Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4766




4 Wednesday, 7th August 1996

5 (10.00 a.m.)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, are you ready to continue with Mr.

7 Jakupovic?

8 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. Just before I call him in, your Honours, I have a copy

9 of the letter that we sent to the International Police Task Force, and

10 their reply in relation to the use of the facilities in Banja Luka and

11 our attempt to interview the Defence witnesses there which was raised

12 in the motion that was discussed earlier. I have a copy for your

13 Honours and I will hand that to you. The letter and its reply are

14 self-explanatory.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I am so anxious I do not know that I want to wait to

16 read the letter. What do they say, yes or no?


18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. I do not need to read the letter then. Of

19 course, I will read the letter. Do you have anything to report,

20 either Mr. Kay or Mr. Orie, on this situation, not the letter so much?

21 The Chamber had decided that at the request of the Defence we would

22 have a recess at the conclusion of the Prosecutor's case in chief.

23 The estimate of the Prosecutor when we last spoke was that they would

24 finish August 14th but that, of course, does not include any time for

25 cross-examination. My guess would be probably the last week of August

Page 4767

1 maybe we will conclude, but you, lawyers, know better than I.

2 MR. KAY: Yes.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then we had decided, the parties had decided, that

4 that time would be used for the Prosecutor to interview alibi

5 witnesses and the Defence would be present. Mr. Niemann had suggested

6 that that period in September might cause some problems because the

7 election is 18th. He had heard there might be some difficulties in

8 terms of just access to people and the conditions that might or might

9 not exist there.

10 MR. KAY: Yes.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you have any information?

12 MR. KAY: I can probably assist the Court. I have been talking to the

13 Prosecution during this week over the timing for the conclusion of the

14 case. We are all of the view that it should end Friday week.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That would be ----

16 MR. KAY: I think it is 16th.


18 MR. KAY: It is Friday, 16th. There may be a trickle over into the

19 following Tuesday and we have made arrangements on our side that we

20 will be leaving here on Saturday, two of us from the Defence team, to

21 go to Banja Luka. Mr. Wladimiroff will be going over slightly later

22 just to deal with the eventuality if the case does go over into that

23 week after 16th, and he can handle any witnesses that are to be dealt

24 with.

25 We are making our arrangements so that Ms. De Bertodano and myself

Page 4768

1 are there for a week to do a final review and round up of witnesses

2 and advising them of the procedures as well as continuing our

3 investigations. We still have about 10 or 12 more witnesses who need

4 interviewing over there and documents to get hold of. Mr.

5 Wladimiroff's stay will overlap ours, so that he is there for a few

6 days longer to deal with any further eventualities. On a practical

7 level, it really does seem that a break between the two cases is

8 highly desirable. I know the Prosecution would probably welcome it in

9 relation to their investigations, but to enable the Defence case to

10 function at all as we have no control over our witnesses, them not

11 being close to hand. If the Court was receptive to a three-week break

12 that may even be more helpful, to start somewhere around about 10th

13 September.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That was just what I was going to ask you, just how

15 much time then were you thinking about? You have no information on

16 the feasibility of your interviewing witnesses at that time?

17 MR. KAY: We are going to attempt it the week after the trial, and we will

18 see what we can do. We will, of course, keep the Court informed of

19 all developments.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Judge Stephen reminds me that we will be meeting

21 with the Deputy Registrar this Thursday, tomorrow, they have returned,

22 and I have spoken in passing really, but we will have more information

23 at least regarding their efforts on a number of matters. Does the

24 Defence plan on submitting a motion to dismiss as to any of the counts

25 at the close of the Prosecutor's case in chief?

Page 4769

1 MR. KAY: There may well be. We have talked about this and we thought

2 that the opportunity would be to submit a motion between a break in

3 the cases, so that the Court was able also to consider the matter

4 prior to the Defence case starting, and that would help perhaps narrow

5 the issues that have to be tried.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Or just eliminate all of the issues if you are very

7 successful, you know!

8 MR. KAY: One is ever hopeful.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I did want to know whether that was your plan.

10 MR. KAY: Yes.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That would be helpful if we heard argument then on

12 that before the recess, that is what you are saying, then of course we

13 would consider whatever your submissions were during the recess and

14 the Prosecutor's response.

15 MR. KAY: Yes. I do not see us being able to achieve such a brief before

16 the recess, because of the volume of work that is required. It is

17 really all hands to the pumps, as far as we are concerned, in

18 presenting the case at the moment as well as concentrating on the

19 Defence side.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, so then you would be submitting a written brief

21 and the Prosecutor would respond. You are suggesting we consider that

22 during the recess?

23 MR. KAY: Yes.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, very good. Yes, Mr. Niemann, you are ready to

25 proceed with Mr. Jakupovic?

Page 4770

1 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good, thank you.

3 MR. ADIL JAKUPOVIC, recalled

4 Examined by MR. NIEMANN, continued.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You will not submit a written brief before the

6 recess. You will submit it at some point so we can consider it

7 during the recess though?

8 MR. KAY: Yes.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So that we will be able to consider it before we

10 resume the case again in September?

11 MR. KAY: That is what we had aimed to do. We are delegating tasks at the

12 moment amongst the team.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Thank you. Mr. Jakupovic, you are still

14 under oath, do you understand that, the oath that you took yesterday

15 to tell the truth? You are still under that oath. Do you understand

16 that, Mr. Jakupovic?

17 THE WITNESS [In translation]: Yes.


19 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Jakupovic, at the conclusion of the hearing yesterday

20 afternoon you were telling the Chamber about a meeting that you had

21 had with Mr. Tadic and a gentleman who said that he came from Velika

22 Kladusa concerning your house in Kozarac. Do you remember that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. During the course of this conversation did anyone suggest to you that

25 you should leave the camp and go away with them to some place in order

Page 4771

1 to sign up relating to this transfer of the house?

2 A. I am sorry, before that it was not a sale, it was an exchange, you

3 see.

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. I was not to sell but to exchange.

6 Q. No. Was there any suggestion that this should have been put formally

7 into some sort of writing or that there should be some document that

8 you should sign and that you should go away and do that?

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. Who suggested that to you?

11 A. It was suggested both by Tadic and the other one to go and put down

12 the contract on paper because he could not go to his place and I could

13 not go to mine, so that we should have papers, this man said, so that

14 I would not be given a barn instead of a real house, it would be good

15 to do it, which I refused because I could not and I said that, whoever

16 other people were. Had I been ordered to do that, I would have.

17 Q. Why did you refuse?

18 A. Well, it was war. One could be killed any moment and I guess it was

19 the desire for life, fear.

20 Q. So you were afraid to leave the camp, was that the situation?

21 A. Sure, I did not leave it even for a millimetre.

22 Q. What happened then when you said you would not go with them to sign

23 the paper?

24 A. Nothing. The two of them left and I went to the school.

25 Q. Can you tell me how Dusko Tadic was dressed on this occasion?

Page 4772

1 A. Camouflage uniform.

2 Q. What was the predominant colour in the camouflage uniform that he had

3 on?

4 A. Why, camouflage uniform with a blue foundation.

5 Q. Do you recall whether he had any arms in his possession at the time?

6 A. I believe they had, that both of them had automatic rifles.

7 Q. Did Mr. Tadic have a hat or any form of head wear at the time that you

8 can recall?

9 A. Believe me, I do not remember whether he had a cap ----

10 Q. Do you recall whether ----

11 A. --- or perhaps in his hands or at the belt, I am not sure.

12 Q. When you say the "belt", do you mean the hat may have been tucked in

13 the belt?

14 A. Yes, either tucked in the belt or in his hands or on the head, I do

15 not remember.

16 Q. Do you recall whether Mr. Tadic had a beard on this occasion or was he

17 clean shaven?

18 A. He did not have a beard, but he was not quite clean shaven. It could

19 have been a day's growth perhaps, something like that.

20 Q. Did he have any insignia or markings on the clothing to indicate to

21 whom he was attached, to what organisation he was attached?

22 A. On his sleeve he had "police", that is, milicija in Cyrillic.

23 Q. The other gentleman that was with Mr. Tadic that spoke to you and who

24 said he had come from Velika Kladusa, how was he dressed?

25 A. He also had a camouflage uniform on, but I believe it was an army one.

Page 4773

1 Q. Thank you. I would like to show you some photographs, if I may?

2 First of all, could you just look at this photograph that I show you

3 and I would like it to be marked for identification No. 301? Would

4 you just look for me for the moment, please, Mr. Jakupovic, at the

5 photograph that I am now showing you and can you tell me whether you

6 recognise the building that is shown in that photograph?

7 A. Yes, I do know this building very well. This is the primary school at

8 Trnopolje, and the building of the co-operative on the other side, as

9 a matter of fact, the cinema hall with the gymnasium.

10 Q. I would ask if that photograph could be put on the overhead projector?

11 Mr. Jakupovic, I am going to ask you again with the pointer to point

12 to the various buildings that you have just described. Thank you.

13 Can you just describe the buildings in that photograph again, please,

14 pointing to them with the pointer? When you point with the pointer,

15 just leave the pointer on the building long enough so that we can see

16 it.

17 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph]. This is the north part of

18 the school. This is the entrance into the gymnasium. This is the

19 hall and this is the co-operative, where the co-operative premises

20 were, and the hall and this is the chimney of the boiler room.

21 Q. Thank you. I tender that, your Honour.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

23 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 301 will be admitted.

25 MR. NIEMANN: Would you now look at the next photograph that I show you?

Page 4774

1 Might it be marked 302? That is photograph 40/13 for the Defence.

2 [To the witness]: Do you recognise the photograph that you have now

3 been shown, Mr. Jakupovic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 A. This building is a building materials store which was within the

7 confines of the Trnopolje camp and the transformer substation also was

8 there across the school and the rest.

9 Q. Might that be placed upon the screen, please? Just with the pointer

10 again, Mr. Jakupovic, very slowly would you point to the area which

11 the camp was contained in?

12 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph]. The area, this part from

13 above, comes the road from Kozarac to the railway station. This part

14 goes to Prijedor and this is the transformer substation. This again

15 belonged to the co-operative before, it was the shop selling building

16 materials, and in the background you can see the school.

17 Q. Thank you. Can you recall whether at any stage when you were at the

18 camp there were any guard posts or checkpoints in this vicinity?

19 A. Yes, there were.

20 Q. Where were they?

21 A. As far as I could see, I mean, entering from Prijedor, I think that

22 this, next to this house was one of the checkpoints. Another one was

23 somewhere here on this road towards the railway station. There is a

24 junction immediately behind it. There was one and then one in the

25 direction of Kozarac ----

Page 4775

1 Q. You need to go much slower ----

2 A. --- and that is where they were.

3 Q. --- otherwise we do not follow.

4 A. One of the points was here on the Prijedor road, around this house

5 ----

6 Q. Thank you. Just stop for a moment.

7 A. --- towards Prijedor.

8 Q. The next one? Perhaps you would point to the next one and just stop

9 leaving the pointer there?

10 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph]. The second one was here or

11 perhaps a little bit further away because there are two more roads

12 here, one leading to the railway station and the next one runs in

13 parallel with the railway tracks, so there was one of the points.

14 Q. Stopping there. The next one that you pointed to, could you put the

15 pointer there and leave your pointer at that spot?

16 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph]. The next one was on the

17 road leading to Kozarac.

18 Q. Thank you very much. I tender that, your Honour.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

20 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 302 will be admitted.

22 MR. NIEMANN: Might you look at the next photograph that I show you, 303,

23 and might that be marked for identification 303? Mr. Jakupovic, do

24 you recognise that photograph?

25 A. Yes, I know, that is the old co-operative building with the cinema

Page 4776

1 theatre in Trnopolje.

2 Q. Might that be placed upon the screen, please? Just looking at that

3 photograph, Mr. Jakupovic, were prisoners kept in any part of this

4 building from what you remember of the time when you were in the camp?

5 A. The cinema theatre, this part, that was full.

6 Q. Thank you. I tender that photograph, your Honour.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

8 MR. KAY: No objection.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 303 will be admitted.

10 MR. NIEMANN: I would ask you, please, to have a look at the next

11 photograph. Might it be marked 304? Just looking at that photograph,

12 Mr. Jakupovic, do you recognise the building that is shown in that

13 photograph?

14 A. This could be the northern side of the school in Trnopolje.

15 Q. Are you uncertain about that?

16 A. There is no fence here, now that was there -- oh, I am sorry, there

17 is, yes, yes, there is a fence. That is the northern part of the

18 school of Trnopolje. There is a very small fence ----

19 Q. OK.

20 A. --- of wire fence.

21 Q. Could you put that, please, on the screen? I tender that photograph,

22 your Honour.

23 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 304 will be admitted.

25 MR. NIEMANN: Might the map that I have just handed to the usher please be

Page 4777

1 marked for identification 305? Mr. Jakupovic, I would ask you to look

2 at the map that you have now been shown. Would you please familiarise

3 yourself with it and tell me if you recognise the markings on the map,

4 if you recognise that map?

5 A. Yes, yes, I recognise it.

6 Q. Might the map be placed upon the screen, please? Mr. Jakupovic, I am

7 going to ask you to point to the various localities on that map, but

8 when I ask you to do it, would you please put the pointer there and

9 leave it for the time being so everyone can have a good look at it?

10 Firstly, could you point to the location of where the school was at

11 Trnopolje, as part of the camp?

12 A. The school was here, this part.

13 Q. That is where the initials "SK" are, is that right, "SK"?

14 A. "SK", yes, but that is a complex. There is a new school. There is a

15 co-operative building. There is a store, the buildings supplies

16 store.

17 Q. Are they all on the left-hand side of the yellow road as you look at

18 the plan, as you look at it?

19 A. Yes, yes, when you go from the railroad station to the left.

20 Q. I will ask you to point, please, to the railway station?

21 A. The railroad station here.

22 Q. That is towards the bottom of the map immediately above the "C" in the

23 word "Kozarac". Can you point to the fish farm, please, where the

24 fish farm was located?

25 A. The fish farm and it continues down, about nine to 10 kilometres by

Page 4778

1 three kilometres about.

2 Q. What was the name of the fish farm, do you recall?

3 A. Sanicani.

4 Q. Can you point, please, to the road that goes to Kozarac?

5 A. From the railway station, the road up to Kozarac, six kilometres.

6 Q. Can you point to the road that goes to Prijedor, the old road?

7 A. In this part there is this old road, that is the old road, and the new

8 one is up there, north.

9 Q. Can you point to the road that goes to Omarska?

10 A. It goes along the tracks.

11 Q. Thank you. For the sake of the transcript, your Honour, might it be

12 noted that the witness pointed to the yellow road leading from the

13 bottom centre of the map to the top of the map, the road to Prijedor

14 being the road from the bottom centre of the map to the top left-hand

15 side of the map, and the road to Omarska being the road from the

16 bottom centre of the map to the right-hand bottom corner.

17 JUDGE STEPHEN: Mr. Niemann, I suppose there is no explicable reason why

18 Trnopolje never appears by name on any of these maps?

19 MR. NIEMANN: I do not know the answer to that, but I will ask the

20 witness. He may know, your Honour.

21 JUDGE STEPHEN: No, he will not.

22 MR. NIEMANN: I do not know, your Honour. I might indicate, your Honour,

23 that written right across the map starting from the top left-hand

24 corner down is the word "Trnopolje", but whether that means the

25 region, I do not know.

Page 4779

1 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is an area with multiple villages.

2 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. I tender that map.

3 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 305 will be admitted.

5 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Jakupovic, when you were living in Kozarac, during the

6 time that you lived there, did you make application, apply for and

7 obtain a driving licence?

8 A. Driver's licence I got in 1970. I took the course and I did, that was

9 in 1970, I do not know exactly the month. It was summer, June or

10 July, when I passed the test.

11 Q. Up until when, approximately, did you keep that driving licence valid?

12 A. I do not remember exactly whether I was extending it or not, but I

13 know that it had expired a long time ago, and I was building a house

14 and I decided not to ever get a car -- I had my reasons -- so that I

15 did not extend it. I do not know what you are interested in.

16 Q. Would you please look at this which I now show you? Perhaps it might

17 be marked for identification 306? Perhaps the licence could be marked

18 306A and the document that is with it marked 306B? Your Honours, I am

19 a bit concerned, I am not sure that if the sticker is placed on the

20 document it may damage the document. So if it, perhaps, could be

21 placed on the accompanying document, that may be better? Perhaps the

22 witness could be shown just 306A, not B, 306A? Mr. Jakupovic, would

23 you look at the document that I have now shown you, 306A, and can you

24 tell me, do you recognise it?

25 A. Yes, that is my driving licence.

Page 4780

1 Q. Does this driving licence contain the date of its expiration, the date

2 that it expired?

3 A. Yes, it says 12.6.85.

4 Q. Yes, so 12th June 1985?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. NIEMANN: I tender the licence, your Honour.

7 JUDGE STEPHEN: What is the possible relevance of that?

8 MR. NIEMANN: This licence was found in the premises of Mr. Tadic ----


10 MR. NIEMANN: --- in Germany. I tender the licence, your Honour.

11 MR. KAY: No objection.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 306A will be admitted. B has not been

13 identified yet, has it, Mr. Niemann?

14 MR. NIEMANN: No, that is the document from the German police, if it could

15 be marked for identification, I will tender it at some subsequent

16 stage.

17 Mr. Jakupovic, the licence that you have just seen, your licence,

18 when did you last see this document, apart from now and when it was

19 shown to you by both the German police and by myself?

20 A. Maybe after, or maybe a year or two after its expiration date. I was

21 planning on extending it, but when I realised that there was a medical

22 test and other tests, then I decided that I am not going to extend it

23 or buy the car or anything. So I just kept it like that.

24 Q. Do you know where you kept it, Mr. Jakupovic?

25 A. I had two boxes, one tin one, and there was all my documentation. In

Page 4781

1 which one of the two it was, I rarely was looking. My wife usually

2 kept it and ordered it there. It was in one of those two boxes with

3 the passports and other documents, receipts.

4 Q. These documents were in your house in Kozarac, were they?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In what part of the house did you keep these documents?

7 A. In a room, upstairs there was a room, and I had an armoire there. I

8 do not know how to explain it, which part. It was in one of these

9 armoires.

10 Q. "One of these armoires", what is an armoire? Can you tell us what

11 that is?

12 A. It is like a cupboard, it has doors.

13 Q. When you left Kozarac, did you take these documents with you or did

14 you leave them in the house?

15 A. From all the family, it was only I who had licna karta, and it is for

16 a reason I once paid a fine for not having it so I always kept it on

17 me, and the rest, they never did. I do not blame my wife or my

18 children, I thought that it would all come -- and also we, in fear, we

19 did not remember.

20 Q. So are you saying you left it behind when you left Kozarac?

21 A. Yes, everything stayed there, of course.

22 Q. Mr. Jakupovic, did you at any stage say to Mr. Tadic that he could

23 have possession of your licence?

24 A. No, I never told him and he never asked me. It is a useless document.

25 It was only for me, maybe I could brag at some point that I had

Page 4782

1 passed the test, but it had no value.

2 Q. Mr. Jakupovic, do you know a man by the name of Bosko Dragicevic?

3 A. I do know him. He was my colleague from work.

4 Q. Do you know what nationality or ethnic group he was?

5 A. As far as I know, his father was a Serb and the mother was Croat, so a

6 Serb.

7 Q. Do you know where they lived or do you know where he lived, I should

8 say?

9 A. Yes, I know. He lived next to his father's house. There is a triangle

10 where roads cross on the road Kozarac, the old road that goes to Banja

11 Luka/Prijedor, so where that triangle is to the right, in Kozarac

12 itself, so to speak, in the centre.

13 Q. Could the witness please be shown Exhibit [redacted]?

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you mean a plaque showing the city of Kozarac

15 with Marsala Tita going down the street?

16 MR. NIEMANN: No, I understood [redacted] to be a photograph.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Bos has told me that this Exhibit is

18 confidential or, at least, it was offered through a witness who had

19 received certain protective measures. You may handle it, I suppose,

20 as you wish.

21 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It depends upon what you ask this witness, I

23 suppose, regarding this photograph.

24 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour. I have another copy of it. I

25 suppose I could use that but it is the same photograph, so .....

Page 4783

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If there is no objection to using this photograph.

2 MR. NIEMANN: No. The questions I ask will not .....


4 MR. NIEMANN: Do you recognise that photograph, Mr. Jakupovic, the area

5 that is depicted in it?

6 A. Yes, I recognise it.

7 Q. Can you see in the photograph the area where the house of Bosko

8 Dragicevic is?

9 A. Where it is situated?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. Yes, I see it.

12 Q. Yes, could that photograph be placed on the screen? Could you point to

13 that part of the photograph where the house of Mr. Bosko Dragicevic is

14 located?

15 A. This roof is Bosko Dragicevic's roof, this roof. This is the house of

16 his father and this is the store, this is, and behind that is his

17 house.

18 Q. Thank you. Mr. Jakupovic, would you now please look around the

19 courtroom and tell me if you can see the person that you know and

20 recognise as Dule Tadic?

21 A. Yes, I see him.

22 Q. Would you please point to him and would you describe the clothing that

23 he has on and where he is located in the court room?

24 A. He is between the two policemen in the navy blue suit.

25 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. Might the record reflect, your Honour?

Page 4784

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, the record will reflect that the witness

2 identified the accused.

3 MR. NIEMANN: I have no further questions.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, cross-examination?

5 Cross-Examined by MR. KAY

6 Q. Mr. Jakupovic, before the attack on Kozarac, is it right that most of

7 the Serbs had left that town in the days and weeks before the

8 shelling started?

9 A. Well, 100 per cent I cannot tell, but on the last day there was

10 nobody.

11 Q. Some Muslim families as well had left the town in the days and weeks

12 before that shelling started?

13 A. To be honest, I do not know. There were those who were that smart.

14 Q. Do you remember the Tadic family leaving about three weeks before the

15 shelling started at the beginning of May with the priest, Mladen

16 Majkic?

17 A. I do not know, I do not know that.

18 Q. But the Tadic family had left their home some weeks before the

19 shelling started, is that right?

20 A. I do not know that.

21 Q. Do you remember Dusko being there at the family home on his own for

22 some time and then him leaving?

23 A. I was with Dusko before the shelling, maybe two days. I do not know

24 if it is 100 per cent two days, maybe three, but I did not ask him

25 where his family was and he did not tell me, so I do not know.

Page 4785

1 Q. During the attack on Kozarac and when you left the town you did not

2 see Dusko Tadic?

3 A. No.

4 Q. As you have told us, you saw him in Prijedor and you mentioned ----

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. --- two occasions?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. One occasion you told us about when you went to the police station

9 with him and ----

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. --- what he was doing there was giving a guarantee as to your

12 character?

13 A. That, I do not know.

14 Q. Because you were concerned to leave the area as you appreciated that

15 it was dangerous for a Muslim living in Prijedor or being anywhere in

16 that district, is that not right?

17 A. Yes, it is right, and there was -- I had nothing to live from, I did

18 not have anything to eat. There was nothing positive there so that I

19 would decide to stay.

20 Q. Yes. You had been given help that meant you and your family were not

21 put in the camps but were living in Prijedor because you knew this man

22 or had some connection with Zoran Karlica?

23 A. I did not know that they had any connection, the two of them.

24 Q. Because it seemed, from what you have told us, that when you left

25 Kozarac and you were at the Limenka bus station that a soldier came

Page 4786

1 and said, "You know Zoran Karlica" and that was why you were taken to

2 Prijedor, is that how it happened?

3 A. Could you please repeat it one more time? I did not get it quite.

4 Q. It seemed, from what you have told us, that when you left Kozarac soon

5 after the shelling had stopped that you went to the Limenka bus

6 station and you were approached by a soldier who said, "You know Zoran

7 Karlica", and that was why you went to Prijedor rather than going into

8 a camp, is that what happened?

9 A. This is, it was, I got down from the Mount Kozara with several

10 thousand people -- there were more arriving -- and I was standing

11 with my family and my neighbour and his mother, all together, for a

12 while, I do not know how long. Then at one point a soldier arrived

13 and whether I was Adil Jakupovic, I said, "Yes". He says, "Come with

14 me, Zoran Karlica is calling you", and we went there behind and there

15 he was indeed. He put us in some military vehicle. He asked us where

16 he could take us, and my neighbour said that he had his wife's mother

17 in Prijedor, and so he took us there.

18 Q. It was in Prijedor where you stayed for some months before eventually

19 moving to Trnopolje?

20 A. Yes, I spent four months in Prijedor.

21 Q. Having left Kozarac after the attack on it, is it right that you never

22 returned back to your home?

23 A. Never more.

24 Q. What happened to your things, your possessions and your home, you have

25 never been able to see for yourself?

Page 4787

1 A. No, I could never learn.

2 Q. The point of you going to the Prijedor police station with your

3 various guarantees that you had paid your bills, that you were of good

4 character, was again a way of you trying to get a certificate to

5 enable you to leave the area, was that right?

6 A. Why, yes, they were not guarantees. They were simply the receipts

7 that you had paid all sorts of things, and then also the certificate

8 that I was leaving my place of residence.

9 Q. So it seemed that Dusko Tadic in going to the police station with you

10 on that day was helping you?

11 A. Yes, because I would not have dared go there to get this paper because

12 if a male was found in the queue, it was quite possible that he would

13 be taken out of that queue that same moment and that was going to the

14 point of no return.

15 Q. When you went to the SUP on this occasion, you went with Dusko Tadic

16 because he was a policeman?

17 A. Yes, but at that moment he was not wearing the police uniform. He was

18 in civilian, but I suppose he simply had his time off at the time. He

19 was in the service.

20 Q. Yes, you knew he was working as a policeman at that time you were in

21 Prijedor?

22 A. Yes, my brother-in-law had told me so.

23 Q. You referred to two occasions meeting him in Prijedor. We have heard

24 of this one occasion. Can you remember what the second occasion

25 concerned?

Page 4788

1 A. And the second time was in Trnopolje.

2 Q. How long did you stay in Trnopolje for?

3 A. Two months to a day, from 2nd October to 2nd December.

4 Q. In that time when you were there, do you know who was the Camp

5 Commander?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. Who was that?

8 A. It was an educator. Before the war he was a school principal,

9 otherwise his name was Slobodan Kuruzovic, a reserve Major, I believe

10 he was.

11 Q. Can you remember who his Deputy Commander was?

12 A. That, I do not know.

13 Q. Did you have any more dealings with Dusko Tadic after that occasion

14 you met him in Trnopolje and there was the discussion about the

15 transfer of your house?

16 A. No.

17 MR. KAY: Thank you. I have no further questions, your Honour.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any redirect, Mr. Niemann?

19 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mr. Jakupovic being

21 permanently excused?

22 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Jakupovic, you are permanently excused. You are

24 free to leave. Thank you for coming. You may leave now.

25 THE WITNESS: I thank you too. I should like especially to thank you and

Page 4789

1 those who appointed you. This is the only hope of life, the only

2 reason to go on living for me and my people.

3 (The witness withdrew)

4 MR. NIEMANN: I call Nasiha Jakupovic.


6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Does the usher know to bring in the next witness or

7 who the next witness is?

8 Did you offer B -- I forget the number on it.

9 MR. NIEMANN: If the Defence have no objection, I will offer it, your

10 Honour, otherwise formally I would have tendered it through an

11 investigator to give evidence of how he came into possession of it.

12 MR. KAY: No objection. We know the source of the document.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Prosecution Exhibit 306B then will be admitted.

14 Mrs. Jakupovic, would you take the oath, please, that is being given

15 to you?

16 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

17 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

18 (The witness was sworn)

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

20 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

21 Q. Mrs. Jakupovic, would you state your full name, please?

22 A. Nasiha Jakupovic.

23 Q. When were you born?

24 A. 8th August '46, Besici near Kozarac.

25 Q. Besici is a little village close to Kozarac, is it?

Page 4790

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you attend primary and secondary school in Kozarac?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you live there for most of your life, firstly, with your family

5 and then subsequently with your husband?

6 A. Yes, I was an infant when my brother brought me to Kozarac from

7 Besici. We had a flat and then my father built a house and we lived

8 in Kozarac all our lives until the war in the centre.

9 Q. I think the transcript says "brother", but I think you mean "mother"

10 brought you to Kozarac?

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is that correct?

12 THE WITNESS: "Father", I do not understand, excuse me. I do not

13 understand the question.

14 MR. NIEMANN: Who brought you to Kozarac? Did you come to Kozarac with

15 your parents?

16 A. With my father and my mum.

17 Q. Thank you. In the latter part leading up to just prior to the war,

18 did you live with your husband in Kozarac?

19 A. Yes, on Marsala Tita Street.

20 Q. Your husband is Adil Jakupovic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were you in Kozarac when the town of Kozarac was shelled in 1992?

23 A. Yes, I was at home with my children and my husband, and then we went

24 next house but one to a kind of a basement cellar under the house with

25 other neighbours.

Page 4791

1 Q. Did you then move from that place out of the centre of Kozarac?

2 A. Yes, we went towards the forest, towards Debeli Brijeg.

3 Q. Sometime after you had been in the forest, did you then meet up with

4 your husband after some days?

5 A. Sure, with my husband and my elder son.

6 Q. After some further days, did you then go with your husband and the

7 rest of your family down from the forest back into the town of Kozarac

8 itself?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When you arrived in Kozarac were you, your husband and your family

11 then taken from there to Prijedor?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who was it that assisted you in going to Prijedor?

14 A. When we arrived at the intersection Prijedor/Banja Luka next to the

15 petrol station, we got off the car because our neighbour had a car and

16 that was what we rode to that point. At that moment, a military

17 vehicle, a Pitzgauer, came. Zoran Karlica arrived, a good friend of

18 my husband's, a mountaineer, and he looked at us from the car, stopped

19 it, and my neighbour, Sead Kusuran, and myself with the whole family,

20 with my husband, sons and daughter, and took to Prijedor.

21 Q. Did you then move into a house in Prijedor where you stayed for a

22 period of some two months?

23 A. Yes, to a building not far from the hospital in Prijedor called Urije.

24 Q. Did you then move to another building in Prijedor where you stayed for

25 a further two months?

Page 4792

1 A. Yes, since we were 15 there, we had nothing to eat, we moved to

2 Raskovac in Prijedor -- only my family.

3 Q. Then after that did you then move to the camp?

4 A. After that? Excuse me.

5 Q. After that did you then move to the camp at Trnopolje with your

6 family?

7 A. Yes, as we still did not have anything to eat, we went there so that

8 we could get some food through the Red Cross, me and my husband and

9 three children.

10 Q. Do you know the accused Dusko Tadic?

11 A. Yes, very well.

12 Q. Do you know his family, his wife and children?

13 A. Yes, I also know his family, the first, his first child, daughter

14 Valentina, to his father, Ostoja, very well.

15 Q. Were you friendly with Dusko Tadic's wife?

16 A. Sure. We were neighbours. We would greet one another every time and

17 we exchanged visits.

18 Q. Did you from time to time go to the Tadics' house and did they from

19 time to time come up to your house?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When I say "they", was that both Dusko Tadic and his wife, Mira?

22 A. Yes, Mira.

23 Q. When you were living in Prijedor during the period of the war, did you

24 from time to time have to go out and buy supplies and shopping?

25 A. I did not understand that question. I am sorry.

Page 4793

1 Q. In fact, I have just noticed something on the transcript that I would

2 like to correct anyway. I just want to go back and ask you a question

3 again. When you say "they" visited your house, was it both Mr. Tadic,

4 Dusko Tadic, and his wife, Mira?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. The next question I asked you was when you were living in Prijedor,

7 during the period of the war, after the attack on Kozarac, did you

8 have to go out and buy food and supplies from time to time in the

9 marketplace?

10 A. Yes, since my husband could not leave the house, being a male, and my

11 sons also could not come out, my husband did not leave the house for

12 six months, so I was the only one who had to supply, to obtain

13 supplies for the family.

14 Q. On one occasion when you were out obtaining these supplies, did you

15 meet with Mira Tadic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you remember when that was, approximately?

18 A. It happened when we arrived to that other house after -- a month

19 after the arrival.

20 Q. So, that was about three months after the attack on Kozarac?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell us the circumstances of how it is that you came to meet

23 her and see her?

24 A. Well, she recognised me and I her, of course, logically, since we

25 spent our lives in Kozarac, "What is new? Your kids?" and things like

Page 4794

1 that. Then I asked her, "Please, could you, your husband or you

2 alone bring us our personal papers, documents, from our house".

3 Q. When you asked her this question, what did she say to you?

4 A. She said, "Nasiha, no problem in a day or two I will go with my

5 husband to Kozarac and I shall do my best to get for them you".

6 Q. Did you explain to her the documents in particular that you wanted?

7 A. Yes. I explained that I was looking for a school certificate for my

8 two sons, three passports that were in the house of my elder sons,

9 mine and my husband's, because my other son was under age and did not

10 have a passport of his own, and my own ID card.

11 Q. Did you tell her where these documents were located in the house in

12 Kozarac?

13 A. Yes, well, as they used to come to us too, we would have a cup of

14 coffee or birthday parties and things, he knew the rooms in my house.

15 I explained that it was in the room with the door to the balcony. On

16 the shelf in the third drawer there was a plastic bag and that plastic

17 bag contained all the personal documents of our family.

18 Q. Was there any discussion between the two of you as to when you would

19 meet again?

20 A. Yes, she told me, "I will be going in a day or two when my husband is

21 free, we shall go to Kozarac, look for it and bring you them".

22 Q. What was the next thing that happened in relation to this?

23 A. Then we met again at the same marketplace, because that is where they

24 sold vegetables and other food supplies and other household supplies,

25 and I met her and she said, "Nasiha, do come, I have brought some

Page 4795

1 things for you from your house", and I went with my daughter.

2 Q. Did she tell you where she lived?

3 A. Yes, she pointed the building she was living in.

4 Q. Did you then go to that house?

5 A. Yes, I went back home, left the purchases and went with my daughter.

6 Q. I said "house" but was it an apartment building?

7 A. A flat, yes. It was a residential block. A block of apartment

8 buildings there.

9 Q. When you went to the house who was there when you arrived?

10 A. There was Dusko Tadic's mother, there was Mira, two daughters,

11 Dusko's, and then I arrived with my daughter.

12 Q. Was Dusko Tadic there when you first arrived?

13 A. He arrived after some 10 or 15 minutes to that flat in which we were.

14 Q. When you first arrived, did you ask Dusko Tadic's wife about the

15 things that you had asked her to get from the house?

16 A. Yes, I asked her and he himself said, "Here it is, what we found, but

17 since everything is scattered around in your house I will try to

18 search for more".

19 Q. What did they give you? When they said, "Here it is", what did they

20 hand to you?

21 A. They handed me over a doll for my daughter, then an old photo album

22 and a piece of handy work round in shape like this. That was all.

23 Q. Did you receive any of the identification documents such as passports

24 and so forth that you requested?

25 A. No.

Page 4796

1 Q. Did either Mira or Dusko Tadic say anything to you about those

2 documents that in particular you were interested, the identification

3 documents?

4 A. They said that things were all thrown about around the house and they

5 failed to find them. That was that.

6 Q. On this occasion how was Dusko Tadic dressed?

7 A. Dusko Tadic was dressed in a camouflage uniform, then with a white

8 belt and he had a pistol. I know nothing about calibres but he did

9 not pull it out. It was in the holster and he had a knife. I do not

10 know on which side of his body, but somewhere near the pistol.

11 Q. What was the predominant colour of the camouflage uniform that he had

12 on?

13 A. Well, sort of blue, I think. I do not know much about that. I

14 believe it was something blue. It was multi-coloured, but I think

15 there was blue in it.

16 Q. Apart from the pistol that you spoke of, did he have any other arms on

17 his possession that you could see?

18 A. Yes, I saw a knife but I would not know what its length would be, not

19 to a centimetre.

20 Q. Did you see whether or not he had any head wear?

21 A. As he was getting ready he said, "Sorry, I have got to go on duty

22 because I shall be on duty at Tukovi", and he had in front a pouch

23 also on his belt and he had his cap also tucked behind the belt, but I

24 could not see what kind of a cap it was.

25 Q. Then did you subsequently leave their premises?

Page 4797

1 A. Well, we had coffee. I stayed for another 20 minutes and then my

2 daughter and I left after he had left.

3 Q. Did you meet Mira Tadic on a subsequent occasion?

4 A. In Prijedor, not with Dusko, afterwards in Trnopolje -- in Prijedor,

5 yes, in Prijedor with Mira, yes, but not with him.

6 Q. Did you go to the apartment on the next occasion in Prijedor?

7 A. Yes, again.

8 Q. Why did you go to the apartment on this occasion?

9 A. Well, then I and my daughter went alone and nobody knew and there was

10 no invitation. They had not invited me, but since they had promised

11 to go back to Kozarac, I wanted to find out whether they had found

12 some of our documents. So that is when we went.

13 Q. When you went back to the house this time, was Mira Tadic there at the

14 time when you arrived?

15 A. No, when I and my daughter went to that apartment, neither Mira was

16 there, nor Dusko's mother. There were only his two daughters there.

17 The elder one said, "I will go and fetch my mother and grandma. They

18 have gone to have coffee with a friend in that same building".

19 Q. Did Dusko Tadic's wife, Mira, and the grandma then return to the

20 apartment?

21 A. Yes, yes, they did, meanwhile, 10, 15 minutes time.

22 Q. When they returned did you ask them about the documentation and

23 whether they had had any luck in finding it?

24 A. Well, that was why I went, yes, I did ask.

25 Q. What were you told?

Page 4798

1 A. She says, "No, there is nothing".

2 Q. Did you at any stage say to either Mira Tadic or to Dusko Tadic that

3 they could take possession and keep any of the documentation that was

4 in your house?

5 A. Well, why should they keep them since when I needed them? I did not

6 say that.

7 Q. When you were in Trnopolje camp, where were you kept, where did you

8 stay, in what part of the camp?

9 A. I and my daughter was on the upper floor of the primary school at

10 Trnopolje. My husband was in another room, not with two of us. One

11 of my sons was under the staircase of the school and the other one in

12 the gymnasium.

13 Q. I think you briefly mentioned a moment ago that you saw Tadic, Dusko

14 Tadic, when you were in Trnopolje camp, is that correct?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. Can you tell us the circumstances of how it is that you came to see

17 him when you were in Trnopolje camp?

18 A. He came to look for my husband, and my younger son came to the room

19 saying, "Ma, Dusko has arrived and there is another man with him and

20 they are talking about something outside, outside the school".

21 Q. Were you with your husband at this particular moment?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Where was your husband, did you know?

24 A. Do you mean during the conversation?

25 Q. No. When your son first came to you. Do you know where your husband

Page 4799

1 was in the building?

2 A. Well, you know, sometimes in the room where they were, since it was

3 day time it was very stuffy, or probably in the hallway. I did not

4 know where my husband was because I was in the room.

5 Q. When your son came up and told you that Dusko had arrived and there

6 was another man with him, what did you do?

7 A. I ran down the stairs right away, because I was, nevertheless, afraid

8 for him. So I went down to see that no rough words were exchanged,

9 but I did not go near them.

10 MR. NIEMANN: Is that a convenient time, your Honour?

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

12 (11.30 a.m.) (Short Adjournment)

13 (11.50 a.m.)

14 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Jakupovic, before the morning adjournment you were

15 telling us that your son came up to you and told you that Dusko Tadic

16 had arrived with another man and he wanted to see your husband. When

17 you heard this you went downstairs. When you went downstairs, where

18 did you go to?

19 A. I came down from the second floor of the primary school, down the

20 staircase into the courtyard.

21 Q. When you went down there what did you see?

22 A. I saw my husband, Dusko Tadic and an unknown person with him, a man in

23 a uniform.

24 Q. From where you were, were you able to hear any conversation that they

25 had?

Page 4800

1 A. No.

2 Q. Were you able to have a good view of the three of them from where you

3 were?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How was Dusko Tadic dressed on this occasion?

6 A. He had a blue uniform with a white belt, the same pistol and a knife.

7 Q. The gentleman that was with him, how was he dressed?

8 A. He was in a multi-coloured, a green uniform, that is, a camouflage

9 uniform.

10 Q. Did you stay in that spot until your husband came back?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When your husband came back to you, did he say anything to you?

13 A. Yes, he came in scared, abnormally scared. He said, "Dusko is calling

14 me and this man to go with them to Kozarac to sign a paper, to

15 exchange houses with this man, this man from Velika Kladusa".

16 Q. After your husband came back in, did you ever see Dusko Tadic again

17 in the Trnopolje camp?

18 A. I did not. I could not see. I had a daughter who was under age --

19 she was 12 -- and I was spending all my time with her.

20 Q. Why were you spending all your time with your daughter? Was there any

21 particular reason for that?

22 A. Yes, of course, yes. From the guards, the military that arrived

23 there, they were taking girls out at night. I was very afraid.

24 Q. Had you heard of this happening when you were in the camp?

25 A. Yes, very often. They were coming into the rooms at night, three or

Page 4801

1 four soldiers, with flash lamps. There was no electricity. The whole

2 time, myself and my girlfriend, we slept next to one another. There

3 were 57 prisoners there. Every night we slept on, instead of a

4 pillow, we would use different parts of the body of my daughter as a

5 pillow.

6 Q. Why did you do that?

7 A. To hide my child.

8 Q. Did you hear girls being taken out of the camp when you were there?

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. What did you ----

11 A. Not girls, under age 13, 14 years, 12, whatever they would put their

12 hands on.

13 Q. What did you hear when they were taken out? What could you hear from

14 where you were?

15 A. Myself and all my friends here, we could only cry and listen to the

16 girls' screams. We did not hear anything but we heard.

17 Q. What did the guards do at the camp during the day? What were their

18 duties that you were able to observe?

19 A. They were -- some men that were there that remained, they were taking

20 them to a room where Kuruzovic was, Slobodan, and often they took them

21 there, and those soldiers that were coming were under his orders

22 probably.

23 Q. Did the guards in the camp patrol the camp?

24 A. Yes, all the time.

25 Q. There is just a little problem with the transcript that we need to fix

Page 4802

1 up. When you were talking about the girls that were crying, the

2 transcript says, "We did not hear anything but we heard". Do you mean

3 to say that you did not see things happen but you could hear?

4 A. I said "seen" but, yes, we did hear.

5 Q. You did not see but you could hear?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When you were in the camp, what did you do in order to get food and

8 supplies for your family?

9 A. I had a sister and a mother in Prijedor. My mother was old, 86. She

10 often would bring food, flour, bread and such.

11 Q. What were the conditions like in the camp where you were staying, in

12 the part where you were staying?

13 A. Where I was in that room on the top floor, there were 57 persons, an

14 infant from three months till about the age of 80, both men and women

15 and babies. I apologise, but for fear of going out, they would go to

16 the bathroom in the room. They would just stay there all night.

17 Q. Mrs. Jakupovic, would you please now look around the courtroom and

18 tell me if you can see the person that you know and recognise as Dule

19 Tadic? Do you see him?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Would you describe where he is in the courtroom and would you describe

22 the clothes that he has on, from what you can see?

23 A. Dusko is between the two policemen, in a blue shirt, a multi-coloured

24 tie and a dark blue suit.

25 Q. One final question: when did you leave Trnopolje camp?

Page 4803

1 A. 2nd December.

2 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, your Honour.


4 Cross-examined by MR. KAY

5 Q. Mrs. Jakupovic, you asked Mira Tadic if she could find documents for

6 you in your house. Since you had left Kozarac, you had not been back

7 to your house, would that be right?

8 A. Never.

9 Q. You did not know what the state or condition was of your house after

10 you left it?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You did not know what had happened to your possessions and belongings

13 that you had left?

14 A. No.

15 Q. In relation to those documents, your husband's expired driving licence

16 that had expired in 1985, presumably, was not an important document

17 for you? It was not a document with which you were concerned?

18 A. My husband never owned a car, and to me it did not mean something to

19 look for it. What I needed were the three passports, the school

20 certificates of the children and my personal ID. All that was in a

21 plastic bag.

22 Q. Presumably, the photographs that were brought to you by Mrs. Tadic

23 were things of sentimental value, would that be right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you ask Mrs. Tadic or Dusko Tadic to help in relation to obtaining

Page 4804

1 other papers for you that your brother may have wanted?

2 A. No, not my brother. I did not speak of that to him at all.

3 Q. When you were in the apartment of the Tadic family in Prijedor, you

4 told us that Dusko was just going on duty to Tukovi?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. That is a region or an area that is near the Sana River?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. There is a bridge from Prijedor that takes you across that river into

9 Tukovi, is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. KAY: That is all I ask.


13 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I omitted to ask that the record reflect the

14 identification.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, the record will reflect that the witness

16 identified the accused.

17 MR. NIEMANN: I have no other questions, your Honour.


19 MR. KAY: Nothing.

20 Examined by the Court

21 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, where is Velika Kladusa? How far is that from

22 Prijedor, about?

23 A. Trust me, I really do not know how far it actually is.

24 Q. Are you able to put a date at all on this occasion when the accused

25 visited the camp where you were?

Page 4805

1 A. Well, I think when we arrived to Trnopolje, that was in October, I

2 apologise, in the month of October and the date, I do not know.

3 Q. About how long after you arrived was it that you saw Tadic there?

4 A. In Trnopolje?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. Well, maybe 10 days into our being there.

7 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Jakupovic, do you know what is the ethnic

9 composition of Velika Kladusa? Do you know what is the predominant

10 religion of the people who live there?

11 A. Well, I think that predominantly they are Serbs, but I would not know.

12 I am not sure.


14 MR. NIEMANN: Nothing further.


16 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to Mrs. Jakupovic being permanently

18 excused?

19 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Jakupovic, you are permanently excused. You

21 are free to leave. Thank you for coming.

22 (The witness withdrew)


24 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour. I call Zijad Badnjevic.


Page 4806

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you take that oath that has been handed

2 to you, please?

3 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

4 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

5 (The witness was sworn)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

7 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

8 Q. Is your full name Zijad Badnjevic?

9 A. Yes.


11 Q. What is your date of birth?

12 A. 11th February 1947.

13 Q. Were you born in Gornji Kamingrad which is in the opstina of Sanski

14 Most?

15 A. Gornji Kamingrad.

16 Q. Did you attend primary school at Gornji Kamingrad?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And secondary school in Sanski Most?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you live in Gornji Kamingrad until 1970?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you receive training in any particular profession?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What was that?

25 A. For a policeman of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 4807

1 Q. Subsequent to your basic training, did you receive specialist training

2 in Sarajevo?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What was the nature of the specialist training you received?

5 A. It was training to become an Inspector for the Criminal Technology.

6 Q. When did you do your military service?

7 A. From '67 till '68, '69.

8 Q. Did you do your military service in Serbia?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What is your nationality?

11 A. Bosniak.

12 Q. Your religion?

13 A. Islam.

14 Q. After you left Gornji Kamingrad, where did you go then?

15 A. I went to work in the Republic Secretariat for the Interior in

16 Sarajevo.

17 Q. Then were you subsequently transferred to the city of Prijedor?

18 A. Yes, I was transferred in the police station. That was then called

19 SUP Prijedor.

20 Q. When did this happen, when were you transferred to the SUP Prijedor?

21 A. In May 1970.

22 Q. Did you work in the SUP in Prijedor from that time in 1970 up until

23 the commencement of the war in 1992?

24 A. Yes, from 1970 until April 30th 1992.

25 Q. Were you in Prijedor when it was taken over in April 1992?

Page 4808

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Prior to the takeover of Prijedor, who was the Commander or Chief of

3 Police in Prijedor?

4 A. Hasan Talundzic who was electric engineer who formally worked in the

5 iron ore mine of Ljubija.

6 Q. What happened to you in respect of your position in the police after

7 the takeover -- in Prijedor after April 1992?

8 A. On 30th April, I went to work as usual. At 6.30 I left my house. In

9 front of the building of the police station I was met by Kovacevic

10 Ranko, Petrovic Radoslav, and another soldier and there was a fourth

11 one. They demanded that I should raise hands, that they will -- that

12 we, as Croats and Muslims, could no longer go on working in this

13 building until our fate is determined.

14 Q. Were you taken to the SUP?

15 A. Yes, they searched -- they did a body search, and then they ordered

16 that I follow them into the SUP building, and they took me to room 2

17 which was part of the security of the SUP.

18 Q. After some time were you subsequently taken into the new head of

19 police?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. Who was that?

22 A. It was Simo Drljaca, who before that worked in the cultural and

23 educational organisation, who was from Sanski Most where I was born

24 too. I knew him slightly and he did not know me at all.

25 Q. When you went to see him, what did he say to you?

Page 4809

1 A. Cadjo Milutin was sitting with him. He introduced him. At that time

2 he was a retired policeman and he was activated and he took over a

3 separate police station of the reserves who did the most harm to our

4 people, and he introduced me to Simo Drljaca with a name and last

5 name, and he introduced him to me, where Simo offered me to sign a

6 statement of a paper, A4, written in Cyrillic alphabet, to sign and to

7 join in their service. If I did not sign that, myself and other

8 Bosniaks and Croats will not be able to be present or work in this

9 Secretariat.

10 Q. Can you recall the nature of the document, what it said in approximate

11 terms? I do not expect you to remember it word for word, but what was

12 the general thrust of the document that you signed?

13 A. The document was, as I said, written in Cyrillic alphabet. The memo

14 said: "Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbian Ministry of

15 Interior. This station of Prijedor", and I do not know the exact

16 number, and date and down there in block letters it was a solemn

17 declaration and then myself and then blank for the name, "I solemnly

18 declare that as a member of the security forces of the Serb Republic

19 will respect and protect the interests of the Serb Republic, and the

20 interests of the citizens", and in the end what was conspicuous to me,

21 "in case it would be needed, I also give my life to the Serb state"

22 and then it was "Prijedor" and the date left, and then it was a space

23 left for signature. That was approximately the contents of this

24 solemn declaration.

25 Q. Did you sign this?

Page 4810

1 A. No, no. I offered to Simo Drljaca and Milutin Cadjo to give me a

2 deadline, a reasonable one, of a week so that I could talk to my

3 colleagues, with my colleagues Bosnians and Croats, to address my

4 Ministry, at that time the Ministry of the Interior in Sarajevo, to

5 talk to my family, to my friends, my colleagues. If we all agreed, I

6 will also go, but if we did not, I am not going to sign off on the

7 loyalty myself. They gave us a reasonable seven day deadline and told

8 us to call, if we did not agree, "you should leave the Secretariat and

9 you should not be present in this building any more".

10 Q. Did you ever sign this document?

11 A. No. That document remained with me in the pocket. I went back to the

12 -- to my office. I left it in my desk. I am sorry that I did not

13 have a chance to take this document, but I had no option.

14 Q. What happened after that, after you had refused to sign to your future

15 with the police?

16 A. That all of us who refused, we had a meeting. There was a Minister

17 from the Ministry in Banja Luka, that all the Bosniaks and Croats who

18 were there, professionals, and all Serbs who were working there were

19 present at this meeting in the iron ore mine of Ljubija. We refused

20 to sign because that system, that state, was not the one that we

21 expected and, collectively, we refused to sign this loyalty document.

22 After that, what followed were individual arrests and taking into the

23 camps.

24 Q. Were you arrested and taken to a camp?

25 A. Yes, on 3rd June 1992, in early morning hours, I was arrested. I was

Page 4811

1 taken to the Omarska camp, then to Trnopolje and in the end I got out

2 of Prijedor and my country.

3 Q. How long were you in the camp at Omarska for?

4 A. From June 3rd, late evening hours, until 7th August 1992. Then I was

5 transferred to the Trnopolje camp.

6 Q. When you were in Omarska camp, were you there with any of your

7 relatives or fellow policemen?

8 A. Yes. We were mixed. There was my brother, Nijaz Badnjevic; my uncle,

9 Velid Badnjevic, who was killed me and Nijaz was taken on July 27th,

10 and we do not know about him since; Sadikovic Ago, who was taken away

11 on June 25th -- July 25th; Mirzad Alisic, Sinanagic Emir, Fazlic

12 Muhamed and my other colleagues and friends and neighbours, Muslims,

13 Bosniaks and Croats. We were all mixed.

14 Q. In total, how many friends and relatives of yours either died or

15 disappeared in Omarska camp that you have not seen since?

16 A. Of my 35 colleagues, policemen, who worked in different duties in the

17 police force, from that time of the camps and had disappeared, for

18 some I could affirm that they were killed and others were taken from

19 the prison and others, my neighbours' friends. There is a huge list I

20 can give, I do not know it by heart, but I can give you some names.

21 Those were people who lay down with me, who suffered with me, and I

22 affirm that they were taken from our rooms and they were killed.

23 Q. During the time that you were in Omarska camp, were you ever beaten or

24 otherwise mistreated?

25 A. Yes, everybody went through some form of torture in that camp and I,

Page 4812

1 like my other neighbours and colleagues, I also went through beatings

2 during the lunch time, that one sole meal, and then while going to use

3 the toilet and any other moment, they were beating us, abused us,

4 provoked, and did with us what nobody could -- what no man could do to

5 another man.

6 They had prerogatives that nobody could give to anybody. An animal

7 would not do to another animal what they did to us, other people, to

8 us as people.

9 Q. Do you know the accused in these proceedings, Dusko Tadic?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. When did you first meet him?

12 A. I met Dusko Tadic when I was on official duty. I did not know him

13 privately until then. After that I knew him both privately and

14 officially.

15 Q. When was it that you first knew him, first met him, I should say?

16 Approximately, the year will be sufficient.

17 A. In around '89, mid '89, that is when I was engaged in Criminal

18 Investigation Technology and in the police station at Kozarac, and

19 there Dusan Tadic had reported the rape of his brother's daughters, or

20 one of his brother's daughters. He was, I believe, from Banja Luka.

21 Then I made part of the team engaged to investigate this grave offence

22 which is rape which he had reported to the police station, and the

23 police station was subordinate to the centre in Prijedor.

24 Q. When you say the police station, that is the Kozarac police station

25 was subordinate to the Prijedor police station?

Page 4813

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did the complaint specify who it was that was alleged to have

3 perpetrated this rape?

4 A. Yes, Dusan Tadic was found in the police station at Kozarac together

5 with a girl who was about 15 or 16 years of age in tears, frightened.

6 The policeman on duty informed us that this was a gentleman who had

7 reported the rape of his brother's daughter, and that the rape had

8 been perpetrated by boys of her age, young men, Muslims, in Kozarac

9 right next to the police station and roughly across the street which

10 is about seven metres wide next to the pavement, that it had been done

11 by young men, that he had entered around 3 o'clock in the morning into

12 that house -- I believe the house was owned by Suljo -- and that he

13 beat and battered them and threw them down the stairs and took out

14 that girl, his brother's daughter, to the police station and reported

15 the rape in order to substantiate the claims of the alleged Muslim

16 threat to Serbs because the Serbs were a minority in that part of

17 Kozarac, about two or three per cent.

18 Q. Was the girl, the victim of the rape, subsequently examined

19 professionally by a gynaecologist?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What were the results of that examination?

22 A. The gynaecological examination was performed by the doctor on duty at

23 the hospital at the gynaecological department in Prijedor, Ziko

24 Canic. He is in [redacted] at present, a refugee like me. He,

25 therefore, examined the girl. In his finding it was said that there

Page 4814

1 were no signs of violence on the girl or any sexual intercourse.

2 Q. Was the girl then subsequently interviewed by police?

3 A. Yes. Together with me, the team included Gostimir Modic, a Serb from

4 Prijedor, together with me -- he came from Celinac -- we were both

5 hired at the same time, we were together on the team. In an interview

6 with the girl which he conducted but separate from his uncle, that he

7 had invented it all and reported falsely because she had agreed it

8 with the neighbours because she liked to come to Kozarac, to see her

9 friends and socialise with them, and they had agreed that that night

10 they should make a party, a dance in that house, to sit and drink and

11 sing and to spend the night like that.

12 Q. So she admitted that she was, in fact, not raped?

13 A. Yes, she told us that it was no go, that "my uncle had invented it and

14 ordered me to tell that, I was forced by him to say that, and I tell

15 you openly that nothing of that sort happened". Through our operative

16 work and our attempts to talk to those boys, they were children, and

17 other neighbours, that nothing had happened, that the rape had not

18 happened and we found that it was a false report.

19 Q. You said just in your answer there that she said her "uncle" had

20 invented it, by the word "uncle" do you mean Dusko Tadic?

21 A. Yes, yes, that was Dusko Tadic and I always referred to Dusko Tadic,

22 because he met us at the police station in Kozarac and told us that

23 his niece had been raped and that we were to undertake our official

24 duties to find, identify, the culprits and detain them and all the

25 rest.

Page 4815

1 Q. Later in 1990, you were assigned to conduct another investigation in

2 relation to some letters that had been received allegedly by the

3 accused Dusko Tadic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you tell us the circumstances of how it is that you became

6 involved in that investigation?

7 A. Yes, it was sometime in the latter half of '89 and in '90, Dusan Tadic

8 from Kozarac reported directly to the Prijedor police station with my

9 then head, Ranko Mijic, that he had received an anonymous letter from

10 an unknown person of a threatening nature, one, and the second and

11 only when he received the third one, we, that is, our office, was

12 compelled at his intervention to seriously undertake the investigation

13 of the criminal offence of anonymous letter writing.

14 Q. Can you tell us what the nature of the letters were?

15 A. The letter was of a threatening content. It was handwritten on the

16 paper form A4 and its contents, I can tell you roughly. "You", and it

17 was addressed to Dusan Tadic, Kozarac, I do not remember the

18 street, whether it was Mladena Stojanovica or Marsala Tita Street, I

19 cannot remember now, "You, the Serbs from Kozarac, you have to move

20 out. You go to Serbia. This is Bosnia. This will be Turkey and we

21 shall live here". This was more or less the contents of the third

22 letter, and it ended in a message, "We shall wage jihad", "jihad" the

23 holy war, "We shall exterminate you", and it ended in a message, we

24 thought it was a message, but it was nothing in Arabic, written in

25 Arabic, an Arabic text which I and my other colleagues did not manage

Page 4816

1 to interpret or read because we did not know Arabic.

2 So we turned to effendi from Kozarac. He was a religious worker.

3 His name was Ilijaz Mahmuljin from Kozarac. He worked as effendi in

4 the central Kozarac mosque and he read and interpreted to us the

5 contents of that Arabic text.

6 Q. What did you discover it meant?

7 A. With me in company was Inspector Mirsad Alisic who, as of July '92, is

8 gone. He was with me, together with me, in Omarska. We turned to Mr.

9 Ilijaz, effendi from Kozarac, to interpret it. We were in his house.

10 We sat down and he gave us the finding that that was nothing, that

11 there was an Arabic letter here and there, but that the contents could

12 not be read, that the writer of that letter had tried to rewrite, to

13 transcribe, it from somewhere but that it had no meaning.

14 Q. Did you then subject these letters to any further investigation in

15 order to determine who it may have been that wrote the letter?

16 A. Yes, since I was directly responsible for that kind of work, we

17 decided to work together operatively and to use various CI technology

18 and criminal evidence, which we did. We took the handwriting samples

19 of those persons who were indicated by us to Dusan Tadic -- by Dusan

20 Tadic as possible authors of the letter.

21 So that I took the handwriting sample from three young men in

22 Kozarac following all the criminal investigation rules. I did that

23 at the police station in Prijedor, and also the sample of Dusan Tadic.

24 By comparing this and with former samples, as required by the

25 Criminal Investigation Technology, I sent it to the expert service in

Page 4817

1 Sarajevo to the CID department division for Criminal Investigation

2 Technology.

3 Q. Did you subsequently receive a report back relating to this

4 handwriting analysis?

5 A. Yes, we received a finding sometime in 1990. I can remember it more

6 or less. The expert could not say who was the author of the letter,

7 but he said that the author of the letter had tried to avoid his

8 personal handwriting, that he tried to forge it so that the expert

9 analysis could not establish who had written it, and through operative

10 work we were more or less on the way of finding out who had written

11 that letter.

12 Q. The three men that Dusko Tadic had indicated who may have been the

13 perpetrators, were they found not to be, was there handwriting not the

14 same handwriting as that contained in the letter?

15 A. Yes, all the suspects who were on the list then, which included also

16 his sister-in-law, that is one of his brother's sisters called Zlata,

17 a Muslim from Kozarac, her maiden name was Ziska. My colleague, Reuf

18 Travancic, took a sample of her handwriting, and the finding was that

19 of the suspects who were on the list and Mrs. Zlata's handwriting,

20 that it was not theirs, that is that the letter had not been written

21 by them. We received such confirmation.

22 Q. So what then happened to the investigation after these findings?

23 What did you then do?

24 A. We continued with our operative work, with field work. We spoke to

25 neighbours, to witnesses and other people whom he had put on the list

Page 4818

1 and who might be possibly considered as alleged letter writers. I can

2 give you only one name, because other people I know, other people I do

3 know but I cannot give you their names for justified reasons because

4 these people are missing, they disappeared from my company in Omarska

5 where I was also in the camp, and they are entered as missing. They

6 are on records as missing people, and if I mention their names here it

7 might be a mistake because something might befall these people. But I

8 personally think that these people are still alive and, therefore, I

9 can give their particulars to the Court subsequently. I can give you

10 only the name of one person who is also a refugee.

11 Q. We do not have to go into that. Going back to during the course of

12 the war, did you then go to Trnopolje camp on 7th August 1992?

13 A. Yes, on 7th August together with about 750 inmates from Omarska I was

14 transferred by buses to Keraterm, sorry, to Trnopolje and arrived

15 there around 2300 hours at night.

16 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I have been told there is a word that needs

17 redaction at 12.33.06 on page 44 line 4. I apply to have that

18 redacted, just the name of the place, your Honour.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

20 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

21 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Badnjevic, when you arrived at Trnopolje camp can you

22 tell us the conditions of the camp when you arrived there?

23 A. Yes, I arrived on the last bus. I told you around 2300 there was no

24 electricity. That whole area perhaps was without electricity. So

25 they drove us into the camp which at that time had a wire fence around

Page 4819

1 it. In front of the camp there was a throng of women, children, old

2 people, emaciated, young and there were guards at the gate. We were

3 driven inside and we were ordered to sit down wherever we happened to

4 be and to wait for the next day because one could not go inside as

5 they were full. That is what we did and we waited for the next day.

6 Q. Can you just tell us what was the camp composed of? What buildings was

7 it composed of when you arrived there?

8 A. The camp used the old building, the once cultural centre called, and

9 the surgery, the ambulanta on the ground floor. Upstairs there was a

10 small room where there were also inmates left. Over the gate there

11 was an older building which once was a purchasing station and a

12 buildings material store, and above that part of that cultural centre

13 a new primary school had been built. It was also full and the yard

14 was full of tanks covered with plastic and blankets, because people

15 had made some makeshift accommodation and lived there in the mud, in

16 the dust.

17 Q. Do you know where the Commander of the camp lived, sorry, where the

18 Commander of the camp's office was when you were there?

19 A. Across the cultural centre there was a private house which once used

20 to house a restaurant. Its owners changed. I cannot remember the

21 name of the last owner. In one wing the then Red Cross, the local Red

22 Cross, was accommodated and in another room the Commander was

23 somewhere there. I did not go there. I did not enter those rooms.

24 Q. When you were in Trnopolje camp were you beaten or otherwise

25 mistreated by any of the guards at the camp?

Page 4820

1 A. As usual and also all the others all the time as we waited for water

2 or for lunch a guard would come by and kick one with a foot, with the

3 baton, with a hand. I did not spend much time in that camp. I was

4 released from there on the basis of a medical finding, of the doctor's

5 findings as I was severely mentally ill.

6 Q. When were you released, can you remember, from Trnopolje camp?

7 A. On 13th August I was allowed to go home to my family.

8 Q. That was back to Prijedor, was it?

9 A. Yes, to Prijedor to my flat where I used to live before.

10 Q. Did you go back there until November 1992?

11 A. Yes, together with my family I spent, I went through the same

12 predicament similar to the Omarska camp, because my freedom of

13 movement was limited, the quantity of food was also limited, and

14 everything else that a normal man could experience. I could only

15 watch from the balcony. My freedom of movement was restricted. I was

16 not allowed to go out of the apartment or from the building because it

17 was an apartment building, there were 120 flats in it.

18 Q. Did you in November 1992 go in a convoy to Zagreb?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Would you, please, now look around the courtroom and tell me if you

21 recognise the person that you know as Dule Tadic?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. Could you point to that person. Would you describe where he is in the

24 courtroom and how he is dressed?

25 A. He is sitting between two policemen facing one another. He has a tie,

Page 4821

1 a light blue shirt, a dark blue suit. Anything else?

2 MR. NIEMANN: No. Might the record reflect, your Honour?

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, the record will reflect that the witness

4 identified the accused.

5 MR. NIEMANN: I have no further questions.

6 Cross-Examined by MR. KAY.

7 Q. In fact, Mr. Badnjevic, you knew Mr. Tadic as Dusan Tadic?

8 A. Dusan Tadic I believe that is his first name and surname and Dusko was

9 his pet name. So whether he is Dusan or Dusko it is of no relevance

10 to me. I know that it is the man whom I saw, Dusan or Dusko Tadic

11 from Kozarac, a Serb who for a while was an active athlete, who was an

12 inhabitant of Kozarac, with a wife, with two children. If that is not

13 that man let him say so. If he is, let him also say so.

14 Q. I was not suggesting to you that it was not the man that you knew, but

15 that you knew him not as Dule Tadic, you knew him as Dusan Tadic which

16 is how you referred to him in court, is that not right?

17 A. Yes, as Dusan Tadic. I think that is his name Dusan and he was also

18 called Dule, and that is what I know about him.

19 Q. Were you asked by any of the other brothers of Dusan Tadic questions

20 about the condition of the niece whom it was alleged to have been

21 raped by the young men at the party in the house?

22 A. Could you repeat it, please? I missed the beginning of your question.

23 Which one of Dusan's brothers do you have in mind?

24 Q. I was asking you whether any of the brothers, rather than any

25 particular one that I could name to you, but any of the other members

Page 4822

1 of the family also spoke to you about their concerns with the young

2 girl who had been in the house at the party until 3 o'clock in the

3 morning?

4 A. No, nobody enquired from Dusan Tadic's.

5 Q. You did not speak to Mladen Tadic, for instance?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You did not speak to the father of the girl?

8 A. I do not know him.

9 Q. I thought you investigated this matter. You did not enquire about the

10 family of the girl as to her circumstances?

11 A. She came to visit, to pay a visit of her uncle and her parents thought

12 that she was being looked after in the house, because at that time he

13 could be her parent or a guardian, a protector.

14 Q. So it seems Mr. Tadic was very concerned about her welfare and where

15 she had been, is that right?

16 A. Yes, I guess so.

17 Q. After the various examinations and the findings made by the police,

18 that was the end of the matter in relation to these allegations?

19 A. Sir, the file was completed, the case was completed. It was also

20 submitted to the Public Prosecutor, the Investigating Magistrate and

21 together with my then boss, Ranko Mijic, took the decision on it

22 because I and my colleagues could not, of course, decide what would

23 happen to the case, but the Public Prosecutor and Investigating

24 Magistrate could. I presume they shelved that case judging,

25 presumably, that there was no need to work on it any longer.

Page 4823

1 Q. So, as far as you know, that was the end of the matter?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. KAY: Thank you. I have nothing further to ask.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, redirect?

5 MR. NIEMANN: Nothing further.

6 Examined by the Court.

7 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, you formed the opinion that this was a false

8 report made by Mr. Tadic?

9 A. Yes, we did. We established through operative work, interviews with

10 those boys and girls, there were about 15 of them in that house, that

11 everything was quite normal in that house.

12 Q. Yes. I am just concerned with your conclusion. Did you charge Mr.

13 Tadic with making a false report to the police?

14 A. The conclusion was that the report was false and we did not succeed to

15 charge for the false report, because my jurisdiction and my

16 colleagues' jurisdiction did not extend over this. All of this was

17 in the Public Prosecutor's and the Investigating Magistrates' office.

18 They had the case in their hands so they could do that.

19 Q. Nothing more happened after that?

20 A. No, nothing because somebody must have ordered to shelve the whole

21 case.

22 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.


24 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.


Page 4824

1 MR. KAY: Nothing, your Honour.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mr. Badnjevic being

3 permanently excused?

4 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, you are permanently excused. That means you are

6 free to leave. Thank you very much for coming. We will stand in

7 recess until 2.30 for lunch.

8 (1.00 p.m.)

9 (Luncheon Adjournment)


11 (2.30 p.m.) PRIVATE

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, will you call the next witness?

13 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you. Your Honour, the Prosecution calls Mustafa

14 Mujkanovic.


16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take the oath that is being

17 handed to you?

18 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

19 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

20 (The witness was sworn)

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

22 Examined by MISS HOLLIS

23 Q. Sir, would you please state your name?

24 A. Mustafa Mujkanovic.

25 Q. What is your date of birth?

Page 4825

1 A. 24th July 1947.

2 Q. What is your nationality or ethnic group?

3 A. Muslim.

4 Q. What was your place of birth?

5 A. Trnopolje.

6 Q. Was that in the village itself or in a hamlet near the village?

7 A. A hamlet.

8 Q. Did you attend primary school in Trnopolje for four years and then

9 for four years in Kozarac?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you leave school at age 15?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you then work as a baker's apprentice in Kozarac?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. After that did you go to Slovenia to train as a bricklayer?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you then work as a bricklayer in Slovenia for some 13 years?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. During that time how often did you visit Trnopolje?

20 A. Almost every weekend.

21 Q. While you were living in Slovenia were you called to do your

22 compulsory military service?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you serve in the JNA for 15 months starting in 1969?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4826

1 Q. What were your duty in the JNA?

2 A. I was a border guard.

3 Q. Where did you perform those duties?

4 A. I was in training at Klana near Rijeka, and then after the training I

5 went to Ohrid, to the Albanian border, and when there was aggression

6 on Czechoslovakia, as we called it, then I went to Dimitrovgrad near

7 Pirot, to the Bulgarian border.

8 Q. Dimitrovgrad was in what Republic?

9 A. Serbia.

10 Q. During your service with the JNA, did you become familiar with JNA

11 uniforms, insignia, weapons, vehicles and equipment?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. After working in Slovenia for some 13 years, did you then return to

14 Trnopolje and open your own business?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What kind of business was that?

17 A. I was in construction, an object from the foundation to the keys.

18 Q. What local areas did you work in?

19 A. In Bosanski Novi, Prijedor, Banja Luka, Kozarac, Laktasi and many

20 other places.

21 Q. How often did you work in Kozarac?

22 A. Every now and then. Sometimes I would work three months in a row and

23 sometimes maybe a month. It depended on business.

24 Q. What types of construction did you do in Kozarac?

25 A. I did mostly houses, some other structures like kebab houses and

Page 4827

1 such.

2 Q. Did you do similar construction projects in Trnopolje?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In addition to your work in the local areas, did you work outside the

5 local areas as well?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where did you work outside the local area?

8 A. I worked in Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, I worked around Bosnia, and

9 the last three or four years, I do not know precisely, I worked in

10 Montenegro.

11 Q. When you were working outside the local area, how long would you be

12 gone at a time?

13 A. Sometimes a month I was away from home, sometimes two. It could be

14 three months, but that was rarely. When I come back home, I stay home

15 10, 15, 20 days, depending on the business.

16 Q. When you were not travelling, how often would you visit Kozarac?

17 A. Not daily, but in eight days two or three times, sometimes more,

18 sometimes daily.

19 Q. In addition to the work that you did in Kozarac, what other reasons

20 would take you to Kozarac?

21 A. I had friends.

22 Q. In December 1991, did you return to Trnopolje and remain there until

23 you were taken to Trnopolje detention camp?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If the witness could be provided with Prosecution Exhibit 305,

Page 4828

1 please? Sir, I would like you to take a look at this map which is an

2 enlarged map of an area of Trnopolje. If you could locate your house

3 on the map and then I will ask that the map be put on the overhead

4 projector, please? Sir, looking at this map, if you could point to

5 your home as it appears on this map?

6 A. (The witness indicated on the map).

7 Q. So it is a house that is to the right of the yellow road marked on

8 the map? It is the second road to the right as you go up from the

9 school, is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. It is just beyond the intersection of that second road to the right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Sir, had you lived in that location your entire life when you lived

14 in Trnopolje?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know Dule Tadic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How long have you known him?

19 A. Many, many years.

20 Q. Can you tell us how many?

21 A. I knew him while I was still in Kozarac, I was at Versad Kulasic as

22 an apprentice. It is on the same side as you go to the Mount Kozara

23 from the road Banja Luka/Prijedor, it is on the right-hand side, and

24 the distance between the bakery and the house of Dusan's father was

25 the distance of 40 to 50 metres at the most and Dusan, as a child, he

Page 4829

1 was small, was coming for our fresh baked goods. That is how -- that

2 is from when I knew him.

3 Q. Is Dusko Tadic younger or older than you?

4 A. Younger.

5 Q. Did you know any other members of his family?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Who did you know?

8 A. I knew his brother, Ljubo. I knew the other two brothers from sight,

9 but one of them was, I cannot remember his name, but Ljubo I knew and

10 mother and father I knew.

11 Q. Did you know his wife?

12 A. From sight, I know she worked in Kozarac at the hospital, and I know

13 that she is from a place near Kozarac called Vidovici, that she was

14 born there.

15 Q. During the time that you knew Dusko Tadic, what kind of contact did

16 you have with him other than when he would visit the bakery at which

17 you worked?

18 A. He came to the bakery for a couple of years and then I saw him as he

19 was growing up and as I was, and I would see him often times.

20 Q. When he became an adult, did you continue to have contact with him?

21 A. No, no direct contact. I did not associate with him, but just in

22 passing. We greet, you raise your hand. That is the way I would meet

23 him. Often times, I would be sitting in a cafe or in some coffee bar

24 with music. I saw him in Prijedor often times, often times in Banja

25 Luka. I do not know how long back, I cannot recall, but his brothers

Page 4830

1 had a club, a karate club, in Banja Luka. So I saw him in Banja Luka.

2 I saw him. He had a friend who was a neighbour of mine, Radivoje

3 Milutinovic, so occasionally I would see him with him, and so .....

4 Q. When you were not travelling, on an average, how many times a month

5 do you think you would see Dule Tadic?

6 A. It depended. If you take a season, let us say, I worked in Kozarac

7 and I did a kebab house, that was 30 metres away across from Dule's

8 house, so then I would see him four or five times. But there would be

9 times when I would not see him for two months. If you take a season,

10 I would see him often times, but I did not pay attention. We did not

11 pay attention how many times you meet a person. I had no -- I did not

12 keep, have any registration of that.

13 Q. Mr. Mujkanovic, do you know what businesses Dule Tadic was involved

14 in?

15 A. Karate for a time and then lately -- but do not take my word for it

16 -- I think around 1990 he opened a cafe.

17 Q. Did you ever go to that cafe?

18 A. No, I do not go to cafes.

19 Q. Do you know where that cafe was located?

20 A. I know.

21 Q. Where was it located in Kozarac?

22 A. From the old road, from the intersection when you go towards Kozarac

23 on the right-hand side, at the very corner as you turn towards the

24 hospital.

25 Q. Do you know what businesses were located across the street from the

Page 4831

1 cafe?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What businesses were they?

4 A. Directly across, there was a house and then there was a building, an

5 apartment building, and then there was another one with apartments

6 upstairs, and downstairs, if we go from Mount Kozara to the right, was

7 a barber shop. Next to the barber shop was a pharmacy. Next to the

8 pharmacy was for a while a book store, and then I do not know what, it

9 was also a store but I cannot tell you what.

10 Q. During the time that you knew Dule Tadic as an adult, did you ever

11 see him with a beard or facial hair?

12 A. I knew Dule when he was not, he did not grow a beard, and then I

13 would see him with or without beard.

14 Q. After the Serb takeover of Prijedor on 30th April, did you ever

15 travel to Prijedor?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When you travelled to Prijedor, did you see soldiers in the town?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you ever hear any of these soldiers speaking?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you hear any dialects that were not local?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What dialects did you hear?

24 A. Serbian and Montenegrin.

25 Q. Before the attack on Kozarac, did the inhabitants of Trnopolje

Page 4832

1 village receive any ultimatums?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What were those ultimatums?

4 A. To turn in the weapons and that people would be detained who were, I

5 do not know how they called them, extremes, that they would be

6 interrogated, and who was guilty was going to be going to Banja Luka

7 and who was not guilty would be sent back home.

8 Q. Did you have any weapons?

9 A. No.

10 Q. When the town of Kozarac was shelled, was any area of Trnopolje

11 shelled?

12 A. Yes, but not with the force as Kozarac.

13 Q. After the attack on Kozarac, did any refugees come to the village of

14 Trnopolje?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did any of these refugees come to your home?

17 A. Yes, those who lived across the asphalt up there.

18 Q. From what villages did the refugees come to your home?

19 A. Kamicani, Mujici, Brdjani, Besici, I mean Kozarusa. I mean, families

20 that I had and my wife had.

21 Q. What was the ethnic group of the refugees who came to your home?

22 A. I did not understand the question.

23 Q. What was the nationality or ethnic group of the refugees who came to

24 your home?

25 A. Muslim.

Page 4833

1 Q. How close was your home to the Trnopolje detention camp?

2 A. I think about 700 metres.

3 Q. When did you first see any detainees in the camp at Trnopolje?

4 A. I do not recall exactly, 26th or 27th May '92.

5 Q. After these detainees were brought to the camp at Trnopolje, did

6 women from the town of Trnopolje take food to the detainees?

7 A. Yes, for a while.

8 Q. When did the cleansing of your area occur?

9 A. In my area, the cleansing came on 9th June '92.

10 Q. What area was cleansed on that date?

11 A. Mostly this vicinity of the camp.

12 Q. Where were you on 9th June when this cleansing occurred?

13 A. At home.

14 Q. How many other people were at home with you on that date?

15 A. If you think altogether, including women, children, men, elderly,

16 about 35 to 40 of us.

17 Q. On that date where were you and the other people in your home taken?

18 A. We were taken in the direction of the camp, and men were separated in

19 the camp and women and children to the railroad station, railway

20 station, and they put them on the train in the direction of Banja

21 Luka.

22 Q. When you were taken to Trnopolje camp, did you recognise any of the

23 men who took you there?

24 A. Yes, I recognised.

25 Q. The ones that you recognised where were they from?

Page 4834

1 A. Mostly, they were local people of Serbian nationality.

2 Q. What were they wearing?

3 A. Multi-colour -- when I say multi-colour it is the camouflage uniform

4 -- and SMB clothes, that was SMB, but that was the winter uniform. It

5 was not kamgarn. That was a rolled wool. Kamgarn is worn by the

6 officers.

7 Q. When you say SMB uniforms, you mean the uniforms of the JNA?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. These are the uniforms that are an olive green in colour?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How long were you held at the Trnopolje detention camp?

12 A. Until 1st October '92.

13 Q. While you were held in the camp, where were you held?

14 A. School building.

15 Q. Where were you held in the school building?

16 A. On the top floor, in the toilet.

17 Q. What could you see from that toilet room that you were held in?

18 A. I could see the west side, that is, towards Prijedor. There was a

19 road that leads Trnopolje to Prijedor.

20 Q. While you were at the camp, were you allowed to go outside the school

21 building?

22 A. For a while, no, and then later, yes.

23 Q. When you were allowed to go outside the school building, where were

24 you allowed to go within the camp?

25 A. Mostly within the perimeter.

Page 4835

1 Q. When you first arrived at Trnopolje camp, where was the Serbian Red

2 Cross office located?

3 A. In a building, in the front off the road on the lower floor.

4 Q. What building was that?

5 A. Dom, it is not the school, it is the dom.

6 Q. Is that a hall with a cinema?

7 A. Yes, but on the front part next to the road.

8 Q. Did that Serbian Red Cross office move to another location while you

9 were at the camp?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Where was it moved to?

12 A. Moved across the street, across the road, in a restaurant, I do not

13 know exactly when, but in any event before the women were to arrive

14 from Omarska, two weeks before that.

15 Q. If at this time we could have Prosecution Exhibit 203 played, that

16 is, the video of Trnopolje camp? Sir, I am going to ask you to look

17 at the screen in front of you while we show a video. If we could stop

18 the video here, please? Sir, is this the school building in which you

19 were kept?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. If we could move forward, please? If we could stop here? Sir, what

22 is this building?

23 A. A shop.

24 Q. Do you recall what offices were in the portion of that building, that

25 is, behind it, behind the shop?

Page 4836

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was behind that?

3 A. To the right and on the upper floor in the back, there was the

4 storage space for the shop, that is, the supplies, the stock. To the

5 left above, that is out here, was the centre and there was the door

6 where doctors were, the blood laboratory, Local Commune, and a

7 restaurant called Moco and that is where the Red Cross was. So in the

8 back, not here, here was only the shop.

9 Q. Could we go forward, please? Will you stop here? Sir, if you see

10 this building, the large white building with the arches, what building

11 is that?

12 A. Yes. That is where the restaurant was first and then the Red Cross.

13 On the upper floor at that time were the headquarters on the upper

14 floor.

15 Q. If we look at this picture now, we see a small rectangular building

16 to the left. It appears to have three doors. What is that building?

17 A. There are three brick toilets.

18 Q. If we could move forward, please? If we could stop there? What is

19 this building that we see?

20 A. This was the warehouse for building materials, where they kept the

21 stock of them.

22 Q. If we could move forward? As we turn this corner on to this road to

23 our right, in what direction are we heading?

24 A. Towards Prijedor.

25 Q. Is this also the road that went in the direction of Elezovici?

Page 4837

1 A. You mean to Elezovici.

2 Q. In the direction, yes.

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. Then if we could fast forward it to the next clip, please? If we

5 could play it beginning with the buildings across from the camp? Will

6 you stop here? What is this building that we see on the right?

7 A. This is the building where the Red Cross was and part of the

8 headquarters, although the main command was in another place. That is

9 across the centre. I have already told you about it.

10 Q. If we could move forward, please? As we are looking at these houses

11 here, do you know the ethnic group of the people who owned these

12 houses?

13 A. Muslims.

14 Q. While you were at the camp, were these houses that are being shown

15 here being used by camp personnel?

16 A. I did not understand the question.

17 Q. The houses that we saw to the right, while you were at the camp in

18 Trnopolje, were those houses being used by camp personnel?

19 A. The camp personnel, yes.

20 Q. Thank you. If you could shut off that tape, please? Did you know

21 any of the other detainees at Trnopolje camp?

22 A. Yes, many.

23 Q. What was the ethnic group of the detainees that you knew?

24 A. Muslims, Catholics, Romany.

25 Q. Did you know the Camp Commander prior to your coming to the camp?

Page 4838

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who was the Camp Commander?

3 A. Kuruzovic, Slobodan.

4 Q. How had you known him before?

5 A. Well, not really closely, by sight.

6 Q. Do you know what his ethnic group was?

7 A. Yes, Serb.

8 Q. What would he wear when he was in the camp?

9 A. Well, logically, he wore a camouflage uniform all the time.

10 Q. Did you ever see any rank insignia on that uniform?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What rank insignia did you see?

13 A. As of a Major.

14 Q. Did you know any of the guards that worked at the camp?

15 A. Yes, several.

16 Q. The ones that you knew, where were they from?

17 A. They were mostly locals.

18 Q. Did you know any people named Karajica?

19 A. Yes, I knew several Karajicas.

20 Q. Did any of those people work at the camp while you were there?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you recall the first names of the Karajicas who worked at

23 Trnopolje camp?

24 A. Of some of them, yes.

25 Q. Please tell us the names that you recall.

Page 4839

1 A. Sreto Karajica were there, Mladen worked there, and now I cannot

2 remember all of them, but they worked there, a number of them worked

3 there.

4 Q. How were Sreto and Mladen related?

5 A. Father and son.

6 Q. Who was the father?

7 A. Sreto was.

8 Q. At this time if we could play Prosecution Exhibit 307 for

9 identification? It is a video tape. Sir, we are looking at an area

10 -- if we could stop here, please -- near Trnopolje. Do you recognise

11 any of those homes?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who lived in those homes that are shown on this video tape here?

14 A. This one here was the home of Sveto Karajica and his younger son, and

15 Sreto's house is below this one.

16 Q. So Sveto was related to?

17 A. Sveto or Svetozar. He would respond to both those names.

18 Q. Sir, how was Sveto related to Sreto?

19 A. Sveto was Sreto's father.

20 Q. If we could move forward, please? If we could stop here, please?

21 Sir, do you recognise whose house this is?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who owned this house?

24 A. I cannot remember his name, but I know it was Bajro Cuskic's son who

25 worked in Switzerland. That was his property. But when we were driven

Page 4840

1 to the camp, Sreto Karajica's son moved into this house.

2 Q. Do you recall which son that was who moved into the house?

3 A. The elder.

4 Q. Do you recall his name?

5 A. Yes, I have just mentioned it.

6 Q. Stariji is his name? Sir, what was the name of the older son who

7 moved into this house, if you remember?

8 A. Mladen.

9 Q. That was the Mladen who worked at the camp?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right, thank you. If we could shut that video off, please? Did

12 you know a family named Cavic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did any of those family members work at the camp or visit the camp

15 often?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. Do you recall the names of any of the Cavic family who worked at the

18 camp?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What are the names that you recall?

21 A. Milan and Dragoje or, rather, Mile.

22 Q. Both of them worked at Trnopolje camp?

23 A. Yes, Mile was guard Commander for a while.

24 Q. Do you know what Dragoje's position was at the camp?

25 A. Dragoje, as they called him, was a field man, so he was not at the

Page 4841

1 guard point but he was always present in the camp.

2 Q. When he came to the camp would he mistreat detainees there?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know a family named Nisevic?

5 A. Nisevic maybe.

6 Q. Nisevic. Did any of those family members work at the camp?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. Do you recall the names of any of those family members who worked at

9 the camp?

10 A. Yes, I do. Something.

11 Q. Who was that?

12 A. It was Goran Nisevic called Cigo. Some others also worked there but

13 I cannot remember their names now.

14 Q. Did you know a family named Baltic?

15 A. Baltic, yes.

16 Q. Did any members of that family work at Trnopolje camp?

17 A. Yes, some of them, yes.

18 Q. Do you recall the names of any of the Baltic family that worked in

19 the camp?

20 A. No, I only know them by sight.

21 Q. Sir, while you were in Trnopolje camp, were you ever beaten?

22 A. Several times.

23 Q. Were there any times that were particularly severe?

24 A. Twice, yes, rather severe.

25 Q. These two beatings that were rather severe, where did they occur?

Page 4842

1 A. It was in the building next to the centre called "Laboratory". It

2 was the blood laboratory. That was at the entrance. As you go to see

3 the doctor, to the left there was a door and it says "Laboratory".

4 Q. Sir, the first time you were taken there and beaten, did you

5 recognise who took you there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Who was that?

8 A. Mladen Mitrovic.

9 Q. How did you know him?

10 A. I knew him for a long time before that he married a girl from my

11 place. He lives in Prijedor otherwise, but he worked as a waiter in

12 my locality for quite sometime so that I knew him. On a winter day

13 when there would be no bus or train, I frequently gave him a lift

14 home.

15 Q. What was his ethnic group?

16 A. Mixed. His mother is a Ukrainian and father a Serb.

17 Q. How often would he come to the camp?

18 A. He was always in the camp.

19 Q. Did he work there?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When he worked at the camp what did he wear?

22 A. Camouflage uniform.

23 Q. When you were taken to the lab and beaten, did you recognise any of

24 the people who took part in that beating?

25 A. Yes, one Slavko from Prijedor, a Captain by rank -- I mean, I saw the

Page 4843

1 insignia, three stars, that is a captain -- and he interrogated me. I

2 do not know, he was a butcher in Prijedor. I believe his family name

3 was "Puhovski" or something like that, and those others, I saw they

4 had uniforms but I knew where I was, and I did not really bother about

5 recognising anyone. It would have been of no use to me whether I knew

6 anyone or not.

7 Q. Sir, the uniforms that these men wore, did the uniforms have any kind

8 of insignia on them?

9 A. Yes, yes, there were, there were. There were kokardas also on their

10 caps or on those caps. There are round caps and there are former

11 military caps, the ones that the former Yugoslav Army used to wear.

12 Q. You say that they had kokardas on their caps, can you tell us what a

13 kokarda is?

14 A. Do you want me to explain what a kokarda is, what it signifies or

15 both?

16 Q. Both, please. What is a kokarda?

17 A. Kokarda is a Chetnik symbol, a wartime Chetnik symbol. It is from

18 World War II. It was then the sign of Drazen Mihajlovic. It is a

19 two-headed eagle, and those kokardas are worn in war. Drazen

20 Mihajlovic used them in World War II and it was used now.

21 What does it signify? It is the same, or I guess so, it is

22 the same as when a Croat -- I do not want to offend anyone, but when a

23 Croat puts, if a Croat puts a letter "U" on his flag rather than the

24 chessboard, or a German, if a German put a swastika cross on the flag,

25 for instance.

Page 4844

1 Q. The people that were in the room, this first time that you were

2 beaten, did any of the people in that room use a non-local dialect

3 when they spoke?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What was the dialect or accent that you recognised?

6 A. From Serbia and Montenegro, they were people who came up from outside

7 most probably.

8 Q. During this first beating that you received, what was used to beat

9 you with?

10 A. They beat me with anything, from baseball bat to cables, to boots,

11 hands and even a chair.

12 Q. Did they appear to concentrate the blows on any parts of your body?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Where did they concentrate those blows?

15 A. In the area of my heart and kidneys, but otherwise all over the body.

16 They beat all over, including my head.

17 Q. What injuries or bruising did you receive as a result of this

18 beating?

19 A. The first time one of my veins in my leg is cut, my head was

20 fractured -- it was broken here. There were fractures here, like

21 this, five or six centimetres, and I had many such injuries. The

22 second time, if you are asking me about the second time?

23 Q. Let me ask you about the second incident itself. The second beating

24 that occurred, how long after the first beating did it occur?

25 A. I had just begun to recover. I cannot remember, perhaps four or five

Page 4845

1 days after it I was taken in once again.

2 Q. Did you recognise who took you for the second beating?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who was that?

5 A. Oh, it was the same man, so to speak, that Mladen, but there were

6 others too who were in his company. Cigo was there. I mean, he is our

7 neighbour and around there, but they mostly laughed. Some were in

8 front of me, some were at my back and they laughed, but there were a

9 number of them to the door. Then they opened the door and I entered

10 and then, well, and then I knew what was in store.

11 Q. You said that Mladen was one who took you there, what is Mladen's

12 last name?

13 A. Yes, Mitrovic.

14 Q. You said Cigo, what is Cigo's last name?

15 A. Goran Nisevic.

16 Q. The second occasion that you were beaten, what did they use to beat

17 you with on this occasion?

18 A. Anything, rifle butt. I had four teeth struck out on the right-hand

19 side. Two were also kicked out on the left one, and this here, here

20 as you see on the ----

21 Q. What happened ----

22 A. --- below my eyes.

23 Q. --- to your eyes?

24 A. It was, it was bruised, it was bruised because there was blood had

25 coagulated and then a friend, a doctor, helped me who was not supposed

Page 4846

1 to but he did, he risked, and he gave me some medicines and so I still

2 feel the effects.

3 Q. Did you lose consciousness either time you were beaten?

4 A. Yes, they beat me and beat me. I do not even remember how long. It

5 looked like eternity to me. Eventually, one took me by my feet and

6 put me against the wall and the other one began to beat me with his

7 hands, with his feet, so that I felt sick, I threw up. Then suddenly

8 I wanted to throw up again but I could not, and there was some yellow

9 liquid which I vomited. It was so bitter that I have never tasted in

10 my life anything so bitter and then I must have fainted.

11 Q. Were you ever told why you were being beaten?

12 A. Yes, several times, yes.

13 Q. Why were they beating you?

14 A. They were asking for rifle, for money, for gold.

15 Q. While you were in the Trnopolje camp, do you recall an occasion when

16 you saw a column of people coming toward the camp from the direction

17 of Elezovici and that area?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were you able to recognise any of the people in that group?

20 A. No, I could not recognise them.

21 Q. Where were you when you saw this group coming toward the camp?

22 A. I was in the WC on the upper floor, this is, as I told you, a view

23 towards Prijedor.

24 Q. The next day after seeing this column, do you recall being called out

25 to bury bodies?

Page 4847

1 A. Yes, the following day. It was 10th July when I buried bodies, and

2 on the 9th they were brought in and killed.

3 Q. Who called you out to bury these bodies on 10th July?

4 A. Goran Nisevic. He was the guard Commander at the time.

5 Q. Where were you taken to bury these bodies?

6 A. In the direction of Prijedor.

7 Q. Did you recognise any of the corpses?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who did you recognise?

10 A. I recognised Meula Idrizvic, her son, Sadik, their daughter-in-law I

11 recognised, Munib Hodzic I recognised. I recognised a young one, there

12 was a lad, I believe his name was Samir Elezovic. I recognised a

13 couple of them more, but I am not quite sure because some had half of

14 their head missing, or the whole head would be covered in blood, so

15 that -- but altogether about 13 persons buried.

16 JUDGE STEPHEN: That first name, is that a woman's name?

17 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, she is a woman close on to 70 at the time.

18 MISS HOLLIS: What was her first name?

19 A. Meula Redzic.

20 Q. The people that you recognised, the bodies that you recognised, what

21 was their ethnic group?

22 A. Muslim.

23 Q. Was there a mill that was located close to Trnopolje camp?

24 A. Yes, in the direction of Omarska.

25 Q. Were you ever taken to that mill to bury bodies there?

Page 4848

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who took you to the mill to bury bodies there?

3 A. Once it was Dragoje Cavic to bury Ante Mrgolja and his son. I know

4 Ante Mrgolja well and his son as well. I am not sure whether his name

5 was Goran or Zoran, one of the two it is.

6 Q. You mean the son's name is either Goran or Zoran?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You said that Dragoje Cavic took you there, and you saw the bodies

9 ----

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. --- of Ante Mrgolja and his son. What was the ethnic group of Ante

12 Mrgolja and his son?

13 A. Catholic.

14 Q. Did you see any wounds or injuries on these bodies?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What did you see?

17 A. That was, I saw that they had six, the wires, that was, that is the

18 wire that is used in construction as armature, it is six millimetres

19 cross-section, and I saw that two wires that were pierced through

20 their tongues, and I saw on their necks, but I could not see what. I

21 was afraid to look more closely, whether they had firearms wounds or

22 some other objects, but in any event they were dead.

23 Q. So you saw wounds on their necks?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you taken to this mill on other occasions to bury people?

Page 4849

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you recognise any other people that you had to bury there?

3 A. Yes, I recognised them.

4 Q. Who did you recognise?

5 A. The second time I recognised the Foricís. There were two brothers,

6 two brothers and two brothers, a total of six and, as we called it,

7 there were three sets of brothers from three brothers.

8 Q. On this occasion who took you there to bury these bodies?

9 A. Dragoje took me, Cavic.

10 Q. Did you recognise any wounds or injuries on these bodies?

11 A. Yes, they were killed by firearms, point blank.

12 Q. What was the ethnic group of these Foric brothers whose bodies you

13 buried?

14 A. Muslim.

15 Q. At this time if we could continue with Prosecution Exhibit 307 for

16 identification?

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, do you recall the Exhibit that we had

18 and we were to refer to persons by either their letter or number?

19 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, ma'am.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is not implicated at this time, is it?

21 MISS HOLLIS: No, it is not.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Thank you.

23 MISS HOLLIS: Can we play the second part of that video, please? If we

24 could stop? Back up just a bit, please? Just come up to where we can

25 see this road to the right, please? Stop here. Sir, do you recognise

Page 4850

1 where this road to the right leads?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Where does that road lead?

4 A. That road leads, it leads from Trnopolje towards Omarska. This road

5 that goes to the left is the road to Cavici, and if you are coming

6 from the direction of Omarska, it is the road to the right is the one

7 to Cavici.

8 Q. So, as we are looking at this now, the road that leads to the right

9 is the road to Cavici?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. On that road to Cavici, is there any type of cemetery near that road?

12 A. Yes, there is. From this asphalt, 150 metres, I do not think there

13 is more, maybe not even that much, to the left there is a cemetery,

14 Orthodox.

15 Q. If we could go forward, please? As we are going back into Trnopolje

16 on this road, if you could tell us when we approach the mill, please?

17 Is that the mill that we just passed? If we could stop, please?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Back it up, please.

20 A. No, that is not it. We just passed by it.

21 Q. Yes, can we stop here, please?

22 A. That, yes.

23 Q. Is this the mill where you were taken to bury the bodies?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If we could go forward? Right, thank you very much. Your Honour, at

Page 4851

1 this time I would offer Prosecution Exhibit 307 for identification.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

3 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 307 will be admitted.

5 MISS HOLLIS: Mr. Mujkanovic, do you recall an occasion when you were

6 taken to bury bodies near your home?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who took you to bury these bodies?

9 A. Miso Radulovic and another man. I know him by sight. I know that he

10 was in the municipality working as a driver. I do not know his name.

11 Q. Did you recognise any of these bodies?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who did you recognise?

14 A. I recognised some, Tefa, I knew him by sight, I know he was from

15 Kamicani and that he worked in Germany for a long time, and Meho

16 Krajina. Tefa was cut by rifles and then Meho had his throat slashed,

17 and then 20 to 30 metres from there I found my brother, my oldest

18 brother. He was stabbed five times in the chest by either a knife or

19 a bayonet, left breast was cut off. I apologise, but I have to say his

20 genitals were cut off and he was also slashed over his throat.

21 Q. Sir, what was your oldest brother's name?

22 A. Esef.

23 Q. While you were at the camp, did you ever see women or girls taken

24 from the camp?

25 A. I did see.

Page 4852

1 Q. How many times did you yourself see this?

2 A. I saw it twice.

3 Q. The first time that you saw it where were you?

4 A. The first time I was between the home (sic) and those brick latrines

5 that you were showing earlier.

6 Q. Sir, the translation says you were between the "home" and the brick

7 latrines, did you say the "dom"?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Where were these women or girls being brought from?

10 A. Ones were behind the dom, there were tents there, and the others were

11 taken out of the hall, the dom.

12 Q. In what direction were these women or girls being taken?

13 A. They were taken in the direction of the road, that is, towards the

14 Red Cross in the direction of the road.

15 Q. Without naming them, did you recognise any of these women or girls

16 who were being taken away?

17 A. Yes, but I was not given permission to mention their names.

18 Q. Yes, and I do not want you to mention their names. What was the age

19 group of these women or girls?

20 A. About 16, 17 years and up at that time.

21 Q. What was the ethnic group of these young women?

22 A. Muslim.

23 Q. How were they reacting as they were being taken away?

24 A. They were screaming. They were trying to get away and they were

25 crying.

Page 4853

1 Q. Did you recognise any of the men who were taking them away?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who did you recognise?

4 A. Mladen Mitrovic and Dragoje Cavic and some others that I did not

5 know, but they were all in the camouflage uniforms. They were

6 soldiers.

7 Q. Did you see these young women come back to the camp?

8 A. No, I did not.

9 Q. At this time if we could have Prosecution Exhibit 203 played from the

10 beginning at the school, please? If you could stop it here, please?

11 Sir, as we are looking at this film here, we see the dom to the right

12 and the toilets to the left. Could you tell us where you were between

13 those two structures when you saw the young women being taken away?

14 A. I came out of the toilet and maybe I was two or three metres from the

15 toilet when they passed me to the left.

16 Q. So they passed in front of you or behind you?

17 A. In front, they were near the dom on that side.

18 Q. Thank you. If we could turn that video off, please? Sir, you said

19 that you saw young women taken away on two occasions. Where were you

20 the second time that you saw this happen?

21 A. On the second occasion I was behind the dom.

22 Q. Where were these women or girls taken from on that occasion?

23 A. They were taken in the direction of a house which is immediately very

24 close to the restaurant where the Red Cross was.

25 Q. Again without naming them, did you recognise any of the women or

Page 4854

1 girls who were taken away on that occasion?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What was the age group?

4 A. Well, mostly they were unmarried girls.

5 Q. What age group? Were they younger women?

6 A. Yes, younger.

7 Q. What ethnic group were they?

8 A. Muslim.

9 Q. How were these women reacting as they were being taken away?

10 A. The same way, crying. They were trying to wrest themselves away from

11 them. They were asking them to let them go.

12 Q. Did you recognise any of the men taking these young women away on

13 this occasion?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who did you recognise?

16 A. I recognised Ratko Ilic and Mladen Mitrovic.

17 Q. Did you see these young women come back to the camp?

18 A. No.

19 Q. If I could have this composite exhibit marked as Prosecution Exhibit

20 308 for identification? If that could be shown to the Defence and

21 then given to the witness? Sir, do you recognise the buildings

22 depicted in those photographs?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. If that could be placed on the overhead projector, please? As we look

25 at this Exhibit, what is the building that is shown to the right as

Page 4855

1 you look at the picture?

2 A. This was the restaurant.

3 Q. Was this also the building ----

4 A. This is where the Red Cross was. Here there were soldiers sometimes

5 and the Major.

6 Q. So if we look to the left side of that building that was the Red

7 Cross office, and if we look to the right side that is where some of

8 the command was?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Then if we look to the house that is to the left of the cafe, what

11 house is that?

12 A. This was the house of Pavle Harasemljuk.

13 Q. The house of whom?

14 A. Pavle Harasemljuk and Tonci. This Pavle is the uncle of Mladen

15 Mitrovic. It is his sister's son, Mladen.

16 Q. Is this the house to which those young women were taken on the

17 second occasion?

18 A. Yes, this.

19 Q. The small house that is set back from the road?

20 A. Yes.

21 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I would offer Prosecution Exhibit 308 for

22 identification.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

24 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 308 will be admitted.

Page 4856

1 MISS HOLLIS: Mr. Mujkanovic, while you were at Trnopolje camp did you see

2 any convoys being prepared and departing from the camp?

3 A. Yes, I did see.

4 Q. How often did you see this?

5 A. Many times.

6 Q. Did these convoys have escorts?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you recall what the escorts wore?

9 A. Mostly, they were there together, they were watching as they were

10 being loaded, one they were driving and pushing so that they would

11 pack more into the buses or trucks. They were watching that no man

12 would enter, they were walking around, they were laughing, and like

13 that.

14 Q. Sir, do you recall what those escorts wore?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What did they wear?

17 A. Ones -- some wore the camouflage uniforms and those who were in

18 charge of loading were wearing different things, either blue police

19 uniforms, some others had black shirts, still others had -- mostly it

20 was motley, all in all.

21 Q. Did you ever hear these escorts talking among themselves?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you hear them use any non-local dialects or accents?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What dialects or accents did you recognise?

Page 4857

1 A. They spoke Serbian dialect, around Uzice somewhere. They are called

2 Eras. They have a particular accent. They spoke Montenegrin, even

3 Russian.

4 Q. Uzice, that is located where?

5 A. In Serbia.

6 Q. While you were at Trnopolje camp, did you ever see Dule Tadic in the

7 camp?

8 A. Yes, I did see him.

9 Q. How many times did you see him there?

10 A. Twice.

11 Q. Do you recall the month that you first saw him, do you recall what

12 month it was?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What month was that?

15 A. It was the month of August, the date was 21st.

16 Q. What was happening at the camp on that date?

17 A. A convoy was starting.

18 Q. Where were you on that day when you saw Dule Tadic?

19 A. I was one of the inmates who was looking for an opportunity to get

20 into the convoy.

21 Q. So where were you located when you saw Dule Tadic on that day?

22 A. I was outside in front of the school building.

23 Q. Where was Dule Tadic when you first saw him that day?

24 A. On the corner in front of the store.

25 Q. What was he doing when you first saw him that day?

Page 4858

1 A. He was standing.

2 Q. Was he alone or was he with others?

3 A. No, he was with others.

4 Q. Did you recognise any of the other people he was with?

5 A. Part of them I did.

6 Q. Who did you recognise?

7 A. I recognised Goran Borovnica, I recognised Ratko Ilic, I recognised

8 two twin brothers, they were bodyguards, Major Kuruzovic's bodyguards.

9 Their last name is "Balaban". I recognised Mladen Mitrovic. I

10 recognised the son of Pero Curguz, otherwise Pero Curguz, as we call

11 it, was the chief of the Red Cross.

12 Q. When you saw Dule Tadic that day, how far away from you was he when

13 you first saw him?

14 A. I was standing next to a fence with a policeman of a Serbian

15 nationality. We were friends. I think we remained friends,

16 regardless of what happened. I helped this man. I will not say how or

17 what, and I think that he helped me too. So we were standing and

18 talking.

19 Q. How far away from you was Dule Tadic as you stood near the fence?

20 A. 10 to 15 metres, at the most.

21 Q. Do you recall what he was wearing that day?

22 A. At that time he was in civilian clothes.

23 Q. Do you recall if he had any facial hair that day when you saw him?

24 A. Yes, a beard but not an artistic beard, that means not a long beard.

25 He did have a beard.

Page 4859

1 Q. On that day when you saw him standing there with these other men,

2 did you have a clear view of him?

3 A. I did not understand the question very well.

4 Q. On this day when you saw Dule Tadic standing there with these other

5 men, did you have a clear view of him or did something obstruct your

6 view?

7 A. There was no obstruction. I saw clearly from various points,

8 profiles, as they were being loaded and he was turning around several

9 times.

10 Q. What did you see after you saw Dule Tadic standing there with the

11 other men? What happened after that?

12 A. The convoy started and they dispersed. Some of them got into cars

13 and they left. They followed the convoy.

14 Q. If I could have 203 played once again, please? Could you back it up,

15 please, and start at the school, at the beginning? If we could stop it

16 here, please? Sir, as you look at this picture on the screen, could

17 you tell us -- is there any way to hold it more still, thank you --

18 approximately where you were?

19 A. I cannot see anything.

20 Q. Could you try to hold that frame more still, please? Stop here.

21 Sir, do you see the frame with the store and the fence?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you see it well enough to tell us approximately where you were

24 standing?

25 A. I was standing near that tree.

Page 4860

1 Q. Were you inside the fenced area or on the other side of the fenced

2 area?

3 A. I was on the inside, that means to the right, and my friend was to

4 the left.

5 Q. As we are looking at the store area, can you tell us where Dule Tadic

6 was?

7 A. At the very corner.

8 Q. Thank you. We can close off the video, please. Sir, you indicated

9 that on that date you were talking with a Serb friend. What was your

10 Serb friend's position?

11 A. You mean what he was before the war or what he was then when we were

12 talking?

13 Q. What he was then when you were talking.

14 A. He was a policeman in a blue uniform.

15 Q. When you were talking with your Serb friend, did he tell you anything

16 about the official positions Dule Tadic held at that time?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. KAY: Can I raise a matter of law here, your Honour, as this is

19 something that I would say was clearly hearsay (and I am conscious of

20 the judgment that the Court has handed down today, I think, I only saw

21 it briefly this morning) that we would seek to exclude,

22 notwithstanding the judgment, that on the basis of the Rules as they

23 stand, because the evidence that is to be given falls within that

24 category that we would say its probative value is not such that it is

25 possible for the defendant to have a fair trial on this particular

Page 4861

1 matter.


3 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I would suggest that this Serb policeman would

4 be in a position to have the information that he imparted to this

5 witness, and that certainly it is relevant information as to what

6 official positions the accused may have held at this time. Therefore,

7 I would suggest that under 89(D) it would be admissible.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes. When we

9 return, I will give you a ruling on your objection, unless you want

10 to say anything more? Mr. Kay, do you have anything else to add?

11 MR. KAY: Yes, there is one matter. We have had no notice of this

12 evidence, so it is not a matter that the Defence have been able to

13 investigate or seek verification of. This is surprise evidence to us.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: How should you have received notice of this?

15 MR. KAY: In the form of a statement.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You are just saying it was not included in the

17 statement?

18 MR. KAY: Yes. It is fresh material that we are hearing for the first

19 time.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If it comes in, I am sure you will cross-examine

21 about why it was not in the statement and bring that to our attention,

22 but we will consider this. We will stand in recess for 20 minutes

23 and when we return we will give you a ruling.

24 (4.00 p.m.)

25 (Short Adjournment)

Page 4862

1 (4.20 p.m.)

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, would you continue, please?

3 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, you were going to rule on the Defence

4 objection?

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Oh, yes. How did we forget about that! The

6 objection is overruled. Once again, as we have indicated in the

7 decision, we do not have a rule that explicitly excludes hearsay.

8 Instead, the Chamber will focus on the probative value. We understand

9 that hearsay because of its very character may be unreliable, but it

10 is not always unreliable. So the objection will be overruled.

11 We consider that on cross-examination, Mr. Kay, you will be

12 able to enquire of the circumstances under which this information was

13 gathered as well as to enquire about its truthfulness, voluntariness

14 and all of the other concerns that at least the majority decision is

15 concerned about. So it is overruled. You may continue.

16 MR. KAY: Much obliged.

17 MISS HOLLIS: Mr. Mujkanovic, before the break I had asked you on this

18 occasion when you first saw Dule Tadic at Trnopolje if your Serb

19 friend had told you anything concerning Dule Tadic's official

20 positions at that time. Had your friend told you anything about the

21 official positions that Dule Tadic held at that time?

22 A. Yes, he did say something.

23 Q. Could you tell us, please, only that part of what he said which

24 indicates what official positions Dule Tadic held?

25 A. He told me that Dule Tadic was the secretary of the Local Commune of

Page 4863

1 Kozarac and also that he was a police commander, or something like

2 that.

3 Q. Mr. Mujkanovic, if we were to have a closed session, would you be

4 willing to give these the Judges the name of the individual who told

5 you these things about Dule Tadic's position?

6 A. Yes.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Of course, now that information would be given to

8 the Judges and the Defence as well ----


10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- as the accused?

11 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. [To the witness]: Would you also be

12 willing this a closed session to tell the Judges what positions your

13 friend had held in the local area?

14 A. Yes.

15 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, what I would propose is that I complete the

16 rest of my questions with this witness. Then I would ask that we go

17 into closed session for that information, and that then the Defence

18 would be allowed to cross-examine him on the specifics of that

19 incident, including the person's name and position in closed session.


21 MR. KAY: Yes. I am thinking of ways that I can just deal with as limited

22 material as possible within the closed session that does not cause the

23 name of the particular individual to be revealed.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then would we need a closed session? As I recall

25 the testimony and, admittedly, we have been now hearing testimony for

Page 4864

1 several months, I do recall that we have received evidence regarding

2 Mr. Tadic's position as secretary of the Local Commune. I do not

3 recall testimony as to whether he was a police Commander.

4 MR. KAY: We have not, no.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: There is no way for me to remember everything. So

6 there is really just one piece of it, perhaps, that will need further

7 enquiry. But are you suggesting a closed session?

8 MR. KAY: I believe the Prosecution feel happier revealing the name in

9 that way.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. We perhaps can handle that this evening.

11 MR. KAY: Yes.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Depending upon how long you have on direct and how

13 long you will have on cross, we can just go into closed and finish up.

14 Very good. Continue then.

15 MISS HOLLIS: Sir, you indicated that you saw Dule Tadic on two occasions

16 at Trnopolje camp. When was the second time that you saw him at the

17 camp?

18 A. The second time I saw him when I was about to leave and that was in

19 October, on 1st October, when we were off to Karlovac.

20 Q. On that occasion where were you when you saw Dule Tadic?

21 A. We were outside lined up in alphabetical order in front of the school

22 towards the road, facing the road.

23 Q. Where was Dule Tadic when you saw him on that day?

24 A. He was on the road.

25 Q. When you saw him what was he doing?

Page 4865

1 A. Walking up and down the road. He was just going to and fro. There

2 were very many soldiers on the road and civilians, but he mostly

3 walked up and down.

4 Q. When you saw him on that day, did you have a clear view of him or was

5 your view obstructed?

6 A. I saw him clearly.

7 Q. Do you recall what he was wearing on that occasion?

8 A. I do not remember what he was wearing because I was not thinking

9 about who wore what, but when I would get on to the bus to get away as

10 quickly as possible.

11 Q. Do you recall if on that occasion he had any facial hair?

12 A. Yes, a beard but not an artist's beard.

13 Q. You said earlier that by an "artist's beard" you mean a long beard?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When you saw him on that occasion, what did you see of him? Did you

16 have a full faced view, a profile view? What did you see?

17 A. I saw him both from the profile and I had a frontal view too, but I

18 did not pay much attention to him because I never -- it is enough for

19 me to look up into someone's face, not to look what somebody is

20 wearing, and at that moment all that my attention was riveted on was

21 how to get away from there, and I was really fed up. I was really

22 through with all that I went through there, and every moment of my

23 life was precious to me.

24 Q. If you can estimate, how far from you was Dule Tadic on that occasion

25 when you saw him?

Page 4866

1 A. About 20 to 25 metres.

2 Q. If we could once again have Prosecution Exhibit 203 played from the

3 beginning of that Exhibit? If we can stop the video, please, and if

4 we could back it up and go forward very slowly, please? Can we stop

5 the video? Would you please back it up very slowly so we can see the

6 edge of the school? Now forwards just a bit, please? Sir, looking at

7 this -- stop it, please -- video as it is shown here, is this clear

8 enough for you to be able to tell us where you were standing on 1st

9 October when you saw Dule Tadic?

10 A. When we were lined up in the alphabetical order, I was down there

11 nearer to the fence, perhaps five or six metres away from the fence,

12 and from the road I was about 20 to 25 metres away.

13 Q. When you say you were ----

14 A. Somewhere roughly where this fence is broken. I was in this

15 direction, except that we were facing the road.

16 Q. So, sir, when you talk about the fence, you are talking about the

17 fence that is in the foreground of this picture?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You were approximately how many metres behind that fence?

20 A. Not more than 20 metres.

21 Q. You were approximately 20 metres behind that fence from the end of

22 the fence, as we see it here?

23 A. Yes, that is what I said.

24 Q. Then Dule Tadic was on the road?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4867

1 Q. In front of that fence?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you. If we could shut that off, please?

4 A. I am sorry. I have never seen Dule Tadic enter the camp. I do not

5 want to be misinterpreted.

6 Q. So on both occasions that you saw Dule Tadic he was outside the

7 boundaries of the Trnopolje camp?

8 A. Both times, yes.

9 Q. Sir, at this time I would ask that you look around the courtroom and

10 see if Dule Tadic from Kozarac is in the courtroom?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Would you please point to him and tell us where he is sitting?

13 A. (Indicated) He has a blue suit, a tie, between two policemen.

14 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I would note a correct identification of the

15 accused.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, the record will reflect that the witness has

17 identified the accused.

18 MISS HOLLIS: Sir, when you left Trnopolje on 1st October, where did you

19 go?

20 A. I went to Karlovac, to Croatia, via Bosanski Novi.

21 Q. Mr. Mujkanovic, as a result of the attacks that occurred in Opstina

22 Prijedor and the camps that were established there, are any of your

23 family members missing or dead?

24 A. My family, the Mujkanovic family, in Kozarac is quite large. Those

25 dead, more than 40 have been killed, were killed, but very many are

Page 4868

1 missing. As for my close family, that is as I see them, my brothers,

2 sisters, my brother's children, my sister's children, 13 members of

3 the family. Some were killed. Some had their throat slit. Some I

4 buried myself. Some were buried by others.

5 Q. Sir, prior to the attack on Kozarac in May 1992, were you a member of

6 any anti-Serb military or paramilitary organisation?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Were you a member of any organised anti-Serb resistance group?

9 A. No, I never belonged to any organisation.

10 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, if we could go into closed session at this

11 time?

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are you completed with your direct?

13 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, do you want to proceed with

15 cross-examination, then see where we are and then handle it at the end

16 or, if you wish, we can go into closed session now.

17 MR. KAY: As a result of some instructions that have been given to me, I

18 prefer to hold cross-examination until tomorrow morning. I need to

19 obtain something from the office and prepare it for the Court in

20 readiness for cross-examination.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Does it relate to this piece of information?

22 MR. KAY: If we unhook the witness or do not have a translation, we can do

23 our form of approaching the Bench that we discussed a couple of days

24 ago.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, let me just enquire. Mr. Mujkanovic, do

Page 4869

1 you speak English? Do you understand English?


3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You neither speak nor understand English?


5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Miss Hollis, is that procedure

6 acceptable with you so that I can get a better understanding of what

7 Mr. Kay is intending to do if we reserve cross-examination?

8 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Very good. The witness, Mr. Mujkanovic, would

10 you please take your earphones off? We want to assure that what is

11 being said is not interpreted to the gallery nor to the public.

12 MR. KAY: Yes.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So, can that be accomplished? OK. Very good. So

14 nothing, the audio will not be going out, is that correct? That is

15 what the technicians tell me. Fine. This is our first time trying

16 this. You may proceed, Mr. Kay.

17 MISS HOLLIS: Perhaps, your Honour, we should also turn off the

18 headphones?

19 MR. KAY: Your Honour, during the break I have been given some information

20 which is helpful to the Defence in cross-examination and relates to

21 images of the defendant on a video film as it comes from a television

22 programme. This witness has not actually given that information in

23 evidence, but it is contained within his statement that I do have.

24 To be fair to the witness, I would like to show him that film which

25 contains an image of this defendant looking a particular way.

Page 4870

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You do not have that with you?

2 MR. KAY: No, we do not have it. It has to be dug out, so to speak, from

3 our video film archives. So, if the Prosecution move on to the next

4 witness and I deal with these matters tomorrow, it will be rather more

5 successful rather than breaking off halfway through cross-examination.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not understand why you do not have this

7 information with you to go forward at this time. Why did you not

8 bring it you with you?

9 MR. KAY: I was unaware of the information.


11 MR. KAY: Literally three minutes before I came into court during the

12 break when I was given certain information which triggered, certainly

13 amongst our recollections, the fact that this was right.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So you did not know about it? Someone else on the

15 team, I gather, knew about it, is that what you are telling me?

16 MR. KAY: No, not on the Defence team. The defendant, in fact, pointed

17 something out to me and it is ----

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: How much time do you think you will need for

19 cross-examination?

20 MR. KAY: Cross-examination will take about 25 to 30 minutes.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Then, Miss Hollis, we will excuse Mr.

22 Mujkanovic this evening. He should report back tomorrow at 10 a.m.

23 We will then begin cross-examination by Mr. Kay at that time.

24 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, there were some questions I had for him in

25 closed session concerning the identity of the individual and the

Page 4871

1 circumstances.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then why do we not begin in closed session tomorrow,

3 then you can continue with that and then when you complete your

4 direct, then we will begin with cross-examination and you will have

5 all of the video and everything you need ready to go forward ----

6 MR. KAY: Yes.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- you promise? OK. Very good. Ask the witness

8 to put his earphones on, please.

9 Mr. Mujkanovic, can you hear me?


11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I had asked that you take your earphones off because

12 the lawyers wished to discuss some technical matters with the Judges

13 out of your hearing. We are going to ask that you be excused, that

14 is, that you leave now, but that you return back at 10 a.m. tomorrow

15 morning. We will then continue with your testimony at that time. So

16 you are excused at this point, but you are still under an obligation

17 to return back tomorrow morning at 10 a.m. Do you understand that?

18 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you very much, sir. You are excused for the

20 evening.

21 (The witness withdrew)

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Who from the Prosecution team will be calling the

23 next witness?

24 MR. NIEMANN: I will, your Honour.


Page 4872

1 MR. NIEMANN: The Prosecution calls Mirsad Blazevic.


3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you take that oath that is being handed

4 to you, please?

5 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

6 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

7 (The witness was sworn)

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

9 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

10 Q. Sir, would you state your full name, please?

11 A. I am Mirsad Blazevic, born in Kozarac on 4th January 55.

12 Q. What part of Kozarac, sir, were you born?

13 A. Dera.

14 Q. Where did you go to do your primary school?

15 A. In the primary school in Kozarac.

16 Q. Did you attend secondary school in Prijedor?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you then live in Kozarac?

19 A. I lived in Kozarac until my 25th, more or less.

20 Q. Where did you go after that? Where did you live then?

21 A. I moved to the boundary between Trnopolje and Hrnici, the Local

22 Commune of Trnopolje.

23 Q. Sir, were you trained as a plumber?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you work up until the war in 1992 as a plumber ----

Page 4873

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. --- at a company in Prijedor?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you do your military service in 1974 to '75?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was that in Tito's guard of honour?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What is your nationality, sir?

9 A. Bosniak Muslim.

10 Q. Where were you on the date when Trnopolje was attacked?

11 A. Where I was on the day when Trnopolje was attacked?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. I was near my home, the neighbourhood.

14 Q. What date was this?

15 A. 9th July 1992.

16 Q. What happened on that day?

17 A. The Serb Army arrived and began gathering all men from 30 to 70

18 years.

19 Q. What happened once the men were gathered?

20 A. From all hamlets, they took us out on to the main road

21 Prijedor/Trnopolje, the lower road, the so-called old road. When I

22 arrived there and my group, I believe we were there last, and there

23 must have been around 200 people lined up in twos. When we were

24 rounded up, we started in the direction of Trnopolje and we were

25 ordered to sing Serb songs, chauvinistic songs.

Page 4874

1 Q. What happened after that, after your order to sing those songs and

2 you were gathered up, what happened to you?

3 A. We were driven, I do not know how far, perhaps 500 metres or

4 kilometres from the place where we had been gathered, and we were

5 stopped by a soldier, that is, he ordered us to halt. We turned, we

6 looked to the right and we turned to the left, and then some counting

7 started. There were seven or eight soldiers walking and counting,

8 each one to himself, and then he would stop by somebody and single him

9 out to that other side. When he had picked out as many as he needed,

10 he ordered us to go ahead. We started and then we heard a burst of

11 fire.

12 Q. Were you then loaded on to buses?

13 A. No, no, we continued on foot. We continued again from that place for

14 another 500 metres, more or less, and the column was again stopped,

15 again counted and again people were taken out of the row and they

16 began taking out even some people that I knew, even some of my

17 neighbours they were. Rifat Duracak's two sons, both under age, I

18 think that one was in the primary school, another one in the first

19 grade of the secondary school; Duracak, I believe he worked for

20 Autotransport, his close relative also worked for Autotransport; Esad

21 Mujagic, a driver for Autotransport; Latif Zujic, working for

22 Granja(?) in Prijedor and many others whom I could not all remember.

23 I could not give you now their full names but I do have a list.

24 Q. After these men were sorted out and taken away and the remainder of

25 the column was there, were you then taken to a place where you were

Page 4875

1 loaded on to buses?

2 A. No, they also started and they put those men on the same side as the

3 first ones. We were told to keep our heads down. Meanwhile, a soldier

4 with a red beret, I think he was from Gonjenica, and Duca Knezevic --

5 that is what they called him, "Duca", I do not know his real name --

6 they were stoned, they were totally drunk, and they started firing at

7 them from their automatic rifles. We were ordered to move forward.

8 We did.

9 Q. Where did you go?

10 A. And right when we came up to Trnopolje, one could already see the

11 camp, the column was stopped again and again they counted and took out

12 Husein Kahrimanovic, Dusan Knezevic did. In front of a small house

13 there were two bodies. On the right-hand side, the one that we were

14 following down, he ordered me to go to that house. Kahrimanovic

15 started for that house and he came up to those corpses. He was taken

16 aback, so he shouted. He came back. Duca kicked him with a foot in

17 the stomach or in the chest, somewhere there, and the chap cried out

18 something. Duca stepped backward for about two steps and fired the

19 whole burst of the automatic rifle and then ordered us to proceed

20 forward.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, would you ask the witness to speak a

22 little more slowly, please.

23 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.


25 MR. NIEMANN: Sir, would you mind speaking just a little more slowly

Page 4876

1 because it becomes too difficult to translate if you speak too fast.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. After these events had happened, after these men were sorted out and

4 some were taken away and others were beaten, were you eventually put

5 on a bus where you were taken to firstly the Omarska camp?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When you arrived at Omarska camp what happened?

8 A. There was no room and they returned us back to Keraterm.

9 Q. Were you then put into the camp at Keraterm?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When you were in the camp at Keraterm firstly how long were you in

12 that camp?

13 A. Well, I was there from 9th July to about 1st August, maybe a day or

14 two up or down. That is when the Keraterm camp was dissolved.

15 Q. When you were in that camp did you during that period of time see

16 people who were prisoners in the camp beaten and otherwise mistreated?

17 A. I did not quite understand. Could you please repeat the question?

18 Q. Yes. When you were in Keraterm camp and during the period of time

19 that you were there, did you see prisoners in the camp who were beaten

20 or otherwise mistreated?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you also during that period of time hear people being beaten or

23 otherwise mistreated?

24 A. Both seen with my own eyes and heard.

25 Q. Were you beaten at any stage while you were in the camp at Keraterm?

Page 4877

1 A. Also I was beaten. I was left without teeth. I only have three

2 teeth left.

3 Q. Were you beaten on one occasion or on a number of occasions?

4 A. Only once.

5 Q. Who beat you, do you know?

6 A. No.

7 Q. With what were you beaten?

8 A. They made a cordon when maybe it was about midnight when we arrived,

9 and as we were getting off the bus one by one we had to get out and

10 they were beating them. There were maybe 15 on each side and through

11 this cordon everybody had to pass, every prisoner, from 13 till, from

12 ages 13 to 80.

13 Q. When you left the camp at Keraterm where were you taken?

14 A. To Trnopolje.

15 Q. Was this to Trnopolje camp?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What date was it when you arrived at this camp in Trnopolje?

18 A. Around 1st August, I am not sure.

19 Q. When you went to Trnopolje camp where were you placed, where did you

20 stay?

21 A. At the stadium which they fenced with a wire the same day.

22 Q. Were you permitted or allowed to move in and about the camp at

23 Trnopolje?

24 A. No, only within the camp.

25 Q. Who was it that prevented you from doing this?

Page 4878

1 A. It was the order of the Camp Commander Kuruzovic.

2 Q. Were there guards at this camp?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did the guards patrol the perimeter of the camp?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were there guard stations or posts located around this camp at

7 Trnopolje?

8 A. Around the camp.

9 Q. Do you remember an incident in September 1992 when five men from

10 Hambarine were arrested?

11 A. I remember.

12 Q. Did this happen when you were in the camp at Trnopolje?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell us what happened on that occasion when those five men

15 were arrested?

16 A. Some of us were within the perimeter and some of us were within the

17 school building. At the time I was in front of the dome. It was a

18 cultural centre or youth centre and also a restaurant before the war.

19 There I saw the military police bringing five unknown men. They were

20 dirty, unkempt, unshaven.

21 Q. Who were these men brought to first?

22 A. These men were brought to and I think they were -- that is right,

23 Major Kuruzovic was not there. It was late afternoon, towards the

24 evening. They were turned over to the waiter. I cannot remember his

25 name now.

Page 4879

1 Q. This waiter that you cannot remember his name, was he a person local

2 to the Trnopolje area?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you know where he came from?

5 A. I think from Prijedor. There is a part of town that is called Urije.

6 Q. What was his function in the camp at Trnopolje, this man?

7 A. He was just a regular guard.

8 Q. When these men were turned over to him, what did he then do?

9 A. He took them to the Local Commune centre.

10 Q. Were they then taken into the commune centre?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you hear something when they were taken inside?

13 A. Yes, we heard, whoever was outside we heard them screaming and we

14 heard the blows and they were begging for mercy.

15 Q. How long did this go on for?

16 A. About an hour.

17 Q. Then what happened?

18 A. After about an hour they were taken out hands tied.

19 Q. How were their hands tied?

20 A. In the back, behind their backs.

21 Q. What were they tied with, could you see?

22 A. I think handcuffs, police handcuffs.

23 Q. Did you see their condition when they were brought out, the

24 condition of their bodies?

25 A. Yes. They were in a very severe situation. They were all smeared

Page 4880

1 with blood.

2 Q. Where were they taken?

3 A. Towards the fish farm beyond the railway station.

4 Q. Did you then subsequently lose sight of these men?

5 A. Yes, we heard bursts of fire. They were not taken far from the camp.

6 Q. How long after you lost sight of the men did you hear the sound of

7 the bursts of fire?

8 A. Approximately 15 minutes to half an hour.

9 Q. Just to clarify that, by "bursts of fire" you mean rifle fire?

10 A. Yes, automatic rifles.

11 Q. What was the next thing to happen after you heard that sound?

12 A. They came back, I think his name is Mladen, the waiter, and the other

13 two men whom I did not know, and I saw in front of the entrance of the

14 command, the Red Cross, he was washing the blood from his knee. That

15 is what I saw and others saw too.

16 Q. When you say "they come back", are you talking about the guards and

17 the men, the five men that were taken, or are you just talking about

18 the guards?

19 A. Only guards. We never found out anything about the men.

20 Q. Did you know the nationality or ethnic background of these men that

21 were taken?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What was that?

24 A. Muslims. They were from Hambarine.

25 Q. Do you know the accused in these proceedings Dule Tadic?

Page 4881

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. How is it that you know him?

3 A. I know him naturally because I lived there for a long time, so I know

4 him.

5 Q. You lived in the area of Kozarac?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you know of him when you went to school in Kozarac?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you see him at school?

10 A. I would see in front of his house, and he was walking around Kozarac.

11 Everybody knew him in Kozarac. He was an athlete and his brothers

12 were athletes too.

13 Q. Did you know where he lived in Kozarac?

14 A. Yes, as you get into Kozarac on the right-hand side.

15 Q. Do you know whether he was married?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you know his wife's family?

18 A. Yes, mostly the father.

19 Q. What was his name?

20 A. His nickname Baja Vidovic.

21 Q. During the time that you lived in the Trnopolje/Kozarac area, did you

22 see the accused Dule Tadic on a number of occasions, rarely or was it

23 often?

24 A. Very rarely because I went to Kozarac seldom. I was going to

25 Prijedor much more.

Page 4882

1 Q. During the period of time that you were staying in the Trnopolje

2 camp, did you ever have an occasion when you saw Dule Tadic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When was this? Can you remember what month it was?

5 A. I think somewhere in August, end of August approximately.

6 Q. Where did you see him?

7 A. I saw him around the corner. There were fences. There were metal

8 fences around the school and I saw him coming out with another

9 uniformed man in a multi-coloured camouflage uniform. He was entering

10 into the premises of the Red Cross and the command quarters where

11 Kuruzovic Slabodan was.

12 Q. Did you have a good view of Dule Tadic when you saw him on this

13 occasion?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you then see him on a previous occasion when you were still

16 staying in the Trnopolje camp?

17 A. I only saw him once in the Trnopolje camp.

18 Q. Did you see him outside of the Trnopolje camp at another place?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Where was that place?

21 A. In Kozarac near the elementary school and intersection of the Banja

22 Luka/Prijedor old road.

23 Q. Do you remember when this was, what time of the month?

24 A. Maybe around the middle of September.

25 Q. What were you doing at this place at that time?

Page 4883

1 A. I was going to forced labour.

2 Q. Who took you to this forced labour?

3 A. Mostly the guards of the Trnopolje camp took people.

4 Q. How were you taken?

5 A. They came, the ones who, for instance, knew me, Edem Demirovic(?),

6 Aziz Mujkanovic, Fikret Hujic, to fix the running water for the camp.

7 Q. How did you get to Kozarac where you saw Dule Tadic?

8 A. It was in a truck of my former company.

9 Q. Were there guards with you on this truck?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was this truck stopped?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who stopped the truck?

14 A. Dule Tadic.

15 Q. Can you tell us as accurately as possible where it was that the truck

16 was stopped?

17 A. Well, it was stopped at the very school, at that intersection, and he

18 asked us where we were going and what we were doing.

19 Q. When you say "he asked us", did he ask you or did he ask the guards

20 that were with you?

21 A. He asked the guards that were guarding us.

22 Q. What did they say?

23 A. There was a policeman with us. I think he was a Reserve Policeman as

24 far as I know, I do not think he was an active policeman, from the

25 village of Sajaci near Trnopolje. He was like in charge. He was the

Page 4884

1 commander of this guard that was guarding us. He immediately sprung

2 to action with Tadic to explain what we were supposed to do, and Tadic

3 ordered him to unload the supplies that we had. We had the water

4 measuring instruments that count the water expenditure, and we were

5 taking these instruments out of the houses that were destroyed and

6 burnt up, in other words, around the entire Kozarac and the

7 surrounding villages.

8 Q. These were water meters, were they, that you were collecting?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When Tadic ordered you, ordered, I should say, the Reserve Policeman

11 that was with you to unload these water meters, what did the Reserve

12 Policeman say to Tadic?

13 A. He started to refuse that he, that it was not his, that it was my

14 company's charge and that Tadic was not in charge there.

15 Q. What happened then?

16 A. In the meantime I was taking out a water meter from a store called

17 Zema and I encountered Boca, Bosko was his name, his neighbour. He

18 told me, because Bosko must have heard this, not to argue with Tadic

19 because he was the Chief Commander of the Special Police Force and not

20 to get into conflict with him, just obey the order, he said to one of

21 the guards that was escorting me.

22 Q. What happened then?

23 A. They unloaded all the water meters.

24 Q. Was Dule Tadic armed on this occasion?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4885

1 Q. With what was he armed?

2 A. He had an automatic rifle with two ----

3 Q. During the course of this discussion with the guards that were on

4 your truck, did Dule Tadic do anything with this rifle that he had?

5 A. No.

6 Q. After the meters were unloaded, what did you do then?

7 A. We started going back to the camp.

8 Q. While the unloading was taking place, did you see anything else

9 happen?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What did you see?

12 A. I saw a tractor going down Kozarac from the Mrakovica direction

13 loaded with logs and with home furniture. Dule Tadic stopped in front

14 of the tractor and forced it to stop. There were two soldiers in the

15 tractor and one on top of the furniture. They were all carrying

16 automatic rifles. Dule Tadic ordered them to unload all the things

17 that they were carrying. The Serbs started to resist as if they did

18 not want, and I heard with my own ears him say: "Nothing can leave

19 Kozarac, not a piece of a match. I liberated Kozarac and nobody is

20 going to take anything out of Kozarac, only over my dead body." I did

21 not hear anything else. We got back on to the truck and we went back

22 to the camp.

23 Q. On this occasion when you saw Dule Tadic how was he dressed?

24 A. He had the camouflage multi-coloured military uniform, and he was

25 trimmed, his hair was trimmed.

Page 4886

1 Q. Did he have any other arms on his possession, apart from the

2 automatic rifle you have spoken of?

3 A. I did not see. I do not remember.

4 Q. Did you see or can you remember whether or not he was wearing any

5 head wear?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Apart from the soldier with the name Boca, did you see Dule Tadic

8 with anyone else there on that occasion?

9 A. You mean on the day when I saw him in Kozarac or until my leaving

10 Prijedor?

11 Q. The day when you saw him in Kozarac, was he with anyone else that you

12 saw?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And whom was he with?

15 A. He was with a professional policeman of the civilian police whose

16 name is Babic, son of Dusan Babic. The police were in the elementary

17 school and I saw Babic in front of the school building and the other

18 policemen too.

19 Q. Earlier in your evidence you spoke of seeing Tadic Dule Tadic at the

20 camp in Trnopolje in September. When you saw him on that occasion do

21 you recall how he was dressed?

22 A. Also the multi-coloured camouflage uniform.

23 Q. On that occasion did you see whether or not he was carrying any arms?

24 A. An automatic rifle.

25 Q. When were you released from Trnopolje camp?

Page 4887

1 A. Exactly on October 1st 1992.

2 Q. Do you remember the names of any of the guards who were guarding the

3 camp at Trnopolje?

4 A. A very small number.

5 Q. Are you able to tell us the names of any of those guards?

6 A. Yes, Pero Jauz, Gavro Gajic, Mladen that waiter I cannot remember his

7 name but I know his first name was Mladen. Right now I cannot name

8 any others.

9 Q. Did you know any guards with the name Karajica?

10 A. Yes, I knew of him but I did not see him. You mean the name? Do you

11 have a name?

12 Q. Yes, I am asking you whether you knew a guard there that had the name

13 Karajica?

14 A. I cannot remember.

15 Q. Would you now, please, look around the courtroom for me and can you

16 tell me if you see the person that you know and recognise as Dule

17 Tadic?

18 A. (Indicated).

19 Q. You pointed to that person. Would you please describe for the

20 transcript where he is seated and how he is dressed?

21 A. Yes, I can. He is sitting between two policemen and he is looking me

22 in the eyes and he has a, you know, a black suit and a tie and a

23 shirt.

24 Q. Might the record reflect, your Honour?

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, the record will reflect that the witness

Page 4888

1 identified the accused.

2 MR. NIEMANN: I have no further questions, your Honour.

3 THE WITNESS: I did not understand you. I did not hear well?

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann just said that he had no further

5 questions. We will adjourn until tomorrow at 10 a.m. When we begin

6 tomorrow at 10 a.m. we will be in closed session. Miss Hollis, you

7 will continue with Mr. Mujkanovic and then there will be

8 cross-examination. Then we will continue with this witness in open

9 session or even continue with Mr. Mujkanovic in open session when we

10 resolve that one matter. Thank you. We will adjourn until tomorrow at

11 10 a.m.

12 (5.30 p.m.).

13 (The court adjourned until the following day).