Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3616

1 Monday, 8 March 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning to you. Mr. Re, is it, who is going

6 to lead this next witness.

7 MR. RE: I will be leading the next witness, who will be

8 Witness A, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Sorry, Mr. Petrovic.

10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour, I just

11 wish to introduce by associate, Mr. Mirko Mrkic, who will today represent

12 with me the defence of General Strugar.

13 Thank you, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Petrovic. We noticed that

15 Mr. Rodic has somehow adjusted his outward appearance.

16 Are we getting the witness?

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. Would you please take the

19 affirmation from the card that is in front of you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

21 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE PARKER: Please be seated.

25 Yes, Mr. Re.

Page 3617

1 Examined by Mr. Re:

2 Q. Good morning, Witness A. I'm going to show you a piece of paper

3 with your name and date of birth on it. I'd just like you to -- can you

4 hear me?

5 A. Yes, I can hear you -- I'm afraid I can't hear you. I can't hear

6 you very well.

7 MR. RE: Madam Usher, can I have that piece of paper back for a

8 moment. I want to substitute it --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's fine now, thank you. It's all

10 right now.

11 MR. RE:

12 Q. Witness A, can you please just look at that piece of paper. It

13 has your name and your date of birth on it. Can you please confirm that

14 those details are correct.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. RE: May that be received into evidence as an exhibit under

18 seal?

19 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received under seal.

20 THE REGISTRAR: And that will be Exhibit P93, Your Honours.

21 MR. RE: I'm going to ask the witness some personal details, so

22 could we go into private session for a moment, please?


24 [Private session]

25 (Redacted)

Page 3618












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12 Page 3619 redacted private session.














Page 3620

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

3 MR. RE:

4 Q. Were you mobilised in 1991, Witness A?

5 A. Not in 1991, no.

6 Q. When were you mobilised?

7 A. At the end of January, after the Republic of Croatia gained

8 recognition.

9 Q. And what year was that?

10 A. That was in 1992.

11 Q. Were you a civilian in December 1991?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You were living at Izmedju Polaca number 10. Is that -- and

14 that's in the Old Town. Can you please describe to the Trial Chamber --

15 I'm sorry. I withdraw that. I just want to go back in time a little bit.

16 Were you in Dubrovnik in October and November 1991?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were you living in the Old Town in October and November 1991?

19 A. I started living in the Old Town since the 11th of November, 1991.

20 Q. Why did you go to the Old Town in November -- to start living

21 there in November 1991?

22 A. On the 11th of November was when there was strong shooting in the

23 eastern part of town around the Belvedere Hotel, which was in fact the

24 last line of Dubrovnik's free zone territory, the last boundary. And

25 because of the strong shooting or shelling, the whole of the eastern

Page 3621












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3622

1 section of Dubrovnik was evacuated.

2 Q. Where were you living before the 11th of November?

3 A. From the 7th of October until the 11th of November, I lived where

4 I worked at my job in the Benedictine monastery called Sveti Jakov,

5 St. Jakov.

6 Q. You said there was heavy shelling on the 11th of November. Why

7 did you move from the Benedictine monastery outside the Old Town into the

8 Old Town?

9 A. Because it was impossible to continue living under shelling of

10 that kind. And so all the people that lived in Sveti Jakov, Zlati Potok

11 [phoen] and that general area moved towards the western district of the

12 Old Town and other parts of town too.

13 Q. Why did you go to the Old Town instead of some other place?

14 A. Since ancient times, there are fortifications, stone shelters in

15 the Old Town. And as the Old Town is under UNESCO protection, I thought

16 it would be safest to go to the Old Town, because most probably the army

17 would not open fire and target the Old Town.

18 Q. I want you to describe for the Trial Chamber the building in which

19 you went to live in November 1991. How many levels did it have, starting

20 from the street to the top?

21 A. From the ground floor to the top with -- including an attic, or

22 loft, five levels. That is to say, four levels, plus the area under the

23 roof.

24 Q. What was on the ground floor, that's the first level?

25 A. To the right of the building, which belonged to Mr. Ivo

Page 3623

1 Brandjelica, on the ground floor was a coffee bar.

2 Q. To the left, what was on the ground floor?

3 A. Some sort of shop selling goods, textiles.

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 Q. Was that the left or right side of the building?

8 Witness A, we might have to redact something there. Please be

9 aware we're in open session, and Your Honours will make a direction for

10 that to be redacted.

11 JUDGE PARKER: The name of the witness's wife will be redacted.

12 Is that all that you had in mind?

13 MR. RE: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 MR. RE:

16 Q. You described two sides of the building, the left and the right

17 side of the building. Was your wife living on the left or the right side,

18 as you stand facing it?

19 A. If we stand in front of the building looking at it from the

20 northerly side towards the facade, it would be on the right, the

21 right-hand side.

22 Q. What about the next floor up, which is the third level of the

23 second floor.

24 A. On the third level -- the third level was the one I used.

25 Q. The next level up?

Page 3624

1 A. That was empty, just like the attic or loft.

2 Q. What about the other side of the building, the left side?

3 A. On the left-hand side, on the third floor, there was a lady called

4 Milica Aleksic. And most of the time, she lived with us afterwards and

5 would go back to her building occasionally.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Does that call for further redaction, Mr. Re?

7 MR. RE: No, Your Honour. It's just the witness's name that's the

8 identifying feature, not the building itself or its occupants.

9 Q. How old was Ms. Aleksic in 1991?

10 A. She was about 75 years old.

11 Q. And what about in the attic? Was anyone living in the attic?

12 A. Mrs. Aleksic.

13 Q. I want to show you a plan, a map, which is a copy of P13. I just

14 want you to draw on it from above, sketching where your building was, and

15 mark it with a large A.

16 A. [Witness complies]

17 Q. Could you also, on top of where you've marked the A, which is on

18 Stradun, with an arrow pointing to a block -- which is to the north of

19 Izmedju Polaca, I want you to hatch in where your building was, as if you

20 were looking at it from above.

21 A. [Witness complies]

22 Q. The building there, is that number 10, or were there other numbers

23 such as 8, 9 and 10 in that particular block? You've circled a whole

24 block on the map.

25 A. Moving from the main square Orlandov Stup towards the west on the

Page 3625

1 right-hand side are the even numbers, and on the left-hand side the odd

2 numbers. The first number was number 8, Milica Aleksic, and the one I

3 lived in was number 10.

4 Q. Is it the same building?

5 A. Physically speaking, yes.

6 Q. 8 to 10 occupies the entire street, as you've circled?

7 A. Two entrances to the residential part of the building.

8 Q. All right. Thank you.

9 I'll just leave the map there for the moment. We'll come back to

10 it a bit later. On the top floor you've described there being an attic.

11 Did the attic have windows?

12 A. There were two so-called belvederes which looked out on to the

13 Stradun, the northern side.

14 Q. Belvederes, are they those open windows which are characteristic

15 of Dubrovnik, like --

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. Where were you on the 6th of December, 1991?

18 A. On the second level of the right-hand side of the building.

19 Q. Did you spend the night of the 5th of December, 1991, in that

20 building?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What about Mrs. Aleksic, did she spend that night with you as well

23 or in your wife's -- what I meant was in your wife's flat.

24 A. For 15 days already, she was with us -- together with us before

25 that, 15 days before.

Page 3626

1 Q. Approximately what time did you wake up on the morning of the 6th

2 of December?

3 A. I was woken up by the explosions far off, which kept coming

4 nearer, nearer, and could be heard louder and louder, and that was

5 around 5.00 o'clock.

6 Q. I want you to describe to the Trial Chamber the explosions that

7 you heard when you woke up, like how far away they sounded and the

8 intensity of them and the -- or the time distance between the explosions.

9 A. They were sort of stifled explosions. They probably -- the shells

10 fell around the ramparts, the walls of the Old Town. And to begin with,

11 the intervals were longer between two shells, but gradually these

12 intervals were shortened and they came fast, one after another. I

13 couldn't actually tell you the time of these intervals.

14 Q. What was yours and your wife's and Mrs. Aleksic's reaction to the

15 shelling? What did you do?

16 A. As the explosions became increasingly frequent, the first thing to

17 do was to find the safest possible place in the apartment. And we decided

18 that the bathroom was the safest place because it was middle. It was a

19 small bathroom with just a shower and located in the central part of the

20 apartment. So that's where we went. Mrs. Aleksic and my wife and I

21 myself, most of the time, spent our time there.

22 Q. Can you say how long you spent there, in the bathroom?

23 A. Well, from 5.00 o'clock in the morning -- I think it was about

24 6.00 o'clock actually when the shells started falling right around the

25 building itself. So say from 6.00 o'clock until 7.00 o'clock.

Page 3627

1 Mrs. Aleksic and my wife were indoors all the time. When there were

2 explosions that were obviously further away from the building, then I

3 would peek through the window to see what was going on.

4 Q. How long did the explosions and the shelling continue throughout

5 that day?

6 A. From 6.00 o'clock practically every second, every other second, a

7 shell would fall in various places within the old walls.

8 Q. What did you see when you peeked out the window? And are you

9 talking about the window on to Stradun?

10 A. Yes. Yes. That's the window I'm talking about.

11 Q. What did you see when you looked out that window?

12 A. I saw construction material falling from the roofs, from the

13 buildings, tiles, bricks, stone. This kept falling all the time right

14 next to the buildings and further on towards the middle of Stradun.

15 Q. How would you describe the intensity of the explosions as they

16 continued throughout the morning?

17 A. The explosions were terrible. One followed another. The

18 buildings were shaking as if there was an earthquake going on. There was

19 smoke everywhere. There was dust everywhere. There were these blazing

20 lights coming in through the window. To put it quite simply, it was hell.

21 Q. What could you smell?

22 A. The smell of burning and of gunpowder.

23 Q. Was your building hit by anything during the day?

24 A. Yes, the roof.

25 Q. When was the roof hit?

Page 3628

1 A. The roof was hit sometime between midday and 1.00 o'clock.

2 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber what happened to your roof.

3 A. I knew the roof had been hit, because the building was shaking all

4 the time. And every time the roof was hit, the house shook so badly as if

5 it were an earthquake.

6 Q. How many times did you feel an impact to your house that felt as

7 if something was hitting it?

8 A. The entire roof was hit, and also part of Mrs. Aleksic's roof.

9 And I could count three hits distinctly.

10 Q. Did you know a person called Pavo Urban?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How did you know him?

13 A. I knew him from town. Pavo Urban was a professional photographer.

14 He was involved in artistic photography. And, among other things, he

15 photographed all the damage due to the shelling. I had my father's

16 camera, and he moved all about town. And the first time I met him was in

17 St. Jakov. I knew him from before, actually.

18 Q. You just said you had your father's camera. Did you do something

19 with your father's camera?

20 A. Yes. Yes. I have about 40 minutes of video footage recorded.

21 Q. Did you see Pavo Urban on the 6th of December, 1991?

22 A. Yes. Yes. Around 2.00 o'clock, when I heard the voices of his

23 colleagues, other photographers, who were standing in Uska Street on the

24 corner to the west of my building. They were talking in loud voices.

25 They sounded panic-stricken. They were saying, Pavo was hit, Pavo was

Page 3629

1 hit. That moment I ran to the window. I recognised Mr. Miro Kerner and

2 Mr. Djukic who are also involved in photography. Miro Kerner died a few

3 years ago. Then I looked to the right and below the city bell tower, I

4 saw the body. It was lying on the ground without moving at all.

5 Q. Was it Mr. Urban's body?

6 A. I heard what they were saying. I myself could not recognise the

7 face of the victim from such a long distance.

8 Q. What position was the body lying?

9 A. He was lying on his left hip and -- as if he were crouching,

10 facing the west.

11 Q. I want to show you a photograph. Before I show you the

12 photograph, Witness A, can you tell the Trial Chamber what Mr. Urban was

13 wearing when you saw him -- when you say the body -- when you saw the body

14 lying on the ground.

15 A. He had a vest that he usually used, because it had a lot of

16 pockets where he kept his films and other material he needed. That was

17 his favorite vest that he used most of the time. It was very

18 dark-coloured. It was civilian clothing at any rate.

19 Q. What about his trousers? Can you recall what he was wearing?

20 A. Jeans, I think.

21 Q. All right. I want you to have a look at a photograph the usher is

22 about to show you. Can you identify the person in that photograph?

23 A. From this nearby, yes.

24 Q. Who is it?

25 A. Pavo Urban.

Page 3630

1 Q. And is Mr. Urban wearing the same clothes in that photo that you

2 saw him wearing when you saw the body on the ground on the 6th of

3 December, 1991?

4 A. From that far away, the colours could not be discerned.

5 Q. Let's have a look at the -- what he's got on his top. What's

6 he -- what is Mr. Urban wearing in the -- on his top?

7 A. A camera behind his left hand -- oh, yes, as far as clothing is

8 concerned, it's the vest. It was not the vest he wore every day. This is

9 red.

10 Q. To the top left of that photograph, there is some building

11 structure. What is that?

12 A. This is a passage below the city bell tower.

13 Q. And is that where you saw the body lying?

14 A. Yes, that spot.

15 Q. All right.

16 MR. RE: May that be received into evidence?

17 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

18 THE REGISTRAR: And that will be marked as Exhibit P94, Your

19 Honours.

20 MR. RE:

21 Q. What did you do after you saw Mr. Urban's colleagues gathered

22 around the body, saying he'd been hit?

23 A. At that time the shells were falling at such a great intensity,

24 that is to say, between midday and 2.00 o'clock. His colleagues would

25 have had to risk their lives, and they certainly would have gotten killed

Page 3631

1 themselves, had they tried to drag him away and had they run up to him.

2 Q. What did you do? You looked out the window, you saw his

3 colleagues there, what did --

4 A. Yes, yes. I looked out of the window to the right, I saw the

5 body, and then I went back and I told my wife that Pavo was hit and that I

6 would try to move him away from there. However, she started crying and

7 she said, "No, you'll get killed." I went to the window again.

8 Underneath the window at that moment there was an ambulance that was

9 passing by. And I watched all of it. They came to him, and then I went

10 back to my wife and I said that an ambulance had come and that I would not

11 go. When I went back to the window again, I looked right, and I did not

12 see the body any longer, and I did not see the ambulance any longer.

13 Q. Did you attend Mr. Urban's funeral?

14 A. These were times of confusion. I got there, but I was actually

15 late. There weren't any obituaries, there weren't any newspapers. So

16 basically I was late for the funeral. There weren't many people. There

17 was still shelling even during those days up there, so the cemetery was

18 actually exposed. It was hard at any rate to bury people day in, day out.

19 Q. I want you to turn to the map which is on your left and mark with

20 a circle, a large one, and the letter B where you saw Mr. Urban's body

21 lying.

22 A. [Witness complies]

23 Q. Can the record reflect the witness has drawn a circle between 14

24 and 15 on the western side -- sorry, the eastern side of the map and has

25 marked it a B.

Page 3632

1 Now, Witness A, can you please down the bottom right hand of the

2 map, can you please write "Witness A." If you can write it in English, it

3 would help, W-i-t-n-e-s-s A, and put today's date on it, which I believe

4 is the 8th of March.

5 All right. I'm going to show you another plan before we leave

6 that. It's a copy of P17, which is an overhead photograph of Dubrovnik.

7 I want you to use a finer pen and please do the same, mark with an A and a

8 circle and arrow -- if you put an A at the top, an arrow down, and a

9 circle where your house is -- was in 1991. And a B where Mr. Urban's --

10 where you saw Mr. Urban's body.

11 A. [Witness complies]

12 Q. And please also write "Witness A" in the margin and the date.

13 A. [Witness complies]

14 MR. RE: May those two documents be received into evidence,

15 firstly the map and secondly the photograph?

16 JUDGE PARKER: The map and the photograph will be separately

17 received.

18 THE REGISTRAR: The map will be Exhibit P95. And the photograph

19 P96, Your Honours.

20 MR. RE:

21 Q. Now, Witness A, you described earlier feeling three detonations to

22 your house. Can you remember approximately for how long the shelling

23 continued, if at all, after you saw Mr. Urban's body?

24 A. The most intensive shelling was from 6.00 -- actually, I told you

25 it started at 5.00. That's when I first registered the explosions. And

Page 3633

1 then from 6.00 onwards, the shelling became continuous. From midday until

2 2.00 or 3.00 o'clock, there was hellish shelling. And then around 2.00

3 o'clock, Pavo Urban was killed -- or actually I heard voices that it was

4 Pavo that had been hit. And I saw the body around 2.00 o'clock. And the

5 last projectiles fell around 8.00 o'clock, 8.00 o'clock at night. And

6 from 6.00 p.m. until 8.00 p.m., the shelling was subsiding considerably,

7 but explosions could still be heard.

8 Q. When did you manage to inspect the damage to your house?

9 A. Around 7.00 o'clock voices could be heard in the street. I saw

10 that fire trucks had entered town. They were putting out fires, because

11 there were buildings that were burning. I went down around 8.00. I went

12 out and walked along Stradun. Quite simply, it was difficult to pass

13 through Stradun. It was dark. There were no lights except from the

14 lights coming from the fire trucks and from the blazes in the buildings.

15 Q. And what about the damage to your house? When did you manage to

16 have a look at the damage to your house and see what had happened to it?

17 A. I went out then in the dark, and the explosion had quite simply

18 opened the roof. The left belvedere had been destroyed. And next to it I

19 saw some other damage that was sustained by the roof. So then it was

20 obvious that there had been two hits. On the sofa, I found the stabiliser

21 fin of a mortar shell. So it was the back part of the shell.

22 Q. What was the calibre of the stabiliser shell?

23 A. 120 millimetres.

24 Q. How do you know that?

25 A. Later on I found out, because in January I was mobilised. And at

Page 3634

1 these mortar positions, I had occasion to hold an entire 120-millimetre

2 mortar shell in my hands. And then I saw that it was that calibre. And I

3 saw it in relation to my own hand, right?

4 Q. Were there any holes in your building or in the roof?

5 A. Yes. There was great damage. One of the belvederes, the western

6 one, was completely blown out. And westward, there was a concentric

7 circle that was part of that belvedere window, and then there was a

8 smaller circle that had blended into the bigger circle. So I realised

9 that there had to have been two projectiles.

10 Q. When you say "two projectiles," are you saying two different sized

11 projectiles?

12 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. There were two projectiles of different size

13 calibre.

14 Q. You said you found a stabiliser fin on a sofa. Where was this

15 sofa?

16 A. This sofa was right below that belvedere. It was leaning on the

17 wall, the western wall. And this stabiliser burned a hole in the sofa as

18 it fell. And thank God that it didn't set fire on the sofa itself.

19 Q. I'm going to show you a clip of a video, which is of P78, from

20 time marker 20 minutes to 22 minutes.

21 [Videotape played]

22 MR. RE:

23 Q. And what I want you to do is point out to the Trial Chamber if you

24 see your house in 1991 [sic]. You've stopped at 20:16 on the timer. What

25 do you see? There's a building on the left of the clip.

Page 3635

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. There appears to be a laneway. Is that your building?

3 A. That's Uska Street, where I go into from the Stradun, and it's

4 opposite the residential part of the building. And this entrance here is

5 the entrance to the coffee bar, and it's still a coffee bar today.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MR. RE:

8 Q. You've stopped at 21:51 on P78. What do you see?

9 A. In front you can see the bell tower of the town. And to the

10 right, the first building, and the second building is my building. And up

11 on top you can see the belvedere windows that were completely destroyed.

12 The larger one is, in fact, the belvedere that was completely shattered by

13 the explosion; to the west of it was a smaller one, a smaller hit.

14 Q. And can you see the spot on that building where you saw

15 Mr. Urban's body -- I'm sorry. I said "building," I meant on the street.

16 A. Yes. Underneath the archway to the passage on the left-hand side

17 of the bell tower.

18 [Videotape played]

19 MR. RE:

20 Q. And does that video clip which we've just shown you depict the

21 state of the Stradun in the Old Town of Dubrovnik on the 7th of December,

22 1991?

23 A. At this point in time, the street had been cleaned considerably.

24 There was far more debris before. And the vehicles couldn't move around

25 at all, nor could the pedestrians. There was a sort of passageway through

Page 3636

1 the centre, but the vehicles couldn't get through. And as you see it now,

2 this is already considerably cleaned up, the large portions of rubble.

3 MR. RE: May that video clip be received into evidence as a

4 separate exhibit,, that is, the clip of P78 from time 20 minutes to 22

5 minutes?

6 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

7 THE REGISTRAR: That clip will be Prosecution Exhibit P97, Your

8 Honours.

9 MR. RE:

10 Q. Can you describe whether there was damage to other buildings in

11 Izmedju Polaca from the shelling on the 6th of December, 1991.

12 A. Quite simply, there wasn't a single building in the Old Town which

13 was not destroyed, at least in part. Either the facade or the roof or

14 some part of it. Everything was destroyed more or less, each one. Some

15 more, some less.

16 Q. What about in your own street, Izmedju Polaca, are there any

17 buildings there that you can describe to the Trial Chamber as having

18 sustained particular damage?

19 A. Yes. All the buildings that were on fire, they burnt down. I

20 know their locations. Some names I might not know, but I do know the

21 buildings and in fact where they're situated.

22 Q. In your own street, Izmedju Polaca, where you were living in 1991?

23 A. Yes. More or less all the roofs had been damaged, some by direct

24 hits, others by indirect ones, hits to the facade, and so on. It was

25 impossible to -- for them to remain in tact after all those projectiles.

Page 3637

1 Q. Did any authorities inspect the damage to your building, that's 8

2 to 10 Izmedju Polaca?

3 A. Immediately after these occurrences, a week to ten days

4 afterwards, after the 6th, expert teams from the conservation museum and

5 institute for the protection of cultural monuments came by to investigate

6 and assess the damage. I assumed they recorded the damage professionally

7 in the Old Town.

8 Q. I want to show you an extract of a report, which is MFI 51. I'm

9 going to show you, for the record, pages 01069560, 01069561, 01069562,

10 with accompanying draft translations. Turning to the first page,

11 Witness A, that's 01069560, it's a report of an inspection of Izmedju

12 Polaca 10 on the 13th of December, 1991. I want you to go to description

13 of damage and just read that to yourself for a moment.

14 You've read it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Witness A, the first sentence: "The direct blow," et cetera, is

17 that a correct description of the damage to the building?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Please read the next sentence beginning: "In the attic," and

20 likewise, is that a correct description of the damage to your building on

21 the 6th of December?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The third sentence -- sorry, sentence, "Shattered window panes,"

24 and so on.

25 A. Yes.

Page 3638

1 Q. The next one: "Damage is done to the door and window frames," and

2 so on, is that a correct description?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And the last sentence: "The same facade had damages of window

5 panes in all the upper storeys." Is that a correct description of the

6 damage you saw?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. The next paragraph is headed "Estimate of Damage."

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Ignoring the last two words which are category 2. Is what is

11 written there a correct description of the damage to your building on that

12 day?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The next part is miscellaneous remarks: "A stabiliser of the

15 projectile was found in the attic," which you've already described in

16 evidence. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Please turn to the next page, 01069561.

19 MR. RE: I point out to Your Honours, it's a draft translation.

20 There appears to be an error in the second category, which is location.

21 It's 8 in the original and the translation has a 10 on it.

22 Q. Again, please just read to yourself a description of the damage.

23 Is Izmedju Polaca 8, is that the left-hand side of the building where

24 Mrs. Aleksic lived?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3639

1 Q. Going to the first sentence of description of damage: "A direct

2 hit to the roof -- at the roof," et cetera, is that a correct description

3 of what occurred and the damage that you saw?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The next sentence: "Damaged occurred in the attic," and so on.

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. The next sentence: "On the northern facade."

8 A. Yes. Correct.

9 Q. Thank you. And is that the last sentence in that portion in

10 Croatian?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. RE: If Your Honours notice on the draft translation it

13 appears that there has been a cut and paste from the previous page with

14 damages done to the door and window frames. It seems to have been cut

15 from the other page. We'll have that attended to and have the translation

16 revised.

17 Q. Go to the next category, which is -- or next paragraph

18 headed estimate of damage. Just ignoring the last two words, category 2.

19 Is that a correct description of the damage to the left-hand side of the

20 building facing Stradun? It's number 8.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And underneath that it's miscellaneous and (remarks) and it

23 says: "One small shrapnel and a 120-millimetre piece of the projectile

24 stabiliser were found in the attic."

25 What can you say about that?

Page 3640

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. The next page, please, is 01069562. It has -- it's a -- it is a

3 photograph. Is that a photograph on the left of number 8 and on the right

4 of number 10, Izmedju Polaca?

5 A. This is the facade of the building, looking at it from the Stradun

6 side to the north.

7 Q. You described looking out of a window and seeing Mr. Urban's body.

8 Is that window in this photograph?

9 A. Yes, the right building.

10 Q. And that's the window above the arched door?

11 A. Above the right door, yes, with the arch.

12 Q. And so that we can identify this particular exhibit, can you

13 please write on the front "Witness A," and the date on the front page of

14 the document.

15 A. [Witness complies]

16 MR. RE: May that be received into evidence, too?


18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P98, Your

19 Honours.

20 MR. RE: And for the record, I indicate the damage described

21 refers to the building described at page 3137 in the running page number

22 of Schedule 2 to the Amended Indictment.

23 Q. Witness A, were you aware of the UNESCO protected status of the

24 Old Town in October, November, December 1991?

25 A. Even the smallest child knew that. Everybody knew that living

Page 3641

1 there.

2 Q. Were there any obvious signs in the Old Town during that period to

3 show that it was a UNESCO protected World Heritage Site?

4 A. Yes. Up on Minceta fortress, which is the most dominant within

5 the Old Town, or over the Old Town, was the UNESCO flag that was flying.

6 And on certain dominant buildings as well within the Old Town, you would

7 see signs on many places, many buildings. Specific dark blue UNESCO

8 signs, which testified to the category and the value of each particular

9 building.

10 Q. And what effect, if any, did the flying of these banners or signs

11 or flags have on the morale of the people of Dubrovnik?

12 A. It had a positive psychological effect on everybody. However, the

13 people thought quite blindly, unfortunately, that this fact would prevent

14 any shelling of the Old Town.

15 Q. In October, November, December 1991, did you see any military

16 presence in the Old Town in Dubrovnik?

17 A. No. There was no military presence in the Old Town at all. If a

18 soldier happened to enter, he would enter without any weapons, and he was

19 entering probably because he lived there. That would be the only reason.

20 Q. You've told the Trial Chamber you were a civilian. Was your wife

21 a civilian in 1991?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What was her occupation --

24 A. She was. Everybody was more or less a civilian.

25 Q. What was your wife's occupation in 1991, December 1991?

Page 3642

1 A. She's a qualified cook, and she worked at the Libertas Hotel,

2 which was badly damaged like many other buildings.

3 Q. What was the age range of the people living in the area in which

4 you lived in, in the Old Town, that is around Izmedju Polaca? Young?

5 Old? In between?

6 A. Most people in the Old Town were elderly persons. Those who

7 weren't able to leave the town on time before it was blocked. Of course

8 there were people of different ages, but mostly I would say elderly

9 people, senior citizens.

10 MR. RE: That's the evidence in-chief, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Re.

12 That will obviously be a convenient time for a break. We will

13 have a 20-minute break now.

14 --- Recess taken at 10.23 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrovic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. A, I am Defence counsel. My name is Vladimir

20 Petrovic, and I am going to be putting some questions to you in relation

21 to your testimony in court today.

22 A. Please go ahead.

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please move into private

24 session, please.


Page 3643

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Page 3649

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2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Tell me, Mr. A, how was it that you established contact with the

9 investigators of the International Tribunal?

10 A. They telephoned me and they asked me whether I wished to make a

11 statement, and I agreed.

12 Q. Can you tell me who it was that called you and when this happened,

13 of course if you can remember?

14 A. I do not remember the full name. But he did take a statement from

15 me, a gentleman who is a Pakistani. I don't know. I can't remember his

16 name.

17 Q. Please be so kind as to tell us where it was that you gave this

18 gentleman, this investigator, your statement.

19 A. In Dubrovnik.

20 Q. Please be so kind as to tell me where this exactly took place.

21 A. The Kompas Hotel in the Babin Kuk area.

22 Q. Did you tell the investigator, the gentleman, on the -- on that

23 occasion that you required protective measures in order to be able to

24 testify before the International Tribunal?

25 A. Not then, because at that time I wasn't employed by this company

Page 3650

1 yet.

2 Q. When was it that you told my distinguished colleagues from the

3 Office of the Prosecutor that you wished to testify with full protective

4 measures before the Trial Chamber?

5 A. It was, say, in mid-December when they first contacted me and they

6 said that they wished for me to testify here. But that was my

7 precondition.

8 Q. Did you tell my colleagues exactly what the reasons were why you

9 wanted to testify under protective measures?

10 A. Who do you mean?

11 Q. My colleagues from the Office of the Prosecutor.

12 A. Yes, I told them exactly.

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I move on to my next

14 questions now.

15 Q. Did you have the opportunity to read the statement you gave to the

16 gentleman from the OTP?

17 A. I did not, because I was told that I could not get a copy, either

18 in Croatian or in English because those were the regulations of the court.

19 The first time I read the statement was when I first came here in January.

20 Q. Mr. A, when you made this statement in the year 2000, was this

21 statement read out to you?

22 A. It was simultaneously interpreted from English into Croatian, but

23 it was not translated in writing.

24 Q. Did you listen carefully to what the interpreter was saying? Did

25 you have any objections then in 2000?

Page 3651

1 A. Yes, more or less, like to your colleagues this time.

2 Q. Did they include these objections of yours in the text of the

3 statement?

4 A. I don't know. I do not know.

5 Q. So everything that is contained in this statement and that you

6 read obviously when you came here to The Hague, does it exactly refer to

7 everything you said in 2000 to the investigator?

8 A. I think that this is a very superficial translation into the

9 Croatian language.

10 Q. So all possible mistakes are due to the translation. There are no

11 material mistakes in terms of your statement?

12 A. No. Most of the mistakes have to do with grammar and style.

13 Q. All right. Please be so kind as to tell us then -- or rather,

14 tell the Honourable Trial Chamber where it was that you lived in 1991

15 until these events took place, the ones that we have been talking about

16 here today.

17 A. In 1982 we had finally completed our family house in Cilipi, near

18 Dubrovnik airport. My parents, my younger sister, and I came to Cilipi to

19 live there together. I entered university in 1979, 1980, and that's when

20 we started building this house. And then we finally finished it by

21 1982 -- or rather, in 1982 I was registered officially at that address.

22 Before that, I was registered in Rumbovci [phoen] in the municipality of

23 Rama in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24 Q. So since 1991 you have been living in Cilipi?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3652

1 Q. Tell me, what was the political situation like in Croatia in that

2 year, 1991?

3 A. I am not a professional politician, but it was very confusing.

4 Q. Is it correct that you together with the other inhabitants of

5 Cilipi already in the summer of 1991 started organising yourselves so that

6 you could protect your area from enemy attacks, as you had put it?

7 A. That is correct. We were not mobilised. We were self-organised.

8 Q. What else was it that you did in the summer of 1991?

9 A. I worked in the institute at St. Jakov.

10 Q. What did you do with the other citizens of Cilipi in terms of

11 organising the defence, as you had put it?

12 A. Since we did not have any significant defence equipment, we just

13 stood guard and we were to -- we were trying to prevent a surprise attack

14 from the enemy, either from land or sea. That's the only thing we could

15 do. Our hands were tied.

16 Q. In your statement you say that the development of the political

17 situation forced people in Cilipi to organise themselves in order to

18 defend their area.

19 Now, how did you intend to defend your area when you started

20 organising yourselves in Cilipi? What form did that take?

21 A. Well, the answer emerges from what I said a moment ago, from my

22 previous answer.

23 Q. Tell me, please, who was in charge of this organisation of

24 defence? Who organised Cilipi's defence, and I'm talking about the summer

25 of 1991.

Page 3653

1 A. Nobody was in charge, because nobody did that in an organised

2 fashion at all. We would do it based on our own instincts.

3 Q. So you're telling us that in the summer of 1991 you were

4 organised, but you didn't have any organisational structure, nobody in

5 charge, nobody at the head of all this, issuing orders, making decisions,

6 that kind of thing. Is that what you're saying?

7 A. Yes, correct.

8 Q. Well, tell me, then, please, how were you able to put your defence

9 assignments into practice if there was nobody to head you, to lead you?

10 A. We just monitored the situation, waited to see what was happening.

11 Then we would tell the elderly and infirm to take refuge, those who wanted

12 to take refuge, but quite a lot of people stayed on, even during the

13 occupation in the area.

14 Q. Who was the head of the HDZ at Cilipi at that time, in 1991?

15 A. I can't remember.

16 Q. Who was the head of the local department at Cilipi office at

17 Cilipi at the time?

18 A. I can't remember that either. It was a long time ago, 14 years

19 ago.

20 Q. Who was the chief of police at Cilipi at the time?

21 A. There wasn't a police station at Cilipi. There was just the

22 police station in Dubrovnik.

23 Q. Who was the chief of police at the airport then at Cilipi?

24 A. I don't know. I really don't know.

25 Q. In your statement you said - and I'm talking about page 2 of your

Page 3654

1 statement and it is paragraph 5 - that: "Everyone," and we're talking

2 about the period before October 1991, "all the younger people from my

3 village, all young men from the village between the age of 16 to 60 were

4 mobilised."

5 That's how your sentence reads. Please let me finish and ask my

6 question. Is that true? How many people and who mobilised them?

7 A. That is an erroneous translation from Croatian into English.

8 Nobody was mobilised.

9 MR. RE: Your Honour.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Re.

11 MR. RE: Could I just ask that my learned friend put the complete

12 sentence to the witness, which reads: "All young men from the village

13 between the age of 16 to 60 were mobilised, and their weapons were hunting

14 rifles. The total number of men mobilised from Cilipi was about 50."

15 If he could put that to the witness rather than just take parts of

16 a sentence.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Petrovic.

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] May I ask that my microphone not be

19 switched on -- switched off, if that doesn't present a problem to the

20 technical booth.

21 Now, Your Honours, in the B/C/S version of this statement, and

22 that is the mother tongue of this particular witness, this section is

23 divided into three separate sentences. I quoted the first sentence from

24 that set of sentences, and I was just about to quote the second sentence

25 and the third sentence. And I wasn't intending to mislead the witness.

Page 3655

1 And anybody looking at the B/C/S version of the witness statement will be

2 able to see that for themselves.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic. And I was also going to

4 observe that the core of your question was the issue of mobilisation, and

5 that, I think, is what you're focusing on.

6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes.

7 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. A, why, what was happening at Cilipi during

8 that period of time you don't denote as being mobilisation?

9 A. Well, when you say "mobilisation," I think of a state in the name

10 of defence or, rather, defence activities or aggressive activities for

11 that matter, mobilised the military-able men. And I'm sure you're well

12 aware of that. I'm sure your protege is well aware of that.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All we did was to organise

15 ourselves.

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation].

17 Q. In your statement from the year 2000, the word "mobilised," as

18 mentioned on page 2, you repeat three times. You say: "All young men

19 from my village between the ages of 16 and 60 were mobilised."

20 Then you say a little later on: "As far as I know, our village

21 went into mobilisation independently of others." And then on that same

22 page, you mention "mobilisation" for the third time.

23 On page 3 of your statement you also mention it. When you speak

24 about Ivan Rados you say he was mobilised.

25 Then again on page 5 of your statement you say: "When the

Page 3656

1 situation in Dubrovnik deteriorated, the local Croats mobilised into a

2 struggle against the enemy."

3 So why now do you think it's a problem for you to confirm that

4 people were in fact mobilised?

5 A. I think it's just the wrong translation from English into

6 Croatian. Or Serbian, if you prefer.

7 Q. Have you heard about mobilisation appeals over Radio Dubrovnik?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Tell me, please, was mobilisation ever proclaimed in Dubrovnik?

10 A. Mobilisation in Dubrovnik was proclaimed, and that was when I

11 myself was mobilised. That is to say, towards the end of January 1992,

12 after Croatia had been recognised.

13 Q. Are you telling this Honourable Trial Chamber that the Republic of

14 Croatia in 1991 did not proclaim a state of general mobilisation?

15 A. Perhaps it did, but not in that area. It wasn't functioning.

16 Q. What particular assignments did you have in Cilipi, as you

17 yourself say, in organising a defence? You yourself, what did you do

18 specifically? What were your tasks?

19 A. Specifically speaking, when night fell for two or three hours I

20 would be on duty at Konavli Stijena, the cliffs on our beach there, to

21 monitor the movement of ships, vessels, if there was any, among other

22 things, but just to observe this. I was there to observe any movement on

23 the sea.

24 Q. And if you should happen to notice a ship, who would you inform?

25 What would you do?

Page 3657

1 A. Then I'd tell my colleagues, and then we would decide what to do,

2 whether to inform people in -- go from house to house informing people.

3 Q. And how many times did you actually notice any ships, vessels?

4 A. While I lived in Konavle, not a single one.

5 Q. What else were you able to observe from this vantage point of

6 yours?

7 A. We weren't in one spot. We moved around within a radius of one or

8 two kilometres in the different villages, settlements, and part of Cilipi,

9 Cilipi being the largest village in the then-Dubrovnik municipality.

10 Q. So that means that all the inhabitants of Cilipi between the ages

11 of 16 and 60 were involved in this activity that you have described for

12 us?

13 A. As they saw fit, according to their own instincts.

14 Q. How many military-able men were there between the ages of 16 and

15 60 at Cilipi at that point in time?

16 A. I don't know. I really couldn't say.

17 Q. Well, give us a rough estimate then, please.

18 A. Well, the number I mentioned, about 50, thereabouts.

19 Q. How far towards the Montenegrin border did you go?

20 A. I personally, with this group from Cilipi, the furthest I went to

21 was Radovcici, the village of Radovcici to the east, which is about three

22 kilometres eastwards, or in a south-easterly direction with respect to

23 Cilipi.

24 Q. Before the 1st of October, did you -- I'm asking you about before

25 the 1st of October. How far did you and your unit go or group of people

Page 3658

1 from Cilipi? What was the furthest it went to the east?

2 A. I said within a radius of about one to two kilometres.

3 Q. Could you please tell us, from this furthest point that you

4 reached, how far was it to the Montenegrin border, both to the west and to

5 the east and to the north?

6 A. The Montenegrin border stretches in the direction of north/south,

7 if you're looking at it from the Konavle aspect, roughly. Now, the

8 village of Radovcici that I mentioned is about five kilometres away, up to

9 Debeli Brijeg specifically or Vitaljina and the peninsula to the

10 south-east.

11 Q. Let's be more specific and precise. What I asked you was: Before

12 the 1st of October you told us you had gone to -- within a radius of two

13 kilometres from Cilipi. Now, this furthest point from Cilipi, how far is

14 that point to the Montenegrin border. Radovcici is five kilometres from

15 your village you said. So how far is the furthest point you reached from

16 Debeli Brijeg?

17 A. Six kilometres roughly.

18 Q. Tell me, please, what were you able to see from there? What were

19 you doing there?

20 A. We couldn't see anything. We were on duty, kept watch. But we

21 heard from stories that on the 23rd of September the JNA forces and the

22 volunteers on the other side had crossed the Croatian border at Bani

23 [phoen], Debeli Brijeg, and up there in the region of Dubravka.

24 Q. Tell us, the 23rd of what month?

25 A. It was September, the ninth month, September.

Page 3659

1 Q. So you have told us that you saw nothing there, you did nothing

2 there, you were just there and doing guard duty or on watch?

3 A. Well, we didn't sit around; we walked around.

4 Q. Tell me, please, why you told the investigators that you noticed

5 movement of JNA units along the border belt. Where were you able to see

6 that from, to observe that from, if you weren't close up by the border?

7 A. I heard that from people who were withdrawing, people who had

8 assessed that the time had come for them to withdraw to the west towards

9 Dubrovnik. And they passed through Cilipi, so we heard about that. And

10 the first time I personally observed that was on the evening of the 5th at

11 Radovcici. I saw a column.

12 Q. I am trying to ask you up until the 1st of October, and please

13 tell me, up to the 1st of October is what you said: "We observed JNA

14 movement along the border belt." You're talking about mobilisation,

15 people ranging between 16 to 60, hunting rifles and so on. Up to the 1st

16 of October. So I'm asking you where it was you were able to notice JNA

17 movement up to that time?

18 A. People who lived in the border villages talked about it, talked

19 about noticing this.

20 Q. So you yourself did not actually see anything, although you say

21 here that you saw it?

22 A. The wrong translation again.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, what were you armed with up until the 1st of

24 October?

25 A. I had my father's hunting rifle.

Page 3660

1 Q. How many armed persons were there in that group of yours of 50 men

2 from Cilipi before the 1st of October?

3 A. Well, most people had some sort of long-barrelled weapon. Mostly

4 they were hunting rifles, and somebody who might have purchased for their

5 own money a carbine, which is a rifle with a bullet, M-48 calibre, if I'm

6 right.

7 Q. Tell me, anybody in the region of Cilipi, did they have any

8 military weapons at all?

9 A. Perhaps some people did -- well, some of them did. They had some

10 sort of automatic rifle that they had purchased themselves, but that was

11 rare, very few of those.

12 Q. Could you tell me please where one could purchase an automatic

13 rifle at that time.

14 A. I really don't know.

15 Q. Tell me, please, after the 1st of October now, up until, let's

16 say, the 15th of October, during that period of time, what weapon did you

17 personally have and what weapons did your group have?

18 A. Hunting rifles, the military carbines, and military rifles of the

19 M-48 calibre type.

20 Q. In your statement you say that perhaps there were some organised

21 Croatian forces in Dubrovnik. Do you know anything about organised

22 Croatian forces in Dubrovnik itself at the period -- material period, that

23 is to say, before the 1st of October?

24 A. I don't know. From mid-September we no longer went to work. And

25 I was in Cilipi all the time. So after mid-September, I didn't go into

Page 3661

1 Dubrovnik to work anymore.

2 Q. Well, could you please tell us why it was that from mid-September

3 you didn't go to work any longer? Because of your assignments in the

4 Cilipi unit or what?

5 A. No. Quite simply, we received orders from the academy that we

6 weren't to go to work anymore for our own safety and security.

7 Q. Do you know that at this time that you're talking about now there

8 was absolutely nothing going on in the territory of the municipality of

9 Dubrovnik, the town of Dubrovnik, in the month of September there was

10 peace in the area. Do you know that?

11 A. Yes. Yes. There were no physical military operations; that's

12 true. But there was a war in Eastern Slavonia, and this did affect the

13 population to a considerable extent.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mr. Petrovic.

15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Did everybody stop working in Dubrovnik in mid-September?

17 A. I don't know about that.

18 Q. Do you know about your relatives, friends, your future wife?

19 A. Well, specifically my wife did work. She told me about it later;

20 I didn't know about it at the time.

21 Q. So it was only the Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts that

22 stopped working in mid-September?

23 A. That I know. The institute at Sveti Jakov.

24 Q. Since it stopped working, there was no need for you to go towards

25 the town of Dubrovnik. Is that right?

Page 3662

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did anybody from Cilipi go to the town of Dubrovnik at the time?

3 A. Probably.

4 Q. Did somebody perhaps talk about that? You were engaged in the

5 defence of your village and your state. Were you not interested in what

6 was going on in Dubrovnik at the time?

7 A. I was interested. People talked about different things, but I

8 think that this was so that they would not personally be afraid and that

9 the morale would be high. I don't know whether these stories were

10 correct, though.

11 Q. Please be so kind as to tell me what the last sentence on page 2

12 means -- or rather, the first sentence in the last paragraph of page 2 of

13 your statement where it says: "Together with the defenders from my area,

14 I continued to resist the enemy aggression."

15 A. Mistranslation.

16 Q. Please be so kind as to tell us then what it was that you meant

17 when you said something that was obviously not what is written here. What

18 was it that you said?

19 A. I probably said, "Together with my colleagues, fellow citizens, we

20 stayed on in Cilipi."

21 Q. So you said, "I stayed in Cilipi with my colleagues," and the

22 interpreter translated it by saying: "Together with the defenders from

23 my area, I continued resisting enemy aggression"?

24 A. Yes. The entire population that was attacked were actually the

25 defenders, but they were organised in different ways.

Page 3663

1 Q. Now we are moving on to the period after the 1st of October. So

2 there was no organisation, no units. There was nothing in the territory

3 of Konavle and Cilipi as the biggest village in the area of Konavle?

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. So in your statement you said: "Along with other defenders from

6 my area, I continued to resist the enemy aggression."

7 And on the 25th of January this year, you said to my learned

8 friends: [In English] "From my area. We continued to observe enemy

9 movements as we had nothing to resist with. We reported to the villagers

10 what was happening and were able to warn others."

11 [Interpretation] Sir, why are you dodging the issue? Why are you

12 avoiding telling the Trial Chamber that you were actively involved in the

13 defence of your village?

14 A. If this is active defence, then it is true, what I described to

15 you just now.

16 Q. If they did not understand you correctly the first time, my

17 learned friends, did they understand you correctly the second time? Do

18 you mean what you said this other time?

19 A. This is the same assertion, like the previous question you put to

20 me.

21 Q. Although this statement was read out to you, you did not say a

22 word about any of this having been inaccurate, that you resisted

23 aggression, that you defended yourself. If it is incorrect, it should not

24 be part of your statement.

25 A. I did say that it was a mistranslation, that it was incorrect.

Page 3664

1 Q. You said that in 2002 -- in 2000 as well?

2 A. I do not remember what I said in 2000. Do you remember what you

3 were saying in 2000?

4 Q. I'm asking you that because I know that my colleagues work

5 professionally and conscientiously. So I'm asking you this because I am

6 quite sure that at that time you did not say anything to them. When you

7 came here, you came to realise that it was not very good for you to have

8 your role in all of this scene. You tried to present yourself as an

9 innocent onlooker and that you did not do anything vis-a-vis the JNA?

10 A. That's not correct. What you are saying is what you are saying,

11 and I said what I had to say.

12 Q. Under whose command were you after the 1st of October in 1991?

13 A. Nobody's command.

14 Q. Did anybody command this unit of 50 men from the region of Cilipi?

15 A. We reached agreement together. We made conclusions together.

16 Q. So in some self-management manner you decided how you would defend

17 your village?

18 A. Precisely, in a self-management manner.

19 Q. Have you heard of a man called Nojko Marinovic?

20 A. Yes, I have heard of General Marinovic.

21 Q. From the 1st of October onwards, were you under the direct command

22 of Nojko Marinovic?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Where did you move about after the 1st of October in the region of

25 Konavle?

Page 3665

1 A. I've already told you that, within a two-kilometre range.

2 Q. What did you do in the village of Radovcici?

3 A. About 20 of us came along the coast to the hillocks around

4 Radovcici. And at a distance of about 100 or 200 metres, we saw a column

5 of different military vehicles. And pieces of equipment that were moving

6 at a slow pace in the direction of Popovici.

7 Q. Please be so kind as to tell us when did the JNA cross the border

8 near Debeli Brijeg? When was that? Was it on the 1st of October, 1991?

9 A. I don't know about that.

10 Q. Was it on that 23rd of September that you referred to a few

11 minutes ago?

12 A. That's what I heard.

13 Q. Tell me, between the 23rd of September and the 5th of October,

14 what was actually going on? How many kilometres was the JNA supposed to

15 travel over these two weeks and more?

16 A. I said that Radovcici is about five kilometres away from the

17 border, in my estimate.

18 Q. So why did the JNA not cover this distance throughout that time?

19 Do you know about that?

20 A. I don't know about that. The JNA probably knows.

21 Q. Did anybody put up a resistance to the JNA in Konavle?

22 A. According to stories that were bandied about, there was some

23 resistance in the area near the border. That's what I heard.

24 Q. And nobody else offered any resistance to the JNA units moving

25 from Debeli Brijeg to Cavtat, for instance?

Page 3666

1 A. I did not see any such thing myself.

2 Q. Do you know that the defence forces of the town of Dubrovnik were

3 deployed in the village of Dubravka, the village of Bani, and Besbuja

4 [phoen], Radovcici, Grude? Do you know about that?

5 A. This is the first time I hear of the village of Besbuja. I know

6 about the other villages, where they are, but I personally do not know

7 about this fact that you refer to.

8 Q. Do you know where Resnica is?

9 A. I can't remember now exactly. I do not know exactly where it is.

10 But it sounds familiar.

11 Q. It's an elevation above Molunat.

12 A. Possibly.

13 Q. Do you know that there were two cannons there belonging to the

14 Croatian army, 85-millimetre calibre?

15 A. I did not see that. I am not aware of that.

16 Q. Please be so kind as to tell us whether you know where Zvekovica

17 is?

18 A. I do know.

19 Q. Do you know where Cavtat is?

20 A. I do.

21 Q. Do you go through Zvekovica as you travel to the town of

22 Dubrovnik?

23 A. I do.

24 Q. Was there a position of the Croatian army over there perhaps?

25 A. There were no weapons to mention, so you cannot really use the

Page 3667

1 word "positions." And there was no such thing as the Croatian army at

2 that time. The Croatian army was established after the recognition of the

3 state.

4 Q. All right.

5 Was a JNA tank destroyed in Konavle?

6 A. People were saying that an armoured vehicle had been hit in the

7 area of Zvekovica, a vehicle belonging to the enemy forces, but I only

8 heard about that. At that time I was in Dubrovnik.

9 Q. How was this tank damaged? By what? A hunting rifle?

10 A. I don't know. Probably something more specific than that.

11 Q. Mr. A, I put it to you that the defence forces, and you were part

12 of them, were deployed in all these villages I mentioned just now, that

13 you were under the direct command of the commander of the defence of the

14 town of Dubrovnik, Nojko Marinovic, and that you actively participated in

15 resisting the JNA units that were marching in that area?

16 A. My group, no. Perhaps other groups were under this command, but

17 I'm not aware of that.

18 Q. How big is this area, Mr. A, that you do not know anything, except

19 about your own group, which was moving around quite a bit in that area?

20 How many kilometres are there, so that you do not know what is going on in

21 the neighbouring village right next to you, in the village of Zvekovica,

22 too, which is a few kilometres away from your village, perhaps even less?

23 A. Zvekovica is about two kilometres away from Cilipi, sort of.

24 Something like that.

25 Q. How come you know nothing about this, Mr. A?

Page 3668

1 A. On the 1st of October, I was an eye witness of the airplanes that

2 were flying over the sea, and the airport was targeted at the time. I

3 don't know what time of aircraft this was, but it flew over my house and

4 the house was shaking. That's when the infrastructure at the airport was

5 bombed. On the 1st of October, I heard that Srdj was targeted by missile

6 attacks, and all these infrastructure facilities, like at Komolac and the

7 transmitter at Srdj, and that's what I heard. On that day, the 1st of

8 October, I was convinced myself of the fact that the gasoline station was

9 destroyed at the airport and fuel containers were thrown about, scattered

10 about the road, and the building was destroyed.

11 Q. All right. I understand that. But the point is that you did not

12 see any members of the national guards corps or the Croatian army. You

13 didn't see any such thing. Is that the conclusion, to cut this story

14 short?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 A. There were some people in camouflage uniforms, but these are

18 people who obtained these uniforms somewhere on their own. But more or

19 less these were people in civilian clothes.

20 Q. So what did these people in camouflage uniforms do?

21 A. Well, what the rest of us did. They were looking on.

22 Q. All right. "I remember that we took position in Radovcici, three

23 kilometres away from Cilipi."

24 What was it that you did then? You were looking on.

25 A. We heard -- we heard that they were advancing, that the enemy

Page 3669

1 forces were advancing along the road, the lower road, the one that runs

2 parallel to the highway that goes from the north where this pass is. And

3 these enemy forces were advancing from Prevlaka through these villages of

4 Mikolici [phoen], Radovcici, and we heard that they were advancing. We

5 came to Popovici, a village that is one kilometre west of Radovcici, and

6 then on foot, on foot, we walked along the seacoast and came to the

7 hillocks above Radovcici, and we saw for ourselves a column of different

8 vehicles, military vehicles and many soldiers.

9 Q. All right. So the 20 of you went to Radovcici to reconnoiter?

10 A. Yes, to see how many enemy forces were there, how many enemy

11 troops there were.

12 Q. Please be so kind as to tell us, in order to observe why did 20 of

13 you have to go? Wasn't it sufficient for one person to go and to inform

14 the others?

15 A. Yes, but psychologically a person feels safer if there's a bigger

16 group involved.

17 Q. So then in the presence of the heavily-armed JNA, you moved in

18 groups of 20 so that you would feel safer?

19 A. Yes, but not along the road, but along the woods.

20 Q. Then you go on to say the following: "We saw many members of the

21 JNA, some 150 to 200 metres from us. The enemy forces had already

22 captured a part of the village and we could see them looting the houses.

23 We could also see heavily-armed soldiers on the road with tanks, cannons,

24 and other weapons. One of us fired a single shot, a single bullet, from

25 the hunting riffle. And there was panic in the enemy force."

Page 3670

1 A. Yes, correct.

2 Q. Would you be so kind as to explain to this Trial Chamber how

3 heavily-armed soldiers in tanks, cannons, succumb to panic from one single

4 shot that was fired from a hunting rifle. Could you please explain that

5 to us, please?

6 A. We were 150 to 200 metres away on a hillock. And the soldiers, a

7 group of soldiers on a terrace in front of a house we saw, or I saw, that

8 they were rolling barrels of wine out.

9 Q. I'm asking you the following: How was it possible that the JNA,

10 heavily armed and equipped with tanks, cannons, and other weapons, how

11 were they in a panic when they heard one single shot fired from a hunting

12 rifle?

13 A. The people in the group would escape to the military vehicles.

14 They went back to the vehicles.

15 Q. What happened to you after this single bullet had been fired from

16 this one hunting rifle?

17 A. We scattered. We were divided into two groups, and then we

18 scattered and we went back and took the same route we took when we went

19 there.

20 Q. Now, tell me, if your assignment was to observe, why did you shoot

21 from a hunting rifle?

22 A. In order to see the reaction, to provoke reaction, on the part of

23 the enemy forces.

24 Q. Well, when you shot this one single bullet from that hunting

25 rifle, did they shoot at you from cannons, tanks, planes, ships", what did

Page 3671

1 they do?

2 A. No. They shot at us from light weapons.

3 Q. But one bullet was enough, was it, to create this panic?

4 A. I saw them rush back to their vehicles.

5 Q. Did you happen to fire something else except for this one bullet

6 from this one hunting riffle?

7 A. I'm not aware of that.

8 Q. You go on to say that: "Along with these regular soldiers, I saw

9 volunteers wearing civilian clothes, both Serbs and Montenegrins. I

10 recognised them from their dialect, the way they spoke."

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you tell us, please, how it was that from a distance of 200

13 metres you happened to recognise them as being Serbs or Montenegrins by

14 the way they were speaking?

15 A. They were speaking loudly, shouting to each other, and of course

16 each of the dialects in the territories of the former Yugoslavia have

17 their characteristic features.

18 Q. What kind?

19 A. "Jovo," "Bre," "more [phoen]," those are characteristic terms used

20 by the Serb people.

21 Q. How were you able to distinguish between Serbs and Montenegrins

22 from that vantage point of yours from which you were observing them? How

23 were you able to distinguish who were Serbs and who were Montenegrins?

24 A. By their speech.

25 Q. And who was in the majority?

Page 3672

1 A. There were far more soldiers in uniform. A very small number were

2 the ones who were in some indistinguishable clothes.

3 Q. Now, from there did you take up a reserve position at Popovici?

4 A. Yes. It was dark already, night-time, and we didn't have any

5 means of communication. We've separated, as I already said, into two

6 groups. And my group, which was made up of about ten men, took the south

7 side of the village. It passed through the village and we entered a

8 vineyard, where we sat down and took stock to see -- we saw the church up

9 at -- on the hill of Popovici village. There was a church on fire, and we

10 realised that enemy forces were round about.

11 Q. Did you happen to use your rifle there perhaps again?

12 A. No. We didn't have any need of using it anymore, nor did we use

13 anything else. It was night-time already.

14 Q. Now, how did you know that the were soldiers from the Sava

15 Kovacevic brigade?

16 A. I heard about that later on.

17 Q. Who did you hear it from?

18 A. From people, the people I communicated with. We exchanged views,

19 information, that kind of thing.

20 Q. Tell me, please, where did you go on after that that night?

21 A. At about 2.00 o'clock we were sitting about in the vineyard,

22 because we didn't dare get out on to the main road. We didn't have any

23 orientation as to who was where. Our two groups might have killed each

24 other in the darkness, not knowing who we were encountering. And as it

25 was already cold at night and we were freezing, we had no choice, no way

Page 3673

1 out, but to take the forest running parallel to the road and to move in

2 the direction of Cilipi that way.

3 Q. What did you do next?

4 A. We passed through the forest and reached what we thought was a

5 safe part of the road. Part of my group went to Cilipi, and I myself went

6 to Cavtat because my sister was down there, and she was deployed by the

7 Territorial Defence down there. She was in the Crisis Staff -- by the

8 Crisis Staff in Dubrovnik. She was sent to help out the refugees in the

9 hotels in Cavtat.

10 Q. Now explain this to me, please: Your sister was sent by the

11 Territorial Defence and Crisis Staff of the city of Dubrovnik, she was

12 given an assignment and sent to Cavtat to perform that assignment, whereas

13 you, yourself, alone, not organised, not having contacts with anybody,

14 were observing?

15 A. She was working in the Dubrovnik pharmacies that belonged to the

16 city of Dubrovnik. And they had authority over their workers, employees.

17 Q. The Crisis Staff had no authority over you and your group then.

18 Is that what you're saying?

19 A. No.

20 Q. That means you could have left your unit whenever you wanted to?

21 A. Yes, at all times.

22 Q. Tell me, please, who stayed on to do this observation work?

23 A. I don't know anymore who stayed on. Probably some other groups

24 from other villages.

25 Q. And do you know from what positions those other groups were able

Page 3674

1 to do this observation work?

2 A. No, I don't.

3 Q. So you yourself left your group, and if they stayed on at Cilipi

4 at the front line, I can just conclude that you fled from Cavtat. Is that

5 right?

6 A. Well, I allow for that possibility.

7 Q. Were there any armed persons in Cavtat?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Anywhere along the road from Cilipi through Radovcici to Cavtat,

10 did you happen to see any armed Croatian defenders?

11 A. I went in my car, which was parked by my house. And I happened to

12 pass some cars along the road. But it was night-time, as I say.

13 Q. Who was in these other vehicles?

14 A. Well, they were civilian vehicles. There were some people inside;

15 the cars were moving. So that means somebody was driving them.

16 Q. My question to you was: Did you see any Croatian defenders?

17 A. No.

18 Q. On the 6th of October, you returned to Cilipi?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. And then once again you heard enemy soldiers speaking the Serbian

21 and Montenegrin dialects, but once again you say you didn't hear what they

22 were actually saying. Is that right

23 A. Yes. They were inarticulated voices, but I did hear names

24 characteristic of Serbs. And as soon as I arrived in Mocici, a village

25 which is on the west --

Page 3675

1 Q. All right. Very well. Tell me this, please: How were you able,

2 and which route did you take to reach your parents' house?

3 A. Through the Dubrovacka Zupa, along the main road.

4 Q. Could you explain to the Trial Chamber, please -- because you and

5 I are well aware of where that lies, but tell the Trial Chamber, please,

6 from the 6th of October, from Cilipi, how many kilometres did you pass to

7 reach your parents'?

8 A. I left at about 10.00 from the Albatros, from where my sister was,

9 the hotel. And my aim was to find my group -- to meet up with my group in

10 Cilipi, because they were sleeping in the cultural building over there.

11 Then --

12 Q. Just a moment, please. You say they were sleeping in the cultural

13 centre because they were actually people from Cilipi?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Why didn't they sleep in their own homes and disperse and

16 scatter?

17 A. They were afraid. That's what they decided to do.

18 Q. All right. Now please continue.

19 A. When I reached Mocici, and you can see the church at Cilipi from

20 Mocici --

21 Q. Just a moment, please. I asked you how many kilometres you did,

22 what length of road did you traverse?

23 A. From Cavtat to Mocici, my house in Cilipi is about three

24 kilometres. Afterwards from my house to Dubrovnik to Babin Kuk, the

25 Argosy Hotel in actual fact --

Page 3676

1 Q. How many kilometres is that and where did you pass through?

2 A. It's about 30 kilometres altogether, all the places I mentioned.

3 Q. How far is hotel Argosy in Babin Kuk from Cavtat to the point you

4 set out from?

5 A. About 25 kilometres from own house.

6 Q. Throughout those 25 kilometres, going through Cavtat, the whole of

7 the Dubrovacka Zupa area and the town of Dubrovnik, right up until

8 Babin Kuk which lies to the west of the town of Dubrovnik, did you see any

9 armed Croatian defenders on your route?

10 A. I saw people with sparse weapons, hunting rifles. I did happen

11 across quite a number of people.

12 Q. So where did you meet these people out with hunting rifles? Where

13 did you come across them?

14 A. Mlini, Kupari, then around the hotel at Babin Kuk.

15 Q. Were there any checkpoints on this 25 kilometre-long route of

16 yours from Cavtat through Zupa through town to Babin Kuk?

17 A. In front of the hotel at Babin Kuk, no, there were no checkpoints.

18 Just people on their own who initiative -- in Mlini, for example, a man

19 stopped me to ask me where I was going. And he said, "You shouldn't go

20 there, stay here with us." And I said I was going to my parents' place

21 but hat I would return.

22 Q. Did he perhaps try to prevent you going ahead?

23 A. No, he didn't try to prevent me.

24 Q. Were you able to get out of the town of Dubrovnik and the

25 Dubrovnik area, had you wanted to -- to leave that area?

Page 3677

1 A. No. Because at that time, Dubrovnik was under siege already, in

2 an encirclement.

3 Q. Could you have got on one of the ferries and leave the town that

4 way?

5 A. The police wouldn't allow us to do that. They didn't allow

6 military-able men to leave the town.

7 Q. Would you be so kind as to tell us in view of the fact that there

8 was no organised defence in the town of Dubrovnik itself, why then did the

9 police prevent military-able men from leaving the down of Dubrovnik? What

10 was the purpose of it?

11 A. Probably because they were military conscripts.

12 Q. But if there were no organised units, if there was no weaponry, if

13 there were just a few hunting rifles, why would the police stop people

14 from getting on to a ferry and leaving town and going to Split, Rijeka,

15 wherever?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Let's go back to the 6th of October -- December, 1991, now please.

18 Who attended the meeting of your colleagues, as you say, the defenders in

19 Zvekovica?

20 A. You want to know who was there? You want me to give their names?

21 Q. As far as you're able to.

22 A. Well, I don't really know. The group that I mentioned, of these

23 ten or so men.

24 Q. Could you tell us please what the names of these people that made

25 up the group was?

Page 3678

1 A. They were all my neighbours from Cilipi.

2 Q. Please give us their names.

3 A. I draw the knot [as interpreted], if I don't actually have to.

4 Q. Well, it's very important for us to hear the names in order to

5 establish who the members of your group were and what the group's

6 activities were.

7 A. I've said that countless times what the activities of our group

8 were.

9 Q. And I'm asking you to tell us please who the members of your group

10 were and who was in command of your group.

11 A. Nobody was in command; I've already said that. I said that we

12 agreed together as to what we were to do. We made our own decisions and

13 our own conclusions.

14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I have your

15 assistance in this matter. Could you please ask the distinguished witness

16 to give us the names of his group, the members of his group, the ones he

17 worked with in the Cilipi area during the material time.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Are you able to recall those names?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know all the last names in Cilipi,

20 and these people bore those last names, Resetar, Pujo, Brajica, Obradovic,

21 Simovic, Bete, and others. All of these are last names from Cilipi and

22 from the area around Cilipi.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Did any one of those have any command, control, or

24 authority over you in what you did as a group?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no chain of command

Page 3679

1 whatsoever. We reached agreement together and we reached decisions

2 together.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Is that sufficient for your purposes, Mr. Petrovic?

4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I would just

5 like to ask to have this clarified.

6 Q. The people you mentioned consisted of your -- your group consisted

7 of those people. Is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. And these people were at this meeting on the 6th of October, 1991?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. What did you decide there at that meeting?

13 A. We decided to stay at Zvekovica. To stay there at Zvekovica to

14 see what would happen afterwards. And we spent that night at Zvekovica.

15 The next morning -- is that all right?

16 Q. What was it that you did that night at Zvekovica? What was it

17 that you continued doing at Zvekovica that night?

18 A. We were there to see whether the enemy army would reach Zvekovica,

19 at which pace the enemy army was advancing from Radovcici and from the

20 east.

21 Q. Were you armed?

22 A. Again, with these weapons that I've already mentioned.

23 Q. Tell me, did you go from Cavtat to Babin Kuk about 50 kilometres

24 on the previous day with that hunting rifle of yours?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3680

1 Q. Did anybody ask you where it was that you were going armed like

2 that?

3 A. Yes. And I said that I went to -- that I was going to visit my

4 family and get some water for them because there was a shortage of water

5 at the time.

6 Q. So you traversed these 25 kilometres in order to bring your

7 parents water?

8 A. That's right. And to tell them that I was alive.

9 Q. And there was no water anywhere closer to your parents' house?

10 A. No. There was a shortage of water at the time.

11 Q. And then you say on the morning of the 7th of October: "We

12 discussed the situation yet again and we realised that it was pointless to

13 continue the resistance, as we were no match to the powerful and

14 well-equipped JNA. So we discontinued the resistance against the enemy

15 forces and split up."

16 Let me try to interpret this properly. You gave up on continuing

17 your observation, and then you split up?

18 A. Exactly.

19 Q. Tell me, then, why then did the investigator of the Office of the

20 Prosecutor of the International Tribunal write down here then that it was

21 your understanding that it was useless to continue the resistance? How

22 could this kind of a mistake happen in the translation, Mr. A?

23 A. I don't know. I can't explain that to you. Ask the translators.

24 Q. What does this second sentence mean? "So we discontinued the

25 resistance against the enemy forces and split up."?

Page 3681

1 A. It means that we split up, that we parted our ways, everybody went

2 his own way.

3 Q. But what does this mean, to discontinue resistance, sir?

4 A. It means that we realised that we could not put up any kind of

5 resistance whatsoever. It was a cat-and-mouse game. We were totally

6 unequal. We were nothing compared to the forces there.

7 Q. Let us summarise this, Mr. A. Your resistance from the 1st of

8 October until the 7th of October ended on the 7th of October. And during

9 those seven days, your group fired one single bullet, and from a hunting

10 rifle at that, on the 5th of October, 1991?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time do you think,

14 Mr. Petrovic?

15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

16 --- Recess taken at 12.21 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 12.48 p.m.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. A, in your statement you say the following: "Some defenders

21 in Zupa Dubrovacka nevertheless continued to fight against the JNA. One

22 of them was my relative, Ivan Rados."

23 Did these people continue to fight while you left your position?

24 A. Mistranslation.

25 Q. What's the mistake? What is wrong in this sentence, Mr. A?

Page 3682

1 A. Their group was organised just like my group.

2 Q. So yet again, you were totally misunderstood, both by the

3 interpreter and by the investigator?

4 A. Obviously.

5 Q. What were these people doing in Zupa Dubrovacka?

6 A. Also observing the surrounding hills. Observing.

7 Q. Were they armed or were they also armed with hunting rifles?

8 A. Just like we were, poorly.

9 Q. Was there anyone who in the territory of the municipality of

10 Dubrovnik and the town of Dubrovnik in the months of October, November,

11 and December 1991 who was working actively in the field of defence against

12 the JNA?

13 A. I personally do not know about this, but I heard various stories.

14 These stories were also a very psychological nature, in view of the

15 persons who were actually telling the stories.

16 Q. In the territory of the municipality of Dubrovnik and in the town

17 of Dubrovnik, was there anyone who was organised in ZNG units, Croatian

18 units, special units of the Croatian army, in the period of October,

19 November, December, 1991?

20 A. Maybe, but I am not aware of any such thing.

21 Q. Did you hear about any of this, Mr. A?

22 A. Only rumours, all sorts of rumours.

23 Q. Tell me, Mr. A, what was it that you heard about organised forces

24 of the ZNG, the Croatian army, the special police, and the regular police

25 in the town of Dubrovnik and in the territory of the municipality of

Page 3683

1 Dubrovnik, in view of these three months?

2 A. I've already told you I heard different stories. I myself cannot

3 say that they were authentic.

4 Q. I'm asking you what it was that you heard. I'm not asking you

5 about authenticity. I asked you what it was that you heard, Mr. A.

6 A. I heard that we had some forces, that they couldn't do anything to

7 us, that the world cares about Dubrovnik and doesn't want Dubrovnik to be

8 occupied, that the 6th fleet was in the Adriatic, that they would not

9 allow missile attacks on the entire area of Dubrovnik, let alone the Old

10 Town, and stories to that effect.

11 Q. I asked you what it was that you heard about the defence forces.

12 A. And I've given you an answer. I don't know anything more specific

13 than that.

14 Q. So these people who were in Zupa Dubrovacka and who fell victim

15 there were also observing. How were they armed; do you know that?

16 A. I don't. I don't know.

17 Q. You said two minutes ago that these people in Zupa Dubrovacka were

18 organised just like you. However, in your statement you say for Ivan

19 Rados, your relative, he had been mobilised, and was assigned to the

20 Dubrovacka Zupa area, he was stationed in the area of Mlini, and the

21 commander of his group was a police officer, Ante Vulic?

22 A. He was not mobilised; he volunteered. He joined that group

23 voluntarily. And they functioned the way we did. Ante Vulic, the

24 mentioned Ante Vulic, was a policeman in the former state as well.

25 Q. Mr. A, you say here: "The commander of his group was Ante Vulic."

Page 3684

1 What does that mean?

2 A. That means that he probably knew somewhat more about the military,

3 about warfare, about organisation, in view of the fact that he was a

4 policeman. That's what I meant.

5 Q. Was this also a mistranslation, Mr. A?

6 A. Obviously.

7 Q. So instead of this word "commander of his group," what were they

8 supposed to say for this Mr. Vulic?

9 A. That was my assumption; it was logical. My assumption, he was the

10 most competent with the best professional training in terms of defence and

11 organisation in general, since he was a policeman. So this was, in a way,

12 part of his own line of work.

13 Q. In the same paragraph you again refer to Ante Vulic as the

14 commander. You say: "Ante Vulic, his commander, was also injured one of

15 those days but in a different attack."

16 Was that a mistranslation as well?

17 A. Well, it was obviously the same translator/interpreter.

18 Q. Mr. A, do you know English?

19 A. I can use the English language. I have some knowledge.

20 Q. Sir, on the front page of your statement of the 14th and 18th of

21 September, 2000, it says: "Languages spoken: Croatian and English."

22 It says here that you speak Croatian and English.

23 A. I can use both languages, yes.

24 Q. Mr. A, did you intervene in this multitude of cases of

25 mistranslation, because you understand both English and Croatian?

Page 3685

1 A. I understand Serbian, too. I had no time to intervene. I told

2 you that this was translated verbally to me, that I did give my own

3 comments, again verbally, and that it was the first time that I read this

4 in the Croatian language in January this year.

5 Q. In these many cases of mistranslation, why did you not react on

6 the spot? Didn't you realise that you were being mistranslated?

7 A. At that moment, I didn't think it was that important.

8 Q. Why do you think it's that important today, sir?

9 A. Afterwards when I read this, I analysed it and I took a position

10 of my own with regard to this matter. Obviously it differed from that I

11 took in the year 2000. A person learns throughout his life, doesn't he?

12 Q. Please be so kind as to tell us where the Benedictine cloister is.

13 Could you please describe the locality to us.

14 A. East of the Old Town. As the crow flies, it's two kilometres

15 away, near the Belvedere Hotel.

16 Q. In October, November, December 1991, what was in the Belvedere

17 Hotel?

18 A. I did not visit the Belvedere a single time within that period.

19 Q. And the cloister, the monastery, where you worked, how far away is

20 it from the Belvedere Hotel?

21 A. About 200 metres.

22 Q. You never found out what was 200 metres away from the place where

23 you lived and worked?

24 A. With the late Pavo Urban, I came only once. I don't remember the

25 exact date. It was probably the beginning of November. I came to -- in

Page 3686

1 front of the main entrance of the Belvedere Hotel, that's all.

2 Q. What were you and Pavo Urban looking for there?

3 A. We were recording with my camera and with his camera the damage

4 that was caused by the projectiles.

5 Q. Please be so kind as to explain to us what you told us a while

6 ago; namely, that in mid-September you left your place of work because

7 such instructions were received from Zagreb from the Croatian Academy of

8 Sciences and Arts. Is that correct?

9 A. No. These were not instructions. This was a recommendation.

10 They said that if working conditions were impossible, do not work until

11 further notice -- or rather, until proper conditions are created.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Petrovic, please.

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. On the 7th of October, why did you go back to your work place?

15 A. In order to seek shelter, in order to have a place to go, a place

16 to sleep.

17 Q. You say: "On the 7th of October, 1991, I returned to Dubrovnik at

18 my work place in the Benedictine monastery and stayed there."

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. Did you work, Mr. A?

21 A. No, I was there on my own, all alone, but there were some 20 or so

22 people there too, whose assessment was that this was a much firmer

23 building than their houses in Zlati Potok.

24 Q. Where were the Croatian positions of the Croatian army around the

25 town of Dubrovnik in October, November, December, 1991?

Page 3687

1 A. I don't know, because I did not walk around.

2 Q. Mr. A, were you, for instance, able to go to Kupari or Mlini?

3 A. On the 7th, no, you couldn't pass by on the 7th. You couldn't go

4 further from Mlini because that is the narrow stretch of border belt, the

5 Croatian border belt. And from the hills above, people were there with

6 snipers and other weapons, and they were targeting anybody who wanted to

7 pass by that way and attempted to do so and get through to Cavtat.

8 Q. Did you know where the last defence line was of the Croatian army

9 on that eastern access towards Cavtat?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Would you be surprised if I tell you that it was just 200 metres

12 from the place you lived and worked?

13 A. Are you talking about Dubrovnik or Cavtat?

14 Q. Mr. A, I'm talking about Dubrovnik.

15 A. Well, that's a different story altogether. Behind the Belvedere,

16 to the east of the Belvedere.

17 Q. That's what I asked you a moment ago, and I asked you quite

18 clearly.

19 A. That's what I heard, and I can tell you that I wasn't there.

20 Q. So what did you hear? What was there at the Belvedere Hotel, let

21 me ask you again?

22 A. I didn't hear anything about what was to be found in the Belvedere

23 Hotel, but that people were patrolling the area behind the Belvedere

24 Hotel. But I didn't see that take place personally.

25 Q. Who were these people patrolling the region behind the Belvedere

Page 3688

1 Hotel?

2 A. Probably the people from town.

3 Q. Do you know whether they belonged to any military unit, police

4 unit? Were they armed?

5 A. Well, I saw hunting rifles and things like that, simple types of

6 weapons, nothing specific. And they were wearing civilian uniforms. Some

7 I saw were in camouflage uniform, but others wore a combined form of

8 civilian and camouflage.

9 Q. These people by the Belvedere were doing the same thing that you

10 were doing in Cilipi, observing?

11 A. I don't know what their function was.

12 Q. Do you know what happened up at Mount Srdj, Mr. A?

13 A. When?

14 Q. October, November, December 1991.

15 A. From my monastery with the camera I had that I've already

16 mentioned, I recorded quite a number of explosions, attacks from the sea,

17 from the land.

18 Q. Mr. A, who attacked whom?

19 A. I just observed explosions and clouds of smoke, which were

20 probably the result of the attack. But I don't know who attacked whom.

21 Q. Do you know who was up at Srdj, Mr. A, let me ask you again,

22 during those three months. Just a brief answer, please.

23 A. No, I don't know. I personally do not know.

24 Q. Do you know who during those three months was up at Zarkovica,

25 Mr. A?

Page 3689

1 A. I think the enemy army had taken control of Zarkovica sometime in

2 mid-October.

3 Q. How did you learn of that, Mr. A?

4 A. Because they were targeting the island of Lokrum with their

5 projectiles from that point.

6 Q. Mr. A, how far is Zarkovica from the monastery itself?

7 A. As the crow flies, approximately 400 metres.

8 Q. So you knew that at a distance of 400 metres were the positions of

9 the enemy army; however, you did not know that at 200 metres there was the

10 last line of the Croatian defence.

11 A. No projectiles were coming from that range of 200 metres, so I

12 couldn't know.

13 Q. Mr. A, now these observers at the Belvedere Hotel on the Croatian

14 side, did they ever shoot at anybody?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Did you ever happen to hear any shots from those hunting rifles or

17 whatever else they had?

18 A. I heard shots, but I wasn't an eye witness to be able to tell you

19 who did the shooting.

20 Q. Well, did they perhaps shoot from the Croatian side?

21 A. I don't know, maybe.

22 Q. Did you ever, in the town of Dubrovnik, during these three months,

23 see anything other than hunting rifles by way of weapons?

24 A. At that time, no. Later on in 1992, yes. In the Old Town, never.

25 Q. Did the Croatian army perhaps during those three months in the

Page 3690

1 town of Dubrovnik have any mortars, for example, cannons?

2 A. I personally didn't see them.

3 Q. Did you hear anything about such things perhaps?

4 A. Well, stories did go around about that in 1992, different rumours,

5 but I didn't see that personally.

6 Q. Tell me, please, why didn't the JNA enter the Belvedere Hotel or

7 your monastery or the town of Dubrovnik?

8 A. You would have to ask the JNA that.

9 Q. Was there anybody between the town of Dubrovnik and the positions

10 held by the JNA in the hills around the town?

11 A. I'm not aware of it. Perhaps.

12 Q. Well, were you afraid, Mr. A?

13 A. Very much so.

14 Q. Now, what specialty did you have from your JNA training days?

15 A. Anti-aircraft attack, light 92M systems.

16 Q. Are you well-versed in the matter of weapons, Mr. A?

17 A. I understand those weapons very well, pieces.

18 Q. Do you distinguish between a three-barrel anti-aircraft gun? Do

19 you know what that looks like? Can you distinguish that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Well, what does it look like? Can you describe it to us.

22 A. Well, there are three barrels. The centre one is a little longer,

23 but I assume the calibre is the same, 20 millimetres. That's as far as my

24 knowledge goes. Of course I'm not a military expert.

25 Q. Did you happen to see a piece of artillery weapon of that kind in

Page 3691

1 the town of Dubrovnik in October, November or December 1991?

2 A. No, not me. I didn't.

3 Q. Did anyone else see that, Mr. A?

4 A. Perhaps. I don't know. I can't say.

5 Q. Did anybody ever shoot from the town of Dubrovnik, targeting JNA

6 positions around the town of Dubrovnik?

7 A. Once again, after the establishment of the regular 163rd Brigade

8 of the Croatian army in Dubrovnik, we exchanged opinions, compared notes.

9 I did hear that somebody did shoot, but I just heard about that. I didn't

10 see it personally.

11 Q. Could you tell me, please, what you heard, what it was that you

12 heard.

13 A. Well, people said that there was a truck upon which this cannon --

14 anti-aircraft cannon was installed in order to create the impression of

15 having some sort of stronger force, stronger defence force. And the truck

16 moved from the eastern -- from the western to the eastern part of town.

17 It would shoot a burst of gunfire several times to create this general

18 impression, to create the noise and general audio impression of having a

19 defence force by the people -- the forces around the hills who were able

20 to hear that. That's what I heard.

21 Q. But you never saw the likes of anything like that or heard it?

22 A. I saw that cannon in 1992, in February, for the first time.

23 Q. Did you ever go outside the monastery you were in, venture out?

24 A. Outside? Only when there were no operations underway, when there

25 was no shelling and shells falling around the monastery.

Page 3692

1 Q. Tell me, please, from the 7th of October until the 11th of

2 November when you moved into the Old Town, was there shooting at the town

3 of Dubrovnik and its surrounding parts every day? Did they take place on

4 a daily basis?

5 A. Every day, but the intensity differed. There would be sporadic

6 shooting, as one says.

7 Q. Tell me, please, was the general alarm sounded every day?

8 A. A general alarm would be sounded immediately after the first

9 projectiles fell. And a siren would be sounded.

10 Q. What I asked you was: Was there a general alarm sounded every

11 day?

12 A. No.

13 Q. On how many days between the 7th of October and the 11th of

14 November was a general alarm sounded, denoting all out danger, as far as

15 you know?

16 A. I don't know the number of times, but many times certainly. I

17 can't give you an exact figure.

18 Q. I assume there were more days when the general alarm was sounded

19 than the number of days when it wasn't sounded?

20 A. Well, I would say in a ratio of 70 to 30 per cent. 70 per cent of

21 the time the general alarm was sounded, and 30 per cent of the time it

22 wasn't.

23 Q. As you said a moment ago that the general alarm would be sounded

24 once the first projectiles had hit, that further means that 28 days during

25 this period of time, or perhaps 25 days during that period of time, shells

Page 3693

1 fell on the Old Town and the town of Dubrovnik. Would that be right?

2 A. Well, generally speaking your conclusions are right.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 Did you give any thought to joining up the defenders, or rather,

5 the observers who were stationed at the Belvedere Hotel and who were there

6 observing the JNA units?

7 A. Yes. I would have joined them, but there weren't the conditions

8 for me to do so. What could I join them with? With my own bare hands?

9 I would have readily have joined them otherwise.

10 Q. Well, where was your rifle, Mr. A?

11 A. With me, at the institute.

12 Q. Well, they too, sir, just had hunting rifles. Why didn't you join

13 them then with your hunting rifle?

14 A. I was in the institute. There was no sense in it. It would carry

15 not weight, going there with a hunting rifle.

16 Q. All right. Some people stayed there to do their observing with

17 their rifles, but you didn't join them. Why?

18 A. My own personal choice. I don't know. We're all different, as

19 you well know, and we react differently.

20 Q. Why then did you join up in the first -- in January 1992? Why did

21 you join the defenders then?

22 A. My house was over there, and that was sufficient reason.

23 Q. But, sir, your house was there in October and in November and in

24 December as well. And you didn't join up, although you were armed, you

25 had a rifle.

Page 3694

1 A. Sir, I don't follow your line of questioning.

2 Q. My question is this: I asked you why you joined the defenders in

3 1992, and your answer was because your house was there.

4 A. 1992?

5 Q. And then I went on to ask you: Why didn't you join the defenders

6 in October, November, and December of 1991, because your house was still

7 there at that time, and you were armed, you had a rifle at that time?

8 A. You're right. In 1992, at the end of January, I was mobilised

9 after the Croatian state had gained international recognition.

10 Q. And you've told us for the third time now that you were mobilised

11 after international recognition. What does that have to do with

12 mobilisation at all in your participation and the defence of your house?

13 What did those two things have in common?

14 A. What did they have in common? Draw your own conclusions. That's

15 no problem.

16 Q. But I'm asking you, Mr. A. Does that mean that you decided to

17 join the army only when the state had been internationally recognised? Up

18 until that time, you didn't consider it to be your duty or that you needed

19 to? Am I right?

20 A. Yes, you are. You are quite right.

21 Q. Well, what did you think up until that time, up until 1992? Who

22 should have defended your home, your house?

23 A. I should have done, but I didn't have anything to defend it with.

24 Q. All right. What was it that you saw at Zarkovica?

25 A. There was no direct view of Zarkovica from the monastery. From

Page 3695

1 the Old Town, there is. At Zarkovica, there was a fortification dating

2 back to the times of Napoleon. I'm talking to 18 --

3 Q. Never mind.

4 A. 1806.

5 Q. All right. Was there a fort like that on Srdj?

6 A. Yes. There was a fort on Srdj, too, called imperijal.

7 Q. Can Srdj be seen from the Old Town?

8 A. Very well.

9 Q. So when you saw Zarkovica from the Old Town, did you see Srdj,

10 too?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And at Zarkovica you saw the JNA, and who was it that you saw at

13 Srdj?

14 A. I didn't see the JNA. I didn't. With the naked eye, you cannot

15 see anything at such a distance. I saw the fortification that was

16 probably used.

17 Q. So Zarkovica is 400 metres from the place where you lived?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Tell me, did you hear anything from Zarkovica while you were

20 there?

21 A. At what time?

22 Q. While you were at the monastery?

23 A. Yes, shooting.

24 Q. Tell me, please: Who were they shooting at, these people from

25 Zarkovica?

Page 3696

1 A. I already told you, the island of Lokrum and -- I mean, that's

2 what I saw. In view of the reflections of the projectiles. In other

3 places, I didn't notice that, whether the shooting actually came from

4 Zarkovica.

5 Q. Tell me, please: Tell me exactly what does your apartment look

6 like, the one in the building at Izmedju Polaca number 10? Where is the

7 entrance? From which street does one enter your apartment at Izmedju

8 Polaca number 10?

9 A. There are different ways of entering it, from the left-hand side

10 and from the right-hand side of the building. Also, it is possible to

11 enter from the street of Izmedju Polaca, which is parallel to Stradun.

12 Q. Tell me, please, so you won't have to tell us this kind of thing

13 from left and from right. From the street called Izmedju Polaca, can your

14 apartment be entered?

15 A. That's the only street that it can be entered from.

16 Q. Tell me, which streets are perpendicular to Stradun, to the left

17 and the right of the building where you lived?

18 A. Uska is the street on the right-hand side. And the other one -- I

19 don't really pay attention to streets. I don't know. I know about

20 different places but not the names of streets. Then also Miha Pracata is

21 the street to the west, yes.

22 Q. I'm asking you specifically to tell me which streets are on the

23 north of Stradun and on the west?

24 A. Uska.

25 Q. On the east?

Page 3697

1 A. I can't remember now.

2 Q. On the south, which street?

3 A. Izmedju Polaca.

4 Q. The entrance into the building is from the southern side?

5 A. Izmedju Polaca, the residential part of the building.

6 Q. On the first floor was where the then-Ms. Ruzica lived?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Please be so kind as to tell us how one reaches her apartment.

9 Entering from Izmedju Polaca, how does one reach her apartment?

10 A. One opens the door and one goes upstairs. The stairs take a turn

11 and then one comes to the first floor.

12 Q. How many rooms are there in Ms. Ruzica's apartment?

13 A. Three, including the bathroom.

14 Q. So there are two rooms and the bathroom?

15 A. Yes. One is on the north side, the other one is on the south

16 side, and between them is the bathroom where we hid.

17 Q. How big is this apartment?

18 A. About 44 square metres.

19 Q. That is the first floor?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. On the second floor is the apartment where you were?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. How many rooms are there in that apartment?

24 A. The same number of rooms, except that the ceiling is twice as high

25 in comparison to the first floor.

Page 3698

1 Q. How big is your apartment?

2 A. Identical, since it is right above.

3 Q. What about the actual layout of the rooms in your apartment?

4 A. Similar to the layout on the first floor.

5 Q. Where is the bathroom in your apartment?

6 A. Same place, like on the first floor.

7 Q. What about the third floor?

8 A. The third floor is somewhat different. There is a hall. To the

9 north, there are two rooms and they are different in size, a bit

10 different. And then from the hall, one goes to the attic. On the south

11 side, facing Izmedju Polaca, is another room. And from that room, there

12 is a hall, and that's where the entrance to the bathroom is.

13 Q. How many windows of your wife's apartment face the street called

14 Izmedju Polaca?

15 A. Two. Oh, you mean the street Izmedju Polaca? One from the hall

16 and the other one from the east room. Yes, two.

17 Q. How many windows are there facing Uska Street?

18 A. One window from the staircase.

19 Q. What else is on the floor where your wife's apartment was?

20 A. I do not understand the question.

21 Q. Is there anything else on the first floor of the building at

22 Izmedju Polaca number 10?

23 A. I don't know what kind of answer you are expecting. Could you

24 lead me to an answer?

25 Q. On the first floor is your wife's apartment, 40 square metres?

Page 3699

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is there anything else on the first floor of the building at

3 Izmedju Polaca number 10?

4 A. There are two windows facing Stradun. They are identical, the two

5 windows. And I've already referred to those facing south.

6 Q. There are two windows facing Stradun, two facing Izmedju Polaca?

7 A. That's right, and one facing Uska.

8 Q. The situation is the same on the second floor, right, where your

9 apartment is?

10 A. Yes, except that the windows are twice as big, since the ceiling

11 is twice as high on that floor.

12 Q. Therefore the surface area of the building that we're talking

13 about is 40 square metres, in view of the fact that there is nothing on

14 the floors except apartments that are 40 square metres in size. Am I

15 right?

16 A. Each level has 40 square metres.

17 Q. Now tell me, please, your wife's room looking out on to the

18 Izmedju Polaca street, how wide is that room?

19 A. That room is narrower by a staircase, compared to the one looking

20 out on to the Stradun, half the size, in fact, half the surface area.

21 Q. How many square metres would that be? How many metres wide would

22 the room be looking out on to Izmedju Polaca?

23 A. Two metres, roughly.

24 Q. How wide is the room facing out on to the Stradun? Would that

25 make it four?

Page 3700

1 A. Well, four or five, yes.

2 Q. What's the surface area of the part of the building inhabited by

3 Mrs. Aleksic?

4 A. They are two identical halves.

5 Q. So apartments roughly 40 square metres there, too, one above the

6 other?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. That means, Mr. A, that the block of buildings between Stradun,

9 Uska Street, the street you don't know -- I'm telling you it's called

10 Kaboge, Marojice Kaboge.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And the street Izmedju Polaca that you have marked on the map has

13 a total surface area of 80 square metres. Am I right?

14 A. Yes, roughly. Of course I never measured it. But I would say

15 that was roughly it.

16 Q. Well, I assume you know the surface area of the flat you live in.

17 That's a basic fact?

18 A. Well, I'm not the owner of the apartment, I'm just a tenant, so I

19 never actually measured it.

20 Q. Do you live in that flat today, sir?

21 A. Well, yes, but I'm on the third floor now. I live on the third

22 floor today.

23 Q. And you still don't know to the present day the surface area of

24 the apartment you live in?

25 A. Well, it's not important. I'm not going to sell the flat to make

Page 3701

1 it important what the exact surface area is.

2 Q. Do you pay rent at all or anything else?

3 A. Only electricity, water, et cetera, not rent at such.

4 Q. And you don't know the surface area, the size of the apartment

5 you're paying the utilities for?

6 A. As I said, I'm not paying rent, so that wasn't an important point.

7 I just pay the utilities, the amount of water and electricity and the rest

8 that I use.

9 Q. And who does the building belong to?

10 A. It belongs to a professor. His name is Ivo Brangjolica and his

11 sisters, Vjera and Mira, and two cousins, one of them lives in Belgrade

12 and the other lives in Vrbas.

13 Q. All right. So you lived there free of charge, free of rent, so to

14 speak?

15 A. Yes, that's right. We have family ties, so I took care of the

16 building for the owner, and this is the way he repays me for that, for

17 taking care of the building.

18 Q. All right, fine. Let's just recapitulate, you didn't tell me how

19 many windows look out on to Uska Street, on the second floor?

20 A. One, but it's double the size of the one on the first floor.

21 Q. Did the bathroom have any windows, the one you were in?

22 A. No, none of the bathrooms have windows. They are lodged between

23 the walls of the two identical parts of the buildings, the one belonging

24 to Mrs. Aleksic and the other.

25 Q. When the events of the 6th of December started, did you go to the

Page 3702

1 bathroom straight away?

2 A. I didn't myself. It was around about 6.00 o'clock. I would go in

3 and leave it, but after 6.00 o'clock, as I have already said, until 7.00

4 o'clock, Ruzica and Mrs. Aleksic were there all the time.

5 Q. So where were you from 5.00 o'clock, when you woke up, where were

6 you after that time?

7 A. Well, I walked around going between those two rooms, the one

8 facing Stradun, the one facing the Od Puca street, and the bathroom.

9 Q. When did you go into the bathroom yourself?

10 A. At about 7.00 o'clock.

11 Q. Tell me, please, was Mrs. Aleksic and your wife, were they in the

12 bathroom already?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Why did you yourself go in at 7.00?

15 A. I was obviously less afraid than they were.

16 Q. And from that time on, once you had entered the bathroom, how long

17 did you stay inside?

18 A. Well, I remained there until about 9.00 o'clock. Or I would spend

19 20 minutes of every hour there, depending on the intensity of the

20 projectiles.

21 Q. You told us today that the projectiles fell every second.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What made you decide to leave then?

24 A. Well, judging by the explosion. If I thought they were falling

25 further away into another part of town, then I would leave the bathroom.

Page 3703

1 And as things got closer to my own building, I would go back into the

2 bathroom.

3 Q. So was there any regularity in the explosions?

4 A. I don't know. You would have to ask the JNA that.

5 Q. Well, how did you know when to leave the bathroom and when to go

6 into it?

7 A. By the sounds I would decide what to do, whether they were closer

8 or further, the projectiles.

9 Q. Once you left the bathroom, for instance, what did you see upon

10 leaving the bathroom?

11 A. Well, I'd take a peek out at the window -- I'd look through the

12 window, actually. I didn't do that many times by noon -- actually, I

13 would just look through the window and see the construction material

14 falling off the roofs, the stones, the tiles, the wood, pieces of wood,

15 the debris.

16 Q. Was your window open, Mr. A?

17 A. Yes. All the windows were open, because the explosions, any

18 explosion, would shatter the window panes. And then that glass would be

19 very dangerous to people falling down.

20 Q. So your window was wide open, was it?

21 A. Yes. All the peripheral windows were wide open.

22 Q. And you didn't have any shutters on the windows?

23 A. The shutters were wide open, too.

24 Q. Was that what people did in the Old Town, all of them?

25 A. I don't know what others did. I'm telling you what I did.

Page 3704

1 Q. Well, what about the people across the road in Uska Street or

2 between -- or Izmedju Polaca Street?

3 A. Their windows were open, too, but I didn't notice people. They

4 probably laid down -- were lying down in some spot or other.

5 Q. So generally speaking, you would leave the bathroom when you felt

6 that the intensity --

7 A. Around the building was smaller.

8 Q. Yes. Around the building smaller, right.

9 How many hits occurred around your building?

10 A. I didn't count them but a lot. In the whole of the Old Town.

11 Q. I'm asking you about your building and around it, how many hits?

12 Let me put it this way. From the Izmedju Polaca Street, for instance?

13 A. Izmedju Polaca you mean?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. I don't remember. They did occur, but I don't remember the

16 number.

17 Q. Well, how many? One? Two? 10? 20? 50? How many?

18 A. My answer was that I do not know.

19 Q. How many hits were there in Uska Street that your windows look out

20 on to?

21 A. There were some hits. I can't tell you how many. I really don't

22 know. I never counted them.

23 Q. One? Two? 10? 20? 50?

24 A. I'm already said.

25 Q. You don't know?

Page 3705

1 A. No.

2 Q. How many hits were there from the northern side of your house

3 facing Stradun?

4 A. Well, I remember that better, better how many hits there were in

5 Stradun. In the whole of Stradun, there were roughly about 50 hits

6 directly on to the pavement.

7 Q. How were you able to remember that better? How do you know what

8 happened on Stradun better, whereas you don't remember what happened in

9 the streets going into -- leading up to your house?

10 A. Because the Stradun is the walkway, the main street. And the

11 narrow streets just serve you -- you just take them to get somewhere. But

12 Stradun is the main strolling street.

13 Q. But you have to go through Stradun into Uska Street to go into

14 your own house, don't you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Well, how come you didn't see whether anything was damaged?

17 A. There was damage, yes, but I don't know how much, the extent of

18 the damage. There was damage everywhere.

19 Q. How many shells fell in front of your house on the Stradun side?

20 Not the whole of Stradun, just in front of your own house, the width of

21 your own house.

22 A. On the pavement in front of the house, of my house, I would say

23 about 10.

24 Q. And how many fell on your house, hit your house, the left side of

25 your house?

Page 3706

1 A. Two.

2 Q. In your statement you say that the shelling started at around 5.00

3 and that you took refuge in the bathroom and that you left the bathroom

4 definitely at 8.00 o'clock in the night?

5 A. Yes, that's right. I didn't use it after that.

6 Q. Tell me: Why were you in the bathroom until 8.00 o'clock at

7 night?

8 A. Because that was the time until when you could hear the

9 explosions. After 6.00 o'clock, the intensity subsided, and it completely

10 stopped at 8.00 o'clock.

11 Q. So although the intensity became less after 6.00, you still spent

12 two hours in the bathroom?

13 A. Yes. I would go in and out.

14 Q. And when the shelling was strongest, according to your

15 descriptions, you spent half the time in the bathroom and half the time

16 outside of the bathroom?

17 A. Well, I spent 60 per cent of my time in the bathroom, I would say.

18 That would be the rough ratio.

19 Q. Was anybody wounded in front of your house, Mr. A?

20 A. In front of my house, I didn't see anyone wounded there.

21 MR. RE: Your Honours, I'm loath to interrupt my friend. There is

22 a matter which I wish to raise about evidence tomorrow. I apologise for

23 not raising it with the legal officer before. Would it be an appropriate

24 time, given that there's only a couple minutes to go, to do it now?.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Is it convenient to break in your cross-examination

Page 3707

1 now, Mr. Petrovic?

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Can this matter be raised with the witness here?

4 MR. RE: Preferably not.

5 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues]... Close the

6 shutters.

7 So we're going to have to come to an end of your evidence today

8 and resume tomorrow. If you could leave with the orderly as soon as the

9 shutters are down. Thank you.

10 [The witness stands down]

11 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Re.

12 MR. RE: Could we go into private session for what I'm about to

13 say?

14 JUDGE PARKER: There's justification for that, is there?

15 MR. RE: In relation to tomorrow's witness, yes.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, we'll have a private session.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

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21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

22 at 1.48 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

23 the 9th day of March, 2004,

24 at 9.00 a.m.