Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3710

1 Tuesday, 9 March 2004

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21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrovic: [Continued]

24 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. A.

25 A. Good morning.

Page 3722

1 Q. I'd like to continue from where we left off yesterday, and I

2 should like to ask the usher to show you document P54.

3 MR. PETROVIC: Can you put it on the ELMO, please.

4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. A, on this map, could you please take a look

5 at number 3. Can you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is that where your house is?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I don't need the document any more.

11 Mr. A, you told us yesterday that -- I apologise, but could I ask

12 the technical booth to lower the ELMO so I can see the witness better when

13 I am addressing him.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think this helps, doesn't it? You

15 can see me better. Am I a handsome guy?

16 Q. Yes, gold all over. On the corner of your house, you saw two

17 photographers standing at the corner to your house; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Tell us, please, from the corner of Uska Street and Stradun to the

20 city bell tower, how far is that distance?

21 A. It's about 80 metres.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Petrovic. Microphone

23 for counsel. Microphone, please.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic.

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.

Page 3723

1 Q. On page 13, line 2 of the transcript, you said yesterday that you

2 yourself, from the distance that you were at, were not able to recognise

3 the victim that was lying below the bell tower; is that right?

4 A. Yes, that's right.

5 Q. On page 13, line 25 this time, in response to a question from my

6 colleague Mr. Re as to whether you were able to recognise the clothing

7 that the victim was wearing, you said yes -- you said no, you couldn't

8 even recognise the colours from that distance. So you concluded that it

9 was victim Pavo Urban exclusively on the basis of what the photo reporters

10 told you.

11 A. Well, I heard their story, yes.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Your conclusion, therefore, was made on the basis of what you

15 heard them talking about; is that right?

16 A. Yes, correct.

17 Q. On page 13, line 7, my learned friend Mr. Re asked you whether you

18 had seen what the victim was wearing, and on page 13, line 14, your answer

19 was that he was wearing some sort of vest. It says "very dark coloured"

20 in the transcript.

21 A. He always wore that kind of vest as a general rule.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. On page 13 once again, line 7, my colleague explicitly asked you

25 the following: "What was he wearing that particular day? What did the

Page 3724

1 victim have on him that particular day?" And your answer to that question

2 by my colleague was this: "A very, very dark coloured vest."

3 Further on, when you took a look at the photograph provided by

4 Mr. Re, you immediately changed your opinion and said, "Yes, yes. It was

5 a red vest."

6 Now, why, sir -- why, Mr. A, did you first say -- when directly

7 asked what the person was wearing that day, your answer was, "A very, very

8 dark coloured vest."

9 A. You didn't link up the facts properly there.

10 Q. Tell me where I went wrong then.

11 A. I said that he usually wore a red vest -- black vest --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, interpreter's correction: Black vest.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- when we were together. And on

14 this photograph I can see -- I saw that it was a red vest, which meant

15 that it wasn't the vest he usually wore.

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. A, are there any problems with the interpretation in this

18 courtroom?

19 A. I don't understand what you mean.

20 Q. Well, it is my impression that your words were not properly

21 interpreted again, although I gave you the page and line where it says

22 what you said before this Trial Chamber yesterday. So I'm asking you, is

23 everything all right in the interpretation, not to go on with any

24 mistakes?

25 A. Yes, everything is all right. Yesterday on the photograph I saw a

Page 3725

1 red vest.

2 Q. Everything you told us yesterday about the position of the victim,

3 what was next to the victim, is in fact what you deduced by looking at the

4 photograph shown to you by my colleague yesterday; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. Everything else or, rather, the other thing that I want to ask you

7 today about where the man was lying, the position he was in, et cetera,

8 that would have no sense because you are only deducing it on the basis of

9 the picture my colleague handed to you yesterday.

10 A. That's not true. I saw the body myself underneath the bell tower.

11 Q. Would you be so kind as to tell us whether during the shelling you

12 ever went into the second part of your house, where Mrs. Aleksic was.

13 A. Not on that day, no.

14 Q. Mr. A, why did you then tell us yesterday, Mr. A, when we were

15 looking at the video excerpt, why did you indicate Mrs. Aleksic's windows

16 as being the windows through which you allegedly saw the body of the

17 victim lying underneath the bell tower?

18 A. That's not true.

19 Q. Do you remember, Mr. A, the statement you gave to the

20 investigators?

21 A. A lot of time has gone by since then. I know the general gist of

22 the statement and the chronology, which I consider to be the most

23 important thing. Now the details that you are highlighting are obviously

24 ones that you yourself require.

25 Q. Is it true that yesterday you said on page 14, line 19, that your

Page 3726

1 colleagues -- or the colleagues of the victim had risked their lives had

2 they tried to pull the body away?

3 A. Yes, I said that.

4 Q. Yesterday, you also told us that you took a look through the

5 window, told your wife -- and went to tell your wife that the victim, that

6 the person had been hit.

7 A. Yes, and that the victim was lying down on the ground.

8 Q. I assume your wife was in the bathroom all the time. How much

9 time did it take you to go back to the window?

10 A. About half a minute.

11 Q. On page 15, line 5 of the transcript, you said the following:

12 "Underneath the window I saw an ambulance, and the ambulance had reached

13 the person." Is that right?

14 A. When I came up to the window, the ambulance was on its way to the

15 bell tower, the direction being west-east, and I saw the ambulance reach

16 the body and then I no longer saw the body. At that point in time, I went

17 back to tell them in the bathroom that the ambulance had indeed arrived,

18 and when I went back to the window, they managed to put the body into the

19 ambulance very quickly, and I no longer saw the ambulance either. That's

20 what I said yesterday.

21 Q. So you first saw the ambulance coming up to the victim underneath

22 the bell tower, and then you saw the ambulance leaving; is that right? Or

23 did you go into the bathroom to tell your wife that the ambulance had

24 arrived? What was the sequence of events?

25 A. When I got to the window, I saw a car coming. I -- I had the need

Page 3727

1 to go back to the window to see what was happening, and I saw the vehicle

2 go past my window, underneath my window, and I could clearly see that it

3 was a white van with red stripes down the middle with the Red Cross sign

4 on it, the Red Cross emblem, and I watched this throughout. I saw the

5 ambulance drive towards the victim up until the point when the ambulance

6 was between me and the victim and I was no longer able to see the victim

7 lying down, just the ambulance.

8 Q. Throughout that time, the material time that we're talking about,

9 the shelling of that particular area was not going on. There was no

10 shelling; is that right?

11 A. No. The shelling was most intense at that point in time, and

12 shells were falling all around quite close by.

13 Q. During that interval, you said yesterday that they were falling

14 every second. Is that right?

15 A. Yes, that's what I said.

16 Q. Well, is it correct? Is that right?

17 A. That's the feeling I had. Yes, it is right. It was all hell

18 breaking loose.

19 Q. When you went outside again, you couldn't see the victim or the

20 ambulance; is that right?

21 A. Correct. Right.

22 Q. Were any other vehicles passing by the Stradun at that time?

23 A. No other cars, no.

24 Q. Would you have heard any other car if it passed by?

25 A. Yes, I would, because the window is about four metres up from the

Page 3728

1 Stradun, maximum of four metres.

2 Q. Were there any other people on the Stradun at that time?

3 A. I didn't see anybody except the two photographers at the corner of

4 Stradun and Uska Street. So just up by my building on the western facade.

5 Q. Mr. A, how long was the victim lying down under the bell tower?

6 A. When I heard the screams saying, "Pavo's been hit, Pavo's been

7 hit," by the two photographers, that's when I went up to the window and I

8 clearly saw below the bell tower the body. It was motionless, lying on

9 the ground, and I went back and said what I'd seen. So as far as I could

10 see, all this lasted perhaps five minutes.

11 Q. Did you see anybody standing around the body of the victim?

12 A. Nobody.

13 Q. Did anybody try to assist the victim underneath the bell tower?

14 A. As I said yesterday, I was preparing to go outside, and had the

15 two photographers rushed out into the open space, they would certainly

16 have been killed with all the shells that were falling round about.

17 Q. At that -- the moment that the body was lying underneath the bell

18 tower, were shells falling on the Stradun itself?

19 A. The shells were falling in that part, on the western side of the

20 Stradun, too. In all parts of that area around St. Blaise Church and

21 thereabouts. And I really don't know how nobody else was killed, the

22 people from the ambulance, for example. It's really amazing. I always

23 wondered how they managed to survive.

24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may we now play a

25 video clip, but we're not on such good terms by far with the technical

Page 3729

1 booth as my colleague on the opposite side, so there may be some problems

2 there, but I hope we will do all right.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You weren't in town then.

4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I'm afraid -- yes, the technical

5 booth -- it seems to be all right now. We can see it on our screens.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MR. PETROVIC: [In English] Stop. Stop.

8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. A, can you see this? Is this the bell tower

9 area?

10 A. Yes, it's below the bell tower.

11 Q. And is this the body?

12 A. That's where the body was, but the position of the body was

13 different when I saw it.

14 Q. Well, would you please explain to us how the body changed its

15 posture.

16 A. Well, probably under the pain that the person was suffering.

17 [Videotape played]

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Is this -- stop. Stop the tape there, please. Thank you. Is

20 this --

21 A. No.

22 Q. May we have a fast forward, please, and then stop. Stop there.

23 Is there the space around St. Blaise Church?

24 A. Yes, the Orlando's monument has been protected by wooden planks

25 there that you can see.

Page 3730

1 [Videotape played]

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. What kind of vehicle is this? What kind of car is this, Mr. A?

4 A. I don't know. I haven't seen this car.

5 Q. Can shells be seen on this footage, those that are falling in this

6 area of Stradun towards the Pile Gate and also the St. Blaise Church?

7 A. How can shells be seen on a still photograph?

8 Q. Mr. A, was this vehicle passing by at the moment when the victim

9 was lying underneath the town bell tower?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. From the moment when the victim was hit up to the moment when the

12 ambulance arrived, if five minutes went by and if you were following all

13 the time what was going on, how come you didn't see this, Mr. A?

14 A. That was at a different time. I just described the time when I

15 heard the voices of his colleagues, and I described those five minutes

16 when this was happening. Now, when the late person got killed is

17 something I don't know. I myself do not know that.

18 Q. So perhaps he was hit half an hour, an hour, or two hours earlier?

19 A. Possibly.

20 Q. And, Mr. A, you basically don't know anything about that?

21 A. I don't.

22 Q. Mr. A, do you know that this victim died of bleeding?

23 A. Yes. I found out about that later.

24 Q. Do you know that this victim died because he lay there for hours

25 and nobody gave him any kind of assistance?

Page 3731

1 A. Yes, because nobody could have helped the victim. The situation

2 was not a normal one.

3 Q. Mr. A, does that differ from what you said to us here yesterday?

4 A. I don't think I said anything different.

5 Q. Mr. A, now we are going to deal with the statement that you gave

6 to the Office of the Prosecutor in the month of September 2002. So we're

7 talking about page -- let me actually try to find the English version for

8 my learned friends.

9 The last paragraph on page 4 of the English version. This is what

10 you say, Mr. A.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that they do not have the

12 text.

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. "During the day I saw from the window of my apartment when a

15 friend of mine was hit by a shell, Pavo Urban. He was a journalist and

16 photographer."

17 A. I meant --

18 Q. Please wait for me to put the question to you. Sir, why did you

19 say that you saw from the window when your friend was hit? Why did you

20 not tell the investigators the truth?

21 MR. RE: I object to that. I object to it on two bases. First of

22 all, the suggestion that the witness is lying; and secondly, if you read

23 the sentence, it is actually ambiguous. Is says: "Sometime during the

24 day I saw from the window of apartment, my friend Pavo Urban, a journalist

25 and photographer --" Sorry: "... Pavo Urban, a journalist and

Page 3732

1 photographer, hit by a shell."

2 The way it's translated into English, "hit" can be read two ways.

3 The way it's put, "hit" could be, "I saw him, he had been hit by a shell,"

4 or, "I saw him being hit by a shell." It's the way it's written. The

5 mere fact that it's translated this way doesn't mean the witness said it

6 in that way nor that he's not telling the truth now. So I object on those

7 two bases.

8 I mean, of course we know, because he gives his statement in

9 Croatian, it's then translated in English, read back to him in Croatian,

10 my learned friend now reads it to the translators in Croatian -- in

11 Croatian and it comes back in English again. So it gets translated three

12 or four or five times, so you lose all the nuances.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Continue pursuing the matter, Mr. Petrovic, yes.

14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. A, when do you tell the truth, Mr. A? Do you tell the truth

16 at all? Did you tell the truth to the investigators or did you tell the

17 truth yesterday to the Trial Chamber?

18 A. Sir, I came here guided by my own conscience in order to lessen

19 the suffering of all in the former Yugoslavia and to finally get rid of

20 the anathema over the entire area so that all ethnic groups, the Serb and

21 Montenegrin people, inter alia, should live a normal life and we should

22 not slaughter each other every half a century. That was my objective.

23 That's why I came here. I came here for the general good. I did not come

24 here to lie or because I wish your client any evil. Those who should try

25 him can try him. I'm not trying anybody. I came here to tell the truth.

Page 3733

1 Your Honours, I had to say this because this is my motive, why I

2 came here.

3 Q. Mr. A, you would help the Honourable Trial Chamber the most if you

4 would tell the truth.

5 A. I'm only telling the truth.

6 Q. The next sentence, Mr. A: "He was hit at a distance of about 20

7 metres from my apartment."

8 Obviously you are talking about this as if it were something that

9 you were watching yourself. Why did you tell the investigator that? Did

10 he not understand you?

11 A. That's probably the way I put it, about 20 metres away, but at

12 that moment I wasn't really thinking about it. At the time I had that

13 feeling. I mean, I never actually did any measuring. Later on, when I

14 walked around Stradun, I know how long my steps are, I sort of realised

15 how long it was, but it's not that much of a difference, and this seems so

16 important to you.

17 Q. The next sentence, Mr. A: "He fell down and was lying on his

18 stomach."

19 A. That's what I saw.

20 Q. Sir --

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. "He fell down on his stomach." When was it that you saw him

23 falling and when was it that you saw him lying on his stomach?

24 A. I said that several times yesterday. You are trying to set me on

25 a collision course. You are trying to say that I'm contradicting myself.

Page 3734

1 I saw him lying immobile, and it is in that context that I interpreted

2 this.

3 Q. Mr. A, did somebody misinterpret what you were saying again?

4 Yesterday you said that he was lying on his back, and today you said that

5 he was lying on his stomach. Is it a mistake in the interpretation?

6 A. On the photograph that was shown to me, he was lying on his back,

7 and that's the same photograph you showed just now. That's the picture

8 that was shown to me yesterday, too, except that it was a close-up.

9 I myself saw him in a spasm, lying on his left hip. His feet were

10 facing the north, his head was facing the south. So that's the way it

11 was. If you have any feeling of space, that was it. I saw him lying that

12 way, in that position.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic, microphone.

15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, because of the special

16 measures involved this time, I have to keep my microphone off and then I

17 have to put -- turn it on again, but I'll try.

18 Q. You said --

19 MR. RE: Before we go on, can I ask my learned friend to say where

20 in the transcript he said yesterday he was lying on his back. I've just

21 done a search of the transcript and I can see at line 13:10 he said: "He

22 was lying on his left hip, as if he were crouching, facing the west."

23 JUDGE PARKER: Was it the evidence or the statement?

24 MR. RE: The evidence.

25 JUDGE PARKER: In reference to the back.

Page 3735

1 MR. RE: My learned friend just said, "Yesterday you said he was

2 lying --" "Yesterday you said --" line 25 -- sorry, page 25, line 3.

3 "Yesterday you said he was lying on his back and today you said he was

4 lying on his stomach. Is this a mistake in the interpretation?"

5 I assume my learned friend is referring to "Yesterday you said in

6 the transcript..." I can't find it. If it's there, I just ask him to

7 point it out to me.

8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yesterday Mr. Re

9 showed a photograph, and everything this witness said about the position

10 of the body was on page 13. Everything he said, he said on the basis of

11 that photograph. Not in a single word did he refer to anything else but

12 what he saw in the photograph.

13 Your Honour, on this photograph, as he confirmed today, the man is

14 lying on his back. So everything else is misinterpretation. Not in a

15 single word did he mention what he said today, that he was lying on his

16 stomach. These are two completely different things.

17 MR. RE: That's just incorrect. The only question I asked was at

18 13:1 -- 13:3, "What position was the body lying?" Answer: "He was lying

19 on his left hip --" which I understand to be at the front of the body --

20 "as if he were crouching, facing the west." I then showed him the

21 photograph and asked him what he -- how he identified it, and he

22 identified the photograph of the person Pavo Urban, not of the person

23 lying as he saw him. That wasn't the purpose of showing him the

24 photograph; it was the identity of Mr. Urban who he'd said his face he

25 couldn't recognise from so far away. To put to the witness that he said

Page 3736

1 one thing yesterday and another now is just incorrect. He did not say

2 yesterday in evidence that he saw Mr. Urban lying on his back or at all.

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. A, did you say to us yesterday here that you saw Pavo Urban

5 lying on his stomach? Yes or no.

6 A. I don't remember that I ever said that he was lying any other way

7 but on his stomach.

8 Q. So yesterday you said to us here that he was lying on his stomach.

9 A. As I described him, as I described him as he was lying there. I

10 could not have seen anything else. Anything else would be a lie.

11 Q. Do you know, Mr. A, where he was hit, where Pavo Urban was hit?

12 A. You mean which part of his body? I mean, don't make me read your

13 mind, read your thoughts.

14 Q. Do you know where the victim you saw lying below the city bell

15 tower was hit?

16 A. I don't know. I heard later from what people were saying that he

17 was hit in the stomach.

18 Q. Now your statement of three years ago goes on to say: "I think he

19 died several moments after he was hit."

20 Mr. A, how did you know that? Why didn't you say exactly what you

21 knew about this or, rather, that you didn't know anything about it?

22 A. All those statements were based on stories and what I learnt from

23 others, in this specific case from his colleagues. And I asked them

24 afterwards, and they said that he expired within the space -- that he was

25 motionless within the space of ten seconds.

Page 3737

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. A. You should have told us that much earlier on,

2 and that would have shortened the time that we have spent here in front of

3 this Trial Chamber.

4 A. It was you who did not conduct the process properly.

5 Q. I'm going to tell you now, Mr. A, I put it to you that you didn't

6 see any of this, that since 5.00 in the morning until 8.00 in the evening,

7 longer than anybody else in the Old Town, you sat in your bathroom and

8 that all this is what you construed on the basis of the stories told by

9 others.

10 A. That's what you say.

11 Q. Yesterday, and this is on page 19, line 21 --

12 JUDGE PARKER: Is this new subject matter, Mr. Petrovic?

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE PARKER: I think we might have a break now, then.

15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, yes.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. A, would you please describe for us the damage done to the

21 house you lived in between Izmedju Polaca number 10. And you said that

22 this occurred on the 6th of December, 1991.

23 A. The greatest damage was to the roof construction as well as to the

24 facade, the result of shrapnels and explosive devices which caused cracks,

25 et cetera. On my part of the roof the western belvedere window was

Page 3738

1 completely damaged and just held on by a piece of tin. But on the western

2 side there was a large hole and a smaller hole, as I've already said,

3 which was superimposed or, rather, right above the big hole.

4 On the eastern side of Mrs. Aleksic's part of the roof --

5 Q. I asked you about your house. Is that all?

6 A. Yes, that's all.

7 Q. Tell me first, please, on the belvedere, the one that was

8 seriously damaged, the hole, as you said a moment ago if I understood you

9 correctly, was facing west.

10 A. The belvedere was hit face on. It was just the hole that was more

11 towards the west, on the flat area of the roof or, rather, the slant of

12 the roof.

13 Q. That was the only damage on your half of the house; is that right?

14 A. Yes. But from the explosion, the domes were shifted.

15 Q. Why did you tell us yesterday that the partition walls had been

16 damaged?

17 A. I read that from a report written by an expert. And yes, they

18 were. The partition walls were damaged. Parts of the facade were in

19 ruins and rubbles, and all the debris from the roof fell inside, actually.

20 Q. So the real damage you described in response to my question. All

21 the rest you read from the report that was before you yesterday.

22 A. Well, I'm not an expert myself. I'm not a civil engineer, so

23 that's what I did. I myself am a technologist.

24 Q. But I'm sure you can remember the damage done to your own house.

25 A. Yes. As I said, the roof was destroyed --

Page 3739

1 Q. All right. You've told us that. Thank you, that will do.

2 You also told us yesterday that the hit to the belvedere was a hit

3 by a mortar. It was a mortar projectile of 120 millimetres; is that

4 right?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. You also told us that there were two hits.

7 A. Yes. And I deduced that from the holes, the two holes, the larger

8 hole and the smaller hole, which were partially superimposed.

9 Q. Do you therefore consider that the two mortar mines hit the same

10 place, shells hit the same place?

11 A. Yes, roughly the same place.

12 Q. But you can see the two different hits; is that right?

13 A. Well, I judge that by the diameter of the circle, the aperture

14 that was caused.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, counsel.

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Did you talk to the people from the institute who came to assess

18 the damage in the Old Town?

19 A. No. I wasn't at home that day, so they took the stabiliser fin

20 from the couch that I described, otherwise I would have kept it as a

21 trophy to remind me.

22 Q. Who gave them this information, what was hit, how much damage was

23 done? Your wife, I assume.

24 A. No. My wife let them into the apartment, and they did an on-site

25 investigation and drew up a report. That's the way they work.

Page 3740

1 Q. So they toured the apartment on their own and that kind of thing?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did your wife tell you how much time they spent in the apartment?

4 Because it's a large house, a tall house, five levels.

5 A. Yes. She did say that they were there for about 15 or 20 minutes.

6 Q. Tell me, please, who told them that your house had been hit by an

7 82-millimetre projectile?

8 A. I don't know. You should ask them that. I don't know whether

9 they are professional enough to be able to determine for themselves.

10 Q. So this fin from the shell that you found, you established that it

11 was a 120-millimetre one; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You knew that at that point in time, as you did your military

14 service, were interested in artillery pieces, and that the calibre was

15 written down on the fin.

16 A. Yes, on the cap. And that's what it said. And I found this mark.

17 When I was mobilised later on, I had occasion to hold a shell and the

18 capsule and the fin of that kind in my hand, so I knew that was it. And I

19 know what an 80-millimetre shell is and a 120-millimetre one. I can

20 compare it to the parts of my body in size.

21 Q. If your part of the house was hit twice, do you know why the

22 institute recorded only one hit on your house?

23 A. Probably of the lack of professional training. They're not

24 forensic experts. They're not professionals in matters of projectiles, I

25 assume.

Page 3741












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3742

1 Q. So in addition to that, they didn't gather up information from

2 people who could tell them something; you, or your future wife, or anybody

3 like that?

4 A. I don't know. I didn't actually ask them. I had no personal

5 contact with them at all.

6 Q. And a moment ago you told us that they took that stabiliser fin

7 away with them; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] May I now ask the usher, please, to

10 show the witness Exhibit P98.

11 Q. Mr. A, can you see on the transcript that you read yesterday that

12 it says that it was an 82 projectile that had allegedly hit your house?

13 A. Yes, I can read that.

14 Q. So that's probably a mistake, Mr. A?

15 A. Yes, they did make a mistake.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. In the description of the damage done, we can see just one direct

19 hit. So I assume they were wrong there, too, were they?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. They also mention in their report something that you failed to

22 mention yourself, some partition walls and so on. I assume they were

23 wrong there, too, were they?

24 A. No. I assume they're more professional there than I am. I saw it

25 visually, but I'm not able to assess the statics and the damage done to

Page 3743

1 the statics of the house.

2 Q. Now, would you be so kind as to tell me, please -- or, rather,

3 take a look at the photograph, and it's on page 3 of the document before

4 you. Is it true that this photograph is a photograph of the house where

5 Mrs. Aleksic lives?

6 A. Yes, correct. That's right, because I can see the corner of one

7 side of the house and not the other.

8 Q. Tell me, please, do you know something about the damage done on

9 Mrs. Aleksic's part of the house?

10 A. As far as Mrs. Aleksic's roof is concerned, I went to take a look

11 at that the next day and it seemed to be far greater. And I know that

12 because the right-hand side -- so there are two owners, of the left-hand

13 side and the right-hand side of the building. The right side is the owner

14 of my part of the house, and in the 1970s, he renovated the entire roof

15 construction. So it was far more resistant and in a better condition to

16 suffer damage of that type.

17 Q. Tell me, please, how large was the hole on Mrs. Aleksic's roof, on

18 her half of the building?

19 A. Well, you couldn't actually see the hole because the whole roof

20 was razed. It was eliminated. So all that was left was the wooden

21 construction and the beams. And it was only looking at the beams that you

22 were able to see where the projectile actually hit the roof.

23 Q. So what you're saying is that there was no roof. No roof remained

24 on Mrs. Aleksic's part of the house.

25 A. That's right, just the bearing beams. But otherwise, no tiles or

Page 3744

1 anything like that.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic.

4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Take a look at the previous document, which refers to Izmedju

6 Polaca Street number 8, that house. How come the experts failed to record

7 what you yourself personally saw?

8 MR. RE: How can he answer that? I object.

9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I withdraw the

10 question.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Does it say in this document that is before you, Mr. A, what you

14 have just told us? It says: "Direct blow against the roof destroyed a

15 part of the roof construction, approximately 16 square metres."

16 You said there were no tiles left on the roof at all, so who is

17 wrong; you or them?

18 A. I don't know. It's a matter of interpretation, one's personal

19 view of events.

20 Q. Well, you will allow, Mr. A, for the fact that you can see if the

21 roof has -- if a house has a roof or does not have a roof. That's not up

22 to interpretation. Sixteen square metres is a small part of the roof.

23 A. They had in mind the bearing capacity of the roof, not the tiles,

24 et cetera.

25 Q. Would you explain that to us? What do you mean by bearing

Page 3745

1 capacity and construction of the roof?

2 A. They are the lateral bearing beams and the basic wooden

3 construction.

4 Q. But they didn't record what you yourself saw, and that is that not

5 a single tile remained on Mrs. Aleksic's roof.

6 A. Well, I remember that because for a long time afterwards, on the

7 whole roof there was a sort of rubber tarpaulin or plastic protective film

8 because they didn't have time to repair the damage.

9 Q. Would you agree with me when I say -- if I say that the

10 professionals got it wrong and you got it right? Would that be the case?

11 A. That was my impression. I can't say that they got it wrong. I

12 don't know who got it wrong, but the damage was much greater or appeared

13 to be much greater in quantity. In quality, I can't say.

14 Q. So are you right when you say that there wasn't a single tile left

15 standing on the roof or the people who say that just an area of 16 square

16 metres suffered damage?

17 A. I'm just giving you my own impressions.

18 Q. In describing the damage done to the Old Town, yesterday you said

19 that unfortunately on the Stradun - and you told us that on page 19, line

20 21 - vehicles weren't able to pass that way and nor were the pedestrians

21 because of all the rubble on the Stradun; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, that is correct.

23 Q. Could you describe for us, please, were there large pieces of rock

24 or tile or stone, or what it looked like generally.

25 A. There were stones and tiles and bits of wood of different shapes

Page 3746

1 and sizes along the buildings themselves. And this was a thick layer

2 which thinned off towards the centre of the street, the centre of Stradun.

3 Q. The efforts made by the citizens of the Old Town, I assume, were

4 geared towards clearing up the debris slowly. So how long did this take,

5 how many days? After how many days were you able to walk that way more or

6 less normally?

7 A. Well, as I said yesterday, at about 7.00 the fire brigade turned

8 up to put the fire out on buildings that were burning, and after that fire

9 brigade teams turned up. They were the only ones who had the necessary

10 tools to clear up the rubble, and they went on cleaning late into the

11 night. It was dark, so I assumed they had to stop this cleaning when it

12 got really dark and then resume the next morning, and they went on until

13 about 11.00, as we were able to see on one of the pictures shown

14 yesterday.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. So what you're saying is that somebody during the night cleaned

18 everything up, picked up all the rubble, the stones, the beams; that all

19 that was cleared up during the night.

20 A. That wasn't possible. Not everything could have been cleared up

21 during the night. As some of it was to ensure normal necessary

22 communication via the Stradun, which is the main street in town, and then

23 they continued this cleaning up operation the next day until about 11.00.

24 Q. Why 11.00? How come you know it was 11.00 precisely?

25 A. Well, I know that because I walked around and looked the next day.

Page 3747

1 It was very cold. Nobody liked to go out much, and nobody did unless they

2 had some business to attend to.

3 Q. Well, were you able to see this looking out of your window?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When did they start cleaning and finish cleaning?

6 A. I don't know. I got up -- well, I was exhausted, so I got up

7 sometime around 8.00 or 9.00, thereabouts. But while I was still lying in

8 bed, I heard the work going on and the tools being used, the sounds of the

9 clearing up underneath my window.

10 Q. Was a dredger used to pick up the rubble and debris?

11 A. No, that wasn't possible. They did it with their hands and

12 shovels and picks and anything they had to hand, any tools that were to

13 hand.

14 Q. The film that my colleague Mr. Re showed you yesterday, that

15 footage, that was taken when everything was cleaned; is that right?

16 A. Yes. That's what it appeared to me to be. So I can't tell you

17 the exact time when it was filmed but thereabouts.

18 Q. Perhaps the film was taken around 11.00. Is that possible?

19 A. Yes, probably. Perhaps.

20 Q. Perhaps you know who took the film, who filmed it all.

21 A. I don't know that.

22 Q. Was the film taken that same day?

23 A. How do you mean the same day; the 7th? The 7th, the 6th?

24 Q. Who mentioned the 7th, Mr. A?

25 A. I did.

Page 3748

1 Q. Why did you meaning the 7th, Mr. A?

2 A. Because Stradun looked that way on the 7th in the afternoon.

3 That's when it was cleared up. It was cleared up that morning, more or

4 less.

5 Q. Mr. A, the Stradun was completely clear, if that was on the 7th,

6 then on the 7th, the 8th, the 9th, the 20th. Where do you get the idea

7 that this footage was taken on the 7th?

8 A. I assume. I don't know. I really can't say.

9 Q. What do you base your assumptions on, Mr. A?

10 A. I don't know what I base my assumptions on.

11 Q. Did you talk to anybody, Mr. A, from -- since yesterday? Between

12 yesterday and today, did you discuss this matter with anyone?

13 A. No, with no one.

14 Q. But you recognise the cleaned up Stradun of the 7th, for instance,

15 and not the 27th.

16 A. No. It was like that throughout those days, roughly the same

17 state.

18 Q. And you say you know that that was on the 7th.

19 A. I don't know.

20 MR. RE: I object to this. Out of fairness to the witness, my

21 learned friend should put -- remind the witness of the question I asked

22 him yesterday in relation to the video at page 19:16, when I showed it to

23 him and said, "Does that video clip we've just shown depict the state of

24 the Stradun in the Old Town in Dubrovnik on the 7th of December 1991?" To

25 which the answer was, "At this point in time the street had been cleaned

Page 3749

1 considerably. There was far more debris before," and so on.

2 Out of fairness, Mr. Petrovic should put that to the witness if

3 he's suggesting that he's spoken to people overnight which have implanted

4 in his mind the idea that the video I showed him yesterday and said --

5 suggested to him was the 7th was in fact the 7th.

6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I answer Mr. Re?

7 It is precisely for the sake of fairness and equality in this

8 courtroom that I'm putting this question. It is quite clear, it can be

9 seen from the context of that answer, that the gentleman implicitly

10 denies, implicitly denies that the recording was made on the 7th because

11 everything was cleaned, and today he comes here with a different story.

12 That's what causes my concern, Mr. Re. And that is only fair if one reads

13 what he said in response to your question regarding the film of the 7th.

14 Implicitly he denies that this was taken on the 7th because he said that

15 everything was cleared, and that's what I'm asking him about.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic, I must say what you see by way of

17 implication is not something that I see. As I consider the answer that

18 has been, and the question that have now been read by Mr. Re, it seemed to

19 me the witness was saying, yes, this is a film showing how it was on the

20 7th after it had been cleared.

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Your

22 Honour, with your permission, I would just like to play that part of the

23 tape now. This is Exhibit P78.

24 [Videotape played]

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 3750

1 Q. Is this a cleaned Stradun, Mr. A?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What time is this?

4 A. I don't know. These fire hoses were there only on that day on the

5 Stradun. That's the only thing I can say. It's only if I had filmed this

6 myself could I say anything with a high degree of certainty. It would be

7 unfair for me to say anything for sure in relation to material that was

8 made by someone else.

9 Q. At any rate, this is what Stradun looked like when it was cleared.

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. And the cleaning of Stradun happened overnight.

12 A. In part during the night, but for the most part it was done in the

13 morning.

14 Q. Was there an alert on that day, Mr. A?

15 A. That day? I can't remember. I cannot remember. There were so

16 many that it's hard for me to place them all.

17 [Videotape played]

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. This looks as if it had been cleaned in great detail, as if all

20 the dust had all been cleaned and everything.

21 A. Well, no, no. Not all the dust could have been cleaned.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Is this in front of St. Blaise's Church?

25 A. That's right. In front of the entrance into the church, on the

Page 3751

1 northern side.

2 Q. Please be so kind as to tell me why somebody did not carry away

3 these rocks. These are pretty big rocks.

4 A. Probably because every little piece of rock in the Old City is

5 valuable. So it was probably there for the sake of restoration or other

6 processes.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Please stop now. If you can rewind

9 it a bit, please.

10 [Videotape played]

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Microphone.

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Do you see this, Mr. A?

15 A. I do.

16 Q. How come nobody cleaned this, Mr. A?

17 A. I don't know. They should be asked, those who did the cleaning.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. You saw pieces of rock, didn't you?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Again, nobody had collected them.

23 A. Probably for the same reason like the stones in front of Sveti

24 Vlaho, same place; for the sake of restoration.

25 Q. Mr. A, please be so kind as to tell us the following: During the

Page 3752

1 night between the 6th and 7th of December, who decided which stones should

2 be removed and which should not because they were important for

3 restoration?

4 A. I know as much as you do about that. So that's my answer to that

5 question.

6 Q. But somebody certainly did decide "We're going to clean this and

7 we're not going to clear that."

8 A. Yes. Various institutions that were in charge of the Old Town and

9 the heritage there, I assume.

10 Q. Probably that night already they decided and made an assessment in

11 terms of what should be cleared and what should not. Am I right?

12 A. I assume you are. Perhaps it can be put that way.

13 Q. Thank you. Mr. A, do you considerably and unnecessarily, if I may

14 say so, exaggerate in describing something that was truly a sad day in the

15 history of Dubrovnik?

16 A. I should like to assure everyone present in this courtroom today

17 that I did not even tell half of the entire truth. I wished to be and I

18 wish to be as objective as possible.

19 Q. It is with regret that I have to say that I agree you did not say

20 even half of the whole truth.

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, I have no

22 further questions.

23 MR. RE: I object to that last comment --

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic. Could I indicate, before

25 Mr. Re is heard, that it is a gratuitous comment that you made at the end.

Page 3753

1 It was not a question, it was an observation on your assessment of the

2 evidence. When put to a witness, that is not a proper way of conducting

3 the hearing. You may, in your final submission to this Tribunal put

4 submissions how we should evaluate the evidence of particular witnesses,

5 but that's not your function at the present time. If you could bear that

6 in mind for the future.

7 Now, Mr. Re --

8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. May I

9 please, with your permission, say that this last part of the tape that we

10 saw was a Prosecution exhibit, P78, and that Mr. A was shown from 18

11 minutes, 50 seconds, to the 22nd minute of that film. That footage was

12 shown to Mr. A.

13 And the first video clip that was used in the cross-examination

14 was V000-1789. This was material that was disclosed to the Defence by the

15 OTP, and the section from the 13th to the 15th minute of that material was

16 used there.

17 In view of the technical constraints that the Defence has, I await

18 your instructions, Your Honour, in terms of whether I should try to have

19 these clips copied and should I then tender them or is what I have done so

20 far by way of marking it sufficient for the Trial Chamber at this point in

21 time?

22 JUDGE PARKER: It seems to us to be adequate, Mr. Petrovic.

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Now Mr. Re.

25 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 3754

1 Re-examined by Mr. Re:

2 Q. Now, Mr. Witness A, you were asked a number of questions in

3 cross-examination about your living in the village or area of Cilipi in

4 September and October 1991.

5 MR. RE: Can the witness please be shown Exhibit P9, which is the

6 Times map of the relevant portion of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.

7 Q. Witness A, I just want you to locate the village of Cilipi in that

8 area on the map and just point to it.

9 MR. RE: Can you just move it up a little bit. Can you move it up

10 -- [B/C/S on English channel]

11 Q. You're indicating -- [B/C/S on English channel]

12 MR. RE: I seem to be getting B/C/S interpretation in my

13 headphones. Are other people experiencing that? Is it okay now, the

14 interpretation? Okay.

15 Q. Witness A, you were pointing on the map somewhere near the

16 Montenegrin border on the coast of Dubrovnik; is that correct?

17 A. That's right.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Re, please.

19 MR. RE:

20 Q. You described yesterday observing JNA patrols in the area. Was it

21 within the territory of Croatia or did you go across the border into

22 Montenegro and Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23 A. Radovcici is a Croat village within the territory of the Republic

24 of Croatia.

25 Q. Is the answer to my question no, you didn't go across the border

Page 3755

1 into Montenegro and Bosnia-Herzegovina?

2 A. Never. Never at that time.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. RE: May the exhibit be returned, please.

5 Q. My learned friend Mr. Petrovic yesterday cross-examined you about

6 the word "mobilisation" which appears in your statement and your

7 correction of that to the Office of the Prosecutor and in court to

8 "organised" or"self-organised." I want to show you the Croatian language

9 version of the statement of the 14th and 18th of September, 2000. I've

10 highlighted in yellow a portion on the fifth paragraph in which the word

11 "mobilisation" has been used.

12 Yesterday Mr. Petrovic referred to your use of the word

13 "mobilisation," and this was the third example he used. I want you to

14 read allowed to the Trial Chamber the highlighted portion.

15 A. "As far as I know, our village had carried out mobilisation

16 independently of others, not having received instructions from anyone.

17 Actually, the situation was rather chaotic and there was not enough time

18 to organise a real army and to develop a proper chain of command."

19 Q. Can you read the next sentence, please.

20 A. "In addition to that, no one from the outside helped us. If the

21 Territorial Defence from Dubrovnik did have some weapons, it had been

22 stored in Trebinje."

23 Q. Thank you. Could I have the statement back, please.

24 And yesterday, although you said the word "mobilisation" had been

25 or was more aptly described as "organised," is what you said, that portion

Page 3756

1 that you just read out and is in your statement, is that a correct state

2 of affairs?

3 A. Yes. Except for the word "mobilisation."

4 Q. You told the Trial Chamber yesterday that you were not given a

5 copy of the statement, and the first time you saw or were given a written

6 copy was when you came to The Hague in January this year. When did you

7 realise the word "mobilisation" didn't quite accurately reflect what you

8 describe as "organisation"?

9 A. Even then when this was translated to me orally after having

10 completed my statement, I probably then indicated the mistakes in the

11 translation as well.

12 Q. Yesterday Mr. Petrovic also questioned you about your relative

13 Ivan Rados and what you -- what you had written in your statement, and he

14 referred to a correction of the statement which he had which the Office of

15 the Prosecutor provided to him after speaking to you. Again, when was the

16 first time you realised, having had a chance to read the statement, that

17 the statement wasn't entirely correct, and when did you offer the

18 correction to the Office of the Prosecutor?

19 A. I said that straight away after having read this statement.

20 Q. Mr. Petrovic also asked you yesterday about the forces at Srdj and

21 what you were able to observe. To your knowledge, which forces were

22 stationed at Srdj in December 1991? And I mean by "Srdj," in the area of

23 the Imperijal fortress as opposed to below it.

24 A. I can only talk about what I heard. I was not up there, but what

25 I heard was that there were about 30 members of the Territorial Defence up

Page 3757

1 there from Dubrovnik and that they were the ones who bore the brunt of

2 defence against the attack that day, the attack that was carried out with

3 tanks and the infantry.

4 Q. Did you hear it at the time, that is in December 1991, or at a

5 later point, or can't you remember?

6 A. Yes, yes. I heard that in December, too, as I did later as well.

7 Q. Yesterday in cross-examination you spoke about your own

8 mobilisation into the Croatian forces after what you described as its

9 recognition by other states. When do you think - and if you don't know

10 just please say so - that the Croatian defence actually became an

11 organised defence?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. What was your opinion of the date -- when do you say Croatia

14 became recognised internationally? What is your view?

15 A. I know; the 15th of January, 1992. Various countries recognised

16 us, and then the Vatican and others, and then it went on.

17 Q. You also told Mr. Petrovic yesterday that you were living rent

18 free in the building because you take care of it for the owner. Was that

19 the situation in 19 -- in December 1991 as well?

20 A. That's right. Immediately after that, I got this organised from

21 the 7th of December, say from mid-December. There was some construction

22 material that was given to the city by way of aid, and whoever wanted to

23 protect his house from further decay and protect it from rain and snow

24 could do so. So I made an effort and we improvised this temporary roof.

25 Q. Are you saying by that that you assisted in repairing the roof?

Page 3758

1 A. I participated in maintaining the building, and that is the

2 attitude I have until the present day. I treat the building as if it were

3 my own and take good care of it, and therefore the owners respect me.

4 Q. Who repaired the damage to the roof of the building, that is Mrs.

5 -- over Mrs. Aleksic's side and over your own side, and when was that

6 done?

7 A. The main protagonist of this project was the City of Dubrovnik and

8 various humanitarian institutions. As for the form that it takes today,

9 the roof was finally repaired in a thorough fashion sometime about two and

10 a half years ago.

11 Q. Mr. Petrovic also asked you about the clothes that Mr. Urban was

12 wearing and the clothes you observed on the body which you say you

13 identified by people saying Pavo Urban has been hit. What's your memory

14 some 12 years and four months later of the clothes he was wearing, or the

15 clothes of the person you saw on the ground was wearing? What's the state

16 of your memory now?

17 A. He had civilian clothes, and it was hard to tell from a 70-metre

18 distance what kind of clothing it was. Usually he wore jeans as trousers.

19 And as for the upper part of his body, usually he wore a shirt and a vest,

20 but that day I could not see very well.

21 Q. How long do you think that you were looking at this body for

22 before you went back inside? That is, how long did you have to record in

23 your mind what the person was wearing, the one who was lying on the

24 ground?

25 A. I was watching for about ten or 15 seconds when I first went up to

Page 3759

1 the roof.

2 Q. When you first went up to the roof. What do you mean by that?

3 A. I first went to the roof about 8.00 in the evening. That's the

4 first time I left this area. It was the first time I went up to the roof.

5 I looked at what had happened on the roof, and then I went out.

6 Q. It may be -- it may be my question wasn't precise enough. I'm

7 asking you about when you looked out the window, to your right onto

8 Stradun, you heard some people saying, "Pavo has been hit," and you saw a

9 body, as you described, lying face down there. How long were you looking

10 at the person for?

11 A. I've already said in response to your -- your previous question,

12 about ten or 15 seconds.

13 Q. Today Mr. Petrovic cross-examined you about when Mr. Urban was

14 lying there, and you were saying that his colleagues had risked their

15 lives by trying to pull the body away. What was the risk to them?

16 A. He got killed -- I mean, they would have gotten killed because

17 projectiles were falling all over.

18 MR. RE: Could the witness please be shown Exhibit P94.

19 Q. Mr. Petrovic asked you about the body which you identified

20 yesterday in the photograph of -- as that of Pavo Urban, and you told the

21 Court that he was your friend and you knew him. And your

22 evidence-in-chief yesterday, and in cross-examination, was of seeing him

23 lying, as you said, on his left hip, crouching, facing west. It may seem

24 an obvious question, but does this photograph show the body of the person

25 that you -- in the position that you saw it from your window when you

Page 3760

1 looked right onto the Stradun?

2 A. This is not the position that I saw from the window.

3 MR. RE: May the exhibit be returned.

4 Q. Again I want to show you a passage and a copy of your statement on

5 which you were cross-examined. This is the statement of the 14th and 18th

6 of September, 2000. I've highlighted a passage in yellow.

7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic.

9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I have to express my concern over

10 the way in which the redirect is taking place. The witness is being given

11 his statement to read out. I think that this is quite wrong in terms of

12 questioning the witness. Could questions please be put to the witness

13 directly in relation to what I cross-examined him about. But for the

14 witness to read out portions of his written statement is quite

15 inappropriate.

16 Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE PARKER: It depends on the purpose of the re-examination

18 whether it is proper for the witness to be shown his earlier statement or

19 not, Mr. Petrovic.

20 At the moment it is not clear to me, Mr. Re, what it is you're

21 about to do.

22 MR. RE: I'm going to ask him to read, and the reason I've given

23 him the statement rather than my reading it in English and having it

24 translated back to him is to read at that passage in relation to when he

25 saw Mr. Urban's body on the ground and to ask him to -- I'm sorry. Mr.

Page 3761

1 Petrovic put each line of that to the witness. I'm going to ask him to

2 explain each of the lines which were put to him earlier without

3 explanation, without asking for his explanation of them, that's all.

4 JUDGE PARKER: I think that's a proper use of the statement,

5 Mr. Petrovic. That will be allowed.

6 MR. RE:

7 Q. Could you please look at the highlighted portion.

8 MR. RE: And for the record, it's the seventh paragraph on page 3

9 -- sorry, page 4. That is the third last paragraph on that page and it

10 is the fourth -- sorry, the last paragraph on page 4 of the English there,

11 unnumbered.

12 Q. Just read that to yourself for a moment.

13 Please read the first line aloud.

14 A. "In the course of the day I saw from the window of my apartment

15 when my friend Pavo Urban was hit by a shell, a journalist and

16 photographer."

17 Q. I want you to tell the Trial Chamber what you mean -- first of

18 all, this is a statement which would -- in which you spoke to an

19 investigator; is that correct? Mr. Arshad.

20 A. That's how it was translated. I don't remember. It was a long

21 time ago.

22 Q. I want you to tell the Trial Chamber what you meant by that line,

23 that is that you saw your friend Pavo Urban was hit by a shell. What do

24 you mean -- what does that line mean?

25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic.

Page 3762

1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the question "What do

2 you mean" by something that is in written form is quite inappropriate.

3 The witness was questioned in detail with respect to the circumstances,

4 and he stated his views. So what does the question mean "What do you

5 mean?" "What does that line mean?" It means what it says. I don't see

6 where this examination on the part of Mr. Re is leading to. Thank you,

7 Your Honour.

8 JUDGE PARKER: I wish life was as simple as you put it there,

9 Mr. Petrovic. It is amazing how many times, at least in the English

10 language, words are written and can mean one thing to the writer and

11 another thing to the reader, and I think it is that which Mr. Re is

12 exploring.

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my conclusion is based

14 on what it says in the B/C/S version, what this sentence means both

15 logically and grammatically. Thank you for allowing me to make that extra

16 comment.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Re, carry on, if you would, please.

18 MR. RE:

19 Q. What do you intend to mean by what is written there? Just that

20 line, the first sentence.

21 A. What I wanted to say was that I saw Pavo Urban lying underneath

22 the bell tower.

23 Q. Please -- please go to the next sentence which, in English, says:

24 "He was hit when he was at a distance of about 20 metres from my place."

25 Can you just read that out loud.

Page 3763

1 A. "He was hit some 20 metres from my apartment."

2 Q. Again -- again, what did you intend to mean by what is written

3 there?

4 A. I meant that from that distance, I was able to see the body lying

5 on the ground.

6 Q. Please go to the next sentence which, in English, says: "He fell

7 down and was lying on his stomach." Please read aloud what it says in

8 Croatian.

9 A. "He fell to the ground on his stomach."

10 Q. Again, what did you intend to mean by what is recorded in that

11 statement?

12 A. He was lying face down, stomach down, on the ground.

13 Q. Did you intend to mean by what is recorded in that statement that

14 you actually saw him being hit by a shell and falling to the ground?

15 A. No. I wanted to describe him lying down on the ground.

16 MR. RE: That concludes my re-examination, Your Honours.

17 Questioned by the Court:

18 JUDGE PARKER: I wonder, sir, can you tell the Chamber at some

19 time did you actually see the man you've identified or understood to be

20 Pavo Urban lying on the ground near your apartment that day?

21 A. Correct, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Did you see him standing in that vicinity that day?

23 A. No.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Did you see him falling to the ground?

25 A. No.

Page 3764

1 JUDGE PARKER: When you saw this person on the ground, will you

2 describe in your words how the body was lying.

3 A. I described that to Mr. Petrovic already today, so I'll describe

4 it again in the same way, or in a similar way, of course, because you can

5 never describe it the same way. He was lying with his head turned to the

6 south, his legs to the north. He was turned to his left -- on his left

7 hip so that his face -- he was contorted, in a contorted position, and his

8 face was turned towards the west.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Does that mean that he was lying on his left side,

10 on his left hip?

11 A. Yes, he was lying on his left hip.

12 JUDGE PARKER: I have difficulty understanding that description

13 and your description that you saw him lying on his stomach. Are you able

14 to explain that further?

15 A. Yes. He was in a contorted position so his whole stomach couldn't

16 have been in contact with the ground, but he was lying with a tendency of

17 leaning towards the ground.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Well, sir, I'm able to tell you now

19 that your evidence is at an end so that you are free now to leave the

20 Chamber and to return to your home. May we thank you for the time and

21 inconvenience that you have suffered to come here, and express our

22 gratitude for your assistance.

23 If you would now go with the court officer.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, for your

25 understanding.

Page 3765

1 [The witness withdrew]

2 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Somers.

3 MS. SOMERS: Good morning, Your Honours. Thank you for allowing

4 me to speak in furtherance of what I would call a reconsideration on

5 additional grounds -- excuse me. Correct. It should be private session,

6 if I may. So sorry. I thought --

7 JUDGE PARKER: Is this a renewal of the application that we heard

8 this morning?

9 MS. SOMERS: It is, Your Honour, and accordingly I would ask if we

10 could return to private session in order to further that application.

11 JUDGE PARKER: We will go into private session.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3766












12 Pages 3766 to 3770 redacted private session.














Page 3771

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 12.38 p.m.

14 [Open session]

15 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Somers.

16 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honours. Are we in private session

17 still?

18 JUDGE PARKER: We are not.

19 MS. SOMERS: May I ask if we can return for a moment.


21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3772












12 Page 3772 redacted private session.














Page 3773












12 Page 3773 redacted private session.














Page 3774

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.43 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 10th day of

3 March, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.