Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 836




4 Monday, 20th May 1996

5 (10.00 a.m.)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Good morning. Mr. Niemann, I understand that you

7 wish to meet in camera this afternoon?

8 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honours. It may be that it would facilitate a

9 more free flowing discussion if we could meet in camera and discuss

10 the question of the length of trial and so forth and what measures we

11 have in mind. So, it is just a recommendation from us, if it is

12 acceptable to the court.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff is not here. I understand he will

14 be here this afternoon, Mr. Orie; is that correct?

15 MR. ORIE: That is correct, your Honour.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Can we meet at 2.30 then before we meet this

17 afternoon session, could we meet in camera?

18 MR. ORIE: I think there will be no problem because he is supposed to be

19 here at 2.30.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Then we will meet in camera before we begin

21 this

22 afternoon's session. Mr. Niemann, would you call your next

23 witness -- Miss Hollis?

24 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, we would call Mr. Pasic. Your Honour, if the

25 Prosecution could have Prosecution Exhibit 73?

Page 837

1 MR. EVIR PASIC, called.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Pasic, can you hear me? Would you take the

3 oath, please, sir? Can you hear me?

4 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can.


6 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour, it is Pasic, P-A-S-I-C.

7 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

8 truth, the

9 whole truth and nothing but the truth.

10 (The witness was sworn)

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may be seated, sir. Thank you.

12 Examined by MISS HOLLIS

13 Q. Would you please state your name?

14 A. My name is Elvir Pasic.

15 Q. What is your date of birth?

16 A. I was born on 7th October 1967.

17 Q. What is your ethnic group?

18 A. Bosnian Muslim.

19 Q. Could you please tell us your place of birth?

20 A. I was born at Rogitica.

21 Q. Is that located in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

22 A. Yes, that is it is in the eastern part of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

23 Q. Your Honour, perhaps with the assistance of Miss Sutherland we could

24 show Prosecution Exhibit 73? Could you please point to Rogitica?

25 A. This one.

Page 838

1 Q. Perhaps we could zoom in on that for the court. Mr. Pasic, were you

2 born in the town of Rogitica or in a village in the opstina of

3 Rogitica?

4 A. I was born in the town of Rogitica.

5 Q. How far is Rogitica from Sarajevo?

6 A. Rogitica is some 66 kilometres away from Sarajevo.

7 Q. How long did you live in Rogitica?

8 A. For a long time, 25 years.

9 Q. Until what year?

10 A. Until mid 1992 when I left.

11 Q. If you know, could you tell us the ethnic composition of the area?

12 A. In the opstina of Rogitica, there was 66 per cent Muslim and 33 per

13 cent Serbian population there.

14 Q. In the town itself what was the ethnic composition?

15 A. In the town of Rogitica there were 63 per cent Muslims and 35 per

16 cent Serbs.

17 Q. To your knowledge, what was the JNA installation that was closest to

18 Rogitica?

19 A. The closest garrison of the JNA was at Han Pijesak.

20 Q. Could you point to that on the map, please?

21 A. (Witness indicates).

22 Q. Thank you.

23 JUDGE VOHRAH: Before you proceed, what is Zepa? Zepa represents the

24 whole area there? You speak of the opstina of Rogitica ---

25 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.

Page 839

1 JUDGE VOHRAH: -- and that is where?

2 MISS HOLLIS: It is the entire opstina within which you see the name

3 "Rogitica".


5 MISS HOLLIS: Zepa is located within that opstina.

6 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.

7 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. (To the witness): Mr. Pasic, did you

8 perform military service with the JNA?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. When was that?

11 A. That was in 1986 and in 1987.

12 Q. Where did you perform that service?

13 A. I was at Kraljevo in Serbia.

14 Q. What were your duties in the JNA?

15 A. I was in the military traffic police.

16 Q. During your service with the JNA, did you become familiar with JNA

17 uniforms, ranks, weapons, equipment and markings?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you tell us, in the military police are there any different

20 uniform items or insignia worn by JNA military policemen?

21 A. The military police had belts of white colour, and it had -- it wore

22 on their sleeves white, other white covering on the sleeves and it

23 had batons necessary for the performance of its duties.

24 Q. This was in the performance of its traffic duties, the baton?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

Page 840

1 Q. Did the military police wear any type of badge or insignia on their

2 uniform?

3 A. We wore the emblem of the military traffic police, and of the

4 barracks where we were located.

5 Q. This white material on the sleeve, was this some type of cloth that

6 you pulled over your uniform shirt sleeve?

7 A. Yes, we would mostly put it on our sleeves of the uniform when we

8 were patrolling or when we were escorting military convoys.

9 Q. What was the JNA uniform that you wore, what colour was that?

10 A. It was grey, olive green uniform.

11 Q. Is that the type of uniform that is sometimes referred to as the SMB

12 uniform?

13 A. Yes, that is it.

14 Q. Mr. Pasic, after your active duty tour, did you return to Rogitica?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Did you perform Reserve duty after completing your active duty JNA

17 tour?

18 A. Yes, in Reserve police.

19 Q. What were your duties in the Reserve police?

20 A. I was a Reserve policeman in the Reserve military police, and I was a

21 private in the patrol.

22 Q. How much time did you spend each year performing these Reserve

23 duties?

24 A. I spent, roughly speaking, once or twice a year, one or two days.

25 Q. Where did you perform these Reserve police duties?

Page 841

1 A. At the town of Rogitica.

2 Q. While you performed these duties, what type of uniform did you wear?

3 A. I wore a uniform of a grey colour, the same as in a military uniform

4 but it was in grey colour. It was very similar to the regular

5 uniform of the regular policemen.

6 Q. What was the colour of the regular police uniform?

7 A. It was of a light blue or a grey colour.

8 Q. When you performed this Reserve duty, were you armed?

9 A. At first I was not armed.

10 Q. The regular police, were they armed?

11 A. Yes, they were.

12 Q. What type of weapons were they armed with?

13 A. They had guns.

14 Q. Did they have any type of automatic weapons?

15 A. Not at first.

16 JUDGE STEPHEN: Can I ask a question? Does your evidence mean that the

17 Reserve military police wore a different uniform from the regular

18 military police? You have told us what the uniform of the regular

19 military police was, I think.

20 THE WITNESS: The difference was because the uniform was of a different

21 colour.

22 JUDGE STEPHEN: Yes, thank you.

23 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, if I may follow up on that? (To the witness):

24 Mr. Pasic, you were in the active duty JNA as a military policeman

25 and then you performed Reserve duties as Reserve policeman. As a

Page 842

1 Reserve policeman, were you attached to the JNA or to the police

2 department?

3 A. I was attached to the police force.

4 Q. To your knowledge, soldiers who performed other functions such as

5 artillery or infantry in the JNA, would they perform their Reserve

6 duties perhaps with the JNA?

7 A. Yes, they would.

8 Q. At the time that you performed these Reserve duties, were you ever

9 trained, did you receive any type of training, in addition to the

10 patrol duties?

11 A. We had additional training that was usually just theoretical

12 lectures, and then the next day there would be some practical

13 exercises.

14 Q. Did you ever perform this training at Han Pijesak?

15 A. No, never.

16 Q. Did any of your friends perform training of any kind at Han Pijesak?

17 A. Yes, most of them.

18 Q. These were JNA Reserve members?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What types of military duties or areas of specialisation did they

21 have?

22 A. They performed military duties, specialised in artillery, signalling,

23 drivers of motorized vehicles or infantry duties.

24 Q. In September 1991, were you called up for continuous Reserve duty as

25 a policeman in Rogitica?

Page 843

1 A. Yes, I was. I was called up for that.

2 Q. After you were called up for this continuous police duty, how long

3 did you perform this continuous duty?

4 A. I stayed there from September 1991 up until the end of March 1992.

5 Q. Once you began your duties as a full-time policeman, were you at that

6 time issued a weapon?

7 A. Yes, yes, I received a weapon.

8 Q. What type of weapon did you receive?

9 A. An automatic rifle and 150 bullets for that particular weapon.

10 Q. So in September '91, the police now had automatic weapons?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where did you perform these full-time duties?

13 A. Mostly in the town of Rogatica.

14 Q. After you became a full-time police officer, what uniform did you

15 wear?

16 A. I wore the same uniform as I wore when I was a Reserve policeman.

17 Q. What were your duties after this full-time call up?

18 A. My duties were exactly the same as that of a regular policeman,

19 which meant patrolling the town, controlling the traffic, in case

20 there were criminals, to take them to the police station and so on.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me, Miss Hollis. As I understand the

22 testimony, Mr. Pasic has testified that he wore a grey uniform.


24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Pasic, did you wear a grey uniform when you were

25 in the Reserve military police?

Page 844

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Then when you were called up to be a regular policeman, in September

3 '91, you continued then to wear that grey uniform; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 MISS HOLLIS: Mr. Pasic, I believe you indicated that the regular police

6 wore a blue uniform; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. Were there any other differences between the uniforms other than the

9 colour?

10 A. Regular police wore caps on their heads and the Reserve police wore

11 military caps, and the regular police had insignia marking their

12 rank; whereas the Reserve police did not wear any kind of ranks,

13 insignia.

14 Q. Drawing your attention to the end of 1991 or the beginning of 1992,

15 during that time period, did you see any increase in JNA troops that

16 were moving into the Rogatica area?

17 A. Yes, I saw that.

18 Q. Where would you see these troops?

19 A. Those troops were mostly located and were going towards the exit of

20 the Rogatica town.

21 Q. What types of uniforms did they wear?

22 A. The military grey, olive green uniform.

23 Q. That is the regular JNA uniform when you were in the JNA?

24 A. Yes. JNA uniform.

25 Q. In the spring of 1992, did you notice any increase in JNA equipment

Page 845

1 or weapons moving into your area?

2 A. Yes, in the spring of 1992, more and more often one could notice

3 columns of JNA military that were going through the town and

4 concentrate either in our opstina or the opstinas of Visegrad or

5 Pale.

6 Q. Could you use the map again, please, and point out to the court the

7 direction of Visegrad and Pale?

8 A. This is the Visegrad opstina.

9 Q. The direction of Pale was -- in that area?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you very much. You indicated that you saw an increase in this

12 equipment. What type of equipment did you see moving into and

13 through your area?

14 A. I could see artillery equipment, that is, canons and tanks, armed

15 vehicles, and all the soldiers had infantry weapons.

16 Q. These vehicles and equipment and weapons, did you recognise them as

17 JNA?

18 A. I did.

19 Q. Also directing your attention to the spring of 1992, did you become

20 aware of the creation of any new Serb autonomous region near the

21 Rogatica area?

22 A. In the spring of 1992 was founded the Serb autonomous region of

23 Romanija which was located in the area of Pale, Sokolac and Han

24 Pijesak; it also included the area of Rogatica in it.

25 Q. Did you ever hear any sort of public pronouncements as to why this

Page 846

1 Serb autonomous region was necessary?

2 A. Public explanation was that the Serb population in that area felt in

3 danger, and that is why they had to organise an autonomous region for

4 its protection.

5 Q. Do you know who was making these statements that the Serbs felt

6 threatened and in need of protection?

7 A. The town of Rogatica, such declarations were given by Rajko Kusic.

8 Q. Who is he?

9 A. He was the Commander of the Serb unit that had been formed in the

10 area of our opstina.

11 Q. To your knowledge, at this time were there any groups in Rogatica

12 that were threatening the Serbs in the area?

13 A. I was not aware that there had been any groups that were threatening

14 or putting the Serbs in danger.

15 Q. You mentioned -----

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me, Miss Hollis, may I ask one question? Mr.

17 Pasic, you indicated that Mr., I do not know how to pronounce his

18 name, was in charge of the Serb unit; what was the Serb unit, the

19 Serb unit of what?

20 MISS HOLLIS: I was about to get into that.


22 MISS HOLLIS (To the witness): Mr. Pasic, you mentioned this Serb unit in

23 the area that Mr. Kusic was the head of, where was this Serb unit

24 located?

25 A. That Serb unit could organise at the village of Gucevo 10 kilometres

Page 847

1 from Rogatica, and the headquarters of that Serb unit was in the

2 village of Borika which is 18 kilometres away from the town of

3 Rogatica.

4 Q. What type of unit was this?

5 A. It was an infantry unit that had about 500 people in it, trained for

6 combat.

7 Q. How did you learn about this infantry unit?

8 A. At that time, apart from working as a Reserve policeman, I also

9 worked at a local restaurant where local population used to go, and

10 most of the people who used to go there were Serbs, and they would

11 tell me about how they organised that unit and how they were members

12 of that unit.

13 Q. The two towns that you mentioned, Gucevo and Borika, what ethnic

14 group or groups lived in those two villages?

15 A. The ethnic group of those villages was mostly Serb.

16 Q. Did this infantry unit have weapons?

17 A. Yes, they had weapons.

18 Q. What type of weapons?

19 A. They had infantry automatic weapons.

20 Q. Did you ever see these weapons?

21 A. Yes, I did. I saw some individuals wearing uniforms and carrying

22 weapons and going through town.

23 Q. Did you recognise those as JNA type weapons?

24 A. The same type of weapons we used at the JNA.

25 Q. To your knowledge, when was this military unit created?

Page 848

1 A. That military unit was created in the summer of, sorry, spring 1992.

2 Q. You indicated that this Serb unit was located in Gucevo and had its

3 headquarters in Borika; were there any check points along the roads

4 to either Gucevo or Borika?

5 A. At first, there was a checkpoint in the village of Borika, at the

6 entrance of the village of Borika.

7 Q. Were there any checkpoints leading to Gucevo?

8 A. In March 1992, checkpoints were formed at the entrance of most Serb

9 villages in the opstina of Rogatica and as well one going towards the

10 village of Gucevo.

11 Q. Who manned these checkpoints?

12 A. Checkpoints were manned by the members of the Serb unit organised at

13 Gucevo.

14 Q. To your knowledge, did any one group have difficulty in going

15 through these checkpoints?

16 A. Such checkpoints, the Muslim population was checked then. They mostly

17 had problems going through those checkpoints.

18 Q. To your knowledge, did the Serbs have similar difficulties going

19 through these checkpoints?

20 A. No, they had no difficulties whatsoever.

21 Q. Again talking about the spring of 1992, did you become aware of any

22 distribution of weapons to inhabitants of your area?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What did you become aware of?

25 A. I noticed JNA vehicles going to the area, that is, villages with Serb

Page 849

1 population, staying there for a while, two or three hours, and then

2 leaving those villages.

3 Q. Were there any incidents in those villages after the JNA left?

4 A. When JNA left, one can hear shots from automatic weapons and from

5 automatic pistols after the JNA left those villages; it was usually

6 at night time.

7 Q. Were there any other incidents that you were aware of?

8 A. Yes, as I was on the Reserve police in Rogatica, among other things,

9 I used to sentry at checkpoints at the exit from the town to control

10 the licences, documents and vehicles. On one occasion, I stopped a

11 vehicle with Kumanovo plates. There were five persons in it; four of

12 them were uniformed and armed, and the driver was in civilian

13 clothes. I knew all five of them in person.

14 I asked the driver to give me the documents, vehicles documents.

15 He did not have them, and I thus wanted to search the vehicle. When

16 the driver opened, I could see some 50 machine guns, some hand

17 grenades and quite a lot of ammunition for these weapons. I asked

18 him where he was taking those and he was saying that he was taking it

19 to the village of Borika to distribute them among the villagers. At

20 that moment I decided that the best solution was not to cause any

21 trouble but to let them through.

22 Q. You indicated that you saw automatic weapons and hand grenades; in

23 what part of the vehicle were these automatic weapons and hand

24 grenades?

25 A. In the luggage compartment at the back of the car.

Page 850

1 Q. You indicated that the licence plates on the car were from where?

2 A. The licence plates were from Kumanovo which is in the Republic of

3 Macedonia.

4 Q. You also indicated that you knew all five of these men in the

5 vehicle. Who were these men?

6 A. One of them was Rajko Kusic. I know the nickname of others; one was

7 Slavisa, another one Lube, another one was Trisa and one was Miki.

8 Q. How did you know these men?

9 A. They all lived and worked in Rogatica and we often saw each other in

10 the town. They used to come to the restaurant where I worked.

11 Q. What were these men wearing when they were in the vehicle at the

12 checkpoint?

13 A. The uniformed individuals had camouflage uniforms in grey, olive

14 green and they had automatic weapons with them.

15 Q. Were there any types of insignia or patches or badges on their

16 uniforms?

17 A. They had emblems of the Republika Srpska or Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 Q. What was that emblem of the Republic of Srpska?

19 A. This emblem looked like a circle with the Serb three coloured flag in

20 the centre, and along the circumference it said the Army of the Serb

21 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22 Q. This three coloured flag, do you remember the colours in the flag?

23 A. Blue, white and red.

24 Q. You indicated you let them go because you decided that, perhaps, that

25 was wisest course of action. Why did you make that decision? What

Page 851

1 were you concerned about?

2 A. At that moment I felt that my life might be in danger and I could not

3 defend myself against possible danger. That is why I decided to let

4 them through.

5 Q. Did you ever see any similar type of deliveries to Muslim areas of

6 the opstina of Rogatica?

7 A. No, I did not see any such distribution.

8 Q. In September 1991, when you were called to full-time duty as a

9 policeman, how was the police department in Rogatica organised? How

10 many divisions did it have?

11 A. The Police Force in Rogatica was made of regular policemen, criminal

12 investigation police, inspectors, police and Reserve police called up

13 at the time.

14 Q. The head of the police department in Rogatica, what was his ethnic

15 group?

16 A. He was a Muslim.

17 Q. Who was next in line below him in the chain of command?

18 A. Mladen Vasiljevic, Serb by ethnic origin.

19 Q. What has his position?

20 A. He was a Commander of militia. He appointed people to various

21 duties, sometimes went on duty with them.

22 Q. Did he have a deputy?

23 A. Yes, he had a deputy.

24 Q. What was the ethnic group of the Deputy Commander?

25 A. Muslim.

Page 852

1 Q. The inspectors, what were there their ethnic group or groups?

2 A. At the time there were three inspectors in the police station; two of

3 them were Serbs and one was a Muslim.

4 Q. Then for the lower ranking police who performed the day-to-day

5 duties, what was the ethnic composition of that group?

6 A. The ethnic composition of the force was roughly 60 per cent of

7 Muslims and 40 per cent Serb.

8 Q. In the spring of 1992 what changes, if any, occurred to the structure

9 of the police department in Rogatica?

10 A. Yes, in the spring of 1992 the police station in Rogatica was

11 divided.

12 Q. How was it divided?

13 A. It was divided, that is, the regular police station in Rogatica was

14 headed by all of the Serb police who worked at that station in order

15 to organise the police station or the militia station of the Serb

16 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 Q. Where were they housed?

18 A. They were housed in the same building as the regular police of the

19 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

20 Q. Then how was this division made?

21 A. The division was made by literally partitioning the police building

22 in Rogatica in two parts.

23 Q. By how, by putting up some kind of wall?

24 A. Yes, a wall was erected through the middle, across the corridor of

25 the building, dividing the building into two parts so that it was

Page 853

1 partitioned.

2 Q. After this split, did any Serbs remain in the regular police unit of

3 Rogatica?

4 A. No.

5 Q. I believe you have already indicated, but could you tell us again the

6 name by which the Serb Police Force now referred to itself?

7 A. The Serb police of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

8 Q. How did they acquire the weapons that they used?

9 A. They appropriated the weapons they received as regular policemen.

10 Q. Did they have any type of vehicles that they used?

11 A. They appropriated two-thirds of the vehicles owned by the regular

12 Police Force in Rogatica and used those vehicles.

13 Q. To your knowledge, who authorised this split?

14 A. As far as I know, the orders came from the so-called Serb autonomous

15 province of Romanija and the division was specifically put through by

16 Mladen Vasiljevic, the Commander of the police in Rogatica.

17 Q. Did any of the Serb policemen tell you why this had been done?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What did they say?

20 A. They told me that they had divided because they thought that the Serb

21 population, the town of Rogatica, was in jeopardy and they needed a

22 unit such as Serb police in order to defend their people.

23 Q. To your knowledge, prior to the split, had there been any armed

24 clashes between Serbs and Muslims in the Rogatica area?

25 A. No.

Page 854

1 Q. To your knowledge, prior to the split had there been any attacks by

2 non-Serbs on Serbs?

3 A. No.

4 Q. What did this new Serb Police Force mean in terms of where the police

5 units worked and patrolled?

6 A. That new Serb Police Force patrolled around parts of the opstina and

7 the town where the Serb population lived mostly.

8 Q. The regular police unit then patrolled what areas?

9 A. The regular units patrolled largely the town of Rogatica.

10 Q. After this split occurred in the police department, what changes, if

11 any, did you notice in the uniforms that the Serb police wore?

12 A. The Serb police uniform was not uniform, that is, some of them wore

13 camouflage uniforms of grey, olive green; some did not wear

14 camouflage uniforms, but in light blue and grey colours; some of them

15 had SMB military uniforms. The majority of them had black or dark

16 blue berets. Those berets bore the emblems of the Serb Republic.

17 Q. Did any of them continue to wear the regular blue police uniform?

18 A. No, none of them.

19 Q. After this split occurred, how long did you continue to work as a

20 policeman?

21 A. On that same day when the police was divided, I left the duty, the

22 post.

23 Q. Why did you leave the police department on that day?

24 A. I left the Police Force because I felt I was in danger because, to be

25 a member of the regular Police Force as a Muslim in a town where

Page 855

1 there were a number of armed Serbs, I thought was dangerous.

2 Q. You say that there were a number of armed Serbs. When did you begin

3 to notice a number of armed persons in the Rogatica area?

4 A. In the spring of 1992.

5 Q. The Serbs that were armed, were they in military uniforms, were they

6 in civilian clothing or both?

7 A. Both.

8 Q. What types of weapons did they have?

9 A. They mostly had automatic rifles with ammunition to go with them.

10 Q. Either before or after this split in the police department, did you

11 also see Muslims carrying weapons?

12 A. No.

13 Q. In addition to the split in the police department, at the same time

14 did you notice any other changes in the political structure of

15 Rogatica, the creation of any other new departments?

16 A. Yes, in the spring of 1992 the opstina of Rogatica was divided, that

17 is, Serb members from the municipality organised the Serb opstina of

18 Rogatica and, in the wake of this, the Crisis Headquarters of the

19 Serb opstina of Rogatica was established.

20 Q. If you know, who was in charge of this Crisis Committee, Crisis

21 Headquarters?

22 A. The Crisis Committee, Crisis Headquarters, there was Rajko Kusic and

23 Tomo Veselinovic.

24 Q. Who was Tomo Veselinovic?

25 A. He was the President of the Serb Democratic Party in Rogatica.

Page 856

1 Q. I would like to draw your attention to May of 1992. At that time

2 what changes, if any, did you notice in your ability to get access to

3 different radio and television channels and stations?

4 A. Yes, in the latter half of May 1992 we could not receive television

5 Sarajevo, the television of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and at that time we

6 could receive only the television Belgrade, television Novi Sad, they

7 are in Serbia, and television called SRNA with the seat with a centre

8 in Pale.

9 Q. Did you notice any changes in the radio reception?

10 A. Yes, the radio programmes we could receive mostly came from radio

11 station Sokolac which was a Serb station, by and large.

12 Q. At the same time did you notice any changes in the type of

13 programming that you received?

14 A. Yes, the programme we received mostly Serb, that is, Serbs who were

15 threatened in Bosnia and Herzegovina, that they had to get together

16 and mobilize and all those feared for the army service should join

17 the Army of the Serb Republic.

18 Q. Did the programmes indicate on whose behalf this call for the Serbs

19 to mobilize was being made?

20 A. Yes, those calls were broadcast on behalf, in the name of the Serb

21 Republic and the presidency and the President himself.

22 Q. That was who?

23 A. Radovan Karadzic.

24 Q. During this time that you were hearing these broadcasts, to your

25 knowledge, had there been any attacks on Serbs in the Rogatica area?

Page 857

1 A. No.

2 Q. I would like to draw your attention to 22nd May 1992; was that the

3 date that Rogatica was attacked?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What type of attack was it? What type of weapons were used?

6 A. Artillery, mostly anti-aircraft weaponry and infantry weapons.

7 Q. What parts of the town were hit with artillery?

8 A. Mostly the central part of the town and those areas of the town

9 inhabited by the Muslim population.

10 Q. How long did this shelling of the town last?

11 A. The shelling lasted for seven days with very brief intermissions.

12 Q. During these seven days did you ever hear the sounds of aircraft in

13 the area?

14 A. Yes, I could hear the sounds of the aircraft.

15 Q. Could you actually see the aircraft?

16 A. No, I could not see them because I was in the cellar of the building

17 where I was staying for my personal security.

18 Q. When you would hear these sounds of aircraft, shortly after these

19 sounds would you hear any other sounds?

20 A. Yes, I heard detonations. I do not think they were far from the

21 centre of the town.

22 Q. You indicated that during this time period you were staying in a

23 cellar of a building; what building was this?

24 A. That was the building where I lived, where I had my apartment.

25 Q. Who was there with you in the cellar?

Page 858

1 A. There were members of my family, and approximately about 40 persons.

2 Q. During this seven days that you were in this cellar, did you have

3 any occasion at all to come up from the cellar and see what was

4 happening in the town?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. During this time, did you see any military weapons or vehicles

7 entering into the town?

8 A. Every day during the brief intermissions, tanks and APCs went through

9 the town and they fired at buildings in the town.

10 Q. Did you recognise these tanks and APCs as JNA type weapons and

11 vehicles?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. After this seven-day period, were there any orders or ultimatums

14 given to the population?

15 A. Yes, there were orders.

16 Q. How were these orders given?

17 A. Those orders were given over loud speakers in the Serb part of the

18 town.

19 Q. What orders were you given?

20 A. The order was that the entire Muslim population in the town was to

21 come out to the central square in the town to be notified, to be

22 advised, about their further behaviour.

23 Q. Did the people come out to the square?

24 A. Most of them did come out to the square.

25 Q. What happened after you gathered there?

Page 859

1 A. Military, an APC came to the same square. It carried seven to eight

2 armoured, uniformed individuals, two in civilian clothes and one of

3 those armoured and uniformed individuals was a captain.

4 Q. Did you know this person?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. He was a captain in what, the active duty JNA or the Reserve JNA?

7 A. He was a Reserve JNA captain.

8 Q. What type of uniforms were he and the others wearing?

9 A. He was wearing the conventional JNA uniform and other uniformed

10 persons were wearing camouflage uniforms.

11 Q. You said that there were seven or eight uniformed persons; were there

12 any others with them?

13 A. There were two persons in civilian clothes.

14 Q. Did you know the two civilians as well?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. If you know, what was the ethnic group of these uniformed persons and

17 the two civilians?

18 A. They were all Serbs.

19 Q. At that time were you given any demands or orders?

20 A. The Muslim population was demanded to sign loyalty to surrender, to

21 move to the secondary school building so as to ensure their personal

22 security until the town was cleansed of Muslim fundamentalists,

23 extremists and green berets.

24 Q. At this time, to your knowledge, were there any green berets or

25 extremists in the town of Rogatica?

Page 860

1 A. No.

2 Q. On this occasion did you go to the school?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Where did you go?

5 A. I returned to my apartment.

6 Q. Two or three days later, do you recall any further broadcast?

7 A. During the next two or three days, the same appeals were repeated

8 over the loud speakers in the Serb part of the town.

9 Q. During this time period were you aware of any armed resistance in

10 the Rogatica area?

11 A. As far as I know, in the town of Rogatica itself there were about 50

12 persons with personal weapons who offered resistance.

13 Q. Were these people Muslims?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What type of weapons did they have?

16 A. Their weapons were mostly personal weapons. They were pistols or

17 hunting rifles.

18 Q. I would like to direct your attention to 7th June 1992; on that date

19 were you arrested?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How did that happen?

22 A. That day the shelling of the town was very intensive, so that most of

23 inhabitants, most of the dwellers, in my building had to go down to

24 the cellar; I was one of them. Around 7 o'clock in the evening,

25 soldiers, Serb soldiers, broke into that building, into the cellar,

Page 861

1 and ordered us all out. Then they separated men from women. Men had

2 to lie down on the ground facing the ground, and women stood some

3 five or six metres away from them.

4 Q. When they ordered you out, did everyone come out of the basement

5 shelter?

6 A. Well, there was one lad who did not leave the cellar.

7 Q. What happened after all you came out and the one young man stayed

8 behind?

9 A. Well, one of the Serb soldiers threw a hand grenade into the part of

10 the cellar where that lad was and when he screamed, that young man

11 came out, he was covered in blood and injured.

12 Q. You indicated that when you came out you were separated, women going

13 to one side, men to the other. When you came out, did you see any

14 other people who had also been gathered?

15 A. Yes, in that same place there were about 10 of men and as many women

16 and children brought out from another part of the building, that is,

17 another entrance into my building.

18 Q. Of the people that were with you in the shelter and these other

19 people you saw gathered outside, do you know what their ethnic groups

20 were?

21 A. They were all Muslims.

22 Q. You indicated that the men were forced to lie down. What happened

23 then after the men were lying down?

24 A. While we were lying down, most of the soldiers who had captured us

25 began to beat us, kick us with their feet, with their rifles and

Page 862

1 demanding that we surrender our weapons.

2 Q. Did you have any weapons in your possession as you were lying there?

3 A. Well, I was lying on the ground. I did not have any weapons on me

4 but in my flat was my personal pistol.

5 Q. Did any of the other men lying on the ground surrender weapons as

6 they were being kicked or beaten?

7 A. None of the other men had arms so they could not surrender.

8 Q. These men who brought you out of the basement and then the men who

9 were involved in kicking and beating the men lying on the ground, did

10 you know any of these people?

11 A. Yes, I knew most of them.

12 Q. How did you recognise them?

13 A. Most of them wore masks on their face, but I recognised them because

14 of their voices and the names they called each other, and some of

15 them did not even wear masks on their faces.

16 Q. What types of clothing were these men wearing?

17 A. Some of them wore a multi-coloured patched camouflage uniform.

18 Q. What colours in this camouflage uniform?

19 A. Some of them wore grey, olive green camouflage uniform and some of

20 them wore a blue camouflage uniform, light and dark blue in colour.

21 Q. Prior to this date, had you seen these light and dark blue camouflage

22 uniforms?

23 A. Such uniforms were worn by some of the policemen of the Serb police

24 in the town.

25 Q. You indicated that either by their voices or by actually seeing their

Page 863

1 face you knew most of these men. The ones that you knew, what was

2 their ethnic group?

3 A. Serbs.

4 Q. Once they brought you out, did they make any demands of you, of you

5 personally?

6 A. Me personally, they asked weapons which I had while I was a police

7 officer at Rogatica. I did not have such weapons, but I admitted I

8 had a personal weapon. That was a pistol that was in my flat.

9 Q. Did they make any type of threats to you at this time?

10 A. One of them wanted to kill me. He wanted to cut my throat.

11 Q. Did he actually have a knife?

12 A. Yes, he did.

13 Q. Where was the knife when he was making this threat?

14 A. Threatening me, the knife was in his hand under my neck.

15 Q. Did you go to retrieve your pistol?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who accompanied you to do this?

18 A. With me went one of the soldiers who was masked, wearing a mask, and

19 I recognised him so that I asked a cigarette off him while we were

20 going towards my flat because I was convinced that once I will give

21 them the weapon, they would kill me. When I asked for the cigarette,

22 he said I have no reason to worry because he knew me. I recognised

23 his voice. He was Vlado Markovic who used to work as an active duty

24 policeman at the police station at Rogatica.

25 Q. Did he confirm that he was Vlado Markovic?

Page 864

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. The group of you who had been brought from the basement and this

3 other group of people who were already outside the apartment

4 building, where were you taken from the apartment building area?

5 A. After I surrendered my weapon, with my mother, my grandmother and my

6 aunt, I was taken to the secondary school, the secondary school

7 building.

8 Q. Were these other persons from the apartment building taken there as

9 well?

10 A. 10 minutes before I was taken there, women and children were taken

11 from in front of the building, and all the men continued to lie down

12 on the ground and their arms were tied with wire.

13 Q. When you were taken to the school, how were you taken there?

14 A. Escorted by two Serb soldiers.

15 Q. When you arrived at the school, were there other people there who

16 were being detained?

17 A. Apart from the women and children that had been captured in my

18 apartment building, there were some other families there.

19 Q. Did you know any of these people?

20 A. Yes, I knew them.

21 Q. What was their ethnic group or groups?

22 A. Two Muslim families there; a Serb family; one from a mixed marriage

23 and one that I could not tell whether they were Muslims or Serbs.

24 Q. How long were you held at the school?

25 A. A couple of days.

Page 865

1 Q. During the time you were held at the school, did you see any persons

2 taken out for interrogation?

3 A. Yes. People were taken out for interrogation on several occasions.

4 Q. Did you know any of these people?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What were their positions in the community?

7 A. Several of them were engineers, they worked as engineers; two of them

8 were doctors; some were workers.

9 Q. What was their ethnic group?

10 A. (Answer not audibly translated).

11 Q. Without mentioning any name or names, while you were at the school,

12 did you see any woman or women taken from your room?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How often did this happen?

15 A. It happened every night.

16 Q. By whom was the person or persons taken?

17 A. They were taken by Serb soldiers that were mostly in charge for --

18 there for our protection in the secondary school.

19 Q. When the woman or women were brought back, what did you observe about

20 their demeanour or behaviour?

21 A. They would not want to talk to anybody. They were concerned.

22 Q. These soldiers that would take them out at night, what types of

23 uniforms did they wear?

24 A. They were olive green in colour and the uniforms worn by the Serb

25 police.

Page 866

1 Q. Did you know any of these people, any of these men, who took the

2 woman or women out?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What was their ethnic group?

5 A. Serbs.

6 Q. While you were at the school, did you see anyone other than the

7 regular guards enter the school?

8 A. Yes, one day I noticed three young men enter the school.

9 Q. What were they wearing?

10 A. Trousers, grey, olive green; they wore t-shirts, black t-shirts, and

11 red berets.

12 Q. Were they carrying any kind of weapons?

13 A. Sniper rifle.

14 Q. When you say a "sniper rifle", what do you mean?

15 A. ... sight so that you can see the target and that is easy to hit

16 them.

17 Q. When they came in did you see where they went?

18 A. They went to the third floor in the physics classroom.

19 Q. After they went into the classroom did you hear anything?

20 A. Yes, I heard shots.

21 Q. Then after that, did you see the three men again?

22 A. Yes, they left the school building.

23 Q. On this day that these three young men came to the school building,

24 did anything else occur in the city that you were aware of?

25 A. Yes, on that same day one-third of the town was burned down.

Page 867

1 Q. What part of the town was this?

2 A. Part of the town where mostly Muslim population lived.

3 Q. How were you able to see that?

4 A. I could see that because we were allowed to go to the third floor to

5 the same physics classroom where from you could see the whole town,

6 mostly the whole town.

7 Q. During the time you were at this school, were you able to see any

8 other military activity in the town?

9 A. Yes. From a nearby hill in Rogatica, very often two to three tanks

10 would fire on the town. In front of the school building there was a

11 tank that was firing at the town every day.

12 Q. Did you recognise these tanks as JNA tanks?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When did you leave the school?

15 A. On 27th June 1992.

16 Q. How many others, if any, were taken with you?

17 A. That day some 200 people were taken away, men women and children.

18 Q. Were any left behind at the school?

19 A. Yes, some 50 people were left behind.

20 Q. Did you know these people?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What were their occupations?

23 A. Some of them were doctors, some were engineers, some were workers,

24 for example, plumbers, electricians, garage mechanics, and so on.

25 Q. These ones that remained behind, what was their ethnic group?

Page 868

1 A. Muslims.

2 Q. Those who went with you of those that you knew, what was their

3 ethnic group?

4 A. (Translation not audibly recorded).

5 Q. Did anyone tell you why your group was being taken away?

6 A. Yes. Kusic came that day to the school with his body guards and he

7 told us that we were going on what he called "free territory", that

8 is, the territory of central Bosnia, which was mostly controlled by

9 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 JUDGE STEPHEN: Can I interrupt for a moment? I did not get the response

11 to the question: "Those who went with you, what was their ethnic

12 group?" I see it is not on the transcript either.

13 MISS HOLLIS: Sorry, your Honour. Could you tell us, please, the ethnic

14 group of those who went with you?

15 A. They were all Muslims.

16 Q. When you were taken from the school how were you transported?

17 A. Transported with civilian buses and civilian trucks.

18 Q. Did you have any escorts with you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you recognise these escorts?

21 A. Yes, they were members of the Serb militia which I knew from earlier

22 on.

23 Q. When you refer to the Serb militia what are you referring to by

24 "militia"?

25 A. When I say the Serb militia, I mean the same, the same police that

Page 869

1 split up from the regular police and which founded this Serb militia

2 or police.

3 Q. When you were taken from the school where were you taken?

4 A. I was stopped. We were told that all the men aged between 16 and 65

5 had to get down, and when we left those vehicles the convoy continued

6 and 28 men, we were taken to an agricultural farm near the town, on

7 the outskirts of the town.

8 Q. These other people who continued on, did that group include your

9 mother, grandmother and aunt?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. This farm that you were taken to, how long were you held there?

12 A. I stayed there up until 15th July 1992.

13 Q. While you were there, how many other people were being held there?

14 A. 28.

15 Q. That same 28 who were taken off the bus?

16 A. Yes. They were the same 28 people that got off the bus and there

17 were also three people that we could not see, but we knew they were

18 there.

19 Q. Were you guarded while you were at the farm?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you know any of these guards?

22 A. Yes, those were mostly people that captured us. They guarded us at

23 the school and they escorted us there. I knew most of those people.

24 Q. After this 20 days that you were held at this farm, where were you

25 taken?

Page 870

1 A. I was taken to the Susica camp near Vlasenica.

2 Q. How were you transported there?

3 A. I was transported on civilian buses.

4 Q. Did you have any type of escort?

5 A. Yes, we had escorts.

6 Q. Did you know any of these escorts?

7 A. (Translation not audibly recorded)

8 MISS HOLLIS: I am sorry, I did not get that answer.

9 THE WITNESS: We knew them all. Yes, I knew them all.

10 MISS HOLLIS: What was the ethnic group of these escorts?

11 A. Serbs.

12 Q. What uniforms or what clothing did they wear?

13 A. Camouflage uniforms of olive grey green colour.

14 Q. Did they have any type of insignia or patches on their uniforms?

15 A. Serb Bosnian Republic.

16 Q. On your trip between this farm and the camp of Susica, was the bus

17 stopped?

18 A. Yes, we were told that we would be going to Kladanj to be exchanged,

19 but the bus stopped at a crossroads at the junction between

20 Vlasenica, Kladanj and Sehovici, a place called Tisce.

21 Q. What happened when the bus stopped?

22 A. At the junction was a checkpoint and two soldiers came on the bus

23 that personally reminded me of Chetniks.

24 Q. What was it about them that reminded you of Chetniks?

25 A. As I knew in the second, what, in the Second World War the Chetniks

Page 871

1 looked like; these also had long beards, were dressed in a very

2 untidy way, they were drunken and carried arms.

3 Q. What types of clothing were they wearing?

4 A. SMB uniforms.

5 Q. When they entered the bus, what did they do?

6 A. They were swearing, threatening us that they would kill us

7 straightaway and they wanted

8 us to get off the bus.

9 Q. Did they use any type of ethnic slurs?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What did they say?

12 A. They swore at our Turkish, Muslim, balija mother.

13 Q. When you arrived at Susica, how long did you remain there?

14 A. At Susica I stayed one night.

15 Q. Where were you taken from Susica?

16 A. I was taken to the camp Batkovic.

17 Q. How were you taken there?

18 A. Transported on a civilian bus.

19 Q. Did you have any escorts with you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you know of any of those escorts?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Where were they from?

24 A. All of them where from Rogatica.

25 Q. What was their ethnic group?

Page 872

1 A. Serbs.

2 Q. How were they dressed?

3 A. Some of them wore grey, olive green military uniforms, some of them

4 wore the grey, olive green camouflage uniforms.

5 Q. Did they have any type of patches or insignia on their uniforms?

6 A. Some of them had patches of the army of the Bosnian-Serb Republic.

7 Q. How long were you held at Batkovic camp?

8 A. One year and five days.

9 Q. The guards at the Batkovic camp, during the year that you were there,

10 what type of uniforms or clothing did they wear?

11 A. Some of them wore grey, olive green military trousers, and the same

12 type of shirts, but were unbuttoned and dirty. Some of them wore

13 grey uniforms, they were really wearing civilian clothes and some of

14 them had a combination with sneakers and military trousers.

15 Q. When you first arrived at Batkovic, to your knowledge, who was the

16 Commander of the camp there?

17 A. The Commander of the camp was a man named Vejlo.

18 Q. How long was he in command while you were at Batkovic?

19 A. He was a Commander for some three months.

20 Q. What type of clothing did he wear?

21 A. Trousers and grey, olive green shirt and he wore a green beret ---

22 Q. Did he wear any type of rank -----

23 A. -- a red beret.

24 Q. Did he wear any type of rank insignia?

25 A. Corporal, a JNA corporal.

Page 873

1 Q. Was that a JNA corporal or a JNA sergeant?

2 A. Lance corporal.

3 Q. What was the treatment that you received while he was in charge of

4 the Batkovic camp?

5 A. (Translation not audibly recorded).

6 Q. I did not get any translation.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have not either; the question was: "What was the

8 treatment that you received while you were (sic) in charge -- while

9 you were in the Batkovic camp".

10 MISS HOLLIS: While Veljo was in charge.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: While Veljo was in charge, what was your treatment?

12 THE WITNESS: We were treated very badly.

13 MISS HOLLIS: During the time that Veljo was in charge, did you see any

14 persons die as a result of their treatment in the camp?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What did you see?

17 A. One night some 10 guards from the camp took out a person they called

18 "professor", I think he came from the area of Bijeljina. He was

19 beaten the whole night through and Veljo was with them. In the

20 morning when dawn broke out, I saw that the man was dead.

21 Q. Did you see anyone else killed while you were in the camp while Veljo

22 was in charge?

23 A. Yes, in the same way two elderly men were killed, and a man was

24 killed because he was shot at.

25 Q. Who were the people who beat these men and who was the person who

Page 874

1 shot at the other men?

2 A. These were mostly the guards that guarded the camp.

3 Q. You say "mostly", who else was involved?

4 A. I said "mostly" because the access was allowed to the camp to all the

5 soldiers that would come in the area, any one of them could come to

6 the camp and beat anyone of the prisoners.

7 Q. These soldiers who had come from the outside, what types of uniforms

8 would they wear?

9 A. (Translation not audibly recorded).

10 Q. I am sorry. I did not get the translation.

11 A. They wore grey, olive green camouflage uniforms, so grey, olive green

12 camouflage uniforms.

13 Q. Did they wear any type of insignia or patches on these uniforms?

14 A. Some of them had the emblems with a cross and four letters "S".

15 Q. Had you seen that emblem before?

16 A. I think that was the emblem of the Serb Republic of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I think that is where I saw that emblem.

18 Q. In addition to these people, did any non-Serbs in the camp take part

19 in the beatings or abuse?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Who was that?

22 A. Two men whose nicknames I know and I know they were Muslim.

23 Q. What were their nicknames?

24 A. One was called "Spajzer" and the other one was called "Pike".

25 Q. After Veljo left the camp, did the treatment improve at the camp?

Page 875

1 A. Yes, slightly.

2 Q. Did the beatings continue?

3 A. Yes, but less, less frequently.

4 Q. During the time you were at Batkovic, were you forced to perform any

5 duties outside the camp?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What types of duties were you required to perform?

8 A. On the first line, front line and I was cutting trees.

9 Q. When you were digging trenches at the front line, how would you be

10 taken to this area?

11 A. While I was digging trenches, and that was at Majevica, we were

12 located at the town of Lopare, and from there we were taken on

13 military trucks to the place where we worked.

14 Q. How were you taken from Batkovic camp to Lopare?

15 A. Military trucks.

16 Q. The persons who took you from the camp to Lopare, were they camp

17 personnel, camp guards?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you know who these people were who transported you from the camp

20 to Lopare?

21 A. Those were the people who lived in the village of Batkovic, that was

22 nearby, near the camp.

23 Q. How were these people dressed?

24 A. (Translation not audibly recorded).

25 Q. I do not believe there was a translation.

Page 876

1 A. Grey, olive green military uniforms.

2 Q. During the time that you were digging these trenches at the front

3 line, was there any type of fighting going on?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was there any firing towards the areas where you were digging

6 trenches?

7 A. Yes, every day.

8 Q. During the time that you were at Batkovic camp, or at these locations

9 where you had to perform these duties, were there any kinds of songs

10 that you were required to sing?

11 A. Yes, they requested.

12 Q. Who made the requests for this?

13 A. It was requested by camp guards or soldiers who came to the camp from

14 time to time.

15 Q. What types of songs did they request that you sing?

16 A. They requested us to sing mostly Serb national songs.

17 Q. Do you recall the lyrics of any of those songs.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Without singing it, of course, could you tell us what the lyrics of

20 some of those songs were?

21 A. Yes, "Who says who lies that Serbia is small".

22 Q. Had you heard these songs before?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In what context or where would you have heard them?

25 A. In the spring of 1992, as I was a Reserve policeman, I could hear

Page 877

1 such songs on the premises -- in facilities in public facilities held

2 by people of Serb origin.

3 Q. During the time you were at Batkovic, did the ICRC visit the camp?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who was in command when this first visit occurred?

6 A. Veljo.

7 Q. When this first visit occurred, was it the first visit that the

8 inmates of the camp were registered by the ICRC?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Prior to this visit, to your knowledge, were any of the camp inmates

11 taken away from the camp?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who were these people who were taken away?

14 A. Those were mostly people over 60 years of age and children below the

15 age of 16, and those who had been battered badly before that.

16 Q. Was there a special group of men in the camp who received worse

17 treatment than others?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How many men were in this group?

20 A. About 20.

21 Q. Of the men who were taken away that day, did you know any of them?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What was the ethnic group of those that you knew?

24 A. Muslims.

25 Q. Were the inmates told what to say when the ICRC arrived?

Page 878

1 A. Yes, they gave us instructions what we were to say when they came.

2 Q. What were you to say?

3 A. I had to say that we were fine in the camp; that the food was great;

4 that nobody was beating us; that they were giving us cigarettes;

5 that we could move around.

6 Q. Were all those things true?

7 A. None of them.

8 Q. What would happen if you did not say those things?

9 A. The one who did not obey was battered.

10 Q. When did you leave Batkovic camp?

11 A. On 21st July 1993.

12 Q. How was it that you were allowed to leave?

13 A. I left the camp through the mediation of the ICRC and the UNHCR.

14 Q. Prior to the attack on Rogatica, were you a member of an anti-Serb

15 military or paramilitary organisation?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Prior to that attack were you a member of any organised anti-Serb

18 resistance group?

19 A. No.

20 Q. After the attack on Rogatica, were you a member of any of these types

21 of organisations?

22 A. No.

23 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you. Your Honour, I have no further questions.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes, please.

25 (11.34 a.m.)

Page 879

1 (The hearing adjourned for a short time)

2 (11.50 a.m.)

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You had completed direct, Miss Hollis?

4 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Cross-examination?

6 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I have some cross-examination of this witness.

7 Cross-examined by MR. KAY

8 Q. The first matter I would like to detail with is uniforms. You have

9 told us that originally you were in the regular military police, is

10 that right, Mr. Pasic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You were in the regular military police during 1987. How long did

13 you serve in the JNA regular military police for?

14 A. The regular JNA military police, I served from 17th September 1986 to

15 17th August 1987, eleven months.

16 Q. The uniform that you describe as having worn for that year, did that

17 remain the uniform of the regular JNA military police?

18 A. After my service in the JNA ended, that uniform remained the regular

19 uniform.

20 Q. You then joined the Reserve military police, but it did not require a

21 great deal of your time because it was only concerned with duties

22 amounting to one or two days each year?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you issued with a separate uniform then for the Reserve military

25 police?

Page 880

1 A. Special uniform for the Reserve military police I received in the

2 beginning of 1988.

3 Q. Could you describe that uniform to us?

4 A. That uniform was identical with the uniform of the traffic military

5 police, except that it was grey rather than grey, olive green.

6 Q. You were then called up to join the regular police in September 1991.

7 By "regular police" do you mean the ordinary police of the town

8 rather than the military police?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The regular police uniform that you were issued with, what did that

11 consist of, what was its colour?

12 A. It was the same uniform I was issued in the beginning of 1988, that

13 is, the same military uniform except that it was grey.

14 Q. Except that it was grey; would it not be the case that it was the

15 same in colour because the Reserve military police uniform was grey?

16 A. Yes, the same.

17 Q. Right. Were there also Reserve police who were issued with a

18 uniform, not being part of the regular police but Reserve Police

19 Forces?

20 A. All of us who were issued these uniforms were part of the regular

21 police as the Reserve force.

22 Q. So the Reserve police also wore a grey uniform?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You have told us that you were issued with a weapon, an automatic

25 rifle; was the Reserve police also issued with weapons?

Page 881

1 A. Yes, we were all issued automatic rifles.

2 Q. That is, the Reserve police as well as the regular police were issued

3 with weapons?

4 A. Yes, as of September 1991.

5 Q. You described being issued with 150 bullets as well?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you have to sign for these weapons from the department or the

8 section of the police that issued them to you?

9 A. Yes, I signed both for the weapons and the equipment I was issued.

10 Q. So there would be a record of the issue of this weapon to you?

11 A. The record was issued before the war; whether there are any now, I

12 would not know.

13 Q. I understand. Can you tell us again the date when you resigned from

14 the regular police?

15 A. It was on 30th March 1992.

16 Q. Your resignation was to whom? Who did you go to see to tell them

17 that you did not want to continue in the regular police?

18 A. At that time there was the deputy police commander. He was in the

19 building of the police station, and I told him that I did not want to

20 be part of the police any longer and I gave my uniform and weapons

21 back to him.

22 Q. Were there any others in the regular police who also resigned at the

23 same time as you?

24 A. A friend of mine resigned. He was also on the Reserve police.

25 Q. Before your resignation, had others also resigned from the regular

Page 882

1 police over the months beforehand?

2 A. Except for the people of Serb ethnic origin who left the police

3 station and joined the Serb police, the police of the Serb Republic,

4 nobody else resigned.

5 Q. So, can you give as an idea then of the numbers that remained in the

6 regular police that you had previously been a part of? How many were

7 acting as policemen for the regular police?

8 A. Including the Reserve and active duty policemen, there were some 50

9 men in the regular Police Force.

10 Q. You told us about the division of the police and the formation of the

11 Serbian police unit. How many people worked for that unit?

12 A. I do not know the exact number of those who worked for the police of

13 the Serb Republic because I was never there, that is, I was never

14 part of that.

15 Q. I would like to ask you again a little bit more about the uniform

16 that would have been worn at that time by the regular police. First

17 of all, the head wear, caps or berets, what was the head wear that

18 was worn?

19 A. The regular police who received -- who were paid for the duty, they

20 wore caps with a shield. The Reserve police had military caps.

21 Q. Did the uniform remain the same at this time, in March 1992, at the

22 time of your resignation?

23 A. As regards regular Police Forces of the Republic of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the uniform remained the same.

25 Q. The Reserve police, that uniform remained the same as well?

Page 883

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You had your own pistol that you kept in your house that you told us

3 of this morning; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was that a licensed weapon?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You had had that for how long?

8 A. That pistol belonged to my father and when he died in 1985, in April,

9 I inherited the pistol and from that time until the beginning of the

10 war I had it.

11 Q. You told us about the distribution of weapons amongst the population

12 in your town. You said that the Muslim population were carrying no

13 weapons ---

14 A. No.

15 Q. -- yet you told us subsequently that there were some 50 Muslim people

16 who did have weapons and who were giving resistance at the time that

17 the town was attacked?

18 A. Individuals who did have weapons and resisted at the time were using

19 weapons, their own weapons they had as hunting weapons or small

20 firearms, so that is mostly pistols.

21 Q. How do you know this? How do you know that they only had hunting

22 weapons or their own pistols?

23 A. Because I was near that part where these people were and I could see

24 the kind of weapons they had.

25 Q. So it comes to this: you did, in fact, see Muslims carrying weapons?

Page 884

1 A. Yes, I saw Muslims carrying weapons as of 22nd May 1992 -- not

2 before.

3 Q. Before that time, had there been any areas of your town that had been

4 cordoned off by some of the Muslim population with their own road

5 blocks?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Had there been any mobilization of the Muslim people?

8 A. No.

9 Q. On 22nd May then when you say you saw these people with weapons,

10 whereabouts were you?

11 A. On 22nd May, I was in my flat and after that I once went to this

12 square, to the town square, where most of the Muslim people were and

13 that is where I saw those people with weapons.

14 Q. How many days after 22nd May was it that you went to the square?

15 A. Two or three days after.

16 Q. In the two or three days before you went to the square, had you left

17 your flat at all? I believe you said you were in the basement?

18 A. I spent in the cellar most of the time and I did not leave it.

19 Q. During that time had you heard gun shots?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Had you also heard louder explosions than gun shots?

22 A. Yes, I heard shelling, the echoes of shells.

23 Q. Did you hear detonations as if bombs were exploding?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Slightly smaller detonations as if hand grenades were exploding?

Page 885

1 A. No.

2 Q. This activity was taking place where?

3 A. In the territory of the town of Rogatica.

4 Q. Your apartment was in the town itself?

5 A. Yes, in the centre of the town.

6 Q. The explosions that were taking place, were they explosions that you

7 could hear from all parts of the town?

8 A. Well, I was in the cellar of my building, and when I heard those

9 explosions it seemed to me that those explosions were taking place in

10 front of my building, but during intermissions, during the brief

11 breaks, between the shellings, when I would go up to my flat I could

12 see that a large part or the central part of the town had been

13 destroyed which meant that explosions were coming from that

14 direction.

15 Q. You heard the sound of gun shots. Did you hear the sounds of machine

16 guns or did you hear the sounds of rifles or small arms fire?

17 A. The shots I heard were mostly from automatic weapons and they came in

18 bursts.

19 Q. You did not know what was taking place where that fighting was

20 happening? You did not know what was happening?

21 A. Well, I knew then that the town was being shelled, that the town was

22 being destroyed; nothing else. I could gather that from the place

23 where I was.

24 Q. But you did not know who was fighting whom?

25 A. I knew who was shelling the town.

Page 886

1 Q. You were inside your basement, your cellar of your apartment, so,

2 presumably, you could not see what was happening with shelling, where

3 it was coming from, who was doing it?

4 A. During the night the shelling would stop, and then with my family I

5 would go up to my flat for reasons of hygiene and food, of course,

6 and while I would be in the flat shelling would start again. Out of

7 the window I could clearly see light bullets and the shells and what

8 direction they were coming from.

9 Q. This was night-time?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In relation to fighting that was taking place then, you were not

12 actually there at the time to see what was happening; is that right?

13 A. I am sorry, I do not understand the question.

14 Q. You could not see if Muslims were, in fact, fighting the others

15 because you were not there, you were not there watching fighting

16 taking place? You were in your flat?

17 A. As I have said, some 50 individuals in the central square were armed

18 mostly with hunting rifles and pistols, and the town was shelled from

19 nearby clearings or hills with artillery and anti-aircraft weaponry;

20 and I really see no purpose how it can people with rifles defend

21 themselves against artillery or anti-aircraft weapons firing from

22 that distance.

23 Q. I thought you told us that you saw in this square two or three days

24 later about 50 Muslims with weapons at that time?

25 A. Yes, I did see those people.

Page 887

1 Q. In the time before then, did you see those same people fighting in

2 the square shooting their weapons in that period of the two or three

3 days before you saw them in the square?

4 A. No, I did not see those people shooting.

5 Q. But what you did see two or three days later were a number of people,

6 about 50 in number, with weapons in the square?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. But as to what other people were doing with weapons elsewhere

9 previously, you yourself did not see?

10 A. No.

11 MR. KAY: Thank you. No further questions.


13 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour.

14 Re-examined by MISS HOLLIS

15 Q. Mr. Pasic, let us talk a moment about the way the police were

16 organised in the former Yugoslavia. We understand that the JNA was

17 organised into an active duty component and a Reserve component. Is

18 it your testimony that the police were also organised into some type

19 of active duty component, that is, full-time regular policemen and a

20 Reserve component?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You were a member of this Reserve component; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. It was the members of the Reserve police component who wore the grey

25 uniforms?

Page 888

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. The members of this active duty component, if you will, of the

3 police, what colour was their uniform?

4 A. Trousers were grey, shirts light blue, and jackets blue.

5 Q. So, the shirts were blue, the jackets were blue, that was the active

6 duty police; and the Reserve police wore all grey in their uniform?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In September 1991 when you began to work each day as a policeman,

9 were you still a Reserve policeman or had you become a part of the

10 active duty component?

11 A. I was a Reserve policeman but I worked full-time like active duty

12 forces.

13 Q. When you were being asked about hearing detonations and explosions

14 and volleys of firing while you were in the cellar, you indicated

15 that at one point you came up and you were able to observe that most

16 of the destruction was in the central part of the city; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. To your knowledge, as of 22nd May, what group or groups were still

20 living in the central part of the city?

21 A. Inhabitants who lived in the centre of the town were Muslims.

22 Q. Had there at one time prior to 22nd May also been Serbs who had lived

23 in the central part of the town?

24 A. In that part of the town before 22nd May, I might say April and

25 before that, there was a mixed population made of Serbs and Muslims.

Page 889

1 In early May, in the first half of May, the Serb population left

2 that part of the town and all those parts of the town where the

3 Muslims made up the majority, they all moved to those parts of the

4 town where there were Serbs living or went out of town.

5 Q. You also testified that at some point you were able to come up from

6 the cellar at night-time and you observed firing at night. I believe

7 you indicated that you saw tracer rounds coming into the town; is

8 that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. From what area were these tracer rounds coming?

11 A. Those tracer rounds came from a village inhabited mostly by Serbs.

12 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, no further questions.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any additional questions?

14 JUDGE STEPHEN: I have one question to ask about the digging of trenches.

15 You told us that you dug trenches at the front. Were you a

16 volunteer? Did you volunteer to dig those trenches or were you

17 compelled to dig them?

18 A. Well, during my stay in the Batkovic camp, that is, as of the day

19 when I was captured to the day of my release, I had no right to do

20 anything of my own will. I was compelled to do all that I did.

21 Q. The others with you who also were digging trenches, were they in the

22 same position as you?

23 A. All the inmates were in the same, in the identical, position as I

24 was; they had no right to decide on anything.

25 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

Page 890

1 JUDGE VOHRAH: Mr. Pasic, you mentioned that when the ICRC people visited

2 the detention centre, you were told to tell them things that did not

3 really happen in your experience, and you said that those who refused

4 to tell them what they were told to say were beaten. Were there

5 occasions when some of your colleagues refused to tell them as they

6 were instructed?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Pasic, you testified that 66 per cent of the

10 population of Rogatica were Muslims; is that correct?

11 A. 66 per cent in the municipality of Rogatica.

12 Q. In the city?

13 A. And in the city the ratio was 62 to 37.

14 Q. Did you have a mayor of Rogatica?

15 A. We had a mayor.

16 Q. Who was the mayor in 1990/1991?

17 A. Do you need his name?

18 Q. No, just really what political party.

19 A. He belonged to the SDA and he was a Muslim.

20 Q. When were the elections that led to his becoming the mayor,

21 approximately?

22 A. They took place in 1991. I would not know the exact date.

23 Q. Did the SDA win most of the positions for the town government?

24 A. The SDA won 20 seats in the town government of the total of 50. The

25 Muslims, that is, people of Muslim origin who were Council men

Page 891

1 accounted for -- no, 30 of -- of 50 Council men, 30 were Muslims;

2 there were 20 Serbs.

3 Q. So the Muslims were in political control, I gather, then of Rogatica

4 in 1991, is that true?

5 A. Yes, the Muslims won the elections in Rogatica.

6 Q. You testified that at the end of 1991, or the beginning of 1992, you

7 began to see an increase in the JNA. Did you actually see a number

8 of troops of the JNA in Rogatica?

9 A. I said that I noticed a group of JNA or, rather, columns of the

10 Yugoslav People's Army passing through the town and sometimes

11 staying for a day or two on the outskirts of the town. It did not

12 happen before.

13 Q. Did the JNA leave any of their equipment with them after they would

14 leave?

15 A. On passing through, they would fire at the town so that is part of

16 the equipment, but I did not see that they had left anything behind

17 -- at least, I did not see it myself.

18 Q. Were you able to determine what type of uniforms they were wearing?

19 A. Grey olive military uniforms.

20 Q. Is that the SMB uniform?

21 A. SMB uniforms.

22 Q. When this Serb autonomous area was established in the spring of 1992,

23 do you know how it came to be established? Was there an election or

24 can you tell me how this autonomous area was established?

25 A. As far as I know, that autonomous region was established with the

Page 892

1 help of the Serb Democratic Party that was present in the area

2 without any elections. They simply organised themselves and

3 proclaimed that region and everything that went with it.

4 Q. Did Muslims and Serbs live primarily in different parts of the town?

5 A. Two or three parts of the town were purely either Muslim or Serb, but

6 in most parts of the town they lived together, so it was mixed.

7 Q. In the area where the autonomous region was declared, the Serb

8 autonomous region, was that an area occupied exclusively by Serbs?

9 A. The whole area of the municipality of Rogatica was included in there

10 without asking anybody or asking anyone's permission.

11 Q. So what were the geographical boundaries of the semi-autonomous area

12 that was established?

13 A. The geographical boundaries were the territories of the opstinas of

14 Pale, Sokolac, Han Pijesak and Rogatica. I am not sure, I think also

15 the area of the municipality of Vlasenica.

16 Q. What I am trying to determine is where this semi-autonomous Serb

17 region was established in the spring -- was it the spring of 1992 --

18 where in Rogatica?

19 A. It was established mostly in parts of the opstina of Rogatica where

20 mostly lived Serb inhabitants, because there was no way that anyone

21 would be against it in those parts.

22 Q. Were there any Muslims living in that area at the time?

23 A. Yes, they lived but in small numbers.

24 Q. Did they remain in that area after it was declared to be a

25 semi-autonomous area?

Page 893

1 A. Some of them remained; some of them had to leave.

2 Q. Who was the head of the police department in the spring of 1992 when

3 it was divided? Was he a Croat, a Muslim, a Serb?

4 A. The head of the Police Force the day before the division was a

5 Muslim.

6 Q. Were you still with the police at that point? You resigned in, was

7 it, March 1992 or May?

8 A. The same day when the police department was divided, that is, on 30th

9 March 1992, I left the police department.

10 Q. Who gave an order to divide the police department, if you know?

11 A. The order for the division of the police department was issued by the

12 Serb municipality of Rogatica, and the Serb Crisis Committee which

13 had been established in that area.

14 Q. The Muslim Chief of Police followed that order, is that what you are

15 saying?

16 A. In fact, nobody asked him anything, because the policemen who were

17 Serbs by nationality, they were told to divide and to leave the

18 regular police. So they divided these two police stations and

19 established a new one out of their own will.

20 Q. You testified that they then wore camouflage uniforms with an emblem

21 of the Serb Republic on it, the new unit of the police, the Serb unit

22 that separated?

23 A. Yes, most of them wore such uniforms although, to begin with, they

24 looked in a pretty disorganised way, so some people wore these SMB

25 uniforms at first or they were even wearing civilian clothes, but on

Page 894

1 their arms they had an emblem showing that they belonged to the Serb

2 police.

3 Q. Had you seen this emblem of the Serb Republic before this division of

4 the police department, or before you testified that you were at a

5 checkpoint and you saw a civilian vehicle with licence plates from

6 Macedonia, I believe, and you said that you saw some persons in a

7 uniform in that car with a Serb Republic emblem, had you seen that

8 emblem before that time?

9 A. Such an emblem, I could see from time to time while I was working at

10 a restaurant because uniformed people would come there and I could

11 see them wear such an emblem, but that was at the beginning of 1992.

12 Q. What uniforms did the soldiers who were in the Serb unit headed by

13 Kusic, is it, what uniform did they wear?

14 A. Mostly they wore SMB camouflage uniforms and wearing red -- I am

15 sorry, black berets.

16 Q. Can you tell me what the Crisis Committee headquarters is?

17 A. The Crisis Headquarters Committee, this is a group of people that

18 were to organise the people that are in danger in any kind of way.

19 Q. Who was the head of it? I thought you had testified that Mr. Kusic

20 established the Crisis Headquarters, and at that time he was the head

21 of the SDS?

22 A. Yes, Rajko Kusic founded the brigade. He was a member of the SDS

23 party. He was one of the leaders. He founded the Serb opstina and

24 he was one of the most prominent people of the Crisis Headquarters.

25 I do not know whether he was the head of it, but he

Page 895

1 was one of the most prominent people there because -- I do not, I

2 cannot tell you more about it. I do not know whether he was really

3 the head of it.

4 Q. What was the purpose of the Crisis Committee Headquarters?

5 A. As far as I know, the purpose was that all the Serb population in the

6 Rogatica opstina would get organised in the best possible way,

7 meaning that all the population aged between 16 and 65 that were able

8 to fight, they should be included and organised in such kinds of

9 activities.

10 Q. When was that established, that Crisis Committee Headquarters, if you

11 know?

12 A. It was established in the spring of 1992.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, additional questions?

14 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour.

15 Further re-examined by MISS HOLLIS

16 Q. Mr. Pasic, as I understand it from your testimony, the Serb

17 autonomous region was composed of several opstinas; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was the Serb autonomous region composed of the entire part of each

20 opstina, or only those portions of the opstina in which Serbs lived?

21 A. When the Serb autonomous region of Romanija was established, the

22 creation were called people from the Serb Democratic Party, that is,

23 the people who were Serb, and they established that region which

24 included all the opstinas I mentioned, and regardless of the

25 territory, that means that the Serb autonomous region was comprised

Page 896

1 of the entire areas of all the opstinas that I mentioned.

2 Q. So both the Serb and the non-Serb areas of those opstinas?

3 A. Yes, it included all the areas. They did not ask anyone from those

4 areas whether they wanted to join or not into that region.

5 Q. In that same regard, I believe you testified that after some seven

6 days of shelling a group came into the city of Rogatica, into the

7 town, and demanded that the Muslims there take

8 a loyalty oath; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. It was a loyalty oath to whom? To whom were they to be loyal?

11 A. They had to be loyal towards the Serb opstina of Rogatica and the

12 power, the authorities of that opstina, which meant that the Muslims

13 should leave all the authority in the opstina of Rogatica to the

14 Serbs.

15 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you. No further questions.


17 MR. KAY: Nothing arising.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. You may be excused. Thank you very much for

19 coming. Any objection to being permanently excused?

20 MR. KAY: No.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you Mr. Pasic you may leave.

22 (The witness withdrew)

23 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, if Miss Sutherland could return Prosecution

24 Exhibit 73?

25 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, the Prosecution's next witness is Hanne Sophie

Page 897

1 Greve. However, I understand the Defence wishes to raise an

2 objection with the court prior to her taking the stand.


4 MR. KAY: Your Honour I mentioned this sometime ago when this witness was

5 on the list concerning her testimony, that there be objection in part

6 to what she has to say. In those circumstances, it is a matter of

7 law that we should properly deal with before she is sworn and so that

8 the court has an idea to the nature of the objection.

9 Your Honour, I have had a brief bundle for the court relating to

10 the matters that I raise and I am looking for someone to --

11 (documents handed).

12 Before we go into that, may I perhaps outline the nature of the

13 evidence that this witness is proposed to give. We have been provided

14 with a proffer of testimony on behalf of this witness which is a

15 summary of what it is proposed that she will deal with over the day

16 or so that she has been listed on the Prosecution schedule. In

17 addition to that, her purpose of being called is in a capacity of an

18 expert witness and we have been supplied with a copy of her

19 curriculum vitae. We are aware of the role that she has played in

20 relation to the background of this case, because she prepared a

21 report for the United Nations specifically on the Prijedor area as a

22 matter of research. I do not know how familiar the court is with

23 that, but we certainly have it with us.

24 This morning the Prosecution supplied me with extracts from

25 that report which are specific matters that she will be referring to

Page 898

1 in giving evidence amounting to some 60 pages or so

2 Now we are in the position here of objection being taken on the

3 basis of the kind of evidence that this witness will be giving as an

4 expert, but to do that it is very difficult to address the court in

5 the abstract, being the judges as of law as well as the judges of

6 fact. This is a witness who will be seeking to present before the

7 court various materials prepared by her in the preparation of her

8 report for the United Nations in support of her testimony. I am

9 going to have to feel my way as to how far the Tribunal can look at

10 her proposed testimony which we are seeking to exclude from the

11 evidence before the court.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Why are you seeking to exclude her testimony and

13 what portions of her testimony?

14 MR. KAY: She is being called as an expert witness who is giving evidence

15 relating to reports and research undertaken by her; interviews with

16 perhaps witnesses who are to be called by the Prosecution in this

17 case or other witnesses who have been involved with events before the

18 court, as well as detailed extracts from books that have been

19 published, books that are on popular sale, one by a gentleman called

20 Mr. Vulliamy and another Prosecution witness, newspaper reports ----

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Let me, if I may, interrupt you one moment.

22 Perhaps the best way to approach this is to hear from the Prosecutor

23 first to determine who this witness is, what they expect her

24 testimony to be and then let me hear your objection. I am trying to

25 put it in a proper framework and I have not yet gotten to why you are

Page 899

1 objecting. I think it is because of what she will testify to, but I

2 know nothing about her other than her name.

3 MR. KAY: This is the problem that I indicated to the court in dealing

4 with the matter.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sure, you mentioned the name, but you did not tell

6 us anything about the witness or what would be the basis of the

7 objection. So if we can just hear generally what the testimony would

8 be then and then you tell me.

9 MR. KAY: I have no objection to that.

10 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. The witness is Hanne Sophie Greve who

11 is a judge of the Court of Appeals of Norway, also a trial judge,

12 with extensive experience in humanitarian law investigations with

13 international conflicts, and was appointed to the Commission of

14 Experts which was established pursuant to UN Resolution under the

15 Security Council's powers under Chapter VII, and who in the course of

16 her work with the Commission focused on the Prijedor region and,

17 indeed, did initiate an independent stud

18 of that region in conjunction with her examination and evaluation of

19 all other available materials.

20 The Commission of Experts' Resolution called upon international

21 humanitarian organisations to collate and present to the Commission

22 all available materials on the conflict, of course including

23 Prijedor. In addition to reviewing and evaluating that, she

24 undertook a very specific investigation into the Prijedor region,

25 part of which consisted of interviews with witnesses, indeed

Page 900

1 approximately 400 witnesses, who were interviewed by police officers

2 and legal officials and government officials in six different

3 countries around the world.

4 If I can put her proposed testimony in proper context, I take

5 the Court back to Dr. Gow's testimony and remind the court that Dr.

6 Gow was asked some specific questions about Prijedor both by the

7 Defence and by the Court. He properly demurred, noting that his

8 expertise concerned the region as a whole and the conflict as a whole

9 and, therefore, not specific areas of the conflict. The Court

10 expressed, I think, an understandable and reasonable expectation that

11 someone would follow who was an expert about that region. That is

12 precisely who Judge Greve is and what we propose she testifies about.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Tell me again, what is her expertise? I understand

14 she is a judge. I understand she has experience in human rights. I

15 gather that -- was she working with the Commission of Experts?

16 MR. TIEGER: She was one of the Commissioners.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: And she interviewed a number of individuals. Of

18 course, in your system you would offer the witness as an expert in?

19 MR. TIEGER: The conflict in Prijedor, its background and nature and the

20 extent of the conflict.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: She will base her testimony on interviews that she

22 conducted or what?

23 MR. TIEGER: Interviews that were conducted at her behest by

24 professionals, lawyers, police officers, government officials in six

25 different countries, in almost 400 of those, interviews that were

Page 901

1 conducted by government officials in other places, so, perhaps

2 another 100 of those; on every document and the materials which were

3 presented pursuant to the Resolution which established the

4 Commission; on contact with embassies and government officials, from

5 both Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian sources -- I could go on.

6 Basically every possible contact she could make that would shed

7 light on the conflict she made.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Now, your objection, Mr. Kay?

9 MR. KAY: This is a witness being called to relay the reports that others

10 have provided for her and for her to give conclusions to this court

11 in relation to those reports and documents that she has been supplied

12 with which are, in effect, usurping the role of this Court, which

13 is to make findings of fact in relation to the events that took place

14 in the Prijedor region.

15 So, what we have here is not a witness with a technical,

16 scientific or any other expertise who would supply knowledge to

17 assist the Court in relation to matters that the Court may not

18 otherwise understand and need guidance upon, but she is being

19 presented as a witness who, as a result of her research interviews

20 being conducted by others that have been relayed to her (and we do

21 not know what process of language it has gone through to get to her)

22 including a number of Prosecution witnesses, that are not matters

23 that this Court will need expert guidance upon, because the

24 assessment of the witnesses that decisions concerning what was

25 happening in Prijedor are matters of judgment that the Tribunal is

Page 902

1 there to supply and we say the Tribunal is well able to supply.

2 It does not need a witness to come along as an expert to say: "I

3 have had provided to me the interviews of some 400 witnesses. I can

4 tell you that, as a result of reading newspapers, as a result of

5 speaking to journalists and reading books on the matter, I can advise

6 the Court that there was a conflict in Prijedor, that this act was

7 committed against one section of the population, by another section

8 of the population and these events took place in this form."

9 The nature of our objection is rather fundamental. It encompasses

10 whether expert opinion is needed on this matter as well as any

11 hearsay reports from witnesses who were actually experiencing those

12 events at the time.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Can you point the Trial Chamber to any particular

14 rule of our Rules of Procedure and Evidence which will govern the

15 trial and this Chamber, can you point us to any rule that you

16 consider supports your position that this evidence should be

17 excluded?

18 MR. KAY: Shall we turn to Rule 89 which is really the governing rule in

19 relation to rules of evidence


21 MR. KAY: Rule 89(A) makes a point we all know very well, that the

22 Tribunal is not bound by national rules of evidence. Subparagraph

23 (b): "In cases not otherwise provided for in this section, a Chamber

24 shall apply Rules of Evidence which will best favour a fair

25 determination of the matter before it and are consonant with the

Page 903

1 spirit of the Statute and the general principles of law; (c) A

2 Chamber may admit any relevant evidence which it deems to have

3 probative value; (d) a Chamber may exclude evidence if its probative

4 value is substantially outweighed by the need to ensure a fair

5 trial."

6 What the Tribunal has been told this morning is that the evidence

7 that this witness is proposed to give is the result of her research,

8 having had numerous discussions with other people, and I can tell

9 the Court, having seen the list of documents presented to me this

10 morning, including extracts from publications by journalists and

11 including extracts from books, newspaper reports.

12 So what we are having here is a witness being called to say: "I

13 have spoken and I have read about these matters and I can tell you

14 what I have been told."

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is your objection that their testimony will in part

16 be based on hearsay?

17 MR. KAY: We come into the hearsay realm straightaway, and one does not

18 know how many hands of hearsay; it may well be second, third

19 fourth-hand of hearsay. Furthermore, looking at Rule 89 which has

20 regard to evidence which will best favour a fair determination of the

21 matter before it and are consonant with the spirit of the Statute and

22 the general principles of law, I ask the Court to go straight to

23 principle so that we can consider, perhaps, why in many jurisdictions

24 such an approach would be objectionable on the basis of it, first

25 of all, providing hearsay evidence as well as providing conclusions

Page 904

1 upon a matter where the court does not need any expertise.

2 The purpose of this case is for the Prosecution to call evidence

3 from witnesses as to what was happening in the Prijedor region and

4 what took place, what their experiences were and what events were

5 that were leading up to those experiences. The Court has seen that

6 the list of witnesses. There are a substantial number who will be

7 giving eyewitness testimony as to what happened and relating their

8 direct experiences.

9 I have provided the court this morning with a small bundle. In

10 fact, the first two pages are the pages where I set out in very brief

11 form the principle that is concerned. It is headed "Opinion

12 Evidence". It was the first document in the bundle supplied to the

13 Court.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We have it. You have referred us to Rule 89, of

15 course, which is the general provisions governing our Rules of

16 Evidence. As you know, we do not have a rule that governs the

17 testimony of expert witnesses.

18 MR. KAY: Yes.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: There is a reference to an expert witness being

20 allowed to testify. Of course, in Rule 90, which is entitled

21 "Testimony of Witnesses", and that is 90(D), it says: "A witness

22 other than an expert" etc., "shall not be present when the testimony

23 of another witness is given." So we do not have a rule that -- and

24 we of course are close to a recess, so I imagine the best thing to do

25 is to take this material you have given us which are excerpts from

Page 905

1 various publications regarding expert evidence, we can take that and

2 look at it -- we do not have a rule that deals with expert testimony

3 and does not set out the parameters of expert testimony.

4 In my system, of course -- and this is very interesting because

5 out of all the lawyers probably Mr. Tieger is the only one who comes

6 from my system; of course Mr. Niemann is from Judge Stephen's system

7 and I think Judge Vohrah has a lot of experience from your system.

8 MR. KAY: Yes.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So, what we are asked to do I suppose is to listen

10 to you and accept your suggestion that we apply -- I guess this is

11 Cross and Taper on Evidence. Is that from England?

12 MR. KAY: I am not suggesting you apply the rules of any particular

13 nationality.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What is the second one?

15 MR. KAY: That is an extract from Archbold, including a case from South

16 Australia.


18 MR. KAY: Yes. We refer to Australian cases in our evidence quite

19 frequently. What I have done in the main paper, I have deliberately

20 avoided referring to the National Rules of Evidence and I have sought

21 to distil principle on the basis that principle is the best way to

22 argue the matter because we are most concerned with that within Rule

23 89.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would this apply to a jury as well as a non-jury

25 case, these principles you are advocating?

Page 906

1 MR. KAY: Yes. I have provided text there. I suppose lawyers feel lonely

2 without text and authorities to support them, but I have done that as

3 background material where argument is also set out cogently in

4 relation to all the matters. I hope that assists the Court. It is

5 right, it is the first time that we have had to deal with this point,

6 but we say it is an important matter of principles. We acknowledge

7 the fact that expert evidence is entitled to be called and we take no

8 objection to other aspects of the Prosecution case where expert

9 evidence will be used. What we say about this witness is that it is

10 strays beyond the traditional band of expertise that would be

11 required into an area of opinion and comment that is seeking to

12 provide conclusions to the Tribunal based on research otherwise

13 provided to it.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, is there anything that you would like to

15 provide the Chamber for us to look at over the noon recess?

16 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I do not have materials to provide the court. I

17 just received the bundle of materials immediately after the recess.

18 I will make an effort to gather any useful material for the court's

19 benefit during the break. However, I have a few comments, if I may.

20 First of all, let me outline the nature of the objection here

21 which has not been explicitly stated. The Defence is satisfied that

22 Judge Greve testifies along the lines of the proffer given up to and

23 including the attack on the Hambarine area in Prijedor. The

24 objection comes to events thereafter; that includes the attack and

25 cleansing of Kozarac, the collection of civilians, taking them to

Page 907

1 camps, conditions in camps and the periodic cleansings that followed.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That I did not understand. I understood that the

3 objection was to all of her testimony, at least in so far as if it

4 was seeking to offer opinion evidence and, I gather, an opinion based

5 on hearsay.

6 MR. TIEGER: That is the reference in the handout provided by the Defence

7 in the first paragraph, "The evidence concerning matters within the

8 experience of the witness that is relevant to the proceedings, no

9 objection is taken", I was advised orally that that refers to

10 portions of the proffer after paragraph 17 of the proffer. I have

11 just related the contents of that to the court.

12 With respect to the argument as to other matters which the

13 Prosecution proposes the witness testify to, first of all, the

14 Defence asserts that her testimony would usurp the rol

15 of the court. It is not intended to usurp the role of the court,

16 but to assist the role of the court. That is another way of

17 referring to the rule against expert witnesses, or any other witness,

18 testifying to the ultimate fact in issue. That is a rule which has

19 been expressly abandoned in the United States and I think eroded to

20 the point of extinction in many other jurisdictions. The emphasis

21 of that rule is certainly on the jury and the concern that a jury may

22 be so dazzled by the imprimatur of expert that they may fail to

23 exercise their independent judgment. That is not a risk here. This

24 witness can be cross-examined; the court can examine the witness; the

25 court can certainly assign the weight it deems proper to the

Page 908

1 testimony of this witness.

2 The Defence argues in its submission that this is something that

3 need not be assisted by an expert witness, and points out in the

4 submission, "If a cardinal of the Roman Catholic Church is testifying

5 before a jury and states that, in his opinion, the defendant was

6 driving negligently, it can hardly be supposed that the verdict would

7 be other than for the plaintiff." We, unfortunately, are not

8 dealing with a single car accident. Opstina Prijedor -----

9 JUDGE STEPHEN: It depends whether it is in Ulster or not!

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not know that this Tribunal would be so

11 overwhelmed even by the testimony of a cardinal. I think that we

12 were able to separate fact from fiction.

13 MR. TIEGER: Opstina Prijedor is a large area, your Honour. It is about

14 35 kilometres to 25 kilometres. That means from, perhaps,

15 Scheveningen beach to the airport, from here to Rotterdam. More than

16 50,000 Muslims and Croats were killed or forcibly expelled from that

17 area by a co-ordinated attack by Serbian political, military,

18 paramilitary and Police Forces all in furtherance of the goal of

19 creating a unified Serbian entity.

20 If the Prosecution were to call the number of witnesses

21 necessary to illuminate and clarify and explain the nature and

22 extent and interrelationship of that attack, and the camps which

23 followed which were an implementation and realisation of that goal,

24 we will be here for a very long time indeed.

25 The witnesses we are calling deal with specific acts -- the

Page 909

1 bulk of the witnesses we are calling deal with specific acts of the

2 defendant. We do not propose that this witness testify about any

3 specific acts of the defendant or specific victims. Indeed, this

4 witness will not be going into details about the camp, but to provide

5 the court with enough of a

6 understanding of the camps and of the cleansings so that the court

7 can appropriately understand the nature, extent and purpose of those

8 events in Prijedor.

9 JUDGE STEPHEN: Can I ask you, do you contemplate that this witness will,

10 among other things, give evidence which is no more than a recounting

11 of what she has been told some of the 400 witnesses that others

12 interviewed said?

13 MR. TIEGER: If I understand the court's question correctly, your Honour,

14 I think the answer would be, no. She is not going to relate specific

15 events related by one individual or two individuals. Her testimony

16 consists of those areas where all available facts converge. That is

17 one of the reasons why she will not be testifying about a single

18 specific incident, because she has not investigated that single

19 specific incident, but she has become an expert on the conflict in

20 Prijedor.

21 So, let us take, for example, the existence of Omarska camp:

22 That she will testify about its existence based on a wide range of

23 factors, including information provided by witnesses naturally, but

24 as to a single incident which is related by a single witness, for

25 example, she will not be a conduit for that testimony.

Page 910

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I gather that what she will do is form an opinion

2 based upon interviews of, you now say, 400 or so perhaps witnesses

3 and say, based upon those interviews, she has an opinion as to what?

4 MR. TIEGER: If I can step back a moment, your Honour, I would like to

5 clarify that. There has been, I think, an undue focus on the

6 interviews. I think that was an important aspect of what she did and

7 an appropriate aspect of what she did, but it was an adjunct to

8 everything else that was done as well. This is not a summary of what

9 witnesses told her. It is her conclusions based on the intersection

10 of all information available and, therefore, what can be known.

11 I think it is fair to say that what she heard from any

12 individual witness does not put her in a position to say: "On the

13 basis of that single witness, or single victim, I am prepared to say

14 that is precisely what happened". She conducted research and has

15 become an expert on the subject in just the way, for example, Dr. Gow

16 did, by examining all available information. The fact that

17 interviews were conducted at her behest, should not count against

18 her, but I think for her.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What is the conclusion that she is offering? I am

20 sure that has been provided to the Defence in the statement. What is

21 the conclusion she is offering?

22 MR. TIEGER: The witness will explain the relationship between the events

23 in Prijedor and the events that Dr. Gow talked about; the connection

24 between Prijedor and what happened outside of Prijedor.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So she again is a design or policy or scheme, I

Page 911

1 guess, witness to connect the testimony that we have heard already

2 moving it finally to Prijedor.

3 MR. TIEGER: It will be in Prijedor, your Honour, and she will be

4 testifying -- certainly her testimony will be relevant to

5 international conflict. It will also, of course, be relevant to how

6 widespread or systematic the attack was in Prijedor; it will be

7 relevant to the organisations, JNA, SDS, which participated in that

8 attack and their relations to entities outside.

9 JUDGE VOHRAH: Mr. Kay, you made no objection to Mr. Gow giving his expert

10 opinion when he was called. In what way is the nature of the

11 forthcoming witness' evidence to be different from Dr. Gow's?

12 MR. KAY: It is very different and Mr. Gow was called as a witness to give

13 an historical perspective as a military historian and events related

14 to the constitution. There is no objection to those aspects of this

15 witness' testimony which would cover similar ground because it is a

16 matter of public record, a matter of public knowledge. But we have

17 been supplied with a proffer of testimony -- again I am feeling my

18 way here because we are dealing with a Tribunal of fact as well as a

19 Tribunal of law -- where the witness refers to events that took place

20 in Kozarac which has come about as a result of her interviewing or

21 having interviewed on her behalf witnesses.

22 She describes, for instance, Omarska as being a virtual death

23 camp. She describes the conditions of the prisoners. She describes

24 physical abuse was routine. She was not there and witnesses are

25 being called to deal with that. She describes the circumstances in

Page 912

1 which they are being held within these camps; how they were run with

2 inspectors; the circumstances in which areas were allegedly cleansed

3 of other populations in that area. Our submission is that these are

4 all matters of fact for this Tribunal to listen to the witnesses and

5 decide whether they agree or disagree.

6 The danger in calling someone else into this courtroom to report

7 what she has been told by others is that, I am not saying that the

8 ultimate issue argument is something that I am putting before the

9 court, but that conclusions are being put before the court that are

10 really the role of the Tribunal rather than a witness to come in;

11 where does it stop? Do

12 produce a couple of investigators from Prijedor to come in and say,

13 "Well, we have spoken to everyone in the region; we believe Dusko

14 Tadic is not guilty. We have spoken to everyone, we have considered

15 what happened and his defence is this and sound." It is where you

16 are straying so far into issues of fact that the court does not

17 require those expressions of opinion, but what the court requires is

18 expertise on matters that the court, perhaps, does not have the

19 facility to understand, which is why we refer to scientific and

20 technological data.

21 But here this whole section of this report, the second half,

22 goes beyond the Gow area, which I know my learned friends objected to

23 at the time -- I, unfortunately, was incapacitated with flu and not

24 here -- I know they objected to it in relation to his evidence, but

25 she strays from that into conclusions based upon evidence supplied to

Page 913

1 her.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: They objected as to foundation and we then required,

3 of course, Dr. Gow, before he gave an opinion, to express or to

4 delineate the basis of his opinion. Of course, now we also have in

5 evidence the last day of Dr. Gow's testimony. The Prosecutor offered

6 sections of the Commission of Experts Report, two different reports,

7 as to the presence of paramilitary. That came in and that, of

8 course, is based upon -- as a matter of fact, the footnotes were

9 missing; I would like to see the footnotes because that is the basis

10 for the report, but most of the Dr. Gow's testimony, the last day,

11 was based upon, at least, sources of all kind, including the two

12 reports from the Commission.

13 MR. KAY: One from the Secretary General, I was here on that occasion, and

14 those matters were produced in cross-examination, because what was

15 being challenged was some of his conclusions that he was presenting

16 to the court based upon his research. So he was being cross-examined

17 upon the Secretary General's report.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, I was not referring to the Secretary General's

19 report; I was referring to the two reports from the Commission of

20 Experts.

21 MR. KAY: But we are going beyond this, beyond looking at newspapers and

22 reviewing and surveying what was happening in the Belgrade press,

23 what was happening in the other press, what was coming out of radio

24 stations, TV stations, where an historian is perfectly properly able

25 to give a commentary as to what he was hearing. We are getting here

Page 914

1 right into the evidence, from evidence relating to an attack at

2 Hambarine at a checkpoint with comment about it, to evidence relating

3 to a small band of poorly armed Muslims and Croats entered Prijedor

4 town in an attempt to recapture Prijedor. This is comment. This is

5 not Dr. Gow's research. This is comment upon evidence that the court

6 will hear and will have to make its own findings upon.

7 That is why I say, well, where do we limit this? Do we apply

8 the same standards and call investigators (because that is really

9 what this witness is, she is an investigator) to counter this in

10 relation to objectives in the case that we see important.

11 I hope that assists the court.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you have anything else, Mr. Tieger? Two minutes.

13 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour, and I will be quick. It is very

14 convenient for the Defence to characterise her as an investigator;

15 that is not what she is. I point to the Defence comment, should we

16 produce a couple of investigators to say that the accused is not

17 guilty? That exactly highlights the fallacy of their argument in two

18 respects; if they can produce someone who is tasked by the world

19 community to become an expert on this subject and who reviewed every

20 bit of available data to do so, which is basically what an historical

21 expert does, then they have a different argument. Furthermore, she

22 is not offering an opinion one way or another about this accused's

23 specific involvement, or offering an opinion about his guilt or

24 innocence.

25 Again the Defence tries to suggest that the court needs no

Page 915

1 assistance with what happened in this opstina because you will hear

2 all about it from witnesses. The fact of the matter, as I tried to

3 emphasise, this is an extensive systematic and widespread activity

4 over a large area. Each witness can only see a slice of that. We

5 did not select witnesses for that particular purpose, but witnesses

6 who had evidence about the accused's involvement directly and about

7 the accused specifically, that is not what this witness will testify

8 to.

9 The irony that appears here is that the Defence says, we have no

10 objection about hearing everything she learned from other sources,

11 and she certainly a sufficient expert to testify before the court

12 relying on those matters, but we do not want to hear if she learned

13 anything from independent investigations which included information

14 obtained from people all over the world which, I submit, is exactly

15 the kind of information that historians typically rely on.

16 If it turns out that a particular opinion of hers is based

17 exclusively on that kind of data, this court is certainly in a

18 position to give it whatever amount of weight it feels is

19 appropriate. This court should not turn its back on the opportunity

20 to hear from the very person who was asked by the community of

21 nations to find out what happened there.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess until 2.30. When we return,

23 Mr. Wladimiroff will be here, will he not, Mr. Orie?

24 MR. ORIE: That is what I expect, your Honour.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will meet in camera for a few minutes to discuss

Page 916

1 the trial schedule. Then we will resume in open court to discuss the

2 offer of proof as well as the objection. We stand in recess then

3 until 2.00.

4 (1.15 p.m.)

5 (Luncheon Adjournment)



8 (2.30 p.m.)

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4 (redacted)


6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Now we are in open session. Before the lunch

7 recess, we heard an objection to the testimony of Miss Hanne Sophie

8 Greve -- is it?

9 MR. TIEGER: "Greve", your Honour.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Greve. The Prosecutor made a proffer of the

11 testimony that would be offered and the Defence objected and

12 submitted a two or three-page brief for us to read as well as

13 attachments from rules of evidence of national systems.

14 As I said, as we said in our opening remarks, this is not a

15 national system. We are

16 guided by our Rules of Procedure and Evidence that the Tribunal

17 has developed. When we have in Rule 89(A), when it provides that the

18 Chamber shall not be bound by national rules of evidence, that is

19 intentional, that was deliberate, on the part of drafters of the

20 rules. So we consider that we look to our rules of evidence to

21 determine whether or not evidence is admissible.

22 Rules 89 of our rules of evidence, of course, is the guiding

23 rule. 89(C) provides that a Chamber may admit any relevant evidence

24 which it deems to have probative value. We consider that, based on

25 the proffer of the Prosecutor and considering the objections of the

Page 923

1 Defence, the testimony of Miss Greve certainly is relevant and it

2 appears that it has probative value.

3 Under Rule 89(D), the Chamber may exclude evidence if its

4 probative value

5 substantially outweighed by the need to ensure a fair trial. So

6 that our determination at this time that the testimony is relevant,

7 and that it appears to have probative value, does not in any way bind

8 the Trial Chamber from excluding the testimony, should we make such

9 a determination after hearing the testimony and hearing the context

10 in which it is given.

11 We are very cognizant of the fact that we are judges,

12 experienced judges. We are not a jury. We believe we can listen to

13 this testimony that we consider to be relevant and appears to have

14 probative value, and give it the appropriate weight that is

15 necessary. So would you call your witness, please, Mr. Tieger?

16 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour. The Prosecution calls Hanne Sophie Greve.


18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: There should be an oath there, Miss Greve, if you

19 would take the oath, please?

20 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare I will speak the truth, the whole truth

21 and nothing but the truth.

22 (The witness was sworn)

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, you may be seated, Mr. Tieger.

24 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.

25 Examined by MR. TIEGER

Page 924

1 Q. Would you state your full name?

2 A. Hanne Sophie Greve.

3 Q. You are currently sitting as a judge in the Court of Appeals for

4 Western Norway; is that correct?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. And have been since 1988?

7 A. That is correct.

8 Q. You also serve and have served as a trial judge?

9 A. I have.

10 Q. Have you taught law as well?

11 A. I have.

12 Q. Have you served in the Faculty of Law at the University of Bergen?

13 A. I have.

14 Q. In addition to your basic degree in law, have you attained an

15 advanced degree?

16 A. I have.

17 Q. May I ask what your doctoral thesis was?

18 A. It has a double title; it is called "Kampucean Refugees: Between the

19 Tiger and the Crocodile", that is an Eastern proverb, International

20 Law and the overall scope of one refugee's situation.

21 Q. If you do not mind, I will address you by your academic title during

22 the course of these proceedings rather than your judicial title?

23 A. Please.

24 Q. In addition to your career in law in Norway, have you been

25 extensively involved in efforts surrounding international

Page 925

1 humanitarian rights violations?

2 A. Yes, I have.

3 Q. I would like you to tell the court briefly about those activities

4 and, perhaps, I can lead you through them so we can move forward

5 quickly. Were you an assistant protection officer for the UNHCR in

6 Thailand for two years?

7 A. Yes, I was.

8 Q. That was in 1979 and in 1981?

9 A. That is correct.

10 Q. Your work focused primarily on Cambodian refugees; is that right?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. After completing that duty, did you receive a grant to conduct

13 research into the circumstances of such refugees and continue your

14 work?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Did you conduct a fact finding mission to Ethiopia for Save the

17 Children in 1985?

18 A. I did.

19 Q. Did that concern problems relating to children left on their own in

20 the emergency of famine and war in Ethiopia?

21 A. That is correct.

22 Q. Did you conduct a fact finding mission to Angola for the Lutheran

23 World Federation?

24 A. I did.

25 Q. In so doing, were you looking into allegations of serious human

Page 926

1 rights violations by SWAPO against its own people?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Did you conduct a fact finding mission to Cambodia and Thailand on

4 behalf of the Norwegian Ministry of Foreign Affairs?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Was that for the possibility of determining whether humanitarian aid

7 -- the possibility of repatriation existed?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you organise the election monitoring system for Romania?

10 A. Yes, I was one of the key persons in that.

11 Q. Did you then serve as on scene election observer in Romania in 1990?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Was that done with the co-operation of the Helsinki Federation?

14 A. Yes, it was.

15 Q. Was it done upon a formal invitation from Romania?

16 A. It was.

17 Q. Was that same system, that is, the one which you helped to organise

18 and implement in Romania later adopted for Lithuania and Latvia?

19 A. Yes, it was.

20 Q. Did you serve as on scene election observer in those countries as

21 well?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. Did you write the first prison profile covering prisons, which

24 included political refugees in connection with Thailand?

25 A. In connection with Cambodia and the People's Republic of Cambodia.

Page 927

1 Q. Was that sent to the High Commissioner of Refugees?

2 A. Yes, as well as Amnesty International.

3 Q. Have you taught land law in Cambodia?

4 A. Yes, I have.

5 Q. Have you served as a human rights researcher for the Christie

6 Mickelson Institute in Norway?

7 A. Yes, I have.

8 Q. Dr. Greve, in 1992, did the Security Council of the United Nations

9 express its grave alarm at continuing reports of widespread

10 violations of international humanitarian law occurring in the

11 territory of former Yugoslavia and especially in Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina?

13 A. Yes, it did.

14 Q. As a result, was a resolution adopted?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did that call upon international humanitarian organisations to

17 collate substantiated information in their possession and make it

18 available to a Commission of Experts?

19 A. Yes, it did.

20 Q. In the same resolution did the United Nations establish an impartial

21 Commission of

22 Experts to examine and analyse that information?

23 A. Yes, it did.

24 Q. As well as any further information which the Commission might obtain

25 through its own efforts?

Page 928

1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. Was that done pursuant to Chapter 7 of the Charter of the United

3 Nations which provides for the Security Council to take special

4 measures when there is a threat to peace, a breach of the peace or

5 international aggression?

6 A. Yes, that is correct.

7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, may I have a document presented to the witness?

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. Do you have a new list of exhibits?

9 MR. TIEGER: Yes, we do. Perhaps I could present that to the court as

10 well?

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: May we have it? It would be easier for us to

12 follow. (Document handed). Does the Defence have a new list of

13 exhibits?

14 MR. KAY: Your Honour, we have given a list of exhibits this morning. I

15 did not recognise the document that was being handed to the witness.

16 Perhaps if they can be identified so that we can try to track them

17 as we are going through.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you have a new list of exhibits?

19 MR. KAY: Your Honour, we have been given a list of exhibits this morning.

20 I did not recognise the document as being handed to the witness.

21 Perhaps if they can be identified, so that we can try to track them

22 as we are going through.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you have a list of exhibits starting at 74 ---

24 MR. KAY: Yes.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- through 126? That is what I was referring to.

Page 929

1 MR. KAY: Yes, we do.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Does the witness have a document in

3 front of her that has not been marked?

4 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour, I apologise for that.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We have decided that what we are going to do now is

6 before you present it to the witness, have it delivered to the

7 Registrar; ask the Registrar to mark it for identification purposes

8 -- this might sound familiar to you -- and then once it is marked for

9 identification purposes, then the usher will hand it to the witness

10 and the witness then can refer to it by exhibit number. It helps,

11 that is for sure.

12 MR. TIEGER: Dr. Greve, do you recognise that document?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. What is it?

15 A. It is resolution 780, 1992 of the Security Council.

16 Q. Is that the resolution which established the Commission of Experts?

17 A. That is correct.

18 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender this exhibit.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is Exhibit 74, it should be?

20 MR. TIEGER: Yes.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to Exhibit 74?

22 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 74 will be admitted.

24 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Dr. Greve, in October 1993, were you

25 selected to serve as a Commissioner on the United Nations Commission

Page 930

1 of Experts?

2 A. Yes, I was.

3 Q. Did you begin your work on the Commission with any predetermined view

4 of what had happened during the conflict in former Yugoslavia?

5 A. No, I did not.

6 Q. As a result of Resolution 780, which has just been admitted into

7 evidence, was information from international humanitarian

8 organisations made available to the Commission?

9 A. Yes, it was.

10 Q. That was information concerning the conflict as a whole?

11 A. The conflict as such and the specific allegation.

12 Q. I would like to ask you about some of the materials which prompted

13 the Resolution and which were made available at the outset of the

14 Commission's work. Could I ask that the next document be marked for

15 identification as Exhibit 75? (Document handed). Dr. Greve, do you

16 recognise that document?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. What is it?

19 A. This is a statement made by the President of the International

20 Committee of the Red Cross at the opening of the international

21 meeting on humanitarian aid for victims of the conflict in the former

22 Yugoslavia which was held under the auspices of the United Nations

23 High Commission for Refugees at the end of July 1992.

24 Q. Was that among the materials to which Resolution 780 refers and which

25 was made available to the Commission at the outset of its work?

Page 931

1 A. Yes, I believe it was made available immediately, but I was not a

2 Commissioner from the Commission start, so I am unable to say exactly

3 when it was made available.

4 Q. Was it made available to you at the outset of your work?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. TIEGER: I tender that as the exhibit next in order Exhibit 75.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to 75?

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The Prosecution's Exhibit 75 is admitted.

10 MR. TIEGER: Can that document be placed on the monitor, your Honour?


12 MR. TIEGER: Dr. Greve, can I ask you to turn to page 1, the fourth

13 paragraph? In that document did the President of the ICRC report to

14 the Commission that, "... whole populations are being terrorised,

15 minorities intimidated and harassed, civilians interned on a massive

16 scale, hostages taken and that torture, deportation and summary

17 executions were rife in the former Yugoslavia"? I would ask you to

18 look at paragraph 4 of the document.

19 A. Yes, I do. I am sorry if I missed the question.

20 Q. Is that the report in part by the President of the ICRC that was

21 presented to the Commission?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. Did the President of the ICRC further indicate that all of that was

24 done in the name of ethnic cleansing?

25 A. That was indicated as being a key element, yes.

Page 932

1 Q. In that statement a report was made in July 1992?

2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. May this exhibit be marked next in order, please?

4 (To the witness): Dr. Greve, do you recognise that document?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. What is it?

7 A. It is an appeal made by the International Committee of the Red Cross

8 to all parties in the conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

9 Q. What is the date of that document?

10 A. It is dated 13th August 1992.

11 Q. Was that among the details made available to the Commission?

12 A. Yes, it was.

13 MR. TIEGER: I tender that exhibit into evidence, your Honour.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection?

15 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 76 will be admitted.

17 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): In its press release of that date, does the

18 ICRC report that it had visited places of detention in Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina and that it was evident that innocent civilians were

20 being arrested and subjected to inhumane treatment?

21 A. Yes, it did.

22 Q. Did it further state that the detention of such persons was part of a

23 policy of forced population transfers carried out on a massive scale,

24 and marked by the systematic use of brutality, including such methods

25 as harassment, murder, confiscation of property, deportation and the

Page 933

1 taking of hostages, all in violation of international law?

2 A. That is correct.

3 MR. TIEGER: May this document be marked for identification next, your

4 Honour? (To the witness): Dr. Greve, do you recognise this

5 document?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. What is it, please?

8 A. This is a declaration on Bosnia-Herzegovina issued by the CSO,

9 meaning the Committee of Senior Officials, and it is to be found

10 within the body CSCE, meaning the then conference, now Organisation,

11 on Security and Co-operation in Europe.

12 Q. Was it among the reports that prompted the Resolution of 780 and that

13 was made available to the Commission?

14 A. It was made available to the Commission, yes. I do not know exactly

15 which document the Security Council had at hand when they decided.

16 Q. What is the date of this declaration?

17 A. It is 12th May 1992.

18 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender this document.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

20 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 77 will be admitted.

22 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Dr. Greve, in this declaration of May 12th

23 1992, does the CSO condemn a pattern of clear gross and uncorrected

24 violations of CSCE commitments by the authorities in Belgrade and the

25 JNA, and declare that they bear the prime responsibility for the

Page 934

1 escalation of bloodshed and destruction in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. Does the declaration of May 12th 1992 further state in paragraph 5,

4 and emphasise, that

5 the JNA must end its aggression, and does it further insist that

6 the JNA in Bosnia-Herzegovina must either be withdrawn, disarmed or

7 subject to the authority of

8 the government in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

9 A. That is also correct.

10 Q. Dr. Greve, in addition to information collated and received pursuant

11 to resolution 780, did the Commission, in fact, actively seek

12 information from other sources?

13 A. Yes, the Commission sought information from any possible source we

14 could think of.

15 Q. In addition to evaluating and analysing the materials, the

16 substantiated information, submitted by humanitarian organisations,

17 and actively seeking out information that led to the conflict as a

18 whole, did any member of the Commission focus on any particular area

19 of the conflict?

20 A. Yes, some of us did -- I did.

21 Q. What area of the conflict did you focus on?

22 A. I had asked to focus on a relatively small area for the reason that I

23 joined the Commission relatively late. I had not asked to focus on

24 any specific area, but it ended up being

25 opstina Prijedor in north western Bosnia.

Page 935

1 Q. Why did you seek to focus on a particular area of the conflict?

2 A. I was asked by the Commission to look at detention facilities,

3 torture and sexual abuse. It was not clear when I joined the

4 Commission if it would have to finish its work within

5 two and a half months, six and a half months, or nine and a half

6 months and I thought, in

7 order to be able to do anything of value, I should try to limit

8 my focus.

9 Q. Why was Prijedor, in fact, selected as your particular area of focus?

10 A. Actually, I had suggested myself that possibly I could focus on

11 Stupni Do. However, it so happened that the Commission was

12 approached by Swedish authorities who communicated they had made

13 numerous interviews with survivors living in Sweden, and since my

14 mother tongue, Norwegian, is close to the Swedish, and the statements

15 were in Swedish, I was asked by the Commission to look at those

16 specific statements.

17 Q. Did the availability of these statements present particular

18 opportunity for study of a certain region?

19 A. Yes, the majority of those who had given statements in Sweden came

20 from opstina Prijedor which at that time was unknown to me. I may,

21 perhaps, add that I worked for the United Nations transitional

22 authorities in Cambodia in the second half of 1992 and beginning of

23 1993, meaning I was out of Europe when some of the main events

24 happened in the former Yugoslavia.

25 Q. Would the study of a particular region permit you to examine the

Page 936

1 context of alleged war crimes as opposed to a more broad-based

2 evaluation?

3 A. Yes, it did and I thought that would be crucial to meet with my

4 mandate.

5 Q. Were there certain advantages presented for your study of the

6 conflict in Prijedor by the fact that witnesses and refugees were

7 scattered around Europe and the world?

8 A. I considered that to be extremely important mainly for security

9 reasons and to help me seek for the truth. I thought it would be

10 better to have people interviewed simultaneously in different corners

11 of the world, rather than to go for a few or even some hundred in one

12 refugee centre. I thought it impossible for them to make up stories

13 if they were interviewed very separate.

14 Q. What methodology was implemented?

15 A. The methodology -- it may not sound very professional, I do not think

16 anyone had done this kind of a study before -- I decided I wanted to

17 have interviewed survivors from the area in different countries, and

18 I enlisted in doing that professionals, meaning judges, lawyers,

19 policemen and immigration officers in different countries. It

20 happened in Sweden, it happened in Norway, it happened in Malaysia,

21 it happened in the Netherlands, it happened in Germany and it

22 happened in Croatia at the time the Commission had access to

23 Croatia.

24 So close to 400 people were interviewed in these areas. It was,

25 as mentioned, carried out by people who were selected by the local

Page 937

1 authorities. We had no resources to pay anyone to do this, so we had

2 to go hat in hand and ask each government to find the people to

3 assist us, which they did. I myself focused on co-ordinating this and

4 searching for other sources of information, meaning that I

5 immediately tried to approach embassies or their intelligence

6 sources, their general sources, their information relating to

7 refugees or evacuees, deportees, perhaps it is better to call them.

8 I started looking for media report and I was very keen on finding

9 local sources.

10 We did approach also the embassies or the representations of the

11 countries involved in the area. We approached, or I arranged it so

12 that we approached, every international agency that had been

13 involved, and other entities of the UN that had been involved --

14 UNPROFOR is one example. I had had the honour to work with Yasushi

15 Akashi when I was in Cambodia for the United Nations, and many of my

16 old friends were with UNPROFOR.

17 So I had an easy inroad to that. UNHCR were my old colleagues.

18 We approached ICRC and we approached every non-governmental agency

19 that had been working in the area or close to the area as,

20 essentially, there had in the crucial period of time been no-one

21 inside, save for a few local entities such as Merhamet, the Muslim

22 relief agency and Caritas, the Catholic relief agency.

23 I also approached all observers that could be identified to have

24 worked in the area, also from the European Community, and every

25 reporter from the newspaper or television broadcast who had been to

Page 938

1 the area.

2 Q. Did you also seek out and obtain information from the media in or

3 around the area of Prijedor?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. And also media from sources from the former Yugoslavia generally?

6 A. Yes, I did and I may, perhaps, since I forgot it, also mention that

7 in a different format and slightly different in nature, we received

8 also witness information from countries such as the United States of

9 America, the United Kingdom, France, Denmark, Switzerland and basic

10 information from a number of countries in addition to that.

11 Q. Did you yourself go to Prijedor to interview witnesses remaining

12 there?

13 A. No, I did not for very specific reasons. One was at the time the

14 Serbian authorities did not want us to go. I was offered to go, just

15 associate with others and go unofficially. I did not consider that

16 wise as I thought it would be dangerous to people if I spoke to them.

17 I could leave; they could not.

18 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, may I have this map marked next in order for

19 identification? I understand it is available on the screen as

20 reference No. 237.

21 JUDGE STEPHEN: What does that statement mean?

22 MR. TIEGER: I am sure of Judge McDonald's view -- it comes from somewhere

23 and it is now on the screen.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: This is exhibit 78, is it not?

25 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour.

Page 939


2 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Dr. Greve, do you recognise this as a map of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

4 A. Yes, the lower part of the country is left out but, yes, this is,

5 essentially, the whole country.

6 MR. TIEGER: I tender that for admission, your Honour.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to 78?

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 78 will be admitted.

10 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Dr. Greve, let us begin by asking you

11 exactly where Prijedor is.

12 A. I am not fully familiar with this. I am trying to point it out.

13 Does that help or maybe it does not? Yes, it does with this one,

14 perhaps. Does this reflect on the screen?

15 Q. Yes, the arrow shows?

16 A. Where I put a little arrow is where Prijedor is located, that is,

17 this is the city or the town of Prijedor, and the opstina is quite

18 rectangular in shape, but it is also called Prijedor. It is a larger

19 area. As you can see, your Honours, it is located in the north

20 western corner of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21 Q. Thank you. I would ask that Exhibit 57 be shown to the witness.

22 (Document handed). Dr. Greve, this is an exhibit which was shown

23 earlier in the trial. Before I ask you to discuss the conflict in

24 Prijedor in detail, I would like to ask you for a very brief outline

25 of what happened, what took place, in Prijedor. First of all, this

Page 940

1 exhibit indicates Prijedor, April 30th. What happened in Prijedor,

2 April 30th 1992?

3 MR. KAY: May I just raise one matter here? I do it because it is

4 important at this stage. Should we not be made aware of the

5 witness's sources as we go through her evidence ---


7 MR. KAY: -- as to how is she able to tell us what happened in Prijedor

8 where this information comes from.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, we had agreed, I think. Were you here when Dr.

10 Gow -- when that issue came up?

11 MR. KAY: I am aware of it being mentioned and I think it is important at

12 this stage.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Why not speak to it and then let me suggest a way to

14 approach it. Go ahead, Mr. Tieger.

15 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I thought the ----

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You can just ask the witness if she knows what

17 happened on April 30th. Then I imagine she will say "yes" and then

18 ask her what is the basis for that knowledge, so that she would then

19 begin to talk, first, about the basis of the knowledge before she

20 gives the opinion. Is there a problem with doing it that way?

21 MR. TIEGER: No, not at all, but I would be of the view that that is,

22 essentially, what we just did, was to outline the basis of her

23 knowledge for the events which happened in Prijedor. If the court

24 wishes specific examples as we go through the evidence, certainly we

25 can provide that.

Page 941

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are you saying then that the response to this

2 question is going to be based upon the methodology that she

3 described?

4 MR. TIEGER: I think it would be difficult for any expert witness to

5 identify each and every source which converges on particular pieces

6 of information. Certainly, as can you see from the exhibit list, we

7 have quite a number of exhibits identified; specific sources will,

8 therefore, be identified during the course of the presentation. I

9 certainly have no objection to asking the witness at every juncture

10 for the basis of her information but, as I indicated earlier, her

11 testimony today is about those areas where all available information

12 converges to permit her to offer an opinion.


14 MR. KAY: I do not think I am being unduly technical about this and I

15 appreciate the court's ruling earlier this afternoon, but there are

16 still, even within the Tribunal, bounds of admissibility as to what

17 may be acceptable evidence, what may not. We should be told the

18 sources in relation to this testimony as it goes through, so that we

19 know what credit should be given to it, what weight should be given

20 to it.

21 If the court is of the view that this evidence is able to be

22 heard, then the court will have to do a weighing up process in its

23 function as the Tribunal of fact and law to know what value to put

24 upon it.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I agree. I do not think it is necessary for the

Page 942

1 witness though to repeat every time. I gather her answer would be:

2 "Do you know what happened in Prijedor?" "Yes, I do". "What is the

3 basis of your information?" Then would she would say and she would

4 begin with methodology, I gather, that describes starting at 12

5 minutes after 3.00, that is, interviewing 400 people and then all of

6 the other reports, talking with reporters, media people, NGOs,

7 UNPROFOR, ICRC and, I gather, that this is what Mr. Tieger is saying

8 he does want her to repeat it every time; if she could do a shorthand

9 version saying, "I followed the same methodology".

10 MR. KAY: One of the dangers in wrapping it up is we are not quite sure

11 where the information has come from. If the court is to decide what

12 weight to attribute to this particular evidence, the court may not

13 know where the source is from; whether it is a from a broadcast or

14 from reports of others.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think it is sufficient if you just ask the witness

16 whether or not or her opinion is based on the methodology that she

17 has described. That is sufficient. OK.

18 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Dr. Greve, you indicated that you did know

19 what happened in Prijedor on April 30th?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. What is that based on?

22 A. My best source of information as to what happened in Prijedor on 30th

23 April 1992 is an interview given in the local newspaper, Kozarski

24 Vjesnik, about one year later when the head of the then Serbian

25 police was promoted to become Deputy Minister of Interior in the

Page 943

1 Republika Srpska; his giving a detailed information of that which is

2 corroborating the information I had bits and pieces of previously,

3 and there were also a number of other local Serb officials who have

4 given newspaper interviews on this issue.

5 Q. What is it that did happen in Prijedor on April 30th 1992?

6 A. The Serbs were taking power by the use of armed force both as the

7 head of police reports without one bullet fired. They had taken up

8 positions, armed positions, with checkpoints all over the town of

9 Prijedor. They had placed soldiers, armed people, outside all the

10 main buildings, snipers on some roofs and they entered the main

11 buildings to declare that they had taken power in the early morning

12 from approximately 4 o'clock until 6 o' clock in the morning of 30th

13 April 1992.

14 Q. Was this takeover by force of arms an act by local Serbs isolated

15 from Serbs outside of opstina Prijedor?

16 A. No. It was made in tandem with other Serb entities and that is also

17 addressed by the chief of police himself. He said we worked

18 hand-in-hand. I assume this will be an exhibit later, but in this

19 specific article in a newspaper he is addressing the fact that he

20 worked hand-in-hand, as head of police, with the military and the

21 politicians, and that he was taking instructions from the police

22 headquarters in Banja Luka and also from the Ministry of Interior

23 under which the police sought.

24 Q. What happened in Prijedor after the military takeover?

25 A. After the military took over, they declared that this had become

Page 944

1 Srpska opstina Prijedor, meaning the Serbian opstina Prijedor. They

2 did not meet resistance at this point, meaning that most of the

3 population was eager to see if this would continue to be a bloodless

4 takeover. Immediately, however, non-Serbs started to feel that they

5 were being isolated, they lost their jobs, they, essentially, had to

6 stay at home, soon came under curfew, needed passes to travel.

7 Q. Eventually, what happened in opstina Prijedor to the Muslims and

8 Croats of that community?

9 A. They were basically ousted from the community by violence and armed

10 force, that is, there was a census -- that is my source for numbers

11 -- of 1991, according to which there were approximately 49,000

12 Muslims in the opstina; the number were reduced to approximately

13 6,000 within a year's time. There were approximately, again

14 according to the census -- and I may say my source of reference when

15 it comes to the reduced numbers is newspaper article again in

16 Kozarski Vjesnik; it is published in the summer of 1993 and it is

17 addressing how many are we now, it is not saying anything about how

18 the reduction happened -- but then the Croat population was reduced

19 from a little more than 6,000 to a little more than 3,000.

20 Q. Were the Muslims and Croats about whom you have just spoken removed

21 from opstina Prijedor by force of arms, by the establishment of camps

22 and by forced deportation?

23 A. That is correct.

24 MR. KAY: I think that is a matter for the witness to say. We are in an

25 unusual position here. My learned friend is there putting words into

Page 945

1 the witness's mouth when she is the expert witness before the court .

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It is clearly leading, but the problem is how

3 technical are we going to be; this is a bench trial. All three of

4 we judges have tried bench trials for many, many years. In a bench

5 trial, we tend to be more relaxed and, therefore, we allow witnesses

6 sometimes to be led. There is a saying, at least in the American

7 way, you can lead them but please do not drag them, meaning at some

8 point you have to stop. It is a leading question. I think you can

9 just ask the witness what happened, but keep in mind we are not going

10 to tie the witnesses nor counsel to very strict rules because, if we

11 do, it will have to be applied to both sides.

12 MR. KAY: I understand that, your Honour, which is why over the last two

13 weeks we have been extremely quiet here about the leading questions

14 over the last few weeks because

15 we were aware of the issue.


17 MR. KAY: But this was beyond.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: This is leading and an objection has been made. I

19 will sustain the objection.

20 MR. TIEGER: Very well, your Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Ask the witness how they were removed.

22 MR. TIEGER: Thank you. (To the witness): In what way, how were the

23 Muslims and Croats you spoke of earlier removed from opstina

24 Prijedor?

25 A. For (1) they were not allowed to leave on their own initiative. The

Page 946

1 area was almost sealed off from the outside world. Then their main

2 settlements were surrounded, bombarded and invaded, after which the

3 women, the children up to 12 or 15, and the elderly men, maybe 60, 65

4 -- there are various reports on that -- would be separated to be put

5 into one detention camp essentially made for the purpose of

6 deportation. This group was, essentially, deported, and a group of

7 males between 12 or 15 and 60, 65, was put into two detention camps

8 known as Keraterm and Omarska.

9 Keraterm is located in Prijedor, so sometimes it is referred to

10 just as "Prijedor", as a camp, but its name is Keraterm; and we do

11 not know exact numbers but, unfortunately, there are many who never

12 left Prijedor alive. Many were killed in the military attacks and

13 in camps.

14 Q. Dr. Greve, I would like to focus on opstina Prijedor and ask you for

15 some details about the opstina. Let me begin by asking you exactly

16 what an opstina is.

17 A. That is, perhaps, one of the more difficult questions because I do

18 not think we have an accurate translation; "municipality" or

19 "district", it is an administrative unit in the former Yugoslavia.

20 So possibly calling it a "municipality" or a "district" will be

21 correct.

22 Q. Is that municipality broken down into any smaller administrative

23 units?

24 A. Yes, it is. The next administrative unit is called Mjesna Zajednica.

25 It is a combination of villages, hamlets and in the city, the city

Page 947

1 as such is slightly subdivided in Mjesna Zajednica.

2 Q. What is the approximate size, geographic size, of opstina Prijedor?

3 A. If my memory serves my right, it is 834 square kilometres, according

4 to the statistics.

5 Q. From one end to the other, approximately how long?

6 A. Possibly 33 kilometres by 25 and a half kilometres, but this,

7 obviously, is approximate and the shape is not exactly rectangular

8 but it is almost like that.

9 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if could I have these documents marked next in

10 order for identification? (Documents handed).

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What number is that, Mr. Tieger?

12 MR. TIEGER: That would be No. 79, I believe it is No. 79.

13 (To the witness): Dr. Greve, do you recognise those documents?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Are those two separate documents?

16 A. There are actually three different documents. There is one or, that

17 is to say, there is one Serbo-Croatian version of the document and

18 then there is an English language version of the same document, and

19 this has been published by the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina but,

20 unfortunately, it is not so easy to read the figures. So for, as a

21 matter of convenience, I have also asked to have handed a copy of the

22 same population count and census published in Croatia because it is

23 readable. I have been unable to trace a better copy from

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I tender that.

Page 948

1 MR. WLADIMIROFF: The Prosecution provided with the document number

2 because we do not know.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is it 79 or is it?

4 MR. WLADIMIROFF: That is the exhibit number probably, but what is the

5 original document number?

6 MR. TIEGER: 244, 2 and 44.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What is listed on the exhibit list, 79 is a coloured

8 map of Prijedor and surrounding area taken from a section of the map

9 series M709. Is that what has been marked as 79.

10 MR. TIEGER: No, the map has not been marked and 79 has not been assigned

11 to any particular exhibit yet.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have a feeling it is 80 just from what I have

13 listened to -- no, it is not 80 either.

14 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if it will be of more convenience to the court,

15 the map will certainly be marked later. I can have the witness

16 identify it now so we can keep the list in order.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is fine. Identified. Then 79, does the

18 Defence counsel have a copy of what has been marked for

19 identification purposes as 79?

20 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I think there is still a little confusion here. Perhaps

21 the Prosecution could give us the document number which you provided

22 to us, because we have three numbers now here, the original document

23 number which may be 2 and 44, but the document number you gave to us

24 had different numbers and these are the references I am working with.

25 MR. TIEGER: Correct. The document number on the list that you are

Page 949

1 working with should be numbers 2 ---


3 MR. TIEGER: -- and 44. To keep things in order, if we may have this

4 marked for identification and have the witness look at that.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Tell me what has just been marked as 79.

6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, what was marked for identification -- I am sorry

7 about the confusion -- were documents 80 and 81 which turned out to

8 be marked as one exhibit.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, that is what I thought because I did not think

10 that what the witness added -- she was saying there were three pieces

11 of paper and I could not see that was a colour map and that is what

12 you have listed as 79. OK.

13 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Judge Greve, looking quickly at the document

14 that has just been marked, do you recognise that?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. What is it, please?

17 A. This is the central areas of opstina Prijedor. It was difficult to

18 have the entire opstina into the map for the form I have wanted, but

19 it is the essential parts of opstina Prijedor.

20 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I tender that.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That has been marked as what number for

22 identification?

23 MR. TIEGER: I was hoping it had been -- 79.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 79, and it is listed on your exhibit list as a

25 coloured map of Prijedor.

Page 950

1 MR. TIEGER: That is correct.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Does Defence counsel have any objection?

3 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, I understand now we have changed this into 79 and

4 the other document will be 80, is that correct, because I was under

5 the impression that the document had been given 79, but that is

6 wrong?

7 MR. TIEGER: If I may clarify, if we may mark the census from the Republic

8 of Bosnia-Herzegovina states statistics office which has the English

9 translation as Exhibit 80, and the census that the witness indicated

10 was obtained from Croatia with the same information but in clearer

11 form as 81, then we will be back on the court's list.

12 MR. WLADIMIROFF: 79 being the map, no objection, and 80 being the census

13 1991, no objection either.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 79 will be admitted, the coloured map of Prijedor

15 and surrounding area, and 80 will be admitted also without objection,

16 Mr. Tieger.

17 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. Your Honours, it might make things

18 clearer if we go through the evidence to mark though two censuses as

19 80.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 80 and 81?

21 MR. TIEGER: Yes.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 81 on your exhibit list says pages 196 through 201

23 report from a report of 1991 census, is that what 81 is?

24 MR. TIEGER: That is correct.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to 81?

Page 951

1 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 81 will be admitted. 79, 80 and 81 are admitted.

3 The hard part is over. Now we can listen to the testimony.

4 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. Can this document be marked as No.

5 82? That comes up on the screen as 2/40. It is an ethnic

6 composition map of opstina Prijedor. (To the witness): Dr. Greve, do

7 you recognise this document?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. What is it?

10 A. This is a map which shows the majority ethnic group in the different

11 areas. Unfortunately, this is not in colours; it would be much more

12 readable if that was the case.

13 Q. It shows the ethnic composition of opstina Prijedor by the different

14 towns or villages?

15 A. That is correct.

16 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, as Judge Greve indicated, this is a copy of the

17 original which has been on its way for sometime. I would ask to

18 tender this with the understanding that the original colour document

19 will be provided to the court and a colour copy to the Defence as

20 soon as available which, I hope, will be later today.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection -- you have 82, I think, before you --

22 to 82 ---

23 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: -- subject to the original in colour being

25 presented?

Page 952

1 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No problem.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 82 will be admitted.

3 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Dr. Greve, can you tell us the approximate

4 national or ethnic distribution or composition of the Prijedor area?

5 A. Yes, Prijedor, according to the census of 1991, had a little more

6 than 112,000 inhabitants. The number of inhabitants was increased,

7 we do not know exactly by how many, but by summer in early 1992

8 because of ethnic cleansing practices in Bosanski Novi, which will be

9 to the west, almost only to the west, of opstina Prijedor. In

10 opstina Prijedor, the Muslims had the majority population. They

11 were 44 per cent of the entire population which means approximately

12 49,000 people; the Serbs were 42.5 per cent of the population; the

13 Croats were 5.6 per cent of the population, and there was a group

14 that deserves a little explanation called Yugoslavs which was 5.7 per

15 cent.

16 Yugoslavs were used as a designation. It was an option for

17 everyone to declare themselves as Yugoslavs, and it was chosen for

18 primarily two options. That is my understanding. If people were of

19 mixed descent, although that did not prevent them from also declaring

20 them belonging to one or the other group, and the other reason for

21 calling oneself a Yugoslav would be demonstrating political

22 confidence in the idea of Yugoslavia as one state.

23 There was finally a group of 2.2 per cent which were aliens.

24 They are, according to the public records, essentially, Ukrainians,

25 Russians and Italians. However, to my understanding, there has also

Page 953

1 been some, not so many, but Albanians, and some, not so many, Poles,

2 or there could have been others as well. I may mention that gypsies

3 do not figure on this account, but that is one of the groups that has

4 also been ousted from the region, but I have not seen -- or from

5 opstina Prijedor, but I have never see official numbers as to how

6 many they were.

7 Q. Could the witness be shown this map for identification next in order?

8 It will be No. 83, I believe. (Document handed). Dr. Greve, do you

9 recognise that map?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. What does it depict?

12 A. This particular map is to indicate the division between ethnic

13 groups. I hasten to add that such a division is not always easy to

14 make as many people find it difficult to identify only with one

15 group, as they are of mixed descent. In many areas up to one-fourth

16 of the marriages were between Christian and Muslims. But, however,

17 this is according to how people had declared themselves in the

18 census. So, by giving the different groups a colour code, meaning

19 that the Croats are marked with blue, the Muslims with green and the

20 Serbs in some kind of reddish shade -----

21 Q. Dr. Greve, before you go further, I would like to tender that exhibit

22 and put it on the monitor so the court can see it.

23 A. I am sorry.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there objection to 83?

25 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection, your Honour.

Page 954

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 83 will be admitted.

2 MR. TIEGER: Dr. Greve, can you point out on the map where opstina

3 Prijedor appears?

4 A. Yes, long distance reading is not my strong side, but I will try to

5 do it properly. This is Prijedor with the 44 per cent Muslims and

6 the 42.5 per cent Serbs.

7 Q. What is the ethnic or national distribution of the opstina

8 surrounding Prijedor?

9 A. Most of the opstinas surrounding Prijedor has more than half of the

10 population as being Serb. One will see immediately that there are

11 some exceptions such as Sanski Most, and I am trying to find Kotor

12 Varos which is also one such opstina which does not have Serb

13 majority population. I am leaving out at this time the Bihac area

14 which I was trying to point out in the corner -- I do not know if

15 you, it is not on my screen; oh, yes, here it is -- which is

16 predominantly a Muslim area.

17 Q. Thank you, doctor. I would like to ask you some questions about the

18 general geographic position of Prijedor. In that regard, I would

19 like the witness to be shown the next exhibit to be marked for

20 identification which should be Exhibit 84. While they are setting

21 that up, perhaps you could just take a look at the document?

22 A. Yes, I have been colouring it myself so I think I do know it.

23 Q. So you recognise that document, what does it depict?

24 A. This is a document which was issued by the British forces in UNPROFOR

25 as of 17th February 1993. It shows the current military situation at

Page 955

1 that time, but it is of no significance, neither the time, nor the

2 military situation. My main reason for asking this map to be used is

3 that it shows both Serbia proper with Vojvodina, it shows Montenegro

4 and it shows essential parts of Croatia, that is, the four UN

5 protected areas in Croatia and all of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

6 MR. TIEGER: We tender Exhibit 84, your Honour.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No objection?

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 84 will be admitted.

10 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Dr. Greve, now that the map is in front of

11 the court, can you point out the areas you refer to, both Prijedor

12 and Serbia and Serbia and Krajina?

13 A. I do not know if it will be of convenience if I stand up or if you

14 cannot hear me then, but I -----

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That be a problem when you stand up. See if you

16 can point from sitting down, if you can.

17 THE WITNESS: Let me say, for the record, there is no political colour to

18 the yellow; it was the highlighter at hand. This is the borderline

19 which indicates where we find Serbia proper, Montenegro, Serbia and

20 Vojvodina. All that is east of this line could well have been

21 coloured yellow. What we see here is it is marked east, west, north

22 and south. These are the UN protected areas in Croatia following the

23 cease fire in early 1992. I have coloured them in full to show just

24 how large the areas are.

25 My main reason for making this map is to draw the attention of

Page 956

1 your Honours to the fact that to link this yellow eastern area to

2 this yellow tree, well, in actual fact, two areas in the west, there

3 is a need for some kind of passage or territorial infrastructure

4 link. I may point out that this is central Bosnia. This is where we

5 find Sarajevo. This is where, sort of, the government in

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina was predominantly in control. This area, as

7 pointed out, had a predominantly Serb population, not Prijedor, not

8 Sanski Most, not Kotor Varos. However, and there were predominant

9 Serb areas in this stretch as well.

10 To link Serbia proper to these areas, there was a need for some

11 kind of a corridor or sometimes the reference to a "corridor" in

12 written sources, meaning newspaper article and when referred to by

13 the military, may be limited to the area of Brcko, opstina Brcko,

14 Bosanski Samac, which you have had witnesses coming in from. In this

15 area, the so-called corridor was very narrow. However, in this area

16 it was quite broad but to get through immediately, not having control

17 of Prijedor, was an obstacle in terms of infrastructure.

18 Q. Dr. Greve, is there a major highway which connects substantial

19 portions of areas you have just been pointing to?

20 A. Yes, actually Prijedor has a character of an intersection in this

21 respect. Obviously, it is much more than an intersection, but also

22 that it links the most important town in the area which is Banja Luka

23 over to Bosanski Novi. It goes straight through Prijedor. It links

24 Bosanski Dubica to Banja Luka through Prijedor, or to Bosanski Novi

25 through Prijedor, or to Sanski Most to the south. So, it

Page 957

1 literally is an intersection between the four cardinal directions.

2 Q. Is there also a railroad which links some of those areas?

3 A. Yes, it is. The railroad in this area goes straight through Prijedor

4 coming again from the west or from the east, depending where you

5 start, of course. It goes straight through Prijedor and onwards to

6 Banja Luka, and onwards to Duboj. It is the only one railroad

7 in that area.

8 Q. Was this passageway from Serbia to Serbian Krajina that you have just

9 indicated considered important by Serbian officials and authorities?

10 A. Yes, it is being referred to as if it is the neck, that links the

11 head and the body. It is referred to as the vital line of life. It

12 is referred to as the crucial point to have one unified territory or

13 united link, geographical territory.

14 MR. TIEGER: May I have this marked next in order, please, for

15 identification. (Document marked) (To the witness): Dr. Greve, do

16 you recognise that document?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Can you tell the court what it is, please?

19 A. This is the original and a translation of an article which appeared

20 1st June 1994 in the local newspaper in opstina Prijedor, the local

21 newspaper called Kozarski Vjesnik, and the headline of the article is

22 "The Glory of all Serbian glories".

23 Q. After the military takeover in Prijedor on April 30th 1992, was

24 Kozarski Vjesnik an independent newspaper?

25 A. No, it was not. Kozarski Vjesnik immediately became almost a mouth

Page 958

1 piece of the new authorities.

2 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender that document.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

4 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 85 will be admitted.

6 MR. TIEGER: May I ask it to be placed on the elmo and the witness's

7 attention directed to page 2, the last paragraph.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I am sorry, Mr. Tieger, I missed -- what paragraph.

9 MR. TIEGER: The last paragraph of page 2, your Honours, which begins,

10 "Loyal followers of Serbian heros". (To the witness): Dr. Greve, do

11 you see in that paragraph a reference to the significance placed by

12 Serbian authorities on the passageway between Serbia proper and

13 Serbian Krajina?

14 A. Yes, I do. It is said in the operation to open the so-called, and in

15 quotation mark "corridor", "that natural and generic (sic) ... of the

16 Serbs in all three Serbian states, the fight is from ... supported by

17 institutions of civil authority and the Serbian people proved that

18 they were loyal followers of Serbian heros from all previous wars and

19 battles ... beginning with the Kosovo battle until now".

20 Q. This is attached from a telegram sent by whom?

21 A. This is sent by the Regional Commander, General Momir Talic who is

22 headquartered in Banja Luka. He is the Commander of the 1st Krajina

23 corps which previously has been referred to under its JNA name by

24 previous witnesses as being the Fifth Krajina or the Banja Luka due

25 to its headquarters. .

Page 959

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think that the witness when she was reading the

2 "natural and genetic" I think she said "generic".


4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Only because I think it is a significance to have

5 pointed out. We will stand in recess for 20 minutes. (4.00 o'clock).

6 (Short adjournment).

7 (4.20 p.m.).


9 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. Your Honour, before I begin I just

10 wanted, if I may, to clarify a question that Judge Stephen asked me

11 earlier that I entirely missed. It was about a reference number I

12 made to a computer exhibit. I did mention a number. It is my

13 understanding that that is the identification number for the document

14 which has already been scanned into the computer. So, if reference

15 is made in the course of the examination to 2/ and then a number, I

16 think that typically refers to an exhibit that has already been

17 scanned into the computer. I am sorry I misunderstood the question.

18 Dr. Greve ----

19 JUDGE STEPHEN: While you are on this, I suppose it is too much to hope

20 that we can get coloured maps of any of these exhibits? Our copies I

21 suspect will all be black and white, will they?

22 MR. TIEGER: For some of the maps we have prepared duplicate colour copies

23 for the Court, especially the map, for example, one of the maps that

24 has already been introduced. I will get the number and perhaps it

25 would be a good time to give a copy to the court, Exhibit 79. I am

Page 960

1 happy to present that now.

2 JUDGE STEPHEN: As the Doctor has said, it is probably very much easier to

3 understand.

4 MR. TIEGER: I am sure it will be possible and we will make an effort to

5 do that for all relevant exhibits.

6 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you very much.

7 MR. TIEGER: Dr. Greve, before the break we were discussing the passageway

8 through from Serbia to Serbia and Krajina, and the significance of

9 that passageway to Serbian officials. In that connection you

10 referred to a telegram from General Talic. I would ask you now to

11 look at a document I would like marked for identification as Exhibit

12 86. What is that document?

13 A. This is another article from Kozarski Vjesnik. I see that

14 unfortunately it is called Publication 02 Vjesnik. I assume this is

15 a mistake. It is Kozarski Vjesnik, the local newspaper which we have

16 been referring to previously. It is dated 15th July 1994, headline:

17 "Faithful to the Homeland and its Ideals".

18 Q. Does it contain the text of a speech by the chairman of the Prijedor

19 SDS?

20 A. Yes, it does, and that is the Serbian party.

21 Q. And was that speech made at a ceremony commemorating the birth of the

22 party?

23 A. Yes, it was.

24 Q. I tender that Exhibit, your Honour.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to Exhibit 86?

Page 961

1 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection, your Honour.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 86 will be admitted.

3 MR. TIEGER: Dr. Greve, directing your attention to page 3 of the English

4 translation, the second paragraph, in his speech does the President

5 of the Prijedor SDS indicate the significance that is attached to the

6 passageway between Serbia and Serbia and Krajina by Serbian

7 officials?

8 A. Yes, it does.

9 Q. And how does he describe that?

10 A. It said: "The word 'corridor' is too weak to describe that bond. The

11 neck is not a corridor between the head and the body; it is all one

12 being, the being of the Serbian nation, said the top man of the

13 Prijedor SDS categorically."

14 Q. Does Prijedor lie right in the midst of that single body?

15 A. Speaking in the language of a body, it is like a heart in the middle

16 of this.

17 Q. Now is an opportunity for me to refer to the computer document 235

18 once more. May that be called up on the screen? I am sorry, your

19 Honour, I would like to ask that Exhibit 79 be placed on the elmo.

20 Dr. Greve, looking at this map of Prijedor, can you point out for the

21 court the major population centres of the opstina?

22 A. Yes. The only larger town is Prijedor itself which is located here;

23 somehow in the middle but rather to the west than the east of the

24 opstina. Then there are some other main population areas. One is

25 underneath the mountain range that we find to the north where the

Page 962

1 central areas are actually Kozarac and Kozarusa.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I can barely see that. Can you zoom on it just a

3 little bit more, Kozarac?

4 A. Here we see Kozarac. Again frequently, as earlier mentioned, the

5 administrative unit is Mjesna Zajednica which is slightly bigger than

6 each area, and frequently one will also refer to an area as the

7 "Kozarac area" or Podgozara, meaning a larger area. But this is

8 Kozarac proper. Maybe I should point out there is one main road from

9 Prijedor that goes the way to Banja Luka. This is a new road and

10 there is an old road. These are the two roads crossing through

11 Kozarac.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is that what is labelled 4 and it appears to be that

13 road?

14 A. Yes, that is the newest road and that leads from Prijedor. It is

15 also called E for European, main road E761. The old road is called

16 13 just to the north, this being the main centre of Kozarac.

17 MR. TIEGER: Approximately how many people lived in the general Kozarac

18 region?

19 A. If we take the entire region, but again it depends on how we want to

20 make the limits to that, but it may be said that almost 27,000 people

21 lived in the larger Kozarac area.

22 Q. What was the general ethnic composition of that area?

23 A. It was predominantly and more than that essentially Muslim.

24 Q. Dr. Greve, can you tell us a little about some of the major

25 industries or economic activities of the opstina?

Page 963

1 A. Maybe if I can take the liberty, I had not finished pointing out some

2 of the main centres. Maybe I confused by being so slow in presenting

3 them, but I would like to point out to the court also the area of

4 Ljubija. We are moving the map and what we are actually seeing now

5 is an area which is to the west and the south of the Prijedor town;

6 it is called Ljubija. That is also one of the main population centres

7 in the opstina, the third largest one.

8 Then coming back to your question, Prijedor as mentioned is

9 located at an intersection. So there were a lot of passage traffic

10 and transport that was allocated to the area. The main industry in

11 the area, this is a mountainous areas, your Honours, and the main

12 industry is an iron ore mine. It is believed to be possibly the

13 second largest in Europe both in quantity and quality. So, it is a

14 large mine and Ljubija is one of the mining centres. We have not

15 touched upon the two other main centres or locations of the mine. It

16 has three locations, one being Omarska and a third being Tomasica.

17 In the middle of the focus at the moment you also see some other

18 industries actually. You will see that there is a clay production

19 plant; it is also known under the name of Keraterm. There were a

20 number of sawmills, timber, paper mills, biscuit factory, soft drink

21 factory, some textile factories. It was considered a prosperous

22 area. It is fertile. It is with quite some agricultural activity,

23 animal husbandry and forestry. It is underneath the mountain of

24 Kozara. The Kozara mountain holds significant importance in the

25 history of the former Yugoslavia during World War II. So, possibly

Page 964

1 the single most important war memorial in the former Yugoslavia is on

2 top of this mountain. There were a lot of tourists coming to the

3 area, both to visit the memorial and also because it has a pleasant

4 climate and a pleasant location with the River Sana, as opposed to

5 the River Sava. The River Sana runs through the opstina. It comes

6 from the west. It comes almost all the way down to Prijedor to the

7 town, and it continues to the south. So Prijedor, in a sense, is in

8 a valley setting.

9 Q. In addition to Kozarski Vjesnik, was there any other local media

10 outlet?

11 A. Yes, Radio Prijedor was the local radio station.

12 Q. Dr. Greve, you indicated that there were three primary ethnic groups

13 or nationalities in Prijedor. How were relations between those

14 groups between World War II and the late 1980s or 1990?

15 A. To my understanding, it was very good relations between the different

16 ethnic groups, to the extent that one is surprised to read local

17 newspaper articles where Serb officials will actually say that they

18 abandoned the brotherhood that existed, and it comes through -- and

19 this is of course an impression which I have having seen all the

20 witness statements -- that people were really surprised that anything

21 like this could happen in Prijedor, because it was an early partisan

22 area and it suffered terribly during World War II. This was an area

23 in which later United Nations Secretary General Kurt Waldheim worked

24 during World War II. So a lot of intelligence work has been made as

25 to what happened in the Prijedor area in World War II. It was

Page 965

1 heavily decimated in the summer of 1942 and all groups suffered

2 tremendously.

3 Obviously the destruction of the area was led by the Germans,

4 their Austrian allies, Kurt Waldheim being an Austrian, the Ustasha,

5 the fascist of the Croatians, but also the Serb Chetniks had been

6 cleared as being useful in co-operating in this. It so comes that in

7 my own country, and I checked these sources in my country and in

8 Belgrade just to get some indication of World War II history,

9 unfortunately many people from Prijedor were taken to Jasanovac which

10 is a terrible concentration camp during World War II, possibly the

11 worst in the former Yugoslavia, but some of them were also taken for

12 slave labour in my own country. So I have looked up the lists of

13 those taken for slave labour in occupied Norway, and among them are

14 many Serbs, but also Muslims from the Prijedor area. So there is a

15 constant reference in every media to the "brotherhood" of the past.

16 They had suffered together and it seems like so many have been sort

17 of emphasising in this case that they really considered one another

18 as living together harmoniously.

19 Q. Was this harmonious relationship which existed for so long after

20 World War II suddenly shattered on April 30th or 1992 or did it build

21 up over time?

22 A. It did build up over time and not the least due to massive propaganda

23 and the upcoming nationalistic trends, but essentially, I hasten to

24 add, outside of Prijedor, but the population in Prijedor became

25 subjected to ethnic hatred, particularly from Serbian medias.

Page 966

1 Q. May I have this document marked for identification as No. 87?

2 THE WITNESS: In the middle of marking the document maybe I should also

3 point out something I forgot. There seems to be a lake on the map,

4 Ridna. This is actually not just an ordinary lake; this is a huge

5 fish farm, fish plant. Thank you.

6 MR. TIEGER: Looking at document 87, can you tell us what that is, please?

7 A. Yes. This is a General Assembly, Security Council document in the

8 UN. It is circulated by both of them. It relates to the situation

9 on human rights in the territory of the former Yugoslavia. It is the

10 Secretary General that presents to the General Assembly and the

11 Security Council a report concerning the situation of human rights in

12 the territory of the former Yugoslavia.

13 Q. I tender that document, your Honour.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

15 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection, your Honour.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 87 will be admitted.

17 MR. TIEGER: Dr. Greve, can I direct your attention to page 10 of that

18 document and ask you if it indicates the role of the media in areas

19 controlled by de facto Bosnian Serb authorities?

20 A. Yes, it does.

21 Q. Have you reviewed that previously?

22 A. Yes, I have.

23 Q. I note that the report was made in 1995.

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. Does the assessment of the situation at that time reflect the role of

Page 967

1 the media at the time in 1991/1992?

2 A. To my understanding, it reflects the situation even better in 1991

3 and 1992 than in 1995, because in 1995 the need for propaganda was

4 not that important.

5 Q. Now in which way does this report indicate the media in areas

6 controlled by de facto Bosnian Serb authorities attempted to

7 influence the population?

8 A. It is indicating that instead of brotherhood there is an upcoming

9 rivalry and worse between the different groups. It is starting to

10 characterise the Croatians as Ustashas and fascists, and it is

11 starting to categorise the Muslims and fundamentalists, people

12 wanting to rage holy war, "Jihad", that is it is presenting a

13 scenario which seems to leave no other options for the Serbs than to

14 join some kind of self-defence against all other groups or possibly

15 face this terrible fate of the past, that is concentration camps such

16 as Jasanovac. It seems to be made an either/or.

17 Q. In paragraph 38 does the report indicate that the Bosnian Serb

18 authorities in essence created their own media for the purpose of

19 disseminating political propaganda?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. In paragraph 40 the report makes reference to broadcasts which refer

22 to President Itzebegovic as "balija". Is that an ethnic insult?

23 A. It is considered to be very derogative, yes.

24 Q. The report indicates that that was done on the Bosnian Serb media?

25 A. That is correct.

Page 968

1 Q. May I ask you to turn to paragraph 43. Now the early reference that

2 you discussed talked about the creation of a Bosnian Serb media.

3 Does this paragraph indicate the manner in which that media in some

4 ways was created?

5 A. Yes. It is referring to certain existing medias being taken over,

6 the control of these medias being taken over by the Bosnian Serbs.

7 Q. May I have this document marked as Exhibit 88 for identification?

8 (Document handed). Doctor, do you recognise this document?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. What is it, please?

11 A. This is a transcript of a broadcast made by Radio TV Banja Luka

12 situated in Banja Luka, being the so-called "Captain" of the region.

13 Q. I tender this document.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to Exhibit 88?

15 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 88 will be admitted.

17 MR. TIEGER: Dr. Greve, let me direct your attention to page 1 of that

18 transcript of the broadcast. What is the occasion which this

19 broadcast marks?

20 A. It marks a celebration of the takeover of the TV relay station on

21 mount Kozarac which was taken over by the Serbs.

22 Q. The broadcast indicates that the takeover occurred when?

23 A. 1st August 1991, but it also indicates, and I think that speaks to a

24 question perhaps previously raised by the Defence, when it comes to

25 information such as the takeover of a TV station, I had information

Page 969

1 from many witnesses which was not very precise, but when I tried to

2 figure out exactly when this was taken over, I had the answer in this

3 TV or this celebrating that has been broadcast, because people told

4 me or witnesses had testified or given information that they

5 recognised the takeover of the TV station actually by approximately

6 March 1992. What this document tells us is that the actual takeover

7 was 1st August the previous year, but they did not start with Serb

8 dominated information or propaganda immediately. It refers to 28

9 months. If I may, for your convenience, draw your attention to the

10 first paragraph because this is a three-year celebration in a sense

11 but it is only 28 months that it has been operational. So, this

12 document tells how bits and pieces of information sometimes would not

13 give me the complete picture, but eventually more and more documents

14 would come up to corroborate the information. I had put it into a

15 more precise context.

16 Q. Looking at paragraph 3, does the broadcast indicate who captured the

17 transmitter?

18 A. Yes, it does.

19 Q. And who was that?

20 A. It is a paramilitary group. I do not see it immediately on my

21 transcript in paragraph 3, but it is a group that called themselves

22 the Wolves. They come from Panjavo or Vukia which is a mountain in

23 Panjavo. Panjavo is an opstina located to the east of Prijedor,

24 east of Banja Luka.

25 Q. Does the broadcast indicate who came with the armed group, again

Page 970

1 looking at paragraph 3 which start with "Reporter"? I direct your

2 attention to the quote which begins "Around 1800 hours ... " Perhaps

3 I am directing your attention to the wrong portion, Doctor. The

4 third paragraph that begins "Reporter", do you see a reference to

5 "1800 hours"?

6 A. Yes. "Around 1800 hours today officials of the Bosanski Krajina SO

7 Municipal Assembly came to the centre with a large armed escort and

8 ordered us to broadcast the satellite programme from Belgrade via the

9 second relay". It is indicating that this was not the paramilitary

10 forces acting on their own. They were actually acting in tandem

11 with, and full co-operation of, both army and political leaders.

12 Q. Does the President of the autonomous region of Krajina appear in the

13 broadcast to celebrate the takeover of the transmitter?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What is his name?

16 A. It is Kupresanin

17 Q. Does the broadcast and does he indicate in the broadcast that the

18 takeover of the transmitter took place under his orders?

19 A. Yes, he does.

20 Q. Is there any official from Prijedor present at the celebration?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Turning to the top of page 2 -- let me ask you first to direct your

23 attention to the bottom of page 1, if I may. That indicates Srdo

24 Srdic Deputy in the People's Assembly in the Republic of Srpske. Do

25 you know from which opstina Srdo Srdic comes?

Page 971

1 A. He lived at least in opstina Prijedor. I do not know if he was also

2 born there.

3 Q. At the time of the takeover of the transmitter, was he a member of

4 SDS and where did he live?

5 A. He lived in opstina Prijedor, and he was a member of the SDS, and he

6 was an early deputy or representative in the People's Assembly of

7 Republika Srpska which, understandably, had a different name.

8 Q. Turning to the first paragraph of page 2, and looking at the last

9 sentence of that paragraph, does Srdo Srdic indicate why the takeover

10 occurred and when the transmitter was taken over?

11 A. Yes, he is emphasising that it is a need for propaganda to be

12 transmitted to the Serbian people.

13 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if we could play the video? Actually, I would

14 ask to have the video of that transcript from which that transcript

15 is taken tendered into evidence before we play it or afterwards.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is exhibit 89. Is there any objection to the

17 video, Mr. Wladimiroff?

18 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 89 will be admitted.

20 MR. TIEGER: That is tape No. 1.

21 (Tape No. 1 was played)

22 Could we hold that for just a moment? I apologise. Your Honour,

23 I apologise. I realised belatedly that the court does not have

24 copies of the transcript before it.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No, we do not.

Page 972

1 MR. TIEGER: We have two copies at the moment, if that would be convenient

2 for the court? Actually, three copies, if the Defence has no

3 objection; one is marked.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We can use two copies. How many pages is this

5 exhibit, Mr. Tieger, the transcript, 88?

6 MR. TIEGER: Four, your Honour. If I recall correctly, we have just

7 stopped at the portion that would have been marked "caption", if the

8 court wishes to continue rather than rewind it. We have just

9 concluded the anchor giving the introductory portion. I think we

10 stopped at the logo. We can continue.

11 (Tape No. 1 continued)

12 Dr. Greve, in addition to inciting hatred against Muslims and Croats

13 by the use of such terms as referred to in the Masowieski Report,

14 did the Bosnian Serb media under the control of the de facto

15 authorities attempt to instil or inspire Serbian nationalism?

16 A. Yes, it did.

17 Q. In what sorts of ways was that done?

18 A. Several different ways. Nationalism as it is coming up,

19 unfortunately, in many parts of Europe; it was inspired by going back

20 to historic events. For (1) there was a celebration of a 600

21 anniversary of the Battle of Kosovo Polje in 1989, and it was made a

22 big issue that the Serb nation was let down by other people in the

23 area when the Turks, the Ottoman Empire, were able to invade this

24 part of Europe.

25 They were referring to the glorious past; they were referring to

Page 973

1 religious symbols and they were also, in particular, emphasising that

2 there could be quite a threat to the Serbs as a nation if they did

3 not stick together as they could be subjected to new attack by other

4 national groups, with specific reference then to the Croatians and

5 with the slogan "the Ustasha" which was for good reasons, very good

6 reasons, useful in terms of instilling fear.

7 They were also with this general reference to some

8 fundamentalist, politicized Muslim communities elsewhere and,

9 essentially, outside Europe referring to the Muslims as being

10 possibly a threat to the existence of the Serb nation. This also

11 happened -- maybe I am jumping slightly in terms of time, but as soon

12 as disintegration of the former Yugoslavia start, it is being

13 presented so that if for any one reason Serbs would become a minority

14 population, which they had not been used to in new independent

15 states, their whole existence could be very perilous and endangered.

16 So it was made for many people as if they had no choice but a full

17 scale war against everyone else, or to be subjected to the old type

18 concentration camp, the symbol being "Jasanovac".

19 Q. What was the effect of this propaganda? Was it effective?

20 A. It was extremely effective, and I think that many, many people,

21 having been subjected to this for a long period of time, repeatedly

22 and frequently in very skilled manners, they really were

23 frightened; they were thinking: "Possibly, possibly, something is

24 building up. I do not see it because I am so friendly with my

25 neighbours and relatives, but possibly outside this area, I must be

Page 974

1 alert to it", and it was very cleverly done and they were afraid and

2 I think it is genuine.

3 MR. TIEGER: Can I ask that this document be marked for identification as

4 Exhibit 90? (To the witness): What does this document contain, Dr.

5 Greve?

6 A. This document is a short quotation which I used for my Prijedor study

7 analysing the events in Prijedor I have found in the historian Noel

8 Malcolm's book entitled, "Bosnia, a short history", which was printed

9 in 1994.

10 MR. TIEGER: I tender this.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to Exhibit 90?

12 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection, your Honour.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 90 will be admitted.

14 THE WITNESS: I may, perhaps, take this opportunity to say that within the

15 -----

16 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, I am sorry, can I ask you to put that on the elmo

17 so the court could see it?

18 A. Sure. No, it was not common to the document, but the fact that I am

19 using reference to an historian. I tried to approach every historian

20 whom I came across or had the possibility to get in touch with

21 throughout my study, any nationality, any background, any sign to the

22 conflict.

23 Q. Directing your attention to Mr. Malcolm's quote, does he indicate

24 that he has attempted to assess the effective propaganda based on his

25 wide travels in Bosnia over 15 years?

Page 975

1 A. Yes, he does.

2 Q. And his review of radio/television Belgrade during period 1991 to

3 1992?

4 A. Well, he is saying that he thought the coexistence between the groups

5 were very friendly but that the propaganda, unfortunately, was very

6 efficient.

7 Q. So his experience over a 15 year period was that the country was not

8 seething with ethnic hatred?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. But, having watched radio/television Belgrade, he began to understand

11 what had happened?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What does he say about that?

14 A. He is actually saying that it is understandable under the

15 circumstances that the local population really became afraid.

16 Q. Does he quote an independent Belgrade journal itself to try to put it

17 in context?

18 A. Yes, he does. He is quoting a journalist called Milos Vacic(?) and

19 he is -- who is making an allusion to the American context. Did you

20 want me to read it? Yes? "You must imagine a United States with

21 every little TV station everywhere taking exactly the same editorial

22 line, a line dictated by David Duke. You too would have war in five

23 years", and then the reference is to the Ku Klux Klan.

24 MR. TIEGER: Dr. Greve, I would like you to take a look at this document.

25 JUDGE VOHRAH: Dr. Greve, who is David Duke? I am not American so I do

Page 976

1 not know.

2 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I may? He was a neo-Nazi or very extreme

3 right wing racist, political leader from Louisiana who came

4 perilously close to obtaining some higher officer in Louisiana.

5 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.

6 MR. TIEGER: Can the witness be shown Exhibit 85, please? Can you put

7 page 1 on the elmo, please? (To the witness): Dr. Greve, this

8 article concerns what event in opstina Prijedor?

9 A. It is a celebration, the day and glory of the Army of Republika

10 Srpska. It is also orthodox church holiday, St. Vitus.

11 Q. Have you had a chance to review the entire article?

12 A. Previously, yes.

13 Q. Does it contain examples of the type of propaganda that you were

14 speaking of earlier?

15 A. Yes, it does.

16 Q. Let me direct your attention to paragraph 2 which begins "Today".

17 First of all, looking at the line above, can you tell who was

18 speaking?

19 A. I assume it will be Radmilo Zeljaja or is it .....

20 Q. Let me ask you this: were both the Commanders of the Prijedor

21 Brigades present at the celebration?

22 A. Yes, they were. Pero Colic as well.

23 Q. The article indicates that they both spoke and are quoted in this

24 article?

25 A. That is my understanding.

Page 977

1 Q. In this first quote, if you look to the bottom of the paragraph which

2 begins "But our honourable noblemen", can you see who is speaking?

3 A. I only see a reference to Colonel Radmilo Zeljaja.

4 Q. What is it that Colonel Zeljaja said at that celebration?

5 A. Again it is going back to something briefly mentioned earlier.

6 Prince Lassa(?) is one of the three saints and historically important

7 people in the Serbian nation of whom they are duly very proud.

8 Prince Lassa was fighting the battle on behalf of the Serbs at Kosovo

9 Polje which was formed in 1389. Now, it is referred to as 605 years

10 ago.

11 Q. So this is one example of the promotion of Serbian nationalism you

12 have referred to earlier?

13 A. It is.

14 Q. OK. That would include the reference to Prince Lassa, the reference

15 to Serb noblemen, empire and destiny as well as the characterization

16 of the Serbs as the most tolerant and greatest people on the entire

17 planet?

18 A. It is a very mixed article, if I may say so, because, of course, it

19 is making reference to points of history of which the Serbs have

20 every reason to be proud and to remember, and not the same as in the

21 Far East, but also in Europe, we have this long tradition of going

22 back for hundreds and hundreds of years and in this sense, perhaps,

23 600 years is not that much.

24 Q. Is Colonel Colic, the Commander of 5th Kozara Brigade also quoted as

25 speaking at the celebration?

Page 978

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Does he focus on the threat presented to Serbian people and their

3 potential imperilment?

4 A. Yes, he is.

5 Q. Is that a reference to, in part, the history you described earlier?

6 A. Yes, it is. It also has an unfortunate reference to this as being

7 the Third World War.

8 Q. Can I direct your attention to page 2, please?

9 A. Is there participation in this celebration at least by telegram by

10 General Ratko Mladic?

11 A. Yes, there is.

12 Q. Does he refer to the efforts made by the military forces in the

13 Prijedor area?

14 A. Yes, he does.

15 Q. How does he refer to those efforts?

16 A. "Up to now our army has managed to successfully protect the Serbian

17 population from the extermination which had been planned, liberated

18 the greatest parts of the Serb land and made it possible for the

19 Serbs in these areas to take their destiny into their hands for the

20 first time".

21 Q. Does he congratulate them in the second paragraph?

22 A. Yes, he does.

23 Q. And recognise their achievements and then does he invite them to do

24 something?

25 A. Yes, he does.

Page 979

1 Q. What is that?

2 A. "... invite you to persist in achieving your freedom and the creation

3 of a unified Serbian state by maintaining a high level of combat

4 readiness of our units and safeguarding our front lines and through

5 strong moral and unity of the people and army, and I wish St. Vitus

6 Day to be celebrated in peace in the years to come."

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What is the date on this?

8 MR. TIEGER: June 1st, 1994.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I wondered, for the record, could you just tell us

10 what St. Vitus Day -- what is that?

11 A. It is my understanding, but I have not been able to have this -- I

12 actually checked through the embassies to have a proper calendar of

13 the different religious feasts -- but it is the day when they

14 celebrate svet knez Lazar being the Prince Lazar, and it maybe that

15 St. Vitus

16 is actually a reference to him. But now I am guessing. I am

17 afraid I am not fully able to help you in this, but it is celebrated

18 the same day.

19 MR. TIEGER: Dr. Greve, directing your attention once more to page 1.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The same day that the Turks defeated the -----


22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 1589 or something? No.

23 THE WITNESS: I must also humbly admit I do not know history that well

24 that I know this.


Page 980

1 MR. TIEGER: Looking at the last line of the first page, is there a

2 reference to the brotherhood that once existed in the Prijedor area?

3 A. Yes, it is. The last line actually says, or the last sentence: "We

4 will win because we have firmly decided not to live any longer in

5 brotherhood with those who slaughter our children and with false

6 brothers who have spat several times at Serbian goodness and

7 decency".

8 Q. Thank you, doctor. Your Honour, I know time has been a

9 consideration, but I am moving on to a separate topic.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then we will adjourn until tomorrow at 10 a.m.

11 (5.30 p.m.)

12 (The hearing adjourned until the following day)