Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1838




4 Wednesday, 5th June 1996

5 (10.00 a.m.)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, you were going to tell us about an

7 exhibit discussed yesterday afternoon?

8 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honours. I was indebted to Judge Stephen for

9 pointing that out to us because it is very unclear when one looks at

10 the original exhibit and compares it with the translation. We are

11 rather keen to ensure that there is an understanding of that. Might I

12 have your Honour's leave to interpose very quickly a translator that

13 carried out the translation so she can explain why she inserted the

14 words where she did? I think it would be useful if we could do that.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What exhibit number is that again?

16 MR. NIEMANN: It is Exhibit 150, your Honour.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff, do you have any objection to our

18 hearing in a very few minutes about this exhibit?


20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Thank you, Mr. Niemann.

21 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honour pleases, I call Miss Fisek.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Need she be sworn, Mr. Wladimiroff?


24 MR. NIEMANN: That is fine.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Please have a seat.

Page 1839


2 MR. NIEMANN: Would you just state your full name, please?

3 A. My name is Dahira Fisek.

4 Q. You are a qualified translator employed in the translation unit of

5 the Tribunal, which unit is under the supervision of the Registrar?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. As part of the duties of the translation unit are documents submitted

8 for translation from various sources including the Defence, the

9 Chambers and Office of the Prosecutor?

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me, Mr. Niemann, it appears I have a problem

11 getting the transcript up on my screen -- of all the times when we are

12 talking about other technical problems!

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good, OK. Mr. Niemann, you have it before you

14 and you can see where we have left off. You may begin again, I would

15 suggest.

16 MR. NIEMANN: I will start with the second question. (To the witness):

17 As part of the duties of the translation unit, are documents submitted

18 for translation from various sources, including the Defence, the

19 Chambers and Office of the Prosecutor?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Would you look, please, at Exhibit 150? Might that exhibit be shown

22 to the witness? Could you just look at both pages of that exhibit?

23 Looking at the original document in the Serb language and the English

24 translation attached, did you do the English translation from the

25 original document?

Page 1840

1 A. I did.

2 Q. Is the typing on the original document of very poor quality in that

3 it appears that the ribbon on the typewriter at the time the document

4 was created must have been badly worn?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. As a consequence of the worn typewriter ribbon, have some of the

7 numbers and words on the document not been reproduced with the carbon

8 imprint of the ribbon on the document?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. However, in some places has the paper been indented by the

11 typewriter key where it has struck the paper. Although the carbon

12 imprint from the ribbon is not visible, is the indentation on the

13 paper of the key strike visible from the document if it is held to the

14 light?

15 A. It is.

16 Q. When you translated the original document, could you see some of the

17 typewriter key indentations which you could decipher, and did you

18 include those words and numbers in the translation to the English

19 language?

20 A. I could see it and I did include them, yes.

21 Q. Was the word "Dusko", where it appears as the typewriter key

22 indentation on the sixth line from the top of the original document,

23 included in your translation to the English language, and does the

24 word "Dusko" appear on the fifth line from the top of the English

25 translation?

Page 1841

1 A. Yes, it does.

2 Q. Did you decide to include the word "Dusko" and other words and

3 numbers in a similar circumstance in the English translation as a

4 result of your own decision or were you instructed by any other person

5 to include these letters or words?

6 A. It was my own decision.

7 Q. It was your own decision. No further questions.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff, do you have any questions?

9 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, very good. Thank you very much for coming. We

11 appreciate it.

12 (The witness withdrew)

13 Miss Hollis, would you like to continue with Colonel Selak?

14 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.


16 Examined by MISS HOLLIS, continued.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Colonel Selak, you are still under oath. Do you

18 understand that, sir?

19 THE WITNESS [In translation]: Yes.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may proceed, Miss Hollis.

21 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour. (To the witness): Colonel Selak, at

22 the close of the session yesterday we were talking about the ethnic

23 orientation of the JNA, and I would like to ask you some additional

24 questions concerning that. Did you know a Colonel Vukelic in the

25 Banja Luka area?

Page 1842

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was his position in 1991 and 1992?

3 A. Colonel Vukelic was Assistant for Ethics of the Commander of the 5th

4 Corps of the 1st Military District.

5 Q. This was the Military District that you were in in 1991?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was Colonel Vukelic an active duty or a reserve officer?

8 A. Active duty.

9 Q. What was his ethnic group?

10 A. Serb.

11 Q. Where was he from?

12 A. Bosnia.

13 Q. What were his duties in his position?

14 A. Assistant for Ethics; prepared morally, ethically the units,

15 maintained relations with the media, with political bodies,

16 socio-political organisations in the area of responsibility of the

17 Corps.

18 Q. Starting in 1991, did you become aware of statements that Colonel

19 Vukelic was making to the public and the media in which he was making

20 anti-Muslim or anti-Croat remarks?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you tell us the type of statements that he was making?

23 A. His statements were of a propaganda nature. He expressed belief that

24 the Serb people in Bosnia-Herzegovina was in danger, that it needed to

25 be protected and it all indicated that his need to mobilize the

Page 1843

1 members of the Corps, both the officers and soldiers, for the

2 struggle, as he put it, to save the Serbs from the genocide. His

3 statements appeared in media, in Banja Luka papers, in the paper Glas,

4 on radio and television.

5 Q. In his statements how did he characterise Croats or Muslims?

6 A. He characterised them as the adversaries of Serbs, preparing genocide

7 over the Serbs, and within this context were his behaviour, his

8 statements.

9 Q. At the end of 1991, do you recall being present at a meeting at which

10 General Vidovic spoke about a new Yugoslavia?

11 A. Yes that was on 26th December '91. While submitting the report to

12 the Assistant for the Logistics Commander in Belgrade, one General

13 Vidovic, as the Assistant Commander of the 1st Military District for

14 Ethics and Legal Affairs, stated that Yugoslavia would survive and

15 that within Yugoslavia would be Serb Krajinas and the Republic Serb --

16 Serb Republic from Bosnia-Herzegovina in addition to other republics.

17 Q. General Vidovic was of what ethnic group?

18 A. Serb.

19 Q. Do you know where he was from?

20 A. From Serbia.

21 Q. Was he an active duty or a reserve officer?

22 A. Active duty.

23 Q. What other individuals attended that briefing, to your recollection?

24 A. That briefing with the Assistant Logistics Commander were the

25 Commander of all the Logistics Bases, Rear Bases Corps, and General

Page 1844

1 Vidovic's assistants; at the close of the meeting the Commander of the

2 Military District was also present.

3 Q. Was the Commander of the Military District present when General

4 Vidovic made his remarks?

5 A. No. No, he was not. He came at the end of the meeting.

6 Q. Do you recall attending a briefing at the 5th Corps on 1st January

7 1992, at which briefing the Corps Commander briefed that the JNA now

8 had two tasks before it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What were the two tasks that the Corps Commander briefed?

11 A. It was the first briefing of the new Commander of the 5th Corps of

12 the 1st Military District of General Vidovic who replaced General

13 Uzelac; and at the briefing he said, among other things, that the army

14 had two tasks in these territories, to save the Serbs from the

15 genocide in Croatia and, the second task, to pull out all materiel and

16 equipment from Slovenia and Croatia, the active duty troops, officers

17 and members of families of the military and from the Republic of

18 Croatia.

19 Q. During that briefing did General Vukovic indicate anything at all

20 about protecting Muslims or Croats from genocide?

21 A. No, not a word.

22 Q. Yesterday you mentioned that Major Pavlovic was one of your escorts

23 starting in the second half of 1991. He was assigned to the 5th Corps

24 at that time; is that correct?

25 A. No, Pavlovic, my Assistant for Ethics, he was my Assistant in the

Page 1845

1 Command of the Rear Base, but he had been posted there Pavlovic,

2 Jordan Pavlovic.

3 Q. In late 1991 or 1992 did you become aware of any anti-Muslim or

4 anti-Croat statement that Major Pavlovic was making publicly?

5 A. I can say with regard to Major Pavlovic that he was particularly

6 active, especially in instigation in the segment of hatred,

7 anti-propaganda against Muslims and Croats, and he tried to expel them

8 out from the Rear Base of the 5th Corps saying that they were unfit

9 for political or moral reasons or other reasons. At the briefings of

10 my units, he also spoke about the threat to the Serbs. He was one of

11 the most adverse elements in the command of that Base.

12 Q. The referendum concerning Bosnian independence was held on 29th

13 February and 1st March 1992. Yesterday you mentioned Colonel Cendic

14 during your testimony and indicated that he was your Chief of Staff;

15 is that correct?

16 A. Yes, Colonel Cendic, Radislav, he was Chief of Staff and Deputy

17 during the preparations for the referendum, and on the day of the

18 referendum he advised, he brought the units together and advised the

19 soldiers how to vote.

20 Q. How did he tell them to vote?

21 A. To vote against the referendum, against the independence of the

22 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23 Q. How did you learn what he had told the soldiers?

24 A. There were still honest people, people of integrity. I heard that

25 from soldiers and from superiors and, after all, I was the Commander

Page 1846

1 of that Base and information reached me from the grass roots upward.

2 Q. In the spring of 1992 who was the Commander of the 5th Corps?

3 A. In the spring of '92 from the 28.12.91 to the end was General Vukovic

4 who was then transferred to Nis and was killed in a traffic accident.

5 After that, Major General Momir Talic became the Commander.

6 Q. After General Talic became Commander of the Corps, did you become

7 aware of General Talic making public statements that were anti-Muslim?

8 A. General Talic pursued the -- implemented the policy of the superior

9 command and the Serb policy. He was not expected to behave otherwise

10 because he would not have become the Commander of the Corps. He would

11 have never been assigned to that duty. He, indeed, tried to mobilize

12 the people, the men. He often addressed the units. He spoke to them

13 about the danger against the Serb people.

14 He first spoke against Slovenia, then against Croatia, that

15 they had broken Yugoslavia apart, and that genocide against the Serb

16 people was that the genocide was threatening the Serb people. His

17 speeches, his addresses, were always in that context.

18 Q. Colonel Selak, to your knowledge, did General Talic meet often with

19 SDS members in the Banja Luka area?

20 A. General Talic had regular briefings with political bodies, notably

21 the SDS. He was a member of the Crisis Staff of Banja Luka.

22 Therefore, he and Colonel Vukelic, his Assistant for Ethics and Head

23 of Security, Colonel Bogavic, were regularly there.

24 Q. Sir, I would like to turn now to some questions about the Territorial

25 Defence forces. The Territorial Defence forces were controlled by the

Page 1847

1 republics and the municipalities and were separate from the JNA; is

2 that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. From what source did the Territorial Defence forces get their

5 officers?

6 A. The Territorial Defence was replenished with active duty officers of

7 the Yugoslav People's Army. They were, by and large, men approaching

8 the end of their career, some of failing health.

9 Q. What types of weapons did the TO units have?

10 A. The TO units had small arms, light, and they had some mortars, and a

11 few canons of smaller calibres, some anti-infantry mines, hand-made

12 hand bombs, hand grenades, and some were given, some they made

13 themselves, some were given by the JNA at the beginning.

14 Q. Did they also have small arms including automatic weapons?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Are you familiar with a weapon that is known as the M48?

17 A. Yes. It is an old Yugoslav rifle or Austro-Hungarian provenance. It

18 was modified by the Yugoslav People's Army and it was updated for the

19 last time in 1948. That is why it is called 48. The calibre is 7.9

20 millimetres. The TO, for the large part, had precisely those rifles

21 order, automatic weapons; and of late, in the latest years, yes, they

22 did indeed get some automatic rifles when the JNA was replenished,

23 then a smaller number. Some units were issued automatic weapons.

24 Q. What types of vehicles did the TO units have?

25 A. TO units had heavy vehicles, that is, what opstinas of the republic

Page 1848

1 would purchase from the manufacturers depending on the money, what

2 they could afford, because it was financed by republics and

3 municipalities. So they had civilian vehicles.

4 Q. When we speak of "combat vehicles", what is meant by that term?

5 A. Combat vehicles means tanks, APCs, reconnaissance vehicles, that is,

6 combat vehicles carrying weapons.

7 Q. Did the Territorial Defence units have combat vehicles?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Who supplied the Territorial Defence with their weapons and

10 equipment?

11 A. These rifles of 7.9 millimetres and those older automatic weapons

12 which the JNA was discarding from its equipment, it gave them to TO

13 units and the rest of the equipment they had to buy themselves, that

14 is, supply field equipment and whatever these units needed. The army

15 gave them what it was discarding from its formations. We were getting

16 new equipment, new weapons.

17 Q. So the canons and the other heavier type weapons you talked about

18 would have come from the JNA?

19 A. They did not have heavy weapons. I said smaller calibre canons, yes,

20 that is, older models, older makes and smaller quantities, less than

21 they really needed.

22 Q. Those would have come from the JNA?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Where were the weapons and materiels that the TO units had, where

25 were those stored?

Page 1849

1 A. The TO unit had its storage space which they provided for for

2 themselves and they also had their guards and sentries, their records,

3 their book-keeping. The army had no say in that, nor did it help

4 them.

5 Q. In the late 1980s or the early 1990s, did you participate in or

6 become aware of the JNA taking weapons back from the territorial units

7 in the republics?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When did that happen?

10 A. The mid or towards the end of 1990, the order came that the weapons

11 of the Territorial Defence had to be pulled out to the depots of the

12 JNA. In the depots of the Bases, of my Base and other Bases, these

13 weapons were collected as equipment and where there were no Bases

14 these were surrendered to the units of the Corps, Brigades and the

15 rest.

16 Q. What types of weapons were retrieved from the Territorial Defence

17 forces?

18 A. All weapons were retrieved from pistols to rifles, to mortars and the

19 rest.

20 Q. What was the authority for this action?

21 A. The Federal Assembly passed a law that the Territorial Defence

22 weapons should be returned to the army, the JNA depots, and then these

23 orders were passed on to the Base levels and through the governments

24 of the republics. It was insisted that the weapons should be

25 returned.

Page 1850

1 Q. So this would have been a law from the Federal Assembly of the

2 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did all of the republics within the former Yugoslavia comply with

5 this order?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Which republics did not comply?

8 A. Slovenia, Croatia slowed down the tempo of its activities so that in

9 the meantime the Croatian people put up resistance and the formation

10 of the Republic of Croatia took place, and a part of the weapons that

11 was not returned was used for the struggle against the army or,

12 rather, for the acquisition of independence.

13 Q. In Bosnia-Herzegovina, was this order carried out?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. During what time period in Bosnia-Herzegovina was this order carried

16 out?

17 A. I think this was completed by the end of 1990, whether one or two

18 municipalities, because this took time, it was necessary to inspect

19 the weapons. I cannot remember exactly the date. I think it was the

20 end of '90, maybe a little into '91. I am not sure.

21 Q. Subsequent to these weapons being collected from the Territorial

22 Defence forces in Bosnia-Herzegovina, subsequent to that, to your

23 knowledge, were any of these weapons given back to Territorial Defence

24 units or civilians?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1851

1 Q. When did that begin to happen?

2 A. This began in '91. At the time of the beginning of the war in

3 Slovenia, later in Croatia, the Federal Assembly, when it took the

4 decision on collection of weapons, authorised the Yugoslav People's

5 Army to be able to approve the issuance of weapons to Territorial

6 Defence units if the Territorial Defence is mobilized; and this

7 precondition was used in the course of '91 to issue through the JNA

8 weapons to some municipalities.

9 Q. On 26th December 1992, we have previously spoken of a briefing that

10 you attended. Do you recall during that briefing remarks by General

11 Crmaric during which he gave instructions as to what additional

12 approvals had to be obtained before weapons could be issued to

13 Territorial Defence forces -- I am sorry, 1991.

14 A. Yes, I was at the briefing for the Assistant Commander of Logistics

15 of the 1st Military District when General Crmaric, Assistant for the

16 rear, in his statement announced, among other things, that units of

17 Territorial Defence cannot be issued weapons without the approval of

18 the Federal Secretariat for national defence.

19 Q. This Federal Secretary for National Defence was located where?

20 A. It was in Belgrade.

21 Q. General Crmaric, you said, was Assistant Commander for the rear; what

22 exactly what his position?

23 A. His exact position was Assistant for the rear of the 1st Military

24 District in Belgrade.

25 Q. Was this Assistant for Logistics?

Page 1852

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In fact, after this briefing, Territorial Defence units were given

3 weapons, were they not?

4 A. No, only some opstinas or municipalities which were given this

5 approval. I personally did not see this approval because it went to

6 the level of the Corps Commanders. I have not seen it, but I heard

7 about it, and the Commander of the Banja Luka Corps used this right

8 given to him.

9 Q. These units who received the approval from this Federal Secretariat,

10 they were then given weapons by the JNA?

11 A. Yes.

12 MISS HOLLIS: Could I, please, have a document marked as the next in line,

13 I believe that would be Prosecution Exhibit 163 for identification?

14 That does include an English translation. If that could be marked and

15 given to the witness. For Defence reference, that is document 13.

16 (Exhibit 163 was handed to the witness). (To the witness): Colonel

17 Selak, would you please examine that document?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Who is that document from?

20 A. This document was issued by the command of the Second Military

21 District, representative of the Chief of Staff of the Technical

22 Service, Colonel Gredimir Petrovic.

23 Q. Did you know him?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. To whom is that document being sent?

Page 1853

1 A. It is sent to the command of the 5th Corps and the command of the

2 993rd Logistics Base of which I was the Commander.

3 Q. What is the date on the document?

4 A. February 22nd 1992.

5 Q. Without going into great detail, would you tell us what is the

6 subject of that document?

7 A. This document gives orders to the command of the Logistics Base and

8 command of the 5th Corps and on the basis of the orders of the Chief

9 of Staff of the Yugoslav Army for the replenishment of the 3rd

10 Detachment of the 10th Partisan Division of the 5th Corps that weapons

11 should be issued for 76 millimetre ammunition, for 76 millimetre

12 cannon, ammunition for 27 millimetre machine gun, hand grenades.

13 Q. Colonel Selak, before you go into additional details, I would tender

14 this document as Prosecution Exhibit 163.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection?

16 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 163 will be admitted.

18 MISS HOLLIS: Could the English translation of that document be put on the

19 overhead projector, please? (To the witness): Sir, you have

20 indicated that this order from Colonel Petrovic was as a result of an

21 order by the General Staff of the JNA, is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. That the unit to be reinforced was the 3rd Territorial Defence

24 Detachment; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, the 3rd Detachment of Territorial Defence of the 10th division

Page 1854

1 of the 5th Corps, that was the name, the 3rd Detachment of Territorial

2 Defence.

3 Q. To your knowledge, was that a Serb unit?

4 A. Yes.

5 MISS HOLLIS: At this time could we retrieve Prosecution Exhibit 159?

6 Hesitantly, of course, this is the map with the Krajinas on it, I

7 believe.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I promise not to ask a question. We will stick with

9 three.

10 MISS HOLLIS: Could that map be put on the overhead, please?

11 (To the witness): Colonel Selak, by pointing at the map on the overhead

12 projector itself, not on your screen, could you please point out for

13 us the area of operation of this 3rd Territorial Defence Detachment?

14 A. The 3rd Territorial Defence Detachment was a part of the 10th

15 Partisan Division located in the region west of Bosanska Gradiska on

16 the Sava River, and the 3rd Detachment was somewhere around Bosanska

17 Dubica and across the Sava River is Jasenovac. Therefore, its

18 direction of operation was Jasenovac.

19 Q. Colonel Selak, would you please point to the exhibit which is on the

20 overhead projector and just show us in general the area of operation

21 of the 3rd Territorial Defence unit?

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Of course, we have a problem with the microphone.

23 Colonel Selak, if you can pull that microphone towards you, then maybe

24 we can hear you while you are pointing to the areas.

25 THE WITNESS: OK. The area of responsibility of the 10th division and its

Page 1855

1 3rd Detachment was Sanski Most, Bosanska Dubica, along the Sava River

2 valley.

3 MISS HOLLIS: So, sir, this is within the area that is in blue on the map?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. If the English version of Prosecution Exhibit 163 could

6 be replaced on to the overhead? Sir, in general, could you tell us

7 what type of munitions were to be supplied?

8 A. The first item, 76 millimetre grenade, and they were piercing

9 grenades, subcalibre grenades, for M18 weapons made in the US. The

10 Yugoslav Army received them somewhere in the 50s from the United

11 States of America. Under (2) from the second ammunition warehouse at

12 Mrkonjic Grad, which is the warehouse of the Logistics Base, the 12.7

13 millimetre bullet, anti-aircraft and tracer bullets for Browning, hand

14 grenades M75, and 76 millimetre bullets for canon M42 guns, and 76

15 millimetres for smaller guns.

16 Q. Colonel Selak, you said or the order says that the 3rd Territorial

17 Defence Detachment is part of the 10th Partisan Division. Was the

18 10th Partisan Division an active duty or a reserve unit?

19 A. Its composition, it was a reserve unit.

20 Q. The Commander of that division, to your knowledge, would that be an

21 active duty or a reserve officer?

22 A. The Commander of the 10th division was Colonel Josovic Rade.

23 Q. Was he an active duty or a reserve officer?

24 A. Active duty officer.

25 Q. What was his ethnic group?

Page 1856

1 A. Serb.

2 Q. Do you know where he was from?

3 A. Yes, from Uzice, Serbia.

4 MISS HOLLIS: At this time I would like another document marked. I would

5 ask that this document be marked Prosecution Exhibit 164 for

6 identification. This also includes an English translation. For the

7 Defence reference, this is document 14. (Exhibit 164 was handed to the

8 witness). (To the witness): Colonel Selak, would you please look at

9 that document?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Who is that document from?

12 A. From the command of the 2nd Military District.

13 Q. Is there a name of a person on that document?

14 A. Yes, the signatory is the Commander of the 2nd Military District,

15 Colonel General Milutin Kukanjac.

16 Q. Do you know him?

17 A. I have known him for almost 20 years.

18 Q. What is the date on that document?

19 A. April 1st 1992.

20 Q. To whom is that document directed?

21 A. To units of the 5th Corps and the Logistics Base, Banja Luka. The

22 units of the 5th Corps and the Logistics Base.

23 Q. Very briefly, could you tell us what the subject of this document is?

24 A. These are orders to the Logistics Base of the 5th Corps to issue

25 weapons for units for the Serb Republic and for Territorial Defence

Page 1857

1 units of western Slovenia, launching mechanisms, 20 millimetre guns.

2 Q. Colonel Selak, before you go into details your Honour, I would tender

3 this document as Prosecution Exhibit 164?

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection?

5 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection, your Honour.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 164 will be admitted.

7 MISS HOLLIS: Could the English translation of that document be put on the

8 projector, please? (To the witness): Colonel Selak, without going

9 into great detail about it, could you tell us in general what types of

10 weaponry are to be provided to the Territorial Defence units?

11 A. These are anti-aircraft gun, 20 through 1 millimetre, model 75. That

12 means it was manufactured in 1975, and firing mechanisms for the needs

13 of the Territorial Defence of western Slovenia.

14 MISS HOLLIS: If 159 could be put again on the overhead projector -----

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Just one minute. Is there something -- can you

16 lower that just a little bit? Is it signed by someone?

17 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I believe he indicated it was signed by General

18 Kukanjac. Could you put the Serbo-Croatian document on the overhead,

19 please, and show the signature at the bottom?


21 MISS HOLLIS: If I could have Prosecution Exhibit 159 put on the overhead,

22 please? (To the witness): Sir, again pointing to the exhibit on the

23 projector itself, could you show us what area they are discussing when

24 they talk about the Serb area of western Slavonia?

25 A. Western Slavonia, the territory of western Slovenia is coloured here

Page 1858

1 in green. They are the places, localities of Lipik, Pakrac, Nova

2 Gradiska.

3 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us what they mean on this order when they

4 talk about "SRT"?

5 A. It is an abbreviation for means of war, equipment or materiel; that

6 means for replenishing the materiel of Territorial Defence of western

7 Slavonia.

8 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, sir. If I could have another exhibit marked,

9 please? This would be Prosecution Exhibit 165 for identification.

10 Again it has an English translation. For the Defence, this is

11 document 20. (Exhibit 165 was handed to the witness). (To the

12 witness): Sir, could you please examine that document? That document

13 is from whom?

14 A. The document is from the command of the 2nd Military District.

15 Q. Is there a name and a signature that appears at the bottom of that

16 document?

17 A. Yes, the document was signed by the Commander of the 2nd Military

18 District Colonel General Milutin Kukanjac.

19 Q. To whom is that document being sent?

20 A. The command is sent to the command of the 5th, 9th and 10th Corps of

21 the 2nd Military area, 4th, 5th, 510th and 933rd Logistics Bases.

22 Q. What is the date of that document?

23 A. April 8th 1992.

24 Q. Very briefly, could you tell us what is the subject of this document?

25 A. The contents of the document is that it explains the relocation of

Page 1859

1 units of the Republika Srspka Krajina should be done, and the

2 formation of Logistics Bases of the supreme staff of the Territorial

3 Defence of the Republika Srspka Krajina, and for this reason orders

4 are given for the Logistic Bases in the 2nd Military District to

5 replenish with materiel means as are necessary for the main staff of

6 Territorial Defence of the Republika Srspka Krajina.

7 Q. Sir, before you go into any additional detail, I would like to tender

8 that document as Prosecution Exhibit 165.

9 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 165 will be admitted.

11 MISS HOLLIS: Could the English translation be put on the projector,

12 please? Sir, the classification of this document is what?

13 A. The document is strictly confidential as a document.

14 Q. What level classification is that?

15 A. The highest level of classification -- only a State secret is higher

16 than that.

17 Q. Sir, as I understand what you said, this document is addressing the

18 relocation of JNA units from UN safer areas as well as forming

19 Logistics Bases that would be part of a Territorial Defence, is that

20 correct?

21 A. Yes, from within the territory of the Republika Srspka Krajina, this

22 was at the time when United Nations were due to arrive to the

23 territory of the Republic of Croatia, and that is why the main staff

24 of Srpska Krajina relocated units to different regions and asked from

25 the General Staff in Belgrade for assistance; and the Commander of the

Page 1860

1 2nd Military District refers to the order to carry out this task, that

2 is, to form Logistic Bases of Territorial Defence of the Republic of

3 Srpska Krajina, to replenish them from the Rear Bases of the JNA of

4 the 2nd Military District, and for all the expenses of the relocation

5 and replenishment to be covered by the Logistics Bases or the 2nd

6 Military District or the Secretariat of Defence.

7 Q. Sir, is it paragraph 2 which directs the 2nd Military District to

8 replenish or supply the Territorial Defence forces?

9 A. Yes. Point (2) explains that. Do I have to quote it?

10 Q. No, you do not. Is it paragraph (6) that indicates who will bear the

11 cost of supplying these Territorial Defence units?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. This would be the JNA that would bear that cost?

14 A. Yes, through the Logistic Bases because they had certain resources

15 and materiel reserves, and they would cover part of the expenses out

16 of their own budgets and a part from the Defence Department. That was

17 the regular system as it functioned.

18 Q. Sir, if I could have you look at Prosecution Exhibit 159, if that

19 could be put on the elmo again?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You indicated that this order discusses the establishment of

22 Logistics Bases, Territorial Defence Logistics Bases, in Republika

23 Srpska Krajina. Could you please for the court point to the Republika

24 Srpska Krajina area on that map?

25 A. Yes, the Republika Srspka Krajina is coloured in green. It is

Page 1861

1 situated on the territory of the Republic of Croatia. The 405th

2 Logistics Base mentioned in these orders were situated in Knin. Other

3 Bases to which orders are issued for formation, I do not know exactly

4 their locations, but they themselves came for these supplies. Part of

5 the equipment, materiel, was to be put in storage which was to be

6 sealed for UN Nations to be able to inspect them. I personally was in

7 Nova Gradiska, the penitentiary there which was used as storage space

8 for this Logistic Base of the Republika Srspka Krajina.

9 Q. Sir, then the Territorial Defence units that would have been

10 receiving supplies would have been Serb units?

11 A. Yes.

12 MISS HOLLIS: Then if those exhibits, both Prosecution Exhibits 159 and

13 165, could be retrieved and provided to the Registrar, please? (To

14 the witness): Colonel Selak, you mentioned yesterday that Territorial

15 Defence units in Jajce, Mrkonjic Grad and Sipovo received weapons from

16 you. Could you tell us when they got those weapons?

17 A. I cannot remember the date, but it could have been October or

18 November 1991.

19 Q. Do you recall with certainty that it was in 1991?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Other than Jajce, which I believe you mentioned was a mixed

22 Territorial Defence unit, do you know of any other groups that

23 contained non-Serbs that were given weapons by the JNA in the end of

24 1991 or in 1992?

25 A. Weapons were issued in the municipalities, Sipovo, Mrkonjic, Jajce,

Page 1862

1 but in 1992 a delegation of Jajce Serbs came to request weapons from

2 me because they were in danger to defend themselves from Muslims and

3 Croats. I did not give them those weapons because it was a

4 paramilitary formation. I told them that I would accept that people

5 come to my depot in Jajce, that they could put on the uniform and then

6 they would be issued weapons, but then they would have to become a

7 military, to be in the barracks as normal units, as regular units.

8 They refused it and then the polemics ensued with the Corps Commander

9 and they did not get the weapons -- at least not from me.

10 Q. Did you later learn that they had received weapons?

11 A. They all received weapons, all the Serbs who reported to the units,

12 because the strength of the Corps indicated some illogical things, the

13 formation strength and the actual number of people who came for meals,

14 who applied for their rations or weapons indicated that almost all

15 people in that area were armed.

16 Q. Sir, by late spring of 1992, with the exception of, perhaps, Jajce

17 which may have been a mixed unit, the Territorial Defence units who

18 were being given weapons by the JNA were of what ethnic group?

19 A. In '92 those were exclusively Serb formations replenished with Serbs.

20 Q. You have testified that Territorial Defence units that were mobilized

21 were entitled to get weapons from the JNA. In the spring of 1992, did

22 you become aware of any irregularities that were occurring in the

23 call-up of Territorial Defence units?

24 A. Yes, those units made part of the Corps. We in our command of the

25 Base did not know their exact number, composition or deployment. The

Page 1863

1 request for the replenishment in men or weaponry, the Corps submitted

2 to the Base and it was then issued and placed them, issued to people,

3 and they were then placed under their command. Muslims and Croats did

4 no longer come to request them.

5 Q. Do you recall a meeting in April 1992 at which the Chairman of the

6 Municipal Assembly of Donji Vakuf complained of irregularities in the

7 call up of Territorial Defence units?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who attended that meeting?

10 A. A meeting was held, I believe, on April 13th 1992 in the municipality

11 Donji Vakuf in the office of the Mayor, Mr. Kemal Cajic. It was

12 attended also by the Mayor of Bugojno municipality, I believe his name

13 was Vlado Solic, and the meeting was also attended by Colonel

14 Stanislav Galic, the Commander of the 13th Partisan Division of the

15 5th Corps, also attended the meeting with my two assistants.

16 Q. You said that Colonel Galic -----

17 JUDGE STEPHEN: I am sorry, but the answers of the witness, the last two

18 answers, do not seem to relate to mobilization, although your question

19 is irregularities in mobilization.

20 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. I believe he will speak about a complaint

21 about irregularities in mobilization.


23 MISS HOLLIS (To the witness): Colonel Selak, you indicated that Colonel

24 Galic was the Commander of what units?

25 A. 30th Partisan Division of the 5th Corps.

Page 1864

1 Q. At that time did the Chairman of the Municipal Assembly complain to

2 Colonel Galic about irregularities in the call-up of Territorial

3 Defence units?

4 A. Yes. At their meeting, the President of the municipality, Mr.

5 Terzic, said that the Secretariat for National Defence of the

6 Municipal Assembly of Donji Vakuf, headed by a Serb, had taken away

7 the files of the TO unit of Donji Vakuf, that Muslims had not been

8 called up and that that was irregular.

9 Q. Did Colonel Galic have any response to this complaint?

10 A. Yes. Colonel Galic replied that, in fact, only volunteers were

11 reporting, and that his representative had been to the Secretariat for

12 National Defence, and he thought that everything was regular regarding

13 that matter. Terzic repeated again that the Muslims had not been

14 called up because the Serbs had the files.

15 Q. Do you recall Colonel Galic making any statement that Federal

16 directives must be followed?

17 A. Yes, towards the end of his statement Colonel Galic said that Federal

18 regulations needed to be respected and that was why the army was

19 there, to see that the Federal regulations are respected, and that was

20 also the reply regarding the manner of mobilization.

21 Q. What Federal directives was Colonel Galic referring to, if you know?

22 A. He meant the regulations saying that the order for the TO

23 mobilization is issued by the General Staff of the JNA, and there was

24 no further discussion about that.

25 Q. Colonel Galic, was he a regular officer, an active duty officer or a

Page 1865

1 reserve officer?

2 A. Active duty.

3 Q. Do you know his ethnic group?

4 A. Serbia.

5 Q. Where was he from, if you know?

6 A. From the area of Banja Luka in Bosnia.

7 Q. The unit, the 30th Partisan Division, was this an active duty unit or

8 a reserve units?

9 A. A reserve unit formed in '91 and made of active duty officers pulled

10 out from Slovenia and Croatia.

11 Q. So this was a JNA unit?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In addition to the JNA and the Territorial Defence Forces, the court

14 has heard reference made to the militia. Does the word "militia" mean

15 "civilian police"?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Were these civilian police divided into an active and a reserve

18 component?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was the JNA normally responsible for providing weapons, uniforms and

21 equipment to the police?

22 A. No.

23 Q. In 1991 and 1992, did the JNA begin to issue weapons, equipment and

24 uniforms to police units?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1866

1 Q. When did this begin?

2 A. To my knowledge, in the spring of '92.

3 MISS HOLLIS: I would like to have an exhibit marked as the Prosecution

4 exhibit next in line; I believe that would be Prosecution Exhibit 166

5 for identification. This also includes an English translation. For

6 Defence reference, this is document 23. (Exhibit 166 was handed to

7 the witness). (To the witness): Sir, would you please look at this

8 document? Who is this document from?

9 A. The document is from the Commander of the 2nd Military District.

10 Q. What is the date of this document?

11 A. April 24, 1992.

12 Q. In April 1992, what Military District did you belong to?

13 A. The 2nd Military District in Sarajevo.

14 Q. Was the Banja Luka Corps, the 5th Corps, also then a member of the

15 2nd Military District?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is there a person's name and signature that appears on this document,

18 the last page?

19 A. Yes, the document was signed by the Commander of the 2nd Military

20 District, Commander Milutin Kukanjac.

21 Q. Sir, could you tell us very briefly what the subject of this

22 document is?

23 A. The document says that the Commander of the 2nd Military District had

24 received from the Ministry of the Interior of the Serb Republic

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina a request for the transfer of the materiel and

Page 1867

1 equipment for the special police task force at the State Security

2 Centre in Banja Luka. This -- it means the wide range of equipment

3 and materiel from helicopters to armoured vehicles, to heavy duty

4 vehicles, to weapons, from pistols to machine guns, ammunition and

5 explosives, signals, equipment, signalling equipment, sets,

6 instruments, a special -----

7 Q. Colonel Selak, before you continue, please, I would tender this

8 exhibit as Prosecution Exhibit 166.

9 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 166 will be admitted.

11 MISS HOLLIS (To the witness): Colonel Selak, would you please look at

12 page 4 of that document, the second sentence which indicates December

13 of 1992. Is that correct, or would that have been a typographic

14 error? Would that have been December 1991?

15 A. Yes, this is a mistake. It is 30th December 1991.

16 Q. No, do not -----

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Colonel, do not change it. Do not change the

18 exhibit before you, please.

19 THE WITNESS: Oh, no, I will not.

20 MISS HOLLIS: Colonel Selak, at this time of this document and this

21 request, what would have been the ethnic composition of the special

22 police force in Banja Luka?

23 A. A member of it was a Muslim or a Croat. They were exclusively Serb.

24 They could not be in that unit, only the Serbs.

25 Q. Does that document contain a support by the Commander that this

Page 1868

1 request be approved?

2 A. Yes, the last sentence is explicit. It recommends to meet the

3 request notably for things which cannot be obtained on the market and

4 that means weaponry, ammunition and the rest -- that could not be

5 found in the market or, at least, a very small share.

6 Q. Colonel Selak, is there any portion of that document which would

7 enable you to determine how many special police personnel were going

8 to be supplied?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Sir, before you ---

11 A. According -----

12 Q. -- go into that, could you tell us what page you are?

13 A. Page 3.

14 MISS HOLLIS: If that English translation could be put on the overhead?

15 (To the witness): Sir, I am sorry for interrupting. Could you go

16 ahead and tell us how you know the number?

17 A. According to the supplies on page 3, item 64, camouflage uniform, 157

18 pieces. This indicates the strength of the unit ---

19 Q. Colonel Selak -----

20 A. -- because each member had to have a camouflage uniform.

21 Q. Colonel Selak, do you recall in the spring of 1992 supplying any such

22 materials to the police?

23 A. Yes, this was carried out, the orders arrived and we had to comply

24 with them. The Rear Base did not have all these supplies, so only

25 what was available at the Base was supplied. I do not know who

Page 1869

1 supplied the rest.

2 MISS HOLLIS: If that exhibit could be retrieved and provided to the

3 Registrar? (To the witness): Colonel Selak, we have talked a bit

4 about call ups or mobilization of Territorial Defence forces. I would

5 like to ask you some more questions about mobilization. First, I

6 would like to talk about mobilizations of JNA forces, reserve forces,

7 in 1991. In May 1991, do you recall any type of mobilization of

8 forces?

9 A. Yes, when the fighting in Croatia started some time in early May '91,

10 the orders came about partial mobilization of the 5th Corps, an

11 armoured Battalion, that is, was to be mobilized and sent to Kupres

12 south of Banja Luka in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13 Q. Sir, do you know about how many personnel were actually mobilized?

14 A. There were two units mobilized; one, that is Battalion, had about 250

15 men.

16 Q. So there would have been about 500 men mobilized?

17 A. Yes, those two Battalions; one had 250 and the armoured battalion --

18 the battalion's tanks were taken from the secondary military school

19 for armoured mechanized units in order not to use the Brigade,

20 relevant Brigade, of the 5th Corps.

21 Q. Colonel Selak, to your knowledge, these 500 or so men who were

22 mobilized in May 1991, were they ever demobilized after that?

23 A. I do not have that information. I think that the superiors who then

24 sent one of these battalions to Plitvica, one to Kupres and I think

25 they were subordinate to Sarajevo -- they were accountable to Sarajevo

Page 1870

1 directly, because Novi Travnik and that area down there was under

2 direct Sarajevo jurisdiction and this battalion accounted directly to

3 them. It was never demobilized. There was no reason for that. We

4 supplied -- I had formed a Logistics platoon which was sent to Kupres

5 and which supported them.

6 Q. Sir, in addition to this May partial mobilization, were there

7 additional mobilizations in 1991?

8 A. Yes. On September 15th 1991 the mobilization orders arrived to the

9 5th Corps, to the Rear Base, and I think that the rocket Base also

10 received orders for mobilization.

11 Q. Was this mobilization a partial mobilization or was this an order for

12 a full mobilization?

13 A. It was full mobilization.

14 Q. From whom did you receive the order to mobilize the forces?

15 A. From the Commander of the 1st Military District in Belgrade to which

16 we were subordinated at the time.

17 Q. That was in 1991, and you were still a part of the 1st Military

18 District?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What was the stated purpose of this mobilization?

21 A. The purpose of the mobilization was because the Corps was

22 subsequently engaged in the territory of west Slavonia, Dubica,

23 Jasenovac, and that was why the mobilization was carried out.

24 Q. So they would have been mobilized to take part in the fighting in

25 Croatia against Croats?

Page 1871

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you know how many people in your area were mobilized as a result

3 of this order?

4 A. We, I mean, in the Base command to stock all the strength daily

5 because the units were sending in their requests for food and they

6 showed their strength; so that immediately after the initial days of

7 the mobilization the Corps grew from 4500 to over 15,000 men.

8 Q. When these men would be mobilized, did they immediately get weapons?

9 A. Yes, whenever the mobilization would take place the weapons were

10 issued immediately in the first hours after the mobilization. We

11 called it uniting men with arms.

12 Q. Then these mobilized men would keep these weapons until they were

13 demobilized?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When these reserve units were mobilized, did they come under the

16 command of the active duty military?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The Territorial Defence units when they were mobilized, did they come

19 under the command of the active duty military?

20 A. Yes. At the level of Brigade and higher battalions, when there were

21 no active duty officers, then the vacancies were filled with reserve

22 duties, but TO Detachments and Brigades, yes, had active duty.

23 Q. You mentioned a mobilization order you received on 15th September

24 1991. After that date, were you present at a meeting where formation

25 of new light brigades was discussed?

Page 1872

1 A. Yes, I was at a meeting when -- the meeting was chaired by General

2 Adzic, Chief of the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army. The meeting

3 was attended by the Commander of 5th Corps, General Nikola Uzelac,

4 General Raseta from Zagreb of the 5th Military District, several

5 officers of the Knin Corps, and then there were echelons of the

6 command of the Banja Luka Corps and myself as the Commander of the

7 Logistics Base.

8 At the meeting, General Adzic said that so-called light

9 brigades needed to be formed numbering 800 to 1,000 men armed with

10 light infantry weapons, mortars, mines, explosive devices -- they mean

11 mines and bombs -- that these brigades have to be highly mobile and

12 that they would be deployed by the vehicles of the Corps. That was

13 the first official statement about the formation of light brigades,

14 and shortly after that the formation began at an accelerated pace.

15 Q. Colonel Selak, would these be active duty or reserve units?

16 A. As soon as mobilization was over there was no difference between the

17 reserve and active duty. It was a unit like any other, armed,

18 equipped, and while perhaps its training for operations could be

19 questionable.

20 Q. The Commanders of these light brigades, would they be active duty or

21 reserve Commanders?

22 A. As far as I knew, they were all active duty superiors because a large

23 number of officers had arrived from Slovenia and Croatia, so that it

24 was not difficult to fill in commanding posts with these men.

25 Q. Then the weapons for these light brigades would be supplied by the

Page 1873

1 JNA?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. After this meeting you said that these light brigades began to be

4 formed. To your knowledge, were there any such light brigades formed

5 in the Banja Luka area?

6 A. Yes. May I explain?

7 Q. Yes, please.

8 A. Every municipality, every opstina, smaller such as Mrkonjic or Jajce

9 and others, the population of about 10,000 formed one Brigade each;

10 Banja Luka formed four; Prijedor two; Sanski Most two. I think that

11 other places, I am talking about Bosnia and Krajina, I think that

12 other localities had one Brigade each only, and they were all

13 accountable to the 5th Corps.

14 Q. Sir, of the light brigades with which you were familiar, to your

15 knowledge, what was the ethnic composition of these light brigades?

16 A. Serb.

17 Q. Going back again to this 15th September order that you received

18 ordering mobilization, did that order also order you to prepare to

19 store weapons and equipment you would receive from Slovenia and

20 Croatia?

21 A. I do not understand, could you repeat it, please?

22 Q. Yes, I am sorry. You have spoken about receiving an order on 15th

23 September 1991, a mobilization order. Did that order also include

24 instructions for you to prepare to store weapons and equipment you

25 would be receiving from Slovenia and Croatia?

Page 1874

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What types of weapons and equipment did you, in fact, receive from

3 Slovenia and Croatia?

4 A. Slovenia and Croatia, JNA units were pulling out virtually

5 everything, from equipment -- from weaponry to equipment, to computer

6 equipment, to supplies. Up to 40 freight carriages arrived in Banja

7 Luka daily. They were even sending office furniture which came as a

8 surprise. There were also car trains with weaponry and equipment. A

9 major part of that was directly sent both by trains and by road to

10 Serbia Montenegro. I am referring to what arrived to the territory of

11 the Rear Base in Banja Luka, and that we did not have enough storage

12 space.

13 The equipment was received in the open, and at a certain point

14 there was a risk of fire, of explosion, and then it was ordered to

15 send on immediately part of that equipment to Serbia Montenegro, which

16 we did. Some of the equipment the Corps took for itself. We were

17 never able to keep any books about that because the records, the

18 book-keeping, allegedly was done by the Corps. The equipment, of

19 course, had to be controlled to see that it was in working order, the

20 ammunition and my ammunition and weapons specialist did it around the

21 clock. I do not know who else did that.

22 Q. Sir, did you continue to receive such military weapons and equipment

23 until the spring of 1992?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If I understand your testimony correctly, you stored as much of that

Page 1875

1 materiel as you could safely do so in your own storage facilities and

2 then the rest of that materiel you sent on to Serbia and Montenegro?

3 A. Yes, there were other routes. I am referring to the area of

4 responsibility of my Rear Base, but I know that the same thing was

5 done by the Sarajevo Logistics Base with headquarters in Mostar, that

6 there were also transports using maritime routes or railways to

7 Zagreb, Vinkovci, Belgrade.

8 Q. These weapons and equipment that you received and stored, what did

9 you do with this materiel? Did you use it within your area of

10 responsibility?

11 A. Yes, we used them for the regular replenishment of units in the area

12 of responsibility of the Rear Base. After the storage, technical

13 control, if they were in working order, then of course we issued them

14 normally for the replenishment of the units when they applied for

15 them.

16 Q. So as mobilizations were being carried out, they would have been

17 provided with weapons and equipment in part from these stores?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You spoke earlier of a meeting in December 1991 at which General

20 Vidovic talked about the new Yugoslavia. At this same meeting, do

21 you recall General Crmaric briefing that he had supplied 150,000

22 weapons and 200,000 complete sets of uniforms and equipment?

23 A. Yes, Assistant Commander for Logistics was General Crmaric, and in

24 his statement he said that to replenish the units of the 1st Military

25 District which had been mobilized -- they were mobilized in Bosnia,

Page 1876

1 Sarajevo, Banja Luka and in Tuzla, and I believe some units around

2 Novi Sad had also been mobilized -- that they had issued 150,000

3 pieces of small arms and 250,000 uniforms.

4 Q. What was your reaction to this briefing item?

5 A. This came rather as a surprise to me because I knew that the 1st

6 Military District unit had been supplied with weapons and uniforms and

7 equipment, so that those 150,000 and 250,000 uniforms meant that new

8 men had been mobilized for other formations and not only for JNA

9 units.

10 That was the logical conclusion that, perhaps, a certain

11 number of uniforms, perhaps this difference between 150,000 and

12 250,000 uniforms, perhaps it was those who had not responded to

13 mobilization, Muslims and Croats, because uniforms were kept at home.

14 They were issued, those uniforms, and they were kept ought home

15 because of the speed of the mobilization and I thought that, perhaps,

16 250,000 were to fill in up to the number because the Croats and

17 Muslims would respond, but 150,000 pieces of weaponry, that must have

18 meant new men.

19 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, this may be, perhaps, a good point to break?

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, we will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

21 Colonel, speak a little more slowly, if you can, please, because the

22 interpreters have to translate it for us and it is a little difficult

23 for them.

24 THE WITNESS: Of course.


Page 1877

1 (11.34 a.m.)

2 (Adjourned for a short time)

3 (11.55 a.m.)

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, you may proceed.

5 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour. (To the witness): Colonel Selak, in

6 April or May 1992 was there another mobilization in your area?

7 A. (Microphone, please).

8 Q. Sir, would you repeat your answer?

9 A. In April '92 -- I am afraid the question was not clear.

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. Was the mobilization in April '92 that you have asked?

12 Q. Sir, let me state that question again. In April or May 1992, was

13 there another mobilization in your area?

14 A. I cannot remember.

15 Q. All right. In addition to mobilizations, did your area also have an

16 influx of soldiers and officers from outside the area?

17 A. Yes, up to May 15th all soldiers doing their service had to withdraw

18 from JNA units who were born in Serbia or Montenegro. They had to

19 return to Serbia or Montenegro by that date. At the same time,

20 soldiers born in Bosnia-Herzegovina who were doing their service in

21 units of the JNA in Serbia and Montenegro had to come to

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina and to report to units and place themselves at the

23 disposal of JNA units in Bosnia. If that was what you were referring

24 to in your first question, those soldiers did not come to -- did come

25 to units, including my own Base.

Page 1878

1 Q. Sir, in addition to this relocation of personnel, were there also

2 personnel coming into your area from Slovenia and Croatia?

3 A. From Slovenia and Croatia units were coming, both complete units and

4 commanding officers, officers, non-commissioned officers, individually

5 who were pulling out of Slovenia and Croatia and who placed themselves

6 at the disposal of JNA units in Bosnia-Herzegovina, including Banja

7 Luka.

8 Q. As of the beginning of June 1992, how many men were you supporting in

9 your area of responsibility?

10 A. At the beginning of June 1992, the Banja Luka Corps had on its list

11 for meals, for rations, 78,000 and several hundred people. This

12 number does not include two brigades, I think, Skender Vakuf and

13 Sipovo, nor does it include the so-called Doboj group with 15,000 men,

14 and it does not include 22,000 men of the 2nd Corps of the army of the

15 Republika Srspka with the command in Drvar, so the Drvar Corps is not

16 included in that number.

17 Q. If you were to include all of these other units, how many men were

18 you supplying?

19 A. Without the Rear Base, about 120,000, 119,800 and something.

20 Q. 119,000 and something?

21 A. 119,800.

22 Q. I take it that means 119,000 and something?

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Probably close to 120,000 maybe is what you are

24 saying, Colonel Selak?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1879

1 MISS HOLLIS: Colonel Selak, what was the size of a peace time Corps?

2 A. The Banja Luka Corps in peace time, it was called the 5th Corps, in

3 peace time numbered 4,500 men.

4 Q. What was the wartime strength, a typical wartime strength, for the

5 5th Corps in ---

6 A. In peace time?

7 Q. -- wartime?

8 A. Wartime, it covered the area of Bosnian Krajina with the exception of

9 its western part, 80,000 people plus the Doboj group, plus these two

10 opstinas in my estimate a force of about four normal Corps, because

11 the Drvar Corps numbered 22,000 men.

12 Q. Sir, these approximate 120,000 men that you were supplying, these

13 supplies were provided within the military chain of command, is that

14 correct?

15 A. No, under the 5th Corps, later the 1st Krajina Corps, included all

16 these units with the exception of the 2nd Krajina Corps of Drvar which

17 numbered 22,000 men and it was directly subordinated to the Chief of

18 Staff of the Banja Luka, so that the Banja Luka Corps had about

19 100,000.

20 Q. Colonel Selak, I would like to now ask you some questions about

21 paramilitary activity. In your position in the JNA, did you become

22 aware of any paramilitary units operating within your area in either

23 1991 or 1992?

24 A. Yes, we called them "red beret"s because they were wearing red berets

25 on their heads. They were officially called Serb Defence Forces. The

Page 1880

1 command was in the Hotel Bosna in Banja Luka. They were trained at

2 the training grounds of Manjaca. A second military, paramilitary,

3 formation I am aware of was the formation of Milanovic from Prnjavor.

4 They were called "Eagles" or something like that. I saw them in '92

5 at a locality near Prnjavor. They did not look nice at all. They

6 were armed with rifles and knives and they were selling a picture --

7 or they gave the impression of special task forces.

8 Q. Sir, I would like to ask you some questions about these red berets.

9 You indicated they were being trained at Manjaca. Was this at the JNA

10 training area in Manjaca?

11 A. Yes, it was the training area for the training of tank units near

12 Banja Luka.

13 Q. Were they being trained there by JNA personnel?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who was supplying them with weapons, equipment and uniforms?

16 A. I know that the person in charge was Colonel Subotic Bogdan,

17 Assistant Commander of the Educational Centre for Armoured Rear Units.

18 He went there often and we knew that he was the main organiser.

19 Later, he became Minister of the Army of the Republika Srspka. I do

20 not know any other officers personally, but I know they were active

21 duty officers at the training grounds.

22 Q. Sir, Colonel Subotic, he was an active duty officer; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know his ethnic group?

25 A. Serb.

Page 1881

1 Q. Do you know where he was from?

2 A. Bosnia.

3 Q. Were the red berets receiving weapons, equipment and uniforms from

4 the JNA?

5 A. They did not receive them from the Logistics Base of Banja Luka. I

6 believe that they received them from the Corps or from the Educational

7 Centre where Subotic was an Assistant Commander, but not from my unit.

8 Q. When did you first learn that these red berets were being trained at

9 the Manjaca area?

10 A. I heard of that; I was in the office of the Commander of the 5th

11 Corps, General Uzelac, when he was called up by Colonel Subotic and

12 they spoke on the phone. Both of them were due to visit the training

13 grounds to see the training and, from that conversation and the

14 details I heard, I assessed that some units were being trained that

15 certainly did not belong to the 5th Corps.

16 Q. When was it that you heard this conversation?

17 A. This was November '91. At that time and from that conversation,

18 Uzelac asked me later, what was Subotic's name, and so I assessed that

19 the two of them did not know each other and later on they became very

20 intimate and close.

21 Q. Do you recall a briefing you attended in May at which this training

22 of paramilitary units at Manjaca was discussed?

23 A. Yes, at a meeting with the Commander of the 1st Krajina Corps,

24 General Talic, there was talk and Talic said that all paramilitary

25 formations had to go from the training ground -- I think this must

Page 1882

1 have been 28th May -- that all paramilitary formations had to be

2 removed from Manjaca.

3 Q. General Talic at this time had become the Commander of the Banja Luka

4 Corps?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You had mentioned earlier that a detention camp was established at

7 the Manjaca training area. Do you recall a meeting that you attended

8 at which General Talic spoke about establishing this detention camp?

9 A. Yes, this was a meeting with General Talic on June 1st '92 when,

10 among other things, he ordered that all soldiers at the training

11 ground of Manjaca should be armed, and that preparations be carried

12 out for the formation of a prisoner of war camp for 2,000 men.

13 Q. Were taskings given out at that meeting to establish this camp?

14 A. Would you please repeat the question?

15 Q. Why, were any officers tasked at this meeting to carry out any

16 preparations to establish the camp?

17 A. I cannot remember the details. It was the duty of the Chief of Staff

18 of the Corps command and his assistants. I cannot remember the

19 details.

20 Q. Was this meeting at which establishment of the camp was discussed

21 before or after the meeting at which General Talic indicated the

22 paramilitary units must leave Manjaca?

23 A. At the meeting on 28th May, Talic ordered that paramilitary

24 formations had to leave Manjaca. At the time I did not understand

25 why, but probably because of the impending formation of the prisoner

Page 1883

1 of war camp.

2 Q. You said earlier that a Lieutenant Colonel Popovic had been returned

3 to active duty and became the Commander of the camp. Was he on active

4 duty with the military while he was commanding that camp?

5 A. Colonel Bozo Popovic, he was Lieutenant Colonel in retirement. I do

6 not know when the order came for his reactivation, but immediately

7 after formation of the camp he was appointed Commander of that camp.

8 Q. At that time he had been recalled to active duty with the military,

9 is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. To your knowledge, in the spring of 1992, did the paramilitary units

12 in the Banja Luka area come under the command of the military?

13 A. No.

14 Q. I would like to turn now to the subject of the supposed JNA

15 withdrawal from Bosnia-Herzegovina. You indicated that in May 1992

16 officers were to relocate. We have heard testimony that in May 1992

17 the JNA was to withdraw from Bosnia?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you recall a briefing you attended on 18th May 1992 at which the

20 Commander of the Banja Luka Corps briefed that on that date the new

21 army was in place?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. At this 18th May 1992 briefing the Commander of the Banja Luka Corps

24 was General Talic, is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1884

1 Q. During this briefing do you recall a request being discussed, a

2 request by the Serb Krizni Stab or Crisis Staff Committee, for the

3 military to open a corridor to Serbia?

4 A. Yes. At the briefing with General Talic, among other things, the

5 request was made to ensure a corridor for road transport from Banja

6 Luka in the direction of Serbia. That corridor was essential for

7 supplying units of the army of the Republika Srspka, and my Base used

8 it, in particular, for bringing in materiel from Serbia and

9 Montenegro, armaments and equipment, and that is why that corridor was

10 essential. It was the only land connection from western Bosnia in the

11 direction of Serbia.

12 Q. Sir, to your knowledge, did the Commanders at that meeting support

13 that request?

14 A. Fully.

15 Q. After 18th May what had been the JNA was now supposedly two separate

16 armies; is that correct?

17 A. No, on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina or, rather, the Republika

18 Srspka there was only one army, and that was now the army of the

19 Republika Srspka because the Republika Srspka had been officially

20 proclaimed and its army as well. The insignia were changed on the

21 caps.

22 Q. The other part of the JNA that was now in the Federal Republic of

23 Yugoslavia, what was that army now called?

24 A. It was now officially called the army of Yugoslavia, and it had the

25 sign "VJ".

Page 1885

1 Q. The army of Republika Srpska, was the acronym for that army the

2 "VRS"?

3 A. Yes. The army of the Republika Srspka or "VRS" in short.

4 Q. Colonel Selak, when you became an officer in the JNA, did you have to

5 take an oath?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. When you took that oath as an officer in the JNA, to whom did you

8 swear your loyalty?

9 A. To the peoples of Yugoslavia and the Yugoslav People's Army.

10 Q. When this supposed split occurred and the VRS and the VJ emerged, did

11 you take a new oath to the VRS?

12 A. No, on 18th May 1992 when officially the army of the Republika Srpska

13 was proclaimed, on May 20th I submitted a request for retirement.

14 Q. Sir, between that date and the date in July when you left your active

15 duty, between those dates, did you ever take an oath to the VRS?

16 A. No, and I would not.

17 Q. Do you know of any of the officers who had been in the JNA and were

18 now in the VRS who took a new oath of office?

19 A. I have not heard of such an oath. I have not been present. There

20 was some talk about an oath. Nobody tried to ask me to do that. I

21 would not. I know they went to church. Whether they took an oath, I

22 have no information about that.

23 Q. During the time of this requested withdrawal or supposed withdrawal

24 of the JNA, to your knowledge, were there instances where the Bosnian

25 government, the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina, attempted to

Page 1886

1 block the withdrawal of JNA troops or assets?

2 A. In my area of responsibility, some minor attempts of putting up

3 barricades were made, but not -- I know there were some cases in

4 Sarajevo, Tuzla, Mostar -- in Banja Luka this did not happen.

5 Q. In these instances, these attempts to block the withdrawal, why were

6 they doing that? What were they trying to prevent, if you know?

7 A. They tried to prevent the pull out of equipment of the Yugoslav

8 People's Army from Bosnia-Herzegovina for Serbia and Montenegro,

9 equipment and materiel and armaments.

10 Q. Colonel Selak, I would now like to ask you a series of questions

11 dealing with the military both before and after 18th May 1992. First,

12 I would like to talk to you about pay for military members before and

13 after this date. Sir, before 18th May 1992, who paid the active duty

14 component of the JNA?

15 A. The Yugoslav People's Army, the General Staff in Belgrade.

16 Q. To your knowledge, after this date, 18th May 1992, by whom were the

17 active duty military members of the VRS paid?

18 A. Also by the army of Yugoslavia or, rather, by the Federal Government

19 as was called.

20 Q. You are referring to the Federal Government in Belgrade?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Sir, you yourself, by whom are you paid after 18th May of 1992?

23 A. By the Federal Government in Belgrade.

24 Q. Do you recall attending a briefing in June 1992 at which General

25 Djukic said that the Federal Government would continue to finance the

Page 1887

1 VRS as it was on 19th May?

2 A. Yes, at a meeting with the Assistant for Logistics of the Commander

3 of the General Staff of the Republika Srspka -- his name was Djukic

4 Djordje -- also present were Logistics Assistants of the Banja Luka

5 Corps, of the Air Force, of the army of the Republika Srspka, the

6 Chiefs of Staff of Corps and Logistic Bases, and the question was

7 raised of the payment of services, materiel and of officers. General

8 Djukic declared that the Federal Government would continue to finance

9 this army, as he said, with the numerical strength of officers as

10 registered on May 19th 1992.

11 Q. So he indicated at that time that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

12 would continue to pay for the needs of the VRS?

13 A. He explicitly said "this army" thinking of the army of the Republika

14 Srspka to which it belonged, and that pay would be received by the

15 active duty officers as registered on May 19th, as I said.

16 Q. You said that at this time General Djukic was the Assistant for

17 Logistics of the General Staff of the VRS. What had been his prior

18 position?

19 A. General Djukic completed the Military Technical Academy in Zagreb.

20 His last post was Chief of Staff of the Technical Administration of

21 the Yugoslav People's Army in Belgrade.

22 Q. Sir, what was his ethnic group?

23 A. Serb.

24 Q. Where was he from?

25 A. From Glamoc in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 1888

1 Q. Before 18th May 1992, where were your personnel records kept?

2 A. Which records do you have in mind?

3 Q. Your military personnel records.

4 A. My own personal file was in Belgrade in the personnel administration

5 of the Federal Secretariat of National Defence.

6 Q. After 18th May 1992 where was this file kept?

7 A. It remained in the same place where it was before.

8 Q. Sir, you have testified that in 1991 the JNA Logistics organisation

9 was reorganised into 16 Logistics Bases?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that your Base was one such Base?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. That in 1991 you were in the 1st Military District which was

14 headquartered in Belgrade?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And that in 1992 you became part of the 2nd Military District which

17 was headquartered in Sarajevo?

18 A. Yes, as of January 10th 1992.

19 Q. I would like to ask you some questions about your Logistics area of

20 operations and procedures prior to 18th May and after 18th May. You

21 have previously been shown your area of responsibility before 18th

22 May. That was marked as Prosecution Exhibit 161. After 18th May,

23 did your AOR change and become larger?

24 A. Yes.

25 MISS HOLLIS: At this time I would like an exhibit marked as Prosecution

Page 1889

1 Exhibit 167 for identification. For the Defence, this will be map No.

2 2. (Exhibit 167 was handed to the witness) (To the witness): Sir, if

3 you could look at that exhibit.?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Does this exhibit show your area of responsibility as it expanded

6 after 18th May 1992?

7 A. Yes.

8 MISS HOLLIS: I would tender this as Prosecution Exhibit 167.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

10 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 167 will be admitted.

12 MISS HOLLIS: Could that exhibit be put on the projector, please. Sir,

13 looking at this exhibit, is the area within the solid red line your

14 area of responsibility beginning after 18th May 1992?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The towns within this area are towns where you actually delivered

17 supplies?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you point out for us, please, where the expansion of your area

20 of responsibility occurred?

21 A. The expansion of the area of responsibility applies to the eastern

22 part Teslic, Doboj and Modrica.

23 Q. Colonel Selak, this expansion in this area was the result of combat

24 with the military units you supplied and what other ethnic group or

25 groups?

Page 1890

1 A. It was an expansion of military operations of the Banja Luka corps

2 eastward towards Doboj, Modrica and Teslic where operations were being

3 conducted against the Muslims and Croats.

4 Q. I would like to offer the next exhibit in line which would be

5 Prosecution Exhibit 168 for identification. For the Defence this will

6 be document 9 in the order of documents. (Exhibit 168 was handed to

7 the witness).

8 Colonel Selak, is this document an indication of flow chart of

9 your logistics procedures and chain of command before 18th May 1992?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was this document prepared by personnel in the Office of the

12 Prosecutor based upon your instructions?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I would tender that document as Prosecution Exhibit 168.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection?

16 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 168 will be admitted.

18 MISS HOLLIS: If that document could be put on the overhead, please. The

19 document is somewhat daunting when you first look at it. Could you

20 tell us, Colonel Selak, the red lines on the document, do these red

21 lines signify authority or approval in your logistics procedures?

22 A. Yes, from the superior towards the subordinate.

23 Q. Prior to the 18th May that would flow from the JNA General Staff

24 downward, is that correct?

25 A. Yes, down to the level of Brigades, Battalions and Companies.

Page 1891

1 Q. Sir, do the green lines on this document signify the flow of

2 materiels downward to the subordinate units?

3 A. It means the operationalization of supplies from bases of the

4 technical administration, contracting supply to rear bases, to corps,

5 to bases of brigades, and then to battalions and companies. So the

6 setup of the logistic supply.

7 Q. Sir, the blue lines that appear on this flow chart, do those blue

8 lines signify the flow of request for materiel beginning at the lower

9 echelons as the requests move upward?

10 A. Yes, the blue line indicates applications, requests for logistics

11 support from company up to the level to base and army command.

12 JUDGE VOHRAH: Miss Hollis, Colonel Selak said he submitted his

13 resignation on 20th May 1992. This chart was drawn during that period

14 or after 18th May? How long was he in this position after 18th May?

15 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, sir. His testimony, if I could make an offer of proof

16 as to his testimony, will be that he submitted his resignation then.

17 He actually remained in his active duty position until 10th or the

18 middle of July 1992 and his retirement was actually effective 30th

19 September 1992.

20 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.

21 MISS HOLLIS: Colonel Selak, do you, your base, the 993rd base ----

22 A. The 10th July, not June, 10th July.

23 Q. Yes. If I said June I misspoke; it was July. Colonel Selak, your

24 base, the 993rd Rear Base, that is depicted here as the Rear Service

25 Base which is just below the army command?

Page 1892

1 A. Yes. It was the executive body of the army command, the executive

2 body in the logistics sense.

3 Q. The rear service base, that is where you fit, is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Sir, looking at this chart, it appears that requests go -- if you

6 could move that chart down a bit so we could see the top of the chart,

7 please -- it appears that requests will go from your base, looking at

8 my left on the chart, to what are marked as local contracts and

9 contracted suppliers. What types of materiel would you receive from

10 these individuals?

11 A. The Yugoslav Army concluded contracts with companies in Yugoslavia

12 manufacturing different kinds of equipment that it did not manufacture

13 itself. There were annual contracts and longer term contracts from

14 food stuffs to other supplies and even parts of armaments.

15 Q. Colonel Selak, these contracted suppliers, were any of those located

16 in Serbia or Montenegro?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. After 18th May 1992 did you continue to receive supplies from those

19 contracted suppliers located in Serbia or Montenegro?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Looking to my right on the chart it appears that you also make

22 requests to what has been marked "Technical Administration". Could

23 you tell us what type of materiels you would receive through Technical

24 Administration?

25 A. The Technical Administration or the Federal Secretariat for National

Page 1893

1 Defence incorporated as its executive body the Technical

2 Administration base, and through it all the imported materiel and

3 equipment went, that is imported from other countries. That base

4 distributed down to the rear bases of the Yugoslav People's Army as

5 shown here on the chart.

6 Q. Sir, what types of materiel would it be that would be imported?

7 A. All the armaments and equipment not manufactured in Yugoslavia,

8 ammunition for virtually all for the ground forces that was not

9 manufactured in the country and was needed from ground to ground,

10 missiles to other weapons which were not manufactured by the Yugoslav

11 Army and yet were needed by it.

12 Q. Colonel Selak, after 18th May 1992 did you continue to deal with this

13 Technical Administration when you needed such types of materiel?

14 A. Yes, I maintained permanent contact with them.

15 Q. Sir, I believe you indicated earlier that this Technical

16 Administration was located in Serbia and Belgrade?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. After 18th May what change occurred in this flow, this logistics

19 flow, as far as your chain of command was concerned?

20 A. The changes consisted in that requests had now to go through the

21 Chief of Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska which collected

22 information from other bases and other parts, and they were put there

23 and the organisation went through Belgrade for that part of materiel

24 and equipment.

25 Q. Colonel Selak, you would then have been in this rear service base

Page 1894

1 subordinate to what became the VRS?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Sir, in terms of your everyday practical working of the logistics

4 system, were there any changes for you after 18th May 1992?

5 A. The only change was that the command of units and bases was now the

6 main staff of the Republika Srpska in Pale. Otherwise it remained the

7 same.

8 Q. After 18th May 1992 did you have occasion to speak with logistics

9 personnel in the VRS, logistics personnel at higher headquarters

10 levels?

11 A. I talked to General Djukic, Assistant for Logistics.

12 Q. Would you speak with him on the telephone concerning logistics

13 matters?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Sir, if you know, what was the area prefix for his telephone number?

16 A. Area code?

17 Q. Yes, the first three numbers.

18 A. Yes, 011.

19 Q. To your knowledge, that was the area code for what area?

20 A. The area of Belgrade.

21 Q. Now to your knowledge, was he physically located in Belgrade?

22 A. No, he was at Pale in the main staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.

23 Q. Do you have any idea of why then he had this Belgrade prefix for his

24 phone number?

25 A. Some officers had been given direct lines, Belgrade/Pale. There was a

Page 1895

1 link there and it was used in everyday communication because there was

2 a need for direct communication between the Chief of Staff of the Army

3 of Republika Srpska with the Army of Yugoslavia.

4 Q. When you would make these phone calls to General Djukic you would be

5 in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, in Banja Luka.

7 Q. So you would call him by going through a phone number through

8 Belgrade and they would connect you down to him?

9 A. Yes. Yes, his secretary would answer and then she would connect me

10 to his number, to his telephone.

11 Q. I would like to ask you some questions now about the chain of command

12 for logistics. Around the time of the ----

13 JUDGE STEPHEN: Before you leave that chart, would it be possible for the

14 witness to show where on the chart the change took place when the Army

15 of Republika Srpska started giving the direct orders?

16 MISS HOLLIS: Sir, I believe that that will be shown on the chart we have

17 showing the actual chain of command.

18 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

19 MISS HOLLIS: Sir, around the time of this supposed withdrawal of the JNA,

20 what official message was given to Serb officers from outside Bosnia

21 regarding whether they should remain in Bosnia or leave Bosnia?

22 A. The message was that they could leave the Federal Republic of

23 Yugoslavia, but nobody did for practical reasons. If I may, I will

24 explain what those reasons were?

25 Q. Please do.

Page 1896

1 A. A larger number of officers who had withdrawn from Slovenia and

2 Croatia were moving towards Belgrade, towards Yugoslavia, and they

3 were facing housing problems, jobs for their wives or children. The

4 officers who were serving in Bosnia, whereas were born IN Serbia, had

5 their housing problem solved or education of their children and

6 employment for their children. That is they had another motive. In

7 addition to, as I said, fighting for Serbhood they also had practical

8 reasons why they did not go there. They were receiving their pay

9 regularly as if they had been in Yugoslavia and any other fringe

10 benefits such as health insurance and all the rest.

11 Q. What about NCOs, were they being encouraged to leave as well, at

12 least officially encouraged to leave as well?

13 A. The same applied as to the officers. They also stayed.

14 Q. Did they also stay?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I would like to show you what has been marked, should be marked next

17 in line as Prosecution Exhibit 169 for identification. I would ask

18 that it be so marked and provided to the witness. For Defence

19 purposes this is document 10 in the order of documents. (Exhibit 169

20 was handed to the witness).

21 Sir, does that document depict your logistics chain of command

22 prior to 18th May 1992?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I would tender Prosecution Exhibit 169.

25 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

Page 1897

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 169 will be admitted. Is that prior to May

2 18th?

3 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. If that could be put on the overhead

4 projector, please. Sir, if we look at the top of this -- could you

5 move it up just a little bit, please -- prior to 18th May 1992 you

6 would have reported to Major General Ratko Milicevic who was the

7 Assistant Commander for Logistics?

8 A. Yes, Commander of the Second Military District in Sarajevo.

9 Q. From him the chain of command went upward to General Kukanjc who was

10 the Commander of the Second Army?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. From there it went up to the JNA General Staff?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. At that time the Chief of the General Staff was General Adzic?

15 A. Yes, General Blagoje Adzic.

16 Q. General Djukic is here with an arrow towards the Technical

17 Administration, a black. He was head of the Technical Administration

18 at that time?

19 A. Yes, he was the head of the Technical Administration.

20 Q. Sir, when you look at this chain of command at this time, how many of

21 the officers shown on this chain of command are active duty officers?

22 A. All the officers indicated here are active duty officers.

23 Q. When you look at this chain of command now, how many of the officers

24 shown on this chain of command are non-Serbs?

25 A. In this chain of command I am not one and Mujo Camic head of the

Page 1898

1 Technical Service in the rear base. All the others are Serbs.

2 Q. Sir, on this exhibit there appear two red Xs below some names. Do

3 those red Xs signify officers who were either from Serbia or

4 Montenegro?

5 A. Yes, these red markings, two of them indicate that they are Serbs

6 from Serbia or Montenegro and just one red mark is that they are Serbs

7 outside Serbia from Croatia or perhaps Macedonia or I do not know.

8 Q. Now, sir, if you look at this exhibit some of the Serbian officers

9 have no marks under their names, no Xs. Does that signify that those

10 officers, to your knowledge, were from Bosnia?

11 A. Yes, they are Serbs from Bosnia.

12 Q. Now I would like to look at the chain of command after this 18th May

13 date. I would ask that this exhibit be marked Prosecution Exhibit 170

14 for identification and provided to the witness. This would be

15 document 11 in the order of documents. (Exhibit 170 was handed to the

16 witness). If the witness would retain 169, please, and if 170 could

17 now be examined by the witness.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Sir, is this your logistics chain of command after 18th May?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I would tender this document as Prosecution Exhibit 170.

22 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 170 will be admitted.

24 MISS HOLLIS: Could that document please be placed on the elmo and if the

25 witness could be provided Prosecution Exhibit 169 for reference.

Page 1899

1 Sir, looking at this document, your chain of command now goes

2 to the VRS command, is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Under that command now you would be reporting to Major General

5 Djukic; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So then General Djukic has moved down from being the head of

8 technical administration to being the Assistant Commander for

9 Logistics for the VRS?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now this dotted line on the chart, does this signify that there was

12 no formal chain of command between the VRS and the VJ Army?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Sir, looking at this document could you tell us of the officers shown

15 on that document how many officers are active duty officers?

16 A. All of them are active duty officers.

17 Q. Of these officers how many of these officers are non-Serbs?

18 A. The remaining non-Serbs, I am alone, I am the only one.

19 Q. Sir, is that because Lieutenant Colonel Camic has been replaced by

20 Major Spiric?

21 A. Yes, Mujo Camic was replaced and Major Spiric came to head the

22 Technical Service of the command of the logistic base.

23 Q. Sir, looking at this chain of command now after 18th May, after this

24 division of the armies, do the double red Xs again signify officers

25 who are from Serbia or Montenegro?

Page 1900

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you see any single red Xs on this chart?

3 A. Yes, there are Colonel Tapsic and nobody else.

4 Q. That signifies that Colonel Tapsic is a Serb either from Croatia or

5 Slovenia?

6 A. Colonel Tapsic is a Serb from Dvor na Uni in Croatia.

7 Q. Then the other Serb officers under whose name no X appears, these are

8 Bosnian-Serb officers?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Sir, there are dates under the names of some of these officers. What

11 do these dates signify?

12 A. These dates signify until what year they occupied that specific post.

13 MISS HOLLIS: Judge Stephen, did that answer your prior question?

14 JUDGE STEPHEN: Yes, splendidly. Thank you.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have a question regarding Exhibit 169. If you can

16 just put it back or perhaps you can answer this question, Colonel

17 Selak. Are there any non-Serbs on 169 other than yourself?

18 A. There were myself and Lieutenant Colonel Mujo Camic.

19 Q. Both of you do not have a symbol under your name. I see over here to

20 the left, though, General Talic. That would indicate he is a Serb

21 from Bosnia?

22 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: But the only reason I know that, I suppose, is that

24 we have heard testimony about him, so we understand that he is a Serb,

25 but he does not have anything under his name.

Page 1901

1 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour I thought ----

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think you explained it well, except you did not

3 indicate for 169 who was a non-Serb. You did for 170.

4 MISS HOLLIS: I am sorry, your Honour, I thought I had covered that. I

5 apologise.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Maybe you did and I missed it. Thank you.

7 JUDGE VOHRAH: Miss Hollis, how do the rankings of generals here

8 correspond to the rankings of generals in the British or US Army? I

9 see you have Lieutenant General, Colonel General.

10 MISS HOLLIS: Perhaps we could have the witness give the ascending order

11 and then I could, if the Defence has no objection, attempt to answer

12 your question.

13 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.

14 MISS HOLLIS: Colonel Selak, would you please tell us in ascending order,

15 going from the lowest to the highest, the General ranks, the ranks of

16 General within the JNA and then the VRS?

17 A. Army General, I do not think they had one of late.

18 Q. What is the lowest rank of General within the JNA? That is called

19 what?

20 A. Major General.

21 Q. What is the next rank you would achieve as a General?

22 A. Lieutenant General.

23 Q. I am sorry, I did not here that?

24 A. Lieutenant General.

25 Q. What is the next rank?

Page 1902

1 A. Colonel General.

2 Q. Sir, is there a higher rank than that?

3 A. There was Army General, that is a four star General, but there was no

4 Army General during the last 10 years.

5 MISS HOLLIS: Judge Vohrah, I can equate those if the Defence has no

6 objection or we can call evidence on that.

7 JUDGE VOHRAH: That is sufficient. Thank you.

8 JUDGE STEPHEN: I am sorry, that means you go Major General, Lieutenant

9 General, Colonel General, do you, in ascending order?

10 A. Yes.

11 MISS HOLLIS: We have that same anomaly, Judge Stephen, in that we go from

12 a Major General to Lieutenant General, although in the officer ranks a

13 Lieutenant is lower than a Major.

14 At this time could both of those exhibits be returned to the

15 Registrar.

16 THE WITNESS: Should I explain perhaps the structure between Major and

17 Lieutenant? I just heard the question. There are other ranks between

18 Major and Lieutenant.

19 MISS HOLLIS: I know that but I believe Judge Vohrah's question has been

20 answered.

21 JUDGE VOHRAH: Yes, thank you.

22 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, this may be an appropriate time to break.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for lunch until 2.30.

24 (1.04 p.m.)

25 (The court adjourned for lunch)

Page 1903


2 (2.30 p.m.) PRIVATE

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, would you like to resume?

4 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour. (To the witness): Your Honour,

5 prior to the break there was, perhaps, some uncertainty about two

6 exhibits. I would like to have the witness shown both those exhibits

7 and try to clarify that uncertainty.


9 MISS HOLLIS: Could the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibits 169 and 170,

10 please? (To the witness): Sir, if you would look first at

11 Prosecution Exhibit 169, the chain of command of the Logistics system

12 prior to 18th May? We have determined earlier that those individuals

13 with double red Xs under their names are Serb officers from Serbia or

14 Montenegro, and those individuals with a single red X under their

15 names are Serb officers from Croatia or Slovenia. Looking at the

16 officers on this chart that have no Xs under their names, how many of

17 these officers are non-Serbs?

18 A. Among the non-Serb officers there are only two: myself, Colonel

19 Selak, and Chief of the Technical Service Lieutenant Colonel Camic

20 Mujo.

21 Q. If we could put this on the overhead perhaps it would assist the

22 court. Sir, you have indicated that yourself, Colonel Selak, and

23 Lieutenant Colonel Camic are non-Serbs?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I would like to look at the remaining officers who have no X under

Page 1904

1 their names: General Djukic, General Adzic and General Talic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. These are Serb officers, is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All three of these officers are from Bosnia-Herzegovina, is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Sir, if you would look at Prosecution Exhibit 170, if that could be

9 put on the overhead? Again, if you would look only at the officers

10 with no X or double X under their name, how many of those officers are

11 non-Serb?

12 A. I am the only remaining one.

13 Q. Then, sir, looking at the officers with no Xs under their name, that

14 would be General Mladic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. General Djukic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. General Talic, Major Spiric?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Those officers are all Serb officers from Bosnia, is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Those exhibits could be returned to the Registrar.

23 Colonel Selak, I would like now to ask you some questions about combat

24 units within your area. You have previously testified that the Banja

25 Luka corps was located in your area of responsibility. Was that a JNA

Page 1905

1 combat unit?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Prior to 18th May 1992 what other JNA combat units were within your

4 area of responsibility?

5 A. The 5th Corps, the Rocket Brigade, the training centre for armoured

6 and mechanized units. On Mount Kozara, north of Prijedor, there was a

7 radar station. On that same Mount Kozara there was a relay centre of

8 the Signals Regiment from Sarajevo, and the Logistics Base in Banja

9 Luka.

10 Q. Did you also have an Air Force airfield in your area of

11 responsibility?

12 A. Yes, the Mahovljani airfield which was under the command of the Air

13 Force of the Yugoslav Army.

14 Q. Turning first to the Missile Brigade that you spoke of, to what

15 command did this Missile Brigade belong?

16 A. The Missile Brigade was under the direct command of the Commander of

17 the 1st Military District in Belgrade.

18 Q. Then in 1992 when the Military Districts changed, to what command did

19 that Rocket Brigade belong?

20 A. Under the command of the 2nd Military District, Sarajevo.

21 Q. Where was this Missile Brigade headquartered?

22 A. The Missile Brigade was headquartered at the Kozara barracks in Banja

23 Luka.

24 Q. Was this an active duty or a reserve Brigade?

25 A. Active duty officers. It is an A unit, type A.

Page 1906

1 Q. What do you mean by "type A unit"?

2 A. Type A units were combat ready for use within 24 hours.

3 Q. The Commander of this Brigade, if you know, was this an active duty

4 or a reserve officer?

5 A. Active duty officer.

6 Q. And his ethnic group, if you know?

7 A. Serb.

8 Q. Do you know where he was from?

9 A. From Novi Sad, Serbia.

10 Q. What type of missiles did this Brigade have?

11 A. Russian type missiles, Lunar.

12 Q. Are these missiles surface to air missiles or surface to surface

13 missiles?

14 A. Surface to surface missiles.

15 Q. The missiles for this site, where did the missiles themselves come

16 from?

17 A. From the former Soviet Union or Russia.

18 Q. So they would have come in through this Technical Administration

19 branch?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. After 18th May 1992 was that Missile Brigade pulled out of the

22 territory?

23 A. The Missile Brigade had positions in the spring of 1992 in Banija

24 near Glina and Petrinja. Later it returned to the region of Banja

25 Luka. It had a battalion on Mount Vlasic towards Travnik, a battalion

Page 1907

1 east of Banja Luka, 15 kilometres east, and a third in Banja Luka

2 itself, I think.

3 Q. After 18th May 1992 did that Missile Brigade leave your area or did

4 it remain in your area?

5 A. It remained within the region.

6 Q. After 18th May 1992 did the Commander of that Brigade change or

7 remain the same?

8 A. It remained the same.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: May I ask a question, please, just regarding this?

10 How long did that Brigade remain there, if you know?

11 A. It remained for the duration of the war until I had left Banja Luka.

12 It was still in Banja Luka.

13 Q. Was the Commander of the Brigade the same person through that time?

14 A. No, the Commander of the Brigade left in the course of 1993. He went

15 to Belgrade.

16 MISS HOLLIS: Colonel Selak, you said that that Brigade remained in the

17 area until you left Banja Luka. When was it that you left Banja Luka?

18 A. May 18th 1995.

19 Q. You have also mentioned a radar installation on Kozara Mountain; what

20 command was that radar installation in?

21 A. Under the Air Force and anti-aircraft defence.

22 Q. Who was in charge of the Air Force in that area?

23 A. Major General Ninkovic. I do not remember his name.

24 Q. The radar installation itself, would this have been an active duty or

25 a reserve unit?

Page 1908

1 A. Exclusively active duty.

2 Q. General Ninkovic, to your knowledge, was he an active duty officer or

3 a reserve officer?

4 A. Active duty officer.

5 Q. What was his ethnic group?

6 A. Serb.

7 Q. Do you know where he was from?

8 A. From Glamoc, Bosnia-Herzegovina.

9 Q. Do you know who the Commander of the radar installation was?

10 A. I do not know.

11 Q. Concerning the signals radio station on Kozara Mountain, was that an

12 active duty or a reserve unit?

13 A. Active duty units.

14 Q. What command were they in before 18th May 1992?

15 A. Under the signals centre of the command of the 2nd Military District,

16 Sarajevo.

17 Q. Concerning the signals radio station, after 18th May 1992, did they

18 remain in that location?

19 A. Yes, they remained.

20 Q. The radar installation on Kozara Mountain, after 18th May, did it

21 remain in that location?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Concerning the Air Force assets within your area of responsibility,

24 you mentioned the airfield at Mahovljani. Where was Mahovljani in

25 relation to Banja Luka?

Page 1909

1 A. North of Banja Luka, 20 kilometres on the road between Banja Luka and

2 Bosanska Gradiska.

3 Q. When did that airfield open?

4 A. The airfield was officially opened in August 1991.

5 Q. It was supplied with aircraft from where?

6 A. From the Soviet Union or Russia.

7 Q. What type of aircraft did they have at the airfield?

8 A. I know of the type, MIG 19, MIG 21, and I think there was one MIG 25.

9 I have not seen it, I never saw it, but I heard of it. Whether it

10 was permanently stationed at that airfield, I am not sure.

11 Q. These MIG aircraft, were these fighter bomber aircraft?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In addition to the fixed wing aircraft were any helicopters assigned

14 to this airfield?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The airfield itself and the assets at this airfield were JNA assets,

17 is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How was the airfield supplied with munitions, bombs, the aeroplanes?

20 A. The Air Force independently contracted supplies, but I believe this

21 was done through contracts between Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union,

22 and the Air Force directly imported not just aircraft but other

23 equipment for the Air Force from the Soviet Union.

24 Q. This airfield at Mahovljani, where would the bombs for those aircraft

25 have been brought in from?

Page 1910

1 A. From Bihac.

2 Q. That was another airfield there that was a JNA airfield?

3 A. Yes, there was a large airport in Bihac, one of the most modern ones,

4 perhaps the third largest in Europe of its kind.

5 Q. After 18th May 1992, did these Air Force assets remain at Mahovljani

6 air Base?


8 MISS HOLLIS: I am sorry, no, I mean 18th May 1992.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. These Air Force units that had been there, did the units also remain

11 there after 18th May 1992?

12 A. The airfield Base, Mahovljani, operated throughout the war and it is

13 still operating. There were no planes flying, but the Base as a unit

14 remained and they were on standby.

15 Q. You say that there were no planes flying. To your knowledge, did

16 planes from this airfield take part in any attacks on non-Serb areas

17 in Bosnia in 1992?

18 A. Until the no-fly zone was established by the UN, planes did make

19 regular combat flights towards Jajce, Travnik, Kotor Varos, Vitez in

20 central Bosnia, and they acted in combat.

21 Q. Colonel Selak, how did you become aware of their combat activity in

22 these areas?

23 A. Aeroplane bombs and other equipment withdrawn from Bihac was stored

24 in the storage facility of Kremarica near Banja Luka and Kula near

25 Mrkonjic Grad. The guards or the guards of the depots belonged to the

Page 1911

1 Air Force. We gave them vehicles for the transport of bombs to the

2 airfield.

3 Q. After 18th May 1992 did General Ninkovic remain in charge of the Air

4 Force assets?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I would like to ask you some questions about the units within the

7 Banja Luka Corps itself. Before 18th May 1992, what active duty units

8 belonged to the Banja Luka Corps or what was then known as the 5th

9 Corps?

10 A. Active duty units or formation units, as we officially call them,

11 were an Armoured Brigade; a Mechanized Brigade in Prijedor; a

12 Mechanized Brigade in Derventa; the 16th Brigade in the Kozara

13 barracks in Banja Luka; an Engineering Regiment in Banja Luka; a Mixed

14 Artillery Regiment in Banja Luka; a mixed Armoured, Anti-armour

15 Regiment in Banja Luka; a Signals Battalion in Banja Luka; a Military

16 Police Battalion and the Logistics Battalion.

17 Q. Did you have any type of anti-aircraft assets within the Banja Luka

18 Corps?

19 A. Yes, there was an anti-aircraft battalion.

20 Q. That was armed -----

21 A. I forgot to mention it.

22 Q. That was armed with what type of weapons?

23 A. It had anti-aircraft guns and missiles arrow 2M or Strela 2M, of

24 Soviet mix.

25 Q. This mixed Artillery Regiment, where was that located?

Page 1912

1 A. Kozara barracks in Banja Luka.

2 Q. If you know, the Commander of that Regiment, was that person active

3 duty or reserve?

4 A. (The answer was not audibly translated).

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We did not get the translation.

6 A. He was certainly an active duty officer, a Lieutenant Colonel by

7 rank.

8 MISS HOLLIS: If you know, what was his ethnic group?

9 A. Serb.

10 Q. Do you know where he was from?

11 A. I think he was a Montenegrin but he was not a Bosnian, I am sure. He

12 was not from Bosnia.

13 Q. This mixed Anti-armoured Artillery Regiment, where was that located?

14 A. Also at the Kozara barracks.

15 Q. If you know, was the Commander of that Regiment an active duty or a

16 reserve officer?

17 A. He was an active duty officer. I do not know who the Commander was

18 because there were changes quite frequently. I do not know their

19 names.

20 Q. That was an active duty billet, an active duty slot?

21 A. Yes, he was an active duty officer.

22 Q. This Military Police Battalion, where was that located?

23 A. In the Novi Logor barracks in Banja Luka near to the Corps command.

24 Q. If you know, the Commander of that unit, what was the person's ethnic

25 group?

Page 1913

1 A. He was a Serb, a Major by rank. He came from Croatia. I do not know

2 his surname.

3 Q. Was he an active duty or a reserve officer?

4 A. Active duty officer.

5 Q. This Anti-aircraft Battalion, where was that located?

6 A. The Battalion in the Kozara barracks.

7 Q. If you know, the Commander of this Battalion, was this an active duty

8 or a reserve officer?

9 A. Active duty officer.

10 Q. If you know, what was the ethnic group of this officer?

11 A. A Serb, and he also came from Croatia. I do not know his name.

12 Q. The engineering regiment, where was that located?

13 A. The units were located at the Kozara barracks and the engineering

14 equipment of the regiment in the Trn settlement near Banja Luka.

15 Q. The Commander of this regiment, to your knowledge, was this an active

16 duty or a reserve officer?

17 A. Active duty officer.

18 Q. Did you know what was his ethnic group?

19 A. Serb.

20 Q. Do you know where he was from?

21 A. I do, from Bijeljina in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22 Q. To your knowledge, these units we have just spoken about, after 18th

23 May 1992, did any of the Commanders of those units change?

24 A. After May 1992?

25 Q. After 18th May 1992.

Page 1914

1 A. No, not a single Commander was changed in that period.

2 Q. I would like to ask you some questions about the brigades. You

3 indicated that Banja Luka, Derventa and Prijedor had Mechanized

4 Brigades. What types of weaponry would Mechanized Brigades have?

5 A. Mechanized Brigades had infantry, had infantry weapons, including

6 machine guns, mortars, artillery up to 100 millimetres, cannons up to

7 100 millimetres and transport assets, that is, vehicles. That is why

8 they are called "mechanized".

9 Q. You also indicated there was an Armoured Brigade in the 5th Corps.

10 Where was that Armoured Brigade located?

11 A. The Armoured Brigade was in Kozara barracks in Banja Luka.

12 Q. Do you know the numerical designation of that Armoured Brigade?

13 A. 329.

14 Q. Each of these brigades, the Brigade in Banja Luka, all four of these

15 Brigades, to your knowledge, were the commanders of each of these

16 Brigades active duty officers?

17 A. They were all active duty officers.

18 Q. What was the ethnic group of these Commanders?

19 A. Serbs, all of them.

20 Q. To your knowledge, were any of them Serbs from Serbia or Montenegro?

21 A. I believe that Celeketic of the 16th Brigade was from Serbia, and the

22 Missile Brigade Commander, Colonel Obradov, was from Novi Sad.

23 Colonel Arsic, Commander of the 343 Brigade in Prijedor, I am not sure

24 about him, if he is from Serbia or Bosnia, but I still think he comes

25 from Serbia because he spoke a dialect spoken in Serbia, but I am not

Page 1915

1 positive about that.

2 Q. In addition to these active duty units that you have mentioned, by

3 the spring of 1992, would the Banja Luka Corps have had Territorial

4 Defence Forces attached to it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Would it also have had the Light Brigades attached to it?

7 A. Yes, they were all reported to the Corps. It armed them, and they

8 provided logistic support at the Rear Base in Banja Luka.

9 Q. In the spring of 1992, who was in control of military weaponry such

10 as artillery, canons, tanks, rockets?

11 A. As regards artillery, the Corps was in charge; for missiles, the

12 Missiles Brigade supported directly to the command of the Military

13 District in Sarajevo, and after 18th May to the main staff of the army

14 of the Republika Srpska.

15 Q. Who was in control of military fixed wing aircraft and military

16 helicopters?

17 A. General Ninkovic, the Commander of the Air Force, and his superior

18 was General Mladic.

19 Q. Who was in control of military vehicles such as military trucks,

20 armoured personnel carriers?

21 A. Armoured vehicles or combat vehicles, Commander of units, the Corps

22 Commander; motorized vehicles, unit Commanders of the lower rank from

23 Company to Brigade.

24 Q. To your knowledge, by the spring of 1992, had any such weaponry or

25 vehicles been given to any Muslim groups by the JNA?

Page 1916

1 A. No, why should they?

2 Q. After 18th May, did the military remain in control of those weapons

3 and equipment?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When this alleged JNA withdrawal occurred, what was done with the JNA

6 weapons, equipment and supplies in your area?

7 A. The materiel that could not stay in the depots of the Base, because

8 it was in the open, was transported to Serbia and Montenegro. The

9 rest that could be stored under the roof protected remained in storage

10 facilities of the Base or was given to the units.

11 Q. So after 18th May 1992 the VRS took over control of these assets?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When the JNA left Slovenia and Croatia, was it the JNA policy to

14 leave its weapons, equipment and assets to the Croatians or the

15 Slovenes?

16 A. No, the explicit order was that all assets had to be pulled out

17 within the country, that was the official term, that is, to Bosnia,

18 Serbia and Montenegro.

19 Q. Colonel Selak, are you aware of an instance in Croatia where a

20 Commander left his weapons and equipment to the Croats when he and his

21 troops withdrew from the area?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Where did that happen?

24 A. In Varazdin, Croatia.

25 Q. What did he leave behind?

Page 1917

1 A. That is General Vasiljevic, yes. He left the complete Corps in

2 Varazdin, which had tanks and artillery and all other materiel, so

3 that men could leave Varazdin. So that the Corps was taken over by

4 the Croatian army and the troops were set free; some came to Banja

5 Luka, some continued to Serbia and Montenegro.

6 Q. Was any action taken against this Commander for what he did in

7 Croatia?

8 A. Yes, he was brought to trial twice in Belgrade. He and Colonel

9 Popov, Berislav Popov, his deputy, he spent in Banja Luka a short

10 while and was then assigned to Belgrade and they were both convicted.

11 Q. What were the charges against them?

12 A. High treason, that he had surrendered war equipment, war assets to

13 the enemy.

14 Q. Do you know what his term of imprisonment was?

15 A. I think the Commander was sentenced to a term of 12 years of

16 imprisonment. The Defence filed an appeal and there was a very hard

17 debate about the trial in Yugoslavia. I believe the sentence was

18 commuted to eight or nine years. I would not know the details.

19 Q. Colonel Selak, to your knowledge, was any one court martialled for

20 leaving JNA assets in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

21 A. No.

22 Q. To your knowledge, did the newly created VRS pay for any of the

23 weapons, equipment or supplies left by the JNA?

24 A. No.

25 Q. I would like to talk you a bit about the Banja Luka Corps area of

Page 1918

1 responsibility and chain of command.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me, just one moment, Miss Hollis. If I may, I

3 would like to ask the witness a couple of questions. I am not going

4 to comment on that sound. (To the witness): Colonel Selak, from

5 listening to your testimony, it appears that there were a number of

6 brigades and units that were commanded by officers of the JNA, active

7 officers, that is, officers who had active status as opposed to a

8 reserve status, before May, 18th May 1992, and then after May 18th

9 1992 and after May 22nd 1992 they remained in those positions. Is

10 that the gist of the testimony that you have given citing a number of

11 instances?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I asked you about one of them and I asked you if you knew how long

14 that Commander remained in that position and you gave me an answer. I

15 must admit, I do not remember; I think you said through the time that

16 you were there, and that was 1995, December 1995 -- was it?

17 MISS HOLLIS: The witness would have to clarify that, your Honour.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: In any case, you recall the question I asked you

19 about whether you knew how long the Commander remained in that

20 position? Do you recall that question?

21 A. That was the Commander of the Armoured Brigade, Colonel Ratko Simic.

22 He was the Brigade Commander from some time in 1989 until my

23 departure from Banja Luka. He continued as a Commander of that

24 Brigade. I had him in mind.

25 Q. For the other Commanders whom you have mentioned, do you know how

Page 1919

1 long they remained in that position other than the fact that they

2 remained after May 22nd 1992?

3 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, as to some of those we do have an exhibit that

4 will respond to that.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. I was just trying to kind of wrap it up and

6 understand the import of the testimony. Let me ask just one other

7 question: If I understand your testimony this morning then, after the

8 army became the army of the Republika Srspka -- and that would have

9 been May 18th 1992 ---

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- then there was a change in their uniforms; is that correct?

12 A. The uniform remained the same, but the insignia they had on their

13 caps changed. There was a flag, blue/white/red and it first had "JNA"

14 inscribed. After May 18th, this "JNA" letters were removed, and later

15 on they wore on their left shoulder insignia in linen with "VRS"

16 inscribed there, the army of the Republika Srpska.

17 Q. These Commanders, I gather, continued to be paid by the JNA; is that

18 correct -- well, not actually the JNA but the official body that had

19 paid the JNA before?

20 A. Active duty officers were throughout until my departure paid from

21 Banja Luka, and the pensions to those who retired and lived in the

22 Republika Srpska received their pensions from Belgrade, and even I

23 received whatever is due me from Belgrade until December '95.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. I have no additional questions. I am sorry to

25 pre-empt your next exhibit, if that is what you had in mind.

Page 1920

1 MISS HOLLIS: Not at all, but I will move to that as an exhibit to help

2 answer your question, your Honour. If I could have the document that

3 shows the chain of command prior to 18th May? I would ask that this

4 document be marked the next exhibit in line which, I believe, is

5 Prosecution Exhibit 171 for identification. For the benefit of the

6 Defence, this will be document 14 in the order of documents. (Exhibit

7 171 was handed to the witness) (To the witness): If I could ask you

8 to look at that, please?

9 A. Yes,.

10 Q. Colonel Selak, does this document represent the chain of command of

11 the Banja Luka Corps prior to 18th May 1992?

12 A. Yes.

13 MISS HOLLIS: I would tender this as Prosecution Exhibit 171.

14 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 171 will be admitted.

16 MISS HOLLIS: If that could be put on the overhead, please?

17 (To the witness): Sir, as we look at this depiction of the chain of

18 command of the 5th Corps before 18th May 1992, we see then that

19 General Talic is the Commander of the Corps, is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When you look at this chain of command chart that you have before

22 you, how many officers shown on this chart are active duty officers?

23 A. They are all active duty officers.

24 Q. Looking at this chain of command, could you tell us how many of the

25 officers shown on this chain of command are non-Serb officers?

Page 1921

1 A. Only Major Josip Loncar of anti-aircraft defence, and Chief for

2 anti-nuclear, biological and chemical warfare, Lieutenant Colonel

3 Muharem Puskar.

4 Q. I notice in the Corps combat units you have the Commander of the

5 Derventa Brigade as an unknown person; does that mean you did not know

6 his name, you do not remember his name?

7 A. Yes, under -- of the Brigade in Derventa.

8 Q. But it is correct that you do know he was a Serb officer?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. We see for General Talic that his rank is marked as a general. In

11 fact, is that a typographical error that we committed?

12 A. Yes, it was my mistake. He is a Major General.

13 Q. Thank you. Sir, once again looking at this exhibit, the double Xs

14 once again mean that this is an officer from Serbia or Montenegro?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The single X once again means this is a Serb officer from Croatia or

17 Slovenia?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. With the exception of Colonel Arsic, these remaining officers who are

20 Serb officers that have no X under their name, these are Serb officers

21 from Bosnia Herzegovina?

22 A. There is the Commander of the 16th Brigade was Colonel Celeketic,

23 that is a missile unit but it is not part of the 5th Corps.

24 Q. Missile unit, is that the Missile Brigade you are talking about that

25 you testified to earlier?

Page 1922

1 A. Yes. Yes, that is the Missile Brigade which was not under the Corps

2 command, but it was -- I included it in the flow chart not to forget

3 it.

4 Q. This is Colonel Obradov?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. But the Commander of the 16th Mechanized Brigade was part of the 5th

7 Corps, is that correct?

8 A. Yes, it was and still is a part of the 5th Corps. It is now the 1st

9 Krajina Corps.

10 Q. So that if we are looking at this document again, with the exception

11 of Major Loncar, Lieutenant Colonel Puskar, the individuals here who

12 have no X under their names are Serb officers from Bosnia Herzegovina?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. I had said with exception of Colonel Arsic, do you know where Colonel

15 Arsic is from?

16 A. Colonel Arsic, to my knowledge, and his manner of speech, I believe,

17 comes from Serbia because he uses that dialect and the way of

18 pronunciation. That is how we distinguish Serbians, Macedonians,

19 Bosnians and others, but I cannot be positive about that. He is Serb

20 and an active duty officer. I do believe he is from Serbia, but I say

21 this with a reservation.

22 Q. Thank you, sir. I would like to have this document marked as

23 Prosecution Exhibit 172 for identification, please. This would be

24 document 15 in the order of documents. (Exhibit 172 was handed to the

25 witness) Colonel Selak, does this chart indicate the Banja Luka Corps

Page 1923

1 chain of command after 18th May 1992?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Sir, looking at this again, the double red Xs are Serb officers from

4 Serbia and Montenegro?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. The single red Xs are Serb officers from Croatia or Slovenia?

7 A. Yes.

8 MISS HOLLIS: I would tender this document as Prosecution Exhibit 172.

9 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 172 will be admitted.

11 MISS HOLLIS (To the witness): Sir, looking at this document at

12 Prosecution Exhibit 172, how many officers on this document are active

13 duty officers?

14 A. They are all active duty officers.

15 Q. Looking at this document, how many officers are non-Serb officers?

16 A. Only Chief of the Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Warfare -- I am

17 sorry, but the microphone is switched off. We cannot hear the

18 witness.

19 Only Lieutenant Colonel Muharem Puskar, he was there until

20 June 92 when he was replaced and went into retirement.

21 Q. You had mentioned on the earlier chart that Major Loncar was a

22 non-Serb. In this chart who has replaced Major Loncar?

23 A. Lieutenant Colonel Lazarevic.

24 Q. The double Xs indicate that he is from Serbia or Montenegro?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1924

1 Q. Sir, the dates under the names of officers on this chart, what do

2 those dates signify?

3 A. The dates below indicate until when they held those posts. Colonel

4 Stevilovic, Chief of Security in the Corps, was killed on the road

5 between Celinic and Kotor Varos near Banja Luka after being ambushed.

6 Q. This happened in June 1992?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you know who ambushed him?

9 A. On the road Banja Luka/Kotor Varos and on, in the direction of

10 central Bosnia, there were no Muslim units. Colonel Stevilovic was an

11 honest officer who fought against some irregularities in the Corps.

12 There was a roadblock on the road and there were four officers in the

13 car, or two officers and two persons from the security centre in Banja

14 Luka. The official investigation and official press release is that

15 they were Muslims, Muslim armed formations.

16 However, I believe that he was killed by authorities because

17 there had already been an attempt two months earlier on the Banja

18 Luka/Jajce road at so-called Crna Rijeka, and I had drawn his

19 attention that he had to take care of himself but, unfortunately, he

20 was killed.

21 Q. There had been an earlier attempt against Colonel Stevilovic?

22 A. Yes, that earlier attempt two months before he was killed on the

23 Banja Luka/Jajce road at the junction of roads of Mrkonjic. The place

24 is called Crna Rijeka. There was this attempt to liquidate him, and

25 when I heard about that I warned him to take care of himself.

Page 1925

1 Q. This earlier attempt also occurred in an area controlled by the

2 Serbs?

3 A. Yes, controlled by the 5th Corps.

4 Q. These officers, other than Colonel Stevilovic, the dates under their

5 names indicate the dates that they left their units?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Looking at the Serb officers who had no dates under their names, what

8 does that signify, the absence of dates under their names?

9 A. That during my active duty in Banja Luka in the Base they kept their

10 posts.

11 Q. If I could provide another exhibit, please? This will be marked as

12 Prosecution Exhibit 173 for identification, please? If that could be

13 marked and provided to the witness? (Exhibit 173 was handed to the

14 witness) For the Defence, this would be document 16 in the order of

15 documents.

16 Colonel Selak, does this document depict the chain of command

17 from the 5th Corps upwards before 18th May 1992?

18 A. No, this is until May 18th.

19 Q. Yes. Prior to May, to 18th May?

20 A. Yes.

21 MISS HOLLIS: I would tender that exhibit as Prosecution Exhibit 173.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

23 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection, your Honour.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 173 will be admitted.

25 MISS HOLLIS: If that could be put on the overhead, please?

Page 1926

1 (To the witness): Looking at this exhibit then, before 18th May 1992 the

2 5th Corps fell under the second army command in Sarajevo, General

3 Kukanjac?

4 A. Yes, as of 10th January 992.

5 Q. Prior to that, the 5th Corps had belonged to the 1st Military

6 District in Belgrade, is that correct?

7 A. Under the control of the 1st Military District in Belgrade.

8 Q. Then the second army command went to the JNA General Staff under the

9 command of General Adzic before 18th May 1992, is that correct?

10 A. Always the units were under the command of the General Staff, so

11 nothing changed there. The 1st Military District and 2nd Military

12 District were under the command of the Chief of the General Staff,

13 General Blagoje Adzic.

14 Q. Sir, looking at this document the double red Xs under the name of

15 General Kukanjac indicate that he is a Serb officer from Serbia or

16 Montenegro?

17 A. Yes, he is a Serb from Serbia, from Uzice.

18 Q. Sir, General Adzic, is he also a Serbian officer?

19 A. No, Adzic is from Bosnia, Gacko, Herzegovina.

20 Q. Is he a Serb officer, sir?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Both Kukanjac and General Adzic are active duty officers?

23 A. Yes.

24 MISS HOLLIS: I would like to offer another exhibit. This would be

25 Prosecution Exhibit 174 for identification.

Page 1927

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: May I just ask what is the relevance of whether the

2 officer is an active duty officer or a reserve officer?

3 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, the relevance is that, according to the

4 witness's testimony, active duty officers continue to be paid by

5 Belgrade.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: And reserve? We will have an enquiry on that, I

7 gather?



10 MISS HOLLIS (To the witness): I might ask you, Colonel Selak, you

11 indicated that active duty officers were paid by Belgrade even after

12 18th May; reserve officers were paid by whom?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Reserve officers by paid by whom?

15 A. Reserve officers and military conscripts were paid by the government

16 of the Republika Srpska. There was disagreement and dissatisfaction

17 among the officers because the reserve officers were paid far less,

18 something like 50 marks equivalent was the payment of the reserve

19 officer of the rank of Major; whereas an active Major had five or six

20 times that because he was paid by Yugoslavia, and there was

21 dissatisfaction as a result among the men.


23 MISS HOLLIS: At this time I would like to ask that this document be

24 marked Prosecution Exhibit 174 for identification, and provide it to

25 the witness. This would be document 17 in the order of documents.

Page 1928

1 (Exhibit 174 was handed to the witness)

2 (To the witness): Sir, does this document indicate the chain of command

3 from the Banja Luka Corps upwards after 18th May of 1992?

4 A. Yes.

5 MISS HOLLIS: If that could be put on the overhead, please? Your Honour,

6 at this time I would tender Prosecution Exhibit 174.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 174 will be admitted.

10 MISS HOLLIS (To the witness): Sir, looking at this chain of command

11 after 18th May 1992, again the double red Xs indicate a Serb officer

12 from Serbia or Montenegro, is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The officers on this chart, are all three of these officers active

15 duty officers?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. This dotted red line going from the Chief of the General Staff of the

18 VJ army in Belgrade down to the VRS command, does that dotted line

19 indicate that there was no formal chain of command between these two

20 positions?

21 A. Yes, there was no real chain of command because officially the

22 Commander of the army of the Republika Srspka was Colonel General

23 Ratko Mladic. So this is just pro forma because other relations

24 between the Chief of Staff, the main staff of the Yugoslav Army and

25 the main staff of the army of the Republika Srspka were not really

Page 1929

1 existing but, in fact, they did co-ordinate.

2 This line shows direct a direct line of command between

3 Colonel General Ratko Mladic and the 1st Krajina Corps of which the

4 Commander was General Major Momir Talic. At the time he was Major

5 General; now he is Lieutenant General.

6 Q. General Mladic is a Bosnian-Serb officer; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I would like to ask you some questions now about the 5th Corps's area

9 of operations prior to 18th May and after 18th May. I would ask that

10 this document be marked as Prosecution Exhibit 175 for identification.

11 For the Defence reference, this is map 3. (Exhibit 175 was handed to

12 the witness).

13 Is this the area of responsibility for the Banja Luka Corps

14 before 18th May 1992?

15 A. Yes.

16 MISS HOLLIS: I would tender this as Prosecution Exhibit 175.

17 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 175 will be admitted.

19 MISS HOLLIS (To the witness): Looking at this exhibit, the towns that are

20 noted within the area of responsibility, are these the towns to which

21 you have provided Logistics supplies?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You provided Logistics supplies to 5th Corps units within these

24 towns, is that correct?

25 A. Yes, to those regions, not necessarily the units within those towns

Page 1930

1 themselves, but they were on location, on location within those

2 municipalities.

3 Q. So the actual area of responsibility for the 5th Corps could be

4 somewhat broader than these towns?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I noticed that you are providing Logistics support to 5th Corps units

7 in Croatia in Rajic, Pakrac and Nova Gradiska. To your knowledge,

8 were these 5th Corps units in Croatia involved in the combat against

9 the Croats there?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. If I could show you the next Prosecution Exhibit in line which would

12 be Prosecution Exhibit 176 for identification? This will be map 4.

13 (Exhibit 176 was handed to the witness).

14 Colonel Selak, is this the area of responsibility for the 5th

15 Corps as it expanded after 18th May 1992?

16 A. Yes.

17 MISS HOLLIS: I would tender that exhibit as Prosecution Exhibit 176.

18 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 176 will be admitted.

20 MISS HOLLIS: If that could be put on the overhead, please?

21 (To the witness): Colonel Selak, I notice that on this exhibit there are

22 no longer any units in Croatia. The 5th Corps which is, I see now,

23 the 1st Krajina Corps, had those units been withdrawn from Croatia at

24 this time?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1931

1 Q. Could you show us, please, the area where the 5th Corps's area of

2 responsibility expanded after 18th May 1992?

3 A. The area of responsibility expanded towards the towns of Teslic,

4 Doboj, Modrica, Bosanski Brod, east of Banja Luka.

5 Q. This expansion was the result of combat against what ethnic groups in

6 those areas?

7 A. Against Muslims and Croats.

8 MISS HOLLIS: I would ask that that exhibit be retrieved and provided to

9 the Registrar. (To the witness): Sir, I would like to ask you some

10 questions about combat activities and authorisations for combat within

11 the JNA. Within the JNA, what authorisations were necessary to commit

12 military units to combat?

13 A. The state of war could be proclaimed only by the Assembly of the SFRY

14 and if it cannot meet, then the presidency of SFRY. That is the only

15 body authorised to proclaim a state of emergency -- a state of war,

16 sorry.

17 Q. Once a state of war is proclaimed, who has the authority to actually

18 commit military units to combat in the JNA?

19 A. According to war plans, the Chief Staff of the Yugoslav People's

20 Army, the General Staff of the Yugoslav People's Army.

21 Q. That order would then flow down to the subordinate units who were to

22 execute that order?

23 A. The order would go down to the army command, and each army command

24 would issue orders regulating the tasks of subordinate units and he

25 would pass on only those orders that applied to that unit.

Page 1932

1 Q. What would happen to a combat unit commander who committed his units

2 to combat without receiving the appropriate authorisations?

3 A. He would immediately be replaced and tried by a military Tribunal.

4 Q. If such action were taken against a combat Commander, would such

5 action become known?

6 A. I think, yes.

7 Q. Prior to 18th May 1992, to your knowledge, did any of the combat

8 units within the 5th Corps area of responsibility take part in attacks

9 on non-Serbs?

10 A. Up to May 18th?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Where did that occur?

14 A. It occurred, the Corps was executing combat operations on Croatian

15 territory in Pakrac, Lipik, Nova Gradiska near Jasenovac, west of

16 Pakrac and Lipik.

17 Q. Prior to 18th May 1992, to your knowledge, did JNA units within the

18 5th Corps area of responsibility take part in attacks on non-Serb

19 areas in Bosnia Herzegovina?

20 A. Yes, in the area of Kupres.

21 Q. That area is located where?

22 A. That area is south of Banja Luka, about 120 kilometres on the road

23 Banja Luka/Split.

24 Q. Against what ethnic groups would the Corps have been involved in

25 combat?

Page 1933

1 A. Against Croats and Muslims.

2 Q. Colonel Selak, on or after 18th May 1992, to your knowledge, did

3 military units in the 5th Corps have any involvement in attacks on

4 non-Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Where?

7 A. Let me first mention Kozarac near Prijedor.

8 Q. What units were involved in the attack on Kozarac?

9 A. It is the area of responsibility of the 1st Krajina Corps of Banja

10 Luka, it is Motorized Brigade 364 from Prijedor, Light Brigades from

11 Sanski Most and Bosanski Dubica were directly engaged in combat near

12 Prijedor or, rather, in Kozarac.

13 Q. Just now you mentioned a Motorized Brigade 364 from Prijedor. You

14 had earlier mentioned the 3 ----

15 A. 343, 343.

16 Q. That is a Mechanized Brigade?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Sir, how did you learn that these units were involved in the attack

19 on Kozarac?

20 A. We supplied those units with food, ammunition and, therefore, I was

21 familiar with the units that were in those positions which we supplied

22 with food and ammunition.

23 Q. Do you recall on 27th May being present at a briefing at which the

24 attack on Kozarac was discussed?

25 A. Yes, we had to report to the Commander of the 1st Krajina Corps in

Page 1934

1 Nova Gradiska, in the building of the penitentiary in Croatia when

2 Colonel Marcetic, Dragan, Chief of the educational body of the Corps

3 command and who was on duty for that day in the Corps, and he informed

4 the Corps Commander, General Talic, that on that day 800 people had

5 been killed or, rather, died in Kozarac and that 1,200 had been

6 captured. There was a minor incident that occurred in connection with

7 that report because I was the only Muslim present at the meeting and

8 in Kozarac there were only Muslims.

9 Q. What was this incident that occurred?

10 A. General Talic heard the report on the killed number of casualties.

11 Subconsciously, he looked at me and asked Colonel Marcetic: "I

12 suppose you mean 80 people, and put that down in the report".

13 Unfortunately, the fact is that on that day more than 2,000 Muslims

14 were killed in Kozarac.

15 Q. Now when the Colonel -----

16 JUDGE STEPHEN: You might note it says "807" rather than "80".

17 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. (To the witness): Colonel Selak, when

18 you testified you indicated that General Talic said to Colonel

19 Marcetic: "I suppose you mean 80 people"; is that correct?

20 A. 80, 80, and that he should put that in the report.

21 Q. When Colonel Marcetic was giving his report, did he also report on

22 soldiers who were injured or killed on that date?

23 A. Yes, I think he said four soldiers had been killed and 15 soldiers

24 injured.

25 Q. Did you hear any discussion on that date about the direct involvement

Page 1935

1 of the 343rd Brigade in that attack?

2 A. No, there was no discussion because it was known which units were

3 located there. We knew that it was the area of responsibility of the

4 Mechanized Unit and the Brigades attached for that particular

5 assignment.

6 Q. Sir, if tanks and APCs were involved in the attack on Kozarac on this

7 date in May, who would have had control over those tanks and APCs?

8 A. The leader of the assignment had to be a Mechanized Brigade. A part

9 of those units were near Bosanska Gradiska on duty in facing Croatia,

10 but the bulk of the forces of that Brigade and this combat Brigade

11 were in Prijedor or, rather, Kozarac. Kozarac belongs to the Local

12 Commune of Prijedor.

13 Q. So those tanks and APCs would have been under the control of the

14 military of the VRS?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. If artillery or cannon were used against Kozarac, who would have been

17 in control of those artillery or cannon?

18 A. A direct Commander of the combat units was Major Zeljaja Radmilo who,

19 after the capture of Kozarac, the Serbs renamed it to "Radmilovo"

20 after Major Radmilo Zeljaja, in his honour.

21 Q. Major Zeljaja was an active duty or a reserve officer?

22 A. Active duty officer.

23 Q. What was his ethnic group?

24 A. Serb.

25 Q. Do you know where he was from?

Page 1936

1 A. I think he is from Bosnia.

2 Q. Sir, I believe you indicated earlier that Colonel Arsic was the

3 Commander of the 343rd Brigade, is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. He was an active duty officer?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So at the time of this attack on Kozarac both he and Major Zeljaja

8 would have been receiving their pay from Belgrade?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Colonel Selak, in order for the 343rd to have been committed to

11 combat in the Kozarac area from whom would they have had to receive

12 approval?

13 A. Exclusively from the Corps Commander and no-one else; only the Corps

14 Commander could order the use of brigades.

15 Q. That would at that time have been General Talic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. As an active duty officer, General Talic at that time would have been

18 receiving pay from Belgrade, is that correct?

19 A. Yes -- he is still receiving it.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, if you are going to move into another

21 area, would you help me and put on either the elmo or the overhead

22 projector the exhibit that showed those officers, the three officers,

23 please, and the connection in terms of the logistic contribution? I

24 think it may have been -- I thought it was 174, but it is before then.

25 MISS HOLLIS: You want the 5th Corps chain of command after 18th May?

Page 1937

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No, not the 5th Corps chain of command, that I have.

2 It is the 5th Corps and then Mladic, and above that, that is the

3 dotted line. That is 174. But there should be one before that that

4 would show all of these people -- no?

5 MISS HOLLIS: There is a 5th Corps chain of command before which would

6 show General Talic ---


8 MISS HOLLIS: -- would show Colonel Arsic; it did not show Major Zeljaja

9 who was a subordinate to Colonel Arsic.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What exhibit is that?

11 MISS HOLLIS: The one that shows the chain of command after 18th May is

12 172.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: May I see that, please?

14 MISS HOLLIS: Yes. (Exhibit 172 was handed to the witness). If you

15 could show the top of it showing General Talic?

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Now what we are talking about now is the attack on

17 Kozarac. At that time you say that the Major would have been -- well,

18 you go ahead and ask the questions and see if you can locate the

19 people.

20 MISS HOLLIS: Certainly. (To the witness): You have indicated that the

21 Commander of the 343rd Brigade at that time was Colonel Arsic, is that

22 correct? Could the exhibit be moved up so that that is shown. This

23 here says the 43rd Mechanized Brigade. Is that different than the

24 343rd?

25 A. Yes, the figure "3" was removed; I do not know for what reason. It

Page 1938

1 is the same Brigade. Just one number is missing, 3, 343; I do not

2 know for what reason, but that is how it was.

3 Q. The Commander of this Brigade at the time of the attack on Kozarac

4 was Colonel Arsic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Major Zeljaja, what was his position at that time?

7 A. He was Chief of Staff and Deputy Brigade Commander.

8 Q. To Colonel Arsic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. All right. On this chain of command, I note that there are arrows

11 going from the combat units around the side here of the exhibit and up

12 to General Talic. Does this indicate that General Talic would have

13 direct chain of command authority over the combat commands?

14 A. It would have been arbitrariness if Colonel Arsic were to commit the

15 unit without the knowledge and approval of his superior Commander, so

16 that General Talic certainly knew and approved the commitment of these

17 brigades.

18 Q. So let me try to make my question more clear: Would you look at

19 this exhibit, please, and you see the arrows going from General Talic

20 down directly to the Corps combat units? Does this signify that for

21 operational matters these combat units went directly to General Talic

22 in the chain of command?

23 A. Yes. Yes, let me clarify. The Corps command plans combat operations

24 on the basis of the ideas of the Corps command. When they planned

25 those combat operations, the Commander takes a decision on the

Page 1939

1 commitment of units and he alone can order the commitment of units.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Both of those gentlemen are Bosnian Serbs, is that

3 correct, if I understand your exhibit correctly?

4 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I believe the testimony was he thinks that

5 Colonel Arsic is from Serbia, but it was not marked that way because

6 he is not sure of that.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: He just says the accent makes him believe that he is

8 from Serbia?

9 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. However, General Talic is a Bosnian Serb.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Were both of those officers active officers before

11 May 18th 1992?

12 MISS HOLLIS: Before?



15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Were they active officers after May 18th 1992?


17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That means, according to your testimony, they

18 received their pay from Belgrade, is that correct?

19 A. Yes. I am quite sure because I myself received my pension from

20 Belgrade until May last year, and all other officers living in Banja

21 Luka received our pensions from Belgrade; just as the same pension

22 that a Colonel had in Belgrade, I had in Banja Luka.

23 MISS HOLLIS: Judge McDonald, does that answer your question?

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, it does. I apologise for interrupting but it

25 is important for me to understand it now rather than having to go back

Page 1940

1 and look at all the exhibits without the Colonel with me. So we will

2 stand in recess for 20 minutes.

3 (4.02 p.m.)

4 (Adjourned for a short time)

5 (4.30 p.m.)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, would you like to continue, please?

7 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour. (To the witness): Colonel Selak,

8 before the break we were talking about 27th May meeting at which the

9 attack on Kozarac was discussed?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. After that meeting do you recall General Talic making a comment that

12 Muslims were dying because of Croats?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When was that comment made, if you remember?

15 A. It was during a meeting when General Talic heard a report of Colonel

16 Dragan Blaskic about the casualties in Kozarac, about people being

17 killed. He said that Muslims were dying because of the Croats and

18 their policy towards the Serbs. I cannot remember the details, but

19 the gist of it was that the Muslims were dying because of the Croats,

20 because they had sided with the Croats.

21 Q. Because the Muslims had sided with the Croats?

22 A. Yes, that was the meaning.

23 Q. Colonel Selak, we have spoken before about your leaving your active

24 duties in mid-July 1992, and that was because of your retirement, is

25 that correct?

Page 1941

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who actually approved your retirement?

3 A. The order, my retirement was signed by the Ministry of National

4 Defence of the army of Yugoslavia.

5 MISS HOLLIS: If I could ask that the next exhibit in line be marked as

6 Prosecution Exhibit 177 for identification? For Defence purposes,

7 this would be document 7. (Exhibit 177 was handed to the witness).

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, Mr. Wladimiroff?

9 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Your Honour, could we have the Yugoslav text on the elmo

10 while the witness is identifying it so also our client can see it?

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. Is there any problem with that, Miss Hollis?

12 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour.


14 MISS HOLLIS: I do note, your Honour, that this exhibit is both in

15 Serbo-Croatian and with an English translation.

16 (To the witness): Colonel Selak, what is this document?

17 A. This is the order No. 6-114 of the Ministry of the Defence of the

18 army of Yugoslavia of 30th June '92 on the termination of my active

19 duty.

20 Q. The Minister of the Defence of the army of Yugoslavia, is this the

21 army located in Belgrade or is this the VRS?

22 A. The army from Belgrade, the army of Yugoslavia.

23 Q. What is the effective date of the termination of your service?

24 A. 30th September 1992.

25 MISS HOLLIS: At this time I would tender Prosecution Exhibit 177.

Page 1942

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

2 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection, your Honour.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 177 will be admitted.

4 MISS HOLLIS (To the witness): So then, Colonel Selak, you were, in

5 effect, retired from the army of Yugoslavia, is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. This document indicates that your service actually terminated on 30th

8 September 1992. You have indicated that you left your active duty

9 position about 10th July 1992. What was your status between 10th July

10 and 30th September?

11 A. I was on holidays for three months. It was supposed to start on 1st

12 July, but there was nobody to replace me, and then Colonel Skondric

13 came with the order that he was taking over the post from me and that

14 was on 10th July '92. I merely came to the office from time to time

15 until Colonel Skondric replaced me.

16 Q. So this period of leave between relinquishing your active duty

17 position and your retirement, was this a normal procedure in the

18 military?

19 A. Yes, before the regular retirement, every army officer was entitled

20 to three months of leave plus a month of leave for the current year,

21 so that one could have four months at a stretch.

22 Q. You indicated you were replaced by an officer, Colonel Skondric, I

23 believe you said?

24 A. Yes. Milan Skondric.

25 Q. This officer was an active duty or a reserve officer?

Page 1943

1 A. Active duty.

2 Q. What was his ethnic group?

3 A. Serb.

4 Q. You know where he was from?

5 A. Sanski Most, Bosnia-Herzegovina.

6 Q. Sir, after you retired did you at some point begin to receive

7 retirement pay?

8 A. The retirement pay began on November 1st because until I was -- until

9 that time I received my salary and the first retirement pay arrived on

10 November 1st.

11 Q. Where did you your retirement pay come from?

12 A. From Belgrade.

13 MISS HOLLIS: I would like to have this document marked as Prosecution

14 Exhibit 178 for identification and this would be document 9. (Exhibit

15 178 was handed to the witness)

16 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Could we have that on the elmo too, please?

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think all the exhibits you plan to offer, put the

18 Serbian on the elmo so that you do not have to hand it back to Mr.

19 Tadic. That may be your only copy, I suppose. You will do that, will

20 you, Miss Hollis?

21 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.


23 MISS HOLLIS: Perhaps the Defence could tell us -- I think it is a

24 two-page document -- if you want the second page on and when. (To the

25 witness): Colonel Selak, what is this document?

Page 1944

1 A. This is the ruling of the Social -- Military Social Insurance

2 Administration of the army of Yugoslavia.

3 Q. That is located where?

4 A. Belgrade.

5 Q. This was the determination that determined how much retirement pay

6 you would be entitled to?

7 A. Yes, it says on what grounds I was retired, what pay category and all

8 the elements taken into consideration when determining the amount of

9 my pension.

10 MISS HOLLIS: I tender this exhibit as Prosecution Exhibit 178.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection?

12 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 178 will be admitted.

14 MISS HOLLIS (To the witness): So that your retirement pay was determined

15 by the Federal Secretariat for National Defence, is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Located in Belgrade?

18 A. Yes, Proleterskih brigada Street, No. 13.

19 Q. Thank you. If that exhibit then could be returned to the Registrar?

20 Colonel Selak, in July or August 1992 after you relinquished your

21 position as Commander of the 14th Logistics Base, did you become a

22 member of a Muslim resistance group?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What was your role in the group?

25 A. As a Commander.

Page 1945

1 Q. Did you ever take up arms against the Serbs?

2 A. No.

3 Q. What were the type of actions that you determined that your group

4 would take to assist Muslims in the area?

5 A. All but armed resistance because it was our belief that a massacre of

6 the Muslim people would occur, like the one in Kozarac, because

7 mosques and other objects had been mined during 15 to -- within 15 or

8 20 days. They wanted the Muslims to offer an armed resistance so that

9 a massacre could take place, and we were against armed resistance in

10 Banja Luka.

11 Q. Sir, are you saying were you against "armoured" or "armed"

12 resistance?

13 A. Armed resistance.

14 Q. After you retired from the military, were you allowed to leave Banja

15 Luka?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Who informed you that you could not leave?

18 A. General Talic with whom -- who was a good friend of mind before that,

19 invited me in August '92 to his office and informed me that not to

20 think about moving away, moving out, but that nobody would lay a

21 finger on me. I asked him about military authorities. I said,

22 "Military authorities, all right, but what about the police, what

23 about the SDS?" and he said: "I cannot guarantee that, but the army

24 will not lay a finger on you".

25 Q. Did he tell you why you would not be allowed to leave the area?

Page 1946

1 A. No, he did not why, but I got the message.

2 Q. What was the message?

3 A. I thought that he thought that I would join the army of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina and prevented that.

5 Q. Sir, I believe you indicated that you eventually left Banja Luka in

6 1995, is that correct?

7 A. Yes, on May 18th.

8 Q. Did you have to make any type of arrangements or payments in order to

9 leave Banja Luka at that time?

10 A. My wife was gravely ill and she had to have a colon operated for a

11 tumour. The doctors behaved very correctly. They were all Serbs. It

12 took place in 94, but in 95 her health deteriorated. The tumour was a

13 malignant one and the team of physicians in Banja Luka clinical

14 centre issued a recommendation for her treatment in Belgrade.

15 However, Colonel Manjanovic, doctor, head of the Medical Corps

16 in Banja Luka, did not want to drive her, and because of that I

17 telephoned to some military commanders asking for help, and they did

18 not want to. I paid 2,800 marks to two Serbs to take me to Belgrade

19 in their car. I spent 14 days in Belgrade asking for permission to go

20 to Germany. The German Embassy issued an entry visa to me and only

21 after 14 days was I given the permission to leave Yugoslavia because

22 my son has sent guarantee, so I went my wife to Germany where she

23 underwent an operation.

24 Q. Sir, what was the result of that operation?

25 A. Death.

Page 1947

1 MISS HOLLIS: We have no further questions of the witness.


3 Cross-examined by MR. KAY

4 Q. Colonel Selak, I am going to ask you some questions on an entirely

5 different matter. The first thing I would like you to look at is

6 something that you may be familiar with and that is a military book.

7 Mr. Usher, could you hand this to the witness, please? There is a

8 military book. If you look inside the front cover you will see it is

9 in the name of "Dusko Tadic"?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I can take it, Colonel, that you are familiar with documents such as

12 these, is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. KAY: Your Honour, this document comes from the Prosecution and copies

15 have been made so that we may have a look at it together. If I can

16 ask Mr. Bos or Mr. Usher to -----

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You wish to offer this and there will be no

18 objection, I gather, as to authenticity or will there be, you tell me.

19 MR. KAY: There will not be any objection.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If you wish to offer it, what number will that be?

21 MR. KAY: Defence 7.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, what is your position regarding this

23 military book?

24 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, we would certainly have no objection to its

25 authenticity. To the extent this is beyond the scope of direct

Page 1948

1 examination, we would not object to allowing it to happen because of

2 time for this witness. He would not have to be recalled. So to the

3 extent this may go beyond direct, we have no objection to that either.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The bottom line, regardless of whether it is beyond

5 or not, there is no objection. If you wish to offer it, then I gather

6 no objection.

7 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, there is no objection. This may be Defence

8 Exhibit 8.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, I made a mistake. I said 7 and I did not have

10 a list before me; it was just my memory which is not the best. Are

11 you offering then Defence Exhibit 8 and let us have an identification

12 of it for the record, please? There is no objection and it will be

13 admitted.

14 MR. KAY: It is the military book of Dusko Tadic. Perhaps a copy could be

15 put before the witness so that I may have the original back with me?

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Actually, Miss Hollis, I do not know that I could

17 rule as to whether it was beyond cross (sic) until I understand what

18 is in it.

19 MISS HOLLIS: Exactly, your Honour. I simply wanted to make it clear that

20 to the extent it was beyond direct, we would not object.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Beyond direct, excuse me, yes. Very good. It is

22 admitted then.

23 MR. KAY (To the witness): Perhaps if we look at the second page in our

24 bundle -- everyone has copies now -- and it records Mr. Tadic's name

25 with his photograph, is that correct, Colonel?

Page 1949

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. This is the military book that is issued or was issued in the former

3 Yugoslavia to those who were called up for military service, is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes. The witness's microphone is off.

6 Q. The witness's microphone is off, I have been told. The pages have

7 been photocopied here, perhaps slightly out of sequence, but we see

8 his date of birth recorded originally as 1st September 1955 and an

9 amendment has taken place recording it as 1st October, is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In the place of Kozarac, the opstina of Prijedor and in

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Dates are recorded, 19th February, I think it is 1975 but there is a

16 stamp obscuring it on the inside.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. On the right-hand side of this page in section 1 there is a date that

19 is recorded of, I believe it is, 14th October 1976 in the left-hand

20 stamp, and in the right hand stamp in that section 1, 28th February

21 1977. Can you see that, Colonel?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. On the original before me these are stamps that have been signed.

24 Perhaps you could tell us what information would be recorded here

25 within the military book?

Page 1950

1 A. These -- this is information about the period of service in the

2 Yugoslav People's Army from 1976 to 1977.

3 Q. Every conscript who undertakes this kind of service would have these

4 stamps put in their military book?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. In section 2 beneath that, we have a stamp with a date in

7 the left-hand stamp of 1st March 1977 to 28th November 1977, and again

8 both stamps have been signed. Would this record, similarly, military

9 service during those periods of time?

10 A. I am not sure. I do not know. Perhaps he was ill and then was

11 discharged, because here is one year of military service. I do not

12 know what happened. Perhaps he was attending a drill or a training as

13 a military. I am not sure. I am not sure what this means.

14 Q. The period of time we are dealing with there, however, is 1977?

15 A. It is four months.

16 Q. Turning to the next page in our bundle at the top of the page, which

17 is recorded as page 5 and column 5, in that first box there with the

18 date of 19th October 1973, a stamp with a signature, again what

19 information would be recorded here in the military book?

20 A. This is the information about the time when he was drafted for

21 regular military service, and it says "fit for military service" and a

22 signature of the relevant authority, and a stamp, it was with

23 headquarters in Banja Luka for the Secretariat for National Defence

24 authorised for these things.

25 Q. Thank you. On that same page, which is a different page in the book,

Page 1951

1 however, we see on section 7 again a stamp, there is not in fact a

2 date with it, but there is the word "radio-mekanicar", and a number.

3 What would that indicate, Colonel?

4 A. It means that he was drafted for technical service, radio mechanic.

5 I see this figure here, something 28, this would be, this is the

6 special branch, the speciality. That is how it is coded in the army

7 for radio mechanics.

8 Q. Let us move on to the next page and, in fact, we have no stamps

9 there. These pages, Colonel, which are without stamp, what would be

10 the kind of information that would normally be recorded, perhaps

11 taking the left-hand section first on page 10?

12 A. It is in French.

13 Q. Perhaps someone could assist the witness and put the right channel

14 on? I know the feeling! I will repeat the question. Page 10. There

15 we have a succession of blank pages. Have you got it there? It is a

16 blank sheet page?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What kind of information would be recorded on the top left-hand

19 section on page 10 of the book?

20 A. Soldier of the completion of military service, it is a wartime

21 assignment in JNA units or TO units, and every unit has training or

22 drills of the reserve troops from time to time; and whenever a person

23 is called up it needs to be recorded, the dates from when until then a

24 person underwent an exercise, and then the signature of the Commander

25 of the unit of the reserve force.

Page 1952

1 Q. Thank you. So, if you undertake training within the TO or the JNA,

2 this information would be recorded on this page in the military book?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Looking at the next section, still on that page, however, Colonel ---

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. -- if you can remain on the same page because, in fact, there is a

7 different heading on pages 12 and 13, "Vojna Vezba". What kind of

8 information would be recorded on this page?

9 A. I see here first -- oh, you mean No. 10? Yes, this is the wartime

10 assignment in State Security station in Prijedor.

11 Q. You have actually jumped ahead of us, Colonel. If I can stop you

12 there and take you back to the previous page which was where my -- if

13 you just follow me through the pages rather than turning ahead, we

14 will arrive at the same place, hopefully. Turn over that page.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Turn over that page. Have you got a blank page there showing pages

17 12 and 13 of the book?

18 A. 10, 12 and 13, yes.

19 Q. Perhaps if you could hand it to me?

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The pages are on the bottom, Colonel, do you see

21 these numbers?

22 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do, I see.

23 MR. KAY: That is fine.

24 A. Sorry, a mistake.

25 Q. We have been in French and we have got lost and now we are,

Page 1953

1 hopefully, in the right place. Please do not turn over the pages

2 until I say, otherwise we will get lost. Can you see "Vojna Vezba"

3 there on pages 12 and 13 as they would be in the book?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What kind of information would be recorded on these pages?

6 A. This is the information about the date when a person has been

7 summoned for a drill, when the drill was over, how long he had spent,

8 the signature and a stamp of the authorised body.

9 Q. Thank you. We have here a blank page; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Turning over now to the next page?

12 A. No. 13 or 14.

13 Q. Yes. Can you see there the section of the book dealing with pages 14

14 and 15?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Page 14 is actually a continuation of what we had seen before, but on

17 page 15 there we have a new section 10 and perhaps you could tell us

18 ---

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- what this section 10 on page 15 records?

21 A. It records the participation of the soldier in war.

22 Q. In war? How does that come to be recorded in that way?

23 A. This is special kind of information on the basis of one's

24 participation in war, individuals become entitled to certain rights.

25 Q. The SJB Prijedor, what does the "SJB" stand for?

Page 1954

1 A. Station of Public Security Prijedor. This is the civilian police.

2 Q. That is the civil police, and we have two dates within the stamps

3 there, 16th June 1992 on the left-hand side ---

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. -- and 25th December 1992 on the right-hand side?

6 A. This is not '95, it is '92, I think. It must be "2" in the end, not

7 "5", in the right-hand corner.

8 Q. Hopefully that is what I had said and, as I look at the transcript, I

9 said 1992 -- which shows the period of service commencing and the

10 period of service ending in the civil police; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In box (2) beneath that there is a further stamp, 10th June 1993, and

13 what does that indicate?

14 A. This is the date when he was admitted to a new military unit, new

15 wartime assignment.

16 Q. If we can just move now to further down that page, page 16, where we

17 have got a title to a new page, what does that show?

18 A. This is column 11 in military records, Municipal Assembly of Prijedor

19 of 28th December '71.

20 Q. 1971, and what does it indicate within this column?

21 A. Yes, it indicates that a conscript is on the records of the

22 Secretariat for National Defence and that he is kept on their books as

23 of that date; that as of that date he becomes a conscript under the

24 law of National Defence, that he has to report at a given time when he

25 is called up by the military authorities to the place which he is

Page 1955

1 assigned to.

2 Q. It is on that date that you enter into the records as they would have

3 been for the JNA?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Let us move to the next page, blank sections, but if we look at pages

6 20 and 21 as they have got on the foot of the page, can you see those?

7 First of all, what kind of information would be entered on page 20?

8 A. First, on the replacement of the military book, if it is replaced,

9 then in the old book it must be noted that he has received a new book,

10 and in column 13 that his military obligation of that person has

11 ceased.

12 Q. On page 21 where we have some formal text, I do not want you to

13 translate it, but can you just tell us what is contained within

14 section (14) of the military book?

15 A. In section (14) the rights and obligations of conscripts are

16 indicated, and it is explicitly stated what are his rights and his

17 obligations, to remind him.

18 Q. As we turn over a page now to pages 22 and 23, again those rights are

19 repeated, is that right, and on page 24?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In the next section we cannot see anything reproduced on page 25, but

22 if we turn over the page to pages 26 and 27 of the book, these are

23 coupons that are in the back of the book, is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What are these coupons for?

Page 1956

1 A. Those coupons said that on the basis of his wartime assignment he has

2 immediately to report to his military unit, and it indicates the exact

3 mobilization place which has already been announced to him and which

4 he has visited.

5 Q. And these coupons are torn out of the book, is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. They are in perforated sections?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The rest of the book is reproduced here without any further entries?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. KAY: Thank you. That is all I ask.


13 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour.

14 Re-Examined by Miss Hollis.

15 Q. Could I retrieve the original of that document for purposes of

16 questioning, please? Colonel Selak, on page 15 of that document do

17 you see the stamps that appear there?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Are you able to read those stamps to determine what agency stamped

20 those pages?

21 A. The first two stamps I cannot decipher from the photocopy, but these

22 are small stamps, or small in diameter, which were indeed used by the

23 public security service in the opstinas. This third stamp is the stamp

24 of the military postal code. I cannot read the number, but it says

25 Vojna Posta 7288. I believe this must be the wartime number of the

Page 1957

1 units to which he has been assigned. The war number does need not

2 coincide with the number of the peace time military post. Each unit

3 had a wartime code as well which only that unit was familiar with and

4 its superior command.

5 Q. Colonel Selak, you said that two of these stamps appear to be public

6 security services stamps. Is that the civilian police you are

7 referring to?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. May I confer for a moment, please?


11 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, perhaps because these copies are so hard to

12 read and the stamps are difficult, I realise this is a Defence

13 exhibit, but perhaps the original would be the best exhibit to provide

14 to the Court for your examination. Should you wish to examine it

15 later this would be much clearer.

16 MR. KAY: Absolutely no objection, your Honour, and the reproduction is

17 poor.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Then we will make the original Defence

19 Exhibit 8.

20 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, if I could ask that the original document be

21 given to Colonel Selak. It is open at pages 14 and 15. I think

22 perhaps we could put just that page on the elmo and bend the book. If

23 you are looking at section 10 part 1 where the letters 0D appear, what

24 is the date that you see there?

25 A. 16 of the 6th 1992, 16th June.

Page 1958

1 Q. Now that you have the opportunity to look at these stamps and the

2 original, are these in fact civilian police stamps?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So does that indicate that the entries would have been made and then

5 approved by the civilian police?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And this would have been the civilian police in Prijedor, is that

8 correct?

9 A. Attached to the Security Centre Banja Luka because they were

10 subordinated to the Security Centre in Banja Luka.

11 Q. Then if I could retrieve the original document, please. Perhaps just

12 to assist the Court, I know that reference was made to page 25, it was

13 unclear on the copies what page 25 actually looks like. Could that

14 perhaps be shown so that page 25 shows coupons missing, is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I have no further questions.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, do you have additional questions?

19 MR. KAY: I have no further questions to ask of the witness, your Honour.

20 JUDGE STEPHEN: Colonel, I wanted to ask you something to clarify a matter

21 that I am not clear on. Assume a young man, say 20, in the 1980s he

22 would have been subject to conscription in the ordinary course of

23 events into the JNA, is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Assuming he is healthy, fit, how would he ever end up in the TO?

Page 1959

1 A. After the completion of his military service in the Yugoslav People's

2 Army when he returns from his unit he would have to report within 48

3 hours to the Secretariat for National Defence of the Municipal

4 Assembly where he resides. His file from the unit is sent by official

5 mail to his municipality. If he does not report, he is called in

6 directly so that he cannot avoid receiving war time assignment in the

7 Secretariat for National Defence where he resides.

8 Q. Well, assuming a time of peace and he has done his military service

9 in the JNA and then is discharged, he automatically goes into the TO

10 or does he volunteer to serve in the TO?

11 A. No, he does not state his view. Service in the Yugoslav People's

12 Army is training according to specialities, ranging from infantry,

13 artillery, depending for which branch he was recruited. When he

14 completes that training, and that lasts up to one year, early on it

15 was 15 months and even two years, and in 1983 a new law on military

16 service for men of 18 years of age was 15 months. When he returns

17 home, when he is discharged, he is distributed into the war time units

18 of the Yugoslav People's Army according to the specialities for which

19 he has been trained, and only those people who are surplus were given

20 to the Territorial Defence. Similarly, the ranks of the Security

21 Services were filled in. They were given certain people at their

22 request or in other ways to fill in the wartime Police Force.

23 Q. So does that mean that this young man that we are thinking of, having

24 finished his compulsory military service, either remains as a reserve

25 soldier or else if not wanted as a reserve soldier and being surplus

Page 1960

1 to requirements, then automatically goes into the TO, is that the

2 situation?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. That classifies that. The second thing I wanted to ask

5 you was, you have made reference in your evidence to the Second

6 Military District in Sarajevo?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. The headquarters were or was in Sarajevo of that district?

9 A. Yes, the headquarters of the Second Military District was in Sarajevo

10 as of January 10th '92 until it collapsed, I think it was in May '92.

11 Q. Although in Sarajevo it of course had no connection, I assume, with

12 the Bosnian government?

13 A. No, it was directly subordinated to the General Staff of the Yugoslav

14 People's Army in Belgrade.

15 Q. It was not in Pale which is very close to Sarajevo; it was in

16 Sarajevo itself, was it?

17 A. Yes, in Sarajevo itself there is a command building headquarters of

18 the previously Seventh Army. In '88 there was a reorganisation of the

19 Yugoslav People's Army and army districts were formed, and the Seventh

20 Army was disbanded and they were subjected to the military command in

21 Belgrade. With the formation of the Second Army the command was again

22 located in those buildings in the city of Sarajevo itself.

23 Q. But presumably in no way under the control of the Bosnian government?

24 A. No.

25 Q. The last question I wanted to ask you was that in the course of your

Page 1961

1 evidence, as I understood it, you said that on 15th May 1992 those

2 soldiers who had been born in Bosnia-Herzegovina were ordered to

3 report and place themselves at the disposal of JNA units in

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So that they were directly ordered to join, what, specified JNA

7 units?

8 A. They had to report, those from units doing their military service in

9 various places like Macedonia or elsewhere, they had to go to specific

10 units. About 105 soldiers came to me from Yugoslavia, young men born

11 in Bosnia-Herzegovina or in Bosnian Krajina, mostly in Banja Luka. I

12 do not know whether they were asked where they wanted to go or where

13 they were born. Probably that is how they were returned. I did not

14 ask them, but they all had to report to units in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15 Q. So that JNA soldiers who on 15th May or thereabouts 1992 were born in

16 Serbia and Montenegro and serving in Bosnia-Herzegovina, they were

17 ordered to report to units outside Bosnia-Herzegovina; that was one

18 class of soldier?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And then another class were those who were born in Bosnia-Herzegovina

21 and they were ordered to report to some units of the JNA within

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have a couple of questions, Colonel. The Defence

Page 1962

1 Exhibit 8 was identified as a military book for Mr. Tadic. What does

2 that mean? Does that mean that -- well, explain to me what it means?

3 What is a military book?

4 A. A military book serves as a document for the military conscript, as

5 an ID card, and it has validity in the unit. It is the only document

6 with which he proves his identity.

7 Q. So when he either is joined or invited to join into the military, he

8 is given this book? Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Then I gather in this book is stamped the position, the office that

11 he holds and the length of time that he holds that office?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So if I were then to look at Defence 8 I could determine then every

14 position that Mr. Tadic had in the military, is that correct?

15 A. Yes, on condition that the Secretariat and the unit were up-to-date.

16 Q. What does that mean? What do you mean up-to-date? That they did

17 their job properly?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. But you indicated that on page 25 there were some coupons missing, if

20 you look at the original, and then when you were responding to

21 questions concerning page 26 you described coupons as stating the

22 wartime assignment and military unit to which he must report. So my

23 question is, since there are some coupons missing, can I truly

24 determine from looking at this book every military assignment Mr.

25 Tadic held?

Page 1963

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Probably that is not a well-stated question. Can I determine from

3 looking at this book every military position Mr. Tadic held?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Then what is the purpose of the coupons?

6 A. The purpose of the coupons is that he must report to a lower unit.

7 The records are kept at the level of a Brigade, Battalion Brigades,

8 and in the coupon there is a number saying where he has to report to a

9 lower level unit, a company or a detachment, and he carries this

10 coupon saying where he is assigned because he does not know until he

11 is told that at the Mobilization Assembly meeting.

12 Q. So when the stamps are made that indicates the positions that he has

13 held and the coupons are used by him to go to wherever the assignment

14 is, is that correct?

15 A. Yes, where he is assigned to. (No translation).

16 Q. I am not hearing the translation.

17 A. His company leader knew to what posts he had assigned him. It is not

18 indicated here.

19 Q. These entries I gather were made, some of them were made at a time

20 when there was a mobilization and persons were called into the

21 service?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. If someone was appointed to an office, for example, Secretary of a

24 Local Commune, and if that satisfied his mobilization obligation,

25 would that have been entered in this book?

Page 1964

1 A. It would say that he has a new assignment, that he has been assigned

2 to civilian protection, the police station or that he has been

3 discharged because of sickness or some other reason.

4 Q. That would be one of these stamps that you have indicated that are on

5 the various pages, is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Not one of the missing coupons that I did not understand. It is one

8 of the stamps that I would have to take a look at?

9 A. No, if he is relieved then there is a special column and he is

10 deleted from the records.

11 Q. And where would that be? Where would I look for that in this book?

12 A. On page 20 column 13.

13 Q. That would indicate if someone was relieved from the military for

14 emergency reasons?

15 A. He may be relieved because of disease or old age, because if he

16 became a conscript at 18 it lasts until he is 60, on the basis of

17 sickness or changing his place of residence, if he is moving to

18 another commune, another municipality or to another state, if he is

19 changing his place of residence. There are many reasons for which

20 this wartime assignment is deleted or if he is going abroad for

21 employment.

22 Q. In your testimony you indicated regarding Exhibits 170 and 174 that

23 there are some dotted lines. Do you recall these organisational

24 charts? Can you see them from here generally?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1965

1 Q. There were some dotted lines going from the VRS command looking at

2 170 to the Logistics Administration with various individuals, and you

3 had indicated that the dotted lines meant that there was no formal

4 chain of command but that there was a co-ordination between the two.

5 Do you recall that testimony?

6 A. Yes. That is true.

7 Q. What did you mean when you said that even though there was no formal

8 chain of command there was a co-ordination?

9 A. Personally I can speak of my own unit. I regularly had contacts and

10 my subordinates with the Technical Administration of the Army of

11 Yugoslavia and with the Base of the Technical Administration of the

12 Army of Yugoslavia in Belgrade. My bodies also contacted with other

13 units, other Bases in Belgrade, Novi Sad, Ceugic concerning essential

14 supplies for my Base. By way of example I had contacts with Colonel

15 Brkic Milisav, Commander of the Technical Administration based in

16 Belgrade for critical supplies which I was short of. So there was no

17 direct command, chain of command, but there was this communication on

18 what was necessary. My transport were regularly going from Banja Luka

19 to the territory of Yugoslavia where they received the necessary

20 materiel, supplies and equipment for my Base.

21 Q. So I am referring to Exhibit 170 which indicates that this would have

22 been have been after May 18th 1992, is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis do you have additional questions?

25 MISS HOLLIS: Just a few, your Honour. Thank you.

Page 1966

1 Further Examined by Miss Hollis.

2 Q. Colonel Selak, I believe you indicated in response to Judge McDonald

3 questions about the accused's military book that the information she

4 asked about would be in the book if the book had been kept up-to-date,

5 is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So if for some reason the book had not been kept current, then such

8 information would not be in the book?

9 A. True.

10 Q. Now the Second Military District that was headquartered in Sarajevo,

11 that Second Military District was under the command of the Yugoslav

12 Army, the JNA, headquartered in Belgrade, is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The Second Military District was at no time under the command of the

15 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, is that correct?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Was not?

18 A. It was not.

19 Q. You also indicated that as of a certain date in May there was an

20 order that Bosnian-Serb soldiers who were out of Bosnia must return to

21 Bosnia.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And that soldiers who were not Bosnian Serbs must leave Bosnia, is

24 that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1967

1 Q. Now to your knowledge, if we are talking about soldiers, not

2 officers, to your knowledge as of that date in May did all the Serb

3 soldiers who were from Serbia in fact leave Bosnia and go back to

4 Serbia or Montenegro?

5 A. I can talk about my unit. From my unit they did. I also believe

6 they did from Corps units because their parents had intervened asking

7 for the boys to come back because they feared for their lives, so they

8 did return. Whether somebody stayed behind of his own will, I do not

9 know, but he could if he wanted to.

10 Q. So these were Serb soldiers who were from Serbia or Montenegro left

11 Bosnia and returned to Serbia or Montenegro?

12 A. Yes, not Serbs only. There were Albanians, Montenegrins, Muslims or

13 Bosniaks. That is all those born in that territory, that is the

14 territory of Montenegro or Serbia could go back. They were Hungarians

15 from Vojvodina, that is all those who were doing their military

16 service in the territory of, in the units in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 Q. I believe you testified earlier that contrary to what happened with

18 the soldiers, most of the Serb officers you knew who were from Serbia

19 or Montenegro in fact remained in Bosnia after this date, is that

20 correct?

21 A. Yes, they stayed.

22 Q. Concerning conscripts who had completed their mandatory active

23 service, you indicated that they would first be assigned to the JNA

24 reserves once the JNA reserves were filled and then they would go to

25 the Territorial Defence Forces?

Page 1968

1 A. Yes. I did not mention that wartime units, rather the JNA units, were

2 entitled to a 5 per cent more of a replenishment than the original

3 formation, that is when they would be filled up to 105 per cent of the

4 wartime strength, then the rest of the men could be assigned to TO or

5 I do not know if they were physicians, then to hospitals or to

6 military industries and so on and so forth. There were cases of that

7 kind.

8 Q. Some of these overflow, if you will, of reservists could also be

9 assigned to reserve militia units, is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And by "militia" here I mean civilian police?

12 A. Yes, that is right.

13 MISS HOLLIS: No further questions.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, do you have additional questions?

15 MR. KAY: Just one matter.

16 Further Cross-Examined by Mr. Kay.

17 Q. If you could turn to the part of the military book dealing with pages

18 14 and 15?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Where the stamp of the civil police is included?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Those dates of 16th June 1992 to 25th December 1992 appear to be

23 stamps current for that period, beginning of the service on 16th June,

24 finish of the service on 25th December, is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1969

1 Q. So for that period at least the book was kept up-to-date?

2 A. Yes.


4 MISS HOLLIS: No questions, your Honour.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection then to Colonel Selak being

6 permanently excused?

7 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Then, Colonel Selak, you are permanently

9 excused. Thank you very much for coming. You may leave.

10 (The witness withdrew).

11 I want to talk with Counsel. Mr. Wladimiroff, we I guess last

12 week talked about the schedule in July. You had indicated that you

13 did want to make arrangements to continue discovery. I know it is

14 difficult for you because you have to make them well in advance. I

15 told you I was having some difficulty because until a Judge of Trial

16 Chamber Two (sic) actually submits the indictments to the entire Trial

17 Chamber for a Rule 61 hearing, there is no assurance that it is going

18 to happen. I have spoken with a member of the Trial Chamber and they

19 firmly believe that they will go forward with that Rule 61 proceeding.

20 So even though that order has not been entered, that is what they

21 have told me. So I think that it is safe, I know that it is safe for

22 you -- I say I know -- I believe it is safe for you ----

23 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Almost safe!

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- to make arrangements to go where you need to go

25 to complete your discovery. So we will not then be hearing the case

Page 1970

1 for the first two weeks of July and June 27th and 28th. So the first

2 two weeks then of July is what we are planning on the other Trial

3 Chamber having its Rule 61 proceeding and so we will not be hearing

4 this case, nor will we hear it on 27th and 28th. They will begin the

5 Rule 61 proceeding on 27th I am told. So we will make arrangements

6 accordingly. If I hear anything further I will tell you as soon as I

7 hear something. Mr. Niemann, do you have any comment?

8 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I know disappointment.

10 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We may have some questions left, if I may?


12 MR. WLADIMIROFF: So that means that from 27th June up to 12th of July

13 there will be no hearing in this case?



16 MR. WLADIMIROFF: That is right. I take it that the other dates in June

17 and July will

18 be the regular Tuesday up to Friday hearings, unless it is given

19 notice that that will not apply?


21 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I also heard, true or not true, that there will be

22 another biannual meeting of the Judges on 24th and 25th or 25th and

23 26th. If that is true I take it you will not sit either?

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No. We have decided that this case is more

25 important, and so we are not attending that plenary meeting.

Page 1971

1 MR. WLADIMIROFF: So I have not heard it!

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You have heard that there is a meeting, you are very

3 correct. Sometimes you hear things faster than I do, but we have

4 decided that we will not attend, that this is more important. Very

5 good.

6 We will adjourn until tomorrow at 10 o'clock.

7 (The hearing adjourned until the following day)