1 THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL CASE NO. IT-94-1-T

2 FOR THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA

3 IN THE TRIAL CHAMBER

4 Tuesday, 18th June 1996

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Good morning, gentlemen. Mr. Wladimiroff, you are

6 standing

7 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, your Honour.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you have good news for us early this morning?

9 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I hope so. Before the Prosecution calls its next

10 witness, I want to raise a matter that is related to witnesses to

11 come. That concerns a notice that has been given to us by the

12 Prosecution that the Prosecution will use a photospread for

13 identification purposes to witnesses. This photospread consists of 13

14 black and white photographs among which is a photograph of Mr. Tadic.

15 After inspecting the material that has been shown to the

16 witnesses, we have been evaluating the sense or nonsense of this test.

17 I want to make some comments on that before we go to the next

18 witness, if the court pleases.

19 The test, your Honours, is not original evidence ----

20 JUDGE STEPHEN: I am sorry. To understand it, I think I need to

21 understand better what it is that is proposed by the Prosecution.

22 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes. To start with, I think I should say that the test

23 is not original evidence. It merely is a demonstration of a theory

24 that a party may have as to a particular issue in the case.

25 Therefore, any tests that are sought to be used to demonstrate a

1 theory must be based upon legitimate procedures to ensure their

2 validity. This has not been achieved by the identification procedures

3 used in this case.

4 So we object to any testimony given by witnesses on the basis

5 of this photospread if the accused was already known to the witness

6 before the alleged crime or if the witness took part in a previous

7 identification test.

8 It is a basic rule of identification procedure that

9 involvement in a crime cannot be proved by means of a line-up or a

10 show-up when the suspect is already known to the witness for other

11 reasons than involvement in a crime. Identification on the basis of a

12 photospread by a witness who already knew the suspect has no probative

13 value at all. This is generally accepted in forensic psychology and

14 in legal practice.

15 If the Prosecution intends to examine a witness on the basis

16 of the photospread which, as I already said, is composed by 13

17 photographs in black and white, among which is a photo of Dusko Tadic,

18 it will have to demonstrate that the witness did not know the accused

19 before the alleged crime and that the witnesses were not shown

20 photographs of the accused at a previous occasion.

21 We also object to any testimony given by witnesses on the

22 basis of the Prosecution's photospread if it does not provide for an

23 unbiased identification test.

24 It needs no explanation that a photospread should not contain

25 such suggestive details or biasing elements that it can be used to

1 identify the accused even by those who do not know his face. To test

2 this the spread should be shown to a number of persons who are

3 completely naive with respect to the identity of the accused. This

4 test is known as the Doob and Kirshenbaum test.

5 This test has been performed on behalf of the prosecution with

6 a group of Dutch persons. The scientific guessing level, which is the

7 number of persons that can be expected to select a picture of Mr.

8 Tadic, was calculated to be three persons out of this group. The

9 test, however, showed that more persons, in fact five persons, chose

10 the photo of Mr. Tadic.

11 If one likes mathematics, such a difference between the

12 expected and observed guessing level is not statistically significant,

13 but mathematics is not the right criterion here. The value of the Doob

14 and Kirshenbaum test is that any deviation of the calculated guessing

15 level should lead to a rejection of the test.

16 Usually, subjects in a Doob and Kirshenbaum test are selected

17 from the same ethic group as the witness. A specific reason is that

18 membership of ethnic groups may be obvious to those who grew up in the

19 former Yugoslavia.

20 Whereas the Doob and Kirshenbaum test was performed with a

21 group of Dutch persons, this ethnic aspect may not have played a

22 significant role. Nevertheless, more persons than the calculated

23 guessing level chose the photo of Mr. Tadic.

24 If the photospread is composed of photographs of males of

25 different ethnic groups of the former Yugoslavia, the deviation of the

1 calculated guessing level outcome of the test will even be worse if it

2 will be performed with persons from the former Yugoslavia who have not

3 seen pictures of Mr. Tadic before.

4 We have no knowledge of a Doob and Kirshenbaum test being

5 performed with persons from the former Yugoslavia. The validity of an

6 identification on the basis of the photospread is, as far as we know,

7 not properly tested.

8 Whereas "the Dutch test" has shown that the accused has been

9 chosen above the guessing level, we reject the value of any

10 identification on the basis of the Prosecution photospread.

11 The presentation of a photospread also containing photographs

12 of Bosnian Muslims or Croats (or even worse non-Yugoslavs) to non-Serb

13 witnesses further invalidates the choice frequency.

14 In our opinion, a photospread may only have probative value in

15 this case if it only shows photographs of Serbs of an appearance

16 generally similar to the accused.

17 If the Prosecution intends to examine a witness on the basis

18 of the photospread, we take the position that it will have to

19 demonstrate that the spread shown to the witness was composed by

20 photographs of Serbs only.

21 At all events, we should realise that the logic of an identity

22 test is that a recognition of a suspect by a witness should only have

23 one and exclusive explanation, that is, the witness has seen the

24 suspect at the scene of the crime.

25 If it cannot be excluded that there may have been another

1 occasion on which the witness has seen the suspect, a positive

2 identification cannot logically lead to the conclusion that the

3 witness saw the suspect at the scene of the crime.

4 When there has been a possibility that the witness saw a

5 picture of the suspect, but he says he did not see it, or does not

6 remember seeing it, we must assume that his recognition might have

7 been guided by a memory of which he is not aware.

8 It is a fact of common knowledge that requires no proof that

9 pictures of Mr. Tadic have been shown on television and published in

10 newspapers all over the world since February 1994.

11 If a witness is for this reason guided by his memory, a

12 successful identification only means that the witness knows the

13 appearance of Mr. Tadic.

14 In that case, there is no confusion as to whom he is

15 referring in his testimony, but this does not allow the further

16 conclusion that he saw him at the scene of the crime.

17 Summarising, your Honours, it may be said that identification

18 on the basis of the Prosecution's photospread has no probative value

19 if the accused was already known to the witness before the alleged

20 crime or if the witness took part in the previous identification test,

21 or if it does not provide for an unbiased identification test.

22 In our opinion, questioning the witness on the basis of the

23 Prosecutor's photospread will not provide evidence with probative

24 value. It will only serve a prejudicial purpose and provide apparent

25 legitimacy to a flawed procedure.

1 As long as the Prosecution has not satisfied the court of the

2 opposite, we object to any questioning of the witnesses on the basis

3 of the Prosecution's photospread.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We have discussed generally this method of

5 identification and the plans of the Prosecutor at various pretrial

6 conferences. The Judges actually have left it to the parties to get

7 together and determine just how they were going to handle this matter.

8 I gather, at least you got together in that you have spoken to each

9 other about how this would be handled, but there appears to be a

10 significant difference as to the admissibility of such evidence.

11 I think now would be a good time to hear from the Prosecutor,

12 if we may, to hear just what your plans are, once again to tell us how

13 you would propose this because, I must admit, there were some

14 questions that we had during our pretrial conferences about how this

15 would be conducted. What do you plan to do, without obviously

16 offering the evidence, but just tell us the procedures?

17 JUDGE STEPHEN: You might remember that I was not present at those very

18 early pretrial conferences. I did not form part of the Chamber and

19 did not hear what you proposed with this photospread which I have not

20 heard of before.

21 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, perhaps in dealing with the question that has

22 been raised by your Honours, I would like to indicate that the issue

23 is not immediate in the sense that it is going to happen with the next

24 witness. I think there has been to that extent some misunderstanding,

25 but I will touch on that.

1 The next witness is clearly a recognition witness, but during

2 the investigative process he was shown a book of photographs purely

3 for investigative purposes. I made that book available to the Defence

4 purely for them, for their own purposes, for them to examine it, but I

5 perhaps did not make clear that I would not be asking this witness

6 about that photo book in the course of his evidence in these

7 proceedings, but that is indeed our position. We will not be asking

8 recognition witnesses, witnesses who are clearly recognition

9 witnesses, to give evidence of any photo books, photospreads that were

10 shown to them in the investigative phase.

11 In saying that, we are not admitting anything in respect of

12 the photospread at all in terms of its probative value or

13 admissibility. It is just that it is not our intention to do that. I

14 was not really anticipating submissions on this this morning so I have

15 not prepared anything in particular about it. I will answer some of

16 the issues that were raised by Mr. Wladimiroff, but I might ask my

17 colleague, Mr. Tieger, to pick up on anything that I leave out in the

18 submission because he has been looking after this particular question

19 for us on behalf of our team.

20 Your Honours, we would submit, and we will be suggesting, that

21 our photospread, the one that we have developed, has been developed

22 properly. It is the best that can be achievable in the circumstances,

23 and with pure ID witnesses it is entirely appropriate, it is

24 admissible and, we say, highly probative.

25 There is, however, an area where I would imagine we are likely

1 to be in most dispute.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Let me interrupt you because this is a problem we

3 have had in the past, and that is I do not know that I fully

4 understood what you intend to do. I mean, you have to take me through

5 the procedure. "Photospread" to me means a spread of photos. So you

6 are going to do what? You have shown a spread of photos to the

7 witness before and they have X number of photos and then, I gather,

8 the Defence knew what photos were included in this spread. That is

9 what I am lacking. You will just have to begin from the very

10 beginning for me.

11 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. Your Honours, perhaps the use of the word

12 "photospread" by me is misleading. It is a booklet containing 13

13 photographs and these photographs have been specifically selected at

14 our request by people who we consider to have expertise in the field.

15 The process is that the book of photographs is presented to

16 the particular witness and the witness then goes through examining

17 each photograph and then either identifies one or not. In most

18 instances, this will be shown purely to people who we classify as

19 identification witnesses. These are people who do not know the

20 accused, but see a person at a particular site or scene doing a

21 particular act; this is shown to those persons and that person will be

22 asked out of court to see whether or not they can select the

23 photograph.

24 It may happen in some instances -- this has already been done

25 now, but in many instances it will not -- in many instances this will

1 happen when the witnesses are brought here to The Hague in order to

2 give their evidence, so it will happen before they come into court.

3 They will then give their evidence in court as to what they selected

4 in the photo book and that will then be tendered as evidence in the

5 proceedings. So it will be an out of court identification but it may

6 happen at that later stage. In some instances that has already been

7 done, as I have said.

8 In most cases, however, the witnesses are recognition

9 witnesses and the grey area, if I might say, is somebody who says,

10 "Yes, I know the accused in the sense that I have seen him on one or

11 two occasions" or whatever, but that is about the limit of the

12 knowledge of the person or the witness. In those cases, it was our

13 intention to show the photospread and to treat them as if they were an

14 identification witness, because the recognition is of such poor value

15 and this may be an area where it will be disputed. It will be on the

16 side where there is so little evidence of recognition that we would

17 say without more that person needs to be shown an ID.

18 We have obtained expert advice on this process and the same

19 expert has been used by both the Prosecution and the Defence. We do

20 not expect necessarily any ----

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is a first! The same witness, is that Dr.

22 ---

23 MR. NIEMANN: Wagenaar.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Wagenaar, yes.

25 MR. NIEMANN: At this stage we had not anticipated that there would be

1 any difference in the advice that we had received, and we assume that

2 is the same, it is coming to both sides.

3 But, as I say, it is not this witness that is coming next. I

4 merely gave it to the Defence that has prompted them to have this

5 reaction which I can understand, but it is not going to be necessary

6 for the next witness in any event.

7 But perhaps I might ask Mr. Tieger if he would like to add

8 anything to that because, as I say, he is the one who has been dealing

9 directly with Dr. Wagenaar and this particular issue.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: May I ask about the next witness though? You say

11 with respect to this witness you did show him the photo book?

12 MR. NIEMANN: In some cases -----

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Pardon?

14 MR. NIEMANN: In some cases it has happened, your Honours.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: This next witness, you did show him?

16 MR. NIEMANN: As an investigative procedure.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: But he is a recognition witness and you would, I

18 gather, attempt to lay the appropriate foundation for that?

19 MR. NIEMANN: Yes.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: His prior knowledge, how often he saw him, where he

21 saw him, under what circumstances, that kind of thing?

22 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It would be your position if he could identify him

24 without ever having seen the photo.

25 MR. NIEMANN: That is right.

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may want to have some questions, I suppose, then

2 of the witness on that point?

3 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Well ----

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I am trying to deal with what we have right here,

5 and we do need to get to the larger problem.

6 MR. WLADIMIROFF: What we have tried to do, your Honour, is to trigger the

7 issue, because we experienced the court accepting a dock

8 identification ---

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes.

10 MR. WLADIMIROFF: -- and we thought we should raise the matter as early as

11 possible.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is fine.

13 MR. WLADIMIROFF: As we see it, the best way we should deal with it is,

14 perhaps, a trial-within-a-trial, that is, to hear the expert witness

15 on that issue and that might be the expert we both feel is very

16 competent in this matter, Professor Wagenaar.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is possibly a good idea before we get to

18 ------

19 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: When will you use this then, not this next witness

21 but the witness after?

22 MR. NIEMANN: Not the witness after, your Honour, but there is a witness

23 coming up which we would call a purely identification witness.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: This is the next witness?

25 MR. NIEMANN: No, no.

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I am sorry. When do you expect to have need of this

2 photospread ID, identification?

3 MR. NIEMANN: About nine witnesses away, your Honour, I think, we expect.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is good. We can put off, of course, ruling on

5 it. I realise I cut you off before you fully explained your

6 procedure, but two things: With respect to the next witness, it

7 appears that the photospread has been shown to the witness but the

8 witness, I gather from what Mr. Niemann says, knew the witness before.

9 So you have been objecting to the dock identification and it has been

10 overruled because there has been a proper foundation. With respect to

11 this next witness, I do not know whether you want to handle it as an

12 objection after we hear the testimony on this photospread or whether

13 you want to ---

14 MR. WLADIMIROFF: As a matter of fact, I understand ------

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: -- or whether you want to interrupt, perhaps, before

16 he makes the dock identification and ask the witness questions about

17 this photospread, that is what I am suggesting, before he even does

18 the identification.

19 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Right. That is, I think, the best way.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then we can rule on it and see how much this

21 photospread -----

22 MR. WLADIMIROFF: That is right.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. So before there is a dock ID, or you can talk

24 about it and tell us how you want to handle it.

25 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes. As I understand it, the Prosecution is not going

1 to use the booklet. They are not going to question the witness on

2 that matter; is that not right?

3 MR. NIEMANN: That is correct.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: But you know now that possibly that they will -----

5 MR. WLADIMIROFF: So now we know, we will ask the witness and then, I

6 think, we intervene at the proper moment to do that.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, then we will do that before we even allow the

8 witness to attempt to give a dock identification, we will allow you

9 to just raise this issue and then we can rule on it. You are

10 suggesting that, perhaps, we hear from Dr. Wagenaar before we even

11 hear these witnesses that are nine witnesses away or so -- did you say

12 nine?

13 MR. NIEMANN: Yes.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What do you think about that, Mr. Niemann?

15 MR. NIEMANN: It was not our intention to call him as part of our case

16 in-chief, and it would be an unusual move for the Defence to call him

17 in a trial unless we can have proceedings somewhat similar to a voir

18 dire maybe the approach.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: But if we had a voir dire, we would not hear from a

20 witness. If Dr. Wagenaar is going to be an expert witness for the

21 Defence, of course, he would then be allowed to sit with the Defence

22 during your attempted offer of the photospread and would be here with

23 counsel with the Defence and advise them as to cross-examination.

24 That is for sure.

25 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps I will ask Mr. Tieger to deal with that issue? With

1 Dr. Wagenaar I am not sure what the position would be.

2 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, it seems to me there is no question that if this

3 issue is to be raised, it will not be effectively dealt with during

4 the course of a witness's testimony. It has nothing to do, as I

5 understand it, with the witness himself, and it will clearly represent

6 a disruption in the proceeding in so far as the presentation of that

7 particular witness's evidence is concerned.

8 So if the court's question is whether or not we need some form

9 of hearing prior to any testimony from a witness whose testimony

10 implicates the use of the photo book for identification purposes, I

11 think the answer is probably, yes, otherwise we will have a witness

12 sitting in the dock while we litigate issues about which he has no

13 particular knowledge or expertise.

14 To clarify, if it helps, the development of this issue I might

15 adds the following: this was a matter raised with the Defence many,

16 many months ago, at which time we enquired whether or not the Defence

17 expected to object to the procedure that the Prosecution proposed. We

18 were told at that time that the presentation, evaluation and

19 acceptance of this photo book by Dr. Wagenaar, about whom we were both

20 aware, would resolve that issue. In so far as the photo book itself

21 is concerned, we have not heard objections from the Defence prior to

22 this day. Dr. Wagenaar, in fact, was presented with a book, conducted

23 a test, and advised that its use was appropriate. That, in so far as

24 the Prosecution is concerned, was the status of the photo book to this

25 day.

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If you have heard the objection of the Defence for

2 the first time, do you need some time to prepare a full oral response

3 and you may have that time, since we do not need to resolve this issue

4 until nine witnesses, which may be another week, 30 some hours. Do

5 you want some time to respond to it, because I think I understood Mr.

6 Wladimiroff's presentation. Just in the interest of time -- you say

7 that we need a hearing prior and that is an opportunity for an

8 argument from counsel; is that correct?

9 MR. TIEGER: In terms of need, I think the issues seem clear enough to me.

10 I do not think so, but I know it is being raised by the Defence and

11 it seems to me inappropriate to do so with the witness sitting in the

12 dock.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The Judges will talk about it today and advise you

14 tomorrow how we wish to proceed, perhaps even when we will listen to

15 counsel regarding this whole process. At least I think we have a

16 better understanding of what it is you intend to do, and then at that

17 time you can address the objections of Mr. Wladimiroff as well as his

18 suggestion that we hear from Dr. Wagenaar prior to it.

19 It just seems to me that is a matter of law and a matter at

20 some point he will come and testify and we will listen to what he has

21 to say. So, why do we not then just proceed with the next witness and

22 handle that issue which we have? Then we will have an opportunity to

23 talk among ourselves to see how we want to handle it.

24 JUDGE STEPHEN: Mr. Wladimiroff, just to better understand your objection:

25 in a case of somebody who knows the accused very well, has grown up

1 with him, I do not understand -- I can appreciate that being shown a

2 photograph adds nothing whatever. On the other hand, it does no harm,

3 does it, for somebody who knows the accused intimately be shown a

4 photograph, I do not why they bother to show him a photograph, but if

5 they do and he gives evidence of it, it is of no significance one way

6 or the other as far as identification is concerned;, whereas you

7 rather put it that it vitiates. Why is that?

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: As a matter of fact, I do agree that indeed it does not

9 add anything. It has no probative value at all.

10 JUDGE STEPHEN: Yes.

11 MR. WLADIMIROFF: But it just sets the atmosphere. We rather prefer to

12 avoid that.

13 JUDGE STEPHEN: I appreciate that. Thank you.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, gentlemen, for raising that point and

15 giving us some little time to resolve that issue. Mr. Niemann, are you

16 ready to call your next witness.

17 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you?

19 MR. NIEMANN: I call Ferid Mujcic.

20 FERID MUJCIC, called.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Mujcic, would you please take that oath that is

22 before you?

23 THE WITNESS: [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

24 truth,

25 the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

1 (The witness was sworn)

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you sir, you may be seated.

3 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

4 Q. Mr. Mujcic, could you tell the Tribunal where you were born?

5 A. I was born on 20th April in the village of Brdjani near Kozarac.

6 Q. Approximately how far is Brdjani from Kozarac?

7 A. My house is about one kilometre away from Kozarac.

8 Q. Where did you attend your primary and secondary school?

9 A. I attended the primary school in Kozarac.

10 Q. Apart from a period of time when you worked at a sawmill in Germany,

11 have you lived and worked all your life in the Kozarac area?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Did you, in fact, own land in Kozarac which you worked?

14 A. I do not understand the question. Excuse me.

15 Q. Did you own a property in Kozarac, a small farming type property that

16 you worked?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Are you by nationality Muslim?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you do military service?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When did you do your military service?

23 A. On 28th March 1973 I went to do my military service.

24 Q. Where did you do this, where did you do your military service?

25 A. I went to Vipava and then to Ljubljana after a certain period of

1 time.

2 Q. In what republics are those two places?

3 A. Republic of Slovenia.

4 Q. In the beginning of 1992 were you either in the JNA or the

5 Territorial Defence?

6 A. Territorial Defence.

7 Q. What was your role in the Territorial Defence?

8 A. Well, how shall I explain? It is part of the JNA, but the

9 Territorial Defence, we did not have any particular role.

10 Q. I was asking more what you did, what your connection to the

11 Territorial Defence was in the beginning of 1992?

12 A. For a while we kept guard at the mountaineers' hostel.

13 Q. I might come back to that in a moment. Do you know the accused in

14 this case, Dule Tadic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. For how long have you known him?

17 A. I have known him almost all my life, because we lived in the same

18 place. He lived in the centre of the town and I was one kilometre

19 away from the town.

20 Q. Were there any particular circumstances from time to time when you

21 would meet Dule Tadic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What were those circumstances?

24 A. In passing, sometimes in a pub, sometimes in this mountaineers'

25 hostel. That is how we met, but we did not have any particular ties.

1 Q. During the course of your life when you lived in Kozarac, would you

2 see him from time to time?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Are you able to tell us approximately whether you saw him rarely,

5 just occasionally or did you see him often?

6 A. Well, from time to time I saw him -- I mean, we did not socialise --

7 in passing, in a coffee bar, but as I lived in that place sometimes I

8 met him fairly frequently, sometimes it would be only from time to

9 time. I did not pay much attention to that.

10 Q. I think you mentioned earlier that he lived in the middle of the

11 town. Are you able to describe in more detail where he lived?

12 A. Yes. He lived not far from the school building across the street

13 from a building where teachers or medical people lived.

14 Q. Do you know what his premises were used for apart from residential

15 purposes?

16 A. He had a cafe bar.

17 Q. So far as you are aware, did he and his family live there all the

18 time?

19 A. To my knowledge, yes.

20 Q. Do you know what Dule Tadic did before the war?

21 A. All I know is that he had this cafe bar and that he was active in

22 karate; what else he did, I do not know.

23 Q. Do you know the name of his father?

24 A. Ostoja.

25 Q. Did you know his wife?

1 A. Would you repeat the question, please?

2 Q. Did you know -----

3 A. Dule's wife?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. I knew Dule's wife.

6 Q. Can you remember what her first name was?

7 A. Mira, I think.

8 Q. Do you know whether or not they had any children?

9 A. I know they had children, but how many I would not know.

10 Q. Are you able to say whether you knew any of the friends or associates

11 of Dule Tadic?

12 A. Yes, Emir Karabasic, I mean, from what I could see before, and then

13 of late towards the end, I did not much heed to who he was socialising

14 with.

15 Q. Do you know who his neighbours were in Kozarac?

16 A. I knew Salih Perusa. He lived below Dule's house because I visited

17 that man at his house fairly often even on business, and that was

18 Dule's neighbour.

19 Q. Did you know whether or not Dule Tadic had any brothers or sisters?

20 A. I knew he had two brothers.

21 Q. Did you know their names?

22 A. I knew it, Ljubo and Mladen. That is what they called them in

23 Kozarac.

24 Q. Do you know the family name of his wife?

25 A. Her maiden -- as a girl, she lived in Vidovici and her father was

1 Baja. That is what we used to call him.

2 Q. When you saw Dule Tadic and knew him in the town of Kozarac prior to

3 the war, was he a man that was clean shaven or did he have a beard?

4 A. Well, sometimes he had a beard, sometimes he did not.

5 Q. Do you know whether Dule Tadic was in any way involved in politics in

6 the period leading up to the commencement of the war in 1992?

7 A. As far as I could learn from others, when it came to elections that

8 there was voting at his house; about other things, I do not know.

9 Q. Do you believe that Dule Tadic knew you?

10 A. I believe he did.

11 Q. Did you ever speak from time to time when you met prior to the war?

12 A. We would say "hello" to each other in passing by, ask after one

13 another's health -- nothing special.

14 Q. Did you know or know of anyone in the Kozarac area or region who

15 looked like Dule Tadic or who could be confused or mistaken for Dule

16 Tadic?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you recall when the war started in Kozarac?

19 A. 24th, as far as I can remember.

20 Q. When you say 24th, do you mean 24th May?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Where were you on that particular day when the attack on Kozarac

23 commenced?

24 A. I could not remember where I was exactly that day, but I know I was

25 not at home; that I do remember.

1 Q. When the shelling started, what did you do?

2 A. We reported to -- we were told by the TO to report in case of

3 something and that is what we did, that is what I did.

4 Q. Where did you report?

5 A. The mountaineers' hostel on Debeli Brijeg.

6 Q. Is this behind the town of Kozarac?

7 A. It is above Vidovici up in the hills above the village.

8 Q. Did you have a uniform on or did you put on a uniform?

9 A. Yes, I had a uniform and I put it on.

10 Q. Was this an old JNA uniform that you put on?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where had you got this uniform from?

13 A. We were issued them by the Local Commune in Kozarac several years

14 before that, I do not know how many. Before the incident happened we

15 were issued them by TO, by the Reserves.

16 Q. Did you have a weapon?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. What sort of weapon did you have?

19 A. I had an M48 rifle of the Yugoslav Army.

20 Q. Where did you get that from?

21 A. From the Territorial Defence.

22 Q. When did you get that?

23 A. I got it about one year before the war broke out.

24 Q. Who did you report to on that day?

25 A. I do not understand the question. What do you mean, what day?

1 Q. On the day of the attack you said you reported at a place beyond

2 Vidovici; I am asking, who did you report to?

3 A. I was to report to Vasif Kulasic, but as he was not there I found a

4 couple of other friends who were also to report there.

5 Q. Who is Vasa Kulasic?

6 A. Vasif Kulasic, not Vasa. He was a Captain, a TO Captain.

7 Q. What about the other people in the town, so far as you knew? What

8 did they do at the commencement of the -----

9 A. There was major panic and everybody moved towards the woods, women,

10 children, and we also escaped there and they were with us in the

11 woods, some of them fled in an unknown direction running for their

12 lives from shells.

13 Q. Were you assigned any particular task to perform as a member of the

14 TO?

15 A. We were told to protect women, children, elderly, but there was such

16 panic that we ourselves moved aimlessly, afraid, moving around without

17 any particular objective.

18 Q. How long did you stay up in the mountain beyond Vidovici?

19 A. Well, I am not sure about the time. I know I set off to look for my

20 family. I did not know what had happened to them and where they were.

21 Q. Did you find your family?

22 A. After some time, how long did that take, I could not tell you, but I

23 did find them finally.

24 Q. What happened then?

25 A. And then we all flocked together in that area, some stayed in the

1 forest, some rallied below Vidovici, some in Vidovici, looking for

2 shelter from the shells.

3 Q. How long did you stay there for?

4 A. We stayed in there until Wednesday, until the orders came, I do not

5 know from whom, to move towards Kozarac.

6 Q. When you say Wednesday, is that the Wednesday after the attack start

7 started on 24th?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you happen to recall what date that was, that Wednesday?

10 A. I could not say with certainty which date it was, but I know it was

11 Wednesday and there was a large mass of people there and they were all

12 withdrawing towards Kozarac.

13 Q. These were women and children?

14 A. Women, children, old people, men -- all.

15 Q. What was the nationality of these people that were in this group?

16 A. Those were Muslims and a smaller number of Catholics.

17 Q. Were any of the people in the group armed with any weapons?

18 A. No, what we did have from the TO, we had discarded them because we

19 had neither orders nor any particular objectives, so whatever we had

20 we threw them away and moved with our families.

21 Q. What about the military uniform that you were dressed in? Did you do

22 anything with that?

23 A. Yes, when I went to look for my family I changed and I left it in the

24 house. I put on the first thing that I laid my hands on.

25 Q. What happened after that? What did you do then?

1 A. I returned to look for my family where as the passers-by had told me,

2 they had seen them, that they were in Vidovici, and that this whole

3 column was in Vidovici and that is where I found my family.

4 Q. Did you and your family then join the column?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What happened then?

7 A. The column was moving towards Kozarac and we were walking for how

8 long, I cannot tell you. We arrived in Kozarac, to the entrance into

9 Kozarac.

10 Q. When you got there what did you see at the entrance of Kozarac?

11 A. There was military there on both sides and up there in my village I

12 saw a tank and the houses burning, and when we came to the main street

13 everybody was running in panic. It was mostly small children.

14 Q. This was the main street of Kozarac?

15 A. You mean when we went -- when we came to the main street?

16 Q. No, I am just asking, you said that there was panic and that people

17 were running in panic in the main street. I am asking you whether it

18 was the main street of Kozarac or the main street of your village?

19 A. No, there was panic from the village up until the main street in

20 Kozarac where the column became much tighter.

21 Q. I would ask you, if you would, and might the witness be shown,

22 Exhibit D12, the Defence Exhibit? (Defence Exhibit D12 was handed to

23 the witness) Would you just have a look at that map for a moment,

24 just to orientate yourself to it, and can you tell me, do you

25 recognise what it is a map of?

1 A. This is a map of Kozarac.

2 Q. I am wondering if you would do something for me? I would like to

3 place this map on the overhead projector screen which is beside you

4 and, with a pointer that is now going to be given to you, could you as

5 best you can trace the route that you took when you came down from

6 Vidovici to Kozarac for me, please, if you could? Take your time and,

7 as best you can, if you can do it. You will need to point to it on

8 the overhead projector for us to all see what you are pointing to.

9 A. It is hard for me to read the maps, but I will try as much as I can.

10 Q. You will need to point to it on the projector, not on the television.

11 Point to the actual map here, if you would not mind?

12 A. Thank you.

13 Q. If you talk in the direction of the microphone, I think it should

14 pick up your voice. Do you see right in the top right-hand corner the

15 word "Vidovi"? As best you can remember, can you tell us how you came

16 down towards Kozarac, the way that column came down towards Kozarac?

17 A. The column went down from Vidovici, down towards Brdjani, towards the

18 mosque. We were approaching Mutnik mosque, between the two

19 graveyards, and then the column started walking on the main street.

20 Q. That is approximately where you your pointer is now, is it? Would

21 you hold it still there?

22 A. Here in Mutnik. This is Mutnik. This is where Mutnik mosque is and

23 this is where we came on to the main street, between the two

24 graveyards.

25 Q. Perhaps that might be returned to the Registrar? You might resume

1 your seat again. Thank you, Mr. Mujcic. As you moved down the main

2 street of Kozarac, after having left the area of the Mutnik mosque,

3 what happened then, can you remember?

4 A. I remember. When we came we were walking by the old school and I

5 came closer to the well because I was at the end of the column, and I

6 saw that by the shop the people were standing by the shop, by the

7 kiosk, and when I took a better look I saw who those people were and

8 who was standing behind them.

9 Q. Can you tell us who the people were that you saw?

10 A. Who were standing against the wall with their arms towards the shop

11 and with their backs turned towards us, those were Karabasic Ismet,

12 Karabasic Ekrem, Karabasic Sejdo, Foric Redzep and the fifth person

13 for whom I am not sure, I suppose that that would be Fikret Alic whom

14 I knew, but I am not absolutely sure because I did not have a good

15 look of him.

16 Q. Were all these people that you saw Muslims?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you know them all?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Did you get a good view of them when you saw them?

21 A. I did.

22 Q. When you say they had their arms outstretched, can you demonstrate to

23 the court how they had their arms positioned? You might stand up and

24 just show us?

25 A. The arms were stretched out towards the kiosk, the shop. Their legs

1 were spread and they were leaning against the shop.

2 Q. Thank you. Perhaps you could resume your seat again? Can you tell

3 us whether they carried any arms that you could see?

4 A. What does this pertain to?

5 Q. I am asking you whether Ismet and Ekrem Karabasic and Sejdo Karabasic

6 and those men that we are just talking about, did they appear to have

7 any arms on them?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Were they dressed in military clothes or civilian clothes that you

10 could see?

11 A. Civilian.

12 Q. Apart from those men that you saw lined up with their arms against

13 the kiosk, did you see anybody else in the area at that time that you

14 recognised?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who did you see?

17 A. I saw Dusko Tadic, I saw Goran Borovnica and Milos Gajic, also known

18 as "Gajo".

19 Q. When you saw Dusko Tadic there, where were you when you first saw

20 Dusko Tadic?

21 A. I was next to the well which is located by a small shoe store at the

22 corner where the road for Kalate leads or where the road for Kalate

23 goes.

24 Q. Can you recall approximately what time of the day or night this was

25 when you saw Dusko Tadic in this place?

1 A. I could not recall what time it was because we did not really care

2 about the time. We did not even think about what time it was.

3 Q. Do you know whether it was day time or night time?

4 A. It was day time, afternoon, but I could not tell you what hour. I do

5 not remember.

6 Q. Did you recognise Dule Tadic when you first saw him?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you recall whether or not he was clean shaven or whether he had a

9 beard at the time?

10 A. As far as I recall, he had a very short beard, as far as I remember.

11 Q. Approximately, how far away from him would you have been in metres

12 when you first saw him?

13 A. When I first saw him it was not very far, because the column was

14 walking and we were approaching.

15 Q. Was your view of Dule Tadic obstructed by any thing or person when

16 you looked at him?

17 A. When I first saw him, no, it was not obstructed.

18 Q. For how long were you able to see Dule Tadic?

19 A. Long enough to be able to recognise him clearly and be able to see

20 what was happening during those moments.

21 Q. Did you see anyone else with Dule Tadic at that time?

22 A. Next to Dule there was Gajic, and in front of Dule was Goran

23 Borovnica who was doing something around Ekrem Karabasic, whether he

24 was searching something around him but, in any case, he was standing

25 by him and I observed this and I saw him hit him with a rifle in the

1 back. I did not see exactly where it was, whether it was the head or

2 the shoulders, but it was that area, that general area.

3 Q. When you say you saw him hit, you are talking of Goran Borovnica

4 hitting him?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Had you ever seen Dule Tadic and Goran Borovnica with each other on

7 any previous occasion prior to this event and prior to the war?

8 A. I did not see that they were friendly. I did not see that before the

9 war. Goran Borovnica used to work as a waiter and I did not really

10 pay attention before the war who was friendly with whom, because this

11 was a large tavern, we used to drop by to that place and Goran

12 Borovnica worked there for a while.

13 Q. Was Goran Borovnica a Serb?

14 A. As far as I know he is.

15 Q. Can you tell me how Tadic was dressed on this occasion?

16 A. He was dressed in a military camouflage uniform. He had a camouflage

17 hat on his head.

18 Q. Can you recall whether or not he had any weapons on his person?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What did he have?

21 A. He had, as far as I could observe, a pistol on his, on himself. I

22 could not see what calibre, but it was a longer, longer pistol than

23 usual, than normal pistols, and he also had an automatic rifle. I did

24 not see what automatic rifle it was because those were awkward

25 moments.

1 Q. Now are you able to say what Dule Tadic was doing with respect to the

2 people who were lined up against the wall with their hands above their

3 heads?

4 A. He stood behind the back of Goran Borovnica. I could not tell you

5 exactly how far away from Goran, perhaps one metre or a metre and a

6 half, and he stood; when I saw him he was just standing.

7 Q. Now what happened then?

8 A. As we were walking we came to about halfway of the road and about

9 halfway of the road towards Kalate and this is where the column

10 stopped. At that time I saw that they were transferring people, that

11 they were taking people across the road and that Dule has moved away

12 from there, and because I was in the middle of the column, as I was

13 carrying my little daughter, she was very young and I was carrying her

14 in my arms, and I was worried about myself. So this is why I tried to

15 get to the middle of the column and in that way protect myself from

16 being recognised.

17 Q. Did you do anything else at this stage to prevent yourself from being

18 recognised, apart from carrying your daughter and move ----

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What did you do?

21 A. I was pulling on a coat upwards in order to protect myself and I was

22 carrying my little daughter in my arms.

23 Q. Did you partially obstruct the view of your face with the collar of

24 your coat?

25 A. I think that I partially protected my face in this way. I am not sure

1 exactly how, to what extent I was able to protect myself.

2 Q. Did you also lift your daughter on to your shoulder and did that also

3 partially obstruct the view of your face, an attempt to partially

4 obstruct the view of your face?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now when you did this, did this in turn also obstruct your view of

7 what was then happening?

8 A. Partially, yes, but I still managed to see that in front of the

9 column on the left side Sejdo Karabasic went to the left side of the

10 column, Redzep Foric, as far as I could see, and this person, this

11 person that I think was Fikret Alic, but I am not certain that this

12 was Fikret Alic.

13 Q. Did you yourself see Ismet and Ekrem Karabasic go across the front of

14 the column to the other side of the road?

15 A. I could clearly see only Sejdo and Redzep and this other person, that

16 they crossed to the other side because at that time we were ordered to

17 walk faster. The soldiers ordered this and they were standing on one

18 side, on both sides of the road.

19 Q. I would like you to look, please, if you would at this plan. Might a

20 copy be given to Mr. Wladimiroff as well. I have already given him a

21 copy. There is a copy for the Judges. Perhaps that could be marked

22 223.

23 Mr. Mujcic, would you please just examine that for a moment

24 and after you have examined it tell me whether or not you recognise

25 what it purports to represent?

1 A. This is the main street going through Kozarac.

2 Q. Is this the place where you say you saw those men lined up against

3 the wall; the area of where you saw those men lined up against the

4 wall?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I tender that, your Honours.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 223 will be admitted.

10 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps the exhibit could be placed on the overhead

11 projector. Mr. Mujcic, I am going to ask you again, if you would for

12 me, to look at this plan on the screen and taking this pen that I give

13 to you I would ask you to make some markings on the plan for me. I

14 think perhaps the best way to do it would be for you when I ask you to

15 hop up and just make the marking and then sit down again so we can

16 pick up your voice on the microphone. First of all, do you see the

17 area on the plan referred to as the Mutnik Mosque?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. That is at the top of the plan and down the bottom of the plan do you

20 see the word "Trnopolje"?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. To the right of the plan the word "Kula"?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And to the left of the plan "Kalate"?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Is that the representation of the intersection that you just gave

2 evidence about, and was the column in effect moving from the top of

3 the plan towards the bottom of the plan; in other words, was the

4 column moving from the Mutnik Mosque area down towards Trnopolje?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is this a representation of the main street of Kozarac, the Marsala

7 Tita Street?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Are there two roads then leading off, one going to the little

10 village of Kalate, and the other road heading towards Kula which is a

11 town?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now taking the pen that I have given to you, would you draw an arrow

14 showing the direction that the column was marching down that street?

15 A. Can I get up?

16 Q. Yes, please.

17 A. (The witness marked the plan).

18 Q. Thank you. Now could you make a mark at the place where you say you

19 saw these five men lined up with their hands against the wall, that

20 is, Ismet and Ekrem, Sejdo Karabasic and Redzep, could you make a mark

21 on that plan where you say you saw those men?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Would you just draw an X there at that spot, an X at that spot.

24 A. (The witness marked the plan).

25 Q. Would you mark on the plan, as best you can recollect, the place

1 where you saw the well in front of the old school was?

2 A. (The witness marked the plan).

3 Q. Would you put ----

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What is that? Is that a W?

5 MR. NIEMANN: I will ask him to do that, your Honour. Would you put a W

6 there at that spot?

7 A. (The witness marked on the plan).

8 Q. Would you mark on that plan with the letter T approximately the area

9 where you saw Dule Tadic?

10 A. (The witness marked on the plan).

11 Q. Would you also mark on that plan approximately, write with the

12 letter B, approximately the spot where you saw Borovnica?

13 A. (The witness indicated on the plan).

14 Q. Would you also draw an arrow in the direction of where you saw Sejdo

15 and Redzep taken across the front of the column, in what direction

16 were they taken would you please draw an arrow?

17 A. I apologise. How should I mark this?

18 Q. Just draw an arrow and could you put an S in front of it?

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: He wants to know how do you want the arrow to be

20 drawn.

21 MR. NIEMANN: I want you to draw the arrow in the direction that these men

22 were taken. That is a very small arrow. Do you think you could draw

23 just a slightly bigger one for us?

24 A. (The witness marked the plan).

25 Q. In front of the other arrow which was the direction the column was

1 going, the bottom arrow going towards Trnopolje, would you put the

2 letter C, the way the column was going. That is it, yes. If you

3 would just put the letter C there, please.

4 A. Above or below the arrow?

5 Q. Above is fine.

6 A. (The witness marked on the plan).

7 Q. Thank you. You may sit down. Might that plan be returned to the

8 Registrar. This place where you first saw the five men standing with

9 their hands against the wall, Ismet and Ekrem, Sejdo Karabasic, Redzep

10 Foric and the other gentleman you are not sure of, can you describe

11 what this building was used for? What was the building before the war

12 used for?

13 A. That was a kiosk, a stand that was used for selling chicken in that

14 area.

15 Q. Thank you. Now you have mentioned a couple of times in your evidence

16 the reference to Kula. What is a Kula in your language?

17 A. That is an old, old building that has remained here in Kozarac from

18 the old times.

19 Q. It is a tower is it, an old tower?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Were there any other major buildings in that immediate vicinity that

22 you can recollect being there prior to the war when you lived in

23 Kozarac, perhaps on the other side of the road from the chicken kiosk?

24 A. You mean across the road on the other side?

25 Q. That is correct.

1 A. There was a supermarket and a store selling cevapi (which is grill)

2 and also the photographers stand, a shop, and a shop which was renting

3 video cassettes.

4 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. Your Honours, I now had proposed showing the

5 video Exhibit 195, but it might be a convenient time perhaps to show

6 that after the adjournment.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Those other shops were across the street from the

8 chicken building, I gather?

9 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. I might get the witness to mark them.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It is OK. That is what I thought he said, across.

11 Very good. We will stand in recess then until 2.30.

12 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I have made notes of what I told you this morning and,

13 if you would like to have it, I may tender it together with the Rules

14 as drawn by Professor Wagenaar attached to it. If the Prosecution has

15 no objection I will provide you also with a copy of it.

16 MR. NIEMANN: I assume it is part of Mr. Wladimiroff's submissions and, if

17 that is the case, certainly we have no objection. We would

18 appreciate a copy.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Yes, we accept it. We will stand in recess

20 until 2.30.

21 (1.00 p.m.)

22

23 (2.30 p.m.)

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The representative from the Registry has reminded me

25 that Exhibit 223 was admitted as a nice clean drawing and then, of

1 course, the witness made marks on it. The Defence has no objection,

2 do you, to the marks?

3 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So I suppose you will have to -- he made marks on

5 the original, did he not?

6 MR. NIEMANN: Original, your Honour.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, then it will be admitted as marked by the

8 witness. Mr. Niemann, are you ready to proceed?

9 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour. Might the witness be recalled?

10 Your Honour, at this stage I will be asking to show a video.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Niemann, please?

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sometimes we forget that we need witnesses and other

13 participants!

14 MUJCIC FERID, continued.

15 Examined by MR. NIEMANN, continued.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may be seated, sir.

17 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Mujcic, I would now ask that you watch a video and the

18 video monitor, I hope, is turned on so that can you see it, but if you

19 are looking at the screen, might Exhibit 195 be played? Mr. Mujcic,

20 this video will play through quickly. If you see something as we are

21 going through the video, would you ask us to stop and then tell us

22 what it is that you see? The video depicts going up the street in

23 Kozarac and then down again. As we are going up the street, we will

24 do so quickly. If you see anything, tell us and we will stop the

25 video. We will put it on fast forward.

1 As we reach the Mutnik mosque, we will turn around. The video,

2 in fact, turns around and goes down the street. At that stage we will

3 go at normal spread. As we are going down the street, I will get you

4 to explain various features of the street as we go down, so can we

5 play that video now and could it be played on fast forward unless and

6 until we ask for it to be stopped or slowed down? That is Exhibit

7 195, your Honour. Can you see that on your screen, Mr. Mujcic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Perhaps that could be played at fast forward? Slow down, a little

10 bit more forward. Perhaps it could be played at that speed. (The

11 video was played) Do you see anything that you recognise that you

12 want to -----

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Stop now. Could it stop at this point? Yes?

15 A. If we go a little bit backward to the post office, I recognise the

16 post office building and the cinema.

17 Q. OK. Could we just scroll back a little bit, please, and could you

18 tell us when to stop?

19 A. Stop. This was the post office in Kozarac.

20 Q. Thank you. Now go through forward again, please.

21 A. The cinema.

22 Q. Just slow down here, please. Play at ordinary speed there. Now

23 perhaps fast forward it up until the mosque. Play on. Now at this

24 stage the camera is being turned around and we are heading back down

25 the street and could it be played at ordinary speed from here on? Can

1 you describe, is this the route that the column was marching on that

2 Wednesday that you came down from Mount Vidovic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Stop there. Do you recognise that feature slightly to the left of

5 the centre of the screen?

6 A. This is the well next to the old school. We already passed the

7 school building.

8 Q. Could we go back a bit, please?

9 A. I cannot see very well.

10 Q. We will go back a little bit. Can we scroll back a little bit? That

11 big building -----

12 A. This is the old school.

13 Q. Very slowly, if we just go forward? Continue.

14 A. Stop.

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. To the right there is first the well, and then the shop of Ramo

17 Hankic. He was the shoemaker. Here he repaired shoes and also made

18 them.

19 Q. That is the reddy coloured shop to the right of centre of the screen,

20 is it, as you look at the screen?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is there anything else that you can see on that screen that you wish

23 to point to?

24 A. I cannot really see everything. It has changed. It has been

25 destroyed, but if you could move slightly forward, please?

1 Q. Move slightly forward, please.

2 A. Good, fine.

3 Q. Stop there.

4 A. This is the road leading to Kalate, to the right and across the

5 street. The door belonged to the storage space of a discotheque that

6 we had in Kozarac. It was the discotheque, the door in front and a

7 little bit to the left, you have gone -- to the right is to Kalate, to

8 the left were two stands -- because this is not very clear and it is

9 difficult to tell.

10 Q. Yes. Is that -----

11 A. A little bit forward.

12 Q. Just stop there, if we may? Do you recognise that building that we

13 see now on the screen?

14 A. This is really very dim. I cannot really say.

15 Q. So can we go forward, please?

16 A. Just a moment. Stop. There were two stands here, two kiosks were

17 here.

18 Q. When you say "stands" do you mean kiosks? When you are referring to

19 "stands", are you talking about kiosks?

20 A. Kiosks.

21 Q. Could you scroll back, please? Stop. Is that the stand or kiosk

22 that you were talking about?

23 A. It is so unclear, that picture is so unclear, I cannot see properly.

24 I do not understand this. This kiosk stand that I see, I do not

25 understand because if this is a road to Kalate, there were no kiosks

1 on the way to Kalate. It was aligned with the main road, but I really

2 cannot see clearly at all.

3 Q. OK.

4 A. The stand or kiosk, I simply cannot figure it out.

5 Q. OK. Can we go forward, please?

6 A. Stop.

7 Q. Stop here.

8 A. There were two kiosks by the main road, the first one selling

9 chickens and another one was selling bread and other food stuffs,

10 other bakery products, and there was a third one which was a

11 tobacconist stand now behind it. One went to the right behind the

12 lower kiosk to the discotheque and on the corner was the local commune

13 or local office, as we called it, but now these kiosks are gone.

14 Q. Was it against the first kiosk that you saw those men lined up with

15 their hands against the wall?

16 A. Yes, yes, up in the front here, one passed here. There is a tree

17 standing and then a couple of metres further on along the street where

18 one can see something blue, like snow seems to be covering here. One

19 does not see clearly, but that is where the kiosks were, so along the

20 main street rather than to the right where the road to Kalate leads.

21 Q. Thank you. That can be turned off now. After you passed that well

22 that you mentioned in front of the school where you say you first saw

23 Tadic as you were walking in that column, did you see Tadic again as

24 you got closer to that kiosk?

25 A. When I came to the centre, midway on the road to Kalate, perhaps not

1 exactly midway, but more or less halfway to Kalate, I could see him

2 very clearly as a person in front of me.

3 Q. Are you sure that it was Tadic that you saw on this day?

4 A. I am sure, completely.

5 Q. What happened then after you walked past this kiosk? Where did you

6 go to then?

7 A. Then I went towards the Banja Luka/Prijedor road. The column was

8 moving in that direction.

9 Q. Where did the column finally end up?

10 A. It ended up in Kozarusa by a restaurant, by a tavern, we called

11 "Zikina". That is where the separation of men from women and children

12 began.

13 Q. What happened then?

14 A. Men were separated, singled out, on a lawn by the tavern, and with

15 the women, children and old people, I do not know what happened and

16 where they went because they went on. They left.

17 Q. Where did you go? Where were you taken?

18 A. I stayed there for a while with many people, and then we were all

19 loaded on to buses and taken to Keraterm.

20 Q. When you say you stayed there, you stayed at Kozarusa?

21 A. I could not tell you how long because every minute seemed very long.

22 Q. How long did it take you to get into Keraterm?

23 A. I could not tell you how long the journey lasted because to us it

24 seemed very long. From that place to Keraterm, the distance is very

25 short.

1 Q. You arrived at Keraterm in the dark, did you?

2 A. One could still, there were still some daylight when we arrived. It

3 was late, but there was still some daylight.

4 Q. What happened when you arrived at Keraterm, what happened to you

5 then?

6 A. We were taken off the buses there. We were kept between two buses

7 and we waited. We waited for a long time, how many hours, I do not

8 know, I cannot remember; and then we were again pushed on to buses.

9 Q. When you say "we", was that men, women and children or just men and

10 if it were men, what was the varying age groups of these men?

11 A. Those were men only.

12 Q. Approximately, what was the range of ages of these men?

13 A. Well, it varied. As to the age, I cannot really be very specific.

14 There were people of all age groups in that group where I was. There

15 were young men of 15, 16 years of age, and there were people over 50

16 whom I knew and who also came with us.

17 Q. Where were you taken when you were loaded back on to the buses again?

18 A. We were loaded back on to the buses. We did not know where we were

19 going, but we ended up at Omarska.

20 Q. During the course of the journey to Keraterm and then out to Omarska

21 were you beaten or otherwise mistreated?

22 A. Yes, there were all sorts of things. I was somewhere in the middle

23 of the bus and I could not see things that were going on in the front,

24 but one could hear filthy language, undignified language.

25 Q. When you arrived at Omarska what happened?

1 A. When we arrived in Omarska we were brought to a building at Omarska

2 and there the first ones to be separated were Esad Karabasic and one

3 Huka Jakovic who used to work in our mountaineering lodge on Debeli

4 Brijeg.

5 Q. What about yourself, what did they do with you?

6 A. We were pushed through the entrance of that building so we went

7 upstairs to the first room, up the stairs to the right.

8 Q. Was this big room a large garage, was it?

9 A. No, it was a room to the right and the first one was empty and beyond

10 it one had to pass through it, there were walls on two sides, and

11 further on I could see some tubs and something which looked like a

12 toilet, but I did not go there.

13 Q. Did someone try to escape when you first arrived at Omarska?

14 A. Before we entered the building, Huse Tadic tried to escape from the

15 second bus that was coming behind us. We heard shots and later on we

16 heard that he had been killed.

17 Q. Were you taken for interrogation when you were in Omarska?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Where were you taken?

20 A. Above the kitchen where we had our lunch, usually. It was one floor

21 higher.

22 Q. Do you know who you were interrogated by?

23 A. The first person I recognised was Nada Balaban. There was one from

24 Kosovo, he worked at Mrakovica. I do not know his name. I think his

25 surname might be Kos, but I am not quite sure. He is a person of

1 somewhat advanced age, over 50, tall, very skinny and there were some

2 other soldiers.

3 Q. Were you interrogated on three occasions?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were they asking you questions about your involvement of the TO

6 during the course of your interrogation?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. During the interrogations were you beaten?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were you beaten on the first occasion that you were interrogated?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Who beat you, do you know?

13 A. I do not know who were those people, but they were in military

14 clothes. There was somebody called Krkan. I did not know him before

15 but I met him on this occasion.

16 Q. With what were you beaten?

17 A. Well, they beat with different objects such as batons, feet, boots,

18 open palm, whatever they laid their hands on, those who were in

19 uniforms.

20 Q. Were you rendered unconscious during the course of these beatings?

21 A. Twice. I fainted twice during the interrogations.

22 Q. What happened to you after you lost consciousness?

23 A. I do not know, but when I regained consciousness I was returned to

24 the room -- I mean the first time I fainted I was returned to the room

25 in which I had been.

1 Q. Where was the room located that you were returned to in the camp?

2 A. After the first interrogation they did not take me back to the room

3 where I had been on the floor upstairs. I was taken to a room on the

4 ground floor, and to the left when one would enter, there were dump

5 trucks and from the entrance they would turn to the right and took me

6 to a room where I found other people too.

7 Q. Was this a very large building where they used to store and repair

8 the big mining trucks that operated the Omarska mine?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Apart from the times when you were interrogated, were you beaten on

11 other occasions when you were in Omarska?

12 A. Yes, many times.

13 Q. Do you recall being beaten on 18th June 1992 by Kopka (sic)?

14 A. Not Kopka, Kvocka.

15 Q. I am sorry, that is my pronunciation. Can you tell us about that

16 incident?

17 A. Yes, that day Kvocka battered me. I was really battered. I returned.

18 He told me to sit next to the door as before and I returned. After

19 that Emir Karabasic was called out.

20 Q. Were you by this stage back in the place where you normally stayed in

21 the camp, this was after the beating?

22 A. Not where I was when I first came. That was on the upper floor and

23 this was on the ground floor where trucks were, and ---

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. -- channels where one repairs vehicles.

1 Q. Yes, I meant this place where you had been taken to. What happened?

2 A. I mean, I had to sit next to the door as I was told. It was 18th

3 June when they were taken out, after a long time. I do not know how

4 -- the time that he left, I do not know, but then Emir Karabasic was

5 taken out.

6 Q. Do you know what time of the day it was?

7 A. I could not tell you exactly but it was in the afternoon.

8 Q. Do you know who it is that took out Emir Karabasic?

9 A. The guard opened the door and called out his name.

10 Q. When the door was open did you look out of the door?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When you looked out of the door what did you see?

13 A. Yes, I looked through the door and I saw Dusko Tadic standing behind

14 the guard and with him another one, slightly taller. They were

15 standing about a metre and a half to two behind the guard.

16 Q. How was Dusko Tadic dressed on this occasion?

17 A. He had a camouflage army uniform.

18 Q. Did you notice whether he was armed or carried any other weapons?

19 A. Yes. As far as I could see, he had on his belt a pistol and he held

20 a rifle in his hand.

21 Q. What happened then?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What was the next thing to happen that you can recollect?

24 A. I remember that shortly afterwards the door opened again.

25 Q. What happened?

1 A. Jasko Hrnic was called out.

2 Q. Then did you hear anything happen after that?

3 A. After a certain time there was a silence around us in the room where

4 there were many detainees. There was such a silence that one could

5 not hear anything. There was no noise at all. Then we heard the

6 screaming.

7 Q. Apart from the screaming, did you hear anything else?

8 A. We heard very bad language.

9 Q. Although it may be embarrassing for you, can you as best as you

10 recollect tell us the words that you heard spoken out there?

11 A. This is very embarrassing to use this language but I remember those

12 words that were addressed to us, although we did not know who these

13 words were addressed to and why.

14 Q. Just tell us what you heard, the words that you heard as best you can

15 remember?

16 A. If I have to, and this is very embarrassing, but if I have to, I will

17 try ---

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You should.

19 THE WITNESS: -- to say those words.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It is important that we hear what you said, so

21 although you may be reluctant to repeat the words, please do so.

22 THE WITNESS: They were curses, there were questions as to if I have to

23 fuck a person, then I did not hear what person, and after that there

24 were words that to lick somebody's arse, to smoke the genital organ,

25 to give a blow job to one another.

1 MR. NIEMANN: Did you hear any other words spoken?

2 A. After that there were very loud screams and they were saying, "Pull,

3 pull stronger", and even now I can hear these words sounding in my

4 ears.

5 Q. Are there any other words that you heard? As best you can, tell us

6 the exact words that you heard.

7 A. I am using the exact words that I heard.

8 Q. Are there any other words that you heard?

9 A. "Pull tighter", "squeeze it tighter". These are the words that I

10 heard. The screams reflected great pain. They were deathly moans,

11 but I did not know what has happening.

12 Q. What happened then, after you heard these screams?

13 A. I do not know how long this lasted, but to me it looked very long,

14 because we were in fear and I was in fear myself. After that we heard

15 them calling out the names, the guards were calling out the names,

16 they called Eno Alic.

17 Q. What happened then?

18 A. After that, after a certain time, one could also hear noise, screams

19 reflecting strong pain, moans, and after that everything went silent

20 because I was afraid, and so was everybody else in the room, we were

21 afraid that they would come and get somebody else because you never

22 knew whose turn it was.

23 Q. From that time to now did you ever see Emir Karabasic, Jasmin Hrnic

24 or Eno Alic again?

25 A. No, after that I personally never saw any of those persons.

1 Q. Did you go out the next morning, out into the open area of this large

2 garage?

3 A. I went to the toilet in the morning, the next morning, where I saw

4 blood all over the walls. I saw broken lumber and I saw pieces of

5 clothes, one shoe that belonged to Emir Karabasic.

6 Q. Did you ever see the accused Dule Tadic in Omarska camp on any other

7 occasion apart from the one that you have just attested to, testified

8 to?

9 A. I saw this person once again when I was in a line to go to lunch,

10 and I was heading from the kitchen towards the white house at the

11 entrance where we were located, in the room where we lived.

12 Q. Was he on his own or was he accompanied by anyone when you saw him on

13 this occasion?

14 A. There were two men in uniforms.

15 Q. How were they dressed? How was Dule Tadic dressed on this occasion?

16 A. He had a camouflage uniform.

17 Q. Did you see whether or not he had any weapons with him on this

18 occasion?

19 A. Yes, he always had weapons on him, but I am not sure as to what kind

20 because one could see on his hip a pistol.

21 Q. How long were you then kept in the Omarska camp, for how long?

22 A. I could not tell you how long I stayed in Omarska, and then

23 afterwards we were transferred to Manjaca. I only found out later

24 that there were 170 people left at Omarska behind us when we were

25 transferred to Manjaca and I could not give you the exact date.

1 Q. Did you lose weight when were you in the camp at Omarska?

2 A. When I came to England for medical treatment on September 15th I

3 weighed 34 kilogrammes.

4 Q. How much had you weighed approximately before you went into the camp?

5 A. My normal, my usual weight has always been 73 to 75 kilogrammes.

6 Q. How was your physical condition when you came out of Omarska camp?

7 Had you suffered any injury?

8 A. My medical condition was fairly poor because those were the last

9 moments of my life. I was totally beaten up. I was broken, sick.

10 Q. Do you still to this day suffer from some of the effects of the

11 injuries that you suffered in the Omarska camp?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Were you interviewed by Tribunal investigators at your home on 6th

14 May this year?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were notes of the interview taken down during the course of your

17 interview?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. However, was a statement ever presented to you for signature?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Was the statement ever read to you in total by the interpreter that

22 was present there on that occasion that you were interviewed?

23 A. He started reading something, but did not read everything in its

24 entirety.

25 Q. Thank you. Would you look around the courtroom, please, and do you

1 see the person that you know as Dule Tadic?

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Just one minute, please.

3 MR. KAY: Your Honour, we have discussed this matter earlier today and it

4 might be appropriate as well if my learned friend mentioned whether

5 any photographs have been shown to this witness prior to this

6 procedure taking place. I know the court has ruled already on the

7 procedure and that is not something that we are taking issue with, but

8 there was mention today of the photographic procedure and whether it

9 should be adduced in evidence to put any identification in court in

10 context.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think so. I just do not know that it is

12 appropriate for the Chamber to direct Mr. Niemann to ask the

13 questions. Excuse me, just one minute.

14 (The learned Judges conferred)

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, it appears at least, as we have indicated

16 in earlier rulings regarding identification by a witness of Mr. Tadic

17 in the courtroom, that if the proper foundation is laid, that is, that

18 he had sufficient knowledge as we have indicated, I do not think it is

19 necessary for me to repeat it.

20 MR. KAY: Yes.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Now, however, you have raised an additional point.

22 Mr. Wladimiroff raised a point this morning regarding the photospread.

23 My only suggestion was that if you took the position that the

24 photospread somehow would change the court's position that it has

25 expressed previously, then that should come out at some point before

1 the identification is made of Mr. Tadic.

2 MR. KAY: Yes.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I would not want to tell Mr. Niemann to elicit those

4 questions because that is not his responsibility. So I do not know how

5 it would be handled. As I have said several times, we are in a

6 Tribunal and it is a new and a different procedure and it is a

7 wonderful creation that we have created. In my system, however, you

8 would ask to take the witness on voir dire and ask them the questions

9 yourself. I do not know how you want to handle it.

10 To be very honest, from what we have heard from this witness

11 thus far, the Judges are inclined to overrule the objection in any

12 case because, consist with our prior rulings, Mr. Niemann has

13 elicited from this witness a sufficient foundation, but you may know

14 something that I do not know.

15 MR. KAY: We will leave it with Mr. Niemann.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Then are you finished? At this point I

17 interrupted the witness. You had asked him if he could identify Mr.

18 Tadic. You should repeat the question, if you will.

19 MR. NIEMANN (To the witness): Mr. Mujcic, would you please look around

20 the courtroom and tell me whether or not you see the accused Dule

21 Tadic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Would you point to him and describe where he is in the courtroom?

24 A. Yes, he is sitting between two policemen and he is dressed in a

25 greenish suit. He has a tie and he is looking directly at me.

1 Q. Might the record reflect that, your Honour?

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. The record will so reflect that the witness

3 has identified Mr. Tadic.

4 MR. NIEMANN: I have no further questions of this witness, your Honour.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Mr. Kay?

6 Cross-examined by MR. KAY

7 Q. Mr. Mujcic, I want to ask you some questions about the events that

8 took place when you returned to Kozarac village or town after the

9 shelling of the town had stopped.

10 A. Yes, I did not understand the question.

11 Q. I was advising you what I was going to ask you questions about. You

12 have told us that that was a Wednesday and that with many other people

13 you returned to Kozarac in a convoy which had originated from

14 Vidovici; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were the people in that convoy just those who had been sheltering in

17 Vidovici or did it also include people who were joining the convoy who

18 had been sheltering in the woods around Kozarac?

19 A. Everything was -- people were moving from Vidovici and other side

20 roads, from Nagrijenac, because there were a lot of people, a lot of

21 men, a lot of children, children, and everything was moving heading

22 towards Kozarac, down along Brdjani road.

23 Q. That is right, is it not, that the shelling of the town had stopped

24 by then and there was a move of the population down from the hillsides

25 into the town?

1 A. Everybody who was in that area in Vidovici and on the right side from

2 the Modrinac direction, everybody was moving towards Kozarac down from

3 Brdjani.

4 Q. You have told the court that you were at or towards the end of this

5 convoy; is that right?

6 A. No, I did not say that I was towards the end or towards the middle

7 because I did not know where the end or where the middle or where the

8 beginning were.

9 Q. Are you able to tell us at all what position you were in in the

10 convoy? Were there many people left in Vidovici when you left it?

11 A. I do not know how many remained where, but the column was, there was

12 a column -- there were people behind me and there were people in front

13 of me in the column.

14 Q. The numbers of people involved in this convoy, was it a great many?

15 A. A great many.

16 Q. As the convoy progressed into Kozarac, did many more people join it

17 from the surrounding roads and buildings?

18 A. I could not give you an answer to that because I was not paying

19 attention.

20 Q. How long did it take you to get from Vidovici down to the Mutnik

21 mosque?

22 A. I do not know how long it took us because nobody even thought of

23 measuring the time it took. We were fighting for our own lives.

24 Q. Can you remember what time the convoy started moving from Vidovici?

25 A. Afternoon, and I do not know exactly what time.

1 Q. When you set off on this convoy, did you know where you were going?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Were you aware, then, that Serb soldiers had taken control of Kozarac

4 town?

5 A. I had heard from others, but I was not sure myself until I saw it

6 myself.

7 Q. You changed out of your JNA uniform because you would have expected

8 to be at great risk to have continued to wear such clothing; is that

9 right?

10 A. Would you please repeat the question?

11 Q. You changed out of your JNA uniform because you were aware that if

12 you had worn it you would have been in great risk?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were there others who had also changed out of their military clothing

15 into civilian clothes that you were aware of in that column?

16 A. I did not see anybody else, because where I changed in my house there

17 was no-one else changing their clothes with me at that time.

18 Q. When you were in that column moving from Vidovici down to Kozarac,

19 would it be right to say that the people in that column were very

20 frightened and fearful of what might happen to them?

21 A. When we started from Vidovici towards Kozarac everyone was frightened

22 and in panic; people did not know what was going to happen to them and

23 this is how I felt myself.

24 Q. Can you help me at all again as to how long it took you to get from

25 Vidovici down to the Mutnik mosque area of Kozarac?

1 A. I could not give you the time.

2 Q. What it just a long column of people? You could not see the head of

3 the column and you could not see the back of the column?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When you arrived into Kozarac town itself, in the area of the Mutnik

6 mosque, what was the situation in Kozarac?

7 A. The soldiers stood on both sides, everybody was frightened, that is

8 normal. The houses were burning on each side. We were directed and

9 we came to the main road and then they made us march down the main

10 street of Kozarac.

11 Q. When you say the main road you mean Marsala Tita Street; is that

12 right?

13 A. Yes, that street goes through Kozarac.

14 Q. Did you join that street in the area of the Mutnik mosque?

15 A. We came down from Brdjani. We came to Mutnik mosque and this is

16 where, when we came to the main street, we turned to the left.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 A. You are welcome.

19 Q. The soldiers that you saw in this part of the town, were they armed?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you see any other military vehicles?

22 A. Yes, there were tanks, and other vehicles. In the locations where

23 they were standing, I could not tell you exactly what locations. I

24 know that I saw one in Brdjani, a tank, and I am sure about it. I am

25 sure about where it stood and others were in different locations and

1 we did not pay attention to what stood where.

2 Q. You mentioned that there were fires; would it be right to say that

3 there were a large number of buildings on fire on both sides of

4 Marsala Tita Street?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Presumably, that added to the confusion and fear that all of you had

7 in that convoy?

8 A. I think it did. There was a lot of excitement because people were

9 moving down and it took a long time.

10 Q. Did the column fill the width of the street?

11 A. No, not the whole street, somewhere it did, somewhere it did not, and

12 this is how the column moved. It depends on how they allowed us.

13 Q. Were there any motorized vehicles in that column that you were part

14 of?

15 A. There were tractors, carts with horses, as far as I could see, and I

16 do not know about anything else.

17 Q. Were you on foot or travelling in a vehicle?

18 A. On foot.

19 Q. You have mentioned being with your daughter. Would it be right to

20 say that you were in a group that consisted of your family?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you remember any other names of people who were with you at that

23 time in that convoy?

24 A. No, because everybody just looked for a place for himself and moved

25 there.

1 Q. I was not thinking of members of your family, but any other friends

2 that you may have had in that column at that time that you were moving

3 through Kozarac who were with you whom you could name?

4 A. I cannot tell you anything more except there was my wife and my

5 children because there were people moving forward and then lagging

6 behind. I could not really name anyone.

7 Q. There came a stage when you came to this junction where the road

8 turns right to Kalate?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You were at that stage on Marsala Tita Street?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you recollect how long you had been walking in Marsala Tita

13 Street for when you came to that junction of the road to Kalate?

14 A. Well, it is not very far from the road which we took to reach the

15 main road. The distance is not particularly big there.

16 Q. Did it not take you very long before you had reached the Kalate

17 junction?

18 A. Sorry?

19 Q. Did it take you only a short while before you reached the Kalate

20 junction?

21 A. I do not know how long it took me. I cannot remember. All I am

22 saying is that the distance is quite short between -- from the place

23 where one takes the main road to this junction to Kalate.

24 Q. Can you remember what time of the day it was?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Had you been walking for a long while in that convoy before you

2 reached that place?

3 A. From the very beginning, from Vidovici, I was with that column all

4 the time.

5 Q. You had had four days since the attack on Kozarac took place; is that

6 right?

7 A. It was Wednesday when we set off to Kozarac, how many days had

8 passed, I paid no attention to that and I cannot really say, but I do

9 know that it was Wednesday when we set off from Vidovici.

10 Q. We have been told and it is a matter of record that the attack on

11 Kozarac took place on the Sunday in the early afternoon?

12 A. I do not know what time of the day it was when there was the attack

13 on Kozarac, but the date was the 24th. That is when the shelling of

14 Kozarac started.

15 Q. In those four days, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, you had been

16 surviving in very difficult circumstances; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. There had been shelling of your home town?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You had seen the destruction of property?

21 A. I could not see the destruction going on, but later on when I passed

22 through it, I saw it here and there smoke going up while we were in

23 Vidovici, and I could not see how the destruction was taking place

24 because one was trying to save one's life.

25 Q. You had seen the fleeing of people from their home town out into the

1 woods and hills nearby?

2 A. First day, yes.

3 Q. Had you been able to eat much during that time, those four days?

4 A. It never occurred to me to eat anything or drink.

5 Q. Had you got much sleep during those four days?

6 A. I do not know if I slept then. I cannot remember.

7 Q. Did you have a bed to sleep in during those four days?

8 A. Who would stay in bed yet expecting a shell to fall on him any time?

9 Q. So by the time you reached Kozarac on that Wednesday, would it be

10 right to say that you were very tired and had had probably the most

11 difficult period of your life to live through?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You would have been hungry, thirsty?

14 A. I experienced no hunger and no thirst at the time.

15 Q. Presumably, you were very tired?

16 A. I did not feel even any fatigue.

17 Q. Do you think that is something you were denying to yourself that you

18 felt fatigue or do you think that, in fact, you were an exhausted

19 individual?

20 A. I had no time to think about such things.

21 Q. Presumably, the others around you were in the same condition?

22 A. Naturally.

23 Q. When you get to the area of Marsala Tita Street, was that the first

24 time in that area that you had seen Serb troops?

25 A. In that area? I do not know what question you are asking me there.

1 I do not understand your question.

2 Q. Had you seen any Serb soldiers before you reached Marsala Tita Street

3 in Kozarac on that Wednesday?

4 A. Yes, there were also downhill from Brdjani on the left and right-hand

5 side, there were soldiers.

6 Q. Would you have passed through Brdjani on your way from Vidovici to

7 Kozarac on that Wednesday?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were there many Serbian troops in Brdjani?

10 A. From both sides there were soldiers, I do not know how many. I could

11 not give you the number.

12 Q. The column that you are in moving down Marsala Tita Street is also

13 moving through Serb soldiers; is that right?

14 A. I am sorry, could you repeat the question, please?

15 Q. The column that you are in moving down Marsala Tita Street is also

16 moving through Serb soldiers?

17 A. The column in which I was and which was moving down Kozarac on the

18 left side, on the right side, were Serb soldiers and those who were

19 moving were civilians, not soldiers.

20 Q. The soldiers you have told us were directing which way the column

21 should go?

22 A. When we reached the high street the column turned to the left. I do

23 not know who directed it there but, at any rate, they headed in that

24 direction and that is where I saw Serb soldiers on the right side, and

25 probably they were showing to go to the left and not to the right

1 where they were standing.

2 Q. Can we look now at the plan you produced to the court this morning

3 -- Exhibit 223, your Honours -- and if a copy could be placed before

4 the witness and put on the overhead projector? As I understand it,

5 Mr. Mujcic, this is a drawing that was made by you; is that right?

6 A. May I look at it there because here I cannot see it very well?

7 Q. Yes. Is this a drawing by you, Mr. Mujcic?

8 A. Yes. Yes. I only made those signs, the arrows, but the plan was

9 drawn by somebody else.

10 Q. As I understand it now, someone else from the Prosecution had drawn

11 the layout for you in advance; is that right?

12 A. I do not know. All I did was show the arrows, the directions and I

13 put the arrows down there, and when I was asked various things I

14 marked them, and that is what I did.

15 Q. Yes. I would like to look carefully at the "X" where you have placed

16 the men on this plan. That is a spot that you would have walked past,

17 you say, when the column was moving through Kozarac; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How many men did you see with their arms up against the shop?

20 A. Five.

21 Q. Had you seen any of those five men earlier in the day?

22 A. No, I do not remember seeing them. I do not recall even some days

23 before that or that day.

24 Q. When you were moving down Marsala Tita Street, is it your evidence

25 that you first saw those men when you were at the position of the well

1 near the old school?

2 A. That day as we were moving down the road I saw them for the first

3 time.

4 Q. You had not seen them arrive in that position or being taken to that

5 position?

6 A. No, all I saw was Goran doing something around Ekrem Karabasic and I

7 saw him hit him with a rifle.

8 Q. On this plan that you have made your markings upon, if you look

9 carefully at the position you have put Mr. Tadic and Borovnica ---

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- they would be standing between the men and the shop; is that

12 right?

13 A. How could it be between those men and the shop when men are leaning

14 against the shop and Goran and another, Gajic, was standing behind,

15 only Borovnica was next to those men. It could not be between the

16 shop but behind their backs towards me.

17 Q. I am asking you because this is your drawing -- this is not my

18 drawing, you understand -- and you have marked the letters "T" and "B"

19 on the side of the place where the men have been indicated by an "X"

20 in a place where the kiosk would have been; is that not right?

21 A. The men were standing next to the kiosk with their arms up where

22 there is the "X" mark, and Dusko and Gajic were standing behind them,

23 roughly at this distance I have indicated, and Borovnica was next to

24 them and behind them.

25 Q. From your evidence this morning, I understood you to say -- correct

1 me if I am wrong -- that the men had their arms outstretched and were

2 leaning against the building?

3 A. It was no building, it was a kiosk, and with their arms up. They had

4 their arms against the kiosk, against the wall of the kiosk, and with

5 their legs spread.

6 Q. The kiosk faced on to Marsala Tita Street?

7 A. Yes, length-wise and it was -- and the window opening was overlooking

8 the Marsala Tita Street.

9 Q. You showed us on the video film the space that now exists on the high

10 street of Marsala Tita Street where the kiosks are no longer?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I think you told us that there were two kiosks; one kiosk that sold

13 tobacco and another kiosk that sold something else?

14 A. The first kiosk where Karabasic and others were was selling chickens

15 and the other one various bakery products, a third was a

16 tobacconist's, and they had only one wall, one wall was for the kiosk

17 selling tobacco and cigarettes and the one selling bakery products,

18 whereas the kiosk selling chickens was some half a metre away from

19 these other two.

20 Q. So where do you say, according to this plan, first of all, Goran

21 Borovnica would have been standing? Is it where you have indicated or

22 somewhere else on the plan?

23 A. Where was the kiosk? The kiosk was where it is marked with an "X",

24 and it ran along the road, and they were standing at the front of the

25 kiosk with their arms up and Borovnica was behind them and about a

1 metre behind Borovnica, I would not know exactly, perhaps a little

2 more or a little less, were Dusko and Gajic.

3 Q. So have you put on this plan the words "T" and "B" in the wrong

4 place?

5 A. How could I put them in the wrong place? No.

6 Q. Because they appear at the moment, as you look at the plan, to be

7 standing in between the men and any building that those men would have

8 been standing against?

9 A. No, I marked with an "X" the building, not the building but a kiosk,

10 but the kiosk is not so big as this "X", it was wider, so that five

11 men could fit there as I saw them, as I saw them standing there.

12 Q. Very well. If that is your evidence that you marked with an "X"

13 where the kiosk was, have you put Borovnica and Tadic on the Kalate

14 side of the kiosk rather than on the Marsala Tita Street side of the

15 kiosk?

16 A. Not towards Marsala Tita Street, but in that direction, but not down

17 the Kalate road but, rather, on the corner as we come down and where

18 the corner to Kalate is. It was perhaps two or three metres from the

19 corner, I could not say exactly, is where the kiosk was, and by the

20 kiosk where Karabasic is and Borovnica was standing behind Ekrem, and

21 Dusko was a metre, a metre and a half, further on. Nobody could make

22 that estimate where it is marked.

23 Q. Did Borovnica have his back to you?

24 A. When I saw, as he was frisking a criminal, whatever, he was looking

25 for something, I do not know what it was. Yes, he was, then he turned

1 away because he was not standing still in one place.

2 Q. But for a period of time Borovnica had his back to you?

3 A. When I saw him, yes, he had his back to me, the first time I looked

4 at him, yes.

5 Q. Was there any other activity towards those men leaning up against the

6 kiosk that you could see?

7 A. Would you please repeat the question?

8 Q. Was there any other activity, other than the searching of Ekrem Alic,

9 by Borovnica?

10 A. Yes, he straightened up and struck him with the rifle. I could not

11 see whether he hit him in the head or the shoulder. I could not see

12 that, but I saw him strike at him with his rifle, with his rifle butt.

13 Q. When you say "him", you mean Borovnica struck Alic with his rifle

14 butt?

15 A. Not Alic, there was no Alic -- Ekrem Karabasic.

16 Q. My mistake. I am sorry. My mistake. But it was Borovnica who did

17 the hitting?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You said that four of the men were taken down the street towards the

20 old tower?

21 A. No, I said that I saw Sejdo Karabasic, Redzep Foric and this one

22 about whose name I am not certain, I saw him crossing to the left in

23 the direction of Kula. They crossed to the left from the kiosk when

24 the column was -- came to a halt.

25 Q. So how many men were taken from that position of the kiosk towards

1 the old tower?

2 A. I could not tell you exactly how many, but I saw these three persons

3 clearly behind the child. As I raised my child to hide my face, I was

4 looking leftward and I saw clearly those three.

5 Q. Until you saw those men being taken in that direction, had you seen

6 any other activity in relation to the men by the kiosk?

7 A. Would you please repeat the question? I was coughing and could not

8 understand all.

9 Q. Until you saw those men being taken towards the old tower, had you

10 seen any other activity that you have not told us about that occurred

11 to those men leaning against the kiosk?

12 A. I do not know what you want me to do.

13 Q. I am just asking you, sir, to tell us, if you can, what you saw.

14 A. I did not see why -- I did not see, I cannot say.

15 Q. So the time that you were moving down Marsala Tita Street, the man

16 you say was Tadic had his back to you?

17 A. Would you please repeat the question?

18 Q. At the time that you were moving down Marsala Tita Street, the man

19 you say was Tadic had his back to you?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Well, what was he doing then?

22 A. When I saw him by the well he was standing, he was facing the column

23 and he was looking up and down, I mean, towards the column, so it is

24 quite clear that he was facing towards us and not that he had his back

25 to me.

1 Q. He was not concerned or doing anything with the men leaning against

2 the wall?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Just to make it clear, you see, what I suggest to you is that you did

5 not see Dusko Tadic here on that Wednesday afternoon.

6 A. I am really sorry, but I said clearly that Dusko Tadic was standing

7 there on the corner behind Goran Borovnica with Gajic where I saw him.

8 It cannot be that I did not see him.

9 Q. Even allowing for this possibility that if you did see someone that

10 you were mistaken that it was Dusko Tadic?

11 A. I can -- it will be the same mistake as if I said today that I was

12 not here. If somebody said that I was not here today, it would be the

13 same kind of mistake that I could make with regard to my statement.

14 Q. Did you make a mistake then in putting the positions of the people on

15 this plan?

16 A. No.

17 MR. KAY: Thank you very much. Your Honour, that is a convenient moment

18 for the afternoon adjournment.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Have you completed cross-examination?

20 MR. KAY: I have not no, your Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess then for 20 minutes.

22 (4.00 p.m.)

23 (The court adjourned for a short time)

24 (4.30 p.m.)

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, would you like to continue, please?

1 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour. In the short adjournment we set up one of the

2 visual aids for this section of the questioning of the witness --

3 hopefully, it will work.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It is the first time I have seen it.

5 MR. KAY (To the witness): Mr. Mujcic, I now want to ask you some

6 questions about Omarska and, in particular, the day of 18th June that

7 you gave evidence about earlier this afternoon. One thing was not

8 clear to me, but were you telling the court that on that same day you

9 were beaten by a man called Kovocka?

10 A. I cannot hear very well.

11 Q. Perhaps your volume needs to be adjusted?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. Perhaps the interpreters will say something to you to see if it is

14 coming through?

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The second time you spoke he said "yes".

16 MR. KAY: I am asking you questions about 18th June and you told the court

17 that on that day a man called Kvocka beat you; is that right?

18 A. That is right, that I was beaten on that day by Kvocka.

19 Q. Is that a man whose name is spelt K-O-V-O-C-K-A?

20 A. Kvochka, K-V-O-C-H-K-A.

21 Q. Was he the Deputy Commander of Omarska camp at that time?

22 A. I do not know that.

23 Q. Was he an interrogator or was he an ordinary guard?

24 A. He was a guard and he was dressed in a policeman's uniform.

25 Q. Can you recollect what time of the day it was that he beat you?

1 A. I cannot remember what time of the day it was.

2 Q. Did he beat you as part of an interrogation or was it an assault upon

3 you in other circumstances?

4 A. He took me out into the toilet area. I do not know why he beat me,

5 but he did beat me and he did that several times prior to that.

6 Q. On that day were you in a room on the ground floor of the hangar of

7 the camp?

8 A. Can you please repeat the question because the sounds are not very

9 clear so I did not understand?

10 Q. On that day were you in the ground floor of the large hangar where

11 the dumper trucks were kept?

12 A. That was a room where I lived which was on the ground floor, and you

13 would get to their room by passing by through the garage where the

14 trucks and other vehicles were repaired.

15 Q. On the day that you say that Emir Karabasic was called out of the

16 room, were the hangar doors open or closed?

17 A. The door to the room were closed at the time when Emir Karabasic was

18 called out. This is not a hangar; it is a room where we were living

19 at that time.

20 Q. You see before you, Mr. Mujcic, a model of the camp at Omarska. What

21 I would like to do now is for you to have an opportunity to look at

22 that model and indicate to the court which room you were staying in.

23 Perhaps if someone could take the roof off the main building that

24 might help the witness? Thank you very much, Miss Sutherland.

25 THE WITNESS: Can I get up to see better because I cannot see very well

1 from where I am?

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, you may. I do not know you need both of your

3 microphones on. If we have four on, the sound really becomes very

4 low. Did you have both microphones on for a reason, Mr. Niemann? If

5 he needs it, that is fine.

6 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may stand up, sir, and when you do just make

8 sure you are talking through the microphone.

9 MR. KAY: We will take it in stages, but there the main building which we

10 call in this court the "hangar" is before you with the roof lifted

11 off. Can you see that?

12 A. I can see.

13 Q. Was it in that room that the dumper trucks were placed?

14 A. I cannot see from the inside because I am facing the other side of

15 the building.

16 Q. I had hoped that if we pressed a button that this camera here would

17 be able to show us on our screens the building itself.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The witness said he cannot see from standing over

19 there in any case. So the question is, how do we solve that problem?

20 He can come around this side, I suppose, then he will be without a

21 microphone, but he might be able to follow your question and then

22 return to the witness stand.

23 MR. KAY: Yes. What I am trying to do is orientate you with this

24 building, Mr. Mujcic. Do you understand?

25 A. I understand.

1 Q. Perhaps if you looked at -- the screen keeps on changing.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you want him to use a pointer? Do you want him

3 to use a pointer?

4 MR. KAY: That might help, your Honour, yes. (To the witness): Can you

5 look at your screen? Can you see there the inside of the hangar, Mr.

6 Mujcic?

7 A. It is hard to tell because it .....

8 JUDGE STEPHEN: Why do you not invite him to walk around?

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: He can move. Let us not make it difficult, let us

10 make it easy, OK, if you want an answer? Do you want him to point out

11 where he was; if so, he may remove himself from the seat and come over

12 and point to it.

13 MR. KAY: That was going to be the next stage, your Honour, after I had

14 tried everything else. (To the witness): Sir, if you take your

15 headphones off and if you would like to move round to the well of the

16 court -----

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger? Just a minute, Mr. Kay.

18 MR. TIEGER: Very quickly, your Honour; we are advised by the technical

19 people that at some point, if the court deems necessary or counsel

20 deems necessary, the camera can be adjusted somewhat to zoom in or

21 out. I just wanted to advise the court. I have no suggestions to

22 offer.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sometimes I call Gert Jan Stephen Spielberg, but

24 this is really not a movie production. It is really very simple. We

25 are all very together here in a very small courtroom and it is easy

1 for the witness to move if you want an answer to your question. OK?

2 MR. KAY: Yes.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Come around, Mr. Mujcic, please?

4 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, when the witness is around here, he understands

5 a little bit of English, as I understand, but if he is given

6 instructions without his headphones he may not understand what the

7 instructions are.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Ask him the question when he is standing there so he

9 can hear your question. He will move around, point and answer your

10 question and then go back and repeat in English any Serbo-Croatian

11 that he may wish to say.

12 MR. KAY (To the witness): Perhaps if you could put your headphones back

13 on, sir, and I apologise for the inconvenience that is taking place.

14 What I would like you to do is to go round and look at that model and

15 to identify which room you would have been staying in on the day that

16 Karabasic was called out. To do that, you will need to take your

17 headphones off and walk around and look at the model yourself and then

18 come back to your seat. Perhaps Miss Sutherland could take off the

19 other lid as well? Thank you.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you understand, Mr. Mujcic?

21 THE WITNESS: I understand.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Very good. Take your headphones off and come

23 around and point to the room.

24 MR. KAY: Can the top floor be taken off as well?

25 A. The entrance is here (Indicated), and here you go to the right. I

1 cannot remember which are the doors to the toilet, but I see a glass

2 door here, which are marked by glass, and somewhere here were the

3 metal doors and this room is marked like this, as indicated here. I

4 was sitting here by the door, by the little door, leaning against the

5 wall.

6 Q. Can you give the number?

7 A. 17 was the number of the room.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is what number, the number of the room -- put

10 your earphones on, Mr. Mujcic -- the number of the room that what?

11 MR. KAY: Is that the ----

12 THE WITNESS: The way it is marked there, this is how the room in which I

13 was looked because it had the long corridor, but the door does not

14 look exactly the way it looked in my room, because those were large

15 metal doors and then after that there was a small door through which

16 we entered.

17 MR. KAY: In that room was there also Emir Karabasic?

18 A. Yes. At that time when he was called out he was sitting at the table

19 to the left from the door next to the wall, and closer to the corner

20 in the back side of the room.

21 Q. The door to that room is a metal door; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Before the name was called out the guard opened that door?

24 A. Before saying anything, the door was opened and then the guard called

25 out the name of Emir Karabasic.

1 Q. Can you tell us how many other people were in that room with you?

2 A. The room was full. It was completely full.

3 Q. Besides people being in the room, were there any other implements,

4 benches, tools?

5 A. To the left as soon as the door was open there was a plank that

6 looked like a bench and this is where people sat down. People that

7 were beaten, we would normally let them lie down on that plank; and in

8 this corner to the left is a bit cut in and there was another table, a

9 metal table. The top of the table was metal. I do not remember

10 exactly what colour it was. People sat on that table and sat below

11 that table, under the table; and then further on, closer to the end of

12 the wall, maybe a metre, one metre or a metre and a half from the

13 wall, there was another table on which people also sat and at that

14 time, exactly at that time, Emir Karabasic was on that table and under

15 the table there were other people.

16 Q. The light into that room came from where?

17 A. The light came from the window, from the door.

18 Q. The windows at the back of the room do not come all the way down to

19 the floor?

20 A. No.

21 Q. They occupy an area at the top of the wall; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you remember what sort of size those windows were?

24 A. Those were not large windows, and I could not tell you how high they

25 were, maybe half a metre or a bit less than that, and they were -- in

1 the left corner underneath the window there was a trunk, a small

2 trunk, about this size.

3 Q. The door that you told us about was set in a big metal panel; is that

4 right?

5 A. Those were the doors that could be -- that were large and then within

6 those large doors there were smaller doors and maybe they were about

7 one metre wide, the smaller doors, and sometimes they would use the

8 larger doors, sometimes they would use the smaller doors.

9 Q. On this day when the guard opened the door, would it be right to say

10 that he opened the small door?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. That small door opened into the big hangar where the dumper trucks

13 for the mine were stored; is that right?

14 A. Yes, they would open towards the trucks, to the outside.

15 Q. The doors to the hangar where the trucks drove into the garage were

16 closed; is that right?

17 A. I cannot remember whether those doors in front, if you mean these

18 doors that are marked white, I do not remember if they were open or

19 closed but they were mostly closed.

20 Q. Yes, that is right. The doors I am referring to are the rolling

21 doors that are white on the model.

22 A. Yes, those doors are mostly closed, those doors in front, the white

23 doors that could be raised.

24 Q. You also said that Jasko Hrnic was called out?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Was he in the same room?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you remember whereabouts in that room he was when he was called

4 out?

5 A. With Karabasic -- he was sitting with Karabasic out at the table, on

6 the table.

7 Q. At that time were there any other people called out from that room?

8 A. As far as I know, not, not from that room in which I was and in which

9 Emir Karabasic and Jasko Hrnic were.

10 Q. When those two men went out you said that you heard bad language and

11 screaming. Was that soon after they had left your room?

12 A. No, for a while there was silence. It was such a silence that I

13 cannot even describe it. Then after a certain time we heard that

14 language and then after that we heard moaning.

15 Q. Whereabouts were you in that room?

16 A. I was next to the door. I was leaning against the big metal door

17 next to the small door. I was ordered to stand there.

18 Q. You had been standing there for how long?

19 A. I would crouch down or straighten up and stand there, but I had to be

20 there because this is what I had been ordered a few days before that.

21 Q. So had you been standing in that position for a very long time?

22 A. What do you mean? At that time, the first time when they were called

23 out I was standing, I was -- I was sitting and I had my back against

24 the door. I was not standing at that time. I was sitting.

25 Q. It may be my fault but it is not clear to me whether you are standing

1 or sitting when the door was opened.

2 A. The first time when the guard came in to fetch Emir I was sitting and

3 I was leaning against the large metal doors next to the small doors.

4 Q. When Jasko Hrnic was called out, whereabouts were you then?

5 A. At the same spot.

6 Q. So that would still be sitting and leaning against the wall; is that

7 right?

8 A. I think that I also, after Emir came out I crouched down and I

9 remained there because I always was at that spot. I was not allowed

10 to move away from there and I remained at that spot even after Jasko

11 went out next to the door, but I cannot remember if I was crouching

12 when Jasko came out or whether I was sitting at that moment.

13 Q. Can you remember whether the small door opened into the room where

14 you were or into the hangar area?

15 A. The small doors opens outward towards the hangar, not into the room.

16 Q. When you say you were leaning against the wall when you were sitting

17 down -----

18 A. Not against the wall, not against the wall, but the big metal door.

19 Q. Was the metal door against your back or against your side?

20 A. The metal door could not be to the side of me if I was leaning

21 against the big metal door.

22 Q. As the door opened out, whereabouts in relation to the door as it

23 opened were you sitting or crouching?

24 A. The first time the door opened I was sitting, I think, and the next

25 time I was either sitting or crouching, I am not sure.

1 Q. So as that door opened out into the hangar, were you on the hinges

2 side of the door or where the door handle and the lock would have

3 been?

4 A. As far as I can remember, the door opened outward. It opened towards

5 the lower part of the hangar, rather than towards the toilet. I

6 remember that. I remember I was sitting where the handle is, where

7 the door opens. I am not positive about that, but I think I remember

8 that. A long time has elapsed since and one has lost so much since

9 and forgotten, and I do not want to remember those terrible events I

10 went through there.

11 Q. Was it frightening for you every time a guard opened the door to that

12 room?

13 A. Yes, it was frightening, very.

14 Q. You were sitting down or crouching and on this occasion you would

15 have been looking up to the guard who had opened the door; is that

16 right?

17 A. This is when the door opens, you turn and look at who is at the door

18 and why it is being opened. I cannot look straight toward the door

19 if I am leaning with my back against the big metal door.

20 Q. That is right, you looked at the man who opened the door?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you remember his name?

23 A. The guard's?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. Him you mean?

1 Q. Yes, the name of the guard who opened the door.

2 A. No, I cannot.

3 Q. What I suggest to you is that you did not see Dusko Tadic standing

4 behind that guard?

5 A. You cannot say that I did not see him when I did see him and I

6 guarantee this with my life.

7 Q. After Omarska you went to Manjaca, is that right?

8 A. After the end in Omarska camp I went to Manjaca.

9 Q. Did you discuss with other people what they said had taken place in

10 the Omarska camp to Emir Karabasic?

11 A. I do not know whom you mean?

12 Q. Just with others generally, did you discuss what happened?

13 A. Well, they always talked about difficulties, about sufferings. I was

14 not alone there or Emir Karabasic and I only. There were thousands of

15 people who were in prison there.

16 Q. You have said that Dusko Tadic was there behind the guard when the

17 door was opened because others have told you that he was there?

18 A. Please, you cannot say that I heard it from others when I saw it with

19 my own eyes and suffered so much in that room, tortures and beatings.

20 Q. But you were sitting down or crouching down looking up at a guard who

21 opened the door. The room behind you cannot say had the doors open?

22 A. You are asking me unreasonable questions, because I said it and I

23 stand by it where I was leaning against the metal door and that the

24 door opened towards the garage, and when the door opened I looked over

25 my shoulder, through the door at what was going on and it was not

1 different, because I was by the door and nothing else could have

2 happened.

3 Q. Did you hear Eno Alic's name being called out by the guards later on?

4 A. When Jasmin Hrnic went out it took a long time, I do not know how

5 long it seemed to me, it was long. I heard the guard, whoever it was,

6 call out Eno Alic.

7 Q. Eno Alic was not in your room, is that right?

8 A. It is true that Eno Alic was not with me in my room.

9 Q. Did the guard call out the name of Eno Alic into your room?

10 A. The guard never opened the door in my room, nor said anything about

11 my room. We only heard a voice calling out to Eno Alic.

12 Q. That was something that you heard rather than someone telling you

13 that Eno Alic had been called out as well; is that right?

14 A. Nobody told me anything. I heard it and many others who were in that

15 same room with me.

16 Q. Again, you have said that you saw Dusko Tadic in Omarska camp on

17 another occasion, do you recollect?

18 A. I recollect seeing him one day when we were going to have lunch. He

19 was coming from the direction of the kitchen towards a part of the

20 house and the entrance, where the entrance and exit door was.

21 Q. Was that before or after the incident on 18th June?

22 A. It was after that incident.

23 Q. Perhaps you can help me as to how you know it was 18th June that an

24 incident concerning Emir Karabasic happened?

25 A. I was severely beaten up on that day and I remember it only too well.

1 Q. What I am interested in is how you knew with such certainty that it

2 was the date of 18th June? Did you have a calendar with you?

3 A. No, I did not have a calendar, but I am positive 18th June was that

4 day because for the past two or three days they had beaten me

5 terribly, and so it is carved in my memory. I shall never forget 18th

6 June.

7 Q. Do you remember me asking you questions earlier this afternoon about

8 the dates of the attack on Kozarac, and you told me that you could not

9 give any date; all you knew was that it took place place on a Sunday

10 and when you went into Kozarac it was a Wednesday?

11 A. We were returning -- as a matter of fact, as we were going towards

12 Kozarac from Vidovici I know it was a Wednesday. I do not remember

13 the date. I gave nothing -- I did not identify any day except that

14 Wednesday when we were coming down to Kozarac from Vidovici. As far

15 as I can remember, I never mentioned any Sunday.

16 Q. All I am interested in is how you give this date of 18th June. Did

17 you have a calendar with you?

18 A. I did not have a calendar with me, but whilst I was in the camp I

19 enquired about that day because that Kvocka had really beaten me that

20 day. I still feel pain in my back which is permanently damaged. My

21 head was broken many times, not once. My leg was injured.

22 Q. Perhaps you can help me, if you can, who gave you then the date of

23 18th June and told you, "Today is 18th June"?

24 A. I do not remember who told me, but many people said, yes, it was 18th

25 and who was it. They were all friends who were in prison together

1 with me in that room.

2 Q. Or did anyone a long while after Emir Karabasic was called out of

3 room 17 tell you what happened and told you the date of 18th June?

4 A. Nobody had to tell me what happened. The news spread immediately the

5 next day what had happened to Emir Karabasic when we went to the

6 toilet, and it was not Emir Karabasic which related to that date. I

7 remember the date that was related to me personally and I remembered

8 it only too well.

9 Q. That is right, the news spread and there was a lot of talk about it

10 amongst the people in the camp; is that right?

11 A. The news spread if anything was learnt but what you hear with your

12 own ears and see with your own eyes, then it is only natural that you

13 do not need anyone to tell you something or anything about it.

14 Q. Because what I suggest to you is that you did not see Dusko Tadic at

15 Omarska on that day or the other day that you have told this court?

16 A. On the basis of what do you tell me that I had not seen him?

17 Q. I am putting the assertion to you, as I am required to do, for you to

18 accept or deny.

19 A. No, I did not say that I had not seen Dusko Tadic the first time in

20 the door or the second time on the pista. I said that I had seen him

21 and I give you my word. With my guarantee with my life in 10 years,

22 in 15 years time I shall give you the same answer.

23 Q. Do you know Miso Damicic?

24 A. You mean Miso Danicin?

25 Q. No.

1 A. Miso Daanicic, no, I cannot.

2 MR. KAY: Thank you. I have no further questions.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, do you have redirect?

4 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour.

5 Re-examined by Mr. Niemann.

6 Q. Mr. Mujcic, you were just asked some questions about knowing about

7 18th June 1992. Do you recall an event on 16th June 1992 when some

8 biscuits were shared by Hrnic with you and other inmates?

9 A. I remember it very well.

10 Q. Was there something about this incident that informed you of the date

11 at that particular time? If so, can you tell us what it was?

12 MR. KAY: Can I just raise an objection here, your Honour, because my

13 learned friend, as I see it, is leading with dates and asking the

14 witness to agree them rather than have the witness's testimony upon

15 the dates which, in our submission, may be material to assess the

16 reliability of recollection and, indeed, whether witnesses have heard

17 by rumour or otherwise about what took place in Omarska on a

18 particular date. I do make this objection on the basis that if dates

19 are to be led to witnesses in this form, our submission is that the

20 court is not assisted by assessing the reliability of the witness when

21 it is not the witness's own testimony.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?

23 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, the date of 18th June ----

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Just the question. The objection is that it is

25 leading. Do you remember if you were given biscuits, shared some

1 biscuits on June 18th I think was the question?

2 MR. NIEMANN: I hope I did not say June 18th, your Honour.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 16th sorry. You said 18th I guess, Mr. Kay, did you,

4 and I believed you or may be not. Anyway ----

5 MR. NIEMANN: If my friend insists on me doing it the long way I will do

6 it the long way.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: At this point it really does not make difference. I

8 do not want to sustain the objection because we have indicated that

9 our Rules are typically very liberal and that our concern is whether

10 or not the evidence is probative. You are saying it is not probative

11 because it is leading. I will sustain the objection because it does

12 not make any difference. You can rephrase the question and ask him if

13 he remembers sharing biscuits and, if so, on what date.

14 MR. NIEMANN: I will do that, your Honour. Mr. Mujcic, during the period

15 of time when you were in Omarska camp do you recall an incident

16 whereby you shared biscuits with other inmates in the camp?

17 A. I remember it very well. Jasmin Hrnic mentioned a birthday, his

18 child's birthday, although there were very many of us, and from

19 somewhere somebody had brought a box of biscuits and he offered as

20 much as he could. Some were given a half or a quarter of a biscuit,

21 but those near him were all given something. We remembered it and I

22 personally have it imprinted on my memory this piece of cake. I have

23 never tasted anything as delicious as that biscuit, even though it was

24 a tiny bit but it was a great deal for me.

25 Q. On the day you were eating this biscuit and there was reference to

1 the fact that it was Hrnic's child's birthday, did the question of the

2 date of that particular day arise?

3 A. Jasko said, I remember it was 16th very well, he said that it was the

4 birthday, but about the date, did he say "today"? "I could not see

5 that child. I am offering you this for the sake of his birthday", but

6 whether it was the same day, the birthday of Jasmin's child, but I

7 remember he mentioned that those biscuits were intended for his

8 child's birthday, that those were the biscuits for his child's

9 birthday.

10 Q. Do you recall how many days after this particular day the event

11 occurred where you said in your evidence you saw Dusko Tadic at

12 Omarska camp in the large hangar?

13 A. Two days later after that biscuit.

14 Q. Thank you. You were also asked a question about the position that

15 you took in the column, and in your evidence-in-chief you had said

16 that when you were walking by the old school: " ... I came closer to

17 the well because I was at the end of the column." The use of the word

18 "end" in that context when you were talking about your position, did

19 you mean the end of the column in the sense of the final part of the

20 column or the end of the column meaning the edge of the column closest

21 to the well?

22 A. The edge of the column closest to the well, not in front of the

23 column or in the end of the column or somewhere in the middle, but to

24 the side, at the edge of the column near the well.

25 Q. Might the witness now be shown Exhibit 223? Mr. Kay asked you some

1 questions -- and perhaps if you could put it on the overhead projector

2 and if that could be activated, please -- you were asked some

3 questions about where Mr. Tadic was, where Mr. Borovnica was and where

4 the men were that were standing up against the wall with their hands

5 against the wall of the kiosk. Would you please take the pen that is

6 there and in as big a size as you possibly can, would you please draw

7 the kiosk itself and indicate where it was that these men were

8 actually standing?

9 A. Do you want me to draw it on this sheet of paper or another one?

10 Q. No, I want you to ----

11 A. Because this was in reverse.

12 Q. Yes. If you draw it on this sheet of paper, if you can, draw where

13 the cabin was and the wall against which the men were standing, if you

14 can do that?

15 A. (The witness marked on the plan). This will look very small, so that

16 I will only mark it with dots and I will draw the kiosk.

17 Q. OK. Could you mark with dots the places where the five men were

18 standing? I realise they have to be rather small dots.

19 A. Yes, I can. (The witness marked on the plan).

20 Q. Thank you. That is fine. You are marking where other men were

21 standing there as well now. Those are the couple of marks that you

22 put there, that are the men that were standing there at the time?

23 A. This dot here, the first one, that is roughly where Dusko Tadic stood

24 and Gajic here and Borovnica was standing here behind those men.

25 Q. When we showed you the video earlier today we saw in the video a

1 wooden style cabin or a wooden style building on the corner. Was that

2 building there at the time when you saw Dusko Tadic back in May 1992,

3 or do you assume that it has been subsequently put in that place?

4 A. That shed did not exist there before and how it got there I do not

5 know, but all I know I was born there. I always passed that way. I

6 was doing my shopping there and whatever I needed and did not need.

7 That shed which is on the video, because the video is of very poor

8 quality, but when I looked at how it was positioned and it was not

9 positioned at all in the direction where the kiosks were, is far to

10 the right toward Kalate and not down Kozarac, down the high street

11 where the kiosks were.

12 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. I have no further questions.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

14 MR. KAY: Nothing arising, thank you.

15 JUDGE VOHRAH: Mr. Mujcic, for completeness of the record, in what year

16 were you born?

17 A. I was born on 20th April 1954.

18 Q. You mentioned that the biscuits were distributed on the 16th. How did

19 you know that that was 16th, the day when the biscuits were

20 distributed?

21 A. Because when this Jasko distributed those biscuits he mentioned the

22 birthday of his child. He uttered the word, "16th, today is the

23 16th", and, according to him, it was dedicated to his child and he

24 said it was on behalf of his child who had his birthday that day, and

25 that he was distributing, offering those biscuits on his child's

1 birthday, and he told us that the 16th was, that that date was the

2 16th.

3 Q. Yes. My question is how did he know that that particular day was the

4 16th?

5 A. I do not know that, how did he know that that day was the 16th.

6 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, do you have additional questions?

8 MR. NIEMANN: No thank you, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

10 MR. KAY: No thank you, your Honour.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mr. Mujcic being

12 permanently excused?

13 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You are permanently excused, Mr. Mujcic. Thank you

15 for coming. You may leave now. Is there something else you wish to

16 bring to our attention?

17 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will adjourn until 10 a.m.

19 (The hearing adjourned until the following day)

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