Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6970

1 Wednesday, 30 June 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 11.07 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, Mr. Djurasic. May I remind you of

7 the affirmation that you took at the beginning which still applies.

8 Yes, Mr. Rodic.

9 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Examined by Mr. Rodic: [Continued]

13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Djurasic. We are going to

14 continue with the examination-in-chief. You mentioned yesterday during

15 the examination-in-chief that Mr. Ivo Simunovic from Dubrovnik came to

16 Mokosica on a number of occasions. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did he come -- in what capacity, to put it that way, did he come

19 to Mokosica?

20 A. He came for talks with me in the capacity of the representative of

21 the town of Dubrovnik and their army, the army that was in Dubrovnik.

22 Q. Was he wearing a uniform?

23 A. Yes, he was.

24 Q. Was he secure? Was security provided when he came to Mokosica?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6971

1 Q. Would you please make pauses between my question and your answer

2 for interpretation purposes. Thank you.

3 Did Mr. Simunovic perhaps call you to come to Dubrovnik?

4 A. Yes, on one occasion he did offer to have the talks held in

5 Dubrovnik, and I accepted his invitation. However, when he told me that I

6 would have to come wearing civilian clothes, I didn't want to. I wanted

7 to wear my uniform just as he wore his uniform when he came to see me. He

8 said he couldn't guarantee my safety and security, so I never actually

9 went.

10 Q. Did Mr. Simunovic on the side where the JNA was, did he have any

11 property there?

12 A. Yes, he did. He had his house in Zaton. And on one occasion, he

13 came to visit his house, and on another occasion he brought a foreign

14 delegation also to show them his property. I received them. I saw them

15 off and returned safely. And so did he.

16 Q. Did he have any problems with that property that he owned there?

17 A. When he came for the first time, the family house, it was a family

18 house where his mother lived. That was completely intact and untouched.

19 However, when he came on the second occasion, it had been looted, and the

20 goods inside the house had been disturbed. I explained to him that it was

21 probably that some of our soldiers saw him go to the house and that is why

22 they upset the things that were inside. But he had a look round quickly,

23 and as far as he could see nothing had been taken away, although

24 everything had been in a shambles.

25 Q. Can you tell me the exact location of his family house. Give us a

Page 6972

1 location.

2 A. Well, it's in Zatan. The place is called Zatan. I can't give you

3 the name of the street.

4 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I should now like to call upon the

5 usher to distribute a document, please.

6 Q. Mr. Djurasic, do you recognise this document, if you look at the

7 title, the heading on page two of the document, whose document it is?

8 A. It is a document of the command of the 9th Military Naval Sector,

9 the 9th VPS, deputy commander for morale and propaganda.

10 Q. And who is the document addressed to?

11 A. It is addressed to the command of the place called Grude. I don't

12 know who in person.

13 Q. At that time, were you at the command post at Grude doing your

14 duty there?

15 A. Yes, I was.

16 Q. Would you take a look at the document, perhaps read through it

17 briefly, and tell us whether the contents are familiar.

18 A. To be quite franks, it's difficult for me to remember this

19 document precisely because there were quite a number of documents of this

20 kind where it said information, so I can't pinpoint this particular one

21 and say yes, I remember it.

22 Q. Now, if you take a look at paragraph 2, perhaps, where it says

23 that an agreement with Croatia was signed and that it provided for the

24 fact that by the 10th of December 1991, a complete relocation of manpower,

25 equipment, materiel, ammunition, mines, and explosives, combat and

Page 6973

1 noncombat vehicles, et cetera, be relocated, are you aware of that, that

2 that actually did happen, this relocation of units from Croatia on the

3 10th of December 1991?

4 A. Yes, yes, that did go through.

5 Q. During that period of time, did you have any knowledge of or

6 receive information about from the superior command the opening of

7 artillery fire at the -- mortar fire at the units of the JNA?

8 A. Yes, frequent information of that kind would come in. So once

9 again, I can't be specific in giving you a date when it actually happened.

10 Q. I'm not asking about the date; I'm just asking but the contents.

11 Did you receive information of this kind generally speaking?

12 A. Yes, we did.

13 Q. If you look at page 2, paragraph 2 from the top, we see mention

14 here of the Old Town, Stari Grad. Now, did information reach you about

15 that, about what it says here in paragraph 2 related to the Old Town?

16 A. Yes, information of this kind did reach us. However, I personally

17 did not see them to be able to say specifically. But from the general

18 information and in talking to my colleagues, that kind of thing, that's

19 how I learned about this.

20 Q. Now, the end of the document, it says that during this period of

21 time, that was to say November, another truce was signed, one in a line of

22 truce agreements.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I should like to tender

Page 6974

1 this document and I'd like to have a number assigned to it, please.

2 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

3 THE REGISTRAR: The document is D88.

4 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Djurasic, did you hear or know or come to learn about in any

6 way the fact that the units of the JNA during December carried out any

7 kind of attack near Dubrovnik? Did you hear anything like that?

8 A. I heard many times that there was some kind of fighting going on.

9 However, I was on a different assignment in a different location, so it

10 was very difficult for me to be able to follow and monitor the situation

11 and know what was going on.

12 Q. Tell me, please, where were you yourself on the 6th of December

13 1991?

14 A. At the command post in Mokosica.

15 Q. And do you happen to remember when you left the command post at

16 Mokosica to take up your new duties?

17 A. I took up my new duties at the end of December. That's when I

18 left. I don't know exactly what date it was. But I handed over my duties

19 and went off to take up my new duties. Actually, I returned to my

20 original duty of commander.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat, commander of what?

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Tell us, please, did Admiral Jokic call you over the phone on the

24 6th of December, and did he order you to go to Zarkovica --

25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner.

Page 6975












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6976

1 MR. WEINER: Yes, there's two questions. First is, did he call?

2 And then he's -- and then he's offering a leading question as to what

3 certain -- what the content of the call is. Let him answer first whether

4 or not he contacted him by telephone.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Both propositions are valid, Mr. Rodic. But more

6 to the point on an area so critical, you know better than to be leading.

7 Thank you. So if you would put your first question, and then change the

8 second after the first is asked.

9 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I will do that.

10 Thank you.

11 Q. Mr. Djurasic, did you on the 6th of December contact -- did you

12 have any contacts with Admiral Jokic?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. Can you tell us anything more about that, what those contacts

15 were, how they came about, in what way, and the contents of your

16 conversation?

17 A. Admiral Jokic called me up on the phone, the official army

18 telephone, the one we mentioned yesterday. And judging by the tone of his

19 voice, I could tell that he was angry. I can't quite his exact words here

20 and now. I can paraphrase them, give you the gist of it. But mostly he

21 said, Djurasic, what's going on over there? Who is shelling Dubrovnik or

22 opening fire and targeting Dubrovnik when I'm here talking and discussing

23 and negotiating a truce or cease-fire? I don't know which of the two it

24 was, what word he used. But I could tell that he was angry and excited

25 and I said I didn't know. So that was the first intimation I had that

Page 6977

1 anything was actually going on. But I said I didn't know what was going

2 on, which I didn't. And that's where we ended our conversation.

3 Q. Before that telephone conversation with Admiral Jokic, did you

4 have any knowledge whatsoever about the goings-on as far as combat was

5 concerned on that particular day, or possibly about any shelling or

6 fighting between the Croatian forces and the JNA forces?

7 A. No, no, I don't remember having any knowledge of that, any

8 awareness. And that was the first time I heard about it, that something

9 like that was going on when I spoke to the admiral.

10 Q. Did you during that conversation with Admiral Jokic receive any

11 orders from him?

12 A. No, unless you mean when he said, "What's going on?" Otherwise,

13 any direct orders pertaining to my conduct or action on my part, I did

14 not.

15 Q. Tell me, please, did you yourself perhaps on that particular day

16 phone Admiral Jokic?

17 A. No. I don't think I did, at least I don't remember. But I don't

18 think I did.

19 Q. Did you on that day report anything to Admiral Jokic?

20 A. As far as I remember, I did not.

21 Q. If we become more specific and put it this way and say, about the

22 combat going on between the JNA units and Croatian units, did you report

23 back to him about anything of that kind, any matters along those lines?

24 A. No, no, I didn't.

25 Q. Did you on the 6th of December before that conversation with

Page 6978

1 Admiral Jokic or after the conversation with Admiral Jokic go to

2 Zarkovica?

3 A. No. I didn't go to Zarkovica either then or -- well, I don't

4 remember going to Zarkovica at all.

5 Q. On the 6th of December, did you see Vladimir Kovacevic at all,

6 Vladimir Kovacevic nicknamed Rambo?

7 A. I'd heard of him, but I never met him, nor was I ever at his

8 positions.

9 Q. Very well. Now, on that 6th of December, my previous question

10 referred to Zarkovica. I'm now asking you the same thing for Brgat and

11 Bosanka. Did you ever go is there?

12 A. No, no. Otherwise, I was on a completely different assignment, so

13 I didn't tour those firing positions. I had no jurisdiction over them,

14 and there was no need for me to go there at all.

15 Q. Did you have any jurisdiction or authority with respect to any

16 combat unit in your environment? That is to say, coming under the command

17 post of Mokosica?

18 A. No, no, I didn't.

19 Q. Did you on that day, once again, the 6th of December, report -- my

20 question relates once again to the combat activities of the JNA units, so

21 in that sense and along those lines, did you report about anything like

22 that to the operational centre of the VPS at the forward command post?

23 A. Well, perhaps a report did go off from the command post. I don't

24 remember sending it myself. I had my deputies. I had my staff. They

25 monitored the situation. So I really can't say for sure.

Page 6979

1 Q. Now, regarding any JNA attacks, did you report on anything like

2 that? For example, about Officer Kosoric?

3 A. Well, I don't really know. There were various talks and

4 conversations. I really can't say. What situation you mean? Are you

5 just specifically referring to the 6th?

6 Q. That's right.

7 A. No, I personally did not, which does not mean that nobody did from

8 the command post because I wasn't in my office all the time. There were

9 other people there. So perhaps it is possible that some operational

10 report might have been sent out, but I really don't know about it.

11 Q. Did any of your deputies, for instance, receive an assignment from

12 Admiral Jokic on that day?

13 A. To the best of my knowledge, no, they didn't.

14 Q. And you as the commander of the command post and place of

15 Mokosica, would you have been informed had somebody received a direct

16 assignment from Admiral Jokic?

17 A. Most probably I would.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that completes my

20 examination-in-chief of this witness. Thank you.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Rodic.

22 Ms. Somers.

23 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, Mr. Weiner will conduct the cross.

24 Thank you, sir.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

Page 6980

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Weiner:

2 Q. Sir, I'd like to go back -- first, good morning, my name is Philip

3 Weiner. I am a prosecutor with the Office of the Prosecutor, and I'm

4 going to be asking you some questions.

5 Now, you testified that you originally received an assignment from

6 Captain Zec to come to Grude. Correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And after you received the assignment, you contacted Admiral

9 Jokic?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. And you contacted him by telephone?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. You contacted him because you knew him well?

14 A. Because he was my commander.

15 Q. And you had served under him for approximately five years?

16 A. Right.

17 Q. And you called him because you trusted him to find out what the

18 assignment was about?

19 A. I wanted him to clarify the assignment.

20 Q. And you trusted or you believed that he would clarify the

21 assignment?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. And he told you what that assignment was?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you believed him?

Page 6981












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6982

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you believed him because you knew him, and you knew he was a

3 trustworthy person?

4 A. Well, it is a matter of course to trust your commander whether you

5 know him or not.

6 Q. And you knew Admiral Jokic to be an honourable man?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And he was honest with you. He told you what that assignment was

9 in Grude.

10 A. He clarified the assignment.

11 Q. And you believed him because you knew him to be an honourable man?

12 A. You could say that.

13 Q. And he told you you were being sent to Grude to normalise --

14 basically to normalise the local situation there.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And he told you that you were to help the local residents with

17 their problems?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And that -- and you were to supply the necessary resources for

20 them?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. And you were to feed the public?

23 A. Among other things.

24 Q. And then Admiral Jokic later sent you to Mokosica?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6983

1 Q. And again, he sent you there to normalise the local situation.

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. And you were to help the local residents?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you were to work with the local police?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you were to feed the people?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you did that; you fed the people in Grude and Mokosica.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So while the people in the Old Town barely had any food to eat,

12 you were feeding the people in Mokosica and Grude?

13 A. I don't know about the situation in the Old Town.

14 Q. But you were feeding the people in Grude and Mokosica?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. Just as Admiral Jokic had instructed you to do?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, sir, I want to move a little bit to another area. On

19 December 8th, two officers came to see you before they were going to

20 inspect the damage to the Old Town. Isn't that correct?

21 A. They didn't come to see me. They had to go that way. They had to

22 ask me to ensure safe passage for them to Dubrovnik.

23 Q. And you did that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And sir, you're familiar with the Old Town? You're familiar with

Page 6984

1 the --

2 A. I was. I had been to the Old Town. I had lived in Herceg Novi

3 for a long time, and I went to Dubrovnik frequently.

4 Q. And you went there because it was a big tourist centre where

5 everyone went?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. And it was a beautiful area?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. And the Old Town was one of the most popular destinations probably

10 in all of Croatia, if not Yugoslavia, for tourism?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And were you aware that it was a UNESCO-protected area, sir?

13 A. I knew that.

14 Q. So you met with these officers, and you got them to the Old Town.

15 Were you aware at that time that the Old Town had been shelled, that it

16 had been shelled on December 6th by the Yugoslav People's Army?

17 A. Yes, I knew that.

18 Q. Did you see the smoke and the flames coming from the Old Town on

19 December 6th?

20 A. No.

21 Q. That's because you were in Mokosica, which is about 10 kilometres

22 away?

23 A. It's not so much the distance. It's the relief, the lay of the

24 land that makes it impossible to see.

25 Q. Okay. So you weren't able to see it. Did you see it on

Page 6985

1 television?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you could see the smoke pouring out of the Old Town?

4 A. I saw that later on television.

5 Q. And you could also see on television buildings burning?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And that you knew many buildings had been damaged in the shelling

8 by the JNA on December 6th?

9 A. I knew from hearing from others, but what the damage was, whether

10 many buildings were damaged, I couldn't tell you.

11 Q. Well, you knew that there were some very old buildings in the Old

12 Town having been there as a tourist or stayed there?

13 A. Yes, I knew that.

14 Q. And were you aware that the streets in the Old Town were covered

15 in debris from these damaged buildings on December 6th?

16 A. Well, I wouldn't be able to tell you about that.

17 Q. Had you ever heard of the Old Town being in any such condition of

18 smoke coming out, damaged buildings, buildings on fire prior to December

19 6th?

20 A. No, I didn't know about that. Didn't hear it from anyone.

21 Q. So prior to the JNA bombing on December 6th, you hadn't heard of

22 the Old Town being in flames or burning or buildings damaged prior to

23 December 6th, in that type of condition?

24 A. No, I had no official information.

25 Q. Okay. Now, sir, having visited the area, as you said, you knew

Page 6986

1 that there were a lot of very old buildings.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. There were old churches?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. There were very old monasteries, centuries old?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. There were old houses called palaces or referred to as palaces?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. There was the oldest pharmacy in Europe?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The second-oldest synagogue in Europe?

12 A. I didn't know all these details, but I knew quite a lot, yes.

13 Q. And you know that the Old Town is in a very small, congested area?

14 All these houses are congested together?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And other than the wide Stradun, it's all of these little narrow

17 streets that are all closely knit together?

18 A. Yes, that's that kind of town.

19 Q. And you know, sir, that if you shell such a place for five to ten

20 hours, you'd have serious consequences to these old buildings?

21 A. I can assume the effect. If it's true that it had been shelled

22 for such a long time.

23 Q. And the effect that you can assume, it would be -- there would be

24 serious consequences to these old or very old buildings because everything

25 is so congested together if you shell for five to ten hours?

Page 6987












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6988

1 A. Very probably.

2 Q. And sir, you also knew that the Old Town was not a museum, but it

3 was a living city; people were living there?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And that there were a number of local people who were still

6 staying there, not everyone had left. There were a large number of local

7 people who were staying there, who had long lived there?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. And that there were refugees, people who had left other areas such

10 as Mokosica and Grude were staying with relatives and friends in the Old

11 Town?

12 A. Well, I don't know where they were exactly, in Old Town or in

13 Dubrovnik generally. I just knew they were in Dubrovnik.

14 Q. So you knew a large number of people were in that area, refugees?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. And once again, you know what the houses are like. They

17 are all connected houses along these very narrow streets. It's a

18 congested area in the Old Town.

19 I didn't hear your answer, sir.

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. And all these palaces are tied together on these narrow, congested

22 streets?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And if you shell an area like the Old Town, which is congested

25 with residents, for five to ten hours, that would be a dangerous situation

Page 6989

1 for the local residents. Isn't that correct?

2 A. Certainly.

3 Q. Now, sir, you mentioned the villages of Mokosica and Grude.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you said that -- well, at the time you were placed in command

6 of those villages, you had been an officer or a member of the JNA for

7 about 20 years.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And were you a major at that time or a lieutenant colonel?

10 A. Lieutenant colonel. That's when I got the rank of lieutenant

11 colonel.

12 Q. Okay. And while there, you worked with local residents starting

13 off with Grude? You worked with the local residents.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you worked also with the local leaders who formed the crisis

16 staff, local residents who were like the leaders of the community?

17 A. There, in Mokosica; not in Grude.

18 Q. So you worked with the crisis staff, which was comprised of the

19 basic -- the local leaders from the area?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. And the job of the crisis staff was to help the public with their

22 day-to-day activities of life?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. And you discussed matters with them, you negotiated with them?

25 A. Well, we organised life in such a way that every day in a certain

Page 6990

1 period we would gather, review day-to-day problems, be it street sweeping,

2 electricity, supply of food and necessities, and we assigned various tasks

3 to people for the following day to make it work. But the biggest part was

4 played by the local people who lived there because they knew the situation

5 best. In Mokosica, for instance, it was cold. There was no firewood, no

6 heating. And through the government of Montenegro, I managed to get two

7 truckfuls of gas bottles. Water tanks came regularly. We managed to use

8 power generators for a while until we got electricity restored. That was

9 the result, the success of our efforts.

10 And then later, life returned to normal as the service line from

11 Mokosica to Dubrovnik started working again. And every day we would ship

12 people there and back. That is what we did, and I hope this answer is

13 satisfactory.

14 Q. Thank you. And what's what the local crisis staff was involved

15 in, the day-to-day problems, food, power, wood for heating? Those are the

16 types of matters the crisis staff is involved with, people-type issues.

17 Correct?

18 A. I led that crisis staff, and that was our business, yes.

19 Q. Okay. And you led it because Admiral Jokic had told you to do

20 this and had told you to help these people, and you, in fact, did so?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In addition to dealing with the local residents, you had to

23 oversee or monitor your own soldiers?

24 A. Yes, correct.

25 Q. You had to make sure that the soldiers in your command were

Page 6991

1 following orders, that they did what they were told to do?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. And that's part of military discipline?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And the JNA, like any other army, functions on discipline?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Because if there's no discipline, then problems can arise?

8 A. That is true, too.

9 Q. And if you maintain no discipline -- problems would have arisen in

10 Mokosica and Grude if there was no military discipline.

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Now, in those areas, you were aware that there was also a military

13 police unit?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. And although it wasn't assigned to you, it was assigned to the 9th

16 VPS?

17 A. That is true.

18 Q. And if a crime was committed, you would have to act. You would

19 report the crime, notify someone up the line, but you would have to take

20 some sort of action if a crime is committed by one of your soldiers?

21 A. If that had happened, that is the most likely way in which I would

22 have reacted. However, I had no occasion to do any such thing because the

23 soldiers under my command had not committed a crime or done any such

24 thing. And I had no opportunity to react to any crimes committed by a

25 soldier or anyone else.

Page 6992

1 Q. That's because you maintained discipline?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. But you have to admit, if a serious crime was committed by a

4 soldier, you would have to act?

5 A. True.

6 Q. So if a soldier in your command in Grude or Mokosica raped,

7 robbed, beat, murdered a civilian, you would have to take action?

8 A. If that had happened, certainly, yes.

9 Q. And you do that because if you don't take action, others might

10 follow suit and do the same?

11 A. Most probably.

12 Q. And then if you didn't take action, the crimes would continue?

13 A. That is true, too.

14 Q. So if you have a looting-type situation, if you don't take any

15 action, other soldiers will go out and loot thinking they can get away

16 with it, too?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And had you ever dealt with any looting-type situations in

19 Mokosica or Grude?

20 A. For the most part, after command posts were set up and control was

21 taken of the territory, we worked in cooperation with the police at

22 checkpoints, and there were very, very few such incidents, although in

23 theory it could have happened because it was a large territory with a

24 large number of military personnel circulating. It could have happened.

25 Q. Okay. Now, basically you took action to prevent these crimes from

Page 6993












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6994

1 occurring?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Because you know if the crimes are occurring, not only would it

4 have negative effects on your army, lack of discipline, more people

5 committing crimes, but it would also have a negative effect on the morale

6 of the local population?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. And the locals, especially those on the crisis staff who were the

9 local leaders, they would be complaining to you?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. And you know there are various types of crimes, all sorts of

12 crimes. You have looting maybe in the middle, disorderly and drunkenness

13 on the bottom, murder and rape on the top? There are some more serious

14 and less serious crimes than looting.

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. And you know that disobeying a commander's order is a serious

17 matter?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And if someone disobeys a commander's order, it has to be dealt

20 with or it will continue to happen?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And disobeying a commander's order to stop shelling is a serious

23 matter, too?

24 A. Certainly.

25 Q. And if no action is taken to the disobeying of a commander's order

Page 6995

1 to stop shelling, it's going to continue?

2 A. I suppose that's the way it is.

3 Q. So that's why you have to use discipline and take action, as you

4 did in Mokosica and Grude?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Targeting civilians is a serious matter?

7 A. Very much.

8 Q. Disobeying a commander's order and continuing to target civilians

9 is a serious matter?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. If you don't take action, it will continue?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So action must be taken?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. Otherwise other people, other officers will think that they can do

16 it, too?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And targeting civilian objects is also a crime?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And if that happens, someone is targeting civilian objects in

21 violation of orders, action must be taken?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. And if you don't take action, it will continue?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The answer was yes? Okay.

Page 6996

1 And if you don't take action, others, other officers may believe

2 that they can do it, too?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, you indicated or you testified that you knew who

5 Captain Kovacevic, known as Rambo, was? You know who that was? You know

6 who he was? Not that you knew him personally --

7 A. I heard, I heard about him. But I didn't know him personally.

8 Q. And did you become aware that it was Captain Kovacevic who led the

9 attack on the 6th of December?

10 A. No.

11 Q. How had you heard about Captain Kovacevic?

12 A. I heard from other people who talked. I heard from a report that

13 he was a commander of a unit outside of Dubrovnik, but I didn't go to his

14 fire position, and I didn't meet him officially as a commander. I don't

15 know any details.

16 Q. Well, did you hear that it was Captain Kovacevic's unit that

17 shelled the Old Town of Dubrovnik?

18 A. I heard the shelling came from those positions, but all that is

19 gossip, hearsay. I don't have any official information, and I didn't have

20 it then.

21 Q. Well, you heard that the Old Town had been shelled on December

22 6th. You knew of that? You learned of that?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. And were you aware that the Old Town had been shelled for a period

25 of five to ten hours? Shelled over that period of five to ten hours?

Page 6997

1 A. No. No, I didn't know that.

2 Q. And were you aware that shelling continued even after the command

3 of the 19th -- 9th VPS ordered it stopped?

4 A. No. No, I didn't know that. I didn't know when the order came,

5 when the shelling started or when it stopped. I really don't know.

6 Q. But you know the Old Town was damaged on that date?

7 A. I know that.

8 Q. And you know that people on both sides were injured on that date?

9 A. I heard about that.

10 Q. And you know people on both sides were killed on that date?

11 A. I heard about that as well.

12 Q. And were you aware a few weeks after this incident where people

13 were hurt and killed and the Old Town was damaged and Captain Kovacevic

14 had refused to stop shelling, after orders, that Captain Kovacevic was

15 promoted? Were you aware of that?

16 A. No, no. I'm not aware of that.

17 Q. Sir, did you ever visit the 3rd Battalion of the 5th Brigade?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Were you aware that the 3rd Battalion of the 5th Brigade was also

20 involved in the shelling on December 6th?

21 A. I think I heard some stories going round, but I really can't say.

22 I don't know the details at all.

23 Q. And were you aware that Colonel Jovanovic was the battalion

24 commander of the 3rd Battalion of the 5th Brigade?

25 A. No. No.

Page 6998

1 Q. Were you aware that because Colonel Jovanovic disobeyed orders and

2 continued to shell, Admiral Jokic had him removed, unlike

3 Captain Kovacevic who was promoted?

4 A. I'm not aware of that, about the personnel changes. I wasn't in

5 the narrow staff of the command of the 9th VPS, so I really can't say. I

6 don't know.

7 Q. Now, sir, you were shown Exhibit D88.

8 MR. WEINER: Could the witness be shown that again, please.

9 Q. That was the letter you were shown this morning, sir. Isn't that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And that letter was written by Mihajlo Zarkovic who was the

13 assistant commander for moral guidance and political propaganda. Isn't

14 that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What does the assistant commander for moral guidance and political

17 propaganda do? What's the person's function?

18 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection. There's an

19 error in the translation into English because the abbreviation "PP" means

20 legal affairs, pravni poslovi, and in the B/C/S version, it is the

21 assistant commander for MV and PP. And the translation of the PP, moral

22 guidance and legal matters. Pravni proslovi. So the political propaganda

23 is an error in the translation. The Defence apologies, but we would like

24 to draw your attention to that. My learned friend interpreted it

25 correctly as it was written, but he can check it out with the witness.

Page 6999












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7000

1 Thank you

2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner.

3 MR. WEINER: The translation that I have which I received from the

4 Defence this morning at approximately 8.45, it says assistant commander

5 for MV, and it says "moral guidance and PP, political propaganda."

6 JUDGE PARKER: We all have that. Mr. Rodic says that is an error.


8 Q. Excuse me, sir, what -- the translation didn't pick up what you

9 said. Could you repeat that.

10 A. Go ahead.

11 Q. What position --

12 THE INTERPRETER: The witness said pravni poslovi, legal matters

13 or affairs.


15 Q. In this document -- actually, first, did you draft this document?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you participate in the drafting of this document?

18 A. No.

19 Q. In the letter, this assistant commander is complaining about

20 propaganda being used by one side which he refers to as the Ustasha.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What is Ustasha? Isn't that a negative, slang, insulting word

23 referring to Croatians?

24 A. I understood it from the text to mean, when it says Ustasha, that

25 the forces that had the insignia of the Ustashas. And this doesn't mean

Page 7001

1 to imply that all Croats are Ustashas, but certain people bearing weapons

2 with insignia of that kind, of the -- the insignia of the Ustasha units

3 who were referred to and called Ustashas.

4 Q. And you know, sir, or would you agree, sir, that this letter is

5 propaganda? Propaganda is used in this letter. Isn't that correct?

6 A. Well, the heading and title of this letter is "information," and

7 the superior command is informing its -- these subordinate units about the

8 situation. The situation can have a bearing on morale or moral guidance

9 through this letter. But otherwise, it is not a letter of propaganda.

10 Q. But portions of the letter contain propaganda. Isn't that

11 correct?

12 A. Well, very well. You could put it that way, I suppose.

13 Q. Such as on the second page in the English, the sentence "this

14 pattern of rumour spreading, misinformation, and special psychological

15 warfare has enjoyed the active backing of certain parties and

16 party-controlled media using their like-minded allies to openly side with

17 the fascist forces." That's propaganda, isn't it, sir?

18 A. I understand this as an observation most probably, with justified

19 reasons which are not set out here. I cannot enter into the mind of the

20 person who wrote this because it is an official document and it should be

21 believed.

22 Q. And it should be -- and who were the fascist forces? Would that

23 be the Croatians?

24 A. Yes. The forces. The Croatian forces, the forces of the Croatian

25 Army or the political forces which had that kind of fascist propaganda.

Page 7002

1 One of the parties, not everybody perhaps.

2 Q. And you said being an official document, it should be believed.

3 That's what you just stated to a moment ago. Isn't that correct?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. Now, on the second page, it further states: "They are setting

6 light to car tyres around the Old Town ramparts in order to lead the press

7 to believe that the Old Town is being shelled." Isn't that propaganda,

8 sir?

9 A. If I knew that that was true, then certainly it would be

10 propaganda. However, I am not in a position to deny it now and say, no,

11 tyres were not burnt, or, yes, tyres were burnt. I don't have any

12 personal knowledge about that. But if tyres weren't burnt and this was

13 written in such a way, then it is propaganda. Whereas if the tyres were

14 indeed set fire to and lit, then it is a statement of fact.

15 Q. Sir, were you aware that the period just after this letter was

16 written, and it was written on November 15th, that the Old Town had been

17 shell for two or more days in November? Were you aware of that?

18 A. No.

19 Q. So if the -- I'm sorry. There's a transcript mistake. Maybe I

20 said it wrong.

21 The question should have been that the Old Town had been shelled

22 prior to this letter being written, just a few days prior to this letter

23 being written. Were you aware of that, sir?

24 A. No, no, I was not aware of that.

25 Q. Were you aware that the Old Town and the Old Town's harbour and

Page 7003

1 its boats were shelled on November 11th and November 12th, 1991?

2 A. I can't confirm the date, but I did hear about it. I heard some

3 things along those lines. Now, whether it was on the 11th or 12th and

4 what the intensity of it all was, it's very difficult for me to say

5 because as I've already told you, I was occupied with other duties and

6 information reached me on matters I did not take part in. So it was --

7 it's very difficult for me to say. And it would be irrelevant if I said

8 yes or no given the circumstances.

9 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, may I show the witness about 45 seconds

10 of a video of the Old Town being shelled.


12 MR. WEINER: If the witness could -- go to the video.

13 [Videoclip played]


15 Q. Sir, that was a video taken by war correspondent Paul Davies. You

16 were able to see the missiles flying into the Old Town walls and into

17 those boats, weren't you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Those weren't flying in automobile tyres that were flying in

20 causing those boats to explode. Correct?

21 I can't hear you, sir. Can you repeat that, please.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you could see the boats burning after being struck with

24 missiles?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

Page 7004

1 Q. You didn't see any burning tyres, did you?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 Now --

5 MR. WEINER: For the record, that was P19, Your Honour.

6 Q. Now, sir, were you aware that no one was disciplined or punished

7 after the shelling of the Old Town of Dubrovnik in November?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you ever hear of anyone being punished or disciplined after

10 the shelling of the Old Town in November?

11 A. No. I was not aware of that.

12 Q. Were you aware that the Old Town of Dubrovnik was also shelled in

13 October 1991?

14 A. I can't remember.

15 Q. So you can't recall if the JNA did, in fact, shell the Old Town in

16 October of 1991.

17 Had you ever hear of anyone being punished as a result of the

18 shelling of the Old Town in October of 1991? Punished or disciplined?

19 A. Well, if it means anything to you, I didn't hear about that, but I

20 wasn't in a position to know either.

21 Q. Well, had you ever heard of anyone being punished or disciplined

22 after the shelling in December of 1991 other than the Colonel Jovanovic,

23 who I mentioned, who Admiral Jokic had disciplined?

24 A. I hadn't heard about Jovanovic either, so I really don't know.

25 Q. Now, you testified about speaking with Admiral Jokic. Was that

Page 7005












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7006

1 the morning of December 6th?

2 A. To the best of my recollection, that was some time before noon, at

3 about 10.00 or 11.00. I can't be more precise than that. As far as I

4 remember, it was before noon.

5 Q. And was that the only time during the day that you can recall that

6 you spoke with Admiral Jokic on that date?

7 A. On that day, yes, the only time.

8 Q. And what about on October -- I'm sorry, December 7th or 8th? Did

9 you speak with Admiral Jokic on those dates?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Now, when I asked you about your recollection of the time, you

12 said "I can't be more precise than that. As far as I remember, it was

13 before noon." That's what you said. Do you have any log concerning that

14 telephone call? Any log or written notes in relation to that telephone

15 call?

16 A. I can't remember just now, but the more important conversations

17 were recorded in a diary or log of the command post. And so that archive

18 and those documents are stored somewhere, but I don't know about that

19 because I left, I left my duties, and I was replaced by someone else, and

20 then again another person took his place. So I left to take up other

21 duties, so I really can't say now. It was recorded in such and such a

22 logbook, I really don't remember. It is more probable that it was not

23 recorded rather than it was recorded.

24 Q. I'm asking you since we're talking about a telephone conversation

25 and the day's activities of twelve-and-a-half years ago, long time ago.

Page 7007

1 And did you yourself --

2 A. Yes, that's right, long time.

3 Q. And did you yourself keep any diary or any personal records of

4 that call or your activities on that date?

5 A. No. When I left on my first assignment, I used the official

6 logbook for the most part which all officers are supposed to have. And in

7 it, the main events and assignments and decisions are noted there, and

8 that remains as documentation and should not be taken away. So I did all

9 that. I complied with that. When I left my duties, I left behind that

10 official notebook or log or whatever you like. And what my replacement

11 did, I really don't know. But I myself have no written document along

12 those lines that I took with me.

13 Q. So you're basing your memory -- you're basing your testimony

14 strictly on your memory today?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, you recall when you spoke with Admiral Jokic that morning, he

17 seemed upset or angry?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. That there was shelling going on?

20 A. Well, probably because of that. Because that was the basic topic

21 of our conversation, and that's why he phoned me up in the first place,

22 probably to see whether I knew what was going on, whether I had any

23 information as to what was going on.

24 Q. And he was trying to find out at that point what was going on,

25 what the facts were, what was happening?

Page 7008

1 A. Well, I can't be that precise when it comes to every word he

2 uttered. But the sense and gist of the conversation was, as I remember

3 it, that he asked me "what's going on over there?" While I'm conducting

4 negotiations for a truce or cease-fire, all this is going on over there.

5 And I said I didn't know what it was all about. I heard various firing,

6 but we were in a depression, so it was very difficult -- in a hole, so it

7 was very difficult to say where the shooting was coming from. So that's

8 what I remember because it was a very characteristic conversation which

9 stuck in my mind. Now, you're asking me whether it was on the 6th or 7th

10 or 8th, whether I had conversations or whatever, as far as I remember to

11 the best of my recollections I did not, or perhaps it was something that I

12 didn't consider to be essential and didn't remember.

13 But Admiral Jokic, as I said, would come to Mokosica fairly

14 frequently to my command post, and I would report to him about the matters

15 that I was in charge of and would receive permission from him to go ahead

16 with my duties, like the time when he gave me permission to take the

17 yachts, 70 or 80 foreign yachts out of the port of Dubrovnik. We gave

18 them permission to leave the harbour. And then with respect to the

19 national museum, Grude, to have the artifacts returned, things like that.

20 So we communicated more when he came to see me at my command post. I

21 didn't go to the forward command post and report to him in the classical

22 sense as reporting to a superior officer.

23 Q. Did you see Admiral Jokic after December 6th?

24 A. Well, I certainly did see him, but I can't tell you exactly when.

25 I didn't see him that day. And most probably I didn't see him the

Page 7009

1 following day either. I can't remember.

2 Q. Okay. But you do recall that he seemed tense and upset on that

3 morning of December 6th?

4 A. Well, let me put it this way. Perhaps this is a little vulgar

5 when I say it, but he began the conversation by swearing. He said a swear

6 word, so I knew he was angry about what was going on because it wasn't

7 really usual to begin our conversation in that way. So that's why it

8 stayed in my mind.

9 Q. And he was trying to find -- and he was trying to obtain

10 information from you at that time. Correct?

11 A. Yes, he's saying "what's going on over there?" And I said "I

12 don't know." Perhaps he thought that I had some information about it. I

13 really can't know what he thought.

14 MR. WEINER: Thank you. No further questions, sir.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Do you re-examine, Mr. Rodic? We could break now,

16 but it's a question of how long you think you'll need.

17 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, perhaps it would be

18 better if we took a break. But of course, I won't take too long in my

19 re-examination of this witness.

20 JUDGE PARKER: You're thinking of five minutes, ten minutes, or

21 what?

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE PARKER: I think we might finish the witness, then. He can

24 be free. So if you'd like to press on.

25 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

Page 7010

1 Re-examined by Mr. Rodic:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Djurasic, linked to Document D88 that we

3 discussed and the document you were asked about by my learned colleague,

4 the document is entitled "information," and you said that it was the usual

5 way, the customary way of informing subordinate units of the 9th Military

6 Naval Sector, the 9th VPS. Is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. The signatory is the assistant commander for moral guidance and

9 legal affairs, Frigate Captain Mihajlo Zarkovic. That's who signed that

10 document entitled "information."

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. But he is from the --

13 MR. WEINER: Objection, Your Honour. Who is testifying here?

14 JUDGE PARKER: It's an extremely long question, Mr. Rodic, and

15 contains a lot of facts. Perhaps you could get back to asking a question.

16 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did my best to get

17 through this quickly in view of the time. I was just reading what it says

18 on the document. So the assistant commander recorded -- that is recorded.

19 The document is entitled "information." So I wanted to speed matters up

20 that way, so as to speed up the re-examination.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Perhaps you might get to your questions.

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Djurasic, where does all the information flow

24 into, all the information collected about the enemy side?

25 MR. WEINER: I would object, Your Honour. That's outside the

Page 7011

1 scope of cross-examination.

2 JUDGE PARKER: I find it difficult, Mr. Rodic, to see that that is

3 something that does arise from the questions that were put by Mr. Weiner.

4 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Weiner examined the

5 witness in detail on this document and the nature of the contents of this

6 document. And this document contains different types of information,

7 different areas. I asked about information about enemy forces and so on,

8 and the document on page 1, for example, in paragraph 3 from the top

9 contains that type of information.

10 JUDGE PARKER: If you directed to particular and different types

11 of information in the document asking the witness to identify what they

12 were, you might be able to make your point, if that's -- although I don't

13 know that you need to cross-examine to make it. The document is pretty

14 obviously drawing on many different sources of information and dealing

15 with very many topics. Even the Judges of the Trial Chamber can see that

16 just looking at the document.

17 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. Then I will

18 move on to other questions.

19 Q. Mr. Djurasic, in response to a question from my learned friend to

20 the effect that on the 8th of December, two officers on their way to

21 Dubrovnik were passing by, by your command post in Mokosica on their way

22 to do some filming. You said it's true.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you remember what exactly did they say about their mission?

25 A. Radojkovic, Bosko, Lieutenant Colonel, was in the same class with

Page 7012

1 me, and there was another officer with him, told me that they were going

2 to film the damage incurred to Dubrovnik during the shelling. They had a

3 videocamera. The Croatian side allowed it, and they went off.

4 Q. Did they tell you who sent them on that mission?

5 A. I suppose it was the command of the 9th naval sector. It was just

6 my supposition.

7 Q. Do you remember how they were dressed on the 8th of December?

8 A. They were in civilian clothes.

9 Q. On their way back to Dubrovnik, did they go the same way? Did

10 they pass by you again?

11 A. Yes, they did. They waited for transportation and left back for

12 the command post. We had a short conversation. I remember asking

13 Boskovic, "what's the situation?" He said "there is damage, but it's not

14 that bad." That's what he said. And I didn't go any further than that.

15 Q. What was your impression when he told you about the damage that he

16 had seen there? Did he speak about or describe the damage?

17 A. I cannot remember exactly now. I know that it didn't sound

18 dramatic the way he said it because otherwise I would have remembered.

19 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, while you were at the Mokosica

20 command post, you referred at one point to the crisis staff when you were

21 responding to my learned friend. Tell me, what was the crisis staff in

22 Mokosica all about? Who was in it? What were its tasks? Who organised

23 it?

24 A. It was already in existence when I arrived in Mokosica. We didn't

25 want to change the name, but we adjusted its operation to what I believed

Page 7013

1 to be the priorities. And the people who were there, with a few

2 exceptions, such as Mr. Bonic, Mr. Zdravko Bosnan, and some others whose

3 names I don't recall now held a meeting together with me, and at that

4 first meeting we determined -- we identified our priorities, what had to

5 be done first.

6 Q. You said with a few exceptions, did anyone from the previous

7 crisis staff leave when the army arrived?

8 A. I believe -- I believe I gathered from their conversation that

9 some people had left. And I let it go because I didn't want to have too

10 many people on the crisis staff.

11 Q. All right. Tell me, did anyone on the crisis staff in Mokosica

12 with whom you cooperated and where you worked wear the uniform of the

13 Croatian forces?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did that crisis staff in Mokosica had any units of the Croatian

16 forces understood its control or command or did it cooperate with any?

17 A. Not that I know of.

18 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Djurasic.

19 Your Honours, I have finished. Thank you.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Rodic.

21 Colonel, may we thank you for your presence here and the evidence

22 you've given. You'll be pleased to know that you may now go and go back

23 to your home and continue with your life. So thank you, indeed.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, too.

25 JUDGE PARKER: We will have a break now to enable -- because of

Page 7014

1 the unusual hours we're sitting today, we will resume at 1.15 to give

2 people a chance to have a quick bite to eat. And could I indicate that we

3 expect to finish, depending just where the evidence of a particular

4 witness is, we would expect to finish at about 4.00 this afternoon.

5 So we'll resume at 1.15.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 1.20 p.m.

9 MS. SOMERS: Your Honours, before we start, if I can just assist

10 the Chamber on P19 this morning, to give you the times that were involved,

11 it might be helpful to direct you. It was 6.10 -- between 6.10 and 7.24

12 on that piece of video. Thank you.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. It will now be on the record.

14 The next witness, Mr. Rodic or Mr. Petrovic.

15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence calls

16 Tomislav Jovanovic.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, Mr. Jovanovic. Would you take the

20 card --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

22 JUDGE PARKER: -- and make the affirmation, please.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.

Page 7015

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 Examined by Mr. Petrovic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Jovanovic.

8 A. Good afternoon.

9 Q. I should like you to tell us your full name.

10 A. Tomislav Jovanovic.

11 Q. Can you tell us, please, Mr. Jovanovic, what you are by profession

12 at present.

13 A. At present, I'm a pensioner.

14 Q. What was your profession previously?

15 A. Previously, I was an officer of the JNA.

16 Q. And what rank did you hold when you retired?

17 A. I was colonel.

18 Q. Tell us, please, something about your education. What education

19 have you had? What schools have you graduated from?

20 A. I graduated from primary and elementary school, and a school for

21 NCOs, and then the academy for the ground forces, land forces, and finally

22 the command staff academy.

23 Q. Could you repeat the military schools you graduated from.

24 A. I graduated from the school for subofficers or noncommissioned

25 officers, and then I went to the military academy of the land forces and

Page 7016

1 the command staff academy.

2 Q. Thank you. Tell us, please, briefly, where you served during your

3 military career.

4 A. During my military career, I served in practically all the

5 republics of the former Yugoslavia with the exception of Macedonia.

6 Q. At one point in time, did you serve in Montenegro?

7 A. Yes, I did. And that was during the latter period prior to my

8 retirement.

9 Q. Please tell us, where did you serve in Montenegro and since when?

10 A. I served in Montenegro from 1983 working at the command of the 9th

11 Naval Sector until 1996 when I retired.

12 Q. From 1983 to 1996, what duties did you discharge in the 9th Naval

13 Sector?

14 A. I was chief of engineering.

15 Q. Tell us, please, what engineering units were in existence within

16 the framework of the 9th Naval Sector? Let us limit ourselves to years

17 1990 and 1991.

18 A. In the 9th Naval Sector, there was one engineering unit, and it

19 was the engineering battalion.

20 Q. That engineering battalion, did it have a special emblem or a

21 number?

22 A. It was the 130th Engineering Battalion.

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown D46.

24 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, please look at the ELMO. This is a diagram of the

25 9th Naval Sector. And please tell us if you see your unit in this

Page 7017

1 diagram.

2 A. Yes, I see it.

3 Q. Please show it on the overhead projector.

4 A. [Indicates]

5 Q. Yes, thank you.

6 Please look at the other units enumerated under the 9th Naval

7 Sector. Can you confirm that they were also part of this sector in autumn

8 1991? Do you recognise them?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 What was your role as chief of engineers of the 9th Naval Sector

12 in the period when you occupied this post?

13 A. Within the framework of the 9th Naval Sector, my duties included

14 making proposals for the use of the engineers' unit to my commander,

15 taking care of its training, of the personnel and officers in the unit.

16 Because I was the direct link between the commander and the unit, and the

17 unit was subordinated to the sector commander.

18 Q. Tell us, please, did you perform these duties in October,

19 November, December 1991 as well?

20 A. Yes. I discharged these duties in the said months.

21 Q. Tell us, what is the composition of an engineers battalion, that

22 particular, 130th?

23 A. The battalion consisted of the command, the first pioneer, the

24 second pioneer companies, the engineers company, a scouting platoon,

25 communications section, and logistical platoon.

Page 7018

1 Q. Thank you. Tell us, please, how is an engineers battalion used,

2 on whose orders?

3 A. The use of an engineers battalion is made upon the orders of the

4 commander, in this specific case, the commander of the 9th Naval Sector.

5 Q. Tell us, please, can the battalion commander use the units of this

6 engineers battalion in circumvention of the orders of the commander of the

7 9th Naval Sector?

8 A. No. He could through me, but I would have to inform the commander

9 in advance and make my proposal on how to use the battalion

10 professionally.

11 Q. Could a chief of staff instead of the commander issue an order to

12 use the battalion?

13 A. Yes, he could.

14 Q. In autumn 1991, who was the commander of the 9th Naval Sector?

15 A. The commander was Admiral Miodrag Jokic.

16 Q. In the same period, who was chief of staff of the 9th Naval

17 Sector?

18 A. The chief of staff of the 9th Naval Sector was Milan Zec, captain

19 of warship.

20 Q. As part of the regular activities of the command of the 9th Naval

21 Sector, are reporting sessions organised?

22 A. Yes, usually at the end of the day.

23 Q. Who attends these sessions, these briefings?

24 A. Unit commanders.

25 Q. You say unit commanders. Which units?

Page 7019

1 A. Those subordinated to the 9th Naval Sector, and representing the

2 command, there would be the commander or chief of staff and operative

3 officers and chiefs of arms and services.

4 Q. What did these briefings look like in the 9th Naval Sector?

5 A. The commander of the largest unit would begin. Briefings would be

6 made verbally, followed by written reports.

7 Q. After the reports made by commanders of subordinated units, what

8 would happen at the briefing?

9 A. After reports were received from subordinated units, the decision

10 and orders would be issued for the following day.

11 Q. By whom?

12 A. By the commander of the 9th Naval Sector or by the chief of staff

13 or the most senior officer present at the briefing.

14 Q. Do you know if the 9th Naval Sector sent any reports to anyone

15 else, regular, daily reports, combat reports or operative reports? For

16 instance, in the period we are discussing, to whom would such reports be

17 sent?

18 A. The command of the 9th Naval Sector would draw up an operative

19 report and send it to its superior command. In this instance, it would be

20 the 2nd Operations Group, the General Staff, and their naval district.

21 Q. Who chaired these briefings at the 9th Naval Sector?

22 A. Usually the commander of the sector, the chief of staff, or, if

23 they were absent, somebody from the operations section.

24 Q. Do you know what the 2nd Operational Group is?

25 A. That is a temporary category envisioned to encompass the units in

Page 7020

1 the territory where we were located. It commanded through the 9th Naval

2 Sector and all the other units subordinated to that command.

3 Q. Another matter, if you know: How was this unit mobilised, the

4 130th Engineers Battalion?

5 A. It was formed through the organs of command of the 9th Naval

6 Sector following mobilisation and through the battalion command which

7 actually carried out the mobilisation.

8 Q. Is it the case that at one point in the course of the autumn 1991,

9 some combat operations began, carried out by the 9th Naval Sector?

10 A. I didn't quite understand this.

11 Q. Is it the case that in autumn 1991, the 9th Naval Sector carried

12 out certain combat operations?

13 A. It did. After the mobilisation was completed, when the units were

14 mobilised, an incident occurred involving the Croatian Army or provoked by

15 the Croatian Army followed by an attack.

16 Q. In October, November, December, where was the command of the 9th

17 Naval Sector?

18 A. During the combat operations, the command of the 9th Naval Sector

19 was in Grude for a short time. And after that, it was located in Kupari.

20 Q. In that same period, October, November, December, where was the

21 command of the 130th Engineers Battalion?

22 A. It was behind the first defence lines quartered in Mlini, Astarea

23 Hotel, Astarea Hotel.

24 Q. In Mlini, at the place where the battalion command was, was the

25 supply of equipment and materiel also organised?

Page 7021

1 A. Yes, it was. Everything we needed to conduct these combat

2 operations that we didn't have on the spot was supplied from warehouses.

3 Q. Is it the case that there was a field warehouse of materiel and

4 equipment organised at that very location?

5 A. Yes, a storage place was organised for mines and explosives, and

6 it was secured. Ignition devices, according to regulation, were placed on

7 one side, and mines and explosives on the other.

8 Q. In October, November, December 1991, what were the most frequent

9 tasks assigned to your unit, the 130th Engineers Battalion?

10 A. The tasks of the engineers units are to build and maintain and

11 repair roads, to build obstacles, for instance, lay mines, and to build

12 fortifications. Those are the three main tasks.

13 Q. Tell me something about road repairs that you mentioned. Do you

14 know of a place where the road was damaged in this period?

15 A. I do. First of all, at the beginning of our combat operations,

16 the road was damaged close to the hydropower stations -- station called

17 Plat in the area of Kupari. Our battalion followed the troops that went

18 through this area in the course of combat operations. Infantry units

19 could circumvent this section of the road, but other units that had

20 vehicles could not.

21 Q. At one point, did you receive orders to repair the road in that

22 stretch?

23 A. Yes, we received orders to repair the road as soon as possible so

24 that units on the front line could be supplied with food, ammunition, and

25 all the other necessities.

Page 7022

1 Q. Tell us, who issued orders for the road to be repaired?

2 A. The sector commander did.

3 Q. Tell us, please, whether there was any firing?

4 A. Yes, when the engineers unit came to repair that section of the

5 road, it was targeted from the area of Kupari. And at the beginning, the

6 shells fell along the coastal belt, and the people doing the work thought

7 that there wasn't -- they didn't have the weapons to jeopardise the lives

8 of the people engaged in the repair work. However, when the shells flew

9 over the heads of the people repairing the roads, when they saw that

10 happening, they stopped the repairs. And when it grew dark, they

11 continued so that the road was, in fact, reconstructed.

12 Q. You told us a moment ago that the order to repair the road was

13 issued by the sector commander. Who was the sector commander at that

14 time?

15 A. It was Admiral Miodrag Jokic.

16 Q. Was the road repaired anywhere else during this period, on any

17 other section?

18 A. Yes. As our units advanced, so the Croatian units destroyed the

19 roads to prevent the troops from reaching them. So the roads had to be

20 repaired in the area of Brgat, or rather towards the Dubrovacka Rijeka

21 area, and later on around Mokosica, and later on in depth around Slano.

22 Q. Tell us, please, in the area of Mokosica specifically, was the

23 road repaired there?

24 A. Yes, the road was repaired there, and we had losses of technical

25 equipment; that is to say, the loader, the mechanical device, the loader

Page 7023

1 that was working there, it was known as the 160, and the man manning the

2 machine stepped on a mine with his front and rear wheel, so he was -- it

3 was blown up and damaged. So I want to say that in addition to the

4 destruction done to the road, the surrounding area was mined. Anti-tank

5 and anti-infantry mines.

6 Q. And who laid these mines?

7 A. The mines were laid by the soldiers belonging to the Republic of

8 Croatia.

9 Q. Did your unit have any other assignments to give assistance to the

10 civilian population on the territory they were in?

11 A. Since the engineers battalion was situated in a place called

12 Mlini, not far from Kupari, in the Astarea Hotel, elderly people remained

13 there, elderly men and women were still there, and so were some children.

14 So in the place we took our meals, and we had to supply our own meals for

15 the battalion, and we did the cooking within the battalion and didn't have

16 to rely on any logistics for the unit's food, so we fed the people who

17 found themselves there. They had no other means of livelihood or way of

18 coming by food.

19 Q. Tell me, please, during this period of time when we're talking

20 about October, November, and December of 1991, in your particular unit,

21 what was the situation like as far as discipline was concerned?

22 A. The engineers unit is a highly disciplined unit, especially since

23 it works with explosive devices and construction machinery, engineering

24 machinery. So they are very well used to a high level of discipline, and

25 there were no transgressions that would have had an adverse effect on the

Page 7024

1 population, anything like that.

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Might the witness be shown Document

3 D61 now, please.

4 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, would you take a look at the document, and point 2

5 in particular, and the first line of that paragraph, read it out.

6 A. Yes, I've done that.

7 Q. And tell me, please, is this a document dated the 5th of December

8 1991?

9 A. This refers to repairs done in the Slano area, the Slano Road, and

10 the section of the road at Sitnica.

11 Q. Is this in fact a report of the command of the 9th VPS dated the

12 5th of December 1991?

13 A. What did you say?

14 Q. Is this a command report? Is this a report by the command of the

15 9th VPS dated the 5th of December 1991? Take a look at it, please. Take

16 a look at the entire document before you, first, please. Is it a regular

17 combat report?

18 A. Yes, it says 1700 hours on the 5th of December 1991.

19 Q. Thank you. Tell us, now, please, the work going on mentioned as

20 being performed by the engineers unit, does it correspond to your

21 recollections of what the unit was engaged in during that period of time?

22 A. Yes, it does correspond to that, especially construction of the

23 Sitnica section of the road on the territory of Montenegro. A road was

24 being built to establish better connection between -- because there was no

25 view from Leotar, so a relay station was positioned there.

Page 7025

1 Q. The members of your unit, or rather, the 130th engineers

2 battalion, those men, at the beginning of December, that means, the 4th,

3 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th of December, were they working on any engineering

4 work, construction work, in the vicinity of the town of Dubrovnik itself?

5 A. Well, not in the immediate vicinity of Dubrovnik, no. We weren't

6 working there. The construction work was being done mostly at the request

7 of the subordinate units. I cannot remember all the details involved.

8 Q. At around the 6th of December, perhaps the 5th or 7th of December,

9 round about that time, was the engineers battalion engaged in any work at

10 Brgat or Bosanka or Mokosica or some other area like that as far as you

11 can remember?

12 A. In the region of Brgat and Bosanka, no, it was not. I don't think

13 it was. Whereas we had completed our work in the Mokosica area when our

14 vehicle was destroyed.

15 Q. Thank you. Tell us where on the 6th of December most of the

16 members of your 130th Engineers Battalion were.

17 A. Most of the men in the 130th Engineers Battalion were located in

18 the region around the place called Mlini.

19 Q. And you yourself, Mr. Jovanovic, where were you, if you remember,

20 on that 6th of December 1991?

21 A. On that day, the 6th of December 1991, I was at the forward

22 command post in Kupari.

23 Q. In the course of that day, did you receive any orders?

24 A. Yes. In the course of that day, I did receive an order from the

25 duty officer up at the forward command post, and an order coming from the

Page 7026

1 chief of staff to prepare a certain quantity of explosives and to bring

2 them to the Zarkovica area.

3 Q. Tell us, please, you said that an order had come in from the chief

4 of staff. Who was that?

5 A. That was Warship Captain Milan Zec.

6 Q. Tell us, please, specifically what Captain Milan Zec ordered you

7 to do. What was the order he gave you?

8 A. I received the order from the duty officer, and he told me that I

9 was to prepare explosives, explosive devices, half a kilogram -- packaged

10 in half-kilogram lots, a slow-burning fuse, and to give it to a unit to

11 bring into Zarkovica. So that's how it was.

12 Q. What did you do once you had received that order? What did you

13 do?

14 A. When I received the order, I went to the battalion command where

15 the battalion was deployed, and I conveyed the order to the battalion

16 commander. I told him what we were supposed to do. And then we started

17 preparing the devices that had been requested by the chief of staff. So

18 that once we had got all these items together, we loaded them up into a

19 vehicle --

20 Q. Yes, we'll come to that. Thank you.

21 Tell me, please, what did you use these explosive devices for, the

22 ones you were ordered to prepare?

23 A. Well, I assumed that that materiel would be used to destroy some

24 firepower positions targeting our own forces at Zarkovica from the Srdj

25 area.

Page 7027

1 Q. So with these packages of plastic explosives that you had, what

2 type of target would be best destroyed using that type of explosive?

3 A. It wasn't plastic explosives. They were ordinary explosives.

4 Q. All right. Ordinary explosives.

5 A. Well, probably they were supposed to destroy the firepower

6 positions.

7 MR. WEINER: I object.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

9 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, his previous answer is "I assume that

10 the materiel would be used." He says that on line 22, page 51. And

11 again, "probably they were used." He's just making assumptions or

12 speculating. If he doesn't know, he shouldn't be allowed to answer.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic, if you want to press the matter,

14 you'd better see if there is actual knowledge.

15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes.

16 Q. Once you received the order to prepare this materiel, did you know

17 what the materiel would be used for, what purpose?

18 A. I did not know what it was going to be used for. I could only

19 assume.

20 Q. And what did you assume?

21 MR. WEINER: Objection, Your Honour.

22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may we hear what the

23 witness assumed? I don't see any objection there.

24 JUDGE PARKER: What is the relevance of what this witness assumed?

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] The relevance, Your Honour, is that

Page 7028

1 he is a professional in the field of explosive devices, so he could know,

2 he is well-placed to know what such packages of explosives could be used

3 for. That's what we're dealing with, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE PARKER: If you want to get from him what were the possible

5 uses of such packaged explosives, go ahead. But not to assume what the

6 use actually was.

7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that was never my

8 intention.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Well, your question would have guided him in the

10 wrong direction then, Mr. Petrovic.

11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Witness, so what would packaged explosives of this kind be used

13 for?

14 A. If we had packaged explosives like that, we could use them to

15 destroy bunkers, for instance.

16 Q. How long did it take you to prepare all this materiel, all these

17 explosive devices, to get them together?

18 A. Well, we needed about one to two hours to get the explosive

19 devices together.

20 Q. Tell us, please, once you'd completed your preparations, what did

21 you do next?

22 A. When we completed our preparations, we placed the explosive

23 devices in the vehicle. The vehicle was a Pinzgauer, and the men along

24 with it, and we started out towards Srdj. And we reached Zarkovica.

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 7029

1 Q. And what happened when you reached Zarkovica?

2 A. When we reached Zarkovica, we were stopped by two soldiers, and

3 they said to us -- they asked us where we were going, in fact. We said we

4 were on our way, that we had received orders from the chief of staff to

5 take the explosives -- to bring in the explosive devices. And the two

6 soldiers said that those explosives, the ones we had with us, were no

7 longer needed. And that we could take them back.

8 Q. And what did you do?

9 A. I listened to what the soldiers told us, and we returned those

10 explosives. So the explosives that we got together were never used.

11 Q. And what time of day, or rather I withdraw that question. Tell

12 me, first, how far you'd gone, what point had you reached? Had you

13 actually reached Zarkovica on that day at all?

14 A. We reached -- we almost reached Zarkovica, not quite. We were a

15 little in front of Zarkovica.

16 Q. And what time of day it was, if you happen to recall? What time

17 was it? I mean, when you approached Zarkovica.

18 A. It was in the afternoon, sometime between 1400 hours and 1500

19 hours, roughly.

20 Q. How do you know that it was in the afternoon?

21 A. Because during that period of time, it began to grow dark.

22 Q. Did you at any point on the 6th of December 1991 go to the

23 observation post on Zarkovica?

24 A. No, I did not.

25 Q. On the 6th of December 1991, were you at any time in Brgat or

Page 7030

1 Bosanka?

2 A. No, no, apart from the time when I went there with explosives.

3 Q. On the 6th of December 1991, did you at any point talk to

4 Admiral Miodrag Jokic?

5 A. No.

6 Q. On the 6th of December 1991, did you receive any orders from

7 Admiral Miodrag Jokic?

8 A. No, I did not.

9 Q. After the 6th of December, did Admiral Miodrag Jokic interrogate

10 you on the events of the 6th of December 1991?

11 MR. WEINER: Objection.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

13 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, three questions in a row leading in

14 relation to Admiral Jokic. There is no testimony that Admiral Jokic

15 contacted him on those dates, spoke to him on those dates, and there's no

16 testimony that Admiral Jokic interrogated him on that date. This evidence

17 is not relevant.

18 JUDGE PARKER: I don't see it on that basis that I can take a

19 view, that the Chamber can take a view that it is not relevant to the

20 Defence. It may not be relevant to the Prosecution case. But the

21 question can be asked, and we will learn the relevance perhaps in due

22 course.

23 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, Mr. Petrovic.

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 7031

1 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, after the 6th of December, did Admiral Jokic ever

2 interrogate you on the events on Srdj of the 6th of December?

3 A. Admiral Jokic and I never discussed it, and he never asked me

4 anything about it.

5 Q. Did you ever give a written statement to Admiral Jokic concerning

6 the events of the 6th of December 1991?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you have any relations with Captain Vladimir Kovacevic? Did

9 you have any connection with the events on Srdj of the 6th of December

10 1991?

11 A. I had no contact at all, unless you mean the previous days when I

12 went to inspect the unit and see how well it was fortified.

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no

14 further questions.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

16 Mr. Weiner.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Weiner:

18 Q. Colonel, you were contacted on December 6th by the duty officer.

19 A. Right.

20 Q. And he told you that Captain Zec had told him to contact you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And did he -- and did they say at that time that Captain Zec was

23 on Zarkovica at the observation post, if you recall?

24 A. I don't recall.

25 Q. Did they say if Captain Kovacevic was there at the time, if you

Page 7032

1 recall?

2 A. I suppose he was at his command post, but I don't know where he

3 was in relation to his subordinated unit.

4 Q. Did they say that Colonel Kovacevic was there at the time?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And you weren't up there, so you really can't tell who was up

7 there at the time? You just received a phone call. You can't say for

8 sure who was up there.

9 A. I can't.

10 Q. And were you told to come to Zarkovica with the materiel?

11 A. Yes. The order was that the engineers unit should come with the

12 explosives that we had prepared.

13 Q. And you actually went there with those explosives later in the

14 afternoon?

15 A. Yes. I went there personally.

16 Q. And you were supposed to be there except for being stopped in

17 transit?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. And then you testified you never got to Zarkovica.

20 A. I got to Zarkovica, but the explosives and the rest that I was

21 carrying was never used. We returned it back to the unit, to the field

22 storage where we had taken it from.

23 Q. You just stated that you got to Zarkovica. Did you actually go on

24 to the mountain? Did you walk into the command post?

25 A. No, I did not.

Page 7033

1 Q. So you weren't present -- since you weren't on Zarkovica, you

2 weren't present for any of the telephone calls or radio communications

3 that were being made from Zarkovica during that afternoon?

4 A. No, no.

5 Q. And you weren't present for any calls that Captain Zec made from

6 Zarkovica that afternoon?

7 A. Could you repeat that question, please.

8 Q. Since you weren't on Zarkovica at the command post, you weren't

9 present for any telephone calls that Captain Zec made from that location?

10 A. I certainly wasn't.

11 Q. So you don't know what, if anything, Captain Zec or the other

12 officers said to Admiral Jokic during that afternoon from Zarkovica?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. You don't know if Admiral Jokic was told that you were on the way

15 to Zarkovica?

16 A. I don't know that either.

17 Q. You don't know that Admiral Jokic was told that you'd be on

18 Zarkovica very shortly?

19 A. I don't.

20 Q. You don't know who else on that command post was told that you

21 were on the way?

22 A. No, I don't.

23 Q. And you don't know who those people, who were told that you were

24 on the way, spoke to?

25 A. No.

Page 7034

1 Q. So several people might have believed that you were on Zarkovica

2 or on the way to Zarkovica?

3 A. They could have.

4 Q. Now, you weren't the only Colonel Jovanovic within the 2nd

5 Operational Group. There were others.

6 A. No, there weren't any others.

7 Q. Well, was there a Colonel Miodrag Jovanovic? Miroslav Jovanovic?

8 Are you familiar with him?

9 A. No, he was not a colonel. He was a major.

10 Q. Okay. And what about the Jovanovic --

11 A. And there was also a Colonel Vojislav Jovanovic. And I'm

12 Tomislav Jovanovic.

13 Q. The other Jovanovic, where was he located?

14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since there are three

15 Jovanovics, if that is the drift of the questions, could the Prosecutor

16 please name these three persons exactly and refer to an exact period of

17 time for which this is relevant so as not to confuse the witness.

18 JUDGE PARKER: I think the time, Mr. Weiner, is relevant. The

19 witness may well be able to tell us names as well as yourself.

20 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

21 Q. Where was Colonel Vojislav Jovanovic on December 6th, if you know?

22 What unit was he assigned to?

23 A. I could not tell you where he was. But I believe he had come from

24 the Territorial Defence of Montenegro on some sort of special mission that

25 involved certain assignments and duties, but I'm not really aware of what

Page 7035

1 assignments. He was not part of the 9th Naval Sector.

2 Q. Was he the Jovanovic who used the nickname Kurd, Kurd Jovanovic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you recently speak with another witness, a Slobodan Novakovic,

5 where you two discussed this Kurd Jovanovic?

6 A. No, we did not discuss him. He was a simple soldier in the

7 Territorial Defence, so we didn't discuss these things.

8 Q. Did you recently stay in the same facility as Defence witness

9 Slobodan Novakovic within the past week?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. And while there, did you speak with Mr. Novakovic?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. And did you discuss this, the matters of this case or Dubrovnik

14 with him?

15 A. Yes, we did talk in general, but nothing special.

16 Q. Okay. And do you recall speaking to him about this other

17 Jovanovic, Tomislav.

18 A. I am Tomislav.

19 Q. I'm sorry. The other Novakovic, Vojislav. Jovanovic, I'm sorry.

20 The other one, Kurd Jovanovic.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, are you certain, sir, that you weren't on Zarkovica on

23 December 6th?

24 A. Apart from bringing the explosives, I was not there for sure.

25 Q. And you're certain you weren't at the observation post on December

Page 7036

1 6th at Zarkovica?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, Defence counsel has submitted an exhibit, D71, which

4 indicates that at the observation post, he, which is referring to

5 Captain Soldo, saw the commander, Vladimir Kovacevic, captain of the

6 battleship vessel, Milan Zec, Colonel Gavrilo Kovacevic and

7 Colonel Jovanovic? So my question to you is again: Are you sure you were

8 not on at the observation post on December 6th?

9 A. I wasn't there.

10 Q. Okay. I'd like to move on to a few other subjects. Maybe we'll

11 come back to that.

12 Now, you indicated that your unit was mainly involved in road

13 repair. Is that correct?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. And that you had to repair damaged roads because the military

16 needed the roadways.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So road repair for your unit was a military activity.

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. And you needed those roadways to transport food, ammunition, and

21 supplies to the troops. Isn't that correct, sir?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. And you also indicated that your engineering unit was highly

24 disciplined.

25 A. Yes, that's what I said.

Page 7037

1 Q. And you said because of that, there was no adverse effects on the

2 local population.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You also indicated that -- or let me ask you, you know as a career

5 soldier that discipline must be maintained in armies. Correct?

6 A. Certainly.

7 Q. And people must follow orders; soldiers must follow the orders

8 that they're given.

9 A. [No audible response]

10 Q. Otherwise if orders aren't being followed, you just have anarchy?

11 A. Certainly.

12 Q. And you use discipline to ensure that orders are followed.

13 A. [No verbal response]

14 Q. And you use discipline to ensure -- I'm sorry, your last answer

15 didn't come through. Could you repeat that. The question was: You use

16 discipline to ensure that orders are followed.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And if orders are not followed, you have to deal with it, whether

19 punish or take some action against a person.

20 A. Of course.

21 Q. Otherwise, the lack of discipline continues.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And if you don't punish an act or if you don't punish a crime, it

24 will continue.

25 A. Yes.

Page 7038

1 Q. And others will follow suit and commit the same crimes or acts

2 seeing that no one else is being punished.

3 You nodded your head yes. Could you --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And disobeying orders is a serious violation.

6 A. Certainly.

7 Q. So if someone is told not to shell a certain area and they do

8 that, that's a serious violation. That's a disobeyment of orders.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And if someone disobeys that type of order, you must act

11 immediately so it doesn't happen again.

12 A. Right.

13 Q. Otherwise, it will continue to happen.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Were you aware that the Old Town was shelled in October of 1991?

16 A. I heard that it had been shelled. I didn't see it with my own

17 eyes.

18 Q. And you heard it had been shelled by the JNA in October of 1991?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And did you hear of anyone being punished or disciplined for

21 shelling the Old Town in October of 1991?

22 A. I didn't hear that anybody was punished.

23 Q. And were you aware that the Old Town was shelled in October of --

24 I'm sorry, in November of 1991 by the JNA?

25 A. I cannot give you an answer with any certainty. But from that

Page 7039

1 area, that's also something I heard, our positions were shelled, the

2 positions on Mount Zarkovica and the positions where Captain Kovacevic was

3 located. Rumour had it that it was shelled from Dubrovnik.

4 Q. Okay. Once again, my question is: Did you hear that the Old Town

5 of Dubrovnik, just the Old Town, was shelled in November of 1991?

6 A. I heard that it had been shelled, but I didn't see anything, and I

7 cannot tell you anything with great certainty.

8 Q. That's fine. And as a result of that shelling, did you hear of

9 anyone being punished or disciplined, any JNA officers being punished or

10 disciplined, after that shelling in November of 1991?

11 A. No, I did not.

12 Q. And sir, were you aware that the Old Town of Dubrovnik was shelled

13 on December 6th, 1991, by the JNA?

14 A. Yes. I knew because I learned from my friends.

15 Q. From where you were located on the outskirts of Zarkovica, could

16 you see the smoke and the flames coming out of the Old Town?

17 A. No, I could not see because it is much lower than the facility at

18 Srdj.

19 Q. Now, you mentioned -- well, let me ask you one more question

20 before we get off that. Did you hear of anyone being punished or

21 disciplined after the December 6th shelling of the Old Town by the JNA?

22 A. I did not hear anything about that.

23 Q. Were you aware that the unit commanded by Captain Kovacevic was

24 the unit that shelled the Old Town on December 6th, 1991? Were you aware

25 of that?

Page 7040

1 A. I heard from others.

2 Q. And did you also hear or did you also learn that approximately two

3 weeks after the shelling of the Old Town on December 6th, about two weeks

4 later, on or about December 22nd, 1991, Captain Kovacevic was promoted?

5 A. I don't remember that.

6 Q. Okay. Now, you testified today that the 9th Naval Sector sent

7 reports up to the 2nd Operational Group. Correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who was the commander of the 2nd Operational Group?

10 A. The commander of the 2nd Operational Group was Pavle Strugar,

11 General.

12 Q. And who was his chief of staff?

13 A. You mean at the operational group?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. I think it was General Radomir Damjanovic, if I'm not mistaken.

16 Q. Thank you. And you also said that the 2nd Operational Group was a

17 temporary creation; that's what you testified to. You used the word

18 "temporary."

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And by the word "temporary," you don't mean a number of days or a

21 number of weeks.

22 A. No, sorry. I meant the temporary personnel.

23 Q. And by "temporary," it could have been months, it could be years

24 or a year that these people were in this operation?

25 A. Yes, it could.

Page 7041

1 Q. Because as you know, the 2nd Operational Group was in existence in

2 October of -- let's start off, September of 1991?

3 A. Right.

4 Q. October of 1991? November of 1991? December of 1991?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. So we're not talking about something temporary just a few days or

7 a few weeks?

8 A. No.

9 Q. In fact, I'd like to show you a document, Document D47.

10 MR. WEINER: Could the witness be shown that, please.

11 Q. Could you look at that document, please.

12 Sir, you've had a chance to look at the document. That document

13 is to the command of the 9th VPS from Commander Lieutenant Colonel Pavle

14 Strugar. And in that document, he issues a number of orders.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And he issues those orders to the command of the 9th VPS?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. And the commander of the 9th VPS is Admiral Jokic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So this letter involves Pavle Strugar on the 18th of November 1991

21 issuing orders to Admiral Jokic.

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. And it indicates one of the orders is not to fire on the Old Town,

24 order number 4.

25 A. Yes.

Page 7042

1 Q. That order wasn't followed in December of 1991. Correct?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. And that order wasn't followed in November of 1991.

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Nor was that order followed in October of 1991.

6 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Weiner. But the

7 order is dated the 18th of November.

8 MR. WEINER: All right.

9 JUDGE PARKER: You can hardly say it's not followed in October.

10 MR. WEINER: Sorry.

11 Q. Were you aware of orders in the autumn of 1991, other than this

12 one, not to fire upon the Old Town?

13 A. Yes, the order from the superior command was that the town of

14 Dubrovnik should not be targeted.

15 Q. And those orders were not followed, as you've testified, in

16 October and November of 1991?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And as you also testified, no one was punished or disciplined for

19 those violations.

20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness said that

21 he did not know whether anybody was punished or disciplined.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not aware of whether anybody was

23 disciplined or punished.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

25 MR. WEINER: That's fine. Sorry about that, Your Honour.

Page 7043

1 Q. And as you stated, you were not aware of anyone ever being

2 punished or disciplined for violations of those orders?

3 A. I'm not aware of it, no.

4 Q. And you weren't just a minor soldier; you were a unit commander.

5 You're a colonel and the commander of the engineering unit at that time?

6 A. I was a colonel and chief of the engineers. The commander of the

7 engineers unit was somebody else.

8 Q. You were chief of the engineers. And as chief of the engineers

9 and a colonel, you were not aware of anyone being punished for violating

10 the order of not to bomb the Old Town?

11 A. I don't remember that.

12 Q. When you say you don't remember that, you don't recall or you

13 don't remember anyone being punished. I want the transcript to be --

14 A. That's right.

15 MR. WEINER: Could the witness be shown Exhibit D44, please.

16 Your Honour, it's a long document. It's close to break time.

17 Could the witness be allowed to read the document over the break, and we

18 could use a quick break at this time.

19 JUDGE PARKER: That would be a more efficient use of time. We

20 will have the 20-minute break now --

21 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE PARKER: -- Mr. Weiner.

23 --- Recess taken at 2.40 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 3.08 p.m.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

Page 7044

1 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Good afternoon, Colonel.

3 A. Good afternoon.

4 Q. Thank you. Did you get a chance to look at that document?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. And I just want to go through it very quickly. It's a document to

7 the General Staff of the Republic of Yugoslavia from the commander of the

8 2nd Operational Group, then Commander Sokic.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And Commander Sokic says that he has decided upon a plan of

11 attack?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And he lists the assignments of the units that will be involved in

14 the command of that attack which are also units of the 2nd Operational

15 Group?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. And the 9th VPS is given certain assignments and tasks as part of

18 that attack.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Because the 9th VPS was subordinated to the 2nd Operational Group?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. That's all.

23 Just a couple other quick matters, and we'll be finished. Now, on

24 December 6th when you were called for certain materiel, certain types of

25 bombs, it took you some time to put it together. You said it took you one

Page 7045

1 to two hours to put the explosives together?

2 A. Yes. That's right.

3 Q. Were you surprised by the sudden call for these explosives?

4 A. Yes, to a certain extent.

5 Q. Well, you didn't anticipate the need for these explosives. They

6 weren't ready and available.

7 A. They weren't, no.

8 Q. In fact, you were surprised by the military action that was

9 occurring on December 6th, weren't you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You weren't aware ahead of time that there would be a military

12 occurring on December 6th? You weren't aware on the 4th or 5th of

13 December?

14 A. No. No, I didn't.

15 Q. Now, speaking of December 6th, were you ever ordered to appear

16 before the command of the 2nd Operational Group or appear before General

17 Strugar to be interviewed concerning the -- your activities on December

18 6th?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did anyone from the 2nd Operational Group ever question you or

21 members of your unit about the activities of December 6th?

22 A. No, nobody.

23 Q. Did anyone from the 2nd Operational Group ever question you as to

24 why you were being called to Zarkovica? Why you had been called to

25 Zarkovica on December 6th?

Page 7046

1 A. No.

2 Q. And did anyone from the command of the 2nd Operational Group ever

3 question you about the actions of the engineering unit on the 6th of

4 December 1991?

5 A. No.

6 MR. WEINER: May I have one moment, please, Your Honour.

7 [Prosecution counsel confer]

8 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Your Honour. No further questions.

9 Thank you, sir.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a few questions.

12 Re-examined by Mr. Petrovic:

13 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, during that period we have been discussing,

14 October, November, December, did you, for instance, in December hear that

15 Croatian forces were firing at the JNA from the Old Town?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In the month of November, did you hear that Croatian forces were

18 firing on the JNA from the Old Town?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you perhaps hear the same thing in October, that Croatian

21 units were firing at the JNA from the Old Town?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. WEINER: I'd object, Your Honour. It's all outside the scope

24 of cross-examination. Move to strike.

25 JUDGE PARKER: No, I would take the opposite view, I'm afraid,

Page 7047

1 Mr. Weiner. Responsive to.

2 Carry on, Mr. Petrovic.

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 With the assistance of the usher -- just a second, Your Honour.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Will you speak into the microphone, please.


7 MR. WEINER: Excuse me, what exhibit number?

8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] D44. The same exhibit that the

9 witness has just looked at.

10 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, is that the document you've just read?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Please look at para 1 of that document. Does it say anywhere in

13 this directive, in that document, that the assignment of the units of the

14 2nd Operational Group is to capture the town of Dubrovnik? Or does it

15 speak only of a blockade?

16 A. Blockade only.

17 Q. Has the order ever been given to take hold, to capture Dubrovnik?

18 A. No. Never.

19 Q. Is anything like that stated in the document that you've already

20 had occasion to read?

21 A. No.

22 Q. At the time -- I withdraw this question.

23 Let us go back, Mr. Jovanovic, briefly, to the 6th of December.

24 You said that you were at the forward command post of the 9th Naval

25 Sector.

Page 7048

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. Were you told personally by the duty officer at the command post

3 of the 9th Naval Sector of the orders issued by the Warship Captain Zec?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did the duty officer tell you personally that the order comes from

6 the captain of the warship, Mr. Zec?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. This order from Captain Zec, did it come to the forward command

9 post in Kupari, the forward command post of the 9th Naval Sector?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you have any reason to suspect that the duty officer of the

12 9th Naval Sector was not conveying to you the orders of the chief of

13 staff?

14 MR. WEINER: I object, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

16 MR. WEINER: There was no questioning as to the validity of the

17 orders. There was no questioning as to Kupari, as to his receipt of the

18 orders. These are outside the scope of cross-examination again.

19 JUDGE PARKER: You want to take a very narrow view of the issues

20 that you raised by your cross-examination. I'm afraid I don't agree

21 again.

22 Carry on, Mr. Petrovic.

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Did you, Mr. Jovanovic, have any reason to suspect that the

25 operative officer on duty of the 9th Naval Sector was not conveying to you

Page 7049

1 the orders of the captain of the warship Zec on the 6th of December 1991?

2 A. No. I had no reason to suspect that.

3 Q. Was the situation completely normal, as usual?

4 A. Yes, it was.

5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. That is

6 all I have for this witness.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

8 Mr. Djurasic, you'll be pleased -- Jovanovic, I do beg your

9 pardon. Mr. Jovanovic, I think you'll be pleased to know that that's the

10 end of your evidence. We would like to thank you for the assistance

11 you've given, and you're free now to return to your home. Thank you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 JUDGE PARKER: Is there another witness at the moment,

15 Mr. Petrovic?

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, unfortunately we don't

17 have any more witnesses for today. We apologise to the Chamber and to our

18 learned friends for not having prepared any more witnesses. But our next

19 witness is coming tomorrow morning. I also wish to avail myself of this

20 opportunity to inform the Chamber that in view of the speed of the

21 examination of Defence witnesses, we are going to increase the planned

22 number of witnesses for next week so that we ensure expedient work until

23 the end of this month -- the month of July.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Don't forget that the plan is for four weeks of

25 evidence, not to the end of July, which would be five weeks. So keep that

Page 7050

1 in mind.

2 What concerns the Chamber, of course, Mr. Petrovic, is that there

3 are two lengthy expert witnesses who can be expected, and there's also the

4 question of whether the accused will be giving evidence. Is there any

5 decision about that at this point?

6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Your Honour.

7 [Defence counsel confer]

8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the accused shall not

9 testify in his case for reasons that are well known. The Defence is not

10 prepared to take this chance or responsibility involved in having a man

11 testify with the kind of psychological and other problems that our client

12 has because that also involves significant effort in testifying, plus

13 undergoing cross-examination.

14 JUDGE PARKER: That is the right and entitlement of the accused,

15 and that, of course, is respected. Its effect is to lessen the concern of

16 the capacity to complete the list. But it still must be expected that the

17 cross-examination of some of these witnesses will be of some length. So

18 we will need to be conscious that we don't lose time in future weeks.

19 This being the first week, clearly it's very difficult at the beginning to

20 judge just how slowly or quickly the proceedings may go. So we will treat

21 this week as a learning experience.

22 Very well. Now, the one witness available for tomorrow, you

23 anticipated for your examination some one and a half hours. Is that still

24 the position?

25 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I shall lead the

Page 7051

1 examination-in-chief of tomorrow's witness. Our estimate was an hour and

2 a half. However, this witness arrived in The Hague late. He did not come

3 with that first group. And he also brought some documents that might make

4 his examination longer in view of the scope of facts he will be speaking

5 to so that at this point we believe we could complete the

6 examination-in-chief sometime during the second session of tomorrow's

7 hearing.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

9 Ms. Somers.

10 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE PARKER: You have a capacity to anticipate my every thought.

12 MS. SOMERS: I am flattered.

13 Your Honour, the Defence did raise the matter of new documents

14 that are not on the exhibit list, and I don't know that they will be

15 sought to be exhibited. However, we have not yet received them, nor have

16 we been given any lead information about which documents from the existing

17 exhibit list may be sought to be introduced. So it would be helpful, I

18 think, certainly for us to get that as soon as possible, and then

19 obviously we will do everything we can to try to jump in quickly and have

20 a crisp, expeditious cross. But we are very much in the dark right now.

21 JUDGE PARKER: The pace that you have been setting with the past

22 few witnesses has been excellent, and we encourage it.

23 My first concern is whether we will need the full period tomorrow,

24 or whether it would be more practical to have a slightly late start and

25 yet be sure of finishing the witness tomorrow.

Page 7052

1 I'm at the moment not entirely clear. Mr. Rodic, it would

2 probably help you most if we had a slightly later start. Can we be

3 confident of finishing the witness, do you think?

4 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, in view of the

5 tempo of the cross-examination demonstrated by our learned friends of the

6 Prosecution during this week, I feel confident that it would be realistic

7 to expect that the testimony of that witness, too, would be finished

8 during the course of the day tomorrow because we don't have a witness for

9 Friday. This is the fifth witness planned for this first week of trial.

10 So we thought that along with the opening statements, we would have one

11 witness per day, so that will, in fact, be the last witness we're going to

12 call this week.

13 And as for the next group of witnesses, they are arriving on

14 Saturday for the following week, and there will be more witnesses there,

15 not to waste any of our valuable time.

16 JUDGE PARKER: My immediate concern, Mr. Rodic, is whether the

17 full day will be needed tomorrow, the full ordinary sitting day, or

18 whether we could have a slightly later start.

19 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know how much

20 later. Can you give me an assessment.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Half an hour or an hour.

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Half an hour, if we start half an hour

23 later, then I think, yes, we'll be realistically able to get through the

24 witness tomorrow.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will then commence at 9.30 tomorrow.

Page 7053

1 You have heard, Mr. Rodic, the plea of Ms. Somers to learn about the

2 documentary exhibits for tomorrow. You understand that that will

3 facilitate preparation and the speed of tomorrow.

4 Can we broaden that inquiry. The witness summaries and so on, are

5 they to become available for the future witnesses?

6 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as for your first

7 question with respect to documents, it is true that the Prosecution has

8 not been supplied with the new documents that we have. They won't be

9 tendered, all of them. And we already discussed this with the

10 Prosecution, and we did promise that during the afternoon we would provide

11 them with those documents to give them sufficient time to prepare for

12 tomorrow's proceedings.

13 As for the summaries, witness statements and summaries of those

14 for next week, next week's group of witnesses, as I have already said,

15 arrive on Saturday, and we'll do our best over the weekend to write up

16 those summaries on the contents of their testimony to inform our

17 colleagues of the Prosecution thereof.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

19 Is there any other matter that either counsel needs to raise?

20 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, I do wish to inquire, if, for whatever

21 reason, perhaps because of surprise, for example, we need to carry on for

22 a bit on Friday, albeit not a new witness, was the Chamber anticipating

23 simply finishing the witness direct and cross and redirect tomorrow, or is

24 Friday still a calendared day in the event we need to have --

25 JUDGE PARKER: Friday will remain a day for sitting until it's

Page 7054

1 clear that we don't need it. Whatever else happens, we must finish the

2 witness that remains that is available to ensure, then, that we can make a

3 prompt start with the further witnesses on Monday. But the indications

4 are we should finish the evidence of this fifth witness in the course of

5 tomorrow, even though we start at 9.30.

6 Very well. We will adjourn now and commence again at 9.30 in the

7 morning.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.32 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 1st day of July,

10 2004, at 9.30 a.m.