Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4419




4 Wednesday, 31st July 1996

5 (10.00 a.m.)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, Mr. Tieger, Miss Hollis, who will call

7 the next witness?

8 MR. TIEGER: Good morning, your Honour. Thank you. The next witness is

9 Sakib Sivac.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Before you call the next witness, Judge Stephen

11 would like to raise something.

12 JUDGE STEPHEN: It relates to the last witness or was he the second last,

13 I think, Ermin Strikovic. This may be simply typographical, I do not

14 know, but I see on the names of witnesses that he is said to be

15 involved with counts 1 and 15 to 17. 15 to 17 deals with somebody

16 called, amongst others, Sejad Sivac.

17 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.

18 JUDGE STEPHEN: All through the transcript where reference is made to a

19 Sivac, he is shown as S-E-A-D Sivac, whereas in the indictment it is

20 S-E-J-A-D. Is that said to be the same person?

21 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. I believe it is a matter of how you write

22 the name because if it is written as it would, perhaps, be pronounced,

23 the J is often pronounced as a Y, so Sead or S-E-A-D without the J.

24 It is meant to be the same person, your Honour.

25 JUDGE STEPHEN: Because I see that he was asked, "Again the first name of

Page 4420

1 your friend was what?" and he repeats it.

2 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.

3 JUDGE STEPHEN: But it is shown as S-E-A-D.

4 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. It is a matter of how it is written, I

5 believe. Different people write those names in different ways. We

6 meant it to be the same person. He is speaking of Sejad Sivac, the

7 veterinarian.

8 JUDGE STEPHEN: Mr. Kay, have you anything to say about this?

9 MR. KAY: That was something I understood to be the case, your Honour.

10 JUDGE STEPHEN: Yes, thank you.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, would you call Mr. Sivac?

12 MR. SAKIB SIVAC called.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you take the oath that is being handed to

14 you, please?

15 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

16 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

17 (The witness was sworn)

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

19 Examined by MR. TIEGER

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, you may begin.

21 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. Sir, will you state your name,

22 please?

23 A. Sakib Sivac.

24 Q. What is your date of birth?

25 A. 1st March 1959.

Page 4421

1 Q. Where were you born?

2 A. In Sivci.

3 Q. What is your nationality?

4 A. Muslim.

5 Q. Where did you attend school?

6 A. First four grades of elementary school in Trnopolje and the other

7 four in Kozarac, in Rade Kondic school.

8 Q. After finishing school, did you take a course to become a brick

9 mason?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In 1978 did you serve with the JNA?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Following your service with the JNA, did you work for approximately

14 two years in Slovenia and did you later work for about a year with a

15 firm that had work in Bosanski Novi and Croatia?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. During those periods of time you were working in those areas, did you

18 come home regularly on weekends to Sivci?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Mr. Sivac, in 1985 did you suffer a work related accident and retire

21 as a result?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. After that, with the exception of a few months working in Europe,

24 were you essentially continuously in Sivci until 1992?

25 A. Yes, all the time.

Page 4422

1 Q. Sir, as a result of your retirement, did you spend a great deal of

2 time in Kozarac?

3 A. Yes, all the time, almost all the time.

4 Q. Was that the main shopping area and cafe area for the people of

5 Sivci?

6 A. Yes, for us, for me and my village, yes, it was the principal area.

7 Q. Mr. Sivac, do you know Dule Tadic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How long have you known him?

10 A. I have known him since I attended school in Kozarac.

11 Q. Were the two of you friends or people who knew each other by sight?

12 A. Friends, no, by sight.

13 Q. Was there any particular reason why he might have been better known

14 to you than other people who were familiar to you in Kozarac?

15 A. In the beginning because of karate and then he had a coffee bar, like

16 many other people who were slightly better known in Kozarac.

17 Q. When you and Mr. Tadic passed each other in the street, would you

18 acknowledge each other?

19 A. Yes, we would nod.

20 Q. Was it a common occurrence for you to see him in Kozarac?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you have any personal dealings with him?

23 A. Yes, once my brother was to work for him, one had to go for -- to

24 bring along some carpentry items, one had to go to Ljubljana and later

25 and I was there when they were discussing it, but it did not get the

Page 4423

1 deal and they did not go. Then my brother asked for his work book and

2 he returned him and then he asked for it, and then he went with his

3 employment book to the company that he used to work before.

4 Q. Did you sometimes see Dule Tadic with a beard?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you sometimes see him ----

7 A. Many times he often wore a beard.

8 Q. Did you sometimes see him without a beard?

9 A. Yes, that without a beard and with a beard.

10 Q. Were you familiar with his appearance both with and without a beard

11 then?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Mr. Sivac, were you in Sivci when the attack on Kozarac began on May

14 24th?

15 A. Yes, I was in Sivci.

16 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, may this map be marked for identification as

17 Exhibit 281 for identification, please? We also have three copies for

18 the Court. Mr. Sivac, do you recognise that map as depicting ----

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. --- the area of Sivci in relationship to Kozarac and Trnopolje?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender 281 for admission and ask that it

23 be placed on the screen.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

25 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

Page 4424

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 281 will be admitted.

2 MR. TIEGER: Can we first pan back a bit and show as much of the entire

3 area as we can? Thank you. First of all, Mr. Sivac, can you point to

4 where Kozarac is located on this map?

5 A. Kozarac is here. Here.

6 Q. Can you point to where Trnopolje is located?

7 A. Trnopolje is here.

8 Q. Can you show us now where Sivci is located?

9 A. That is where Sivci is, here.

10 Q. Mr. Sivac, can you show us where the hamlet of Jaskici was located?

11 A. Jaskici is to the right of Sivci here.

12 Q. Thank you, sir. Your Honour, I would like to have this map or

13 diagram marked as Exhibit 282 for identification, please? Mr. Sivac,

14 do you recognise this as a diagram or map which you put together?

15 A. Yes, I recognise it.

16 Q. Is that of the Sivci area?

17 A. It is. This is the area covering all buildings in Sivci.

18 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender 282.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

20 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 282 will be admitted.

22 MR. TIEGER: May 282 be placed on the screen, please? Mr. Sivac, did you

23 make this map or diagram from memory?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was a computer used to help make it?

Page 4425

1 A. Yes, I was explaining to my brother's son. He was working on the

2 computer and he was moving it up and down. I was drawing and then he

3 fed it into the computer.

4 Q. He was the one with the computer skills?

5 A. Yes, he likes doing that. He is young.

6 Q. Is this map intended to be perfectly to scale or roughly to scale?

7 A. Well, perhaps not 100 per cent, but it is -- all of it is as it is

8 there, I think.

9 Q. OK. Is it possible that a couple of houses which were located there

10 might not be shown?

11 A. I believe that all the houses are here.

12 Q. Looking at the bottom left of the diagram ----

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. --- is that an area of tiny houses or did you run out of room at the

15 bottom of the page and have to cram it together?

16 A. Yes, there was no room simply there, identical houses as those ones

17 up there. There were simply no room on this sheet of paper and that

18 is why they are so crammed.

19 Q. At the right bottom portion of the map or diagram, that is a portion

20 which was entered by hand rather than with a computer?

21 A. Yes, I added this because again it would not fit and this is a

22 continuation of this main road.

23 Q. I note that there are numbers on the houses. Were those numbers for

24 the purpose of noting how many houses there were in Sivci?

25 A. I drew it simply to count them, to see how many there used to be.

Page 4426

1 Q. Is there a small river that runs through the area of Sivci?

2 A. Yes, this was called Jaruga and it is here and it flows here, but

3 this was not drawn. We started drawing and then stopped.

4 Q. Was it a bit too difficult to put in with the computer because of the

5 bends and twists of the river?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. Mr. Sivac, if I could just ask you about a couple of locations on

8 this map? First of all, can you show us where your home was located?

9 A. [The witness indicated on the plan] This is my house. 17, I think

10 it says.

11 Q. Did you have family living in the area?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did that include your father and brothers?

14 A. Yes, my father was across the way here and my brother and I was alone

15 here.

16 Q. Can you show us which is your father's house?

17 A. [The witness indicated on the plan] This here under 71.

18 Q. Your brother's home?

19 A. This is one, 70, 72, 72 and 73.

20 Q. OK. Thank you. Did your youngest brother live at home with your

21 father?

22 A. Yes, my youngest brother stayed to live with father. It was his

23 home.

24 Q. When the attack on Kozarac began on May 24th, were you able to hear

25 or see the shelling?

Page 4427

1 A. Yes, one could hear it very well and one could also see up the hills

2 above the Prijedor/Banja Luka road.

3 Q. How intensive was the shelling?

4 A. In the beginning it was continuous.

5 Q. In what areas did it appear to be concentrated?

6 A. Shells were mostly falling on the part of Kozarac, Kozarusa,

7 Jakovici, Brdjani. Some would also go astray and fall below the

8 asphalt.

9 Q. By the "asphalt" you mean the Prijedor/Banja Luka road?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Which separated the Kozarac area from the area where you live?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Mr. Sivac, let me ask you a few questions about the first two or

14 three days following the attack on Kozarac. Were the Muslim people of

15 the Sivci area instructed to surrender weapons?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. As far as you were aware, did everyone who had a weapon turn it in?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you see the weapons which were collected?

20 A. Yes, I, when they were bringing, here, on this road here, this is

21 where they were collecting it. There was a blanket there because

22 there were very few weapons so they put them on the blanket, and they

23 put them in the car and took it away. Osman Sivac and Hase Icic were

24 there.

25 Q. What kind of weapons did you see? What kind of weapons were

Page 4428

1 collected and how many?

2 A. I cannot remember the exact number. There were not many. There were

3 hunting rifles, pistols and there was one M48 rifle. That was my

4 neighbour's Nagib Sivac's. This is his home. He was a member of the

5 TO in Trnopolje.

6 Q. Sir, one question I did not ask you, can you tell us the ethnic

7 composition of the inhabitants of the area shown on the diagram you

8 made?

9 A. You mean Sivci?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. The majority, they all were Muslim with the exception of this house

12 here, No. 76. That was not a Muslim house. All the others were

13 Muslim households.

14 Q. Do you recall the nationality of the person who lived in the home

15 which you have indicated by No. 76? The home you were just talking

16 about, Mr. Sivac, what was the nationality of the person or persons

17 who lived there?

18 A. He was a Ukrainian, those who came from Russia, from Ukraine.

19 Q. Mr. Sivac, during the first two or three days following the attack on

20 Kozarac, did people from Sivci attempt to flee in the direction of

21 Kozarac to the forest during a lull in the shelling?

22 A. Yes, they tried to. The panic started. A column was formed and they

23 tried to head for the forest.

24 Q. About how large was that column?

25 A. The column was about a kilometre and a half long, tractor after

Page 4429

1 tractor after tractor, car after car after car -- very many women,

2 children, men.

3 Q. Did you join that column?

4 A. Yes, I was at the head of the column.

5 Q. Did the column reach the forest?

6 A. No, it did not. We reached in the village of Dergici, which is above

7 Sivci, and we stopped by the home of one Saban Dergic at the

8 cross-road because the shells were beginning to hit Dergici as well.

9 Q. After seeking shelter for a period of time, did the people who had

10 attempted to flee in the column return to their homes in Sivci?

11 A. We stayed up there. People ran for some shelter into bushes, into a

12 thicket. We stayed there for about two or three hours and then we all

13 turned back to Sivci.

14 Q. During the first two or three days following the attack, did refugees

15 from the area of Kozarac flee to Sivci?

16 A. Yes, we returned the same day but large groups of refugees began to

17 arrive the next day and the day after that. They talked about very

18 many dead in Kozarac and Jakovici and they were all frightened.

19 Q. About how many refugees from the area of Kozarac would you estimate

20 fled to Sivci at that time?

21 A. I cannot claim with any certainty, but there were about 4,000 to

22 5,000 people in Sivci then, all the houses, all the garages, all the

23 barns, everything was full, all the stables. I had 45 refugees in my

24 home and we were 50 altogether with my wife and children, and in my

25 old man's home, in my father's and other homes where the houses were

Page 4430

1 larger, there were up to 100 people.

2 Q. Mr. Sivac, were the men from the Sivci area eventually rounded up

3 and taken to camps?

4 A. Yes, they were caught on 14th June.

5 Q. Between the attack on Kozarac and 14th June, were Muslim men from

6 Sivci taken by Serb forces to collect bodies in the area of Kozarac?

7 A. Yes. Once a Serb soldier Zuna Radivojac came and ordered me to find

8 as many pairs of gloves as possible, and he assigned a group of guys

9 to load the dead with him in Jakovici so he returned with a truck, and

10 Hitko Foric told me they had loaded a number of bodies in decaying

11 state.

12 Q. During that same period of time between the attack on Kozarac and the

13 cleansing of Sivci on June 14th, was there shelling of the area or

14 coming from the area of Sivci?

15 A. I did not understand the question.

16 Q. Sure. During the period of time between the attack on Kozarac and

17 the cleansing of Sivci, was there any shelling of the Sivci area?

18 A. Yes, somewhere at the beginning of June, on 1st or 2nd, somewhere

19 around from my house there is a forest. You could hear the tanks and

20 you could clearly hear the sound of the engines, and there was

21 shelling and people jumped and started -- ran for shelter. The

22 children were screaming and it was horrible.

23 Q. Did any of the shells land near your home?

24 A. Not on the house, but it fell between my house and the house of my

25 relative, in between.

Page 4431

1 Q. Did you later see the tanks which had, apparently, been firing coming

2 down the main road through the Sivci area?

3 A. Yes. Then I left my house and went to the main road to see how my

4 family is. We were in the yard, maybe 50, up to 100 of us, a lot had

5 hidden in the houses, and two tanks came through very fast, a lot of

6 people on the tanks, raised three fingers and they went very fast.

7 Q. During the time before the cleansing, were the people of Sivci

8 ordered to stay within a certain area or forbidden to go to certain

9 areas?

10 A. Yes, the movement was limited. That Zuna Radivojac was often in

11 Sivci and said, "Whoever crosses the asphalt is going to be killed".

12 Some people crossed it and they never came back. They went for food.

13 Q. During that period of time did Serb forces come looking for

14 particular individuals?

15 A. Yes, often they were looking for someone. I know two cases when

16 people came to, when people showed up in the camps by themselves

17 because they said that if they did not show up that they would shell

18 Sivci.

19 Q. Was there any burning of homes or barns during that time?

20 A. Yes, there was one night, maybe around 10th June, maybe earlier, I do

21 not remember, they were burning houses and barns. The cows and horses

22 were on fire and the cows were moo-ing, and it was horrible. The

23 house next to me burned down.

24 Q. Mr. Sivac, what was it like at night for the people of Sivci during

25 this time?

Page 4432

1 A. Nights were the worst because Trnopolje was close and there was

2 shooting then at night. We had to sleep dressed and we had very

3 little food. There were people, two or three people, walking around

4 the house so that the house would not be torched.

5 Q. Why did people sleep dressed or why were they in their clothes at

6 night?

7 A. Because of fear, that we thought that they might be coming. We

8 expected them to come.

9 Q. On June 14th, where were you that day?

10 A. On June 14th I was at home with my wife and my wife's mother and

11 brother and my two children.

12 Q. You mentioned earlier that there had been approximately 45 refugees

13 at your home. Were they still there?

14 A. No, a day before that they went to the village Mujkanovici. They

15 found an open house and then the men were taken to Keraterm.

16 Q. You mentioned your wife's brother. Had he just come to your home

17 from Trnopolje camp?

18 A. Yes, he came from Omarska camp. He was too young. At that time they

19 were releasing the young ones. So my wife brought him over to come

20 and to get a bath and he was already -- he had already lost weight.

21 Q. Did he come directly from Omarska camp ----

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think that the interpreter who is speaking in

23 Serbo-Croat is speaking on Channel 4 because I am hearing you. Go

24 ahead, Mr. Tieger.

25 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. Your wife's brother, at the time he

Page 4433

1 came to your home, had he just come from Trnopolje camp or Omarska

2 camp?

3 A. From Trnopolje.

4 Q. During the previous days had she been attempting to get him food at

5 Trnopolje camp?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. On that day had she managed to get permission to bring him to your

8 home for that day in order to get him bathed and give him some food?

9 A. Yes, she managed to do that.

10 Q. As you were in your home with the family members you mentioned, did

11 you hear the sound of shooting?

12 A. Yes, that day the shooting started around 10 o'clock in the morning,

13 and the shooting was approaching. It was coming closer and closer.

14 Q. Did Serb forces come to your home?

15 A. Yes, they did.

16 Q. Did they come into your home?

17 A. Yes, I was sitting at home. I was drinking coffee, and suddenly I

18 think somebody kicked in the door, and he walked in with an automatic

19 rifle and asked who was the owner of the house and I said that it was

20 myself. This soldier -- it was a soldier -- he ordered me to take

21 him upstairs, walk in front of him, see if there are other men in the

22 house. We went upstairs to the top floor. We saw that there was

23 nobody there. He checked it. Then he made me lead him downstairs

24 again and then we went down to the hallway.

25 Q. When you came downstairs were other Serb soldiers or members of Serb

Page 4434

1 forces there?

2 A. Yes, when I came downstairs to the hallway two Serb soldiers were

3 standing in the hallway.

4 Q. What happened when you came downstairs? Did they say anything to you

5 or do anything to you?

6 A. One of the two who were standing tried to hit me and the one who was

7 behind him who held a rifle told him not to touch me.

8 Q. Did they order you outside?

9 A. Yes, they told me to get out into the yard.

10 Q. Did you or any member of your family ask what was going to be done

11 with you?

12 A. My wife came out and asked where they were taking me, and the one

13 with a beard who was there who led me out of the house said that we

14 had to walk in front of the tanks because the green berets are

15 shooting, and that we had to lead the column of tanks and then we

16 would come back home.

17 Q. So they told you you were to be used as a shield?

18 A. Yes, they said that we had to walk in front of the tanks and then he

19 said -- my wife said that I did not have any weapons, that nobody was

20 shooting. He said that, told her to shut up, that she did not know

21 where she was living and who she was living with.

22 Q. Mr. Sivac, once you were outside did the Serb soldiers ask you where

23 other Muslims could be found?

24 A. Yes, that one behind me with a beard, he asked me several times about

25 the houses of my two neighbours' houses, Osman Sivac and Munib Sivac,

Page 4435

1 and I sort of showed them to him.

2 Q. Outside did you see your neighbours in the area of the lane or road

3 on which your house is which leads to the main road?

4 A. Yes, I saw across from my neighbours this house here. [The witness

5 indicated on the plan] There were these young men from Jakupovici.

6 There were about 10 or 11 of them. They were made to walk in front

7 and they were beating them to walk to the road, and then when we came

8 out they asked me to join them.

9 Q. Mr. Sivac, I think when you were indicating the area of your house

10 and the direction in which those men were walking, the map was not on

11 the screen. I am going to ask to have that put on the screen so you

12 can indicate that area again. If you will wait just a moment? If you

13 could point that out again, sir, the area where your house is located

14 and the direction in which those neighbours were going?

15 A. [The witness indicated on the plan] This is my house here and the

16 one across is my neighbour's house, and here they drove out about 10,

17 11 young men. He had four sons. They were beating them and they were

18 hurting them, and it is a small distance between these two houses and

19 then they said to stand there with them.

20 Q. Where were you and the other people from the area immediately around

21 your house directed?

22 A. We were standing there and then suddenly there was an order "Hands

23 behind your backs", and I ran down towards the main road.

24 Q. Where did you end up?

25 A. We ran along this road straight towards the main road, and as we ran,

Page 4436

1 as parallel to the bridge here there was a tank and we came to stop

2 here in front of this house.

3 Q. How were you directed to hold your hands as you were running?

4 A. Always behind the head like this.

5 Q. Did you see other Serb forces coming toward the area?

6 A. Yes, I saw them in the fields. They were always in two's and

7 three's.

8 Q. Did you see Serb forces on the main road?

9 A. Yes, around the tank always, and there were a lot of them, a lot of

10 soldiers.

11 Q. Were they firing any weapons or was the tank firing?

12 A. A man on the tank had some big machine gun and he shot some and then

13 the rest of the soldiers were shooting constantly and cursing, "Catch

14 them alive". We who were in the yard here, we were just being herded

15 there and beaten.

16 Q. How long did you remain in the yard?

17 A. We stayed there for about 10 minutes.

18 Q. Did you see any other groups of Muslims coming down the main road?

19 A. Yes, one moment a group ran by along the main road in the direction

20 of Trnopolje and then they told us, "OK, run down the road and hold

21 your hands behind your heads", and then at one point an order came,

22 "Lie down". Then as we ran we had to lie down, and then we would run

23 for another few metres and then lie down again. Then they would beat

24 us and kick us again. They were pulling out wallets, IDs, money and

25 then they were throwing it away. As we kept running down, there were

Page 4437

1 more and more documents on the roadway.

2 Q. Where did the group eventually end up?

3 A. In the end the group arrived in the yard of Hamid Sivac.

4 Q. About how far away from where the path or road to your home meets the

5 main road was that?

6 A. About 150, 200 metres from the house where we started, from this

7 house down to about this one here, about 200 metres.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Could you ask the witness to point again?

9 MR. TIEGER: Yes. Mr. Sivac, can you point to the house of Hamid Sivac

10 where you stopped and tell us the number?

11 A. [The witness indicated on the plan] This is the house of Hamid

12 Sivac. It is marked as house 27.

13 Q. Approximately, how many times would you estimate you and the others

14 in your group were forced to lie down and then get up again as you

15 proceeded towards Hamid Sivac's house?

16 A. Myself and the group that was with me, maybe 20, 30 of us, I think,

17 had to get down on the ground at least 30, 40 times, lie down, get up,

18 run again, lie down and they kept beating us and kicking us.

19 Q. Were some people having more trouble with this process of lying down

20 and getting up and running and lying down again?

21 A. Yes, there were elderly people and there were also people who were

22 heavier, and the ones -- we, who were younger, it was easier on us and

23 it was more difficult on the others.

24 Q. What did the members of the Serb forces do to these people, these

25 older and heavier people, who were having trouble?

Page 4438

1 A. Also beat them, but they got more than the others, you know, kicks

2 and blows.

3 Q. When you reached Hamid Sivac's house, in what portion of the house

4 did you stop?

5 A. We entered the yard and the soldiers were around, and they were

6 already commandeering us into the yard.

7 Q. Approximately, how many Muslims were collected in Hamid Sivac's yard?

8 A. About 300, 350 Muslims were there in the yard. There were a few

9 Croats as well.

10 Q. What was the condition of many of the 300 to 350 people who were

11 gathered there?

12 A. They were in a bad condition. I think that no one escaped getting

13 something, some kind of a blow. There were a lot of people who were

14 blooded, and one of the Chetniks, the main one, ordered that we should

15 wash ourselves in the well -- there was a well in the yard -- so that

16 those who had blood on them would wash.

17 Q. About how many Serb forces were at Hamid Sivac's house?

18 A. In the yard not many, but around a lot, in the fields, behind barns,

19 behind houses.

20 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would like to show a portion of a video now

21 that I believe the technical people have ready.

22 (The video was shown)

23 Mr. Sivac, do you recognise what this depicts?

24 A. Yes, this is the store in Sivci. This is the road to Jaskici.

25 Q. Would you stop that, please? Can we back it up just a moment? That

Page 4439

1 is fine. The road that the vehicle is moving on now, the road

2 directly ahead, which road is that?

3 A. Yes, that is the road that comes from the direction of Kozarac and

4 going to Trnopolje.

5 Q. So we are now moving in the direction of Trnopolje?

6 A. Yes, it goes in the direction of Trnopolje.

7 Q. OK, on the main road between Kozarac and Trnopolje?

8 A. No, this is not the main road. The main road was paved. It had

9 asphalt. This one is going through the village of Dergici and also

10 ends up in the railroad station of Trnopolje. From the main road, it

11 splits off and it goes through the village of Kararici and ends up in

12 Trnopolje.

13 Q. The road which leads to the left goes where?

14 A. That road leads to the hamlet of Jaskici.

15 Q. If we could go forward, please? Mr. Sivac, are we as we proceed in

16 this direction moving toward the area of your house?

17 A. Yes, this is my oldest brother's house and then this is the second

18 brother's. This is my father's house, and this is my uncle's house.

19 Here, before this house the road splits off leading to my house.

20 Right here to the right, about 160 metres from the main road, this is

21 where they gathered us in front of this house.

22 Q. OK. So, off to the right of this road your home is approximately

23 150, 160 metres away, is that right?

24 A. Yes, from the main road off to the right past this house, that is

25 where my house was.

Page 4440

1 Q. OK. Can we proceed forward a little bit? Can we stop here, please?

2 A. It was a bridge that I take when I go home.

3 Q. If you turn right then at that little bridge and proceed up

4 approximately 150, 160 metres, that is where your house is, along that

5 path?

6 A. Yes, you go about 160 metres, you turn right and you are right in

7 front of my house. The road over to the left, that is where the

8 weapons were gathering, were being gathered that we had to turn over.

9 Q. Can we proceed forward just a little bit, please? Stop. Is this

10 house the closest house to the main road along your street?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do we see in this portion of the video the area where you and the

13 other men were gathered before you were ordered to march toward Hamid

14 Sivac's house?

15 A. First from my house, there were 12, 13 of us in front of this yard of

16 this house, and there were already 20 or 30 of us then. We stood

17 there and then when a group ran by, they ordered us to follow them.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is this house No. 15, Mr. Tieger?

19 THE WITNESS: I think it is.



22 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour. Can we go forward, please? Mr. Sivac, are

23 we now moving in the direction of Hamid Sivac's house where you were

24 stopped and collected with the other 350 people?

25 A. Yes, this is mekte (sic) in Sivci, this building.

Page 4441

1 Q. Stop here. Thank you. The building shown to the right, Mr. Sivac,

2 what is that?

3 A. It is like a mosque, it is mekte. It is where you get your religious

4 education.

5 Q. When you were marched in the way you described from the area of your

6 house to Hamid Sivac's house, did you notice whether or not the mekte

7 or mosque was burned?

8 A. No, at that time it was not burned, only after I left Keraterm and

9 went back home to Sivci, that is when I saw that it had been burned.

10 From Trnopolje, we went with the Serb soldier as an escort.

11 Q. Did you then have an opportunity to see the condition of the mekte?

12 A. Yes, I just glanced inside.

13 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, may I have this next series of photographs

14 marked for identification?

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What will be your Exhibit number for the video?

16 MR. TIEGER: The video would be 283 and these photographs would be 284A

17 through E.

18 JUDGE STEPHEN: We have not yet got to house No. 27 on the video, is that

19 right?

20 MR. TIEGER: That is right, your Honour.

21 JUDGE STEPHEN: Yes, thank you.

22 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Sivac, while we are waiting, perhaps you can show us on

23 your diagram where that building is located?

24 A. The mekte, you mean?

25 Q. Yes.

Page 4442

1 A. This is the first building below No. 15, that is 23.

2 Q. Thank you, sir. Your Honour, I might note at this point I am having

3 a little bit of difficulty with the interpretation. I hear the witness

4 saying "mekteb", I see the interpretation come back as "mekte" which

5 is not a word I understand in English.

6 JUDGE VOHRAH: The word is "mekteb" -- a college or school.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Perhaps it should be spelled, if that can help? Mr.

8 Sivac, could you spell the word for us, please, for the interpreter?

9 MR. TIEGER: Sir, if you could again tell us what the name for that

10 religious building was and spell it, if you can?

11 A. M, like Malcolm, E-K-T-E-B, mekteb.

12 Q. Thank you, sir. Mr. Sivac, do you recognise what is depicted in

13 those photographs 284A through E?

14 A. Yes, I do. This is the mekteb.

15 Q. Was that the condition it was in when you saw it after you were

16 released from Keraterm?

17 A. Yes, this burnt remains here, this is it.

18 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would ask that 284A through E be tendered and

19 placed on the monitor for the Court's viewing.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

21 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 284A through E will be admitted.

23 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Sivac, this shows the inside of the mekteb?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. This is another shot of the interior?

Page 4443

1 A. Yes. It had two rooms. This was the smaller room which served as a

2 classroom for children, and this is the entrance from the road. It

3 faced this entrance, and this is now mekteb.

4 Q. Thank you, sir. If we could return to the video then and continue

5 on the path between the area of your home and Hamid Sivac's house

6 where you were finally collected. Can we stop here, please?

7 A. This is Hamid Sivac's house there, the one to the right, and this is

8 the well where those who were bloody washed themselves. There was a

9 large yard here. That is where we were collected. The army was there

10 on the road, and as we were running they were diverting us into the

11 yard.

12 Q. The building shown to the extreme right of the screen behind the

13 well, what is that?

14 A. That is a barn, his stables and the house was a little bit more to

15 the right. Then there is a small shed, an outbuilding, there too.

16 Q. Mr. Sivac, during the period of time that you and the other 300 to

17 350 men were waiting, did a van come to the area?

18 A. Not a truck, I saw a van, a red van.

19 Q. Did you recognise that van?

20 A. Yes, the van belonged to Hilmija Nukic.

21 Q. Was anyone inside the van?

22 A. A soldier was driving it and behind him was one with a mask over his

23 head, only eyes could be seen, and he was pointing at us, at the

24 group.

25 Q. What nationality was Hilmija Nukic?

Page 4444

1 A. Muslim.

2 Q. During the time were you waiting there, did members of the Serb

3 forces demand to know where any particular people could be found or

4 asked for other information?

5 A. Yes, they were firing above our heads, provoking, enquiring about

6 Zemun people, as they called them. They were looking in yards. They

7 asked about Senad Kenjar and they were shouting, "I will kill you

8 all, I will kill you all, where is he?"

9 Q. Was anyone singled out in order to ----

10 A. Yes, yes, another one from Kamicani, from which Maci Kenjar was,

11 Mehmed Alic, called "Medo", was also singled out.

12 Q. Was that man beaten? Was Medo beaten in order to get him to tell

13 where Maci could be found?

14 A. Yes, that one who was the boss beat him, a tall one, blond with

15 gloves but without the tips of the fingers on. Then Maci said he did

16 not know him and then he first beat him with fists, and then he pulled

17 out his knife and tried going with his knife over his throat, and then

18 he took him behind the house and said, "You'll tell us all, you will

19 squeal". A couple of minutes later Medo ran up to us and he was old

20 bloody on the face and his collar, at the back and all.

21 Q. After a period of time at that collection site at Hamid Sivac's

22 house, did buses arrive?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. From what direction did they come?

25 A. The buses arrived from below, from the direction of Trnopolje, and

Page 4445

1 were lining here in the direction of Kozarac.

2 Q. I should indicate that, of course, we cannot see where you are

3 indicating on the video monitor, so we will have to be careful to

4 describe it as well as we can. So buses came from the direction of

5 Trnopolje?

6 A. Yes, from the direction of Trnopolje.

7 Q. So, as we are looking at the video, the buses would be coming toward

8 us?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What portion of the road did they park on?

11 A. On the right-hand side, in the direction in which they were moving.

12 Q. That would be on the other side of the road from where you were

13 gathered in the yard?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Approximately, how many buses were there?

16 A. In Keraterm I saw five, in Sivci I could not see. I saw three in

17 Sivci, but in Keraterm I saw five, when he said, "Why did you bring

18 350 people to me? Why did you not kill them all?" It was when we

19 arrived there.

20 Q. Where was the last bus in the line parked?

21 A. The last bus was parked on the bridge, across the bridge, level with

22 Hamid Sivac's bridge.

23 Q. Can we move the video forward just a bit? Can we stop here, please?

24 On the left side of the screen we can see a road leading to the left.

25 Did that road have a local name?

Page 4446

1 A. No, this first bridge, this is a road leading to Hamed Sivac's house.

2 The other one, that is where people had their plots of land so that

3 it led to the fields of Hamed Sivac.

4 Q. Perhaps we could make this a little clearer if we could refer back to

5 the diagram you made?

6 A. This short road leads to Hamed Sivac, and this one leads to Munib

7 Sivac's house, crosses the Jaruga I mentioned and out into the fields

8 where people had their plots of lands.

9 Q. The house which is marked No. 49, whose house is that?

10 A. This is Munib Sivac's house.

11 Q. So just below that on the diagram there are two paths leading off the

12 main road, one short, one longer. The longer path, that is the road

13 leading toward Munib Sivac's house?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The shorter path just above it, that is the road with a small bridge

16 that leads to Hamed Sivac's house?

17 A. Towards Hamed Sivac's house. It was a road serving one house only.

18 JUDGE STEPHEN: I thought 27 was Hamid Sivac's house.

19 MR. TIEGER: I was going to clarify. [To the witness]: You spoke of

20 Hamed Sivac's house just now and the bridge and the road leading to

21 Hamed Sivac's house. Is that H-A-M-E-D, Hamed?

22 A. 49 is H-A-M-E-D and 27 one is H-A-M-E-D and the 49 is H-A-M-I-D.

23 That was the yard where we were collected, where this road is.

24 Q. OK. I am sorry to do this, but I think it may have been confused so

25 let me try once more. Let me start it this way. You went to the home

Page 4447

1 marked as 27, is that right, that is where you were collected?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was that ----

4 A. Yes, in the yard, yes, of 27.

5 Q. Was that Hamid or Hamed Sivac's house?

6 A. Hamid.

7 Q. With an "I". The small path we see across the road, that is the path

8 leading toward Hamed Sivac's house with an "E"?

9 A. Yes, Hamed.

10 Q. If we look back to the video monitor, if we see the house shown in

11 the upper left hand portion of the screen and the fence which borders

12 that house, that path is the path toward Munib Sivac's house?

13 A. Yes, the lower road towards Munib Sivac's house.

14 Q. If we can move forward just a little bit? Stop here. In the left

15 hand portion of the screen, that white object shown just below Munib

16 Sivac's path, is that the bridge leading toward Hamed Sivac's house?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is there a hedge which separates the two on ----

19 A. Yes, there is.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The bridge in the road leading ----

21 MR. TIEGER: Between Munib Sivac's path and the path which runs from the

22 bridge. [To the witness]: Is there a hedge between the two?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So on either side of Munib Sivac's house is the fence which we can

25 see near that house?

Page 4448

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Then a hedge on the other side?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Mr. Sivac, after the buses arrived, were the Muslims who were

5 collected there ordered to run to the buses?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How were you ordered to run, in what fashion?

8 A. Normally running with hands behind our heads, and the first ones from

9 the bridge running up here, those to the bus which was parked in

10 front. I boarded the last bus which was standing here on Hamed

11 Sivac's bridge.

12 Q. Where were you among the group of Muslims who ran to the buses?

13 A. I was at the very end, because I thought that perhaps I could hide or

14 something, but I dared not to go down into the field because there

15 were two, not more than three, behind me.

16 Q. As you ran toward the buses or after the other people had run out

17 ahead of you, did you notice whether or not people had discarded items

18 which had Muslim associations?

19 A. Yes, there were many watches with Muslim markings, with the crescent

20 and the star, and amulets and charms which are worn for luck. I had

21 one and I discarded it.

22 Q. Mr. Sivac, you indicated to us that you ran toward the last bus. Was

23 the rear of that bus approximately in the area of Munib Sivac's path

24 or road?

25 A. Its rear part was right up to the hedge, between Hamed and Munib

Page 4449

1 Sivac's bridges.

2 Q. How did you proceed toward that bus? What path did you take?

3 A. The same from the yard except that those who were coming up had to go

4 to the left and I had to turn slightly to the right, then on to

5 Munib's road and then through the hedge. That is how we came out

6 directly to the buses, to the rear door which was on Hamed Sivac's

7 bridge.

8 Q. You went down the main road and then around the back of the bus down

9 a portion of Munib Sivac's road?

10 A. Yes, quite so.

11 Q. Until you came to a hole in the hedge where you could go through?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. About how far down Munib Sivac's road was that area of hedge where

14 you turned left?

15 A. Not far -- you mean from Hamid Sivac's yard?

16 Q. No.

17 A. It is about five metres and that is, you can see it on this picture.

18 This is the bridge and a little below the path and on to Munib

19 Sivac's road.

20 Q. Actually, my question was as you went around the bus and started down

21 Munib Sivac's path, how far down Munib Sivac's road did you have to

22 go to before you were able to turn left into a hole in the hedge?

23 A. Five metres, seven -- not far.

24 Q. Then you went through that hole in the hedge, were you on Hamed

25 Sivac's path?

Page 4450

1 A. Yes, we had to run up to that place with our hands like this. The

2 bus was already full so they were passing by. We were standing there

3 at the rear door of the bus on Hamed's road. I had already passed

4 through the hedge.

5 Q. You indicated you ran to the area of Munib Sivac's road. After you

6 got through the hedge were you still running?

7 A. There we had to slow down, because the bus was moving slowly and

8 there was this hedge so that we slowed down. We ran as far as the

9 hedge.

10 Q. Did you still have your hands behind your head?

11 A. Yes. All the time nonstop our hands had to be above the head.

12 Q. Were you trying to look at the Serb soldiers or were you concerned

13 about looking at Serb soldiers?

14 A. No, I was afraid, no, I did not and I preferred not to see them at

15 that moment.

16 Q. As the group slowed as you approached the bus, the rear entrance of

17 the bus, did you then look?

18 A. Yes, then I saw it was moving slowly and I saw clearly Dule Tadic and

19 Dragoje Cavic. I did not want really to see them, but it was so slow,

20 the bus was moving slowly, so I raised my head and I looked. Dule was

21 to the right of me and Dragoje Cavic was to the left some 80

22 centimetres from the bus, and the column had to pass between them,

23 between the two of them.

24 Q. As you approached the rear entrance of the bus, did you make eye

25 contact with either one of them?

Page 4451

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who was that?

3 A. As I was coming close, they were standing like this with automatic

4 rifles and I was drawing close, I knew Dule but not as well as Cavic.

5 With Cavic I socialised on a number of occasions and he seemed to be

6 embarrassed. He nodded his head in greeting and lowered slightly the

7 barrel of his rifle, and I was walking and I turned. I looked at

8 Cavic, I do not know why, perhaps so that he could help me or

9 something, and then the gentleman pushed me with his rifle to speed me

10 up on my way on to the bus, and I turned and I saw his face in full,

11 all the wrinkles and all. I could not see him better than I did.

12 Q. Who pushed you after you turned to look directly at Cavic and whose

13 face did you see in full when you turned after you were pushed?

14 A. I could see clearly the face of Dule Tadic who was standing to the

15 right of me.

16 Q. Did you board the bus?

17 A. Yes, although it was not easy because it was full already, but we had

18 to. We were pushing each other.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, the question that you asked the witness

20 was who pushed him after he turned and looked directly at Tadic, and

21 whose face did you see in full when you turned after you were pushed.

22 His response was, "I could see clearly the face of Dule Tadic".

23 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. I appreciate that. I will clarify

24 that. Mr. Sivac, you indicated that as you were approaching the bus

25 you looked up and saw Dule Tadic and Dragoje Cavic, is that right?

Page 4452

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Then as you got closer you made eye contact with Dragoje Cavic who

3 nodded to you and then lowered his weapon, is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Then you indicated that as you began to board the bus you looked to

6 Cavic and then you were pushed. Who was it that pushed you?

7 A. It was Dule Tadic.

8 Q. What did he push you with?

9 A. I could not see that clearly. I was pushed. I was talking to Cavic

10 who was -- not talking but looking at him, and I was pushed, not too

11 strongly, and I had to continue towards the bus.

12 Q. Then you indicated that after you were pushed you turned and looked

13 full face at the person who pushed you, and when you turned and looked

14 who was the person you saw full face?

15 A. It was Dule Tadic and then we were eye to eye, only there was the

16 length of the rifle. That is how we stood facing one another.

17 Q. After you boarded the bus, were you able to see outside before the

18 bus left?

19 A. Yes, I could still look through the window. I was standing by the

20 door for sometime.

21 Q. How many people boarded the bus after you?

22 A. Two, one or two.

23 Q. During the time those people were boarding and the period of time

24 before the bus left, were you able to see Dule Tadic and Dragoje Cavic

25 outside?

Page 4453

1 A. Yes, I could. Yes, I could see them.

2 Q. Mr. Sivac, do you recall what Dule Tadic was wearing on that

3 occasion?

4 A. I remember it very well. He had a camouflage uniform, a new one, as

5 far as I could see, a new one. He had an automatic rifle with the

6 folding butt. I used to have one like that, so that is why I

7 recognised it. Then he had a pistol, he had a knife on his left and

8 he did not have a cap. He had -- he may have had it down there, and

9 he, I think, had handcuffs on his belt.

10 Q. You said you used to have a rifle with a folding butt, was that when

11 you were in the JNA?

12 A. Yes. Yes, yes, it is an automatic rifle and that was the most common

13 weapon among the police.

14 Q. Do you recall whether Dule Tadic was clean shaven or had a beard?

15 A. He had a beard, not a long one. I could see his face clearly. Up to

16 here he had a beard, well, I would not be able to say exactly, of

17 about a month growth, 15 days or a month. It depends on how fast it

18 grows. Not a long one.

19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, would this be an appropriate time?

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

21 (11.30 a.m.)

22 (The Court adjourned for a short time)

23 (11.50 a.m.)

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, would you continue, please?

25 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour, thank you. Mr. Sivac, when the buses left

Page 4454

1 where did they go?

2 A. They went towards Kozarac, about 200 metres, and then they turned

3 around at my two brothers', then they turned around and then they went

4 back towards Trnopolje.

5 Q. Where did they eventually stop?

6 A. We passed -- in the beginning I thought that we were, they were

7 taking us to the camp, Trnopolje, but we went past Trnopolje and went

8 to Keraterm.

9 Q. When you arrived at Keraterm were guards or soldiers waiting there?

10 A. Yes, there was Zigic Zoran. He prepared a welcome with beatings.

11 Q. You mentioned before that someone said something, one of the guards

12 said something, when your group arrived. What was that?

13 A. Yes, he said, "Why did they bring 350 people here? Why did they not

14 kill them all off? What are they going to do with so many people

15 there?" because Keraterm was already full.

16 Q. Were the prisoners from your bus and the other buses beaten when they

17 got off the bus?

18 A. Yes, we all had to get off. We all had to put up our hands against

19 the bus and Zigic had a knife, it was bloodied. He must have stabbed

20 somebody. Then they were taking everything out, combs and nail

21 clippers, whatever, any small things. Then we were made to go into

22 those rooms. They were looking to see if there was any powder on it,

23 to see if somebody was shooting then, if somebody was limping, they

24 would pull up the cuffs so that they could see if there were any

25 wounds, and all this was being done with beatings.

Page 4455

1 Q. How long were you held in Keraterm?

2 A. In Keraterm I was 56 days, until the camp was closed, dissolved.

3 Q. What were the general conditions or how would you describe the

4 general conditions in Keraterm during the time you were held there?

5 A. Terrible conditions. There was hunger. For the first six days I ate

6 nothing and then there was dysentery later. Murders every night,

7 taking out, beatings. Those who were shot and killed with a bullet

8 were happy because he did not go through beatings that would take

9 several days, you know, baseball bats, anything that they would beat

10 them with.

11 Q. How much food did you receive after the first five or six days?

12 A. A small slice of bread, and some sort of soup, I do not know what it

13 was, and when they gave that you had to run 20, 30, if they say,

14 "Throw it away", if you had, and then they would beat you if you did

15 not with rifle butts, with barrels. Sometimes we did not dare go,

16 depending on what group it was waiting for us.

17 Q. Were you able to use toilet facilities there?

18 A. There was a toilet, but for a while, and sometimes they asked, "Who

19 wants to go to the toilet", and the first 10 come out and they get

20 beaten up. Then they stopped the toilets and then there was a barrel.

21 We were 570 in No. 2 and then the stench would be, and then it would

22 leak. It was horrible.

23 Q. Was it possible to move around from room to room and see other

24 prisoners whom you knew?

25 A. That would happen occasionally, depending on the shift, on the

Page 4456

1 guards. If they were better ones, sometimes they would let us out,

2 but they would sort of cordon the space with hoses that they had and

3 you did not -- you could not cross it. But that was rarely. We were

4 locked in there for three days at a time. It was so hot, and those who

5 were diabetics died there, some from heat. I was at the end of the

6 room and I could not breathe after a while, so I had to move closer to

7 the door and then I ended up being next to the door in No. 2.

8 Q. After you were released from Keraterm camp, were you taken to

9 Trnopolje camp for a short time?

10 A. Yes, they came, the long awaited day, we were waiting for it, and

11 then one day, I think at least 20 buses came. The ones from No. 3,

12 they were not beaten very severely. Everybody, they packed the buses

13 and we who went to Trnopolje we were not beaten. We had to bow our

14 heads and they told us that we were going to Trnopolje. Those two

15 buses that were so packed, they went ahead of us and, I do not know,

16 they did not go there. I do not know where they went.

17 Q. Did you leave Trnopolje camp in a convoy which contained mainly women

18 and children?

19 A. Yes, I went first, when I got to Trnopolje, first I went to Sivci to

20 see if there was any food there, and when I saw that there was nothing

21 there then I waited for a convoy. There was a convoy of five buses

22 with elderly and women and children. I somehow managed to get on that

23 and then went over Vlasic to Travnik. In Kozarac, there were another

24 15 buses and five trailers and they were filled with women and

25 children.

Page 4457

1 Q. What was the date that you left Trnopolje camp?

2 A. August 13th, a week before those 250 were to get killed on Vlasic.

3 Q. Mr. Sivac, do you see Dule Tadic in court today?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you point him out, please, and tell us what he is wearing?

6 A. He is dressed in a white jacket.

7 Q. I am sorry, what colour jacket?

8 THE INTERPRETER: My mistake. A green jacket. A green colour.

9 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, sir. May the record reflect the identification of

10 the accused?

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, the record will so reflect.

12 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. Nothing further.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, cross-examination?

14 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour.

15 Cross-Examined by MR. KAY

16 Q. Mr. Sivac, you told us that on this day, 14th June, that shooting

17 started at about 10 o'clock in the morning and you knew that forces

18 were approaching Sivci, do you remember that?

19 A. Yes, I said that.

20 Q. Then you said that a Serb soldier came into your house. Can you

21 remember what time that was?

22 A. Somewhere around 1 o'clock in the afternoon.

23 Q. You were in your house with your family at this time, is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. At this time after the search you were then separated from your

Page 4458

1 family, is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Eventually, you moved down the village to the place that we have been

4 calling a collection point near Hamid Sivac's house where there were

5 some 300 to 350 Muslim men, is that right?

6 A. Yes, first I was joined with a group that was across from my house,

7 about 12 of us, and then we ran to the road and we joined in with

8 another group and then we all ran together.

9 Q. Yes. What I was interested in was at about what time you got to

10 Hamid Sivac's house and waited there in the yard with those other men.

11 A. Nobody thought about looking at a watch. We were being beaten. It

12 was around 1 o'clock, and then we waited there for about 10 minutes

13 and then down, down the road. It was "lie down", "get up", "run".

14 Maybe there was about half an hour, up to one hour.

15 Q. So between half an hour to one hour it took for you to join the

16 collection point where all the other men had been gathered, is that

17 right?

18 A. Yes, that is right.

19 Q. In this time you were aware of Serb soldiers being in the village.

20 Were you able to have any idea of numbers, about how many soldiers

21 there were?

22 A. I saw one tank and many soldiers, from all sides. They were coming

23 through the fields. It was obvious that we were surrounded, that you

24 could not leave.

25 Q. Were those soldiers performing the same task that had happened to

Page 4459

1 you? Were they moving the other men to this collection point at Hamid

2 Sivac's house?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In that area of the collection point, did those soldiers remain

5 guarding you or did they move off and go elsewhere?

6 A. There were not many of them there in the yard. There was a main one

7 and a few other ones and then they were shooting over our heads. That

8 is the one with the gloves with no fingertips, and he had a radio and

9 the others you could see in the fields or in the barn. They were all

10 over.

11 Q. So, presumably, what was happening to you as you were moving to this

12 collection point and being given these orders to go down to the ground

13 and then come up again, was something to put you under their control

14 and in fear of their power, is that right?

15 A. It was not just fear. There were so many people were bloodied.

16 There was not a single person who did not get a kick or a rifle butt

17 that day.

18 Q. In that collection point with the shots being fired over your heads,

19 again that was, presumably, something to make you frightened and

20 fearful of what was going to happen?

21 A. I do not know what they thought, but I know that it was bad and

22 terrible.

23 Q. Yes. How long did you stay in that yard, the collection point,

24 before the buses came to the roadside?

25 A. I do not remember exactly, but not that long. Until the buses came

Page 4460

1 from Trnopolje, then they forced us on to the buses.

2 Q. You were in the third bus, so the other buses had been loaded before

3 you came to your bus, would that be right?

4 MR. TIEGER: I want to object. I think that is not a correct summary of

5 the evidence. I do not remember any testimony about the number of

6 buses lined up. I think the witness said he was in the last bus.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: He did say that there were three buses, as I recall

8 the testimony, from Sivci five and when he got to Keraterm, and he was

9 in the third. I do not remember that he testified about how long they

10 were lined up, though, but may be so. I will overrule your objection.

11 THE WITNESS: I was in the third one of the ones that I saw and that was

12 the last bus.

13 MR. KAY [To the witness]: Those buses were lined up along the roadside,

14 I think you told us, is that right?

15 A. Yes, yes, on the right, to the right.

16 Q. You had in your mind that you would have preferred to be towards the

17 end getting on to the buses because you wondered whether there would

18 be an opportunity for you to escape or hide and avoid the detention,

19 is that right?

20 A. Yes, that was on my mind. I thought there was a shed there and there

21 were some construction supplies, and then when you got up there, then

22 I looked and I saw that there were military in the field beyond it,

23 and so then I turned around and I joined the group that was going

24 towards the buses.

25 Q. The buses arrived, as you have told us, from the direction of

Page 4461

1 Trnopolje?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The first bus, presumably, took the first group of people, would that

4 be right?

5 A. A part of the entire group, we were all one group, and then they

6 ordered "Hands behind your heads and run", and then we had to run on

7 to the buses through the cordon.

8 Q. Was the first bus filled first, is that right?

9 A. Naturally, yes, first the first one, then the second and I went to

10 the last one.

11 Q. Yes. Would it be right to say that the buses were taking about 100

12 people each bus?

13 A. Maybe, I know, I know how much a bus fits. I know that a glass broke

14 on one of them. It was impossible how many people. One on top of each

15 other were put.

16 Q. These are ordinary transport buses that would ordinarily have been

17 used to take people between towns and villages, is that right?

18 A. Yes, Autotransport Prijedor.

19 Q. These buses were taking far more than their usual load of people, the

20 numbers were far greater?

21 A. At least double, maybe even more.

22 Q. So it is not a case within these buses of people sitting on seats as

23 you would ordinarily do; these buses were crammed up with people, is

24 that right?

25 A. Exactly.

Page 4462

1 Q. Were people sitting on the floor of the buses?

2 A. One on top of the other, on the floor, any which way.

3 Q. To get from the collection point on to the buses was the group just

4 being moved as a whole and then suddenly they would say, "That's

5 enough for the first bus"?

6 A. I do not know what they said, but I know what I did. You cannot put

7 everybody in the same bus. When the first one was filled up, then

8 they would fill up the second.

9 Q. When those men were in those buses, how were they able to position

10 themselves? Did they have to look down to the ground? Did they have

11 to keep their heads down?

12 A. Everybody ran like this, and then you would get on until they said it

13 was enough. I think that is how it was. I know that in my bus I came

14 and it was already full, but you had to get on.

15 Q. Do these buses load at the rear or the front or the side? Where is

16 the access point?

17 A. I do not know about the other two buses from what I saw from that. I

18 entered by the back door of the last bus.

19 Q. By that stage, as you have told us, there were only a few people

20 behind you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You had to force your way on to the bus, presumably, to try to get in

23 and be part of the load?

24 A. It would not help me to push, because when they got on, then I got on

25 and I just prayed to God to get on as fast as possible.

Page 4463

1 Q. The bus that you got on to, the third bus, was as full as the other

2 two, would that be right?

3 A. Yes, very crowded.

4 Q. Yes. Again it would be the same scene of men on top of each other,

5 crammed and no space?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. To get on to the Auto Prijedor buses that were there, you told us you

8 go through the rear. What kind of doors were on the rear of the bus?

9 A. That was like an accordion, you know, it is three segments or four, I

10 do not know. There were not -- they were opening on both sides.

11 Q. Yes, operated by air pressure normally, would that be right?

12 A. I do not know. I am not an expert. They were just opening and

13 closing by themselves.

14 Q. They are these doors in sections on two sides and they close

15 together?

16 A. Yes, this, they were open.

17 Q. When you step on to the bus, do you step on to a step and then on to

18 another step to get on to the level where the seats are, would that be

19 right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When you had got on to that bus, did the door shut behind you?

22 A. Yes, but with difficulty. It was hard. We had to pack more.

23 Q. You had stepped up and then you had to use your body to try to get

24 further into the bus so that the other two or three behind you could

25 also step on behind you, is that right?

Page 4464

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were you standing or sitting when you got into the bus?

3 A. At first I stood up, then there was room, there was room where the

4 conductor sat. Nobody, or for some reason nobody used that. Then

5 after the bus started I went over there. I climbed over there and

6 then a lot of other people leaned into that area.

7 Q. So when the bus moved off you were sitting in that position where the

8 conductor would sit, is that right?

9 A. Not right away. We went up to Sivci and then when we were coming

10 back, that is when I did.

11 Q. So after your journey had started, you moved to this new position?

12 A. Yes, when the buses turned around and started towards Trnopolje.

13 Q. You mentioned when you gave your evidence this morning that the bus

14 appeared to be moving slowly when you were getting on it. You had to

15 step on to this bus that was moving slowly, is that right?

16 A. I did not mention that. We were moving slowly. The bus was

17 standing, so stationary.

18 Q. So the bus was stationary, you moved slowly and eventually got on and

19 then the doors were shut behind you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Then did the bus move on once the last person had got on to the bus?

22 A. For a while they stood there and then when they saw the others

23 moving, then they moved. I could not see that. But for a while it

24 stood stationary.

25 Q. But it was at that time you were not sitting down, you were part of

Page 4465

1 the crowd at the back of the bus?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Other people had to force their way in behind you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So, you were looking into the interior of the bus?

6 A. As I pushed in I had to make room for the other two, so that the

7 doors would close and so I turned around and I looked out. It was

8 easier to look towards the door and I was on the step. It was easier

9 than to look towards the people.

10 Q. When you say the "step", you mean the lower step where the doors

11 operate?

12 A. Yes, the first step, because there was three of us and maybe the

13 three of us were on that last step.

14 Q. Were those who had got on to the bus behind you between you and the

15 door?

16 A. Do you mean between me and the door?

17 Q. You stepped on to the bus and you had to get your space and room.

18 Then you told us you turned round and there were the people behind you

19 who also had to get on after you. Were they between you and the

20 folding doors?

21 A. No, I climbed and I made room for the other two. Then we were all

22 standing on the same step and the door closed, and there was another

23 step up and there were a lot of people on it and then the rest of

24 them, I could not see how many.

25 Q. Were there any soldiers on the bus?

Page 4466

1 A. Inside?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. I did not see at that time. When we arrived in Keraterm I saw that a

4 soldier was driving it in a uniform, but not on the bus, there was

5 not.

6 Q. So it did not appear that there was a guard or guards within the bus?

7 A. I could not see. It was full. I could not even -- I could not even

8 pass there. I was on the last step. It was impossible how full it

9 was.

10 Q. The hedge that you had passed through to get on to the path to get on

11 to the bus is a hedge that separates two of the houses, the house of

12 Hamed Sivac and Munib Sivac, have I got that right?

13 A. That is right.

14 Q. What sort of hedge is this? What height?

15 A. There was a couple of tree trunks and then there were smaller

16 branches and it was not a fence. It was a natural, it was a growing

17 fence.

18 Q. It was some shrub or something that had been used as a fence between

19 the properties, is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When you say you walked through it, was there a hole there already or

22 did you have to force your way through the branches?

23 A. There was already a hole.

24 Q. So it was part of the way through between those properties, was it?

25 A. Yes, we had to pass through that so that we could get to the path of

Page 4467

1 Hamed Sivac to get on to the bus.

2 Q. The hole that you got through was how far from the rear doors of the

3 bus?

4 A. About five to seven metres.

5 Q. You had to do that with your hands behind your head?

6 A. Yes, there already we were like this, bowed a little bit, and up

7 until then we ran. After that we walked slower because of the crowd

8 that was getting on to the bus.

9 Q. But still with your hands behind your head, is that what you are

10 indicating?

11 A. Nonstop, yes, nonstop.

12 Q. The bowing of the head, presumably, made you look downwards?

13 A. Yes, to the ground, or the floor.

14 Q. It seems from what you said that Dragoje Cavic was someone that you

15 knew better than Dusko Tadic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. As you were getting on to the bus it was he that you were more

18 concerned to see and look at as you knew each other?

19 A. Yes. Before I arrived I saw both of them. Afterwards, I looked at

20 Cavic and Cavic sort of nodded his head as a greeting and lowered his

21 rifle. I think he was a bit embarrassed.

22 Q. It was not until you were pushed by a weapon that you then turned,

23 you say, to look at the other guard and you say that you then saw

24 Dusko Tadic, is that right?

25 A. I saw him beforehand, I just said that. As I was approaching, first

Page 4468

1 I tried not to see, as it was people were moving slower I had to raise

2 my hand and then I saw him and it was very clear. It was this far

3 away.

4 Q. But until then you had not been conscious that it was Dusko Tadic.

5 You had just seen a guard, is that right?

6 A. No, I was aware that it was him because I know him from a long time

7 ago.

8 Q. But your head was bowed and you were looking downwards?

9 A. I tried. There we had to raise our heads because they all -- they

10 all looked us in the eyes.

11 Q. When were you first asked to recollect what Dusko Tadic looked like

12 and what he was wearing on this day on June 14th? When were you first

13 asked to give that description?

14 A. I think now, I do not know.

15 Q. What we are dealing with here are events that happened four years

16 ago, are we not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Have you heard any of these court proceedings on television?

19 A. I only heard that he had been arrested.

20 Q. Have you spoken to any other witnesses about descriptions of Dusko

21 Tadic?

22 A. No.

23 Q. So your first recollection of what he actually looked like has been

24 when you were asked now, you say, and do you think that you can be

25 mistaken then about how that man looked?

Page 4469

1 A. No, I am not mistaken, for sure.

2 Q. Because it seems, from what you have told us, that getting on the bus

3 you did not look at him for a long period, is that right?

4 A. I did not say that. I said that I got on, that I turned towards the

5 outside because it was easier to keep your head, your face, towards

6 the glass rather than towards the people, and then I could see them.

7 Q. You have mentioned these two being guards at the door of the rear of

8 the bus. Were there any other soldiers around there as well?

9 A. There I did not see any. As we ran from the yard, they were

10 directing us where we needed to go to and that is where I saw just the

11 two. I think around Hamid Sivac's house there were also some.

12 Q. Were any of them beating you as you went down the road from the

13 collection point to where the bus was parked?

14 A. No, not then. Then it was only run on to the buses. They beat

15 before that along the main road.

16 Q. So, looking at the timing then, when your bus moved from this

17 position, what time would that have been? How long had all this taken

18 for you to be on that bus and then be taken on your journey?

19 A. I cannot tell you exactly. I told you, altogether from my house it

20 took about 10 minutes, waiting, running, provocation, standing in the

21 yard waiting for those buses. It could have been -- we arrived in

22 Keraterm around 4 o'clock, perhaps half past 3.

23 Q. What I am interested in is what time you left Sivci.

24 A. I cannot tell you, and I am sure that it did not occur to anyone to

25 look at their watch under the circumstances, nor did anybody dare to.

Page 4470

1 Q. I understand that, but it may be with a little bit of thought and

2 recollection that a time may suggest itself to you, even if you have

3 not had time to think about it before. If you arrived at Keraterm at

4 about 4 o'clock, did your journey there take about an hour from Sivci?

5 A. Half past 3, 4 o'clock, I do not really know. I claim that I did not

6 have a watch. I know that when I left my home it was warm.

7 Q. I think you have told us it was about 1 o'clock that the soldier

8 arrived at your house?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. KAY: That is all I ask, your Honour.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, do you have any redirect?

12 MR. TIEGER: Just one question, your Honour, I may ask for just a moment.

13 Re-examined by MR. TIEGER

14 Mr. Sivac, I may not have asked you this before, those panels

15 which closed as a door on the back entrance of the bus, were those

16 glass panels in part?

17 A. Yes, they had three or four sections, and they were as a harmonica

18 and there were glasses on each side.

19 Q. May I have just a moment? Nothing further.


21 MR. KAY: Nothing arises, your Honour.

22 Examined by the Court

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Sivac, how far is Sivci from Kozarac?

24 A. Between Kozarac and Trnopolje, about three kilometres.

25 Q. So, I do not know, looking at this map, this Prosecutor's 281, it

Page 4471

1 would be two kilometres or so from Sivci to Kozarac?

2 A. I would not know. We always said it was three. That is why I say, I

3 went to school there, I went by car. Two and a half, three, I do not

4 know.

5 Q. From Trnopolje to Kozarac?

6 A. No, from Sivci and Kozarac, Trnopolje is six kilometres, and this is

7 about halfway closer to Trnopolje.

8 Q. Three kilometres then from Sivci to Kozarac?

9 A. Yes, roughly.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger? Mr. Kay?

11 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to Mr. Sivac being permanently

13 excused?

14 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Sivac, you are permanently excused. You are free

16 to leave. Thank you for coming.

17 (The witness withdrew)

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, would you call the next witness?

19 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, prior to calling the next witness there is a

20 matter that we need to raise with the Court. The witnesses who will

21 testify about the events in Jaskici have the same sensitivity that we

22 faced with an earlier witness about naming particular persons whose

23 bodies were found on that day, the same type of sensitivity.

24 We do not wish to handle that matter through a closed session

25 for each witness. So what we have proposed to the Defence (and they

Page 4472

1 have agreed) is that we have listed people from the village on a list.

2 We will have the witnesses refer to the list and give us the letters

3 or numbers rather than mention names. Again, we are fully aware that

4 the indictment is public, that any findings would be public. However,

5 it is the sensitivities of the witness. So we believe this way we

6 could accommodate them and at the same time get the information to the

7 Court.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you then file that list under seal?

9 MISS HOLLIS: We would submit that as a Prosecution Exhibit and ----


11 MISS HOLLIS: --- and have that provided to the witnesses.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Then that particular Exhibit would be under

13 seal, I gather. Yes. Is there any objection?

14 MR. KAY: There is not, your Honour, and it may be appropriate if you and

15 your fellow Judges had a copy of the list as well with the key which

16 is giving the numerical order and letters.

17 MISS HOLLIS: We will offer that now as a Prosecution Exhibit. It will be

18 Prosecution Exhibit 285 for identification. We have provided a copy

19 of this to the Defence and we have a copy for each of the Judges.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to 285?

21 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That will be admitted under seal.

23 MISS HOLLIS: We would also ask at this time that we be allowed to put up

24 a diagram that we will be using with the next several witnesses.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Will you be offering a hard copy of that?

Page 4473

1 MISS HOLLIS: Yes. We will be offering the large diagram as an Exhibit

2 and a photograph can be made of that. We have a smaller diagram just

3 showing the layout of the houses we will also be offering as an

4 Exhibit.

5 Your Honour, we would call Sena Jaskic.

6 Sena Jaskic, called.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Jaskic, would you please take the oath that is

8 being given to you.

9 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

10 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

12 Examined by MISS HOLLIS.

13 MISS HOLLIS: Would you please state your name?

14 A. Sena Jaskic.

15 Q. What was your date of birth?

16 A. 15th July '63.

17 Q. What is your nationality or ethnic group?

18 A. Muslim.

19 Q. Where were you born?

20 A. In the village of Dergici.

21 Q. At this time if the witness could be provided with Prosecution

22 Exhibit 280 which is a map. If I could ask you, ma'am,, to please

23 look at that map for a moment to orient yourself and then I will ask

24 you to show the Judges where the village of Dergici is located. If

25 that could be put on the overhead, please.

Page 4474

1 A. Yes, I can see it.

2 Q. If that could be placed on the overhead, please. If you could move

3 it over to the Kozarac area, please, and then zoom in on it. If you

4 could please point to Dergici on the map?

5 A. [The witness indicated on the map].

6 Q. Thank you. Ma'am, did you live in Dergici until you married in 1981?

7 A. Until 1981.

8 Q. Did you then move to your husband's home in Jaskici?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What is your husband's name?

11 A. Ismet Jaskic.

12 Q. What is his nationality or ethnic group?

13 A. Muslim.

14 Q. What was his occupation?

15 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry, we could not hear that.

16 MISS HOLLIS: I am sorry, ma'am, could you speak up just a bit. What was

17 your husband's occupation?

18 A. He was a wood cutter. That was his profession. He was a lumberer.

19 Q. Did you and your husband live with your husband's father in Jaskici?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What was your husband's father's name?

22 A. Huso Jaskic.

23 Q. You lived in Jaskici until when?

24 A. Until '92.

25 Q. How far is Jaskici from Trnopolje?

Page 4475

1 A. About three kilometres.

2 Q. How far is Jaskici from the town of Kozarac?

3 A. Three, 3.5 kilometres I think.

4 Q. Did you ever visit Kozarac?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you know Dule Tadic?

7 A. No.

8 Q. At this time if I could have this marked as the next exhibit in order

9 which should be Prosecution Exhibit 286 for identification. I have

10 three copies for the Judges. We have already provided the Defence

11 with a copy. Ma'am, would you look at that and, keeping in mind that

12 the diagram is not exactly to scale, is this a correct layout of the

13 houses in Jaskici as of June 1992?

14 A. Yes, that is what it was.

15 Q. If the map could be removed from the overhead projector and the

16 diagram put on the overhead projector, please. As we look at this

17 diagram, there appears to be a road or a path going to the homes of

18 Abaz Jaskic and Nijaz Jaskic. To your knowledge, did that path

19 continue all the way to Sivci?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In addition to that behind the homes of Zijad Elkasovic, Ilijaz

22 Elkasovic, Nijaz Elkasovic and Salko Jaskic, that area behind those

23 homes, was that area fields?

24 A. Yes, they were fields and this was a road to the fields.

25 Q. Was there also a small wood between Sivci and Jaskici, a small wooded

Page 4476

1 area?

2 A. Yes, there was.

3 Q. Could you take that pointer again and could you show us the

4 approximate area where that small wooded area was located?

5 A. [The witness indicated on the map].

6 Q. So the small wooded area ran behind the house of Salko Jaskic and

7 Nijaz Elkasovic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did the wooded area extend beyond that or did it stop with Nijaz

10 Elkasovic's house?

11 A. Zijad Elkasovic's is there.

12 Q. So the small wooded area ran behind the fields up to the area of

13 Zijad Elkasovic's house?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. If you went to Sivci from Jaskici using the path by Abaz Jaskic's

16 house or by going over the fields and through the wooded area, how

17 long would it take you to walk from Jaskici to Sivci?

18 A. About 10 minutes.

19 Q. At this time I would offer Prosecution Exhibit 286 for

20 identification.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to 286?

22 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 286 will be admitted.

24 MISS HOLLIS: At this time I would ask that the large diagram with the

25 photographs be indicated as Prosecution Exhibit 287 for

Page 4477

1 identification. At this time I would ask if the witness would,

2 please, get up from the chair and come over to this diagram with the

3 photos on it. If you could bring that pointer with you as well. If

4 you can stand to the other side, please, nearer your chair. If I

5 could ask you to point out certain things and, as I ask it, if you

6 would point to it. First of all, for the Court would you please point

7 to the photograph that shows the house of Zijad Elkasovic?

8 A. (The witness indicated).

9 Q. For the record, that is the top left photograph as you look at the

10 diagram. If you could next point to the photograph showing the house

11 of Ilijaz Elkasovic?

12 A. (The witness indicated).

13 Q. That is the second photograph from the right, top right side as you

14 look at the diagram, top left side as you look at the diagram. If you

15 could please point to the house of Nijaz Elkasovic?

16 A. (The witness indicated).

17 Q. That would be the third photograph from the top left as you look at

18 the diagram. If you could point to the house of Salko Jaskic?

19 A. (The witness indicated).

20 Q. That is the bottom photograph on the left side of the diagram as you

21 look at it. If you could point to the homes of Abaz Jaskic and Nijaz

22 Jaskic?

23 A. This is Abaz Jaskic's house.

24 Q. I believe you have indicated that the white two-storey structure is

25 the home of Abaz Jaskic. If you can, could point to the home of Nijaz

Page 4478

1 Jaskic.

2 A. (The witness indicated).

3 Q. I would note the witness is pointing to the red structure to the left

4 of the photograph. If you could point to your home, the home of Huso

5 Jaskic.

6 A. (The witness indicated).

7 Q. That is the bottom right photograph as you view the diagram. If you

8 could next point to the home of Ahmed Jaskic?

9 A. (The witness indicated).

10 Q. That is the second photograph from the bottom on the right as you

11 look at the diagram. If you could point to the photograph showing the

12 home of Munib Jusovic.

13 A. (The witness indicated).

14 Q. That is the third photograph from the bottom on the right as you look

15 at the diagram. If you could point to the home of Iso Nureski.

16 A. (The witness indicated).

17 Q. That is the top photograph on the right as you look at the diagram.

18 Finally, if you could point to the home of Jozo Orlovski.

19 A. (The witness indicated).

20 Q. That is the photograph in the centre at the top of the diagram as you

21 look at the diagram.

22 Thank you. If you could please take your seat. I would offer

23 Prosecution Exhibit 286 for identification.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

25 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

Page 4479

1 MISS HOLLIS: 287 for identification.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 287 will be admitted.

3 MISS HOLLIS: Ma'am, you have pointed to the homes of the Elkasovic

4 families. Did some people in Jaskici refer to the Elkasovic family as

5 Elkaz as some type of nickname or abbreviation?

6 A. Yes, some people did use it sometimes.

7 Q. What was the ethnic group of the Elkasovic families?

8 A. Muslim.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak up or come closer to the

10 microphones.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Jaskic, would you sit just a little bit further

12 -- and perhaps the microphones can be turned now that she is sitting

13 had in her chair -- so that we can hear you better.

14 MISS HOLLIS: Ma'am, I know you are soft spoken but if you could assist us

15 in speaking up a little it would help. Was Salko Jaskic any relation

16 to Huso Jaskic?

17 A. Yes. He was Huso Jaskic's son.

18 Q. Was Ahmed Jaskic related to Huso?

19 A. Ahmed was the brother of Huso Jaskic.

20 Q. What was his relationship then with Salko Jaskic?

21 A. I do not understand the question.

22 Q. How was he related to Salko Jaskic?

23 A. They were.

24 Q. How was Huso Jaskic related to Salko Jaskic? What was the

25 relationship?

Page 4480

1 A. Huso was Salko Jaskic's father.

2 Q. What was the ethnic group of the Jaskic family?

3 A. Muslim.

4 Q. You pointed to the photograph of the house of Munib Jusovic. What

5 was his ethnic group, if you know?

6 A. Muslim.

7 Q. Iso Nureski, what was his ethnic group?

8 A. Muslim.

9 Q. Jozo Orlovski, what was his ethnic group?

10 A. Catholic I believe.

11 Q. On 14th June of 1992 was the condition of the houses and other

12 buildings, the yards, bushes and trees in Jaskici, on that date in

13 June 1992 was the condition of the village the same as is shown in

14 these photographs here?

15 A. No, it was much neater, tidier, cleaner and all the houses were in

16 order.

17 Q. On 14th June of 1992 did men in uniforms come to Jaskici?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Where were you when these men came to Jaskici?

20 A. I was at home.

21 Q. Where were you at home?

22 A. In the summer kitchen.

23 Q. If I could have this photograph, please, marked as Prosecution

24 Exhibit 288 for identification. If that can be shown to the Defence,

25 please. Then if that could be provided to the witness. Is this a

Page 4481

1 photograph of your home?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. If that photograph could be placed on the overhead projector, please.

4 If you could zoom out a little bit more, please, to get the entire

5 photograph. Thank you. Ma'am, as you look at this photograph, could

6 you please point to the structure that was the house in which you

7 lived?

8 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph]. This house.

9 Q. So that is the structure in the centre of that photograph. Could you

10 point ----

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Would you please zoom back out, please. Could you please point to

13 what you refer to as the "summer kitchen"?

14 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph].

15 Q. So that is the smaller structure we see on the left of the

16 photograph as we look at it, is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The structure to the right of the photograph, what was that?

19 A. It is was a barn and the garage.

20 Q. Now as we look at this photograph and see the trees and the bushes,

21 are those in the condition in which they were on 14th June 1992?

22 A. No, they were not. Everything was clean and tidy and the house was

23 all right and everything.

24 Q. Were the trees and bushes cut down lower?

25 A. Naturally, the trees were lower, everything had been felled,

Page 4482

1 everything was fine.

2 Q. So on 14th June when the men came to the village of Jaskici you were

3 in the small summer house, summer kitchen, is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. At that time who was in this summer kitchen with you?

6 A. My husband was there, Hasan Jakupovic, Nihada Turkanovic, Aisa, I do

7 not know her surname, and my two daughters Jasmina and Merima.

8 Q. Why were Hasan Jakupovic and Nihada Turkanovic, why were they at your

9 home on that date?

10 A. Because they had lost their homes already and had to be accommodated

11 somewhere.

12 Q. From what villages did those people come?

13 A. Aisa was from Brdjani and Hasan and Nihada were from Kozarusa.

14 Q. Nihada is Nihada Turkanovic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What was the ethnic group of these people?

17 A. Muslim.

18 Q. How did you first become aware that these men in uniform had come to

19 your village?

20 A. We were sitting there in the summer kitchen and there was gunfire

21 daily, but then all of a sudden noise started and my husband stood up

22 to see what was that, and then he said: "Here come some". He came

23 back, sat down and there were already two soldiers at the door to the

24 summer kitchen. It was all very quick.

25 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, perhaps this would be an appropriate time to

Page 4483

1 break for lunch.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess until 2.30.

3 (1.00 p.m.)

4 (Luncheon Adjournment).

5 (2.30 p.m.) PRIVATE

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, would you continue with Mrs. Jaskic?

7 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. Prior to that, your Honour, there is a

8 matter I would like to clarify. During the testimony of Sakib Sivac,

9 when he identified the accused, the transcript indicated that he said

10 that the accused was wearing a white jacket.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then he corrected himself and said a "green jacket".

12 MISS HOLLIS: Actually, your Honour, that is what I thought as well when

13 he said, "I am sorry, my mistake". In fact, the interpreter told me

14 at lunch that the interpreter had misinterpreted, that in fact the

15 witness said "green", the interpreter said "white". So the "I am

16 sorry, my mistake" was, in fact, the interpreter speaking and not a

17 translation from the witness. That was at 12.02.12, page 36, line 2.

18 So I thought I would bring that to the Court's attention.

19 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We are fully aware of that, your Honour, so no problem

20 whatsoever.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Thank you. We will resolve that I accept that

22 explanation, but we perhaps need to get some other matters clarified,

23 just as a matter of policy. Fine. That has been clarified. Do you

24 want to call Mrs. Jaskic?

25 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.

Page 4484

1 MRS. JASKIC, recalled

2 Examined by MISS HOLLIS, continued.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, you may continue.

4 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour. Again, Mrs. Jaskic, I would ask you

5 to try to speak up some so that the interpreters can hear your

6 replies. When we broke for the lunch recess, you had indicated that

7 on 14th June 1992, while you and other persons were in your summer

8 kitchen, soldiers came to your door. Do you recall what time of the

9 day it was that these soldiers came to your door?

10 A. That was 3 o'clock in the afternoon.

11 Q. How is it that you know it was that time?

12 A. Because we were waiting for the news and just before the news it was

13 the two soldiers came in. The news was supposed to be at 3 o'clock.

14 Q. So it was just at the time the news was to commence when the soldiers

15 came?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. These two soldiers who came to your door, did you recognise either of

18 these soldiers?

19 A. No, I did not.

20 Q. Do you recall what they were wearing?

21 A. No, I do not remember.

22 Q. What happened when these two soldiers came to your door?

23 A. When they came to the door they said that, "You two men come out and

24 the rest of you remain seated".

25 Q. When they said, "You two men come out", who was it who left the

Page 4485

1 summer kitchen?

2 A. My husband, Ismet, and Hasan Jakupovic and they took them towards the

3 street, towards the road.

4 Q. Did you and the other people in the summer kitchen remain there in

5 the summer kitchen?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What did you see or hear after your husband and Hasan Jakupovic were

8 taken out?

9 A. I heard when one of the soldiers cursed and I heard them beating my

10 -- hitting my husband because he was breathing heavily.

11 Q. Did you hear the soldiers ask any questions to the two men?

12 A. Yes, they cursed and I am quoting, "Alija, fuck your mother, who you

13 have in the house?" and then they said, "Get up, get going" and such.

14 Q. Did you hear either of the two men reply and answer who was in the

15 house?

16 A. Yes, my husband said, "I do not have anybody".

17 Q. What happened after that?

18 A. Then the noise, the shouts stopped and I could not hear anything any

19 more.

20 Q. Later that day did you go out of the house?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When you went out of the house that day what did you see?

23 A. I went to the road and I went towards the Ilijaz's home and I saw two

24 men dead.

25 Q. Was this the home of Zijad Elkasovic?

Page 4486

1 A. That was between the two houses of Nijaz Elkasovic and Ilijas

2 Elkasovic.

3 Q. Without giving the names of these two people, did you recognise these

4 two people?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. If I could retrieve Prosecution Exhibit 285, please? If that Exhibit

7 could be provided to the witness Mrs. Jaskic? Mrs. Jaskic, if you

8 would look at that list, please, and if you could find the names of

9 the two men whose bodies you recognised and, without giving the names,

10 if you could tell the Judges the letters next to those names?

11 A. The letters A and B.

12 Q. After you saw these two bodies, what did you do?

13 A. I returned home. I took a bag with clothes and I took my children

14 and went to Kararici.

15 Q. You went to Kararici?

16 A. Yes, Kararici.

17 Q. After your husband and Hasan were taken out that day, did you ever

18 see either one of them again?

19 A. No, that was the last time I saw them.

20 Q. If you could look again at that list and if you could find the names

21 of the men that you personally know were taken away that day and then

22 without ----

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. --- giving the names if you could tell the Judges the numbers that

25 are next to the names of those men who were taken away?

Page 4487

1 A. No. 6 and No. 7.

2 Q. If that Exhibit could be retrieved from the witness, please, and

3 provided back to the Registry? Mrs. Jaskic, when you went to

4 Kararici, did you stay in Kararici until 23rd June?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. On that date did you go to Trnopolje camp?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Why did you go to Trnopolje camp on that date?

9 A. The military came and all the refugees have to get their things and

10 go to Trnopolje, so all the -- all of us refugees had to leave our

11 houses and go to Trnopolje.

12 Q. Who took you there?

13 A. I do not know, some soldiers. How do I know who they are?

14 Q. The next day after arriving at Trnopolje camp, did you go on a

15 convoy and eventually reach Bosnian government territory?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How old was your husband, Ismet, when he was taken away on 14th June

18 1992?

19 A. Would you please repeat the question -- 31.

20 Q. He was 31 years old?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You indicated that you have not seen him since that date. Have you

23 made ----

24 A. No.

25 Q. --- attempts to find him?

Page 4488

1 A. Yes, I looked all over, but in vain.

2 Q. Have you gone through international agencies to attempt to find him?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Have you had any success at all in locating your husband?

5 A. No, I never had any success. I never found out anything.

6 Q. To your knowledge, was your husband a member of any anti-Serb

7 military or paramilitary unit in June 1992?

8 A. No.

9 Q. To your knowledge, was he a member of any armed anti-Serb resistance

10 group?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did your husband have any weapons in the home on the day he was taken

13 away?

14 A. He did not have anything.

15 MISS HOLLIS: No further questions.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Cross-examination?

17 MR. KAY: No cross-examination, your Honour.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mrs. Jaskic being

19 permanently excused?

20 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Jaskic, you are permanently excused. That means

22 you are free to leave. Thank you for coming.

23 THE WITNESS: Thank you for inviting me here.

24 (The witness withdrew)

25 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, the Prosecution calls Draguna Jaskic.

Page 4489


2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Jaskic, would you please take that oath that is

3 being given to you?

4 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

5 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

6 (The witness was sworn)

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

8 Examined by MISS HOLLIS

9 Q. Would you please tell us your name?

10 A. I do not hear. I cannot hear very well. Jaskic Draguna.

11 Q. What is your date of birth?

12 A. 13th June 1955.

13 Q. What is your nationality or ethnic group?

14 A. Muslim.

15 Q. Were you born in Brdjani?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you live there until you were 10 years old and then move to

18 Kenjari?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is Kenjari a small hamlet that is near Jaskici?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you move from Kenjari to Jaskici when you were married?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What is your husband's name?

25 A. Jaskic Salko.

Page 4490

1 Q. What year was your husband born?

2 A. January 5th 1956.

3 Q. What is your husband's ethnic group?

4 A. Muslim.

5 Q. What was his occupation?

6 A. He was a worker. He worked in the forest.

7 Q. Did you live in Jaskici until 14th June 1992?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. If I could ask at this time that this be marked Prosecution Exhibit

10 289 for identification? Is this a photograph of your home in Jaskici?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. If this could be placed on the overhead, please? Ma'am, if you could

13 look at this photograph and if you could take that pointer that is on

14 the table and if you could point to the building that was your house?

15 A. Yes. [The witness indicated on the photograph].

16 Q. That is the building to the right in the photograph as you look at

17 it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Then if you could tell us what the building is that is immediately

20 adjacent, it is next to your house on the left, what was that

21 building?

22 A. That was my summer kitchen.

23 Q. Then if you could point to the building that is to the left of your

24 summer kitchen?

25 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph].

Page 4491

1 Q. If you could tell us what that structure was?

2 A. It was the barn. It was of the barn.

3 Q. If you could take your seat, please. As we look at that photograph,

4 was that the condition that your home and the other buildings and your

5 yard was in in June 1992?

6 A. No.

7 Q. The trees and the bushes that we see there, were they shorter and cut

8 back?

9 A. No, no.

10 Q. Were they shorter and cut ----

11 A. It was not like that. It was shorter.

12 Q. As you grew up in Brdjani, in Kenjari and then as you lived in

13 Jaskici, did you ever visit the town of Kozarac?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How often would you visit Kozarac on an average in a week?

16 A. Two to three times.

17 Q. Why would you visit Kozarac?

18 A. I would go to buy food, to buy supplies, to go to the marketplace, go

19 with my parents.

20 Q. Did you have any relatives who lived in Kozarac?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who was that?

23 A. It was my mother and my father.

24 Q. How long had they lived in Kozarac before the attack on Kozarac in

25 May 1992?

Page 4492

1 A. 10 years.

2 Q. Did you regularly visit them in Kozarac?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know Dule Tadic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How long had you known Dule Tadic?

7 A. About 20 years.

8 Q. How did you know him?

9 A. I knew him, I would see him in front of the cafe in the street, on

10 the marketplace, in passing.

11 Q. You said you would see him in front of the cafe. Do you know where

12 his cafe was located?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Where was it located?

15 A. In Kozarac.

16 Q. Where in Kozarac?

17 A. The main street.

18 Q. If you were going on the main street of Kozarac and you were going in

19 the direction of the Mutnik Mosque, what side of the street would Dule

20 Tadic's cafe have been on?

21 A. Mutnik Mosque, on the right-hand side.

22 Q. Do you recall what businesses were across the street from Dule

23 Tadic's cafe?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What businesses?

Page 4493

1 A. There was a hair salon, there was a pharmacy and a textile shop.

2 Q. How far was Dule Tadic's cafe from your parents' home?

3 A. About 150 metres -- I am sorry, 150 metres.

4 Q. You have indicated that you knew where Dule Tadic's cafe was. Did

5 you ever go into that cafe?

6 A. No.

7 Q. If you could give us an average, on average how often would you see

8 Dule Tadic when you went to Kozarac?

9 A. It depended, sometimes twice, sometimes three times, sometimes not at

10 all. It depends on the period of time.

11 Q. Did you know any other members of Dule Tadic's family?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who did you know?

14 A. I knew Mira, his wife Mira.

15 Q. Do you know what she did?

16 A. Yes, she was a nurse who worked in Kozarac.

17 Q. Did you know any other members of his family?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Who was that?

20 A. His mother, Staka.

21 Q. During the time that you saw Dule Tadic as an adult, did you ever see

22 him with a beard?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you ever see him without a beard?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4494

1 Q. On 14th June 1992 were you at your home in Jaskici?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were there other people in the house with you on that day who did not

4 live there with you and your family?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was Subha Mujic staying at your home at that time?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is she related to you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How is she related?

11 A. She is my sister.

12 Q. Why were she and these other people staying at your house at this

13 time?

14 A. I do not understand, why, I do not understand the question.

15 Q. Why was your sister and these other people staying with you in your

16 home at this time?

17 A. I see. They were there because their houses had been set on fire and

18 they were expelled. They were refugees.

19 Q. What villages had these people come from?

20 A. From Brdjani, Kamicani, Softici, Besici.

21 Q. To your knowledge, what was the ethnic composition of these villages?

22 A. Muslim, mostly.

23 Q. On this day, 14th June 1992, were there men, women and children in

24 your house?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4495

1 Q. On that date did men wearing uniforms come to Jaskici?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How did you first become aware that they were in Jaskici?

4 A. When I heard the gunfire.

5 Q. After you heard the gunfire, what happened?

6 A. Three soldiers came to my house and ordered us to come out, all of

7 us.

8 Q. These three soldiers who came to your house, do you recall what they

9 were wearing?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What were they wearing?

12 A. Black uniforms, black clothes.

13 Q. Did you recognise any of these three men?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You indicated that the three men ordered everyone to come out of the

16 house. Did everyone in the house come out?

17 A. Yes, yes, we did come out.

18 Q. Do you recall the names of the men in the house who came out of the

19 house?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What were those men's names?

22 A. Men?

23 Q. Yes, what were their names?

24 A. Bejdo Balic, Sefik Balic, Salko Jaskic, Munib Besic and Sale Softic.

25 Q. Salko Jaskic was your husband. Were you related to Bejdo Balic?

Page 4496

1 A. Yes, that is my father.

2 Q. Were you related to Sefik Balic?

3 A. Yes, that is my brother.

4 Q. Were you related to Munib Besic?

5 A. Yes, that is my uncle.

6 Q. Were you related to Sale Softic?

7 A. No, that is my friend.

8 Q. These other four men, Sale Softic, Munib Besic, what were their

9 ethnic groups?

10 A. Muslims.

11 Q. When you came outside, the men, the women and the children, what

12 happened then?

13 A. Sorry, just a moment. A soldier entered the house, one of them, and

14 he fired around the house and two were with us outside, men and us,

15 women, and children.

16 Q. Then what happened with the men, women and children?

17 A. Men were ordered to come out on to the road, and women and children

18 were ordered to enter the house.

19 Q. So, men were first separated from the women and children?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When the men were first separated from the women and children, where

22 were they told to go or where were they taken, to what position?

23 A. With hands tied behind their neck.

24 Q. All right. If you could look at the picture of your house that is on

25 the overhead projector and if we could see that? If you could take

Page 4497

1 the pointer, please, and if you could show us where the women were

2 told to stand when they were separated. So it was there at the bottom

3 of your steps?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When the men were separated, where were the men taken or told to

6 stay?

7 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph] Here.

8 Q. So there at the edge of your barn?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You may be seated. Thank you. When the men and the women and

11 children were separated, and the men went to this spot near the edge

12 of the barn, do you recall if there was any sand in that area where

13 the men were?

14 A. Yes, yes, there was sand where they were standing.

15 Q. You indicated that at some point after that the men were ordered to

16 go out on to the road and the women and children were ordered to go

17 back into the house?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. As you began to go into the house, what did you see?

20 A. I saw Ismet Jaskic, my brother-in-law, and I saw Hasan, also a

21 relative, I saw them walking by.

22 Q. So you saw Ismet Jaskic and who else?

23 A. Hasan Jakupovic.

24 Q. You said you saw them walking by, what were they doing?

25 A. I saw them chased by Dule Tadic down the road towards my house.

Page 4498

1 Q. You say he was chasing them, he was running after them?

2 A. Yes. Yes, he was following them, going behind them, and he had a

3 stick, a pole, in his hands and he was showing them to move ahead.

4 Q. Did you see him hit them with the stick in his hand?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who did you see him hit?

7 A. Ismet Jaskic.

8 Q. Did you see any injuries or wounds on Ismet?

9 A. Yes, I saw the right side. I could not see what there was. All I

10 saw was blood. I could not see anything, but it seemed as if his

11 whole part of the face -- of that part of the face had disappeared.

12 Q. As you saw Dule Tadic with Ismet and Hasan, in which direction were

13 they going -- towards you or away from you on the road?

14 A. Towards us.

15 Q. What did you see then?

16 A. They were some 20 metres away from me when I saw them first.

17 Q. Then as they approached you did they at some point stop?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did they at some point stop?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When they stopped, approximately how far away from you were they?

22 A. 10 metres.

23 Q. As you saw them coming down the road toward you, what were you able

24 to see of Dule Tadic? Were you able to see the front of him, the side

25 of him? What were you able to see?

Page 4499

1 A. I saw his face, from the front.

2 Q. What was he wearing?

3 A. Camouflage uniform.

4 Q. Do you recall if he had any facial hair on that date?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What did you see after you saw Dule Tadic, Ismet and Hasan stop 10

7 metres away from you? What happened then?

8 A. I saw them come out to the road in front of my house, those five men

9 that I have just listed, how Dule Tadic beats them with that stick.

10 Q. You were still outside when you saw this?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you then go inside your house?

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. If you could look at your house again, the picture of your house, and

15 if you could take the pointer and if you could show the Court where

16 you were when you saw Dule Tadic with Ismet and Hasan and then with

17 the other men?

18 A. I was here in this part here in front of the entrance.

19 Q. So you were on the steps?

20 A. Yes, yes, at the end, at the bottom of the stairs.

21 Q. If I could have this photograph marked as Prosecution Exhibit 290 for

22 identification? Mrs. Jaskic, you may sit down. If that could be shown

23 to the Defence and then provided to the witness?

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What is that, 290?

25 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. Mrs. Jaskic, is that a photograph showing

Page 4500

1 the road as it is taken from your house?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. If that could be placed on the monitor, please? As we look at this

4 photograph, can you tell us whose house it is that is across the road

5 from yours?

6 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph] Ahmed Jaskic's.

7 Q. As we look at the trees and the shrubs in that photograph, on 14th

8 June 1992 were they that high and unkempt?

9 A. No, this was all trimmed down.

10 Q. Could you please take that pointer and point to the place where you

11 first saw Dule Tadic as he came down the road with Ismet and Hasan?

12 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph].

13 Q. Could you move the pointer in the direction they were moving?

14 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph]

15 Q. Could you show us where they stopped?

16 A. Here.

17 Q. So it is near the edge of what appears to be a hedge on the other

18 side of the road?

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. All right. If you could take your seat, please? Your Honour, I

21 would offer Prosecution Exhibits 289 and 290.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

23 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 289 and 290 will be admitted.

25 MISS HOLLIS: Mrs. Jaskic, when you went into the house what did you do?

Page 4501

1 A. I was ordered to lie down, that we all enter the house and lie down

2 on the floor.

3 Q. So you went down on to the floor?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. At some point did you get up and look out the window?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When you got up and looked out the window what did you see?

8 A. I saw Dule Tadic beat my family, my father, brother, husband,

9 brother-in-law, uncle, friend -- my whole family.

10 Q. While Dule Tadic was there beating these men, were there other

11 soldiers there as well?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you recognise any of these other soldiers?

14 A. No.

15 Q. What happened then after you saw Dule Tadic beating your relatives?

16 A. Other soldiers were bringing water and pouring water over them when

17 they would faint. They were .....

18 Q. What did you see after that?

19 A. I saw my brother move nearer to my father, to try to come nearer to

20 my father and he grabbed him by his trousers.

21 Q. When you saw these men out there being beaten, where were they lying?

22 A. On the road in front of my house.

23 Q. In what position were they lying?

24 A. With face down on the sand and hands behind the neck.

25 Q. Did you see any of these men resisting as they were being beaten?

Page 4502

1 A. No.

2 Q. What did you see then after you saw your brother, Sefik, grab on to

3 your father's legs, what did you see next?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What did you see next?

6 A. I saw my father trying to stand up, and I saw Dule strike him again

7 with a stick behind the neck and he fell again.

8 Q. What happened then?

9 A. Then I fell again. My son would not let me go on looking, and he

10 kept me on the floor saying, "Don't look, they are alive" and I said

11 that "None of them were alive". Then he pulled me back to the floor

12 and said, "Mum, they are still alive". So I waited and when I stood

13 up he had made them all move towards Kozarac down the road.

14 Q. When you stood up you looked out the window again?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When you looked out the window what did you see?

17 A. I saw that he was beating Jasmin.

18 Q. Were the men still lying on the road or were the men now gone?

19 A. Up they were standing, those men were standing.

20 Q. Then what did you see after you saw him beating Jasmin?

21 A. I saw them, they had gone down the road, that is, he stayed there

22 beating Jasmin and then Jasmin followed and they all went down the

23 road.

24 Q. You say "he was beating Jasmin", who do you mean?

25 A. Yes, Dule Tadic.

Page 4503

1 Q. You say "they went down the road". In what direction did they go

2 back, towards Huso's house or up the road in the direction of Zijad's

3 house?

4 A. Towards Zijad's house.

5 Q. When you stood in your house looking out the window how far from the

6 window were you?

7 A. 10 metres.

8 Q. You were 10 metres away from your window?

9 A. Two metres.

10 Q. You were two metres away?

11 A. From the wall, two metres away from the wall.

12 Q. How far was Dule Tadic from your house?

13 A. 10 metres.

14 Q. As you looked through the window, did you have a clear view of what

15 was happening outside?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. As you looked through the window from inside the house, what did you

18 see of Dule Tadic? Did you see the front of him, the side of him, the

19 back of him? What did you see?

20 A. The front. I looked him in the face.

21 Q. If you think about this entire incident, both when you were outside

22 and saw Dule Tadic and when you were inside and saw Dule Tadic, in

23 total how long do you think you looked at Dule Tadic during this

24 incident?

25 A. 10 minutes, about 10 minutes.

Page 4504

1 Q. If I could have document 9.15 marked as Prosecution Exhibit 291 for

2 identification? If you could show that to the Defence, please? Mr.

3 Jaskic, could you look at that photograph? Is that photograph a view

4 as seen out of the window that you were looking through that day?

5 A. The window, yes, but it did not look like this.

6 Q. Was there glass in the window on 14th June 1992?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. Could you put that on the overhead, please? If you could again take

9 the pointer and for the Court if you could point to where you saw Dule

10 Tadic as you looked from the window and saw him beat the men on the

11 road?

12 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph].

13 Q. Thank you. You can be seated, please. I tender Prosecution Exhibit

14 291 for identification.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

16 MR. KAY: No objection.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 291 will be admitted.

18 MISS HOLLIS: While you were watching this occurring outside the window,

19 was your sister Subha watching as well?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you recall saying anything to your sister as you were watching

22 Dule Tadic beating your relatives?

23 A. Yes, we said, "Look at our family down there".

24 Q. If you would please look around the courtroom and see if Dule Tadic

25 from Kozarac is in the courtroom?

Page 4505

1 A. Yes, he is over there sitting.

2 Q. Could you tell us what he is wearing?

3 A. That is him. He has a green jacket and a shirt, a tie. That is the

4 man.

5 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I would note the proper identification of the

6 accused.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, the record will reflect the witness identified

8 the accused.

9 MISS HOLLIS: Sometime after the men were taken away, did you go outside

10 your home?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you see anything on the road where the men had been lying?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. After you went outside, did you see any bodies?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Without mentioning the name of anyone, did you recognise any of these

17 bodies?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How many bodies did you recognise?

20 A. Five.

21 Q. How close did you come to these men's bodies?

22 A. Two metres and less.

23 Q. How were you able to recognise these men?

24 A. Their clothes.

25 MISS HOLLIS: If Prosecution Exhibit 285 could be provided to the witness?

Page 4506

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Bos, do you have 285? (Handed).

2 MISS HOLLIS: Mrs. Jaskic, I am going to ask you to look at that list and

3 if you could keep that in front of you, please? If you could look at

4 the list first and, without giving anyone's names, if you could see

5 the men, the five men, whose bodies you recognised and then if you

6 could tell the Court the letter that is next to the names of those

7 men?

8 A. Letter A, letter B, letter C, letter D, letter E.

9 Q. If you could look at that list again and, again without mentioning

10 the names, if you could tell the Court the numbers which are beside

11 the names of the men you know were taken away from Jaskici on that

12 date?

13 A. Yes. No. 1, No. 2, No. 3, No. 4, No. 5, No. 6, No. 7, No. 8, No. 9,

14 No. 10, No. 11, No. 12, No. 13, and No. 14.

15 Q. If that could please be retrieved and returned to the Registry, thank

16 you. Did you ever see Sale Softic again after 14th June?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Where did you see him?

19 A. In Trnopolje camp.

20 Q. Do you recall when it was that you saw him?

21 A. The second day, two days, two days after ----

22 Q. Two days after the incident in Jaskici?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. After you had gone out and seen those bodies, realised what men had

25 been taken from the village, did you become aware of any men who were

Page 4507

1 left in the village? Were there any men at all left in the village?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you recall the names of the men who were left in the village?

4 A. Huso Jaskic remained, Zijad Elkasovic and Munib Jusovic.

5 Q. Do you recall the age of these men?

6 A. They were men of 60, 66, 68, somewhere like that.

7 Q. Did you leave Jaskici later that day and go to Trnopolje camp?

8 A. Yes, that same day we left Jaskici.

9 Q. How long did you stay at Trnopolje camp?

10 A. 10 days.

11 Q. Did you then go on a convoy and eventually reach Bosnian government

12 territory?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Since this day in Jaskici on 14th June, have you ever heard from or

15 been in contact with your husband, your father or your brother?

16 A. Never to date.

17 Q. Have you made any attempts to locate them?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Have those attempts been successful?

20 A. No, they were all in vain, all attempts.

21 Q. Mrs. Jaskic, do you recall being visited by members of this Tribunal

22 in May 1995?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you recall a member of this Tribunal showing you a book of

25 photographs on that date, asking you to look at those photographs and

Page 4508

1 asking if you recognise anyone?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you recognise anyone in those photographs?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who did you recognise?

6 A. I recognised Dusko Tadic.

7 Q. When you were asked if you recognised anyone in that photo book, what

8 was your answer?

9 A. I remained silent.

10 Q. In fact, you indicated you did not recognise anyone, did you not?

11 A. Yes. Yes.

12 Q. If, in fact, you recognised Dule Tadic, why did you say you did not

13 recognise him?

14 A. Yes. I do not know. I had a reaction from fear. I do not know

15 myself. I kind of lost it. I became afraid.

16 Q. Were you later asked by Tribunal personnel about a reaction you had

17 had to one of the photographs you had been shown?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you tell Tribunal personnel at that time that you did not

20 identify Dule Tadic because you were not sure it was him?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You have told this court today that it was Dule Tadic in your

23 village. Why did you tell Tribunal personnel that you were not sure?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Why?

Page 4509

1 A. Simply I was afraid. I had a reaction and then I did not say it.

2 Q. Realising the importance of being absolutely honest with these Judges

3 in this Tribunal, I will ask you again if on 14th June 1992 did you

4 recognise ----

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. --- Dule Tadic as the man in your village beating a man in the

7 village?

8 A. Yes.

9 MISS HOLLIS: No further questions.


11 MISS HOLLIS: Did I tender Prosecution Exhibit 288, your Honour? We are

12 not sure.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No, I do not think so.

14 MISS HOLLIS: At this time I would tender it. That was the photograph of

15 Samir Jaskic's house. In addition to that, your Honour, I am not sure

16 we tendered the video of Sivci. That was Prosecution 283. At this

17 time I would tender that as well.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. 283, I know, was not tendered, well, my records

19 show it was not tendered. What do you show, Mr. Bos?

20 MR. BOS: No, it was not.


22 MR. BOS: No.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to 288?

24 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 288 will be admitted.

Page 4510

1 MISS HOLLIS: While I am still standing, could I ensure that I tendered

2 289?

3 MR. BOS: Yes.

4 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is admitted 289. Regarding 283, that was the

6 video that Mr. Tieger used this morning?

7 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. That was a video clip of Sivci.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to 283?

9 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. 283 will be admitted.

11 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour. No further questions, your Honour.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination, Mr. Kay?

13 Cross-Examined by MR. KAY

14 Q. That is right, Mrs. Jaskic, is it not, you were shown some

15 photographs in a book, was it a year ago?

16 A. I do not understand.

17 Q. Are you receiving any ----

18 A. I do not understand.

19 Q. Perhaps if Mr. Bos can check the channel?

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think she is getting it. Why do you not repeat

21 the question? Why do you not repeat the question, Mr. Kay, and just

22 try again?

23 MR. KAY: Yes, I will. That is right. You were shown a book of

24 photographs, was it a year ago?

25 A. I do not recall the date, but they were showing me photographs.

Page 4511

1 Q. Can you remember when that was? How long ago?

2 A. I do not know how much time passed. I do not know what date it was.

3 Q. When you looked at those photographs, you did not?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. --- identify anyone that you had been ----

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. --- asked ----

8 A. Yes, Dusan. Yes, Dusan Tadic.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Jaskic, wait until Mr. Kay finishes the

10 question and then when he has finished, then you answer. Excuse me,

11 Mr. Kay. Go ahead.

12 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour. [To the witness]: Did there come

13 another occasion when you were questioned about those photographs?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When was that?

16 A. I do not know a single date. I only know 14th June because I

17 remember that exactly. The rest I do not know and I still do not

18 remember it to date. Since the war I do not, I have not, I only

19 remember that date when my husband, my father, my family had been

20 taken away. That remained in my memory, nothing else.

21 Q. Perhaps you can see if you can help me as to when it was you were

22 asked again about the photographs, how long ago from today's date?

23 A. I cannot remember.

24 Q. Do you have a poor memory, Mrs. Jaskic?

25 A. No.

Page 4512

1 Q. When you looked at those photographs, you did not see anyone you

2 recognised, that is right, is it not?

3 A. Yes, no, I recognised Dusan Tadic but I did not react. I was afraid.

4 I was -- I got excited. I had a reaction. I stand behind that.

5 Q. You told someone at the time that you did not recognise Dusko Tadic

6 in those photographs, is that not right?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you not tell an investigator for the Prosecution?

9 A. Could you repeat the question? I do not understand.

10 Q. Did you not tell an investigator for the Prosecution that you did not

11 recognise Dusko Tadic?

12 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I am going to object to this. This is

13 misleading in that she was never asked if she recognised Dusko Tadic.

14 She was asked if she recognised anyone in the photographs.

15 MR. KAY: It might be better if we hear the evidence from the witness

16 rather than what the Prosecution believes to have been said.

17 MISS HOLLIS: Excuse me, your Honour, but on direct examination the

18 question was: "Were you asked if you recognised anyone in the

19 photographs?" and her answer was: "Yes, I was asked that". That is in

20 evidence.

21 MR. KAY: The Prosecution have asked a leading question and sought a

22 reaction from the witness in relation to that question. The Defence

23 are entitled to find out from this witness what was actually said. It

24 seems here that the procedure that has been followed by the

25 Prosecution has provided them with a non-identification and there has

Page 4513

1 been an attempt to try to put this in a positive way, your Honour,

2 which is a proper basis for the Defence to explore what evidence is

3 sought to be brought before the Court by this witness.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The question, I think, the concern that one of the

5 Judges may have is whether or not this witness would have known that

6 it was an investigator -- is that your concern?

7 JUDGE STEPHEN: If you want to find out what was said to her, you should

8 ask her. You are putting things.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Was that your objection, it was misleading?

10 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.

11 MR. KAY: What were you asked when you were shown the book of photographs,

12 Mrs. Jaskic?

13 A. They asked me if I recognised anybody on that photograph and I was

14 surprised when I saw Dusan Tadic, and I got excited and even got

15 scared.

16 Q. The person who asked you that question was who?

17 A. Mr. -- I forget the name. I do not remember the name.

18 Q. Did you know what his job was? Did you know why he was showing you

19 those photographs?

20 A. He showed me the photograph and said if, could I recognise anybody.

21 He did not say whom.

22 Q. At the end of it you said you did not recognise anyone?

23 A. I said that I did not, but then they visited me again and they said

24 why did I not say, and I told them that I got scared.

25 Q. Who visited you ----

Page 4514

1 A. I had a reaction, Mr. -- I cannot recall.

2 Q. Mr. Paepen? Mr. Paepen?

3 A. Paepen, yes.

4 Q. Who visited you again to say, why you did not say? What did they

5 mean by that? Do not look over there, please, Mrs. Jaskic.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, she can look. I do not think the

7 Prosecutor is coaching any answers, but obviously the witness is

8 nervous.

9 MR. KAY: Yes.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will watch Miss Hollis. Miss Hollis was not going

11 to give her any answers. That is for sure.

12 MR. KAY: Yes, I understand that.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I mean, there is no way for her to give her an

14 answer with a nod or whatever, but go ahead.

15 MR. KAY [To the witness]: When they visited you again and said, "Why did

16 you not say?" what did they mean about that?

17 A. If I recognised, why did I not say, and I said that I had a reaction,

18 that I was surprised, that I was scared and that is why I did not say

19 it. If I recognised, I said who it was, why did I not say that?

20 Q. Who were they talking about?

21 A. I said -- they said if I recognised who it was in that picture and I

22 said, "Dusan Tadic".

23 Q. When they came to you the second time, did they have the photographs

24 with them again?

25 A. No.

Page 4515

1 Q. So you did not look at another book of photographs after that first

2 time?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did they tell you which photograph you had not recognised?

5 A. No.

6 Q. When you looked at these photographs, had you seen any news about the

7 arrest of Dusko Tadic in the newspapers or on the television?

8 A. No -- God forbid.

9 Q. Are you sure about that, that you had not seen any programmes about

10 the arrest of Dusko Tadic?

11 A. No, I am sure I did not see any.

12 Q. Have you watched any programmes that have dealt with events ----

13 A. I saw that once. That is enough for me. I want peace. I have had

14 enough.

15 Q. But have you seen any on the news on television whilst other events

16 ----

17 A. No.

18 Q. --- and other events have been ----

19 A. No, I saw that live. I did not see anything after that.

20 Q. But do you watch any television or news programmes?

21 A. I do not watch.

22 Q. Do you watch television at all?

23 A. Sometimes a film or something with the children. I do not have much

24 time. I am not interested at all.

25 Q. You have been asked to look at photographs of Jaskici and the gardens

Page 4516

1 in front of the houses. Of course, when this happened it was a

2 different time of year, was it not? It was in the summer?

3 A. Yes, that was four years ago.

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. That is not now.

6 Q. This road through Jaskici is a road that has hedges alongside it, is

7 that not right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In the summer time there are a lot of leaves on the trees and leaves

10 on those hedges, is that not right?

11 A. Yes, but that hedge was this and because I was standing it, I know.

12 It was, you know, a very low one, you know.

13 Q. As you looked out of that window from your house, can you see the

14 road when you look out? It is not asphalt, is it? It is an unmade

15 road? Can you actually see the lane, the surface of the lane?

16 A. Yes, I saw the road. It is not a real road. It is a Macadam road.

17 I could see it very well.

18 Q. On the right-hand side there is a hedge as you look out of your

19 window, and that is quite a thick hedge, is that not right?

20 A. No, at that time it was not that dense. Now it is, but at that time

21 it was not.

22 Q. But that hedge was to protect the land from the fields? There was a

23 field the other side of the hedge, is that right?

24 A. No, that was a house -- that was my husband's uncle's house.

25 Q. But the area behind that hedge was grass?

Page 4517

1 A. Which side are you referring to?

2 Q. As you look out of your window and on the right-hand side as you look

3 at the photograph?

4 A. Yes. That was the road, at one time it was a real road, but now it

5 has all been grown in because everybody has been expelled. That was a

6 real road, but now it is all grown in to grass and bushes.

7 Q. When you were originally outside and your men who had been in the

8 house were separated from you, can you remember how many soldiers were

9 generally in that area?

10 A. I saw two, one was going with Dule Tadic, there were three in front

11 of my house, so there were five. I do not know about other parts, but

12 this is where I was. I saw them, five soldiers, five Serb soldiers.

13 Q. So the men who had been in your house and were beside the barn, can

14 you recollect when they moved from the front of your house?

15 A. While they were searching the house and looking for arms and

16 shooting, and then they just left and they said, "Let's go", that they

17 should come with them and we should go back into the house.

18 Q. So you went back into the house?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. At that time were the men being moved away from the area where they

21 were originally standing by the barn?

22 A. They were leading the men out, because there were a lot of us outside

23 before we got back into the house.

24 Q. So the soldiers who had come to your house then moved those men on to

25 the road?

Page 4518

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were they just standing there for a period of time or what were they

3 doing?

4 A. They were bringing water to pour over men who were on the ground who

5 were beaten up, so that they could get up so that Dule Tadic could

6 drive them away.

7 Q. Did you know any of the other soldiers who were there?

8 A. I did not.

9 Q. Did you recognise any of the others? You may not have known their

10 names but did you ----

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. --- recognise them?

13 A. No, I saw Dule Tadic and I recognised him and the others I did not

14 recognise. I looked at him the most because he was there because he

15 was beating, so that is why I saw him the most.

16 Q. When you said that the soldiers who came to your house had black

17 uniforms, what did you mean by that?

18 A. Those were black t-shirts, black pants, black bandannas and gloves

19 with no fingertips.

20 Q. The trousers that they wore, can you remember if they were black as

21 well?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were there any markings on these black clothes to indicate anything

24 about the men?

25 A. I do not know. I did not see anything. That is ----

Page 4519

1 THE INTERPRETER: I could not catch that, sorry.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you repeat that please, Mrs. Jaskic? The

3 interpreters did not hear you. Repeat your answer.

4 THE WITNESS: Black clothes, black t-shirts, black pants, black bandanna,

5 a ribbon and black gloves with the finger tips cut off, no fingers

6 that was -- they were bare.

7 MR. KAY: Did they have any weapons with them?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you remember what kind they were? Were you able to identify?

10 A. I am not familiar with weapons. I only know that they were rifles.

11 I am not a soldier. I was not in the army, but it is the weapons that

12 kill, some kind of rifles. I do not know which ones.

13 Q. Dule Tadic, you said, was running down the road with a long stick or

14 pole?

15 A. He did not run. He walked slowly.

16 Q. Was anyone running down the road?

17 A. They were going in front of him and he beat them and my -- he was

18 being beaten and he was staggering from one side of the road to the

19 other.

20 Q. Can you tell us what he was beating them with? What was that

21 implement?

22 A. It was a stake, a wooden stake, like a stick.

23 Q. About how long?

24 A. It was -- I did not measure it but it was about 1.5 metres.

25 Q. Did he have any weapons with him?

Page 4520

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What weapons did you see?

3 A. A rifle, what kind, I do not know, but he had -- he had it slung

4 around on his shoulder and he carried that stake in his hand.

5 Q. Did he have any beret or hat on his head?

6 A. I could not see it. At that time he did not.

7 Q. You were asked about his facial hair.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you describe that for us?

10 A. It was grown in, I do not know how much, so there was a beard. I

11 cannot say exactly but he was, sort of, grown in, unkempt.

12 Q. You were indicating with your fingers by your face then. Are you able

13 to say whether it was a full beard?

14 A. He was -- it was grown in. I did not have time to look at it. I

15 only know it is a beard. I wish I had time to look at it more

16 closely, but I know he had a beard.

17 Q. Did you not have very long to observe him then?

18 A. Yes, I did have enough time.

19 Q. I just asked that because you said you wished you had longer to see

20 about the beard. Is ----

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. --- it the case here that you are describing something that did not

23 take very long at all?

24 A. 10 minutes I was looking at him, at that spot, Dule Tadic. I know

25 Dule Tadic well. That is your opinion. I know what I saw and what I

Page 4521

1 think. I stand by my statement, by my opinion, and what I saw.

2 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that is a convenient moment.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

4 (4.00 p.m.)

5 (The Court adjourned for a short time)

6 (4.20 p.m.)

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, would you like to continue, please?

8 MR. KAY: Thank you. [To the witness]: Can you remember, Mrs. Jaskic,

9 what time this was on 14th June?

10 A. Around 3.00 or half past 3, I do not know exactly, but ----

11 Q. That is in the afternoon?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When you said that you saw Dusko Tadic coming up the lane with the

14 stick, were there any other soldiers with him or was he just on his

15 own?

16 A. There was another soldier.

17 Q. In the lane outside your house, can you remember how many soldiers

18 were there? Can you tell me the number, if you can remember?

19 A. Yes, with Dusan there was the soldier that came with him and another

20 three. Five soldiers there were.

21 Q. Was that the total number of soldiers you saw in the ----

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Outside in the lane how many people from the Jaskici

24 village you described as your family, what was the number of people

25 that were there and on the ground?

Page 4522

1 A. I do not understand you.

2 Q. Your men folk who had been taken and kept in the lane there for that

3 period of about 10 minutes, you say, can you remember how many of them

4 were there?

5 A. Eight.

6 Q. Have you spoken about this case with your sister?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. As far as your sister's name is, can you give that to us, what her

9 name is?

10 A. Subha.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, you may confer as long as you wish. We

13 need some time. Mr. Kay, would you mind repeating your last two

14 questions? As I recall, the questions were, how many soldiers were

15 there in the lane when Mrs. Jaskic saw them. Then the second question

16 was: "How many of your family were out there at that same time?"

17 Would you mind repeating those two questions?

18 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour. I have to repeat these questions to you

19 again, Mrs. Jaskic, for technical reasons. Can you remember how many

20 soldiers were in the lane with the men during the 10 minutes that you

21 were observing it?

22 A. Five soldiers, Serb soldiers.

23 Q. When Dusko Tadic came up the lane with the stick, was he on his own

24 or with any other soldiers?

25 A. There was a soldier, Serb soldier, with him.

Page 4523

1 Q. Can you remember how that soldier was dressed?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you describe that for us, please?

4 A. He was in a camouflage uniform.

5 Q. Can you remember how many men folk from your village of Jaskici were

6 out there in the lane, what the number was?

7 A. Eight. They were lying down.

8 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that is all I ask.


10 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, we have no redirect.

11 Examined by the Court

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Jaskic, I just have one question. When you

13 first came in today and you were taking the oath, it appeared to me

14 that you were having some difficulty reading the words that are on the

15 oath. May I ask you, what is your educational background?

16 A. None.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have no further questions. Miss Hollis, do you

18 have additional questions?

19 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour.


21 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mrs. Jaskic being

23 permanently excused?

24 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Jaskic, you are permanently excused. That means

Page 4524

1 you are free to leave. Thank you for coming.

2 (The witness withdrew)

3 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, the Prosecution will next call Mr. Jos Paepen.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff, do you have something to say at

5 this point?

6 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, your Honour. It is a matter that arises from the

7 examination and cross-examination of the previous witness, that is, we

8 have some hesitation when discussion between the parties and the Bench

9 is also translated, because we feel that the witness might anticipate

10 to what has been discussed when the question is repeated after a

11 ruling from the Bench.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not understand.

13 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We would rather prefer the witness not to understand

14 what is being discussed between either party, that is, counsel and the

15 Bench, the Judges.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What question are you referring to specifically?

17 MR. WLADIMIROFF: For example, the question about shown the photograph,

18 was that a photograph of Dusko Tadic? Then an objection arose. I

19 would say that we have not to exclude the possibility that the witness

20 listening to what the discussion is about may anticipate in the next

21 answer.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I am trying to recall what was the discussion.

23 There was a concern, I know ----

24 MR. WLADIMIROFF: What was exactly the question.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- that one of the Judges had.

Page 4525

1 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Right. So, by the Prosecution it was stated that the

2 right question that was put to the witness was, quote answer, and then

3 the witness hearing all this used exactly the same phrase. So we want

4 to exclude that possibility by not having it translated if any

5 discussion on tactical matters will arise.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me just a minute. May I confer with my

7 fellow Judges? Thank you.

8 (The learned Judges conferred)

9 Mr. Wladimiroff, if you will, you can refer us -- of course,

10 we do not have the transcript -- if you want to, you can handle it

11 tomorrow. We can look at the transcript, we might be able to better

12 follow you and be able to address your concern more fully.

13 In some systems, of course, we approach the Bench to resolve

14 all of these matters as we have talked about among ourselves, and many

15 thought that that is something we should try to avoid as much as

16 possible. Let me just take a look at the transcript and, if you will,

17 you can point us to your concern and then I will be able to answer it

18 directly tomorrow.

19 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you, your Honour.

20 MR. JOS PAEPEN, called.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take the oath that is being

22 given to you?

23 THE WITNESS: Yes. I solemnly declare I will speak the truth, the whole

24 truth and nothing but the truth.

25 (The witness was sworn)

Page 4526

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may be seated thank you.

2 Examined by MISS HOLLIS.


4 MISS HOLLIS: Would you please state your name?

5 A. My name is Paepen Josef.

6 Q. Do you work in the Office of the Prosecutor for the International

7 Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. How long have you worked for the Office of the Prosecutor?

10 A. I work in the Office of the Prosecutor since 1st July 1994.

11 Q. In May 1995 were you working as an investigator?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. On 31st May 1995 did you go to the residence of Draguna Jaskic?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. On that date did you show her a photo book containing 13 photos?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. On that date did you ask her to withhold comment until she had

18 reviewed all 13 photos?

19 A. Yes, I did so.

20 Q. Did you then tell her that if she recognised anyone in the

21 photographs, she should say that or she should also say if she did not

22 recognise anyone?

23 A. When I showed the book to her, I told her, I asked her to withhold

24 every comment until the moment that she had seen all the photos.

25 Q. When she had seen all the photos, what was she to tell you?

Page 4527

1 A. After she saw all the photos of the book, she said that she did not

2 know anyone.

3 Q. Did you turn the pages of the book for her showing her the

4 photographs one by one?

5 A. Yes, I did so.

6 Q. Did she review all 13 photographs?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. As you indicated, she told you that she did not recognise anyone?

9 A. While I was showing the pictures, she did not say anything.

10 Q. At the end when you asked her if she recognised anyone, what did she

11 say?

12 A. That she did not know anyone.

13 Q. While you were showing her the photographs, did Draguna Jaskic have

14 an unusual reaction to any of the photographs?

15 A. Yes, she did. She had -- when I showed her the pictures, the first

16 two, she was nodding her head, and then the third picture, when I

17 showed that picture, she had an immediate reaction. She was tense.

18 Her eyes were growing bigger. She was moving on her chair, and she

19 was like "huh", so expelling forcibly her breath. This was at the

20 third picture. Then the other pictures, there was no reaction until

21 the ninth picture where she was like hesitating, but then she said,

22 "Go on". No reaction any further for the last pictures.

23 Q. Was there only one photograph to which she had such a strong

24 reaction?

25 A. Yes, that was the third picture that I showed her.

Page 4528

1 Q. That was a photograph of whom?

2 A. That was the photograph of Mr. Tadic.

3 MISS HOLLIS: No further questions.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, cross-examination?

5 Cross-Examined by MR. KAY.

6 Q. Mr. Paepen, how long did it take to go through the photo book with

7 her from the first picture to the end picture?

8 A. When I was showing the book to her, I had the book in front of me, on

9 this level, and I was turning the pages one by one, giving her all the

10 time that she needed to see the picture.

11 Q. Did she indicate to you when she wanted the pictures to be turned on?

12 A. As I told, sir, for the first picture she nodded her head. When she

13 nodded her head, at that moment I went further to the second picture.

14 At that time there was the same reaction. She nodded again her head.

15 Then the third picture, since that reaction was the immediate

16 reaction and tensing, she said, "Dalje, go on". At that moment I went

17 on to the following picture, and so on.

18 Q. After picture No. 9, she also told you to go on as well?

19 A. After the picture No. 9 she said also "Go on", but there was only

20 like a slight hesitation.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me. Go ahead, Mr. Kay.

22 MR. KAY: Yes, I stopped there as I could see your Honours conferring.

23 [To the witness]: After you had been through the album, did she ask

24 to look at any photographs again?

25 A. When she went through the pictures, all the pictures, at that moment

Page 4529

1 she said, I asked her the question if she said, had recognised

2 somebody in that album. She said, "No".

3 Q. And did not ask to see any of the photographs ----

4 A. No.

5 Q. --- again?

6 A. No.

7 Q. How long did this take, this process between you and her?

8 A. The whole process of going through the pictures, I would say this

9 would be -- the exact time, I cannot tell you, sir, but it would be

10 around five minutes that she had this to go through the 13 pictures.

11 Q. How long were you with her on this occasion?

12 A. In this occasion, I do not recall the exact time, sir, of that. I

13 cannot tell you that exactly.

14 Q. Did you take any notes at the time as to what happened?

15 A. After that she went through the pictures, I took a note of the whole

16 procedure, what had been, how it had been done and about the reactions

17 that she had had.

18 Q. Right. Does that tell you how long it was, the process, how long you

19 were with her for?

20 A. No, sir, I did not put that in.

21 Q. You did not, for instance, put down when you arrived and when you

22 left her company?

23 A. No, sir, we did not.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. KAY: I have nothing further -- excuse me, your Honour, I am terribly

Page 4530

1 sorry. Your Honour, there are no further questions.


3 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour.

4 Examined by the Court

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Paepen, did you then go back to speak with Mrs.

6 Jaskic?

7 A. I never went back to Mrs. Jaskic. I was only in contact with her for

8 this photospread, your Honour.

9 Q. Do you recall the number of photos in the photo book?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How many?

12 A. 13.

13 Q. I am sure you could not answer this question, but may be so. Let me

14 put it this way: We have received a number of copies -- three, I

15 guess -- of the photo book. As I recall, the photos were arranged

16 differently in the different photo books. By any chance, do you have

17 with you a copy of the photo box that was actually given to Mrs.

18 Jaskic when you met with her in May?

19 A. No, I have not, your Honour. I handed the book over again after my

20 mission to the team who was investigating the case.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Miss Hollis, do you have additional

22 questions?

23 MISS HOLLIS: No additional questions, your Honour, but we have reproduced

24 a copy of that book, if the Court wants it.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think it should come in to make his testimony

Page 4531

1 complete because there is reference to photo books. As I have

2 indicated, there are photo books and photo books. I even asked that

3 when they are submitted they be submitted in a way so that the photo

4 is permanently affixed so that the photo does not come out and,

5 perhaps, the Registry may run into a problem. So, it seems to me that

6 we should have the photo book if we are talking about it, let us have

7 it in evidence.

8 MISS HOLLIS: Do you want the photo book itself or a copy of it?

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The copy of the photo book that this witness showed

10 Mrs. Jaskic. That is what I think is important.

11 MISS HOLLIS: I have this here.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Why do you not show that to the Defence -- or

13 how should we handle this? All I want is a copy, but I want to make

14 sure that the Defence has an opportunity to see what will be coming

15 into evidence.

16 MR. KAY: I agree with your Honour's procedure for this, and so that we

17 all know which particular witness has what sequence of photographs.

18 If a photo copy of that book was provided for the Defence, we would be

19 happy with that.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Then you will offer that without

21 objection as Exhibit No. ----

22 MISS HOLLIS: It will be 292, your Honour.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. 292 will be admitted as a copy of the

24 photo book that was shown to Mrs. Jaskic on May 31st 1995.

25 MR. KAY: I do have a matter arising from your Honour's questioning.

Page 4532

1 Further cross-examined by MR. KAY

2 Mr. Paepen, the photo book that you had shown this witness,

3 Mrs. Jaskic, had you shown that same photo book to other potential

4 witnesses?

5 A. No, sir, I did not.

6 Q. Is this the first time you had been involved in a photo

7 identification through the book?

8 A. With this book, yes, sir, but in this case it was the first time I

9 did.

10 Q. Is it the only occasion that you have been involved with a photo

11 identification in this case?

12 A. Yes, sir, it is.

13 MR. KAY: Thank you.


15 Re-examined by MISS HOLLIS

16 Q. Mr. Paepen, do you know if this photo book was used again after it

17 being shown to Mrs. Jaskic since she did not identify anyone in the

18 book?

19 A. I do not know because I was only for this occasion involved in this

20 investigation.

21 MISS HOLLIS: No further questions.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Mr. Kay?

23 MR. KAY: Nothing arises, your Honour.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Is there any objection to Mr. Paepen being

25 permanently excused?

Page 4533

1 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You are permanently excused. You are free to leave.

3 Thank you for coming.

4 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, your Honour.

5 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, do you wish this book now? May we make a copy

6 of it first?

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think you can go ahead and make a copy of it. My

8 only concern is that the Defence is satisfied that what comes in as

9 292 is the actual photo. I am sure the two of you can work that out.

10 Thank you.

11 MR. KAY: Your Honour, before we go on to another witness a matter of law

12 does arise here. It may be appropriate if we raise that matter now.

13 That concerns the status of this particular evidence with the

14 non-identification at the time by the witness saying that she did not

15 recognise anyone within the particular photo book and the use of the

16 evidence at a later stage by the Prosecution with an explanation or

17 comment by the witness as to her feelings at the time and, indeed,

18 saying that she did recognise. Your Honour heard her evidence earlier

19 this afternoon.

20 Our submission on this matter is that there should be no

21 positive adduction of this evidence before the Court because of the

22 fact that it remains as an unreliable and unsafe identification in all

23 these circumstances.

24 We are concerned about this evidence having been adduced in

25 this form. Within most jurisdictions, it would not have been used.

Page 4534

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you want a ruling? Is that what you want?

2 MR. KAY: I think it would be appropriate for it to be a ruling because it

3 is something that ----

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Not at this point. Actually, I was surprised that

5 you did not object to the testimony of Mr. Paepen. I do not know, I

6 mean, he was giving his view of when she nodded, but it comes in and

7 it goes to the weight. With respect to this whole issue, it is my

8 understanding that you will be calling an expert witness to explain,

9 from your point of view, how these photospreads should be handled.

10 This is one witness, I am sure, that your expert will speak to.

11 MR. KAY: That may well be the case, but it is a matter of law as to

12 whether the evidence is admissible in the first place, when the

13 procedure itself has produced the evidence that the witness said she

14 did not recognise the defendant. We considered whether we should make

15 an objection in advance, but we felt that we would have to tell the

16 Bench what the evidence was going to be and there would have been no

17 point in giving it.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. What you are submitting, I suppose, is a motion

19 to exclude her testimony regarding the photospread book and the

20 testimony of Mr. Paepen as well or just hers?

21 MR. KAY: The two are related.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Both of them?

23 MR. KAY: Yes.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. We will take that under advisement and advise

25 you tomorrow how we will proceed.

Page 4535

1 MR. KAY: Thank you.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, would you like to respond? I am sorry,

3 I just went right over you. Go ahead. What is your position

4 regarding this?

5 MISS HOLLIS: First of all, your Honour, I would suggest that, given these

6 circumstances, we do not have a non-identification. Had the witness

7 responded as she did when shown the photo book, "I do not recognise

8 anyone", and thereafter had continued to say, "I do not recognise

9 anyone", then in my jurisdiction (and I think most jurisdictions)

10 certainly Mr. Paepen would not be able to come on and testify as to

11 her reaction to the photo, to show some type of identification through

12 her reaction.

13 However, this witness has said that, indeed, she did recognise

14 the individual in No. 3. That was consistent with a very observable

15 reaction she had to that photograph. She has come to this court and

16 provided an explanation. Certainly all of those circumstances must be

17 considered in determining what weight you will give to her testimony,

18 but the Prosecution would suggest that there is not a basis in law

19 for striking the testimony itself.

20 JUDGE STEPHEN: Can I ask you something? This was a case of what you

21 would call a recognition witness, was it not?


23 JUDGE STEPHEN: Why was she shown the photo book at all?

24 MISS HOLLIS: Early on in what we were doing with many of these witnesses,

25 your Honour, with the Office of the Prosecutor was still engaged in

Page 4536

1 investigative work as well as identification, as the Defence has

2 pointed out, is in an issue in many of these cases. With all the

3 uncertainties we have in a case such as this, then often recognition

4 witnesses were shown books. I believe we have had other recognition

5 witnesses who were shown books as well. We had not developed a full

6 policy and it was still in part an investigative effort.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, do you have anything to add?

8 MR. KAY: We are entitled to rely on this evidence from the fact that

9 there was no recognition of the defendant by the witness when she

10 considered the photo book. That would have been something we could

11 have adduced through the officer in the case or even through Mr.

12 Paepen.

13 As I understand Mr. Paepen's evidence, it was not that the

14 witness recognised anyone. In fact, it was the contrary. The witness

15 said she did not know anyone within the book. So our submission is

16 that the Prosecution have attempted through the witness to say she did

17 recognise someone, when the evidence at the time was that she did not.

18 That is really our complaint about this matter.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will take a look at the transcript. The reason

20 that I asked Mr. Paepen about the second visit and whether or not he

21 was the person who visited the witness the second time was, as I

22 understood the testimony, that is when she then explained her position

23 and, I gather, did make a recognition through the book although she

24 did not have the book then. What she said is -- Mr. Kay?

25 MR. KAY: Yes, I had asked a specific question whether there was a book.

Page 4537

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exactly, she did not have the book.

2 MR. KAY: Yes.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I understand that. The motion that you have filed

4 regarding the use of the book, as I understand the motion -- it was

5 several weeks ago -- would exclude the use of the photo book if the

6 witness knew Mr. Tadic before ----

7 MR. KAY: Yes.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- under all circumstances. That is a motion that

9 you have indicated that you will hold in abeyance pending the offering

10 of expert witness ----

11 MR. KAY: Yes.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- expert witness on your behalf. So that is, of

13 course, one of the issues that we have to keep in mind. That is what

14 Judge Stephen was talking about, why was the Prosecution even showing

15 them when she has visited Kozarac perhaps three times a week and her

16 parents live 100 and whatever it is metres away from Mr. Tadic's cafe?

17 I think we have the positions of the parties. You want us to

18 exclude this evidence regarding the use of the photo book. That is

19 something that we can talk about and tell you tomorrow after we look

20 at the transcript, if we can.

21 JUDGE STEPHEN: Do you really want to exclude the evidence? I thought you

22 wanted to use the evidence.

23 MR. KAY: No. I was taking it two ways. What I was seeking to exclude

24 was the Prosecution attempt to have a positive identification from

25 their material with a witness giving an inconsistent account on a

Page 4538

1 later occasion.

2 As we are discussing this matter, your Honour, it may be that

3 it would assist your brother Judges and all parties if we did deal

4 with this during Professor Wagenaar's testimony. It might be more

5 appropriate at that stage.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I am certain that you will and you will because one

7 of the major points in your earlier motion that you filed several

8 weeks ago was that that is tainted, the use of the photo book is

9 tainted, if the witness knows Mr. Tadic already. So that is the first

10 thing that I am considering as I heard this witness is, what are the

11 parameters that we should decide on, and even thinking about whether

12 we will listen to this witness's identification. But back to Judge

13 Stephen's point, do you want us to exclude the evidence or do you want

14 us to rule that there was a non-identification in the photospread?

15 MR. KAY: That is the point, your Honour, that there was a

16 non-identification in the photospread.


18 MR. KAY: We would have been entitled to this material under the

19 disclosure rules because it was evidence that went to a matter of

20 concern to the Defence, an inconsistent matter. In those

21 circumstances, the Prosecution would have had to have disclosed it to

22 us and we would have decided how we would have used this particular

23 material. It has come up this way as it is the Prosecution who have

24 been adducing the evidence.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So do you want the Chamber then to rule as to

Page 4539

1 whether or not there was a non-identification by this witness through

2 the use of the photospread? Is that what you want us to do?

3 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: A few minutes ago you said, perhaps, it should be

5 delayed until Dr. Wagenaar.

6 MR. KAY: I was being helpful, your Honour.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You just tell me what you want and we will consider

8 it, that is for sure, this evening.

9 MR. KAY: It occurred to me as we were discussing it that it might be

10 appropriate to deal with all these matters in the one hearing relating

11 to Professor Wagenaar. I will look to my leader for his confirmation

12 on that.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So then we do not have to stay late tonight and

14 consider this? Very good. OK. Miss Hollis, do you understand that?

15 We will just move right along. Would you call your next witness,

16 please?

17 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. We would call Subha Mujic.

18 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, just while this witness is being brought in,

19 there are two matters that you put to me yesterday for reply, one

20 relating to when we anticipate completing the evidence. We anticipate

21 that to be 16th August, Friday 16th August. Your Honours also asked

22 how long after speaking with the Defence witnesses we would need to

23 complete our enquiries concerning our rebuttal of alibi evidence. We

24 would seek three weeks, if that is acceptable to the court.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection from the Defence regarding

Page 4540

1 the three weeks to submit rebuttal evidence?

2 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, it is not.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Then you will have three weeks to submit the

4 rebuttal list of witnesses, as I recall, under the Rules after you

5 complete speaking with the Defence alibi witnesses. We will enter an

6 order to that effect.


8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: August 16th, of course, as has been the case with

9 your listing of witnesses, that does not include any estimate of

10 cross-examination, obviously, because that is not something that you

11 can handle?

12 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Thank you. Miss Hollis, call ----

14 MISS HOLLIS: Subha Mujcic, your Honour.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- Subha Mujic.


17 MRS. SUBHA MUJIC was called

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The Registry has advised me that this witness would

19 need to have the oath read to her.

20 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you state your full name, ma'am?

22 What is your name? Can you hear me?

23 THE WITNESS [In translation] Yes.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you repeat your name, please?

25 THE WITNESS [In translation]: Subha Mujic.

Page 4541

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you please repeat after me? "I"?


3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Repeat your name.

4 THE WITNESS: Mujic Subha.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: "Solemnly declare".

6 THE WITNESS: Solemnly declare.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: "That I will speak the truth".

8 THE WITNESS: I will speak the truth.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: "The whole truth".

10 THE WITNESS: The whole truth.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: "And nothing but the truth".

12 THE WITNESS: And nothing but the truth.

13 (The witness was sworn)

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You understand you are taking this or making this

15 declaration this oath and that by doing so you are attesting that you

16 will tell the truth today, is that your understanding, Mrs. Mujic?

17 A. Yes.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

19 Examined by MISS HOLLIS

20 Q. Mrs. Mujic, would you tell us your date of birth, please?

21 A. 7th December.

22 Q. What year?

23 A. '47.

24 Q. Were you born in Brdjani?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4542

1 Q. Is Brdjani near the town of Kozarac?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How far is Brdjani from the town of Kozarac?

4 A. One kilometre.

5 Q. Did you live in Brdjani until 26th May 1992?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. On 26th May 1992 did you go to Trnopolje detention camp?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. After several days at Trnopolje detention camp were you allowed to go

10 to the home of your sister in Jaskici?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What is your sister's name who lives in Jaskici?

13 A. Draguna.

14 Q. What is her last name?

15 A. Jaskic.

16 Q. Mrs. Mujic, what is your ethnic group or nationality?

17 A. Muslim.

18 Q. Mrs. Mujic, during the time you were growing up and then living in

19 Brdjani as an adult did you ever go to the town of Kozarac?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. How often would you go to the town of Kozarac?

22 A. Twice a week.

23 Q. Why would you go there?

24 A. I went when there was a market and I went to my mother's on

25 Saturdays.

Page 4543

1 Q. So your mother lived in the town of Kozarac?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you know Dule Tadic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How long had you known him?

6 A. Before the war about four years.

7 Q. How did you know him?

8 A. We knew him. My son told me that he was karate trainer.

9 Q. Did you know of any businesses that he had in Kozarac?

10 A. He worked that karate and he had a cafe.

11 Q. Do you know where that cafe was located?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And where was that?

14 A. In Kozarac. When you go down Marsala Tita Street, down towards the

15 road, Banja Luka/Prijedor Road, on the left-hand side.

16 Q. So as you are going down the main street toward the Banja

17 Luka/Prijedor Road Dule Tadic's cafe is on the left?

18 A. No, no, down Marsala Tita Street.

19 Q. Toward the Banja Luka/Prijedor Road?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. His cafe is on the left?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you recall what businesses are across from that cafe?

24 A. There is a hair salon, a barber's salon and a medicine, I cannot, oh,

25 yes, the pharmacy and a textile shop.

Page 4544

1 Q. When you would go to Kozarac to visit your mother and to do your

2 shopping, on average how often would you see Dule Tadic in Kozarac?

3 A. I would sometimes see him weekly, sometimes every other week.

4 Q. Did you know him to see him?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you ever socialise with Dule Tadic?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you ever go to his cafe?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you know any other members of his family?

11 A. I knew the mother and the wife.

12 Q. What was the wife's name?

13 A. Mira.

14 Q. What was the mother's name?

15 A. Staka.

16 Q. Do you recall when you last saw Dule Tadic before the attack on

17 Kozarac?

18 A. Maybe a month before.

19 Q. During the four years that you knew Dule Tadic to see him, did you

20 ever see him with a beard?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. This month or so before the attack on Kozarac when you saw Dule

23 Tadic, do you recall whether or not he had facial hair at that time?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What do you recall, did he have facial hair or did he not?

Page 4545

1 A. Yes. Yes, he had a beard.

2 Q. On 14th June 1992 where were you?

3 A. In the village of Jaskici.

4 Q. Did you visit Jaskici often?

5 A. Yes, I did, once a month, once every two months, depending on the

6 free time that I had.

7 Q. On 14th June when you were in Jaskici at whose house were you?

8 A. At Salko Jaskic's.

9 Q. Why were you there at your sister's?

10 A. Yes, I was there in my sister's house, because I did not have another

11 place. I could not be at my home in Brdjani.

12 Q. What had happened to your home in Brdjani?

13 A. It was shelled and the house was set on fire.

14 Q. This area of Brdjani where you lived, what was the nationality of the

15 inhabitants there?

16 A. Muslims.

17 Q. If the witness could be provided with Prosecution Exhibit 289,

18 please. Mrs. Mujic, do you recognise what is shown on that

19 photograph?

20 A. I recognise it.

21 Q. Whose house is that?

22 A. This is my sister's house.

23 Q. And the house of Salko Jaskic?

24 A. Yes, and of Salko Jaskic.

25 Q. On 14th June 1992 were there men, women and children in that house?

Page 4546

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. On that date did men wearing uniforms come to Jaskici?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. How did you first become aware that they had come to Jaskici?

5 A. When they drove us out we saw that it was the military, the army.

6 Q. You say they drove you out, what happened?

7 A. Yes, they took us out. They lined up the men and us they put

8 alongside the house, and one soldier came into the house and shot

9 around the house, and they said that they would shoot anybody who

10 would go and see. The men were driven down the road and we were

11 returned back into the house.

12 Q. If could I stop you there for a moment. You said that you were taken

13 outside the house and the men were separated from the women and

14 children?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When the men were separated from the women and children where were

17 the women told to stay?

18 A. Yes, next to the house.

19 Q. Where were the men told to stay?

20 A. The men were lined up near the garage at a heap of sand.

21 Q. If we could have that photograph put on the overhead projector. Mrs.

22 Mujic, if you could take the pointer that is there and if you could

23 point to where the women and children were told to stay. If you could

24 point on the overhead projector, please.

25 A. Here is where women and children were standing.

Page 4547

1 Q. If you could also point to where the men were taken to stand near the

2 pile of sand.

3 A. Here, this is where men were next to that sand.

4 Q. Can you point to the building that you called the garage?

5 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph]. The garage is where the

6 car went into the garage.

7 Q. So that is to the far left on the photograph as you look at it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. When you were outside and the men and the women were

10 separated, you were then ordered to go back into the house, is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. As you went into the house could you see what was being done with the

14 men?

15 A. Yes, I saw they beat them.

16 Q. You saw this while you were still outside?

17 A. Yes. Yes.

18 Q. Did you recognise anyone who was beating the men?

19 A. Yes, I recognised Dule Tadic.

20 Q. Did you recognise the men who were being beaten?

21 A. Dule Tadic I recognised, he beat them.

22 Q. And whom did he beat?

23 A. It was Bejdo Balic that Dule Tadic beat, Salko Jaskic, Bejdo Balic,

24 Munib Softic and Ismet Jaskic and Hasan Jakupovic.

25 Q. Now had you known ----

Page 4548

1 A. And Jasmin.

2 Q. Do you know Jasmin's last name?

3 A. I do not know his last name.

4 Q. Do you know his mother's name?

5 A. Zemka.

6 Q. Now after you saw Dule Tadic beating these men did you then go into

7 the house?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. While you were outside and you saw Dule Tadic doing this, did you

10 have a clear view of Dule Tadic?

11 A. Yes, I saw clearly and surely.

12 Q. Do you recall what Dule Tadic was wearing?

13 A. A camouflage uniform.

14 Q. Do you recall whether at that time he had facial hair or he was clean

15 shaven?

16 A. He had a beard.

17 Q. Do you recall what he was beating the men with?

18 A. I do not know. I do not -- I do not understand that, whether he had

19 a rifle or something like this, I do not know, a rifle, and then he

20 beat with that and with his boots, with his feet.

21 Q. When you went back into the house what did you do?

22 A. Then they told us not to look, but I had to look because it was our

23 family. So I looked and I thought let them kill me too. Then I

24 watched as he beat them until they fell unconscious.

25 Q. Who did you see beating the men?

Page 4549

1 A. Dule Tadic.

2 Q. When you were inside watching this, you were watching through a

3 window?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. If you can tell us, do you know how far you were away from that

6 window?

7 A. We were from the window maybe about this much, this distance. I do

8 not know if it is one metre, a metre and a half, two metres. I was so

9 scared I was not thinking about that and I did not think that I would

10 survive at all.

11 Q. So you were close to the window when you were watching this?

12 A. Yes. Yes.

13 Q. Could you see clearly through the window?

14 A. Yes, I could see clearly.

15 Q. When you looked through the window and saw these beatings that were

16 occurring, where were the men that had been taken out of your house?

17 A. They were led outside and they had to hold their hands like this, and

18 then they were beaten.

19 Q. When they were being beaten where were they at that point? Were they

20 still in the yard or had they been moved somewhere else?

21 A. No. No, outside. They had them lie down and they had to have their

22 hands over their heads.

23 Q. Where was it that they made them lie down?

24 A. It was on the road behind the fence.

25 Q. What did you see after you saw Dule Tadic beating the men?

Page 4550

1 A. Then what I saw is they jumped over the fence and he ordered to pour

2 water on them so they would get up, and then the soldiers went over to

3 Ahmed's house and then they brought water to pour over them.

4 Q. You say they jumped over the fence. What fence are you talking

5 about?

6 A. Yes, there was a fence on the yard at my sister's house and then

7 there was a road. They were on the side of the road. They did not

8 open anything. They just jumped over. So that one just crossed or

9 jumped over and poured the water over them, so that they would come

10 to, the water that we used for laundry.

11 Q. Then you said you saw them go to Ahmed's house?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. That was Ahmed. What was his last name?

14 A. Jaskic.

15 Q. If the witness could be shown Prosecution Exhibit 291, please. If

16 the previous Exhibit could be retrieved for the Registrar. Mrs.

17 Mujic, do you recognise the view through that window?

18 A. I recognise it. This is the window of my sister's from which we were

19 looking.

20 Q. If that could be placed on the overhead projector, please. Could you

21 take the pointer again, Mrs. Mujic, and could you point to where Dule

22 Tadic was beating the men as you looked out the window?

23 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph]. We were watching from

24 here and this is where he was. There is the road, there behind. This

25 is Ahmed's house towards Huso Jaskic and on that road there was a

Page 4551

1 fence there, and this is where they jumped over this soldier and this

2 is where Dule beat them.

3 Q. You say there was a fence there. What side of the road was the fence

4 on? Was it on Ahmed's side or on Salko's side?

5 A. On Salko's side there was an iron fence and on Ahmed's side it was a

6 wooden fence. So they jumped over Salko's fence and came to the well

7 and there was a trough behind this well.

8 Q. This iron fence, were you able to see over or through that fence?

9 A. That fence was a low one, not high, because we were looking and it

10 was an iron fence like this.

11 Q. So you were able to look over that fence?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you actually see the men led away on that road?

14 A. Yes, I saw it.

15 Q. If you could take the pointer and if you could show us the direction

16 in which they were led.

17 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph] Up this road towards those

18 houses up there and towards Kozarac. That is where the road leads.

19 This is the road, then Huso Jaskic's house next to it and then the

20 houses that come next. It is all up towards Kozarac. As they were

21 taken, then we have not seen or heard from them since.

22 Q. Could you please at this time look around the courtroom and tell you

23 us if you see Dule Tadic

24 from Kozarac in the courtroom?

25 A. I see.

Page 4552

1 Q. Could you tell us where he is sitting and what he is wearing?

2 A. I can tell you, between these two policemen, a green jacket and a

3 cream collar shirt and a tie.

4 Q. Is that the man that you saw in Jaskici on 14th June 1992?

5 A. Yes. Yes, that is the man.

6 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, if I could note a correct identification of the

7 accused.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, the record will reflect that the witness

9 identified the accused.

10 MISS HOLLIS: Mrs. Mujic, when you were inside that house looking out and

11 watching Dule Tadic beating the men, was your sister also in that room

12 with you?

13 A. Yes, she was.

14 Q. Was she also looking out at the road?

15 A. Yes, she was.

16 Q. Do you recall her saying anything to you as you both looked out of

17 the road?

18 A. I remember. I remember.

19 Q. What did she say to you?

20 A. She told us, "Look, Dule Tadic is killing all of the family, the

21 husband, the father, the brother, everybody", and I said, "Yes".

22 Q. After the men had gone that day, did you then go outside?

23 A. Yes, we did.

24 Q. Without giving any names of anyone, did you see bodies in Jaskici?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4553

1 Q. You said that the men that were taken away that day you have never

2 seen again?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Your relatives were taken away as well?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Which of your relatives were taken away?

7 A. Bejdo Balic, Sefik Balic, Salko Jaskic, Munib Besic and Salih Softic

8 and Ismet Jaskic, Hasan Jakupovic.

9 Q. Have efforts been ----

10 A. Jakupovic.

11 Q. Have efforts been made, have you made efforts to find your relatives?

12 A. Yes, we did.

13 Q. After the events that occurred in Jaskici did you leave Jaskici that

14 day?

15 A. Yes, we did.

16 Q. You indicated that Salih Softic was a relative of yours. Did you see

17 him after the incident at Jaskici?

18 A. No.

19 Q. After you left Jaskici, did you go to Trnopolje?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And were you later put on a convoy and eventually went to Bosnian

22 government territory?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Mrs. Mujcic, to your knowledge on 14th June 1992 were your father or

25 brother a member of any military or paramilitary organisation?

Page 4554

1 A. No.

2 Q. To your knowledge on that date did they have any weapons?

3 A. No.

4 MISS HOLLIS: No further questions.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will adjourn until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.

6 (5.30 p.m.)

7 (The court adjourned until the following day).