And you took that same route every day and went back the same way?
1 A. For the most part. Sometimes I'd stay on at the hospital,
2 although the hospital was shelled too.
3 Q. Can I please ask you to focus on my questions. Whatever my
4 colleague wanted to ask you he did ask you, so there is no -- and you
5 answered those questions and we will finish sooner if you just answer my
7 A. That's fine.
8 Q. So the route you took every day, on this route did you ever see an
9 armed person or a person in uniform?
10 A. No.
11 Q. During the three months that we're talking about, October,
12 November, and December, did you ever see on this route that we are
13 referring to a Croatian soldier or a Croatian policeman?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Generally speaking, in the town of Dubrovnik, not taking into
16 account the Old Town, were there any Croatian soldiers or Croatian police
18 A. I cannot say whether they were there or not. I didn't see any of
19 them. In town there certainly weren't any. And outside the town, I don't
21 Q. For the Trial Chamber, could you please make sure that we make a
22 distinction. When we say the Old Town, then we mean the Old Town. When
23 we say the town of Dubrovnik, then we mean Lapad, Gruz, Ploce, everything
24 that is part of town; right? So that it would be clear to all. First and
25 foremost, the distinguished Trial Chamber.
1 So throughout this time, you didn't see anyone. Now, tell me, did
2 you perhaps hear of the presence of Croatian police or army in the town of
4 A. No.
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters ask could the witness's
6 microphone please be turned on, the other one as well.
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Have you perhaps heard of the term the "Defenders of Dubrovnik"?
9 A. Yes, later, much later.
10 Q. Who were these people who were called the defenders of Dubrovnik?
11 A. Who they were? Those who defended it probably. If they are
12 defenders, they -- they were defending their homeland from the enemy,
13 probably those who came by force and tried to enter by force. But we did
14 not set anything on fire, sir.
15 Q. Tell me, did you know any of the defenders of Dubrovnik?
16 A. Did I know any? Yes. Yes, I did know one. I knew a friend.
17 Q. Could you please be so kind as to give us his name?
18 A. I've almost forgotten. Zeljko is his first name, and the last
19 name -- he's deceased. He got killed.
20 Q. Tell me, do you know when he was killed and under what
22 A. I really don't know. I think he was in the Civil Defence,
23 something like that.
24 Q. Did you ever see him in this period October, November, December?
25 A. Once but in civilian clothes, from the window, before this 6th of
2 Q. You saw him from the window of your house, I assume, the one that
3 faces --
4 A. Stradun.
5 Q. Tell me, when was he killed approximately, at that time?
6 A. I think it was somewhere around the beginning. I don't know. I
7 don't know exactly. I cannot say exactly. Putica, Zeljko, Putica.
8 Q. When you say the beginning, you're probably referring to the month
9 of October, November?
10 A. Yes, because in December our house burnt down, yes.
11 Q. Tell me, when you saw him then, did you talk to him?
12 A. No. I was at the window and he just waved his hand at me for the
13 very last time in his life.
14 Q. Did you perhaps see whether he had been armed?
15 A. No. No. He was wearing civilian clothes. He was there with
16 other people strolling down Stradun.
17 Q. Did you know any of the people who were with him?
18 A. No. No.
19 Q. Tell me -- tell me, did you know anything about where he was, what
20 he did? You say that he was in this Civil Defence. Did you know anything
21 about where he was?
22 A. He worked at the waterworks. I really don't know how come he
23 ended up in the Civil Defence. But, look, I mean if a war broke out, of
24 course he had to prepare in this way, but he was not attached to the
25 military, no.
1 Q. Tell me, was there any mobilisation in Dubrovnik?
2 A. No. As far as I know, no. My nephew was 33 then, approximately,
3 but he was not called up. He was not mobilised at all. My husband, whom
4 I met later on, had not been mobilised either. I don't know about anyone.
5 Q. Do you know whether anybody else had been mobilised?
6 A. I don't know. I really don't know. No one in my street was
7 mobilised, no one.
8 Q. Did you hear about this at all?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Please be so kind as to tell us why you said then to the
11 investigator Mohammed Arshad in June 2000 why you said to him what you're
12 denying now, and this is what you said: "I heard that the Croats when the
13 conflict started were mobilised to fight against the enemy forces." That
14 is what you stated to him then?
15 A. I really did not hear that. I have no idea. It's been such a
16 long time really.
17 Q. Did you not tell him this or did you forget that you told him
18 about this?
19 A. I don't know. I have no idea. I really don't remember that.
20 Q. He probably added this on his own, then?
21 A. No, I don't think so. No. I'm just saying I don't know.
22 Q. Did you perhaps forget this fact, then? Have you forgotten since
24 A. Well, yes, but perhaps I didn't attach any importance to it. It's
25 only natural that there had to be a defence. None of my people were
1 there, so then perhaps I just forgot about it.
2 Q. Tell me, what was it that people had to defend themselves with?
3 Did they have any weapons?
4 A. Nothing. How could they get weapons? And our army that we had
5 financed and paid for so handsomely had turned their weapons on us. They
6 started killing us with those same weapons that we paid for.
7 Q. Do you know where the positions of the defenders were?
8 A. No, I don't know about that either.
9 Q. Were there any at all?
10 A. I don't know. I wasn't interested in that.
11 Q. Tell me, did you perhaps ever see any man in uniform, an ordinary
12 policeman anywhere in town?
13 A. An ordinary policeman?
14 Q. In the town of Dubrovnik.
15 A. I didn't. Only when we'd walk on Porporela, then I'd hear some
16 music from Zarkovica, some kind of folk music. So you see, I guess it was
17 not our troops up there. Perhaps the army that we had had before that.
18 Q. Did you perhaps see an ordinary policeman at the Pile Gate?
19 A. No. No. Not that either. Perhaps there was one, but I would try
20 to hide as much as I could, and I would be glancing at the hill up there.
21 Q. Tell me, was anybody maintaining law and order in the Old Town?
22 A. No. We were at home all the time. We were -- we did not go to
23 the shelter, and what the Civil Defence did is something I really don't
24 know about.
25 Q. When you were at Porporela, did you see these soldiers at
2 A. Yes, I did, but they weren't that nearby.
3 Q. Do you perhaps remember the uniforms, the colour of the uniforms?
4 A. Greenish. I have no idea.
5 Q. Do you remember perhaps whether a cannon could be seen there or a
6 tank or something? Did you see anything at Zarkovica from Porporela?
7 A. No, I did not.
8 Q. Did you perhaps see whether they had any weapons?
9 A. I think they had a machine-gun, a machine-gun in their hands. And
10 every evening, I can tell you that, when we would have dinner in the loft,
11 they would target our window every evening and shrapnel fell in then too.
12 Q. We'll get to that. Tell me, from Porporela to Zarkovica --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- how far is that as the crow flies?
15 A. Well, how much -- well, it's very nearby, because these soldiers
16 got even closer, all the way down to Ploce, you know, that part. They
17 were so close. Their positions were probably at Zarkovica. I have no
18 idea. At any rate, I saw them and I heard this folk music, and then I
19 assumed that that was it.
20 Q. Did they enter the Old Town?
21 A. No. No. No, they did not.
22 Q. If they came to Ploce --
23 A. Well, not exactly to Ploce but below Zarkovica. Very nearby. So
24 we saw them from Porporela. And one day a gentleman walked in front of me
25 and a sniper hit him. He lives near St. Marija. His last name is Saric.
1 What his first name is I have no idea. But he was injured, he was wounded
2 by a sniper.
3 Q. Could you be so kind as to tell us the following: This place
4 where you saw them, below Zarkovica and then to Porporela there's about a
5 couple of hundred metres; is that right?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. 250, 300 metres?
8 A. Well, sort of, I guess.
9 Q. Tell me, do you know why these people from Zarkovica or, rather,
10 from below Zarkovica did not enter town?
11 A. Ask them. I really don't know.
12 Q. Was there perhaps someone or something between Zarkovica and town?
13 A. No, no one as far as I could see.
14 Q. Tell me, where were you watching from and from where could you see
15 that there was no one there?
16 A. Well, I didn't see anybody else except for them.
17 Q. Was there someone perhaps at the houses or hotels who was stopping
18 these people from Zarkovica from getting closer?
19 A. I don't know. I really don't know. I cannot talk about things I
20 don't know.
21 Q. Please, when you were moving about and you said that for three
22 months you went to work and back all the time, did you ever see an
23 armoured vehicle moving about?
24 A. No. No, I really didn't.
25 Q. Did you perhaps see an armoured vehicle ever bringing in the
1 wounded to hospital?
2 A. No, I did not. I worked in the administration, so I didn't
3 actually have any contact with the patients.
4 Q. Did you hear anything about that?
5 A. Well, I heard that there were wounded.
6 Q. Did you hear that APCs brought in the wounded?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Could you please repeat what was damaged on the 1st of October?
9 A. The 1st of October, all the damages?
10 Q. Yes, but I mean in the Old Town.
11 A. The Rupe museum, I think the Sponza building was damaged too, as
12 well as the cloister of Mala Braca. And then later on --
13 Q. Well, I'm asking you about the 1st of October.
14 A. Well, I can't say exactly because a lot of time has gone by. I
15 don't know the exact dates and what happened when, but I do know what was
16 hit. Ploce, that's outside the Old Town --
17 Q. Let's take this step by step slowly, please. Let's summarise what
18 your testimony was as you told my learned colleague, and now you can tell
20 On the 1st of October it was Sponza, Sveti Vlaho, St. Blaise, and
21 Mala Brace, the cloister?
22 A. And the Rupe museum too.
23 Q. Right, the Rupe museum too.
24 A. Yes. Whether that was October or November, I can't really be
1 Q. You mean just as regards the Rupe museum?
2 A. No. I mean everything in actual fact. I assume that's the month
3 it happened, because from the 1st of October, there was constant bombing
4 or shelling, almost every day. So I really can't remember those details.
5 I really can't.
6 Q. From the 1st of October, was this on a daily basis or was the
7 Old Town shelled almost every day?
8 A. Well, not each and every day but almost every day, as far as I
10 Q. Tell me, please, were there some days when there was no shelling?
11 A. Well, yes, that did happen. There could have been a lull for a
12 couple of days, but -- and really I found it very strange when there
13 wasn't an explosion at night when I was about to go to sleep. And we had
14 no electricity, so it would light up the room when there was an explosion.
15 Q. You couldn't go to sleep if you didn't hear the sound of a shell
17 A. Yes. Then there was something out of ordinary, by means that
18 there was continuous shelling. It was unusual for me to not hear those
19 terrible explosions every night.
20 Q. So that means you would hear those explosions. And where did you
21 sleep, in the loft?
22 A. No, I slept downstairs on the second floor. I could hear -- I was
23 too much of an optimist.
24 Q. So you went to sleep with all these explosions, and then you
25 would -- you didn't go to the shelter?
1 A. No. Only when it was the worst situation, for the couple of worst
3 Q. When there was no explosion?
4 A. Well, then I would go around walking, walk around.
5 Q. Tell me, please, why did you never go to a shelter?
6 A. I had a phobia of shelters. There were too many people in too
7 small a space. It was claustrophobic. I didn't like going.
8 Q. Did you ever enter a shelter?
9 A. Well, one night we slept in the shelter of the Park Hotel on a
10 wooden table. That's the only day throughout the war that I spent in a
12 Q. But all that came later, after the 6th of December.
13 A. Yes, and after the 6th of December, I didn't go to the shelter. I
14 went to my neighbour's and took shelter there because the building was
15 built up more.
16 Q. When you said that on the 1st of October you looked through the
17 window and saw nobody out in the streets --
18 A. Not nobody anywhere. I meant --
19 Q. Would you allow me to finish my question.
20 A. Yes, I'll do that.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, let me ask my question first and then you can
22 answer. Don't interrupt, please.
23 You said that on the 1st of October, you looked out of your window
24 and that you saw nobody anywhere on the Stradun. That's what you told us.
25 When was that? When did you look out the window and where were the
1 people, if you happen to know?
2 A. I looked out of the window in the morning. I looked through the
3 window when I heard the explosion. I thought it was the dustmen banging
4 about with their bins, but it wasn't the dustmen, and then I realised what
5 it was.
6 Q. And the people, all the people who are usually out on the
8 A. It was morning. It wasn't summertime to have people out in the
9 streets that early.
10 Q. Tell me, please, your own house, you said it was very close to
11 Srdj. What do you mean by very close? How close is very close?
12 A. Well, as the crow flies, I don't know how many metres it would be,
13 but it's close by.
14 Q. It's even closer than Zarkovica is to Porporela; is that right?
15 A. Well, roughly speaking, yes. Zarkovica is a little towards this
16 end. But there is a fortress up on Mount Srdj so I couldn't see anybody.
17 Q. Yes. I only asked you how far it was. I know you didn't see
18 anybody. I understand that. What I'm interested in is the distance, how
19 far it is. So several hundred metres would you say?
20 A. Yes. I assume that's the distance. I felt that they would come
21 into town from Zarkovica.
22 Q. Did you see any flags up on Mount Srdj?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Tell me, please, when you look towards Srdj --
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. -- how many times did you see these explosions at Srdj? Was this
2 on a daily basis, every day?
3 A. Well, let me think. No, it wasn't every day.
4 Q. Well, how many times did you see that happen, roughly?
5 A. How many times? That's a tough question. I really can't say.
6 On the 6th of December, I saw one, and before that when the
7 Imperijal Hotel was set fire to. So three or four times.
8 Q. So you saw that up at Srdj three or four times.
9 A. While I was at home.
10 Q. Would you just wait to hear my question, please, once again.
11 As I was saying, you saw that three or four times, whereas the Old
12 Town was almost targeted every day except for a few exceptions. Am I
13 right in saying that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Tell me, please, do you know what a guided missile is?
16 A. Yes. I suppose there's a code and it knows where to
17 land. "Guided" means that; right? Guided to the target. But of course
18 I'm not competent enough to be able to speak about those military matters.
19 Q. Tell me, please, why, when the investigator talked to you, did you
20 not mention a guided missile at all? You never mentioned anything like
22 A. I really don't know. It's just come to my mind now, because you
23 know, a lot of time has gone by and now I've sort of begun to unwind the
24 tape and remember things that I didn't previously remember.
25 Q. Well, Mrs. Ogresta, you gave a very detailed statement. You speak
1 about many things that we have heard here in the courtroom today, but you
2 did not make a single mention of that guided missile at all.
3 A. Perhaps I used the term the first time today. I don't know.
4 Perhaps I did previously. I don't remember what I told the investigator.
5 I really don't. It's just come to me now. I suddenly thought of it.
6 Q. When did it come to you?
7 A. Just now, this particular moment. I realised that this was the
8 term, "guided."
9 Q. Well, I'm sure the investigator didn't ask you about that or did
10 he, how your house was hit?
11 A. Well, yes, he did ask me, but I don't know. My brain cells, grey
12 matter seems to have unraveled it all now.
13 Q. Well, I'm going to tell you -- read out, in fact, what you told
14 him, and I'll limit myself to the important part. "I cannot tell you the
15 exact number of shells that fell on our palace, nor can I say anything
16 about the number shells which did not explode. I also cannot say much
17 about the types of shells because I don't know anything about that."
18 A. Yes, and now suddenly --
19 Q. Would you wait for me to ask the question, my question, please.
20 In the year 2000 you knew nothing about the types of shells or at
21 least that's what you told Mr. Arshad, the investigator. So how come
22 you've just remembered guided missiles and the rest of the things you
24 A. I don't know. By process of association, I suppose. It's just
25 come to my mind, guided missiles, that the shells were guided. Why, I
1 don't know. I can ask God how I came to that. I don't know. God only
3 Q. Well, as you knew nothing about that, and you are quite explicit
4 on that point, how come that in the meantime you learnt something about
5 it? Did you talk to anybody? Did you consult anybody?
6 A. No. No, I did not. Perhaps I heard of it. I really don't know.
7 I can't say anything about the profile of the shell.
8 Q. Well, would you please be so kind as to tell me when you saw the
9 photographs that we showed in the courtroom a moment ago, did you happen
10 to look at them a couple of days ago, a few days ago?
11 A. No, I didn't see them, but I remembered them very well. That
12 image will always stay with me throughout my life, for as long as I live.
13 Q. Well, did you -- have you talked to anybody since you've been here
14 in The Hague?
15 A. No. Who do you mean?
16 Q. You didn't talk to anybody?
17 A. No. Who do you mean? Talk to who? Do you mean professionally,
18 privately? What do you mean?
19 Q. I mean did you talk to, for example, someone from the witness and
20 victims unit, for example?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you talk to anybody from the Prosecution, the OTP?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Well, why did you say a moment ago that you didn't talk to
1 A. I didn't know who you had in mind. Did you talk to any Defence
2 counsel? That would be normal.
3 Q. So you did talk to somebody from the OTP?
4 A. Well, for goodness sake, yes.
5 Q. Well, why didn't you tell us?
6 A. Well, I didn't think it was important. I thought that was the
7 general procedure, that you had to talk to somebody. I didn't attach any
8 importance to it, because nobody can tell me what the truth was if I
9 didn't experience it myself. Isn't that right?
10 Q. Well, I completely agree with that. That's normal.
11 A. Well, I've told you everything now.
12 Q. All right. Thank you. So what did you discuss?
13 A. Well, nothing. Where I am now, what I'm doing now, how it all
14 happened, that kind of thing. I told them my life story or, rather, my
15 tragedy, my personal tragedy as experienced by me personally.
16 Q. Did you discuss the 6th of December?
17 A. Yes, we did discuss the 6th of December, and how. And I described
18 it like I'm describing it to you all, as I described it a moment ago to
19 Their Honours, before the Trial Chamber.
20 Q. Were you perhaps shown your statement, the one you gave in the
21 year 2000?
22 A. I didn't pay any attention.
23 Q. Did they show you the statement you gave in the year 2000?
24 A. I didn't look at it here.
25 Q. Did Mr. Re show you your statement or not?
1 A. He showed it to me, but I didn't read it, to tell you the truth.
2 Q. And why did Mr. Re show you your statement?
3 A. Just like that. No reason. Did you show your witnesses their
4 statements? Do you show your witnesses their statements?
5 Q. Did Mr. Re show you anything else apart from your statement?
6 A. No, nothing.
7 Q. So he showed you your statement and you didn't pay any attention
8 to it?
9 A. No, not even -- not the least bit. It was on the table in front
10 of him. I didn't pay attention to it. And I thought that that was done
12 Q. Well, did he ask you whether what you had written in your
13 statement was correct and true?
14 A. Yes, he did.
15 Q. And what did you tell him?
16 A. That it was.
17 Q. Did you take a look at the statement before that?
18 A. Well, just glanced at it. Is it not true and correct?
19 Q. Did Mr. Re read the statement out to you?
20 A. No, he did not.
21 Q. And he didn't give you the statement to read?
22 A. I just glanced through it and said it was all right. Why should I
23 look at it? I assume if you tell the truth, then you don't have to read
24 through it. I couldn't say something that wasn't true. It was what had
25 happened to me. So that was it.
1 Q. When Mr. Re had you -- you had been shown the statement by Mr. Re,
2 you would have seen there was nothing in the statement with respect to
3 guided missiles or guide shells.
4 A. Well, that doesn't matter. I've just started to unwind the whole
5 film since I've been here in The Hague. I tried to put it to rest, to
6 forget about it, but I can't forget. I still feel that I'm in the hotel
8 Q. So Mr. Re didn't show you the photographs and the text that you
9 read out a moment ago.
10 A. No.
11 Q. He didn't?
12 A. No, he didn't.
13 Q. Well, did you happen to remember guide missiles when you read it
14 in the text?
15 A. Well, it was a process of association. I don't know. I don't
16 know how that detail came to mind. Perhaps something rang a bell or by
17 process of association brought me to it.
18 Q. Perhaps you thought of it when you read it through.
19 A. Well, a red light went on, I assume.
20 Q. Tell me, please, did you ever talk to anybody about the damage
21 that your house incurred in Dubrovnik?
22 A. Well, I understood that the whole house had burnt down. So what
23 do you mean destroyed, destruction? It was fifth category. It was
24 completely burnt down.
25 Q. Did anybody come to talk to you from the institute for the
1 protection of cultural monuments, for example, or anything like that?
2 A. No, they did not communicate with us because we weren't the
3 proprietors. We just had tenant's rights, so they just spoke to the
5 Q. So they didn't come to see you or your sister to ask you anything
6 about how it all happened?
7 A. No. No, they didn't. We went there to establish the category.
8 We went to the Institute for Reconstruction and Development to have them
9 come out on the spot and to put our building into one of the categories
10 that they had established for damaged buildings.
11 Q. When was that?
12 A. At the beginning or, rather, after the 6th of December, quite soon
14 Q. Tell me, please, on that occasion, did they ask you how the damage
15 was used, what happened, how it all happened?
16 A. No. I assumed they knew. They saw that the building had been
17 burnt down. I assumed they knew that it had been hit, that we didn't burn
18 the tyres at all. When I heard that, well, you know how I felt.
19 Q. So they didn't ask you anything about the exploded or unexploded
20 shells? They didn't ask you anything about that, none of that?
21 A. No, they didn't.
22 Q. Well, as you say, you'd forgotten. They didn't ask you about
23 guided missiles, not guided missiles, mortar shells, anything like that?
24 A. No. How could they ask me? Why, in what way and why?
25 Q. Well, I assume they didn't ask you anything either about the types
1 of mortars, the projectiles, et cetera.
2 A. No, they did not. All they saw was that they destroyed
3 everything. They, first of all, destroyed the house and then it was set
4 fire to. What else is there to ask? I -- the only thing I was sorry was
5 that I thought that I would never see my killers. I wouldn't see the
6 person who would cause my death.
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, is this a good time
8 to break for the pause?
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic. We will have a 20-minute
11 --- Recess taken at 12.21 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.
14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Mrs. Ogresta, you said several times that bullets coming from
16 machine-guns had hit the windows of your house; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So these bullets from the machine-gun hit the window on the south
19 side facing the Stradun and the west side window facing Od Sigurate.
20 A. No, no. It was occasionally gunfire when the shells would stop
21 falling. So it would hit us every now and then. How -- what's the word
22 for this? Let me just remember. Ah, yes, I remember the word. The
23 wooden blinds, the wooden shutters, that's where the bullets were
24 implanted, but that was during the lull.
25 Q. Please be so kind as to tell me which shutters, which ones.
1 A. Up in the loft, way up in the loft. I told you I could see Srdj
2 from there.
3 Q. Is this on the south side?
4 A. On the west side.
5 Q. So on the south side nothing got into the shutters?
6 A. No. I didn't notice anything. Only on the west side, from the
7 west side, up in the loft. So it wasn't on the 6th of December only.
8 Q. How many times did this happen, this coming from the west side?
9 A. In the evening sort of. A few times. We were so frightened, we
10 didn't go to the loft.
11 Q. Did you ever find any remains?
12 A. Yes. Yes, there were some.
13 Q. Tell me, military-aged men, were they allowed to leave the town of
15 A. Well, many left, as far as I can remember, men and women. But of
16 course, most people who left were women and children. But there were
17 quite a few men who left, too, yes. But women and children primarily had
18 the right to go.
19 Q. What did your nephew do in October, November, and December 1991?
20 A. He did nothing. I mean, I already said, I think, that he worked
21 at this printing press at Dubac in Zupa outside Dubrovnik. It had been
22 hit. His company went down the drain, so he was unemployed. His name
23 Said Dilberovic. He did not do his military service, nothing.
24 Q. Did he join the Croatian army later?
25 A. No, never.
1 Q. Did he do his military service in the JNA?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was he able bodied?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And nobody ever called him up into the military?
6 A. No one ever called him up into the military.
7 Q. Tell me, where was your nephew that night between the 5th and the
9 A. At his mother-in-law's, his mother-in-law being Mrs. Vera Gudelj
10 at Boninovo.
11 Q. Tell me, why did your nephew go from the apartment where he had
12 lived all his life in the Old City? Please let me finish my question.
13 When you all assumed it was safer in the Old Town?
14 A. I don't know. Boninovo is close to the Old Town and I don't think
15 that a single shell fell there. And they had a good cellar up there. And
16 since it was the little boy's birthday on the 30th of November, before
17 that, I mean about ten days before that, they went there and they simply
18 stayed on. They simply stayed on. I think it was the finger of fate. So
19 they have a barbecue there, they have an outdoor terrace. They probably
20 wanted to cheer the little boy up, I guess, things like that.
21 Q. So it was safer there than in the Old Town?
22 A. Well, I wouldn't say that it was safer, but they have a pretty
23 good cellar, you see, so that's the way it was. For the birthday, it was
24 better. They could celebrate his fourth birthday better in that case.
25 Q. Do you know what a Crisis Staff is?
1 A. I don't know. Probably a staff that was established at a time of
2 crisis, either when there's a natural disaster or war or caused by natural
3 causes or man-made. I don't know whether that's correct.
4 Q. And what was the role of the Crisis Staff in the war?
5 A. I really don't know. I'm not very knowledgeable about such
7 Q. Do you know whether there was a Crisis Staff in Dubrovnik?
8 A. I don't know that either.
9 Q. Did you listen to the radio over those months that you were in
11 A. Those months, is that what you're asking me?
12 Q. Yes, October, November, December 1991.
13 A. In town, I heard the radio a bit, and I heard that we in the Old
14 Town were burning tyres, we the Ustashas. That's what I heard. Then we
15 could hear Radio Trebinje saying things like that. We didn't have any
16 electricity, so we could only use battery-operated transistor radios. They
17 were saying all sorts of things.
18 Q. Was there a Radio Dubrovnik?
19 A. Yes, there was a Radio Dubrovnik. Of course there was, in town.
20 But we didn't have any electricity, so those who had batteries could
21 listen to radio programmes.
22 Q. And when you got batteries you only listened to Radio Trebinje?
23 A. Radio Dubrovnik, too. We listened to whatever we could.
24 Q. Did you ever hear statements of the Crisis Staff on Radio
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you hear on Radio Dubrovnik, for instance, where there would
3 be bread, where there would be other food supplies? Did you hear things
4 like that?
5 A. No, not over those three months. We bought some tinned food when
6 the war started. We barely managed to get hold of a chicken but we didn't
7 have much else.
8 Q. Did you have any bread over those months, October, November,
10 A. Yes we did. My sister went to get it since I went to work in the
11 morning. Where she bought the bread I really don't know.
12 Q. You never bought bread during those three months?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did your sister buy bread somewhere in the Old Town?
15 A. Yes, in the Old Town for sure. She didn't go out of town, no. It
16 was in the Old Town for sure. She would have been too frightened to go
18 Q. So where did she buy it?
19 A. I don't know. Believe me, I guess some shops were open. Od Puca,
20 Miha Pracata, the marketplace, somewhere around there. Perhaps Mediator.
21 It had just started working. Nowadays there is a chain in town, but at
22 that time there was just this one shop. I think that it was Mediator
23 where she went most often.
24 Q. Oh, so she went there.
25 A. I think there or in the Pavlovic -- well, or perhaps Mediator at
1 the market. I don't know. Somewhere in that area.
2 Q. Did you ever go there?
3 A. When do you think?
4 Q. In October, November, December.
5 A. No, never. I just went to work, and I came home and I didn't want
6 to go out after that. Only if shelling would start, then I would go to
7 our neighbour's together with Mrs. Marija Matic.
8 Q. All right. On the 6th of December, why did you not go to your
10 A. Well, look, I could not believe that it would be this kind of
11 intensity. At one moment, we really could not go out. If we'd get out,
12 we'd get killed. We had no way out of this. And then we were encouraged
13 by our neighbour, and had he not rescued us, we would have gotten killed
14 there for sure.
15 Q. Tell me, how many shells hit your house?
16 A. A countless number. I don't know how many, but it was non-stop.
17 When we were on the ground floor, it was going on non-stop above us. And
18 I was thinking at that moment, Oh, my goodness, I'll die young. I wasn't
19 even 40 at the time. But it would be so terrible to be killed among all
20 the ruins and not to see the face of the man who was doing this to you.
21 It was awful.
22 Q. So you say a countless number. 10, 20, 30?
23 A. I don't know. I really don't know. It went on for so long and at
24 such intensity that I thought I'd go deaf before I died. We had really
25 reconciled ourselves to our fate.
1 Q. All these shells fell on your house?
2 A. Yes, above our heads. I thought it was hitting me in the head.
3 We couldn't even move our arms or hands left or right.
4 Q. We'll get to that. How many shells fell in your street
6 A. Ah, you're asking me too much. I really didn't do any counting
7 then or do I know. I mean, honestly.
8 Q. Were there 20, 30, 40 there?
9 A. I really don't know. From all sides.
10 Q. So the detonations were every few seconds or minutes or how often?
11 A. It seemed to me it was very fast. I really cannot tell you
12 anything in greater detail.
13 Q. Tell me, these shells were falling on the houses and on the street
15 A. No, on the house. The window right above us.
16 Q. I'm asking you about the street.
17 A. No, no, no. I didn't see any falling there except for the
18 neighbour's roof. There was a hole in the roof.
19 Q. Please be so kind as to clarify this for us. So let's say tens of
20 shells fell on your house.
21 A. Yes. And as for the other houses in the street and the street
22 itself, just as many fell or perhaps more or less?
23 A. I don't know how many fell in the street, directly onto the
24 street I don't know. I know that this one shell fell on our neighbour's
25 house, and now -- but I have the impression that there was non-stop
1 shooting, that our house was being hit all the time. I don't know whether
2 they were targeting the Franciscan cloister or the festival building, but
3 at any rate, it was our house that was hit the most in that area.
4 Q. Tell me, shrapnel that flew by that you saw --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- was it from the shells that were falling on your house?
7 A. I think so. Well, look, I assume that these were shells that were
8 falling on our house. I think so. At any rate, we saw them at the
9 window. We saw them as they were falling, so we couldn't move left or
10 right. We would have been hit otherwise. Now, whether they were falling
11 on the street or whatever, at any rate, these shells, it seemed to us were
12 falling right above our heads, not directly on the street. That's was our
14 Q. Did you watch through that little window?
15 A. Yes, yes, yes. But I didn't really see them on the street. I
16 mean, we would have been killed for sure. Perhaps they fell up and then
17 they ricochetted as far as I know about this.
18 Q. So from this small window you saw this shrapnel flying all over
19 the place?
20 A. Yes. Yes, I heard them. Like rain, like a torrent, and it's this
21 strange sound.
22 Q. Tell me, not a single shrapnel hit that window?
23 A. Oh, no, but had we moved just a tiny little bit, we would have
24 been finished. Had we moved just a tiny little bit, we would have been
25 hit for sure, yes.
1 Q. Tell me, if I saw this photograph properly -- just a moment,
2 please. Do I infer this correctly --
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] The last three digits are 451, Your
5 Could I please ask to have P90 shown to the witness, please.
6 MR. RE: I think it's 25, photo 25.
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Could you please take a look at photograph 25. I hope it's
9 already --
10 A. Yes, yes, it is on the monitor. It is on the monitor, yes.
11 Q. How big is the window, one metre by one metre?
12 A. It's a tiny little window with bars. Oh, you want me to point at
13 it here. I see. This one here, this tiny little window here. It has
14 bars on it and we were standing --
15 Q. All right. Just tell me how big is the window?
16 A. It's small.
17 Q. One metre by one metre?
18 A. No, it's not that big. I think it's like this big. Perhaps half
19 a metre.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I don't need this any longer.
22 Thank you.
23 Q. Could you please be so kind as to describe this to the Trial
24 Chamber. These shrapnel made of lead that you saw through the window,
25 what does this look like and how does this move?
1 A. Very fast. Lead, a silvery colour.
2 Q. So do they hit things?
3 A. It's like rain, like hail, as if this kind of rain was falling on
4 the house. So actually, it was stronger than hail, a bit stronger than
5 hail, yes.
6 Q. Tell me, as they were flying --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- what colour were they, a burning blaze, silvery, black?
9 A. It seems to me they were burning. I really can't remember these
10 details that well.
11 Q. But the important thing is that you saw them.
12 A. I did see them. And I heard them, as if it had been raining.
13 Q. All right. Tell me, how come you know that some shells did not
14 explode, those that fell in your house?
15 A. My sister went there with this other neighbour we have, and they
16 saw this, and he said, "Let's go downstairs because there are some
17 unexploded shells here." This is before the house was set on fire.
18 Q. Oh, so on that day he saw this upstairs, these unexploded shells.
19 A. On the first floor -- no, the second floor. The second floor.
20 They couldn't go further up. It seemed to him that there were some. They
21 were afraid, so that's why they went back. He was afraid that there were
22 some shells that were not exploded.
23 Q. Was he afraid because of the unexploded shells or did he see it?
24 A. I really don't know. He said he assumed there were more shells
25 that were unexploded, and he said, "It's terrible. Let's go."
1 Q. You said that the first shell hit your house at 9.00 o'clock.
2 A. No. It was hit earlier on. 6.00 o'clock -- or, rather, 10.00
3 o'clock, but it became faster, and later on the house -- well, we went
4 downstairs and it -- just in time.
5 Q. You said: "The first shell hit the roof of our palace at around
6 9.00 o'clock." You told the investigator that.
7 A. Well, perhaps that was right. All I know is that it started at
8 6.00 a.m., and we went downstairs. Now, whether it was exactly 9.00, I
9 can't say. The shelling started, so whether it was exactly 9.00 o'clock,
10 I can't say. I didn't have a watch.
11 Q. So that means 9.00 o'clock, not 6.00 o'clock?
12 A. I don't know. It started straight away, quickly. When it was
13 exactly, I really don't know.
14 Q. Had I known I'd been asked all these details, I would have written
15 them all down.
16 Q. You say the first shell hit the roof and caused a hole?
17 A. Not on my house but in my neighbour's house. I don't know where
18 the first shell fell. I was downstairs. All I knew was that I heard it,
19 felt it.
20 Q. That's what I'm asking you. You say: "At around 9.00 o'clock,
21 the first shell hit the roof of our palace and made a hole in it." That's
22 what you told the investigators.
23 A. I don't remember that. I don't remember saying that. I know that
24 it hit somewhere in the upper regions. I assumed it was in the roof.
25 Q. Did you see that hole yourself?
1 A. I did when I went outside the house before it went up in flames.
2 I saw the hole.
3 Q. Where were you standing and how could you see the hole in the
5 A. While the house was being targeted, I didn't see it, I couldn't
6 see it then. I saw it when I left the house, when I stepped outside,
7 before it went up in flames. I saw the hole up there, and half the roof
8 was shattered. The house was half destroyed when we left it, stepped
9 outside. And I said that we started choking from the smoke and debris and
10 all the rest of it.
11 Q. You told my learned colleague today at one point that the guided
12 missile from the west and south set fire to the curtains in your loft.
13 A. Well, not the loft, on the second floor.
14 Q. Very well, the second floor. So is that true and correct?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. Then you told my colleague that at that point in time, you were in
17 front of Vladimir's house in the Od Sigurate Street number 4. Do you
18 remember saying that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So standing outside the house that was Od Sigurate Street
21 number 4, you were looking in the direction of your own house.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And then you saw this guided -- just let me finish, please -- and
24 you saw this guided missile entering through the window on the second
25 floor; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Could you kindly tell us now, please, what colour the shell or
3 missile was that entered the second floor window?
4 A. I didn't notice the colour. I didn't see what colour it was.
5 Q. And straight afterwards, you saw flames coming out through the
7 A. Yes. That was after the destruction. First of all, it all
8 toppled and then the flames started.
9 Q. And when the shell entered through the window or, rather, this
10 guided -- misguided, guided missile when it hit the window on the second
11 floor of your house, and we're talking about the Od Sigurate Street house,
12 were you there alone? Who else was there?
13 A. A friend of mine, the neighbour, Mr. Vladimir Srhoj, my sister,
14 the other neighbours, there were quite a lot of them. There was
15 Mrs. Hadzimatovic, there was Mr. Cikata, there was Mr. Milan, I've
16 forgotten his surname, Tomovic, I believe, something like that.
17 MR. RE: Your Honour, I was actually attempting to object to the
18 last question before it was answered. The evidence my learned friend is
19 putting to the witness isn't quite correct because she did actually
20 clarify in her examination-in-chief that she didn't actually quite see a
21 guided missile go through the window but it was a conclusion she came to
22 on the basis of seeing something and being told other things. So I ask
23 that he put correctly to the witness if he's going to question the witness
24 about the "guided missile".
25 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, I think that's correct, Mr. Petrovic. As I
1 understood her evidence in the end she saw a projectile of some type go
2 through the window and she saw what then followed, but she herself could
3 not say whether it was a guided missile. She was told by somebody else
4 that it was. But I think your question remains valid if we just
5 change "projectile" for "guided missile."
6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'll do my
7 best to clear that point up, to make it completely clear. Perhaps my
8 question was a little misleading or confusing, or Mrs. Ogresta responded
9 in a confused fashion. But let's recapitulate.
10 Q. Mrs. Ogresta, you stood with all the people we mentioned a moment
11 ago in front of the building in the Od Sigurate Street number 4, and you
12 saw a guided missile entering the window on the second floor of your
14 A. Yes, I saw a projectile. I assume it was a guide missile, and I
15 saw it go directly into or through the window.
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think things are
17 clear now what the testimony of this witness is.
18 Q. Also, when we looked at the video a moment ago, the footage taken
19 on the 7th of December, you showed us or pointed out to us on the facade
20 of your building, looking towards the Stradun, you pointed to the
21 left-hand window on the second floor, and you said that it was through
22 that second-floor, left-hand window that a projectile entered as well; is
23 that right?
24 A. Yes. That's what I assume. That's what I heard.
25 Q. So of those two projectiles which we have just described here was
1 what caused the fire on your building?
2 A. Well, I don't know exactly whether there were just two
4 Q. Let's check this slowly, step by step. So beforehand, before that
5 time your house had been hit by many projectiles?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Before this particular time your house did not go up in flames.
8 A. No, it didn't.
9 Q. Now, to make things quite clear, when you say "no," you mean it
10 wasn't set on fire.
11 A. Not yet.
12 Q. So when these two projectiles hit, you said that they hit the
13 curtains and then the house was set fire to.
14 A. Yes. At least soon afterwards it went up in flames.
15 Q. Thank you. Tell me just now, please, something about the festival
16 building, the Festival Palace. When my learned friend asked you, you said
17 that you had the impression that the fire came up from the bottom, from
18 the bottom up.
19 A. Well, I really don't know. I don't remember. It was all a trauma
20 for us. We did our best to put the fire out in my house, and then we took
21 the water from this well, and in the meantime the Festival Palace building
22 was set on fire. So we tried to extinguish the fire there, but that
23 wasn't possible. It was already aflame.
24 Q. But am I right in saying and in noting your response to my
25 colleague that you said that in the festival building it was the bottom
1 floor that was set fire to first and then the flames spread upwards?
2 A. Well, I might have been wrong. It started at the top. We weren't
3 able to open the door. That's why it was a problem. We weren't able to
4 open the door to the festival building, and the fire was spreading. That
5 was the problem. We lost time and couldn't open the door. Then this
6 other man, Mr. Mladjo, opened the door and we then we attempted without
7 success to put out the fire.
8 I don't know that it was hit by a shell, but it was in flames very
9 quickly. Whether the flames caught from our own house, I don't know, but
10 it was up in flames very quickly afterwards.
11 Q. But it was set alight after your own building caught fire?
12 A. Yes, soon afterwards.
13 Q. Well, perhaps the fire from your building caught the festival
14 building and spread to the Festival Palace?
15 A. I don't know. I don't believe so. We were out in the street
16 trying to put the fire out. There was shooting still going on, and the
17 building was up in flames.
18 Q. Was there a strong wind that fanned the flames perhaps?
19 A. No. No. On the contrary. It was cold but still no wind.
20 Q. You told us today that the fire brigade arrived on the scene very
21 soon after the fire broke out. How did they arrive? Did they come in a
22 vehicle, fire engine, or what?
23 A. I don't know. I know that they came in a car. How many of them
24 there were. They came in a vehicle. They tried to put out the fire but
25 without success. And it was general chaos. Everybody came to see what
1 was happening from all over town. They didn't seem to be afraid. They
2 came to see what was going on.
3 Q. Well, you don't know how many of them there were, but they came in
4 the red fire engine, didn't they?
5 A. Well, I suppose so. As far as I can remember. I really don't
6 know. I think so, yes.
7 Q. Tell me, a moment ago in response to my colleague's questions, you
8 said that to all intents and purposes, all the other houses in the Od
9 Sigurate Street were either not damaged or the damage was minor, and I'm
10 not talking about the monastery, just in the houses in the lower part of
11 your street, Od Sigurate Street. Just a moment, please. Let me finish.
12 Does that mean, then, that the shells which fell were for the most
13 part shells that fell on your own house, not any other shells, that there
14 weren't any other shells?
15 A. On the other building, I said that the roof to my neighbour's
16 house was hit, the summer festival building, but I didn't see any other
17 damage. I really didn't. There weren't any other -- there wasn't any
18 other damage.
19 Q. In your statement you said the following, and it was a very
20 interesting point. You say: "In the Old Town, I did not see a single
21 cannon, sniper, or anything like that, but it is difficult to say anything
22 about the area outside the Old Town."
23 A. Yes. If I wasn't there, I couldn't say. I was in the old part of
25 Q. So you didn't see anything?
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. Do you know who Damir Ogresta is?
3 A. Damir Ogresta? It's my brother-in-law, if that's the man. He was
4 a sailor.
5 Q. Yes. Where was he in 1991?
6 A. In Dubrovnik. I assume he was in Dubrovnik, but I didn't -- I
7 hadn't met my husband yet at that time.
8 Q. And what part of town is your husband from?
9 A. He's from Boninovo, opposite the health centre. Near the Boninovo
10 cemetery, in fact.
11 Q. And did you happen to hear that Mr. Damir Ogresta was a member of
12 the Croatian police force during the material time, October, November,
14 A. No, and I didn't know him at the time, and we're not on good terms
15 now anyway.
16 Q. Did you happen to hear that he was the commander of the police
17 station in Mokosica?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you happen to hear that your brother-in-law had been wounded?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you ever discuss the events of 1991 with your husband?
22 A. No. He never told me about his brother. He didn't live with his
23 brother, and I never even met the brother.
24 Q. Did you ever discuss the events of 1991 with your husband?
25 A. Yes, I did, and my husband kept a diary too.
1 Q. Was your husband involved in any of the units at that time?
2 A. No, he wasn't.
3 Q. And your husband never told you that his brother was the chief of
4 the police station in Mokosica?
5 A. No, he didn't, and I never asked.
6 Q. Just briefly, tell me, please, you said that at the beginning of
7 October, the damages to the Sponza Palace, St. Blaise, and so on --
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. -- tell us what the damage done was. What did it look like?
10 A. Well, holes. There were holes, some cracks of some sort.
11 Q. On the Sponza Palace building, where were the cracks?
12 A. Ah, you're asking me too much. I really can't say. I don't know.
13 Q. Well, did you see the damage?
14 A. Yes, I did, but I didn't remember. I didn't pay that much
15 attention. I just looked at my house and I don't, in fact, go into town
16 any more because that brings to memory what happened.
17 Q. On the St. Blaise church, did you see the damages?
18 A. Yes, but there was some reconstruction there although there were
19 some cracks.
20 Q. So in October, where were -- was the damage on St. Blaise church,
22 A. Probably on the roof. I don't know. You're asking me too much.
23 Q. And what about the Rupe museum?
24 A. I know it was damaged too, but I didn't go there to see. People
25 said that it had been damaged. I didn't personally go up there.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further
3 questions of this witness.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.
5 Mr. Re.
6 MR. RE: Can the witness please be shown the map she marked. I
7 think it's Exhibit P89 or 90 -- 89.
8 Re-examined by Mr. Re:
9 Q. Mr. Petrovic asked you about damage to your neighbour Mr. Vladimir
10 Srhoj's house. I just want you to mark on the map a square with an A in
11 the middle of it where his house is in relation to yours.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. You seem to have marked on a different street.
14 A. [In English] It's true.
15 Q. If you put the mark in the middle of the street, can you please
16 just draw onto the shaded bit where his house actually is. As in a
17 bird's-eye view, just draw in a square.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. It's still on the street.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you put an A next to it, please.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. All right. And that's number 4, is it?
24 A. Yeah. [Interpretation] Yes, number 4, I think. One, two, three,
25 four, I think it was. One, two -- I think it was four.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. RE: That could be returned.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Four or five. I really don't know.
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would just like to
5 ask that this be marked in some way, the house where the lady was, to have
6 it identified on this map somehow, because this way it remains unclear.
7 So I would kindly ask my colleague to take care of that. Thank you.
8 MR. RE: Perhaps we could do a legend on the side, an X for the
9 witness's house and an A for Mr. Vladimir Srhoj's house.
10 JUDGE PARKER: The court officer might be able to do that for us.
11 MR. RE: I'll keep going while you do that.
12 Q. You told Mr. Petrovic in cross-examination that you heard some
13 folk music from some soldiers. What sort of folk music was it?
14 A. Serb folk music sort of. Some kind of folk music. I have no
15 idea. Some kind of folk music that had been composed recently.
16 Q. Why do you say that?
17 A. Well, that's what the music sounded like, the melody.
18 Q. What about the -- what about the words? Why do you say it was
19 recently composed folk music?
20 A. I think it was recently composed folk music. I hadn't heard it
21 before, and there were loudspeakers.
22 Q. Do you remember what they were singing about, what the subject of
23 the songs was?
24 A. No. No, I didn't hear the words, no. No.
25 MR. RE: Can the witness please be shown Exhibit 90. That's the
1 excerpt from the institute report.
2 Q. Just -- just take a look at this exhibit. Mr. Petrovic, I think,
3 asked you some questions about the photographs in this report and asked
4 you about the conference you'd had with me just last week and these
5 photographs. Did I -- in this conference, did I give you these
6 photographs and a copy of the report?
7 A. I don't remember.
8 Q. Did I give you some documents to take away from the conference to
9 look at before you came to court?
10 A. Yes, the statement. The statement, yes.
11 Q. All right. I gave you the statement to take away, your statement
12 in Croatian?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you read it after I had given it to you to take away? I think
15 it was last Wednesday.
16 A. Well, fleetingly only.
17 Q. Do you still have it?
18 A. I think it's in my room.
19 Q. What about these photographs which are in your hand, the report?
20 A. I really don't know. Maybe you did give it to me. I didn't look
21 at it afterwards, not at all really.
22 Q. Just go to the front page, please.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Mr. Petrovic cross-examined you about your use of the word "guided
25 missile." Please have a look at the front page that says "Type of
1 projectile." The front page of the report, please.
2 A. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Yes, yes. I've seen it now.
3 Q. Mr. Petrovic asked you about your use of the words "guided
4 missile." What I wanted to ask you is this: Is this where you have got
5 the words "guided missile" from?
6 A. Maybe that reminded me. Perhaps that's how I remembered.
7 Q. When you answered Mr. Petrovic and he asked you had you seen the
8 photographs before and you said no, what did you mean by that?
9 A. Well, I saw the originals, if I can put it that way. I saw it in
10 the way they actually were.
11 Q. I don't understand. Can you explain -- what I'm trying to get --
12 stop, stop. Wait. What Mr. Petrovic asked you -- I asked you questions
13 in examination-in-chief about that report, I took you through the
14 photographs. Mr. Petrovic, in cross-examination, asked you whether you
15 had seen them before and you said no. You've just told us that you think
16 I provided them to you. What I want you to explain to the Trial Chamber
17 is why, when he asked you had you seen them before, you said no. Why did
18 you say no? And what did you mean by "No"?
19 A. Well, I really didn't look at them. I really didn't. I didn't
20 want to look perhaps. Perhaps that was stronger.
21 Q. Before you leave that exhibit, I just neglected to do it before.
22 I just want you to sign your name on the bottom of the front and put a
23 date on it, please.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. It's the 3rd of March.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. RE: And have we finished with P89, which is the map, putting
4 the legend on it?
5 Q. I just want to see the legend. Mr. Usher, could you possibly move
6 it to show the Court the legend. It clearly says X - witness's house, A -
7 Mr. Vladimir Srhoj's house, marked on the bottom right-hand corner.
8 Thank you. That concludes my re-examination.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Ogresta, I'm pleased to be able to tell you
10 that that concludes your evidence. You're now free to return to your
11 home. May we thank you for coming and for the assistance that you have
12 given to us.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
14 JUDGE PARKER: You may now go with the officer. Thank you.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE PARKER: The question arises, Mr. Re, what we do with the
17 remaining few minutes. It would not be practical to start another witness
18 I take it?
19 MR. RE: No, Mr. Davies will be the witness in the morning, first
20 thing. Could Your Honours -- could I place on the record that I informed
21 and raised with my learned colleague, Mr. Petrovic, during the break the
22 matter I've just re-examined the witness on in relation to the provision
23 to her of the photographs during the proofing or conferring and the
24 statement, and he was aware of it for the balance of his
1 JUDGE PARKER: We will then adjourn for the day.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.38 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 4th day of March,
4 2004, at 9.00 a.m.