Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2459




4 Thursday, 13th June 1996

5 (10.00 a.m.)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, would you like to continue with Dr.

7 Blazevic?

8 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, just prior to bringing the witness in, there is

9 one matter I would like to raise in connection with Mr. Niemann's

10 comments before the court yesterday. The particular circumstance that

11 led us to raise this issue was that it is our understanding that there

12 have been public comments either through representatives of the

13 Defence or, perhaps, relatives of the accused that an issue the

14 Defence may raise is the issue of a mistake of identity, in that there

15 may have been another man who looked very much like the accused.

16 That was the concern that prompted us to raise this issue

17 because if, in fact, that is correct, and the Defence chooses to go

18 forward with that issue in their case in-chief without asking our

19 witnesses about it, then we would be compelled to attempt to bring our

20 witnesses back to address that issue because of concerns that we have

21 raised here with the Chamber as well as time concerns and the impact

22 on the witnesses being brought back for such a matter. We raise this

23 question to the court of how we should proceed on that.

24 The witness that is before the Tribunal now would be such a

25 witness that we would either deal with that issue on direct or if the

Page 2460

1 Defence were going to deal with it on cross-examination. So, that is

2 the particular issue that we had in mind when we raised the question.

3 There is a bit of immediacy to that. I suppose one or two

4 witnesses we could attempt to recall, but I wanted again to raise that

5 specific issue with the court so they would have a better

6 understanding of why we raised the concern at the time we did.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you have anything to add, Mr. Kay?

8 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour. The challenge to the witness which we are now

9 discussing, Mr. Q, was on the basis that he did not see what he

10 alleged he saw, and that case was quite clearly put to that witness,

11 as the court may recollect, yesterday in relation to his allegation

12 against the defendant.

13 In those circumstances, the Defence has discharged its

14 obligation to cross-examine on an issue with which it was in

15 disagreement with the witness, and that would fall squarely within the

16 rules, as I understand them, from my jurisdiction and other

17 jurisdictions that apply the same criteria. The court may, perhaps,

18 need some time to look at the transcripts of what actually took place

19 yesterday and on the late afternoon of Tuesday but, as I understood

20 it, it was quite clear that that witness was challenged in relation to

21 his allegations.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are you making a reference to a specific witness or

23 is this a general issue?

24 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, it would, I believe, be a potential issue with

25 the present witness, Dr. Blazevic. We clearly understood the import

Page 2461

1 of the Defence cross-examination with Q and we understand that is not

2 the issue here, but we believe there may be other witnesses that this

3 would be the same issue.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I got the impression that the two of you were like

5 two ships passing in the night, you were at cross-purposes, so you are

6 referring to the present witness and as a general proposition. It may

7 be something that we need to take up in camera by way of a discussion

8 of the meaning of Rule 67A(ii)(b) which requires that the Defence

9 shall notify the Prosecutor of its intent to offer any special defence

10 and then it goes on. It says, "including that of diminished or lack

11 of mental responsibility", and I can recall at one of our in camera

12 pretrial conferences there was a discussion about what else did that

13 rule entail.

14 I do not know whether there is a possibility that that rule

15 entails what we are talking about now. I received just this morning

16 something from Blackstone's Criminal Practice that came from the

17 Prosecutor, I understand -- at least, one of the law clerks said that.

18 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I see also there is something from Australian

20 Evidence Ligertwood. That is it. Does the Prosecutor intend to offer

21 anything else on this issue?

22 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, we could put this into a formal motion, if

23 that would be a more convenient way of dealing with it?

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I was just wondering if you were wanting to offer

25 anything else.

Page 2462

1 MR. NIEMANN: I merely gave that in support of the matter I raised

2 yesterday. It is just the authority for the proposition I was

3 raising, but if your Honours would be more assisted with it being put

4 into a formal motion, then I certainly would do that.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That probably is helpful, particularly since the

6 Defence has indicated at least yesterday that they would probably take

7 a different position.

8 MR. NIEMANN: Certainly.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I am concerned though about this witness. I do not

10 know how much longer you have with this witness, but if this issue is

11 being raised with respect to this witness, it seems to me that there

12 may be a need on the part of the Trial Chamber to resolve this issue

13 quickly. Of course, what we have is information from Blackstone's and

14 Ligertwood, two pages -- five pages, I guess.

15 So, is it your intent, is it your desire, Miss Hollis, for the

16 Trial Chamber to resolve this issue before you conclude with this

17 witness or at least before cross-examination is concluded?

18 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I guess we would have two options perhaps; one

19 option is that the Trial Chamber resolve this. That would be our

20 preferred option. The second option would be if there is no

21 resolution, that we then either in our direct or perhaps be allowed in

22 redirect to ask questions going to this issue, if the Defence does not

23 raise it in their cross-examination.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You can hear this?

25 MR. KAY: Yes, the terminology is becoming clearer as people express the

Page 2463

1 idea. What I was talking about yesterday was, in fact, on a different

2 matter. "Putting your case" and "cross-examination" are two slightly

3 different issues; cross-examination, challenging those issues of

4 substance that you disagree with in the Prosecution case, and no-one

5 expects you to cross-examine on every single thing under the sun that

6 a witness talks about as, the court would appreciate, we would be here

7 for a long while. "Putting the case", I was understanding entirely

8 something different which is where you assert your case to the witness

9 and say, "Is that not right?" They either deny it or accept it, which

10 is a slightly different procedure looking at the document I have been

11 given this morning. Cross-examination was something that we fully

12 intended to follow within this understanding of our obligation to any

13 court as we would see it, your Honour.


15 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I believe in the light of what Defence counsel

16 has just said that solves the issue for us and solves our concerns in

17 the matter.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Thank you, Mr. Kay.

19 Are you ready to call your next witness ---

20 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: -- or continue with Dr. Blazevic?

22 DR. AZRA BLAZEVIC, recalled

23 Examined by MISS HOLLIS, continued.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Dr. Blazevic, you understand you are still under

25 oath, do you understand that?

Page 2464

1 THE WITNESS [In translation]: Yes.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, you may proceed.

3 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you. (To the witness): Dr. Blazevic, at the

4 conclusion of your testimony yesterday you indicated at some point in

5 the medical centre the soldiers took a woman named Gordana from the

6 medical centre; when she had returned she said they had taken her so

7 she could point out her flat so they would not touch it. Do you

8 recall that testimony?

9 A. No, but so that they would not touch her flat. That is how I

10 understood it.

11 Q. Yes, and what was Gordana's ethnic group?

12 A. Serb.

13 Q. You also said yesterday that once the medical supplies from the

14 medical clinic were loaded on a military vehicle you were taken toward

15 the centre of Kozarac. I would like Prosecution Exhibit 195, a film

16 of Kozarac, to be played showing the hospital again, please? Dr.

17 Blazevic, if you could look carefully at the condition of the hospital

18 as it is shown on this film.

19 (The video was played)

20 Thank you. If that film could be removed, please? Dr.

21 Blazevic, as you examined the medical centre as it was shown on that

22 film, did that film depict the basic condition of the medical centre

23 as it appeared when you left it on 26th May 1992? I am speaking of

24 the building itself.

25 A. Yes, one could say so, that it looked exactly like that.

Page 2465

1 Q. You had mentioned that a shell hit the building and hit a corner of

2 the building. Was that corner of the building shown on that film

3 clip?

4 A. No.

5 Q. When you were taken from the medical centre towards the centre of

6 Kozarac were all the other medical personnel taken with you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did these soldiers accompany you as you were moved towards the centre

9 of Kozarac?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Where were you taken?

12 A. We were taken towards the intersection of Marsala Tita Street, the

13 one which goes through the centre of Kozarac and the old road.

14 Q. Where did they eventually stop you and the other medical personnel,

15 at what location?

16 A. They stopped by the sweet shop, by the pastry shop in Kozarac.

17 Q. On the way between the medical centre and the intersection, I

18 believe you indicated that you were taken there along Marsala Tita

19 Street, is that correct?

20 A. Yes, part of the street.

21 Q. Did you have an opportunity to observe the condition of the buildings

22 as you walked along Marsala Tita Street?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What did you observe about the condition of the buildings?

25 A. They were damaged by shells.

Page 2466

1 Q. As you walked along did you smell smoke or see any of the buildings

2 on fire?

3 A. In one part one could see smoke behind, in the rear, behind those

4 houses.

5 Q. As you walked along Marsala Tita Street did you pass the home and

6 cafe of Dule Tadic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What did you observe of the condition of the home and cafe of Dule

9 Tadic?

10 A. I remember that glass was broken on the cafe, on the house of --

11 probably by shells which had been falling because that whole area was

12 rather badly damaged by shells.

13 Q. Did you notice anything on the home or cafe of Dule Tadic that

14 appeared as though it had been actually hit by a shell?

15 A. You mean a direct hit ---

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. -- of a shell, no.

18 Q. When you got to this pastry shop what happened then?

19 A. We were told there to stop and wait.

20 Q. While you were at the pastry shop did you see any people from the

21 convoy that had left earlier that morning?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What did you see while you were at this pastry shop?

24 A. We could see several groups of soldiers there and a truck parked on

25 the side.

Page 2467

1 Q. Then what happened after you arrived there?

2 A. While we were standing and waiting, a soldier came and called out one

3 of the members of this medical personnel who was professionally the

4 ambulance car driver, Mohamed Bahonjic, and told him to follow him.

5 Q. I am sorry, what was the name of the man who was called out?

6 A. Nihad Bahonjic.

7 Q. How was he called out? Was he called out by name or otherwise?

8 A. Yes. The soldier approached us and uttered his name and family name

9 and told him to follow him.

10 Q. Nihad Bahonjic, had he been with you at the medical centre?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Had he also been with you at the motel?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. To your knowledge, what was the ethnic group of Nihad Bahonjic?

15 A. Muslim.

16 Q. The soldier who called out Nihad Bahonjic by name, did you recognise

17 this soldier?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did it appear to you that Nihad recognised this soldier?

20 A. No.

21 Q. What happened after the soldier called Nihad out by name?

22 A. He took him a little further away from where we were and they

23 remained standing there in the street by a group of soldiers.

24 Q. What happened after that?

25 A. And as we were waiting there somebody said, "There is Dule".

Page 2468

1 Q. When you heard that what did you do?

2 A. I looked up, it meant that somebody whom we knew was there. I looked

3 around and I noticed Dusko Tadic crossing the street, not far away.

4 Q. When you saw him crossing the street, what was he doing?

5 A. Well, he was simply crossing the street.

6 Q. And was he carrying anything?

7 A. Yes, in one hand he had a kind of a weapon.

8 Q. With his other hand was he doing anything?

9 A. I remember it was raised in the air as if he was saying something to

10 someone, or trying to draw someone's attention.

11 Q. To your memory, what was Dule Tadic wearing when you saw him?

12 A. He had a uniform.

13 MISS HOLLIS: If Prosecution Exhibit 196, the map of Kozarac, could be

14 placed on the overhead projector, please? If the witness could please

15 point out for the court, first, where she was standing when she saw

16 Dule Tadic?

17 A. Here, more or less in front of this building here.

18 Q. So this would have been the building where the pastry shop was

19 located?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You are now at the intersection of what some people call the old

22 Prijedor road?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you please point out for the court where Dule Tadic was when

25 you saw him and in which direction he was moving?

Page 2469

1 A. He was roughly here and he was crossing the street from this side

2 towards the direction of the school.

3 Q. Thank you. If I could have this document 7/20 marked for

4 identification?

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: For the record, the witness pointed to where now

6 when she saw him?

7 MISS HOLLIS: I am sorry, your Honour.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: He was at the top of the triangle?

9 MISS HOLLIS: The witness pointed to an area near the road at the top of

10 the triangle, and indicated that the accused was moving across the

11 road toward the school. If this could be marked Prosecution Exhibit

12 202 for identification, please?

13 (To the witness): If you could please examine that photograph? That is

14 document 7/20. Dr. Blazevic, do you recognise that as the

15 intersection you were just referring to?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Does it show the shop that was the pastry shop?

18 A. Yes.

19 MISS HOLLIS: Perhaps, your Honour, I would offer Prosecution Exhibit 202.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection?

21 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 202 will be admitted.

23 MISS HOLLIS: If that photograph could be placed on the overhead

24 projector, please? (To the witness): Dr. Blazevic, if you could use

25 the pointer and help orient the court for this photograph, would you

Page 2470

1 please point to the area where you said that you were standing when

2 you saw the accused?

3 A. It would be this place here.

4 Q. That would be in front of that building on the other side of the

5 intersection?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. For our reference purposes, in which direction would Marsala Tita be

8 running toward the mosque?

9 A. It would be this direction.

10 Q. So as we are looking at the photograph, it would be as the road goes

11 off to the left?

12 A. Yes, it would be the road to the left going by this house and then

13 further through Kozarac.

14 Q. Then if we look to the right side of the photograph, we see the road

15 coming around that wedge of grass to the right, where would that road

16 be leading?

17 A. Do you mean this road here?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. This road, in this part here turns into two roads, and one goes to

20 the left side towards Kamicani and the other one goes straight towards

21 Banja Luka road.

22 Q. The one that goes towards Kamicani, would that run past the church?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The one that goes to the Banja Luka road you are talking about, the

25 new Prijedor/Banja Luka road?

Page 2471

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. The school on this map would be in which direction on this photograph

3 here?

4 A. The school would be somewhere here, in this part here.

5 Q. So it would be on the -----

6 A. On the left side of the picture that we do not have. We do not have

7 this place here shown.

8 Q. We do not have the school, but it would be on the left of the picture

9 shown by the photograph?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you please show the court where it was that you saw Dule Tadic?

12 A. It would be approximately here, on this part of the road somewhere

13 here. He was crossing the road from this direction, coming from near

14 the house where at one time there was a technical goods store and he

15 was moving towards the school.

16 Q. Could you please show us how far across the road he walked as you

17 watched him?

18 A. I saw him just for a moment approximately in the part of the road

19 that was probably here.

20 Q. You said that you saw him walking, is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So, is that the only area of the road you saw him or did you see him

23 as he moved closer towards the school?

24 A. I only saw him walking in that direction.

25 Q. So if you could show again to the court where it was that you saw

Page 2472

1 him?

2 A. Roughly here.

3 Q. This would be just in front of one of the points on the triangle near

4 where two people are shown walking, is that correct?

5 A. Yes. It would be in this part where the two roads join into one

6 road.

7 Q. You were then looking across the wedge of grass as you saw Dule

8 Tadic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What time of the day was it that you arrived at the intersection and

11 saw Dule Tadic?

12 A. It was in the afternoon.

13 Q. Have you any idea about what time of the afternoon it was?

14 A. I could not tell exactly, perhaps around 3 o'clock, maybe later.

15 Q. Was it a sunny day or was it a cloudy day?

16 A. It was a sunny day.

17 Q. Was there anything between you and the accused which obstructed your

18 view of the accused?

19 A. No.

20 Q. How long were you able to see him?

21 A. It was just a moment, a few seconds.

22 Q. Was there anything about that incident that made your sighting of

23 Dule Tadic stick out in your mind, remain in your mind?

24 A. It remained in my mind because Nihad Bahonjic was not taken from that

25 intersection with us to Trnopolje, and all of the time after that we

Page 2473

1 were wondering why was he taken and who took him, because the soldier

2 that came and called out Nihad Bahonjic called him out by his name and

3 last name, none of us knew that soldier and I remember that the only

4 known face -- the only person that we knew and who was there at that

5 time was exactly Dusko Tadic. That is it.

6 Q. You indicated yesterday, just for a matter of clarification for the

7 record, that you believe that you had known Dusko Tadic to see him in

8 passing from the time you began to practise veterinary medicine in

9 Kozarac. Could you tell us please ---

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- when that would have been when you started to practise veterinary

12 medicine in Kozarac?

13 A. In July of 1983.

14 Q. Of 1983 in Kozarac or 1986 when you moved to Kozarac?

15 A. No, I moved into Kozarac a few years later. It was in 1986.

16 Q. So, you would first have known Mr. Tadic in 1983 when you began to

17 practise in Kozarac, is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You also said yesterday that on a weekly basis you would perhaps see

20 Dule Tadic in Kozarac every day, perhaps on occasions several times in

21 one day. Prior to 26th May, when do you last recall seeing Dule Tadic

22 in Kozarac?

23 A. I could not tell you exactly the day, but it was perhaps a day or two

24 before the attack on Kozarac.

25 Q. Was 26th May the last time you saw Dule Tadic in Bosnia?

Page 2474

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. After this incident at the intersection, were you and the others

3 eventually taken away from Kozarac?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How were you transported from Kozarac?

6 A. From the place where we were standing, we were taken to a place on

7 the road to Kozarusa, when you leave Kozarac and go through a new road

8 to Prijedor, we were taken by a jeep or a similar vehicle.

9 Q. Was Nihad Bahonjic taken with you?

10 A. No, he remained there.

11 Q. Have you ever seen Nihad Bahonjic again after that date?

12 A. No.

13 MISS HOLLIS: Could the witness please be given Prosecution Exhibit 79?

14 If the photograph could be provided back to the Registrar? Could you

15 look at that map for a moment and then, if we could put it on the

16 overhead projector, if you could show the court the direction that you

17 were taken in the military vehicle and where you were taken in the

18 military vehicle? If that could be put on the overhead projector,

19 please?

20 A. It would be an intersection of old road where we were standing. We

21 were taken towards the new Banja Luka road, and then we were driving

22 on the new Banja Luka road towards Prijedor, and we came to the place

23 that would be approximately here.

24 Q. All right. On this route that you have just shown the court, it

25 appears that you went through a portion of Kozarusa or near Kozarusa,

Page 2475

1 is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What did you see as you passed through or near Kozarusa? What did you

4 see of the village?

5 A. We saw that all of the village was burnt.

6 Q. The inhabitants of Kozarusa, to your knowledge, they were what ethnic

7 group?

8 A. Muslim.

9 Q. This military vehicle took you to what location? Was it to a

10 building or a structure?

11 A. The vehicle stopped in front of a tavern which in Kozarac was known

12 as Zikina tavern.

13 Q. That would appear to be at an intersection that is to the right of

14 "Coralic", the word "Coralic" on the map, and also is below the word

15 "Coralic" on the map, is that correct?

16 A. It would be a place that can be seen exactly here.

17 Q. Thank you. Then what happened once you were taken to this cafe?

18 A. We were stopped there. They told us to leave and we waited here

19 again.

20 Q. While you were waiting did you have any guards or escorts?

21 A. There were soldiers there in front of the tavern, soldiers that stood

22 on the road.

23 Q. What happened then after you had waited there for a time? Where were

24 you taken from there?

25 A. After that we were told to enter one of the buses that were standing

Page 2476

1 there and they took us to Trnopolje.

2 Q. This bus that you entered, what type of a bus was it?

3 A. As far as I remember, it was a plain transportation bus which is

4 normally used in the public transportation.

5 Q. On your route from Kozarac and then to Trnopolje, at any time did you

6 see any combat vehicles such as tanks or amoured personnel carriers?

7 A. I do not remember seeing them.

8 Q. During the time after the Serb takeover of Prijedor and the attack on

9 Kozarac, had you ever seen tanks or amoured personnel carriers either

10 near Kozarac or near Prijedor?

11 A. Once I saw a tank in Kozarac.

12 Q. Where was it in Kozarac?

13 A. That tank was in the intersection of new Banja Luka road and the road

14 that crosses from Kozarac in the direction of Trnopolje.

15 Q. When was it that you saw that tank at that intersection?

16 A. I could not be able to say exactly, but perhaps seven days, maybe

17 more, before the attack on Kozarac.

18 Q. When you were taken to Trnopolje to what location in Trnopolje were

19 you taken?

20 A. They brought us to Trnopolje, to the place located near the rail road

21 station and we were told to go to the clinic in Trnopolje, medical

22 clinic in Trnopolje, and stay there.

23 Q. When your bus actually stopped you were near what building in

24 Trnopolje?

25 A. The bus stopped a little bit further in a meadow from which one could

Page 2477

1 go into the school in Trnopolje, or into the building of -- municipal

2 building in Trnopolje or into the medical clinic in Trnopolje and we

3 were told to go into the medical clinic in Trnopolje and remain there.

4 Q. When this bus arrived in Trnopolje, who met the bus?

5 A. There were many soldiers there and a man whom I did not know at that

6 time, and later I found out that that was Slobodan Kuruzovic, the

7 Commander of the camp in Trnopolje.

8 Q. So you did not know him prior to your arrival at Trnopolje camp?

9 A. No.

10 Q. On the day that you arrived there and he met you with the soldiers,

11 what were the soldiers wearing?

12 A. Uniforms.

13 Q. What was Mr. Kuruzovic wearing?

14 A. Also a uniform.

15 Q. You indicated that Mr. Kuruzovic was the Commander of Trnopolje camp.

16 How did you come to learn that he was the Commander of the camp?

17 A. We found that out because during our later stay in Trnopolje, if we

18 were asking somebody something or requesting something, the guards

19 were always mentioning Commander Kuruzovic. I know that people who

20 wanted to leave the camp or who were leaving the camp, they had to

21 have an authorisation from the Commander, Kuruzovic.

22 Q. Did Kuruzovic ever give you orders of any type while you were in the

23 camp?

24 A. Yes, several times.

25 Q. You indicated that he told you to go to the medical centre at the

Page 2478

1 camp. Who along with yourself was told to go to the medical centre?

2 A. The whole group that came from Kozarac.

3 Q. That medical centre was located inside the Trnopolje camp?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is that medical centre where you worked and slept for the rest of

6 your stay at Trnopolje?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How long were you held in Trnopolje camp?

9 A. I spent in Trnopolje until mid August. I was there until mid August

10 of 1992.

11 MISS HOLLIS: At this time could the next video in line please be shown?

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is that 190?

13 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, this would be Prosecution Exhibit 203 for

14 identification.


16 (Video was played)

17 Could the video be stopped here, please?

18 (To the witness): Dr. Blazevic, do you recognise what is being shown on

19 the video?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What is being shown on the video? What is the structure we are

22 looking at here?

23 A. This is the building of the elementary school in Trnopolje.

24 Q. The elementary school that was part of the camp in Trnopolje?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2479

1 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, at this time I would offer Prosecution Exhibit

2 203 for identification.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Exhibit 203?

4 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 203 will be admitted.

6 MISS HOLLIS (To the witness): Dr. Blazevic, as we began this tape we saw

7 a fence that was next to a house. If we go forward again, please, we

8 see a fence as it runs along in front of the school. If we can go

9 forward from there? Stop here, please. It appears the fence is broken

10 in parts but then continues to run on, on the other side of the

11 school. Was that fence there in Trnopolje when you arrived at the camp

12 on 26th May 1992?

13 A. Yes, the fence was there.

14 Q. The portions that are shown where the fence has fallen down, was the

15 fence standing in those areas when you arrived there in May 1992?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. We have seen evidence in this court of a barbed wired fence at

18 Trnopolje camp. Do you recall that barbed wire fence being erected at

19 the camp?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When was that barbed wired fence erected at the camp?

22 A. That fence was erected immediately before the inmates from Keraterm

23 and Omarska were transferred to Trnopolje which could be at the end of

24 July.

25 Q. Is that an estimate on your part?

Page 2480

1 A. No, that is a fact. I could not say whether between the time when

2 the fence was erected, whether four or five days went by, but not more

3 than that.

4 Q. How long was that fence actually standing at Trnopolje?

5 A. That fence was there during that period of time until the inmates

6 from Keraterm came and I think that the same night or maybe the next

7 day after they came, the fence was removed.

8 Q. All right. If we could go back to the video, please. This building

9 that we are approaching -- could you stop the video there, please --

10 this building that we now see, the white building to the left of which

11 is the white vehicle, what is that building?

12 A. The building in the background -- do you mean the building in the

13 background behind the vehicle or the building in front of the picture?

14 Q. The building in front of the picture, the building to the right of

15 the white UN vehicle.

16 A. That is the building where the store in Trnopolje was located.

17 Q. Did that building have a back portion to it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is that back portion where the medical clinic was located?

20 A. Yes.

21 MISS HOLLIS: If we could continue the film, please? If we could continue

22 the film, please? If we could stop the film here? Excuse me, if we

23 could back up just a bit, just a few frames? (To the witness): What

24 is this building?

25 A. It is the building which housed a former Local Commune of Trnopolje.

Page 2481

1 Q. What types of things were in this building? What types of functions

2 were held there?

3 A. You mean when I was in Trnopolje?

4 Q. No, before it was a camp, what was the building normally used for?

5 A. This was a Local Commune or a local government building. I do not

6 know, how should I call this -- local government, a smaller local

7 government unit than opstina.

8 Q. All right. Was there sometimes a cinema in that building?

9 A. Yes, there was -- a cinema was there in this building in the back of

10 this building that you cannot see from here.

11 Q. If we could advance the film, please? If we could stop the film

12 here, please? What is this building that we are now seeing?

13 A. This was the storage or the store for the building materials.

14 Q. Were detainees ever held in this building?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you recall which detainees were held there?

17 A. In the beginning, this building, the groups were held here for a day,

18 two or three. The group of inmates from Omarska were held here for

19 several days before they joined the rest of the camp of Trnopolje.

20 Q. If we could continue the film, please? This intersection here and as

21 we are turning towards the intersection, we would be heading in what

22 direction as we turn to the right?

23 A. Towards Prijedor.

24 Q. The building that we see, the side of the building, is this the Local

25 Commune you were speaking of, the long building with the rectangular

Page 2482

1 windows?

2 A. Yes, this would be the movie theatre, the cinema.

3 Q. In fact, the building with the windows below and above that would be

4 the side of the school?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. If we could be stopped here, please? We have seen a film of a visit

7 by Penny Marshall and in part of that film she showed tents that were

8 erected in the field next to and behind the school building. Do you

9 recall those tents being erected?

10 A. Yes, I do remember it.

11 Q. When did that happen, when were those tents erected?

12 A. Well, it was a day or two after Keraterm inmates arrived in

13 Trnopolje, in fact, when this wire fence fell.

14 Q. Who erected those tents?

15 A. The inmates themselves, trying to make some kind of a makeshift

16 shelter.

17 Q. What types of materials did they use to do that?

18 A. Anything they could come by around the area.

19 Q. If we could continue the film, please? Were there also tents behind

20 the school as it was shown, as it went behind it?

21 A. Yes, the tents stretched towards the school and then behind the

22 school, between the school and the cinema, and next to the cinema.

23 MISS HOLLIS: If that film could please be stopped and rewound back to the

24 black portion and I will ask for it later, please.

25 (To the witness): At this time I would offer Prosecution Exhibit 204 for

Page 2483

1 identification and this would be document 40/35. If that could be

2 shown to the witness, please? Do you recognise that building?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What is that building?

5 A. In the foreground, one sees the side wall of a shop in Trnopolje and

6 in the background is the part of the building which housed the

7 surgery, the outpatient unit in Trnopolje.

8 Q. If that could be put on the overhead? Your Honour, I would offer

9 Prosecution Exhibit 204?

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

11 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection, your Honour.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 204 will be admitted.

13 MISS HOLLIS: As we look at that building and we look at the front portion

14 of the building which is to our left, the white portion, is that the

15 store that you spoke of earlier?

16 A. Yes. (Indicated) It is this building here.

17 Q. The back portion of the building is where your medical clinic was

18 located, is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you point to the area of that back portion where your medical

21 clinic was located?

22 A. It was here.

23 Q. It appears that there are three windows there, is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Those windows then would have looked into the area that was your

Page 2484

1 medical clinic?

2 A. No, these are windows of the corridor which passed by the premises of

3 the medical -- of the outpatient clinic.

4 Q. So your clinic would have been on the other side of the court or

5 where these three windows were?

6 A. Yes.

7 MISS HOLLIS: If I could offer or have this marked as Prosecution Exhibit

8 205 for identification and shown to be the witness? This will be

9 document 40/29. (To the witness): Dr. Blazevic, does that photograph

10 depict the back portion of the store building, the connecting hallway

11 and the building in which the cinema is located?

12 A. Yes.

13 MISS HOLLIS: I would offer Prosecution Exhibit 205.

14 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 205 will be admitted.

16 MISS HOLLIS: If that could be placed on the overhead projector, please?

17 (To the witness): Dr. Blazevic, looking at this photograph, could you

18 again point out for the court the back part of the store building?

19 A. This would be the back of the building which houses the shop.

20 Q. The building or the portion of that building where the medical clinic

21 is located is where?

22 A. It would be here.

23 Q. If you look at the connecting portion between the store building and

24 the cinema, what was located in that connecting portion that appears

25 red to us here on the photograph?

Page 2485

1 A. You mean this part here?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. In this part was the former laboratory of the outpatient clinic in

4 Trnopolje. Then another room which, as far as I know, belonged to the

5 Local Commune before and that would be all.

6 Q. This laboratory, did you ever use that as a laboratory while you were

7 at the camp in Trnopolje?

8 A. No.

9 MISS HOLLIS: If that exhibit then could be provided to the Registrar,

10 please? (To the witness): Dr. Blazevic, while you were at Trnopolje

11 camp were there guards who guarded the camp?

12 A. Yes there were.

13 Q. These guards who guarded the camp, what did they wear?

14 A. They had uniforms on.

15 Q. Did they carry weapons?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you know any of these guards who guarded the camp?

18 A. Yes, most of them.

19 Q. The guards that you knew, where were they from?

20 A. They were either from Prijedor or surroundings, villages around

21 Trnopolje.

22 Q. The guards that you knew, what was their ethnic group?

23 A. Serbs.

24 Q. Do you know how many guards worked at the camp?

25 A. There were very many points, I do not know.

Page 2486

1 Q. Do you know how many shifts of guards there were at the camp?

2 A. Do you mean how many groups alternated or how often they changed?

3 Q. How many groups alternated?

4 A. Three or four different groups of guards which alternated.

5 Q. Do you know how long they would work in a shift?

6 A. It varied.

7 Q. Were there guards who were working at the camp 24 hours a day?

8 A. Yes, there were.

9 Q. In addition to the guards at the camp and to Kuruzovic, the camp

10 Commander, were there other individuals who worked at the camp on a

11 regular basis?

12 A. There were.

13 Q. Could you tell us who these people were?

14 A. Well, for instance, Slavko Puharic, who, to our knowledge, was Deputy

15 Commander, and then there were the Red Cross, they came daily.

16 Q. The Red Cross, do you mean the International Red Cross?

17 A. No, Prijedor Red Cross.

18 Q. Who was in charge of the Red Cross there at Trnopolje camp?

19 A. Pero Curguz.

20 Q. Did you know him from before the camp?

21 A. No, I did not.

22 Q. What did the Serbian or the Prijedor Red Cross do for the detainees

23 at the camp? What services did they provide?

24 A. None.

25 Q. Other individuals who worked at the camp?

Page 2487

1 A. I did not understand the question.

2 Q. I am sorry, were there other individuals who worked at the camp in

3 addition to the ones you have mentioned?

4 A. I cannot remember.

5 Q. All right. Were there other medical individuals who came to the camp

6 and worked there?

7 A. Yes, there were.

8 Q. Who was that?

9 A. Well, there was a physician, Dusko Ivic, and a paramedic, a medical

10 assistant, who was with him and whom they called Mica.

11 Q. This doctor, Dr. Dusko Ivic, did you know him from before the camp?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you get to know him while you were at the camp?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. How did you become acquainted with him?

16 A. Well, he would drop by the camp every day. From Dr. Idriz Merdzanic

17 I learnt his name because this was a man whom he knew before and with

18 whom he had worked before.

19 Q. Did you learn his ethnic group as well?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What was that?

22 A. Serb.

23 Q. You said he came to the camp every day. Did this medical assistant,

24 Mica, come to the camp every day as well?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2488

1 Q. What medical services did they provide to the detainees at the camp?

2 A. None.

3 Q. Did they tell you what their position was and why they were in the

4 camp?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What did they tell you?

7 A. Dr. Dusko Ivic said that a Crisis Committee in Prijedor had made him

8 responsible for looking after the hygiene and health situation in the

9 camp.

10 Q. You have indicated that Kuruzovic had authority to allow people to

11 leave the camp. Did anyone else at Trnopolje camp have the authority

12 to allow detainees to leave?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Who was that?

15 A. From time to time the camp could be left with a certificate issued by

16 Dr. Dusko Ivic certifying to the poor state of health of that

17 individual or a certificate issued by the Red Cross in the camp.

18 Q. In addition to the guards in the camp and these personnel that you

19 have just named, while you were in Trnopolje, did others come to the

20 camps, soldiers come into the camp?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. While you were in Trnopolje camp, did these soldiers have any

23 difficulty in getting access into the camp?

24 A. No.

25 Q. The soldiers who came to the camp, did you know any of these

Page 2489

1 soldiers?

2 A. Yes, most of them.

3 Q. The ones that you knew, where did they come from?

4 A. They came from nearby villages.

5 Q. To your knowledge, what was their ethnic group?

6 A. Serbs.

7 Q. What did they wear?

8 A. Uniforms.

9 Q. I am sorry I did not hear the translation.

10 A. Uniforms.

11 Q. When they came to the camp were they armed?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I believe you indicated earlier in your testimony that one of the

14 soldiers who came into the medical clinic later visited Trnopolje and

15 you learned his name, Ljubo Stojanovic. How often did Ljubo

16 Stojanovic visit the Trnopolje camp?

17 A. I saw him once or maybe twice.

18 Q. You indicated when he came to the camp at some point he told you that

19 he was from Serbia?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you recall a conversation with him in which conversation he told

22 you he was living in Kozarac at the time he was talking with you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What did he tell you about his living in Kozarac?

25 A. Well, that was during this conversation when we talked about where he

Page 2490

1 came from and he said he was from Belgrade, but that he also lived in

2 Kozarac.

3 Q. Did he show anything that had an address on it?

4 A. Yes, as I was rather surprised as I knew more or less all people, all

5 the people who lived, at least, in that part of Kozarac which he had

6 mentioned. I said that I could not believe it, that I did not know

7 him, and then he showed me his ID and there was the address.

8 Q. Do you recall what part of Kozarac that address indicated?

9 A. It was Marsala Tita Street and I do not remember the number.

10 Q. Do you recall where it was located on Marsala Tita Street?

11 A. Well, he tried to explain it to me and it should be approximately in

12 the part close to Mutnik mosque.

13 Q. To your knowledge, the people who had previously lived in that area

14 near Mutnik mosque, what was the ethnic group of those people?

15 A. Muslims.

16 Q. This identification card he showed you that had his address in

17 Kozarac on it, do you recall the date of that identification card?

18 A. I remember it because that was one thing which sounded very odd and

19 we talked about it later, the date was of some four or five days

20 before the attack on Kozarac, I believe it was 19th May.

21 Q. During the time that you were in the camp at Trnopolje, were there

22 any Serb officials who visited the camp there?

23 A. Yes, once an army officer came to the camp.

24 Q. Do you recall his name?

25 A. I remember it, Slobodan Cumba.

Page 2491

1 Q. Do you know why he visited the camp?

2 A. He came to the surgery, introduced himself, and said that he was in

3 charge of the security situation in that part of the Prijedor

4 municipality.

5 Q. While he was at the medical clinic talking with you, do you recall

6 him making comments about ethnic cleansing taking place in the Kozarac

7 area?

8 A. Yes, he was very frank and said, well, Kozarac fared as it did

9 because, allegedly, there were extremists there and did not surrender

10 the weapons. Brdo turned over the weaponry and will fare the same;

11 and he also spoke that, had it occurred to somebody to carry -- it had

12 occurred to somebody to carry out ethnic cleansing and that that was

13 what would happen.

14 Q. You mentioned that another area would have the same fate. Did he

15 mention anything about a place called Biscani?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What did he say about Biscani?

18 A. He said: "They returned the weapons over and yet they will suffer

19 the same lot as you".

20 Q. What happened to Biscani?

21 A. Seven days later that area was also cleansed.

22 Q. When he was talking with you, he used the term "cleansing"?

23 A. I believe so.

24 Q. We have looked at the buildings that were part of the camp at

25 Trnopolje. Do you recall, were there structures across the street

Page 2492

1 from the camp?

2 A. In the immediate vicinity of the camp were some private houses,

3 residential houses.

4 Q. Did camp personnel ever use those homes for any purposes?

5 A. Some of them.

6 Q. Do you recall which homes were used by camp personnel?

7 A. One of them was right across the street from Trnopolje school where

8 the army was stationed; why, I do not know. There was also another

9 house which was a little further away from the camp towards Kozarac on

10 the right-hand side, and this was a building which officially housed

11 the premises of Slobodan Kuruzovic, where he worked.

12 MISS HOLLIS: If we could play the second portion of Prosecution Exhibit

13 203, please?

14 (The video was played)

15 If we could stop here, please? This structure that has the

16 green awning on it, do you recognise that structure?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did any camp personnel use that structure?

19 A. Yes, during a period of time there was the Red Cross on the one side

20 and on the other side, that is, in the other part of that house, was a

21 post, a duty post, and the military.

22 Q. What had this house been before, if you know?

23 A. It was a private pub.

24 Q. You said that at one point the Red Cross used a portion of this

25 house. Where was the Red Cross located before it used this building?

Page 2493

1 A. It was in the offices of the former Local Commune in Trnopolje, and

2 within the grounds of the camp we could see it on a former, on an

3 earlier picture.

4 Q. That would have been the building in which you said the cinema was

5 located?

6 A. Yes, yes, in the front part.

7 Q. Thank you. If we could go forward, please? If we could stop here?

8 This area, was there any sort of use made of this area next to this

9 cafe house?

10 A. Right where this woman is standing on both sides of the fence was a

11 military checkpoint, a sentry post.

12 Q. If we could continue the video, please? If we could stop the film

13 here, please? This two-storey red structure, do you recognise that

14 structure?

15 A. This brick ---

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. -- this building made of bricks? Yes.

18 Q. Was that structure used by any of the camp personnel?

19 A. This is a house that Slobodan Kuruzovic used.

20 Q. If we could shut off the video, please? Could you tell us during the

21 time that you were at Trnopolje, were there a group of medical

22 personnel who worked in the clinic with you during that entire time?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you tell us who those people were?

25 A. You mean to list their names?

Page 2494

1 Q. Yes, the medical personnel who worked with you the entire time.

2 A. Those were doctors Idriz Merdzanic, Jusuf Pasic, Mensur, myself, and

3 my colleague, Hase Dzonlagic, and then a veterinary, medical

4 assistant, Mujo Zulic and a nurse, Sabiha Islamovic.

5 Q. You have mentioned Mensur, what was Mensur's last name?

6 A. Kusuran.

7 Q. Did all of these individuals you have named leave Trnopolje with you

8 when you left?

9 A. No, we were leaving at difference intervals.

10 Q. Were any of them taken from Trnopolje to other camps?

11 A. Yes, two physicians, Dr. Jusuf Pasic and Dr. Mensur Kusuran, were

12 taken to Omarska.

13 Q. We have had evidence, as I said, of the Penny Marshall visit. I

14 would ask that a portion of Prosecution Exhibit 184 be played. That

15 was a portion of that visit. It would be the portion showing the

16 medical clinic at Trnopolje. If we could stop that there, please?

17 Can you tell us, please, we are looking at a gentleman here with a

18 white coat on who is missing part of his right arm. Could you tell us

19 who that person is?

20 A. He is a paramedic, Mica.

21 Q. This is the paramedic who would come to the camp with Dr. Ivic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The gentleman that is walking toward Mica, that is Dr. Idriz, is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2495

1 Q. If we could move forward, please? If we could stop it here? This

2 gentleman in the white coat to our left, who is that?

3 A. This is Vasif Gutic who was also with us in Trnopolje.

4 Q. Was he a doctor as well?

5 A. He was a student of medicine and was about to graduate actually.

6 Q. If we could now move to the next portion of that tape, the last

7 segment, please? If we could, please, move forward through that to

8 the -- if we could stop there, please? Dr. Blazevic, is this yourself

9 that we are seeing on the screen?

10 A. Yes, that is me.

11 Q. You were speaking with Penny Marshall at this time, is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What were you telling her about at this time?

14 A. I was trying to say that there was a group of people missing because

15 until that moment all the inmates from Keraterm had been transferred

16 to Trnopolje, as far as we knew, and half of the inmates kept at the

17 Omarska camp, and another half was taken from Omarska to a direction

18 which we did not know about, and we had only heard that they had been

19 sent to Manjaca.

20 Q. During a very short portion of her visit, Penny Marshall was able to

21 speak with you and other medical personnel in private, was she not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. During that small portion of time, were you able to speak freely with

24 her?

25 A. No.

Page 2496

1 Q. Why not?

2 A. I was too afraid.

3 Q. What did you think would happen to you if you spoke freely about

4 Trnopolje camp?

5 A. Well, that they would kill us.

6 Q. Who did you think would do that?

7 A. Soldiers.

8 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, this may be a good time to break.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

10 (11.37 a.m.)

11 (The court adjourned for a short time)

12 (11.55 a.m.)

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, would you like to continue, please?

14 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour. (To the witness): Dr. Blazevic,

15 before the break we were talking about the medical personnel who had

16 come to Trnopolje camp with you. Did the woman Gordana also come to

17 the camp with you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How long was she held at Trnopolje?

20 A. She was at the camp for perhaps 10 days and then after that she was

21 taken home.

22 Q. Who took her home, if you know?

23 A. She told us that her brother came to pick her up.

24 Q. During this 10 day period or so that Gordana was in Trnopolje camp

25 with you, do you recall any unusual incident in which she may have

Page 2497

1 been involved?

2 A. I remember that once when two men were beaten in the lab premises in

3 Trnopolje, one of them told us that in the room where they were

4 located, one female in a lab coat came in accompanied by two soldiers

5 and they talked about something between them.

6 Q. The women in Trnopolje who wore such lab coats, do you know who these

7 women were?

8 A. Only the three of us, myself, Sabiha Zulic and Gordana.

9 Q. Did you and Sabiha discuss this information that had been provided to

10 you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Had you gone into that room when the man was being beaten?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. To your knowledge, had Sabiha gone into that room?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Who was the man who told you about this incident?

17 A. I think it was Nedzad Jakupovic.

18 Q. When you first arrived at Trnopolje camp were there already detainees

19 at the camp?

20 A. There were many people there at that time.

21 Q. During the time that you were in the camp, did other people arrive at

22 the camp, other detainees?

23 A. Yes, the situation in Trnopolje was chaotic at all times. There was a

24 large fluctuation of people. There was a group of maybe 1500 to 2,000

25 men who were there at all times and, in addition to this, people,

Page 2498

1 civilians, women, children were brought in all the time, and from

2 there they were deported to other places.

3 Q. During the time that you were in the camp, did you know any of these

4 other detainees in the camp?

5 A. Yes, most of them.

6 Q. To your knowledge, what was the ethnic group of the detainees in this

7 camp?

8 A. They were almost all of them Muslim and a couple of Croats.

9 Q. What were the relative age groups of the personnel in the camp, the

10 detainees?

11 A. It was quite varied, from 15 or 16 year olds to elderly people.

12 Q. These people who were brought into the camp, where did they come

13 from?

14 A. They were from surrounding villages.

15 Q. Did the Serbs ever say anything as to why these people kept coming

16 into the camp?

17 A. The Serbs were always saying that we were there, in fact, so that

18 they could protect us from Muslim extremists.

19 Q. These people coming into the camp from the surrounding villages, what

20 did they tell you as to why they were in the camp?

21 A. They told us they were there because they were brought there.

22 Q. Brought there by whom?

23 A. By the military.

24 Q. Did they tell you what had happened to their villages and their

25 homes?

Page 2499

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What did they say had happened to their villages and their homes?

3 A. The story was almost always -- the story that was repeated was almost

4 always the same. The military would come and order the people to

5 leave their houses in a very short time. Usually, they would kill

6 several people, and the rest of the people were sent to the camp in

7 Trnopolje.

8 Q. These soldiers who came to the villages and ordered the people to

9 leave and kill some of the people, did these detainees tell you that

10 these were Muslim soldiers who did this?

11 A. No.

12 Q. What ethnic group were the soldiers who did this, according to the

13 detainees?

14 A. Those were Serb soldiers.

15 Q. From the camp could you see fires in the surrounding areas during

16 your time in Trnopolje?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. From what areas or villages could you see these fires?

19 A. For a long time one could see the fire in the direction of Kozarac,

20 in all of the villages surrounding Kozarac and the hills that were

21 turned towards Kozarac.

22 Q. The villages from which these detainees came, to your knowledge, what

23 was the ethnic group of these villages?

24 A. Muslim.

25 Q. These areas from which you could see these fires, to your knowledge,

Page 2500

1 what was the ethnic group of the inhabitants of these areas?

2 A. Those were Muslim villages.

3 Q. While you were held at Trnopolje camp were you ever allowed to leave

4 the camp?

5 A. I left the camp several times.

6 Q. Did you ever, in fact, go back to Kozarac?

7 A. Twice.

8 Q. The first time that you went back, when was that? How many days or

9 so after you had arrived at the camp?

10 A. It was two or three days after I arrived to the camp.

11 Q. Why did you go back to Kozarac on that occasion?

12 A. We asked them to take us at least to the building of the medical

13 centre in Kozarac so that we could try and see whether any medicine

14 were left there, that we could use to help people that were there.

15 Q. Who took you there?

16 A. We had military accompany us to the Kozarac.

17 Q. When you arrived at Kozarac, the area of the town that you could see,

18 did the condition of the town appear any different than when you had

19 been taken from it on 26th May?

20 A. No, it was not significantly changed.

21 Q. Your second visit then back to Kozarac, when did that occur?

22 A. It took place perhaps at the end of June.

23 Q. On this second trip to Kozarac why did you go there?

24 A. We wanted actually to try and retrieve the documents, our documents,

25 our personal documents, that seemed very important to us at that time,

Page 2501

1 and none of us took any of those documents with us before.

2 Q. On this second occasion how did you get from Trnopolje camp to

3 Kozarac?

4 A. On the bicycle.

5 Q. So you took a bicycle from the camp to Kozarac?

6 A. Yes, we came close to Kozarac on a bicycle.

7 Q. Then when you were close to Kozarac did you then have an escort for

8 the rest of your trip?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. This escort, you got the escort at what point?

11 A. I came on a bicycle to the place on the road between Kozarac and

12 Trnopolje which is quite close to the intersection with the new Banja

13 Luka road that we used to call "Suhi Brod".

14 Q. Is it at that point that you had the escort?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. This escort, was this escort one of a group of soldiers who were at

17 this point?

18 A. Yes, one of the soldiers was present on that road.

19 Q. You were actually able to go into Kozarac?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How far were you able to walk in Kozarac on that date?

22 A. On that day I went on foot through Kozarac and I reached Mutnik

23 mosque.

24 Q. On this second trip to Kozarac was the condition of the buildings in

25 the town significantly different than your earlier trip?

Page 2502

1 A. Yes, that time, at that time Kozarac was completely destroyed.

2 Q. When you say that Kozarac was "completely destroyed", did you see any

3 buildings in the town that appeared to be relatively undamaged?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What buildings were those?

6 A. Those were mostly the houses of the Serbs that were along that road.

7 Q. Along Marsala Tita?

8 A. Yes, on Marsala Tita Street and on another street that leads towards

9 -- that leads from the orthodox church to the medical centre.

10 Q. These homes, the Serb homes, that were undamaged, did you know the

11 owners of these homes?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who were these Serb owners?

14 A. On that street I saw the house of Bozo Dragicevic, the house of Dusko

15 Tadic, the house of Drago Coprka, Mirko Grahovac.

16 Q. These houses were all relatively undamaged?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did any of these houses you have just mentioned have signs on them or

19 writing of any kind on them?

20 A. Yes, it was quite typical for those -- all of those houses to have a

21 sign that explained that the house belonged to the Serbs.

22 Q. On the houses you have mentioned, for example, Bozo Dragicevic, did

23 you see such a sign on his house?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you recall what that sign said?

Page 2503

1 A. It would say either "This is Serbian" or "This is" -- or it would say

2 "This is a Serbian house", but mostly "This is Serbian".

3 Q. On the house and cafe of Dusko Tadic, did you see such a sign?

4 A. Yes, it said, it was written on one side, I do not recall from which

5 side, "A Serb house, do not touch".

6 Q. The other two houses that you mentioned, Grahovac and the other

7 gentleman, did those two houses have signs on them as well?

8 A. Yes, on the house of Mirko Grahovac, there was a drawing, a typical

9 drawing, of Serbian cross with four Sís, and on the house of Drago

10 Coprka, there was a big Serb flag.

11 Q. Again when you say the four Sís, you are talking about the four

12 Cyrillic Sís?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is it correct that in the normal alphabet or the Latin alphabet,

15 these Cyrillic Sís would somewhat resemble the letter "C"?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You have mentioned those four houses that were not destroyed. Did

18 you also have occasion to see the Serb church?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you notice any damage to the Serb church?

21 A. I do not -- I do not recall that it was damaged. It was not.

22 Q. Did you see any of the mosque in Kozarac?

23 A. I saw Mutnik mosque.

24 Q. What was its condition?

25 A. It was ruined.

Page 2504

1 Q. Did you see any Muslim homes at all that were left relatively intact?

2 A. There were only two or three along that road.

3 Q. Where were those two or three located?

4 A. One was in the downtown centre of Kozarac itself. I remember when I

5 came back to the camp I was trying to explain to people there that it

6 was an old house, a small old house that was intact. I was told it

7 belonged to an elderly couple called Hasimic. I do not know those

8 people.

9 Q. The other two Muslim homes that were relatively intact, where were

10 they located?

11 A. One was located near the pastry shop that I mentioned before, and the

12 third one was much further near the intersection of the road Banja

13 Luka/Prijedor.

14 Q. These Serb houses that you mentioned, the four Serb houses, that were

15 relatively undamaged, what was the condition of the houses on either

16 side of these Serb houses?

17 A. They were burnt.

18 Q. Do you recall another occasion when you left the camp with a military

19 escort and on that occasion saw the village of Kamicani burning?

20 A. Yes, I remember.

21 MISS HOLLIS: If the witness could please be shown Prosecution Exhibit 79

22 again? If you could, please, look at that map for a moment to locate

23 Kamicani? If that could be put on the overhead, please? Could you

24 please show the court the area you are referring to as Kamicani?

25 A. It would be an area here.

Page 2505

1 Q. If we could zoom in on that a little bit, please?

2 A. Yes, it is this area here.

3 Q. If we could zoom in on that a little bit, please? I am looking at

4 that and I do not see any village in that area that is called

5 Kamicani.

6 A. This whole area that went from Kozarac, when you leave Kozarac, and

7 take the old road towards Banja Luka, about 500 metres after Kozarac,

8 all of this area consisting of villages people would call "Kamicani"

9 ---

10 Q. Would you show ---

11 A. -- in a wider sense of the word.

12 Q. -- us the area that people would refer to as "Kamicani"?

13 A. (Indicated). It would be from here, from this intersection that is

14 located here, and this road that leads to Brdjani. Actually, all of

15 this area and encompassing Softici, Alici, Rustici, Kesici, Donji

16 Forici and all the area until Rustici would be called "Kamicani" in a

17 wider sense of the word, including this area on the right side of the

18 new Banja Luka road.

19 Q. All right. Then would you show for us again this area of Kamicani

20 that you saw burning when you were taken from the camp by this

21 military escort?

22 A. It could have been the area which is located here.

23 Q. Do you recall the comment that the soldier made about this burning in

24 Kamicani?

25 A. The comment was, "When something like this, today Cigo are cleansing

Page 2506

1 Kamicani and they will not be taken prisoners".

2 Q. "Today", I am sorry, would you repeat that? I do not understand the

3 translation. The comment was what?

4 A. The comment was, "Today, Cigo's people or Cigo and his people are

5 cleansing Kamicani. They will not be taken -- there will not be any

6 prisoners".

7 Q. On some of your other trips out from the camp at Trnopolje, did you

8 go into the village of Trnopolje to look for supplies?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who would escort you when you went into the village looking for

11 supplies?

12 A. If we went into the gardens surrounding the camp Trnopolje, we would

13 go out without an escort and maybe stay in the area of 200 and 300

14 metres around the camp that had the guards, but if I went any further

15 than that, and that was mostly to help Serbian inhabitants, Serb

16 inhabitants that were there or if any of the animals needed

17 assistance, in that case I would have a military escort.

18 Q. These times that you went into the village of Trnopolje, what did you

19 see while you were in this village looking for supplies?

20 A. We would usually see that the houses that we passed by or that we

21 entered, which also happened if we went looking for the medicine that

22 perhaps was still in the houses, and that was at the times when we

23 also had the escort, we could see that people left the houses in an

24 incredible rush. The houses were totally, in a total chaos and mess.

25 We could see that some furniture was missing, all the doors were

Page 2507

1 open, all of the houses had the doors widely open.

2 Q. What type of condition were the houses in? Were they damaged, were

3 they not damaged?

4 A. They were not damaged.

5 Q. Did you know the owners of any of those houses?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Those people that you knew, what was their ethnic group?

8 A. Muslim.

9 Q. The owners that you knew, were any of those people in the camp at

10 Trnopolje?

11 A. Some of them, yes.

12 Q. While you were out in the village of Trnopolje, did you ever see

13 looting being carried out at any of these houses?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who was doing this looting?

16 A. Usually the soldiers.

17 Q. What types of things were they taking?

18 A. They were taking everything, from furniture to little household

19 items, food that they found in the houses.

20 Q. While you were out in the area of Trnopolje, the town of Trnopolje,

21 did you ever see any abandoned Muslims' homes that were being occupied

22 by other people?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you know the owners of those homes?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2508

1 Q. To your knowledge, where were the owners of those homes?

2 A. Those houses specifically, I knew a house that I knew that somebody

3 had occupied, the owner of that house was in the camp in Trnopolje.

4 Q. Did you have an opportunity to actually speak with the persons who

5 were now inhabiting that home?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you learn what their ethnic group was?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What was that ethnic group?

10 A. Those were Serbs from Slavonska Pozega.

11 Q. Do you know where that is, how far away that is from Trnopolje?

12 A. I do not think it is more than 400 to 500 metres.

13 Q. Is this a town or a neighbourhood, Slavonska Pozega?

14 A. I am sorry, I apologise. I did not understand the question. I

15 thought you were asking me whether I knew where that house was

16 located.

17 Q. So the house was located 400 to 500 hundred metres from the camp and

18 the persons living in the house, the town from which they had come, do

19 you know how far away that was from Trnopolje?

20 A. I could not tell you exactly, but more than 100 kilometres probably.

21 Q. Did these individuals tell you why they were in this house?

22 A. I remember they said that they also had to leave their houses, and

23 that they had a much bigger and a much prettier house than the one

24 that they got there.

25 Q. You indicated that you would also leave the camp to go to provide

Page 2509

1 veterinary services. When you left the camp for these purposes, what

2 villages would you go to?

3 A. Usually, those were Serb houses around Trnopolje. So I once went to

4 Hrnici; a couple of times I went towards the village of Babici,

5 Nisevici, or other villages that were on the road towards Prijedor,

6 for example, Baltici.

7 Q. The condition of these Serb houses where you went, what was the

8 condition of those houses?

9 A. They were normal, not damaged.

10 Q. I believe you indicated that at the Trnopolje camp while you were

11 there, there were approximately 1500 to 2,000 men who were kept there

12 permanently, is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And that other people were brought in from surrounding villages which

15 had been cleansed?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. These people who were brought in from these surrounding villages, how

18 long did they normally stay at Trnopolje camp?

19 A. It varied, sometimes two, sometimes three or four but usually not

20 longer.

21 Q. Three or four what?

22 A. Days, I am sorry.

23 Q. Then after this three or four-day period, what was done with these

24 people?

25 A. At that time they would be transported further.

Page 2510

1 Q. How, what means of transport were used?

2 A. The first several groups, as we called them, convoys, were

3 transported by the rail road, by the trains; whereas afterwards the

4 convoys were transported on the road using the buses and the trucks.

5 Q. These transports by train, what types of railroad cars were used to

6 transport these people?

7 A. Mostly freight cars.

8 Q. These buses and trucks that were used, were these civilian buses,

9 civilian trucks or military buses and trucks?

10 A. Civilian.

11 Q. The people who were transported on these convoys, were they a mixed

12 group or were they predominantly women and children?

13 A. Mostly women and children.

14 Q. What was done with the men who were brought to Trnopolje camp?

15 A. The men, we either did not know what happened to them and where were

16 they, or they were previously killed in villages or they were taken

17 and remained in one of the camps.

18 Q. So these groups who were coming into the camp from surrounding

19 villages were predominantly women and children?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The camp itself, I would like to ask you some questions about the

22 conditions at the camp. First of all, what were the conditions like

23 as far as hygiene is concerned?

24 A. They were impossible. We had no running water at all during the

25 whole time we were there. The water was brought for the whole camp,

Page 2511

1 it was brought from one well.

2 Q. The temperatures while you were in the camp that summer, was the

3 weather very hot? Was it warm or was it cool that summer?

4 A. I remember that the first part of the summer was rainy and then after

5 that it was very hot.

6 Q. What about the toilet facilities for the detainees?

7 A. Because there was no water, insufficient water, the existing toilets

8 in the school in Trnopolje could not be used and this is why in the

9 meadow right next to the house the toilets were constructed temporary,

10 temporary toilets.

11 Q. Were these open areas or were they enclosed areas?

12 A. Those were open, they were in the open, and the bricks that were

13 found in the buildings, storage, the people made maybe a fence that

14 were about, the fence that was about one metre tall, so that you could

15 not exactly see into there and then around it they dug out the

16 channels.

17 Q. What was the shelter like at the camp?

18 A. I am sorry, I did not understand the question.

19 Q. Shelter at the camp, what were the lodging conditions, the shelter

20 like at the camp?

21 A. Do you mean where the inmates were staying?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. We were in the premises of the medical centre and the rest of the

24 inmates were in the premises, on the premises, of the former

25 elementary school in Trnopolje; and the people that were brought in

Page 2512

1 were usually housed in the cinema building, and if all of them could

2 not fit into those premises, then they would spend that night in the

3 open.

4 Q. These were the people who were brought in temporarily from the

5 surrounding villages that were kept in the cinema?

6 A. I did not hear the first part of your question.

7 Q. These were people who were brought in temporarily from the

8 surrounding villages that were kept in the cinema?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The food at Trnopolje, how often did people have meals?

11 A. There were no regular meals at Trnopolje.

12 Q. How many times a day were people allowed to eat?

13 A. People ate what they could find themselves, or what the villagers,

14 while they still lived in their houses nearby brought them. As

15 regards the camp itself, there were no organised meals, only from time

16 to time, but it did not happen every day and there would be some

17 military portions, some soup was provided for the inmates.

18 Q. As a result of the conditions in the camp, did people develop any

19 illnesses?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What types of illnesses did they develop?

22 A. Well, the illnesses were usually the result of those appalling

23 hygienic conditions. Lice was everywhere, then scab and diarrhoea was

24 present to a large degree.

25 Q. The translation says that they had "lice" and then "scab". I am

Page 2513

1 sorry, I do not understand what you mean by "scab". Could you explain

2 that?

3 A. Scab is a skin disease -- do you want me to explain it?

4 Q. Are you talking about perhaps about scabies?

5 A. Yes, I am talking about scabies.

6 Q. You had indicated that people were brought to Trnopolje from Keraterm

7 and Omarska. Did you see these people when they were brought to the

8 camp?

9 A. I did.

10 Q. What was the general condition of these people brought from these two

11 camps?

12 A. Horrible, people were all only skin and bones. They looked like

13 skeletons, one might say.

14 Q. Were any of the people brought from Keraterm and Omarska brought into

15 the medical clinic?

16 A. Yes.

17 MISS HOLLIS: If I could have document 5/20 brought up on to the computer

18 screen, please?

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is this an exhibit that is in evidence?

20 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour. I would ask that this would be marked

21 Prosecution Exhibit 206 for identification. (To the witness): Do

22 you recognise this photograph?

23 A. Yes.

24 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, if the court wishes, we do have a photograph

25 itself that we can actually offer as the exhibit. This would be marked

Page 2514

1 as Prosecution Exhibit 206 for identification. Perhaps the witness

2 could be shown that photograph? You indicated that you recognised

3 this photograph. Who took this photograph?

4 A. Dr. Idriz Merdzanic.

5 Q. Where was it taken?

6 A. In Trnopolje.

7 Q. This individual that is shown on this photograph, was this one of the

8 men who was brought to Trnopolje from either Keraterm or Omarska?

9 A. Yes.

10 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I would tender Prosecution Exhibit 206.

11 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 206 will be admitted.

13 MISS HOLLIS (To the witness): Dr. Blazevic, at the time Dr. Idriz took

14 this photograph, do you know what this gentleman's state of

15 consciousness was? Was he conscious? Was he unconscious?

16 A. He was unconscious.

17 Q. This photograph showing this man, was this indicative of many of the

18 men who were brought to the camp from Keraterm and Omarska?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. This man is what? Is he lying down here?

21 A. He is lying on the table on which we examine patients in the

22 outpatient clinic itself.

23 Q. He is lying face down?

24 A. Yes, prone.

25 Q. If that photograph could be returned to the Registrar, please? During

Page 2515

1 the time that you were in Trnopolje camp, to your knowledge, were

2 people in the camp, detainees in the camp, beaten?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. To your knowledge, how frequently did that occur?

5 A. Daily, one might say.

6 Q. To your knowledge, where did these beatings occur, in what areas of

7 the camp?

8 A. In all of them, the school and from one could hear from people who

9 were there, in the building of the outpatient clinic itself, that is,

10 that office which used to be the laboratory once, then in a room which

11 was next to the laboratory and which was the office of the Local

12 Commune long ago.

13 Q. Beatings which occurred in the laboratory, were you able to hear the

14 sounds of those beatings as they were occurring?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What did you hear?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What did you hear?

19 A. I heard the lashes or screams, sometimes curses.

20 Q. Would you see detainees taken into that laboratory room?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Then when they emerged would you see them with signs of beatings on

23 their body?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When they were taken into these laboratory rooms and then taken back

Page 2516

1 out, who would take them in and who would take them back out?

2 A. Military.

3 Q. Do you recall on occasion where you were asked to come to the school

4 and to examine a detainee at the school?

5 A. Yes, I remember.

6 Q. Who was that detainee whom you were asked to examine?

7 A. It was Nedzad Jakupovic.

8 Q. When you examined him in the school what was his condition?

9 A. He was unconscious.

10 Q. Did you see any signs on his body at that time, any signs of

11 injuries, wounds, bruises?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. This beating that he had received, was that the only beating that he

14 had received?

15 A. No, this was the second round of beating.

16 Q. Where had the first round of beatings occurred?

17 A. The first time he was beaten in the laboratory which was next to the

18 clinic.

19 Q. How soon after this first beating were you called to the school to

20 see him as a result of his second beating?

21 A. A couple of days.

22 Q. When you saw him in the school, did you determine that he needed care

23 that you could not provide at the camp?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What were you concerned about that you felt he needed additional

Page 2517

1 care?

2 A. Well, since he was unconscious, Dr. Idriz Merdzanic (who was also

3 present) thought that his brain might have suffered some damage, and

4 thought that he might die if he stayed with us.

5 Q. Were you able to convince the personnel at Trnopolje to send him for

6 care somewhere else?

7 A. Dr. Idriz Merdzanic turned to Dr. Ivic, who was also somewhere on the

8 grounds of the camp there, and asked him to provide transportation for

9 the patient which he promised to do when he went to Prijedor. But

10 when we saw that Dr. Ivic had left for Prijedor and failed to take him

11 along, we turned to guards and said that Dr. Ivic had said that the

12 patient needed to be transported to Prijedor and they did it.

13 Q. Did you subsequently learn where this man had been taken after his

14 treatment in Prijedor?

15 A. Yes, we learned it. He was indeed taken to the hospital in Prijedor,

16 and we then learned that from there he was taken to the camp at

17 Omarska.

18 Q. After this gentleman had suffered the first round of beatings, did

19 you or one of the medical personnel take photographs of him?

20 A. Yes, we did.

21 Q. How soon after this first round of beatings were these photographs

22 taken?

23 A. A couple of hours later.

24 Q. As a result of this first beating, what types of injuries did the man

25 sustain?

Page 2518

1 A. He was so battered that we could not recognise him in the beginning.

2 Q. Did he have any type of injuries or wounds on his body in addition to

3 the bruises?

4 A. Yes, it was all covered in blood. One of his eyebrows was cut.

5 Q. Did he have anything that had been carved or marked on to his body?

6 A. In one part of his body, I cannot remember exactly where, one could

7 see, and he spoke about that, that somebody had tried to carve a knife

8 in him, but it was not a deep cut, a deep incision; it was more or

9 less a superficial one.

10 Q. What was the mark or symbol that had been cut superficially into his

11 body?

12 A. A cross.

13 Q. If I could have document 5/18 called up on the screen, and if I could

14 have this hard copy of this photograph marked as Prosecution Exhibit

15 207 for identification, please. If you could look at that photograph,

16 please. Do you recognise the person in that photograph?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who is that?

19 A. Nedzad Jakupovic.

20 Q. Is this one of the photographs that was taken of him by medical

21 personnel shortly after his first series of beatings?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Your Honour, I would tender Prosecution Exhibit 207.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

25 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

Page 2519

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 207 will be admitted.

2 MISS HOLLIS: I see a bandage over what appears to be the left side of his

3 face. What is under that bandage? What type of injury is there?

4 A. The skin and subcutaneous tissue were lacerated, had burst, next to

5 the eyebrow and we sutured it.

6 Q. If you look at his lower back, there is a very dark area there. What

7 were the injuries in that area?

8 A. They were bruises, bloody, very big ones.

9 Q. If I could have 5/17 marked as Prosecution Exhibit 208 for

10 identification, please. While we are looking at this -- if we could

11 put the photo back on that was previously on -- while we are looking

12 at this photograph, is there any place on this photograph that shows

13 that cross that was carved superficially into his body?

14 A. No.

15 Q. If you could please look at Prosecution Exhibit 208 for

16 identification. Do you recognise that photograph?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is that also a photograph of Nedzad Jakupovic that was taken shortly

19 after his first series of beatings?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. If you look at that photograph, the areas of colour there indicate

22 the bruising to his body?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Anywhere on this photograph can you see the cross that was carved

25 into his body?

Page 2520

1 A. I cannot remember where exactly, but I think it was somewhere in this

2 area, either to the side or in the front, somewhere in the shoulder

3 area. I know he asked us if it was visible and whether a scar would

4 remain.

5 Q. When he asked you that, was it visible to you?

6 A. Yes, one could see it, but I also remember that we told him that the

7 wound was not deep, and that there would probably be no scar, at least

8 not very visible.

9 Q. If I could have this document marked as Prosecution Exhibit 209 for

10 identification. This would be document 5/19. Is this Exhibit another

11 photograph showing the area of bruises on Nedzad Jakupovic's body?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. This is another of the photographs you took very shortly after his

14 first series of beatings?

15 A. Yes, I think so.

16 MISS HOLLIS: I would tender Prosecution Exhibit 209 for identification.

17 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 209 will be admitted. Did you want to admit

19 208?

20 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour, I would also enter Prosecution Exhibit

21 208.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to 208?

23 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 208 will be admitted.

25 MISS HOLLIS: If those photographs could be returned to the Registrar,

Page 2521

1 please. These beatings that occurred in Trnopolje camp, do you know

2 any of the guards who administered these beatings?

3 A. I knew them mostly by their nicknames.

4 Q. What were the nicknames of some of these individuals?

5 A. One was nicknamed Deba another one was called Darko. There was a

6 Mile and there was one called Mladen.

7 Q. Do you know where these guards were from?

8 A. Well, I know, for instance, that Darko was from Tukovi and Deba too.

9 That is an area in Prijedor.

10 Q. Do you know the ethnic group of these individuals you have named?

11 A. They were Serbs.

12 Q. Do you recall a man named Mujkanovic who was beaten at Trnopolje

13 camp?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Over what period of time did the beatings of Mujkanovic last?

16 A. He was beaten for a very long time, day and night.

17 Q. Did you see this man after this series of beatings were administered

18 to him?

19 A. I did.

20 Q. What was his condition?

21 A. I saw him only as they were taking him from the clinic by the window,

22 from the clinic.

23 Q. So he was being beaten in the laboratory area?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. During his beatings do you recall seeing Darko come outside and wipe

Page 2522

1 his feet on the grass?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you recall Darko saying something at that time?

4 A. Yes, he was swearing and wiping off his boots. He said that he was

5 bleeding.

6 Q. "He" being Darko was bleeding?

7 A. No, he swore at the mother of that person in the laboratory and

8 said,"Oh fuck his mother, how he's bleeding".

9 Q. When Mujkanovic was taken out of the laboratory, do you know in what

10 direction he was taken?

11 A. He was taken in the direction of the railway station in Trnopolje.

12 Q. Did you ever see Mujkanovic in the camp again after that?

13 A. No.

14 Q. That same night that Mujkanovic was taken to the fish pond, do you

15 recall seeing Darko come back to the medical clinic?

16 A. Yes, that night Darko came to us.

17 Q. What was his condition when he came back to the medical clinic?

18 A. He was drunk.

19 Q. Do you recall overhearing Darko talking to Sabiha Islamovic on that

20 occasion?

21 A. Yes, I remember.

22 Q. And what did he say?

23 A. Drunk. I believe it was his birthday that day and he spoke about how

24 it was his birthday that day, and how he was unhappy, how they were no

25 people at all, how they were worthless. He also said that he was

Page 2523

1 young, that he had done all sorts of things in his life, killed and

2 set on fire and slit throats, and that the only thing he had never

3 done before was rape.

4 Q. As you were listening to these comments, did you hear Sabiha make any

5 sort of comment back to this man Darko?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What was her reply?

8 A. She said, "Easy, sonny, you're young, there is still time to learn."

9 Q. Did that reply confuse you at all?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you ever learn what she meant by that?

12 A. No.

13 Q. When you indicated that Darko had said that they were no people at

14 all, they were worthless, to your understanding who was the "they" he

15 was referring to?

16 A. Well, he was sort of saying, "We, the Serbs".

17 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, this may be an appropriate time to break.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What was the ethnicity of the gentleman who is in

19 Exhibit 207, 208 and 209, Dr. Blazevic?

20 A. You mean Jakupovic?

21 Q. I do not recall the name.


23 THE WITNESS: He is a Muslim.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The second gentleman you mentioned, Mujkanovic?

25 MISS HOLLIS: Mujkanovic.

Page 2524

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The one that was taken away, did not see him any

2 more.

3 MISS HOLLIS: Mujkanovic.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What was his ethnicity?

5 THE WITNESS: Muslim.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

7 (Luncheon Adjournment)


9 (2.30 p.m.) PRIVATE

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, you may continue.

11 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour. (To the witness): Dr. Blazevic, at

12 the break we were talking about beatings that occurred at Trnopolje

13 camp and those individuals who actually engaged in some of those

14 beatings. I would like to ask you if you recall an incident in which

15 a guard came to the medical clinic after participating in a beating to

16 get his hand examined?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Why did he want his hand examined?

19 A. Immediately before that he was in the lab, immediately before that he

20 was in the lab, together with some other soldiers that were beating

21 the detainees in the lab, and probably during that he injured his hand

22 and he came in asking that we put a bandage.

23 Q. Was he concerned that his hand was broken?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you recall which guard this was?

Page 2525

1 A. I think it was a guard called Mladen.

2 Q. Mladen's ethnic group was what?

3 A. He was a Serb.

4 Q. During the time that you were at Trnopolje, all of the individuals,

5 all of the detainees, who were beaten at the camp, to your knowledge,

6 what was the ethnic group of all of these people?

7 A. Muslims.

8 Q. The individuals who were involved in actually perpetrating these

9 offences and beating these detainees, to your knowledge, what was the

10 ethnic group of these perpetrators?

11 A. They were Serbs.

12 Q. While you were at Trnopolje camp, to your knowledge, was anyone

13 killed at the camp?

14 A. On the grounds of the camp one woman was wounded who immediately

15 thereafter died, and one of the inmates who was beaten at the lab died

16 in the lab itself.

17 Q. Do you know the name of that detainee who was beaten in the lab and

18 then died as a result of the beatings?

19 A. I was told that it was -- his name was Talic Teufik.

20 Q. Did you actually see the body of Talic Teufik?

21 A. I only saw a body wrapped in a blanket.

22 Q. Did one of the medical personnel at the clinic tell you about this

23 body and who it was?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Who told you about this body and who it was?

Page 2526

1 A. I think it was at the same time when Nedzad Jakupovic was beaten, and

2 I think that I was told that by Nedzad Jakupovic himself, or by the

3 people who knew that he was taken with Nedzad Jakupovic.

4 Q. So Nedzad and Talic Teufik were taken together to be beaten?

5 A. They were brought into the lab at the same time and were beaten.

6 Q. It was after that that Nedzad told you that the other man had died?

7 A. No, we were not told that by Nedzad; we were -- the soldiers brought

8 Nedzad back to us, to the medical centre, so that we could help him if

9 we could, and that in the evening hours or night hours, this was in

10 the evening hours, and then in the morning they came to get Mujo, I

11 think he was called Mujo, and told him to remove the corpse that was

12 in the -- to remove the corpse that was in the lab.

13 Q. Who was Mujo?

14 A. Mujo Zulic.

15 Q. Did he work there in the laboratory or in the medical clinic with

16 you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. After he had removed the corpse then did he tell you who it was?

19 A. I do not remember that I have talked to him directly.

20 Q. All right. You mentioned a woman who was injured and then died. How

21 did you know about that incident?

22 A. She was brought into the medical centre as well after a shooting in

23 the camp.

24 Q. What did you see of this shooting incident?

25 A. That was an event in which a group of Serb soldiers that were

Page 2527

1 standing at the entrance to the camp, right next to a truck, probably

2 in negligence they shot out some bullets, as we heard later on, and

3 during that incident a soldier was wounded. After that the guards or

4 soldiers shot, fired very lowly, fired many times, throughout the camp

5 in Trnopolje, and during that one of -- the woman was wounded.

6 Q. This was the woman who was brought to your medical clinic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. She died as a result of those injuries?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you know what her ethnic group was?

11 A. She was a Muslim.

12 Q. Talic Teufik, did you know his ethnic group?

13 A. Muslim.

14 Q. While you were in Trnopolje, did you learn of detainees who were

15 taken out and made to dig graves and bury bodies?

16 A. Could you please repeat the question?

17 Q. Yes. While were you in Trnopolje camp did you learn of detainees who

18 were taken out of the camp and forced to dig graves and bury bodies?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How did you learn about this?

21 A. Those were usually groups, people, who were inmates in Trnopolje, and

22 the soldiers would from here to there take them out and ask them to do

23 certain things.

24 Q. Then how would you learn about what they had done?

25 A. After returning back they would tell us about where they were and

Page 2528

1 what they were doing.

2 Q. What did they tell you?

3 A. Usually, they were burying the corpse, the corpses that were around

4 the camp of Trnopolje.

5 Q. Did they tell you what sites or what areas they were when they buried

6 these corpses?

7 A. Yes, they would tell us about it, where, how many, and if they

8 recognised anyone they would tell us who it was.

9 Q. What areas did they tell you were the locations where they had buried

10 bodies?

11 A. Locations were different. For example, I remember that several times

12 it was in the area that is located right next to the railway station

13 in Trnopolje, in the area of Ribnjak fish pond. For example, it was

14 also in the parts of the camp, parts outside of the camp towards

15 Prijedor, simply all over in the area of -- perhaps one or two

16 kilometres around the camp.

17 Q. The victims that the detainees identified, to your knowledge, what

18 was the ethnic group of these victims?

19 A. Muslims.

20 Q. While you were in Trnopolje camp, did you learn of rapes that had

21 occurred in the camp and in the town?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Without mentioning the name of any victims, would you tell us,

24 please, from whom would you learn about these rapes that occurred?

25 A. We would hear usually from the mothers of victims and the victims

Page 2529

1 themselves.

2 Q. They would come to the medical clinic?

3 A. Yes, mothers would most often when very young girls, very young girls

4 were involved, the mothers would come in concerned about the health of

5 their daughters and concerned about the consequences and ask what

6 could they do about it.

7 Q. When you say "concerned about their health", what types of problems

8 would these young daughters have that the mothers were seeking advice

9 about?

10 A. Mothers were normally worried that the girls would have -- would

11 bleed profusely or, perhaps, become pregnant.

12 Q. Do you recall an incident in which eight mothers brought their eight

13 daughters to the clinic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What did they say had happened to these daughters?

16 A. I do not remember exactly how -- they simply did not talk openly

17 about it. They would normally ask, what could we do, "Our daughters

18 were taken out last night and they came back this morning and we are

19 worried they may have become pregnant or start bleeding. Do you have

20 something? Do you have any tranquilisers we could use?" and they

21 would ask similar questions.

22 Q. These daughters when they were brought into the clinic, what was their

23 mental or emotional condition?

24 A. Usually, they were crying and would not say anything.

25 Q. These eight mothers and eight daughters who came to the clinic, did

Page 2530

1 they indicate by whom they were taken out?

2 A. By the soldiers.

3 Q. Did they indicate where the sexual assaults had occurred?

4 A. They were taken out and taken towards Kozarac and it happened in a

5 truck.

6 Q. What were the age of these daughters?

7 A. Very young, 16, 17.

8 Q. What medical care, if any, were they given?

9 A. We would give them, if we had any tranquilizers, we would give them,

10 but in that specific case we turned to Dr. Dusko Ivic for help.

11 Q. Did he, in fact, allow these young women to be taken to Prijedor and

12 examined?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When they returned, did they tell you about their treatment in

15 Prijedor?

16 A. I do not remember exactly. I mostly know that they were taken back

17 -- they came back from Prijedor very shortly thereafter, and the same

18 day they were sent with a convoy that was leaving Trnopolje.

19 Q. When you talked to Dr. Ivic about this incident, did you complain to

20 him about the treatment of these eight young girls?

21 A. I think that Dr. Idriz did that.

22 Q. To your knowledge, did you learn of anyone being punished for these

23 sexual assaults?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Do you recall after this soldiers coming to the camp in a tank?

Page 2531

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. These soldiers who came to the camp in a tank, do you recall why it

3 was that they came to the camp?

4 A. It was an incident immediately after that. They asked, they

5 requested that the person who turned them in and reported that they

6 were raping, who reported that they did something similar, so they

7 looked for that person and they said, "we would kill everyone".

8 Q. After this had occurred, do you recall a conversation with Dr. Ivic

9 in which he cautioned you about causing problems?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. At that time what did he tell you?

12 A. He told us that we saw into what trouble, what trouble we caused, as

13 he said, what trouble we put them into, and he said it was best not to

14 know anything about it.

15 Q. Do you recall him making any comment about rape?

16 A. He said something like: "This is the war, this is what happens in a

17 war and there is nothing we can do about it".

18 Q. Do you recall an incident involving a 13 year old girl being sexually

19 assaulted?

20 A. Yes, this was during the day close by to the camp.

21 Q. Who brought her to the clinic?

22 A. Mother.

23 Q. What did they say had happened to her?

24 A. They said that a guard took her out, took her into the house that was

25 located across the street and raped her.

Page 2532

1 Q. So she said that a guard from the camp did that?

2 A. I did not talk to her, Gutic Vasif talked to her and to her mother,

3 and then told me this.

4 Q. The eight young women that you talked about and this 13 year old

5 girl, to your knowledge, what was the ethnic group of these young

6 women?

7 A. Muslim.

8 Q. Do you recall an incident when a woman who was an acquaintance of

9 yours came to you about a rape?

10 A. I remember that.

11 Q. What did she tell you had happened to her?

12 A. She just told me that one of the guards raped her near the camp in a

13 house and that she wants to show me what guard it was.

14 Q. Did she point out the guard?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was this a guard that you recognised?

17 A. Yes, one of the guards.

18 Q. To your knowledge, what was the ethnic group of this guard?

19 A. Serb.

20 Q. Do you happen to recall at this time the name of that guard, if you

21 ever knew it?

22 A. No, I do not remember.

23 Q. What, if anything, did you, medical personnel, at the clinic advise

24 young women and girls to do to try to escape being raped?

25 A. We would specifically say -- specifically it was that the women and

Page 2533

1 children that were brought from the surrounding villages were always

2 housed for one or two nights in the building of the cinema; and we

3 noticed that the soldiers during the night come in and take out some

4 of them and later we would learn that they were raped. Because of

5 that, we were always trying to advise at least younger women and

6 girls to spend that night in the school among the inmates because the

7 soldiers very rarely went there during the night.

8 Q. In addition to these rapes of young women who were in the camp

9 itself, did you learn about rapes in the village of Trnopolje?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How would you learn about these rapes?

12 A. It would be -- we would learn from the mothers who would come and

13 tell us that they are worried because soldiers took away the daughter

14 and did not bring her back the whole night. Usually, the mother would

15 ask us -- because she would think that we knew more about it -- she

16 would ask us who should she turn to for advice or ask us was there

17 something we could do about it.

18 Q. These women who came to you in that fashion asking for information or

19 advice, what was the ethnic group of these women?

20 A. Muslim.

21 Q. You have discussed several different incidents that occurred in

22 Trnopolje camp while you were there. While you were in the camp, were

23 you able to see every incident that occurred to detainees in the camp?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Were you able to see every Serb who came into the camp?

Page 2534

1 A. No.

2 Q. During the time that you were in the camp would it have been possible

3 for a Serb you knew to come to the camp several times and for you not

4 to see that person?

5 A. It would have been.

6 Q. Were you ever told why you, yourself, were in Trnopolje camp?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You have mentioned earlier that there was discussion that people came

9 to the camp or were brought to the camp to be protected from Muslim

10 extremists, is that correct?

11 A. Yes, they would always tell us that.

12 Q. To your knowledge, were there people you knew to be Muslim extremists

13 in Kozarac before the attack on Kozarac?

14 A. No.

15 Q. We spoke earlier about the fact that some people in Kozarac did have

16 weapons. Do you know how many weapons there were in Kozarac?

17 A. No.

18 Q. When you would go out into the town, would every person you saw,

19 every Muslim you saw, in the town have a weapon?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Would every man in the town, every Muslim man, you saw have a weapon?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Could you say that most of the men you saw had a weapon? I am sorry,

24 I did not hear the answer to that.

25 A. No.

Page 2535

1 Q. But you did see some individuals who had weapons, is that correct?

2 A. Yes, there were.

3 Q. Was there some type of long-standing Territorial Defence plan that

4 would place guards at important buildings in Kozarac in the event of

5 war or emergency?

6 A. There was a Territorial Defence plan -- I believe, at least, that

7 there was one.

8 Q. How did you know about such a plan?

9 A. Those plans existed during the existence of former Yugoslavia.

10 Q. How did you know about them? How did you know they were in

11 existence?

12 A. We would see them.

13 Q. Did you yourself have a duty assigned to you in case of emergency or

14 war under this Territorial Defence plan?

15 A. According to the Territorial Defence plan of the former Yugoslavia,

16 or do you mean any other period?

17 Q. Under the Territorial Defence plan that would have existed in the

18 former Yugoslavia in the event of war or emergency, did you yourself

19 have duties you were to carry out?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you have duties assigned to you under any other type of plan that

22 may have been devised in the spring of 1992?

23 A. No.

24 Q. In the spring of 1992, to your knowledge, were there guards at

25 important buildings in Kozarac?

Page 2536

1 A. Probably, yes.

2 Q. Did you yourself ever see such guards?

3 A. I do not know if I could call this "guards", but in front of my house

4 was one of the checkpoints where police and military were.

5 Q. Between the time period of the Serb takeover of Prijedor and the

6 attack on Kozarac, did you go out of your house after dark into the

7 town of Kozarac?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When you would be out at night during this time period, after the

10 Serb takeover of Prijedor, before the attack on Kozarac, would you

11 ever see men patrolling the town or guarding any buildings?

12 A. They were there, very likely, but I paid no attention.

13 Q. Prior to this conflict, were you or your husband a member of any

14 anti-Serb military or paramilitary organisation?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Were you or your husband a member of any organised anti-Serb

17 resistance group?

18 A. No.

19 Q. After the attack on Kozarac, did you or your husband become a member

20 of any such group?

21 A. No.

22 Q. At this time I would like to ask a few questions about a witness who

23 has appeared here in this court and the witness has been referred to

24 as "witness Q". When I ask these questions, please do not at any time

25 indicate the name of witness Q. It is correct, is it not, that you

Page 2537

1 have been informed of the name of witness Q?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. It is true, is it not, that you did have a passing acquaintance with

4 witness Q?

5 A. Yes, that is true.

6 Q. You would know witness Q, to see witness Q on the street perhaps

7 somewhere?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I would like to direct your attention to Sunday, 24th May when

10 Kozarac was attacked. On that date, do you recall seeing witness Q at

11 the medical centre?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In fact, do you recall sharing a cigarette break with witness Q on

14 that date?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you have any recollection at all of what witness Q was wearing at

17 the time you saw witness Q?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You have talked in your testimony here today about things that you

20 saw Dule Tadic do, and you have talked about your knowledge of Dule

21 Tadic and the fact that you had a passing recognition of each other or

22 you of him. I would ask you at this time to look around the courtroom

23 and if you see Dule Tadic in this courtroom, if you would, please,

24 point to Dule Tadic?

25 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We object to this dock identification again, your

Page 2538

1 Honour, for the same grounds as we did before.

2 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, we believe that this is a recognition witness,

3 that we have laid a sufficient foundation for this to be a recognition

4 witness. Therefore, we do not believe the issues that would arise

5 with an identification witness are present. We believe that this

6 would be an appropriate question to ask and it would be appropriate

7 for this witness to respond.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will rule the same way I ruled before. Proper

9 foundation has been made, just as it was made before. Therefore, I

10 will overrule the objection. The witness has indicated that she knew

11 Mr. Tadic before, and so I think a proper foundation has been made.

12 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you. (To the witness): Dr. Blazevic, would you look

13 very carefully around the courtroom and see if you see Dule Tadic in

14 the courtroom?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Would you please point to Dule Tadic?

17 A. It is the individual sitting between two policemen in the back row,

18 in the courtroom.

19 Q. Dr. Blazevic -----

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The record will reflect that the witness has

21 identified the accused.

22 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour, thank you. (To the witness): Dr.

23 Blazevic, you indicated that you left Trnopolje camp in August 1992.

24 How were you able to leave the camp at that time?

25 A. It was in mid August 1992 immediately after the International Red

Page 2539

1 Cross entered Trnopolje when the camp Commander, Slobodan Kuruzovic,

2 met me on the path in front of the camp itself where trucks and buses

3 were already parked to take away the next convoy, and he told me, "You

4 are going with this convoy."

5 Q. You were then taken with the convoy to Bosnian Muslim held territory?

6 A. Yes, close to that territory.

7 Q. How were you transported from Trnopolje camp?

8 A. From Trnopolje camp to a place on Vlasic Mountain, and people later

9 told me it was called Smetovi and we were taken there by buses and

10 then continued on foot.

11 Q. Dr. Blazevic, when you went to Trnopolje on 26th May, did you go

12 there because you truly chose to go there or because you had no real

13 choice in the matter?

14 A. I did not have any choice.

15 Q. In August, when you left Trnopolje, leaving behind your home and your

16 local area, did you leave because you truly wished to leave or because

17 conditions were such that you had no choice but to leave?

18 A. Because that was an order.

19 MISS HOLLIS: No further questions, your Honour.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff, is there cross-examination?

21 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, your Honour, there is.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Wladimiroff

23 Q. Dr. Blazevic, I have some questions to ask you, first of all, about

24 being interviewed: you have been interviewed by representatives of

25 the Prosecution office during five days in November 1994?

Page 2540

1 A. I talked to them on another occasion with representatives of the

2 official authorities of the country or the state that I live in at

3 present.

4 Q. You have signed a statement of that other interview?

5 A. That was my first interview. I signed the statement.

6 Q. Did you get a copy of that statement?

7 A. No, I did not.

8 Q. Thank you. Can you clear up a matter I am quite unsure of, and that

9 is when you started to practise in Kozarac?

10 A. When I began to work in Kozarac?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. In July 1983.

13 Q. Is it correct then that you moved to Kozarac in 1986, started to live

14 there?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You lived there up to May 1992, did you not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Are you aware of any period of absence of Kozarac of Dusko Tadic in

19 that period of time?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Let us return to 1983. It was put to you by the Prosecution that you

22 would have seen him in that year. Did you actually see him in that

23 year?

24 A. I should like to explain something here. I knew names of people, of

25 people in Kozarac, where they lived, their more or less family

Page 2541

1 situation, and the like. However, I did not think every day about the

2 accused, nor did I consider him such a close acquaintance to think

3 about whether I had seen him yesterday or today. It was merely a

4 person I met in passing. I knew where he lived, who was he was

5 married to, and perhaps some other things if they would become

6 interesting.

7 Q. If Dusko Tadic had been living abroad in these years or, at least, in

8 that period of time, 1986 up to 1992, you would have known, would you

9 not, or would you not?

10 A. It would be quite possible that I would not.

11 Q. Has Dusko Tadic ever visited your clinic?

12 A. I cannot remember that he did.

13 Q. Have you ever visited his house?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Have you ever been in his cafe?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You testified that on the third day of the attack, that is, Tuesday,

18 May 26th, you travelled to Trnopolje to negotiate with the Serb

19 authorities, did you not?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You also testified that the same day you returned to the motel where

22 the medical centre was located in Kozarac?

23 A. No, we did not return to the motel, but to the medical centre in

24 Kozarac.

25 Q. Right. Do you know at what time that was?

Page 2542

1 A. Before noon.

2 Q. What does that mean, "before noon"? Can you give us a more specific

3 time?

4 A. I know it could have been in the morning or noon, not later than

5 that, but under the conditions, my temporal orientation was very bad

6 because we had not slept for days -- for two nights already.

7 Q. Right. I am going to show you a map for identification. Could you

8 tell us what the map shows?

9 A. It should be a part of Kozarac, a central part of Kozarac.

10 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I would like to tender this exhibit, your Honour. I

11 think it will be D10.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: D12, the Registrar tells me. Any objection?

13 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Defence Exhibit 12 will be admitted.

15 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Could it be put on the elmo, please, the whole of it,

16 please? Thank you. (To the witness): Could you show on the map to

17 us where you walked from the medical centre, as you have testified, to

18 the intersection at the old Prijedor road?

19 A. If I understand this map, the medical centre ought to be here and in

20 that case we took this street here, and then this one which descends

21 down there.

22 Q. Thank you. Could you also point out on this map where the pharmacy

23 would be?

24 A. If this is the road leading from the medical centre and this is

25 Marsala Tita Street leading towards the intersection, then the

Page 2543

1 pharmacy should be here.

2 Q. Right. Can you show on the map where the house of Dusko Tadic could

3 be?

4 A. In that case Dusko Tadic's house should be roughly here on the other

5 side of the street.

6 Q. Could you point out to us where your clinic was, where you lived?

7 A. Then it would be here.

8 Q. Coming back to witness Q, and do keep in mind to refer to him as

9 "witness Q", have you any idea where witness Q lived?

10 A. I do.

11 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I may have a problem here doing this in open court, your

12 Honour.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I was wondering if the next question was, "Where,

14 show me on the map".


16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Can you handle the other cross-examination and then

17 we could go into closed on that area, if you want?

18 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes. If I may forget this, I will ask Mr. Kay to remind

19 me.


21 MR. WLADIMIROFF (To the witness): Let us go back, first of all, to where

22 you pointed out the medical centre on the map. Could you tell us were

23 there other houses in the neighbourhood of the medical centre that

24 were shelled? You can see in the map the houses, each house, located

25 on the map.

Page 2544

1 A. All along the road which we took from the medical centre towards the

2 intersection of the old road and Marsala Tita Street in Kozarac, one

3 could see the effect of shelling. There were either holes in the

4 asphalt and houses were also damaged by those splinters which fell and

5 some houses were hit directly.

6 Q. So if you would be so kind as to point it out again on the map,

7 starting at the medical centre, just how you walked and then tell us

8 what you saw, all these houses while you walked up that street?

9 A. We moved in this direction to the Marsala Tita Street.

10 Q. Stop here. So far, were all the houses you saw there shelled or hit

11 by shells?

12 A. By and large, there were signs of damage.

13 Q. If you continue on that road, Marsala Tita, you walk down to the

14 intersection with the old Prijedor road, did you not?

15 A. If we continue down the Marsala Tita Street, then we reached the

16 intersection with the old road.

17 Q. While walking on the Marsala Tita Street, did you see houses that

18 were shelled or at least hit by shells?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So am I right if I say that while walking from the medical centre up

21 to the pastry shop most of the houses you saw in that area were

22 shelled or hit?

23 A. Yes, yes, mostly all the houses in that area were damaged.

24 Q. Can you tell the court what caused that damage? Was that because of

25 the fightings in the street or was that the result of shelling from

Page 2545

1 out of the hills?

2 A. Shells.

3 Q. They were shot from outside the city on the city?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That happened during these three days or during the first two days?

6 When did that happen?

7 A. It happened from sometime on Sunday, around noon, when the shelling

8 started in Kozarac until the moment when we left Kozarac.

9 Q. Let us move to the pastry shop. Could you point out on the map where

10 that shop is? Could you point out the house which is drawn on the

11 map?

12 A. That ought to be here.

13 Q. Right. You were standing there with a group, were you not? How

14 many were in your group?

15 A. I think 12 or 13.

16 Q. How long had you been waiting there?

17 A. I do not know, half an hour perhaps, or it could have been 10 minutes

18 only. I do not know.

19 Q. While you were standing there with your group, you were looking at

20 what site? Were you looking at the pastry shop or were you looking at

21 the Marsala Tita Street or were you looking over the triangle, square?

22 In what direction did you look or did you look to each other?

23 A. Well, each other mostly. We did look around but such fear reigned

24 and I could not really define it. At any rate, we were standing and

25 talking.

Page 2546

1 Q. Were you able to move within your group or did you just stand as you

2 stood?

3 A. I do not understand the question.

4 Q. Were you able to move within your group or were you just staying

5 there not moving?

6 A. We did not move.

7 Q. How many people did you see on the triangle, square?

8 A. I do not remember.

9 Q. Were there lots of people or just some?

10 A. I remember there were two groups of soldiers, perhaps four or five

11 persons each. I remember that two soldiers were in front of a house

12 which was there by the road. There were also some soldiers by the

13 school, but whether there were very many or just a few, I could not

14 tell you.

15 Q. Were there just soldiers in these two groups standing in two groups

16 or were they moving?

17 A. The two groups were standing and some very few, some of them moved

18 about. Those two in front of that house moved about.

19 Q. Did you see anyone crossing who belonged to these groups of soldiers,

20 crossing the street or crossing the square?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you see people crossing on more than one occasion?

23 A. I do not remember. I do not think so.

24 Q. You testified that at a certain moment you looked up because someone

25 said, "There is Dule". Saying that you "looked up", would that

Page 2547

1 indicate that you were looking to the ground?

2 A. Highly likely.

3 Q. So, apparently, by this reference to "There is Dule", you were

4 triggered to look around; that was the only reason why you looked

5 around, is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. "Dule" is a Serb name, is it not?

8 A. Yes, a nickname.

9 Q. How many people do you know by the nickname "Dule" in those days?

10 A. A few.

11 Q. Could you point us out on the map where you saw this person that was

12 crossing that was referred to as "Dule"?

13 A. The map, it would be exactly here where these two small streets join,

14 right here.

15 Q. You testified that you saw him "just a few seconds", did you not?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you describe to us his appearance, how he looked?

18 A. He was dressed in a uniform. In one hand he had a weapon and the

19 other one was high up in the air, so it seemed as if he was talking to

20 someone or trying to draw someone's attention.

21 Q. Can you describe his face?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You further testified that you saw Dusko Tadic two days before the

24 attack?

25 A. That day or two before the attack, I know that he was still in

Page 2548

1 Kozarac.

2 Q. So you did not actually see him two days before the attack or did

3 you?

4 A. Two days, I cannot tell you for a fact that I saw him.

5 Q. So when was the last time you saw him before the attack?

6 A. I would try to explain again that the person that I see during the

7 day, I do not take that as a special event, I do not consider that a

8 special event, because generally this does not signify anything to me.

9 I have said before that I have known the accused one on a passing by

10 basis. So the person that I probably met daily, I would remember that

11 person only if there was something special about it.

12 Q. But you have no special recollection of meeting Dusko Tadic before

13 the attack on Kozarac, have you?

14 A. I saw him in the days immediately prior to the attack on Kozarac,

15 immediately before the attack on Kozarac, but what was the day when I

16 saw him last time, I truly cannot tell you that.

17 Q. Seeing him before the attack then, unspecified, just seeing him; have

18 you seen Dusko Tadic ever before in a uniform?

19 A. I do not remember.

20 Q. Have you ever seen him before with a gun, with a weapon?

21 A. It is possible that he had one, but I really did not notice that.

22 Q. You also testified that you recall a meeting or, at least, having or

23 shared a cigarette break with witness Q in the medical centre?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So I take it you smoked a cigarette together, did you not?

Page 2549

1 A. Yes, I think we did.

2 Q. Right. So how long would that take, to smoke a cigarette?

3 A. Whatever it takes, two or three minutes.

4 Q. Right. In order to testify you cannot recall what witness Q was

5 wearing at that time, can you?

6 A. No.

7 Q. So you smoked during two or three minutes a cigarette with him, but

8 you do not know what he was wearing?

9 A. I normally do not notice that unless there was something peculiar,

10 special, about it.

11 Q. Let us return back to this incident on the triangle square. You were

12 brought there with the group coming from the medical centre taken by

13 soldiers?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. While you were waiting there, the soldiers came again and they told

16 Nihad Bahonjic to go with them. I suppose you were all standing there

17 not moving, being afraid, were you not?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You did look to the ground when someone said to you, "That's Dule"?

20 A. No, nobody told me "This is Dule", we just heard a whisper saying,

21 "There goes Dule", which for us meant that somebody that we knew was

22 there.

23 Q. So when someone whispers "There's Dule", you looked up, saw in a very

24 split second or a few seconds a person in a uniform, you have no

25 recollection of his face, you cannot tell us, and you tell us that you

Page 2550

1 saw Dusko Tadic, did you not?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Dr. Blazevic, I suggest you were mistaken by thinking that you saw

4 Dusko Tadic at that intersection, were you not?

5 A. I do not believe that I was mistaken, because at that moment when I

6 looked around me, looking for a familiar face, I was not looking to

7 see the accused, but simply the person that was crossing the street

8 was him.

9 Q. Before you entered in this courtroom yesterday, did you have a

10 witness document giving you a layout of the courtroom?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Before you entered this courtroom yesterday have you been shown the

13 courtroom?

14 A. The courtroom, yes.

15 Q. Has it not been told to you where the parties were sitting, where the

16 Judges were sitting, where the accused is sitting?

17 A. I was told where the Judges sit, where the Defence sits, where is the

18 Prosecution and, as far as the accused is concerned, I was told that

19 he, the accused, may sit anywhere in the courtroom or not sit there at

20 all.

21 Q. Would you not suppose that the accused would sit on the side of the

22 Defence?

23 A. I have no need to suppose.

24 Q. You were shown, were you not?

25 A. I know him and it does not matter to me where he sits. I can

Page 2551

1 recognise him.

2 Q. He is to sit between two policemen, as you testified?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I think we are only left with this issue of the house of

5 witness Q, as far as I am concerned.

6 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I think, your Honour, after conferring with Mr. Kay, we

7 feel it might not be necessary, seeing the answers.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, very good. Have you finished your

9 cross-examination?

10 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We have finished the cross-examination.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Do you have any redirect, Miss Hollis?

12 MISS HOLLIS: Very quickly, your Honour.

13 Re-examined by MISS HOLLIS

14 Q. Dr. Blazevic, you have indicated that the shelling of Kozarac began

15 on 24th May and continued into 26th May. Were there periods when the

16 shelling of Kozarac was very heavy?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were there other periods when the shelling of Kozarac became very

19 sporadic and very light?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What was the period of time during which the shelling of Kozarac was

22 the heaviest?

23 A. The most intensive shelling was during the night, on Sunday the whole

24 day, on the night between -- in the night between Sunday and Monday,

25 and on Monday until approximately the afternoon hours, or the evening

Page 2552

1 hours.

2 Q. Then after that the shelling became much lighter?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. On Tuesday was the shelling very sporadic on that day?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. At what time of the day did you arrive in Trnopolje camp?

7 A. At the sunset.

8 Q. Do you have any idea how long it took you to travel from Kozarac to

9 Trnopolje camp?

10 A. I do not remember because at first we waited in Kozarac at the

11 intersection, and then we were taken to Zikina tavern where we also

12 waited, and then we were taken -- we were taken on an alternate road

13 to Trnpolje.

14 Q. Regarding witness Q, you have indicated that you saw witness Q on

15 Sunday, 24th; that you recalled sharing a cigarette break with witness

16 Q on that date. Do you recall on that date witness Q assisting with

17 preparations at the medical centre?

18 A. That was a group of young men from the neighbouring area that were

19 during those several days they were with us at the medical clinic

20 trying to help us with what we were doing there.

21 Q. Is it your recollection that witness Q was among that group?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When you were at the intersection on 26th May, was there anyone

24 obstructing your view, anyone or anything obstructing your view, when

25 you looked and saw Dule?

Page 2553

1 A. No.

2 Q. When you looked and saw Dule, the Dule whom you saw, was that the

3 Dule Tadic that you knew had a cafe and house on Marsala Tita Street

4 in Kozarac?

5 A. Yes.

6 MISS HOLLIS: No further questions.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff, do you have additional questions?

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Just one, your Honour. I will show the witness a paper

9 on which I have written the real name.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please?

11 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Sorry, I do apologise. I will show the witness, your

12 Honour, a paper on which I have written down the real name of witness

13 Q. I would like to ask her whether this is the name she had in mind

14 when we are talking about witness Q. I will show it to the

15 Prosecution, of course.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Show it to the Prosecutor, fine. Will the usher

17 please pick that up and show it to the Prosecutor and then we will put

18 it before Dr. Blazevic? Please put it flat down on the table and flat

19 on the table. Put it flat on the table.

20 Further cross-examined by MR. WLADIMIROFF


22 MR. WLADIMIROFF: That is the name you were referring to when talking

23 about "witness Q"?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you. No further questions.

Page 2554

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis do you have additional questions?

2 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I just have one question or perhaps two.

4 Examined by the Court

5 Q. Dr. Blazevic, you have testified about the hospital in Kozarac and I

6 have heard it referred to as a hospital, a medical centre and a

7 clinic. Would you tell me, what is it? Was it the only hospital in

8 town or in Kozarac, or tell me what it was, please?

9 A. Officially, it was called Health Centre in Kozarac, and it was a

10 building in which one could have a routine medical examination, where

11 one could have routine lab tests done, blood tests, and similar, that

12 also had some dental offices and that would be all.

13 Q. Did persons remain there overnight for treatment or for extended

14 periods?

15 A. No.

16 Q. There were no hospital beds there?

17 A. No, there were no beds.

18 Q. Was there a hospital somewhere else in Kozarac?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And no other medical clinic in Kozarac?

21 A. No -- I apologise, it is possible that, just as in Trnopolje, there

22 were premises within the Local Commune premises, there were offices

23 where doctors would see patients.

24 Q. But this was the only medical facility, I suppose, then in Kozarac,

25 is that correct?

Page 2555

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You have testified that you came back to Kozarac on two occasions

3 after you were taken to Trnopolje camp. My notes, at least, indicate

4 that the first time was two or three days after you arrived at the

5 camp, is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Then you came back a second time on a bicycle escorted by soldiers,

8 is that correct?

9 A. I was on the bicycle alone on the area from Trnopolje to Suhi Brod

10 because at that time that area was still inhabited by people that

11 lived here before the war, and it was -- the freedom was relatively --

12 the movement was relatively unimpeded there, and from Suhi Brod I had

13 a military escort.

14 Q. You were taken to Trnopolje on what date? Was it the 27th?

15 A. It was on 26th.

16 Q. So you would have come back the first time then around, whenever,

17 29th or so of May, is that correct?

18 A. Yes, possibly.

19 Q. OK. When did you come back a second time? That is what I really

20 wanted to ask you.

21 A. I cannot remember exactly but it must have been about 20 or so days

22 after that, maybe even more than 20 days.

23 Q. Were there any Muslims in town, in Kozarac, the first time that you

24 came back?

25 A. No.

Page 2556

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, do you have additional questions?

2 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff?

4 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess then for 20 minutes now and

6 then you may call your next witness when we return, Miss Hollis or Mr.

7 Niemann. Very good.

8 (3.50 p.m.)

9 (The court adjourned for a short time)

10 (4.10 p.m.)


12 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I call Nasiha Klipic.

13 NASIHA KLIPIC, called.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you please take that oath?

15 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will

16 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

17 (The witness was sworn)

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated. You may proceed, Mr.

19 Niemann.

20 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

21 MR. NIEMANN: Mrs. Klipic, where were you born?

22 A. Kamicani.

23 Q. Approximately how far is that from Kozarac?

24 A. I should say three to 3.5 kilometres.

25 Q. Did you attend primary school in Kamicani?

Page 2557

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I think you then attended a dress making course in Prijedor where you

3 graduated in 1979?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you then work in your family's private business?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where was that?

8 A. No, we did not have a private shop. We had our trucks, our tractors,

9 horses, and we used to transport building materials, timber, and so

10 on.

11 Q. Where was that private business or where was that business, your

12 family business?

13 A. At home.

14 Q. Yes. Was that in Kamicani?

15 A. Yes, yes, in Kamicani.

16 Q. If you put your headpiece on the top of your head it will stay in

17 place, I think, for you. You will not have to hold it. Did you stay

18 there until you were married?

19 A. Yes, until '87.

20 Q. Who did you marry?

21 A. Sahinuk Klipic.

22 Q. What did your husband do, what was his occupation?

23 A. He was a policeman.

24 Q. What sort of work in the police did he do? What was the area of

25 police work that he did?

Page 2558

1 A. My husband completed the traffic police school and he worked in

2 Prijedor police, depended on what there was to do, like any other

3 policeman around the town.

4 Q. I see. For how long did he work in Prijedor?

5 A. My husband worked until 29th April '92, between 29th and 30th, until

6 the power was taken over in Prijedor.

7 Q. What happened to him when the power was taken over in Prijedor?

8 A. My husband worked until 11 o'clock. He came to the Prijedor railway

9 station and from there the last bus was leaving at half past 11, but

10 the bus had not gone and he went into a tavern, into a place near the

11 railway station, and he asked some colleagues to take him home; they

12 were Rade Strika and Preradovic, and they said they had no time to

13 drive him home, and then he returned, went out on the road to Kozarac

14 and hitch-hiked some transport, and then he arrived home at about 2 or

15 3 o'clock. He said: "Well, I survived this, I do not think I will be

16 able to survive again another night like this".

17 Q. Did he then commence work as a policeman in Kozarac?

18 A. Yes. Since Muslims and Croats could not return to Prijedor to work

19 as policemen, then they all started working at the nearest place.

20 Q. In his case that was the Kozarac police?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. As a consequence of your husband's occupation, did you come to know a

23 number of police officers in the Prijedor region?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you also familiar with the some of the police that worked in the

Page 2559

1 Kozarac area?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In fact, although your husband worked in Prijedor, you lived in

4 Kozarac?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. If we could have photograph 6/6 brought up on the screen, please, and

7 would you look at this photograph that I now show you?

8 A. Yes, this is the -----

9 Q. I am sorry, but that should have been marked by the Registrar first.

10 Could it be marked as the next number in line, 210? Just looking at

11 the photograph that you have in front of you which is also displayed

12 on the screen, can you tell me what the photograph is or what it shows

13 in part?

14 A. We see crossroads here. There was a checkpoint where there were

15 policemen, Serb policemen. Until Sunday 24th, until the attack at

16 around 11 o'clock, that is where they were; and we lived in this house

17 here, and this big building is the printers.

18 Q. Yes. I tender that, your Honours.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection?

20 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 210 will be admitted.

22 MR. NIEMANN: Just looking at the photograph as it appears on the screen,

23 is your house the house that you can see in the far right of the

24 photograph, near the pole?

25 A. Yes. Now it is on the far right, yes.

Page 2560

1 Q. Just tell us again where is this?

2 A. Next to what is -- next to the Banja Luka/Prijedor highway, near the

3 petrol pump.

4 Q. Thank you. I tender that, your Honours. Perhaps that might be

5 handed back to the Registrar?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Were you in Prijedor just prior to the commencement of the attack on

8 that town in 1992?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Just prior to the attack, can you tell us where were you?

11 A. Prior to the attack on Kozarac, you mean?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. The 20th April '92, we went to the employment office since we were

14 out of work so I had to report every two months to the employment

15 bureau, so that was the day when I went there, on 28th April '92.

16 Q. But the attack on Kozarac is what I am talking about, not Prijedor.

17 Can you recall where were you when Kozarac itself was attacked?

18 A. Yes, I was visiting a colleague of mine, Marsala Tita Street, they

19 were Tinka and Fadil, Tinka and Fadil, that is where they lived. They

20 were our closest friends from Kuljani; and I was there, Thursday and

21 Friday, Saturday, until the attack.

22 Q. Can you remember what dates these were in 1992?

23 A. 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th.

24 Q. On 24th, were you with your husband?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2561

1 Q. About what time was the town of Kozarac attacked in the day, about

2 what time in the day?

3 A. I think it was, I am not sure, but perhaps 1.00 or 2 o'clock p.m.

4 Q. Were you with your husband at the time?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did your husband stay with you?

7 A. No, my husband left. When the siren sounded my husband went to the

8 police station.

9 Q. I see. Was your husband on duty that day?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What did you do when your husband left?

12 A. When my husband left, my colleague and I took my two children and her

13 child and her husband and we went to a shelter to Nafik Hamic. That

14 was the cellar of the house. That is where it was.

15 Q. Where was this cellar in this house that you went to? Was it in

16 Kozarac?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was it just somebody's, one of your neighbours' cellars, was it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What happened then once you went into the cellar?

21 A. Well, then a major fire began. The oddest thing in the world, the

22 hardest moment in one's life, shells were falling. It was very hard on

23 us. We were sitting there screaming, crying.

24 Q. At this stage you still had your children with you, did you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2562

1 Q. Approximately, how many people were with you in the cellar?

2 A. I think about 20, something like that.

3 MR. NIEMANN: Might the witness be shown Exhibit 196? If that could be

4 placed on the -- (To the witness): First of all, do you recognise

5 what that is?

6 A. Yes, I believe so.

7 Q. What is it? What do you recognise it as?

8 A. This is the Prijedor/Banja Luka road.

9 Q. Is it a plan, as you understand it, of Kozarac?

10 A. Yes, I think so.

11 Q. Would you put that on the screen and could you take up the pointer,

12 please, and looking at it would you point to, firstly, approximately

13 where your house was in Kozarac?

14 A. This is the intersection Prijedor/Banja Luka, Prijedor. I think it is

15 somewhere here.

16 Q. I see. Can you tell me where you went to where the cellar was, the

17 house that had the cellar that you went into and took protection,

18 approximately where was that?

19 A. I think up the Marsala Tita Street or high street. Here is the play

20 field and then towards the hospital. I think this is where one turns

21 to the hospital. The house was somewhere here. It was the third

22 building from the main street towards the hospital.

23 Q. So down the side street? Was it down the side? Was it in the side

24 street off Marsala Tita Street?

25 A. Yes, it was right next to -- if this is the high street and you turn

Page 2563

1 here, I cannot exactly remember, then I think you take this road.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not know whether it is terribly important, but

4 I am somewhat confused as to where the witness's house was and the

5 house that she went to where the cellar was, because when she moves

6 the pointer sometimes she does not stop when she means to stop. So

7 just take your time and tell us. It is important for us to

8 understand.

9 MR. NIEMANN: When you pick up the pointer, first of all, I would like you

10 to go back to where your house was on that plan and just leave it

11 still at that spot.

12 A. My house was, if this is -- I really have a problem. If this is the

13 high street and you turn up there, so my house could have been here at

14 this intersection; if I go from Prijedor to Banja Luka, it was on the

15 right-hand side, and if I go from Banja Luka to Prijedor, on the

16 left-hand side.

17 Q. I want you to assume -- if you are a bit confused just say so because

18 we can take it more slowly -- that going to the left is going towards

19 Prijedor and going to the right on that road is going towards Banja

20 Luka.

21 A. I am lost. I simply am lost. I know it is here but on which side it

22 is, I do not know. As a matter of fact, it is on that picture.

23 Q. OK. It is in that general area, that is where your home is, if you

24 can say that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2564

1 Q. All right. Can you go back and tell me where it was that you went to

2 when the attack started and you went into the cellar? Can you

3 possibly point that out on the map?

4 A. I think I go here, this is the school, and I think I turn here, this

5 is -- and we move towards the hospital. Am I following the right

6 direction? Yes, I go towards the hospital.

7 Q. The little square with the "H" in it, assume that for a moment is the

8 hospital, does that help you?

9 A. Yes, I think I was here, yes, right in the middle.

10 Q. Thank you. Might that exhibit be returned, your Honours? How long

11 did you stay in that basement?

12 A. We stayed there until Monday morning, until 8 o'clock. It was the

13 25th.

14 Q. What happened on Monday morning, 25th?

15 A. The military had already entered Susa and Kozarac down there to the

16 asphalt, and some people ran up to us and told us to take our children

17 and run towards the woods. But as the shelling was going on, we did

18 not dare come out of the shelter, it was dangerous; and we,

19 nevertheless, decided it was better to be killed by a shell than be

20 slaughtered, or whatever they did.

21 Q. When you give your evidence, can you give it very slowly because it

22 has to be translated and otherwise people cannot translate it if you

23 talk too fast. So when you answer my questions, could you do it as

24 slowly as you possible can?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2565

1 Q. So you decided with these other group of people that you would go

2 into the woods. Where did you go? In which direction did you go?

3 A. We went towards Brdjani, towards Kozara, it is called Brdjani and

4 then Krtavina and then there was a youth hostel up there that we went

5 -- well, all in all, we went to the woods.

6 Q. When you say "we", how many people approximately were in your group?

7 A. Well, we, I was driven by a neighbour who had a green Mercedes and my

8 children and my colleague's child and his mother and they came later.

9 Q. By this stage had you seen your husband?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Would you look, please, at the photograph that I now show you and

12 might photograph Z5/21 be brought up on the computer screen, please.

13 Just before you do that, could you mark that copy, have the Registrar

14 mark that copy, please?

15 Looking at that photograph, what is it a photograph of?

16 A. This is my husband and his two brothers and sister-in-law and his

17 colleague, a Serb policeman. My brother-in-law was roofing -- was

18 putting the roof on his house so they had a party. They were

19 celebrating it.

20 Q. The original photograph that you have there in front of you that is

21 being shown to you is the only copy that survived the attack in

22 Kozarac, is that right? It is the only copy you have?

23 A. Yes, I do have some more but this one I was given by my

24 sister-in-law. I have none of my own.

25 Q. I see. Your Honours, I tender the copy rather than the original,

Page 2566

1 although the original is available for inspection and we can make

2 available copies from the computer which produces quite reasonable

3 reproductions of that.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If the witness wishes to retain the original?

5 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to that?

7 MR. WLADIMIROFF: None whatsoever.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Exhibit 211 then will be admitted.

9 MR. NIEMANN: Now perhaps those photographs could be returned?

10 (To the witness): Once you went away in the green Mercedes Benz, where

11 did you finally arrive? Where did you finally come to?

12 A. We arrived at a house, it is called mountaineers' home, and we got

13 off there and he returned to fetch other people, those who had stayed

14 behind in the shelter.

15 Q. Were there a number of people gathered at this place?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What did you do when you got to this place?

18 A. We did not know where to go. In the forest, shells were falling on

19 the forest, so we went to some bushes and we hid there, but they could

20 see us there so that is where the attack was the most ferocious.

21 Q. How long did you stay at this place?

22 A. We stayed there until the evening when it became dark.

23 Q. The evening of 25th or 26th?

24 A. The 25th.

25 Q. What happened then?

Page 2567

1 A. Then we left to Adil, Adil and Nasiha Jakupovic had their summer

2 cottage there. There we spent the night.

3 Q. These were friends of yours, were they?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What happened after that, after that night? Did you continue to stay

6 up in the mountain?

7 A. Yes, we stayed there until Tuesday afternoon.

8 Q. When you say Tuesday afternoon, that is 26th?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What did you do then?

11 A. We could not stay up there any longer because of the shelling,

12 because of the fire and ---

13 Q. So what did you do?

14 A. -- and then we decided, since we were a large group, I do not know

15 how many, to go towards Vidovici. There was a small Serb village, I

16 do not know how many houses, but it was a very small one and it was

17 not shelled.

18 Q. Are you able to give any estimate of the number of people that were

19 moving down towards Vidovici?

20 A. I think we were very many, I cannot say 2,000 or 3,000, but it was a

21 long column.

22 Q. In this group were there women and children and men?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were these people, people from the surrounding area of Kozarac?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2568

1 Q. When you got to the village of Vidovici -- just before I ask you

2 that, how far is Vidovici from Kozarac centre, approximately?

3 A. Five kilometres, approximately.

4 Q. When you got to Vidovici, what did you do then?

5 A. We arrived there, to Milan Vidovic's house.

6 Q. Did you take shelter there?

7 A. Yes, we spent the night there and we were there until Wednesday.

8 Q. This is Wednesday, 27th?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What happened on that day, Wednesday 27th? What did you do that day?

11 A. On Wednesday, 27th, we were with Vidovici's, the army had already

12 arrived at the Brdjani, to the mosque. They were setting everything

13 on fire. Houses were burning and then we realised there was nothing

14 else to do but to surrender, to go down and we decided to go towards

15 Kozarac.

16 Q. Did you have your children with you at this stage?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was your husband with you?

19 A. No.

20 Q. How did you travel down towards Kozarac?

21 A. I and my children were on a tractor.

22 Q. When you say you were on a tractor, were you sitting on the tractor

23 itself or a trailer that was being towed by the tractor?

24 A. On a trailer, we were on a trailer.

25 Q. Were some people walking and some on a tractor and some going by

Page 2569

1 other forms of transport?

2 A. Yes, some were riding in a car, some by tractors and some walked.

3 Q. Do you know the accused Dule Tadic?

4 A. Yes, very well.

5 Q. How long have you known him?

6 A. Almost all my life.

7 Q. Can you recall any circumstances in particular that you can recall

8 meeting the accused Dule Tadic, any particular circumstances?

9 A. Yes, I knew Dule. Sometimes he would say "Hi", sometimes we would

10 not, but I think that in 198 -- I think in 1985 or 6 in a tavern, in

11 "Neima".

12 Q. Did something happen there that you can especially recollect when you

13 think of Dule Tadic?

14 A. Yes. It was funny and weird.

15 Q. What happened, tell us, in this cafe in 1986?

16 A. I was with my brother and other friends there. I was in Bihac at a

17 wedding, and then we went back to Neima to have a drink.

18 Q. When you say "Neima", is that the name of the cafe, is it?

19 A. Yes, it was called "Neira".

20 Q. Where was that cafe, what town was it?

21 A. "Neira" was, I think, eight or nine houses down from the house of

22 Dule in the Marsala Tita Street.

23 Q. In Kozarac, was it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You went into this cafe after going to a wedding that you had

Page 2570

1 attended in Bihac?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What happened?

4 A. Well, we went and wanted to sit at a table. Dule Tadic and his

5 company, I do not remember who was there, but I think one of his

6 brothers was there. I wanted to sit down and the chair was behind me

7 and Dule pulled the chair away to try to make a joke.

8 Q. What happened?

9 A. I tried to sit down and I missed the chair and I fell down.

10 Q. I see. During your life, how often would you have seen the accused

11 Dule Tadic, on an average?

12 A. Very frequently, because I was frequently visiting taverns and cafes.

13 Q. Do you know where Dule Tadic lived?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Where did he live?

16 A. Dule Tadic lived in Kozarac. In Marsala Tita Street, there was a

17 restaurant and the house of Banda and he was next to Banda's house.

18 Q. Banda was his neighbour, was he, his immediate neighbour?

19 A. Yes, first neighbour.

20 Q. If you stood in Dule Tadic's house and faced Marsala Tita Street,

21 would Banda have been on the left or on the right-hand side of Dule

22 Tadic's house?

23 A. It would be to the left.

24 Q. Do you know who the neighbour was of Dule Tadic on the right-hand

25 side?

Page 2571

1 A. Yes. It was Suljo Mujagic and Adil Jakupovic.

2 Q. Looking directly across, if you stood in front of Dule Tadic's house

3 and looked directly across Marsala Tita Street, what would you see on

4 the other side of the road?

5 A. On the other side of the road there was a building, people lived

6 there. Below that building was another building which had a barber

7 shop, pharmacy and a textile store.

8 Q. Would you look at the photograph that I now hand to you and perhaps

9 it might be marked 212? Perhaps it might be brought up on the screen?

10 It is 49/15. Would you just look at the photograph that has been

11 handed to you there, and can you tell me, do you recognise that

12 photograph?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What is it a photograph of?

15 A. This here was a barber shop -----

16 Q. No, no. I am sorry. We cannot point to it on the screen because it

17 does not come through, we cannot see what you are pointing at. So if

18 you can just tell me what it is in your own words, if you would not

19 mind?

20 A. This is a building, upstairs is where the people lived, and on the

21 lower level -----

22 Q. Is that a photograph of the building that you just described a moment

23 ago as being opposite Dule Tadic's place, across the road from Dule

24 Tadic's place?

25 A. No, this is a little below there and the house that I spoke before

Page 2572

1 was a little bit above this.

2 Q. Tell me what that is a photograph of? Is that near Dule Tadic's

3 house, that photograph?

4 A. Yes, this is across from the restaurant. It is very close.

5 Q. I see, thank you. Is that the house that you were just describing a

6 moment ago?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. I tender that, your Honours.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

10 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection, your Honour.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 212 will be admitted.

12 MR. NIEMANN: Might that photograph be put on the elmo for me, please?

13 Perhaps it could be made larger. (To the witness): With the pointer

14 would you point, please, to the part of that building which is closest

15 to Dule Tadic's house if you were looking across the road? You cannot

16 point to the computer screen, I am afraid; you will have to point to

17 the elmo, this screen here.

18 A. I am sorry. This.

19 Q. That there? What is that? Is that a shop premises immediately above

20 your pointer that you have just pointed to, is that a shop?

21 A. No, this is a barber's shop.

22 Q. Yes, and is there a shop immediately beside that?

23 A. This is a pharmacy, and this is a textile shop.

24 Q. Above those shops do people live, do they?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2573

1 Q. Perhaps those photographs could be returned? Before the war in 1992,

2 did you know what Dule Tadic did for an occupation, for a living?

3 A. I know Dule as a coach, as a Karate coach.

4 Q. What about the premises where he lived, was there any business

5 attached to that premises?

6 A. Yes. In the last years he opened a cafe and had a private cafe.

7 Q. Do you know what the name of that cafe was?

8 A. No, I forgot. It was not interesting.

9 Q. Do you know what his father's name was?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What is his father's name?

12 A. I think Ostoja.

13 Q. Did you know his wife?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you know where she worked?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Where did she work?

18 A. His wife, Mira, worked at the medical centre, in the hospital.

19 Q. Do you know whether or not he had any family, any children?

20 A. Yes, Dule Tadic had two daughters.

21 Q. Approximately what age were they, roughly?

22 A. I remember that one was older, and the younger one was eight or nine,

23 like my son.

24 Q. That is eight or nine now, is it?

25 A. Younger, I think so, around that age and the older one, 12 or 13.

Page 2574

1 Q. Did you know any of his friends or any of the people he used to

2 associate with?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Are you able to name any of those people?

5 A. Yes. Dule Tadic was the most frequent friend of Emir Karabasic, Vaso

6 Crnogorac, Fadil Hrustic, Adil Jakupovic, and almost everyone in

7 Kozarac. He was on good terms with almost everyone, but those were

8 the people that I saw him most frequently with.

9 Q. Were those people that you mentioned Muslims?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you know whether Dule Tadic had any brothers or sisters?

12 A. I think he had two or three brothers. I mostly know him and his

13 brothers, not .....

14 Q. Did you ever have occasion to speak to Dule Tadic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was this only once or did it occasionally happen during the time that

17 you were living in Kozarac?

18 A. Well, many times. In passing by, we would say "Hello" to each other.

19 My brother, Envir, gave some lumber to Dule Tadic for his cafe.

20 Q. Your brother's name, Envir was his first name, what was his second

21 name, his surname?

22 A. Envir Alic.

23 Q. How old was your brother, Envir Alic?

24 A. My brother Envir was born in '49.

25 Q. What did he do in Kozarac? What was his occupation?

Page 2575

1 A. My brother, Envir, did not work in Kozarac. He worked in Sisak.

2 Q. I am sorry.

3 A. He was a truck driver.

4 Q. Have you seen your brother since the war, since 1992?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you know where your brother was taken shortly after the outbreak

7 of the war?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Where was he taken?

10 A. To Omarska camp.

11 Q. You have never seen him since?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you also have another brother, Ekrem?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Would you like to have a drink of water?

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We can take a few moments, Miss Klipic -- am I

17 pronouncing that right?

18 THE WITNESS: No, I am fine.

19 MR. NIEMANN: Your other brother, Ekrem, how old would he have been?

20 A. He was born in 55.

21 Q. Have you seen him since the war?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What of your husband, after that day he left in May 1992? Have you

24 seen your husband since that day?

25 A. No.

Page 2576

1 Q. We got to the point in your evidence where you had started to come

2 down in a trailer behind a tractor. Can you tell us what happened

3 then?

4 A. Yes, at that time the convoys started and we were going down from

5 Brdjani. The army was there. Everything was burning, houses,

6 mosques, everything.

7 Q. How far would Brdjani be approximately from the centre of Kozarac?

8 A. I think about two-and-a-half or three kilometres. Brdjani are quite

9 large.

10 Q. OK. As you came down, tell us what you saw?

11 A. When I came down, we came to the intersection Kozarac, in Kozarac,

12 and we started towards Prijedor -----

13 Q. This was Wednesday, 27th May 1992?

14 A. May, yes.

15 Q. Yes. Approximately what time of the day was it?

16 A. I think around 2 o'clock.

17 Q. I know it is very hard for you to estimate these things, but

18 approximately how many people were coming down in that column?

19 A. I can say that the column was from the intersection in Kozarac up to

20 the pastry shop, perhaps one or two kilometres long.

21 Q. OK. Did you see some military tanks and things of that nature in the

22 area or the vicinity as you came down?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What else did you see as you came down in that column?

25 A. We saw anything, everything, terrible things; dead people, cows;

Page 2577

1 houses burning; we saw many soldiers; policemen; tanks.

2 Q. The policemen that you saw, were you able to determine from looking

3 at them whether they were people you knew as Serb policemen or were

4 they some Serb and some Muslim policemen?

5 A. All Serbs; there were no Muslims.

6 Q. I see. What happened then?

7 A. Then we started towards Kozarusa. We walked towards Kozarusa and I

8 mostly paid attention to policemen.

9 Q. Why were you paying attention to policemen?

10 A. Because up until that day those were colleagues of my husband and I

11 knew them.

12 Q. Were you also looking for your husband as well?

13 A. Yes, I asked them if they knew something about my husband.

14 Q. Who did you ask?

15 A. When we -- when I went towards Prijedor when I was on the tractor,

16 there was a Golf car, a police Golf car, driving towards Prijedor.

17 Q. When you say "a Golf", do you mean a Volkswagen Golf car?

18 A. Yes, we used to call that police Golf.

19 Q. I see. What colour was this car, can you remember?

20 A. It was a police colour, blue and white.

21 Q. This was a car that you had from time to time become familiar with

22 because of your husband's duties as a policeman?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you see who was driving the police car that came towards you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2578

1 Q. Now as this police car came towards you, you were still in the

2 trailer, were you, behind the tractor?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was the police car coming up the same direction as you were going or

5 was it coming from the opposite direction?

6 A. Opposite direction.

7 Q. Did you have an opportunity to look at who was driving the police

8 car?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And who was driving it?

11 A. The driver was Brane Bolta.

12 Q. You had known him obviously prior to this day?

13 A. Yes, he worked for 10 years I think in Kozarac.

14 Q. He worked as a policeman?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What was his nationality or ethnic group?

17 A. Serb.

18 Q. Was there anyone else in that car that you recognised?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Who was ----

21 A. Brane Bolta and next to him was Dule Tadic and then Goran Borovnica,

22 and then I could not see if somebody was sitting next to Goran

23 Borovnica.

24 Q. So immediately beside the driver in the passenger seat is that where

25 you say you saw Dule Tadic?

Page 2579

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Where was Goran Borovnica sitting?

3 A. Goran Borovnica was sitting behind Bolta.

4 Q. For how long were you able to look at this police car?

5 A. It was just perhaps a minute or two. We were standing and they were

6 slowly driving because they could not drive fast.

7 Q. Did that police car stop at any stage or did it just slowly drive

8 past?

9 A. They slowly past us. I was yelling "Bolta, Bolta", of course I was

10 only interested in the policemen so could I ask them about my husband.

11 Q. Did Bolta appear to respond at all?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Approximately how close did you get at any one stage to that police

14 vehicle or how close did the vehicle get to where you were sitting at

15 its closest point, approximately?

16 A. Less than a metre, perhaps just half a metre because there was just a

17 white dividing line between us, between the tractor and the Golf car;

18 perhaps half a metre or 80 centimetres.

19 Q. Were the windows of the car opened or closed, can you remember?

20 A. I cannot remember; perhaps open a little bit.

21 Q. Did you recognise Dule Tadic when you first saw him or at some later

22 stage as the vehicle approached where you were sitting?

23 A. I recognised him then and afterwards.

24 Q. Did you know Goran Borovnica before this day?

25 A. Yes, Goran Borovnica was a waiter in the Red Rose tavern.

Page 2580

1 Q. Now at the time you saw this police vehicle in which you saw Dule

2 Tadic, what were the weather conditions like? Was it fine or

3 overcast, can you remember?

4 A. It was very warm.

5 Q. And the sun was shining?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was your view in any way obstructed at any time as this vehicle came

8 up and drove past you?

9 A. No. What do you mean?

10 Q. Well, did anything at any point as this vehicle was coming up to

11 where you were sitting and drive past, at any point did anything get

12 in your road or anything to stop you from seeing the vehicle, any

13 obstruction in your way during that period as it past?

14 A. No, I was happy to see a police car and learn the truth about my

15 husband.

16 Q. I think you said a moment ago that you addressed Bolta but he ignored

17 you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Had you seen Dule Tadic and Borovnica together on any previous

20 occasion?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Where had you seen them together?

23 A. In the taverns in Kozarac.

24 Q. Did you see them only occasionally or did you see them often or

25 perhaps you cannot say?

Page 2581

1 A. I cannot say that.

2 Q. Do you remember seeing how Dule Tadic was dressed, appeared to be

3 dressed when he was sitting in that car?

4 A. Yes, he had a camouflage uniform.

5 Q. What do you understand by a "camouflage" uniform? What sort of --

6 can you describe that?

7 A. It is the multi-coloured uniform. It is an unusual uniform because

8 until the war we did not have such a uniform.

9 Q. Now after that vehicle passed, what did you then do?

10 A. We went for a long time, perhaps an hour, until Kozarusa and Zikina

11 tavern.

12 Q. Kozarusa, is that on the road that goes between Kozarac and Prijedor?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How far would Kozarusa be, approximately again, from Kozarac?

15 A. I think about five kilometres.

16 Q. In this column that was going along the road that you were in at this

17 time, were some people walking?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were some people, as you were, travelling on a motorized vehicle?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Again, were there women and children in the group?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And men as well?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was there anyone guarding this column or walking with this column not

Page 2582

1 part of it at the same time as you were going along?

2 A. What do you mean, that Serbs guarded us?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. Yes, they were singling people out and killing them.

5 Q. Did you see this happen yourself or was this something someone told

6 you?

7 A. No, we saw when they were singling the people out, but they were

8 taking them into the houses or above the houses.

9 Q. When you say "Serbs", were they army, were they police or were they a

10 mixture?

11 A. It was a huge mix.

12 Q. Did you know what people in the, the uniform of a JNA officer looked

13 like, a JNA soldier looked like? Are you familiar with that uniform?

14 A. Very well.

15 Q. Did you see people who were dressed in a JNA uniform?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You were obviously familiar with the uniform that the police officers

18 or police wore?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you see people dressed in those uniforms?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Tell us again, how long did it take you to get from, say, Kozarac to

23 where you set off up to Kozarusa?

24 A. In those moments I do not know how many hours, but we travelled from

25 afternoon until evening. I think perhaps an hour and a half it took

Page 2583

1 us to get to Kozarusa.

2 Q. When you arrived at Kozarusa, what happened then?

3 A. The saddest, the worst things happened. They separated men from 15

4 to 65 years of age from their wives and mothers, children.

5 Q. When you say "they" you are referring to the Serbs, are you?

6 A. Of course.

7 Q. Can you tell us where it was in Kozarusa that this was happening?

8 A. In Kozarusa there was a bus station and I was standing precisely at

9 the bus station.

10 Q. Was this on the main road between Kozarac and Prijedor?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. At Kozarusa?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Apart from the bus station, were there any other buildings that you

15 remember around the area?

16 A. There was a Zikina tavern and a large, well, not large but a big

17 parking lot by the road, you know.

18 Q. Were there any vehicles there, any vehicles that had been parked

19 there?

20 A. Yes, there were very many vehicles. I think there was a tank, an

21 amoured vehicle, I cannot remember exactly, right by Zikina tavern.

22 Q. Apart from the amoured vehicle, were there buses and any other forms

23 of vehicles there that you could see?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The Serbs that were doing this sorting out, did you recognise any of

Page 2584

1 them?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Are you able to name any of them?

4 A. Let me try to remember, Mile Preradovic, Rade Strika, Ranko Durdevic,

5 Dule Tadic, Goran Borovnica, Tomo Stojakovic, Duro, I cannot remember

6 his surname, another traffic policeman. I mean there were almost all

7 policemen those whom I knew best.

8 Q. I see. Could you see what these particular people that you named

9 were doing at the time when you saw them?

10 A. Yes, they were separating men in three groups.

11 Q. What were the three groups?

12 A. Well, they were for Omarska, others for Trnopolje and some for

13 Keraterm.

14 Q. How did you know that this was the classification of each of the

15 groups, Trnopolje, Keraterm and Omarska?

16 A. We were not sure where they were going, but then I learned that they

17 were taken in that direction later.

18 Q. Again when you saw Dule Tadic, how far away from him were you when

19 you saw him?

20 A. It was about three or four metres, that was very near across the

21 asphalt and on that lot.

22 Q. When you first saw him were you standing, were you sitting? Can you

23 tell us where you were?

24 A. Sitting.

25 Q. Were you sitting in that trailer that you mentioned earlier?

Page 2585

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you still have your children with you at this time?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were the conditions, the lighting and so forth, still good at this

5 time so you could have a clear view?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Between where you were sitting and where you saw Dule Tadic, were

8 there any obstructions or anything that interfered with your view of

9 him?

10 A. No.

11 Q. For approximately how long were you able to look at him while he was

12 in that place?

13 A. We spent a lot of time there. For how long did we watch them? Well,

14 they moved around, "You, hey, you, don't go here, come on there". I

15 do not know the least. I mean I did not pay much attention to him. I

16 watched others more.

17 Q. I see. Did you hear Dule Tadic say anything at that stage?

18 A. Yes, he loudly asked Milos: "Where do I take these? Where do we

19 take these", and the other one, at any rate, they were both closely

20 co-operating there.

21 Q. When you say "Milos" who do you mean?

22 A. Milos the policeman, Milos Preradovic.

23 Q. Where was he from?

24 A. He was from, I would not know, Kernica or from where, but he had

25 spent in Kozarac a long time as a policeman.

Page 2586

1 Q. You said Goran Borovnica was there as well?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What was he doing?

4 A. The same as all the others.

5 Q. When you heard Dule Tadic talking there, did you recognise his voice?

6 A. What do you mean "recognise"? I saw him shouting "Hey, you".

7 Q. Can you tell us how he was dressed on this occasion when you saw him

8 at this stage?

9 A. Yes. He had a camouflage uniform,. He was bare headed.

10 Q. Was he carrying any arms that you could see?

11 A. Yes, an automatic rifle and a pistol with a belt.

12 Q. Did he have any other weapons on his person that you could see?

13 A. No, I did not see it. This I saw, I know these best because my

14 husband had an automatic rifle and a pistol.

15 Q. Did he speak to you at any stage while you were sitting there in that

16 trailer?

17 A. No.

18 Q. What happened then to you?

19 A. Brane Bolta approached and asked me if I had anyone in Prijedor to go

20 to. I said I did not and I wanted to go where my people went.

21 Q. Do you think Brane Bolta was prepared to help you if he could?

22 A. Well, perhaps just to show that he was a man of character.

23 Q. Yes. So, what happened to you when you said you had no one in

24 Prijedor that you could go to?

25 A. Then Brane Bolta was at the end of the column and Tomislav Stojakovic

Page 2587

1 and there was also a police car, I do not know which one, they took us

2 to the camp in Trnopolje.

3 Q. How far is Trnopolje approximately again from Kozarac?

4 A. I think about six kilometres from Kozarac to, it was also called

5 Kozarac but it is Trnopolje in fact.

6 Q. How did you get from Kozarusa down to Trnopolje?

7 A. We were following a road that I had never taken before in my life.

8 Q. I mean did you walk or did you go by vehicle?

9 A. The tractor again.

10 Q. The other people that were in the group that went down to Trnopolje,

11 were they taken in any form of motorized transport or did some of them

12 walk as well?

13 A. There were no more people; there were only women and children there.

14 Q. Do you know, again it is difficult for to you estimate, but

15 approximately how many women and children were in that group?

16 A. Very many, awfully many. I could feel from the way they cried I

17 could feel how many there were, because it was sadness, it was

18 terribly sad to look at because men were taken away and you were going

19 you did not know where.

20 Q. Were there any men in the group at all?

21 A. They only let those very advanced in age or somebody very young to

22 drive the tractor or horses or something.

23 Q. How long did it take you to get from Kozarusa down to Trnopolje?

24 A. We were going towards Donji Garevci, to Orlovci, Donji Garevci, and

25 then I do not know, an hour perhaps.

Page 2588

1 Q. Can you remember what time it was approximately when you arrived at

2 Trnopolje?

3 A. I know soon after the darkness came.

4 Q. When you arrived there what happened then?

5 A. We stayed there in the camp, that is in this place with wire and

6 there were very many, many people there already.

7 Q. Had you been to this place before, prior to the war, prior to 1992?

8 A. Every May 2nd we had a big popular outing there.

9 Q. The place where the camp was, what was it used for before it was used

10 as a camp?

11 A. There was a school, a shop, and there was a warehouse, a hardware

12 store, there was a centre.

13 Q. When you arrived at this place, did there appear to be people

14 guarding the camp?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know whether these people were Serbs or were they Muslims or

17 are you able to tell?

18 A. Yes, Muslims were inside the camp and the Serbs were guarding the

19 camp.

20 Q. Do you know whether they were members of the police or the army or

21 both?

22 A. Both.

23 Q. When you first arrived there where did you stay the first night?

24 A. A relative came to me and took me to the third house from, as one

25 goes from the camp towards Kozarac.

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1 Q. Did you have your children with you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How old were your children at this stage?

4 A. Two and a half and four and a half.

5 MR. NIEMANN: Is that a convenient time, your Honour?

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. On Tuesday we will be having an initial

7 appearance in another matter. I thought maybe you had seen the press

8 release, Mr. Wladimiroff, before us, but I can see it, so ----

9 MR. WLADIMIROFF: The Defence will not rely on hearsay evidence on that

10 matter!

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Of course, you have been very good about helping me

12 with things, but we will have an initial appearance on Tuesday, so we

13 will not begin until 11.30 on Tuesday. We will adjourn now until

14 tomorrow at 10 a.m.

15 (The court adjourned until the following day).