Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5712

1 Monday, 3 May 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Good afternoon, Dr. Rudolf.

7 Welcome again. May we remind you of the affirmation you took at the

8 commencement of the proceedings.

9 Yes, Ms. Somers.

10 MS. SOMERS: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Thank you very much.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Examined by Ms. Somers: [Continued]

14 Q. Mr. Rudolf, when we broke last time, we were looking at some

15 documents under -- that had been at tab 9 of the binders. Sorry, not tab

16 9. I'm so sorry. I'll get it for you in a second.

17 Tab 13. There were several sets of documents. And the first of

18 them we had begun to look at, I believe the document which has been

19 labelled P165, which discussed information about the lives of the

20 negotiators - yourself, Mr. Cifric, and Mr. Kriste - being at risk.

21 Moving on to additional documents in that section, I would ask

22 that the document labelled -- that bears the ERN -- in English, it's

23 03091853; in Serbo-Croatian, it's 01076134 -- be shown to you, please.

24 If it would make it easier, I can also ask that the next set of

25 documents, to save some steps for Mr. Usher, which would be English

Page 5713

1 03091852, Croatian 01076133 also be shown. And 01 -- and English 03091854

2 Serbo-Croatian, 01076135. So there are basically three sets of documents

3 that will be presented to you for your speedy review.

4 Mr. Rudolf, do you have in front of you the document which is

5 dated the 7th of December and it -- in the upper corner, 01076134 in

6 Serbo-Croatian, shows 1015 hours. Do you have that in front of you?

7 A. I do.

8 Q. Just indicate, please -- I will run through it for you, and ask,

9 first of all, do you recognise this particular document?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And is it a document that came from your hand, whether it was

12 authored by you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. It is on Dubrovnik Coastal Radio Station, and it is a request to

15 transmit the following message to the Boka Naval Sector Command, to Vice

16 Admiral Miodrag Jokic: "Reference: Our radio telegram of this morning.

17 Because of damage which we have just determined that the vessel Arka has

18 suffered, we are forced to replace it with the vessel Krila Dubrovnika

19 with respect to which we hereby ask you that you assure its free and safe

20 passage under UNICEF's flag from Gruz harbour via the south side of the

21 island of Lokrum to Cavtat, that is, to your ship and back."

22 Now, did you, in fact, depart on that vessel? Is this correct?

23 Does this represent the means by which you would leave from Dubrovnik to

24 Cavtat for completion of the negotiations, on the 7th?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5714

1 Q. Now, if you would turn, please, to the next document, which is in

2 English the 03091852; in Serbo-Croatian, 01076133. Do you see that,

3 Mr. Rudolf?

4 A. Would you repeat the numbers. 617891?

5 Q. It is the very first -- it's actually a single document,

6 Mr. Rudolf. It's in Serbo-Croatian, 01076133. Do you see it?

7 A. 61 -- yes, I see it. It's on the top.

8 JUDGE PARKER: And the tab number?

9 MS. SOMERS: It's all from 13, Your Honour. There were several

10 documents under tab 13. And it was -- has the Chamber been able to find

11 it?

12 JUDGE PARKER: [Microphone not activated]

13 MS. SOMERS: Okay, thank you.

14 Q. The text of it, it is for yourself. Do you recognise this

15 document? Do you recognise the text of it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. It is from the Boka Naval Sector, dated 7 December at 1110 hours,

18 address to you, the Dubrovnik Crisis Staff for Minister Davorin Rudolf.

19 "We accept your suggestion that you travel aboard the Krila Dubrovnika

20 hydrofoil boat. There is a gale in Cavtat so it will be difficult to hold

21 talks. We suggest that you sail into Srebreno harbour where we will be

22 waiting for you to hold talks. Will assure the safety of your vessel from

23 Srebreno harbour and back, and your own personal safety."

24 Did you, upon receipt of this, set sail? I'm sorry, Mr. Rudolf,

25 on receipt of this communication --

Page 5715

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And again, the confirmation of that is the next document, which in

3 English is 03091854; Serbo-Croatian, 01076135. Do you have that in front

4 of you, Mr. Rudolf?

5 A. I do, yes.

6 Q. It is dated 7th of December. It is to Admiral Jokic, Boka Naval

7 Sector. In Serbo-Croatian it shows an 1130 hour. "With reference to your

8 radio telegram received at 1100 --" or I have 1110 pencilled in -- "we

9 confirm our arrival in Srebreno." Signed Davorin Rudolf. Does this

10 succinctly show the order of communiques that preceded your departure with

11 the assurances you needed to go and conduct he negotiations?

12 A. Yes.

13 MS. SOMERS: I ask to move all three documents into evidence,

14 please.

15 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, it appears these documents are

17 already in evidence.

18 MS. SOMERS: I do not have numbers on these particular documents,

19 Madam.


21 MS. SOMERS: I think that was a different one, from tab 16.

22 JUDGE PARKER: P165 is dated the 7th of December, but it is a

23 different document. It's the English of number 57, 1857. But not the

24 other ones, it seems.

25 MS. SOMERS: So there are three documents, Madam Registrar, one of

Page 5716

1 which is the first one, which ends, in English, 1853, in Serbo-Croatian,

2 6134. We ask for --

3 THE REGISTRAR: That one would be marked as P168.

4 MS. SOMERS: The second one would be, if I may assist you, it ends

5 in, in English, 1852, in Serbo-Croatian, 6133.

6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be marked P169.

7 MS. SOMERS: And the last was ending in -- sorry.

8 JUDGE PARKER: 1854, perhaps?

9 MS. SOMERS: Yes, that's it. And in Serbo-Croatian 6135.


11 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much.

12 Q. Mr. Rudolf, when you set from Dubrovnik, did you in fact land in

13 Srebreno? Did you dock in Srebreno?

14 A. Yes we came to the Srebreno port. However, this hydrofoil had

15 very deep paws, and we couldn't set in, we couldn't berth in. We threw

16 the rope, admiral Jokic grabbed it and tried to tie it, but we couldn't

17 get close to the shore because the hydrofoil had these deep paws, and we

18 agreed therefore to go to Cavtat instead and carry out our negotiations

19 there.

20 Q. You said that Admiral Jokic grabbed the rope or the line for the

21 boat. Where was Admiral Jokic when you arrived at Srebreno?

22 A. We couldn't set in. We couldn't berth in because there was this

23 very high breakwater.

24 Q. Right. Where was Admiral Jokic then? Was he actually waiting for

25 you at the dock?

Page 5717












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Page 5718

1 A. Yes, at the dock itself.

2 Q. And did he personally take the line and try to tie the line of the

3 boat, the rope of the boat?

4 A. Yes, he did.

5 Q. If you were not able to dock in Srebreno, what did you then do?

6 Where did you go?

7 A. We agreed that we should go to Cavtat to hold negotiations there.

8 That's what we did. We went there by boat, and I believe that Admiral

9 Jokic took the car.

10 Q. Now, in Cavtat, we have gone over earlier the various provisions

11 of the signed series of negotiations. I will just ask, if I can ask Madam

12 Case Manager just to direct me to the exhibit number or the tab, if

13 possible. If not, I'll look quickly.

14 My question to you, though, is there were a number of points in

15 the cease-fire -- in the comprehensive negotiation agreement that you

16 signed on the 7th of December. Did Admiral Jokic offer any resistance to

17 any of the provisions in that agreement?

18 MS. SOMERS: Your Honours, it is on page -- tab 14 of your

19 binders, if it would be of any help.

20 Q. Was there any resistance or was there agreement on the 7th of

21 December?

22 A. He offered no resistance. He had only two objections, only two

23 comments. One was that all the obligations were on the army's side

24 because -- and we had no obligations at all. And his second comment was

25 that we wrote the text in Croatian whereas he said that it would be good

Page 5719

1 to have it in Serbian, so we made a compromise. In some places we used

2 the name of the month in Croatian; in other places, we would write it in

3 Serbian. Those were the only small details that had no particular

4 importance.

5 Q. And was -- can you describe the -- shall we say the mood of the

6 negotiating parties at that time, if you're able to comment.

7 A. The negotiations started with my protest on behalf of the Croatian

8 government against the attack on Dubrovnik, whereupon Admiral Jokic got

9 up, took the floor, and apologised for the attacks. He said that the

10 Minister of Defence, General Kadijevic, will address an apology to me,

11 Dubrovnik, and the European monitors.

12 After that, I sat down, and then a representative of the European

13 Community observers made a protest on behalf of the European observers.

14 After that, Admiral Jokic responded once again and apologised, and then we

15 started negotiating on the various items and started writing the text of

16 the agreement.

17 Q. I want to be sure that I understand you correctly. The behaviour

18 you described just now as an apology by Admiral Jokic, this was above and

19 beyond the regret expressed in his faxed communication to you on the 6th

20 of December? This is yet another apology at the time, on the 7th?

21 A. Yes, correct. I'm sorry, I just failed to mention that when we

22 found ourselves in Cavtat, he gave me an envelope with a letter from

23 General Strugar.

24 In answer to your question, yes, he apologised again after

25 expressing regret in his earlier radiogram and on the phone.

Page 5720

1 Q. Do you recall if the monitors from the European Community were

2 also -- were present at this time during these negotiations on the 7th of

3 December?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was Mr. Hvalkof present with you inside?

6 A. Yes, it was him. He was the one who stood up and expressed the

7 protest on behalf of the European Community.

8 Q. At any time during negotiations on the 7th of December, did

9 Admiral Jokic ever tell you that the forces of the JNA were trying to hit

10 military targets or objectives inside the Old Town of Dubrovnik on the 6th

11 of December?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Since December 1991, have you had any contact with Admiral Jokic?

14 Up to today's date; have you had any contact since then up until now?

15 A. No.

16 MS. SOMERS: Just a second. I want to check one note.

17 I would ask that the video from Witness Grbic, which is P66, which

18 has an accompanying transcript, be shown through Sanction, and just for

19 two or three points in there. I would ask also that the transcripts be

20 distributed. We have them both in English and Serbo-Croatian.

21 Q. Mr. Rudolf, I'm going to ask my colleague to show a part of a

22 video which depicts a concert that is taking place in Dubrovnik, and then

23 a news flash, as it were. It was, I believe, a televised concert. If we

24 could just take a look at it, and I would direct the attention of those

25 who have the transcripts in English.

Page 5721

1 [Videotape played]

2 MS. SOMERS: We will advance it to the correct...

3 [Videotape played]

4 MS. SOMERS: Sorry, our -- thank you very much. What is in the

5 background, as you can see, is -- appears to be a concert.

6 Q. Do you see the date of 5 December 1991? Sorry, you should have

7 heard music. You heard something over it. Are you able to read the

8 byline which is underneath, the printing which is underneath? I'll ask my

9 colleague to perhaps replay it so you can see.

10 [Videotape played]

11 MS. SOMERS: Thank you. Stop, please.

12 Q. Mr. Rudolf, were you able to read the print as it was going past

13 the screen? Are you familiar with that transmission or are you able to

14 indicate whether or not this type of transmission -- first of all, would

15 you be kind enough to tell the Chamber what it actually says. It should

16 be on page --

17 MS. SOMERS: In English, Your Honour, on page 13 of 20 in your

18 English translation. It says "information ticker," 5/12/91.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says that in the occupied town of

20 Cavtat, an agreement was reached with the Yugoslav People's Army on the

21 strict observation of the cease-fire and that a concert was held in

22 Dubrovnik to mark the anniversary of Mozart's death.


24 Q. Is this transmission or type of transmission shown to the public

25 at large in Dubrovnik?

Page 5722

1 A. I don't know that.

2 Q. To your knowledge, was the fact of the negotiations known to the

3 people of Dubrovnik?

4 A. Yes. Precisely. It was our message and my message, because we

5 considered that we had reached an oral, verbal agreement on the

6 cease-fire.

7 Q. On the same video, moving ahead to portion -- let's see. The

8 English would be the bottom of page 13, if I can ask Ms. McCreath to try

9 to advance it. It discusses Major General Radomir Damjanovic is the text

10 in there.

11 [Videotape played]

12 MS. SOMERS: If you can stop for a minute.

13 The translation of that, Your Honours, is on page 13 at the

14 bottom, continuing on to the top of page 14.

15 Q. Mr. Rudolf, the comment that is attributed to General Damjanovic,

16 first of all, had you heard of General Damjanovic? Were you aware of who

17 he may have been, who he was?

18 A. I heard of him, but I did not know that he was a general and

19 things like that. I have heard of him, but I don't know anything in

20 detail.

21 Q. The comment which was attributed to him, that the smoke was

22 probably most -- was probably -- "most probably caused by arson, adding

23 that was most probably a case of tyres being set on fire." Is this type

24 of comment one that you had become familiar with as a --

25 A. Yes, yes. I was familiar with that. But I did not know that

Page 5723












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Page 5724

1 General, as it says here, Damjanovic, but I thought that it was somebody

2 else, another general in Belgrade who had said it, General Gvero. This

3 statement of General Gvero was broadcast over the radio or on television.

4 Q. Moving on, on to page 15 of the English transcript, and I'm trying

5 to find it for -- I believe in B/C/S, it would be on page 18. I hope that

6 helps. If I could ask my colleague to try to play...

7 [Videotape played]


9 Q. Were you able to hear from the announcer who was portrayed on the

10 screen? Did that come through? If not, I can ask Ms. McCreath to replay

11 it. Perhaps part of it didn't come through.

12 A. I heard the first sentence.

13 Q. And what -- again, it is attributed to General Damjanovic. That

14 was: "It was carried out by one small unit only when they started

15 suffering more and more casualties," said Damjanovic. "Several grenades

16 were fired at the old city, not intending to hit the buildings occupied by

17 the citizens, but in order to neutralise mortar positions." Does this

18 explanation comport with what you observed directly, first-hand in

19 Dubrovnik?

20 A. No.

21 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much.

22 Your Honours, I do not believe that these transcripts had been

23 offered into evidence at the time the video was. And if I may offer them

24 into evidence to assist the Chamber, I would ask to do so, please.

25 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

Page 5725

1 THE REGISTRAR: This document is P171.

2 MS. SOMERS: Thank you.

3 JUDGE PARKER: I don't think the transcript reflected that the

4 agreement at tab 14 is already Exhibit P61.

5 MS. SOMERS: No, Your Honour. That was a separate line of

6 inquiry. I was asking Mr. Rudolf about another aspect of the agreement.

7 But I wanted to make sure that this particular set of transcripts came to

8 the Chamber and that some of the explanations offered were in evidence.

9 Excuse me just a second.

10 Q. How long did you stay in Dubrovnik after the conclusion of these

11 negotiations, Mr. Rudolf?

12 A. I think about ten days altogether. Perhaps seven or eight.

13 Q. And during the period in which you were in Dubrovnik, were you

14 satisfied that the terms of the negotiations were being implemented, that

15 the parties had, in fact, made a determination to implement them, both

16 sides?

17 A. Yes. The agreement of the 7th of December, yes.

18 Q. Do you know whether or not the JNA left -- or do you know when the

19 JNA left Dubrovnik all together, if you're able to give a general time

20 period? If you are not, it is all right as well. Did its presence

21 continue into 1992?

22 A. You mean the town of Dubrovnik? They were not in Dubrovnik at

23 all.

24 Q. The area. The area.

25 A. Oh, the area. I think they finally left in May. I'm not sure.

Page 5726

1 1992.

2 Q. Thank you. And do you know whether or not General Strugar was

3 still in theatre at the time?

4 A. No.

5 Q. I'm sorry, you say --

6 A. No. No, I don't know.

7 Q. Okay. Are you aware as to whether or not the forces under the

8 control of the JNA indeed did thin out and were withdrawn from areas close

9 to the city of Dubrovnik from where they had been originally positioned at

10 the time of the negotiations?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Did you receive any particular protests from either the Croatian

13 side -- or from the Croatian side within the ten-day period that you

14 remained in Dubrovnik about the terms of the December 7th negotiations?

15 A. Let me explain: I spent a total of about ten days there. So all

16 this time I spent in Dubrovnik was about ten days. And as far as I can

17 remember, no, there were not any protests.

18 Q. The expression of regret, the apology as it were, and the

19 demeanour of Admiral Jokic on the 7th of December, are you able to

20 indicate if you viewed it as with force, with conviction? Was it, in your

21 view, from what you saw, heard, dealt with at the time, was it

22 communicated to you with conviction from Admiral Jokic?

23 A. Yes, that was my impression.

24 MS. SOMERS: No further questions at this time. Thank you very

25 much.

Page 5727

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Somers.

2 Mr. Rodic.

3 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Could I just

4 have a moment, please, so that I can fix the lectern.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Rodic:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Rudolf. I'm Goran Rodic,

7 attorney-at-law. And on behalf of the Defence, I'm going to put a few

8 questions to you in relation to your testimony.

9 A. Good afternoon.

10 Q. It seems to me that during the examination-in-chief, you said that

11 as minister of maritime affairs in the Croatian government, or rather you

12 were in the Croatian government as minister for maritime affairs from July

13 1990 until August 1992. Is that right?

14 A. Well, yes. I don't know the exact dates, but approximately that

15 was about it.

16 Q. Is the year when you became minister 1990 or 1991?

17 A. 1990.

18 Q. Did you give a statement to the investigators of the Office of the

19 Prosecutor in the period from the 2nd to the 6th of October 2003?

20 A. I gave a statement, but I don't know if that is the exact date.

21 Q. You gave the statement in Zagreb, didn't you?

22 A. One statement in Zagreb and one statement here in The Hague. But

23 I don't know the exact time of either.

24 Q. This statement from October 2003, did you read it? Did you sign

25 it?

Page 5728

1 A. I did, the last one. Well, I've forgotten when I was last in The

2 Hague. I think it was about two months ago, something like that.

3 Q. Tell me, just before giving evidence here, did you read this

4 statement of yours from October, and did you make any corrections?

5 A. The last one, yes, I did make some corrections in view of the

6 translation. It seems to me that the English text is better than the text

7 in Croatian. There were two corrections, I believe, that were of major

8 importance.

9 Q. I'm going to read paragraph 4 to you of your statement from

10 October 2003. You say: "I was appointed on July 1991 and remained in

11 office until August 1992."

12 A. That's a mistake. It is 1990.

13 Q. So the correct date would be?

14 A. July 1990.

15 Q. Tell me, since it is a question of two years, this was probably

16 not a full term of the government that you served on. I just wanted to

17 ask you one more thing. Since we understand each other, since we speak

18 similar languages, could you please pause briefly before answering my

19 question so the transcript could correctly reflect what is being said.

20 A. I was in the government after the democratic elections in Croatia.

21 Q. What did you do after August 1992?

22 A. After August 1992, I was president of the State Commission for

23 Borders. And after that, ambassador in Rome. I was actually accredited

24 to Italy, Malta, San Marino.

25 Q. Tell me, while you were minister for maritime affairs, the Prime

Page 5729

1 Minister was Mr. Greguric. Right?

2 A. The first Prime Minister was Stjepan Mesic, Mr. Stjepan Mesic.

3 The second government had Mr. Manolic as its Prime Minister. And

4 Mr. Greguric was Prime Minister of the third government. And I was a

5 minister in all three of these governments.

6 Q. You said that only in 1993, if I'm not mistaken, you became an

7 active member of the Croatian Democratic Union and that you were its

8 member until 1999.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So in all these three previous governments in which you were

11 minister, whose candidate were you?

12 A. I was no one's candidate. And I did not belong to any political

13 party.

14 Q. Tell me, please, during your term of office as minister for

15 maritime affairs from 1990 until 1992, did you attend government meetings?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Tell me, did you attend some meetings with the then-president,

18 Tudjman?

19 A. When he was in charge of the government, yes. And for a while, I

20 was minister of foreign affairs. Of course, I don't know what you mean by

21 "meetings" actually, but when consultations were supposed to be held, yes.

22 Q. In addition to being minister for maritime affairs and minister of

23 foreign affairs for a while, did you have any other position in the

24 then-government or in any body that the government established at that

25 time?

Page 5730

1 A. The State Commission for Borders.

2 Q. And tell me, at that time, was there a Supreme State Council?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you tell me who made up this council?

5 A. Well, it was the president of the republic and a number of

6 ministers. And of course, when I was minister for foreign affairs, then I

7 was a member, too.

8 Q. So you took part in the meetings of the Supreme State Council on

9 certain occasions?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Tell me, please, do you know when the National Guards Corps was

12 established in the Republic of Croatia?

13 A. I don't know exactly, but I think it was around the month of March

14 1991. I'm not sure.

15 Q. In that period, were the units of the National Guards Corps of the

16 MUP of Croatia armed?

17 A. Yes. How else would they operate? How else would there be such

18 units?

19 Q. Were these weapons imported?

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the answer.

21 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Do you know the origin, where the weapons came from?

23 A. Mostly they were seized from the Yugoslav People's Army.

24 Q. I would just like to ask you the following: In response to my

25 previous question - the question was actually do you know where the

Page 5731

1 weapons came from - what is the answer?

2 A. As I said, this was not within my line of work, and I don't know.

3 Q. And the answer that you gave to my other question, that weapons

4 were obtained by being seized from the JNA, can you explain that to me in

5 greater detail?

6 A. That was generally known. I'll tell you, I concluded an agreement

7 with General Cado for the Rijeka area, and the JNA had to return the

8 weapons of the Territorial Defence of the Republic of Croatia. Also, for

9 this second agreement, the one that I concluded in Zitnic, it was agreed

10 that the Yugoslav People's Army should return the weapons of the

11 Territorial Defence. And I think that in both cases, the weapons were

12 returned.

13 Q. That is governed by an agreement with the JNA?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Then if -- in my opinion, that cannot be called seizing.

16 A. Call it what you like.

17 Q. Was there any real seizure in the real sense of that word?

18 A. I don't know if you are aware of the fate of some barracks where

19 the JNA withdrew, leaving weapons behind, such as in Varazdin and some

20 other places.

21 Q. In that period, 1991, were there any attacks as well on JNA

22 barracks and units stationed in them?

23 A. I did not follow these events to be able to answer this precisely.

24 Q. Was this discussed at all at meetings of the government of

25 Croatia?

Page 5732












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Page 5733

1 A. I cannot give you an answer to this now because any answer I could

2 give would be neither precise nor accurate. But of course, our relations

3 with the Yugoslav People's Army were discussed very often and at length.

4 Q. Could you give me some details of those discussions that took

5 place at government sessions regarding the JNA.

6 A. Well, sir, the objective of the Croatian government was to

7 suppress, to avoid armed conflict, because Croatia did not have any

8 weapons in the beginning, or did not have enough to resist such a powerful

9 force as the Yugoslav People's Army, which was thought then to be the

10 fourth strongest army in Europe. And many of our agreements were

11 motivated by a desire to avoid conflict and reach a compromise. I

12 remember government sessions where we would agree with General Raseta

13 concerning some places around Zagreb on a cessation of hostilities, and

14 then several hours later, or the next day, we would receive news that the

15 Yugoslav People's Army entered those towns. You probably know that in

16 places where clashes occur, especially between some rebelling insurgent

17 Serbs and the Croatian forces, the Yugoslav People's Army would come,

18 deploy, and support the insurgent Serbs. That happened in the Knin

19 Krajina and in occupied territories.

20 Q. Tell me, beginning with 1991, did you spend most of your time in

21 Zagreb?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Tell me, were JNA barracks besieged at the time? Did they have

24 their electricity and amenities cut off?

25 A. Yes. Maybe not to all of them, but to some of them, yes.

Page 5734

1 Q. Is it the case that that was -- is it the case that many of the

2 barracks, the majority of the barracks suffered from blockade?

3 A. I cannot answer that. But I can tell you that the JNA supported

4 insurgent Serbs in Croatia, and later supported the Serb policy in Croatia

5 to the full. We in Croatia believed that had the JNA assumed a neutral

6 position, many clashes and many conflicts could have been avoided. Why

7 otherwise should we have requested the JNA to leave our territory, the

8 territory of Croatia?

9 Q. Do you have any idea of the numbers of incidents involving attacks

10 on barracks, military installations, and JNA units in the period from the

11 beginning of 1991 to October that same year?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You wrote a book from which we received a couple of excerpts. It

14 is titled "The War We Didn't Want." Correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you tell me in which year the book was written.

17 A. I wrote it in 1997, 1998, and as you see, it was published in

18 1999. May I add that it was based on material from Belgrade sources, not

19 Croatian sources, in order to be as authentic as possible.

20 Q. Did you use Croatian sources when you wrote the book, when you

21 were writing the book?

22 A. Yes, but for the most part, what is most important comes from

23 Belgrade sources; namely, diaries of the man who was then the president of

24 the Presidency of Yugoslavia, Mr. Jovic, a Serb; and the book written by

25 General Kadijevic. Both these books were published in Belgrade. And you

Page 5735

1 can see clearly from these books how the war was planned, how it was

2 prepared, and who started it.

3 Q. Tell me, were you maybe present at a celebration of the

4 anniversary of independence on the 24th of May 1992 at Ban Jelacic Square

5 in Zagreb?

6 A. Which independence?

7 Q. I mean the anniversary of the proclamation of independence.

8 A. What date was it?

9 Q. 24th of May 1992.

10 A. Croatia proclaimed its independence on the 25th of June. I'm not

11 familiar with the date that you quoted. Croatia proclaimed its

12 independence on the 25th of June 1992 [as interpreted].

13 Q. Yes. But when did you carry out the referendum?

14 A. Before that. But it doesn't matter. The referendum was only a

15 preparatory step for the proclamation of independence. And that was on

16 the same day as the Slovenian referendum.

17 Q. Is it the case that Franjo Tudjman, at the ceremony to mark the

18 anniversary of independence, stated that the war would never have taken

19 place had the Croatians not wanted it?

20 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Somers.

22 MS. SOMERS: I apologise, but I believe there may be a transcript

23 error. The question was Croatia proclaimed its independence on the 25th

24 of June, and it shows a date of 1992. That's not what I believe was

25 heard. If it could be possibly redirected to the witness.

Page 5736

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

2 Mr. Rodic.

3 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I discussed the

4 date with the witness already, the 24th of May. My question is --

5 MS. SOMERS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, the question was it

6 proclaimed its independence on the 25th of June. And the transcript says

7 1992. I don't believe that's what the witness had indicated. And I

8 wonder if it's possible just to rephrase the question and see if that is

9 the answer he intended.

10 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I did not understand what my learned

11 friends means. Which answer? The 25th of June 1992; what's wrong with

12 it?

13 JUDGE PARKER: The question, Mr. Rudolf, is the date upon which

14 Croatia proclaimed its independence. Are you able to recall the date?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 25th June 1991. That is the date

16 when both Croatia and Slovenia proclaimed independence.

17 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. There is also reference to a

18 May 24th, and again the 1992 year came. It's off my screen. I just

19 wonder if that might be re-inquired into because I don't think that's what

20 was transmitted, but I'm not sure.

21 JUDGE PARKER: I can't help with that one.

22 MS. SOMERS: It's off my screen, and unfortunately -- perhaps my

23 colleague could read it back.

24 The page is page 20 and line 25. The question was: "What is the

25 date of the proclamation of independence?" And the answer that was given

Page 5737

1 was 24th of May 1992, and I wonder if that could be just re-inquired into,

2 please.

3 JUDGE PARKER: We've just got that as the 25th of June 1991.

4 Could it have been the date of the anniversary of the referendum?

5 MS. SOMERS: It may well have been, Your Honour. I'm sorry, I've

6 lost it. But if it has no significance to this witness, then I would just

7 move on. Thank you very much.

8 JUDGE PARKER: I think you can move on, Mr. Rodic.

9 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. Rudolf, is it true that President Tudjman, on the occasion of

11 the anniversary of the independence of Croatia, the first anniversary in

12 1992, stated at Ban Jelacic Square: "The war would not have happened if

13 Croatia had not wanted it? It was, however, our judgement that only

14 through war can we achieve the independence of Croatia. That is why we

15 conducted political negotiations, and behind those negotiations we set up

16 military units. Had we not done so, we would never have reached our goal.

17 That is to say, the war could have been avoided if only we had given up on

18 our goals, that is, the independence of our state."

19 A. I'm not familiar with that quotation. However, I lived there at

20 the time, just as you lived in the other part, and I know that Croatia

21 could not have started the war because it did not have the weapons to do

22 so. That was the first precondition.

23 Second, as you know, in the war that happened in Croatia, not a

24 single Croatian soldier crossed over into the territory of either Serbia

25 or Montenegro.

Page 5738

1 Q. That goes beyond the scope of my question.

2 A. You brought it up.

3 Q. I brought up the quotation and asked you if you were familiar with

4 those words. Thank you.

5 JUDGE PARKER: The answer is no.

6 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. That's what I've

7 said.

8 Q. Tell me, please, I suppose you are familiar with the status of the

9 city of Dubrovnik which it enjoyed even in the times of the Socialist

10 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was Dubrovnik a demilitarised city?

13 A. I'm not sure of that.

14 Q. Was it under the protection of UNESCO?

15 A. Yes, it was.

16 Q. The Old Town of Dubrovnik was protected by UNESCO?

17 A. Yes. It continues to be protected by UNESCO.

18 Q. Is it the case that a prerequisite for such a status was the

19 demilitarisation of the entire Dubrovnik, including the Old Town?

20 A. I don't think so. Dubrovnik was one of the four or five towns in

21 Croatia that was proclaimed part of World Heritage, and as such, protected

22 by UNESCO. I don't think demilitarisation was a prerequisite.

23 Q. Do you know if there was a JNA barracks in Dubrovnik?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Does that mean that you think that there could be weapons and

Page 5739

1 military units in Dubrovnik despite the fact that the Old Town enjoys the

2 status of a protected town, protected by UNESCO?

3 A. Yes, I believe so.

4 Q. Do you know, for instance, in 1987, 1988 - that is, before this

5 war - were there any military assets in Dubrovnik?

6 A. I don't know. But let me clarify one thing: When you say

7 Dubrovnik, I understand you as meaning the entire city, not only the Old

8 Town. And I do not know the answer to your question.

9 Q. Do you know if there were any JNA units in the city of Dubrovnik,

10 which means the urban area of Dubrovnik, or maybe even the broader area of

11 Dubrovnik? Were there any JNA units in the period before 1991?

12 A. Before 1991, I don't know. But I suppose there were because it

13 was the time when our state was Yugoslavia, and the Yugoslav People's Army

14 was the army, and you know what the circumstances were.

15 Q. All right. Do you know when the ZNG, the National Guards Corps,

16 was formed in Dubrovnik and when it began obtaining weapons along with the

17 MUP?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Do you know that in July 1991 there began preparations for the

20 defence of Dubrovnik?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Very well. Tell us, please, the following: You mentioned the

23 role you played, namely, that the Croatian government gave you a mandate

24 to negotiate with the General Cad in Rijeka and General Vukovic in Zitnic.

25 Can you tell us, apart from these negotiations and the Dubrovnik

Page 5740

1 negotiations you discussed earlier, did you play a role in any other

2 negotiations with JNA representatives in the territory of the Republic of

3 Croatia?

4 A. Yes. In Split, with General Mladenic, we negotiated the

5 withdrawal of JNA from Split in -- and Divulje. I believe I discussed

6 with General Raseta their move to Rijeka and perhaps Dubrovnik.

7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not quite clear about the

8 last part of the answer.

9 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Tell us about those negotiations that you mentioned and led as the

11 minister for maritime affairs, were they closely linked to the coastal

12 sector and this coastal belt of the Republic of Croatia?

13 A. Yes, for the most part.

14 Q. Is it the reason why you were entrusted with this mandate because

15 you are an expert for maritime affairs and the law of the sea?

16 A. Yes, but it didn't have only to do with the sea itself. It also

17 had to do with the islands and so on.

18 Q. Tell me, the Rijeka Corps of the JNA, did it withdraw peacefully,

19 without any violence or incidents?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was everything in accordance with the agreement that was reached?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was this agreement preceded by some conflicts earlier on?

24 A. You mean in Rijeka?

25 Q. Yes.

Page 5741

1 A. As far as I know, no.

2 Q. Tell me, in the negotiations with General Vladimir Vukovic, who

3 was commander of the Knin Corps, you negotiated in Zitnic, didn't you?

4 Tell me, was this agreement carried through?

5 A. Yes. But in part, it was violated as well. It is the only

6 agreement out of the three that was violated in the Zadar area, rather, in

7 the hinterland of Zadar.

8 Q. Tell me --

9 A. It was carried out, generally speaking.

10 Q. Do you know who negotiated with the JNA in other parts of Croatia?

11 A. I cannot tell you exactly now.

12 Q. All right. It doesn't matter.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What did you know before you were given the mandate of the

15 Croatian government, and to what extent were you familiar with the

16 situation in the Dubrovnik area?

17 A. I knew that in that area, conflicts had started, if I'm not

18 mistaken, sometime in October in Konavle. I knew that Dubrovnik was

19 blocked, which caused particular concern for us. I knew that the

20 situation was very difficult down there and that my task was to reach a

21 cease-fire agreement, first and foremost, and then to reach an agreement

22 on the withdrawal of the Yugoslav People's Army.

23 Q. Did you have any information before you arrived in Dubrovnik as to

24 how many agreements had been reached between the two sides, the Crisis

25 Staff and the JNA, cease-fire agreements?

Page 5742

1 A. I knew, yes, that a series of such agreements had been reached,

2 but that they were not observed.

3 Q. Tell me, were you perhaps familiar with the proposal made by the

4 JNA, it's called the 11-point agreement, that has to do with the

5 normalisation of life in Dubrovnik?

6 A. I don't know exactly. There were many proposals. But what was

7 unacceptable in the talks that we had in Cavtat, too, was that Dubrovnik

8 should be demilitarised, or rather, that Croatian armed forces should

9 leave Dubrovnik. That was unacceptable because we did not trust the

10 Yugoslav People's Army because they had violated such agreement. I

11 already spoke about that when the lady was putting questions to me in

12 relation to Cavtat. But there are other such examples. Many Croatian

13 towns --

14 Q. All right. In paragraph 8 of your statement, you say: "The local

15 community had hitherto dealt with JNA in negotiations, and these

16 negotiations were consistently failing due to lack of trust and breaches

17 by possibly both sides."

18 MS. SOMERS: Objection, Your Honour. Reading from the statement I

19 think is an inappropriate way to ask a question. If there is a question,

20 then perhaps there is a challenge to the statement, but that is not the

21 format we have adopted in this Chamber.

22 JUDGE PARKER: The concern, Mr. Rodic, is that you are simply

23 reading slabs of the statement to the witness. You don't appear to be

24 challenging that or querying it. As you know, there's a more appropriate

25 way to be conducting your examination if you want to have the witness put

Page 5743

1 into evidence something that's in his statement: Simply ignore the

2 statement and go to the issue. Perhaps you could keep that in mind.

3 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. I'm going to

4 rephrase my question.

5 Q. In your opinion, did both sides violate the numerous cease-fire

6 agreements on the territory of Dubrovnik?

7 A. I don't know who exactly, but assumptions can be made. And that's

8 the way I put it there.

9 MS. SOMERS: Objection. It doesn't say violation of numerous

10 cease-fire agreements. And at this point I would ask that counsel follow

11 the evidence. The evidence was that cease-fire agreements had been

12 entered into and that there were violations -- numerous cease-fire

13 agreements, but there were violations. I don't recall that he said

14 "numerous violations."

15 JUDGE PARKER: I don't know what you're getting at, Ms. Somers.

16 We have just persuaded Mr. Rodic to put questions to the witness. He has

17 put a question. He witness will either agree to it or not. Whether it

18 accords with something said earlier is another matter.

19 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this question was

20 preceded by another one: Was the mandate of the witness to come to

21 Dubrovnik to conclude a serious cease-fire agreement, because before that,

22 several cease-fire agreements had been made and violated. And the witness

23 said, while answering that previous question, that he was familiar with

24 that. I simply wanted to make things clearer.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Who violated it and when, I really

Page 5744

1 don't know. But generally speaking, agreements were not being observed.

2 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. All right.

4 Tell me, before you went to Dubrovnik, you said that you talked to

5 Belgrade. Can you tell me exactly who you spoke to in Belgrade when

6 seeking safe passage?

7 A. The office of Admiral Stane Brovet. I asked to speak to him, but

8 I could not get in touch with him, so I spoke probably to the officer who

9 was there.

10 Q. So you did not talk to Admiral Brovet personally?

11 A. I did not.

12 Q. When your safe passage to Dubrovnik was confirmed from the office

13 of Admiral Brovet, did you talk to General Raseta after that?

14 A. No. First I talked to Raseta, then Brovet. Because I wanted to

15 get it in writing, but I never managed to, actually.

16 Q. Did General Raseta also assure you verbally that you would have

17 safe passage?

18 A. Yes. A major spoke to my wife over the telephone and said that my

19 personal safety was guaranteed as well as safe passage in general.

20 Q. Was that the only contact with General Raseta before you went to

21 Dubrovnik? Please just wait for the question to finish.

22 So is that the only contact in relation to safe passage? Was it

23 only this approval given verbally that you can go to Dubrovnik? Was that

24 the situation you refer to when you say that from Raseta's office someone

25 called and spoke to your wife and gave a positive answer that you would

Page 5745

1 have safe passage?

2 A. First, I talked directly to Mr. Raseta himself. And then

3 -- well, he didn't immediately give a very clear answer. I think I

4 actually spoke to him two or three times. But since I could not get a

5 laissez-passer so to speak, then I called Admiral Brovet from Split. And

6 in the evening I even asked General Mladenic and then he conveyed to me

7 that Admiral Kandic was also giving guarantees. Everybody was giving

8 guarantees, but unfortunately, I could not get any confirmation in

9 writing.

10 Q. All right. Tell me, on the 3rd of December 1991, did you ask for

11 approval for the speedboat from the Port Authority carrying you and Cifric

12 and Kriste, so two additional ministers, and also the representatives of

13 the European Community, and your secretary, could travel on the 4th of

14 December, leaving Split at 7.30, from Split to Dubrovnik?

15 A. My secretary was not there, but it's certainly true that we asked

16 for that. So everything you said, with the exception of the secretary.

17 Q. In order to travel with the speedboat, was it Admiral Culic who

18 gave the approval?

19 A. First of all, it was not a speedboat. A speedboat is a boat that

20 moves very fast, of course. But this one didn't really. Well, Culic is a

21 last name from Split, but I'm not sure that that is the last name

22 concerned in this particular case.

23 Q. On the 4th of December, so did you take that boat, Kapetanija, in

24 the morning at 7.00, or rather 5 minutes past 7.00? Is that when you

25 sailed out?

Page 5746

1 A. Well, I don't know whether it was exactly 5 minutes past 7.00 in

2 the morning, but we did leave in the morning.

3 Q. Tell me, when you arrived in Dubrovnik on that boat, did that boat

4 remain in Dubrovnik or was it returned immediately or the following day?

5 Do you remember that?

6 A. I remember. It stayed in Dubrovnik. And it even got hit during

7 the shelling. We returned on that same boat.

8 Q. When?

9 A. The 9th, 10th -- well, five or six days later. That boat was in

10 the harbour of Gruz, waiting for us, and it was hit during the shelling.

11 Some glass was broken.

12 Q. Tell me, and General Raseta, who you contacted when in Zagreb, did

13 he belong to the 5th Military District?

14 A. Yes, I think so. That's the Zagreb district, isn't it?

15 Q. Tell me, please, you mentioned that upon arriving in Dubrovnik,

16 the mayor of Dubrovnik familiarised you with the current situation in

17 Dubrovnik. Is that right?

18 A. Yes. Not only he, but others as well.

19 Q. Can you tell me which city officials spoke to you then?

20 A. We were met by the president of the Assembly, Mr. Poljanic, the

21 president of the Executive Council, Mr. Sikic. So that was the structure

22 that prevailed in the governments in various towns then. Then we went to

23 the city Assembly. Then Lieutenant Colonel Nojko Marinovic came. And

24 then the negotiators were there, too, those who had negotiated with the

25 Yugoslav People's Army; Mr. Obuljen, and another man but I cannot remember

Page 5747

1 his name now. Then Mr. Simonovic was there, too. He was, I think,

2 assistant to Mr. Nojko Marinovic then. And they all reported about the

3 situation, about negotiations with the Yugoslav People's Army, how they

4 had progressed, how far they got, et cetera.

5 Q. Thank you. You said that you had these talks at the city

6 Assembly, and that's where you had your first meeting. Is that the

7 building of the municipal Assembly?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Is that the building in the Old Town?

10 A. Yes, that's the building in the Old Town. Where the City Cafe is,

11 opposite the church, St. Blaise church.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Rodic, is that a convenient time?

13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE PARKER: We'll have a 20-minute break now, which you will

15 probably enjoy, Mr. Rudolf, and we will resume then.

16 --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Rodic.

19 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 MS. SOMERS: I'm sorry, Your Honour. The witness is indicating

21 there's a problem.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Just a moment. We will take these in order.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, allow me to add to

24 one of my previous answers to counsel's questions.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Please go ahead.

Page 5748

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These 20 minutes of break were quite

2 convenient. I had a good Turkish coffee.

3 Counsel asked me about my negotiations with the JNA. I also

4 negotiated at the Isle of Vis with Admiral Jokic. And once again at Vis

5 when General Raseta, Kandic, and Mladenic were present, the negotiations

6 were led by the vice Prime Minister, deputy Prime Minister of the Croatian

7 government, Mr. Granic, and I was attending.

8 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Can you just tell me, those negotiations at the Isle of Vis when

10 Admiral Jokic was present, did he also participate?

11 A. No. Our first negotiations were with Admiral Kandic, who was head

12 of the navy. And the second time, the negotiations were led by Raseta and

13 also present were Admiral Kandic and another person.

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the name.

15 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Can we now move to the 5th of December. You established contact

17 with the naval sector of Boka and agreed to hold a meeting with Admiral

18 Jokic in Cavtat. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you tell us, what was the position of Admiral Jokic at that

21 meeting of the 5th of December? What stances did he advocate on behalf of

22 the JNA?

23 A. We began with my presentation of the views of the Croatian

24 government regarding Dubrovnik and the demands of the Croatian government

25 that I explained in responding-in-chief. His positions were the

Page 5749

1 following: He insisted that armed forces should leave Dubrovnik. He

2 especially emphasised the mercenaries. He said that in that case, the

3 Yugoslav People's Army would withdraw further to the east of Dubrovnik,

4 and we discussed that at length with active participation of Mr. Risto,

5 who is himself a local of Dubrovnik.

6 He talked to the admiral directly. We said that if the JNA should

7 wish to occupy Dubrovnik, there would be many casualties, there would be

8 street fighting. Admiral Jokic gave an assessment of the armed forces,

9 which I believe was unrealistic. He said that we were talking about

10 15.000 soldiers. That was his main position, and he kept repeating it.

11 Later, we started reaching agreement about a number of details, and the

12 first thing we agreed on was a cessation of hostilities.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.

14 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. We will come later to those details. Tell us again about the

16 evaluation of Croatian forces in Dubrovnik. Did you have any information

17 on Croatian troops, Croatian forces in Dubrovnik?

18 A. Yes. Lieutenant Colonel Nojko Marinovic told me what kind of

19 forces we had in Dubrovnik, and that number was much, much smaller,

20 especially if we were talking about those who had real weapons.

21 Q. Were there any cannons, mortars, heavy weapons in Dubrovnik?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Did Lieutenant Colonel Nojko Marinovic tell you anything at all

24 about whether he had any artillery at his disposal?

25 A. No, we didn't discuss it.

Page 5750

1 Q. You made him out to be a real soldier who stood at attention when

2 he spoke to you. Didn't he mention the status of his units, the armed

3 forces he was in command of?

4 A. He described a situation as to where Croatian forces were deployed

5 vis-a-vis the JNA, and frankly speaking, even if you were to tell me

6 something about cannons and guns, I would hardly understand a word. So he

7 did not discuss that with me. As for what you say about the impression

8 that Lieutenant Colonel Marinovic gave me, I would say that I really

9 believed him and that is why I described him the way I did. I wanted to

10 say that he wouldn't have dared to tell me, a minister, something that was

11 untrue.

12 Q. But you were supposed to lead negotiations, and weren't you

13 supposed to get from your chief officer precise numbers of troops,

14 artillery, weapons you had?

15 A. We did not discuss these details at all.

16 Q. Apart from agreeing on a cease-fire on the 5th of December, what

17 else did you agree with Admiral Jokic on in Cavtat?

18 A. We agreed that the JNA would restore water supply, electrical

19 power, that daily services between Dubrovnik and the surrounding populated

20 centres would be restored as well, and we even agreed on the reopening of

21 the Dubrovnik-Split Road. The only thing we failed to reach agreement on

22 was the question of siege or blockade.

23 Q. We'll come to that later. I was intrigued by what you said about

24 the restoration of local transport. Does that mean road and maritime

25 transport equally?

Page 5751

1 A. Agreement was reached on reopening daily services between

2 Dubrovnik and the islands and the road Dubrovnik-Split. That's the road

3 that goes to the west.

4 Q. What about Dubrovnik-Sipan?

5 A. Well, you're asking a lot. I don't know precisely about Sipan.

6 But in agreement -- in principle, we reached an agreement.

7 Q. If I understood you correctly, and I would like you to confirm

8 this, what remained controversial?

9 A. The issue of blockade remained controversial. The admiral said he

10 was not authorised to lift the blockade.

11 Q. Let me interrupt you here. When you say "to lift the blockade,"

12 does that mean that naval ships would no longer be present in the coastal

13 waters of Dubrovnik? Or does it mean something else? Could you clarify.

14 A. When you say "naval" or maritime blockade, that means that naval

15 vessels surround an area and do not allow ships to go through. And when

16 you say to lift the blockade, that implies the removal of those ships that

17 stand in the way of vessels going to Dubrovnik or from Dubrovnik.

18 Q. Could you also explain one other thing to me: After the 7th of

19 December, after an agreement was reached on inspection of ships in the

20 port of Gruz, were there any naval ships remaining in that area around

21 Dubrovnik?

22 A. You mean JNA ships? I don't know, to be honest. But after that,

23 ships had no longer any difficulties sailing into Dubrovnik. After we

24 reached that agreement, even an oil transporter set into the port of

25 Dubrovnik.

Page 5752

1 Q. So before the signing of this agreement, the blockade was

2 complete. And after that, the ships going to and from Dubrovnik were

3 inspected by the vessels of the JNA navy in the open sea?

4 A. Well, it's not exactly the open sea. It's the sea outside the

5 port of Dubrovnik. When there is a blockade, no ships can pass through,

6 and even when we were going to Dubrovnik, we had to approach a naval

7 vessel, an officer would come down, inspect our boat, and allow us to go

8 on.

9 Let me explain why it was an issue, whether the inspection would

10 be done in the port or at sea. It was the month of December --

11 Q. Allow me to interrupt you here. You already explained, talking

12 about the Zelenika vessel. But tell me what you know about this: If the

13 agreement envisaged inspection in the port of Gruz, does that mean that if

14 those ships were passing at sea by naval vessels, the naval vessels did

15 not stop them any longer, as they did before? Instead, ships would be

16 inspected once they arrived in the port of Gruz?

17 A. Yes, exactly. That's how the inspection was done. JNA officers

18 would go up on to the ships that had set in and inspect them.

19 Q. So on the 5th of December, the only outstanding issue that

20 remained was whether inspection would be done at sea or in the port of

21 Gruz?

22 A. Yes. That was the issue of blockade, because I insisted that if

23 they could lift the blockade completely, that would be the best of all.

24 Q. So in your opinion, what does your demand to lift the blockade

25 mean? What would that imply?

Page 5753

1 A. That would mean the removal of naval ships blocking entry into

2 port. After the agreement that we reached, all the other navy ships were

3 removed and only those blocking entry into the port of Dubrovnik remained.

4 They remained there to control inspection of incoming traffic.

5 Q. Tell me now exactly what you agreed and what you signed. Did you

6 agree on a complete lift of the blockade, or did you sign and implement an

7 agreement that passenger traffic should not be controlled at sea, but

8 instead should be controlled in the port of Gruz?

9 A. We reached an agreement only on the latter.

10 Q. Regarding this control and inspection of vessels that remained

11 controversial on the 5th of December, Admiral Jokic said that he had to

12 consult the Supreme Command, didn't he?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. During the negotiations, since the other issues were no longer a

15 problem, such as the cease-fire, the reopening of roads, and the

16 restoration of daily services, did you understand it to mean that the

17 implementation of the agreement could start immediately?

18 A. Yes. The first point was the most important to us, and I

19 understood that we could start implementing immediately.

20 Q. And you were only awaiting for the confirmation to be received by

21 Admiral Jokic from the Supreme Command regarding the inspection of ships?

22 A. Yes, and that's why we agreed to meet again the next day at 10.00

23 in Cavtat and signed an agreement.

24 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I'd

25 like to show this witness Exhibit P61, tab 29, concerning Witness Hvalkof.

Page 5754

1 Sorry. Just a minute, with your leave, Your Honour.

2 Q. Mr. Rudolf, did the representatives of the European Community

3 Monitoring Mission accompany you on the 5th of December to Cavtat?

4 A. I'm not sure.

5 Q. But most importantly, do you remember if they were present at the

6 negotiations between yourself and Admiral Jokic?

7 A. I'm sure about the 7th of December, the second day, but I'm not

8 sure about the first time.

9 Q. But tell me about the meeting of the 5th of December. After that

10 meeting, did you inform the representative of the ECMM about the results

11 of the negotiations?

12 A. I did. Not only him, but the people of Dubrovnik and everyone

13 concerned.

14 Q. I heard that. Please look at this exhibit of the Prosecution.

15 It's a note written by the deputy chief of the regional centre of

16 Dubrovnik, Mr. Per Hvalkof, to whom you referred earlier. He made a note

17 here regarding what you conveyed to him after the meeting in Cavtat.

18 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] If the English version could be put on

19 the ELMO, please, so that the Trial Chamber could follow as well.

20 Q. Please look at point 3, where it says: "Mr. Rudolf said that the

21 following subjects were discussed: (A), an unconditional cease-fire." Is

22 this correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. "(B), reduction of the number of troops on both sides to be

25 inspected by a joint military commission. (D), lifting the blockade of

Page 5755

1 the Dubrovnik port with the JNA officers in mufti inspecting cargo in the

2 port with a reference to the European monitors. This issue has not been

3 resolved. Would be taken up again tomorrow." Is that correct?

4 A. Yes, in principle.

5 Q. And "(E), reopening of access roads to Dubrovnik, especially the

6 Adriatic highway or main road." Is this correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Please look at another document from P61, tab 35.

9 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I would like that document to be shown

10 to the witness now.

11 Q. Mr. Rudolf, this is the letter that Admiral Jokic sent to you on

12 the 6th of December. Is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. We are going to go back to this letter in detail later on, but I'm

15 interested in these proposals that he is presenting to you as the agenda

16 for the meeting on the 7th of December, upon his return from Belgrade.

17 Paragraph 2 says: "To accept our agreement concerning the

18 cease-fire in the entire zone of Dubrovnik all the way up to Ston." Is

19 that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You already agreed to that on the 5th of December, didn't you?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. Paragraph 3: "To establish a regular shuttle between

24 Cavtat-Dubrovnik, Zaton, Mokosica-Zaton, and twice a week from Dubrovnik

25 to the islands." Is that right?

Page 5756

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was this also agreed on the 5th of December?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Paragraph 4, this is a novelty in relation to what you discussed

5 on the 5th of December. Now Admiral Jokic is proposing that ships be

6 examined in Gruz harbour. Is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Paragraph 6 says: "To open road communications from town,

9 including the roads to Ston." Was that agreed upon on the 5th of

10 December, too?

11 A. Yes, that's the Adriatic road, the main Adriatic road.

12 Q. He repeats under paragraph 7 his proposal to deblock the town

13 completely and to withdraw the weapons that jeopardise the town out of

14 shooting range and also that armed men who came to town be evacuated with

15 the first vessel. Is that what he advocated on the 5th?

16 A. Yes, that is roughly his position of the 5th.

17 Q. But on the 5th of December, you discussed it and no agreement was

18 reached in terms of the withdrawal of any forces from Dubrovnik.

19 A. Not from Dubrovnik.

20 Q. So is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask that the

23 witness be shown P162, tab 3. That is from the binder for Witness Rudolf.

24 So P162. This is the radio log.

25 Could the entire radio log be given to the witness, please.

Page 5757

1 Q. Mr. Rudolf --

2 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher,

3 actually, to place the English version on the ELMO and to put the

4 appropriate pages as I mention them.

5 Q. Mr. Rudolf, could you please look at page number 1, the upper

6 left-hand corner. It starts with "The 5th of December..." The text

7 starts with "The 5th of December..." And the page is number 1. Have you

8 found that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Please look at the last time referred to on that page, 0855.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. That is the message sent to the naval district. It's supposed to

13 say "sector," though, the Boka sector. Is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Please look at page 2 now.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. It says that as regards the 6th of December, a team is mentioned,

18 a number of persons who would be there, a sanitation expert, Gailland, and

19 two engineers from the Dubrovnik water management company, one for

20 machines and one for electrical installations. And on the following day,

21 the 6th of December 1991, they would go to Komolac, inspect the pump

22 station there. Can you see that?

23 A. Well, it's a bit illegible. But yes, yes, all right. I can

24 follow you now.

25 Q. Further on, an explanation is given as to how this meeting would

Page 5758

1 evolve in relation to the repair of the pump station in Komolac, that the

2 regular ship line would be taken from Dubrovnik to Mokosica. Is that

3 right?

4 A. That's what's written here, yes.

5 Q. Could you now please look at page 7 of this log, that is. The

6 time that you're supposed to look at is 1715. It's towards the bottom of

7 the page.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Is that also a message sent to the command of VPS Boka?

10 A. Just a minute, please. To the Boka VPS command. Yes.

11 Q. It says "pursuant to the agreement signed today with

12 representatives of the government of the Republic of Croatia, we propose

13 that tomorrow at 0900 hours, the Arka, marked with a Red Cross flag,

14 leave the port of Gruz with humanitarian aid for the island of Sipan with

15 stops in the ports of Sucurac and the port of Sipan," if I manage to read

16 this properly.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Look to the end of the message. Was this message sent by the

19 municipal Crisis Staff?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I would now like to ask you to move on to page 9 and to look at

22 1805, please.

23 A. 1905, you mean?

24 Q. Well, yes, then 1905. I'm not sure whether it's 1805 or 1905. It

25 says: "For the Crisis Staff of Dubrovnik from the VPS Boka." Is that

Page 5759

1 right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. It says: "We cannot grant your request for introducing a ship

4 line from Sipan to Dubrovnik and back and for starting work on the water

5 pump in Komolac proposed for the 6th of December 1991, nor can we

6 guarantee the safety of the ship and people. We express our readiness to

7 have these issues agreed upon soon, which will primarily depend on the

8 results of the negotiations in Cavtat in December 1991." Signed, VPS

9 Boka. Is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Tell me now, why does VPS Boka not allow the pump in Komolac to be

12 prepared? Why does it not allow this maritime traffic from Dubrovnik to

13 Sipan? And you said that that was agreed upon on the 5th of December and

14 that there was no disagreement between you.

15 A. You have to ask them about it, not me.

16 Q. Don't you find that strange?

17 A. These are local negotiations. So you see, I don't even know about

18 this. I'm not even aware of these details. You see, they say that it

19 would be resolved tomorrow, on the 6th of December. This is around 7.00.

20 Well, no, no.

21 Q. At 1905 on the 5th of December, it says that these requests

22 regarding the repair of the water pump in Komolac and this boat traffic

23 will primarily hinge on the negotiations on the 6th of December, and they

24 were not conducted by anyone else but Admiral Jokic. Isn't that right?

25 A. Yes, and I don't find any of this to be strange. I don't see what

Page 5760

1 you find strange.

2 Q. It is strange if you say that on the 5th of December, apart from

3 the examination of vessels in the port of Gruz, you agreed everything else

4 with Admiral Jokic, and I put all of this in detail. This would make it

5 seem that the admiral or the VPS Boka does not allow what you agreed upon

6 on the 5th of December.

7 A. Now, whether the admiral informed all the units down there that

8 quickly is something I don't know. I don't know about all the things that

9 happened down there. We could not even establish a cease-fire at 11.00

10 because, as I was told, not everybody could be notified by then. So I

11 don't find any of this to be strange.

12 Q. All right. I would now like to ask you, while you still have the

13 log in front of you, to look at page 7. The time is 1445 hours. It is

14 sent to the Boka VPS.

15 A. What did you say? 14 what?

16 Q. 1440.

17 A. Oh, I see. So --

18 Q. It is addressed to Boka VPS. It says: "We protest yet again

19 against small arms fire that was directed against the Lapad area from the

20 Laski Brijeg area at 1450 hours on December 5th 1991." Can you explain

21 this to me, because you said that the Port Authority was under you, as

22 minister for maritime affairs. What does this mean when it says

23 "time 1440 hours" and in the message it says that 1450 would be the future

24 time, so to speak?

25 A. I don't know. But see, you talk about these details. Do you

Page 5761

1 really think that Admiral Jokic informed all the lower level units in

2 Komolac and about the repair of this electricity there?

3 Q. Mr. Rudolf, we've dealt with that part of the question when we

4 looked at all these other things. But this is a new thing I would like to

5 deal with.

6 A. What are you asking me about? "We protest yet again against

7 small-arms fire from the Laski Brijeg area directed against the Lapad area

8 at 1450 hours."

9 Q. I'm only interested in the following. This is 1440 --

10 A. And then it says 1450.

11 Q. Yes. Referring to the future, as it were. Gunfire that occurs at

12 1450 on the 5th of December.

13 A. I agree with you that it doesn't tally.

14 Q. Please look at page 15 now. Problems of the same nature, as far

15 as I'm concerned. It is the last item on that page, 1128 hours. 1128

16 hours.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. This is already the 6th of December. And this is a message for

19 VPO Boka for Admiral Jokic.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Please look at page 16.

22 A. All right.

23 Q. You say --

24 A. That we cannot get into the street, and then they inform me.

25 Q. Yes. And now please look at page 17. It is still the same

Page 5762

1 message. Please look at the middle of the sentence that says "Now it is

2 1210, and occasional gunfire is still coming from Zarkovica." Have you

3 found that? It's on page 17.

4 A. 1210, yes.

5 Q. And the signature bears the name of Davorin Rudolf. Is that

6 right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you explain this to me: The message is at 1128, and reference

9 is made to 1210. It's as if you were saying it's 1210 now and there is

10 gunfire coming from Zarkovica.

11 A. I cannot explain. But this is authentic. I actually wrote this.

12 Q. You mean it's your handwriting?

13 A. I'm referring to the time -- the content, actually. The content

14 is correct.

15 Q. You have no explanation for these differences in time?

16 A. I don't.

17 Q. I would now like to ask you to look at page 7. Again, we've come

18 to the message at 1445. It is still the 5th of December 1991.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In that message, does it say that the Crisis Staff of the

21 Municipality of Dubrovnik claims that there was no cause given by our side

22 for this incident, as far as this individual gunfire is concerned?

23 A. Yes, that is what it says here.

24 Q. Did the JNA lodge a protest when the Crisis Staff claims that

25 there was no cause given from their side?

Page 5763

1 A. I don't know. I haven't seen this. This is probably the first

2 time I'm reading this. I don't know.

3 Q. On the 5th of December, were you informed of some protest lodged

4 by the JNA?

5 A. You're asking me a lot. I don't know. I really cannot answer

6 with any certainty. The Yugoslav People's Army did not protest, as far as

7 I know.

8 Q. Please look at page 11 now. And the time is 0855. Or rather,

9 0955, I'm sorry. It is the last time marked on that page.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So this is a message for you.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. From the Boka VPS.

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. And it says "We are making enormous efforts to stop the clashes

16 caused by shooting from Srdj and Lapad. We ask you to intervene

17 immediately to stop this clash at 1115 hours today." And then a meeting

18 is proposed.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The signature, VPS Boka. Is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Since this is the 6th of December, is the VPS Boka lodging a

23 protest with you there, stating that the clash occurred because gunfire

24 was opened from Srdj and Lapad, and they seek your intervention in order

25 to stop the fire coming from there?

Page 5764

1 A. Yes, that's what is written here. This is at 9.55. The

2 cease-fire agreement was supposed to come into force at 11.15. In the

3 meantime, there was fighting. In the fighting, of course, the people of

4 Dubrovnik fought as best they could. The cease-fire was not in force yet.

5 But I can tell you that all the messages that I received from the Military

6 Naval Sector of Boka, I checked all of them immediately. I would

7 telephone and ask, "What's going on?" "Is that the way things are?"

8 "Please be careful."

9 Q. All right. Please look at page 12 now.

10 A. I have it.

11 Q. The time 10.20. You signed this. It says: "We accept a strict

12 cease-fire as of 11.15."

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. "For practical reasons, we cannot come to the meeting by 1200, so

15 we propose that the meeting be held at 1330 hours or as soon as possible."

16 So that's your answer in response to the previous message. Is that right?

17 A. Well, yes, probably.

18 Q. Are you giving any comments here regarding allegations of fire

19 from Lapad and Srdj?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you, through the municipal staff or Lieutenant Colonel Nojko

22 Marinovic, take any steps following the proposal of the Boka Naval Sector

23 to prevent or stop further fire from Srdj or Lapad?

24 A. The cease-fire hadn't entered into force. Look at the time.

25 Q. It was 10.55, and it was supposed to enter into force --

Page 5765

1 A. At 11.15.

2 Q. Do you mean to say that it was allowed to go on firing until that

3 time?

4 A. Yes, to both sides.

5 Q. Could you please look at page 12 again. Time 10.20.

6 THE INTERPRETER: 10.27, interpreter's correction.

7 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one correction. On

8 page 50, line 21, my question was "10.55" in the transcript, and I said

9 10.20, as written in the radio log. If that correction could be made,

10 please.

11 Q. Mr. Rudolf, so the time is 10.27 on page 12 of this radio log.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. It's a message addressed to you by Admiral Jokic who is asking

14 Mr. Davorin Rudolf, minister, to come as soon as possible because "I am

15 late for pressing previous engagements of official nature." Did you

16 receive this message?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. Just allow me to finish. At 10.27, it says here, the message is

19 addressed to you, if I'm not mistaken, until that time, until 10.27, that

20 is, by that time you had telephoned Admiral Jokic twice already.

21 A. Yes --

22 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me, Your Honour. To correct the record,

23 please, if it is being read from the log, on page 12 in the English, at he

24 bottom it says: "For D. Rudolf - Admiral Jokic asks Mr. D. Rudolf to

25 come to the meeting as soon as possible because later the admiral has

Page 5766

1 pressing official engagements." It does not mention "previous."

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

3 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Rudolf, so by 10.27 when you received this urgent message from

5 the admiral, you had already had those two telephone conversations with

6 him you testified to.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In those telephone conversations, did the admiral tell you

9 anything about his official obligations or engagements?

10 A. No.

11 Q. This time, 10.27, did you know at that time what was that pressing

12 official engagement he had?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 Look, please, at page 13. This is your answer to Admiral Jokic,

16 your reply to his earlier message.

17 A. You mean at 10.45.

18 Q. Yes, 10.45.

19 A. Yes, that's my reply.

20 Q. You say the cease-fire is accepted, has been accepted as of 11.15.

21 A. Yes, I can see that, right there below.

22 Q. Now, look, please, at page 14, time 11.05.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. This is another message addressed to the Boka Naval Sector, and it

25 is signed on page 15 by the municipal Crisis Staff of Dubrovnik. Right?

Page 5767

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Look at the bottom of page 14 now. There's a sentence that reads:

3 "The Defence Forces of the Republic of Croatia responded only after the

4 infantry and tanks came within 200 metres of Srdj." 200 metres of Srdj.

5 Did you, since you were in touch both with the Crisis Staff and

6 with the Lieutenant Colonel Nojko Marinovic, have any information to that

7 effect that morning?

8 A. We had received information that battles had begun up there on

9 Srdj Hill, and at one point, Nojko Marinovic told me that the troops had

10 even entered the Srdj fortress.

11 Q. After that sentence on page 14, it goes on to say: "We deny

12 carrying out any acts of provocation or activities from Srdj and Lapad

13 that would have been cause for the cease-fire violations."

14 The municipal Crisis Staff seems to be denying these actions

15 emanating from Srdj and Lapad. And when we were reading the message from

16 10.27, you said that it was allowed to go on firing from Srdj and Lapad

17 before 11.15.

18 A. You see, Dubrovnik was defending itself as best it could, as best

19 it was able, until the beginning of cease-fire.

20 Q. I understand that. I'm just asking you -- or rather, I'm going to

21 ask you if you see any discrepancy between this message of the Crisis

22 Staff and the previous message of 10.57, because in this one the Crisis

23 Staff is denying.

24 A. What are you driving at? What do you find odd about this?

25 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, 10.57, I don't see a reference to a

Page 5768

1 10.57. And if in fact it is 10.20 --

2 MR. RODIC: It is 10.27.

3 MS. SOMERS: The record says 10.57, and just to make clear what is

4 said, which I think the transcript picked up as "cease-fire was accepted

5 at 11.15," then "... has been accepted as at 11.15," what it in fact says

6 on page 12 for the 10.27 -- sorry, page 13, which is actually 10.45, it

7 says "The proposal for a cease-fire as of 11.15 hours has been accepted,"

8 just to make sure the record is straight as to what is said.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

10 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Let us move on, Mr. Rudolf. Look at page 15, please, of this

12 radio log. The time is 11.28. It's at the bottom of the page.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. It's a message addressed to Admiral Jokic by you.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is it correct that for the first time in this message reference is

17 made to the shelling of the Old Town? It's on page 16.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. It says: "The Old Town was shelled. Fires can be observed in

20 several places." The time was 11.28. By that time, you had two telephone

21 conversations, and you had already exchanged similar messages by radio.

22 Is this the first time that you are mentioning to Admiral Jokic the Old

23 Town, at 11.28?

24 A. When I mentioned Dubrovnik, I meant the parts of Dubrovnik inside

25 and outside the Old Town. I wrote here about the bombing of the old part

Page 5769

1 of the town because we were able to see it from Hotel Argentina. We were

2 able to have a partial view. We couldn't see what was going on behind us,

3 where there were some explosions, so when I made reference to Dubrovnik, I

4 meant both the Old Town and the other parts.

5 Q. I understand that. What I want to know is that by 11.28, or

6 before 11.28, did you put a special emphasis on the Old Town? Did you

7 make special reference to it?

8 A. No, I didn't think it was necessary.

9 Q. Tell me, if you can remember, between 8.00 and 9.00, 9.30, on the

10 6th of December 1991, did you have those two telephone conversations with

11 Admiral Jokic and his ADC?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When you first got him on the phone and spoke to his ADC, he told

14 you that he did not believe there was shelling.

15 A. It's not that he didn't believe it; he said: "We are not

16 attacking Dubrovnik."

17 Q. All right. So then you turned away the receiver for him to hear

18 the sounds.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did he then hang up or what?

21 A. No, he said he was going to get the general on the phone when he

22 heard the sounds.

23 Q. So after a while, you re-established the connection?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And then you spoke directly to Admiral Jokic?

Page 5770

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you tell us exactly what you told him.

3 A. I told him the same thing. I told him we had agreed on a

4 cease-fire yesterday, and you are firing again. And I turned away the

5 receiver again. He was a bit breathless and -- in fact, you're asking me

6 what I told him. I told him that they were shelling Dubrovnik despite our

7 agreement of the day before. And to that, he replied, if I remember well,

8 that it was not being done on their orders, that it was preposterous, that

9 it was mad. And he apologised.

10 You have to understand the situation as it was. All I cared about

11 was to have that cease-fire in place. He told me that we should come to

12 Cavtat, and we were unable to get into the street in the first place.

13 What mattered most was goodwill that was necessary for that cease-fire.

14 Q. Again, about that 6th of December, did you spend all that day in

15 Hotel Argentina?

16 A. Yes, all the time.

17 Q. Were the ECMM monitors with you all the time?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you see Mr. Hvalkof there?

20 A. I'm not sure.

21 Q. Can you tell me, you described the view you had from Hotel

22 Argentina of the Old Town. In the course of the 6th of December, did you

23 hear or see any action of the Croatian forces from the territory of

24 Dubrovnik?

25 A. The entire city. It was fighting, you see. We were in the hotel

Page 5771

1 all that time. The hotel faced the sea. All we could see was the sea and

2 the shells flying. They were shelling the Old Town, the ramparts, and we

3 could hear the gunfire. Some shells were falling on the hotel and on the

4 annex building we were in. It was logical to assume that there was some

5 fire opened from the Croatian side as well, but how and where from

6 exactly, we couldn't see from our position.

7 Q. In all that racket, the noise of shelling, gunfire, you could not

8 distinguish between fire, the sounds of fire from one side and the other?

9 A. No, I wasn't.

10 Q. Did the local -- did the local media and the local population of

11 Dubrovnik with whom you were in contact say that the JNA was opening fire

12 on Dubrovnik from its ships as well?

13 A. No.

14 Q. On the 6th of December?

15 A. No.

16 Q. In paragraph 21 of your statement, you say: "Despite widespread

17 reports of the local media and claims of the population, I did not see JNA

18 vessels firing on the Old Town. I did not see any JNA boats."

19 A. That came later. In the media when I read the reports, people had

20 very different views often it. People saw it very differently. Some said

21 that fire was opened from the sea as well. But I did not see anything of

22 the kind.

23 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] If I can just have a minute.

24 Exhibit P61, tab 32. I would like to show that document to the

25 witness. Again, from Witness Hvalkof.

Page 5772

1 THE INTERPRETER: No microphone for the counsel.

2 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Here we see a message that should be forwarded to the naval sector

4 Boka command, a radiogram. "We strongly protest against the absolutely

5 unprovoked strong artillery fire this morning at 0550 hours from the

6 sector of Strincjera and Dubrava on the Srdj feature, and tank mortar and

7 ship artillery fire on Dubrovnik." Signed by the Dubrovnik Crisis Staff,

8 dated 6th December 1991, with indications of all the addressees.

9 A. In my opinion, this is not correct, especially this last part, the

10 types of fire originating from vessels, if they mean from the sea.

11 Q. Yes. In this protest of the Crisis Staff, they specify artillery

12 fire opened from ships.

13 A. Yes. As far as I know, there was no such fire opened from the

14 sea.

15 Q. Do you know everything?

16 A. Is there anyone who knows everything? First of all, I would have

17 seen it because we were facing the sea at the time. Second, I'm

18 absolutely -- I'm sure that I would have been informed. You see, there

19 are all sorts of interpretations and reports. I read some of them

20 concerning the role of Admiral Jokic.

21 Q. Do you see to whom this document was sent?

22 A. The European Mission.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel and witness are speaking at the same

24 time.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] ECMM, including Davorin Rudolf.

Page 5773

1 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Did you receive this notification?

3 A. Sir, do you know what hell is? Dubrovnik was hell. Fire was all

4 around us. We couldn't see what was falling where. I personally did not

5 see ships attacking Dubrovnik. Whether anyone else felt it or assumed it,

6 I don't know.

7 Q. I'm interested to know, did this message reach you? Because it

8 was addressed to you.

9 A. In the hell that reigned there, it went unnoticed by me.

10 Q. Tell me, on that day, the 6th of December 1991, did you have any

11 contacts with the members of the Dubrovnik Crisis Staff by phone or did

12 you see them personally?

13 A. Not with the members. But I was in touch with Poljanic and with

14 some representatives. I don't know which members of the Crisis Staff were

15 there. And of course, with the command.

16 Q. Give us some names, please.

17 A. I spoke most frequently with Poljanic. Did I mention Mladenic?

18 When I say I was in touch, you should understand that all the three

19 ministers in my group were in touch with those people. Everything we did,

20 we did together.

21 Q. So on the 6th of December, you contacted people from the Crisis

22 Staff?

23 A. They were in the Old Town, we were in the Hotel Argentina. We

24 were unable to go out, to leave the hotel.

25 Q. I understand all this.

Page 5774

1 A. So all that was said was said on the phone.

2 Q. I have to remind you again, because we are being reminded again,

3 to make pauses between questions and answers because we're speaking fast.

4 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I won't be needing this

5 document again.

6 And now, with the usher's assistance, P61, tab 30, please.

7 Q. Mr. Rudolf, you have before you a Prosecution exhibit. This is a

8 log sheet related to the 6th of December. And this is a type of diary

9 that was kept by Mr. Per Hvalkof from the European Community. Could you

10 please look at the time of 0600 hours.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you read it.

13 A. "Shelling from land and sea towards the fortress close to the TV

14 tower Srdj and the harbour commenced."

15 Q. At this particular point in time in the log sheet, does

16 Mr. Hvalkof say that shelling commenced from land and sea?

17 A. Yes, that is what he says. I was telling you about my

18 impressions. If you want to check this out exactly, you have the man

19 behind you. Ask him.

20 Q. Unfortunately, he was not there either, so I cannot ask him

21 either.

22 A. Well, they certainly know whether they targeted Dubrovnik from

23 land and sea.

24 Q. What I want to ask you is --

25 A. I really did not see any ships and nobody told me about any ships.

Page 5775

1 Q. I understand because of the situation, because of everything that

2 you told us about the 6th of December, how you felt and the position and

3 the Hotel Argentina where you were, and also your confirmation that you

4 could not see everything that was going on on that particular day. Isn't

5 that right? And I also put the protest letter of the Crisis Staff to you,

6 and now I've shown you Mr. Hvalkof's log sheet. Do you allow for this

7 possibility, that perhaps you did not see it but that ships were actually

8 in action?

9 A. I did not see that. Look, were you ever at the Argentina Hotel?

10 Well, since you know, it's on the eastern side of Dubrovnik. This is

11 practically where the town of Dubrovnik starts. And we saw the sea right

12 in front of us, so if a ship had passed by, it would have to pass by the

13 hotel, in front of the hotel. We would have to see it. I'm just telling

14 you about what I know, what I saw, and I cannot assert anything else.

15 Q. Tell me, now, let's explain this: Could you see from the hotel

16 the harbour of Gruz?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Could you see the top of the sea from Babin Kuk onwards?

19 A. Sir, as for the harbour of Gruz, the JNA ships could not have

20 reached them without passing in front of the Argentina Hotel. Well, I

21 don't know.

22 Q. Is there anything else you wanted to say? Did you wake up around

23 7.00?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. Is it possible that this happened before you woke up?

Page 5776

1 A. Sir --

2 MS. SOMERS: Objection, speculative. I think the question was

3 asked and answered a number of times as to what he really saw or believed

4 to have seen.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, Mr. Rodic.

6 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Let us proceed, Mr. Rudolf. I would like to ask you to look at

8 this log sheet again. The time of 0920 hours.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. It says here: "Minister Rudolf spoke to Admiral Jokic's

11 secretary. Promised meeting scheduled for 11.00 at Cavtat." Does this

12 note reflect the messages, more or less, the ones hat we read out earlier

13 on from the logbook of the Port Authority?

14 A. Well, I did not talk to a secretary, a female secretary. It was a

15 man. But this is wrong. This is a misinterpretation. It's not 11.00.

16 The meeting's not 11.00.

17 Q. All right.

18 A. Yes, well, you know, I don't know everything.

19 Q. Could you please look at the next page and the time of 11.10.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. "Minister Rudolf speaks to Zagreb. The message from the naval

22 base in Boka Kotorska, JNA will cease-fire at 1115 hours. A meeting in

23 Cavtat is planned for 1330 hours." Does this note reflect the situation

24 that we saw from the Port Authority logbook?

25 A. It reflects the facts, and also it says here "God willing."

Page 5777

1 Q. Please look at 1203: "Machine-gun fire near the hotel from the

2 Croatian side - artillery active again, sporadic." So by the hotel that

3 you were staying at, did you hear any gunfire opened at close range?

4 A. No. Which hotel does he mean anyway?

5 Q. The Argentina Hotel.

6 A. No.

7 Q. On the 6th of December, did you see Mr. Hvalkof at the Argentina

8 Hotel? Did you contact him?

9 A. I'm not sure. You know, there were quite a few people there.

10 Everybody was downstairs. Everybody who was at the hotel. And now, who

11 all the people were...

12 Q. Please, look at 1410 hours. That's on the next page. "Minister

13 Rudolf informed me that he wrote a proposal of the agreement."

14 A. I cannot find that. 1410?

15 Q. Yes. 1330 until 1400, and then it says 1430 --

16 A. Just a moment, please. I got the pages wrong. What did you say?

17 1410? What does it say?

18 Possibly. Possibly. Now, to tell you the truth, I cannot

19 remember now whether it was that particular conversation.

20 Q. Please look at 1430. "Minister Rudolf receives message from

21 Admiral Jokic who apologises for the shelling and informs that it is out

22 of JNA control."

23 A. Yes. But look, 1430, that's not the time when I got the message

24 from the admiral. It's probably when I told him. You see, these men in

25 white were there, as we call them, the representative of the United

Page 5778

1 Nations, et cetera. Now, whether I talked to him personally or not, I

2 really don't know. But here he says that I did, so I probably told him

3 this. As you can see, he encouraged me in terms of the negotiations.

4 Have you read this sentence?

5 Q. Yes, yes.

6 A. Can I read it?

7 Q. Please look at the time of 1610 on the last page.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. It says: "Only a few shells since 1600 hours. Minister Rudolf

10 tells me that General Strugar has ordered immediate cease-fire. However,

11 sporadic shells still fall." By 1610, as recorded here, did you have any

12 contact with General Strugar?

13 A. No, I don't think these times are correct. I really would have to

14 check. I received a radiogram from General Strugar only at 4.30, or

15 perhaps this should be checked. So you see, these times are not correct.

16 But I did receive a radiogram from General Strugar who said that he

17 ordered a cease-fire. I think that the Prosecution showed me this

18 radiogram.

19 Q. We'll get to that document, too.

20 Please look at 1914. It says: "See note at 1610. Translation

21 and copy of General Strugar's message sent to the regional centre of

22 Split." Could that be the radiogram of General Strugar?

23 A. That is the first and only one I got from General Strugar. After

24 that, I answered him in the evening, but then you know that.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 5779

1 A. You're welcome.

2 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] We no longer need this document. I

3 would like to ask for P61, tab 27 and tab 36.

4 Q. As for the document that is before you, it is also a Prosecution

5 exhibit which was tendered during the testimony of Witness Hvalkof. I

6 would just like to ask you to look at the last sentence in the second

7 paragraph. "The Croatian government issued strict instructions to the

8 authorities in Dubrovnik not to hand over their weapons." Does that

9 accurately reflect the position of the Croatian government?

10 A. I think so, yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Could we please look at the next document, now.

12 Do you have it in front of you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The radiogram.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Please, then. Does it say here "Radiogram from the Boka VPS for

17 the Dubrovnik Crisis Staff"?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. For Mr. Davorin Rudolf, minister.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Tell me, we saw from the previous questions during this discussion

22 of ours, we used the radio log of the Port Authority. Isn't that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. This radiogram connection was established between the Port

25 Authority and the Military Naval Sector of Boka?

Page 5780

1 A. No.

2 Q. Since I'm a layman, you explained this coastal radio --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. -- of Dubrovnik, or rather the Port Authority. Do you know, how

5 does it function and with who? Is it a pure radio communication or what?

6 A. Yes, it was the only possible communication at that time because

7 there was nothing else. This is radio communication with ships, and to

8 tell you the truth, I really don't know where this was, the radiogram. Or

9 rather, I don't know where he was, in what town and how this link was

10 established.

11 Q. Another question I have for you, being a layman myself, when it

12 says "radiogram," is that communication by way of speaking? Is it two

13 speakers who converse, or is there any written trace of this?

14 A. Yes, of course, you can speak. But this is in writing. So it can

15 be done in writing and verbally. To put it in lay terms, it is both a fax

16 and a telephone, so to speak.

17 Q. To when it says "radiogram," that is --

18 A. It does not relate to speech, because then it would be

19 radio-communication, you see. This is written, gram, you see, radiogram.

20 Q. And what kind of equipment is used for this kind of correspondence

21 by way of radiogram?

22 A. They have special equipment for receiving and transmitting these

23 radiograms. Well, look, I'm not a technical person but it's a type of

24 fax. Nowadays, there are all sorts of wondrous things that exist.

25 Q. During the course of the 6th of December, did you receive any

Page 5781

1 other radiogram in which General Strugar was mentioned to you?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Please look at --

4 A. I think the answer is no.

5 Q. Please look at the time. You see before you these different

6 markings. They are probably fax markings underneath the text. It says

7 "monitors, Dubrovnik, 6th December, 1714."

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And further up, above the radiogram, you have "1914" as the time.

10 And then there is a telephone number, 38 --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please slow down. The

12 interpreters do not have the text or the number.

13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. So would 58 be right for Split?

15 A. It says remote here "3858" -- what was it that you said?

16 Q. Would that be the number -- or rather, is the area code for Split,

17 or was the area code for Split at the time 058?

18 A. It is 021 now. I don't know what it was then. It is possible

19 that it was 058. You know, it's hard for me to say now how they did it.

20 Q. Obviously, this document was sent on two faxes at least.

21 A. I don't know really. I really don't know. I did not even check

22 this. It was the text that really mattered to me.

23 Q. All right. Could you please keep this document in front of you.

24 And now I would like to ask you to look at the radio log again. And let's

25 compare something.

Page 5782

1 A. Let's.

2 Q. The radio log, page 22, please.

3 Please look at page 22 and look at the time, the last number that

4 is entered. Is it 1440, this time here, 1440?

5 A. Yes, round that.

6 Q. So it's around 1400 hours, isn't it?

7 A. Well, somebody changed this. I guess it's like that.

8 Q. Oh, somebody changed it.

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. Message for the Crisis Staff of Dubrovnik, and it says: "Our

11 forces ceased firing on all parts of Dubrovnik at 1115 hours." As far

12 back as 1115 hours. "We absolutely reject the possibility of our troops

13 firing at the said time, especially on the Old Town. Boka VPS Command."

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Please look at that and compare it to the radiogram, the one that

18 you have before you. It also continues at 1550 in the radio log. So the

19 message is identical in the radio log and in this document that is before

20 you. "JNA forces this morning were attacked from Srdj and Babin Kuk

21 without any cause. Our forces responded by gunfire, but on my orders the

22 units stopped fire at 11.15. But your forces did not respect this

23 cease-fire. And therefore it can be concluded that the buildings in the

24 old part of Dubrovnik are being damaged by fire coming from your forces."

25 Except for this last part, the last part of the sentence when it says what

Page 5783

1 is damaging buildings in the old nucleus of Dubrovnik, at the beginning of

2 the message, is it similar to that which is mentioned at 1440 from the

3 Boka VPS? Because the time of cease-fire is referred to and how it

4 happened, et cetera.

5 A. I agree that the only thing that is said and that is the same is

6 the cease-fire of 11.15. But this text here at 14-whatever, there is no

7 reference to attacks being made without cause.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Rodic, I'm afraid we're going to run out of

9 time on the tape. So I've let you go on because you seem to be following

10 a clear lead, but we'll have to have the second break now and then we'll

11 carry on.

12 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.

13 --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 6.00 p.m.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Rodic.

16 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 May I ask that the witness be shown Exhibit P61, tab 33.

18 Q. Are you tired, Mr. Rudolf?

19 A. Yes. You see, there's no more coffee.

20 Q. We'll try to bring to this an end today, if we can.

21 You have in front of you a Prosecution exhibit, which is a letter

22 dated 6th December that you addressed to General Strugar. Is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. That letter has to do with the radiogram we reviewed a moment ago.

Page 5784

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. If you would kindly look at paragraph three from the top, you say

3 that you arrived to Dubrovnik and Cavtat with two members of the

4 government of the Republic of Croatia because you received guarantees from

5 the Supreme Command of the armed forces of the SFRY and the command of the

6 VPO, the naval district of Split, for a safe and unhindered trip to the

7 negotiations with representatives of the Yugoslav Army in Cavtat.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In paragraph 2, you say "I'm writing all this, General, because of

10 your radiogram because you said that the Croatian forces set fire to

11 Dubrovnik." Did this radiogram irritate you so much that you had to write

12 the letter to General Strugar, since the radiogram was signed by him, or

13 rather, his name was on the radiogram?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You invited the general to come to Dubrovnik, and: "To be

16 informed by" -- and you say, rather, "the Minister of Defence, General

17 Kadijevic, ordered an investigation into the damage or destruction

18 inflicted on Dubrovnik today. I am convinced that this investigation will

19 be conducted in a proper manner." On that day, the 6th of December, did

20 you have any contact with General Kadijevic?

21 A. No.

22 Q. How, then, did you know that General Kadijevic ordered an

23 investigation?

24 A. From the message of Admiral Jokic.

25 Q. And you expressed here your conviction that the investigation will

Page 5785

1 be fair and that you will undoubtedly be informed of its results.

2 A. Yes. I invited General Kadijevic to come to Dubrovnik and I

3 offered guarantees on behalf of the Croatian government for his safety.

4 And I said that since the general didn't come, his officers should come to

5 Dubrovnik and see for themselves the destruction.

6 Q. On the 8th of December, when those two officers with the cameraman

7 came to Dubrovnik, were you there?

8 A. No.

9 Q. The first reference to General Kadijevic is in the context of this

10 investigation. In fact, the first reference, as far as you are concerned,

11 is made by Admiral Jokic in that message sent to you.

12 A. Yes. Admiral Jokic mentioned him.

13 Q. In view of your telephone conversations with Admiral Jokic, one

14 that you had with him personally and another with his ADC, the numerous

15 radiograms that were exchanged on that day between Dubrovnik and the naval

16 sector, is it the case that General Strugar was mentioned to you for the

17 first time in relation to this radiogram that we reviewed?

18 A. Yes, that was the first time. Sorry, on the 5th, when we started

19 our negotiations.

20 Q. I'm speaking about the 6th.

21 A. Yes. It was the first time, on the 6th.

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown Exhibit

23 P61, tab 38.

24 Q. Mr. Rudolf, is this the agreement that you signed together with

25 two other ministers, your colleagues, on behalf of the Croatian government

Page 5786

1 on one hand and Admiral Jokic signed it on behalf of the armed forces of

2 the SFRY?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. It was signed on the 7th December 1991?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Point 1 speaks of the cessation of armed clashes, armed

7 hostilities, in the entire area of Dubrovnik.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Point 2 says that "In order to ensure this permanent cease-fire,

10 both sides will strive to a reduction of troops and weapons."

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was that in keeping with your negotiations of the 5th of December?

13 A. I'm not sure that we discussed this particular detail on the 5th.

14 Q. Look at item 3.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. It says: "On the 7th of December at --"

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the time.

18 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. -- "the JNA is in agreement to allow transport, passenger and

20 other traffic, with previous announcement and control of cargo in Gruz

21 harbour." "Starting as of December 7 1991 at 1800 hours JNA agrees that

22 ships sail in and out of the Gruz harbour for traffic and passengers."

23 A. Yes. At 1800 hours, the cease-fire entered into force for the

24 entire area, for this entire territory.

25 Q. Does this agreement, Mr. Rudolf, apart from this inspection in the

Page 5787

1 Gruz harbour make reference to anything regarding the blockade of

2 Dubrovnik, as we discussed in the beginning?

3 A. You see, that is a matter of interpretation, whether the blockade

4 was lifted or not.

5 Q. Does this agreement make any reference to an undertaking that JNA

6 naval ships would not be used in that part of the sea?

7 A. I don't think so. Maybe we should read the text, but I don't

8 think so.

9 Q. So this control of ships in Gruz harbour is the only outstanding

10 matter from the 5th of December which stood in the way of the signing of

11 this agreement?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Look at one more thing in Article 1 of this agreement, the

14 penultimate paragraph of this article: "Each side shall, within the

15 limits of its competencies, institute proceedings against offenders of

16 these terms and inform the other side thereof."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you really reach an agreement that both sides will investigate

19 any offences and inform the other side?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Tell me, during your stay in Dubrovnik, during those ten days or

22 so, because you stayed on after the 7th of December for a couple of

23 days --

24 A. Yes, of course.

25 Q. Starting from the 7th of December 1991 until you left Dubrovnik,

Page 5788

1 were there any minor incidents?

2 A. Not as far as I can remember. Not in the city of Dubrovnik.

3 Certainly not.

4 Q. Tell me, after the 7th of December, did you have occasion to speak

5 to Admiral Jokic?

6 A. No.

7 Q. On the 7th of December before you signed this agreement, you

8 explained already how this meeting between you and Admiral Jokic ran, at

9 that meeting did he mention to you that he would carry out an

10 investigation?

11 A. It has been 12 years since that day. I really couldn't remember.

12 Q. Can I remind you in paragraph 32 of your statement reference is

13 made to the meeting of the 7th of December when you say: "When I

14 finished, Jokic unexpectedly and obviously very sincerely stood up and

15 apologised for the incident. He promised that he would carry out an

16 investigation, and he repeated Kadijevic's apology."

17 A. Yes, that is true, that last part. In the context of all our

18 discussions, that can be understood --

19 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me, Your Honour. I would like to just correct

20 the record. Paragraph 32 reads: "When I finished, Jokic in an unexpected

21 and visibly sincere manner stood up and apologised for the incident. He

22 promised an investigation..." It doesn't say that he would carry out an

23 investigation.

24 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I am reading from the B/C/S version of

25 the statement. The witness is here to tell us what exactly Admiral Jokic

Page 5789

1 said on the 7th.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, he said that in the context

3 of our discussion. It's difficult to say after so much time. But from

4 the entire context of his apology, when he said that General Kadijevic

5 would send an apology to me and even the European Community, it's

6 difficult to say anything for sure now.

7 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. All right. But did you receive this on the part of Kadijevic,

9 from Kadijevic?

10 A. No, I personally didn't.

11 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] If I may ask for tab 39 of P61 to be

12 shown to the witness.

13 Q. Before you review this document, Mr. Rudolf, regarding precisely

14 this meeting of the 7th of December, did Admiral Jokic at one point react

15 vehemently while you dictated the text of the agreement?

16 A. He said "The army's supposed to restore electricity, the water

17 supply. It's all about the army. What are you supposed to do?" And the

18 three of us looked at each other, and we said "We accept the agreement.

19 What else can we promise?" It was just a reaction. I already told you

20 about it. And he reacted once more when we were writing in Croatian.

21 Q. Is this reaction reflected in this excerpt from your book?

22 A. Which one?

23 Q. The excerpt from your book "The War We Didn't Want," when you

24 describe how he stood up at the meeting.

25 A. Yes, I believe I described all that, and all the radiograms. It's

Page 5790

1 all in the book.

2 Q. Did you have a look at this document?

3 A. I am looking at it right now.

4 Yes.

5 Q. Tell me, please, on the 6th, on the 7th, on the 12th, or maybe on

6 one of the later days, did you have any contact regarding these events in

7 Dubrovnik of the 6th of December with Admiral Brovet, with General

8 Kadijevic?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did Admiral Jokic maybe send you this document? Did he tell you

11 anything about the contents of this document?

12 A. I'm seeing it for the first time.

13 Q. Do you know that this commission representing the naval sector of

14 Boka and consisting of two officers and one cameraman came to Dubrovnik?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you there on the 9th?

17 A. Yes, I believe so. On the 9th.

18 Q. Did anyone from the Crisis Staff or the command of the defence of

19 Dubrovnik inform you on the 8th when this talk with the JNA commission was

20 over as to the results and what was agreed?

21 A. I don't know if they told me what was agreed but I believe they

22 were accompanied by a deputy by the name of Simonovic. He was an officer.

23 I believe he was a deputy of Nojko Marinovic.

24 Q. What about Mico Mihocevic? Was he the Croatian liaison officer

25 with the ECMM?

Page 5791

1 A. I don't know whether he was an officer at the time. But he was

2 liaising with these representatives of the European Community. He brought

3 telegrams, things like that. But I don't think he was an officer at that

4 time. Or maybe he was. I'm not sure.

5 Q. I'm going to remind you. In your statement, paragraph 22, you

6 say: "Later on that morning, I got a telegram that Mico Mihocevic, a

7 Croatian military liaison officer with the ECMM, gave me, saying that

8 Jokic had sent a message that due to operational reasons, the cease-fire

9 should come into effect at 11.15."

10 A. He's a colonel now, I think. If I'm not mistaken. Maybe he was

11 an officer. I'm not sure. But he was liaison.

12 Q. Even before your testimony, you corrected this statement.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You corrected the name of Mico Mihocevic.

15 A. Yes, but I'm not sure about this. But that's easy to establish.

16 That's easy to find out.

17 Q. At any rate, on the Croatian side, he carried out those duties?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Tell me one more thing in relation to the 5th of December. You

20 finished the meeting at Cavtat, and you said to us that after that you

21 provided information in Dubrovnik about the results of these talks. Can

22 you tell us who it was that you talked to? Who did you convey this to?

23 A. Everybody. If you wish, everybody that I was in touch with. Of

24 course, to Commander Marinovic, then the president of the city, Di

25 Mistura. I believe the Europeans too, so everybody. Because this was

Page 5792

1 good news. How can I put it?

2 Q. I beg your pardon.

3 A. I believed that at that time, we had reached an agreement. There

4 was a blockade, but I was sure that on the following day at 10.00, we

5 would sign the agreement that we had actually concluded. To tell you the

6 truth, we would have signed this even if the blockade had stayed on

7 because it was so important to have a cessation of hostilities.

8 Q. I'm sorry. I really need to pause a bit longer.

9 In view of the terms of the agreement, the final agreement that we

10 saw, Admiral Jokic, had he insisted, on the 10th of December, that ships

11 be examined or checked at sea, would you have signed that agreement, too?

12 A. I, speaking for myself, yes, I would have.

13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Once again, I would like to ask for

14 tab 35 from P61 to be shown to the witness again.

15 Q. You have this before you, don't you, this letter of Admiral Jokic

16 dated the 6th of December.

17 A. That is this famous - what can I say - telegram, message, whatever

18 you wish to call it.

19 Q. I'm going to read a sentence out to you, and I'll ask you for

20 clarification. It says here General Kadijevic sent a message to you and

21 to the Monitoring Mission of the European Community in Dubrovnik

22 concerning "an energetic investigation about our responsibility and the

23 perpetrators of this incident." Since you said that you did not contact

24 General Kadijevic on the 6th of December --

25 A. I did not.

Page 5793

1 Q. -- how do you understand this, then? That General Jokic was

2 transmitting this kind of message from General Kadijevic to you?

3 A. He is informing me about this message.

4 Q. Tell me, please, the next sentence says: "At the same time, we

5 expect to have responsibility established on your side as well, and in

6 order to have a full clarification of all circumstances with regard to the

7 events of last night and this morning." So "this morning" is the 6th of

8 December, and "last night" is the 5th of December, isn't it? What is your

9 understanding of this?

10 A. My understanding of this is that it is his message. And of course

11 I informed Mr. Nojko Marinovic about this, but I informed the command

12 about all these events and all these things. But the answer I got was

13 that this was written in a merely perfunctory manner, and all the answers

14 I got were quite identical, that from the Croatian side, this attack on

15 the 6th of December in the morning had not been provoked.

16 Q. Tell me, after this letter, you saw Admiral Jokic on the 7th of

17 December. Was there any mention by Admiral Jokic of this expectation that

18 an investigation be carried out on your side, too?

19 A. I cannot give an answer with any certainty.

20 Q. You cannot remember whether he asked you something about that?

21 A. I don't.

22 Q. And when he gave you the letter, you said that he gave you General

23 Strugar's letter in a blue envelope with an apology regarding the event of

24 the 6th of December.

25 A. That's right.

Page 5794

1 Q. On that occasion, was Jokic mentioned in relation to the

2 investigation, or Kadijevic, Strugar? Can you remember any of this at

3 all?

4 A. He just handed over the envelope. He just said "This is an

5 envelope for you from General Strugar." Nothing else. He never mentioned

6 Strugar again. Of course, he did mention Kadijevic saying that an apology

7 was underway.

8 Q. All right. And please look at item 4 regarding these proposals of

9 his; that is to say, that ships be checked in the port of Gruz. When you

10 received this message with this kind of proposal, bearing in mind the

11 proposal made in item 4, did you believe that a final agreement would be

12 reached?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. That was the only controversial matter?

15 A. I repeat, this telegram was of exceptional importance to us. I've

16 already said that I read it out to the citizens of Dubrovnik. And perhaps

17 I can tell you about a particular detail. Thanks to this message that I

18 read, and this agreement, I was declared an honourary citizen of the

19 district of Dubrovnik. So I only did what I thought was best. This was

20 no special merit of mine. But this shows how important this was to the

21 people from Dubrovnik. So I, as a man from Split - this is also

22 noteworthy - was declared an honourary citizen. I don't really want to go

23 into any other interpretations, but the people of Dubrovnik really thought

24 this was so important, and I am an honourary citizen of Dubrovnik.

25 Probably the first person from Split ever to hold that position in

Page 5795

1 Dubrovnik in view of the rivalries between the two cities. Perhaps the

2 other people present here are not aware of the magnitude of all of this.

3 Q. Later on, when you reported about your meeting with Admiral Jokic,

4 did you have any special talks with any of the members of the Crisis Staff

5 of Dubrovnik?

6 A. All of them. All of them. You see, everybody came and said "What

7 happened?" "What did you achieve?" And I was convinced that we had

8 reached an agreement except for this one particular item. And I thought

9 that in this entire story it wasn't all that important, that one item.

10 Q. Tell me, on the 5th of December, especially in relation to this

11 particular matter, did you talk to Commander Nojko Marinovic?

12 A. I certainly did. I must have.

13 Q. In view of the results of the talks, did you give him a particular

14 task in relation to the implementation of the agreement?

15 A. Yes. You see, my understanding was that we had reached an

16 agreement on cessation of hostilities. And I transmitted this to Nojko

17 Marinovic, and I think that he took this to be a type of order.

18 Q. Tell me, please, in connection with this, on the military side in

19 Dubrovnik, were any special instructions issued to the Crisis Staff or to

20 the military units in Dubrovnik? In terms of having absolute observance

21 of the cease-fire agreement, was there anything in writing or verbally?

22 Were there any orders whatsoever? Did anybody report to you about that?

23 A. I don't know about that.

24 Q. You say that you don't know that.

25 A. I don't. I don't. I didn't check it, you see. I thought that we

Page 5796

1 had reached agreement and that the following day we would be signing this

2 agreement on the following day at 10.00. There must have been a bit of

3 euphoria, too. And let me tell you one more thing: Before that, I had

4 signed two agreements that were actually observed in Zitnic. The

5 agreement was not signed on the first day, only on the second day. And

6 it was observed. And also the one up there that was signed in Rijeka, and

7 the one in Zitnic, and the one in Dubrovnik. All three were actually

8 observed, yes.

9 Q. Tell me one more thing, the letter you mentioned that you received

10 in a blue envelope on the 7th of December, do you remember the content of

11 the letter perhaps?

12 A. That was a letter in which General Strugar said that a unit of the

13 JNA got out of control and that it started an attack on its own bat, and

14 he expressed his regrets because of that attack.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Rudolf, thank you for your

17 answers. I have completed the cross-examination, Your Honours. Thank

18 you, Witness.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Rodic, thank you very much for that and to your

21 precise attention.

22 Ms. Somers.

23 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honours.

24 Re-examined by Ms. Somers:

25 Q. Mr. Rudolf, after the attacks on the Old Town of Dubrovnik on the

Page 5797

1 6th of December, were you, or to your knowledge any other official of the

2 Croatian government at any level, ever informed of whether or not an

3 investigation by the JNA did take place as to culpability; and if so, who

4 the culpable parties, if any, were found to be?

5 A. I personally do not know any details. But I have to tell you that

6 the Yugoslav People's Army was a well-organised army. I was sure that

7 they had started an investigation and that they knew exactly what was

8 going on. I even told you this. Eight or nine years later, I was

9 prepared to meet with General Jokic -- with Admiral Jokic and to ask him

10 what happened on this other side. I knew what happened on the Croatian

11 side. But I assumed that the Yugoslav People's Army, after all these

12 assurances, must have carried out an investigation. But I don't know the

13 results.

14 Q. So you are not aware of any matter of record that came from the

15 JNA about either the fact of an investigation having been carried out or

16 the results. Is that what you're confirming? You simply did not hear

17 about it?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Would you expect to have heard about it, given your very central

20 role in bringing about the negotiations finally on the 7th of December

21 1991? Would you expect -- you looked at me surprised. Perhaps my

22 question was not clear to you.

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. Given your role, would you have expected to have been apprised of

25 any results of any investigation that may have been carried out?

Page 5798

1 A. I personally, no. But the Croatian government, yes. Of course I

2 expected the Croatian government to be informed. You see, I was just a

3 minister in the government.

4 Q. And you were not informed, or were you informed, by anybody in the

5 Croatian government about the outcome of any possible investigation?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Was it your view that given your assertion that the Croatian side

8 did not provoke any attacks, that there was no need for an investigation

9 by the Croatian side on -- and I'm talking about only the events of the

10 6th of December.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You indicated that after December 7th 1991, or at least end of

13 December 1991, or perhaps you can give us the date, when was the last time

14 that you had any contact with Admiral Miodrag Jokic?

15 A. After the 7th of December, I never had any further contact. I

16 read an interview of his in the Borba daily newspaper, but -- that's a

17 Belgrade daily. But I never saw him, met up with him, talked to him.

18 Never.

19 Q. I want to clarify: You mentioned something about Vis, a meeting

20 at Vis. Was that subsequent to the 7th of December?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And are you indicating that Admiral Jokic was not involved -- you

23 did not see Admiral Jokic at that particular meeting?

24 A. No. The commander of the entire navy was there, Admiral Mile

25 Kandic.

Page 5799

1 Q. But not Admiral Jokic?

2 A. No, no.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 A. You're welcome.

5 Q. Your indication now that if you had to revisit the agreement, that

6 the bigger concern was ending the hostilities as opposed to necessarily

7 lifting the blockade, are you able to indicate whether or not the

8 hostilities, which I assume -- I'm making the assumption you mean the

9 shelling. Am I correct, the shelling by forces under the JNA control, was

10 the bigger concern?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you had indicated earlier that the timing of this particular

13 set of negotiations was important or you would not have known what would

14 have happened to Dubrovnik. Could you perhaps explain your comment. What

15 was it about the fate of Dubrovnik that was particularly worrisome for you

16 if hostilities did not cease?

17 A. First of all, you warned me that we don't have a lot of time, but

18 allow me to tell you the following: Had we not managed to establish this

19 telephone communication, the town would be destroyed. As far as the

20 shelling is concerned, we did manage to reach the cease-fire, and the fire

21 was abating, and finally, around 5.00, the hostilities stopped. You see,

22 we're sitting here in a room in peace, in a beautiful city, and what I

23 experienced in Dubrovnik was hell. It was real hell. I told you it was a

24 brutal attack against a very fine, peaceful town. And had we not managed

25 to stop the shelling, I don't know what would have remained as far as the

Page 5800

1 town was concerned. It would have been set on fire. That is one thing.

2 Secondly, you see, we in Croatia always wondered why Dubrovnik had

3 been blocked, why it had been besieged from land. And there are different

4 versions. But I'll tell you one. When I negotiated with Admiral Kandic

5 in Vis, the admiral told me that the navy would withdraw from Vis but not

6 the island of Lastovo, and these are two islands that are pretty nearby.

7 The island of Vis is very well fortified. It had a lot of military

8 infrastructure and equipment. And Lastovo is a small island, relatively

9 insignificant. And I wondered why he said that. When I same in Split I

10 looked at a map, and when you draw a line from the confluence of the

11 Neretva River towards Italy, towards the open sea, the island of Vis is to

12 the west of that line and the island of Lastovo is to the south. Since the

13 area up to Ston was occupied, I think - this is my interpretation - this

14 was perhaps one of the possible boundaries that was being considered at

15 the time between Croatia and the other state.

16 Q. You were shown a document from - and you don't have to pull it

17 out, I'll present to you, in the interests of time - from Prosecution's

18 Exhibit P61. It was tab 39, which was a commission report by -- sent

19 under the name of Admiral Jokic to Admiral Brovet, summarising the

20 commission, in other words, the persons who had gone to Dubrovnik from the

21 JNA to look around at the damage. I would like to ask you, please, one of

22 the comments at the very end of the report is: "It is the opinion of the

23 commission that there is no substantial damage to the cultural and

24 historical monuments."

25 I think the usher has just placed it in front of you, if it may be

Page 5801

1 of some assistance. It's just above -- on the second page -- are you

2 looking at where I'm reading from, where it says: "It is the opinion of

3 the commission that there is no substantial damage..." "The origin of all

4 the damage cannot be stated with certainty and the perpetrators named

5 because it is obvious that a lot of the damage was not caused by the

6 attacks from outside of the Old Town centre." My question to you is do

7 you agree with the opinion of the commission that there was no substantial

8 damage to the cultural and historical monuments in the Old Town as a

9 result of the shelling of the 6th of December? Do you concur with that?

10 A. I do not agree. And I must say that this is not at the level of

11 the Yugoslav Army. No matter what it was like.

12 Q. Was there in Dubrovnik among the people a sense, if you were able

13 to get the pulse of the town from your time there, a sense of needing to

14 engage in and some agreement to stop the hostilities and to improve the

15 conditions that the citizens of Dubrovnik were living under? Was there a

16 perceptible feeling from your having been there?

17 A. Yes. Look, that was our only way out.

18 Q. In your opinion, based on -- actually, not even so much on your

19 opinion. You were in Dubrovnik on the 6th of December. Is it conceivable

20 to you that the Croatian forces would have damaged their own cultural and

21 historical monuments in the Old Town of Dubrovnik?

22 A. Madam, that is nonsense.

23 Q. Were you aware of prior attacks by forces under the JNA control

24 against the Old Town of Dubrovnik in October and November? In other

25 words, did you know of any attacks before the 6th of December?

Page 5802

1 A. Yes, I did. But I want to say again, we always thought of

2 Dubrovnik as a whole so that these attacks would be treated, would be

3 thought of as attacks against Dubrovnik, including, of course, the Old

4 Town, which is an integral part of it.

5 Q. Now, when I asked you whether or not you thought the Croatians may

6 have worked damage on their own -- on cultural monuments or historical

7 monuments in their own town or Old Town, you said it was nonsense. Can

8 you indicate, if you know, in what esteem the people of Croatia held the

9 Old Town of Dubrovnik? How was it viewed?

10 A. You see, Dubrovnik, as we say, is the showcase of Croatia. It has

11 its own history and for many centuries it used to be a republic. Croatian

12 culture originates from that town. It is a jewel in the Republic of

13 Croatia. And throughout the world, when you speak of Croatia, other

14 cities are much less well known, but everybody knows of Dubrovnik. On the

15 day when Dubrovnik was attacked, on the 6th, I got telephone calls from

16 Italy, from London, protests were made from everywhere, from all over the

17 world over that attack. Politically speaking, to attack Dubrovnik is

18 something that is inconceivable to me.

19 Q. You were asked during cross-examination if you specifically

20 mentioned when you spoke with Admiral Jokic about the Old Town, and your

21 response - I'd have to pull the page - was that you included it within the

22 bigger framework of Dubrovnik. Do you recall giving -- do you recall

23 -- would it help if you took a look at your statement when you were asked

24 about what you relayed concerning the Old Town to Admiral Jokic? Would it

25 assist you to recall what you may have said to the Office of the

Page 5803

1 Prosecutor at the time?

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I object to this line

3 of questioning. This question was asked and clearly answered, both

4 in-chief and in cross-examination. I don't know what my learned friend is

5 expecting to happen now. Does she mean to correct the

6 examination-in-chief and the cross-examination? Or does she want to

7 distance herself from the witness's answers? I believe this line of

8 questioning is inadmissible in every way.

9 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, I think the purpose of examination is

10 not to trick a witness. If he has given some response and he is perhaps

11 not recollecting it, and if it would assist to refresh recollection, this

12 would be the appropriate vehicle in which to do it.

13 JUDGE PARKER: The problem is it's not a case of inability to

14 recall; the question has been asked and answered. I must say I agree with

15 Mr. Petrovic at the present time.


17 Q. The location of the Hotel Argentina gave you a view of the -- part

18 of the Old Town. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And when you were speaking about the shelling of Dubrovnik on the

21 telephone, both to the assistant to Admiral Jokic and to the admiral, did

22 you indicate the intensity with which the shelling was happening? Do you

23 recall?

24 A. Well, I said to him that Dubrovnik was being shelled. You see,

25 from the Hotel Argentina you can see the Old Town, as it is usually shown

Page 5804

1 by all photographs and cards. We could see that it was being shelled.

2 That was not at issue. I wrote in my letter to General Strugar that the

3 Old Town was being shelled. Whether I drew attention to the Old Town in

4 particular in that telephone conversation, I'm not sure. We could see

5 that the other part of Dubrovnik behind us was being shelled, but we could

6 see that the Old Town was being shelled. I don't think it was at issue.

7 It was a terrible sight when those buildings were on fire. And

8 you could clearly see the fire coming from inside the ramparts. And the

9 next day, the sight was horrible in the Old Town itself. Heaven forbid.

10 Q. Did either Admiral Jokic, if you recall, or his assistant or

11 anyone else you may have spoken to from the JNA that day ask you the

12 condition of the Old Town? Do you recall if a question emanated or

13 originated from the JNA side once you indicated that Dubrovnik was under

14 attack?

15 A. No. No. But what I said to Admiral Jokic, that an attack against

16 Dubrovnik was under way, he must have known what Dubrovnik looked like,

17 and he must have known that we were in Hotel Argentina. It must have been

18 clear that the whole town was being shelled, including the Old Town.

19 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me a second.

20 Q. Do you have any recollection about any conversations you may have

21 had with Admiral Jokic or his assistants at any point concerning the --

22 ultimately concerning the Old Town, irrespective of the time? Did you

23 mention anything that day in your direct dealings with either of them?

24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I object. Your

25 Honour, this question was just asked a minute ago. This is just a

Page 5805

1 different phrasing used by my learned friend to try to get an answer she

2 wants to hear. This question was asked and answered.

3 JUDGE PARKER: It has a wider scope. It's irrespective of time,

4 Mr. Petrovic. Carry on, Ms. Somers.


6 Q. Mr. Rudolf, did you understand my question or shall I repeat it?

7 My question was do you have any recollection about any conversations you

8 may have had --

9 A. I understand. When we met up again the next day -- you see, it's

10 very difficult to recount these details with any degree of certainty after

11 so much time. But I don't know if it is at issue at all that the Old Town

12 was attacked, was shelled. Is there any doubt?

13 Q. Did you ever receive from General Strugar prior to the telex, or

14 anybody acting on General Strugar's behalf, any concern expressed for the

15 protection of the Old Town from the time of the shelling's beginning? Did

16 anyone from the JNA side ask how the Old Town was faring, whether it was

17 -- whether there was any activity happening? Was there any inquiry

18 affirmatively made by anybody from the JNA side?

19 A. From the JNA side, no. I didn't mention General Strugar because

20 he didn't matter to me. Admiral Jokic mattered to me because I negotiated

21 with him as representative of the Yugoslav People's Army. And when I said

22 those two ships were being attacked, those ships at the time were located

23 under the ramparts of the Old Town. Admiral Jokic knew the layout of

24 Dubrovnik better than I did, and everyone in the army knew what the city

25 looked like. And when shelling started, it's logical that shells fell

Page 5806

1 everywhere. I don't know if it -- there is any controversy as to the

2 shelling of the Old Town.

3 Q. When you say the ships, are you referring to the ships -- the

4 Argosy, the one you call the parliament or parliamentarian ships?

5 A. Correct, these two.

6 Q. And these ships were in the old port harbour of Dubrovnik?

7 A. Yes. That's called the City Port. It's right in front of the

8 ramparts. There are two entrances into Dubrovnik, and they were berthed

9 in right next to the walls.

10 Q. In plain view to all who were above the city looking at the city

11 and the Old Town?

12 A. I will take the liberty of suggesting to the President of the

13 Trial Chamber and the Judges: Go to Dubrovnik. There is this hill of

14 Zarkovica and another hill, Bosanka. When you go up, Dubrovnik is like in

15 the palm of your hand. You can throw an apple down. The first thing I

16 did when Dubrovnik was liberated was to go up that hill to get a view of

17 Dubrovnik. If you ever have the opportunity, I beg you, please go up

18 there and see. You can reach the top of the hill by car.

19 From the hotel, we couldn't leave. We couldn't go out into the

20 street because we were directly under fire from the Zarkovica hill, from

21 Bosanka, and the Srdj Hill, which is in the middle between the two. And

22 then you will have an exact precise impression of what it was all like.

23 When I watched the shelling, it looked like the shells were falling and

24 destroying the town. It was like Goliath was throwing some sort of

25 weapons on the town and destroying it.

Page 5807

1 JUDGE PARKER: I suspect your answer was yes. And we may have to

2 take you up on your suggestion at some time.

3 MS. SOMERS: Just one or two very quick points since our time is

4 up, if the Chamber will indulge me.

5 Q. The correction that was referred to about Mr. Mihocevic. You made

6 a correction, and was that only as to the spelling of his name? Instead

7 of Mico, you wanted it to be Miso? Nothing about titles, is that correct,

8 or rank?

9 Thank you. And you were asked -- there was a reference during

10 cross-examination about the party who was representing the JNA or the

11 Supreme Command for signature on the 7th. Was it your expectation that it

12 would still be Admiral Jokic as he was the person who you met with on the

13 5th and had indicated that he was there and apologised through General

14 Strugar? Did you expect Admiral Jokic to be there on the 7th as well?

15 A. Where, in town?

16 Q. Did you expect Admiral Jokic to be the person signing on behalf of

17 the Supreme Command on the 7th given that he was the person you had been

18 dealing with on the 5th for the initial set of negotiations?

19 A. Yes, I expected Admiral Jokic to come.

20 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, in the interests of time, I will --

21 Q. Sorry. Mr. Rudolf, did you want to say something else?

22 A. Yes, just this: I didn't invite the general to come to Dubrovnik.

23 I invited Mr. Strugar to come to Dubrovnik and see. He is a well-educated

24 man, a soldier. He would have seen for himself because Mr. Strugar sent

25 me that radiogram, and I thought it would have been a good idea for him to

Page 5808

1 come and see for himself what had happened. But no, I did not invite

2 Jokic. I didn't call him.

3 Q. Just to correct the record. You said that "I did not invite the

4 general to come to Dubrovnik, I invited Mr. Strugar." When you said

5 "general," were you again referring to the admiral? The terms seem to

6 get confused in the record. Okay.

7 A. Yes, the admiral. It's the kind of mistake that those of us who

8 are not soldiers tend to make.

9 Q. Just to confirm, that despite your having been informed that

10 General Strugar would be your negotiating partner, you were told by

11 Admiral Jokic that he would be handling it on behalf of General Strugar,

12 were you at all surprised --

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection. That is

14 not in evidence. That has not been said. Would my learned friend kindly

15 say where it was said, on which page in the wording that she seems to be

16 putting into her question. What she is doing now is improper.

17 JUDGE PARKER: It's the "on behalf of General Strugar." We had

18 this earlier.


20 Q. Rather than General Strugar. Rather than General Strugar, despite

21 what you were told in Zagreb, were you -- was it expected by you that you

22 would continue to deal with Admiral Jokic as the representative for these

23 negotiations, negotiations of the 5th and what would have been the 6th but

24 ended up being the 7th of December?

25 A. I have to repeat again: I was told in Zagreb and I was told from

Page 5809

1 Belgrade that I would be negotiating with General Strugar. When I got in

2 touch with this liaison officer - what's his name - Jeremic, he told me

3 first that Jokic would be coming. When the negotiations started, Admiral

4 Jokic only said that General Strugar would not be coming, and that he

5 would be negotiating on behalf of the Supreme Command of the armed forces

6 of the SFRY, that is, Yugoslavia, that he was authorised to negotiate.

7 That was sufficient to us.

8 As I told you, I didn't care. It was a matter of indifference to

9 us who it would be; Kadijevic or anyone else. What mattered was that it

10 be a representative of the general staff.

11 Q. Your post, your position as minister of maritime affairs, would

12 you have expected to have been informed if, in fact, any action on the 6th

13 of December from the sea were implicated? Would you, as the minister of

14 maritime affairs, expect to have been made aware of that?

15 A. Well, yes. As a matter of fact, I was a bit surprised to hear it

16 is the Navy only that took part in the attack. If that suits you, then

17 prove it. I was a bit surprised.

18 Q. Were you ever informed that -- sorry. Your own observations to

19 confirm --

20 A. No, no, I was not informed.

21 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much, Your Honours, for the extra

22 time. I appreciate it.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. We must draw to an end very quickly.

24 Two things. To you Ms. Somers: Looking ahead, the Chamber was

25 surprised to see that for the last two witnesses you have contemplated

Page 5810

1 eight hours examination-in-chief for each. There are very detailed expert

2 reports from each. We would invite you to consider whether you need

3 anything like that time for examination-in-chief.

4 The second and important thing, Mr. -- or Dr. Rudolf, is to thank

5 you indeed for your patience. We gave you a very interrupted time

6 earlier. We apologise again for that. We thank you for your attendance

7 and what you have done to help us. And we wish you a safe journey home.

8 We will adjourn now for the evening.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I took

10 advantage of this weekend, don't you worry.

11 JUDGE PARKER: We had confidence in your initiative.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.08 p.m.,

14 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 4th day of May,

15 2004, at 9.00 a.m.