Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2590




4 Friday, 14th June 1996

5 (1 0.00 a.m.)

6 (Open Session)

7 MRS. KLIPIC, recalled

8 Examined by MR. NIEMANN, continued.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may be seated. Mrs. Klipic, you understand that

10 you are still under oath, do you?

11 THE WITNESS [In translation]: Yes.

12 MR. NIEMANN: Mrs. Klipic, yesterday you said in your evidence how the

13 people came down from the hill towards Kozarac and then the column

14 moved up towards the town of Kozarusa. Do you remember saying that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. That this took a considerable period of time because some people were

17 walking and some were travelling in motorized vehicles?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What was the nationality of the people in the column?

20 A. They were all Muslim, except for one Serb named Mirko.

21 Q. When you got to Kozarusa, apart from the people being sorted out into

22 the various different categories, those going to Keraterm, Omarska,

23 Trnopolje, was anything else done with the people at that point, that

24 you could remember?

25 A. What do you mean, where were they taken or?

Page 2591

1 Q. Were they searched?

2 A. Yes, they were all searched, women and men were searched.

3 Q. I see. Were any of the people in that column carrying arms that you

4 were able to see?

5 A. Yes, Serbs had arms but not us.

6 Q. Yes. The people in the column, I said, the people in the column

7 were not armed?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Were any of the people in the column offering any resistance to the

10 Serbs, as they brought them down to this place?

11 A. We had no arms because everyone who had arms, weapons, surrendered

12 them to the Police and to the Territorial Defence.

13 Q. Would you look at the photograph, please, that I now show you? Might

14 the copy be marked, please, but the original photograph shown to the

15 witness? Do you recognise the photograph that I am now showing you?

16 A. Yes, this is my brother, my older brother, Envir Alic.

17 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that photograph, your Honour.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection? That is Prosecution Exhibit

19 213, I believe. Any objection?

20 MR. NIEMANN: It is No. Z5/25 for the benefit of the Defence.

21 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection, your Honour.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 213 will be admitted.

23 MR. NIEMANN: Could the photograph itself, the original photograph, be put

24 on the screen, please? Thank you. Could it be expanded to the

25 fullest size that it can be done? (To the witness): Just looking at

Page 2592

1 that photograph on this video monitor, the video projector, not on the

2 screen in front of you, could you point to your brother, please, with

3 the pointer?

4 A. This is my brother Eno, Enver Alic, my older brother.

5 Q. Who is the lady that sits beside him there?

6 A. This is his wife, Kelima.

7 Q. She is nursing a child, is she?

8 A. This is their daughter, Azra. She is now 13.

9 Q. Did your brother, Enver, have a nickname by which he was known?

10 A. Yes, they called him "Eno".

11 Q. When was he born, can you remember?

12 A. In 1949.

13 Q. His ethnic group is Muslim, is it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So far as you are aware, is he still alive?

16 A. I do not believe so. I do not know. My father took out my brother,

17 Enver, from the Omarska camp.

18 Q. Your father was with Enver in Omarska, was he?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you ask your father whether he knew whether he was still alive?

21 A. My father, perhaps, is trying to console us but he always says: "You

22 should know Eno is not here any more."

23 Q. So far as you know, did he die or has he disappeared when he was in

24 Omarska?

25 A. No, my father brought Eno into a garage or a house, I am not sure

Page 2593

1 what was it, and Jasko, Emir was there. My father was returned after

2 he brought my brother to that room and -----

3 MR. KAY: Can I raise a matter of objection here, your Honour? There is no

4 evidence that this lady was in the place to which this incident refers

5 which is the camp at Omarska. As I understand it, the Prosecution are

6 now through her adducing evidence of what has been told by her father

7 to her. In our submission, that contravenes rules that would be

8 usually applied in many courts concerning hearsay. Perhaps the

9 Prosecution should argue before this court why this evidence should be

10 adduced in this form, and the court hear submissions on behalf of the

11 Defence about this matter.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Once again, I suppose, when you make your objection

13 on the ground of hearsay, I always responded by saying that our 10

14 rules of evidence do not prohibit the admission of hearsay. That is

15 not dealt with. Instead, the standard is relevant evidence that has

16 probative value. I will accept that your argument would be that, even

17 though that is the case, this lacks probative value, although it may

18 not be appropriate for me to think that is your submission.

19 MR. KAY: That is the foundation of it. I would be happier if there was a

20 debate -- submissions, rather than debate.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You mean filings, written filings?

22 MR. KAY: Exactly, your Honour, if this is to be the course that the

23 Prosecution are going to seek to use in adducing evidence in this

24 case. It is quite plainly the case and I, of course, have had a

25 statement from the Prosecution in relation to what she proposed to

Page 2594

1 say, and I know she was not in Omarska camp. What the court has heard

2 and the transcript I have, no doubt, clearly shows is that this is

3 information given to her by her father who was there.


5 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honours. I am not seeking to lead from this

6 evidence what it was that actually happened. The whole purpose of the

7 questions is to elicit from the witness whether or not she knows

8 whether her brother is alive, what enquiry she has made. It goes to

9 the issue of proof of death. I am not seeking to go any further than

10 that. It is merely just a question of did she know from her enquiries

11 where he died and did she make enquiries, and what the nature of the

12 enquiries that she made. She made enquiries of her father and what is

13 her belief as to where he died, that is, her brother. That is as far

14 as I wish to take the evidence, your Honour.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think she has already answered it. As far what

16 her father told her -- the problem -- I almost said this is double

17 hearsay, and Mr. Wladimiroff is looking at me, and I keep saying that

18 that hearsay is not a problem, at least in terms of admission as

19 hearsay before this Tribunal; the question is whether it has probative

20 value. It is certainly relevant. I gather her brother is the person

21 who is named in paragraph ---

22 MR. KAY: In the indictment.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: -- 6 of the indictment, so it is certainly relevant.

24 The question is whether it has probative value. If you are offering

25 it only on the question of death, and not as to who was responsible

Page 2595

1 for that death, I do not know whether there will be much prejudice.

2 Let me confer with my fellow Judges though and see.

3 They tell me that they entirely agree with me, that is, it

4 will come in, it is relevant, and it appears to have some probative

5 value; that what is coming in is not evidence as to who was

6 responsible for the death, but whether or not she believes he is dead

7 and what is the basis for that thought.

8 I will overrule your objection, Mr. Kay.

9 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours, please. (To the witness): Do you remember

10 the question? Excuse me, your Honours is quite right. I think the

11 witness has answered the question so there is no necessity for me to

12 take it any further, so I will not. That exhibit I tender and might it

13 be marked 213?

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: She did answer the question, as I recall. You were

15 trying to determine what was the basis for her belief and I am not

16 sure really whether you concluded it, but if you have concluded it,

17 that is fine.

18 MR. NIEMANN: I do not need to take it any further.


20 MR. NIEMANN (To the witness): Would you look now, please, at the next

21 photograph that I show you? Might the copy of this photograph be

22 marked No. 214? Might the other photograph be returned to the

23 Registrar, please, my copy? Just looking at the photograph I have now

24 shown you, do you recognise that photograph?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2596

1 Q. What is it a photograph of?

2 A. It shows two policemen.

3 Q. Do you know one of the policemen in the photograph?

4 A. Yes, I know Hajrudin Jakupovic.

5 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that photograph and, for the benefit of the

6 Defence, your Honours, this is Z5-26.

7 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 214 will be admitted.

9 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps the photograph can be displayed on the screen? The

10 person that you recognise in that photograph could you point to,

11 please?

12 A. This is my relative and friend, Hajrudin Jakupovic, policeman.

13 Q. Have you made any enquiries as to whether he is dead or alive?

14 A. I do not know. He was taken out of Omarska.

15 Q. Has he been missing since the war in 1992?

16 A. It is not known.

17 Q. Yes, has he been missing since the war, so far as you are aware, in

18 1992?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So far as you know, did he go to Omarska?

21 A. Yes, I was told by my friend and neighbours who came back from

22 Omarska.

23 Q. When was he born, do you know?

24 A. In '61.

25 Q. Was he Muslim?

Page 2597

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Where did he live?

3 A. He lived in Gornji Jakupovici.

4 Q. Approximately how far is that from Kozarac?

5 A. Approximately eight, nine kilometres, and he used to work in Kozarac

6 for five or six years -- actually, may be more, seven or eight.

7 Q. What was his occupation in Kozarac?

8 A. He worked as a policeman, an active policeman.

9 Q. What uniform was he dressed in there?

10 A. This is a winter uniform and our policemen also had a spring/summer

11 uniform.

12 Q. Is this the winter uniform of the police?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. This is the civilian police as opposed to military police?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. This is a fairly old photograph, is it?

17 A. Yes, I think that this is the third or fourth year that he spent in

18 Sarajevo.

19 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that, your Honour.

20 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 214 will be admitted.

22 MR. NIEMANN: Would you look at the photograph that I now show you?

23 Might the copy again be marked so that the original can be returned to

24 the witness? Do you recognise that photograph? That photograph for

25 the benefit of Defence is Z5-27. Do you recognise that photograph?

Page 2598

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who is it a photograph of?

3 A. This is my relative, Esad Alic, a policeman from Kozarac.

4 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that photograph, your Honours, and might it be

5 marked 215?

6 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 215 will be admitted.

8 MR. NIEMANN: Could it be placed on the screen, please?

9 (To the witness): That is Esad Alic, he is a relative of yours. Where

10 did he live?

11 A. In Kamicani.

12 Q. As best you can, can you tell us approximately how far that is from

13 Kozarac?

14 A. I think three, three-and-a-half kilometres.

15 Q. When was he born, when was he born?

16 A. I think in 55, 54, or something like that.

17 Q. Was he a Muslim?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What is the uniform that he is dressed in?

20 A. Like every other policemen in Kozarac, this is also a winter uniform.

21 Q. What colour is it?

22 A. Blue, just like any other police uniform, grey blue.

23 Q. Where was he on duty as a policeman?

24 A. In Kozarac.

25 Q. Since the war in 1992, have you ever seen him?

Page 2599

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did he go into Omarska, so far as you are aware?

3 A. I do not believe so, no.

4 Q. Did you make any enquiries as to what happened to him?

5 A. Yes. His brother came from Omarska and said that they were taken

6 away from Omarska.

7 Q. They have not been seen since -- he has not been seen since?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Would you look at the next photograph? Might that be returned to the

10 Registrar? Might the next photograph be marked, the copy marked 216?

11 Do you recognise that photograph?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. For the benefit of the Defence, that is Z5-28. Do you recognise who

14 it is in that photograph or who that is a photograph of?

15 A. Yes, Muhamed Jakupovic, a policeman.

16 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that photograph.

17 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 216 is admitted.

19 MR. NIEMANN: Might it be placed on the screen, Exhibit 216, and blown up

20 as best it can be? This is a photograph of Mohamed Jakupovic. Is he

21 in any way related to you?

22 A. Yes, a relative.

23 Q. Again, the uniform he is dressed in?

24 A. Police.

25 Q. Was he Muslim?

Page 2600

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you know when he was born?

3 A. In '66.

4 Q. 1966?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Where was he a police officer?

7 A. He worked in Prijedor as a traffic policeman.

8 Q. Have you seen him since the war in 1992?

9 A. No, he disappeared in Kozarac.

10 Q. You made enquiries yourself as to his whereabouts after the war?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. If you would look at the next photograph I show you, and might be

13 marked 217 and it is Z5-22. Do you recognise that photograph?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That is a photograph of your husband?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is that an extract of Exhibit 211, the first photograph that I showed

18 you yesterday? Has it been taken from that photograph?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was your husband born in 1965?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is he a Muslim?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Has he been missing since that day in Kozarac on 27th -- sorry, I

25 withdraw that. Has he been missing since the first attack on Kozarac

Page 2601

1 in 1992, in May 1992?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. He was a policeman as well?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that photograph, your Honour.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objections?

7 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection, your Honour.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 217 will be admitted. What was the exhibit?

9 MR. NIEMANN: 211, your Honour.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 211. I think Judge Vohrah would like .....

11 MR. NIEMANN: Displayed on the screen?


13 MR. NIEMANN: Could it be displayed on the screen?

14 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.

15 MR. NIEMANN (To the witness): Would you look at the next photograph that

16 I show you, please? Do you recognise that photograph that you are

17 shown?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. For the benefit of the Defence, that is Z5-23. Is that a photograph

20 of your husband and his family?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that photograph, your Honours.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is Exhibit 218, is it?

24 MR. NIEMANN: 218.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to 218?

Page 2602

1 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That will be admitted.

3 MR. NIEMANN: Could it be placed on the screen, please?

4 (To the witness): Mrs. Klipic, your husband is the gentleman in uniform

5 standing towards the centre of the photograph?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is your father-in-law in that photograph?

8 A. No, he is my father-in-law.

9 Q. Yes, your father-in-law?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is he in that photograph?

12 A. Yes, this is Fuad Klipic. He was killed in Trnopolje camp.

13 Q. Do you know when he was born?

14 A. 41 or 42, I should say.

15 Q. Did you enquire about the circumstances of his death?

16 A. Yes, I went to Trnopolje and I was told by people who buried him and

17 another individual from Kamicani.

18 Q. Do you know how he died?

19 A. Not natural causes. I do not know how he was killed. Nobody could

20 see that. They simply found him dead.

21 Q. Is your mother-in-law in that photograph?

22 A. Yes, this is my mother-in-law. She is alive.

23 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that, your Honour.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That should be admitted 218, is that correct?

25 MR. NIEMANN: 218. (To the witness): Would you look now at the

Page 2603

1 photographs I show you? Might the copy be marked 219? For the

2 benefit of the Defence, that is Z5-24. Do you recognise that

3 photograph?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That is a photograph of your brother, Ekrem?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that photograph, your Honour.

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 219 will be admitted.

10 MR. NIEMANN: Could it be placed on the screen, please?

11 A. Yes, this is my brother Ekrem, Ekro. He disappeared from Benkovac on

12 27th, on Wednesday.

13 Q. That is 27th May '92?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was he born in about 1955?

16 A. No -- 55, yes.

17 Q. His nickname is Ekro?

18 A. No, Ekro.

19 Q. What was his occupation?

20 A. My brother had a private business, he had his trucks and tractors and

21 he worked with timber.

22 Q. At the time of his death, did you know whether he was engaged in

23 military activity or not?

24 A. No, he was not in the TO. He was a normal person like everybody

25 else. I do not know how, could it be that we were organised? Had we

Page 2604

1 been, all this would not have happened.

2 Q. He is Muslim?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that, your Honour. Might exhibit 211 be returned

5 to the witness, please?

6 JUDGE STEPHEN: Can I just clarify something? That is a third brother, is

7 it?

8 MR. NIEMANN: Second brother, I think, your Honour.

9 JUDGE STEPHEN: A second brother?

10 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, it is two brothers, Enver Alic and Ekrem Alic, and the

11 other is her husband. Perhaps the photograph itself might be placed

12 on the screen? (To the witness): This photograph we looked at

13 yesterday, in the centre of the photograph is a photograph of your

14 husband?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who is the gentleman sitting to the left of him? Can you see that

17 gentleman there, if you could point to him first -- no, the other

18 side.

19 A. This is his brother, Fikret Klipic.

20 Q. Do you know when he was born?

21 A. Fikret was born in 1960.

22 Q. Is he still alive?

23 A. Yes, he is in Australia.

24 Q. Perhaps that exhibit might be returned? Mrs. Klipic, did you draw up

25 a list of your relatives who are missing since the war in 1992 from

Page 2605

1 the Kozarac area?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How many of your relatives are missing since that time?

4 A. 35 of my relatives are missing.

5 Q. These relatives, were they a mixture of men, women and children or

6 were they of the one sex?

7 A. No, only men. I did not write down women and children.

8 Q. Do you know where these relatives were the last time you heard of

9 them or heard from them?

10 A. Some were in Omarska, some in Benkovac, some in Trnopolje, Keraterm

11 and so on.

12 Q. Where is Benkovac?

13 A. Benkovac is up there close to Mrakovica. It is a youth village

14 there.

15 Q. Did you also draw up a list of Muslim police officers that you knew

16 that worked in the opstina Prijedor area that ----

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The list of policemen that you drew up, Muslim policemen, are these

19 policemen that have not been heard of or seen since 1992?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. KAY: Can I raise one matter here? My learned friend was good enough

22 to discuss matters with the Defence this morning, and provided a list

23 of names to us. I have had an opportunity now to reflect on the

24 purpose of this evidence, and we object to it on this basis. It is a

25 list of names who this lady has not heard of since May 1992. It is a

Page 2606

1 general list of people generally in the area.

2 We know that there was a great displacement of peoples. What

3 I am concerned is that the case against Mr. Tadic is going to involve

4 a list of names generally of people missing throughout the area, and

5 obscure, perhaps, the issues in his case and the charges on the

6 indictment that he faces and cause this court to be involved in

7 matters that, perhaps, do not concern this prosecution.

8 Perhaps the court would like to the opportunity to hear the

9 foundation for it from my learned friend? But, as far as we are

10 concerned, we think that this is evidence that really is too far in

11 relation to this trial.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, you are the learned friend, would you

13 like to respond?

14 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, in relation to particularly the charge of

15 persecution, there are allegations made of activities or policies

16 directed against Muslims and/or non-Serbs in the area of Kozarac and

17 the opstina of Prijedor. This evidence is presented in a number of

18 ways. It is presented in relation to people specifically that we

19 allege the accused was directly involved in their persecution.

20 It is also on a more general basis, in our submission, because

21 it is a policy directed towards the non-Serbs of the area. We submit

22 that the reference to the people that she knows, whether they be

23 relatives or whether they be policemen in the area, also goes to

24 identifying some of the people, even if it is only by reference not

25 particularly to the names, but even if it is just by reference to

Page 2607

1 their category, it goes to this broader question of the persecution of

2 the non-Serbs of the area.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you have anything further, Mr. Kay?

4 MR. KAY: I understand the nature of the wider picture that the

5 Prosecution are presenting as part of their case, but my concern is

6 that that, perhaps, has already been achieved through witnesses that

7 this court has heard over the previous five or six weeks; that what

8 may be happening now is that the issues in relation to Mr. Tadic's

9 case and the allegations specifically against him may be lost in

10 relation to these more general matters.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We have heard a lot. That is for sure. One of the

12 elements, well, one of the counts in the indictment is persecution.

13 In that count it is alleged that there was a seizure and imprisonment

14 of thousands of Muslims and Croats under brutal conditions located in

15 Omarska and other camps, and then deportation or expulsion of the

16 majority of Muslim and Croat residents of the opstina Prijedor by

17 force or threat of force. The accused Mr. Tadic is named in that

18 charge ---

19 MR. KAY: Yes.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: -- and, obviously, there will have to be a

21 connection between the deportation and expulsion which is alleged as

22 one of the multiplicity of acts and Mr. Tadic, but this gets us to the

23 first prong. I thought your concern might be that at least coming

24 from this witness in this form it might be prejudicial and that it

25 might be somewhat sensational, but this is a trial to the bench; I

Page 2608

1 think that we are able to understand the nature of the testimony, who

2 is giving it and the circumstances. But it certainly is relevant. To

3 the extent that the witness can say that they are missing, I think

4 that it is probative of that count. So I will overrule your objection

5 and we will hear from the witness, but see if you can proceed more

6 quickly, Mr. Niemann, please.

7 MR. KAY: I am much obliged.

8 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. (To the witness): The policemen that

9 were in that list you made enquiries of yourself to ascertain whether

10 or not they had been missing since that time?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you know whether or not your brother, Enver Alic, knew the

13 accused, Dule Tadic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How is it that you know that?

16 A. I know because Dule Tadic, Vasa Crnogorac, Fadil Hrustic bought

17 planks and various wooden elements for the coffee shop at my

18 brother's. I saw them there.

19 Q. You are saying your brother, Enver Alic, assisted with Dule Tadic's

20 coffee shop?

21 A. Yes, he was building a house and everybody has helping him with these

22 elements made of timber, so .....

23 Q. Did your brother, Ekrem, so far as you know, know the accused Dule

24 Tadic?

25 A. Yes, very well.

Page 2609

1 Q. Why is it that you know that?

2 A. I know because we all often went out to pubs and we all knew each

3 other, my brother was also and Eno too.

4 Q. Yesterday in your evidence you got to the point where you said that

5 you went to Trnopolje. Do you remember that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I think you said you had your children with you at the time?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. During the time that you were at Trnopolje, did you ever on any

10 occasion see Dule Tadic?

11 A. Yes, twice.

12 Q. Can you tell the Tribunal when it is that you first saw Dule Tadic at

13 the Trnopolje camp, when you were in Trnopolje camp?

14 A. Yes, my children were ill and I went from Trnopolje towards Trnjani,

15 that is, towards Prijedor.

16 Q. Where did you see him?

17 A. I met him and Bolta again in a police Golf heading towards Trnopolje.

18 Q. Were you walking at the time?

19 A. Yes, I was taking my two little sons.

20 Q. Were they driving in the car at the time?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was the car going fast or slow when it passed you?

23 A. Slow, slowly.

24 Q. Who was driving the car?

25 A. Brane Bolta.

Page 2610

1 Q. Where was the accused Dule Tadic sitting in the car?

2 A. He was sitting next to him in the co-driver's seat.

3 Q. This was in the front of the car, the passenger's seat in the front

4 of the car?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How far away were you from the car at the time when it became

7 closest to you, approximately?

8 A. Of course, as they were coming, we met, we simply met. I was going

9 towards Prijedor and they were going towards Trnopolje. They were

10 going slowly and you see anything that comes towards you.

11 Q. Were you on the side of the road?

12 A. No, I was walking in the opposite direction, not towards the car, but

13 opposite the car, that is, I was going down the right-hand side of the

14 road and he was also taking his right-hand side of the road.

15 Q. What position on the road were you when you were walking down the

16 road?

17 A. I was between Trnjani and Trnopolje. It is about a kilometre, a

18 kilometre-and-a-half. I do not remember exactly. I cannot remember

19 the building that we met at, but I know exactly where we were.

20 Q. Is the road sealed with bitumen at that point where you saw them?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were you walking on the part that was made of bitumen or were you

23 walking on the gravel shoulder?

24 A. No, we were on the bitumen part. There was no sidewalks there. It

25 was all bitumen, plain bitumen.

Page 2611

1 Q. Did you see how the men were dressed in the car? Firstly, Bolta, how

2 was he dressed?

3 A. Bolta was always dressed like this, as a policeman, and Dule was in

4 camouflage.

5 Q. Do you have any recollection in your mind approximately when this

6 was?

7 A. It was very soon in the beginning of June.

8 Q. In early June 1992?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. Did you have a clear view of Dule Tadic in that car as he approached

11 you?

12 A. Yes, I repeat it. Yes, I always say, yes, all I was interested was

13 the police and not Dule, so Bolta and other policemen, I met Dusko

14 too.

15 Q. Did you speak to Bolta on this occasion?

16 A. Yes -- no, not then but we used to come across each other quite often

17 at the SUP in Prijedor.

18 Q. You said, I think, that you saw him on a second occasion. Can you

19 tell us where that was that you saw him on the second occasion when

20 you were in Trnopolje?

21 A. Yes, it was across the street from the school at Huskina pub in

22 Trnopolje.

23 Q. This is a hotel or a pub, is it, directly across from the Trnopolje

24 school?

25 A. Yes, it is a private tavern, pub.

Page 2612

1 Q. Where were you standing or where were you at the time when you saw

2 Dule Tadic on this occasion?

3 A. I was coming with my two sons because the children had fallen ill and

4 they were losing liquid, and I had to go to Prijedor with them.

5 Q. Was this day-time or night-time when you saw him?

6 A. Day-time, in the morning.

7 Q. Did you have a good view of Dule Tadic when you saw him on this

8 occasion?

9 A. He was very close and very well.

10 Q. Were you walking along the streets, were you, at this time when you

11 saw him?

12 A. Yes, I was walking on foot and I was standing there. Zoka from the

13 petrol station, Goran Babic, policeman, and one Mejakic and I know all

14 those others, but I do not know their names.

15 Q. How close did you get to Dule Tadic when you saw him on this

16 occasion?

17 A. They were standing on one side of the bitumen and I passed by on the

18 other side.

19 Q. Was your view of Dule Tadic obstructed in any way when you saw him?

20 A. No, there were very many policemen, many military, and I was going

21 there to ask for an authorisation, to go for a permit, to go to

22 Prijedor.

23 Q. Did you at any stage cross the road and get closer to Dule Tadic?

24 A. No.

25 Q. How was he dressed on that occasion?

Page 2613

1 A. He was in camouflage uniform again. He had a rifle, a pistol, and I

2 do not know what else. I think he had a cap somewhere or dark

3 glasses.

4 Q. Are you able to describe the cap in any way, if you can remember?

5 A. A red beret I think he had stuck up here.

6 Q. Do you know approximately the date that this occurred when you saw

7 him on this occasion?

8 A. I think it was 8th June 1992, I am not sure, but I think that was

9 that.

10 Q. Did you see Dule Tadic on an occasion after that not in Trnopolje?

11 A. Yes, in Prijedor.

12 Q. What were the circumstances when you saw Dule Tadic on this

13 occasion?

14 A. Yes, I had to go to Prijedor SUP every day to get a permit to move

15 about, to get a pass.

16 Q. Were you with anyone on this occasion that you saw Dule Tadic?

17 A. Yes, there were my sons, and a lady neighbour of mine, Beska Kesic,

18 that is, Mandic.

19 Q. How far were you from Dule Tadic when you saw him on this occasion?

20 A. We were standing in that column and he and Siha (sic) Adil were

21 standing in a group and talking in front of the SUP building.

22 Q. You say Siha and Adil, Siha and Adil who? What is their other name?

23 A. Muslims, Nasiha and Adil, and Adil Jakupovic.

24 Q. Did you happen to see how Tadic was dressed on this occasion, Dule

25 Tadic was dressed on this occasion, when you saw him?

Page 2614

1 A. On that occasion he was in civilian clothes, not in a uniform. That

2 was the only time I saw him in civilian clothes.

3 Q. What date was that?

4 A. It could have been mid June, perhaps latter half, the beginning of

5 the latter half of June.

6 Q. 1992?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you see him on any other occasions after that?

9 A. In Prijedor, do you mean, I saw?

10 Q. I am sorry, yes, in Prijedor?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where did you see him on occasions after that?

13 A. Only in the SUP in passing, Stenko, him, Cigo, Brdar, Sujica, Goran

14 -- all those policemen I knew.

15 Q. These are all other policemen that you knew. Were they Serbian

16 policemen?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The SUP is the police station, is it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. On these other occasions when you saw him in and about the SUP

21 building with these Serbian police officers, how was he dressed on

22 those occasions, can you remember?

23 A. When he was wearing invariably the camouflage uniform.

24 Q. All of these occasions were in Prijedor city itself?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2615

1 Q. Would you look around the courtroom for me and see if you can see

2 Dule Tadic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Would you point to him?

5 A. He never was so smartly dressed like this. Shame on you! Yes, in the

6 middle between the two policemen.

7 Q. During the time that you lived in and around Kozarac and the opstina

8 Prijedor area, did you ever come across or -----

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The record will reflect that the witness has

10 identified the accused.

11 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honour pleases.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me, Mr. Niemann.

13 MR. NIEMANN (To the witness): Did you on any occasion ever see or meet

14 anyone or know of anyone who looked similar to Dule Tadic or who was

15 occasionally mistaken for Dule Tadic?

16 A. No. No, he did not have a twin brother.

17 Q. Was there anyone other than a brother that may have been similar to

18 him that you knew of?

19 A. No.

20 Q. No.

21 MR. NIEMANN: I have no further questions, your Honour.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Mr. Kay?

23 Cross-examined by MR. KAY

24 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour. (To the witness): Mrs. Klipic, the

25 first matter I want to talk to you about is when the attack took place

Page 2616

1 on Kozarac. You have referred to the day that that occurred and you

2 with your friends took shelter in a building in Kozarac, not at your

3 home, but further up Marsala Tita Street, is that right?

4 A. Yes, I was at a friend's house on Marsala Tita Street, but I am not

5 sure what that street that leads towards the hospital is called. I

6 was in the house of Hamid Najic.

7 Q. It seems to have been in the area near the hospital?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Whilst you were in that house, there were shells falling on Kozarac?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And also in that area where you were?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I do not know if you can help us, but was the building that you were

14 sheltering in, was that hit by a shell?

15 A. Not the house, but the store, Nafik store, and that store was hit by

16 a shell.

17 Q. In fact, the position you showed us yesterday on the map that we had

18 was very close to where Dule Tadic used to live?

19 A. Yes, I think it was a third or fourth house behind.

20 Q. If you went from the house where you were sheltering and went on to

21 the street and turned the corner, you would be very close to where

22 Dule Tadic's cafe and bar and the house was where his family lived?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Having sheltered there, you then decided with others to move out of

25 Kozarac and to go into the woodland behind the town?

Page 2617

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You took shelter in a summer house and that happened to be owned by

3 someone you knew called Adil Jakupovic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. This move from the house where you had sheltered in in Kozarac, was

6 that on the second day of the attack on the town?

7 A. Yes, Monday 25th.

8 Q. So, having spent the night in the town of Kozarac, the next day you

9 decided with others that it was best to leave that town and move for

10 refuge elsewhere?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Were there a large number of other people who had also taken that

13 decision to leave Kozarac and take shelter up in the woods behind the

14 town?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Like you, were they also sheltering in whatever places they could

17 find?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You told us that it would have been the third day that you then

20 decided to leave that area and to go down to Kozarac, and that you

21 were transported on a tractor with a trailer?

22 A. Yes, not the third day but the fourth day. Actually, the third day,

23 the third day from the time when we went to the woods and the fourth

24 day from the time of the attack, the Wednesday, 27th.

25 Q. Thank you very much. That explains it. Were others also like you

Page 2618

1 moving out of this area where they had taken refuge and going back

2 down from the hills into Kozarac?

3 A. Yes, on Tuesday afternoon we came down into Vidovici, a Serbian

4 village, that had eight or nine houses, I am not sure how many, and

5 that was not shelled.

6 Q. Do you know if others had left the woodland before you made that

7 decision to come down to Kozarac, whether others had, in fact, moved

8 down from those places of refuge earlier?

9 A. Yes, many columns left on Tuesday, meaning 26th, a lot of people

10 surrendered.

11 Q. When you left on the third day it would have been in the woods, but

12 the fourth day after the attack, had most of the people left the

13 woodland then, were you amongst the last people or were there still

14 many other people taking shelter up there?

15 A. I think we were the largest column, and I think the last one. I

16 think that people were joining us from all over. There were a lot of

17 people and there was a large column.

18 Q. So was it in the village of Vidovici that you got the lift in the

19 tractor with the trailer?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When you moved from Vidovici did you move down to the centre of

22 Kozarac or did you go to another part of Kozarac?

23 A. No, into the centre of Kozarac.

24 Q. The route that you took, if you are able to help us, if we have

25 Defence Exhibit 12 which is the blow-up of the map and perhaps if that

Page 2619

1 could be put before the witness on the overhead projector? Is it more

2 convenient for you, madam, to have it in front of you rather than

3 leaning over to the projector? I do not know if the court would

4 object if it was in front of her. I know your Honours have a copy of

5 the map.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Perhaps if it could be put in front of you and you will not have

8 difficulty in orientating yourself. If you see the top right-hand

9 corner, can you see "VIDOV"?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. That is where the village of Vidovici is?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you see on the left side of the map the word "Kozarac"?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you see the triangle part which is at the end of Marsala Tita

16 Street?

17 A. You mean here?

18 Q. Yes, I can see you are pointing with the stick. I can see where you

19 are from where I am standing. Yes. Do you recognise Marsala Tita

20 Street on this map? Going down to the triangle at the end of Kozarac,

21 madam?

22 A. This around here is Kalate. I think that this is the main street.

23 Q. Thank you. In fact, we can see what you are doing if we put on the

24 video monitor. Thank you very much. Now perhaps if you can tell us,

25 and if the court video is able to do it again, put your finger in the

Page 2620

1 area of Vidovici on the map and tell us the route that you went on

2 from Vidovici down to Kozarac? Use your finger, madam, if it is

3 easier than using the pointer.

4 A. Mutnik, I think I went here, then we went here, and then we came down

5 Marsala Tita. We went Vidovici, Brdjani and then down here, this

6 here, Arfagici, and that is not where we were.

7 MR. KAY: We now have the picture we wanted.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It is up to you, Mr. Kay. If you wish the witness

9 to use the overhead projector, she may; it is up to you.

10 MR. KAY: Yes. Perhaps we will go back to that. I appreciate yesterday

11 she was having difficulty, your Honour. (To the witness): Perhaps

12 if we can put it back -----

13 A. I am not good in geography.

14 Q. It does not matter. We might be able to find the route that you went

15 on. Perhaps if we can put that map on the overhead projector, Mr.

16 Bos, and we will try again? Perhaps you would like to move your chair

17 closer to it, madam, it might assist you. The microphone will put up

18 your voice nearer the projector.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Klipic, move towards that way a little bit and

20 pull your microphone. Thank you.

21 MR. KAY: Can you see there, Vidovici?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Are you able to trace with that pointer the route that you took from

24 Vidovici down to Kozarac?

25 A. I think it was perhaps this road.

Page 2621

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. Then we went here, this way, and then this way, and then we came to

3 Mutnik mosque.

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Then we came, I think, this down here.

6 Q. Right.

7 A. This is toward Hrnici, this is towards Prijedor and this around

8 Kalate.

9 Q. Yes. Perhaps if we can just stop there? You can tell me what time

10 it was that you left Vidovici?

11 A. I think around noon or 1 o'clock.

12 Q. Can you remember at all how long it took you to get down to Mutnik

13 mosque?

14 A. It depends who had what kind of an appetite and how we came through

15 here.

16 Q. Can you remember what time of day it was that you arrived there on

17 the tractor?

18 A. Brdjani, in Brdjani or Kozarusa?

19 Q. No, at the Mutnik mosque.

20 A. I cannot remember. I think it was, as I said, we walked for half an

21 hour and then we would stop and then we went for half an hour, then we

22 would stop for 10 minutes, 20 minutes and then continue.

23 Q. Are you able to tell me at all the numbers of people who were moving

24 with you on this route?

25 A. Many. It was a very long column with tractors, cars, some people

Page 2622

1 walked.

2 Q. Were you in the middle of the column or at the head of the column or

3 at the back of the column? Are you able to tell us whereabouts?

4 A. I think I was among the first behind. I am not sure exactly where my

5 tractor was, but maybe first or second or third.

6 Q. When you moved from Mutnik mosque, you went down Marsala Tita Street?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You went down to the triangle at the end of that street, the green

9 triangle near the school in Kozarac, is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Are you able to tell me about what time of day that was that you got

12 there?

13 A. I did not have a watch.

14 Q. Was it in the afternoon or evening?

15 A. Afternoon.

16 Q. Are you able to say for how long you had been travelling from

17 Vidovici, how long did it take you to get down there near the school

18 in Kozarac?

19 A. I will say again I do not know. In that fear, in all that crying, it

20 is hard to tell.

21 Q. You eventually went to Kozarusa, is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Are you able by looking at the map we have had in the courtroom that

24 you have just looked at, Defence Exhibit 12, to tell us which road you

25 would have taken in Kozarac that took you to Kozarusa?

Page 2623

1 A. I think this here. (Indicated).

2 Q. We cannot see where you are pointing and Mr. Bos will help you.

3 A. This is the main street. It goes towards Krkici. These are Krkici.

4 Q. That is probably not the direction of Kozarusa, is it, down there

5 from Kozarac?

6 A. Krkici?

7 Q. Let me see if I put another map before you, it might make it easier.

8 If we have map 79, if it can be put with Kozarac in the centre and

9 perhaps blown up. That is what we need. Can you see that map now,

10 madam? Can you see where Kozarac is? Can you see two roads, one with

11 a "4" on it? Would that be the new road that would take you to Banja

12 Luka or Prijedor?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you see that? Your house was quite near that new road, was it

15 not?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Perhaps looking at this map now you might be able to tell us where

18 exactly your house was, that might help you? Are you able to point to

19 that by looking at that map? Perhaps if you could keep your finger on

20 the map as to where your house would be near the new ----

21 A. I cannot tell you, either up here or down here.

22 Q. OK. Can you see there "Kozarusa"?

23 A. I saw it somewhere, I cannot find it now. Yes.

24 Q. It is very close to Kozarac, is it not?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2624

1 Q. That is the place that you went to on your trailer and with the

2 column of people?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Perhaps you can tell us, are you able to, by looking at this map,

5 which direction you took on that trailer that took you to Kozarusa?

6 Are you able to point to which road by looking at this map?

7 A. I think this is the main road, Kozarac, Kozarusa.

8 Q. Is that the road you took, the one that you are moving the pointer

9 along at the moment?

10 A. There is an old road and a new road. There is an upper Kozarusa --

11 Donja Kozarusa and Gornja Kozarusa.

12 Q. Yes. All I am trying to locate is where exactly you went to on your

13 trailer when you told us that you went near a pub and the column of

14 people stopped and were directed to various parts?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Are you able to point by looking at this plan where on the map that

17 place would be where you came to stop? Was it above the new highway

18 or below the new highway? Was it near the old road?

19 A. It was by the new road and below the new road.

20 Q. Thank you. That is probably all I need to direct you with in

21 relation to that map for the moment. So you moved from Kozarac. You

22 went to Kozarusa, and the column ---

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. --- came to a halt in Kozarusa, is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2625

1 Q. The road that you took from Kozarac took you along the new highway

2 which would take you to Prijedor; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So, leaving Kozarac you would have passed the old sawmill, would you?

5 Would that have been one of the places you would have passed on your

6 way?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. There turned right on to the new highway, would that be right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. Again, can you remember what time it was that you arrived

11 at Kozarusa and the column came to a halt?

12 A. I think it could have been around 3.00 or 4 o'clock. It was still

13 hot, warm.

14 Q. At this stage had more people joined your column that had initially

15 moved from Vidovici?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Whereabouts in the column were you when it arrived at Kozarusa? Were

18 you still near the front or in a different part of it?

19 A. Yes, still.

20 Q. Is it right that more people had, in fact, joined that column as you

21 progressed and made your way to Kozarusa?

22 A. Yes. I saw that the column was larger and larger in the back.

23 Q. You told the court yesterday that whilst you were on the road that

24 you saw a VW Golf police car that had been driven by Brane Bolta?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2626

1 Q. You said that Dusko Tadic was in that car with a man called Goran

2 Borovnica and someone else whom you could not see?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When you saw that car, in which part of your journey did the car come

5 near you? Whereabouts exactly had you travelled to at that stage?

6 A. I think I was around the Bajina tavern.

7 Q. The Bajina tavern is whereabouts? Is that in Kozarac or near the new

8 highway?

9 A. Yes, by the new highway, close to Susici.

10 MR. KAY: We have some further maps here to put before the court which

11 decrease in scale from Defence Exhibit 12, your Honour, but they might

12 be helpful. Your Honour, I put before the court a map now of a

13 slightly different scale from the one that has been previously used

14 which I tender as Defence Exhibit 13.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You are not going to have this witness identify it?

16 I presume there will be no objection and that the Prosecution will

17 stipulate with respect to this map, is there a problem?

18 MR. NIEMANN: No problem.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. This is Exhibit?

20 MR. KAY: 13 Defence.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 13 Defence. It will be admitted. It is a map of?

22 MR. KAY: The Kozarac region again.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Good. Thank you.

24 MR. KAY: Can we put it on to the overhead projector? Again madam --

25 perhaps if we can have that on the video screen slightly smaller, more

Page 2627

1 area shown or move it, thank you -- are you able to see Susici?

2 A. Yes, Susici.

3 Q. Perhaps you can indicate that on the plan that we have on the

4 overhead projector?

5 A. Susici.

6 Q. Yes. Can you see the new highway below Susici?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. That is the new highway is it not?

9 A. Susici, Huskici, depending on how you mark them.

10 Q. Are you able to show us on this plan where that tavern was that you

11 say you saw the car containing Dule Tadic and Brane Bolta, where it

12 would be?

13 A. It could be around here, between Susici and probably close to

14 Kozarac, about a kilometre from Kozarac, towards Susici.

15 Q. How far from where the column eventually stopped, as you said,

16 Kozarusa?

17 A. I think about two kilometres.

18 Q. That would be going the other direction from Kozarac, would it not,

19 madam?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. At this stage the highway would have been full of many vehicles and

22 people, all moving in the same direction that you were going, is that

23 right?

24 A. No. We were moving in one direction and Serbs were moving in another

25 direction.

Page 2628

1 Q. When you say "Serbs were moving in another direction", what was the

2 amount of traffic then that was going in the opposite direction to

3 you?

4 A. It is a small traffic because the road was not large, and they were

5 mostly walking and driving in cars.

6 Q. When you say "Serbs were going in the opposite direction", what kind

7 of Serbs?

8 A. Armed, dressed, all kinds.

9 Q. Was the traffic in the road divided then into two columns, one going

10 one way and the other traffic going the other way, so that the highway

11 was divided as it would usually be in two sections?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that is a convenient moment.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

15 (11.30 a.m.)

16 (The court adjourned for a short time)

17 (11.50 a.m.)

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, you may continue.

19 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour. (To the witness): The area of the

20 tavern where you saw Brane Bolta in a Golf car with Dusko Tadic and

21 others was how far from the place in Kozarusa where eventually your

22 column stopped?

23 A. Two-and-a-half, I believe, about two-and-a-half kilometres.

24 Q. How long did it take you to travel that distance to stop the column

25 in Kozarusa?

Page 2629

1 A. Had we been moving normally, that is 60 to 70, then it would have

2 taken us about 10 minutes, but as it was it lasted longer. The

3 column stopped often. I do not know why.

4 Q. Perhaps you can tell me then how much longer it took?

5 A. I should say about one hour.

6 Q. When you saw the car containing Brane Bolta, it was travelling in the

7 opposite direction which would be in the direction of Kozarac and

8 Banja Luka, is that right?

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. When you arrived in Kozarusa the column stopped at what point?

11 A. By Zika's tavern in Kozarusa.

12 Q. Is that in the centre of Kozarusa or by the new highway?

13 A. By the new highway, at the bus station across the street from Zika's

14 tavern.

15 Q. When your column stopped there, were there other Muslim people or

16 Croat, others who had been moved away from their homes, who were

17 already there -----

18 A. Yes, there was a small group, but that was when they started

19 separating men from 16 to 65 years of age, that is, in front of Zika's

20 tavern and we, women and children, remained on our tractors, buses,

21 cars or whatever it was.

22 Q. When you arrived near Zika's tavern, how soon was it before you were

23 separated and put in one direction for Trnopolje?

24 A. Well, until all the men were separated and until they had gone

25 through all our bags.

Page 2630

1 Q. So when you arrived at the bus station near Zika's tavern, had any of

2 this procedure of separating people already started, or did it start

3 when you arrived with your column?

4 A. The separation began, I guess, and then others told me that the

5 separation of men began in Kozarac already.

6 Q. But when you arrived there, there was only a few people at that

7 stage, is that right?

8 A. There was quite a number of people.

9 Q. When you say "quite a number of people", who do you mean? Who were

10 these people? Can you identify them in any way?

11 A. Those were separating were Serbs and those who were separated from

12 columns were Muslims.

13 Q. The Serbs who were separating people when you arrived, who were they?

14 Can you identify them?

15 A. There were many. There were many I know and many more that I do not

16 know.

17 Q. Which ones did you know who were doing the separating when you

18 arrived?

19 A. Milos Preradovic, Rade Strika, Dule Tadic, Goran Borovnica, Tomo

20 Stojakovic.

21 Q. But you must have been very surprised to see Dule Tadic there because

22 you had only seen him not long ago in a motor car driving in the

23 opposite direction away from Kozarusa in the direction of Banja Luka

24 or Kozarac?

25 A. Yes, but he was in a car and one hour and a half, that was roughly

Page 2631

1 how long we were there. I mean, it was easy to return.

2 Q. I have asked you about the times that things had taken on this

3 journey to Kozarusa. You told us that the time from the area near the

4 tavern where you saw Dusko Tadic in a motor car to the time that it

5 took you to stop at the tavern near the bus station in Kozarusa was

6 about an hour?

7 A. An hour, an hour and a half. I am telling you, I did not have a

8 watch and I was not interested in time. I wanted to know where people

9 were going and what was going to happen to them.

10 Q. Had you seen the car, the VW Golf, that you say you saw Mr. Tadic in

11 driving past you, overtaking you on the way?

12 A. That he came back or went in the direction of Kozarac?

13 Q. On your way to Kozarusa, you say you saw Dusko Tadic in a motor car

14 driving in the opposite direction?

15 A. Yes. And after some time I saw him again in front of Kozarusa -- in

16 front of Zika's tavern.

17 Q. You told us yesterday that the car was driving slowly, it could not

18 drive fast because of the people on the highway?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And he was going in the opposite direction to you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You were near the head of a long column of people ---

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. -- who were proceeding in this long chain which had started in

25 Vidovici, through Kozarac and was making its way to Kozarusa?

Page 2632

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You told us that people were joining this column?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And that on the way the car driving slowly in the opposite direction

5 containing Dusko Tadic passed you and yet, you say, when you arrived

6 in Kozarusa and people were being separated --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. --- Milos Preradovic, Goran Borovnica ---

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. -- that they were there in Kozarusa when you had seen them going in

11 the opposite direction?

12 A. So they came back by car, they were in a car.

13 Q. So they would have to have driven through the long column of people

14 to get ahead of you?

15 A. They did not obey any traffic rules; they used the same side again.

16 Q. But you were very interested in blue police motor cars; as you have

17 told us on many occasions, you were interested to observe who was in

18 those cars because of the connection with your husband?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You would have noticed a blue police motor car threading its way

21 slowly through a column of people?

22 A. They had many police cars, and very -- and very many Mercedes in

23 Kozarac and that day they used them more than ever.

24 Q. But you did not see this car overtake you in that time it took you to

25 get from the place on the new highway where you say you saw the car

Page 2633

1 containing Tadic?

2 A. No, I did not see him return. I saw him right before Kozarusa after

3 some uncertain time.

4 Q. But when you arrive in Kozarusa he is part of this group of Serbs who

5 are separating people?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. As to how he got back there?

8 A. I do not know -- ask him.

9 Q. I am asking you, madam. Perhaps you would like to look at a

10 statement that you made on 20th October 1995. What I seek to put

11 before the witness is a translation of the English statement, as it

12 would have been, into Serbo-Croat which has been provided to us by the

13 Registry.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. Do you have any objection, Mr. Niemann?

15 MR. NIEMANN: I have not seen the statement at this stage, your Honour, so

16 I need to look at it.

17 MR. KAY: I will provide it.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That will be marked as -- what number are we at?

19 MR. KAY: 14.


21 MR. KAY: 14A, perhaps. Here is a copy for Mr. Niemann.

22 (To the witness): Do you remember giving a statement on 20th October

23 1995 to someone called Thomas Ackheim?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. With an interpreter called Nevenka?

Page 2634

1 A. I think so.

2 Q. You gave a statement which was translated from Serbo-Croat into

3 English, is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. After you had given that statement, you had it read back to you in

6 your own language by Nevenka, and she told you that it was a statement

7 in your language that was true to the best of your knowledge and

8 recollection, is that right? Do you remember that, and that it was

9 for the War ---

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- the International Criminal Tribunal?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you recollect she asked you to sign an acknowledgment of that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Perhaps you would like to look at this document here and just confirm

16 that that is your signature? (Document handed to the witness). Is

17 that your signature?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. If you look at the other page, you have signed the other pages before

20 it as well, is that right?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Perhaps as that is the English version that can be

23 returned to me, Mr. Usher. I would like you just to look at the first

24 page of that statement that I have given to you in your own language.

25 Can you confirm that there is no mention in that statement about

Page 2635

1 seeing Dusko Tadic in a Golf motor car on 27th May on your way to

2 Kozarusa, is that right?

3 A. Yes, I did not, I had forgotten that. I can go on telling you about

4 everything that happened to me for another six hours until 28th June

5 in Prijedor. I want the truth. Where are those people? I do not

6 know whether Dule killed them, but he must know the truth where these

7 people are.

8 Q. You were being questioned specifically about Dule Tadic, were you

9 not, that is why the investigator spoke to you?

10 A. Yes, I may have forgotten that. I can give you as many statements as

11 you want, but I do not think that only all those statements of mine

12 are that important.

13 Q. Your statement was not really about everything else that happened to

14 you; it was concentrating upon Dule Tadic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You were aware, were you not, of the allegation against Mr. Tadic,

17 that he killed your brother?

18 A. Yes, I had heard that but it was not Dule alone. There are thousands

19 of them like Dule.

20 Q. What I am suggesting to you is that you have made up this account

21 that you saw Dule Tadic on 27th May in a Golf motor car on the highway

22 and in Kozarusa?

23 A. It is not true. I said the truth. I know whom I saw where. I would

24 be happy if I were lying to you and if my family were alive.

25 Q. What I would like to ask you about now is some of that detail

Page 2636

1 concerning the separation of people in Kozarusa. Before I do that, I

2 would like you to just look at your statement in your own language and

3 the paragraph dealing with 27th May 1992 so that you can see what you

4 said last year. That is on that first page you have just looked at.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In that statement is it right that you say that he was dividing the

7 people, deciding who should be sent to Omarska, Keraterm and

8 Trnopolje?

9 A. Yes, he, Milos and all the others listed here.

10 Q. But in this statement you say that he was deciding, "I heard him

11 decide who to be sent to Omarska, Keraterm and Trnopolje".

12 A. Yes, they were loudly consulting: "What are we going to do with this

13 one? Where are we going to send that one?" I did not know at that

14 time; later on I heard they were taking them to Omarska and Keraterm.

15 Q. If I can remind you of what you told the court yesterday and that was

16 that Dusko Tadic was asking: "Where do I take them?" You were asked:

17 "Who did he ask?" and you told the court: "Milos Preradovic".

18 A. Yes, Strika, Bolta, they were all there.

19 Q. But that is very different, is it not, from on one account you say

20 Dusko Tadic deciding who was going to be separated, who was going to

21 go where, and what you said in court yesterday which was that he was

22 asking where to send people; he was being told where to send people?

23 Do you appreciate the difference?

24 A. I do not know how you would feel after four years, or I do not know

25 how long, without your family, if anybody asked you that.

Page 2637

1 Q. Because what I am suggesting to you is that you are making up this

2 account against ---

3 A. No.

4 Q. -- Mr. Tadic?

5 A. No, that is what you think, but we think what we know and what we

6 saw.

7 Q. That you are inventing a role for him in what took place in the

8 Kozarac region?

9 A. I would be very happy to invent that and have my family alive. I

10 want the truth, where my brothers, my husband and my relatives.

11 Q. When you say you saw Mr. Tadic on that day of 27th May, can you

12 describe his appearance, what he looked like?

13 A. In Kozarusa that day, you mean?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. He had a camouflage uniform, he was slightly unkempt, not really, but

16 he was unshaven. He did not have a beard but he was unshaven.

17 Q. In this statement that I have just put before you, if you would like

18 to look at the paragraph below that of 27th May, there are two lines,

19 do you not say he was clean shaven?

20 A. No, no. He had no time to be clean shaven. Clean shaven he was when

21 I last saw him in Kozarac. He was then clean shaven. I do not know

22 how to explain it. Then he did not have a beard, but he looked like

23 someone who had not shaved for two or three days.

24 Q. But you will agree with me, though, will you not, that in this

25 statement here you are quite specific; you say he was, to the best of

Page 2638

1 your recollection, clean shaven? Is that not right?

2 A. I do not know really what to tell you. You are a professional and I

3 am not. I am telling the truth and you can think what you like. His

4 beard and his continence were of no interest to me.

5 Q. But you were asked to think about these matters because in the

6 paragraph before when you say what happened on 21st May 1992 --

7 perhaps you would like to look at that short paragraph before 27th May

8 in your statement in your language? Perhaps you would like to do

9 that, the one before, the paragraph before 27th May. It is on the

10 first page. It starts: "On 21st May 1992 ..." Well, it is a matter

11 for you whether you want to look at that statement or not, but in

12 there you said that he had a, had a few days growth but not a beard

13 before the attack? So you were thinking about these matters, were you

14 not?

15 A. What did I say?

16 Q. You were thinking about these matters. You were trying to remember

17 what he looked like because you described him as not having a few days

18 growth, but not a beard, in a few days before the attack?

19 A. No. He looked unkempt, just a little, some growth. He has a very

20 strong beard and he does not shave for a day or two and, at any rate,

21 I said I was not interested in his beard. I was not interested as a

22 man. As a man I met him passing in Kozarac on that particular day.

23 Unfortunately I had no photographic camera or anything to take a shot

24 of him.

25 Q. When you say he was in a camouflage uniform, did you notice anything

Page 2639

1 unusual about the uniform that you say he was wearing?

2 A. That is what you think. A camouflage uniform, like any camouflage

3 uniform, he had an automatic rifle and a pistol and a belt and God

4 knows what else.

5 Q. I would like to now move to Trnopolje which is where you were sent

6 from Kozarusa, is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you arrive in Trnopolje on 27th May?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How many days did you stay in Trnopolje?

11 A. Ten or 12, I do not know exactly. I went in 27th and on the 8th I

12 left to Prijedor.

13 Q. Can you remember the date that you left and went to Prijedor?

14 A. I cannot exactly, but I think I did say 8th or 10th. My children had

15 contracted dysentery and I had to take them urgently to Prijedor.

16 Q. Were you staying in the camp in Trnopolje which was where the cinema

17 was and other buildings?

18 A. No, I was in the third house from the camp and that was also guarded

19 by the army. It was Alija Grdan's house.

20 Q. So you were outside what I would otherwise call the centre of the

21 camp, is that right?

22 A. Yes, but I went to the centre, to the camp every day.

23 Q. Was it two children you had with you?

24 A. Yes, two sons, two and a half and four and a half years.

25 Q. Did one or both of them contract dysentery?

Page 2640

1 A. Yes, both. They had lost liquid. They both had diarrhoea. They

2 could not walk. So I left them with a colleague of mine. I went down

3 to the doctor to tell me if he had something. They told me they had

4 nothing. So I took my children to take the bus and Pero gave me

5 permission to go to Prijedor.

6 Q. The reason you were going to Prijedor was presumably to go to the

7 Prijedor hospital to get some treatment, would that be right?

8 A. Yes, I went to the medical centre in Prijedor.

9 Q. How many occasions did you leave Trnopolje in that way to go to the

10 Prijedor medical centre?

11 A. No, I was in Trnopolje until the day, all the time until the 8th or

12 the 10th.

13 Q. So when you leave to go to Prijedor to the medical centre with your

14 children, is that the day that you stop your confinement in Trnopolje?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So you move from Trnopolje on that day. Did you have any

17 accommodation arranged for you in Prijedor?

18 A. Yes, I with was with my husband's brother, that is his wife in Donja

19 Puharska.

20 Q. Did someone give you permission to leave Trnopolje so that you could

21 then go and live in Prijedor?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Presumably gave you documents that supported that, is that right?

24 A. Yes, they gave me a certificate so that I could go from Trnopolje to

25 Prijedor.

Page 2641

1 Q. So this occasion when you go to the Prijedor medical centre, is the

2 day that you do not return to Trnopolje?

3 A. Yes, and I also went from Prijedor to Trnopolje when I heard that my

4 father-in-law was killed, and that was June, towards the end of it, I

5 do not know when, but towards the end of it, late June.

6 Q. So there was another occasion when you were able to leave Prijedor to

7 visit Trnopolje?

8 A. Yes, and I again had to obtain a document from the SUP.

9 Q. But you did not have to stay in Trnopolje; you were able after that

10 to return to Prijedor, would that be right?

11 A. Yes, I returned to Prijedor and once again I went to fetch my

12 mother-in-law to Duracci, also to obtain paper and bring her back to

13 Prijedor.

14 Q. Looking at the time, as I wish to now, that you were actually in the

15 village of Trnopolje, were you staying with people who had a house

16 there or were you just put into a house that belonged to other people?

17 Perhaps you can tell us?

18 A. I was with those people. There was the landlord Adil and there were

19 very many other neighbours of ours from Kamicani.

20 Q. You have told the court this morning that on two occasions whilst you

21 were at Trnopolje you saw Dusko Tadic not in the camp but in the

22 village of Trnopolje itself, is that right?

23 A. Yes, I saw him once, I have already said that, when I went to Trnjani

24 from the camp to my relatives to get my children.

25 Q. How soon after you had been in the camp do you say that the first

Page 2642

1 occasion was that you saw Dusko Tadic in the area of Trnopolje?

2 A. In the area around Trnopolje I saw Dule several days later, after

3 five or six days.

4 Q. Was he on his own or with others?

5 A. First I saw him, the first time I think, maybe the second, the first

6 time I saw him coming from Prijedor towards Trnopolje. I was going

7 towards Trnjani with my children so that they could have a bath and

8 have a meal with my relative, and I saw him with Bolta, I do not know

9 if it was a Golf, in any case, it was a police car and they were going

10 towards Trnopolje.

11 Q. If I can just look at what you have told us there. Would it be then

12 the first occasion you were on your way somewhere so that your

13 children could have a bath in another house?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Whereabouts was the house that you were taking them to?

16 A. It was at Ilijaz Trnjanin's house, my relative. He is about one and

17 a half kilometres from Trnopolje towards Duracci below the road

18 towards Garevci, the lower road.

19 Q. Perhaps we can look at Exhibit 79 and a place a copy before the

20 witness on the overhead projector. If you would like to look at this

21 map, Mrs. Klipic, and if the screen can come back a bit and the map

22 moved up to include part of the lake. Just stop there. Thank you.

23 We do not see the town name Trnopolje on this map because it is

24 Kozarac Station that has been named. Do you see that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2643

1 Q. We have been told that that is the area of Trnopolje around Kozarac

2 Station. Is that something that you would agree with?

3 A. Yes, it used to be called, the railway station used to be called

4 Kozarac Railway Station.

5 Q. Are you able to see on there the place where you were going with your

6 children to the house of your relative so that they could have a bath?

7 A. Yes, I can see Trnjani.

8 Q. Perhaps you can indicate it with the stick on the map which is on the

9 overhead projector? I think you will find Trnjani is the other

10 direction there?

11 A. Trnjani.

12 Q. Can you recognise the place where their house would be?

13 A. Yes. (Indicated). I think that it is a little bit in here.

14 Q. Yes. When you saw Dusko Tadic with Brane Bolta in a vehicle,

15 whereabouts was that vehicle when you were walking from Trnopolje?

16 A. The car was going from Prijedor and I was going towards Prijedor.

17 Q. So it was somewhere on that road, was it, that we can see marked on

18 ----

19 A. Yes. I cannot remember exactly what exactly, what place exactly.

20 Q. You walked on the road rather than walking on any other paths or any

21 our route?

22 A. Yes, we walked on the road, on the side of the road because there is

23 no sidewalk; just asphalt.

24 Q. Did the car stop?

25 A. No.

Page 2644

1 Q. It drove past. Did you say anything to the car or gesture to it in

2 any way?

3 A. Yes, I looked, you know, Bolta and of course you wonder what is he

4 going to ask you. Although we always met in Prijedor I would always

5 ask him about people, but at that time he just passed by me.

6 Q. The car was going in the opposite direction or the same direction as

7 you were walking?

8 A. Opposite direction, from Prijedor towards Trnopolje, and I was going

9 from Trnopolje towards Prijedor which means towards Trnjani.

10 Q. Again this was a blue police car?

11 A. Yes, I think. I am not sure exactly what car, but it was a police

12 car. I noticed that the best.

13 Q. Was there any other traffic on the road at the time?

14 A. I do not remember. I do not know.

15 Q. Was the car driving at an ordinary speed?

16 A. Yes, normal. It was not going too fast because the road had pot

17 holes in there. It was asphalt but it had pot holes.

18 Q. The other occasion at Trnopolje when you say you saw Dusko Tadic, was

19 that in the camp itself?

20 A. No, it was outside of the camp. There was a tavern Huskina's tavern

21 across from the school.

22 Q. Was he with anyone?

23 A. Yes, he was with Goran Babic, Zoka from the gas station, Goran the

24 taxi driver. There were many familiar faces but I cannot remember the

25 names of all of them.

Page 2645

1 Q. Was this Goran the taxi driver who was married to a Muslim woman?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Otherwise called Zoran, is that right?

4 A. Zoran, Goran, Zoran, I am not sure. I just know that he was married

5 to Amina and he had three children and he was a taxi driver. I am not

6 exactly sure about his name and I do not know even know his last name.

7 Q. Do you know if his wife or children were in the camp?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. They were?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know what he was doing there?

12 A. I do not know. Everybody was standing there. I really did not see

13 who was doing what but I saw them.

14 Q. Are you sure that this was Goran or Zoran who had a relative who was

15 a Muslim in the camp, or could it have been someone else other than

16 he?

17 A. I think it was Goran. Zoka from the gas station was there. Goran,

18 Zoran, there are many of those people and I always have them mixed up,

19 but I know he had three children with Amina. That Zoka from the gas

20 station, I knew him the best and I saw him and Goran Babic, policemen

21 who worked until Saturday evening in Kozarac.

22 Q. Were there a large number of policemen or guards or military people

23 around this area?

24 A. Yes, there were. There was a group of people, I do not know how

25 many, in there. As I am saying to you, I was not really counting. I

Page 2646

1 never even knew I would be free eventually and where would I live.

2 Q. Did people come to the camp who had relatives in there, perhaps wives

3 or other members of their family, to try to get them released from the

4 camp?

5 A. I do not know.

6 Q. Did you get anyone from your family out of the camp?

7 A. Where?

8 Q. Out of Trnopolje? Were you able to have someone released to you from

9 the camp?

10 A. No. I had my mother-in-law. I fetched them at the Duracci village

11 and I got her there and I took her to Puharska. She was not in the

12 camp.

13 Q. Was the place where your mother-in-law placed near Trnopolje camp?

14 A. Yes, that place is called Duracci. I do not know how many kilometres

15 it is from Trnopolje, perhaps 3 or 4 in the direction of Prijedor.

16 Q. Did people used to come to Trnopolje camp whilst you were there and

17 arrive and look for relatives or friends whom they believed to be in

18 the camp?

19 A. I do not know who got whom out. I know that I saw several Muslims in

20 Prijedor who were not in the camp and who got them out of there, and

21 it was probably friends, just like, for example, I think I heard that

22 Dule took out Adil and Nasiha Jakupovic and in Prijedor I saw Hamdija

23 Tadic he had his two sons and his brother-in-law and a son.

24 Q. So you think that Dule Tadic was able to get out of Trnopolje a

25 Muslim friend of his?

Page 2647

1 A. I do not know where he got him out, whether from the column or

2 Trnopolje, I am not sure. I know they were with us in Kozarusa.

3 Nasiha and Adil were with us. We were in the column together all the

4 time, but whether it was Dule, as I say, I do not know who took them

5 out.

6 Q. I just thought you said that Adil Jakupovic was in the building where

7 you were in the Trnopolje, in the house where you were staying?

8 A. Not in Trnopolje. In Kozarac in the shelter.

9 Q. What I suggest to you is that you did not see him twice in the region

10 of Trnopolje?

11 A. (Inaudible).

12 Q. But you may have seen him once in the time that you were there and,

13 indeed, with a man looking for somebody at the camp?

14 A. Who do you have in mind?

15 Q. Jovo Samovic.

16 A. Jovo Samovic?

17 Q. Yes. Do you know him?

18 A. I never heard of him, no.

19 Q. But what you can tell us from your account is that on one occasion

20 you saw him there was a man with him who was married to a Muslim woman

21 who had three children who was Goran or Zoran?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You have also told the court that you saw Mr. Tadic in Prijedor later

24 on in June?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2648

1 Q. And he was dressed in civilian clothes?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You say it was in front of the SUP building, is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You in fact mention a Muslim man Adil Jakupovic as being with him as

6 well as his wife, is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In the statement that you gave last year, if you can just turn to the

9 second page of it, all I want to do is help you with a date. You

10 actually name a date, do you not, as being 15th June 1992?

11 A. When I saw Adil and Siha, right.

12 Q. Yes. You say you saw Mr. Tadic on that day, 15th June, in civilian

13 clothes in Prijedor, is that right?

14 A. Yes, I saw him, but whether it was exactly that date, I said that

15 approximately. I cannot really remember the date exactly.

16 Q. Right, but for what it is worth on this occasion you actually said

17 that date, 15th June, which must have seemed right to you or about

18 right when you gave it, do you agree?

19 A. Yes, approximately. I roughly remember, I am not exactly sure. I

20 said I saw him in the morning. I remember it was early in the

21 morning.

22 Q. When you saw him with Adil Jakupovic, could it in fact have been in

23 front of the Hotel Balkan in Prijedor rather than at the SUP building?

24 A. No. It was in front of the SUP building.

25 Q. Was there any particular reason why you should remember where they

Page 2649

1 were?

2 A. Yes, because there were a lot of us who had, who needed every day

3 those same authorisations which would enable us to move through

4 Prijedor every day.

5 Q. Can you remember what day of the week it would have been when you say

6 him? Is there any particular reason why a day of the week would have

7 been of interest to you?

8 A. I really do not know. I cannot remember.

9 MR. KAY: Thank you. No further questions.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Mr. Niemann, do you have any redirect?

11 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Defence Exhibit 14 was not offered. I do not know

13 whether you want to offer the whole statement or whether you just want

14 it offered for identification purposes only to use in questioning?

15 MR. KAY: Only for identification purposes for use in questioning, your

16 Honour.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Very good. Mr. Niemann, you referred to a list

18 of policemen that the witness had prepared, a list of missing

19 policemen or policemen who she thought were missing. You remember

20 there was much dialogue between you two attorneys about it and you did

21 not offer it.


23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Did you intend to offer it?

24 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there anything else from either counsel? No. Is

Page 2650

1 there any objection to Mrs. Klipic being permanently excused?

2 MR. KAY: No, there is not, your Honour.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Klipic you are excused. Thank you for coming

4 to testify. You are excused. You may leave.

5 THE WITNESS: Thank you. I want the truth to come out.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may leave.

7 (The witness withdrew).

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for lunch then until 2.30.

9 (12.50 p.m.)

10 (Luncheon Adjournment).



13 (2.40 p.m.)

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I apologise to the lawyers and to Mr. Tadic for the

15 Trial Chamber being almost 10 minutes late. We have been rather

16 careful with the time and encouraged the parties to be here and ready

17 and sometimes we have come in and you have not been here, so we

18 apologise to you. We were meeting on three other matters and we spent

19 our lunch hour eating whatever we were eating and working, so I

20 apologise. We will make it up somehow -- we will make up the time,

21 that is! So, where are we? Mr. Niemann?

22 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, the Prosecution -----

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I am sorry. Is it on the correct channel? All I

24 had said, Mr. Tadic, is that I apologise for the Judges coming in

25 late, nine minutes late. The reason we were late is that we were

Page 2651

1 meeting to discuss three or four other matters and so we spent our

2 lunch hour doing that, but I do apologise because we wanted to set a

3 standard of being on time. Mr. Tieger, would you call your next

4 witness, please?

5 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour. The Prosecution's next witness is Nihad

6 Seferovic.


8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Seferovic, would you please take that oath?

9 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare -- a solemn declaration.

10 I

11 solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth and

12 nothing but the truth.

13 (The witness was sworn)

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated. Mr. Tieger, you may

15 begin.

16 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.

17 Examined by MR. TIEGER

18 Q. Sir, will you state your name please?

19 A. Nihad Seferovic.

20 Q. Mr. Seferovic, where were you born?

21 A. In Kozarac.

22 Q. What is your nationality?

23 A. Muslim.

24 Q. Did you grow up in Kozarac?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2652

1 Q. On what street in Kozarac did you grow up?

2 A. Marsala Tita Street, No. 38.

3 Q. What was your occupation before the war?

4 A. I was a carpenter in the sawmill. I was engaged in timber processing

5 at the sawmill. I processed timber at the sawmill.

6 Q. Did you serve in the JNA?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What were your duties as a soldier with the JNA?

9 A. For six months I was in infantry and then I was in a work department.

10 Q. In what year were you born, sir?

11 A. 1950.

12 Q. In the 1970s and the beginning of the 1980s did you work frequently

13 outside of Kozarac in parts of Europe?

14 A. Yes, all the time.

15 Q. During that time did you return to Kozarac as often as you could?

16 A. Yes, especially for weekends.

17 Q. In the 1980s, around 1984 or so, did you return to Kozarac for good

18 to stay in work?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You did not leave until the war?

21 A. That is correct.

22 Q. Did you build a home for yourself in the area of your parents' home?

23 A. Yes, 70 metres, up to 70 metres from the road, from the old house.

24 Q. Sir, I would like to show you a video tape and ask if you will

25 identify homes and businesses as you see them on the video. It may be

Page 2653

1 moving fast, and I also would like you, if you can, to point out the

2 area of your home that you can see on the video. So if we could have

3 Exhibit 195 shown, please?

4 (Exhibit 195 was shown)

5 THE WITNESS: Krkici, a pastry shop, pastry shop, butchers, bakery,

6 "Restaurant".

7 Q. Is that an actual restaurant or a building called "Restaurant"?

8 A. A building called "Restaurant".

9 Q. OK. Now can we proceed?

10 A. Dule's neighbour, Dule's coffee bar house, family house, neighbour's

11 house, then shopping, a road to hospital, neighbour's house, another

12 one, another one, another one. Here a shop ought to be, fifth, sixth

13 -- stop, this is my house. If you can get it back slightly to the

14 left?

15 Q. Forwards, I think.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Stop here.

18 A. OK. Just a little bit forward.

19 Q. Just a tiny bit forward, please.

20 A. Yes, yes, my house, my old house, and the new one cannot be seen.

21 Q. Can we proceed, please?

22 A. Yes, Ismet Fazlic's, Alija Redic's, the Fire Brigade, old Municipal

23 Hall, Edam Susic's, post office, cinema, beyond the cinema, the road

24 to the old town, a shop, a shop, summer garden, Hamza Tadic's house,

25 old post office, a summer garden, a road to the old town, a shop,

Page 2654

1 supermarket, Vakuf seat, shops, Mezarluk, which is cemeteries, a road

2 to the old town and surrounding villages, the mosque, cemeteries in

3 front, mosque, yes.

4 Q. OK, thank you.

5 A. Not at all.

6 Q. Sir, you pointed out the house and cafe of Dule Tadic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. That appeared to be fewer than 10 houses away from your house, as you

9 pointed it out?

10 A. Not 10, eight or nine, I do not remember.

11 Q. Did you know Dule Tadic when you were growing up?

12 A. Yes, I knew him.

13 Q. Did you play together as children?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What name did you know him by as a child?

16 A. "Dule", "Dusko", "Dusan".

17 Q. Were you closer in age to his older brother?

18 A. Yes, Mladen and Ljubo.

19 Q. Did you also know Dule Tadic's parents' names?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. What was his father's name?

22 A. Late Ostoja.

23 Q. His mother?

24 A. Staka.

25 Q. Did you continue to know Dule Tadic as you grew up?

Page 2655

1 A. Until I found a job -- I mean, I have always worked outside but there

2 was, "Hello, how are you?" since we were children. When I began to

3 work, then it would be: "Hello, what's new? How are you?" and things

4 like that.

5 Q. After you returned to Kozarac to stay, did you see Dule Tadic

6 frequently and chat with him often?

7 A. Not so often, but we talked.

8 Q. Did you know who his wife was?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. What is her name?

11 A. Mira.

12 Q. Did you know how many children he had?

13 A. Yes, yes, they had two children, I think, both girls.

14 Q. When Dule Tadic built his cafe did you participate in that?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Was that because you were a professional carpenter and you were paid?

17 A. No, I did not know how it got there. I think we were first building

18 the foundations and then we went upward to the attic, and then I went

19 on working at Mladen's and at Dule's, from the foundations to the

20 finishing of the roof.

21 Q. Did you work on the inside of the cafe as well?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Was Mladen making an addition to the home at this time?

24 A. No, he was not building a house but he was making some additions to

25 his house. I do not know, I mean, whatever it was, a house again.

Page 2656

1 Q. Did other people, other neighbours, local people from the area, help

2 in the building of the cafe?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was all of that assistance because these people were paid or was part

5 of it a reflection of a local custom?

6 A. Yes, it is a custom when some major work has to be done, and then

7 acquaintances come and, yes, it was all agreed upon, but when there is

8 a major thing going on, then we helped with the foundations, with the

9 ground floor and the roof.

10 Q. Is there a word for that custom?

11 A. Yes, "gajret", we call it "gajret".

12 Q. What does "gajret" mean?

13 A. I did not hear what you said.

14 Q. Does "gajret" have a translation? Does the word "gajret" have a

15 translation?

16 A. I do not know. I have not heard.

17 Q. OK. It just refers to that custom of helping neighbours out?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did local Muslims participate in the building of Dule Tadic's cafe,

20 according to the custom of gajret?

21 A. Yes, yes, my brother was there too.

22 Q. Over the years of knowing Dule Tadic since the time he was a child

23 and you were a child, and associating with each other as adults, did

24 you come to know his appearance quite well?

25 A. Yes, yes, I did.

Page 2657

1 Q. What was his build? Was he a thin man, a strong man?

2 A. Yes, he was quite solid, I should say -- he still is.

3 Q. Did he sometimes have a beard?

4 A. Sometimes, not always, sometimes.

5 Q. So sometimes he did and sometimes he did not?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. Did you know who some of his friends or acquaintances were?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know whether or not he was friendly with Emir Karabasic?

10 A. Yes, yes, they were friends. They trained Karate together, practised

11 Karate together, but later on, no, I do not know.

12 Q. As the time grew closer to the outbreak of conflict, the attack on

13 Kozarac, did Dule Tadic begin to associate less with Muslims and more

14 with Serbs?

15 A. I do not know that.

16 Q. Do you know who he was associating with shortly before the time of

17 the attack on Kozarac?

18 A. Yes, I know Miso Radulovic and Vaso -- I do not know his last name.

19 Q. Who was Miso Radulovic?

20 A. He was a teacher in Kozarac.

21 Q. Was he a Muslim or a Serb?

22 A. I really do not know.

23 Q. Who was Vaso?

24 A. Vaso was a Montenegrin.

25 Q. Did you know a man named Goran Borovnica?

Page 2658

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Where was he from? Where did he live?

3 A. I know where he lived, but I do not know where his mother and father

4 were from.

5 Q. In what town did he live?

6 A. In Kozarac, he lived above the "Restaurant".

7 Q. Do you know whether he and Dule Tadic knew each other?

8 A. I think, yes.

9 Q. Did you see them in each other's presence or associating with each

10 other often before the time of the conflict?

11 A. I think he came often to Dule Tadic's cafe before the war.

12 Q. Mr. Seferovic, let me ask you a few questions about the period of

13 time immediately before the attack on Kozarac, and by that I mean

14 within just a few weeks before. Was it possible at that time for

15 Muslims to travel outside Kozarac?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Were the roads blocked for Muslims both in the direction of Prijedor

18 and in the direction of Banja Luka?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you remember whether or not anything had happened to the

21 television programming by that time?

22 A. Yes, all of the relays were taken away and we were forced to watch

23 Serbian television.

24 Q. Were any of the important institutions in Kozarac being guarded?

25 A. Yes, yes, they were.

Page 2659

1 Q. Do you remember which ones?

2 A. I think that the school was guarded, the church and several other

3 institutions in Kozarac, supermarkets, and I do not remember what

4 else.

5 Q. How many guards do you remember at each institution?

6 A. Up to two, up to three guards -- actually sawmill as well, I forget

7 to mention that, factories around Kozarac. Of course, it was normal

8 that they increased the number of guards, they increased it by two

9 and, how should I say this, yes, there was a civilian protection.

10 There were people, there were young men that had the SMB uniforms and,

11 of course, they had weapons.

12 Q. Were there any checkpoints?

13 A. Yes, yes, in major intersections.

14 Q. Which nationalities were involved in this guarding?

15 A. I think that all three nationalities, Serbs, Croats and Muslims.

16 Q. Do you recall when the attack on Kozarac began?

17 A. I think it was 26th, I know it was a Sunday, but I do not remember

18 exactly what date it was.

19 Q. Had the Serbian residents of Kozarac already left?

20 A. Yes, but not all.

21 Q. Do you know whether or not Dule Tadic was still in Kozarac when the

22 attack began?

23 A. He was not.

24 Q. Where were you when the attack began?

25 A. I was in Kozarac.

Page 2660

1 Q. At work or at home?

2 A. No, it was Sunday so I did not work.

3 Q. What did you do when the attack started?

4 A. I ran out into the road. A car came by, I sat into the car and I

5 said "stop" and then I went into the hills, into Besici.

6 Q. Did you stop to change your clothes or to pack any belongings?

7 A. No, no. No, I just left. I was dressed in civilian clothes as

8 usual.

9 Q. Did you have a weapon with you?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you end up at the home of people you knew?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. Did other Muslims from central Kozarac also flee to that part of the

14 hills?

15 A. No, not all of them. There were several convoys.

16 Q. Did you go back to Kozarac at any point to retrieve some belongings?

17 A. Yes, yes. I did go back later. In the evening I went back home. I

18 had a lot of birds and I fed the birds. I took my back pack and I

19 went back into the hills.

20 Q. Was the shelling still going on at that time?

21 A. Yes. Yes, it was.

22 Q. Had most of the citizens of Kozarac fled from Kozarac by that time?

23 A. Yes. Yes, they did.

24 Q. You indicated that the attack began on a Sunday. Do you remember

25 what day of the week it was when people first started to surrender?

Page 2661

1 A. No, I do not remember at all what day it was.

2 Q. Was it within a -----

3 A. I know that it was a very nice day in the morning.

4 Q. Was it within approximately three days after the shelling began?

5 A. I think so. I do not remember because I went through a terrible

6 catastrophe myself.

7 Q. In any event, whatever day of the week it was or whatever the date

8 was, did you go into Kozarac? Did you leave Besici and go into

9 Kozarac on the first day that people began to surrender?

10 A. Yes, I did. I was looking for my brother, for my family members,

11 friends, relatives.

12 Q. When you first got into Kozarac what was happening? What did you

13 see?

14 A. Yes, people were leaving. They did not know where they were going.

15 I went to my brother's house.

16 Q. On what street did your brother live?

17 A. I do not remember the name of the street, but straight from the

18 church towards the hospital and towards the main street. The road was

19 going straight and then the hospital would be to the right and the

20 main street to the left, from the church.

21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I may at this time, perhaps we could have

22 marked for identification a map which may assist the witness? That

23 would be Exhibit 220. (To the witness): Mr. Seferovic, do you

24 recognise this as depicting portions of Kozarac?

25 A. Yes, yes. That is very obvious.

Page 2662

1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender this for admission.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

3 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 220 will be admitted.

5 MR. TIEGER: May we have that placed on the elmo, please?

6 (To the witness): First of all, Mr. Seferovic, can you point out where

7 your house was located? If you could point on the map which is on the

8 machine to your right?

9 A. I think here and here. (Indicated).

10 Q. Can you point out the general area of Besici or the general direction

11 of Besici to the extent it is possible on this map?

12 A. I think that the bridge is here.

13 Q. Mr. Seferovic, you will have to point on the document that is on that

14 machine if we are going to be able to see it.

15 A. This is the first bridge that you can take for Besici. This is the

16 second bridge that you can take to go to Besici.

17 Q. Can you point out on this map where your brother's house was?

18 A. (Indicated) Here, somewhere here, yes.

19 Q. That would be the street between the hospital and the church?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was your brother at his home when you got there?

22 A. No, I did not find anyone at home.

23 Q. After that, did you move to a point a little bit closer to the

24 Prijedor/Banja Luka highway?

25 A. Yes, yes. I saw what was happening around the church.

Page 2663

1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I could have this marked as Exhibit 221 for

2 identification? It is an enlarged portion of the same map which was

3 just introduced. (To the witness): Mr. Seferovic, can you recognise

4 this as an enlarged portion of the same map you were just looking at?

5 A. Yes, I think it is just -- it just shows a wider area, yes, a larger

6 one.

7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender 221 for admission.

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 221 will be admitted.

10 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Mr. Seferovic, can you show us on this map

11 where your brother's house was and the position you moved to after

12 leaving your brother's house?

13 A. (Indicated) I think here. This is where my brother's house, and I

14 then went through the gardens, through the back yards and then I came

15 to this house, the last house here.

16 Q. What is across the street from that spot?

17 A. There is a church yard and a church.

18 Q. The area you were in where you stopped, what was there?

19 A. There is -- in front of the house there are bushes and an orchard

20 with flowers.

21 Q. Can we call up Z5-29, please? Mr. Seferovic, do you recognise what

22 is shown in the photograph on the bottom?

23 A. Yes, a church.

24 Q. Is that the church which was across the street from the position you

25 were in?

Page 2664

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. First of all, before we do that, do you see the fence in front of the

3 church?

4 A. Yes, I see.

5 Q. In the picture at the upper left, can you see a continuation of that

6 fence shown in that photograph? Perhaps we can have the upper left

7 photograph enlarged?

8 A. Yes, I can see now.

9 Q. Would that be shown on the left side of the photograph?

10 A. Yes, yes. One can see it now.

11 Q. Do you see the orchard or garden where you were that day in this

12 photograph?

13 A. Yes, I can see it very well.

14 Q. Is that the area depicted on the right side of the screen?

15 A. Yes, on the right side of the screen.

16 Q. That is the area immediately behind those hedges where the trees are?

17 A. Yes, those are the plums, plum trees.

18 Q. In this photograph we can also see a road that is the road on which

19 the fence is. As we are looking at the photograph, that road leads

20 toward where? I am talking about the road that the people in the

21 picture are walking on.

22 A. This road is leading to Krkici, to Kozarac.

23 Q. We can also see the bottom portion of a road which meets that road in

24 the lower right-hand part of the picture. If we could return to

25 Z5-29, please?

Page 2665

1 A. Yes, this road up here leads to the hospital, to the right, on the

2 right side, and the road on the left is leading to the main street.

3 Q. So the picture on the right is the road leading from the area of the

4 church to the hospital?

5 A. Yes, and the one on the left side towards -- is leading towards

6 Marsala Tita Street.

7 Q. So these two pictures show an intersection?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can we have the picture on the upper right blown up, please? Just to

10 clarify, although everyone may already appreciate this fact, are those

11 hedges to the left in this photograph then the same hedges that are

12 shown in the picture we were looking at before?

13 A. The hedges on the left, yes.

14 Q. So, you were on the other side, in the yard on the other side of

15 those hedges then?

16 A. Yes. I was by the plum trees because it was summer or spring time,

17 it was spring time, so the trees were covered with leaves, and in this

18 picture everything, the trees are naked so it all looks like it is all

19 together.

20 Q. Could we return to Z5-29 once more? So when you arrived in the yard

21 which is most clearly shown in the photograph on the upper left, were

22 you able to see across the street to what was happening by the Serbian

23 church?

24 A. Yes, I could see clearly everything because I could move, I do not

25 know in what diameter, but in front of the church there was police

Page 2666

1 from Kozarac with their hands below their necks -- behind their necks.

2 I think there were six. I do not quite remember. Out of those six I

3 recognised four, Emir, Osman, Edin and Ekrem. In front were Dusko

4 Tadic, Borovnica, Dule, and some other paramilitary soldiers. I am

5 not quite sure who they were.

6 Q. You mentioned some names of Muslim police officers; you mentioned the

7 name "Edin". Did you know his last name?

8 A. Besic.

9 Q. You also mentioned the name "Ekrem". Did you know his last name?

10 A. Also Besic.

11 Q. You mentioned the name "Emir"?

12 A. Karabasic.

13 Q. You mentioned "Osman", did you know his last name?

14 A. No, Osman was not from Kozarac. I just know his name.

15 Q. Did you know his position with the police?

16 A. Yes, he was a Commander of a police unit, something like that.

17 Q. You also mentioned some paramilitary soldiers. Approximately how many

18 paramilitary soldiers were there?

19 A. About 15. I did not count them. I saw a larger group of soldiers.

20 Q. What nationality were those paramilitary soldiers?

21 A. Naturally Serbs.

22 Q. Sir, perhaps I can ask you to mark on Exhibit 221 the position the

23 Muslim policemen were in and the position the Serbian paramilitary

24 soldiers were in when you saw them? Your Honour, we can either do

25 that with the document as it is or I can supply another copy of the

Page 2667

1 same document.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff, do you have any objection to the

3 witness marking on Exhibit 221?

4 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No problem at all.


6 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Sir, does the straight line you have marked

7 indicate the police officers or the Muslim police officers or the

8 Serbian soldiers?

9 A. Yes, because they were standing in line.

10 Q. I am sorry, the straight line is which, the policemen, the Muslim

11 policemen or the Serb soldiers?

12 A. The Muslim policemen, not Serb army.

13 Q. The Serbian soldiers are indicated by the various dots between the

14 church and the paths?

15 A. Yes, yes, yes.

16 Q. You were right across the street, is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were there also civilians in the area?

19 A. Yes, there was a larger group passing by, and I paid attention to

20 them just for a minute and then afterwards I concentrated my attention

21 to the church and what was happening around it.

22 Q. As you were watching, did the Serbian soldiers direct or control the

23 movements of the civilians who were going by?

24 A. Yes, no-one was allowed to look to the side. They were waving with

25 arms, with weapons, and they were pointing their weapons towards the

Page 2668

1 civilians.

2 Q. How were the Serbian soldiers dressed?

3 A. Camouflage uniforms, some may have been in SMB. I do not know. I

4 did not pay attention to everything.

5 Q. Were the Serb soldiers armed?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did any of them have their weapons aimed at or trained at the Muslim

8 policemen?

9 A. Yes, of course. It was -- the arms were always aimed at us.

10 Q. Did any of the Serbian soldiers have any type of hats?

11 A. Yes, they did. Some had some caps, some did not. I do not remember.

12 It was a beautiful day. I mean, it does not really matter. Most of

13 them had caps.

14 Q. Do you recall whether any of them had arm bands?

15 A. Yes, they did around the arm, they had blue or white. I do not

16 remember it all, but I think that, by and large, they had some white

17 arm bands.

18 Q. Did you continue to observe this scene for some period of time?

19 A. Yes, yes. Those paramilitaries provoked the civilians no end. At a

20 certain point, Dule Tadic came, dragged Osman from the group, shouted,

21 "Follow me", got him by his neck, and cut his throat and then stabbed

22 him below that several times, I do not know how many times, and then

23 he proceeded to Edin Besic, and with the same -- and he hit him in the

24 same way as he did Osman; and this was followed by incredible fire,

25 and I then ran away. I followed the same path and I cut through and

Page 2669

1 ran to Besici.

2 Q. I would like to move through that with you just a little bit slower,

3 if I may? When you saw Dule Tadic approach Osman, exactly what did

4 you see him do?

5 A. He pulled him out quickly from that line up. I did not see the

6 knife, only blood gushed, burst to all sides, and there were more

7 stabs and then he moved over to Edin. I saw the same thing on Edin,

8 and then terrible fire ensued to celebrate, I guess, I do not know

9 why, and I retreated in despair.

10 Q. When you say "fire" do you mean gunfire?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. You say you retreated from the scene, where did you go? Did you go

13 back to Besici?

14 A. Yes, I went to Besici very, very slowly. I do not even know how I

15 got there.

16 Q. Did you use the main streets or some other way of getting back to

17 Besici?

18 A. No, no, there are many roads in Kozarac. All houses are wide open,

19 wherever you enter, nobody. I mean, before the war anybody was

20 welcome, all the houses were wide open, so that I could -- the last

21 time I could go through without a welcome, I could go to Besici. You

22 do not understand that. I used to the word to explain that I could

23 slowly, slowly go through them to Besici.

24 Q. Within a few days did you return do Kozarac?

25 A. Yes, I kept coming back to Kozarac because I had many birds, I felt

Page 2670

1 the need to feed them. The last time, unfortunately, I was hit in the

2 leg by a bullet, I do not know where from, was it a stray bullet or

3 whether it was on purpose but I was fired all the time, non-stop

4 around the clock.

5 Q. After you were struck by that bullet did you manage to make your way

6 back to Besici?

7 A. Yes, yes. I did manage to get back to Besici with the help of a

8 stick, on a stick, yes.

9 Q. Where did you stay after that?

10 A. Yes, I stayed in that chestnut grove. There is a stream and the

11 nature had dug it out, there was -- the rains had eroded it and they

12 sort of excavated a shelter and I stayed there. I cannot remember

13 anything, how long, because I was in terrible pain. I was all alone,

14 and the only help was alcohol and my underwear, my under-shirts.

15 Q. When you say "alcohol" do you mean alcohol to drink or alcohol for

16 your wound?

17 A. No, I do not drink. I stopped drinking some seven or eight years

18 ago, I do not remember, seven years ago, I believe. No, I used it to

19 separate the wound from my clothes because it stuck to it. It was

20 bleeding terribly and I had nothing else. I had to clean it somehow.

21 The only thing I had, alcohol or plum brandy our Slivovitz.

22 Q. Were you assisted by a friend or someone from Besici at the beginning

23 of the time or for some period of time while you were in that hole?

24 A. Yes, yes, a friend brought food, basics, some bread, for the first

25 five, maybe six, days, I do not remember, and then he left and I never

Page 2671

1 saw him again to this day.

2 Q. Did you finally leave the hole and attempt to go back to Kozarac in

3 an effort to find your family or friends?

4 A. Yes, I do not remember how many days I spent in the hole, but the

5 pain was excruciating. I fainted several times and when the swelling

6 receded I stood up. I somehow found superhuman strength to stand up,

7 to pull myself up, with the help of that stick, and move and go and

8 try to find my brother because I knew he had stayed in Kozarac, and

9 -----

10 Q. I will proceed then. When you got to Kozarac, did you reach your

11 brother or were you unable to do so?

12 A. When I climbed down, I cut across the road, Besici, Mutnik, and I was

13 going down to the old town. I was very thirsty, exhausted after that

14 journey and I drank a lot of water. Since everything was overgrown,

15 grass, plum trees were all bent down to the black earth, so I walked

16 normally. I was not even trying to hide. When I stepped on to the

17 road I heard a burst of fire, one and then two more, and they were all

18 firing at me.

19 I do not know what it was, but I was not hit and they

20 captured me that night. The whole night with them, ill treatment. I

21 do not know what they did. The wound was bleeding. I could not stop

22 the bleeding. Rifle butts were hitting me from all sides. No, no, I

23 do not remember. I do not remember almost anything.

24 Q. Where did they take you after that?

25 A. Yes, I spent the night there and then in the morning two men came,

Page 2672

1 battered me, two, "Ustasha". They tied my hands round their neck and

2 hung me by the rail next to the small truck. For a while I knew, then

3 I fainted. I was lying on the floor. I do not know how long they

4 drove me, I do not remember and, yes, I got to the camp.

5 Five, six of them got me and then threw me up as a basketball,

6 head down against the ground. I all burst and then shoes in the jaw,

7 I do not know, and after that I do not know.

8 Q. The translation I received or what I heard was that you said there

9 were two Ustasha who tied your hands; what did you mean by "Ustasha"?

10 What nationality were these persons?

11 A. No, they called me "Ustasha". They were two Chetniks, those, the

12 Serb paramilitary army, they called me "Ustasha" -- me who has never

13 picked up a rifle except in the army.

14 Q. Which camp were you taken to?

15 A. The camp Omarska.

16 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, before I move on, can we tender Z5-29 as Exhibit

17 222?

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

19 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Just a matter of clarification, that is the combined

20 picture, not the blown up?

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It is the three photos, I think.

22 MR. WLADIMIROFF: If it is the combined picture of three of them, then it

23 is fine. Then we understand what is tendered here.

24 MR. TIEGER: As a matter of fact, it brings up a good point. I would like

25 to tender the three photos individually so the court can have much

Page 2673

1 clearer and make it easier for the court, than the print out which

2 will eventually come from the three.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: But not the blow-ups?


5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. How do you want to label them? 222A, B,

6 C or 222 jointly, maybe A, B, C so we will not lose them.

7 MR. TIEGER: That is fine.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Prosecution Exhibit 222A, B and C will be admitted

9 without objection.

10 MR. WLADIMIROFF: What then is A, B and C?

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I would say -- A will be -- I do not know, we will

12 ask them to mark them. That is a good point, Mr. Wladimiroff. How

13 would you like them marked, Mr. Tieger?

14 MR. TIEGER: I would ask that we have some representation of the exhibit

15 we were looking at before, so it could either be 222 and then A, B and

16 C would be the individual photos.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. 222 will be the joint all three photos and then

18 how will you label them individually?

19 MR. TIEGER: If I could have the numbers back? I am sorry. I would label

20 A49/9, 49/10 would be B and 1/27 would be C. So that would be 1/27 is

21 the church at the bottom. That is why I put that as C. 49/9 and

22 49/10 are the left and right of the photos above. So, moving across,

23 you have A on the left, B on the right and C on the bottom.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff, do you understand that?

25 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I understand that. Thank you very much.

Page 2674

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. They are admitted. Thank you.

2 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Mr. Seferovic, do you recognise the model in

3 front of you as a representation of Omarska camp?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Perhaps you can show us into which part of Omarska you were taken

6 after you arrived? We will do it one at a time. If you could show

7 us, first, the building you were taken to?

8 A. Yes, here, I was brought here to this building for interrogation.

9 (Indicated) I did not say anything. I could not say anything.

10 Really, I was not conscious at all because of the beatings. They did

11 not even interrogate me or beat me. They simply sent me to this big

12 building. I do not remember when or how. I only know I came to the

13 last room. I think -----

14 Q. Can you point first, sir, and then we will .....

15 A. This is where the room is here. (Indicated), here, the last room.

16 Q. OK. Your Honour, if we could remove the roofs, perhaps the witness

17 would be able to show us the room he was in?

18 A. No, there is no need. The roofs, these roofs kept us from -- kept

19 us warm very well. We were right below the roof. We were right below

20 this roof which was a tin roof. Do you know how a tin roof heats in

21 the summer -- no, you do not have to.

22 Q. May I ask you this when maybe you can describe where you were, were

23 you on the ground floor or the upper floor of that large building?

24 A. Yes, on the upper floor. There is a large staircase, a staircase,

25 then they turn, then you turn. On the right-hand is the entrance to

Page 2675

1 the big room, and to the left is the toilet and some cupboards. There

2 was no room for a packet of cigarettes. That is how we were lying

3 down. From the door to the last part, to the last, there was no room

4 at all.

5 Q. Within a short time after you arrived, did you see anyone in that

6 same room whom you had seen at the church?

7 A. Yes, yes, almost all villagers from Kozarac, almost all my friends,

8 neighbours, and then I was very, very surprised when I saw Emir

9 Karabasic. I was very weak, exhausted. I was lying down. I could

10 not move and people made room for me, accepted me in the camp. I do

11 not know. That night passed.

12 I think that Emir suffered a major battering. The next day

13 three of us remained, myself, Emir Karabasic, Mujo Kolera, Kulenovic.

14 The whole camp went out. I got up. I crawled to Emir and took out a

15 cigarette. I had a slice of bread. We shared it, partook of it, and

16 then I lit a cigarette and asked Emir: "Why are you shaking? Why do

17 you have nightmares when you cannot get up properly?" He said: "They

18 wanted to cut my throat but I survived".

19 I told him about what happened before the church and he

20 confirmed it. The folk were already entering the camp and the room

21 and everybody had to sit in his place because none of the -- none of

22 the camp inmates would give his room, and I moved away crawling and

23 sat back in my place, disappointed, disenchanted.

24 Q. Was Emir Karabasic called out of the room within a few days of that?

25 A. The next day, I believe, towards -- in the late afternoon he was

Page 2676

1 called out, Jasko Hrnic, Enver Alic, Enver's father, I do not remember

2 his name, but he was of an advanced age. He was in my room. He was

3 called out to see what was in store for his son, whether he would

4 survive.

5 Q. Did you hear screams coming from the downstairs area?

6 A. Yes, those were superhuman screams. I do not know whence the

7 strength to these people to shout so much, to yell so loudly, and then

8 all of a sudden everybody went silent, silence reigned everywhere,

9 everybody kept silent for two days.

10 Q. Did Emir Karabasic return to the room?

11 A. Never, no, not one of the three of them came back, nor did I see

12 them.

13 Q. During the time you were in Omarska were other prisoners called from

14 the rooms and beaten?

15 A. Every day, every day they called out, regardless of who had done what

16 or who had been what, what had been, the rich people, intelligentsia

17 were killed and the poor people, of course, they were always suffer

18 the worst.

19 Q. Do you know whether or not prisoners were beaten during

20 interrogations? Could you see their conditions before they left for

21 interrogation and when they came back?

22 A. No, they did not have to speak. They never did. One could see it on

23 them. They were all like your rope; only their faces were whole.

24 Q. How often were you fed in Omarska?

25 A. I do not know if I can say that that was food. We were given

Page 2677

1 one-eighth part of a loaf of bread. That was a slice of bread a day.

2 It almost always, some left overs which had turned sour, rancid.

3 Q. Were you beaten in Omarska?

4 A. Yes, yes. Yes, I kept getting beaten. I was always the last one. I

5 could not run because one went to eat, running, a group of 30 had to

6 finish their meal in about half a minute to a minute and they would

7 eat and I often stayed hungry. I would not get my meal. I would

8 simply get my bread and go out.

9 Q. Were there prisoners who were called out to be beaten who did not

10 return to their rooms?

11 A. Yes, every evening, every evening, every evening, they called people

12 out and they never returned to the room. They only filled it up from

13 other places in Kozarac and Prijedor.

14 Q. Were you transferred to Manjaca camp when the bulk of the prisoners

15 were moved from Omarska?

16 A. Yes, yes, yes. I was transferred to Manjaca. They read out lists

17 for eight hours, and then when they would finally have so many -- they

18 could never agree about the number of the prisoners on the lists --

19 then finally they told us: "Well, get on to the buses", so we got

20 there and they were beating us with their rifle butts, with their

21 boots and trampling on us.

22 Then we started for Manjaca, I mean Omarska, when we boarded

23 the buses to Manjaca. We arrived late, late in Manjaca. I did not

24 have a watch. Nobody had a watch. They had taken them all from us --

25 jewellery, watches, they took off sneakers of the inmates. What is

Page 2678

1 this century, to take the sneakers away, to leave an inmate bare

2 footed so that he could put those sneakers on or shoes.

3 When we got to Manjaca, it was dark and the camp would not

4 admit us. We slept on Manjaca. Everything was all right until late

5 in the evening when the singing of the soldiers began and then battery

6 began again, screams. Each one of us experienced, saw it in his own

7 way, but one had to go through it.

8 In the morning, when the dawn broke out they let us off those

9 buses. I do not know how many people died, cramped, and they were

10 taken out from the buses on to the clearing in front of the buses; and

11 we were sitting there. They cut the throats of several more people

12 but I did not see it; other inmates saw that. I entered Manjaca

13 toward the evening only.

14 Q. Mr. Seferovic, I am sorry, I am not going to go into any details of

15 Manjaca with you so that is why I interrupted you. I shall just have a

16 couple more questions for you. You have told us about knowing Dule

17 Tadic since you were a child and he was a child. Can you look around

18 the courtroom, please, and tell us if Mr. Tadic is here?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you point him out, please?

21 A. Yes, the gentleman up there. (Indicated).

22 Q. Is that the man with the dark hair wearing the blue jacket and tie?

23 A. Yes, that is it.

24 Q. Mr. Seferovic, are you absolutely certain that this is the man you

25 saw at the church slaughtering Osman and Edin?

Page 2679

1 A. Yes, I am certain. Yes, I am certain that this is the man.

2 MR. TIEGER: That is all I have, your Honour.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

4 (4.00 p.m.)

5 (The court adjourned for a short time)

6 (4.20 p.m.)

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Will there be cross-examination, Mr. Kay?

8 MR. KAY: Thank you.

9 Cross-examined by MR. KAY

10 Q. Mr. Seferovic, you have told the court about leaving Kozarac on the

11 day of the shelling of that town, and going to stay in the land behind

12 Kozarac towards Besici, is that right?

13 A. Yes, that is right.

14 Q. You told the court earlier today that you think you were staying in

15 that area for about three days after the shelling and then you

16 returned to Kozarac to see what was happening and it was on that day

17 that you saw the incident at the church?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. You could not remember precisely the date when the attack on Kozarac

20 took place, but you remembered it was a Sunday?

21 A. Yes, it was a Sunday.

22 Q. When you were outside Kozarac during that time when the town was

23 still being shelled, were you on your own or with other people?

24 A. Naturally with other people in the hills.

25 Q. Presumably, there was a large number of people up there in the forest

Page 2680

1 behind Kozarac with you?

2 A. Yes, there was a large number of people in the woods and the hills,

3 in the basements. Besici were shelled the least.

4 Q. The day that you went back into Kozarac and went to your brother's

5 house, can you remember which day that was?

6 A. When Kozarac surrendered, I also do not remember what day it was, but

7 I know that it was a nice day and that people surrendered.

8 Q. Presumably, a lot of people surrendered at different times?

9 A. Yes, yes, different times and a lot of people surrendered because

10 Kozarac could not be taken over in one day.

11 Q. When you said three days after the shelling, would that have been the

12 Wednesday that you went back into Kozarac to your brother's house?

13 A. I do not think so.

14 Q. Can you help me with which day it would have been?

15 A. I think it was a Tuesday, but I do not remember, I think it was a

16 Tuesday.

17 Q. I know a lot of chaos and despair occurred amongst the people who

18 were outside Kozarac but, if possible, I want to try to identify this

19 particular day that you say you saw Dusko Tadic kill these two men.

20 Perhaps we can retrace your steps and if that helps you to identify

21 the day, it will be of great importance, do you understand?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. You left fairly quickly on the Sunday when the shelling started, is

24 that right?

25 A. Yes, very, very soon because Besici are not far -- Besici, the

Page 2681

1 village of Besici, is not far from Kozarac.

2 Q. You went up to stay in Besici to avoid what was happening down in the

3 town?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were you able to see the shelling of Kozarac from where you were in

6 Besici?

7 A. Yes, because Besici is on the hill and Kozarac is in the plain.

8 Q. Can you remember how long the shelling took, how many days the

9 shelling took of Kozarac? Was it just that one day, the Sunday, or

10 was there shelling on the next day?

11 A. Yes, they shelled Kozarac all the time until the people surrendered.

12 Q. Are you able to tell me how many days that was that Kozarac was

13 shelled?

14 A. Even after Kozarac surrendered it was constantly shelled.

15 Q. When you went to Besici, did you stay in a house there or did you

16 stay outside in the woods?

17 A. No, I was in a house, in a basement, because this is a hillside area

18 and it is easy to dig out a basement.

19 Q. Were there other people in that basement with you?

20 A. Yes, there were other people, my family, brothers or sisters-in-law,

21 children were there. I have four brothers and the three of us were in

22 Kozarac and one lives in Zagreb.

23 Q. So would it be right to say that this building in Besici was

24 somewhere where your family also lived, another part of your family?

25 A. No, they did not live there. This is our -- this is the family of

Page 2682

1 our acquaintances.

2 Q. Did you stay in that basement, the first night, the Sunday, that the

3 shelling started?

4 A. No, I did not. I went back to Kozarac. I took some personal

5 belongings that I needed the most, my underwear, my shirts -- and I

6 really needed them when I was wounded because I used that to tie my

7 leg. I did not have any bandages or anything like that.

8 Q. So, although the shelling was taking place on Kozarac on the Sunday

9 night, you went back into Kozarac to get some of your personal

10 belongings, is that right?

11 A. Yes, yes, the mortars were falling and I went to get my personal

12 belongings.

13 Q. You got your belongings then that first night. Did you stay that

14 night in Kozarac or did you return to Besici?

15 A. No, I went back to Besici.

16 Q. You went back to the place that you had been during the day of the

17 Sunday, did you?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. During the next day, which would be the Monday, did you remain in

20 Besici, in the basement?

21 A. Yes, not all the time. I went and took to the people food and

22 blankets. There were women, children, elderly there. There was a

23 large convoy of people. It was terrible.

24 Q. During that day, the Monday, when you were giving blankets and other

25 things to people, was the shelling of Kozarac still happening down

Page 2683

1 below?

2 A. Yes, yes, not just Kozarac, but also surrounding towns that belong to

3 Kozarac, to Muslim population -- and Croatian, Croat population. I

4 forgot to mention that.

5 Q. So the second night, that Monday night, did you remain in Besici or

6 did you visit Kozarac again during the night?

7 A. No, I remained in Besici. I spent the night in the basement. I

8 slept on a hay -- I do not quite remember, yes, it was hay. We had

9 blankets, naturally. I did not go home because I was afraid -- we

10 were afraid of the shells because each shell went right through the

11 house. There was not a house left that was not -- that the shell did

12 not go right through.

13 Q. The next day, which would be the Tuesday, after you had spent the

14 night in the basement, did you remain in Besici?

15 A. No, in the morning I came home. I fed my birds. That was at dawn.

16 I do not remember what hour exactly, but it was dawn. I fed my birds.

17 I poured a lot of water for them, gave them a lot of seeds because I

18 realised that I could not come back every day to feed the birds. Then

19 I went back to Besici again, naturally with bread and blankets and

20 other necessities because the houses were just filled with things.

21 Q. Yes. Presumably, you returned to the place where you had been

22 staying before in Besici, to the basement, would that be right?

23 A. No, I do not remember, but it was not just one basement, or one

24 convoy of people. There were more people there. The largest convoy

25 was between Kozarac, kamenje, and I also went to visit that convoy and

Page 2684

1 I took them food and blankets and I do not know what else.

2 Q. Again there would have been a large number of people, would that be

3 right, in the hills and wood behind Kozarac sheltering from what had

4 happened?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. So, having fed your birds at dawn, you left Kozarac and you went back

7 up into the hills and again gave out some of the blankets and supplies

8 that you had been able to take?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That night, on the Tuesday night, can you remember whether you stayed

11 in the basement or whether you stayed elsewhere?

12 A. On Tuesday?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. No, I do not remember.

15 Q. After you had fed -----

16 A. I do not remember if Kozarac had already surrendered at that time, if

17 it was Wednesday or not. It took several days for Kozarac to

18 surrender. 26,000 people cannot leave the town in a day. This is why

19 I do not remember what day it was when Kozarac surrendered.

20 Q. Perhaps if we take you through the steps that you took, what happened

21 to you, we may be able to identify the day. You have told us about

22 feeding your birds on the Tuesday morning, and taking more provisions

23 away and taking them up to the people in the hills. Did you return

24 into Kozarac that same day having fed your birds in the early hours of

25 the morning?

Page 2685

1 A. No, I do not remember, but I think that I was in Kozarac on Tuesday.

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. No, I do not remember.

4 Q. So when you fed your birds in the early hours of Tuesday morning,

5 presumably, you had fed them so that they would have enough for a few

6 days, would that be right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you return to those birds again to see that they were fed and

9 watered?

10 A. No, but I did go back constantly to the house to see the birds. Even

11 after Kozarac surrendered, I did that and afterwards. I always went

12 back home and paid attention to the birds, not just mine alone, but

13 also my neighbour's.

14 Q. But having taken things from your house in the early hours of Tuesday

15 morning to give to other people, those would have been people up in

16 the hills behind Kozarac, would they not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Having done that did you go and see your family again? Did you see

19 them?

20 A. On Tuesday?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. Yes, I saw my brother, my younger brother.

23 Q. Did you see him at the basement where you had previously stayed

24 during the shelling of Kozarac?

25 A. No, he was underneath the stones and this is why I went frequently up

Page 2686

1 there.

2 Q. Having seen your younger brother, did you stay that night out of

3 Kozarac up in the hills?

4 A. Yes, I personally spent every night in the basement, or mostly in the

5 basement or outside than in the hills.

6 Q. So when you say you went back into Kozarac to your brother's house

7 which was near the hospital, was that on the Wednesday, the day after

8 you had fed your birds in the morning, or was it on the same day that

9 you had fed them at dawn on Tuesday?

10 A. No, I do not remember what day it was when Kozarac surrendered, but

11 when Kozarac surrendered I went to see my brother.

12 Q. When you went to your brother's house, did you go alone or were you

13 with anyone else?

14 A. No, I was alone.

15 Q. Your brother's house is in that road leading up from the church to

16 the hospital, is that right?

17 A. Yes, on the left side.

18 Q. Perhaps if we could look at photograph 222B and a copy of it placed

19 before the witness? Your Honours do not have copies of these, I take

20 it, is that right?

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No, we do not have them yet, but if you want to they

22 can be put on the overhead projector, if that is needed.

23 MR. KAY: Yes, could it be put on the projector?

24 THE WITNESS: My brother's house was above this van, the first house to

25 the left, above the bend towards hospital, the first house to the

Page 2687

1 left.

2 Q. We can see there a van parked in the road?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Are you able to tell us about how many metres from the church that

5 would be?

6 A. 60, 70 metres, I do not know exactly. I think it is what I told you.

7 Q. Is it about halfway up the road between the church and the hospital?

8 A. No, it is closer to the church.

9 Q. Thank you. Can you remember what time of the day it was when you got

10 to your brother's house?

11 A. It was in the early afternoon.

12 Q. What was happening in Kozarac when you were there at this time?

13 A. All people were going to the gathering point, and that is a road that

14 is parallel to Prijedor/Banja Luka highway, and this old road where

15 the church is is parallel, where the church and the house are, is

16 parallel and that is the old road, and this one below is the new road

17 and it is parallel to this road that goes to Prijedor or Banja Luka.

18 Q. Perhaps if you could look at the plan 220 you can identify for us

19 where the gathering point was, and put it on the overhead projector.

20 There you can see that on this plan -----

21 A. Yes, the gathering point is -- this is the gathering point, people

22 were directed towards Prijedor from all over Kozarac.

23 Q. Is that road you indicated where the gathering point was the new

24 Banja Luka/Prijedor highway?

25 A. Yes, the new highway Prijedor/Banja Luka.

Page 2688

1 Q. How did you know that that was the gathering point down there where

2 people were to meet?

3 A. It was because I saw it personally myself. I was at the sawmill and

4 that is my company. It is located below the field and it is next to

5 the highway.

6 Q. If you could indicate on this map then where the sawmill is? Can you

7 do that with the pointer?

8 A. The sawmill is here. This is the area where it is. It is -- there

9 is just one house between the field and the sawmill. It is -- this

10 house is next both to the field and to the sawmill.

11 Q. Did you go down to there, towards the sawmill?

12 A. Yes, I was at the sawmill, yes. I did go to visit my facility.

13 Q. So, at what stage did you go to the sawmill after you had been at

14 your brother's house?

15 A. No, I do not remember when I was at the sawmill, but I know that I

16 was there because I took a lot of cans because there was a storage and

17 everything was shelled, so the cans were all over the road and this is

18 what saved my life probably.

19 Q. I am asking you about the time you went to Kozarac and you went to

20 your brother's house and you told me that that was in the early

21 afternoon, is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You told me that people were moving towards a collection point and

24 you indicated that the collection point was ---

25 A. Yes.

Page 2689

1 Q. -- the new Banja Luka highway?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I asked you how you knew that that was the collection point and you

4 told us because you could see it as you went down to the sawmill which

5 was where you used to work?

6 A. Yes, but I was not at the sawmill that day when I was by the church.

7 I just do not remember what day it was because, as I said, Kozarac

8 could not have surrendered in one day. It took several days for it

9 to surrender. I do not remember how many days because I was wounded

10 and I do not remember.

11 Q. Let us go back a stage then. Perhaps you can think again and tell me

12 how you knew on the day you went to your brother's house that people

13 were moving to the collection point on the new Banja Luka highway?

14 A. It was just known because everybody was talking about it, people were

15 going up and down and it was just a pure chaos. People did not know

16 what to do. Everyone was hurrying here and there. It was just a pure

17 chaos. Some people were going back in the evening; some people were

18 going down. The buses could not take in all these people. I was

19 desperate but I knew that everybody was going towards Prijedor.

20 Q. But you were not walking around on the main streets, were you?

21 A. No, no. I did not use the main streets. Kozarac has many side

22 streets, back yards, through which one can go from one neighbour to

23 the other, and that is what I used mostly. Sometimes I did use the

24 high street. I did not care whether I would be killed or stay alive.

25 Q. But when you were moving around Kozarac on this day you went to your

Page 2690

1 brother's house, you were on your own, is that right?

2 A. Yes, I was on my own.

3 Q. Did you meet and talk with any other people in Kozarac as you were

4 moving around?

5 A. No, as I said, Kozarac was surrendering, thousands of people, I said,

6 but I did not talk to anyone. I said I was looking for my family, for

7 my brother who is no longer with us.

8 Q. Were you moving around the back yards and back gardens and side

9 streets because you did not want to be seen by anyone, you did not

10 want to be captured?

11 A. No, sometimes tanks, would pass by or amoured cars, I do not know

12 what they called them, amoured vehicles, would pass into Kozarac, and

13 I had to get away but I was not getting away from my people. I still

14 love my people to this day.

15 Q. Was there any reason why you did not go to the collection point down

16 there on the highway, why you chose not to?

17 A. I do not know. Something happened to me, something broke down and I

18 said: "I will not go".

19 Q. Were people moving in a convoy or in groups through those streets of

20 Kozarac down to the area, you said, at the Banja Luka highway?

21 A. Yes, people were going in every way possible, by cars, tractors,

22 trucks, on foot, in carts, in wheel carts, old people, children and

23 who knows how else.

24 Q. Did you see them on this day that you went to your brother's house

25 moving like that?

Page 2691

1 A. Yes, yes. People were surrendering for many days. I do not know how

2 many, but many, many, many days.

3 Q. Was there a collection point in front of the church?

4 A. No, I would not know that. I do not think so.

5 Q. When you were going through the back yards and gardens down to the

6 orchard after you had been to your brother's house, you said that you

7 could see the church clearly from where you were in the orchard?

8 A. Yes, yes. I could see the church clearly, all too clearly, because

9 there were leaves all over. The grass was a metre, a

10 metre-and-a-half, tall. The hedge around the ground, the branches of

11 plum trees, bending down to the ground. So that I could move as I

12 liked and nobody, nobody could really see me.

13 Q. Those things would also stop you seeing clearly if you have to look

14 through grass or trees, branches, hedges?

15 A. No, no. No, I was not moving then. I had found a spot and I had a

16 good view. Nobody was paying attention to me, but to the police.

17 Q. How long did you remain then in this position in the orchard?

18 A. Not long, the incident happened perhaps a few minutes after I

19 arrived. I did not have a watch so .....

20 Q. After the incident happened did you leave straightaway?

21 A. Yes, straightaway because there was very intensive fire and bullets

22 were whistling by.

23 Q. Bullets were whistling by where you were in the orchard?

24 A. Yes, yes, when this incredible fire started, then I beat a retreat.

25 It is not an orchard. It is plum trees. I call it an orchard because

Page 2692

1 Kozarac is all fruit trees all around.

2 Q. So the position that you have put yourself in where this orchard is,

3 is it at the end of the street and past the houses; is that right?

4 A. Behind the houses, no. In front of the house which overlooks the

5 churchyard and the church.

6 Q. There was no house between you and the orchard and the church?

7 A. No, there was a road.

8 Q. You had moved a considerable distance down from your brother's house,

9 had you?

10 A. Yes, as I was walking towards the church.

11 Q. About how many houses would you have passed to get from your

12 brother's house down to the orchard at the end of the street?

13 A. I should say six, I would not know the exact number, but I think six,

14 I am not sure, but six.

15 Q. Are you able to say how far from the house where your brother lived

16 down to the orchard where you were, how far that was?

17 A. Some 50, 60 metres. I have never measured it.

18 Q. Down there in front of the church there was no collection point that

19 would have obscured your view?

20 A. No, no, it was not the collection point but people were passing by.

21 Q. No gathering of Muslims there?

22 A. No, except the police.

23 Q. So the only people then in that spot by the church were police and

24 Serb troops or Serb paramilitaries, is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2693

1 Q. You told us earlier today about a group of civilians passing by the

2 street?

3 A. Yes, yes, but soldiers had rifles. The rifles were aiming at them.

4 They had to turn their head away and pass by the church, and they were

5 heading for Krkici and hurried down to the main road, to the highway

6 of Banja Luka/Prijedor.

7 Q. So how many Muslim policemen were there down by the church?

8 A. About six, I think it was about six.

9 Q. How many of the others were there?

10 A. No, nobody else was there but the police, Serb police, and Serb

11 soldiers.

12 Q. How many Serb police and Serb soldiers were there?

13 A. To my knowledge, when I saw them there were six policemen and Serb

14 soldiers, so I do not know, up to 15. I did not count them.

15 Q. So not a group of about 50 people?

16 A. What do you mean?

17 Q. By the church?

18 A. Yes, people were not moving in groups. They were in columns, family

19 after family, neighbour following the footsteps of a neighbour. They

20 almost all held hands. They were moving in a very wide front.

21 Q. Do you remember making a statement about these matters for the

22 Prosecution last year on 4th May 1995?

23 A. Yes, I remember.

24 Q. You were interviewed by a man with an interpreter called Aida, do you

25 remember that, Aida Jahic?

Page 2694

1 A. I think.

2 Q. Can you remember that after you were interviewed your statement taken

3 by them was read back to you in your own language?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you remember that you signed a certificate about that?

6 A. Yes, I remember.

7 Q. Would you like to see a copy of that statement in your own language

8 of Serbo-Croat?

9 A. Yes, if it is necessary.

10 Q. Yes. I would like to draw your attention to something in that

11 statement. I tender this before the witness, your Honour, as Defence

12 14, I think it is. (Defence Exhibit 14 was handed to the witness).

13 That is a copy of the statement in your own language there

14 that has been provided in that form. If you turn to the next page,

15 Mr. Seferovic, you will see that the first paragraph gives your

16 personal details about living in Kozarac; the second paragraph about

17 the contact you have had to give evidence before this Tribunal; the

18 third paragraph dealing with Sunday, 24th May 1992, can you see that

19 paragraph? Can you see that paragraph?

20 A. Yes. I think that the attack on Kozarac and surrounding villages

21 began on Sunday 24th, on 25th May 1992.

22 Q. Right. I do not need to go through that paragraph with you, but I

23 would just ask you to look at the paragraph after that which is the

24 fourth paragraph, on that same page. If you could turn back a page

25 and look at that long paragraph that starts there?

Page 2695

1 A. The second?

2 Q. The last paragraph where you wish to tell of a specific incident.

3 Just read it to yourself. Have you had a chance to read all that

4 paragraph on that page?

5 A. Could I read this? No, I have not read this paragraph until now.

6 Q. That was a paragraph that would have been translated back to you in

7 your own language on the day that you had been interviewed and given a

8 statement to the Prosecutors.

9 A. Yes, I did give -- I did make this statement.

10 Q. Did you say that your brother's house was about 100 metres from the

11 Serbian orthodox church in the centre of Kozarac?

12 A. I may have and maybe it is that far. I said I never measured the

13 distance; it could be.

14 Q. Did you say that you only moved some 30 metres from your brother's

15 house to a small orchard?

16 A. No, I said that the house, that is, was about 30 metres or more from

17 the orchard to the church. That is what I said.

18 Q. Did you say that you were walking closer to a collection point?

19 A. No, no, I did not.

20 Q. Because what I am suggesting to you is that you have made up this

21 story about seeing this incident in the afternoon in Kozarac in front

22 of the Serbian orthodox church?

23 A. No, I did not invent it. I saw it with my own eyes.

24 Q. When you say the Muslim policemen were in a line, were they standing

25 against the wall of the church?

Page 2696

1 A. Well, I think so, but one could see them all. They were to the side

2 of me so that I could see them more from the profile most, more or

3 less.

4 Q. If we look at photograph 222A -- if a copy could be put on the screen

5 by the witness -- you say that that photograph there shows the orchard

6 where you were hiding?

7 A. Yes, this is the small orchard. You see, I told you that Kozarac is

8 all made of fruit trees and I have always claimed that and I claim it

9 today.

10 Q. In this patch of land here we have a great number of trees, do we

11 not?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Not only that, there is a thick hedge growing all the way around the

14 ground, is there not?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. This is some six, seven houses down from where your brother's house

17 is, perhaps more?

18 A. Six, six houses away from my brother's towards the hospital, towards

19 the hospital, from this first house here.

20 Q. If you had moved only 30 metres from your brother's house, you would

21 still be up where the houses were, is that not right?

22 A. No, no, I did not say that. I said that I had moved 30 metres away

23 from my brother's house.

24 Q. If you had only gone that distance though, would it not be right that

25 you would be in the houses still in that street that leads from the

Page 2697

1 church up to the hospital, is that right?

2 A. I did not quite understand the question.

3 Q. If you had only moved 30 metres though from your brother's house, you

4 would still be amongst those houses in the street?

5 A. No, but I was not walking down the street and I did not say I had got

6 30 metres away because there is more than that. There are six houses

7 between my brother's house and this front house, and I was standing

8 there in front of that house, and those naturally fruit trees, fruit

9 trees and hedges; and at that time there was dense foliage and here we

10 see it all naked.

11 Q. Yes, and that is why I suggest to you that you would not have had a

12 clear view in relation to any events occurring within the grounds of

13 the churchyard?

14 A. Yes, but I had chosen a lovely viewpoint. I was some six or seven

15 metres in front of the house.

16 Q. So there were soldiers who had told Muslims ---

17 A. Where?

18 Q. -- civilians not to watch what was happening and you were brave

19 enough to do that?

20 A. No, no, they were not talking, they were simply brandishing their

21 rifles and turning them upwards, indicating to move towards Krkici.

22 Q. So how many people were walking down that road between the churchyard

23 and the orchard?

24 A. Some 40 to 60 people. I do not know. I did not count. I had no

25 time to count them. I paid no attention to people who were passing

Page 2698

1 by. My attention was riveted on what was happening before the

2 church.

3 Q. You were only down there for a few minutes, is that right?

4 A. No, I did not say I was several minutes there. I had come a few

5 minutes before the murder of Kozarac policemen.

6 Q. After you say you saw the murder, you say that you left quickly?

7 A. After the murder this incredible, terrible fire began. I do not know

8 from where and against whom, but the bullets were whistling by so I

9 retreated behind the house and headed for the Besici hill in Kozarac.

10 Q. So that is right when I put it to you that you said you were down

11 there for only a few minutes?

12 A. No. I said I had come several minutes before the incident. I do not

13 know how long I stayed there, I paid no attention, but it seemed to me

14 I was there for an infinite period of time when I saw all the

15 provocations, slaughter, fire and then, I do not know, I do not know

16 what I did. I simply turned my back on it. I was desperate and I

17 left.

18 Q. Any slaughter that you say would have taken place like that, would

19 have involved a lot of blood pouring out, is that right? You say both

20 men were cut across the throat?

21 A. Yes. Yes, it was towards the neck. Whether they were slaughtered, I

22 do not know, but, yes, blood was gushing forth.

23 Q. Well, that is what you said to us happened. You said that Osman had

24 his throat cut and then was stabbed below several times.

25 A. Yes. Yes, I did not count how many times ----

Page 2699

1 Q. And if ----

2 A. --- but I saw it.

3 Q. If Edin had the same thing happen to him, as you said, his throat

4 was cut as well?

5 A. The same thing happened to Edin. I saw a thrust higher up and then

6 the complete confusion began and this fire started, and I said to

7 myself "I am desperate". I stood for a little while longer and then I

8 turned and left.

9 Q. So was Edin's throat cut as well?

10 A. I saw a blow upwards. Of course he was, his throat was cut as well.

11 Q. Did you see blood spill from both of these attacks?

12 A. Yes, I saw the blood. Naturally one could see blood. When the

13 firing started I stood there for a while and then I left. I had no

14 time to continue watching any more; not that I did not have time; I

15 could not continue watching any further.

16 Q. So when you say Mr. Tadic did this amongst the group of Serb

17 policemen to the Muslim policemen, did he grab Osman from behind or in

18 front?

19 A. Yes, Osman and Edin stood next to each other. I think that Osman

20 stood behind Edin, I think, and he grabbed him towards himself, he

21 pulled him towards himself, and then the blow came and the next blows.

22 Q. So the blow was at the front of Osman's body into the neck?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And presumably blood would have spurted forwards?

25 A. Yes, naturally.

Page 2700

1 Q. So we would expect anyone to be covered in blood if they had done

2 that?

3 A. I think so, because this is the neck and this is where the blood

4 vessels are. I think that a lot of blood, a lot of blood burst out.

5 Q. You say that originally Osman was behind Besic?

6 A. I think so. Edin was most visible because he was a very large man.

7 Q. When Esek was, you say, killed by Mr. Tadic, stabbed by him, was he

8 grabbed from the front?

9 A. Edin, not Esek. Yes, yes, the blow also came, was directed upwards

10 and I think he did the same to Edin. There was a tremendous shooting

11 when this happened and I mentioned a hundred times and I will say a

12 hundred times I was shocked. I stood there for a few seconds, I do

13 not know how long, and then I left.

14 Q. How soon after the group of civilians had passed down the road did

15 this take place?

16 A. This all lasted for a few minutes. The civilians could still be seen

17 on the road as they were heading towards Krkici.

18 Q. This was at a time when many people, thousands of people, were moving

19 around Kozarac going to the collection point?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Again so it is clear, what I suggest to you is that you have made

22 this up; you did not see this at all?

23 A. No, I did not make this up. I saw this with my own eyes and this is

24 what I claim.

25 MR. KAY: Thank you. No further questions, your Honour.

Page 2701


2 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.

3 Re-examined by Mr. Tieger.

4 Q. Mr. Seferovic, let me talk to you briefly about that statement that

5 Mr. Kay asked you about. First of all, when you talked with the

6 Tribunal Investigator did he have any photographs of the area where

7 your brother's house was or where the church was?

8 A. No, he did not have any photographs.

9 Q. Did he have any map of the area ----

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did he have any photographs of the area?

12 A. No, he did not have a map. He only had this picture that is on the

13 monitor.

14 Q. The person who came to see you in 1995?

15 A. No, he did not have anything.

16 Q. Then let me go through this very quickly using the photographs we now

17 have and the map we now have. If we could put 220 back on the screen.

18 Can you point out again where the collection point was at the

19 Prijedor/Banja Luka highway for the court?

20 A. Towards Prijedor, all the people were coming to this point here, from

21 all over and then they were sent to Prijedor.

22 Q. Can you point out again where your brother's house was?

23 A. (Indicated).

24 Q. And the church is in between?

25 A. It was closer to the church than to the hospital.

Page 2702

1 Q. So the church is in between your brother's house and where the

2 collection point was, is that right?

3 A. No, I said that my brother's house is between the church and the

4 hospital.

5 Q. That is correct, but as you move from your brother's house toward the

6 church, that also takes you closer to the collection point, does it

7 not?

8 A. No, I was getting closer to the house that is right in front of the

9 church.

10 Q. OK. Just taking it step by step, sir, if we were just to go down the

11 map and if we were looking at a map as we are now, we would see that

12 your brother's house is on the street between the hospital and the

13 church, is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You move to a point closer to the church?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. OK. Then if one were to continue, for example, down that path past

18 the church ----

19 A. Yes, I would come to the road, old road between Prijedor and Banja

20 Luka, and this road served as the other -- it was used for the same

21 purposes as other roads in Kozarac.

22 Q. OK. Just down this road is where the collection point was at the

23 junction?

24 A. At the intersection which was a turning by the field and the sawmill

25 and led to the main street, main road between Prijedor and Banja Luka.

Page 2703

1 Q. Of course the church is closer to that point than your brother's

2 house is?

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, I do not mean to cut you off, but it is

4 a little past 5.30 and we do need to adjourn today promptly. How much

5 longer do you have with this witness? It is weekend and I know you

6 would like to send him home.

7 MR. TIEGER: I really would, your Honour, and I will try to cover it

8 quickly. I do not know what the Court's schedule is. I presume that

9 you would give me that leeway unless there was something pressing. If

10 it is possible to do so I would like to continue.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, 10 minutes.

12 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.

13 Sir, the question was, the church is closer to the collection

14 point than your brother's house is, right?

15 A. No, the church is closer to my brother's house.

16 Q. OK, thank you, sir. What it says in your statement is from your

17 brother's house: "... I walked closer to the collection point." If

18 you can look at the words in that statement.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will assume that that is what the statement says.

20 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is OK, sir, you do not have to look at it.

22 MR. TIEGER: Sir, did you also tell the Tribunal Investigator that you

23 sought safety and cover in a small orchard?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you also tell him from that position in the orchard you had an

Page 2704

1 unobstructed view of the activity going on in front of the Serb

2 church?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. That is the view which is available from the position you showed us

5 in the photograph, is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. From that position you saw approximately 15 Serbian paramilitary

8 soldiers, approximately six Muslim policemen and you also saw

9 civilians passing by, is that right?

10 A. Yes, that is right.

11 Q. OK. You did not have a photograph so that you could show the

12 Tribunal representative exactly where the policemen were or exactly

13 where the Serbian paramilitary soldiers were, did you?

14 A. No. No, I did not have.

15 Q. But you showed us on the map today, is that right?

16 A. Yes. Yes, and I was very confident about it.

17 Q. You were also able, using the photographs, to explain exactly where

18 the civilians were passing by on the road?

19 A. Yes, I could.

20 Q. All right. What you told the Tribunal representative, is it not, is

21 that you saw about 50 people in total: six, approximately six Muslim

22 policemen, approximately 15 Serbian paramilitary soldiers and the rest

23 Muslim civilians, is that correct? That is what you told them and

24 that is what is in the statement?

25 A. Muslim civilians were passing by the church at the time when Muslim

Page 2705

1 policemen stood in the yard of the church. This is what I said and I

2 am firm about it.

3 Q. That is what you told him and it is reflected in this statement that

4 you observed about 50 people total, including six Muslim policemen and

5 so on. Then you also explained in the statement ----

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is that correct, sir? Did you see about 50 people

7 total, civilians, the police officers and Serbians dressed in

8 paramilitary?

9 A. I said that I did not count people that were passing by. I said I saw

10 the people. It is impossible to count up the people in the war.

11 MR. TIEGER: OK. Then you described to the Tribunal representative how

12 Dule Tadic killed the two policemen just as you described it here in

13 court and that is reflected in the statement, is it not?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. TIEGER: That is all I have, your Honour.


17 MR. KAY: Your Honour, no further questions of the witness.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You have no further questions?

19 MR. KAY: No.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Any objection to Mr. Seferovic being

21 permanently excused?

22 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

23 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, your Honour, before he is excused there are two

24 quick matters. I understand that 221 is marked, is in evidence, is

25 that right? That was the document there was a slight debate about

Page 2706

1 whether or not to mark and I want to make sure it was in as marked.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Bos, is it in evidence? Yes.

3 MR. TIEGER: As marked. Good. I do not believe at any point -- I believe

4 the record should reflect the witness's identification of the accused

5 which we ----

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Did I not say that?


8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The record should reflect that Mr. Seferovic

9 identified the accused.

10 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Defence Exhibit 14 was marked for identification

12 purposes and I gather you do not wish to offer that?

13 MR. KAY: I did not tender it.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Are there any additional matters now?

15 Are all of exhibits marked, Mr. Bos, in evidence except for Defence

16 14? OK, very good. Mr. Seferovic, you are permanently excused. You

17 are free to leave. Thank you for coming. You may leave now.

18 Let me remind Counsel that we will begin this matter on

19 Tuesday at 11.30 a.m. because we have two initial appearances that we

20 have to handle before we continue this trial. So the Court will

21 adjourn until 11.30 on Tuesday.

22 (The court adjourned until Tuesday, 18th June 1996)